欢迎回到谢默斯的杂谈。 Welcome back to Seamus' Potpourri.
我是乔·赫施迈尔，经常有人问我一个问题：我怎么知道什么时候该成为一名公教徒？ I'm Joe Heschmeyer, and one of the questions that I get a lot from people is, When do I know that it's time to become a Catholic?
虽然不总是这样表达，但你大概明白我在说什么。 It's not always worded that way, but you kind of know what I'm talking about.
我想，也许你是一位新教徒，看了类似这样的视频后会想：哇，这些问题我 以前从未听过，然后你发现自己对公教的一个又一个反对理由逐渐消失了。 I think maybe you're a Protestant who watches videos like these, and you think, Wow, I've never heard this before about one after another issue, and you find one after another of your objections to Catholicism falling away.
或者你可能不是基督徒，但你开始思考：我该如何看待拿撒勒人耶稣？ Or maybe you're a non-Christian, and you're starting to wonder, What do I make of the person of Jesus of Nazareth?
所有这些可能会让人感到极大的压力。 All of this can be enormously stressful.
这可能意味着要和亲人进行艰难的对话，或者意味着会被人评判。 It might mean hard conversations with loved ones, or it might mean people judging you.
我曾与一些新教牧师交谈过，他们意识到神在呼召他们成为公教徒，即使 这意味着辞去工作、失去生计，有时甚至要放弃房子和他们熟悉的一切。 I've talked to Protestant pastors who realized God was calling them to become Catholic, even though it meant resigning their jobs, losing their livelihood, giving up their house in some cases, and everything they kind of knew.
所以我明白，这不是一个人们会轻易对待的问题，也不是一个我认为人们应该轻视的问题。 So I realize this is not a question that people take lightly, nor is it a question I think people ought to take lightly.
这是一个重要的时刻，而我认为我们有时可能会弄错。 This is an important moment, and it's one that I think we can get wrong sometimes.
因此，我想先看看有哪些方式是不适合前进的，然后看看我们是 否能找到一种在灵性和圣经上都合理的方法来回答这个问题。 So I want to look at a couple of ways not to move forward and then see if we can't find a spiritually and biblically sound way to answer this problem.
现在，在这样做时，我想把这个问题分成两个部分来看。 Now, in doing that, I want to look at this in two parts.
我可能会采取一种独特的方式，因为在问“我什么时候该成为公教徒？”这个问题时， I'm going to take maybe a unique approach to it because in asking the question, When should I become Catholic?
我想先问一个问题：我什么时候该成为基督徒？ I want to first ask the question, When should I become Christian?
现在，我知道你们中许多人已经是基督徒了，但我认为，当我们思考如何回答 这个问题时，这将有助于我们回答第一个问题：我什么时候该成为公教徒？ Now, I know many of you watching this already are Christians, but I think as we think about how we would answer this question, it'll help us to answer the first question: When should I become Catholic?
也许在回答“我什么时候该成为基督徒？” And maybe in answering the When should I become Christian?
这个问题时，你会发现自己思维中潜入的一些错误。 question, you can see some errors that have crept into your own thinking.
我想你最终会看到其中的联系，但在此过程中可能会有两点需要注意。 I think you'll see the connection by the end, but maybe a little two things kind of on the way.
请记住，对于最早的基督徒，或者最早在分辨基督信仰的人来说，对 他们中的许多人而言，“我什么时候该成为基督徒？”这个问题， Bear in mind that the earliest Christians, or the earliest people discerning Christianity, for many of them, the question When should I become Christian?
就是“我什么时候该成为公教徒？”这个问题。 was the question When should I become Catholic?
当时并没有许多教派存在，所以将这两个问题放在一起是有道理的。 There weren't a bunch of denominations out there, so it makes sense to put these two questions next to each other.
其次，耶稣似乎在某种意义上在《路加福音》10章16节中画 出了一个平行关系，当祂说：“听从你们的，就是听从我；弃绝 你们的，就是弃绝我；弃绝我的，就是弃绝那差我来的。” But second, Jesus seems to draw a sort of parallelism in a certain way in Luke 10:16 when He says, He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
我们常常试图分开来说：“不，耶稣，我接受你；但我拒绝你的教会。” We've been wanting to divide and say, No, Jesus, I accept you; I reject your Church.
“我接受你；但我拒绝那些教导我认识你的人。” I accept you; I reject the people who taught me about you.
这种说法，“我接受你但不接受使徒”，耶稣明确指出，这不是一个符合圣经的答案。 That sort of message, I accept you and not the apostles, and Jesus makes it very clear that is not a biblical answer to this problem.
所以，作为一个小小的前言，说明为什么我认为将这两个问题放在一起思考是 有意义的，那么你会如何回答一个问“我什么时候该成为基督徒？”的人呢？ So with that as maybe a little bit of a preamble for why I think it makes sense to think about these two things together, what would you say to someone who said, When should I become a Christian?
或者，也许你现在就是在问这个问题的人。 Or maybe you're someone who's asking that question right now.
我认为一个很容易让人接受的答案是：“当你大部分同意耶稣时。” One answer I think it's easy to latch onto is, When you mostly agree with Jesus.
因为如果你习惯了我们在世俗中思考问题的方式，这样的答案是有道理的。 Because if you're used to how we think about things in the world, that kind of answer makes sense.
如果我60%支持耶稣，但有40%的时候不同意祂 ，那么在其他情况下，这可能已经足够了，对吧？ If I'm 60% pro-Jesus and disagree with Him 40% of the time, well, in other contexts, that would be enough, right?
比如说，如果我是60%的共和党人，40%的民主党人，我 可能会说，我基本上是一个温和的共和党人，或者反过来说。 Like if I'm 60% Republican and 40% Democrat, I might say I'm mostly, you know, I'm a moderate Republican or vice versa.
随便吧。 Whatever.
我不是在试图讨论政治。 I'm not trying to make a point about politics.
或者你可能会说，在哲学上，柏拉图教导了这些，我大部分同意，但在某些地方我更像 亚里士多德，而在另一些地方，也许我更喜欢伊壁鸠鲁的部分——类似这样的情况。 Or you might say, you know, with philosophy, Plato teaches this, and I mostly agree, but over here I'm more like Aristotle, and over here maybe I'm more like, you know, I like the part Epicurus has—that kind of thing.
你仍然可以说自己是柏拉图主义者，即使你并不完全同意 柏拉图的一切，这样的说法完全合乎逻辑，也完全一致。 You could still say I'm a Platonist even though I don't agree with Plato on everything, and that would be perfectly coherent and perfectly consistent.
但我认为，任何理解基督信仰的人都会认识到，你不能对耶稣这样做。 But I think anyone who understands Christianity recognizes you can't do that with Jesus.
有时候，耶稣会说一些非常美好和鼓舞人心的话，你会由衷地说：“是的，我喜欢。” There are going to be times where Jesus says things that are really beautiful and inspiring, and you really say, Yeah, I love it.
但也有时候，耶稣会说一些非常难以接受的话，我们不能只是说：“嗯， 我觉得我喜欢的那些话稍微多一些，所以我想我可以称自己为基督徒。” And then there are going to be times where Jesus says things that are really hard, and we can't just say, Well, I think there were slightly more things in the first category of things that I liked, so I guess I'll call myself a Christian.
这不是基督信仰的本质，因为耶稣并不仅仅声称 自己是一个好老师；祂声称自己远不止于此。 That's not what it is because Jesus doesn't claim just to be a good teacher; He claims to be more than that.
祂声称自己是神的儿子，如果这是真的，那么我们 不能只是说：“我会在60%的时间里跟随你。” He claims to be the Son of God, and if that's true, then we can't just say, I'm going to follow you 60% of the time.
所以，第一个标准“当你大部分同意耶稣时”，我们必须认识到这是明显错误的。 So that first standard, When you mostly agree with Jesus, we have to see that's clearly incorrect.
公平地说，我认为大多数人不会这样说，尽管我确实认为 在大众的想象中，有些人会觉得自己“算是基督徒”。 And to be fair, I don't think a lot of people would say that, although I do think you get some of that I'm kind of Christian in kind of the popular imagination.
我不认为看这个视频的人会属于那种类型。 I don't think people watching this video are going to be in that category.
这就引出了另一种类型，有点像相反的极端，那就是：“好吧，我不会在大部分同意 耶稣时成为基督徒；我要在完全理解并看到耶稣所说的一切智慧时成为基督徒。” That then leads to another category, kind of the opposite extreme, which is, Okay, I'm going to become Christian not when I mostly agree with Jesus; I'm going to become Christian when I completely understand and see the wisdom of everything that Jesus says.
我想要理解并选择接受耶稣的每一条教导。 I want to understand and choose to accept each and every one of Jesus' teachings.
同样，我能理解这种方法的吸引力。 And again, I see the appeal of this approach.
这看起来很有道理，尤其是当你明白为什么第一个方法是错误的时候。 It makes a lot of sense, especially if you see why the first one's wrong.
你可能会想：“那么，这个方法一定是对的。” You might think, Well, therefore this one must be right.
并非如此；这个方法实际上也是不符合圣经的，我们可以从几个方面看出来。 Not so; this one is actually unbiblical as well, and we can see this in several ways.
比如在《马可福音》第九章中，有一个人是一个被鬼附的孩子的父亲。 So in one instance, just in Mark 9, you've got a man who is the father of a child who's struggling with a demon.
那人对耶稣说：“你若能做什么，求你怜悯我们，帮助我们。” The man says to Jesus, If you can do anything, have pity on us and help us.
耶稣感到惊讶，说：“你若能！” And Jesus is incredulous; He says, If you can!
“在信的人，凡事都能。” All things are possible to him who believes.
那人深受触动，说：“我信，但我信不足，求主帮助！” The man is really struck by this, and he says, I believe; help my unbelief.
请注意，那人并没有说：“我百分之百相信；我已经完全弄明白了。” Now notice there: the man doesn't come saying, I'm 100%; I've got it all figured out.
“我完全明白你是谁，你的信息是什么，并且我看到了其中的智慧。” I understand completely who you are and what your message is, and I see the wisdom of all of it.
不，不是这样的。 No, no.
他有一些信心，而且显然已经足够了；耶稣答应了他的请求。 He's got something, and it's clearly enough; Jesus grants this request.
但他显然也是一个仍在成长中的人，并且承认自己是这样的人。 But he's also clearly someone who's still a work in progress and acknowledges being such.
但也许你不想挑剔一个被鬼附孩子的父亲。 But maybe you don't want to pick on the father of a child with a demon.
那么我们来谈谈使徒吧。 Let's talk about the apostles then.
在《马太福音》第四章中，耶稣呼召使徒，特别是西门彼得和他的 兄弟安得烈，祂说：“来跟从我，我要叫你们得人如得鱼一样。” In Matthew chapter 4, Jesus calls the apostles, particularly Simon Peter and his brother Andrew, and He says, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
你会在新约的记载中找到不同版本的描述。 You'll find various versions of this in the New Testament accounts.
所以重点是，他们显然与耶稣建立了关系。 So the point is, they're clearly in a relationship with Jesus.
他们显然是耶稣的跟随者，那么你会问：“他们是否完全明 白了一切？”如果你读过新约，你就知道事实并非如此。 They're clearly followers of Jesus, and you say, Okay, well, did they get things 100%? If you've read any of the New Testament, you know that's not the case.
你知道他们并没有完全理解所发生的一切，也没有完全同意。 You know they were not 100% understanding of what was going on and agreeing with that.
完全不是这样。 It wasn't at all.
事实上，我们可以在四福音书中看到这一点。 In fact, we can see that in all four Gospels.
比如在《马太福音》第十五章，有一个场景是彼得和其他人把 耶稣拉到一旁，警告祂说法利赛人不喜欢祂所说的一些话。 So, for instance, in Matthew chapter 15, there's a moment where Peter and the others have taken Jesus aside to warn Him that the Pharisees aren't liking some of the things that He’s saying.
然后彼得借此机会说：“请将这个比喻讲给我们听。”耶稣回答说：“你们还不明白吗？” Then Peter uses the opportunity to say, Explain the parable to us, and Jesus responds, Are you also still without understanding?
所以我们知道彼得和使徒们并不是每次都能明白一切。 So we know Peter and the apostles didn't get things all the time.
同样，在《马可福音》第四章中，耶稣对十二使徒说：“你们不明白这个比喻吗？” Likewise, in the Gospel of Mark, in Mark chapter 4, Jesus says to the Twelve, Do you not understand this parable?
“这样，你们怎能明白一切的比喻呢？” How then will you understand all the parables?
因为他们不明白撒种的比喻。 Because they didn't understand the parable of the sower and the seed.
后来在《马可福音》中，耶稣教导他们人子将被交在 人手里，他们要杀害祂，祂被杀后，三日后要复活。 Later in Mark's Gospel, Jesus is teaching them about how the Son of Man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and when He is killed, after three days He will rise.
此时，他们已经习惯了耶稣讲这些比喻和寓言，以至于他们 不明白，马可告诉我们，他们不明白这话，又不敢问祂。 At this point, they're so used to Jesus giving these parables and figures of speech that they don't understand, and Mark tells us they did not understand the saying and they were afraid to ask Him.
我们知道这并不是比喻；祂只是告诉他们将要发生的 事，而他们却想：“哦，我们也不明白这个比喻。” We know there's no parable; He's just telling them what's going to happen, and they're like, Oh, we don't understand this parable either.
所以，这就是使徒们，对吧？ So that's the apostles, right?
他们显然在跟随耶稣，这是正确的；耶稣邀请他们跟随祂。 They clearly are following Jesus, and it's right that they are; Jesus has invited them to follow Him.
但他们并没有百分之百明白，而这在当时是可以接受的。 But they don't understand 100%, and that is okay for now.
这并不意味着耶稣的教导不重要；而是说，即使仍在成长中，这也是可以的。 It doesn't mean Jesus' teaching doesn't matter; it means it's okay if there's still a work in progress.
同样，在《路加福音》第九章中，耶稣说：“你们要把这些话存在耳中，因为人子将要被 交在人手里。”然而，他们仍不明白这话，因为这话对他们是隐藏的，使他们不能领会。 Likewise, in Luke chapter 9, Jesus says, Let these words sink into your ears, for the Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and again, they did not understand this saying; it was concealed from them that they should not perceive it.
我认为这非常重要，因为路加告诉了我们一些马可甚至没有提到的事情。 I think that's really important because Luke is telling us something that Mark doesn't even mention.
也就是说，这是神的旨意，让他们暂时还不能明白。 Namely, that it was God's will that they wouldn't understand it yet.
我们想象这有点像心硬，比如：“哦，神恨这个法老，或者其他人。” We imagine this as kind of like a hardening of the heart, like, Oh, God hates this Pharaoh, or whoever.
你有时会听到那种加尔文主义的说法，比如：“哦，神使 他们的心刚硬，这样他们就不会明白，也不能得救。” You'll sometimes hear that kind of Calvinistic rhetoric, like, Oh, God hardened their hearts so they wouldn't know, so they couldn't be saved.
不，这里的重点是答案暂时对他们隐藏了，因为他们还没有准备好接受它。 No, the point here is that the answer was concealed from them for now because they weren't ready for it yet.
这实际上是神怜悯的一部分；祂允许他们以他们能够接受的速度逐步成长。 This was actually part of God's mercy; He allowed them to kind of progress at the speed they were able to progress.
他们只是还没有到那个地步。 They just weren't there yet.
最后，在《约翰福音》第十二章中，我们听到祂的门徒起初并不明白这些事，但当 耶稣得荣耀以后，他们才想起这话是指着祂写的，并且众人果然向祂这样行了。 And then finally, in the Gospel of John, in John chapter 12, we hear about how His disciples did not understand this at first, but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that this had been written of Him and had been done to Him.
所以你再次看到，这是一个过程，而有这样的过程是可以的。 So again, you see that there's a process, and it's okay that there's a process.
那么，你什么时候该成为基督徒呢？ So when should you become a Christian?
嗯，人们可能会倾向于说，只有当你完全理解一切并看到耶稣每一条教导的智慧时才可以。 Well, it's tempting to say only once you understand everything and see the wisdom of each and every one of Jesus' teachings.
但这在圣经中也是不正确的。 This is also biblically untrue.
现在，我想在这里补充两点。 Now, I'd add two things here.
第一，这是一个无法达到的标准，这意味着在耶稣的教导中仍然有一 些地方让我觉得：“哦，我以前没明白这一点。”或者有些经文我读 了会想：“我不知道祂在说什么。”然后我会去读并试图理解。 One, this is an unreachable standard, meaning there are still places in Jesus' teachings where I think, Oh, I didn't get that before, or there are passages where I read it and think, I don't know what He's saying, and I'll go and read and try to understand.
所以，如果你等到完全理解神的心意才皈依，那 永远不会发生，因此这是一个无法达到的标准。 So if you're waiting until you completely understand the mind of God to convert, that's never going to happen, and so that's an unreachable standard.
此外，我还认为，这种想法误解了羊与牧人的关系。 But also, I would suggest it gets wrong the relationship of sheep and shepherd.
基督是我们的牧人，我们是祂的羊。 Christ is our Shepherd, and we are the sheep.
如果我们等到完全知道牧人要去哪里、在做什么，并且 同意祂所有的决定才跟随祂，那实际上并不是顺服。 If we wait to follow the Shepherd until we know exactly where He's going and what He's doing and agree with all of His decisions, that's not actually submission.
我只是因为看到了其中的智慧才顺服，因此我仍然是掌控方向的人。 I'm only submitting insofar as I see the wisdom of it, and therefore I'm still the one in the driver's seat.
所以，虽然这看起来像是忠心——“哦，看，我在试图理解耶 稣的所有教导”——但它可能掩盖了一种自我依赖：“我需要 自己弄清楚这一切，然后如果还有余地，我才会跟随耶稣。” So while that looks like faithfulness—Oh, look, I'm trying to understand all of Jesus' teaching—it can mask a sort of self-reliance: I need to figure all this stuff out for myself on my own, and then if there's still room, I'll follow Jesus.
我认为，如果你这样表述，你就会明白为什么这既不符合圣经，也在灵性上站不住脚。 And I think if you put it like that, you see why it's unbiblical and spiritually unsound.
那么你可能会问：“那我们该怎么办呢？” So you might say, Well, where does that leave us?
我们不能仅仅在大部分同意耶稣时跟随祂，但也不能 等到完全理解祂时才跟随祂。那么答案是什么呢？ We don't follow Jesus when we just mostly agree with Him, but we also don't wait to follow Jesus until we understand 100%. So what is it?
圣经对此有一个非常明确的答案：当你意识到耶 稣就是祂所说的那位，并且祂是值得信赖的。 Well, there's a pretty clear biblical answer to this: when you come to realize that Jesus is who He says He is and that He can be trusted.
例如，在《马太福音》第十六章中，耶稣带着门徒来到 该撒利亚腓立比，我们在谈到教会时会回到这个场景。 For instance, in Matthew chapter 16, Jesus takes the disciples to Caesarea Philippi, and we're going to get back to this when we talk about the Church.
但现在，我想强调耶稣所问的问题，因为这些问题不是关于祂的教导，而是关于祂是谁。 But for now, I want to draw out the questions that Jesus asks because they're not about His teaching; they're about who He is.
祂问他们：“人说人子是谁？” He asks them, Who do men say that the Son of Man is?
然后祂问他们：“你们说我是谁？” And then He asks them, But who do you say that I am?
西门彼得——我们稍后会回到他——回答说：“你是基督，是永生神的儿子。” Simon Peter, who we're going to return to, says, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
但这个问题本身就非常值得注意。 But the question itself is quite remarkable.
正如巴伦主教所指出的，耶稣并没有问人们如何 评价祂的讲道、祂的神迹或祂对文化的影响。 As Bishop Barron has pointed out, Jesus doesn't ask what people are saying about His preaching or His miracle working or His impact on the culture.
祂问的是：“人说祂是谁？” He asks who they say He is.
这与其他宗教完全不同。 And this is radically unlike other religions.
例如，穆罕默德声称自己是安拉的先知，仅此而已。 Muhammad, for instance, claims to be the prophet of Allah; that's all.
他并没有说自己是神。 He doesn't say he's God.
没有“你们说我是谁？”这样的提问。 There's no question of Who do you say that I am?
这一点非常清楚。 It's very clear.
摩西也是如此；他显然是一位先知，不多也不少。 Moses, for this matter, is the same; he's clearly a prophet, nothing more, nothing less.
他有一个明确的角色定位。 He's got a clear defined kind of role.
佛陀和那些伟大的东方导师仅仅声称自己是发现了现实本质的一些真理的老师。 Buddha and these great Eastern teachers claim just to be teachers who've discovered something about the nature of reality.
没有人会问：“人说佛陀是谁？” No one is asking, Who do men say the Buddha is?
这不是问题所在。 That's not the question.
但对于耶稣来说，问题不仅仅是：“你怎么看祂的教导？” But with Jesus, the question isn't just, What do you think of His teaching?
那几乎是——不，其实是——次要的。 That is almost—well, no, it is—it is secondary.
问题反而是：“你们说祂是谁？” The question is instead, Who do you say that He is?
如果你回答对了这个问题，那么你就进入了一个不同的对话。 And if you get that question right, now you're having a different conversation.
这不是“我是否同意祂教导的60%或100%？”的问题。 It's not, Do I agree with 60% or 100% of His teaching?
教导与教师之间的关系现在呈现出一种不同的视角。 The relationship of the teaching and the Teacher has now come into a different view.
我将给你另一个我认为指向这一点的经文。 I'm going to give you another passage that I think points to this.
在《约翰福音》第六章中，耶稣在迦百农的会堂里讲了祂关于圣餐的教 导，被称为“生命之粮的讲论”，这让许多人感到震惊并引发了争议。 In John chapter 6, Jesus has given His Eucharistic teaching, called the Bread of Life discourse, at the synagogue in Capernaum, and it's shocking and it scandalizes a lot of people.
因此，在第66节中我们被告知，祂的许多门徒退去，不再与祂同行。 So we're told in verse 66 that many of His disciples draw back and no longer go about with Him.
耶稣于是对十二使徒说：“你们也要去吗？” Jesus then goes to the Twelve and He says, Will you also go away?
仔细听听西门彼得的回答。 Listen carefully to Simon Peter's response.
他说：“主啊，你有永生之道，我们还归从谁呢？” He says, Lord, to whom shall we go?
“你有永生之道，我们已经信了，又知道你是神的圣者。” You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.
所以我认为我们在这里得到了圣经的答案，而这个答案有两个部分：教导和身份。 So I think we've got the biblical answer right there, and the biblical answer has two parts to it: teaching and identity.
我们如何看待耶稣的教导，与我们相信耶稣是谁是分不开的。 What do we make of Jesus' teaching is inseparable from who do we believe Jesus is.
因此，在《约翰福音》第六章中，当彼得说“你有永生之道”时，他 是在谈论耶稣的教导，但他并没有止步于此，因为他对耶稣教导可靠 性的信念与他相信“你是神的圣者”这一身份问题是不可分割的。 And so in John 6, when Peter says, You have the words of eternal life, he's speaking of Jesus' teaching, but he doesn't stop there because his belief about the reliability of Jesus' teaching is inseparable from his belief that You are the Holy One of God, a question of identity.
因此，一旦你正确回答了身份的问题——耶稣就是 祂所说的那位——那么你就可以凭着良心跟随祂。 And so once you've got the question of identity right—Jesus is who He says He is—then you can follow in good conscience.
为什么呢？ Why?
因为你看，耶稣说了一些难以接受的话；祂说了一些让人困惑的话 ，也说了一些具有挑战性的话——那些让人感到不舒服的话——还 有许多如果是我自己编造一个宗教，我绝不会包括在内的事情。 Because, look, Jesus says some hard things; He says some things that are confusing, and He also says some things that are challenging—things that are uncomfortable—and plenty of things that if I were making up my own religion, I wouldn't have included.
好吧，我知道如果我走这条路而祂走那条路，祂是神而 我不是，那么我应该跟随祂，而不是跟随自己的倾向。 Fine, I know that if I would go this way and He would go that way, and He's God and I'm not, that I should follow Him instead of my own inclinations.
因此，一旦我能达到这一点，我就可以凭着信心跟 随，即使我看不出祂为什么这样做的智慧所在。 And so once I can get to that point, I can follow in good faith, even if I don't see the wisdom of why He's doing what He's doing.
我可以足够信任祂，相信其中有智慧，即使我现在还看不到。 I can trust Him enough to know that there is a wisdom there, even if I don't see it yet.
我希望这很清楚：你不需要理解神为什么做祂所做的一 切，更重要的是，你不能也不会理解神将要做的一切。 And I hope that's clear: you don't have to understand why God does everything He does, and more than that, you don't and won't understand everything God is going to do.
你无法预测神的心意，所以如果你接受祂的标准 是你必须理解祂，那你永远达不到这个标准。 You can't predict the mind of God, and so if your standard for accepting Him is that you can't, you're never going to reach it.
相反，你需要看到足够的证据。 Instead, you have to see enough.
所以，我认为信息与传信者之间的关系是这样的：它是双向的。 So the relationship of the message and the Messenger, I would suggest, is this: it's in two directions.
一方面，耶稣的教导以及祂的神迹——尤其是祂的复活——向我们揭示了祂的身份。 On the one hand, Jesus' teaching, along with His miracles—most especially the resurrection—tell us something about His identity.
祂的言行表明祂就是祂所说的那位——神的儿子。 He speaks and acts in a way that points to Him being who He says He is, the Son of God.
因此，教导引向身份的认知。 So teaching leads to identity.
一旦你认清了身份，这又会引导我们如何理解祂的教导。 Once you get identity, that then leads back to how we understand the teaching.
现在，这不仅仅是一个智者在给我实用的建议。 Now it's not just, Here's a wise man giving me practical advice.
现在是神的儿子，祂自己就是神，在告诉我现实的本质。 Now it's the Son of God, who is God Himself, telling me the nature of reality.
现在我会以更多的兴趣、敬畏和尊重来聆听。 Now I'm going to listen to that with a great deal more interest, reverence, and respect.
好吧，让我们从这里转向另一个问题，说：“好的，这就是我们理解教导的方式。” Okay, let's then turn from that and say, Okay, that's how we understand teaching.
那么，我什么时候应该成为基督徒呢？ When should I become Christian in general?
我什么时候应该成为公教徒呢？ When should I become Catholic?
我认为我们面对的是非常相似的问题。 And I would suggest we are faced with very similar questions.
首先，你可能会说：“当我大部分同意公教会时，我就应该成为公教徒。” First, you might say, I should become Catholic when I mostly agree with the Catholic Church.
你知道，这不仅仅是政治和哲学的运作方式。 And you know, this is not just the way politics work and philosophy.
坦率地说，这也是许多新教的运作方式，比如成为循道宗 的一员，你不需要百分之百同意其他循道宗信徒的信仰。 Frankly, this is the way a lot of Protestantism works, where to be a Methodist, you don't have to 100% agree with what other Methodists believe.
没有一份信仰声明要求你必须说：“我百分之百同意，否则我就不算数。” There's no statement of faith where you have to say, I 100% agree with this or else I don't count.
至少在大多数新教中，情况并不是这样的。 It doesn't work like that in at least most of Protestantism.
所以很难统计具体数字，但我知道早在2015年，皮尤 研究中心发现，大约42%的美国人曾改变过宗教信仰。 So it's a hard thing to run the numbers on, but I know that back in 2015, the Pew Research Center found that some 42% of Americans had switched religions.
这是一个巨大的数字。 That's a huge number.
但即使是这个数字实际上也太低了，因为我真正感兴趣的并不是…… But even that number is actually too low because the thing I was really interested in is not like...
某个人曾相信耶稣后来决定不再相信，或者反过来——我感兴趣的是基督教 内部的流动，特别是在新教内部，因为我认为这通常根本不被视为皈依。 Someone who believed in Jesus deciding they don't anymore, or vice versa—I'm interested in the movement within Christianity, and particularly within Protestantism, because I think it's often not regarded as a conversion at all.
比如说，如果某人在一个城镇里去路德宗教会，然后到了另一个城镇没有路德宗 教会，所以他们去了英国圣公会教会，或者他们是浸信会的信徒，后来去了一个 非宗派教会——这种事情从经验上看，仅仅通过与人交谈，似乎经常发生。 Like if someone is in one town and they go to a Lutheran church, and then they go into another town and they don't have it, so they go to an Anglican church, or they're Baptist and they go to a non-denominational church—that sort of thing experientially, just in talking to people, seems to happen a lot.
通常是因为一些琐碎的原因：音乐、地理位置之类的事情——这些是 你永远不会因为如此琐碎的原因而从一个宗教转到另一个宗教的。 Often for trivial reasons: the music, geography, those kinds of things—things that you would never do a major movement from religion to religion for something that trivial.
但你会看到很多这样的流动。 But you see a lot of that movement.
我们在数据中也看到了这一点。 And we see some of that in the numbers.
再次强调，很难获得准确的数据，但至少在皮尤研究中心的那项 研究中，这是2014年的宗教景观研究，发现那些在新教中长 大的人中，只有47%仍然留在他们之前所属的宗派家庭中。 Again, it's hard to get good numbers on this, but at least in that Pew Research study, which is from the 2014 Religious Landscape Study, it found that of those raised Protestant, only 47% remained in the denominational family they were in before.
请注意，你实际上仍然可以在宗派家庭内部有相当大的流动性。 Now notice you can actually still move pretty broadly within denominational families.
你可以从一个保守的浸信会信徒变成一个非常自 由的浸信会团体的成员，这不会被视为皈依。 You could go from being like a conservative Baptist to a member of a really liberal Baptist group, and it would not count as a conversion.
在这里，只有47%的人甚至留在了宗派家庭内部。 Here, only 47% stayed even within the denominational family.
其中一些人——另外的53%——完全离开了基 督教，或者他们成为了公教徒，或者其他什么。 Some of those people—the other 53%—were leaving Christianity entirely, or they were becoming Catholic or whatever.
在新教中长大的人中，有27%最终成为了另一种类型的 新教徒，所以存在这种从一个宗派到另一个宗派的流动。 27% of those raised Protestant end up becoming another type of Protestant, so there's this movement from one to another.
再次强调，这很难证明，但从经验上来说，我和足够多 的人交谈过，我认为我可以毫无矛盾地说出这一点。 And again, it's hard to prove this, but experientially, I've talked to enough people that I think I can say this without fear of a lot of contradictions.
更容易被接受的是说：“我是60%的非宗派，30%的五旬节 派，10%的浸信会信徒，等等”，然后这决定了你会去哪里。 It is much more acceptable to say, I'm 60% non-denominational, 30% Pentecostal, 10% Baptist, whatever, and that decides where you're going to go.
如果这些比例波动了，这些平衡改变了，那么你就会 去别的地方，因为没有哪个宗派声称自己是无误的。 And if those fluctuate, those balances, then you go somewhere else because none of the denominations claim to be infallible.
因此，人们也可能会想对公教采取同样的态度——比如说：“我是 60%的公教徒，30%的非宗派信徒，10%的浸信会信徒。” And so it's tempting to want to do that with Catholicism as well—say, I'm 60% Catholic, I'm 30% non-denominational, 10% Baptist.
但事情不是这样的。 But it doesn't work like that.
为什么不是这样的呢？ Why does it not work like that?
因为公教会声称自己是无误的。 Because the Catholic Church claims to be infallible.
正如耶稣不仅仅声称自己是一个好老师，公教会也不仅仅声称自己是一个好的宗派。 Just like Jesus doesn't just claim to be a good teacher, the Catholic Church doesn't just claim to be a good denomination.
公教会声称拥有一种只能来自神的权威，正如耶 稣基督声称拥有一种只能来自神的权威一样。 The Catholic Church claims a kind of authority that can only come from God, just as Jesus Christ claims a kind of authority that can only come from God.
因此，你必须以不同的方式来评估。 Now, as a result, you have to evaluate differently.
你必须问：“这个主张是真还是假？” You have to say, Is that claim true or false?
而不是问：“我是否恰好同意其中的一些内容？” Not, Do I happen to agree with some of the things?
比如说，也许公教会在三位一体的教义上很幸运，在基督论上也很幸运，你可以接受这些。 Like maybe the Catholic Church got really lucky with the Trinity, got really lucky with the Christology, and you could, I guess, hold to that.
但你不能最终说：“嗯，差不多就行了。” But what you can't do is end up saying, Eh, close enough.
《教会宪章》在梵蒂冈第二次大公会议中重申了梵蒂冈第一次大公会议所说的，关于 基督如何建立祂的教会并将祂的继承者——主教们——置于这种权威地位的角色。 Lumen Gentium in the Second Vatican Council reaffirms what Vatican I had said about the role of how Christ established His Church and put their successors, the bishops, in this position of authority.
它重申了无误性的理念，特别是关于教宗无误性的角色，指出所有关于罗马教 宗及其无误训导权的设立、永续性、意义和理由以及神圣首位的教导——这个 神圣的会议，即梵蒂冈第二次大公会议，再次提议所有信徒都要坚定地相信。 It reiterates this idea of infallibility, particularly looking at the role of papal infallibility, saying all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reasons, and sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible Magisterium—this sacred council, meaning Vatican II, again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful.
这些语言稍显技术性，但它的意思是，这不是一个可选的事情；这是你必须相信的事情。 That language is slightly technical, but it's saying this is not an optional thing; this is something you actually have to believe.
好吧，那么“我大部分同意公教会”的标准显然是不够的。 Okay, so then the standard, Well, I mostly agree with the Catholic Church, is clearly inadequate.
所以我可能会说，我想你们中的许多人也可能会说：“我要等到 我能理解一切并看到每一条公教教导的智慧时才成为公教徒。” So I might say, and I think many of you probably do say, I'm going to wait to become Catholic until I can understand everything and see the wisdom of each and every Catholic teaching.
我与一些正在探索公教信仰的人交谈过，他们有一份初步的反对清单。 I've talked to people who are exploring Catholicism, and they have an initial list of objections.
这些反对意见甚至得到了回答，但他们会说：“嗯，我还有其他 反对意见。”然后我们就不断地处理这份清单，不断地处理。 And those objections are even answered, and they say, Well, I've got some other objections, and we just keep working on that list and working on that list.
可能有一些事情在阻碍他们，而我认为这本身既 不符合圣经，也不是探索公教信仰的正确方式。 There might be a couple of things that are holding them back, and I would suggest this is itself not biblical and not a sound way to explore Catholicism.
这当然不是公教会对为什么以及何时应该成为公教徒的理解。 It is certainly not the Catholic understanding of why one should be Catholic or when one should be Catholic.
在一份名为《真理的恩赐》的文件中，关于神学家的角色，当时由拉青格枢机主教领 导的信理部谈到了如果一位神学家试图接受教会的教导但遇到一些困难时该怎么办。 In a document called Donum Veritatis, which is on the role of theologians, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, headed at the time by Cardinal Ratzinger, talked about what to do if a theologian is trying to accept a Church teaching but is grappling with some difficulties.
文件中写道：“如果尽管神学家忠诚地努力，困难仍然存在，神学家有责任向训导权 当局表明教义本身提出的问题及其为之辩护的理由，甚至是其表达方式中的问题。” It says this: If despite a loyal effort on the theologian's part, the difficulties persist, the theologian has the duty to make known to the magisterial authorities the problems raised by the teaching in itself and the arguments proposed to justify it, or even in the manner in which it is presented.
他应该以福音的精神和深切渴望解决困难的态度来做这件事。 He should do this with an evangelical spirit and with a profound desire to resolve difficulties.
他的反对意见可以促进真正的进步，并为训导权提供一个刺激 ，使教会的教导能够以更深入、更清晰的方式呈现其论点。 His objections could then contribute to real progress and provide a stimulus to the Magisterium to propose the teaching of the Church in greater depth with a clearer presentation of the argument.
所以，也许一位神学家发现教会在某些地方表达得不够清楚，需要一些澄清。 So maybe a theologian comes upon a place where the Church has not spoken very clearly, and there's some clarification needed.
以一种有益的方式提出这种反对意见可能对达成更大的清晰度非常有帮助。 Raising that objection in a helpful way could be really good in reaching greater clarity.
这并不是教会想要阻止的事情，尽管神学家被告知应该避免立即诉诸弥撒。 This is not something the Church wants to discourage, although the theologian is told you should avoid turning to the Mass immediately.
不要公开表达你的不满并试图发动一场大众运动，而是应该求助于负责的权威机构。 Don't air your grievances and try to start a mass popular campaign, but rather have recourse to the responsible authority.
因为通过试图施加公众舆论的压力，并不能帮助澄清教义问题，也不能为真理服务。 For it is not by seeking to exert the pressure of public opinion that one contributes to the clarification of doctrinal issues and renders service to the truth.
很直接，对吧？ Straightforward, right?
如果你仍然遇到困难怎么办？ What if you keep having trouble?
那么，也可能发生这样的情况：在经过一项认真研究并怀着遵从训导权教导 的愿望后，尽管毫不犹豫地努力，神学家的困难依然存在，因为相反的论点 对他来说似乎更有说服力，面对一个他觉得无法在理智上同意的命题。 Well, it can also happen that at the conclusion of a serious study undertaken with the desire to heed the Magisterium's teaching, without hesitation, the theologian's difficulty remains because the arguments to the contrary seem more persuasive to him, faced with a proposition to which he feels he cannot give his intellectual assent.
然而，神学家仍有责任对问题的更深入探讨保持开放态度。 The theologian nevertheless has the duty to remain open to a deeper examination of the question.
现在，把这放在上下文中来看，我们这里讨论的是非无误的教导。 Now, to put this in context, we're dealing here with non-infallible teaching.
可能有一些领域，教会已经发表了意见，但并不是以一种具有约束力的无误 方式，在这些情况下，神学家可能会说：“我看不明白；我就是不理解。” There may be areas where the Church has spoken but not in a binding kind of infallible way, and in those cases, the theologian might say, I don't see it; I just don't get it.
这并不是因为缺乏努力，也不是因为缺乏研究。 And it's not for lack of trying; it's not for lack of research.
教会说：“对于一个因热爱教会而怀有忠诚精神 的人来说，这种情况无疑是一种艰难的试炼。” The Church says, For a loyal spirit animated by love for the Church, such a situation can certainly prove a difficult trial.
这可能是一种呼召，要在沉默和祷告中为真理受苦，并确信如 果真理确实受到威胁，它最终会胜利——这是你可以信赖的。 It can be a call to suffer for the truth in silence and prayer, with a certainty that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail—that you can trust.
好吧，这将以某种方式得到协调。 Okay, this will somehow get harmonized.
但请注意，即使在这种情况下，也有神学家可能对 某些教会教导感到挣扎，但他们并没有公开反对。 But notice, even there, you've got theologians who may struggle with some Church teaching, and they're not publicly dissenting.
他们并没有说：“我拒绝这些中的任何一个的神圣权威。” They're not saying, I reject the divine authority of any of these.
完全不是那样的。 Nothing like that.
他们可以相信公教的主张是真实的，同时仍然说 ：“我不明白我们是如何得出这个结论的。” They can believe that the Catholic claims are true and still say, I don't understand how we're getting to this conclusion over here.
而这可能会带来巨大的痛苦。 And that can be a cause of tremendous suffering.
但请注意，教会并没有说：“哦，如果你对此感到挣扎，你就自动被 排除在外，”或者“如果你对此感到挣扎，我们就不能接纳你。” But notice what the Church isn't saying: Oh, if you struggle with this, you're automatically out, or If you struggle with this, we can't let you in.
这里并不是这样说的；而是完全不同的意思。 That is not what's being said here; something quite different.
因此，“当你理解一切并看到每一条公教教导的 智慧时”的标准显然也是不同的，也是错误的。 So the standard, When you understand everything and see the wisdom of each and every Catholic teaching, is also clearly different and false.
那么，这让我们处于什么位置呢？ So where does that leave us?
嗯，如果你理解平行关系是如何运作的，你可能会猜到。 Well, if you understand how parallels work, you can probably guess.
正如“你什么时候应该成为基督徒”的答案根植于信息与身份之间 的关系，“我什么时候应该成为公教徒？”这个问题也是如此。 Just as the answer for when you should become a Christian is one rooted in that relationship between message and identity, the question of When should I become Catholic?
它同样根植于信息与身份的关系中，而且几乎是一样的。 is also rooted in the relationship of message and identity, and it's virtually the same.
当你意识到教会就是耶稣基督所说的那位，并且她是值得信赖的，你就应该成为公教徒。 You should become Catholic when you come to realize the Church is who Jesus Christ says she is and that she can be trusted.
她之所以值得信赖，是因为她就是耶稣基督所说的那位。 And she can be trusted because she is who Jesus Christ says she is.
例如，在《马太福音》第十六章中，我们之前看 过那段经文，当时耶稣问：“人说人子是谁？” So, for instance, in Matthew chapter 16, we looked at that passage before when Jesus asked the questions, Who do men say the Son of Man is?
然后又问：“你们说我是谁？” and then, Who do you say that I am?
这完全是一个关于身份的问题，而西门彼得是那 个答对的人：“你是基督，是永生神的儿子。” It's very much this question of identity, and Simon Peter is the one who gets it right: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
嗯，请记住，这是一个著名的经文；我想我不是第一个向你指出这一点的人。 Well, remember, and this is a famous passage; I don't imagine I'm the first one pointing this out to you.
不过，看看耶稣的回应。 Look at Jesus' response, though.
祂说：“西门·巴约拿，你是有福的。” He says, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah.
注意，这里已经出现了身份的语言；祂称呼“西门 ，约拿的儿子”——这就是“巴约拿”的意思。 Notice there's already identity language coming in; He's using Simon, son of Jonah—that's what Bar-Jonah means.
“因为这不是属血肉的指示你的，乃是我在天上的父指示的。” For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
“我还告诉你——这里是单数——非常强调身份的表述——我还告诉你， 你是彼得，我要把我的教会建造在这磐石上，阴间的权柄不能胜过它。” And I tell you,—you singular—very much an identity sort of framing of this—and I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
“我要把天国的钥匙给你，凡你在地上所捆绑的，在天上 也要捆绑；凡你在地上所释放的，在天上也要释放。” I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
这段话信息量很大，但让我们从教导与身份的关系来思考这段经文。 That's a lot, but let's think about that passage in light of the relationship between teaching and identity.
一方面，你有“你是彼得”这样的身份语言。 On the one hand, you've got all the identity language of You are Peter.
你也有关于教会的身份语言；耶稣说：“我要建造我的教会。” You also have the identity language with the Church; Jesus says, I will build my Church.
那么，教会的身份是什么？ So what is the identity of the Church?
教会是属于耶稣的。这在新约中以不同的方式表达，但重点 是，教会不仅仅是信徒的集合，好像是我们构成了教会。 The Church is Jesus'. And this is worded in different ways throughout the New Testament, but the point is the Church is not just a collection of believers as if we're the ones who make the Church.
相反，根据耶稣的说法，是祂建立了教会。 Rather, according to Jesus, He's the one who makes the Church.
我很喜欢圣保罗在《以弗所书》第1章中的表达，他将 教会描述为耶稣的身体，是那充满万有者所充满的。 I love the way St. Paul puts it in Ephesians 1, where he describes the Church as Jesus' body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
好好想想这点。 Well, think about that.
如果教会是耶稣的丰满，那是你能对教会做出的最有力的陈述之一。 If the Church is the fullness of Jesus, that's about as strong a statement as you can make about the Church.
现在，耶稣在《马太福音》第16章中要么是在 谈论公教会，要么不是。这是一个身份的问题。 Now, Jesus either is or isn't talking about the Catholic Church in Matthew 16. That's a question of identity.
如果祂是在谈论公教会，那么这就是两千年来人们对祂的理解。 If He is talking about the Catholic Church, then that's how people for 2,000 years understood Him.
那么，我们都应该成为公教徒。 Well, we should all be Catholic.
如果祂不是在谈论公教会——如果祂指的是其他某个团体或某种概念，或者 对耶稣来说，只是指人们随意聚集的某种模糊概念——我们应该弄清楚。 If He's not talking about the Catholic Church—if He meant either some other body or some concept, or if to Jesus, just meant some vague concept of people gathering together however they wanted—we should find that out.
我们不应该只是假设，而是应该寻找实际的证据。 We shouldn't just assume that; we should look for actual evidence of that.
但这是一个需要回答的身份问题，因为无论教会是谁 、在哪里，圣经中都以非常重要的术语描述了它。 But that's the question of identity that should be answered because whoever and wherever the Church is, it's spoken of in these very big terms in Scripture.
它被称为真理的柱石和根基，但更重要的是，它被称为耶稣基督的丰满。 It's called the pillar and foundation of truth, but more than that, it's called the fullness of Jesus Christ.
它被称为祂的身体；被称为道成肉身的延续。 It's called His body; it's called the continuation of the Incarnation.
这就是作为基督身体的意义所在。 That's what it is to be the body of Christ.
所以这要么是真的，要么不是。但请注意，这个身份 的主张“我要建造我的教会”带有许多教导的含义。 So that either is true or isn't. But notice that this identity claim, I will build my Church, then has a lot of teaching implications.
彼得被授予天国的钥匙，这是权威的象征；他被 赋予捆绑和释放的权柄，这同样是权威的象征。 Peter is given the keys of the kingdom of heaven, which is a symbol of authority, and he's given the binding and loosening authority, which is again a symbol of authority.
所以我认为可以公平地说，如果教会真的是基督的身体，如果教会真的是基督的丰 满，如果它真的是基督所建造的教会，那么即使我走一条路而教会走另一条路，我 也应该走教会的路，因为我不是基督的新妇；我不是基督身体的最完整体现。 So I think it's fair to say if the Church really is the body of Christ, if the Church really is the fullness of Christ, if it really is the Church built by Christ, then it follows that even if I would go one way and the Church would go the other, I should go the Church's way because I'm not the Bride of Christ; I'm not the body of Christ in the fullest sense.
我不是真理的柱石和根基。 I am not the pillar and foundation of truth.
当然，我也不是它的丰满。 Certainly, I'm not the fullness of it.
我没有被授予天国的钥匙。 I have not been given the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
我没有被赋予在地上捆绑的能力，使其在天上也被捆绑， 或在地上释放的能力，使其在天上也被释放，而教会有。 I have not been given the ability to bind things on earth that will then be bound in heaven or loose things on earth that will then be loosed in heaven, and the Church has.
所以，如果我发现自己与教会不一致，特别是在任何具有约束力的教 导或任何无误的教导上，那么我就知道我应该顺服；我应该信任。 So if I find myself at odds with the Church, particularly on any binding teaching, on any infallible teaching, then I can know I should defer; I should trust.
如果我能这样说——如果我能对这一切说“是”— —那么我就处于一个适合成为公教徒的好位置。 And if I can say that—if I can say yes to all of that—then I'm in a good spot to be Catholic.
如果你能对这一切说“是”，而你还不是公教徒，那么你当然应该成为公教徒。 And if you can say yes to all that, if you're not Catholic, you should certainly become Catholic.
如果你不能对这些说“是”，那我们继续谈吧。 If you can't say yes to that, let's keep talking.
我很想了解你在旅程中的位置，也许可以更多地了解你仍在挣扎或努力理解的事情。 I'd love to kind of see where you are on the journey, maybe find out more about what are the things that you're still struggling with or grappling with.
因为显然，正如我所说，信息很重要，而信息重要的原因之一是它有助于证明身份。 Because obviously, as I say, the message matters, but one of the reasons that the message matters is because it helps to prove the identity.
一旦你确认了身份，你就可以更信任其余的信息，即使是那些你自己无法推理得出的部分。 And once you have the identity, you can trust the rest of the message more, even the parts you couldn't reason to on your own.
好的，我希望这对你有所帮助。 All right, I hope this helps.
我很希望你能在评论中分享一下你在旅程中的位置。 I'd love in the comments for you to kind of share maybe your own place on the journey.
此外，一如既往，如果你愿意，一个很好的方式来 推广这个频道就是将这样的内容分享给其他人。 And also, as always, a great way you can promote this channel, if you want to, is sharing things like this with other people.
任何形式的互动都非常有帮助，而且完全免费。 Engagements of any kind are super helpful and totally free.
这里是谢默斯的杂谈，我是乔·赫施迈尔。 For Seamus' Potpourri, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
愿神祝福你们。 God bless.