Transcript
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Welcome back to Shameless Popery.
欢迎回到〖无耻教皇党〗。
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I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
我是 Joe Heschmeyer。
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My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
「我的神,我的神,为什么离弃我?」
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The haunting words that echo from the cross as our Lord suffers on Good Friday, they're a powerful meditation for Holy Week, and as I mentioned in an earlier episode, Jesus is quoting Psalm 22, which is an incredible Old Testament prophecy of the crucifixion.
当我们的主在受难日受苦时,从十字架上回荡的这些萦绕心间的话语,是圣周里强有力的默想。正如我在之前的节目中提到过的,耶稣正在引用诗篇22篇,这是旧约中对 crucifixion 的惊人预言。
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But what do his words mean?
但他的话是什么意思?
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Many evangelical Protestants, particularly those from a reformed or Calvinist tradition, have been taught that this passage proves that God the Father has turned away from God the Son, abandoning him or even damning him.
许多福音派新教徒,特别是那些来自改革宗或加尔文主义传统的人,被教导说这段经文证明圣父已经离弃圣子,抛弃他甚至定他的罪。
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Those are extraordinary claims with some serious theological implications, and today, I want to test those claims by scripture.
这些都是带有重大神学含义的非同寻常的主张,今天我想用圣经来检验这些主张。
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But before I do that, I want to thank all of you who support us over at shamelessjoe.com.
但在开始之前,我要感谢所有在 shamelessjoe.com 上支持我们的人。
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I hope you've been able to see how much the channel's grown in the last few months and how much the production has improved, and just know we wouldn't be able to do all of this without your direct support.
希望你们已经看到过去几个月频道成长了多少,制作水平提升了多少。要知道,没有你们的直接支持,我们不可能做到这些。
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Shameless Popery doesn't take sponsors.
〖无耻教皇党〗不接受赞助商。
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YouTube ad revenue is very unpredictable, so this show depends upon its supporters to keep going and to keep growing.
YouTube 广告收入非常不稳定,所以这个节目依赖支持者才能持续运作并不断发展。
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It would mean the world to me if you would consider going to shamelessjoe.com, signing up for as little as five dollars a month, and in exchange, you'll get access to ad-free videos and exclusive Q&A livestreams.
如果你们能考虑访问 shamelessjoe.com,每月只需支付5美元,就能获得无广告视频和独家问答直播的观看权限,这对我来说意义重大。
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So thank you so much for your support, and I hope to see you over there.
非常感谢你们的支持,希望在那里见到你们。
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Let's start with John Piper, one of the most popular preachers in the last several decades.
让我们从 John Piper 开始,他是过去几十年来最受欢迎的传道人之一。
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He says of Christ recounting of Psalm 22
他这样评论基督引用诗篇22篇
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I don't think we could begin to fathom all that this would mean between the Father and the Son.
「我认为我们根本无法理解这对圣父和圣子之间意味着什么」
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To be forsaken by God is the cry of the damned, and he was damned for us.
「被神离弃是被定罪者的呼喊,而他为我们被定罪」
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So he used these words because there was a real forsakenness.
「所以他使用这些话是因为确实存在真实的离弃」
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Now, Piper is right about one thing.
现在,Piper 有一点说得对。
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It is unfathomable that anyone with a proper understanding of the Trinity could believe that the Father damns the Son.
任何对三位一体有正确理解的人竟会相信圣父定圣子的罪,这是难以理解的。
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It's unfathomable that somebody could believe that Jesus is both true God and damned by God.
有人竟会相信耶稣既是真神又被神定罪,这也是难以理解的。
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Those things are unfathomable because they're logically incoherent, but there's a good reason that the early Christians didn't believe these things, and it's not just that this view of the cross contradicts Trinitarian theology and sound Christology by pitting the Trinity against itself or even pitting Jesus' two natures against themselves.
这些事情之所以难以理解,是因为它们在逻辑上自相矛盾。但早期基督徒不相信这些是有充分理由的,不仅因为这种十字架观点使三位一体自我对立,甚至使耶稣的两种本性彼此对立,从而与三位一体神学和健全的基督论相矛盾。
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It's that this interpretation of Psalm 22 and the cross disagrees with both Psalm 22 itself and the Biblical depiction of the cross.
还因为这种对诗篇22篇和十字架的解读,既与诗篇22篇本身不符,也与圣经对十字架的描述相矛盾。
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If you want to understand what Jesus meant by crying out, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
如果你想理解耶稣呼喊『我的神,我的神,为什么离弃我?』是什么意思,
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you have to read these words in the context of the whole of Psalm 22.
就必须在整篇诗篇22篇的语境中阅读这些话。
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These words are the exact first words of Psalm 22, and that's important because Jesus seems to have known that the whole psalm, in some way or other, was about him, because at least three other parts of this psalm are quoted in the story of his death.
这些话正是诗篇22篇的开篇词,这很重要,因为耶稣似乎知道整篇诗篇在某种程度上都是关于他的,因为在他受难的故事中至少还引用了这篇诗篇的其他三个部分。
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On this point, John Piper is right, and it's worth pointing out that the earliest Christians made this point as well.
在这一点上,John Piper 是对的,值得指出的是最早的基督徒也提出了这个观点。
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So if you want to make sense of Jesus' words, don't run to a reformed manual on what John Calvin thinks forsaking requires.
所以如果你想理解耶稣的话,不要急着去查改革宗手册看加尔文认为离弃需要什么条件。
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Turn instead to the Old Testament and read the full passage that Jesus is quoting from.
相反,应该转向旧约,阅读耶稣所引用的完整段落。
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In fact, better yet, both the prayer of Psalm 22 and Jesus' prayer from the cross should also be read in the broader context of Jesus' teachings about prayer, particularly in Luke 18.
事实上,更好的做法是,应该把诗篇22篇的祷告和耶稣在十字架上的祷告,都放在耶稣关于祷告的更广泛教导背景下阅读,特别是在路加福音18章。
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And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night?
「神的选民昼夜呼吁他,他纵然为他们忍了多时,岂不终久给他们伸冤吗?」
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Will he delay long over them?
「他岂能耽延不顾他们吗?」
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I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily.
「我告诉你们,要快快地给他们伸冤了。」
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What are the connections we see here?
我们在这里看到什么联系?
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Well, first of all, Christ is the electos, the chosen one.
首先,基督是选民,是被选者。
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In fact, that's what he's being taunted about here on the cross.
事实上,这正是他在十字架上被嘲笑的点。
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He saved others.
「他救了别人」
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Let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, his chosen one.
「如果他是神的基督,是神所拣选的,可以救自己吧!」
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The same Greek word, electos, is used in both places.
两处使用的希腊文都是同一个词:选民。
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Jesus is showing us what it looks like to be the elect of God.
耶稣向我们展示了作为神选民的样子。
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And second, Jesus talks about the elect crying out night and day, and that's exactly what Psalm 22 says that the psalmist is doing.
其次,耶稣谈到选民昼夜呼吁,这正是诗篇22篇中诗人所做的。
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This is where it's important to remember that My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
这里重要的是要记住『我的神,我的神,为什么离弃我?』
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isn't the end of Psalm 22.
并非诗篇22篇的结尾。
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It's the beginning.
而是开头。
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And just as Jesus promises in Luke 18, God hears the cry of his elect and vindicates him speedily.
正如耶稣在路加福音18章所应许的,神听见选民的呼求并快快为他伸冤。
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That's the whole point of Good Friday and of Easter, and it's also what happens in Psalm 22.
这正是受难日和复活节的全部意义,也是诗篇22篇所发生的事。
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In verse 24, the psalmist tells us to praise God, for he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard when he cried to him.
在第24节,诗人告诉我们要赞美神,因为他并没有藐视憎恶受苦的人,也没有向他掩面,而是听见了他的呼求。
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So the man of Psalm 22 says that God has not hidden his face from him.
所以诗篇22篇中的这个人说神没有向他掩面。
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That's important because central to the evangelical reformed reading of Psalm 22 is that
这很重要,因为福音派改革宗对诗篇22篇解读的核心是
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There's a very real sense, dear friends, that on the cross, if Jesus was to be forsaken, truly forsaken by God, God had to turn his back.
「亲爱的朋友们,在十字架上,如果耶稣真的被神离弃,神就必须转脸不顾,这是非常真实的感受」
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Okay, so Psalm 22 says God has not hidden his face from Christ, and reformed theologians cite Jesus quoting Psalm 22 to claim that God has hidden his face from Christ.
好吧,诗篇22篇说神没有向基督掩面,而改革宗神学家引用耶稣对诗篇22篇的引用来声称神向基督掩面。
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One of these two is wrong.
两者必有一错。
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Now, you might ask, why?
现在你可能会问,为什么?
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Why would God the Father turn his back on his beloved son in the first place?
圣父为何一开始就要转脸不顾他爱子呢?
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It's a great question.
这是个很好的问题。
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According to Sproul, quote, God is too holy to look at sin.
根据 Sproul 的说法:『神太圣洁,不能看罪。'
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He could not bear to look at that concentrated monumental condensation of evil, so he averted his eyes from his son .
『他无法忍受看着那集中浓缩的巨大邪恶,所以他转脸不看他的儿子。'
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the light of his countenance was turned off.
『他脸上的光熄灭了。'
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All blessedness was removed from his.
一切福分都从他身上被夺走了。
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This idea doesn't really work if Jesus is God.
如果耶稣是神,这个观点就站不住脚。
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You can't simultaneously believe that Jesus is fully God, and is on Calvary, and God can't even look at Calvary.
你不能同时相信耶稣是完全的神,在各各他山上,而神甚至不能看各各他。
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But let's not miss the forest for the trees.
但我们不要见树不见林。
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Jesus is praying to the Father from the cross, and moreover, he's addressing him in terms of intimacy, calling him My God.
耶稣在十字架上向圣父祷告,而且他用亲密的称呼称他为『我的神』。
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And his last words on the cross are going to be, Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.
他在十字架上最后的话将是:『父啊,我将我的灵魂交在你手里。』
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And none of that makes sense if the Father refuses to hear and listen to his son.
如果圣父拒绝听他的儿子,这一切就说不通了。
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In the Gospel of John in particular, Jesus refers to the crucifixion as a kind of ascension or enthronement, describing it as a moment in which he is lifted up.
特别是在约翰福音中,耶稣将 crucifixion 称为一种升天或登基,描述为他被高举的时刻。
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And every other time that this word appears, the one that's translated as lifted up, it means exalted.
每次这个词出现时,被译为『高举』,意思都是『被尊崇』。
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It's the same word used to describe Christ's exaltation to the right hand of the Father in Acts 2 and in Acts 5. And that makes sense.
这个词同样用于描述基督在使徒行传2章和5章中被高举到圣父右边的情况。这是合理的。
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Not only is Jesus physically being lifted up, this is also the first time that we find him publicly declared the king of the Jews.
不仅耶稣在肉体上被举起,这也是我们第一次看到他公开被宣告为犹太人的王。
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It's emblazoned above the cross.
这被铭刻在十字架上方。
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This, then, is the throne of Christ.
那么,这就是基督的宝座。
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So in John 3, he says that just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
所以在约翰福音3章,他说:『摩西在旷野怎样举蛇,人子也必照样被举起来,叫一切信他的都得永生。』
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And in John 8, he connects his coming lifting up with the fact that the Father never actually abandons him.
在约翰福音8章,他将自己即将被高举与圣父从未真正离弃他的事实联系起来。
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He says, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak thus as the Father taught me.
他说:『你们举起人子以后,必知道我是基督,并且知道我没有一件事是凭着自己作的。我说这些话乃是照着父所教训我的。』
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And he who sent me is with me.
『那差我来的,是与我同在。』
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He has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him.
『他没有撇下我独自一人,因为我常做他所喜悦的事。』
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And just as Jesus's heavenly exaltation to the right hand of the Father is this moment of glory and divine intimacy, so Jesus's earthly exaltation on the cross is also a moment presented in the Bible as one of divine intimacy, not of the Father turning his back on the Son.
正如耶稣被高举到圣父右边是天上的荣耀和神性亲密的时刻,同样,耶稣在十字架上的地上被高举,在圣经中也被呈现为神性亲密的时刻,而非圣父转脸不顾圣子的时刻。
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Jesus says in John 10, For this reason, the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again.
耶稣在约翰福音10章说:『我父爱我,因我将命舍去,好再取回来。』
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No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.
『没有人夺我的命去,是我自己舍的。』
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I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
『我有权柄舍了,也有权柄取回来。』
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This charge I have received from my Father.
『这是我从我父所受的命令。』
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This is a good reminder that Jesus isn't simply the victim on Good Friday.
这很好地提醒我们,耶稣在受难日不仅仅是受害者。
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He's also the priest, laying down his own life willingly, and he says that the Father loves him for doing this.
他也是祭司,甘愿舍命,并且他说圣父因此爱他。
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In Amos 5, God speaks of the sacrificial offerings made by those who aren't truly contrite, and says that he will not look upon them.
在阿摩司书5章,神谈到那些不真正悔改之人所献的祭,说他不会看这些祭。
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In other words, God is saying he's rejecting those sacrifices.
换句话说,神是在说他拒绝这些祭物。
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That's what it means to say God turns his back on a sacrificial offering.
这就是神转脸不顾祭物的意思。
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So if the Father really did turn his face away from Jesus's self-offering on Good Friday, that would mean that the perfect sacrifice has been rejected, and we would all still be dead in our sins.
所以如果圣父真的在受难日转脸不顾耶稣的自我献祭,那就意味着这完美的祭被拒绝了,我们都仍将死在罪中。
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Thanks be to God, scripture says the opposite.
感谢神,圣经说的正相反。
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The Father looks upon Christ's perfect sacrifice with love, for Jesus always does what is pleasing to him.
圣父以爱看待基督完美的祭,因为耶稣总是做他所喜悦的事。
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And understanding the cross through the lens of Old Testament sacrifice helps to explain another passage that sometimes trips some Protestants up as well.
通过旧约献祭的视角理解十字架,有助于解释另一个有时也让一些新教徒困惑的段落。
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In Isaiah 53, the suffering servant prophecy, Isaiah says that, It was the will of the Lord to bruise him.
在以赛亚书53章关于受苦仆人的预言中,以赛亚说:『耶和华却定意将他压伤。』
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He has put him to grief.
『使他受痛苦。』
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When he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring.
『当他献自己为赎罪祭时,他必看见后裔。』
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He shall prolong his days.
『他将延长年日。』
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Now the image there isn't of a passive recipient of the wrath of his father.
这里的形象不是被动接受他父亲愤怒的人。
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It's of someone wholly, willingly serving, doing the will of God, even when that will involves enduring the violence of evil men unto death.
而是完全、甘心事奉,遵行神旨意的人,即使这旨意包括忍受恶人的暴力直到死亡。
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And here, there's an added wrinkle in the Hebrew of Isaiah 53, which says that he becomes asham, a word which means both sin and sin offering or guilt offering.
这里,以赛亚书53章的希伯来文有个额外的微妙之处,说他成为 asham,这个词既指罪,也指赎罪祭或赎愆祭。
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Think of it like the English word dusting, which can mean adding dust, like dusting for evidence, or removing dust, like dusting the furniture.
就像英语单词 dusting 可以指添加灰尘(如采集证据时撒粉),也可以指去除灰尘(如擦拭家具)。
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Becoming asham, then you could literally translate that either as becoming sin or becoming the sin offering.
成为 asham,你可以字面翻译为『成为罪』或『成为赎罪祭』。
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But even if you translate it as becoming sin, that doesn't mean that the suffering servant becomes, you know, murder or the embodiment of sin itself, nor does it mean that he's regarded as sinful.
但即使你翻译为『成为罪』,也不意味着受苦的仆人成为谋杀或罪本身的化身,也不意味着他被视为有罪的。
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In fact, Leviticus 6 describes the asham as a thing most holy.
事实上,利未记6章将 asham 描述为至圣之物。
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And so when St. Paul says that the Father made Christ to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him, we might become the righteousness of God, Paul's not saying that the Father literally made Christ evil or into the personification of evil, or even that he pretended that the good Christ was evil.
所以当圣保罗说圣父使那不知罪的基督『成为罪』,好叫我们在他里面成为神的义时,保罗不是说圣父真的使基督成为邪恶或邪恶的化身,甚至假装良善的基督是邪恶的。
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He's saying that Christ is the suffering servant, the sinless sin offering, a sacrifice most holy.
他是说基督是受苦的仆人,无罪的赎罪祭,至圣的祭物。
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And Christ is forsaken in the sense that God allows him to suffer horrendous evils, but he's not forsaken in the sense of being an innocent victim of divine wrath, or of the Father turning his back upon him.
基督被离弃的意思是神允许他遭受可怕的罪恶,但他不是被离弃为神圣愤怒的无辜受害者,也不是圣父转脸不顾他。
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This reformed misinterpretation of Christ's cry from the cross isn't just bad biblical exegesis contradicting Psalm 22, contradicting Jesus's teaching on prayer, and contradicting Jesus's teaching on the cross.
改革宗对基督在十字架上呼喊的误解不仅是糟糕的圣经解经,与诗篇22篇矛盾,与耶稣关于祷告的教导矛盾,与耶稣关于十字架的教导矛盾。
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It's not just bad theology contradicting Trinitarian and christological doctrine.
不仅是与三位一体和基督论教义相矛盾的糟糕神学。
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It's ungodly.
这是不敬虔的。
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In 1 Corinthians 12, St. Paul specifically warns that no one, led by the Spirit, will say that Jesus is, in Greek, anathema, accursed.
在哥林多前书12章,圣保罗特别警告说,凡被圣灵感动的人都不会说耶稣是『被咒诅的』(希腊文 anathema)。
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But in declaring that God damned Jesus, that's precisely what these reformed teachers are doing.
但宣称神咒诅耶稣,正是这些改革宗教师所做的。
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Wherever this theology is coming from, scripture warns that it's not coming from God.
无论这种神学来自哪里,圣经警告它不是来自神。
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Now the human father of Calvinism, John Calvin, argued that Jesus' cry from the cross made sense in light of his condemnation on our behalf.
现在,加尔文主义的人类之父加尔文认为,耶稣在十字架上的呼喊在他为我们受审的背景下是合理的。
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Calvin even argued that Christ's bodily death on the cross was actually inadequate to atone for our sins, and he claimed that it was necessary as well that Christ be spiritually damned to hell.
加尔文甚至认为基督在十字架上的肉体死亡实际上不足以赎我们的罪,他声称基督在灵里被咒诅下地狱也是必要的。
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Now according to St. Paul, God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
根据圣保罗的说法,『神在我们还作罪人的时候为我们死,神的爱就在此向我们显明了。』
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According to St. John, By this we know love, that he, Jesus, laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
根据圣约翰的说法:『主为我们舍命,我们从此就知道何为爱,我们也当为弟兄舍命。』
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The cross, biblically, is the image of divine love par excellence, but according to Calvinists like R.C. Sproul
从圣经来看,十字架是至高无上的神圣之爱的形象,但根据像 R.C. Sproul 这样的加尔文主义者
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For that moment in history, at that instant that Jesus was hanging on the cross, he was the most obscene thing in all of creation because there concentrated was the corporate wickedness of us all.
『在历史上的那一刻,当耶稣挂在十字架上时,他是整个创造中最污秽的东西,因为那里集中了我们所有人的集体罪恶。』
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So Christ on the cross is either the perfect image of divine love or the most obscene thing in all of creation, but I would suggest to you that it can't be both, and that one of these claims about the cross is not coming from God.
所以十字架上的基督要么是神圣之爱的完美形象,要么是整个创造中最污秽的东西,但我认为这两者不可能同时成立,关于十字架的其中一个主张不是来自神。
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Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
『祸哉那些称恶为善、称善为恶的人。』
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But this points to the bigger issue.
但这指向更大的问题。
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This isn't just a question about what Jesus means in his prayer to the Father when he cries out from Psalm 22.
这不仅关乎耶稣引用诗篇22篇向圣父祷告时是什么意思。
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It's not just a question of whether or not the Father turns his back upon the Son.
也不仅是圣父是否转脸不顾圣子的问题。
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This is a question about the meaning of the cross itself.
这是关于十字架本身意义的问题。
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The Bible says that he who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord.
圣经说:『定恶人为义的,定义人为恶的,这都为耶和华所憎恶。』
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The idea that God pours out his wrath upon his righteous son so that the wicked can be declared justified is abominable.
神将愤怒倾倒在他义子身上以便恶人称义的想法是可憎的。
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So if this view of the cross is wrong, how should we view it?
所以如果这种十字架观点是错误的,我们应该如何看待它?
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That's what we need to figure out, and I do a deep dive on that question right here.
这正是我们需要弄清楚的,我就在这里深入探讨这个问题。
833.00-835.48
For Shameless Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
这里是〖无耻教皇党〗,我是 Joe Heschmeyer。
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God bless you.
愿神祝福你们。