箴言31章描述了一位敬虔妇女的生活和内心， 但这样的描述在21世纪该如何理解和实践呢？ Proverbs 31 describes the life and the heart of a godly woman, but how does that description translate to the 21st century?
欢迎和我们一起，与《蒙爱与蒙福：家庭生活的圣经智 慧》作者金伯莉·韩一起探讨敬虔女性的内心世界。 Join us as we discuss the heart of godly womanhood with Kimberly Hahn, author of Beloved & Blessed: Biblical Wisdom for Family Life.
我是戴夫·帕冯卡神父，我是俄亥俄州斯图本维尔方济 各大学的校长，您现在正在收看「方济各大学讲坛」。 I'm Father Dave Pavonka, and I'm president of Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio, and you're watching Franciscan University Presents.
请继续收看。 Please stay with us.
欢迎收看「方济各大学讲坛」。 And welcome to Franciscan University Presents.
我是您的主持人，戴夫·帕冯卡神父。 I'm your host, Father Dave Pavonka.
我是斯图本维尔方济各大学的校长，今天我们要谈论家庭生活的圣经智慧。 I'm President of Franciscan University of Steubenville, and today, we're talking about Biblical wisdom for family life.
今天和我一起的还有我们的常驻嘉宾，雷吉斯·马丁博士。 I'm joined by our regular panelist, Dr. Regis Martin.
欢迎。 Welcome.
您好。 Hello.
他是本校系统神学的教授，还有司各特·韩博士，他是 本校圣经神学与新福传的迈克尔·斯坎伦讲座教授。 He is a professor of systematic theology here at Franciscan, and Dr. Scott Hahn, the Father Michael Scanlon Professor of Biblical Theology and the New Evangelization here at Franciscan.
我们很高兴欢迎我们的特别嘉宾金伯莉·韩，她是一位知名讲员、 作家，也是EWTN电台节目和播客「蒙爱与蒙福」的主持人。 And we are pleased to welcome our special guest, Kimberly Hahn, a popular speaker, author, and host of the EWTN Radio show and podcast, Beloved & Blessed.
金伯莉写了许多书，包括畅销全球的《罗马，甜蜜的家》，我想这本书她也得到了些帮助。 Kimberly's written numerous books, including the worldwide bestseller, Rome: Sweet Home, which I think she got some help with.
她拥有戈登-康威尔神学院的神学硕士学位。 Uh, and she holds a Master's in Theological Studies from Gordon-Conwell, uh, Theological Seminary.
金伯莉还是斯图本维尔市的市议员，是六个孩子的 母亲，有二十个孙辈，而且这个数字还在增加。 Kimberly is also a councilo- a councilwoman for the City of Steubenville, a mother of six children, uh, 20 grandchildren, yet growing-
据我所知。 to my understanding.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
太好了。 Great.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
她非常有资格来探讨敬虔女性和家庭生活的问题，这也是她在 《蒙爱与蒙福：家庭生活的圣经智慧》一书中所分享的内容。 And she's well-qualified to discuss the questions of godly womanhood, family life in her book, Beloved & Blessed: Biblical Wisdom for Family Life.
欢迎。 Welcome.
很高兴您能来到这里。 It's wonderful to have you here.
谢谢。 Thank you.
能有您在这里真是莫大的祝福。 It's just a great blessing to have you.
这是个令人屏息的介绍。 A breath-catching introduction.
是的，确实如此。 Yeah, it is.
确实如此。 It is.
您既管理着一个家庭，现在还管理着一座城市。 You're running a family, and you're now running a city.
像经营一家公司一样。 A corporation.
没错。 Right.
确实如此—— Well, it is-
城市之母。 Mother of a city.
我很喜欢这个说法。 I love it.
是的。 Yeah.
一栋大楼。 A building.
有您在这里真是祝福。 It's just a blessing to have you.
谢谢。 Thanks.
我非常喜欢这本书，我们等会儿会谈到它，但我想问，为什么是写这本书？ And, uh, I enjoyed the book very much, and we'll get to talk about it, but why this?
是什么激励了您，让您心里有感动说：「好，这就是我要做的事」？ What kind of motivated you and moved in your heart that says, "Okay, this is what I need to do"?
是的。 Yeah.
我们会敞开家门，在家里举办查经班，我很喜欢欢迎方济各大学的女生们来参加。 So we would open our home and have Bible studies in our home, and I loved to welcome the Franciscan University women.
她们也很喜欢去。 And they loved going there.
哦，那真的很美好。 Oh, it was wonderful.
我们常常把房间挤得满满的。 We would just pack the room, you know?
我希望能够分享一幅图景，让大家明白什么是成为 神的女性，什么是拥抱婚姻和家庭生活的呼召。 And I wanted to be able to share a vision of what it is to be a woman of God, what it is to embrace the vocation of marriage and family life.
让我感到惊讶的是，许多学生在家里的成长经历非常不同。 Um, what surprised me were the numbers of students who had very different experiences at home.
有些人来自完整、慷慨、温馨的大家庭，有些人的父母 不是公教徒，或者虽然是公教徒，但很遗憾已经离婚。 You know, some beautifully intact, large, generous families, some whose parents are not Catholic who, uh, or who are Catholic, but sadly divorced.
所以我觉得她们带着许多误解来到这里。 And so they came with a lot of, uh, a lot of misunderstandings, I think.
所以有机会一起查考圣经，我们几乎把箴言31章当作目录来用—— Um, so to have an opportunity to open Scriptures, and we used Proverbs 31 almost as a table of contents-
好的。 Okay.
…… ...
然后再遍查圣经，补充内容，思考：在进入我的呼召之前，作为女性 、作为神的女儿，我该如何认识自己？而我的呼召又意味着什么？ and then ranged throughout the Scriptures, filling that in and saying, you know, what does it mean to understand myself as a woman, to, uh, the daughter of God, before I get into my vocation, and then what does that vocation mean?
我们又该如何以美好、有说服力的见证，把基督与教会之 间的关系，以及他所成就的一切，活出来，展现给世界？ Um, and how can we live that out in a, in a really beautiful, uh, compelling witness to the world of the relationship between Christ and the Church and what he has done?
我觉得您说得非常好，您确实打下了基础：在有呼召、在知道自己 要做什么之前，最重要的是明白自己在主面前作为女性的身份。 I think you said that beautifully, and- and you really do the- lay the foundation that before there's a vocation, before your call, what you're called to do, it's- it's just understanding who you are as a woman before the Lord.
是的。 Yeah.
那您能不能谈谈这个话题？ So maybe just speak to that.
成为神的女性到底意味着什么？那是什么样子？在这方面您从哪里找到榜样和指引？ That, what does it mean just to be a woman of God, and what does that look like, and where do you find examples and direction in this area?
你有多少时间？ How much time do you have?
是啊，是啊。 Yeah, yeah.
这是一个四集系列。 This is a four-part series.
我们首先要明白，是神决定了我的存在。 Um, so we begin with the fact that God is the one who decided that I would be.
这在今天非常重要。 Which is important today.
这真的很重要。 It's really important.
有时候人们会问：「你是你父母计划生的吗？」其实他们不了解，这个问题根本不重要。 You know, when people say, "Did your parents plan you?" They don't understand, that's not even a relevant question.
是的，没错。 Yeah, right.
没错。 Right.
因为你之所以存在，就是神拣选了你。 Because you have existence, you know God chose you.
是的。 Yeah.
所以我们要从神开始思考，而不是从父母或其他让我们来到世上 的人开始。我们要明白，神不仅创造了我们，还救赎了我们。 And so we begin with God and not with our parents or whatever, uh, whoever brought us into existence, and then understand that not only has he created us, he has redeemed us.
他已经为我们和他之间的正确关系做成了一切。我想，比如说箴言31章，就是一位王 后母亲在教导儿子该娶怎样的妻子，以及他在选择妻子时应当看重哪些品格和价值。 He has done everything needed so that we're in right relationship to him, and I think before, it's, for instance, Proverbs 31, it's a queen mother explaining to her son who, who he should marry, and- and what values to, um, uh, decide on his own that he really needs to seek in a wife.
最重要的是，在她成为王的妻子之前，她是否明白自己是万王之王的女儿？ Top, top billing is, does she understand before she's the ki- the wife of the king that she's the daughter of the King of Kings?
是的。 Yeah.
而神才是赐给我们价值感的那一位。 And he is the one who gives us our sense of worth.
每当我们和大学女生聚会时，这一点其实非常重要。因为我们很容易陷在自我 、软弱、失败和罪中，觉得神不会爱我，或者因为某些原因神不能救赎我。 This, this is actually a very powerful, um, point when we gather with the college women, because it is so easy to get caught up in looking at ourselves and our own weaknesses, failures, sins, and deciding that God really couldn't love me, or he couldn't really redeem me because of X, Y, or Z.
是的。 Yeah.
我们要正视这一点，并且说：「神在创立世界以前 就拣选了你，使你成为圣洁、无有瑕疵。」—— And to just really deal with that and say, "He chose you from before the foundation of the world, that you should be holy and blameless." I mean, that is-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
这是他真切的心意。 his earnest desire.
他会赐下圣灵的能力—— He will give you the power of the Holy Spirit-
嗯—— Well-
…… ...
让你能够完成他呼召你去做的事。 to do what he's called you to do.
是的。 Yeah.
我觉得这也是您的书让人感到自由的地方，就是您从 这个根本前提出发：我首先是与神有关系的，…… That, I think, is what's so freeing about your book, that you begin with that foundational premise, that I stand in relation to God before, uh, I stand in relation-...
而不是先与丈夫、妻子或孩子有关系。 to a husband or a wife or the children.
与世界的关系也是如此， Of the world and
是的。 Yeah.
而且，这一点具有决定性意义。 And, uh, that, that's formative.
这决定了我是谁，我应该为此感恩。 That's constitutive of who I am, and I should be grateful for that.
我是一个不断带来祝福的礼物。 I'm a gift that keeps on giving.
是的。 Yes.
富尔顿·辛曾说：「神充满爱意，却无法保守这个秘密。 Uh, Fulton Sheen says, uh, "God was in love, but He couldn't keep the secret.
他表达爱的方式就是创造。」这意味着每一个独 特的受造物——你、我、任何人——都是如此。 The telling of it was creation." And that means this discrete creation, you or me or you or anyone.
是的。 Yeah.
这是一个高远而深刻的背景：我们首先与神有关系，是他计划了我们的存在。 You know, and that's a lofty and profound background, you know, that we are in relation to God before we're in relation to anybody else, that he planned us.
他用爱把我们从无中带到有。 He loved us into being out of nothing.
但这并不意味着它只是高高在上，因为您在书中所 做的，其实正如箴言和整个智慧文学所做的一样。 But it doesn't mean it stays lofty because what you do in this book is pretty much what is done in the Book of Proverbs generally and throughout wisdom literature.
它非常实际。 It's very practical.
是的。 Yeah.
它也非常个人化。 It's very personal.
同时也非常注重人与人之间的关系。 It's also very interpersonal.
箴言是智慧书中最早的一卷。 You know, Proverbs is the, the first of the books of Wisdom.
全书共有31章。 It's 31 chapters long.
主题是「敬畏耶和华是智慧的开端」。 The theme is the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
箴言第8章把智慧描述为永恒且属于神的，但箴言31章同时又告 诉我们，智慧也可以体现在一个人身上，那就是妻子、母亲—— Proverbs 8 identifies wisdom as eternal and divine, but at the same time, Proverbs 31 shows us that wisdom is also embodied in a person, and that is a wife, a mother-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
一个女性。 a woman.
让我觉得很兴奋的是，虽然关于箴言31章有很多 学术研究，但几乎没有公教徒真正发现这份宝藏。 And to me, it is so exciting that, you know, apart from all of the scholarship that is done on Proverbs 31, uh, hardly any Catholics have discovered this treasure.
您已经做了这件事几十年了。 I mean, you have been doing this now for decades.
甚至在您成为公教徒之前，您就已经在带领大家学习了。 I mean, even before you were Catholic, you were leading this.
是的。 Yeah.
但关于箴言31章，还有一点常被忽略：它其实是一部文学杰作。 But one last thought about Proverbs 31 that people don't often recognize is that it is a literary masterpiece.
如果你用希伯来文来看，它是首字母诗。 When you look at it in Hebrew, it's what is called an acrostic.
它用希伯来字母表的22个字母作为每节的开头，而且结构上是交错 排列的，中心思想就是要找到那位能让你成为蒙神喜悦丈夫的妻子。 The 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet identify the verses, and then it's also chiastic, and so it has this center, and it's all about finding the wife that will make you the kind of husband that will please the Lord.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以有了这些背景，箴言31章其实非常贴近生 活，你很难在其他经文里找到类似的内容—— And, and so, you know, with all of that as background, it just comes down to earth in a way that, uh, you really are hard-pressed to find any other passage-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
在整本圣经里—— in all of scripture-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
能像那一章、像您这样详细展开的。 that unpacks it the way that chapter does, but the way you do.
我还要提一下，这本《蒙爱与蒙福》只是四本书中的一本。 And I should mention, too, that this is just one book, Beloved and Blessed, one of four.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
您已经写这些书很多年了。 And, uh, you've been writing these books now for years.
您也教导这些内容几十年了。 You've been teaching this material for decades.
您已经这样生活了43年。 You've been living it now for 43 years.
正在努力。 Trying to.
其实比那还要久，不过我就不具体说多少年了。 Actually, really longer than that, but I won't say exactly how long.
您一直用这些智慧来养育您的孩子。 Well, you've raised your children in the light of that wisdom.
是的。 Yeah.
没错。 That's right.
阿门。 Amen.
这真的很了不起。 And that, that's amazing.
我知道。 I know.
我很欣赏的一点，也是你们两位都提到的，就是你一开始就非常实际，确实很接地气。 One, one of the things that I did appreciate about it, and it goes with both of, what you were both saying, is that you, you begin and, and you are right, profoundly practical.
是的。 Yeah.
对于读这本书的人来说，会觉得「哇，这真的很实用」。不过这又是另一个话题了。 For, for this person reading this, like, "Wow, that was really practical." But that's a whole nother story for another day.
啊，那很好。 Aw, that's good.
不过，有一点是…… But, but the thing that is...
因为你也谈到，如果没有结婚，或者是寡妇，这意味着什么。 'Cause you talk a little bit about what does it mean if you're not married and if you're a widow.
所以我很欣赏这一点，就是根基在于作为神的女性，站在主面前—— So one, I really appreciated that, that, that the foundation is, is a woman of God standing before the Lord-
是的。 Yes.
…… ...
在耶稣里得救赎，然后才有后面的一切。 redeemed in Jesus, and then the other things that come from that.
没有结婚的人也会喜欢这本书。 But a person who is not married is gonna enjoy this book.
寡妇也会喜欢这本书。 A person who is widowed is gonna enjoy this book.
所以我觉得这是一个很棒、很美、很有洞见的开头。 So I think that that was a great, beautiful, insightful way to start.
谢谢。 Thank you.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
斯各特，你刚才提到了两处关键的箴言，第8章和第31章。 Well, well, Scott, you, you seized upon h- I think the two pivotal Proverbs, 8 and 31.
我很喜欢箴言第8章，因为它讲到智慧（Sophia）—— Uh, I, I love, uh, Proverbs 8 because it speaks of Sophia, wisdom-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
与神的关系。 in relation to God.
刘易斯说我们每个人在神面前都是女性。 Lewis tells us we're all feminine.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
而智慧（Sophia）是受造物对神的智慧、道、Logos的回应—— Uh, and Sophia is the creaturely response to divine wisdom, the word, the logos-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
祂从亘古就发出这智慧。 who utters this wisdom from all eternity.
而受造物则预备好去领受、喜悦地聆听这智慧，并且努力将其付诸实践。 But the creature is poised to receive it and delights to hear this wisdom and then to somehow put it into practice.
是的。 Yes.
这正是您的书展开的地方。 And this is where your book takes off.
是的，就是把它真正活出来。 Yeah, to literally flesh it out.
没错。 Yeah, right.
是的。 Yeah.
您花了很多时间讲解箴言31章，但您也谈到了圣经里其他可以作为榜样的女性。 You spent a lot of time in, in Proverbs 31, but you also talked about some other women in, in Bibl- in the Bible that you can look to.
能不能举几个圣经里可以作为榜样的女性例子？ Maybe just speak to a couple of other examples that we find in the scriptures of women that, that we can- you can look to for models and examples.
嗯。 Hmm.
有趣的是，你也可以看看一些反面教材—— Uh, it's interesting because you can look at some of the poor models and, and it's-
是的，你也能从中学到东西。 Yeah, you glean something from that.
…… ...
你会觉得：「好，这不是我想成为的样子。」 it's, it's like, "Okay, this is not what I want to be."
很有意思。 Interesting.
然后你再看那些正面的榜样，其实沿着救恩历史 去看每一位关键人物的妻子，是很有意思的。 And then you look at the positive ones, um, I- it's actually a very interesting walk through salvation history to look at the wives of each of the pivotal figures.
是的，这些人物。 Figures, yeah.
你可以看到神如何在救赎她们的同时，也借着她们的配偶来救赎以色列民。 You know, and, and to see how God is in the process of redeeming them as well as using their spouses to redeem the people of Israel.
还有像马利亚和马大这样的例子，圣经并没有提到她们是否结婚。 And then you've got examples like Mary and Martha where there's no comment about them being married.
她们和兄弟拉撒路一起生活， They're still living together, brothers, brother and sisters, the sisters-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
就是拉撒路的姐妹。 uh, of Lazarus.
但她们的家却充满了—— And yet, how, how full their home is-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
充满了款待之情。 in hospitality.
是的。 Yeah.
她们两人都很渴望从主那里领受，马利亚更喜欢坐在耶稣脚前 聆听，马大则更专注于服事，但神并没有改变她们的性格。 Um, how eager, uh, they are, both of them, to receive from our Lord, Mary obviously sitting more easily at Jesus' feet, Mary more caught up in the serving, and yet God doesn't change their personalities.
没错。 Right.
接下来的场景也不是马大坐在马利亚旁边。 And, and the next scene is not Martha sitting there right next to Mary.
她依然在服事，但她的态度已经正确了。 She's still serving, but she's serving with the right attitude.
是的。 Yeah.
她也没有想要把马利亚赶走。 And she's not, uh, trying to dislodge Mary.
在这个过程中，她也成为了圣徒。 Becoming a saint in the process.
是的。 Well, yeah.
没错，正是如此。 Yeah, exactly.
我们其实不该对马大有负面看法。 Mar- you know, we shouldn't give her a bum rap.
不该。 No.
她是不可或缺的。 She's indispensable.
是的。 Yeah.
马利亚可以坐在耶稣脚前聆听道，但她也需要有人预备食物—— Mar- Mary may sit at the feet of Jesus and, and feast on the Word, but she needs bread as well- ...
这些面包总得有人切、有人摆上桌—— that somebody has to spread and cut-
是的。 Yes.
…… ...
还要有人服事大家。 and, and, and, and, uh, serve.
所以马大在这个过程中其实非常重要。 So Martha is pretty necessary to this, uh, uh, this, uh, equation.
我觉得这也是婚姻呼召中让我很受鼓舞的一点， 其实更深层次地说，成为女性就是要孕育生命。 And I think it's one of the things that I find so heartening in this whole vocation of marriage, but also even further what it means to be a woman is to nurture life.
嗯。 Mm.
所以我相信，每一位女性至少都被呼召与主建立一种配 偶式的委身，也许还会与某个人建立这样的关系—— And so every woman, I believe, is called to a spousal commitment to our Lord at least, maybe to an actual person-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
但至少是与主—— but at least to our Lord-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
在那种忠心和结果子里，活出属灵的母性。 in that faithfulness and fruitfulness, and then, um, spiritual motherhood.
这并不比别的呼召低。 And it is not less.
你知道，蒙召过奉献生活，并不是要成为「无性别」的人。 And the, and the call to consecrated life, as you know, is not a call to being a neuter for God.
没错。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
而是要把你全部的男性特质和父性带给我们大家。 It is to bring the fullness of your manhood and your fatherhood to all of us.
同样，尚未结婚或选择独身奉献给主的女性—— And likewise, a woman who is not yet married or who is choosing to be consecrated to our Lord in singleness-...
她依然是女性，要把孕育和维系生命的美好特质展现出来。 still is a woman, and is to bring to the fore all of those beautiful qualities that go into nurturing life and sustaining life.
比如营造一个家、乐于接待他人。 And, you know, creating a home, and being hospitable.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
在各种实际需要中不断扩展自己。 Expanding herself with, with all these practical needs.
没有哪一种人生呼召比母亲更崇高。 The, the, there's no human vocation that is more sublime than motherhood.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你引用了明曾提枢机主教的话，那段话真的很感人。 And you, you cite Cardinal Mindszenty, uh, which is really a moving passage.
确实如此。 It is.
他形容母亲是丰碑，创造的杰作甚至比巴黎圣母院还伟大。 His description of, of the, the mother who is this monument, who creates this masterpiece, which is greater even than the Cathedral of Notre Dame.
这里是永恒灵魂的居所。 Here is a dwelling place for an immortal soul.
连天使都未曾创造过这样的奇迹。 Not even the angels have wrought, uh, such marvels.
女性却能做到这一点。 Uh, a woman can do that.
她确实更贴近生命的奥秘。 She's really that much closer to the mystery of life.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你知道，神的区分是为了合一。 You know, God distinguishes to unite.
这句话常被归于阿奎那的圣托马斯。 That's often ascribed to Saint Thomas Aquinas.
我们区分是为了合一，而不是分裂。 We distinguish to unite, not to separate.
但神造人有男有女，并不是像当今文化那样为了分裂、对立 、极端化。其实对有害的男子气概的批评也不是全无道理。 But God is really the one who makes man male and female, not for the purpose of dividing, opposing, polarizing the way our culture does, and the, you know, the, the critique of toxic masculinity is not entirely without merit.
有一种大男子主义很容易被坚强的女性所威胁。 There's a kind of machismo that is easily threatened by strong women.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但解决有害男子气概的方法不是废除父权。 But the solution to toxic masculinity is not to get rid of patriarchy.
没错。 Right.
而是要用母性来平衡它。 It's to balance it with matriarchy.
嗯。 Hm.
我觉得，作为男性，我至少更倾向于抽象、理论、理性，而我需要把这 些和具体、实际、个人的东西区分开来，这样我们彼此才能达到平衡。 You know, and I think that as men, I at least tend towards the abstract, the theoretical, the intellectual, and I need to distinguish that from the concrete, the practical, and the personal, and that's the equilibrium that we bring to each other.
当然你也很有思想。 It's not like you're not also intellectual.
你确实如此。 You are.
你有神学硕士学位，我也希望自己不是完全不切实际的人。 You've got your master's degree in theology, and I'd like to think I'm not entirely impractical.
没错。 Right.
但这种区分是为了合一，这不仅体现在婚姻里，其实也深深写在整个生命的结构里。 But it's that distincting, it's, it's the, it's the distinguishing to unite that is in, in a certain sense en- enveloped in marriage, but it's, it's basically written into the fabric of all of life.
然而我们所处的文化却完全否认并扭曲了这一点。 And yet we live in a culture that has completely denied that and distorted it.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
甚至让人几乎认不出来了。 And made it beyond almost recognition.
是的。 Yeah.
但其实它就明明白白地摆在我们面前。 And yet it's, it's, it's hiding in plain view.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
它就在房间中央，只要我们愿意承认显而易见的事实，就能发现它。 It's, it's right there in the middle of the room, and it's like waiting to be discovered just by kind of recognizing the obvious.
再次感谢你。 And again, thank you.
在我们结束第一部分之前，我必须说一句。 I just, I have to say this before we finish the first segment.
我以前也跟你说过，我为能成为你的丈夫感到非常自豪，也非 常感恩。不只是因为你的著作，更因为你带给家庭的生命。 I've told you this before, but I am so proud to be your husband and so grateful, not only for the literary output, but for the human output.
我们有六个孩子，现在有21个孙辈，而且第21个还在路上，荣耀归给神。 The six kids and now 21 grandkids, and that number 21 is on the way, so glory to God.
我们都很感恩。 We're all grateful.
是的。 Yeah.
你在书里偶尔也会向司各特致敬。 Well, I mean, you, you pay occasional homage, uh, to Scott in the book.
我是说…… I mean...
我当然有。 I sure do.
你说丈夫最浪漫的事—— You say the most romantic thing a husband can do- ...
可能就是洗碗。 is maybe do the dishes.
倒垃圾。 Take out the garbage.
整理车库。 Clean out the garage.
是的。 Yeah.
我猜司各特也会做这些事。 And I suspect Scott is doing those things.
每个人都想当那条鱼。 Everyone wants to be the fish.
但在水面之下，你……你没有，呃，母性的管教，不过…… But under the waves, you, you, you don't, you Maternal discipline, but...
你不用回答这个。 You don't have to answer that.
我们继续吧。 Let's go on.
不过很快地说一句，也许我们等会儿还会谈到，就是你读这本书 时，会发现你所呈现的形象和文化中呈现的形象有着鲜明对比。 No, but really quickly, and, and maybe very quickly we can pick it up on the other side is, just that sense, you read the book and there's a stark image of what you present and what culture presents.
是的。 Yeah.
把这两者放在一起，差别非常大。 You put those two things up together and they're profoundly different.
你能不能简单谈谈这个，然后我们再继续？ So maybe really quickly, a word on that, and we'll go from there.
可以。 Yes.
区别就在于你的焦点是什么。 And, and the difference is what's your focus?
你的焦点是不是主？ Is your focus the Lord?
如果焦点是主，那么无论环境多么让人害怕，哪怕刚刚 经历了失去孩子或流产，敞开生命就是信靠神的表现。 If the focus is the Lord, then being open to life is an expression of trusting God no matter how fearful circumstances may be, or if you just had the loss of a baby, miscarriage.
世界会说：「为什么要冒这个险？」 The world would say, "Why risk it?"
没错。 Right.
「为什么要自找麻烦？」但主呼召我们慷慨，而世 界却说：「生一个、两个就够了，然后去绝育。」 "Why, why be bothered?" Uh, the Lord calls us to generosity, and yet the world would say, "One, two," and then get sterilized.
是的。 Yeah.
你知道，这里面总是有拉扯。 And you know, and, and, and there's this constant push and pull.
主呼召我们效法他，以及我们彼此之间的关系。 Um, the Lord calls us to imitate him and that relationship between us.
他是那位传递信息的。 Where he's the messenger.
是的。 Yes.
我们才刚刚进入主题，请继续收看。 We're just getting into our topic, so stay with us.
「方济各大学讲坛」马上回来。 Franciscan University Presents will continue.
我很喜欢金伯莉强调的一点，就是和耶稣基督的关系首先是最重要的。 One of the things I love that Kimberly emphasizes is how important a relationship with Jesus Christ is first.
因为无论我们现在生命中有什么呼召，首先与耶稣基督建立关 系是最重要的，然后才能在此基础上找到自己的呼召和使命。 Because, you know, whatever vocation all of us have in our lives right now, having that relationship with Jesus Christ is so important first, and then from there you can build off of that and find your vocation and what you're called to.
在方济各大学的朝圣之旅中，踏上圣人和殉道者的足迹。 Walk in the footsteps of saints and martyrs on a Franciscan University pilgrimage.
你将探访圣地、波兰、法国、奥地利、意大利等地，发掘你公教信仰的宝藏。 You'll explore the treasures of your Catholic heritage in the Holy Land, Poland, France, Austria, Italy, and more destinations.
详情请访问 franciscan.edu/pilgrimages。 Find out more at franciscan.edu/pilgrimages.
欢迎回到「方济各大学讲坛」。 Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
我们正在讨论家庭生活的圣经智慧。 We're talking about Biblical wisdom for family life.
你在书中花了很多篇幅谈论婚姻和家庭，你的一些见 解——作为一个未婚者，我觉得真的很有帮助—— Um, and you spend a beautiful amount of time in the book, uh, about marriage and family, and just some of the insights that you have, w- again, from a non-married person, I just thought was really helpful in-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
因为我曾经为很多人做过婚前辅导。 in having given marriage prep to a lot of people.
当然。 Sure.
但你首先谈到的，或者说我想谈的，是婚姻的本质是圣洁的，婚姻和圣事本身有一种圣洁。 But the first thing you begin to talk about, or I wanted to talk about, is the nature of marriage as holy, that there's something holy about m- marriage and the sacrament.
你能谈谈这个吗？ Maybe speak to that.
可以。 Yes.
所以婚姻不仅仅是建立一种关系。 So it's not just having a relationship.
不仅仅是找一个终身伴侣，虽然这本身也很美好。 It's not just finding someone who's a companion for life, which is beautiful and wonderful.
而是一个真实的圣洁呼召。 But it's an actual call to holiness.
这意味着，首先我需要和主有自己的关系，我也需要主。 And so that means, that, that gets us back to I need to have my own relationship with the Lord, first and foremost, and I need Him, too.
光是找一个愿意让你把孩子养成公教徒的人还不够。 It's not enough to just pair up with someone who's willing to let you raise the kids Catholic.
我们必须在信仰上有共识，因为男女本来就很不一样。 It is really, really important that we're on the same page, because being male and female, we will already be very different.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
无论我们的文化怎么说。 No matter what our culture says.
是的。 Yeah.
我们确实不同，正是在这种互补而非竞争的关系中，我们一起寻求主。正如富尔 顿·辛所说：「我们越靠近主，就越靠近彼此。」我很喜欢那个三角形的比喻。 We are, and it is in that complementarity as opposed to a competitive relationship that we seek the Lord side by side, and as Fulton Sheen said, "The closer we get to the Lord, the closer we get to each other." I love that image of the triangle moving us closer.
婚姻需要三个人。 It takes three to get married.
是的。 Yeah.
所以这是真正的圣洁呼召。 So this is an actual call to holiness.
我记得我们在乔利埃特的时候。 And I remember when we were in Joliet.
那时我还不是公教徒，但我在思考这些问题，偶然听到几个学生在聊天。 I, I was not a Catholic yet, but I was peering into these things, and I overheard a couple students.
其中一个人说……「你觉得你会成为祭司吗？」 One of them said...Um, so do you think you're gonna be a priest?
那个人说：「不会。 And the person said, "No.
我想结婚。」然后，哦，抱歉。 I want to get married." And, uh, and, oh, sorry.
其实问题是：「你有呼召吗？」 The question was, do you have a vocation?
不好意思。 Excuse me.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
你有呼召吗？ Do you have a vocation?
他说：「没有，我想结婚。」我就问司各特：「这是公教的答案吗？」 And, "No, I want to get married." And I asked Scott, I said, "Is that a Catholic answer?"
是的。 Yeah, it is.
他说：「其实不是。」确实不是。 And he said, "No, it really isn't." It isn't.
没错。 Right.
但这也不是一个普遍的呼召。我觉得有时候在校园里会听到有人说：「我知道自己被呼 召去结婚。」其实，只有当你遇到具体的人时，你才知道自己是否被呼召进入婚姻。 But it's also not a general call, and I think sometimes walking around campus, you can hear conversation about, you know, "I, I know I'm called to marriage." Well, you only know you're called to marriage when there's an individual there.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你可能觉得被吸引去结婚，也可能被吸引去当祭司。 You could feel drawn to it, or you could feel drawn to the priesthood.
没错。 Right.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
我认识一个女生，她觉得自己被吸引去过奉献生活 ，但她很确定神会让她结婚，因为她想当修女。 I had one gal who felt drawn to consecrated life and was sure that God was gonna make her get married because she wanted to be a nun.
就像—— It was like-
对神有很奇怪的想法。 Strange idea of God.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
…… ...
神其实不是那样做事的。 God really doesn't work that way.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
所以我们有机会通过婚姻的呼召进入一种新的服事。 And so, so we, we have that opportunity to enter into a new kind of service through that vocation of marriage.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
你一直在强调盟约和契约的区别，这几乎成了你的事业。 Well, it's the whole distinction that you've made a career out of between covenant and contract.
婚姻不是一项商业合作。 It's not a business enterprise.
没错。 Right.
不是两个人凑在一起，生几个孩子，主要还是为了满足自己的私利和自我中心。 You know, two people conveniently convene, get together, and maybe they'll produce a couple of kids, but for the most part, they, they're trying to, uh, aggrandize the self and advance their own self-centered, uh, interests.
那其实是对合一和亲密的嘲弄。 I mean, that's, that's a mockery of, of union and intimacy.
我想强调的是，结婚时在本体上会发生某种变化。 What, what I, uh, would insist upon is that when you get married, something happens metaphysically.
那是一种本体的转变。 There's an ontological shift.
我已经不再是以前的我了。 I'm not the same guy I was before.
我现在与这个原本陌生的人成为一体，她永远是一个奥秘，但我们二人成为一体。 I'm now joined to the flesh of this stranger, uh, who will always remain other, this endless mystery, but the two of us are now one flesh.
这是难以言喻的深刻。 I mean, that's unspeakably profound.
确实如此。 It is.
你永远无法完全参透这一点。 You can never come to the end of that.
是的。 Yeah.
其实我不仅仅是把它当成事业。 You know, I, I didn't just make a career out of it.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这是一项圣事。 It's a sacrament.
这是一份盟约。 It's a covenant.
不过你以神为中心的观点，有些人可能觉得太理论化了。 But your God-centered approach to things might strike people as being, well, that's just too theoretical.
其实正因为如此，它才更实际。 No, that makes it even more practical.
你知道，42年前我和你结婚时，你既是神的女儿， 也是杰瑞和帕蒂·柯克的女儿，而你现在依然是。 You know, when I married you 42 years ago, uh, you were the daughter of God, as well as the daughter of Jerry and Patty Kirk, but you still are.
每当我们一起参加弥撒、做晨祷，或我独自祷告时 ，我都会被提醒：神把他心爱的女儿托付给了我。 And one of the things that I, that hits me in prayer when we are at mass together or when we do morning prayer or when I'm just praying alone is that God has entrusted his beloved daughter to me.
嗯。 Mm.
我对此负有责任。 And I'm responsible for that.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你的父母把他们心爱的女儿托付给我，但最重要的是，你首先是神的女儿。 I mean, your parents entrusted their beloved daughter, but first and foremost, you're his.
是的。 Yeah.
每当我想起这一点时，我都带着敬畏和战兢，向神表达感恩，并求神 释放圣事的恩典，使我能够回应这个呼召。因为，这真的不容易。 And when I remember that, you know, with fear and trembling, I express heartfelt gratitude and ask God for the grace of the sacrament to be released, so that I might rise to that calling, because, I mean, that isn't hard.
没有超自然的恩典，这在人看来是不可能的。 That's just humanly impossible apart from supernatural grace.
我们无法每天都靠自己活出来，但你把我当作神的儿子， 慷慨地服事和爱我。我觉得这种调整几乎每天都需要。 We can't live that out practically day to day, and yet you see me as God's son and, and serve and love generously, and I think that kind of adjustment is almost necessarily daily.
你明白吗？ You know?
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
因为我们很容易会觉得…… Uh, because it's just too easy to think...
我们是夫妻。 I mean, we are spouses.
我们一起做父母、做祖父母，等等，但归根结底，我们首先是与神有关系的，这才是最…… You know, we're parents together and grandparents, all of the rest, but it goes back to the fact that we're related to God, and that is so much...
这一点很容易被忽略、被遗忘，但却是最重要的，就是基督的同在。 That, that's easily obscured, easily forgotten, and yet it's the most important thing of all, the Christ presence.
我之前也说过，虽然这本书很关注婚姻和家庭，但即使没有结婚的人，也能从中 得到很多帮助和益处，因为它深深扎根于基督和你与主的关系，这真的很美。 Y- Y- And I, and I stated it earlier, and I think it's true is that, that while this focus is a lot on marriage and family, even if somebody was not married, this is still, there's still a lot of really helpful, beneficial things, and that's because I think it's so rooted in Christ and so rooted in your relationship with the Lord, which is just, which is beautiful.
你还花了很多时间谈论家庭里非常实际的事情，比如…… And you spend a lot of time talking about, uh, I mean, some really practical things about family, about...
我以前从没想到预算这些事，但你花时间思考这些，非常有帮助。而且你还 要兼顾市议会、写作、事工、做妻子、做妈妈——你谈到如何平衡这一切。 I wouldn't have thought of budgets and all these kinds of things that you just spent time thinking about, which is very helpful, but you also, uh, as, as has been alluded, a busy life, you know, city council and writing and ministry and, uh, being a wife and my- how you, and you talk about juggling it all.
根据我在告解亭里的经验，我总是会告诉妈妈们，这是一份很辛苦的工作。 In my experience in the confessional so oftentimes, and, and I'll always tell moms, it's a hard job.
确实如此。 It is.
而且有80%的时候，她们听到这句话就哭了，对吧？ And 80% of the time, they just start crying, right?
她们只是需要有人告诉她们：「这真的很辛苦。」但你是怎么做到不灰心、坚持下去的？ They just needed somebody to say, "It's a hard job." But how, how do you juggle that without, I was gonna say, without getting discouraged?
我猜您有时候也会感到灰心吧。 My guess is you do get discouraged sometimes.
那您是怎么应对这一切的？ And, and how do you manage all that?
当然。 Sure.
我觉得，重视为家人营造和维系一个家的意义，这本身…… Um, I think by valuing what, what it means to create a home and to sustain a home for your family is...
对缓解灰心很有帮助。 It goes a long way to helping with that discouragement.
我记得有一次，我走上楼梯。 Um, I, I remember, uh, walking up the stairs.
我举过这样一个例子。 I gave this illustration.
我抱着一堆要洗的衣服上楼，看到最上面有一件小小的健康牌T恤，迈克尔穿过它。 I walked up the stairs with this load of laundry, and, uh, my eye caught a little help text shirt on the top, and Michael had worn it.
加百列也穿过。 Gabriel had worn it.
哈拿没穿过，但耶利米穿过，现在我几乎每周都给乔洗这件衣服。 Hannah didn't, uh, but Jeremiah had worn it, and now I was laundering it nearly every week for Joe.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我就停在楼梯中间。 And I just stopped in the middle of the stairs.
我心想：「我是个聪明人。 Like, "I'm an intelligent person.
我到底在做什么？我要洗这件衣服多少次？」我真的开口说：「神啊，我到底在做什么？」 What am I doing?" "How many times am I gonna wash this shirt?" I, I really, and I literally out loud just said, "God, what am I doing?"
是的。 Yeah.
神真的回应了我的心。 And, and He really answered my heart.
祂说：「看看这件小小的衣服。 He said, "Look at this one little shirt.
你已经用它爱了多少个孩子？ How many children have you loved?
多少次—— How many times-"
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… "...
就用这一件小衣服？」那一刻我简直想跳着上楼。 with this one little garment?" And I could have literally danced up the stairs.
那一刻，心情变得…… The light became...
担子一下子变得轻松了。 The load became so light.
所以我们真的需要明白，我们到底在做什么。 And so, we do need to understand, what is it that we're doing?
正如我妈妈常说：「欢迎你从人生风暴中回家。」我们是在营造一个避风港。 W- Um, as my mom would say, you know, "I welcome you back from the storms of life." We're creating a haven.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
一个充满平安和美好的地方，是陪伴的服事。 A place of peace, a place of beauty, um, the ministry of presence.
我真的觉得，这些是无法用金钱衡量的—— I, I, I really do not think we can financially quantify-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
它带来的影响是无法量化的。 what difference it makes.
你的妻子选择在家，这本身就是一种选择。 Your wife was home, and that's a choice.
我们本可以去赚钱。 We could have earned a paycheck.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但关键是，我把自己投入到了他们的生命里。 But the point is, I invested myself in their lives.
我觉得，这也给在外工作的配偶带来很大的安慰—— I think the peace that it gives a spouse who is working outside the home-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
因为你在家，这种安慰是巨大的。 is tremendous because you are there.
你会在他们从训练、和朋友聚会回来时迎接他们—— You're greeting them as they come back from practices or with friends-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
或者比赛回来，或者你在家教他们…… or games, or you're teaching them at...
也许你在家教育他们。 You know, maybe you're teaching them homeschooling.
也许你只是教他们信仰，但你始终在教导。 Maybe you're just teaching them the faith, but you're still teaching.
没错。 Right.
你在纠正他们。 You're correcting.
你在训练他们。 You're training.
比如教他们做预算。 Uh, like with the budgets.
所以—— And so-...
我相信，对抗灰心的方法就是要看到全局。 I, I, I believe that the d- the way we combat the discouragement is to get the big picture.
没错。 Right.
我到底在做什么？ What is it that I am doing?
你举了一个很有启发性的例子：有学生问你，「天天待在家里，不觉得很沮丧吗？」 Well, you, you give a wonderfully instructive example of when one of your students accosted you to ask, "Isn't it frustrating having to stay home day after bloody day?"
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你说：「我是在一片片尿布中改变文化。」那可是很多尿布。 And you said, "Look, I'm changing the culture one diaper at a time." That's a lot of diapers.
确实是很多尿布。 That's a lot of diapers.
这需要很大的转变——需要一场巨大的改变。 It takes a lot of transformation- Needs a pretty seismic change.
是的。 Yeah.
从基督的角度看，没有什么是平凡无奇的，就像那件你洗了无数次的衣服。 And, and in the perspective of Christ, nothing is merely banal, like that shirt that you've had to wash a million times.
那是蒙福的。 It's, it's blessed.
那是有福的。 It's beatific.
是的。 Yes.
那是蒙恩的时刻。 It's an occasion for grace.
我其实把那件衣服保存下来了，因为我的大卫也穿过。 I actually have saved it because my David also wore it.
现在我真的很需要健康牌T恤的广告。 I could really do with health text commercial right now.
它将成为四等圣物。 It'll become a fourth class relic.
我得说，我不知道健康牌T恤是什么，等结束后我得查查。 I must say, I don't know what a health text is, but I'll look that up on exactly what that is after we're done.
但我觉得，这种在孩子生命中带来改变、陪伴他们的美好，是无法量化的。 No, but I think that's beautiful in just that, in, in making the difference in their life and being present to them, and, and you can't quantify that.
你无法用数字衡量。 You can't put a number on that.
你当初做这个决定难吗，还是一直都很坚定？ Was it hard for you to make that decision or was it always...
你怎么面对那些没有做出同样选择的家庭？你会怎么调适？ How do you, how do you deal with mo- other families that maybe have not made that decision and, and how do you wrestle with that?
是的。 Yeah.
其实，第一个孩子出生时，适应最难。 W- well, the first, the first child was th- the hard adjustment.
明白。 Okay.
因为你的生活节奏完全变了。 Because y- you, you have a whole different pace.
我记得我会把报纸上的所有内容大声读给两三个月大的迈克尔听。 You know, I, I remember reading everything in The Sun out loud to Michael, who's two months, three months, four months old.
他还不会说话。 He's not even talking.
你最终至少能看到他笑，但其实…… You know, you're at least getting smiles eventually, but, you know, there...
所以我很需要听到别人的声音，如果没有，我就听自 己的声音。我会出去散步，看看有没有邻居在家—— And so, I needed to hear another human voice, and if I couldn't, I would hear my own, you know, and I would take walks and look for any neighbor's house-
看到谁家门口有脚印，是的。 Somebody's feet, yeah.
…… ...
这样我们就能聊聊天。 so we could talk, you know?
所以我觉得年长的女性真的要帮助年轻的妈妈们。 So that's where I think older women need to really assist the younger women.
帮她们争取一点休息时间。 Um, help them get a little break.
选择在家带孩子，并不代表不能请保姆、请人打扫或寻求帮助。 Just because you choose to be home with your children does not mean that it's wrong to utilize a sitter or have cleaning help or, you know, have assistance.
有一句让我觉得很自由的话就是：我是家里的女王，是家庭的核心。 I mean, I guess the, one of the phrases that I find very liberating is I am queen of the realm and the heart of the home.
是的。 Yeah.
所以我活出这个身份时，也包括让别人来帮我打理院子、家务等。 And so how I live that out includes other people who come and help me with the grounds and help me with the house and, you know, assist.
这并不意味着你要亲自种麦子、磨面粉—— It doesn't mean you do every, you know, you grow the grain to, to make the flour-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
然后自己做面包。 to make your own bread.
你提到「妈妈事工」，这是我们刚搬来时你就意识到的 。你会发现自己太投入家庭，几乎有种被困住的感觉。 You mentioned Ministry to Moms, something that you recognized early on when we moved here, you know, that, uh, you get so caught up, you can almost feel trapped in the home.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
于是你邀请学生们来家里，也把那些忙碌、疲惫的妻子和妈妈们聚在一起。 And so you brought students to our home, and then you also brought busy, haggard wives and mothers together.
这些年来，发生了什么变化？ And over the years, what happened?
其实你把很多学生「出口」了，因为她们最远都来到了我们家。 Well, you exported a lot of those students because they came as far west as our home.
她们专程赶来。 They made the trek.
我知道。 I know.
而且这项事工在方济各大学还在继续。 And, you know, it's a ministry that continues at Franciscan.
是的。 Yeah.
这真的很美。 Uh, which is so beautiful.
我也试着帮其他学校复制这个模式，但据我所知，还没有成功复制。 And I've tried to help other people duplicate it at other schools, but to the best of my knowledge, it has not been duplicated.
你能给我们介绍一下吗？ Explain it to us.
当时有姐妹来查经班，她们会问：「你需要帮忙吗？」有 一个女生来帮忙，后来又有第二个。我就想：「其实—— So as the women were coming to Bible study, they would say, "Hey, do you ever need help?" And one gal came and, and offered help, and then a second, and when the second one did, I thought, "You know-
这里面也许有机会。 There's maybe something here.
…… ...
还有很多其他妈妈—— there are a lot of other mothers-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
也需要这样的帮助。」所以她们每周志愿服务三小时。 who need that help." So what they do is they volunteer three hours a week.
她们来到家里。 They come to the, to the home.
她们会做最需要的事，比如帮忙做饭、打扫、照看孩子。 They will do whatever is most needed, so they help cook or clean or watch the children.
有时候，这些女生会…… I had times that the women would...
我会把一张待办事项清单、车钥匙和所有孩子交给她们。 I would hand them a list of, of, uh, errands, the keys to my car, all my children.
然后我就能在家里独处。 And I would be alone in my home.
没错。 Right.
也许弹弹钢琴，或者去做一个圣时。 Maybe sit at the piano and play or go and have a holy hour.
这就像给高压锅松开盖子。 And it, it's like taking a pressure cooker and loosening the top.
这让我有一点喘息：「神啊，我得到了恢复。 And it just, it just gave a little bit of, "Okay, God, I'm refreshed.
我可以重新投入战斗。 I can go back into the fray.
我还能再坚持下去。」这真的很有意义。 I can do this again." And it has been so meaningful.
我相信对那些女生来说也很有意义。 And I believe it was meaningful to the girls.
她们中很多人在家里也有年幼的弟妹。 Um, many of them left little children, little siblings at home.
所以她们能来这里。 And so they were able to come.
是的。 Oh, yeah.
她们能吃到家常饭。 They've got a home cooked meal.
这是我们提供的一项内容。 That was one thing we offered.
她们还可以在这里洗衣服，反正本来也要洗，何不在别人家里洗？ They could do their laundry while they were there, which is a task they had to do anyway, so why not do it at someone's home?
她们找到了另一个家。 They found another family.
是的。 Yeah.
其实在很多情况下，不只是我们家这样。 I mean, in so many instances, not just for ours.
是的。 Yeah.
但对许多人来说也是如此。 But for many others.
这非常丰富人心。 It's very enriching.
也是生命线般的友谊。 Lifeline friendship as well.
这听起来也许有点不敬，但我猜连圣母马利亚有时也需要暂时离开一下。 Th- This may sound like an impiety, but I suspect even the Blessed Mother had to escape from time to time.
我知道她曾经去山区探望以利沙伯—— I know she went up into the hill country with Elizabeth-
她确实去了。 She did.
她必须去。 She had to.
…… ...
但她确实需要出去走走。 but she needed to get out.
是的。 Yeah.
约瑟，你来看家。 Joseph, you watch this empty house.
你知道，这里有个启示，就是对生命的开放。回到1980年你第一次 读《人类生命》时，我们还是修生。那时对生命开放就是丢弃避孕。 You know, what the lesson is, the takeaway, openness to life for us, going back to like 1980 when you first read Humanae Vitae and we were seminarians, you know, and openness to life meant throwing away contraception, you know?
但那就像池塘里的小石子，激起层层涟漪。 But that was like the pebble in the pond, the ripples, you know.
然后你突然怀孕，经历了三十多个小时的分娩和剖腹产，迈克尔出生后又有了加百列。 Then suddenly you're pregnant and over 30 hours of labor and a cesarean section, and then after Michael comes Gabriel.
对生命开放就是迎接生命、迎接一切，一次一件事，但影响深远。 And, and an openness to life is here comes life, here comes everything, you know, one thing at a time, but the ripples.
对生命开放，其实就是彻底顺服基督的主权，并且相信主永远不会辜负我们的信靠。 Openness to life is just nothing but a radical submission to the lordship of Christ and a trust that is never betrayed by the Lord.
他总是赐给我们比我们献上的更多，但他也总是要求我们献上超出自己能力的东西。 He always gives us back more than what we gave him, but he always asks us to give him more than we can, you know?
我觉得这一点在家庭里也能体现出来。 And I think that can be seen in the home.
所以不仅仅是女性或夫妻对生命开放，我的家本身就是一个对生命开放的家。 So it's not just the, the, you know, the woman is open to life or the couple is open to life, but my, my home was a home that was open to life.
我们家人口多，而且家里总是…… We had a large family, but also my home was always...
孩子们在家里跑来跑去。 kids were running through.
是的。 Yeah.
所以不仅仅是你们夫妻开放，你们的家庭也向外开放 ，几十年来很多人都在你们家中体验过生命的美好。 So it wasn't just you guys that were open, but you opened your family to that, and, and many people over the decades have experienced life in that.
是的。 Yeah.
在你们家、在我们家，我们也有类似的经历…… You know, in, in, in your instance, in our ex- experience, uh, we have this thing where...
就是大家庭。 extended family.
在斯图本维尔住的这31年里，我们家至少接待过60位男生住在一起。 And so in the last 31 years living here in Steubenville, you know, we've had at least 60 guys mostly live with us.
是的。 Yeah.
他们不仅仅是…… And they don't just...
他们不仅仅是房客。 They're not just boarders.
他们成了我们孩子的榜样，也成了我们的儿子。 They really are, you know, role models for our kids, but they become like sons to us as well.
你们对他们生命的影响，恐怕只有到永恒里才能完全知道。 Well, you've touched their lives in ways that I think only in eternity will you know the full extent of.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
他们也祝福了我们。 And they have blessed us.
是的，是的，这是彼此的。 Yes, yes, reciprocal.
生命带来生命。 Life- life gives life.
是的。 Yeah.
我们马上回来，继续「方济各大学讲坛」。 So we'll be right back with more Franciscan University Presents.
请继续收看。 Stay with us.
我觉得金伯莉的书里让我特别感动的一点，就是她谈到属灵母 性的意义，这对像我这样的大学女生、同龄人来说非常重要。 One of the things that I found super touching in Kimberly's book was just how much she touches on spiritual motherhood and how important that is for even college girls my age, people my age.
我们都在努力寻找自己的呼召，思考未来要做什么 ，是被呼召进入婚姻、单身，还是进入奉献生活。 We're all trying to figure out a vocation, trying to figure out, you know, what we want to do for the rest of our life and whether we're called to married life or singleness or, um, entering religious life.
属灵母性现在就需要开始操练。 You know, spiritual motherhood is so important to practice now.
现在就要学会关心他人，这样无论将来被呼召做什 么，都可以继续操练和成长，从现在就开始学习。 It's so important to start learning how to care for other people now, so whatever vocation you're called to in the future, that is, you know, what you can emphasize and you can keep learning that and you can start learning how to do that now.
如果你发现有一所大学，拥有一流的理科师资和课程 ，而且你不必在科学和信仰之间做选择，会怎样？ What if you discovered a university with unmatched science, faculty, and programs, a place where you didn't have to choose science over faith?
在斯图本维尔方济各大学，你会发现以信仰为动力、以学生为中心、以研究为导向的课 程，帮助你在医学、科研、工程、计算机科学等众多理工和健康领域找到理想的职业。 At Franciscan University of Steubenville, you'll find faith-inspired, student-focused, research-driven programs leading to satisfying careers in medicine, scientific research, engineering, computer science, and many more science and health fields.
在斯图本维尔方济各大学，教育不仅仅是一个词。 At Franciscan University of Steubenville, education is more than just a word.
它是一场发现之旅。 It's a discovery.
欢迎回来，感谢您的收看。 Welcome back and thank you for joining us.
您正在收看「方济各大学讲坛」，我们在斯图本 维尔方济各大学的传播艺术工作室录制本节目。 You're watching Franciscan University Presents, which we, we record here at the Comm Arts Studio at Franciscan University in Steubenville.
我们的学生负责操作摄像机和设备，神学系的马丁博士、 韩博士和我正在与金伯莉一起讨论家庭生活的圣经智慧。 Our students are operating the cameras and the equipment and members of our theology faculty, Dr. Martin and Dr. Hahn and I are discussing Biblical Wisdom for Family Life with Kimberly.
金伯莉，我们刚才谈到，有些女性可能会担心自己做得不够好，或者…… And Kimberly, as we were talking, um, I- I think a danger or perhaps a fear that some women have is that they're not gonna measure up, that they're not...
你展现了成为神的女性、妻子、母亲的美好榜样 ，但我接触的很多年轻妈妈都担心自己做不到。 I mean, you- you present such a beautiful model of- of being a woman of God, of being a wife, of being a mother, and just because I deal largely with younger moms, there's a fear about that, that they're not gonna measure up.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你能不能谈谈这个，帮助她们缓解这种担忧？ So maybe speak to that a- and help them be able to alleviate some of that fear for them.
首先，这其实是一个很慢的过程。 First of all, it- i- it's a very slow process.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以我们可以很有信心地知道，自己有很长的时间来学习如何做妈妈。 So we can- we can take, uh, great joy in knowing I've got a long time to- to learn how to be a mom.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你知道，那个小宝宝刚出生—— You know, that little baby comes just-
你不需要第一天就什么都懂。 So you don't have to have it all figured out the first day.
你不用什么都明白。 You don't have to have it all figured out.
其次，我们需要更多年长女性的带领，她们可以陪伴 你，说：「这个问题其实会自己解决。」或者—— Secondly, we need more mentoring of older women who will come alongside and say, "You know, that- that really is some- a problem that's gonna resolve itself," or-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
「你其实需要多关注一下这个问题。」 "You- you actually need to give this a little focus."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
「这个问题可能会变成……」 "This- this- this could become something-"
是的。 Yeah.
…… "...
「你要注意这个。」这样就能有平衡。 you know, that would be a concern," and just giving that balance.
我…… Um, I...
我对女儿和儿媳说，如果哪天特别难熬，就给我打电话， 我会在手机上设闹钟，每小时为你祷告，直到我睡觉。 One of the things I offer my daughter and daughters-in-law is on a really tough day, call me and I will set the alarm on my phone and I will pray for you every hour until I go to bed tonight.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
她们会在一天里不断想起：「妈妈这一小时已经为我祷告了。」 And- and they just notice throughout the day, "Okay, Mom already prayed for me this hour."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
有些日子你会觉得「我不知道怎么熬过去」，但一转眼一天就过去了，你也坚持下来了。 And there are days where you really feel like, "I don't know how I'm gonna get through this," and all of a sudden, it's the end of the day and you did.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我记得读到加尔各答的德兰修女的话，她在美国抱着 一个小宝宝，对他说：「他们为什么这么怕你？」 Um, I- I think, uh, when- when I read what Mother Theresa of Calcutta, Saint Theresa of Calcutta said, she was holding a little baby here in the states and she said to the baby, "Why are they so afraid of you?"
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
是的。 Yeah.
我觉得很多人都有恐惧，无论是因为成长环境不幸 福，还是因为一个小生命如此依赖你让人不安。 And I think there's an- a lot of fear, whether or not people maybe were- were raised in homes that weren't happy or just how unsettling it is to have one little one so dependent on you.
其实，哪怕只有一个孩子，也需要付出很多。 Um, it does demand a lot, even just to have one child.
而且…… And...
但社会并不是这样看的。 But it's not the way our society sees.
社会觉得养孩子代价太大。 Or the way our society sees it is it's- it costs so much.
是一种负担。 A burden.
你知道吗？ You know?
是的。 Yeah.
觉得那是很重的负担。 It's such a burden.
但如果你读圣经，孩子永远都是祝福。 But if you read through sacred scripture, children are only and always a blessing.
没错。 Right.
我记得想到雷吉斯你的家庭，诗篇128篇说到 敬虔的人，妻子和儿女像橄榄栽子围绕桌子。 And I remember, uh, thinking of your family, Regis, uh, with Psalm 128, where it talks about, um, the Godly man who is surrounded, um, by his wife and children like olive shoots around the table.
你们当初并不是说：「我能负担得起——」 You know, you did not set out to say, "Can I afford to have-"
没错，没错。 Right, right.
…… "...
十个孩子吗？」但他们也不是一下子都来的—— 10 children?" But they also didn't all come-
我们有那么多吗？ Did we have that many?
你表情好像在说：「真的吗？」 You got a look on your face like, "Really?"
他们不是同时出生的。 They didn't all come at the same time.
没有一个是一下子来的，幸好如此。 None of them did happily.
没错，没错。 Right, right.
一个一个来，他们彼此帮助。 You know, one at a time, they assist each other.
其实在评估的时候，很多东西都被忽略了—— I mean, there's so much that is missed in evaluating-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
比如用成本效益分析来衡量。 whether or not, you know, the cost-benefit analysis.
我想说，爱是慷慨、丰盛，甚至有点「不理性」的。 And I would say love is generous, lavish, and even just a little ridiculous.
没错。 Right.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
而且…… And- and it's just...
而且你宣布又有新宝宝时，有哪个孩子会说：「又来一个啊」？ And- and what child ever, when you make the announcement that another one's on the way, what child ever says, "Oh, another one"?
那简直是狂欢和喜乐。 I mean, it's pandemonium and joy.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
就像开派对一样。 It's like it's a party, you know?
我们需要庆祝生命。 And we need- we need to celebrate life.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
是的。 Yeah.
我记得我们在家教育超过二十五年，我们的理念就是一年一年来，一个孩子一个孩子来。 You know, I remember when we were homeschooling for more than a quarter of a century, our philosophy was, you know, one year at a time, one kid at a time.
其实也就是一天一天来。 And then what that echoes, one day at a time.
我记得你还分享过智慧，就是「一小时一小时地过」。 But I remember you also sharing the wisdom of it's like one hour at a time.
是的。 Yeah.
有时候甚至要「一分钟一分钟地过」。 One minute at a time, you know?
没错。 Right.
到了上午十点，我们已经用到Z计划了。 Mid-morning, we're already to plan Z.
你原本计划做的事还没开始，结果被各种「干扰」打 断，但这些其实正是你作为妻子和母亲的真实呼召。 You have not implemented that list of things that you had set out to do because of all of the things that appear to be distractions, but really constitute your actual vocation as a wife and a mom.
还有一点，我想说关于《蒙爱与蒙福》和那四本书，我最近和一对夫妇吃午饭 ，你没能来，那位女士分享说，这本书对她意义重大，因为她还在养育孩子。 You know, another thing I want to say about this book, Beloved and Blessed, and all four of them, is, uh, I had lunch recently with a couple, and you weren't able to join us, but, uh, the- the woman shared what meaning it is for her to read this, knowing that, you know, she's still raising her kids.
她对我说：「但金伯莉已经跑完了赛程。」我说：「其实她还没结束呢。」 And she said to me, "But Kimberly has run the race." I'm like, "Well, she's not over," you know?
是的，但她已经作为妻子、母亲、婆婆、祖母养育了孩子。 No, but she has raised the kids as a- a wife and as a mother and now a mother-in-law and as a grandmother.
我觉得这才是重点——你写书不是说「看我多好」，而是要大家从主的话语中学习—— And I think that's what-And it isn't like you're writing and saying, "Just look at me." No, learn from the word of the Lord-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
就像我一样。 as I have.
我想，没有什么比嫁给我更让人沮丧的了。 And, uh, you know, nothing has been more frustrating, I suspect, than being married to me.
还有养育所有的孩子。 And, you know, raising all of the kids.
当然，嫁给你也没有比这更满足的事，但我们也一起经历了那些沮丧。 I mean, nothing is more fulfilling than being married to you, but we've shared those frustrations.
我们一起经历了那些恐惧。 We've shared those fears.
当然。 Sure.
我们一起熬过了许多不眠之夜。 We've shared sleepless nights.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
有时候半夜醒来，满心焦虑和担忧，努力祷告，挣扎着。 You know, and waking up, uh, with all kinds of anxiety and concern, and trying to pray, and struggling.
我们并不是所谓的「圣家」。 It isn't like, you know, we're a holy family.
只有一个圣家，那是在第一世纪，不是—— There was only one, and it was in the first century, not-
…… ...
不是在21世纪。 the 21st century.
是的。 Yeah.
但你一直没有放弃追求圣洁。 But wanting to be holy is something that you have never let go of.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
是的。 Yeah.
这也激励了我。 And that inspires me.
我不想只是做你的丈夫和英雄。 You know, I don't want to just simply be your husband and hero.
我想成为圣徒。 I want to be a saint.
是的。 Yeah.
你又重新点燃了我心中的渴望。 And, and you just re-enkindle that longing in me.
嗯。 Mm.
是的。 Yeah.
因为对你来说，这似乎很自然。 Um, because for you, it comes naturally.
对我来说，只能靠神的恩典。 For me, it only comes supernaturally.
我想，世界上大概没有哪个妻子没偶尔偷偷有过「想把丈夫干掉」的冲动。 I, I don't know that there's a wife anywhere who hasn't harbored from time to time a, a furtive, homicidal, uh, impulse, uh, to simply annihilate her husband.
是的。 Yeah.
但离婚是绝对不可能的。 But, but to divorce him is unthinkable.
那根本不在考虑范围内。 That's off the table.
我们是一起走这条路的。 We're in this together.
这是一场冒险。 It's an adventure.
而神总是带来惊喜。 And God is a god of surprises.
是的。 Yeah.
祂可能会用意想不到的平安来惊喜我们。 He may surprise us with a kind of unexpected peace.
是的。 Yes.
甚至是喜乐。 Bliss, even.
你有一个很棒的例子。 Y- you have a wonderful example.
其实有很多例子，但这个特别突出。 Well, many of them, but, but this stands out in particular.
我记得你流产几周后又怀上了另一个孩子。 I think a couple of weeks after you lost a child, you conceived another.
也许那就是乔？ Ma- maybe that was Joe?
是乔。 It was Joe.
是的。 Yeah.
他有一个很深刻的见解。 And, uh, and he had this piercing insight.
是的。 Yeah.
他说：「你的意思是，如果那个孩子没有失去，我就不会存在？」你说：「是的。」 He said, uh, "You mean, if, if that child had not been lost, then I wouldn't exist." And you say, "Well, that's right.
「你不会。」然后他说：「我很高兴你有了我们两 个，现在我们可以一起庆祝。」这真的很深刻。 You wouldn't." And then he says, "Well, I'm so glad you had both of us, because now there are two that we can celebrate." I mean, that's, that's profound.
是的。 Yeah.
如果不是神用这样意想不到的丰盛祝福你，你不会有这样的领悟和喜悦。 And you would not have had that insight, that sunburst, if, if it hadn't been God surprising you with this unexpected fruitfulness.
很多夫妻可能会说：「算了，我们就此止损吧。」 I mean, a lot of couples would have said, "Look, let's cut our losses.
我们已经够了。 We've had enough.
我们换个活法吧。 Let's try something else.
我们…… Let's...
让我去找份工作，在职场里寻找满足。」但我们没有那样做。 L- let me get a job, find fulfillment, uh, in, in the marketplace." But no.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
也许我们应该再试一次。 Maybe we should try this again.
是的。 Yeah.
我们要对未来保持开放。 We should be open to the future.
我们确实有很多限制。 And, and we have lots of limitations.
真的有。 We really do.
是的。 Yeah.
无论是背景、性格，还是经济状况，等等。 In our, in our backgrounds, our personalities, maybe finances, whatever.
但神能供应我们所需。 But God can provide what we need.
是的。 Yeah.
我很喜欢保罗在哥林多后书12章里遇到瓶颈的那段经文。 And I love that passage where Paul, in, um, 2 Corinthians 12, hits this wall.
他恳求神改变一些事，神说：「我的恩典够你用 的，因为我的能力是在人的软弱上显得完全。」 He's begging God to change something, and he says, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
所以问题不是「我有足够的力量生十个孩子吗？」 So, the question is not, am I strong enough to have 10 children?
是的。 Yeah.
没错。 Right.
流产后我有足够的力量继续对生命开放吗？ Am I strong enough to be open to life after a miscarriage?
我有足够的力量结婚吗？ Am I strong enough even to get married?
其实问题是：我够不够软弱？ It is, am I weak enough?
没错。 Right.
我是否足够软弱，以至于愿意依靠神？ Am I weak enough to then depend on God?
是的。 Yeah.
当然，我们在做榜样时也会失败。 And of course, as we model this, and we will blow it.
我们会用自己的经历教孩子们需要去办告解，也会—— We will model for our children the need to go to confession, as well as-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
展现出美好的领悟和圣洁时刻。 wonderful moments of insight and holiness.
是的。 Yeah.
我们也在为他们指明人生方向，就是拥抱恩典。 We also are pointing them in the direction for their own lives, which is embracing grace.
我觉得现在一个很大的挑战，特别是在社交媒体上 ，尤其是女性，大家常常展现出一种完美的形象。 I think one of the struggles we see, in, particularly in social media, and honestly, maybe more with women, uh, is that what is often presented is this perfect image.
是的。 Yeah.
当然。 Sure.
我总说，把镜头转过来，你就能看到混乱的真实。 And, and I always say, turn the camera around, and you can see the chaos.
那你会怎么回应这种现象？ But maybe just, how do you speak to that?
是的。 Yeah.
还有比较心理。 And then a comparison.
是的。 Yes.
「我不像她们那样」，我觉得这…… And, and I'm not like them, and I think there's...
是的，因为人们会…… Yes, because people will treat...
我记得有位女士来我家。 Ad- I mean, I remember one woman coming by my home.
那天早上十一点半。 I was, 11:30 in the morning.
我还穿着睡袍，她说：「金伯莉还穿着睡袍。」我说：「是的。」 她说：「你从神坛上掉下来了。」我说：「那就让我下来吧。」 I was still in my bathrobe, and she goes, "Well, Kimberly Ons in her bathrobe." And I said, "Yes." And she said, "You, you just fell off your pedestal." And I said, "Then let me be off that pedestal."
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
谁让我要站在神坛上的？ Who asked to get on there in the first place?
对吧？ Okay?
是的，没错。 Yeah, exactly.
我们需要榜样。 We need models.
是的。 Yeah.
我能理解这一点。 So, I can appreciate that.
但同时，也没有完美的妻子和母亲—— But at the same time, there isn't a perfect wife and mom-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
除了圣母和我们可以仰望的圣人。 apart from the Blessed Mother and the saints that we can look up with.
你知道，丘吉尔有时凌晨三四点还穿着睡袍。 You know, Churchill was in his bathrobe till about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning.
是的。 Yeah.
他还抽空赢得了一场战争。 Found the time to win a war.
但有时候那句经文「爱里没有惧怕，爱既完全，就把 惧怕除去」会让人有压力，会想：我的爱够完全吗？ But it is sort of intimidating, that, that, that, that scripture passage, "Perfect love casts out fear." And you think to yourself, is my love perfect enough?
但其实，这不是关于你自己。 But really, it's not about you.
基督才是完全的爱。 Christ is perfect love.
让祂来除去你的惧怕。 Let him cast out the fear.
是的。 Yeah.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我想再谈谈恐惧，因为我们刚才休息时也聊到这个。 And, and if I could just speak to the fear aspect, 'cause we were talking on the break about that.
这次新冠疫情在很多方面都很特殊。通常人们经历重大危机，比如龙卷风、飓风、地震—— This crisis of COVID is, seems to be somewhat unique in a variety of ways, but a key one is typically when people go through a major crisis, like a tornado, a hurricane, uh, an earthquake-
暴风雪。 Blizzard.
…… ...
暴风雪过后九个月，医院里会有很多「暴风雪宝宝」。 a blizzard, they'll say nine months later, they're seeing all these babies at the hospital that are blizzard babies, you know?
但这次新冠疫情，大家在家待了好几个月，结果人口反而下降了。 Here, we had COVID, where people were home for months and months together, and they're seeing a decline in population from one side of COVID to where we are right now.
我想说，不要让恐惧—— And I guess I just want to say, don't let fear-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
成为你做决定的动力…… be what motivates you...
或者让你瘫痪，是的。 Or paralyzes you, yeah.
…… ...
或者让你动弹不得。 or, or paralyzes you.
要以信心为引导。 Lead with faith.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
其实我们从来没有遇到过「完美的时机」—— Uh, we've never, we've never had the perfect time-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
要生孩子。 to have a child.
如果你一直在玩手机、沉迷网络空间，你大概也不会去亲密、也不会生孩子。 Well, if you're on a smartphone, lost in cyberspace, you're not likely to be making love, making babies.
这样的人其实没有未来。 You know, these people have no future.
这其实让人变得「绝育」。 It's, it's sterilizing.
也让人变得麻木。 It's also paralyzing.
我觉得那种恐惧…… I think that fear...
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
已经压倒、击垮了太多人，让他们真的害怕未来。 has so overwhelmed, so disarmed so many people that they're literally afraid of the future.
这就是神经症。 That's what neurosis is.
是的。 Yeah.
他们需要心理治疗。 They need therapy.
我要说一句可能有点冒险的话，我记得读过圣托马斯·阿奎那说，女性有虚荣的倾向。 I'm gonna say something rather risky, because I, I remember reading in Saint Thomas Aquinas that, you know, there's a tendency of women toward vainglory.
就是虚荣心，你懂的。 Uh, vanity, you know?
我怀疑这就是整个化妆品行业的源头。 And I suspect that is the wellspring for the whole cosmetic industry.
因为我们需要榜样，但我们不需要那些走在—— Because, you know, we need models, but we didn't, don't need models walking down, you know, that-
T台上的—— Runway.
…… ...
T台上的模特。 runway, yeah.
我们不需要封面女郎。 W- we don't need cover girls.
我们真正该仰望的，是自己的母亲、祖母，或者敬虔的女性。 Um, you know, what we, what we recognize is that, um, we ought to be looking to our own mothers or to our grandmothers or to a woman of God.
你知道， You know, I...
…… ...
我记得和你一起在小屋里和葛培理博士夫妇坐在一起—— I remember sitting with you in the cabin with Dr. Billy Graham and Ruth-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
聊了几个小时。 for a few hours.
那是很美好的时光。 It was an amazing time.
那是一个令人陶醉的下午。 It was an enchanted afternoon.
但他们非常平易近人。 But they were so down to earth, you know?
是的。 Yeah.
当我还是新教牧师时，他是我的榜样，而她肯定也是你的榜样。 And he was a model for me at the time when I was a Protestant minister, and she was a model for you, I'm sure.
回应你刚才说的，大家都知道她有一句名言：「他有时一走就是 好几周、好几个月，你有没有想过离婚？」她说：「从没想过。 You know, and to echo what you said a few minutes ago, you know, she's famously quoted as saying, you know, "He was gone sometimes for weeks and months, you know, did you ever think of divorcing him?" She said, "It never crossed my mind.
想过开枪打他倒是有。」 Shooting him, yes."
是的。 Yes.
这些沮丧都是真实存在的—— You know, the frustrations are real-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
尤其是当分离或紧张出现时。 and especially when the absences or the tensions are there.
是的。 Yeah.
但榜样的意义不是「我看起来怎么样」。 But the idea of modeling is not about, "How do I look?" You know.
说实话，我不能代表所有男性，但我觉得大多数男人并不在意你化了多少妆。 Because frankly, I, I can't speak for all men, but I think most men don't really care how much makeup you have, you know?
其实更多是「我和其他女人比起来怎么样？」其实应该停下来想一想。 It has much more to do with, you know, "How do I look compared to other women?" You know, it's like, "Timeout.
放下这些吧。 Get over it."
其实根本没有—— It's like, "There is not a-"
这种比较完全没有意义，而且…… That comparison is just so futile and so...
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
你明白吗？ you know?
你总会发现，总有人做饭比你好，打扫比你好—— And you'll always find, I find, y- you will always, y- you know, find a woman who cooks better than you, who cleans-
没错。 Right.
…… ...
比你更会做家务，比你更会做任何事。 better than you, who, who does anything better than you.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以你要么学会「我能向她学什么？」要么…… And so either your takeaway is, "What can I learn from her?" Or...
我要怎么—— How do I-
我不够好。 I'm not enough.
或者说：「我不够好。」 Or, "I'm not enough."
是的。 Yeah.
没错。 Right.
其实—— And it, it's like-
很公正。 Very fair.
…… ...
是的。 yes.
是的。 Yeah.
而且神从未犯错。 And God, again, has not made a mistake.
你是独一无二的。 You are unique.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你的婚姻也是独特的。 Your marriage is unique.
是的。 Yeah.
你的孩子也是独特的。 Your children are unique.
对外表「修饰」的执着其实是一种不健康的执念。 The, the, the, the fixation on what you might call cosmetic reconstruction is really obsessive and it's unhealthy.
比如我自己，我最喜欢我妻子的，是她的笑容。 I mean, my, my own wife, the thing that I'm looking for in her is a smile.
是的。 Oh, yeah.
只要她展现出这个笑容。 If she bestows this smile.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
其实我觉得，如果她擦了口红或腮红，反而会让那个笑容失色。 I- in fact, that smile is, I think, diminished if she's wearing lipstick or rouge.
那些都是干扰，神造的本来面容才最美。 Th- th- those are all distractions, but the face that God made.
是的。 Yeah.
那才是我最看重的。 That's what I'm looking for.
是的。 Yes.
而且她就有。 And it's there.
她真的很美。 And she is beautiful.
是的。 Yeah.
绝对如此。 Absolutely.
我觉得最近发生了很多事，尤其是关于婚姻和婚 姻的本质，作为讲道者，我其实很喜欢谈这些。 And I think so many things have gone on recently, w- particularly in marriage and what is marriage, and I actually as a preacher, I've, uh, liked that.
这让我可以更多地讲—— It's allowed me to preach more-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
关于什么是婚姻，以及基督徒婚姻的独特之处—— about what is marriage and what is uniquely-
嗯。 Mm.
…… ...
基督徒婚姻的独特性。 uh, unique about Christian marriage.
司各特你多次提到，我也深信，婚姻本质上是超自然的。 And you've said a couple of times, Scott, and I believe it's fundamentally true, and that is, it is, it is supernatural.
确实如此。 It is.
主邀请你们和配偶、家庭一起做的事，就是超自然的。 It's simply what the Lord is inviting you guys to do with your spouses and your families is supernatural.
我想到教理讲到婚姻时说，圣灵随时都在—— And I'm reminded what the catechism says about marriage, that the Holy Spirit is ever available-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
与夫妻同在。 to the couple.
你能不能谈谈，在困难时刻，神的灵是如何—— And, and maybe just speak to that, how the Spirit of God, in moments of difficulty-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
临在你身边并帮助你的？ has been present to you and helped you.
是的。 Yes.
无论是难以言喻的喜乐—— So in moments of unspeakable joy-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
还是极大的悲伤，我都会想到罗马书第8章，圣灵替我们向父 神代求，把我们无法表达的深刻喜乐或悲伤都带到神面前。 and in great grief and sorrow, I, I, I call on that Romans 8 passage where the Holy Spirit interprets, interprets our very spirit to the Father, and, and, and puts into words what I don't know how to articulate, whether it's v- very deep joy or very deep sorrow.
只要我们停下来，圣灵就会帮助我们换个角度看问题，让我们用祂的眼光看待 让我们失望的孩子，然后施予恩典，让我能向那个孩子反映出圣灵的样式。 Um, He enables us, if we pause, to give us perspective, to, to look at the child who's just disappointed us and to be able to look at that child through his eyes and to then extend grace so that I can reflect the Holy Spirit to that particular child.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
还有很多时候，我看到圣灵在混乱中带来平安、喜乐和秩序。 Um, and then all of the ways in which I see the Holy Spirit bringing peace and joy and order out of the chaos, you know?
这—— It's-
太好了。 That's great.
这就是我们在家里可以做的。 That's what we can do in our homes.
是的。 Yeah.
我觉得有很多方式—— I think there are a lot of ways-
阿们。 Amen.
…… ...
去分享圣灵的同在。 to share the Holy Spirit.
接下来，我们的嘉宾和小组成员将分享他们关于家庭生活圣经智慧的最后感想。 And up next, our panel and our guests will share their final thoughts on biblical wisdom for family life.
请继续收看。 Stay with us.
金伯莉提到的一个非常重要的话题，就是女性常常互相比较，这让她们对自己没有安全感。 An important topic that Kimberly brought up that I feel was very vital was the fact that women very often compare themselves to each other, and that it makes them feel insecure in themselves.
但我觉得她说得很好，与其自卑或难过，不如向其他女性学习。 But I really thought that it was wonderful that she pointed out that instead of feeling low or feeling bad about yourself, it's important to learn from other women.
我从金伯莉的话中得到的一个重要启发，就是她强 调姊妹情谊，即使作为学生，现在也可以活出来。 An important takeaway I received from what Kimberly had to say was her emphasis on sisterhood and how we can live that now even as students.
这意味着要关心身边的姊妹，也要学会接受姊妹们的帮助。 Um, and, and that means taking care of your fellow sisters, um, but as well as receiving help from your sisters.
我觉得这是一个很重要、很少听到的观点，而且我们作为学生现在就可以做到。 Um, and I think it was a really important point that I haven't really heard that often, um, and it's something that we could do right now as students.
有一个地方，教育从这里开始，信仰与理性在这里相遇。 There is a place where education begins and faith and reason connect.
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我们的神学、教理、商科、教育等专业的全职教授为 你授课，让你无需改变生活方式就能获得硕士学位。 With online degrees taught by full-time professors in theology, catechists, business, education, and other disciplines, you can earn your master's degree online without changing your lifestyle.
欢迎访问franciscan.edu，了解更多信息，让你的信仰与事业在网上相遇。 Find out more today at franciscan.edu, where your faith and career can connect online.
欢迎回到「方济各大学讲坛」。 Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
我们进入最后一个环节。 We've come to our final segment.
雷吉斯，你能不能先分享一下你的总结？ So Regis, if you could start us off with some final thoughts.
好的。 Yeah.
金伯莉，非常感谢你写了这本书，也感谢你用生命、婚姻和家庭做出的见证。 Uh, Kimberly, thank you so much for, for this book and for your life, the witness of your, your life, your marriage, your family.
有些人可能会觉得你简直完美得不可思议。 Um, some people, I, I think, might regard you as impossibly perfect.
他们会想，我怎么能—— Um, and, and, you know, how can I-
你去问问我丈夫吧。 Tell my husband.
或者问我的神师。 Or your confessor.
我们等会儿让孩子们进来。 We'll have the kids come in next.
或者问我的神师或我的孩子们。 Or my confessor or my children.
大家会想：「我怎么能接近这样的理想榜样——」 You know, "How can I begin to approach this paradigm of, uh-"
是的。 Yeah.
…… "...
成为理想的妻子和母亲？」 of the ideal wife and mother?
「那我就放弃吧。」但其实，整本书最打动我的是你一次次跪下祷告的时刻。 So I'll just give it up." But in fact, what struck me throughout the book were the times that you fell to your knees.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
有一个很可爱的例子，应该是加百列。 Uh, one endearing example is, i- it may have been, uh, Gabriel.
我可能记错了，但你经常需要管教那些男孩们。 I, I, I could be mistaken, but you, you have to discipline all of those boys much of the time.
有一次—— And this particular occasion- ...
你让他离开房间，等他回来时他说：「我不想去天堂。」 you sent him out of his room, and when he comes back, he says, "I don't want to go to heaven."
是的。 Yeah.
你问：「这和现在有什么关系？」他说：「因为 如果我去了天堂，就要和你永远在一起。」…… And you say, "What does that have to do with anything?" And he says, "Because if I go, I would have to spend eternity with you." ...
这让你当场跪了下来。 I mean, it, it dropped you to your knees.
真的很让人谦卑。 It was so humbling.
那是一个很感人的时刻。 That wa- that was a moving moment.
让我用一个小故事结尾，因为我太太今天没来。 Um, let me, let me end with, with this, uh, uh, little, uh, vignette, because my wife isn't here.
她有点像多余的第五个轮子，但她的心和我们在一起。有一天晚上我们一起吃饭，她 问我：「你最喜欢的德行是什么？」我立刻说：「希望。」我还描述了佩吉笔下那个 小女孩的形象，她走在两位姐姐——信心和仁爱——中间，大家都以为这个瘦弱的孩 子很无助，需要信心和仁爱扶持，其实是希望在承担着另外两种德行的重担。 She's sort of like the fifth wheel, but she's here in spirit, and, uh, she and I had dinner the other night, and, uh, she turned to me and said, "What is your favorite virtue?" And, uh, instantly, I said, "The virtue of hope." And I, I, I described the image of the little girl that, uh, Peggy exclaims about who walks down the boulevard between her two big sisters, and everybody thinks this frail child, uh, is, is helpless, and Faith and Charity have to sustain her, when in fact it's Hope who shoulders the burden of these other two virtues.
我给她讲了一番关于希望的道理，然后问她：「亲爱 的，你最喜欢的德行是什么？」她说：「怜悯。」 So, I gave her a little disquisition on hope, and then I said, "Well, darling, what's your favorite virtue?" And she said, "Compassion."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
她说：「我觉得耶稣最特别的地方，是神亲自来到这个世界，就 是为了能够为祂所造的孩子们流泪、哭泣。」这让我非常感动。 And she said, "What I really think about Jesus is God came all the way into this world so that He might weep, so that He might cry, uh, for the children that, that He created." I mean, that, that just blew me away.
这真的很震撼。 That is astounding.
祂靠我们如此之近，甚至会为我们流泪。 He comes so close to us that he, that he has tears.
比如拉撒路的故事，耶稣，道，永恒的神子，因为朋友去世而哭泣。 I mean, what, what, you know, th- the episode with Lazarus, here is Jesus, the Word, the eternal Son of God, weeping because his friend has died.
这就是怜悯，就是与人一同受苦。 That's compassion and suffering with.
我觉得父母也被期望成为神之泪的延伸。 And I think that's what mothers and fathers are expected to do, to be this extension of, of the tears of God.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
谢谢你。 Thank you.
谢谢你，雷吉斯。 Thank you, Regis.
司各特？ Scott?
我觉得自己像特维耶，一方面这样，一方面那样。 I feel like Tevye, you know, on the one hand, on the other hand.
一方面，很多人会问我：「和她结婚是什么感觉？」 On, on the one hand, you know, people come up to me and say, "What's it like to be married to her," you know?
「我读过她的书，听过她的讲座。」 "Uh, I've read her books, I've heard her talks," you know?
我会说：「你们根本不知道。 And what I say is, "You have no idea.
你们以为她只是写出来、讲出来，其实她更是活出来的，能娶到她真是我的荣耀。 You think she, she's, she's lived it out, you know, more than she's written it up and she's spoken," and so it really is an honor.
她不是完美的，但我可以说，能拥有你是我最大的祝福。 She's not perfect, but I tell ya, I am perfectly blessed to have you.
但另一方面，这个过程花了我很多年。 And yet at the, on the other hand, it, it took me years.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我到现在还在学习，但我记得，真的花了十年，直到有一天吵架后我脱 口而出：「我从来没有因为信任你而错过，也从来没有因为不信任你而 做对过。」即使我用逻辑推理证明你错了、我对了，最后还是我更错。 A- a- and I'm still learning this, but I remember it took me really 10 years before I finally blurted out one day after a stupid fight, "I've never gone wrong trusting you, and I've never done right distrusting you." Even when I could prove through a syllogism that you're wrong and I'm right, I ended up being more wrong, you know?
突然发现、又不断重新发现这一点。 And to suddenly discover and then to rediscover it, you know?
我得承认，我已经学了上百次：我们不是竞争对手。 And I'm ashamed to say hundreds of times I've had to relearn this, that we're not competition, you know?
我们其实…… We are, you know...
我们是一支队伍。 We're on the same team.
这种重新发现让我很兴奋。 And, uh, you know, that rediscovery is, for me, so exciting.
但我也得承认，很多丈夫、父亲很容易被强势女性吓到。 But at the same time, I, I have to admit that talking to husbands, men who are fathers and all of that, they're easily threatened by strong women.
其实不是「被威胁」。 It's like, "Threatened?
而是「你被成全了」。 You're completed," you know?
「别太自我了。」你对我的约束不是威胁，而是让我更完整。 "Get over yourself." And, you know, I'm not threatened by your restraints, I'm completed.
我们也不会被五个儿子和一个女儿吓倒。 You know, we're not threatened by our five sons and our one daughter, you know?
迈克尔不仅比我聪明、自律、有德行。 The fact that Michael's not only more intelligent, more disciplined, and more virtuous than me.
我为此感到无比感恩和自豪。 I couldn't be more grateful and proud of all of that.
所以我觉得，一旦我们明白了这一点，正如蒂尔曼博士说的，我们彼此配得对方。 And, and so I, I think that once we recognize that, as Dr. Thielman said, we deserve each other.
其实我们都不配。 You know we didn't.
我永远配不上你。 I never could deserve you.
但我们需要彼此，互补、成全彼此。 But we need each other, and we complement each other, and we complete each other.
这从不容易，但总是有果效的。 But it's never easy, but it's always fruitful.
所以，「耶和华啊，不要归荣耀给我们，不要归荣 耀给我们，要因你的慈爱和诚实归在你的名下。」 And so, not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory.
阿们。 Amen.
谢谢你，司各特。 Thanks, Scott.
好的。 Yeah.
金伯莉，你的最后总结。 Kimberly, your final thoughts.
我有几点想法。 Yeah, just a couple of thoughts.
第一，我一直很受安慰的是，箴言31章最后说她的 儿女起来称她有福，这意味着这是多年以后的事。 One, I've always taken great, uh, consolation in the fact that at the end of Proverbs 31, her children rise up and call her blessed, and that means that's years down the road.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
所以还有很多时间。 And so there's a lot of time.
有很多时间可以让事情慢慢步入正轨，无论是时间管理、家庭管理，还是其他方面。 There's a lot of time to, to get things better on track, to better time management, home management, everything.
所以要给自己一些时间，也要领受神赐下的恩典。 Um, so give yourself the time and the grace that God gives you.
要对自己有耐心。 Be patient with yourself.
第二，我呼吁年长的女性多陪伴年轻的女性，想办法支持、 鼓励她们，比如送一顿饭，或者让她们的孩子来家里玩。 And secondly, a call to older women to come alongside the younger women to find those ways to support, encourage, um, maybe take over a meal, maybe offer to have the children come over to the house.
我很期待不久后能有更多「现场」做祖母的机会—— And, uh, I'm so looking forward to more on-site grandparenting soon-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
因为哈拿一家要搬回我们附近，我可以看看自己能做 哪些小事，来帮助他们应对日常家庭生活的压力。 um, with Hannah's family moving back to our area and seeing what small things I can do to help with just the, the pressures of normal family life.
当然。 Sure.
你明白吗？ You know?
很好。 Good.
这样可以增加喜乐，减少一些挑战。 And, and then increase the joy, decrease some of the challenge.
是的。 Yeah.
非常感谢你。 Well, thank you so much.
好的。 Yeah.
如果你想了解更多今天的话题，我们有一篇金伯莉为我 们写的文章，讲的是优先次序和如何安排优先次序。 Uh, if you'd like to learn more about today's topic, we have an article that Kimberly's done for us on, uh, priorities and how you settle priorities.
这篇文章是金伯莉写的。 It was written by Kimberly.
只要你上 faithandreason.com 网站，或者拨打屏幕下方的电话，就可以免费获得。 It's yours free if you simply go online to faithandreason.com or call the number you're gonna see at the screen below.
在这次谈话中，我一直在想我的妈妈，这很自然，对吧？ Uh, as in, in much of this conversation and discussion, I've been thinking obviously about my mom, and it would seem reasonable, right?
是的。 Yeah.
我会想到我的妈妈，然后—— That I think about my mom, and-
当然。 Sure.
…… ...
我确实一直在想…… and I have, I think...
也许我父亲是我最好的朋友，他一直是我生命中的磐石，我能成 为今天的我有他的原因，但也很大程度上是因为我的母亲—— Perhaps my father's my best friend, and he's just been just such a rock in my life, um, and I am because of him, but I'm also very much because of my mother, and-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
我亲眼看到妈妈与多发性硬化症抗争。 and just being able to see my mom, my mom struggles with MS.
哇。 Wow.
在某些方面，她是我认识的最坚强的女性。 And in some ways she's the toughest lady I know.
但我也反思自己作为神父的身份。 But, uh, I just reflect on, on who I am as a priest.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我们常常强调神父的阳刚，但其实，是母亲那种女性的…… And, and, and oftentimes I think we focus on perhaps the manliness of a priest, but it was, it was the feminine......
关怀、爱和挂念改变了我。 caring and love, and concern that my mother had for me that was, it was transformative.
我的父母决定让妈妈不去外面工作。 My parents made the decision, uh, to not have my mom work outside of the house.
我们家有五个男孩和一个女孩，—— And there were five boys and one girl in my family, and-
哦。 Oh.
…… ...
妈妈真的很了不起，能回家有她在让我很安心。 and, uh, she was amazing, and, and being able to come home and rest with that.
我很感恩她教会了我什么是男子汉，其实我们可以从母亲身上学到做男人的意义。 And, and I'm just so grateful for the ways that she taught me, uh, what it is to be a man, and, and it's, we can learn what it is to be a man by our moms.
嗯。 Hmm.
也学会了什么是爱，什么是宽恕。 And, and what it is to love, and, and how it is to forgive.
我常常分享的一个故事是，有一次家庭祷告夜，爸爸妈妈说主是 他们生命的中心，他们彼此的关系排在第二，我们孩子排第三。 And I think, I, I always share, uh, one of the greatest stories that I have is, uh, we were having a family night, a family prayer time, and my mom and dad were sharing, uh, that the Lord was the center of their life, and that their relationship with one another was next, and we come in third place.
小时候会想：「谁愿意排第三啊？」 And as a kid, it's like, "Who wants to be third," right?
但现在我明白，父母给我最大的礼物—— And I now understand that the greatest gift my mom and dad gave me-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
就是这个。 was that.
没错。 Yes.
就是这个。 Was that.
第三位。 Third place.
他们用生命做榜样，让我知道基督必须是我生命的中心。 They, they, they modeled for me that Christ has to be in the center of my life.
他是我们家庭的中心，我亲眼见证了这一点。 And, and he was the center of my family's life, and, and I saw that lived out.
还有一点很美，就是我的父母也活出了软弱。 The other thing that was beautiful was, um, my mother and father living out weakness.
我记得爸爸妈妈会向我们孩子道歉，这很美，因为他们并不总是对的。 And, and I remember mom and dad apologizing to the kids, and there was something beautiful about that, that they didn't always have to have it right.
我记得全家一起去办告解，爸爸妈妈也在排队。 I remember going as a family, and mom and dad in line for confession.
嗯。 Hmm.
我们全家一起做这件事。 That, that we were doing this.
那种感觉就是我们全家一起走这条路，是和主一起同行。 There was a sense that we were doing this family thing together, and it was with the Lord in the manner.
这真是莫大的恩典。 And it just, a great grace.
非常感谢你的邀请，也感谢你邀请我们今天一起祷告和反思。 So for your invitation, and, and your inviting us to pray and reflect about that today, we're very, very grateful.
我们希望大家都知道，你们都在我们的祷告中。 So we want everyone to know that you are in our prayers.
家庭生活既美好又蒙福，同时也有困难和挣扎，所以我们现在要为所有家庭祷告。 Uh, family life is wonderful and blessed, and difficult, and a struggle, so we just offer a prayer now for all of the families out there.
天父，我们感谢你对我们的爱，感谢你按名召我 们，感谢你用恩典和膏抹使我们与你建立关系。 Heavenly Father, we thank you for your love for us, and we thank you that you have called us by name, and that by your grace, and by your anointing, uh, you have brought us into relationship with you.
我们感谢你的儿子耶稣，他救赎了我们，拯救了我们。 We thank you for your Son, Jesus, who has saved us and redeemed us.
父啊，我求你赐福所有女性、所有母亲、所有配偶、所有孩子和孙辈，让他们都能 认识你的爱与平安，感受到你的看顾和保护，也求你继续将生命的气息赐给他们。 Father, I ask your blessing upon all women, uh, all mothers, all spouses, all children, grandchildren, that they know your love and your peace, your care and your protection, and that you continue to breathe life in them.
愿全能的神——圣父、圣子、圣灵——赐福给他们。 I ask Almighty God to bless them, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
阿们。 Amen.
谢谢。 Thank you.
阿们。 Amen.
谢谢。 Thank you.
谢谢。 Thanks.
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你也可以发邮件到 presents@franciscan.edu 索取讲义，或者拨打 800-783-6447 电话索取今天的讲义。 Or request a handout by emailing us at presents@franciscan.edu, or reach us by phone for today's handout by calling 800-783-6447.
就是 800-783-6447。 That's 800-783-6447.