Transcript
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Welcome back to Shameless Potpourri.
欢迎回到无耻教皇党。
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I'm Joe Heschmeyer, and I wanna ask three questions today about Noah's Ark and the Great Flood.
我是 Joe Heschmeyer,今天我想就挪亚方舟和大洪水问三个问题。
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Question number one: Did it really happen, or is it just a retelling of older Babylonian stories?
第一个问题:这件事真的发生过吗,还是只是对更早的巴比伦故事的复述?
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Question number two: If it did really happen, was it a global flood or a local or regional flood?
第二个问题:如果真的发生过,那是一次全球性的洪水,还是一次局部或区域性的洪水?
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And finally, question three: Are we missing the point of the story in asking these questions?
最后,第三个问题:我们这样问,会不会反而错过了这个故事的重点?
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Now, if you like videos like this, I encourage you to like, subscribe, comment, all that jazz.
现在,如果你喜欢这样的视频,我鼓励你点赞、订阅、评论,诸如此类。
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If you really like videos like this, I encourage you to join my Patreon and shamelessjoe.com.
如果你真的很喜欢这样的视频,我鼓励你加入我的 Patreon 和 shamelessjoe.com。
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If you hate videos like this, I'm really sorry.
如果你讨厌这样的视频,我真的很抱歉。
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I'm doing what I can.
我已经尽力了。
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All right, question number one: Is the story of Noah's Ark historical, or is it just a retelling of ancient Babylonian myths?
好,第一个问题:挪亚方舟的故事是历史事实吗,还是只是对古代巴比伦神话的复述?
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The case for it being just a myth is that we find similar versions of the Great Flood story in things like the Epic of Gilgamesh, and scholars date these texts to earlier than they date the Book of Genesis.
认为这只是个神话的理由是,我们在《吉尔伽美什史诗》之类的作品里也找到了类似的大洪水故事,而且学者把这些文本的成书时间定得比创世记还早。
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And so, the argument goes, the author of Genesis just reworked these pagan stories and replaced their gods with the God of Israel.
所以,这种观点认为,创世记的作者只是把这些异教故事重新加工了一下,把里面的众神换成了以色列的神。
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Now, that could lead to a complicated debate on the dating and authorship of the Book of Genesis, but I suggest we just leave all of that aside because the true story is a bit more complicated.
这可能会引出一场关于创世记成书年代和作者是谁的复杂争论,但我建议我们先把这些都放一边,因为真实情况要复杂一点。
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Because it's not just in Gilgamesh and Genesis that we find an account of the Great Flood.
因为我们发现大洪水的记载,并不只出现在《吉尔伽美什史诗》和创世记里。
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As the archaeologist John Henderson explains, we actually find similar Great Flood stories around the world.
正如考古学家 John Henderson 解释的那样,我们其实在世界各地都能找到类似的大洪水故事。
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I think there's no doubt that almost every culture in the world has a flood myth, a deluge story, because we developed as a species within this period of rising sea level.
我认为毫无疑问,世界上几乎每一种文化都有洪水神话,也就是大洪水的故事,因为我们这个物种的发展,正处在海平面上升的那个时期。
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So we find flood narratives everywhere from India to the New World, and many of them, like the Greek myth of Deucalion, follow the same basic pattern.
所以,从印度到新大陆,到处都有洪水叙事,而且其中很多,比如希腊的杜卡利翁神话,都遵循同一种基本模式。
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The Earth was dominated by man's greed, and peace had completely abandoned the Earth.
大地被人的贪婪所支配,和平也已经彻底离开了大地。
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Zeus, enraged, took drastic action.
宙斯大怒,采取了极端行动。
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He summoned Poseidon to Olympus.
他把波塞冬召到奥林匹斯山。
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The supreme god asked his brother to flood the planet, exterminating all men.
至高的神请求他的兄弟用洪水淹没整个世界,消灭所有人类。
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Okay, so humanity is wiped out, save for Deucalion and his family.
好,所以,人类被消灭殆尽,只有杜卡利翁和他的家人幸存。
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Now, there's actually different versions even of this Greek myth, but in at least some of them, the pious Deucalion is spared, so he and his family board a boat with pairs of every kind of animal to be saved from the flood.
现在,其实就连这个希腊神话也有不同版本,但至少在其中一些版本里,虔诚的杜卡利翁得以幸免,所以他和家人登上一艘船,并带上各类动物各一对,从洪水中得救。
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The accounts are so obviously similar that St. Justin Martyr explicitly described Deucalion as just a Greek name for Noah back in the 100s.
这些记载相似得实在太明显了,以至于早在2世纪,圣游斯丁殉道者就明确说过,「杜卡利翁」只不过是「挪亚」的一个希腊名字。
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Now, amongst the different versions of the Great Flood story told throughout the ancient world, the Mesopotamian ones, the ones from Babylon, are the most important because they're the ones scholars believe are the oldest.
在整个古代世界流传的各种大洪水故事里,美索不达米亚的、也就是巴比伦的版本最重要,因为学者认为它们最古老。
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But as the archaeologist Tikva Frymer-Kensky explains, we actually have records of at least three different Babylonian stories of a great flood.
但正如考古学家 Tikva Frymer-Kensky 所解释的,我们其实至少有三种不同的巴比伦大洪水故事的记录。
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And like the story of Noah's Ark, they share some striking details with the biblical account, despite some divergences.
它们像挪亚方舟的故事一样,尽管也有一些不同,却和圣经记载共享一些非常醒目的细节。
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For instance, animals are placed in an ark, the ark lands on a mountain, birds are sent forth to see if the waters have receded.
比如,动物被放进方舟里,方舟停在一座山上,还放出鸟去看看水退了没有。
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Despite the differences then, she refers to these as different retellings of an essentially identical flood tradition.
所以,尽管存在差异,她仍把这些称为对一个本质上相同的洪水传统的不同复述。
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Now, I would suggest that leaves us with basically three ways of accounting for this evidence.
现在,我的建议是,这些证据大体上让我们只能用三种方式来解释。
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One is to say, you know, floods are a recurring thing.
一种说法是,你知道,洪水是反复发生的事情。
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Floods are a recurring thing.
洪水是反复发生的事情。
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Natural disasters were seen as evidence of divine disfavor, so it's not shocking to imagine different cultures coming up with different stories involving floods.
自然灾害被看作是神不喜悦的证据,所以想象不同文化各自编出涉及洪水的不同故事,并不令人意外。
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The movie Twister, it's not a retelling of The Wizard of Oz, for instance.
比如电影《龙卷风》,它并不是在复述《绿野仙踪》。
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It's just tapping into the same basic human fascination with and fear of tornadoes.
它只是借用了人类对龙卷风这种东西的那种基本迷恋和恐惧。
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Now, I think that explains some of the stories we see.
我觉得这能解释我们看到的一部分故事。
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I don't think that works completely.
我觉得这并不能完全说得通。
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I don't think it can account for the number of details we find in common in some of these ancient accounts.
我不觉得它能解释为什么一些古代记载里有那么多共同的细节。
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So it's gonna get you some similar stories, but it's not gonna get you essentially identical ones.
它确实能让你得到一些相似的故事,但不太可能让你得到本质上几乎一模一样的故事。
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Okay, so the second theory is that everyone is copying the oldest story, perhaps the Atrahasis Epic, and retelling it in ways that make sense in their own culture, in their own region, or else they're copying those copies.
好,那第二种理论是,所有人都在抄最古老的那个故事,可能是《阿特拉哈西斯史诗》,然后用符合自己文化、自己地区的方式把它重新讲一遍,或者他们是在抄那些抄本。
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There can be some truth to that.
这里面确实可能有一些道理。
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As Pope Pius XII points out, it's perfectly possible to believe both that the ancient sacred writers have taken things from popular narrations and that they did so with the help of divine inspiration, through which they were rendered immune from any error in compiling and transmitting these sacred stories.
正如教宗庇护十二世指出的,我们完全可以同时相信两件事:古代的圣经作者从民间流行的叙述中取材,并且他们是在神的默示之下这样做的;借着这种默示,他们在编纂和传递这些神圣故事时得以免于任何错误。
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Well, the third theory is just that these various flood myths exist because there really was a great flood.
第三种理论则是,这些不同的洪水神话之所以存在,就是因为确实发生过一场大洪水。
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In other words, we find real and fictional accounts of the Great Flood for the same reason that we find real and fictional accounts of the Civil War: because it's a thing that happened.
换句话说,我们之所以既能找到关于大洪水的真实记载,也能找到虚构的记载,原因和我们之所以既能找到关于内战的真实记载,也能找到虚构的记载是一样的:因为那是确实发生过的事。
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It was a traumatic event people wanted to talk about for ages afterwards that maybe they processed through art and storytelling.
那是一个创伤性的事件,人们在很久之后仍想谈论它,也许他们就通过艺术和讲故事的方式来消化它。
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Well, the fact is, I think all three of these theories might be true.
但事实是,我觉得这三种理论可能都是真的。
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They're not actually incompatible.
它们其实并不互相矛盾。
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It's perfectly possible to believe that floods are a regular phenomenon, people like to talk about them, that there really was a great flood in which God spared Noah and his family, they ended up on a mountain, and that the author of Genesis is drawing upon earlier, partially true tellings of that Great Flood story and presenting his own divinely inspired version.
我们完全可以相信:洪水本来就是一种常见现象,人们喜欢谈论它;也确实发生过一场大洪水,神在其中保全了挪亚和他的家人,他们最后到了山上;而创世记的作者是在引用更早一些、部分真实的大洪水讲述,并呈现出他自己在神的默示下写成的版本。
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We even have biblical precedent for this.
我们甚至在圣经里也有先例。
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In 2 Peter 2, St. Peter mentions that God casts the fallen angels into Tartarus.
在彼得后书二章里,圣彼得提到神把犯罪的天使丢在地狱里。
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Now, he's describing an event recorded in the Old Testament, the fall of Satan, but he is employing the language of Greek mythology to do so.
他在描述旧约里记载的一件事,也就是撒但的堕落,但他用了希腊神话的语言来表达。
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That's where the idea of Tartarus comes from.
「塔耳塔罗斯」这个概念就是从那里来的。
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So the author of Genesis might be doing something similar with the language and framing of Babylonian mythology.
所以,创世记的作者也可能在巴比伦神话的语言和叙事框架上做了类似的事。
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Now, all of that is to say that I think there are good reasons to believe that the Great Flood really did happen, even if a lot of the language used to describe it is mythological language.
总之,我认为我们有充分的理由相信,大洪水确实发生过,即便用来描述它的很多语言是神话性的表达。
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But just how great was this Great Flood?
但这场「大洪水」到底有多「大」呢?
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That's question two.
这就是第二个问题。
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Growing up, I believed the Great Flood had to be understood as global.
我从小长大时一直相信,大洪水必须理解为全球性的。
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After all, doesn't the Bible say, The waters prevailed so mightily upon the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered?And that it wiped out every living thing that was upon the face of the ground?
毕竟,圣经不是说过:「水势在地上甚大,天下的高山都淹没了。」还说它把地面上的一切活物都除灭了吗?
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Now, that raises some practical difficulties.
这就带来了一些实际上的困难。
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Things like how did Noah keep polar bears and penguins and the like alive on the ark for forty days?
比如,挪亚怎么在方舟上让北极熊、企鹅之类的动物活过四十天?
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Or how was there enough water on the planet to flood the entire world, including the highest mountains, under fifteen cubits?
或者,地球上怎么会有足够的水,把整个世界都淹没,连最高的山也在十五肘之下?
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That's about twenty-five feet of water.
那大概是25英尺的水深。
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And if there was that much flooding over the entire earth, where did all that floodwater go afterwards?
而且如果整个地球都被淹成那样,后来这些洪水又去了哪里?
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Now look, you can write all those difficulties off as miracles.
你看,这些困难你都可以当成神迹一笔带过。
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Obviously, God can do whatever he wants to do.
显然,神想做什么就能做什么。
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But I think there's a bigger problem with the way I'd heard this story as a kid, and the problem is this the Bible doesn't actually say that the flood covered the entire earth.
但我觉得,我小时候听到的这种讲法有一个更大的问题:问题在于,圣经其实并没有说洪水覆盖了整个地球。
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I know it says it in many English Bibles, but what it actually says is that it covered the whole land.
我知道很多英文圣经是这么翻的,但它实际说的是,洪水覆盖了整个土地。
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The Hebrew word there is just eretz, which means land.
那里用的希伯来词就是 eretz,意思是「土地」。
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It's the word used for the Holy Land, for instance.
比如说,这个词也用来指应许之地。
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And even kol ha'arets, translated in many Bibles as the whole earth, it means the whole land.
甚至连 kol ha'arets,在很多圣经里被译为「全地」,它的意思也是「全境」,也就是整片土地。
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In Genesis thirteen, Abraham says to Lot that the whole land, kol ha'arets, is before him because they're standing before the Jordan Valley.
在创世记十三章里,亚伯拉罕对罗得说整片土地,也就是 kol ha'arets,都在他面前,因为他们当时站在约旦河谷前。
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But he's not saying that Lot is standing before the entire planet.
但他并不是在说罗得站在整个星球面前。
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He means the land before them, the whole area they're looking at, not all of planet Earth.
他指的是他们面前的那片土地,也就是他们所看到的整片区域,而不是整个地球。
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So the Bible doesn't actually say that the flood was global, but there are still people who insist that it must be read as if it did.
所以,圣经其实并没有说洪水是全球性的,但仍然有人坚持必须按全球性来解读。
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Answers in Genesis, for instance, argues that the flood must be understood as global because Genesis refers to the face of the earth, eretz, and the face of the whole earth, kol ha'arets, being flooded.
比如,Answers in Genesis 认为洪水必须理解为全球性的,因为创世记提到地的表面,也就是 eretz,以及全地的表面,也就是 kol ha'arets,被洪水淹没。
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But in the same article, they admit that eretz also means ground, land, soil, or country.
但在同一篇文章里,他们也承认 eretz 也可以表示地面、土地、土壤,或国家。
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So why insist on reading it as planet here?
那为什么要坚持在这里把它读成「整个星球」呢?
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Well, they claim that it must mean the whole planet here because in the flood narrative, the context doesn't indicate a geographically limited area.
他们说,这里必须指整个星球,因为在洪水叙事里,上下文并没有表明它只限定在某个地理范围里。
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In other words, they're just assuming it means the whole planet because the text doesn't explicitly say how large the land is that got flooded.
换句话说,他们只是因为文本没有明确说被淹的那片「土地」有多大,就假定它指的是整个星球。
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So the Bible says the whole land got flooded, and Answers in Genesis assumes that means all of planet Earth because we don't know how much land Genesis seven is referencing.
所以,圣经说「全地」被淹了,而 Answers in Genesis 就假定这意味着整个地球,因为我们不知道创世记七章提到的到底是多少土地。
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But there's simply no reason to accept that reading as the only possible reading of Genesis seven, because the Hebrew doesn't require that, and also because there are plenty of times in which the Bible sounds like it's saying the whole world when it's really only talking about a small portion of the world.
但完全没有理由把这种读法当成创世记七章唯一可能的读法,因为希伯来文并不要求那样理解,而且圣经里也有很多地方,听起来像是在说「全世界」,其实只是在说世界的一小部分。
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For instance, in Acts, chapter two, St. Luke says that there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
比如在使徒行传第二章里,圣路加说:「那时,有虔诚的犹太人从天下各国来,住在耶路撒冷。」
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Now, that language actually sounds much more clearly like we're going to be dealing with the entire planet rather than a vague expression like the whole land.
这种说法其实听起来更明显像是在讲整个星球,而不是像「全地」那样的模糊表达。
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And yet even here, there weren't literally people from every nation under heaven.
但即便在这里,也不是真的字面意义上「天下各国」的人都在场。
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We know this partly because Luke actually records a list of who was present in verses nine to eleven, and it's people from across and around the Roman Empire.
我们部分知道这一点,是因为路加在9节到11节实际列出了在场的人有哪些,是来自罗马帝国各地以及周边的人。
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No one from the New World showed up at Pentecost, for instance.
比如说,五旬节那天没有新大陆的人来。
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But neither do we hear of people from places like Ethiopia or India or Spain, nations which we know the biblical authors like St. Luke knew about because those places are referenced elsewhere in the Bible.
但我们也没有听说有来自埃塞俄比亚、印度或西班牙的人,而我们知道圣经作者,比如圣路加,是知道这些地方的,因为圣经其他地方也提到过。
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So it's not that St. Luke made a mistake here, as if he thought every nation was present there and we know better today.
所以,这并不是圣路加在这里犯了错,好像他以为每个国家都有人在场,而我们今天知道得更清楚。
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No, Luke knew that not literally every nation was there.
不是的,路加知道并不是字面意义上的每个国家都在场。
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He doesn't literally mean the entire world.
他并不是字面意义上指整个世界。
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Modern readers are simply taking these texts in a stiffly literal way that isn't how ancient authors tended to write.
现代读者只是用一种死板的字面方式在读这些文本,而这并不是古代作者通常的写作方式。
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And the problem is we're doing the same thing when we demand that a flood over the entire land must have covered all of planet Earth instead of, say, the entire region.
问题是,当我们坚持认为「全地的洪水」就必须覆盖整个地球,而不是比如说覆盖整个地区时,我们其实也在做同样的事情。
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Now, to be clear, I'm not demanding that you read the Great Flood as a strictly regional event.
先说明一下,我并不是要求你把大洪水读成一个严格意义上的区域性事件。
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I'm simply pointing out that the arguments for it being global are often quite weak and that demanding a global interpretation creates a number of difficulties in interpreting the text.
我只是指出,认为它必然是全球性的那些论证往往相当薄弱,而且强行要求全球性的解释,会在解读文本时制造出一堆困难。
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So please just don't force your personal reading on others if you are someone who believes it was a global flood.
所以,如果你相信那是一场全球性的洪水,也请不要把你个人的读法强加给别人。
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For myself, I would suggest that the debate about the extent of the flood geographically risks just missing the point entirely.
至于我自己,我会说,关于洪水在地理范围上到底有多大这场争论,很可能完全偏离重点。
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And this is the third question I want to explore, because it would be like reading the story of the Prodigal Son and focusing all of your attention on trying to figure out what percentage of the property would have gone to the younger son by right.
这就是我想探讨的第三个问题,因为这就像是在读浪子回头的故事时,把全部注意力都放在试图算清楚按理来说小儿子应该分到家产的百分之多少。
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Is he getting fifty percent or less?
他是拿到50%还是更少?
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That's not the point of the story.
这根本不是这个故事的重点。
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As St. Paul said of the Exodus, these things were written for our instruction.
正如圣保罗谈到出埃及的时候所说,这些事被写下来是为了教导我们。
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In other words, whenever we're reading of a past event in the Bible, we don't just want to know what happened, but what am I meant to learn from this?
换句话说,每当我们在圣经里读到过去发生的一件事,我们不只是想知道发生了什么,也要问:我应该从中学到什么?
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So how did the early Christians understand the point of the story of Noah?
那么,早期的基督徒是怎么理解挪亚这个故事的重点的呢?
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Three ways.
三个方面。
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First, it's a foreshadowing of the final judgment.
第一,这是对最后审判的预表。
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Jesus treats it this way in Matthew twenty-four.
耶稣在马太福音二十四章里就是这样看待它的。
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At some point, Jesus is going to return, and God will wipe out the old world of sin, just as he did in the days of Noah.
在某个时候,耶稣会再来,神会除灭这个充满罪的旧世界,就像他在挪亚的日子所做的一样。
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Only the righteous will be left behind.
只有义人会被留下。
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Second, the wood of the ark passing through the waters of the flood is a foreshadowing of the saving power of the cross and baptism.
第二,方舟的木头穿过洪水的水,是对十字架和洗礼之拯救大能的预表。
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St. Augustine taught that Noah, with his family, is saved by water and wood, as the family of Christ is saved by baptism, as representing the suffering of the cross.
圣奥古斯丁教导说,挪亚和他的家人是借着水和木头得救的;同样,基督的家人借着洗礼得救,而洗礼代表着十字架的受苦。
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For some of you, that might sound like a stretch, but that actually lines up perfectly with how St. Peter describes the ark in the New Testament.
对你们当中一些人来说,这听起来可能有点牵强,但这其实完全符合新约里圣彼得描述方舟的方式。
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He said that in the ark, a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
他说:「当时进入方舟,借着水得救的不多,只有八个人。」
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And then he adds, Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you.
然后他又补充说:「这水所表明的洗礼,现在借着耶稣基督复活也拯救你们;」
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So it's through baptism that we're united with Jesus Christ, who died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God.
所以,我们是借着洗礼与耶稣基督联合的;他「因基督也曾一次为罪受苦,就是义的代替不义的,为要引我们到神面前」。
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Or as St. Paul puts it, Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
或者用圣保罗的话说:「岂不知我们这受洗归入基督耶稣的人,是受洗归入他的死吗?」
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In other words, we are united with the wood of the cross through the waters of baptism.And just as the old world of unrighteousness was destroyed in the flood, so too we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death.
换句话说,我们借着洗礼的水与十字架的木头联合。而且正如那不义的旧世界在洪水中被毁灭一样,「所以我们借着洗礼归入死,和他一同埋葬」。
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So this Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
「原是叫我们一举一动有新生的样式,像基督借着父的荣耀从死里复活一样。」
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Our old unrighteous self dies in the waters of baptism and we are reborn to new life through union with the cross of Christ.
我们旧的、不义的自我在洗礼的水里死去,我们也借着与基督的十字架联合而重生,进入新生命。
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Third, the ark represents the church.
第三,方舟代表教会。
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St. Cyprian of Carthage famously warned that you can no more be saved outside the church than you could have escaped destruction if you were outside of the ark when the flood came.
迦太基的圣居普良有一句很有名的警告:你在教会之外得救的可能性,不会比洪水来临时你在方舟外还能逃过毁灭更大。
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Or in the words of St. Jerome, a church father that I know is beloved by many Protestants, in his letter to Pope Damasus in three seventy-seven, quote, my words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross.
或者用圣耶柔米的话来说,他是一位我知道很多新教徒都很喜爱的教父;他在377年写给教宗达玛苏的信里说,引文:我的话是对那位渔夫继承人说的,对十字架的门徒说的。
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As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter.
我不跟随任何领袖,唯独跟随基督;因此,我也只与您的有福之尊荣共融,也就是与彼得的座位共融。
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For this I know is the rock on which the church is built.
因为我知道,这就是教会建造在其上的磐石。
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This is the house where alone the Paschal Lamb can be rightly eaten.
这就是那唯一可以按理吃逾越节羊羔的家。
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This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails, end quote.
这就是挪亚的方舟;不在其中的人,当洪水上涨时就必灭亡。引文结束。
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My fear is this.
我担心的是这个。
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If we spend our time fighting about the historical and geographical details of the great flood, about Noah's ark, we risk missing the deeper spiritual points, the instruction we are meant to take.
如果我们把时间都花在争论大洪水、挪亚方舟在历史和地理细节上的问题,我们就可能错过更深的属灵重点,也就是我们本该领受的教导。
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And I think that instruction is this.
我认为那教导就是这个。
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Someday, maybe a long time from now, maybe any moment, God will come and set the world aright again.
总有一天,可能很久以后,也可能就在任何一刻,神会再来,让世界重新归正。
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And on that day, we want to be left behind like the righteous in the days of Noah.
在那一天,我们希望自己能像挪亚日子的义人一样被留下。
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And to do that, to be left behind, we need to be saved by the water and the wood, by baptism and the cross, and thereby be incorporated into the ark of Christ, the church.
而要做到这一点,要被留下,我们就需要借着水和木头得救,也就是借着洗礼和十字架得救,并因此被纳入基督的方舟,也就是教会。
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Now, unfortunately, many Christians today have been taught that it's actually bad to be left behind based on this false teaching called the rapture.
不过很可惜,今天很多基督徒被一种叫「被提」的错误教导影响,被教导说「被留下」其实是坏事。
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Now, if that is what you've been taught, I hope you'll take a look at this biblical explanation that I made debunking the most commonly used proof text for the rapture and see that this whole idea is actually quite biblical.
如果你一直是这么被教导的,我希望你看看我做的这个基于圣经的解释视频,我在里面驳倒了「被提」最常被用来当作依据的那段经文,你会看到,这整套观念其实非常符合圣经。
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For Shameless Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
这里是无耻教皇党,我是 Joe Heschmeyer。
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God bless you.
愿神祝福你。