Transcript

Recently, I was out to dinner with a couple couples, and one of those couples was a great, uh, had a great Protestant who loves scripture and he asked us, How, how do you Catholics why do you Catholics make such a big deal out of Mary?

And, you know, I know from the Protestant perspective, you've probably heard that question before.

Protestants think, Well, this Marian devotion is distracting us from devotion to Jesus Christ.

And so one of the things I did was I started going to a couple biblical passages and showing how scripture is devoted to Mary and that scripture shows that Mary has a important role in the kingdom of God and in Jesus' plan of salvation.

And he was blown away at the end of that conversation, saying, I have asked Catholics many, many times and I've never gotten an answer that led me into the word of God and taught me the word of God like that before.

And that's what we're gonna talk about tonight, how Mary and Marian devotion is deeply biblical, but more importantly, it leads us to Jesus Christ.

Joining me tonight as a special guest is Dr. Brant Pitre, who is a professor of scripture here at the Augustinian Institute and a renowned biblical scholar.

He's written many, many academic books as well as many, many popular books.

You might have seen some of his Lectio Bible studies on Forms.

And he has a new Lectio Bible study out, uh, Lectio Mary: uh, The Bible and the Mother of God.

And I love what you do here, Brant, in this study, is you really dive deeply into Mary-

Mm-hmm.

through scripture and showing the biblical roots of Marian devotion, which so many Catholics don't know, not to mention Protestants.

Absolutely.

Yeah, no, this is, uh when we were talking about future Lectio projects, this was one that was very close to my heart because in my own experience as a cradle Catholic, I grew up knowing what to believe about Mary.

Mm-hmm.

I also grew up practicing certain devotions to Mary, like the rosary.

Um, but I didn't know why-

Yeah.

we believed those things, and certainly didn't know where they were grounded in sacred scripture.

So, um, over the years, especially as I began to study more not just of the New Testament, but of the Old Testament background, as well as ancient Jewish traditions about the mother, uh, about the Messiah and about his mother, which there are some-

Yeah.

um, it became, it gradually dawned on me that one of the reasons so many Christians and s- also so many Catholics-

Yeah.

can't see clearly the biblical foundations of what we believe about Mary or various Marian devotions is because we're looking at the New Testament, uh, passages that relate to Mary, which are, you know, they're, they're substantial, but they're not anywhere near as, as many as about Jesus or about Peter.

But we-

Yes.

tend to look at those passages in isolation.

Yeah.

Right?

So if you're looking for, like, the phrase Immaculate Conception in the New Testament, you're not gonna find it.

Yep.

If you're looking for an account of Bo- Mary's bodily assumption into heaven, you're not gonna find it.

If you're, uh, looking for an explicit statement about her perpetual virginity, you're actually gonna find passages that look like they contradict it, like mentions of the brothers of Jesus.

And what I discovered is every time there's a major Marian belief that Catholics have, if we look at the New Testament in light of the Old Testament-

Mm-hmm.

and in light of ancient Christian writings, the early church fathers, we put it in that broader context, all of a sudden it becomes really clear that what Catholics believe about Mary is not only deeply biblical, but based on what we believe about Christ.

You know, that method is so simple, but so profound, Brant.

You know, the idea that you take the New Testament in the context of the Old Testament-

Right.

and there's a reason why God waits to reveal the New.

He's preparing for the New-

Yeah.

through the Old Testament re- revelation.

Absolutely.

And that's so important to understand the new, but then to see how the first Christians in those first several centuries-

Yeah.

how they pa- passing on the episodic tradition understood that New Testament.

You put both those together and you get a very Catholic read, don't you?

That's no, it's absolutely the case.

Um, in fact, one of the things, um, I find most exciting about this particular Bible study, uh, this Lectio on Mary, was how m- how deeply Catholic ancient Christian beliefs about Mary were-

Mm-hmm.

and how deeply biblical they were.

Yeah.

Uh, and it's precise because ancient Christians, unlike a lot of modern Christians who tend to like the New Testament, but not like the Old Testament so much because it's, it's old and it's long and it's difficult.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they read the whole Bible and wh- and as I show in my book on Mary as well and in this series, um, those ancient Christian beliefs about Mary's sinlessness, about her bodily assumption into heaven, about her perpetual virginity are very, very Catholic.

And not just in ancient Latin Christianity in the west, but Eastern Christianity as well.

You know, it, it, that idea th- how many of the church fathers say these doctrines-

Yeah.

I remember I love to take, take people on pilgrimage to the Holy Land-

Uh-huh.

and when you go to the Basilica of the Annunciation and you're going up from the lower crypt where the annunciation happened-

Uh-huh.

and you're walking the stairwell up to the upper crypt, there's a, on the wall in Latin-

Mm-hmm.

which, or, or Greek, is the phrases of the Latin and Greek fathers in the original language-

Oh, wow.

about Our Lady.

What?

Oh, wow.

And so people always ask me, What does that say?

What does that say?

And then you I love to show them, this is an early church father who's talking about our, the Blessed Mother.

Wow.

That's fantastic.

And you see what these early Christians say about Our Lady, which is a powerful testimony.

It is.

And, and, and, um, the reason they saw it, to restate the point, is because they recognize That you have to read the Old, the New Testament in light of the Old.

Now, I think most Christians, m- like most Protestant Christians, would, would admit, Well, of course you need to do that when we're talking about Christ.

Mm-hmm.

So for example, uh, Catholics and Protestants will agree that Jesus isn't just the Messiah, he's also the new Adam, right?

Yeah.

He, he fulfills that prefiguration of Adam in the Old Testament.

He's a new David, right?

He's a new king who has come to inaugurate a kingdom.

He's also a new Solomon, who's greater than Solomon and brings us the wisdom.

So lots of Christians can-

New Isaac.

Yeah, new Isaac, new, new-

And if you don't know the Is- story of Isaac carrying the wood up the mountain-

The-

you miss what's going on with Jesus.

Yeah.

Yeah, you miss what's going on with the cross.

So lots of Christians are familiar with typology-

Mm-hmm.

the study of Old Testament types or prefigurations and their New Testament fulfillments when it comes to Jesus.

But what they don't realize, many don't realize, is that Jesus isn't the only person who's prefigured in the Old Testament.

Wow.

Mary is also prefigured in the Old Testament.

So, uh, that not only does the New Testament reveal that Jesus is the new Adam, it also reveals that Mary is the new Eve.

Wow.

And th- it doesn't just reveal that Jesus is the manna, the new manna from heaven, like in John chapter six, it also reveals that Mary is the new Ark-

Ark.

of the Covenant that contained the manna.

Yeah.

So what I do in the Lectio series is work through these various types.

Mm-hmm.

These prefigurations of Mary in the Old Testament.

Eve, um, the Ark of the Covenant, the Queen Mother-

Mm-hmm.

uh, Rachel.

Mm-hmm.

And I show how these various women as well as events and, and, and elements like the ark are not just part of salvation history.

They point forward to and are fulfilled in Mary.

And when you begin to do this typology, not just with Jesus but with Mary, it's very exciting and it leads to Catholic conclusions.

I love that and, and I wanna invite everybody to join us on the text line.

So you can join by just texting your questions for Dr. Petree and myself, uh, at 720-650-0100 and just put your name and what your question is and join our conversation.

We want you to be part of this.

Mm-hmm.

And that's always part of, uh, our show here at the Augustine Institute.

So Brant, let's just, I mean, you, you give us a, a list of great things.

Yeah, sure.

Sure.

Uh, uh, great typologies.

And what I love about your Bible study and your book is that you're very systematic, right?

You start with-

I have a lot of German in me.

Yeah.

So I like, I like things to be ordered .

I love the order though.

It's so great for people to learn as they walk through You're walking them through scripture with the major types with Mary.

So let's just start with Eve.

Okay.

Uh, h- you know, um, 'cause o- obviously Eve is really important and, and Paul is always talking about Jesus as the new Adam, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

You get that in Romans, you get it in Corinthians.

Right.

I mean, it's so important that Jesus i- that for Paul, Jesus is the whole new Adam and therefore a whole new humanity.

Right.

Now, how do we understand that Mary is in God's plan a new Eve?

Yeah.

Um, well there are several texts in the New Testament-

Mm-hmm.

that would point to this, but for me, uh, the place I like to start with is the Gospel of John.

This is really where it's clearest in two key episodes where Mary appears, the wedding at Cana and then the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross.

And one of the things you'll notice about both those episodes, it- that's strange, that's unusual, is that Jesus, when he speaks to Mary, doesn't call her Mary and he doesn't call her mother.

Mm-hmm.

He calls her woman.

He addresses her as gune in Greek, wo- the w- word woman.

And i- and when you're reading as a English speaker you think, Oh man, this sounds rude.

Right?

Yeah.

It sounds like Jesus is dishonoring his mother, right?

Because I know if I called my mother woman-

.

it would not be good.

Right?

It wouldn't go over well.

Right mom?

It wouldn't be good.

But, but whenever you see something strange like that i- in context it's almost invariably some key to unlocking it in the Old Testament.

Well, if you look back to the Old Testament, the Book of Genesis, chapter one and two, although we always think of her as Eve, which she is named in Genesis chapter three, that's actually not the primary way of referring to the first woman.

Yeah.

12 times before that in Genesis 2 she's called woman, woman, woman, woman, over and over again.

So that in a sense the word woman is the principle name for the first woman of the first creation.

Mm-hmm.

Eve, right?

So when you look at, um, the Gospel of John, there's a lot of, uh, detail I can't go into right now, but basically the first couple of chapters of John are actually modeled on the Book of Genesis.

It begins with the words In the beginning, just like Genesis.

And it kind of culminates in the miracle of the wedding at Cana.

Mm-hmm.

So when Jesus is being revealed in, in John chapter one as the one who's going to bring a new creation, who's like the new Adam, and then he calls his mother gune, woman-

Yeah.

the same word used to refer to Eve, since ancient times Christian readers and modern scholars have recognized what is happening is that Jesus isn't just being revealed as the new Adam who's gonna bring a new creation, but Mary is the new Eve.

I love that.

Yeah.

And that's where you, again showing that context, knowing the Old Testament background for Eve being called woman.

Yes.

And then knowing the early church fathers who interpret that together-

Oh, absolutely.

you see the continuity there.

And what they're gonna say, the, the ancient Christians will say is just as death comes into the world by Eve's initiation of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, so Mary brings life into the world, not just through the, her giving birth to Christ and the incarnation, but also she invites him-

Mm-hmm.

to perform his first public miracle-

Mm-hmm.

his first sign that's gonna begin the revelation of his Messiahship.

So Eve invites Adam-

And I, I, I love that.

to, to bring death into the world.

And I, yeah.

And Mary invites him to bring salvation.

And, and I love, in Luke's Gospel you have an angel approaching Mary.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Asking for her fiat.

And then you had an angel, a fallen angel approaching Eve.

Approaching Eve.

Right.

And so I don't know if you've seen, we have a great image, an ic- uh, painting of the Annunciation that we just got here at the Augustine Institute.

Oh no, I haven't seen this.

And, uh, and so we, it tries to show, uh, Mary as the new Eve.

In fact, it, and it has several symbolisms in the painting-

Oh, that's fantastic.

that, that point that out.

But i- in the background-

Uh-huh.

of where Mary's encountering the angel is, uh, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and an, and an olive tree .

as the sign for the tree of life.

So, it's kind of-

Oh, that's beautiful.

Right.

But in that- then, then, then that actually fast-forwards to the crucifixion scene.

Because if you thought Jesus was dishonoring his mother in the wedding at Cana, which of course he wouldn't 'cause he'd be breaking the fourth commandment.

Yeah, true.

Which, as a rule, if your- if your interpretation leads you to think Jesus breaks the commandments, you're probably wrong.

Yup.

Um, but he does it on the cross as well.

That's right.

Right?

And so what happens is, just like you have a man, a woman, and the tree at the fall of humanity-

Mm-hmm.

you have a, a man, Christ, the woman-

Yeah.

the new Eve, and then the, the true tree of life, which is gonna be the wood of the cross.

That's so beautiful.

The And this is what I think asking these questions and getting deeper into the Biblical story-

Right.

gets us to what you said before.

Catholics oftentimes know the what, but they don't always realize the why.

Why.

That's right.

And that's where the spark is.

'Cause when you, when you see the why-

Yeah.

it gets your faith on fire.

That's exactly right.

So, for example, in this case, why do Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary?

The idea that Mary, through a singular grace of God-

Hmm.

was conceived in the womb of her mother without the stain of original sin.

People say, How can you believe that about Mary?

Isn't she fully human?

And we, you know-

Yeah.

No human is without sin, except Christ.

And, and then we say nope.

And I'll say, Nope, actually, that's not true.

Yeah.

There were two other humans created-

Yeah.

without sin, created very good in the Bible, and it's Adam and-

Yeah.

Eve in the Book of Genesis.

That's, that's so important because I think so many Protestants think that w- our devotion to Mary makes her larger than reality.

No.

Yeah.

And we make her quasi-divine.

And so the idea that sh- Mary would be without sin means she's gotta be divine, but that's not the case at all.

Not un- unless you think-

And Eve is a perfect example of that.

That's exactly right.

So, if Adam and Eve could be created without sin-

Yep.

and still be fully human-

Es- exactly.

Yup.

then it's fitting that in the new covenant-

Yeah.

you wouldn't just have Christ, the new Adam, who is without sin.

Without sin.

But that you would also have-

Mm-hmm.

a new Eve who is without sin.

And o- real quick.

So, notice, and if she is the new Eve, and she was created with sin, then the old Eve would be greater than the new.

And that's not how typology works.

Hmm.

Right?

So, for Mary to be the new Eve-

Hmm

if the first Eve was created without sin, then the new Eve-

Has to be better.

has to be greater.

And so she-

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

is without sin as well.

Oh, I love that.

Well, there, there's a, a, a question that, um, Mark asks.

And he says, you know, Given the Protestant Reformation-

Yeah.

why do Protestants reject Mary?

Okay.

Um, well, they're I mean, we could get into a number of reasons.

'Cause Luther doesn't altogether right away.

It's really the second generation that's going to do that.

But-

That's right.

So, some of the first-generation reformers actually held to many of Catholic doctrines about Mary, and even held to certain devotions to Mary, but it quickly fades away.

And I think part of the reason is, well, let's look at Luther.

How did Luther feel about the Old Testament?

Hmm.

Was he exceedingly positive about the Old Testament ?

And the answer is no.

He drew a stark contrast between law and gospel.

And how did Luther feel about tradition?

Yeah.

Right?

The a- the, the tradition of the church fathers, he also rejected that in his clarion call with sola Scriptura.

So, once you start rejecting or, eh, looking only negatively at the Old Testament, and once you start rejecting the witness of the ancient Christians, you're gonna lose the context-

Hmm

that en- allows you to see the truth about Mary that's being revealed in the New Testament-

Hmm

but can only be s- really seen clearly if you read it in light of the old.

One of the things I, I was fascinated by, just studying a little bit of the Reformation period, is that the devotion to Our Lady of Sorrows grows significantly.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, a- as a response to the Reformation.

Because one of the things that the Reformation says is, all, all this Catholic art of Mary holding the baby Jesus-

Mm-hmm.

well, d- doesn't Jesus say, you know, when, when a woman says, Blessed are the breasts-

Oh, right.

Sure.

that, that bore you and, and nursed you.

And, um, and Jesus says instead, Blessed rather is she who does the will of God.

Mm-hmm.

Or hears the Word of God and does it.

Word and does it, yeah.

And does it, right?

Well, the response became Our Lady of Sorrows devotion and images of Mary at the foot of the cross and, you know, in sorrow because sh- there she is as a disciple, faithful to Jesus during the passion, right?

Oh, wow.

I-

And so, there's a sense of, okay, yeah, Mary is there at the infancy-

Right.

but Mary's there at the cross.

Which I think is a really beautiful response-

No, it, it is.

to that.

And I, I, I wasn't aware of that connection, although I would like to look into it further.

Because my, probably my favorite, uh, lecture in the series and my, definitely my favorite chapter in the book on the Jewish roots of Mary, is the chapter on Mary as the new Rachel.

Hmm

Where I try to show that just as Rachel, in the Old Testament, was the mother of Israel, right?

She's the wife of Jacob and the, the, the matriarch.

She's the mother of the people of Israel.

And in Jewish tradition and in scripture was engar- regarded as the mother of sorrows, a sorrowful mother.

Oh, of course.

Yeah.

Like in Jeremiah 31.

Yeah.

It says Rachel weeping for her children-

Yeah.

because they are no more.

I show in the book that that description, that Biblical description of Rachel as a woman of sorrows and a mother in Jeremiah 31 and in, and in the Book of, of Genesis, goes on in Jewish tradition to lead to Rachel being venerated as the mother of Israel and as the, the mother whose prayers have a particular power of intercession.

Hmm

Because she suffers with her children of Israel-

Hmm

and prays to G- God for them.

So, there's this, this great Rabbinic tradition, ancient rabbis, they had this story of how the people of Israel were suffering and Moses interceded for them with God, and God said no.

And then Abraham interceded for them with God, and God said no.

But when Rachel, the sorrowful mother, interceded for him-

Hmm

the, the, the, the genuinity, the, the, the authenticity of her mother's pain-

Wow

moves the heart of God to answer her prayers.

So, Rachel's prayers are the most powerful of all.

And there's even, as you know, to this day, a shrine to Rachel, right?

Rachel's tomb is a holy site.

Yeah.

Uh, and s- and we even have evidence of some Jews going there and asking for her intercession, right?

So-

Yeah, right on the outskirts of Bethlehem.

Right on the outskirts of Bethlehem.

That's where, that's exactly right.

So, now, take that, fast-forward to the New Testament- when Mary has Christ, of course, what follows is the massacre of the infants-

Mm-hmm.

near Bethlehem, and what does Matthew say?

He quotes-

Yeah.

Jeremiah 31 about Rachel weeping for her children.

Weeping for her children.

And even Jewish scholars have said, like, uh, Jacob Neusner and David Flusser have recognized that Mary appears to be being depicted in Matthew as a kind of new Rachel.

Mm-hmm.

Now, if Matthew sees Mary that way-

Mm-hmm.

then it, it makes so much sense that very early on, Christians would begin asking Mary, who's not dead but alive in heaven, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, that's why we call it eternal life, not eternal death.

Um-

Yeah.

begins ask, early Christians begin asking Mary, we have evidence in second and third century of them asking for her to pray for them, just like there was this tradition of, uh, Rachel acting as, uh, Our Lady of Sorrows, the Mother of Sorrows and an intercessor.

I, I love that.

I, I, I know one of my friends, that was their favorite chapter.

Oh, really?

They told me they'd never heard that before.

Yeah.

It totally blew them away and, uh, it, it, it's, it's just so great.

People have to go back and dive in more to find out about that.

Well, here's a question that is typical.

Okay.

Uh, Ryan asks, Well, why do Catholics believe that Mary is a perpetual virgin when it mentions Jesus' siblings, that Jesus has brothers and sisters?

Yeah, so I, I have a This is one of my favorite chapters in the book.

Um, there's a whole chapter just on that question with a specific focus on the perpetual virginity of Mary and the brothers of Jesus.

Mm-hmm.

So, I can't do it justice-

Sure.

in, in a nutshell here.

Yep, yep.

But let me, let me put it this way.

Um, in brief, many Catholics will rightly respond by saying that in, uh, ancient Greek and in Hebrew, the word brother did not only mean a, a uterine brother, like the, the son of the same mother.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, like Lot in Genesis is called-

Like Lot, lot in Genesis, Abraham-

his, his nephew, but he's called ʿadelfos.

Exactly, Genesis 14, he does that.

So, he calls him brother.

But many, many times that will seem like kinda special pleading to our non-Catholic friends because they'll look at Mark chapter 6-

Mm-hmm.

where it mentions the brothers of Jesus, James and Joses and Simon and Judas, and it mentions His sisters in the context of saying, Hey, isn't this the son of Mary and these are His brothers and sisters, and don't we know them?

Who is this guy who's coming and performing these works?

So, they'll say, Well, look, in context, it looks like these people are the brothers of Jesus.

So, I think it's not enough to just say that the word brother could mean cousin.

What you have to actually show is if you read Mark's Gospel in context, it, it is the best proof for those guys not being His brothers, but being His cousins, because if you fast-forward to Mark 15, the same two guys, Jos- James and Joseph, who are called the brothers of Jesus in Mark 6, are later identified in Mark as the sons of a woman named Mary, but who is called the other Mary, right?

Yeah.

Not the mother of Jesus.

So, in other words, the gospel themselves tell you that the brothers of Jesus are the children of another woman named Mary, who's at the foot of the cross, right?

And who John's Gospel in chapter 19 identifies as Mary, the wife of Clopas.

And so when you put all the data of the gospels together, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, Matthew, Mark, and John, it's very clear that James and Joseph, Simon and Judas, these guys who were called his brothers, that's just a Semitic way of referring to His cousins because if you fast-forward to Mark 15, the same two guys, Jos- James and Joseph who are called the brothers of Jesus in Mark 6 are later identified in Mark as the sons of a woman named Mary, but who is called the other Mary, right?

Yeah.

Not the mother of Jesus.

So, in other words, the gospel themselves tell you that the brothers of Jesus are the children of another woman named Mary, who's at the foot of the cross, right?

And who John's Gospel in chapter 19 identifies as Mary the wife of Clopas.

And so when you put all the data of the gospels together, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, Matthew, Mark, and John, it's very clear that James and Joseph, Simon and Judas, these guys who are called His brothers, that's just a Semitic way of referring to His cousins and they're the children, not of the Virgin Mary-

Mm-hmm.

but of another Mary.

And by the way, ancient Christians all knew this.

If you read Eusebius'-

Yeah.

Church History-

Yeah.

Hegesippus was an early Church historian, they knew that James, the bishop of Jerusalem, and Simon, two of the brothers, were actually the sons of a man named Clopas, who was Jesus' uncle.

So, this was not like some cryptic secret knowledge.

Yeah.

This was just public knowledge.

But as Christianity moved into Gentile spheres where people didn't understand that Semitic language of brothers, it became garbled and people became confused about who these men were.

Yeah.

I, I, it's such a great explanation and, and it just reminds me of, you know, there's a lot of Protestants that don't understand Marian devotion, but there's just as many Catholics who don't understand Marian devotion.

That's, that's absolutely right.

And the biblical roots of it, right?

That's absolutely right.

And, and for us Catholics, I think Catholics sometimes get, like, Well, why don't the Protestants understand this?

Well, it's because we Catholics aren't able to answer dinner conversations when Protestant friends ask us-

Right.

and we can't give the why.

But if Catholics could explain the why-

That's exactly right.

there won't be many Protestants left.

I think.

No, th- well-

I mean, if we could, if Catholics can articulate the biblical reasons for our faith-

No, I think that's abs-

the unity between Protestants and Catholics is-

Is gonna grow.

is gonna grow significantly.

Because the, because Mar- and I know this from personal experience, because Mary is one of the greatest impediments.

Yeah.

Like, and it's not Mary herself.

P- a point of division for Protestants.

But the beliefs about Mary, uh, have Protestant friends and family who have become Catholic and they said Mary was the greatest hurdle, because it's, they, for them, the, the beliefs about Mary seem so patently unbiblical.

Mm-hmm.

And because so many Catholics aren't able to explain w- how they're biblical-

Yeah.

it really just seems like they're the, that they are beliefs that we just close our eyes and say, Well, the Church says so, and I believe it even though, you know, I know it isn't true.

Or whatever, or-

Mm-hmm.

it's not biblical but I'm gonna believe it anyway.

I know many Catholics who get nervous when they hear those passages about the brothers of Jesus in, in the lectionary and at mass, but they don't know how to explain them.

So, that's what this book's for.

Mm-hmm.

That's what the Lectio Bible study is for.

Well, and I, I really encourage people in, in, in our audience that if you want to help Catholics understand Mary, get a Bible study group.

Maybe start it yourself.

You know, if you know there's a Bible study group in your parish, tell them, Hey, you, we've got to do this Lectio Mary Bible study.

And you can get this at catholic.market.

Uh, catholic.market sells it.

It's also on the Form platform.

Yeah.

And, uh, you can also get, uh, Dr. Peters' book, The Jewish Roots of Mary, uh, at catholic.market.

So please, um, go, go there.

Find these resources.

Get the book and watch this series, because we've got to get Catholics to understand and know their Mother-

This is really important.

so that they can evangelize, because this is, this is the barrier oftentimes with Catholics and Protestants.

It's a-

And we don't need that.

We don't need that barrier.

It's, it's a huge barrier.

And I love that you said to get to know their Mother because, you know, one of the things I try to show in this series is that Mary isn't-At the end of the day, Mary isn't a doctrine.

Yeah.

Mary isn't a dogma.

Mary is a person.

Yeah.

She's a real person who Jesus, in his last words, gave to us through John to be His mother.

I mean, o- his last will and testament, one of the last things he said was to John Actually, he said, uh, to John, Behold your mother, and then to Mary, Behold your son.

And-

And, and just as, just as he doesn't use Mary's name, Mary-

Right.

he uses mother.

He uses Yeah.

He uses for John-

Actually, yeah, right, woman.

No, actually, it's, uh, yeah, woman, sorry, yeah.

Woman, and then, but also for John, he, he does-

Mm.

he, to, to the He looked at the disciple whom he loved.

Whom he loved.

Yeah, that's true.

So, he didn't just look at John, he looked at disci- 'cause we're all invited to be that disciple.

That's right.

He stands for us then.

That's right.

Yeah, the ancient Christian saw this very clearly that John, the beloved disciple in the Gospel of John, is a kind of figure or type in which we're supposed to see ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

We all should strive to become beloved disciples of Jesus.

And when Jesus gives Mary to John to be her mother, He's giving her not just to John, but to all of His disciples.

And if you have any doubts about this, you can go to the Book of Revelation, chapter 12.

Yeah.

Where the mother of the Messiah, the woman clothed with the sun, it says that, um, the devil went off to persecute her childr- the rest of her children.

The rest of her offspring, yep.

Her offspring.

Yep.

Who are those who believe in Christ-

Yeah.

who believe in Jesus.

That is one, that's my favorite Marian ver- verse.

It's Revelation 12, verse 17.

17.

Go look it up.

And it says, you know, Went to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who bear witness-

Witness.

ta- �2028marteria- bear witness to Jesus-

Yep.

Yeah.

and obey the commandments of God.

That's exactly right.

And so, in other words, it, it's clearly identifying that the children of Mary are those who bear witness to Jesus-

That's right.

and obey God's commandments.

Yep.

And it n- it's not about, uh, genetics.

Nope.

It's not about natural birth order.

It's about a s-

And it's not about denomination.

ex- or denomination.

Every Christian, yeah.

It's about a spiritual order here-

That's exactly right.

of loving Jesus.

If, if, if, you know, you love Christ and you wanna obey the commandments of the Father-

Yeah.

Mary's your mother.

Yeah, whether you know it or not -

That's so beautiful, yeah.

she's your mother.

She's your mother.

You know, um, Diane asks, You know, Mary seems to be without free will or temptation.

Can you comment on that?

And I think probably what Diane's thinking about, if Mary doesn't sin, she can't really be free.

Yeah.

But that's not true, is it?

No, that's not true.

Otherwise, we're not free in heaven.

That's ex- that's how I answer this always.

So, wait a second, um, are we going to sin in heaven?

No.

Say no.

Yeah.

Uh, so does that mean we lose our freedom?

No.

In fact, what heaven is, it's the perfection of our freedom.

Yeah.

Because God gives us our freedom precisely in order to choose the good.

Mm-hmm.

And so, what Mary and all the saints in heaven, who are all sinless by the way-

Yeah.

and don't stop being human-

Yep.

So, they say, Oh, you can't be sinless and be human, we have a problem- because the saints in heaven are still human.

But what, what they do is they, through God's grace, their freedom is perfected to, that they choose God and they choose the good for all eternity.

Ah, I love it.

And I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty good to me.

I-

I'd like to do that.

Yeah, I'm ready for the perfection of freedom right now.

Ready for do that.

Yeah, ready for that.

Bring it, Lord.

Yeah.

Yeah, bring it.

Absolutely.

That, that, that is It's so glorious.

Yeah.

But, you know, that's the beauty of our faith.

Brent, just to end with, you know, you, you spent a lot of time praying and studying this.

How, in doing the book and, and doing this study, in studying Our Lady and y- realizing Mary as our mother-

Mm-hmm.

how did it lead you to be a, a more devoted to Jesus Christ?

'Cause I think a lot of people think Marian devotion is a parallel track to devotion to Jesus, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Marian devotion should lead us to be a more devoted disciple of our Lord, right?

Absolutely, yeah.

So, um, for me personally, um, what this, what this study helped me realize, uh, something the Catechism says that I knew as a doctrine, but I-

Mm-hmm.

I, I, I really deepened it, uh, pres- I penetrated that teaching more deeply.

It says, the Catechism says everything that the Catholic Church believes and teaches about Mary is based on what she believes and teaches about Christ.

Mm.

And so, it, it has only made my grasp of j- who Jesus is more splendid, more profound.

So, for example, by realizing Mary is, um, the new Eve, it's helped me understand, oh, Jesus isn't just the Messiah, He's the new Adam.

Mm-hmm.

He comes to inaugurate a whole new creation.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, by focusing on Mary as the, the Queen Mother, it's helped me realize that Jesus didn't just come to set up, like, a new institution.

He's a king.

King.

He reigns as a king, and I'm a subject that belongs to this-

Yeah.

heavenly kingdom, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, in recognizing Mary as the, the new, uh, the n- well, I have a whole chapter on this.

But on, as the new Rachel-

Mm-hmm.

the Sorrowful Mother-

Yeah.

it helps me realize that Jesus is also the new Joseph.

Mm.

Right?

The, the beloved son of Rachel-

Yeah, who suffers.

who, who suffers-

Mm-hmm.

Who's betrayed-

And betrayed by his brethren.

by his 11 brothers, one named Judah, right?

Uh-oh.

Sold for 20 pieces of silver, right?

Yeah.

And goes down into the pit only to emerge-

Mm-hmm.

and to rise to the highest throne-

Ah.

and then save the world, Israel and the Gentiles, by feeding them with what?

The wheat.

Yeah.

Feed- so this is what Christ does.

He's the new Joseph who feeds the world and saves us with the bread and life.

Brent, I, I'm so glad you shared this.

I, I can't believe our time is up, but I, I just wanna encourage people.

You know, just from what Brent was just saying, you know, the more we understand Mary in Scripture, the more we're gonna understand Jesus Christ, and that's the goal.

Yup.

That is the goal.

And so, Marian devotion leads to devotion to Jesus.

And I always think personally of John, the beloved disciple, as the only one at the cross 'cause he's with Our Lady.

Mm-hmm.

He's with Mary, and Mary helps John have the courage to be there at the cross.

And if we become truly devoted to Mary, she will give us the courage to take up the cross in our own lives and to follow Jesus Christ wherehe- wherever He calls us.

And I wanna thank you all for joining us.

Um, it, it's been a great pleasure to talk about-

Oh, thanks man, yeah.

the Blessed Mother with you, Brent.

Yeah.

And it's, it's a great joy to have you on the show.

My pleasure.

Thank you for being with us.

Always a pleasure.

Yeah, and I Next week, we're gonna do So many of you ask, you know, you love these shows, and we just do question and answer.

So, next week, I'm gonna do a question and answer episode with Dr. Ben Akers.

We always enjoy those.

We're always happy to have your questions and have you participate in the show.

Thank you f- so much for being a part of this.

And thanks, special thanks to all of you who support us through the Mission Circle, our monthly giving society.

It helps us have this ministry.

God bless you.