- start: 7.714
  end: 8.815
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Welcome back to Jim's Potpourri.
  zh: 欢迎回到吉姆杂谈。
- start: 8.815
  end: 10.016
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
  zh: 我是乔·赫施迈尔。
- start: 10.016
  end: 19.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: As promised, this week I want to look at the idea of the temple veil because many times Protestants will say, Why do you Catholics pray to Mary or the saints and angels?
  zh: 如同承诺的那样，这周我想探讨圣殿帘幔的含义，因为新教徒常常会问，为什么你们公教会信徒要向马利亚或圣人和天使祈祷？
- start: 20.162
  end: 21.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Don't you know you can go directly to God?
  zh: 难道你们不知道可以直接向神祷告吗？
- start: 21.804
  end: 24.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: After all, the temple veil was torn.
  zh: 毕竟，圣殿的帘幔已经裂开了。
- start: 25.026
  end: 28.328
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Or they'll say, Why do you Catholics confess your sins to a priest?
  zh: 或者他们会说，为什么你们公教会信徒要向神父告解？
- start: 28.328
  end: 30.289
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Don't you know you can go directly to God?
  zh: 难道你们不知道可以直接向神认罪吗？
- start: 30.401
  end: 36.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You know, you had the temple veil in the Old Testament, but then when Jesus dies on the cross, the veil is torn.
  zh: 你知道，在旧约中有圣殿的帘幔，但当耶稣死在十字架上时，帘幔裂开了。
- start: 36.385
  end: 38.126
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You can go directly to God now.
  zh: 现在你可以直接到神面前了。
- start: 38.687
  end: 45.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, I was asked this recently, and I quoted from this message last week, but I had permission to do so.
  zh: 最近有人问我这个问题，上周我引用了这段话，当时我是得到许可的。
- start: 45.071
  end: 52.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I'm going to do it again this week because the person who asked me had a broader question, which we looked at last week.
  zh: 这周我要再次引用，因为提问的那个人有一个更广泛的问题，我们上周已经讨论过了。
- start: 52.175
  end: 64.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'But one of the questions that the person asked was about intercession with the saints, and here''s how he put it: Now, I''ve got to say, as a Catholic, I''m going to do my best to understand what the Protestant argument is here.'
  zh: 但是那个人问的其中一个问题是关于圣人代祷的，他是这样说的：作为一个公教会信徒，我要尽力理解新教的论点。
- start: 79.522
  end: 85.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'But that it''s overwhelmingly presented in that way: Hey, why do you hold this position when this thing happened?'
  zh: 但是他们总是这样表述：嘿，既然这件事已经发生了，你为什么还坚持这种立场？
- start: 85.965
  end: 87.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The veil was torn?
  zh: 帘幔裂开了？
- start: 87.466
  end: 101.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Implied there is some kind of argument that the veil being torn means something for the topic at hand, but rarely does someone really spell out, Well, what do you think the theological implications of the torn veil are?
  zh: 这暗示着帘幔裂开对当前话题有某种含义，但很少有人真正说明，那么，你认为帘幔裂开有什么神学含义？
- start: 102.108
  end: 107.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: By all means, Protestants watching this, if you think I'm doing a bad job of representing it, let me know.
  zh: 当然了，正在观看的新教徒们，如果你们觉得我没有很好地表达你们的观点，请告诉我。
- start: 107.369
  end: 112.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I will show you what I'm hearing and then respond to those things.
  zh: 我会说明我听到的观点，然后对这些观点作出回应。
- start: 113.371
  end: 118.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And I'm going to start by showing how these claims are often kind of vague.
  zh: 我要先指出这些说法往往是如何含糊不清的。
- start: 118.532
  end: 129.875
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Here''s a good example of this sort of thing: you''ll see, A priest should not have to have this forced celibacy if that be the case, but the veil''s been torn.'
  zh: 这里有个很好的例子：你会看到有人说，如果是这样的话，祭司就不应该被强制独身，因为帘幔已经裂开了。
- start: 129.875
  end: 131.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We need no priest anyway.
  zh: 反正我们也不需要祭司。
- start: 133.7
  end: 135.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But again, too much to discuss.
  zh: 但是话说回来，这话题太大了。
- start: 136.42
  end: 138.881
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
  zh: 这就是我说的那种情况。
- start: 138.921
  end: 141.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He says forced celibacy is bad.
  zh: 他说强制独身是不好的。
- start: 142.041
  end: 148.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: By the way, we don't need priests at all because the veil is torn, as if that is a standalone argument that's just self-explanatory.
  zh: 顺便说一下，因为帘幔裂开了，所以我们根本不需要祭司，好像这是一个不言自明的独立论点。
- start: 148.462
  end: 152.083
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And then he says, Eh, too much to discuss, and moves on to the next topic.
  zh: 然后他说，唉，说不完，就转到下一个话题了。
- start: 152.123
  end: 168.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So I mentioned this at the outset to say I'm not seeing a lot of Protestants carefully articulating an actual logical step-by-step sort of argument for how they're getting from torn veils to no saints, no Mary, no intercession, no priesthood.
  zh: 所以我一开始就说，我没有看到很多新教徒仔细阐述一个逻辑性的、循序渐进的论证，来说明他们是如何从帘幔裂开推导出不需要圣人、不需要马利亚、不需要代祷、不需要祭司这些结论的。
- start: 168.989
  end: 177.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It seems to be more assumed that those are the implications of the torn veil, and I think that matters because when you actually dig into it, that's completely wrong.
  zh: 他们似乎只是假定这些都是帘幔裂开的含义，而我认为这很重要，因为当你真正深入研究时，会发现这完全是错误的。
- start: 178.356
  end: 186.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The torn veil does not mean that's the end of the priesthood in terms of priestly intercession, and it certainly doesn't mean it's the end of intercessory prayer.
  zh: 帘幔裂开并不意味着祭司代祷的职分就此终结，更不意味着代祷祈祷的终结。
- start: 186.482
  end: 202.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, we can talk about what it does mean, but I want to first get to what it doesn't. So I'm going to look at major ways popular Protestant interpretations tend to get this wrong and then say, Okay, well, if those are the wrong ways, what's the right way to interpret it?
  zh: 现在，我们可以讨论它真正的含义，但我想先说说它不是什么意思。所以我要先看看流行的新教解释在哪些主要方面理解错了，然后说，好吧，如果这些解释是错的，那么正确的解释是什么？
- start: 202.966
  end: 205.368
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Let's start with getting the priesthood wrong.
  zh: 让我们先从对祭司职分的错误理解开始。
- start: 205.488
  end: 212.352
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'This is a classic example from a popular Protestant by the name of John MacArthur: We don''t need any priests.'
  zh: 这是一个来自著名新教徒约翰·麦克阿瑟的典型例子：「我们不需要任何祭司。」
- start: 213.654
  end: 219.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Revelation 1: You are a kingdom of priests.'
  zh: 启示录第一章：「又使我们成为国民，作他父神的祭司。」
- start: 219.998
  end: 223.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We only need one high priest, and it's not the Pope.
  zh: 「我们只需要一位大祭司，而且不是教宗。」
- start: 225.293
  end: 230.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We have one mediator, the man Christ Jesus.
  zh: 「我们只有一位中保，就是人基督耶稣。」
- start: 230.618
  end: 233.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The veil is torn; we go right into the Holy of Holies.
  zh: 「帘幔已经裂开；我们可以直接进入至圣所。」
- start: 234.821
  end: 239.845
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You are a priest, and I am a priest unto God.
  zh: 「你是祭司，我也是神的祭司。」
- start: 241.047
  end: 248.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So before I respond to his position, let's just take a minute and try to understand what his position is.
  zh: 在我回应他的立场之前，让我们花点时间试着理解他的立场是什么。
- start: 248.734
  end: 258.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Because if you paid close attention, he actually made three different claims on the status of Christian priests, and on the surface, these claims are contradictory.
  zh: 因为如果你仔细注意，他实际上对基督徒祭司的身份提出了三种不同的说法，表面上看这些说法是矛盾的。
- start: 258.545
  end: 265.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And in the midst of them, he just throws out that the veil is torn, and this somehow is proving these apparently contradictory positions.
  zh: 在这些说法中，他只是随便提到帘幔裂开了，这似乎能证明这些表面上矛盾的立场。
- start: 265.788
  end: 266.948
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, what do I mean?
  zh: 那么，我是什么意思呢？
- start: 267.189
  end: 275.833
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you pay close attention to what he says, he starts by saying, We don't need any priests, so the first position is there are no Christian priests.
  zh: 如果你仔细听他说的话，他开始说「我们不需要任何祭司」，所以第一个立场是没有基督徒祭司。
- start: 276.333
  end: 280.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The second position is there is one, the great high priest, Jesus Christ.
  zh: 第二个立场是只有一位，就是大祭司耶稣基督。
- start: 281.769
  end: 284.591
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The third position is actually that all of us are priests.
  zh: 第三个立场实际上是我们所有人都是祭司。
- start: 284.591
  end: 286.311
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You're a priest, and I'm a priest.
  zh: 「你是祭司，我是祭司。」
- start: 286.852
  end: 295.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So he appears to be arguing that there are no Christian priests, that there's one Christian priest, Jesus, and that we're all Christian priests.
  zh: 所以他似乎在论证说没有基督徒祭司，只有一位基督徒祭司就是耶稣，而我们都是基督徒祭司。
- start: 296.397
  end: 304.502
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, at the outset, the reason I point this out is to say he's not even trying to harmonize how these things could all be true.
  zh: 首先，我指出这一点是要说明他甚至没有试图协调这些说法如何能够同时成立。
- start: 304.642
  end: 316.687
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, maybe if you put the right nuances on it, you could hold some version of all of those positions to say, Well, there's no priests of this type, but we're all priests of that type, and Jesus is a priest of this type.
  zh: 也许如果你适当地加以区分，你可以持有这些立场的某种版本，说这种类型的祭司不存在，但我们都是那种类型的祭司，而耶稣是这种类型的祭司。
- start: 317.348
  end: 330.175
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But I mention these apparent contradictions at the outset both to say the Protestants making this argument usually are not doing the actual intellectual work of showing how the torn veil supports any of those three positions.
  zh: 但我一开始提到这些表面上的矛盾，是要说明提出这种论点的新教徒通常没有做实际的思考工作来说明帘幔裂开如何支持这三种立场中的任何一种。
- start: 331.116
  end: 344.034
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But second, if you don't have a clear vision of what the priesthood is in your own theology, it makes it really hard to argue against the Catholic vision because your own vision of priesthood is so muddled.
  zh: 其次，如果你在自己的神学中对祭司职分没有清晰的认识，就很难反驳公教会的观点，因为你自己对祭司职分的理解是如此模糊。
- start: 344.394
  end: 348.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so you'll find Protestants who say, Well, it's actually blasphemous.
  zh: 所以你会发现新教徒说，这实际上是亵渎。
- start: 348.536
  end: 354.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's wrong to claim any human person that isn't Jesus Christ is a priest.
  zh: 说任何不是耶稣基督的人是祭司都是错误的。
- start: 354.94
  end: 359.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So Catholic priesthood, this is a scandal; this is undoing the great work of Christ.
  zh: 所以公教会的祭司制度是一个丑闻，这是在抹杀基督的伟大工作。
- start: 359.162
  end: 363.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And then in the next breath, they'll talk about how all of us are priests.
  zh: 然后马上又说我们所有人都是祭司。
- start: 363.764
  end: 376.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, if it's blasphemous and wrong, if this is a degradation of the unique act of Jesus on the cross, then how can you also say that all of us are degrading Jesus' act on the cross?
  zh: 好吧，如果这是亵渎和错误的，如果这是对耶稣在十字架上独特作为的贬低，那么你怎么又能说我们所有人都在贬低耶稣在十字架上的作为呢？
- start: 377.578
  end: 385.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So I point this out just to say, if you're a Catholic, pay careful attention to, Well, what does this Protestant person think about the priesthood?
  zh: 所以我指出这一点是要说，如果你是公教会信徒，要仔细注意，这个新教徒对祭司职分是怎么想的？
- start: 385.665
  end: 387.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Do they think there's one priest?
  zh: 他们认为只有一位祭司吗？
- start: 387.467
  end: 388.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: No priest?
  zh: 没有祭司？
- start: 388.587
  end: 389.948
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Everybody's a priest?
  zh: 人人都是祭司？
- start: 390.409
  end: 399.154
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And second, if you're a Protestant, maybe consider whether your arguments are internally coherent because I don't think MacArthur's arguments really work together.
  zh: 其次，如果你是新教徒，也许该考虑一下你的论点是否内部一致，因为我认为麦克阿瑟的论点并不能真正协调一致。
- start: 400.015
  end: 413.662
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And at the very least, many of the arguments that say the Catholic priesthood is somehow offensive to the priesthood of Christ, those, if you took them seriously, would be arguments against the idea of us being a kingdom of priests, which is clearly biblical.
  zh: 至少，很多说公教会祭司职分某种程度上冒犯了基督的祭司职分的论点，如果认真对待的话，这些论点也会反对我们是祭司的国度这一明显具有圣经依据的观点。
- start: 414.402
  end: 428.749
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So to be really clear here, as Catholics, we want to affirm that yes, we have a great high priest, Jesus Christ, and yes, all of us, by incorporation into Christ in our baptism, share in his threefold office of priest, prophet, and king.
  zh: 所以在这里要非常明确，作为公教会信徒，我们要确认，是的，我们有一位大祭司耶稣基督，是的，我们所有人通过洗礼与基督联合，都分享他作为祭司、先知和君王的三重职分。
- start: 428.869
  end: 431.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Remember, the word Christian means anointed.
  zh: 记住，基督徒这个词的意思是受膏者。
- start: 431.571
  end: 433.353
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The word Christ means anointed.
  zh: 基督这个词的意思是受膏者。
- start: 433.353
  end: 439.738
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So we're little Christs, as it were; we share in the anointed office of Christ in the threefold anointed office.
  zh: 所以我们可以说是小基督；我们分享基督受膏的三重职分。
- start: 439.738
  end: 447.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In the Old Testament, the three groups of people you see getting anointed chiefly are priests, prophets, and kings.
  zh: 在旧约中，你看到的主要受膏的三类人是祭司、先知和君王。
- start: 447.617
  end: 454.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so we understand that Christ is all of those things and that we share in some mysterious way in that threefold office of Christ.
  zh: 因此我们明白基督具有这些身份，而我们以某种奥秘的方式分享基督的这三重职分。
- start: 454.998
  end: 456.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Every one of us does.
  zh: 我们每个人都是如此。
- start: 456.959
  end: 461.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: From the ordinary layperson on the street to the Pope in Rome, everybody in between.
  zh: 从街上普通的平信徒到罗马的教宗，所有人都是如此。
- start: 462.019
  end: 472.581
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So I want to say that at the outset, but we also believe that some, but not all, are called to serve as Catholic priests in a unique capacity.
  zh: 我想首先说明这一点，但我们也相信，有些人，而不是所有人，被召以独特的身份作为公教会的祭司服事。
- start: 472.581
  end: 477.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: They're called to a different kind of priesthood, the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek.
  zh: 他们被召担任不同类型的祭司职分，就是照麦基洗德的等次的祭司职分。
- start: 477.794
  end: 482.995
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Melchizedek, you'll remember, in the Old Testament offers bread and wine, which is a prefigurement of the Mass.
  zh: 你会记得，在旧约中麦基洗德献上饼和酒，这是弥撒的预表。
- start: 482.995
  end: 500.918
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Jesus is described as being a priest in the order of Melchizedek, and he calls not all of his followers, as we're going to see; he calls the Twelve, he calls the Apostles, he calls the chosen top-down, if you will, clerical leadership, and he tells them to offer the Eucharist.
  zh: 耶稣被描述为照麦基洗德等次的祭司，他并不是呼召所有跟随者，我们将会看到；他呼召十二使徒，他呼召使徒们，可以说他呼召自上而下被拣选的教会领袖，并吩咐他们举行圣餐。
- start: 501.318
  end: 506.899
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Do this and do this in remembrance of me isn't to you and me; it's to the clergy.
  zh: 「你们要如此行，为的是记念我」这话不是对你我说的，而是对神职人员说的。
- start: 507.597
  end: 515.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so that's why we believe that some priests share in this in a way that not all the baptized do.
  zh: 这就是为什么我们相信某些祭司以一种并非所有受洗者都有的方式分享这职分。
- start: 515.682
  end: 519.104
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There's also good evidence of this even in the Old Testament.
  zh: 即使在旧约中也有很好的证据支持这一点。
- start: 519.364
  end: 528.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So remember, MacArthur's position would seem to logically say, Okay, you could say there are no priests, or that everybody's a priest, or that just Jesus is a priest.
  zh: 所以请记住，麦克阿瑟的立场似乎在逻辑上是说，好吧，你可以说没有祭司，或者人人都是祭司，或者只有耶稣是祭司。
- start: 528.99
  end: 537.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'The only position he hasn''t staked out is the one I just described: that some Christians, but not all, are called to be priests.'
  zh: 他唯一没有提出的立场就是我刚才描述的：一些基督徒，而不是所有人，被召作祭司。
- start: 538.57
  end: 543.012
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And the thing that's radical about that is Scripture clearly says that.
  zh: 而最令人惊讶的是圣经明确地说了这一点。
- start: 543.332
  end: 552.355
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Go to the last chapter of Isaiah, Isaiah 66. God foretells who is going to come and gather the nations and that they'll offer true worship.
  zh: 翻到以赛亚书最后一章，第六十六章。神预言谁要来招聚万国，他们要献上真实的敬拜。
- start: 553.376
  end: 557.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He even talks about how they're going to be bringing an offering to the Lord—that's a sacrifice.
  zh: 他甚至谈到他们要如何将供物带到耶和华面前——这是献祭。
- start: 557.998
  end: 565.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, as we're going to see, that's really important because this involves the language of worship and the temple, and this was something Gentiles couldn't do before.
  zh: 现在，我们将会看到，这非常重要，因为这涉及到敬拜和圣殿的用语，这是外邦人以前不能做的事。
- start: 565.321
  end: 568.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: They couldn't make these offerings in the Holy of Holies.
  zh: 他们不能在至圣所献这些祭。
- start: 569.406
  end: 572.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And then, so they're coming to the holy mountain, Jerusalem.
  zh: 然后，他们要来到圣山耶路撒冷。
- start: 573.927
  end: 586.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In Isaiah 66, verse 20, God says, And some of them, not one of them, not none of them, not all of them, some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.
  zh: 在以赛亚书六十六章二十节，神说：「我也要从他们中间取人为祭司，为利未人。」注意是「他们中间取人」，不是一个人，不是没有人，也不是所有人。
- start: 586.791
  end: 604.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So in the New Covenant, when God comes and gathers his people together—which he's done; Jesus came into history, spoiler alert—he gathers the people together, he brings the Gentiles into the people of God, and he chooses some of these believers, not all of them, not none of them, some of them to serve as priests.
  zh: 所以在新约中，当神来招聚他的子民——他已经这样做了，耶稣已经来到历史中——他招聚百姓，把外邦人带入神的子民中，他拣选其中一些信徒，不是所有人，也不是没有人，而是其中一些人作祭司。
- start: 605.682
  end: 610.905
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And the fulfillment of the Levites, who are the assistants to the priests, is the diaconate.
  zh: 而利未人的应验，就是协助祭司的人，就是执事职分。
- start: 611.246
  end: 614.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is how Christians understood this from extremely early on.
  zh: 这是基督徒从很早就有的理解。
- start: 614.108
  end: 632.052
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We find in the year 96, Pope Clement, in a letter called First Clement, comparing the orders of bishop, presbyter (what would now be called priest), deacon, and layman to the Old Testament structure of high priest, priest, Levite, and layman.
  zh: 我们发现在公元96年，教宗克莱门特在《克莱门特一书》中，将主教、长老（现在称为祭司）、执事和平信徒的等级与旧约中的大祭司、祭司、利未人和平民的结构作比较。
- start: 632.612
  end: 640.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So this is not some crazy reading of Isaiah 66; it's just God saying he's going to gather the nations together, and he literally does that.
  zh: 所以这不是对以赛亚书六十六章的某种疯狂解读；这只是神说他要招聚万国，而他确实这样做了。
- start: 641.679
  end: 645.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So that points to there being an actual priesthood.
  zh: 所以这表明确实存在着一个实际的祭司职分。
- start: 645.442
  end: 657.371
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: John MacArthur's position somehow is that the temple veil is contrary to that, but the temple veil being torn isn't contrary to everybody being a priest, and it's not contrary to nobody being a priest.
  zh: 约翰·麦克阿瑟的立场似乎是说圣殿的帘幔与此相反，但帘幔裂开并不与人人都是祭司相矛盾，也不与没有人是祭司相矛盾。
- start: 657.85
  end: 659.19
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But there's no work being done there.
  zh: 但这里没有做任何论证工作。
- start: 659.19
  end: 663.151
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: See, that's what I mean by having a very weak vision of the priesthood.
  zh: 看，这就是我所说的对祭司职分的理解非常薄弱。
- start: 663.291
  end: 668.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so there's no coherent way you're getting from a torn temple veil to saying everybody or nobody can be a priest.
  zh: 所以从圣殿帘幔裂开到说人人都可以是祭司或没有人可以是祭司，这中间没有任何连贯的逻辑。
- start: 668.792
  end: 670.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We can't have some people.
  zh: 我们不能有部分人是祭司。
- start: 670.473
  end: 676.274
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Okay, so that's the first way Protestants in the popular interpretation get this wrong.
  zh: 好，这是新教徒在流行解释中犯的第一个错误。
- start: 677.174
  end: 680.254
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The second thing they tend to get wrong is intercession.
  zh: 他们倾向于犯的第二个错误是关于代祷。
- start: 680.655
  end: 685.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Here''s a clip to show what I mean: Jesus is now our intercessor.'
  zh: 这里有一段话可以说明我的意思：「耶稣现在是我们的中保。」
- start: 686.456
  end: 688.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We don't go through man.
  zh: 「我们不需要通过人。」
- start: 688.614
  end: 699.874
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Under the Roman Catholic doctrine, all you do is pray through a priest, and when you pray for that priest, if you want to go a little higher order, you get to pray to monsignor.
  zh: 「在罗马公教会的教义下，你所做的就是通过祭司祈祷，如果你想更上一层，你就去向蒙席祈祷。」
- start: 699.874
  end: 703.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: If you go past him, you get to cardinal.
  zh: 「如果你越过他，你就到枢机主教那里。」
- start: 703.036
  end: 710.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: If you go past him and you've got enough money, you might get up to Daddy Fran himself, go over there before the Pope in Rome.
  zh: 「如果你越过他，而且你有足够的钱，你可能就能到教宗方济各本人那里，去到罗马教宗面前。」
- start: 710.642
  end: 713.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But what you do is pray through a man.
  zh: 「但你所做的就是通过人来祈祷。」
- start: 713.004
  end: 716.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then if you get past Daddy Fran, they tell you you've got to go through Mary.
  zh: 「然后如果你越过方济各，他们告诉你必须通过马利亚。」
- start: 716.907
  end: 722.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: If you get through Mary, they don't tell you where you go after that; it's no man's land anyway, so who could make a guess?
  zh: 「如果你通过了马利亚，他们也不告诉你之后要去哪里；反正那是无人之地，谁能猜得到呢？」
- start: 723.086
  end: 731.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But the very idea in New Testament Christianity is that we do not go through man to reach God.
  zh: 但新约基督教的核心理念是我们不需要通过人来接近神。
- start: 732.11
  end: 735.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Now, under the Old Testament covenant, that's the only way they could get there.
  zh: 在旧约之下，那是他们唯一可以接近神的方式。
- start: 735.531
  end: 744.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So that was a very confusing description of Catholic theology—the idea that we're praying to priests, and if we have a big thing, we pray to monsignor.
  zh: 所以这是对公教会神学非常混乱的描述——说我们向祭司祈祷，如果有大事就向蒙席祈祷。
- start: 744.975
  end: 746.795
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I don't actually know what he's talking about.
  zh: 我实在不知道他在说什么。
- start: 747.175
  end: 751.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That doesn't resemble anything I've ever seen any Catholic do, and I've been Catholic my entire life.
  zh: 这与我一生作为公教会信徒所见到的任何事情都不相符。
- start: 751.82
  end: 754.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Nevertheless, he seems to be making five claims.
  zh: 尽管如此，他似乎在提出五个论点。
- start: 755.241
  end: 758.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number one: Jesus is our only intercessor.'
  zh: 第一：耶稣是我们唯一的中保。
- start: 759.083
  end: 769.627
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number two: Catholics think that you''re not able to pray directly to God; you have to have the intercession of a priest, even though he words it as like we''re praying to the priest.'
  zh: 第二：公教会认为你不能直接向神祈祷；你必须要有祭司的代祷，尽管他的说法好像我们是在向祭司祈祷。
- start: 769.627
  end: 777.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He might mean we have to ask the priest to pray for us, like we can't pray to our Father ourselves; the priest has to pray for us or something.
  zh: 他可能是说我们必须请祭司为我们祈祷，好像我们不能自己向天父祈祷；必须要祭司为我们祈祷之类的。
- start: 778.632
  end: 782.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The third claim is that this somehow explains why Catholics pray to Mary.
  zh: 第三个论点是这somehow解释了为什么公教会信徒向马利亚祈祷。
- start: 782.213
  end: 786.415
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, before he was talking about priests and monsignors and cardinals and the Pope.
  zh: 刚才他还在谈论祭司、蒙席、枢机主教和教宗。
- start: 786.415
  end: 792.797
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's like, okay, he's making some kind of argument—I don't know what, but some kind of argument against the priesthood, against the clergy.
  zh: 好吧，他在提出某种论点——我不知道是什么，但是某种反对祭司职分、反对神职人员的论点。
- start: 792.797
  end: 797.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But then he starts talking about praying to Mary, and it's like, well, Mary's not a priest; she's not like the super Pope.
  zh: 但接着他开始谈论向马利亚祈祷，可是，马利亚不是祭司啊；她也不是什么超级教宗。
- start: 797.759
  end: 799.52
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So what is he talking about here?
  zh: 那么他到底在说什么？
- start: 800.761
  end: 806.746
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Is the argument that Catholics go to clergy to pray for them until they don't pray?
  zh: 他的论点是说公教会信徒找神职人员为他们祈祷直到他们不祈祷吗？
- start: 806.746
  end: 810.189
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Or they pray, but they only pray to saints in heaven and Mary?
  zh: 还是说他们确实祈祷，但只向天上的圣人和马利亚祈祷？
- start: 810.79
  end: 813.553
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Or that we only pray to Mary if we have a lot of money and influence?
  zh: 还是说只有当我们有很多钱和影响力时才能向马利亚祈祷？
- start: 813.553
  end: 824.884
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I mean, I'd love to see him explain all the little old ladies in the pews with their rosaries out, like, Oh, they must be so rich; they must be so powerful that the Pope gave them special permission to pray to Mary.
  zh: 我是说，我真想看看他怎么解释那些在教堂长椅上拿着玫瑰经的老太太们，好像在说，哦，她们一定很富有；一定很有权势，所以教宗才特别允许她们向马利亚祈祷。
- start: 825.526
  end: 836.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I have no idea what this claim is, but this is the kind of stuff, as a Catholic, you hear Protestants claiming about Catholicism, and it's like, well, just stop and try to think about the words you're saying.
  zh: 我完全不明白这种说法是什么意思，但这就是作为公教会信徒，你会听到新教徒对公教会的说法，真该停下来想想你说的话是什么意思。
- start: 836.791
  end: 837.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Does this make any sense?
  zh: 这说得通吗？
- start: 837.892
  end: 840.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And it doesn't seem to me that it does.
  zh: 在我看来是说不通的。
- start: 840.433
  end: 842.534
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But that's his fourth apparent claim.
  zh: 但这是他明显提出的第四个论点。
- start: 843.854
  end: 847.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Fifth, he says Christians do not go through man to reach God.
  zh: 第五，他说基督徒不需要通过人来接近神。
- start: 847.476
  end: 851.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He makes that very clear; like, you just do not do that.
  zh: 他说得很清楚；就是说，你绝对不能那样做。
- start: 851.538
  end: 859.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And sixth, under the Old Covenant, that was the only way—you had to go through a man to reach God; you couldn't just pray directly to God.
  zh: 第六，在旧约之下，那是唯一的方式——你必须通过人来接近神；你不能直接向神祈祷。
- start: 859.606
  end: 861.447
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So you needed intercession.
  zh: 所以你需要代祷。
- start: 861.627
  end: 865.429
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, I wanted to say at the outset that literally all five of those claims are wrong.
  zh: 现在，我想一开始就说明这五个论点实际上都是错误的。
- start: 865.989
  end: 869.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's not true that Jesus is our only intercessor.
  zh: 说耶稣是我们唯一的代祷者是不对的。
- start: 869.191
  end: 872.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's not true that Catholics can't pray directly to God.
  zh: 说公教会信徒不能直接向神祈祷也是不对的。
- start: 872.252
  end: 875.193
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Every time you've prayed to our Father, you've prayed directly to God.
  zh: 每次你向天父祈祷时，你都是在直接向神祈祷。
- start: 875.694
  end: 879.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's not true that this is why we go to Mary, because we think we can't go to God directly.
  zh: 说我们向马利亚祈祷是因为我们认为不能直接向神祈祷，这是不对的。
- start: 879.876
  end: 883.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Like, even in the Rosary, you have an Our Father next to a Hail Mary.
  zh: 比如，即使在玫瑰经中，你也有天主经和圣母经并列。
- start: 884.153
  end: 888.154
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's clearly not an either-or situation from the Catholic side of things.
  zh: 从公教会的角度来看，这显然不是非此即彼的情况。
- start: 888.694
  end: 896.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number four: the idea that Christians can''t go through man to reach God would have been total news to the readers of the New Testament.'
  zh: 第四：说基督徒不能通过人来接近神，这对新约的读者来说完全是闻所未闻的。
- start: 896.296
  end: 903.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The paralyzed man who's brought by his friends to Jesus—did Jesus say, Hey, you can't go through a man to reach me?
  zh: 那个被朋友带到耶稣面前的瘫子——耶稣有说过：「嘿，你不能通过人来接近我吗？」
- start: 904.338
  end: 907.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Totally nonsensical, totally theologically unsound.
  zh: 完全没有道理，在神学上完全站不住脚。
- start: 907.998
  end: 924.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Leaving aside the fact that Jesus is himself a man as well as God, there are all sorts of cases where people go to men, like the apostles, to reach God in all sorts of ways, including hearing the Gospel in the first place, but also, as we're going to see, in terms of intercession.
  zh: 撇开耶稣本身既是人又是神这个事实不谈，有各种各样的例子表明人们通过人，比如使徒们，以各种方式接近神，包括最初听到福音，而且正如我们将要看到的，也包括代祷。
- start: 925.272
  end: 931.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And then, it's also, as we're going to see, not true that in the Old Covenant you had to go to a priest to get to God.
  zh: 然后，正如我们将要看到的，在旧约中你必须通过祭司才能接近神，这也是不对的。
- start: 931.996
  end: 938.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We find people praying directly to God without an intercessor in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.
  zh: 我们在旧约和新约中都能看到人们不通过代祷者直接向神祈祷。
- start: 938.7
  end: 945.106
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So none of those five claims are true, but you'll hear variations of those five things regularly said.
  zh: 所以这五个论点都不对，但你会经常听到这五点的各种变体。
- start: 945.106
  end: 953.312
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, I'm going to unpack a little bit more on how in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament people pray directly to God when we look at getting prayer wrong.
  zh: 现在，当我们讨论对祈祷的错误理解时，我要更详细地解释在旧约和新约中人们是如何直接向神祈祷的。
- start: 953.413
  end: 966.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'But right now, I want to focus just on the intercessory claims: the idea that Jesus is our only intercessor, we''re not allowed to go through any other man, and that in the Old Testament you had to go through an intercessor—none of that is true.'
  zh: 但现在，我只想专注于关于代祷的说法：即耶稣是我们唯一的代祷者，我们不能通过任何其他人，而在旧约中你必须通过代祷者——这些都不是真的。
- start: 967.025
  end: 971.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So that's claims one, four, and five if you're keeping track of his five claims.
  zh: 所以如果你在记他的五个论点，这是第一、第四和第五个论点。
- start: 971.828
  end: 989.879
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And I think it would suffice to say that one of the passages that regularly gets mis-cited here and taken totally out of context is the first half of the sentence in 1 Timothy 2, verse 5. It says, For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
  zh: 我认为可以说，这里经常被错误引用和完全断章取义的段落之一是提摩太前书二章五节的上半句。经上说：「因为只有一位神，在神和人中间，也只有一位中保，乃是降世为人的基督耶稣。」
- start: 990.659
  end: 997.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Protestants who lean on this verse tend to stop at verse 5, even though it's half of a sentence.
  zh: 依赖这节经文的新教徒往往在第五节就停下来，尽管这只是一句话的一半。
- start: 997.061
  end: 997.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And why do they do that?
  zh: 为什么他们要这样做？
- start: 997.841
  end: 1003.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Because if you read verse 6, then you realize this is not an argument against intercessory prayer whatsoever.
  zh: 因为如果你读第六节，就会发现这根本不是反对代祷的论据。
- start: 1004.403
  end: 1013.487
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That this is talking about how Jesus is our one mediator because he gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was born at the proper time.
  zh: 这里是在讲耶稣如何是我们唯一的中保，因为他舍己作万人的赎价，到了时候这事就证明出来。
- start: 1013.807
  end: 1024.231
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In calling Jesus our one mediator, he's the bridge between God and man in the sense that he dies on the cross and pays for our sins, and nobody claims somebody else did that.
  zh: 称耶稣为我们唯一的中保，是指他通过在十字架上的死亡并为我们的罪付上代价，成为神和人之间的桥梁，没有人说别人做了这事。
- start: 1024.779
  end: 1027.44
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There's no Catholic who is saying, You know what?
  zh: 没有任何公教会信徒会说：「你知道吗？」
- start: 1027.62
  end: 1030.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I've got to go to the monsignor because he died on the cross for my sins.
  zh: 「我必须去找蒙席，因为他在十字架上为我的罪而死。」
- start: 1031.342
  end: 1033.143
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: No, that's not a position.
  zh: 不，这不是我们的立场。
- start: 1033.243
  end: 1038.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If that's what you think Catholics believe, then that's just not Catholic theology at all.
  zh: 如果你认为这是公教会的信仰，那完全不是公教会的神学。
- start: 1038.905
  end: 1048.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: When we go to those people with us on earth or we go to the saints in heaven and we ask for their prayers, it's not because we think they died on the cross for us.
  zh: 当我们去找地上的人或天上的圣人请求他们祈祷时，不是因为我们认为他们为我们死在十字架上。
- start: 1048.25
  end: 1062.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Jesus is the sole mediator; he's the one mediator in the sense that Paul is talking about in 1 Timothy 2, verses 5 and 6. But what Paul is not talking about is that Jesus is our only intercessor.
  zh: 耶稣是唯一的中保；他是保罗在提摩太前书二章五、六节所说的那种意义上的唯一中保。但保罗并不是说耶稣是我们唯一的代祷者。
- start: 1062.049
  end: 1063.19
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: How do we know that?
  zh: 我们怎么知道这一点？
- start: 1063.19
  end: 1071.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: By actually reading 1 Timothy 2. Because verses 5 and 6 are the third sentence of the chapter.
  zh: 通过实际阅读提摩太前书第二章。因为第五、六节是这一章的第三句话。
- start: 1071.874
  end: 1090.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'The first sentence begins this way: First of all then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.'
  zh: 第一句话是这样开始的：「我劝你，第一要为万人恳求、祷告、代求、祝谢；为君王和一切在位的，也该如此，使我们可以敬虔、端正、平安无事的度日。」
- start: 1090.743
  end: 1099.406
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So literally, if you just read two sentences before, you'd realize that we are called to intercession, not that we're prohibited from intercession.
  zh: 所以实际上，如果你只读前面两句话，你就会意识到我们是被召去代祷，而不是被禁止代祷。
- start: 1100.086
  end: 1103.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Like, we absolutely should be a people of intercession.
  zh: 我们确实应该成为代祷的子民。
- start: 1104.184
  end: 1115.447
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so that's one of the reasons why, like in a Christian context, if everyone around you is a Christian, you don't say, Well, I'm not allowed to pray or intercede for anybody because they're all Christians, and they have to go directly to God.
  zh: 这就是为什么在基督教环境中，如果你周围的人都是基督徒，你不会说，好吧，我不能为任何人祈祷或代祷，因为他们都是基督徒，他们必须直接向神祷告。
- start: 1115.668
  end: 1116.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Nonsense!
  zh: 荒谬！
- start: 1116.688
  end: 1120.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That is nowhere written in the Bible, Old or New Testament.
  zh: 这在圣经中，无论是旧约还是新约都找不到。
- start: 1121.669
  end: 1125.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'The exact opposite is written: that you are to make prayer and intercession for them.'
  zh: 恰恰相反的内容才是写在圣经里的：你要为他们祈祷和代求。
- start: 1126.131
  end: 1130.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And Paul is very clear that this is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God.
  zh: 保罗很清楚地说这是好的，在神面前是可悦纳的。
- start: 1130.892
  end: 1131.572
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: What is?
  zh: 什么是可悦纳的？
- start: 1131.572
  end: 1133.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Us interceding and praying for one another.
  zh: 我们为彼此代祷和祈祷。
- start: 1135.862
  end: 1147.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That is literally the two sentences prior to the one taken out of context to argue this totally false vision that we're not allowed to have intercession.
  zh: 这就是在那句被断章取义来论证我们不能代祷这种完全错误观点的经文之前的两句话。
- start: 1148.089
  end: 1151.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So then, what about getting prayer wrong?
  zh: 那么，关于对祈祷的错误理解呢？
- start: 1152.451
  end: 1155.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I said I was going to get to that, and I intend to do so.
  zh: 我说过要谈到这一点，我打算现在就谈。
- start: 1156.494
  end: 1164.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Instead of using a clip, there's actually a book that I think does the clearest job of presenting an argument I've heard elsewhere.
  zh: 与其用一段录音，这里有一本书我认为最清楚地表达了我在别处听到过的论点。
- start: 1165.369
  end: 1168.832
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The book is called Hebrew Foundations of the Christian Faith.
  zh: 这本书叫做《基督教信仰的希伯来基础》。
- start: 1168.892
  end: 1172.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And I'm not claiming it's any great, well-respected book.
  zh: 我并不是说这是什么伟大的、备受尊重的书。
- start: 1172.054
  end: 1177.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I don't mean that to knock the book; I just mean I'm not citing it because everybody loves this book or something like that.
  zh: 我不是要贬低这本书；我只是说我引用它不是因为每个人都喜欢这本书之类的原因。
- start: 1177.118
  end: 1184.023
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I'm citing it because I've heard variations of this argument before and think this clearly presents a sort of vision.
  zh: 我引用它是因为我以前听过这种论点的各种版本，而且认为这本书清楚地表达了某种观点。
- start: 1184.624
  end: 1188.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Because it's not just, Oh, the temple veil's torn; therefore, I'm right.
  zh: 因为这不仅仅是说，哦，圣殿的帘幔裂开了；所以我是对的。
- start: 1188.087
  end: 1192.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He's explaining why he thinks the temple veil being torn means that he's right.
  zh: 他在解释为什么他认为圣殿帘幔裂开意味着他是对的。
- start: 1192.75
  end: 1202.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'So this is David Hampshire, and here''s what he says: As a result of Jesus'' death, for those who wish to know and draw near to God, this is now possible.'
  zh: 这是大卫·汉普郡所说的：由于耶稣的死，对那些想要认识神和亲近神的人来说，这现在成为可能了。
- start: 1203.183
  end: 1221.518
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: When one of the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, Jesus replied, 'When you pray, say, Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name' (Luke 11:1). For his disciples, thinking of ordinary people being able to pray directly to God would have been unusual; hence the question.
  zh: 当一个门徒请求耶稣教导他们如何祷告时，耶稣回答说：「你们祷告的时候，要说：我们在天上的父，愿人都尊你的名为圣」（路加福音11:1）。对他的门徒来说，普通人能够直接向神祷告是不寻常的；因此才有这个问题。
- start: 1222.66
  end: 1234.997
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Following the tearing of the temple veil, enabling access for all who wish to draw near to God, the sacrifice of himself, a type of veil (Hebrews 10:20), is the only way that we can approach God.
  zh: 随着圣殿帘幔的裂开，使所有想要亲近神的人都能接近神，他的牺牲，作为一种帘幔（希伯来书10:20），是我们能够亲近神的唯一方式。
- start: 1235.957
  end: 1239.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Okay, so there are a couple of things that I appreciate about this.
  zh: 好的，这里有几点我觉得值得肯定。
- start: 1239.358
  end: 1241.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: First, he's actually trying to make an argument.
  zh: 首先，他确实在试图提出论据。
- start: 1241.739
  end: 1249.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He's looking at Scripture and then trying to show how that means what he believes about the temple veil.
  zh: 他查考圣经，然后试图说明这如何支持他对圣殿帘幔的理解。
- start: 1249.042
  end: 1252.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So I appreciate that he's making an argument; I appreciate that he's trying to incorporate Scripture.
  zh: 所以我赞赏他在提出论据；我赞赏他试图引用圣经。
- start: 1252.967
  end: 1257.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The problem is the two verses that he cites actually contradict the claims that he's making.
  zh: 问题是他引用的两节经文实际上与他所主张的相矛盾。
- start: 1257.908
  end: 1270.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Hebrews 10:20 doesn't interpret Jesus' sacrifice to say this is the only way we're allowed to go to God, and Luke 11:1 doesn't say it was unusual for people to be praying to God.
  zh: 希伯来书10:20并没有将耶稣的牺牲解释为这是我们被允许亲近神的唯一方式，路加福音11:1也没有说人们向神祷告是不寻常的。
- start: 1271.172
  end: 1280.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So Hampshire is making two apparent claims, and again, these are ones that I've seen lots of other people seemingly making but often not spelling out quite this clearly.
  zh: 所以汉普郡提出了两个明显的论点，这些论点我也看到很多其他人似乎在提出，但往往没有说得这么清楚。
- start: 1281.46
  end: 1286.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The first thing is, you know, before the temple veil was torn, ordinary people just didn't pray directly to God.
  zh: 第一点是，你知道，在圣殿帘幔裂开之前，普通人根本不直接向神祷告。
- start: 1286.402
  end: 1292.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It'd be super weird to see a regular guy praying; you'd be like, What?
  zh: 看到普通人祷告会非常奇怪；你会说，什么？
- start: 1292.925
  end: 1293.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You can't do that!
  zh: 你不能那样做！
- start: 1293.566
  end: 1296.347
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You have to be a priest or a monsignor or something to do that.
  zh: 你必须是祭司或蒙席之类的才能那样做。
- start: 1296.407
  end: 1300.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's kind of the idea—that was what Judaism must have looked like.
  zh: 这就是他们的想法——认为犹太教一定是这个样子的。
- start: 1300.589
  end: 1307.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And the people making this claim never think to ask, Well, Jews today, when they don't have a temple, do they pray directly to God?
  zh: 而且提出这种说法的人从来不想问问，那么，今天的犹太人，当他们没有圣殿时，是否直接向神祷告？
- start: 1307.592
  end: 1308.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: What's going on there?
  zh: 这是怎么回事？
- start: 1309.573
  end: 1318.228
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There's not even that level of, Huh, I've been making this claim about the Old Covenant; does this match up with what we see about people praying in the Old Covenant?
  zh: 甚至没有这种程度的思考：嗯，我一直在对旧约做这种说法；这与我们在旧约中看到的人们祷告的情况相符吗？
- start: 1318.429
  end: 1318.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There's none of that.
  zh: 完全没有这种思考。
- start: 1318.909
  end: 1326.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But this is a popular belief, and many Protestants seem to think you had to go through a priest to pray in the Old Covenant.
  zh: 但这是一种流行的观念，许多新教徒似乎认为在旧约中你必须通过祭司才能祷告。
- start: 1327.476
  end: 1335.943
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The second apparent claim is that the torn temple veil means that because of Jesus' death on the cross, we can now draw close to God in prayer.
  zh: 第二个明显的说法是，帘幔裂开意味着因为耶稣在十字架上的死，我们现在可以在祷告中亲近神。
- start: 1336.556
  end: 1340.457
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Okay, now, as you may suspect, I disagree with both of these.
  zh: 好，现在，你可能已经猜到，我不同意这两点。
- start: 1340.457
  end: 1343.058
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In fact, I think both of these are demonstrably false.
  zh: 事实上，我认为这两点都是可以证明是错误的。
- start: 1343.918
  end: 1346.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So how does this get prayer wrong?
  zh: 那么这是如何错误理解祷告的呢？
- start: 1346.839
  end: 1347.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, a few ways.
  zh: 嗯，有几个方面。
- start: 1348.059
  end: 1355.581
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Let's start with the fact that Luke 11, verse 1, contradicts this whole vision, which again, remember, this is one of the two verses that he's trying to point to.
  zh: 让我们从路加福音11章1节开始，这节经文与这整个观点相矛盾，记住，这是他试图引用的两节经文之一。
- start: 1356.742
  end: 1365.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Jesus is praying in a certain place, and when he's done praying, one of the disciples says to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.'
  zh: 耶稣在一个地方祷告，祷告完了，有一个门徒对他说：「求主教导我们祷告，像约翰教导他的门徒。」
- start: 1365.356
  end: 1367.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, did John tear the temple veil?
  zh: 那么，约翰撕裂圣殿的帘幔了吗？
- start: 1367.537
  end: 1374.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: No. Were they saying, We've never known that we were allowed to pray, but John told his disciples they were?
  zh: 不。他们是在说，我们从来不知道我们可以祷告，但约翰告诉他的门徒他们可以吗？
- start: 1374.922
  end: 1378.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: No. This is a much simpler story.
  zh: 不是。这是一个简单得多的故事。
- start: 1378.944
  end: 1386.628
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: They want to learn how to pray better, so they're going to their master and asking how to pray, the same way Christians still do 2,000 years on.
  zh: 他们想学习如何更好地祷告，所以他们去找他们的老师请教如何祷告，就像基督徒2000年来一直在做的那样。
- start: 1387.249
  end: 1399.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Literally, if you talk to someone who has spiritual direction or is in some sort of spiritual authority over someone else, or they're mentoring someone, any of those things, I can just about guarantee one of the most common questions they answer is, How do I pray?
  zh: 实际上，如果你和一个有属灵指导或对他人有某种属灵权柄的人交谈，或者他们在指导某人，我几乎可以保证他们最常回答的问题之一就是：我该如何祷告？
- start: 1400.233
  end: 1403.275
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Not, Am I allowed to pray because of the temple veil?
  zh: 不是问，因为圣殿的帘幔我可以祷告吗？
- start: 1403.555
  end: 1405.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: but just, I want to know how to talk to God.
  zh: 而是，我想知道如何与神交谈。
- start: 1405.476
  end: 1407.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And it's strange and confusing when you first start to do it.
  zh: 当你刚开始做这件事时，会感到陌生和困惑。
- start: 1408.538
  end: 1410.738
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so the apostles are trying to pray better.
  zh: 所以使徒们是在努力学习更好地祷告。
- start: 1410.899
  end: 1414.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: They prayed before this; this isn't the first time they're praying.
  zh: 他们之前就祷告；这不是他们第一次祷告。
- start: 1415.001
  end: 1417.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: They're just trying to learn how to do it right.
  zh: 他们只是在试图学习如何正确地做。
- start: 1418.002
  end: 1424.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's Luke 11, verse 1. It presupposes they can pray, and not only that, but that John has already been teaching this.
  zh: 这就是路加福音11章1节。它预设他们可以祷告，不仅如此，约翰已经在教导这个了。
- start: 1424.762
  end: 1428.305
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In fact, it's not just John.
  zh: 事实上，不仅仅是约翰。
- start: 1428.325
  end: 1434.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: One of the knocks against Jesus and the disciples wasn't that they were so weird because they prayed; it was literally the opposite.
  zh: 对耶稣和门徒的批评不是因为他们祷告很奇怪；恰恰相反。
- start: 1435.131
  end: 1459.995
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In Luke 5, verse 33, the knock on Jesus and the disciples, or at least on the disciples, was that they were slack in prayer—that they didn't seem to take prayer and fasting seriously enough compared to John the Baptist and even the Pharisees.
  zh: 在路加福音5章33节，对耶稣和门徒，或至少对门徒的批评是，他们在祷告上松懈——与施洗约翰甚至法利赛人相比，他们似乎对祷告和禁食不够认真。
- start: 1460.676
  end: 1470.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So the idea that this was some radical new thing that Jesus was bringing to ordinary people is just plainly contradicted by the New Testament.
  zh: 所以认为这是耶稣带给普通人的某种激进的新事物的想法，明显与新约相矛盾。
- start: 1470.522
  end: 1475.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: No, the surprising thing wasn't that they were praying; the surprising thing was that they didn't seem to be praying enough.
  zh: 不，令人惊讶的不是他们在祷告；令人惊讶的是他们似乎祷告得不够。
- start: 1477.346
  end: 1483.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Then, jumping forward to Luke 18, you've got Jesus' parable where he talks about two men going up to the temple to pray.
  zh: 然后，到了路加福音18章，你看到耶稣的比喻，讲到两个人上圣殿去祷告。
- start: 1483.332
  end: 1485.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: One of them is a Pharisee, the other a tax collector.
  zh: 一个是法利赛人，另一个是税吏。
- start: 1485.913
  end: 1494.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, in Jewish life, you could hardly get two more unlike people, and yet both of them feel comfortable going directly to God to pray.
  zh: 在犹太人的生活中，很难找到两个更不相同的人，但他们都觉得可以直接向神祷告。
- start: 1495.237
  end: 1501.219
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So this idea that people couldn't do that in Judaism is just plainly false.
  zh: 所以认为在犹太教中人们不能这样做的想法显然是错误的。
- start: 1501.219
  end: 1503.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's just looking at New Testament evidence.
  zh: 这仅仅是从新约的证据来看。
- start: 1503.04
  end: 1504.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You could bring in a wealth of Old Testament evidence.
  zh: 你还可以引用大量旧约的证据。
- start: 1504.841
  end: 1507.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You could bring in things like first-century synagogue inscriptions.
  zh: 你可以引用像第一世纪会堂碑文这样的东西。
- start: 1507.522
  end: 1517.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I mean, there are a lot of good examples of the fact that people did pray.
  zh: 我是说，有很多很好的例子证明人们确实在祷告。
- start: 1518.665
  end: 1521.347
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In Matthew chapter 6, Jesus says, When you pray.
  zh: 在马太福音第6章，耶稣说，你们祷告的时候。
- start: 1521.347
  end: 1526.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now notice, he's talking to people and doesn't say, Did you know you were able to pray?
  zh: 现在注意，他在对人说话，并没有说，你们知道你们能祷告吗？
- start: 1526.251
  end: 1528.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He's just telling them what to do when they pray.
  zh: 他只是在告诉他们祷告时该怎么做。
- start: 1528.112
  end: 1530.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In fact, he's going to tell them how to do it.
  zh: 事实上，他要告诉他们如何做。
- start: 1530.414
  end: 1532.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: When you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites.
  zh: 你们祷告的时候，不可像那假冒为善的人。
- start: 1532.515
  end: 1537.058
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Oh, so not only are Jesus' listeners praying, but even the hypocrites are praying.
  zh: 哦，所以不仅耶稣的听众在祷告，就连假冒为善的人也在祷告。
- start: 1537.058
  end: 1544.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The difference isn't who thinks they can pray; the difference is how, and the hypocrites are praying badly.
  zh: 区别不在于谁认为自己可以祷告；区别在于如何祷告，而假冒为善的人祷告得不好。
- start: 1544.097
  end: 1544.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: How?
  zh: 怎么不好？
- start: 1545.157
  end: 1549.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, they love to stand and pray in synagogues and street corners that they may be seen by men.
  zh: 他们喜欢站在会堂里和街道拐角处祷告，故意让人看见。
- start: 1549.719
  end: 1555.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And Jesus warns they've had their reward because they weren't really praying to be heard by God; they were praying to be heard by others.
  zh: 耶稣警告说他们已经得了他们的赏赐，因为他们祷告不是为了让神听见，而是为了让别人听见。
- start: 1557.421
  end: 1561.583
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Then he says, When you're praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do.
  zh: 然后他说，你们祷告，不可像外邦人用许多重复话。
- start: 1561.583
  end: 1572.667
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So not only did ordinary Jews, from the Pharisees to the tax collectors, pray, but also the disciples of John prayed, and the disciples of the Pharisees and the hypocrites—even the Gentiles prayed.
  zh: 所以不仅普通犹太人，从法利赛人到税吏都祷告，约翰的门徒也祷告，法利赛人的门徒和假冒为善的人也祷告——甚至外邦人也祷告。
- start: 1573.228
  end: 1578.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This was just not the radical breakthrough Protestants claim it to be.
  zh: 这根本不是新教徒所说的那种突破性的改变。
- start: 1578.25
  end: 1584.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: People prayed—Jewish and Gentile, hypocrite and humble, Pharisee and tax collector.
  zh: 人们都在祷告——犹太人和外邦人，假冒为善的和谦卑的，法利赛人和税吏。
- start: 1585.613
  end: 1588.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: People prayed in the Old Covenant directly to God.
  zh: 在旧约中人们直接向神祷告。
- start: 1591.896
  end: 1595.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So what does Jesus do?
  zh: 那么耶稣做了什么？
- start: 1595.559
  end: 1599.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Well, he responds by giving the Our Father: Pray then like this.'
  zh: 他回应说要用天主经祷告：你们要这样祷告。
- start: 1599.801
  end: 1618.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'And that''s what he does in Luke 11, verse 1, and in the parallel account in Matthew 6, verse 9. But here''s the issue: if the only way we''re able to pray directly to God is because when Jesus dies on the cross, the temple veil is torn, how does he give them the Our Father now, prior to his death?'
  zh: 这就是他在路加福音11章1节和马太福音6章9节平行经文中所做的。但这里有个问题：如果我们能够直接向神祷告的唯一原因是因为耶稣死在十字架上时帘幔裂开了，那么他怎么能在他死之前就给他们天主经呢？
- start: 1619.01
  end: 1629.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So the idea that the torn veil means we can now pray directly to God is also contradicted by the fact that Jesus is giving them prayer directly to the Father during his lifetime.
  zh: 所以认为帘幔裂开意味着我们现在可以直接向神祷告的想法，也与耶稣在世时就教导他们直接向天父祷告的事实相矛盾。
- start: 1629.913
  end: 1633.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So yeah, those two claims about prayer are totally wrong.
  zh: 所以是的，关于祷告的这两个说法完全是错误的。
- start: 1633.456
  end: 1637.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you want to know why they're wrong, they're confusing prayer and worship.
  zh: 如果你想知道为什么他们错了，是因为他们混淆了祷告和敬拜。
- start: 1637.718
  end: 1651.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I've got another video where I explore that in much greater depth, but for now, it's enough to say there was something you could only do in the temple, and that required the priests, but it wasn't prayer.
  zh: 我有另一个视频更深入地探讨这个问题，但现在只要说明有一件事只能在圣殿里做，而且需要祭司，但那不是祷告。
- start: 1652.408
  end: 1657.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So what are the common false Protestant assumptions?
  zh: 那么新教徒常见的错误假设是什么？
- start: 1658.175
  end: 1660.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: As I see it, there are three major ones.
  zh: 据我所见，有三个主要的错误假设。
- start: 1660.757
  end: 1665.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number one: before Jesus'' death, people didn''t or couldn''t pray directly to God.'
  zh: 第一：在耶稣死之前，人们不能或不可以直接向神祷告。
- start: 1665.641
  end: 1667.802
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: As we've just seen, that is false.
  zh: 正如我们刚才看到的，这是错误的。
- start: 1668.944
  end: 1676.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The second assumption is that we can now pray directly to God only because of Jesus' death on the cross tearing the temple veil.
  zh: 第二个假设是，我们现在能直接向神祷告只是因为耶稣在十字架上的死使圣殿的帘幔裂开了。
- start: 1676.47
  end: 1680.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, we already saw the Our Father was given before that happened, so that's false.
  zh: 好吧，我们已经看到天主经是在那之前就赐下的，所以这也是错误的。
- start: 1681.698
  end: 1687.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The third assumption is that Jesus' death on the cross eliminates prayerful intercession.
  zh: 第三个假设是，耶稣在十字架上的死消除了祷告中的代祷。
- start: 1687.783
  end: 1695.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We get rid of all the middlemen because we can now go directly to God because the temple veil is torn, and we've seen that's false.
  zh: 我们摆脱了所有的中间人，因为现在我们可以直接到神面前，因为圣殿的帘幔裂开了，但我们已经看到这是错误的。
- start: 1695.309
  end: 1699.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Intercession continues in Christianity; it's encouraged and described as good.
  zh: 代祷在基督教中继续存在；它是被鼓励的，而且被描述为好的。
- start: 1699.573
  end: 1702.535
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Okay, so those three things are false.
  zh: 好，所以这三件事都是错误的。
- start: 1702.535
  end: 1712.272
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Those are common misconceptions and faulty assumptions that underlie why Protestants hear the temple veil is torn and jump to wrong conclusions.
  zh: 这些是常见的误解和错误假设，是新教徒听到圣殿帘幔裂开就得出错误结论的原因。
- start: 1712.693
  end: 1713.534
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: How should we interpret it?
  zh: 我们应该如何解释它？
- start: 1713.534
  end: 1716.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Because clearly, the tearing of the temple veil is important.
  zh: 因为显然，圣殿帘幔裂开是重要的。
- start: 1716.697
  end: 1720.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The fact that it doesn't mean what Protestants think it means doesn't mean it doesn't mean anything.
  zh: 它不是新教徒认为的那个意思，但这并不意味着它没有意义。
- start: 1720.78
  end: 1722.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That was a bad sentence, but you get what I'm saying.
  zh: 这句话说得不好，但你明白我的意思。
- start: 1723.663
  end: 1728.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It clearly is an important moment in Christianity.
  zh: 这显然是基督教中的一个重要时刻。
- start: 1728.727
  end: 1730.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So what is going on?
  zh: 那么到底是怎么回事？
- start: 1730.569
  end: 1736.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, to understand it, we have to go to the fact that there's something that had to happen in the temple.
  zh: 要理解这一点，我们必须明白有些事情必须在圣殿里进行。
- start: 1737.242
  end: 1741.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We get this alluded to in John chapter 4 when Jesus is speaking to the Samaritan woman.
  zh: 在约翰福音第4章耶稣与撒玛利亚妇人对话时提到了这一点。
- start: 1741.824
  end: 1744.326
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: She says to him, Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.
  zh: 她对他说：「先生，我看出你是先知。」
- start: 1744.666
  end: 1751.609
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Our fathers worshiped on this mountain (that's Mount Gerizim), and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
  zh: 「我们的祖宗在这山上（就是基利心山）敬拜，你们倒说，应当敬拜的地方是在耶路撒冷。」
- start: 1751.87
  end: 1753.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, where do you worship in Jerusalem?
  zh: 那么，在耶路撒冷哪里敬拜呢？
- start: 1753.391
  end: 1754.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The temple.
  zh: 圣殿。
- start: 1754.811
  end: 1763.075
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So there is something called worship that is done on Mount Gerizim if you're a Samaritan, or in the temple in Jerusalem if you're a Jew.
  zh: 所以有一种叫做敬拜的事，如果你是撒玛利亚人就在基利心山上进行，如果你是犹太人就在耶路撒冷的圣殿里进行。
- start: 1764.777
  end: 1766.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: What's going on there?
  zh: 那里发生了什么？
- start: 1766.983
  end: 1771.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's clearly something different than prayer, which could happen anywhere, and people were doing it everywhere.
  zh: 这显然与祷告不同，祷告可以在任何地方进行，人们到处都在祷告。
- start: 1771.026
  end: 1773.607
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Ordinary people were doing it, and it didn't take priests.
  zh: 普通人都在做，而且不需要祭司。
- start: 1774.708
  end: 1777.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So what is worship as distinct from prayer?
  zh: 那么敬拜与祷告有什么区别？
- start: 1778.091
  end: 1786.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Everett Ferguson, in volume 3 of his book The Early Church at Work in Worship, he's a Protestant scholar, but he nails this right on the head.
  zh: 埃弗雷特·弗格森在他的《早期教会的敬拜工作》第三卷中，虽然他是新教学者，但他对这一点说得很准确。
- start: 1787.56
  end: 1798.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He says, Since sacrifice was the universal language of worship in the ancient world, it was natural that the significance of Jesus' death should be interpreted in those terms.
  zh: 他说，既然献祭是古代世界普遍的敬拜语言，那么用这些术语来解释耶稣之死的意义就很自然了。
- start: 1798.284
  end: 1799.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So there are two things he's saying there.
  zh: 所以他在这里说了两件事。
- start: 1799.385
  end: 1806.567
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number one: if you want to understand what worship meant in the ancient world, universally it was sacrifice.'
  zh: 第一：如果你想理解在古代世界敬拜的含义，普遍来说就是献祭。
- start: 1807.268
  end: 1813.771
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'And number two: this is the key to making sense of Jesus'' death on the cross from an early Christian perspective.'
  zh: 第二：这是从早期基督徒的角度理解耶稣在十字架上的死的关键。
- start: 1813.771
  end: 1828.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is how Christians understood the significance of Good Friday—through the backdrop of a world that they already had, Jewish and Gentile alike, about the necessity of sacrifice and worship in making an offering to God.
  zh: 这就是基督徒如何理解受难日的意义——通过他们已有的世界背景，无论是犹太人还是外邦人，都明白在向神献祭时需要献祭和敬拜。
- start: 1829.609
  end: 1831.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Jesus is fulfilling this.
  zh: 耶稣正在成全这一切。
- start: 1833.15
  end: 1840.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Ferguson goes on to say that the Epistle to the Hebrews most fully developed the sacrificial imagery in reference to Jesus' death.
  zh: 弗格森接着说，希伯来书最充分地发展了关于耶稣之死的献祭意象。
- start: 1840.132
  end: 1848.484
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you want to see this in action, read Hebrews, but read it with an early Christian or Jewish or pagan perspective mindset.
  zh: 如果你想看到这一点，就读希伯来书，但要以早期基督徒、犹太人或异教徒的思维方式来读。
- start: 1848.484
  end: 1852.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You know, look at it the way someone in the first century, coming from one of those backgrounds, would read it.
  zh: 你知道，要用第一世纪那些背景的人的方式来看待它。
- start: 1852.666
  end: 1859.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Don't read it with modern Protestant misconceptions that are built on a misunderstanding of what the first century was like.
  zh: 不要带着对第一世纪的误解而产生的现代新教误解来读它。
- start: 1860.508
  end: 1867.23
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So Hebrews, we're going to look at it shortly here, actually explains how to make sense of this passage.
  zh: 所以希伯来书，我们马上就要看，实际上解释了如何理解这段经文。
- start: 1867.611
  end: 1884.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Okay, there's one more twist to this because Jesus, in response to the Samaritan woman, accepts this framework but tells her that the hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
  zh: 好的，这里还有一个转折，因为耶稣回应撒玛利亚妇人时，接受了这个框架，但告诉她时候将到，如今就是了，那真正敬拜父的要用心灵和诚实敬拜他，因为父要这样的人敬拜他。
- start: 1884.894
  end: 1889.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So he's not coming to change prayer; he's coming to change worship.
  zh: 所以他来不是要改变祷告；他来是要改变敬拜。
- start: 1890.578
  end: 1892.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, he's not coming to abolish it.
  zh: 现在，他来不是要废除它。
- start: 1892.019
  end: 1896.342
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He's not saying you don't need worship anymore; you don't need sacrifice anymore.
  zh: 他不是说你不再需要敬拜了；你不再需要献祭了。
- start: 1896.722
  end: 1903.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But he's coming to transform it, and he does transform it on the cross in this really unique and radical sort of way.
  zh: 但他来是要改变它，他在十字架上以一种真正独特和根本的方式改变了它。
- start: 1904.321
  end: 1906.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so that's going to be the key.
  zh: 这就是关键所在。
- start: 1906.723
  end: 1914.749
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you want to understand the torn temple veil, you need to know not only what worship is but what made the temple special.
  zh: 如果你想理解圣殿帘幔裂开的含义，你不仅需要知道什么是敬拜，还要知道是什么使圣殿特别。
- start: 1914.749
  end: 1919.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I've already alluded to one of the two things, but it's two things that are closely connected.
  zh: 我已经提到了两件事中的一件，但这两件事是紧密相连的。
- start: 1919.753
  end: 1922.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number one: the temple is the place of divine presence.'
  zh: 第一：圣殿是神同在的地方。
- start: 1922.876
  end: 1924.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The temple is where God is.
  zh: 圣殿是神所在之处。
- start: 1925.198
  end: 1930.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's not to the exclusion of other places, but it means that God, in a special way, resides in the temple.
  zh: 这并不排除其他地方，但这意味着神以特殊的方式住在圣殿中。
- start: 1931.102
  end: 1935.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'And number two: the temple is a place of worship and sacrifice.'
  zh: 第二：圣殿是敬拜和献祭的地方。
- start: 1935.336
  end: 1943.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And that really, in a way, is redundant in this ancient kind of vision of worship—that sacrifice is the language of worship.
  zh: 从某种意义上说，在这种古代的敬拜观念中，这其实是重复的——因为献祭就是敬拜的语言。
- start: 1943.4
  end: 1944.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And where are you going to offer sacrifice?
  zh: 那么你要在哪里献祭呢？
- start: 1944.841
  end: 1946.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Where are you going to worship?
  zh: 你要在哪里敬拜呢？
- start: 1946.142
  end: 1947.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You're going to go where God is.
  zh: 你要去神所在的地方。
- start: 1948.163
  end: 1949.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And that's the temple.
  zh: 那就是圣殿。
- start: 1949.383
  end: 1957.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so that's why you went to Mount Gerizim, that's why you went to the temple in Jerusalem, and that's why if you were a pagan, you went to one of the shrines where you thought the gods might be.
  zh: 这就是为什么你要去基利心山，为什么你要去耶路撒冷的圣殿，这也是为什么如果你是异教徒，你会去你认为众神可能在的神龛。
- start: 1957.547
  end: 1969.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: These were places of divine indwelling or were believed to be, and that's where you would go to have these encounters of communion, either with the true God or with your false gods.
  zh: 这些是神居住的地方，或者被认为是神居住的地方，这就是你要去与真神或假神相遇相交的地方。
- start: 1970.095
  end: 1972.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's what a temple was in the ancient world.
  zh: 这就是古代世界中圣殿的含义。
- start: 1973.176
  end: 1983.039
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'So when we''re talking about temples, that''s what you need to understand: those two features—this is a place of divine presence and a place of divine worship and sacrifice.'
  zh: 所以当我们谈论圣殿时，你需要理解这两个特征——这是神同在的地方，也是神圣敬拜和献祭的地方。
- start: 1984.84
  end: 1987.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Jesus doesn't abolish this, but he does transform it.
  zh: 耶稣没有废除这个，但他确实改变了它。
- start: 1988.361
  end: 1991.222
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So where is the Christian temple?
  zh: 那么基督教的圣殿在哪里？
- start: 1991.897
  end: 2004.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If the temple is closely connected to this idea of worship, and if the temple is closely connected, of course, to making sense of the temple veil, well, where do we see the temple in Christianity?
  zh: 如果圣殿与敬拜的概念密切相关，而且圣殿当然也与理解圣殿帘幔密切相关，那么，我们在基督教中在哪里看到圣殿？
- start: 2005.067
  end: 2005.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There are three places.
  zh: 有三个地方。
- start: 2005.988
  end: 2008.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number one: in Jesus'' physical body.'
  zh: 第一：在耶稣的肉身中。
- start: 2008.37
  end: 2011.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: As he's walking around, he is the temple of God.
  zh: 当他行走在世上时，他就是神的殿。
- start: 2011.792
  end: 2012.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Makes sense, right?
  zh: 这说得通，对吧？
- start: 2012.693
  end: 2015.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is a place of divine presence par excellence.
  zh: 这是神同在的最完美的地方。
- start: 2016.396
  end: 2019.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number two: in his mystical body, the body of Christ, the Church.'
  zh: 第二：在他的奥秘身体中，就是基督的身体，教会。
- start: 2020.447
  end: 2025.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'And number three: in the individual believers who have been incorporated into his body.'
  zh: 第三：在已经被纳入他身体的个别信徒中。
- start: 2026.532
  end: 2029.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So let's see how the New Testament points to all three of those answers.
  zh: 让我们看看新约如何指向这三个答案。
- start: 2029.574
  end: 2037.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Number one: when Jesus, in John 2, says, Destroy this temple, and in three days I''ll rebuild it, John tells us explicitly he spoke of the temple of his body.'
  zh: 第一：当耶稣在约翰福音第2章说：「你们拆毁这殿，我三日内要再建立起来」，约翰明确告诉我们他是指着他的身体的殿说的。
- start: 2038.342
  end: 2047.861
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is as clear as it's going to get—that the radical transformation is no longer the temple in Jerusalem as the focus of worship.
  zh: 这再清楚不过了——这个根本性的转变就是耶路撒冷的圣殿不再是敬拜的焦点。
- start: 2047.861
  end: 2051.882
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, the temple that is the body of Jesus is the focus of worship.
  zh: 现在，作为耶稣身体的圣殿是敬拜的焦点。
- start: 2052.742
  end: 2056.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That is the redirection that has gone on here.
  zh: 这就是发生在这里的方向转变。
- start: 2056.783
  end: 2058.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And of course, this makes sense.
  zh: 当然，这是说得通的。
- start: 2058.544
  end: 2071.647
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Colossians 2 describes how in Jesus, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, that God dwells in Christ in a way beyond how he ever dwelt in the Holy of Holies in the Ark of the Covenant.
  zh: 歌罗西书第2章描述了神本性一切的丰盛都有形有体地居住在耶稣里面，神在基督里的居住方式超越了他曾在约柜至圣所中的居住。
- start: 2071.647
  end: 2076.868
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is something more radical than that dwelling place.
  zh: 这比那个居所更加根本。
- start: 2077.366
  end: 2080.487
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The body of Jesus is the perfect temple.
  zh: 耶稣的身体是完美的圣殿。
- start: 2080.487
  end: 2086.83
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you understand the temple as the place of divine presence and the place where sacrifice is made, well, where do we see the sacrifice?
  zh: 如果你理解圣殿是神同在的地方和献祭的地方，那么，我们在哪里看到献祭？
- start: 2086.83
  end: 2089.371
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Of course, we see that on the cross.
  zh: 当然，我们在十字架上看到了。
- start: 2090.372
  end: 2095.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Second, when we talk about the Church, St. Paul refers to it as the household of God.
  zh: 第二，当我们谈论教会时，圣保罗称它为神的家。
- start: 2095.134
  end: 2103.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's built on the foundation of the apostles, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone, growing together into a holy temple in the Lord.
  zh: 它建造在使徒的根基上，有基督耶稣自己为房角石，一同增长成为主里的圣殿。
- start: 2104.378
  end: 2112.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So this is where, if you want to encounter Jesus Christ on earth now, you go to his body; you go to the Church.
  zh: 所以，如果你现在想在地上遇见耶稣基督，你要去他的身体；你要去教会。
- start: 2112.296
  end: 2114.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That is the biblical depiction.
  zh: 这是圣经的描述。
- start: 2114.137
  end: 2120.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: To call the Church the body of Christ is to call the Church a continuation of the Incarnation.
  zh: 称教会为基督的身体就是称教会为道成肉身的延续。
- start: 2121.359
  end: 2129.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And if Jesus' historic physical body is a temple, that means the Church is also a holy temple in the Lord.
  zh: 如果耶稣历史上的肉身是圣殿，这就意味着教会也是主里的圣殿。
- start: 2129.763
  end: 2135.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is where divine presence is made manifest in the world, and this is where divine sacrifice happens.
  zh: 这是神同在在世上显明的地方，也是神圣献祭发生的地方。
- start: 2137.257
  end: 2145.498
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Third, each of our own bodies is to be respected because, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6, Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 第三，我们每个人的身体都应当受到尊重，因为正如圣保罗在哥林多前书第6章所说，你们的身体是圣灵的殿。
- start: 2146.459
  end: 2157.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you have been baptized and incorporated into Christ, and you have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit living within you, you're also a place of divine dwelling, which is what the temple is.
  zh: 如果你受了洗并与基督联合，有圣父、圣子、圣灵住在你里面，你也是神居住的地方，这就是圣殿的含义。
- start: 2157.521
  end: 2162.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And that means as well that your body, as a temple, is a place where you can offer sacrifice.
  zh: 这也意味着你的身体，作为圣殿，是你可以献祭的地方。
- start: 2163.342
  end: 2171.405
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, occasionally you'll find Protestants who hear this idea of sacrificing in spirit and truth, and they'll say, Ah, it's spiritual; it's not bodily.
  zh: 现在，你偶尔会发现新教徒听到用心灵和诚实献祭的观念时会说，啊，这是属灵的；不是身体的。
- start: 2171.926
  end: 2191.895
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That badly misunderstands the biblical treatment of body and spirit, particularly in St. Paul, who says in Romans 12, I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
  zh: 这严重误解了圣经对身体和灵的论述，特别是圣保罗在罗马书12章说：「所以弟兄们，我以神的慈悲劝你们，将身体献上，当作活祭，是圣洁的，是神所喜悦的，你们如此事奉乃是理所当然的。」
- start: 2191.995
  end: 2195.419
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That spiritual worship is bodily worship.
  zh: 那属灵的敬拜就是身体的敬拜。
- start: 2196.56
  end: 2199.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's what it looks like as a Christian.
  zh: 这就是基督徒敬拜的样式。
- start: 2199.322
  end: 2206.726
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's always bodily worship because it's connected with your body, which is a temple, and it's connected to the body of Christ, which is a temple.
  zh: 它总是身体的敬拜，因为它与你的身体相连，而你的身体是圣殿，它也与基督的身体相连，而基督的身体是圣殿。
- start: 2208.267
  end: 2216.012
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So it's inescapably bodily worship in the same way that if you were a Jew in the Old Covenant, it would be inescapably temple worship.
  zh: 所以这必然是身体的敬拜，就像如果你是旧约中的犹太人，就必然是圣殿的敬拜一样。
- start: 2216.973
  end: 2224.679
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Okay, so that's been a little bit of a roundabout way of getting there, but how does this make sense then of the torn veil?
  zh: 好，这是一个有点迂回的解释方式，但这如何解释帘幔裂开的含义呢？
- start: 2224.879
  end: 2228.362
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, as I said, we have to go to Hebrews for that explanation.
  zh: 好吧，正如我所说，我们必须去看希伯来书来解释这一点。
- start: 2228.583
  end: 2236.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In Hebrews 8, it's looking at the Old Testament priesthood and describes how these things serve as a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary.
  zh: 在希伯来书第8章，它看旧约的祭司职分，描述这些事如何作为天上圣所的副本和影子。
- start: 2236.41
  end: 2247.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The first covenant, the Old Covenant, the Mosaic priesthood—all of that is prefiguring a heavenly reality, and it serves as a copy and shadow.
  zh: 第一个约，旧约，摩西的祭司职分——这一切都是预表天上的实体，作为副本和影子。
- start: 2248.553
  end: 2256.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And then in verse 6, so the Old Covenant prefigures the New Covenant; the old priesthood prefigures the new priesthood; the old mediation prefigures the new mediation.
  zh: 然后在第6节，所以旧约预表新约；旧的祭司职分预表新的祭司职分；旧的中保预表新的中保。
- start: 2256.1
  end: 2258.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: All of that is right there in Hebrews.
  zh: 这一切都在希伯来书中。
- start: 2274.244
  end: 2280.066
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In chapter 9, the author goes on to say that even the first covenant had regulations for worship in an earthly sanctuary.
  zh: 在第9章，作者接着说，就是前约也有敬拜的条例和属世的圣所。
- start: 2280.586
  end: 2286.828
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So even the Old Covenant, which is just a prefigurement of the New Covenant, has regulations for worship in an earthly sanctuary.
  zh: 所以即使是旧约，作为新约的预表，也有属世圣所中敬拜的条例。
- start: 2286.828
  end: 2298.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, that word even suggests that that's also going to be true of the New Covenant—that the thing that's being fulfilled isn't superior to the thing that fulfills it.
  zh: 现在，这个'就是'一词暗示这在新约中也是如此——被应验的事物并不优于应验它的事物。
- start: 2298.811
  end: 2302.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The foreshadowing isn't better than the thing being foreshadowed.
  zh: 预表不会比被预表的事物更好。
- start: 2302.853
  end: 2319.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It doesn't make sense to say Old Covenant worship had regulations for worship, heavenly worship has regulations for worship, but there should be no regulations for worship in Christianity, which is on this journey from the Old Covenant to the heavenly encounter of worship.
  zh: 说旧约敬拜有敬拜的条例，天上的敬拜有敬拜的条例，但基督教的敬拜却不应该有条例，这说不通，因为基督教正是从旧约到天上敬拜相遇的历程。
- start: 2319.141
  end: 2320.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It doesn't make sense, right?
  zh: 这说不通，对吧？
- start: 2320.482
  end: 2326.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You can't say the past was set up to prefigure the future, and the present should look totally unlike the past and the future.
  zh: 你不能说过去是为了预表将来，而现在却应该与过去和将来完全不同。
- start: 2327.047
  end: 2331.97
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If your worship doesn't look like heavenly worship, that's a problem as a Christian.
  zh: 如果你的敬拜看起来不像天上的敬拜，作为基督徒这是个问题。
- start: 2332.543
  end: 2342.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And we know Old Covenant worship looked like heavenly worship because Hebrews 8 just told us that heavenly worship is better, but it's prefiguring that.
  zh: 我们知道旧约的敬拜看起来像天上的敬拜，因为希伯来书第8章刚告诉我们天上的敬拜更好，但它是在预表那个。
- start: 2343.009
  end: 2348.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So when you look at Jewish temple liturgies and you look at the Mass, you'll see the comparisons.
  zh: 所以当你看犹太圣殿礼仪和弥撒时，你会看到这些对应关系。
- start: 2348.792
  end: 2352.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is one of the regular knocks against Catholicism.
  zh: 这是对公教会常见的批评之一。
- start: 2352.534
  end: 2360.898
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But if Hebrews 8 and 9 are right, those regulations for worship are part of this prefigurement of new and better things.
  zh: 但如果希伯来书第8和第9章是对的，那些敬拜的条例是预表新而更美之事的一部分。
- start: 2361.38
  end: 2372.448
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So I point this out partly to contrast this vision you'll hear from people who think that somehow the temple veil gets rid of regulations for worship, gets rid of ritual.
  zh: 所以我指出这一点，部分是为了与那些认为圣殿帘幔裂开就废除了敬拜条例、废除了礼仪的人的观点形成对比。
- start: 2373.069
  end: 2375.31
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But God had sent us a message.
  zh: 但神已经给我们传达了一个信息。
- start: 2375.451
  end: 2385.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He said, My Son has made it easy so that you could come into my presence, and coming into my presence, know that you're no longer on the outside.
  zh: 他说，我的儿子已经使你们容易进入我的同在，当你们进入我的同在时，要知道你们不再是局外人。
- start: 2385.658
  end: 2390.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: There were no rituals needed; Jesus made a new way to God.
  zh: 不再需要仪式了；耶稣开辟了通往神的新道路。
- start: 2391.509
  end: 2400.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So yeah, you'll notice that is just not what Hebrews 9 says when it says even the first covenant had regulations for worship.
  zh: 所以是的，你会注意到这不是希伯来书第9章说'就是前约也有敬拜的条例'的意思。
- start: 2400.792
  end: 2411.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's presupposing the New Covenant does as well, and then it gives an example of what those Old Covenant regulations for worship looked like, and it involves the old temple.
  zh: 它预设新约也有条例，然后举例说明旧约敬拜条例是什么样的，这涉及到旧约的圣殿。
- start: 2411.055
  end: 2414.396
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, we've already seen Christianity has a temple.
  zh: 现在，我们已经看到基督教有圣殿。
- start: 2414.656
  end: 2421.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'It has a threefold sense of temple: it''s the body of Christ, your body, the Church, and Jesus'' historic body.'
  zh: 它有三重意义的圣殿：基督的身体，你的身体，教会，和耶稣历史上的身体。
- start: 2422.481
  end: 2434.265
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And in the Old Covenant, which prefigures that, there was on the outside an outer tent in which there was a lampstand and a table and the bread of the presence, called the Holy Place.
  zh: 在预表这些的旧约中，外面有一个外帐幕，其中有灯台、桌子和陈设饼，这叫做圣所。
- start: 2435.085
  end: 2440.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, the Holy Place is to be contrasted from the Holy of Holies, which is the holiest place.
  zh: 现在，圣所要与至圣所区分开来，至圣所是最圣洁的地方。
- start: 2440.707
  end: 2443.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But you'll notice there's already that bread of the presence.
  zh: 但你会注意到已经有了陈设饼。
- start: 2443.108
  end: 2448.49
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, if this is somehow prefiguring the body of Christ, what does that sound like to you?
  zh: 好吧，如果这是在某种程度上预表基督的身体，这让你想到什么？
- start: 2448.49
  end: 2451.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Because that sounds to me quite Eucharistic.
  zh: 因为这对我来说听起来很像圣餐。
- start: 2451.724
  end: 2462.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In fact, when you go deeper, beyond the second set of curtains, you go into the Holy of Holies and you find the golden altar of incense and the Ark of the Covenant, covered on all sides with gold.
  zh: 事实上，当你更深入，越过第二层幔子，你进入至圣所，你会发现金香坛和四面包金的约柜。
- start: 2462.467
  end: 2476.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It contains a golden urn with the manna, the bread from heaven, which Jesus describes himself as the true bread from heaven in John 6. So this is the bread of angels, and it's prefiguring something in the New Covenant.
  zh: 里面有盛吗哪的金罐，这吗哪是从天上来的粮，耶稣在约翰福音第6章称自己为从天上来的真粮。所以这是天使的粮，它预表新约中的某些事物。
- start: 2476.671
  end: 2481.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Remember how everything in the first covenant is prefiguring things in the New Covenant.
  zh: 记住第一个约中的一切是如何预表新约中的事物的。
- start: 2482.054
  end: 2485.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Once again, this looks very Eucharistic.
  zh: 再一次，这看起来很像圣餐。
- start: 2486.235
  end: 2496.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Then, jumping a verse and a half ahead, these preparations having thus been made, the priests go continually into the outer tent performing their ritual duties.
  zh: 然后，跳过一节半，这些物件都预备如此，祭司就常进头一层帐幕，行拜神的礼。
- start: 2496.337
  end: 2504.419
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But in the second one, the high priest goes in but once a year and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people.
  zh: 但在第二层帐幕，惟有大祭司一年一次独自进去，没有不带着血，为自己和百姓的过错献上。
- start: 2504.639
  end: 2511.441
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now notice here what it is that the priest, and the high priest specifically, and he alone, is able to do.
  zh: 现在注意这里大祭司，特别是他，而且只有他，能够做什么。
- start: 2511.843
  end: 2515.504
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Not pray to God, but to make atoning sacrifice.
  zh: 不是向神祷告，而是献赎罪祭。
- start: 2516.125
  end: 2526.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's this act of worship—not prayer, but worship, like sacrificial offering to God to resolve the sins of the people.
  zh: 这是敬拜的行为——不是祷告，而是敬拜，就像向神献祭来解决百姓的罪。
- start: 2526.509
  end: 2532.411
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's a different kind of thing than the people who are in the temple at the same time praying to God for mercy.
  zh: 这与同时在圣殿中向神祈求怜悯的人所做的是不同的事。
- start: 2532.752
  end: 2537.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: They're offering prayer, but the priest is offering worship and sacrifice.
  zh: 他们是在献上祷告，但祭司是在献上敬拜和祭物。
- start: 2538.674
  end: 2544.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Let's jump ahead then from chapter 9 to chapter 10 because this is all going to be fulfilled.
  zh: 让我们从第9章跳到第10章，因为这一切都要应验。
- start: 2544.764
  end: 2551.869
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Jesus' death on the cross does get rid of that old mediation of the priest's sacrificial role.
  zh: 耶稣在十字架上的死确实废除了祭司献祭角色的旧中保职分。
- start: 2551.869
  end: 2554.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We don't need to offer animal sacrifice anymore.
  zh: 我们不再需要献动物为祭了。
- start: 2554.651
  end: 2555.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 2555.091
  end: 2558.533
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Because we have a new and better victim and a new and better priest.
  zh: 因为我们有了新而更好的祭物和新而更好的祭司。
- start: 2558.994
  end: 2565.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So Hebrews 10, verse 19 says, Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary.
  zh: 所以希伯来书10章19节说：「弟兄们，我们既因耶稣的血得以坦然进入至圣所。」
- start: 2565.318
  end: 2574.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Notice again the temple language, by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh.
  zh: 再次注意这圣殿的用语，藉着耶稣的血，藉着他给我们开了一条又新又活的路，从幔子经过，这幔子就是他的身体。
- start: 2574.683
  end: 2575.944
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Pause there.
  zh: 在这里停一下。
- start: 2577.906
  end: 2584.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you want to understand the tearing of the temple veil, Hebrews 10 says you need to realize that it's the torn flesh of Christ.
  zh: 如果你想理解圣殿帘幔裂开的含义，希伯来书第10章说你需要认识到这就是基督裂开的身体。
- start: 2585.352
  end: 2596.382
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The tearing of the temple veil in the temple in Jerusalem is just a foreshadowing or a prefigurement or an image of the tearing of the actual veil in the true temple.
  zh: 耶路撒冷圣殿中帘幔的裂开只是真圣殿中真实帘幔裂开的预表或预像或象征。
- start: 2596.382
  end: 2602.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Because remember, in John 2, Jesus goes into the temple and speaks of the true temple of himself—his own body.
  zh: 因为记住，在约翰福音第2章，耶稣进入圣殿，说到真正的圣殿就是他自己——他的身体。
- start: 2602.664
  end: 2613.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so the temple in Jerusalem, sure, the veil is torn, but that's just a foreshadowing of the tearing of the true temple veil, which is the flesh of Christ.
  zh: 所以耶路撒冷的圣殿，是的，帘幔裂开了，但那只是真正的圣殿帘幔裂开的预表，而这真正的帘幔就是基督的身体。
- start: 2613.626
  end: 2617.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That is where we find this ripping open the side of Christ.
  zh: 这就是我们看到基督肋旁被刺破的含义。
- start: 2618.727
  end: 2622.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That is what it means to say he’s opened up this living way for us through his flesh.
  zh: 这就是说他藉着他的身体为我们开了一条活路的含义。
- start: 2623.581
  end: 2625.882
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That’s what the curtain is—his flesh.
  zh: 这就是帘幔的含义——他的身体。
- start: 2627.582
  end: 2640.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And it goes on to say in the next half of the sentence, And since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart and full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
  zh: 接下来的半句话说：「又有一位大祭司治理神的家，我们就当存着诚心和充足的信心来到神面前，我们的心既已蒙洁净，无亏的良心，身体用清水洗净了。」
- start: 2641.748
  end: 2646.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So it’s true we can now access the presence of God in a new way.
  zh: 所以确实我们现在可以以新的方式接近神的同在。
- start: 2646.889
  end: 2651.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We could pray before, but we now experience his real presence in a deeper way.
  zh: 我们以前就能祷告，但现在我们以更深的方式经历他的真实同在。
- start: 2652.674
  end: 2657.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So this is going to make, I think, a lot of sense of what happens with the tearing of the temple veil.
  zh: 所以我认为这能让圣殿帘幔裂开的事件变得更有意义。
- start: 2657.177
  end: 2672.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It needs to be read through this temple lens, which is incredibly Eucharistic because it’s all centered around the body of Christ and how we can now receive the body of Christ and enter into this real relationship with God at a level we couldn’t before.
  zh: 它需要通过这个圣殿的视角来理解，这是非常圣餐性的，因为这一切都围绕着基督的身体，以及我们现在如何能领受基督的身体，进入一个我们以前无法达到的与神真实关系的层面。
- start: 2673.289
  end: 2675.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But I don’t want to miss one other dimension as well.
  zh: 但我也不想错过另一个层面。
- start: 2675.37
  end: 2687.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'I’m going to mention this in passing: that if you read this, the temple as representative of Christ, then there’s a sort of sense in which we can see a divine tearing of garments.'
  zh: 我要顺便提一下：如果你这样读，圣殿代表基督，那么我们可以从某种意义上看到一种神圣的撕裂衣服。
- start: 2687.817
  end: 2692.618
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So when Jacob thinks that his son Joseph is dead, what does he do?
  zh: 所以当雅各以为他的儿子约瑟死了，他做了什么？
- start: 2692.618
  end: 2699.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He wrings his garments (Genesis 37:34). That’s an old Jewish expression of sorrow—you tear the garments.
  zh: 他撕裂衣服（创世记37:34）。这是一个古老的犹太人表达悲伤的方式——撕裂衣服。
- start: 2700.419
  end: 2708.901
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so the garments of the temple, so to speak, are torn because the garments of Christ, his flesh, are torn.
  zh: 所以可以说，圣殿的帘幔裂开是因为基督的衣服，就是他的身体，被撕裂了。
- start: 2710.197
  end: 2713.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That is, I think, one of the dimensions going on here.
  zh: 我认为，这是这里发生的其中一个层面。
- start: 2714.058
  end: 2721.881
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But the more directly evidenced one, the one that’s more explicit in Hebrews 10, is that this is about the tearing of the side of Christ.
  zh: 但更直接的证据，在希伯来书第10章更明确的说明，是关于基督肋旁的刺破。
- start: 2722.661
  end: 2728.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In John 19, verse 34, one of the soldiers pierces Jesus' side with a spear, and at once there comes out blood and water.
  zh: 在约翰福音19章34节，一个兵拿枪扎耶稣的肋旁，随即有血和水流出来。
- start: 2728.823
  end: 2733.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So the new access we have to God is through the open side of Christ.
  zh: 所以我们接近神的新途径是通过基督被刺开的肋旁。
- start: 2733.625
  end: 2735.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The blood and water—what does that represent?
  zh: 血和水——这代表什么？
- start: 2735.486
  end: 2740.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, from the earliest days of Christianity, this was understood to represent baptism and the Eucharist.
  zh: 从基督教最早期开始，这就被理解为代表洗礼和圣餐。
- start: 2740.683
  end: 2756.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: No one was denying that, yeah, blood and water literally came out, but they saw in that a symbol of the fact that it is through the healing waters and the healing blood of Christ that we’re able to enter into communion with God in this deep and abiding sort of way.
  zh: 没有人否认确实有血和水流出来，但他们在其中看到一个象征，就是通过基督医治的水和医治的血，我们能够以这种深入和持久的方式与神相交。
- start: 2757.749
  end: 2763.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In 1 Corinthians 10, St. Paul points to this as Christian sacrifice.
  zh: 在哥林多前书第10章，圣保罗指出这是基督徒的献祭。
- start: 2764.511
  end: 2774.49
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'He says, and those of you who follow this channel know I love this passage, so I’m going to go to it one more time: he says, How do we as Christians participate in the body and blood of Christ?'
  zh: 他说，关注这个频道的人都知道我喜欢这段经文，所以我要再次引用：他说，我们作为基督徒如何分享基督的身体和血？
- start: 2774.49
  end: 2776.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: How do we enter into this in this deep way?
  zh: 我们如何以这种深入的方式进入其中？
- start: 2776.992
  end: 2778.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, he uses the language of sacrifice.
  zh: 他用献祭的语言来说明。
- start: 2778.092
  end: 2798.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He says first, Because there is one bread—or literally, like one loaf—we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
  zh: 他首先说，因为只有一个饼——或者说一个饼块——我们虽多，仍是一个身体，因为我们都分享这一个饼。
- start: 2798.643
  end: 2804.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Somehow, receiving the one loaf, the Eucharist transforms us into the body of Christ.
  zh: 不知怎的，领受这一个饼，圣餐使我们转变成为基督的身体。
- start: 2804.885
  end: 2812.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is unlike the temple; going to the temple didn't make you the temple, but going to the body of Christ makes you the body of Christ.
  zh: 这与圣殿不同；去圣殿不会使你成为圣殿，但去到基督的身体前使你成为基督的身体。
- start: 2813.209
  end: 2817.31
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There is a way in which the body of Christ, the Eucharist, makes the body of Christ, the Church.
  zh: 基督的身体，圣餐，以某种方式造就基督的身体，教会。
- start: 2818.33
  end: 2825.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That’s mysterious, and that is a much deeper conversation I’m going to just allude to and not explain adequately for another time.
  zh: 这是奥秘的，这是一个更深的话题，我现在只是提一下，留待将来再充分解释。
- start: 2826.874
  end: 2832.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But how does that make sense of how we can receive and participate in the body and blood of Christ?
  zh: 但这如何解释我们能够领受并分享基督的身体和血呢？
- start: 2832.877
  end: 2836.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, there are going to be, as I said, two sacrificial examples.
  zh: 好，正如我所说，这里有两个献祭的例子。
- start: 2836.539
  end: 2843.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'The first one, 1 Corinthians 10, verse 18, is the practice of Israel: Are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?'
  zh: 第一个，哥林多前书10章18节，是以色列人的做法：那吃祭物的岂不是与祭坛有分吗？
- start: 2844.222
  end: 2849.845
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you understand what happened in the temple, when you would eat the temple sacrifice, you couldn't go and offer it in the Holy of Holies.
  zh: 如果你明白圣殿中发生的事，当你吃祭物时，你不能进入至圣所献祭。
- start: 2849.845
  end: 2850.726
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: How did you participate?
  zh: 你如何参与其中？
- start: 2850.726
  end: 2851.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You ate it.
  zh: 你吃了它。
- start: 2852.486
  end: 2856.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, likewise, you can't die on the cross, so how do you join in Christ's sacrifices?
  zh: 同样，你不能死在十字架上，那么你如何参与基督的献祭？
- start: 2856.334
  end: 2858.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You receive him in the Eucharist.
  zh: 你在圣餐中领受他。
- start: 2859.076
  end: 2861.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That’s what he’s saying here.
  zh: 这就是他在这里说的。
- start: 2861.897
  end: 2866.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And if that wasn't clear enough, in verse 20, he says the same thing about pagans.
  zh: 如果这还不够清楚，在第20节，他对异教徒说了同样的话。
- start: 2866.319
  end: 2870.182
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He says, implied with pagan sacrifice, They offer to demons and not to God.
  zh: 他说，关于异教徒的献祭，他们是祭祀鬼魔，不是祭祀神。
- start: 2870.182
  end: 2871.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I do not want you to be partners with demons.
  zh: 我不愿意你们与鬼魔相交。
- start: 2871.782
  end: 2880.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So when they would offer demonic sacrifices to demons, they would become partnered with them by making these unholy sacrifices.
  zh: 所以当他们向鬼魔献祭时，他们通过这些不圣洁的献祭与鬼魔建立了联系。
- start: 2882.239
  end: 2888.523
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And so he says, You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
  zh: 所以他说，你们不能喝主的杯又喝鬼魔的杯，不能吃主的筵席又吃鬼魔的筵席。
- start: 2888.523
  end: 2900.33
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There’s a clear parallelism being drawn between the sacrificial cup of the Lord and the sacrificial cup of demons, the sacrificial table of the Lord and the sacrificial table of demons.
  zh: 这里清楚地画出了主的祭杯与鬼魔的祭杯之间的平行关系，主的祭桌与鬼魔的祭桌之间的平行关系。
- start: 2901.011
  end: 2916.193
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It doesn’t make sense to say, Well, ours is just a symbol, but they had real communion and real sacrifice and real participation, because then you’re making it look like the pagan and the Jewish rites are better, more efficacious than the Christian rites.
  zh: 说「我们的只是象征，但他们有真实的相交、真实的献祭和真实的参与」是说不通的，因为这样就使异教和犹太教的仪式看起来比基督教的仪式更好、更有效。
- start: 2916.994
  end: 2921.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But second, it just doesn’t make sense of Paul’s whole line of reasoning.
  zh: 其次，这与保罗的整个推理思路也不相符。
- start: 2921.655
  end: 2929.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He’s presupposing that this is a sacrifice not unlike the kind of sacrifices you’d have in Judaism or paganism.
  zh: 他预设这是一种献祭，与犹太教或异教中的献祭并无不同。
- start: 2931.218
  end: 2944.345
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This then brings us—we’ve gone through Hebrews 8, 9, and 10. When you get to Hebrews 13, verse 10, there’s this line that has confused many people because the author says, We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.
  zh: 这就带我们——我们已经看过希伯来书8、9和10章。当你读到希伯来书13章10节，有一句话让许多人困惑，因为作者说：我们有一祭坛，那些在帐幕中供职的人没有权柄吃。
- start: 2944.345
  end: 2945.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Well, who are those who serve the tent?
  zh: 那么，那些在帐幕中供职的人是谁？
- start: 2945.525
  end: 2959.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: He’s referring here to the Jewish priests, and his point is we have something holier than the Holy of Holies because we have an altar in which we receive the living presence of God.
  zh: 他在这里指的是犹太祭司，他的观点是我们有比至圣所更圣洁的东西，因为我们有一个祭坛，在那里我们领受神活泼的同在。
- start: 2960.149
  end: 2966.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Again, you’ll find people who interpret that verse in different ways, but it looks like strikingly Eucharistic language.
  zh: 再次说明，你会发现人们对这节经文有不同的解释，但这看起来明显是圣餐的用语。
- start: 2968.107
  end: 2975.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you want to understand the torn temple veil, yeah, it’s true we have direct and unmediated access to God.
  zh: 如果你想理解圣殿帘幔裂开，是的，我们确实有直接和不需中介的途径接近神。
- start: 2975.153
  end: 2984.24
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Every time we receive communion, we are receiving from the altar something that the high priest on Yom Kippur could only dream of doing.
  zh: 每次我们领受圣餐，我们从祭坛领受的是大祭司在赎罪日只能梦想做到的事。
- start: 2986.181
  end: 2994.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Think about it: everyone, Jew and Gentile, high and low, could pray, and God is everywhere.'
  zh: 想想看：每个人，无论犹太人还是外邦人，无论地位高低，都可以祷告，而且神无处不在。
- start: 2994.688
  end: 3000.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: None of what we’re saying about the temple, none of what we’re saying about the Eucharist, denies God’s omnipresence.
  zh: 我们所说的关于圣殿的话，关于圣餐的话，都不否认神的无所不在。
- start: 3000.593
  end: 3003.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But there is a greater sense of the reality of his presence.
  zh: 但这里有一种更强烈的他同在的实在感。
- start: 3003.715
  end: 3005.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is somewhat mysterious.
  zh: 这在某种程度上是奥秘的。
- start: 3005.737
  end: 3014.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There’s something that’s called the Shekinah glory of God, that God was somehow more present in a palpable sort of way in the Ark of the Covenant.
  zh: 有一种被称为神的荣光（Shekinah）的东西，神以某种可感知的方式更多地同在于约柜中。
- start: 3014.162
  end: 3021.207
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It was around the Ark that the whole temple was built to allow a place to come and experience the presence of God.
  zh: 整个圣殿就是围绕着约柜建造的，为要提供一个可以来经历神同在的地方。
- start: 3021.207
  end: 3024.789
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But only the high priest could go in and do that.
  zh: 但只有大祭司能进去做这事。
- start: 3025.257
  end: 3029.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You could come near; you could go to the Holy Place, but you couldn’t go to the Holy of Holies.
  zh: 你可以靠近；你可以进入圣所，但你不能进入至圣所。
- start: 3029.84
  end: 3033.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Hebrews 13 is like, Well, you can do something even more than that.
  zh: 希伯来书13章好像在说，你可以做更多的事。
- start: 3033.563
  end: 3036.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You can receive the true.
  zh: 你可以领受那真实的。
- start: 3036.485
  end: 3046.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Remember, Jesus is more truly the temple than the temple of Jerusalem was because in Jesus, divinity dwells bodily, fully.
  zh: 记住，耶稣比耶路撒冷的圣殿更真实地是圣殿，因为在耶稣里面，神性是完全有形有体地居住的。
- start: 3047.313
  end: 3051.956
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You get the full presence of Christ when you receive the body of Christ.
  zh: 当你领受基督的身体时，你就得到基督完全的同在。
- start: 3052.455
  end: 3057.378
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That’s when you receive the body of Christ in the Eucharist—the blood and water flowing from the side of Christ pointing to this.
  zh: 这就是你在圣餐中领受基督的身体的时候——从基督肋旁流出的血和水指向这一点。
- start: 3057.799
  end: 3061.921
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That’s when you’re incorporated into Christ in the Church through baptism.
  zh: 这就是你通过洗礼在教会中与基督联合的时候。
- start: 3062.182
  end: 3070.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: All of that is pointing to the fact that there is a fuller dwelling of divinity now, and so we have something richer.
  zh: 这一切都指向现在有更完全的神性居住的事实，所以我们有更丰富的东西。
- start: 3070.027
  end: 3081.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'This is the thing that’s so strange: that the same Protestants who knock Catholics for allegedly having to go through all these intermediaries think that their communion is just a symbol.'
  zh: 这是很奇怪的事：那些批评公教会信徒据称必须通过所有这些中介的新教徒，却认为他们的圣餐只是象征。
- start: 3081.975
  end: 3082.815
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And it is!
  zh: 而事实确是如此！
- start: 3082.944
  end: 3089.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It's not just Christ; we have Christ bodily, and we receive him in the Eucharist.
  zh: 这不仅仅是基督；我们有基督的身体，我们在圣餐中领受他。
- start: 3089.149
  end: 3098.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You may agree or disagree with that as a Protestant, but what you should realize is we claim to have a more direct, unmediated access to God than you do.
  zh: 作为新教徒，你可能同意或不同意这一点，但你应该意识到我们声称比你们有更直接、更无中介的途径接近神。
- start: 3099.557
  end: 3105.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You can go to him spiritually in prayer, the way everybody else could before and after the death of Christ.
  zh: 你可以在祷告中在灵里亲近他，就像在基督死前死后所有人都可以做的那样。
- start: 3105.822
  end: 3116.353
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We can now receive something new by receiving divinity bodily in a way that even the Ark of the Covenant, even the Holy of Holies, was only a foreshadowing.
  zh: 我们现在可以以一种新的方式领受神性的身体临在，就连约柜，就连至圣所，也只是这种临在的预表。
- start: 3116.353
  end: 3126.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is something greater, so that even those who served the tent would need to convert to Christianity to experience the fullness of this.
  zh: 这是更大的事，以至于就连那些在帐幕中供职的人也需要归信基督教才能经历这种完全。
- start: 3126.576
  end: 3134.039
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Okay, very last point: if all this is true, how do we make sense then of the priesthood?'
  zh: 好，最后一点：如果这一切都是真的，我们该如何理解祭司职分？
- start: 3134.039
  end: 3143.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Like, if you’ve got this incredible unmediated access where you can receive Jesus in the Eucharist, doesn’t the temple veil at least abolish the idea of an intermediate sort of priesthood?
  zh: 比如，如果你有这种不可思议的无中介的途径可以在圣餐中领受耶稣，圣殿帘幔裂开至少废除了中间祭司职分的概念吧？
- start: 3144.075
  end: 3144.996
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Not really.
  zh: 不完全是。
- start: 3145.576
  end: 3148.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I mean, yes in one sense, no in another sense.
  zh: 我的意思是，从一个角度说是的，从另一个角度说不是。
- start: 3148.018
  end: 3155.682
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Here’s what I would say: you can receive God directly in the Eucharist, so in that sense, that’s as unmediated as it gets.'
  zh: 我要说的是：你可以在圣餐中直接领受神，所以从这个意义上说，这是最无中介的了。
- start: 3155.822
  end: 3159.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: When you receive communion, there’s no one between you and God.
  zh: 当你领受圣餐时，在你和神之间没有任何人。
- start: 3159.625
  end: 3165.468
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You may receive him at the hands of the priest, but he is in your body dwelling.
  zh: 你可能是从祭司手中领受他，但他是住在你的身体里。
- start: 3165.468
  end: 3169.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That’s as unmediated as it gets.
  zh: 这就是最无中介的方式了。
- start: 3169.232
  end: 3184.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Nevertheless, the Eucharistic ministry of offering the sacrifice—of representing the sacrifice of Christ to the Father—and there’s a lot of sacrificial theology we’re just not going to get into right here, that is something that Jesus gives, as I said before, to the apostles and not to everyone.
  zh: 然而，献祭的圣餐职分——向天父呈现基督的祭——这里还有很多献祭神学我们现在不会深入讨论，这是耶稣，如我之前所说，只赐给使徒而不是所有人的。
- start: 3184.597
  end: 3185.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: How do we know that?
  zh: 我们怎么知道这一点？
- start: 3185.117
  end: 3187.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I already alluded to it; we see it at the Last Supper.
  zh: 我已经暗示过了；我们在最后的晚餐中看到这一点。
- start: 3187.698
  end: 3203.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But Malachi 1, verse 11, there is this promise that in the New Covenant, from the rising of the sun to its setting, incense is offered to my name in a pure offering by the Gentiles, that the Gentiles will offer true sacrifice to God.
  zh: 但在玛拉基书1章11节，有这样的应许，在新约中，从日出之地到日落之处，外邦人要向我的名献上香和洁净的供物，外邦人要向神献上真实的祭。
- start: 3203.354
  end: 3211.797
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, one of the reasons that matters is that sacrifice doesn't go away in the New Covenant, because if it did, we'd have to say worship goes away—that Christians don't worship God.
  zh: 现在，这很重要的原因之一是献祭在新约中并没有消失，因为如果消失了，我们就不得不说敬拜也消失了——基督徒不敬拜神。
- start: 3211.897
  end: 3212.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That would be a mistake.
  zh: 那将是个错误。
- start: 3213.818
  end: 3220.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So true sacrifice is offered, and the earliest Christians understood that to be a reference to the Eucharist.
  zh: 所以真实的献祭仍在进行，最早期的基督徒理解这是指圣餐。
- start: 3221.241
  end: 3228.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But the Eucharist is explicitly offered not by everyone, but by those chosen by Christ in a special role.
  zh: 但圣餐明确不是由所有人献上，而是由基督在特殊角色上拣选的人献上。
- start: 3228.783
  end: 3232.225
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This begins with the apostles in Luke 22 at the Last Supper.
  zh: 这始于路加福音22章最后的晚餐中的使徒们。
- start: 3232.446
  end: 3234.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Remember, this is where he says, Do this in remembrance of me.
  zh: 记住，这是他说「你们要如此行，为的是记念我」的地方。
- start: 3234.928
  end: 3236.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That do this is to those who are with him.
  zh: 这个「你们要如此行」是对那些与他同在的人说的。
- start: 3236.769
  end: 3238.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Who's with him?
  zh: 谁与他同在？
- start: 3238.29
  end: 3242.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Luke 22, verse 28: You are those who continued with me in my trials.'
  zh: 路加福音22章28节：「我在磨炼之中，常和我同在的就是你们。」
- start: 3243.134
  end: 3247.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And then he promises that they'll sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
  zh: 然后他应许他们要坐在宝座上，审判以色列十二个支派。
- start: 3248.158
  end: 3251.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: This is a reference quite clearly to the twelve.
  zh: 这很明显是指十二使徒。
- start: 3251.28
  end: 3270.667
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Now, this is going to include not just those who are there present, because one of those twelve, Judas, is going to fall away, and he’ll be replaced by Matthias in Acts chapter 1. But also, this Eucharistic ministry is continued by those appointed by the apostles in every generation afterwards, or else we wouldn't be able to follow Christ's command to do this.
  zh: 现在，这不仅包括当时在场的人，因为十二使徒中的犹大将要堕落，他在使徒行传第1章被马提亚取代。而且，这圣餐的职分由使徒所任命的人在此后的每一代继续下去，否则我们就无法遵行基督的这个命令。
- start: 3271.827
  end: 3284.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And I want to just point out that even though it doesn't say the twelve sitting on the twelve thrones, this is clearly what's happening in the parallel description we get in Matthew 19. It says, You who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes.
  zh: 我要指出，虽然这里没说十二个人坐在十二个宝座上，但在马太福音19章的平行记载中很清楚地说到这一点。经上说：「跟从我的人要坐在十二个宝座上，审判以色列十二个支派。」
- start: 3284.888
  end: 3297.952
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Just in case anyone's confused, this is a reference to apostolic ministry, and that continues on—not by apostles, but by the ministry of those clergy who are ordained by the apostles and then ordained by their successors.
  zh: 为了避免任何人混淆，这是指使徒的职分，这职分继续下去——不是由使徒，而是由使徒按立的神职人员，然后由他们的继承人按立的人继续。
- start: 3298.712
  end: 3310.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: In other words, at the time of Christ, someone who was following Jesus Christ but wasn't one of the clergy couldn't just go home and offer the Eucharist.
  zh: 换句话说，在基督的时代，一个跟随耶稣基督但不是神职人员的人不能就这样回家举行圣餐。
- start: 3311.007
  end: 3324.094
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So, you know, Mary Magdalene—obviously holy; she has a much better track record than the twelve apostles when it comes to faithfully following Jesus from everything we see—she doesn't get to go and offer the Mass.
  zh: 所以，你知道，抹大拉的马利亚——显然是圣洁的；从我们所见的一切来看，在忠实跟随耶稣方面，她的表现比十二使徒都要好——她不能去举行弥撒。
- start: 3324.635
  end: 3326.396
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: There’s no provision for that.
  zh: 这没有这样的规定。
- start: 3327.437
  end: 3329.498
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That was true then, and that’s true now.
  zh: 那时是这样，现在也是这样。
- start: 3329.838
  end: 3332.7
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It’s not a sign of holiness, but it is a sign that there’s a special priesthood.
  zh: 这不是圣洁的标志，而是表明有一个特殊的祭司职分。
- start: 3332.7
  end: 3338.403
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Remember Isaiah 66, the promise that some would be chosen by God as priests and Levites.
  zh: 记住以赛亚书66章，神应许要拣选一些人作祭司和利未人。
- start: 3338.925
  end: 3345.746
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That’s what we see in the Eucharistic or sacerdotal sacramental priesthood.
  zh: 这就是我们在圣餐或圣事祭司职分中所看到的。
- start: 3346.226
  end: 3349.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'So I hope that’s clear: the temple veil does not get rid of the priesthood.'
  zh: 所以我希望这很清楚：圣殿的帘幔并没有废除祭司职分。
- start: 3349.307
  end: 3352.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It does not get rid of the need to intercede for other people.
  zh: 它没有废除为他人代祷的需要。
- start: 3352.107
  end: 3355.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: It does not eliminate our going to other people to pray for us.
  zh: 它没有废除我们去请求他人为我们祷告。
- start: 3355.468
  end: 3367.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The temple veil, instead, shows us that the temple—the orientation of our worship—has now changed in a radical way, away from the temple in Jerusalem and towards the body of Christ.
  zh: 相反，圣殿的帘幔向我们表明，圣殿——我们敬拜的方向——现在发生了根本性的改变，从耶路撒冷的圣殿转向基督的身体。
- start: 3367.984
  end: 3376.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: And now we have a new and living way to the Father because when we receive his Son, we are receiving the fullness of divinity bodily.
  zh: 现在我们有了一条又新又活的路通向天父，因为当我们领受他的儿子时，我们就在身体上领受了神性的完全。
- start: 3376.929
  end: 3386.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: So this is a great promise that is in no way a knock on any Catholic theology but is uniquely, I would argue, fulfilled in a Catholic sacramental understanding.
  zh: 所以这是一个伟大的应许，它绝不是对任何公教会神学的批评，而是，我要说，独特地在公教会圣事的理解中得到了应验。
- start: 3386.134
  end: 3390.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You just don't find a good fulfillment of that anywhere in Protestantism.
  zh: 你在新教中找不到这样好的应验。
- start: 3391.837
  end: 3392.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I hope that helped.
  zh: 我希望这些有帮助。
- start: 3392.458
  end: 3402.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: We’re going to be in a very different world next week as we look at Sennacherib in the Old Testament and try to make sense of one of those confusing seminal Old Testament passages.
  zh: 下周我们将进入一个非常不同的世界，我们要看旧约中的西拿基立，并试图理解那些令人困惑的重要旧约经文之一。
- start: 3402.992
  end: 3404.954
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: But for now, for Shem and Spopery, I’m Joe Heschmeyer.
  zh: 现在，在《闪姆与教皇制》节目中，我是乔·赫施迈尔。
- start: 3404.954
  end: 3405.514
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: God bless you.
  zh: 愿神祝福你。
