你好，欢迎回到无耻教皇党。 Hi, and welcome back to Shameless Popery.
我是天主教答疑的乔·赫什迈尔，我想探讨一个流行的问题，即马 利亚在耶稣诞生后是否仍是处女。你知道，天主教徒和大多数新教 徒都同意马利亚在受胎告知时是处女，在耶稣诞生时也是处女。 I'm Joe Heschmeyer of Catholic Answers, and I want to explore a popular question about whether or not Mary was a virgin after the birth of Jesus, that, you know, Catholics and most Protestants agree Mary was a virgin at the time of the Annunciation, she was a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth.
但问题是，她之后还是处女吗？ But there's this question, was she a virgin after?
事实上，许多新教徒认为天主教徒只是在编造， 认为马利亚永远保持处女是某种圣经外的想法。 And in fact, a lot of Protestants think Catholics are just kind of making this up, that it's some kind of extra-biblical idea that Mary remained perpetually a virgin.
也许你不知道，这不仅是天主教徒的观点，也是东正教和绝大多数早期基督徒的观点。 And maybe you're unaware that this is the view, not only of Catholics, but of Orthodox and overwhelmingly of the early Christians as well.
所以我想探讨为什么会这样，以及这揭示了我们阅读圣经的不同方式。因为我认为这正 是它所揭示的，这是那些教义之一，如果你采取简单化、表面化的圣经阅读方式，你会 得到一个答案，而如果你以更深入、更深思熟虑的方式阅读，你会得到不同的答案。 And so I want to explore kind of why that is and what this reveals about the divergent ways in which we read the Bible, because I think that's what this really reveals, because this is one of those doctrines where if you take the simplistic, surface-level reading of Scripture, you're going to get one answer, and if you read it in a deeper and more ponderous way, you get a different one.
这并不是唯一类似的问题。 And that's not the only issue like this.
比如，在约翰福音第14章，耶稣说，父是比我大的。很好。 You know, for instance, in John 14, Jesus says, the Father is greater than I. Great.
所以如果你否认三位一体，这就是你会引用的经文，对吧？ And so if you deny the Trinity, this is the verse you go to, right?
你只需说，耶稣说父比我大，这有什么难理解的？ You just say, Jesus says the Father is greater than I, how hard is that to understand?
你对此采取了一种非常表面的理解。 And you take a really surface-level understanding of it.
如果你想得到这句话真正的含义，你必须深入研究并真正问自己，这句话的意思是什么？ If you want the right answer of what this means, you have to dig in and really say, what is meant by this?
我带着什么假设来理解这句话，我假设耶稣的意思是一回事，但也许他的意思是另一回事？ And what assumptions am I bringing to the table where I'm assuming Jesus means one thing, and maybe he means something different?
所以我的意思是，这不仅仅是关于马利亚永久童贞的问题，尽管这很重要， 但正如我们将看到的，它指出了我们对性、婚姻和圣洁有一种破碎的理解。 So that's what I mean, that this isn't just a question about Mary's perpetual virginity, as important as that is, but as we'll see, it points to how we have kind of a broken understanding of sex, but also of marriage and of holiness.
这就是我希望展示的。 That's what I hope to kind of show.
因此，我建议我们应该以马利亚式的方式阅读圣经，而不是采取表面的阅读方式。 And so instead of taking that surface-level reading, I would suggest we should read Scripture in a Marian sort of way.
我这么说是什么意思？ What do I mean by that?
在路加福音第2章第19节，圣路加说马利亚把这一切事存在心里，反复思想。 In the Gospel of Luke, in Luke 2, verse 19, St. Luke says that Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart.
也就是说，她目睹了这些事件，但随后她仔细思考它们。 That is, she witnesses these events, but then she chews on them.
她思考它们。 She thinks about them.
她深思它们。 She ponders them.
正是以这种方式，我们被鼓励去接近新约的奥秘。 And it's in that way that we're actually encouraged to approach the mysteries of the New Testament.
不仅仅是表面阅读，而是真正深入其中。 Not just to take the surface-level reading, but to actually go deeper.
如果你阅读新约，你会一次又一次地看到，那些表面理解耶稣的人误解了他。 If you read the New Testament, you'll see over and over and over again, the people who interpret Jesus at that surface-level misunderstand him.
他们误解了他。 They get him wrong.
我想说，这正是这里发生的情况。 And I want to suggest that's exactly what's going on here.
现在，我认为值得探讨的另一个方面是，正如我提到的，早期基督徒。 Now, another place I think is worth going is, as I've mentioned, the early Christians.
所以在公元300年代，一个名叫赫尔维迪乌斯的人主张马利亚和约瑟继续生育子女。 So in the 300s, a guy by the name of Helvidius argued that Mary and Joseph continued to have children.
这是标准的新教立场。 The standard Protestant position.
圣耶柔米在一部名为《驳赫尔维迪乌斯》的作品中回应 了他，这部作品有时也被称为《马利亚永久童贞》。 And St. Jerome replies to him in a work called Against Helvidius, or sometimes called The Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
这个引言真是尖锐。 And the introduction is really biting.
非常犀利。 It's really sharp.
他说，不久前有些弟兄请我回应一个叫赫尔维迪乌斯的人写的小册子。 He says, I was requested by certain of the brethren not long ago to reply to a pamphlet written by one Helvidius.
我一直推迟这样做，不是因为维护真理和驳斥一个几乎没有学问的无知之人 是件困难的事，而是因为我担心我的回应可能会使他看起来值得被击败。 I have deferred from doing so, not because it is a difficult matter to maintain the truth and refute an ignorant boor who has scarce known the first glimmer of learning, but because I was afraid my reply might make him appear worth defeating.
这真是尖锐。 Now this is sharp.
耶柔米以直言不讳著称。 Jerome is not known for pulling punches.
但这应该让任何相信马利亚不是永久童贞的新教徒稍作停顿。 But it should give any Protestants who believe that Mary was not a perpetual virgin a little bit of pause.
原因如下。 Here's why.
耶柔米住在伯利恒。 Jerome lived in Bethlehem.
他精通希腊语、希伯来语和拉丁语。 He was fluent in Greek, in Hebrew, and in Latin.
他是拉丁文武加大译本的主要翻译者。 He is the chief translator of the Latin Vulgate.
他对犹太教的了解比几乎任何早期的、比如说古代的外邦基督徒都要深。 He knew Judaism better than almost any Gentile Christian of the early, like, of antiquity.
因此，他认为马利亚永久童贞是如此明显，以至于他觉得任何持不同观点的人都是可笑的。 And so he takes it as so glaringly obvious that Mary was perpetually a virgin that he finds it laughable that anyone would take a different view.
显然，他在这一点上并不孤单，对吧？ And clearly, he's not alone in this, right?
当时的其他基督徒对赫尔维迪乌斯写的小册子感到 如此震惊，以至于他们写信给耶柔米请他回应。 The other Christians of his day are so scandalized by Helvidius writing a pamphlet that they write to Jerome asking him to reply.
但这并不是标准。 But this is not the standard.
你知道，新教的观点根本不是标准观点。 You know, the Protestant view is not the standard view at all.
它也不是普通基督徒中的标准观点。 And it's not the standard view among ordinary Christians.
它不是当时那些懂古代语言并熟悉犹太文化的学者们的标准观点。 It's not the standard view among scholars of the day who understand the ancient languages and who are familiar with Jewish culture.
所以这一切应该让现代读者说，是否有可能耶柔米，住在伯利恒，在耶稣诞生的洞穴里，懂 希伯来语，了解犹太资料，他可能知道一些我不知道的关于古代犹太教和永久童贞的事情？ And so all of that should lead the modern reader to say, is it possible that Jerome, who lives in Bethlehem, in the tomb, or excuse me, in the cave where Jesus is born, who knows Hebrew, who knows Jewish sources, is it maybe possible he knows something I don't about ancient Judaism and about perpetual virginity?
我认为我们将会看到这正是事实。 And I think we're going to see this exactly what the case is.
但要达到这一点，我首先想讨论新教徒通常不相信马利亚永 久童贞的论点，并回答这些论点，然后再阐述正面的论据。 But to get there, I want to first go through the arguments for why Protestants don't typically believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary and kind of answer those and then lay out the positive case.
我将从你可能认为马利亚和约瑟有其他孩子的所有理由开始。 I'm going to start with all of the reasons you might think Mary and Joseph have other children.
这就是反对马利亚永久童贞的论点。 So this is the case against Mary's perpetual virginity.
我将根据我听到的论点和最近听到的论点来讨论。 And I'm going off of the arguments I've heard and the arguments I've heard recently.
可能还有其他论点，但我尽力捕捉了流行的论点和最好的论点。 There may be other ones out there, but I've done my best to try to capture the popular arguments and then the best arguments.
第一个是马太福音第1章，在圣约瑟的梦中，天使说，大卫的子孙约瑟 ，不要怕，只管娶过你的妻子马利亚来，因她所怀的孕是从圣灵来的。 The first is that Matthew 1, in the dream of St. Joseph, the angel says, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary, your wife, for that which is in her is conceived – excuse me, that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
所以这个想法是，「娶」是性行为的委婉说法。 And so the idea is that, well, take is a euphemism for sex.
对此的回答很简单，它不是。 And the answer to that is just, it's not.
这是对这段经文的误解。 That is a misunderstanding of the passage.
这个「娶」实际上是关于尼苏因的，这是犹太婚姻的第二阶段。 That taking is actually about the Nisuin, which is the second stage of a Jewish marriage.
如果你不知道这意味着什么，那很好。 So if you don't know what that means, well, good.
这就是这个播客后半部分要讲的内容。 That's what the second half of this podcast is all about.
这里的「娶」是一个特定的概念，我们必须从犹太人的 角度理解，而不是用我们自己对这些词的理解来解释。 That the taking going on here is a specific idea we have to understand on Jewish terms and not apply our own kind of understanding of those words.
这就很简单了。 So that's simple enough.
但之后，在第24节，约瑟从梦中醒来，我们被告知，他遵照主的使者所吩咐的去做。 But then after that, in verse 24, Joseph gets up from the dream, and we're told, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him.
他娶了他的妻子，只是没有和她同房，直到她生了儿子。 He took his wife, but knew her not until she'd born a son.
现在，「娶他的妻子」并不是性行为的委婉说法。 Now, taking his wife is not a sexual euphemism.
「认识他的妻子」才是性行为的委婉说法。 Knowing his wife is a sexual euphemism.
你知道，在创世记第4章，亚当认识了夏娃，她就生了该隐，对吧？ That, you know, Adam knew Eve and she gave birth to Cain in Genesis 4, right?
这种「认识」，这种肉体的认识，是关于性的。 It's that knowing, that carnal knowledge, this is about sex.
所以这应该立即告诉我们，好吧，「娶」和「认识」对马太来说显然是不同的。 So that should immediately tell us, okay, well, taking and knowing are clearly something different to Matthew.
那么他所说的「娶」是什么意思呢？ So what does he mean by taking?
我们稍后会回到这个问题。 Again, we'll get back to that.
但接着说，他没有认识她，直到她生了儿子。 But then, he knew her not until she'd born a son.
好的，这看起来很简单，对吧？ Okay, that seems simple enough, right?
「直到」就是「直到」。 Until means until.
父是比我大的。还有什么比这更简单的呢，对吧？ The Father is greater than I. What could be easier than that, right?
嗯，再说一次，事实并非如此简单。 Well, again, it doesn't really work that way.
因为「直到」，无论是在英语还是希腊语中，可以表 示直到某个特定点，但不一定意味着之后就改变。 Because until, both in English and in Greek, can mean up to a certain point, but not after.
直到，但不是之后，对吧？ Until, but not after, right?
或者它可能只是意味着到这个点为止。 Or it could just mean to this point.
我给你举个例子。 I'll give you an example.
如果我说，我试图去参加那个派对，但从我到那里直到我离开的时候，音乐一直很吵。 If I say, I tried to go to that party, but the music was blaring from the time I got there until the time I left.
我并不是在暗示他们在我到达时开始播放音乐，或在我离开时关掉音乐。 I'm not suggesting that they started the music when I got there or turned it off when I left.
这里的「从」和「直到」是指叙述中的特定相对时间点。 The from and until there are referring to a specific point relative for the narrative.
它们实际上并不是说在「直到」之后条件就停止了。 They're not actually saying the condition stopped holding after the until.
或者举个圣经的例子，在哥林多前书中，我们被告知 基督必须作王，直到神把一切仇敌都放在他的脚下。 Or to take a biblical example, in 1 Corinthians, we're told that Jesus must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
这是否意味着在他的仇敌被放在他脚下之后，耶稣就不再作王了？ Does that mean Jesus doesn't reign after his enemies are put under his feet?
不，「直到」并不意味着这个。 No, until doesn't mean that.
所以假设「直到」总是意味着只到这一点为止然后就不再如此，这 是在应用「直到」的一种含义，而这种含义在这里并不一定成立。 So assuming that until always means only until this point and then not after is applying a connotation of until that it doesn't necessarily hold here.
它可能有这个意思。 It can mean that.
但从上下文来看，它通常并不是这个意思。如果你告诉你的孩子，在我回 来之前要乖，你并不是在告诉他们，我希望你们在我回来时就不乖了。 But contextually, it often doesn't. If you tell your kids, be good until I get back, you're not telling them, I want you to misbehave when I return.
它就是不是这个意思。 It just doesn't mean that.
在希腊语中也是如此。 And the same is true in Greek.
所以我们应该问，那么圣马太到底在说什么？ And so we should be asking, well, what is St. Matthew saying then?
为什么他说直到生子？ Why does he say until the birth?
如果他不是想说马利亚和约瑟在圣诞节那天发生性关系，或者在耶稣出生后有时 发生性关系，为什么他要特别指出从这一刻到耶稣出生他们没有发生性关系？ If he's not trying to say Mary and Joseph had sex on Christmas or that they had sex sometimes after Jesus was born, why would he specify that they didn't have sex from this moment until Jesus was born?
事实上，马太确实告诉了我们他在说什么。 Well, it turns out Matthew actually tells us what he's saying.
所以在马太福音24至25节，正如我们所说，他没有认识她，直到她生了儿子。 So in Matthew 24 to 25, as we said, he knew her not until she'd born a son.
就在这之前，在22和23节，他解释说，这一切的发生是要应验主借先知所说的话。 Right before that, in verses 22 and 23, he explains, this took place to fulfill what the Lord has spoken by the prophet.
这是以赛亚的预言，看哪，必有童女怀孕生子，人要称他的名为以马内利。 This is the prophecy from Isaiah, behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.
现在，我们经常把这看作是一件事，就是童女马利亚会怀孕并生下婴儿。 Now, we often think of that just as one thing, that the virgin Mary will get pregnant and have a baby.
但这是相隔九个月的两个不同时刻。 But those are two different moments, nine months apart.
你知道，如果你理解圣诞节，你就会明白在圣诞节前九个月，马利 亚必须在受胎告知时和圣诞节时都是处女，这个预言才能应验。 You know, if you get Christmas, you get nine months before Christmas, that Mary has to be a virgin, both at the moment of the Annunciation and at the moment of Christmas for this prophecy to be filled.
这有两个方面，一个是童贞受孕，一个是童贞生子。 There's two prongs to it, a virgin conception and a virgin birth.
如果马利亚在怀上耶稣时是处女，但在那之后到圣诞节之 间的某个时候与约瑟发生性关系，那么预言就不会应验。 If Mary's a virgin when she conceives Jesus, but then goes on to have sex with Joseph sometime between then and Christmas, the prophecy would not be fulfilled.
因此，马太并不是想告诉我们任何关于马利亚和约瑟性生活的事情，无论是这样还是那样。 And so Matthew is not trying to tell us anything at all about the sex life of Mary and Joseph, one way or the other.
他并不是想证明马利亚的永久童贞。 He's not trying to prove Mary's perpetual virginity.
他也不是想否认马利亚的永久童贞。 He's not trying to deny Mary's perpetual virginity.
在上下文中，这里的信息很明显与前面的经文相联系，这是关于怀孕和生子的。 In context, the intel here is very clearly tied to the preceding verse, that this is about conceive and bear.
从马利亚在腹中怀上耶稣的那一刻起，直到耶稣诞生的那一刻，马利亚都是处女。 From the moment of Mary's conception of Jesus in her womb until the moment of Jesus's birth, Mary's a virgin.
这就是他想说的全部。 That's all he's trying to say.
就是这样。 That's it.
这并没有告诉我们之后发生了什么。 Tells us nothing about what happens after.
所以这种解释只是断章取义，以肤浅的方式阅读，并要求「直到」意 味着它不一定意味着的东西，无论是在希腊语还是英语中都是如此。 So the intel argument is just ripping a verse out of context, reading it in a superficial way and demanding that intel means something it doesn't necessarily mean, again, either in Greek or in English.
这是另一个版本的「父是比我大的」。你得到了表面的解读，但你完全脱离了上下文。 It's another version of doing the father is greater than I. You got the surface reading, but you've ripped it completely out of context.
你对圣经的神学含义的上下文没有理解。 You have no understanding of the biblical context of theological meaning.
好的，所以到目前为止，这种解释并不能真正证明相反的观点。 Okay, so, so far, the intel argument doesn't really, you know, it doesn't, doesn't prove the opposite.
它并不能证明新教徒是错的。 It doesn't prove Protestants are wrong.
它实际上并不意味着他们试图让它表达的意思。 It just doesn't actually mean the thing they're trying to make it mean.
将马太的话理解为马太在论证马利亚和耶稣，对不起，马利亚和约瑟在耶稣 出生后有其他孩子，这是试图将他的话理解为他在这段经文的上下文中明显 不是想说的东西，但似乎确实有一些积极的证据指向其他孩子，对吧？ Matthew, to read this as Matthew arguing that Mary and Jesus, excuse me, Mary and Joseph have children after Jesus's birth, he's trying to read him as saying something he very clearly is not trying to say in the context of the passage, but there does seem to be positive evidence that point to other kids, right?
耶稣的兄弟们。 The brothers or brethren of Jesus.
例如，在马可福音第三章，我们被告知耶稣的母亲和他的 兄弟们来了，人群说，你的母亲和你的兄弟在外面找你。 So for instance, Mark three, we're told that Jesus's mother and his brethren came and the crowd says, your mother and your brethren are outside asking for you.
很好。 Great.
足够清楚了。 Clear enough.
马可福音第六章，人群说，这不是那木匠吗？不是马利亚的儿子雅 各、约西、犹大、西门的长兄吗？他妹妹们不也是在我们这里吗？ Mark six, the crowd say, is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joseph and Judah and Simon are not his sisters here with us.
所以听起来耶稣有很多兄弟姐妹，至少四个兄弟，谁知道有多少姐妹。 So it sounds like Jesus has a ton of siblings, at least four brothers, who knows how many sisters.
这是马利亚和约瑟后来生的很多兄弟姐妹，特别 是考虑到当耶稣成年时约瑟似乎已经去世了。 That's a lot of siblings that Mary and Joseph go on to have, particularly since Joseph appears to be dead by the time Jesus reaches adulthood.
这很令人惊讶。 It's remarkable.
事实上，我们发现当耶稣12岁时，耶稣、马利亚和约瑟上圣 殿时没有提到兄弟姐妹。当他30岁时，约瑟已经去世，但在 那18年的间隔里，显然马利亚和约瑟生了很多孩子，对吧？ In fact, we find Jesus, Mary and Joseph with no mention of siblings going up to the temple when Jesus is 12. When he's 30, Joseph is dead, but sometime that 18 year gap, apparently Mary and Joseph had a ton of kids, right?
这很好，因为我们甚至知道他们的名字，雅各、约瑟、犹大和西门。 And it's great because we even know their names, James and Joseph and Judah and Simon.
这有什么问题呢？ And what's the problem with this?
嗯，再次说明，我们是通过现代21世纪英语使用者的耳 朵来理解这些，而不是通过犹太人的耳朵或眼睛来理解。 Well, again, we're reading this through modern 21st century English speaking ears and not reading it through Jewish ears or Jewish eyes.
我认为这与阅读有关。 I think it's with reading.
在创世记第14章，我使用英王钦定本，因为它实际上更清楚。 In Genesis 14, I'm using the KJV because it's actually clearer.
亚伯拉罕和罗得被描述为叔侄关系，也被描述为兄弟。 Abraham and Lot are described as uncle and nephew and as brothers.
所以在第12节，它说，他们掳了住在所多玛的亚伯拉罕的侄儿（兄弟的儿子）罗得。 So in verse 12, it says, they took Lot, Abraham's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom.
然后两节之后，当亚伯拉罕听说他的兄弟被掳去，人们会说，哦，看那圣经矛盾。 And then two verses later, when Abraham heard that his brother was taken captive, and people will say, oh, look at that biblical contradiction.
罗得是他的侄子还是他的兄弟？ Is Lot his nephew or his brother?
嗯，他是他的兄弟，对不起，他是他的侄子，但两者都是。 Well, it's his brother, excuse me, it's his nephew, but it's both.
如果你理解这里「兄弟」的含义，就会知道「兄弟」意味着一系列的亲属关系。 If you understand what brother means here, that brother means a whole range of relations.
事实上，我在这里使用英王钦定本的原因是，许多现代圣经会将第二次使用的「 兄弟」仅仅翻译为「亲属」，我认为这有点模糊，因为这个词就是「兄弟」。 In fact, the reason I'm using the KJV here is that many modern Bibles will translate that second use of brother just as kinsmen, which is a little bit shady, I think, because the word is just brother.
但在这里它的意思是亲属。 But it means kinsmen here.
它可能只是指任何种类的近亲。 It could just mean any kind of close relative.
就像你的曾曾曾曾曾祖父只是你的父亲一样，你知 道，「亚伯拉罕父亲」这个说法到处都在使用。 So just as like your great, great, great, great, great grandfather is just your father, you know, father Abraham is used all over.
他们并不是字面上的意思，说他只比他们大一代。 They don't literally mean he is one generation removed from them.
同样，你的表兄弟、叔叔、侄子，这些都是你的兄弟。 So likewise, your cousin, your uncle, your nephew, those are all your brother.
在希伯来语，在古希伯来语中，家庭词汇非常有限。 There's a very limited familial vocabulary in Hebrew, in ancient Hebrew.
所以如果你不想一直说「你兄弟的儿子」，你可以直接说「兄弟」。 And so if you don't want to say constantly your brother's son, you can just say brother.
从上下文来看，我们明白你的意思。 And contextually, we get what you mean.
或亲属。 Or kinsmen.
在这里它们的意思是一样的。 It means the same thing here.
所以希望这能清楚地表明，我们并不是说每次提到兄弟时都是指亲生兄弟。 So hopefully that's clear that we're not saying every time brother comes up that it's literally a biological brother.
现在，这并不意味着它不是，但这应该让我们稍作停顿。 Now, that doesn't mean that it's not, but it should give us some pause.
所以说到犹大的兄弟们。 So Judas's brothers.
回到马可福音第6章。还记得那些兄弟的名字吗，雅各、约瑟、犹大和西门？ Go back to Mark 6. Remember the brothers' names, James and Joseph and Judas and Simon?
在马可福音第15章，当马可描述耶稣被钉十字架时，他告诉我们有些妇 女远远地观看，其中有抹大拉的马利亚，和小雅各并约西的母亲马利亚。 Well, in Mark 15, when Mark is describing the crucifixion, he tells us there were some women who were looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James, the younger and of Joseph.
等一下。 Hold on a second.
雅各和约瑟有一个不同的母亲，另一个马利亚，在约 翰福音的平行记载中被列为革罗罢的妻子马利亚。 James and Joseph have a different mom, the other Mary, who in the parallel account in John's gospel is listed as Mary, the wife of Clopas.
所以这应该让我们稍作停顿。 So this should give us some pause.
首先，无论你是新教徒还是天主教徒，你都不认为这里的兄弟是字面意义上的兄弟，对吧？ First of all, whether you're Protestant or Catholic, you don't think brother means brother here literally, right?
你不认为这些是耶稣的亲兄弟。 You don't think these are the full brothers of Jesus.
你要么认为他们是他的同父异母兄弟，要么是继兄弟，要么是表兄弟。 You either think they're his half-brothers or his step-brothers or his cousins.
但是除非有人否认马利亚的童贞，除非他们否认耶稣是由童 贞女所生，否则没有人相信雅各和约瑟是耶稣的亲兄弟。 But nobody, unless they deny the virginity of Mary, unless they deny that Jesus is virgin-born, nobody believes that James and Joseph are full brothers of Jesus.
所以唯一的问题是，这里所指的兄弟是什么更复杂的关系？ So the only question is, what more complicated relationship is being referred to here as brother?
可能是表兄弟，可能是同父异母兄弟，可能是继兄弟。 Could be cousin, could be half-brother, could be step-brother.
好吧，马可福音第15章给了我们线索，至少雅各和约瑟有一个不同的母亲，马利亚。 Well, we're given the clue in Mark 15 that James and Joseph, at least, have a different mom, Mary.
然后约翰福音第19章给了我们线索，这个其他的马利亚是革罗罢的妻子。 And then we're given the clue in John 19 that this other Mary is the wife of Clopas.
到目前为止，圣经证据，4世纪的优西比乌有最早的教会历史之一。 Now, so far, the biblical evidence, Eusebius in the 4th century has one of the earliest church histories.
它就叫《教会历史》。 It's just called Church History.
他引用了一个更早的来源，希革西普，这个来源今天大部分已经失传，但他是2世纪的人。 And he quotes an earlier source, Hegesippus, who is mostly lost to us today, but he's from the 2nd century.
希革西普记载革罗罢是约瑟的兄弟。 And Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.
这是在耶路撒冷教会的背景下，优西比乌说耶路撒冷教会一致同意， 宣布革罗罢的儿子西门，福音书中也提到过他，配得主教的宝座。 So this is in the context of the church in Jerusalem, and Eusebius says that the church in Jerusalem, with one consent, pronounced Simeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the gospel also makes mention, to be worthy of the Episcopal throne.
他们选择西门，或西蒙，耶稣的这些其他兄弟之一，他 是革罗罢和马利亚的儿子，作为耶路撒冷的主教之一。 That they chose Simeon, or Simon, one of these other brothers of Jesus, who's the son of Clopas and Mary, as one of the bishops of Jerusalem.
他们说他是救主的表兄弟，因为希革西普记载革罗罢是约瑟的兄弟。 He was a cousin, as they say, of the Savior, for Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.
所以你不必接受那部分，那部分不是受启发的经文，但它确实解释了证据，如 果他们是表兄弟，就像亚伯拉罕和罗得，叔侄关系，他们被称为兄弟，那么， 雅各、约瑟、西门，所有这些女孩，还有其他人，这些都是表兄弟姐妹。 So you don't have to take that part, that part's not inspired scripture, but it certainly makes sense of the evidence, that if they're cousins, just like Abraham and Lot, uncle and nephew, they're called brothers, well, James, Joseph, Simon, all these girls, whoever else, these are all cousins.
这也解释了为什么他们有这么多人，而我们在耶稣婴儿时期没有看到任何人。 It also makes sense of why there's so many of them, when we don't see anybody in Jesus's infancy.
我们没有看到任何人作为耶稣的兄弟姐妹和他一起上耶路撒冷的圣殿。 We don't see anybody with Jesus as a sibling going up to the temple in Jerusalem.
这就是兄弟论点。 So that's the brothers argument.
它可能意味着他有亲生兄弟，但实际上并不一定意味着这个，或者不需要这样理解。 It could mean that He has biological brothers, but it doesn't actually mean that, or doesn't require that meaning.
下一个是预言性论点。 Next one is a prophetic argument.
在诗篇69篇第8节说，我成了弟兄们的陌生人，成了我母亲的儿子们的外人。 In Psalm 69, verse 8, it says, I've become a stranger to my brethren and alien to my mother's sons.
所以这个论点说，啊哈，看，这是个巧妙的论点，因为它说 ，好吧，当然，兄弟不一定意味着他们是你母亲的孩子。 And so the argument says, aha, see, it's a clever argument, because it says, okay, sure, brethren doesn't have to mean that they're your mother's children.
但在诗篇69篇第8节，它清楚地说，我母亲的儿子们。 But in Psalm 69, verse 8, it clearly says, my mother's sons.
这里的问题是你在使用一篇预言性的弥赛亚诗篇，并且过于字面化地理解它。 The problem here is that you're using a prophetic messianic psalm and just taking it extremely literally.
这种理解不成立的原因是，在同一篇诗的第5节说 ，神啊，我的愚昧你原知道，我的罪愆不能隐瞒。 And here's why that doesn't work, because in verse 5 of the same psalm, it says, O God, thou knowest my folly, the wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee.
所以如果你要说这一切都字面上适用于耶稣，你 就不得不说耶稣真的犯了罪，而这是不成立的。 So if you're going to just say all of this applies literally to Jesus, you're going to have to also say Jesus literally sinned, and that doesn't work.
所以这里的母亲很可能是耶路撒冷，可能是以色列，也可能只是诗人本人。 So the mother here could easily be Jerusalem, could be Israel, could just be the psalmist.
预言性诗篇的每一部分并不都能字面上适用于耶稣。 Not every part of a prophetic psalm literally applies to Jesus.
所以这只是对预言性论证的一种错误使用。 So this is just a bad use of prophetic kind of argumentation.
我要说，这不是一个从旧约中得出的有效论点。 This is, I would say, not a valid argument from the Old Testament.
好的，让我们总结一下。 Okay, just kind of wrapping this up.
我有时还听到过另外三个论点。 There's three other arguments I've sometimes heard.
第一个，你知道，婚内性行为没有什么错。 The first, you know, there's nothing wrong with marital sex.
嗯，当然，没有人说有错，对吧？ Well, sure, nobody said there was, right?
就像，我们相信婚姻是一种圣事，这种圣事通过性行为来完成。 Like, we believe marriage is a sacrament, and that this sacrament is consummated through sex.
这是C.S.路易斯所说的「博尔维主义」的一个例子。 So this is an example of what C.S. Lewis calls Bolverism.
用路易斯的话说，你必须先证明一个人是错的，然后才能开始解释为什么他是错的。 In Lewis's words, you must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he's wrong.
就像，你不能只是说，啊哈，好吧，你这么想只是因为你对性有偏见。 Like, you can't just say, aha, well, you just think that because you're hung up about sex.
实际上是，不，不，我们这么想是因为圣经实际上指向的方向与你的假设不同。 It's like, no, no, we think that because Scripture actually points in a different direction than your assumption.
第二种剩余的论点是，嗯，如果他们没有性行为，那就不是真正的婚姻。 The second kind of remaining argument, well, if they didn't have sex, it wasn't a real marriage.
嗯，这是错误的。 Well, this is false.
一旦我们进入犹太背景，我们就会看到，按照我们在西方、在基督 教背景下理解的那种完婚的概念，并不是犹太婚礼的运作方式。 Once we get into the Jewish context, we'll see that consummation, in the sense that we think of it in the West, in the Christian context, is not the way it worked for Jewish weddings.
对犹太婚礼来说，完婚实际上是两个家庭的结合。 Consummation for a Jewish wedding was actually coming together of houses.
所以尼苏因，即把女人带到你的屋檐下，这才是完成婚姻的方式。 And so the nisuin, the carrying of the woman, you bring her under your roof, that's what consummated the marriage.
实际上，你可以在那之前发生性关系，我们接下来会看到。 You could actually have sex before that, as we're going to see.
所以在古代犹太教中，婚姻的完成方式与现代基督教中的不同。 So marital consummation doesn't work the same way in ancient Judaism as it does in modern Christianity.
所以那个论点不成立。 And so that argument doesn't work.
它也不是真的。 It also isn't really true.
即使在完婚之前，你仍然有一个真正的婚姻，但我们不会深入讨论批准与完婚的所有细节。 You still have a real marriage even prior to consummation, but we're not going to get into all of the ratification versus consummation bit.
就像，当神父说你们是夫妻时，你们真的就是夫妻了，即使婚姻还没有完婚。 Like, when the priest says, you're a man and wife, you really are a man and wife, even though the marriage hasn't been consummated.
最后一个论点是，约瑟娶了马利亚，之后却发现不能和她发生性关 系，这对约瑟来说是残酷的，你知道，这里有一个诱骗和欺瞒。 And then the final argument is it would be cruel for Joseph to get married to Mary only to find out afterwards that he couldn't have sex with her, that Joseph has been, you know, there's a bait and switch here.
老实说，这个论点让我感到厌恶，因为我认为这是一种不健康的态度。 And that argument grosses me out, to be honest, because I think it's an unhealthy attitude.
你知道，如果你结婚后，你的妻子瘫痪了或生病了，或者有某种医 疗状况导致你们不能经常发生性关系，你会觉得被神剥夺了吗？ You know, if you get married and then your wife is paralyzed or sick or has some medical condition where you can't have sex regularly, do you feel like deprived by God?
你会觉得神对你不公平吗？ Do you feel like God's done you an injustice?
这似乎是对女性、对婚姻、对性的一种非常不健康的态 度，即使在婚姻中，你也不是随时都有权要求性行为。 It just seems like a really unhealthy attitude towards women, towards marriage, towards sex, that you are not just entitled to sex on demand, even when you're married.
事情就是不是这样运作的。 It just doesn't work that way.
但此外，正如我们将看到的，这假设约瑟不知道马 利亚将永远是处女，我认为这不是一个好的假设。 But additionally, as we're going to see, this assumes that Joseph didn't know Mary was going to perpetually be a virgin, which is not, I think, a good assumption.
好的，到目前为止我只处理了反对意见。 Okay, so far I've only handled objections.
你可能会说，这不是一个很有说服力的论点。 And you might say, this is not a very persuasive case.
嗯，到目前为止它并不是为了说服人。 Well, so far it isn't meant to be.
我只是说反对的论点并不能有说服力地证明相反的观点。 I'm just saying the arguments against don't persuasively prove the contrary.
所以让我们来看看支持的论点。 So let's look at the arguments for.
有哪些论点支持马利亚永远是处女？ What are the arguments in favor of Mary being perpetually a virgin?
要达到这一点，我认为我们必须做几件事。 And to get there, I think we've got to do a couple of things.
首先，我们必须解析圣经对婚姻的看法。 The first is we have to unpack the biblical view of marriage.
我的意思是，在第一世纪的犹太背景下，婚姻是什么样子的？ And by this, I just mean, what did marriage look like in the first century in a Jewish context?
因为它与今天的样子真的不一样。 Because it doesn't really look like what it looks like today.
它甚至与今天犹太背景下的样子都不一样，更不用说基督教背景了。 It doesn't even look like what it looks like today in a Jewish context, much less a Christian one.
探讨这个问题的一种方式是问，马利亚是未婚母亲吗？ And a way of exploring this question would be to ask the question, was Mary an unwed mother?
很多人会说，是的，当然她是。 And a lot of people will say, yeah, of course she was.
但我要说的是，在圣经中明确地说，你知道，她没有丈夫就怀孕了。 But I'm going to say that explicitly in the Bible, you know, she doesn't have a husband and she gets pregnant.
那么，这有什么问题呢？ Well, what's the problem with that?
嗯，耶稣在圣殿里，这就是问题所在。 Well, Jesus in the temple, that's the problem.
我们稍后会回到耶稣在圣殿里的另一个方面。 We're going to get back to a different dimension of Jesus in the temple.
但现在，只需注意申命记23章说，私生子不可入耶和华的会。 But for now, just notice that in Deuteronomy 23, no bastard shall enter the assembly of the Lord.
他的后裔，直到第十代，也不可入耶和华的会。 Even through the 10th generation, none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord.
换句话说，如果你是婚外受孕的，你就不被允许进入圣殿。 In other words, if you were conceived out of wedlock, you were not allowed in the temple.
所以那些说马利亚是未婚母亲的人实际上是在说耶稣是私生子。 So the people saying Mary's an unwed mother are saying Jesus is a bastard.
如果你说耶稣是私生子，那么他就不被允许进入圣殿。 And if you say Jesus is a bastard, then he's not allowed in the temple.
耶稣的对手肯定会很乐意抓住这个机会来攻击他。 And certainly Jesus's opponents would have loved a chance to throw that at him.
如果耶稣不被允许进入圣殿，你不认为法利赛人会提出这一点吗？ If Jesus wasn't allowed in the temple, you don't think the Pharisees would have brought that up?
你不认为撒都该人会提到这一点吗？ You don't think the Sadducees would have mentioned that?
但事实上，在马太福音26章，当耶稣被捕时，他在第 55节指出，你们带着刀棒出来拿我，如同拿强盗。 But in fact, Matthew 26, when Jesus is being arrested in verse 55, he points out, you've come out as against a robber with clubs and swords to capture me.
我天天坐在殿里教训人，你们并没有拿我。 Day after day, I sat in the temple teaching and you did not seize me.
所以耶稣一直在圣殿里，如果他是婚外生或婚外受孕的，这是不可能的。 So Jesus is in the temple all the time, which isn't possible if he was born out of wedlock or conceived out of wedlock.
事情不是这样运作的。 Doesn't work like that.
所以这应该让我们问，我们是如何误解犹太婚礼的？ So that should make us say, how are we misunderstanding Jewish weddings?
因为显然，我们对路加福音1章和马太福音1章的理解会说耶稣是婚外受孕的。 Because clearly, our reading of Luke 1 and Matthew 1 would say Jesus is conceived out of wedlock.
但他们的理解是他不是。请记住，即使是那些不知道童贞受孕的人，即使是那些没有意识 到耶稣是奇迹般受孕的人，那些假设约瑟是他父亲的人，仍然认为耶稣是合法出生的。 But their reading was that he wasn't. Bear in mind, even people who don't know about the virgin conception, even people who don't realize Jesus is miraculously conceived, who assume that Joseph is his father, still think Jesus is legitimately born.
然而，不仅仅是耶稣的追随者说，嘿，这并不真的是罪，因为这是奇迹。 Yet it's not just Jesus's followers who say, hey, it's not really sinful because it was miraculous.
不，这里没有任何罪的暗示。 No, there is no hint of there being any sin around this.
在所有对耶稣提出的指控中，没有人认为约瑟和马利亚因为生孩子而犯罪。 All of the charges being raised against Jesus, nobody is arguing that Joseph and Mary sinned by having a baby.
你注意到这一点了吗？ Have you noticed this?
这是一个非常重要的细节。 This is a really significant detail.
约瑟决定暗暗地休了马利亚，这应该在我们头脑中敲响两个警钟： 一，为什么他要谈论休掉一个我们认为他甚至没有结婚的女人？ Joseph resolves to divorce Mary quietly, and the two alarm bells that should be going off in our head is one, why is he talking about divorcing a woman who we thought he wasn't even married to?
二，怎么暗暗地休掉她就能避免让她蒙羞呢？ And two, how would divorcing her quietly avoid putting her to shame?
你知道，在现代背景下，如果你在和某人约会，你订婚了，你怀孕了，他 离开了你，你并没有免于羞耻，因为在订婚期间发生性关系是有罪的。 You know, in a modern context, if you're dating somebody, you get engaged, you get pregnant and he leaves you, you have not been preserved from shame because it's sinful to have sex during the engagement period.
好吧，正如我们将看到的，当我们认为马利亚和 约瑟是以现代意义上的订婚时，我们是错误的。 Well, as we're going to see, we're mistaken when we think that Mary and Joseph are engaged in the modern sense of that.
而且他们有性关系是完全可以的，只是他们没有。但我说得太快了。 And that it was perfectly fine for them to be having a sexual relationship, except that they weren't. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
所以让我们退一步。 So let's step back.
犹太婚礼包括两个阶段，称为克杜申和尼苏因。 A Jewish wedding consists of two stages, was called the Kedushin and the Nisuin.
现在这两个阶段是一个仪式的一部分，但直到11世纪之前，它们曾是两个独立的仪式。 Now these are part of one ceremony now, but they used to be two separate ceremonies until the 11th century.
主要的变化是，现在你作为未婚男性有了一个不仅仅是你父亲家的居住地。 And the major change is that you now have like a place you live as an unmarried man that isn't just your dad's house.
换句话说，现在存在单身公寓之类的东西。 In other words, like bachelor pads and things exist now.
你可以和室友一起住，但这在古代并不是真实的情况。 You can live with roommates, but this wasn't really a reality in antiquity.
所以拉比艾丹·斯坦萨尔特说，犹太婚礼由两部分组成。 So Rabbi Aidan Steinsalt says, a Jewish wedding is made up of two parts.
克杜申，这通常被称为订婚。 Kedushin, this is often called the betrothal.
这不是一个很好的词，但确实没有更好的词来形容它。 It's not a great word for it, but there's not really a better word for it.
如果要翻译的话，订婚是我们能找到的最接近的词，但它与我们西方的订婚概念非常不同。 Like if you're going to translate it, betrothal is as close as we're going to get, but it's very different than our Western concept of a betrothal.
但克杜申是订婚，尼苏因是结婚。 But the Kedushin are betrothal and Nisuin, marriage.
虽然它被称为订婚，但克杜申不仅仅是对马利亚的承诺，它实际上是一种婚姻。 Although it is called betrothal, Kedushin is not just a commitment to Mary, it is an actual marriage.
所以你看为什么把它称为订婚和结婚真的会误导人，因为第一个实际上就是婚姻。 So you see why calling it betrothal and the marriage are really misleading, because the first one's actually the marriage.
例如，如果这对夫妇选择不完成尼苏因的婚姻，他们将需要正式离婚。 For example, if the couple chooses not to complete the marriage with Nisuin, they will need a formal get a divorce.
在米示拿时代，这两个部分通常相隔约一年进行，以便给新娘和新郎时间准备婚礼和婚姻。 In the time of the Mishnah, these two parts normally took place about a year apart in order to give the bride and groom time to prepare for the wedding and for their marriage.
但今天它们在婚礼仪式上是一个接一个完成的。 But today they're done one after the other at the wedding ceremony.
现在我只想补充几点。 Now I just add to this a couple things.
正如我们所看到的，拉比对这两个阶段的描述绝对得到了圣经证据的支持。 And as we see, the rabbi's description of the two stages is absolutely supported by the biblical evidence.
在马太福音1章18至19节说，耶稣基督降生的事记 在下面：他母亲马利亚已经许配了约瑟，还没有迎娶。 In Matthew 1, verse 18 to 19, it says, Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way, when his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph before they came together.
好的，所以这里有订婚，有迎娶，有两个阶段。 Okay, so there's betrothal, there's coming together, there's two stages here.
马利亚就从圣灵怀了孕。她丈夫约瑟是个义人， 不愿意明明地羞辱她，想要暗暗地把她休了。 She was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit, and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to send her away quietly.
所以有两个阶段，他经历了订婚和迎娶。 So there's two stages, he's gone the betrothal and the coming together.
在订婚阶段，约瑟已经是她的丈夫了，他需要离婚才能结束这段婚姻。 And at the betrothal, Joseph is already her husband, and he needs a divorce to get out of the marriage.
这就是休妻。 That's sending her away.
所以为了解释为什么会这样，我之前提到过。 So just to kind of explain why this is, I alluded to this before.
在古代，你是一个年轻人，你看到一个美丽的年轻女子，你决定要结婚。 In the ancient world, you're a young man, you see a beautiful young woman, you decide we're going to get married.
所以你结婚了，但你和你父亲住在一起。 So you get married, but you live with your dad.
她不能就这样搬来和你一起住。 She can't just come live in your house.
所以你需要去为她准备一个住处。 So you need to go and prepare a place for her to live.
如果她的父亲已经去世，你有三个月的时间来做这件事。 And so if her dad is dead, you have three months to do that.
如果她的父亲还活着，你有一年的时间。 If her dad's alive, you have a year.
现在还有其他事情，你可以想象，按照犹太法律，事情会变得复杂，但这是基本的想法。 Now there's other things that, as you can imagine, with Jewish law, it gets complicated, but that's the basic idea.
你有一定的时间可以去为她准备一个家。 You have a certain amount of time where you can go and prepare a home for her.
这在新约中以我们没有注意到的方式被美丽地描述了。 This is really beautifully described in the New Testament in a way that we don't notice.
耶稣在约翰福音14章的最后晚餐中说，在我父的家里有许多住处。 Jesus, at the Last Supper in John 14, says, In my Father's house are many rooms.
若是没有，我就早已告诉你们了。我去原是为你们预备地方去。 If it were not so, would I have told you I go to prepare a place for you?
我若去为你们预备了地方，就必再来接你们到我那里去，我在哪里，叫你们也在那里。 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
这真是美妙。 That is gorgeous.
他在说，教会啊，你是我的新娘。 What he's saying is, Church, you are my bride.
克杜申已经完成。 The Kedushin is complete.
剩下要做的就是新郎去为他的妻子准备好房子。 What remains to be done is for the bridegroom to go get the house ready for his wife.
然后他把她带进房子。 And then he brings her into the house.
他们住在一起。 They come together.
她进入房子。 She enters the house.
正如我们将看到的，她随后就在他的权柄之下。 She then is under his authority, as we'll see.
这就完成了婚礼的第二个阶段。 And that completes the second stage of the wedding.
因此，在犹太塔木德的克图博特48中说，即使在她订婚之后，也就是在克杜申之 后，女儿始终在她父亲的权柄之下，直到她通过婚礼华盖进入她丈夫的婚姻权柄。 And so in the Jewish Talmud in Ketubot 48, it says, Even after she is betrothed, that is, even after the Kedushin, a daughter is always under her father's authority until she enters her husband's authority in marriage via the wedding canopy.
所以婚礼的第二个阶段是关于从父亲的权柄下转移到丈夫的权柄下。 So the second stage of the wedding was about the transferring from being under the headship of your father to being under the headship of your husband.
它不是关于性行为上的婚姻完婚。 It was not about consummating the marriage sexually.
它是关于在属灵意义上开始共同生活，作为一个女人，你处于谁的权柄之下。 It's about coming to live together in the spiritual significance of whose headship you're under as a woman.
犹太学者迈克尔·萨特洛谈到在第一阶段，也就是克杜申期间，你可以发生性关系。 Michael Satlow, who is a Jewish scholar, talks about how during this first stage, the Kedushin, you could have sex.
而且这种做法正在逐渐改变。 And there's a move away from this.
所以当你阅读这些时，要看你关注的是哪个时代，因为拉 比们不喜欢这一点，他们希望将性行为保留到第二阶段。 So when you're reading about this, it depends what era you're kind of looking at, because the rabbis hate the fact they want to preserve sex until the second stage.
但在古代，性行为在第一阶段就很普遍。 But in antiquity, sex was widespread in the first stage.
所以他说，拉比的资料表明，至少在一些犹太社区 中，可能很长的订婚期伴随着对贞洁期望的降低。 And so he says, Rabbinic sources indicate that at least among some Jewish communities, the perhaps lengthy period of betrothal was accompanied by decreasing expectations of chastity.
现在，我要对此稍有争议。 Now, I'm going to quibble with that a tiny bit.
但他随后引用了一个巴比伦的资料，说在犹大，他会在订婚期间与她在一起。 But he then quotes a Babylonian source that says in Judea, he would be together with her during the betrothal.
然后他说，即使在巴勒斯坦的资料中，在犹大订婚的 犹太夫妇也以在婚姻本身之前就发生性关系而闻名。 And then he says, even in Palestinian sources, Jewish couples betrothed in Judea had a reputation for having sexual relations before the marriage itself.
现在，我再次要对此有争议，因为这暗示他们基本上 是在逃避什么，你知道，在订婚期间发生性关系。 Now, I would again, I would quibble with this, because this suggests that they're basically getting away with something, you know, having sex during the engagement.
而这根本不是这里发生的情况。 And that's just not what's going on here.
他们发生性关系不会引起丑闻的原因是因为在克杜申期间他们在法律上已经结婚了。 The reason it's not scandalous for them to be having sex is because they're legally married during the Kedushin.
他们只是没有住在同一个房子里。 They're just not living together in the same house.
我们从犹太资料中知道这一点。 And we know this from Jewish sources.
所以塔木德中有一整个部分都是关于克杜申如何运作的。 So there's an entire part of the Talmud that's all about how the Kedushin works.
它说，一个女人通过三种方式被一个男人获得，即成为他的妻子。 And it says, a woman is acquired by, i.e., becomes betrothed to, a man to be his wife in three ways.
它详细说明了通过金钱、通过文件和通过性交，你可以通过支 付嫁妆、签署合同或仅仅通过彼此发生性关系来订立克杜申。 And it elaborates through money, through a document, and through sexual intercourse, that you can contract the Kedushin either by paying a dowry, by signing a contract, or just by having sex with each other.
这就是为什么圣保罗警告你不要与妓女发生性关系，因为如果你和一个未婚的妓 女发生性关系，在犹太法律看来，你们就结婚了，假设你们都是未婚的，对吧？ This is why St. Paul warns you not to have sex with prostitutes, because if you and an unmarried prostitute have sex, in the eyes of Jewish law, you just got married, assuming you're both unmarried, right?
有时候就是这样运作的。 And this is how it worked sometimes.
例如，在创世记24章，当以撒和利百加相遇时，以撒只 是把她带进帐篷，他们发生性关系，她就成了他的妻子。 So for instance, in Genesis 24, when Isaac and Rebekah meet each other, Isaac just brings her into the tent, and they have sex, and she becomes his wife.
就这么简单。 It's that easy.
所以这没有任何丑闻。 So there's no scandal attached to this.
这甚至没有一丝丝丑闻的迹象。 There's no even a hint or a whiff of scandal with this.
他们不是在通奸。 They're not fornicating.
他们不是在犯奸淫。 They're not committing adultery.
他们是通过性行为缔结婚姻。 They're contracting marriage through sex.
从西方的角度来看，这很奇怪。 Now, that is strange from a Western perspective.
就像，这不是我们对性和婚姻关系的看法。 Like, that is not how we think of the relationship of sex and marriage.
显然，这是一种私下缔结婚姻的方式，所以拉比们更喜欢公开进行 ，通过嫁妆或合同，因此他们反对这种缔结克杜申的第三种方式。 Obviously, this is a private way of contracting marriage, and so the rabbis prefer it to be done publicly, through dowry or through a contract, and so they push against this third way of contracting the ketusha.
但事实是，你可以发生性关系，现在你们在法律 上已经订婚了，然后你们回到各自父母的家。 But the fact is, you could have sex, and now you were legally betrothed, and then you go back home to your parents' houses.
就像，你们还没有住在一起，因为现在倒计时开始了。 Like, you don't live together yet, because now the clock starts ticking.
他可以去为你准备一个房子，然后把你带到他的家里。 He can go and prepare a house for you, and bring you into his home.
就是这样运作的。 That's how it works.
那么为什么我要如此详细地解释这个犹太背景呢？ So why do I go to this length explaining this Jewish context?
因为当天使加百列向童贞女马利亚显现时，马利亚和约瑟已经完成了克杜申。 Because when the angel Gabriel appears to the virgin Mary, Mary and Joseph have already completed the ketusha.
他们在法律上已经结婚了。 They are legally married.
他们可以自由地发生性关系而不会有一丝丑闻。 They may freely have sex without a whiff of scandal.
他们也住在犹大。 They also live in Judea.
这是普遍的。 This is widespread.
这是正常的。 This is normal.
然而，他们没有发生性关系。 And yet, they aren't having sex.
在路加福音1章34节，我通常喜欢的RSVCE版本有一个糟糕的翻译。 In Luke 1, verse 34, the RSVCE, which is the version I usually like, has a terrible translation.
马利亚对天使加百列说，这怎么可能呢，因为我没有丈夫？ Mary says to the angel Gabriel, how can this be, since I have no husband?
好吧，我们刚从马太福音1章看到，她确实有丈夫，对吧？ Well, we just saw from Matthew 1, she does have a husband, right?
它说的是她的丈夫约瑟。 Her husband, Joseph, is what it says.
但事实证明这不是它实际说的。 But it turns out that's not what it actually says.
这是一个委婉的翻译。 This is a euphemistic translation.
英王钦定本在这里好得多。 The KJV is a lot better here.
她说，这怎么可能呢，因为我不认识男人？ She says, how shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
换句话说，她不是在说她没有结婚。 In other words, she's not saying she's not married.
她是在说她没有性生活。 She's saying she's not sexually active.
那么她怎么会有孩子呢？ So how is she going to have a baby?
现在，这对一个已婚女性来说是一个奇怪的问题。 Now, that is a weird question for a married woman to ask.
你告诉一个已婚女性，你将会有漂亮的孩子，而她说，怎么可能？ You tell a married woman, you're going to have beautiful children, and she says, how?
我没有和任何男人发生性关系。 I'm not having sex with any man.
这应该引起警觉。 That should set off alarm bells.
这段婚姻中有些奇怪的事情正在发生。 Something weird is going on in this marriage.
这段婚姻中另一件奇怪的事是，马太福音第1章告诉我们，我们已经看过这 段经文，但让我们用新的眼光来看，在约瑟被告知要娶马利亚为妻，也就是 完成尼苏因之后，他娶了他的妻子，只是没有和她同房，直到她生了儿子。 The other thing that's weird going on in the marriage is we're told, Matthew 1, we've already seen this passage, but let's look at it with new eyes, that after Joseph is told to take Mary, his wife, that is, to complete the Nisuin, he took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son.
现在，我们把所有注意力都集中在「直到」上，但 没有人在问，为什么马利亚和约瑟不发生性关系？ Now, we focus all this attention on the until, but nobody's saying, why in the world are Mary and Joseph not having sex?
天使加百列并没有告诉他们这样做。 The angel Gabriel didn't tell them to.
他们是不是只是在试图确保以赛亚书第7章得到应验？ Are they just trying to make sure Isaiah 7 gets fulfilled?
他们是不是在用自己的人力，为了神而试图实现这个预言？ They're like, by their own human power, trying to work the fulfillment of this prophecy for God's sake?
这里到底发生了什么？ What's going on here?
为什么他们不发生性关系？ Why are they not having sex?
因为加百列并没有告诉他们不要发生性关系。 Because Gabriel didn't tell them not to have sex.
马利亚的行为就像她不会发生性关系，而且他们至少又持续了九个月没有性关系。 Mary acts like she's not going to have sex, and they continue for nine more months at least not having sex.
这是怎么回事？ What is going on?
所以这应该引起警觉。 So this should be setting off alarm bells.
这里有些奇怪的事情正在发生。 Something weird is going on here.
好吧，让我补充一点，在死海古卷中，我们发现了如果一个年轻 女孩或年轻女性在圣殿中立下永久童贞誓言该怎么办的规定。 Well, let me add to this, that in the Dead Sea Scrolls, we find the provisions laid out for what to do if a young girl or a young woman makes a perpetual virginity pledge in the temple.
什么时候它是有约束力的？ When is it binding?
在什么条件下？ Under what conditions?
这类问题。 Those kind of questions.
因此，早期基督徒的想法，即马利亚立下了某种承诺，某种永久童贞的誓言 ，在犹太人对婚姻的理解和对永久童贞誓言的理解的背景下是有意义的。 And so the idea that the early Christians had, that Mary had taken some kind of promise, some kind of vow of perpetual virginity, makes sense in light of the Jewish understanding of marriage and makes sense in light of the Jewish understanding of perpetual virginity vows.
如果这是真的，那么约瑟和马利亚对婚姻的期望就不是性关系。 If that's true, then what Joseph and Mary are expecting out of marriage is not a sexual relationship.
他们期望的是类似伴侣关系的东西，因为在古代世界，女性真的很脆弱。 They're expecting something like companionship, that women in the ancient world were really vulnerable.
这就是耶稣在拿因城寡妇的儿子死时对她表现出的那种关怀。 That's the kind of care Jesus shows to the widow of Nain when her son dies.
为什么？ Why?
因为她是个寡妇，所以作为一个女人在这个世界上非常脆弱。 Because she's a widow, and so she's very vulnerable as a woman in this world.
所以当她唯一的儿子死了，她就更加脆弱了。 And so when her only son dies, she's much more vulnerable.
同样，如果马利亚立下永久童贞的誓言，约瑟成为她在应对这个 对女性尤其严酷的世界时的重要帮助和盟友，这并非不合理。 Well, likewise, if Mary's taking a vow of perpetual virginity, it's not unreasonable that Joseph would be an important aid and an ally for her in navigating a world that was often pretty harsh, especially to women.
换句话说，在犹太背景下，这是有意义的。 So it makes sense, in other words, in light of the Jewish context.
如果我们没有这个背景，整件事对我们来说就只是令人困惑。 If we don't have that context, the whole thing is just mystifying to us.
好的，让我们从耶稣的受孕和出生跳到他的死亡。 Okay, so let's jump from Jesus's conception and birth to his death.
在约翰福音19章，我们已经看到了这段经文的一部分，在耶稣十字架旁边站着 他母亲，他母亲的姐妹，革罗罢的妻子马利亚——我甚至没有提到这个细节。 In John 19, we already saw part of this passage, that by the cross of Jesus for his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas—I didn't even mention this detail.
如果马利亚是革罗罢的妻子，那么这是童贞女马利亚的嫂子。 If Mary's the wife of Clopas, this is the Virgin Mary's sister-in-law.
记住，革罗罢和约瑟是兄弟。 Remember, Clopas and Joseph are married to each other.
所以他母亲的姐妹也叫马利亚是有道理的。 So it makes sense why his mother's sister would also be named Mary.
如果像乔治·福尔曼那样，马利亚的父母给所有的女儿都取名马利亚，那就很奇怪了。 It'd be very strange if you had like a George Foreman situation where Mary's parents are just naming all of their daughters Mary.
但如果你把姐妹，像兄弟一样，看作是一个更灵活的术语，用于各 种关系，那么嫂子，你可以自由地称她为马利亚的姐妹马利亚。 But if you take sister, like brother, to be a much more fluid term that you use it for a variety of relationships, then sister-in-law, you can freely call her Mary's sister Mary.
所以他母亲的姐妹马利亚，革罗罢的妻子，和抹大拉的马利亚。 So his mother's sister Mary, the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
耶稣见母亲和他所爱的那门徒站在旁边，就对他母亲说：「母亲，看，你的儿子！」 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, woman, behold your son.
然后他对那门徒说：「看，你的母亲！」 Then he said to the disciple, behold your mother.
从那时起，那门徒就接她到自己家里。 And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own home.
这是非常值得注意的。 And this is remarkable.
我认为，如果你要看一段经文来快速理解为什么马利亚的永久童贞是真实的，以 及为什么认为马利亚有其他孩子是愚蠢的，就是这一段，这就是要去的地方。 This is, I think, if you got to look at one passage to quickly understand why the perpetual virginity of Mary is true, and why it's silly to think Mary had other children, this one, this is where to go.
因为耶稣刚刚把他的母亲托付给了一个非亲属，使徒约翰。 Because Jesus just entrusted his mother to a non-relative, the Apostle John.
否则他这样做是没有意义的。 And it just doesn't make sense that he would have done that otherwise.
在十诫中，要孝敬父母。 In the Ten Commandments, honor your father and mother.
我们现在经常把这理解为孩子要听父母的话。 We often think about that now as like children listen to your parents.
这不是它的意思。 That's not what it means.
十诫主要不是为孩子写的。 The Ten Commandments aren't written primarily for kids.
我的意思是，它也包含这个意思，但不仅仅是这个意思。 I mean, it means that as well, but that's not all it means.
它是关于照顾年迈的父母。 That it's about taking care of your aged parents.
所以这里的马利亚，就像拿因城的寡妇，没有丈夫了，儿子也快死了。 And so here's Mary, like the widow of Nain, who's got no husband anymore, whose son is dying.
所以耶稣被看到在照顾她。 And so Jesus is seen to her care.
如果耶稣是她唯一的儿子，这就说得通了。 That makes sense if Jesus is her only son.
但如果她有其他孩子，无论是在犹太背景还是基督 教背景下，把马利亚托付给约翰都是不可想象的。 But if she has other children, it is unthinkable in either a Jewish or a Christian context that you would entrust Mary to John.
你会把马利亚托付给其他任何一个兄弟。 You would entrust Mary instead to any of the other brothers.
你甚至不需要托付马利亚，因为如果他们稍微像样一点，他们就会主动承担起这个责任。 You wouldn't even need to entrust Mary, because they would step up to the plate and do that if they're even halfway decent.
对此，新教徒通常会回应说，嗯，也许这些兄弟不是信徒。 And so what usually gets said in response to this, Protestants will say, well, maybe these brothers were not believers.
首先，这并不重要。 It doesn't matter, first of all.
十诫对犹太人和基督徒都同样具有约束力。 The Ten Commandments were binding on Jews and Christians alike.
他们有道德责任。 They had a moral duty.
事实上，提摩太前书第5章第8节说，人若不看 顾亲属，就是背了真道，比不信的人还不好。 In fact, 1 Timothy, chapter 5, verse 8 says, anyone who doesn't provide for his relatives and especially for his own family has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
这就是基督教的立场。 That's the Christian kind of stakes.
这就是我们对此有多认真。 That's how seriously we take this.
你在塔木德中也会找到类似的告诫，作为一个犹太人 或基督徒，你有强烈的道德责任照顾年迈的父母。 And you'll find similar kind of admonitions in the Talmud, that as a Jew or as a Christian, you have a strong moral duty to take care of your aging parents.
但这也说不通，因为这些新教徒会说，主的兄弟雅各实际上是马利亚的儿子。 But this also doesn't make sense, because these same Protestants will say that James, the Lord's brother, is literally the son of Mary.
我们知道他是忠实的基督徒之一，因为在加拉太书1:19，圣 保罗说，至于别的使徒，除了主的兄弟雅各，我都没有看见。 And we know he's one of the faithful Christians, because in Galatians 1.19, St. Paul says, I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
所以我们应该相信使徒中有马利亚的亲生后代。 So we're supposed to believe that among the apostles are biological descendants of Mary.
现在，当然。 Now, sure.
使徒们在受难日没有出现。 The apostles don't show up on Good Friday.
只有约翰出现了。 Only John does.
但他们被终身惩罚，母亲被带走了。 But they get punished for life by having their mother taken away from them.
这有一丝道理吗？ Does that make even an ounce of sense?
即使在这之后，当雅各据称是耶稣的亲兄弟，他是耶路撒 冷早期教会的正直成员，他再也不能把他的母亲要回来？ That even after this, when James is allegedly biological brother of Jesus, he's an upstanding member of the early church in Jerusalem, he doesn't get his mom back ever again?
这是对圣经如此糟糕的解读。 This is such a bad reading of Scripture.
你明白我的意思吗？ You see what I mean?
当你真正试图把这些碎片拼在一起，说雅各和约瑟，耶稣的 兄弟，有不同的父母，但我们仍然要说他们是他的兄弟。 When you actually try to put these pieces together and say, James and Joseph, Jesus's brother, have a different mom and dad, but we're still going to say they're his brothers.
顺便说一下，马利亚刚刚被托付给约翰，而约翰不是这 些兄弟中的一个，不是雅各、约瑟、西门或任何姐妹。 And by the way, Mary's just been entrusted to John, who isn't one of these brothers, James or Joseph or Simon or any of the sisters.
据称耶稣有一大群家人，却把他的母亲永久托付给一个非亲属，让她余生与之生活。 Allegedly Jesus has a whole slew of family and just gave his mom to the permanent care to go live with a non-relative for the rest of her life.
这有任何道理吗？ Does that make any sense?
答案是不，这没有道理。这行不通。 And the answer is no, it doesn't. It doesn't work.
认为这就是这里发生的事情，这是一个如此糟糕的论点。 It is such a bad argument to think that's what's going on here.
好的。 Okay.
所以最后一件事。 So the final thing.
通过犹太人的眼光而不是现代美国人对婚姻的看法来看 待这个问题后，我们还应该重新认识圣经中的圣洁观。 Having looked at this through the eyes of a Jewish rather than a modern American vision of marriage, we should also reclaim a biblical vision of holiness.
这就是我的意思。 Here's what I mean by that.
今天，当你想到圣洁时，你会想到什么？ Today, when you think about holy, what comes to mind?
对许多人来说，它就像是道德上正直的东西。 For many people, it is something like morally upright.
一个做好事的人，或者你知道，甚至可能像是比你更圣洁，对吧？ Someone who does good things or, you know, maybe even like holier than thou, right?
就像我们在某种负面意义上使用它，但它全都是关于善良。 Like we use it in kind of a negative sense, but it's all about just like goodness.
对不起，这是对圣洁非常不完整的理解，因为在圣经意义上的 圣洁意味着比这多得多，而且实际上是与此截然不同的东西。 And that is a very incomplete understanding of holiness, excuse me, because holiness in the biblical sense means so much more than that and something actually radically distinct from that.
无论我们谈论的是希伯来版本，所以希伯来语中圣洁的词，其定义首先 是一种分离性、圣洁性、神圣性、分别性，即某物被分别出来归给神。 Whether we're talking about the Hebrew version, so the Hebrew word for holiness, the definition, first and foremost is a partness, holiness, sacredness, separateness, that is something being set apart for God.
这就是Kodesh。 That's Kodesh.
同样，希伯来语，对不起，希腊语hagios意味着为神分别出来的东西。 Well, likewise, the Hebrew, excuse me, the Greek hagios means something set aside for God.
它意味着与众不同。 It means other.
它是被分别出来，奉献给神的东西。 It's something that is just set aside, consecrated for God.
你知道，回想一下摩西和燃烧的荆棘，神对摩西说要脱掉鞋子，因为这是圣地。 You know, think back to like Moses and the burning bush where God says to Moses to remove his sandal because this is holy ground.
这并不意味着地面在道德上是正直的。 It doesn't mean the ground is morally upstanding.
地面并没有做任何有德行的事。 The ground hasn't done anything virtuous.
这地是奉献给神的。 The ground is consecrated to God.
它是为神分别出来的，只属于神。 It's set aside for God and to God alone.
所以在这地上穿上你脏的凉鞋是冒犯的。 And so to put your dirty sandals on this ground is offensive.
这将是圣洁的一个非常重要的含义。 That's going to be a really important sense of holiness.
不幸的是，我们今天不太使用这个，但这对理解如何理解这一点真的很重要。 We don't use very much today, unfortunately, that's really important for understanding how to make sense of this.
我要说天主教徒确实使用这个，你知道，比如圣水。 And I would say Catholics do use that, you know, like holy water.
当我们谈论圣水时，我们的意思是它被分别出来用于神圣用途。 When we talk about holy water, we mean it's set aside for divine use.
所以当我们谈论圣洁的人时，我们经常想到，你知道，圣徒般的品质。 And so often when we talk about like holy people, we think about, you know, saintliness.
我们想到美德，但我们可能会失去那种为神分别出来的感觉。 We think about virtue, but we can lose that sense of being set aside for God.
所以有了这个重要的理解，我们在圣经中哪里看到这种意义上的圣洁？ So with that important understanding, where do we see holiness in that sense in the Bible?
嗯，我们看到它的一个地方是约柜。 Well, one place we see it is the Ark of the Covenant.
在撒母耳记下第6章，有一段重要的经文可以帮助我们理解马利亚。 And so in 2 Samuel 6, there's an important passage for making sense of Mary.
它说，大卫起身，和跟随他的众人从巴拉犹大前往，要从那里 将神的约柜运来；这约柜就是以万军之耶和华的名称为名的。 It says, David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baal Judah to bring up from there the Ark of God, which is called by the name of the Lord of Hosts.
它坐在基路伯之上。 It sits enthroned on the cherubim.
所以约柜是这个神圣的容器，如此神圣以至于不能 被触摸，它容纳了示基纳，神的荣耀，神的同在。 So the Ark was this sacred container, so holy it could not be touched, that housed the Shekinah, the glory of God, the presence of God.
他们在犹大的山地。 And they're in the hill country of Judah.
大卫刚刚在耶路撒冷建立了新的首都。 And David has just created the new capital in Jerusalem.
所以他想把约柜从犹大的山地带到耶路撒冷。 And so he wants to bring the Ark from the hill country of Judah into Jerusalem.
所以我们被告知他起身从犹大山地出发，试图把约柜带回来。 And so we're told he arose and went from the hill country of Judah to try to bring in the Ark.
但他没有用正确的方式做。 But he doesn't do it the right way.
他没有按照神告诉他的方式去做。 He doesn't do it the way God told him to do it.
他只是让一些人试图用牛车移动约柜。 He just has some guys trying to move the Ark on a cart with some oxen.
他们穿过犹大山地，到了拿艮的禾场，牛绊跌，约柜开始掉落，一个名叫乌撒的可怜人， 他本不该处在这种情况下，伸手去扶住神的约柜，结果因触摸如此神圣的东西而被击杀。 And they're going through the hill country of Judah, and they get to the threshing floor of Nacon, and the oxen stumble, the Ark starts to fall off, and a poor guy named Uzzah, who shouldn't be in the situation he's in, reaches out, puts his hand to the Ark of God, takes hold of it, and he's struck dead for touching something that holy.
现在，很容易说，可怜的乌撒，就像我刚才说的那样。 Now, it's easy to say, poor guy named Uzzah, as I did.
但事实是，他不应该随意处理如此神圣的东西。 But the truth is, he should not be messing around with something this holy.
它是为神圣用途分别出来的。 It's set aside for divine use.
它不应该被放在由平民驾驶的牛车上。 It should not be on an ox cart led by some layman.
这不是他们应该做的。 That's not what they're supposed to do.
它应该由祭司队伍抬着。 It's supposed to be carried by priestly procession.
所以他被击杀了。 And so he is struck dead.
大卫随后回答说，耶和华的约柜怎可到我这里来？ David then replies, how can the Ark of the Lord come to me?
所以，当他在谋划答案时，他在犹大山地停留了三个月。 And so, while he's scheming the answer to that, he stays in the hill country of Judah for three months.
他最终能够把约柜带到耶路撒冷，我们被告知他在耶和华面 前尽力跳舞，他穿着细麻布的以弗得，那是祭司的服饰。 He eventually is able to bring the Ark into Jerusalem, and we're told that he danced before the Lord with all his might, and he was girded with a linen ephod, that's a priestly vestment.
现在，我想让你把这与圣路加对探访的描述进行比较。 Now, I want you to compare that to St. Luke's description of the visitation.
路加福音1章39节说，那时，马利亚起身，急忙往山地里去，来到犹大的一座城。 Luke 1, verse 39, it says, in those days Mary arose and went with haste to the hill country, to a city of Judah.
好的。 Okay.
所以用词是一样的。 So the verbiage is the same.
她起身去了。 She arose and went.
地点是一样的。 The location's the same.
她去了犹大的山地。 She's going to the hill country of Judah.
她进了撒迦利亚的家，问候伊丽莎白。 She goes into the house of Zechariah, greets Elizabeth.
伊丽莎白一听到马利亚问安，腹里的胎儿就跳动。 When Elizabeth hears the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb.
所以就像大卫在约柜前跳舞一样，施洗约翰，他是祭司家族的，是祭司撒迦利亚的儿子。 So just as David danced before the Ark, John the Baptist, who is of the priestly line, he's a son of a priest, Zechariah.
所以细麻布的以弗得是祭司身份的象征。 So the linen ephod is a symbol of priesthood.
施洗约翰，祭司的儿子，在伊丽莎白的子宫里跳舞。 John the Baptist, son of a priest, is dancing in the womb of Elizabeth.
伊丽莎白被圣灵充满，高声喊着说，你在妇女中是有福的，你所怀的胎也是有福的。 And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cries out, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
所以就像大卫说的，耶和华的约柜怎可到我这里来？ And so just as David had said, how can the Ark of the Lord come to me?
伊丽莎白现在说，我主的母到我这里来，这是从哪里得的呢？ Elizabeth now says, and why is this granted me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
这是一个美丽的对比。 It's a beautiful parallel.
然后继续说。 And then it goes on.
因为你问安的声音一入我耳，我腹里的胎儿就欢喜跳动。 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.
然后跳到第56节，看哪，马利亚和伊丽莎白同住约有三个月，就回家去了。 And then jumped down to verse 56, and lo and behold, Mary stays there three months before she returns home.
所以你看到了所有这些非常明显的对比。 So you've got all of these very obvious parallels.
她起身去了。 She arose and went.
她去了犹大的山地。 She goes into the hill country of Judah.
她有这个非常相似的问候，在伊丽莎白和大卫之间， 大卫说，耶和华的约柜，伊丽莎白说，我主的母亲。 She has this very similar greeting between Elizabeth and David, where David says, Ark of the Lord, Elizabeth says, Mother of my Lord.
施洗约翰在约柜（马利亚）面前跳舞，就像在原来的约柜前跳舞一样，大卫穿着细麻布的 以弗得，约翰是祭司家族的，所有这些对比，他们停留三个月，然后回到耶路撒冷地区。 The dancing of John the Baptist before the Ark, Mary, just like the dancing before the original Ark, David doing the linen effa, John being of the priestly line, like all of these parallels, and they stay for three months, and then they go back to the area of Jerusalem.
这些不是巧合，对吧？ These are not coincidental, right?
就像，这不仅仅是一个，嗯，这是一个奇怪的巧合。 Like, this is not just like a, huh, that's a weird coincidence.
路加期望你能以犹太人对圣洁的理解和对旧约的知识来阅读这段经文，我认 为许多基督徒都缺乏这两点，并且知道他正在将马利亚描绘成新的约柜。 Luke expects you to be able to read this with a Jewish understanding of holiness and knowledge of the Old Testament, neither of which I think many Christians have, and to know he's depicting Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant.
或者如果你愿意，可以说是新约的约柜，约柜里有天上的吗哪，就是从天上降 下来的粮，耶稣说他就是这粮，还有律法，耶稣完美地履行了律法，还有亚伦 的杖，祭司职分的象征，耶稣是我们伟大的大祭司，这就是约柜里的东西。 Or if you prefer, the Ark of the New Covenant, that the Ark of the Covenant, which is the heavenly manna, the bread come down from heaven, which Jesus says he is, the law, which Jesus fulfills perfectly, the staff of Aaron, the symbol of priesthood, Jesus is our great high priest, that's what's inside the Ark.
所以约柜是这个神圣的、完全圣洁的器皿，如此神圣以至于不能被触摸。 And so the Ark is this sacred, totally holy vessel, so holy that it cannot be touched.
而马利亚，约翰，对不起，路加想让你知道，是这个的实现。 And Mary, John, excuse me, Luke wants you to know, is the fulfillment of that.
他将马利亚比作的那段经文，就是乌撒的故事，她是如此圣洁以至于不能被触摸。 And the passage that he's comparing Mary to is one where you see with the story of Uzzah, she's so holy she cannot be touched.
这就是我们应该对那里的圣洁的理解。 That's the understanding of holiness we should have there.
这就是约柜的圣洁。 That's the holiness of the Ark.
现在我想谈谈圣殿和圣殿门的圣洁。 I want to talk now about the holiness of the temple and of the temple gate.
在先知以西结书的最后九章中，有一段长篇描述新圣殿的内容。 So in the last nine chapters of the prophet Ezekiel, there's this lengthy description of the new temple.
这是在第一座圣殿被毁，第二座圣殿还没有建造的时候。 And this is at the time when the first temple has been destroyed, and the second temple hasn't been built yet.
但这不是第二座圣殿的蓝图，事实上，当第二座圣殿建 成时，它并不符合以西结书中预言所说的那些东西。 But it's not a blueprint for the second temple, and in fact, when the second temple is built, it doesn't match the things that the prophecies in Ezekiel said.
因为这些描述，坦白说，是超自然的，你知道，有水流从圣殿的 一侧流出，它们是活水，意味着是淡水，它能把咸水变成淡水。 Because there are these, frankly, supernatural descriptions, you know, there's streams of water that are flowing from the side of the temple, that they're living water, meaning it's fresh water, and it's turning salt water fresh.
所以它是活水的溪流，可以使死物复活。 So it's streams of living water that can take a dead thing and make it alive.
第二座圣殿的设计者永远无法做到这一点。 The designers of the second temple were never going to be able to do that.
这也不是以西结书中预言真正要表达的。 And that's not what the prophecies in Ezekiel are really about.
在约翰福音第2章，耶稣说，你们拆毁这殿，我三日内要再建立起来。 In John 2, Jesus says, destroy this temple, and in three days, I'll raise it up.
约翰在约翰福音2章21节告诉我们，耶稣这话是以他的身体为殿。 And John tells us in John 2, verse 21, that he spoke of the temple of his body.
这是一个重要的主题，特别是在约翰福音中，耶稣是以西结预言的实现。 This is an important theme, particularly in the Gospel of John, that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Ezekiel prophecies.
所以在约翰福音第7章，他说，人若渴了，可以到我这里来喝。 So a bit later on, in John 7, he says, if anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.
信我的人就如经上所说：从他腹中要流出活水的江河来。 He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.
嗯，旧约并没有说从他心里要流出活水的江河来。 Well, the Old Testament doesn't say out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.
耶稣将圣殿的预言应用到心灵的转变上，就是耶稣，从他在十字架上的肋旁流 出血和水，这些是活水的溪流，通过血和水，通过洗礼，通过圣餐来转化。 Jesus is applying the temple prophecy to the transformation of the heart, that Jesus, from whose side will flow blood and water on the cross, those are the streams of living water that's transforming through the blood and the water, through baptism, through the Eucharist.
这是一种转变。 This is a transformation.
这就是他所说的。 That's what he's talking about.
他说看起来像是关于建筑的预言实际上是关于神居住之处的预言。 He's saying what looked like a prophecy about a building is actually a prophecy of the place of divine dwelling.
首先是耶稣，进而是所有神居住其中的基督徒。 First and foremost, Jesus, by extension, all Christians in whom God is dwelling.
这才是以西结真正在谈论的。 That's what Ezekiel's really talking about.
为什么这很重要？ Why does this matter?
因为在以西结书44章，圣殿周围有一个关闭的门。 Because in Ezekiel 44, around the temple is a gate and it's shut.
天使对以西结说，这门必须关闭，不可开放。 And the angel says to Ezekiel, this gate shall remain shut.
它不可开放，谁也不可由其进入。 It shall not be open and no one shall enter by it.
因为耶和华以色列的神已经由其进入。 For the Lord, the God of Israel has entered by it.
所以它必须关闭。 Therefore it shall remain shut.
这是一个相当清晰的描述，对吧？ It's a pretty clear description, right?
所以早期的基督徒看到这个就说，这是关于童贞女马利亚的。 And so the early Christians looked at this and said, this is about the Virgin Mary.
例如，鲁菲努斯在他对《使徒信经》的评论中说，先知以西结也预言了那种 出生的奇迹方式，比喻性地称马利亚为主的门，即主通过它进入世界的门。 So for instance, Rufinus in his commentary on the Apostles Creed said, the prophet Ezekiel too had predicted the miraculous manner of that birth, calling Mary figuratively the gate of the Lord, the gate namely through which the Lord entered the world.
因为他说，朝东的门必须关闭，不可开放，谁也不可由其进入 ，因为耶和华以色列的神已经由其进入，所以它必须关闭。 For he says the gate which looks toward the east shall be closed and shall not be opened and no one shall pass through it because the Lord, God of Israel, shall pass through it and it shall be closed.
他继续说。 He goes on.
这如此明显地指的是对童贞状态的不可侵犯的保护，也就是说她保持童贞。 What could be said with such evident reference to the inviolate preservation of the virgin condition that is that she remains a virgin.
童贞的门是关闭的。 The gate of virginity was closed.
通过它，耶和华以色列的神进入了。 Through it, the Lord God of Israel entered.
通过它，他从童贞女的子宫来到这个世界，而童贞 状态被完整地保留，童贞女的门永远保持关闭。 Through it, he came forth from the virgin's womb into this world and the virgin state being preserved inviolate, the gate of the virgin remained closed forever.
因此，圣灵被称为主的肉身和他的圣殿的创造者。 Therefore the Holy Ghost is spoken of as the creator of the Lord's flesh and of his temple.
所以这个想法不是关于，你知道，早期基督徒有一些奇怪的性困扰。 So that's the idea that this is not about, you know, early Christians having some weird sexual hangup.
他们意识到，看，以西结预言中圣殿的东门是神圣的。 They realized, look, the east gate of the temple in the Ezekiel prophecy is holy.
神亲自通过了它，所以没有其他人可以触碰它。 God has gone through it personally and so no one else gets to touch it.
并不是说通过门有什么本质上的错误。 It's not that there's anything inherently wrong with going through gates.
而是你不能通过神自己已经通过的门，因为那永远属于他。 It's that you don't go through the gate God himself has gone through because that belongs to him forever.
同样，性行为或生育或类似的事情也没有什么错。 Likewise, there's nothing wrong with sex or childbirth or anything like that.
怀孕是很好的。 Pregnancy is great.
问题是你不能与神的母亲发生性关系。 The problem is you don't have sex with the mother of God.
她不会生其他的孩子。 She doesn't give birth to any other children.
除了耶稣，没有人通过那个门，因为耶稣已经通过了那个门。 No one goes through the gate except Jesus because Jesus has gone through that gate.
这就是这个想法。 That's the idea.
所以，再说一次，性行为没有错，怀孕没有错，生育没有错。 So it's not that there's, again, nothing wrong with sex, nothing wrong with pregnancy, nothing wrong with childbirth.
这些都是很好的事情，都是被赞美的，对吧？ Those are all very good things are all praised, right?
就像新教徒不认为婚姻是圣事。 Like Protestants don't think marriage is a sacrament.
天主教徒认为是。 Catholics do.
说天主教徒既反对性又有太多孩子，这很奇怪。 It's weird to say both the Catholics are anti-sex and have way too many kids.
这种批评中有些地方不匹配。 Something doesn't match up in that critique.
好，让我们继续，因为我们应该看的第三个领域是圣墓。 Well, let's go on from there because a third area we should look is the holy tomb.
所以在马太福音27章，耶稣死后，亚利马太的约瑟取了他的身体，用 干净的细麻布裹好，安放在自己的新坟墓里，就是他凿在磐石里的。 So Matthew 27, after Jesus dies, Joseph of Arimathea takes his body, wraps it in a clean linen shroud and laid it, we're told, in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock.
我们应该问的问题是，为什么对马太来说这是一个新坟墓很重要？ And the question we should be asking is, why does it matter to Matthew that this is a new tomb?
因为约翰也说了同样的话。 Because John says the same thing.
他说耶稣被安放在花园里的一个新坟墓里，是从来没有葬过人的。 He says that Jesus is placed in the garden in a new tomb where no one had ever been laid.
为什么这很重要？ Why does that matter?
嗯，因为基督的坟墓是神圣的。 Well, because the tomb of Christ is holy.
这是神自己死后安息的地方。 Here's a place where God himself rests after death.
没有其他人葬在那里。 No one else is buried there.
在耶稣空的坟墓里埋葬其他人会违背坟墓的神圣性。 It would be contrary to the holiness of the tomb to bury someone else in the empty tomb of Jesus.
同样，把为神分别出来的马利亚的子宫用来生其他孩子也会违背其神圣性。 And likewise, it would be contrary to the holiness of Mary's womb to take this womb set aside for God and have some other child.
就像这会是相反的——再说一次，这并不意味着埋葬有什么错。 Just like it'd be contrary—again, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with burial.
这只是意味着这是奉献给神的。 It just means this is consecrated to God.
在这种理解中，圣洁有什么难以理解的？ What's so hard about like holiness in this understanding?
我们应该看的最后一个地方是圣洁的童贞女。 And the final place we should look are the holy virgins.
现在，这将是最具争议的一个，因为这会让人们想，哦，这些性困扰是怎么回事？ Now, this is going to be the most controversial one, because this is going to make people think, oh, what about all these sexual hangups?
但请听实际的圣经证据。 But listen to the actual biblical evidence.
哥林多前书7章，圣保罗说，我愿你们无所挂虑。 First Corinthians 7, St. Paul says, I want you to be free from anxieties.
没有娶妻的，是为主的事挂虑，想怎样叫主喜悦。 The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord.
但娶了妻的，是为世上的事挂虑，想怎样叫妻子喜悦，他的心就分了。 But the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided.
然后他对女性也说了同样的话。 And then he says the same thing for women.
换句话说，童贞者能够以已婚者实际上无法做到的方式奉献给神，为神分别出来。我不能 像修士那样过极度贫穷、贞洁和顺服的生活，因为这对我的已婚状态来说是不合适的。 In other words, the virgin is able to be consecrated to God, set aside for God in a way the married person practically isn't. I cannot live radical poverty, chastity, and obedience in the way a monk can, because it would be unfitting to my married state.
如果我对妻子说，亲爱的，我卖掉了整个房子，这样 我就可以去过乞丐的生活，这对她来说是不公平的。 It would be an injustice to my wife if I said, honey, I sold the entire house so I can go live as a mendicant.
带上孩子们。 Bring the kids.
我们要去敲门乞食。 We're going to go knock on doors and try to get food.
这对修士来说是神圣的。 That's holy for a monk.
对我来说这不是神圣的。 It's not holy for me.
所以这里描述的圣洁，这种为神分别出来的状态，保罗所描述的这种奉献，是童贞的圣洁。 So the holiness that is described here, this being set aside for God, this consecration that Paul is describing, is a holiness of virginity.
启示录也呼应了这个主题。 And the book of Revelation echoes this theme.
从地上买来的那十四万四千人有一首特别的歌，只有他们能唱。 The 144,000 who have been redeemed from the earth have a special song only they can sing.
我们被告知，这些人未曾沾染妇女，他们原是童身。 And we're told, it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste.
羔羊无论往哪里去，他们都跟随他。 It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.
这些人是从人间买来的，作初熟的果子归与神和羔羊 。在他们口中察不出谎言来，他们是没有瑕疵的。 These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.
这里描绘的是双重的圣洁。 This is a twofold holiness being depicted here.
灵魂的圣洁，灵魂的无瑕疵。 A holiness of soul, the spotlessness of the soul.
灵魂被神居住，所以没有其他东西，即罪，可以住在那里。 The soul is inhabited by God, so no one else, namely sin, gets to dwell there.
同样，身体的圣洁，身体为神的奉献，他们的身体以这样的 方式献给神，以至于与他们发生性关系和结婚是不相容的。 And likewise, a bodily holiness, a bodily consecration for God, that their body is given over to God in such a way that it's incompatible with them having sex and marriage.
再说一次，这并不意味着性和婚姻是邪恶的。 Again, it doesn't mean that sex and marriage are evil.
这只是意味着献给神的东西不能双重使用。 It just means a thing given to God isn't for dual use.
想象一个例子——这只对那些对圣洁有足够感觉的人有效——你永远不会，希望如此 ，把弥撒用的圣杯用于茶会或晚餐，因为这将从根本上违背这个物品的善良和圣洁。 The example to imagine—and this is only going to work for those of you who have enough of a sense of holiness for it to work—is you would never, hopefully, use the chalice from Mass for a tea party or for supper, because it would be radically contrary to the goodness and the holiness of the thing.
这是一种圣经的理解，有些东西是圣洁的，是为神分别出来的， 而童贞是实现这一点的一种方式，是活出这种生活的一种方式。 That is a biblical understanding, that there are some things that are holy, that are set aside for God, and that virginity is one way of doing that, of living that out.
现在，显然，身体上的童贞只是故事的一部分。 Now, obviously, the virginity signified bodily is only part of the story.
你可能是个童贞，但仍然可能是个可怕的罪人。 You could be a virgin and still be a horribly sinful person.
你没有把你的灵魂分别出来，你只是把你的身体分别出来了。 You haven't set your soul aside, you've only set your body aside.
但重点是，为神分别出身体和灵魂是对主的丰富奉献。 But the point is that to set aside body and soul for God is a rich offering to the Lord.
这就是这个想法。 And so that's the idea.
早期基督徒关心马利亚的无罪和她永久的童贞的原 因是因为他们想让你知道她是为神分别出来的。 The reason that the early Christians cared both about Mary's sinlessness and about her perpetual virginity is because they wanted you to know she is set aside for God.
她是奉献给神的。 She is consecrated to God.
她就像圣殿的东门。 She's like the east gate of the temple.
她就像那坟墓。 She's like the tomb.
她就像圣保罗所说的圣洁童贞女。 She's like the holy virgin that St. Paul talks about.
但最重要的是，我们可以说，她就像新约的约柜。 But most of all, we might say, she's like the Ark of the New Covenant.
新约的约柜以独特和彻底的方式为神分别出来，以至于没有其他人可以触碰它。 And the Ark of the New Covenant is uniquely and radically set aside to God in such a way that nobody else touches it.
即使把你的精美瓷器放在约柜里也是完全不恰当的。 It would be totally inappropriate to put even your fine china in the Ark of the Covenant.
同样，把孩子放在蒙福的童贞女马利亚的子宫里也是完全不恰当的。 So likewise, it'd be totally inappropriate to put a child in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
所以希望这很清楚，如果你正确理解婚姻，如果你正确理解圣洁，那么你就会 意识到新教反对马利亚永久童贞的论点在根本和深刻的层面上误解了这两者。 So hopefully that's clear, that if you understand marriage properly, and if you understand holiness properly, then you realize that the Protestant case against the perpetual virginity of Mary just misunderstands both of those in a radical and profound kind of way.
他们没有理解马利亚和约瑟的婚姻中有些奇怪的事情。 That they don't get that there's something weird going on about Mary and Joseph's marriage.
他们没有理解第一世纪犹太教中的婚姻与21世纪西方的婚姻很不相同。 They don't get that marriage in the first century Judaism looks very little like 21st century West.
他们也没有理解马利亚的圣洁在她的永久童贞以及她的无罪中得到体现和实现。 And they don't get that the holiness of Mary is signified and accomplished in her perpetual virginity as well as in her sinlessness.
所以我希望这说得通。 So I hope that makes sense.
我希望这有帮助。 I hope that helps.
我知道今天的信息量很大，但我希望它能让你以新的视角看待这些经 文，因为这是那些今天对很多人来说很明显马利亚不是永久童贞的领 域之一，但对早期基督徒来说，她是永久童贞这一点更加明显。 I know that was a lot of information today, but I'm hoping that it lets you see these passages in a new light, because this is one of those areas where it's very obvious today to so many people that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, but it was even more obvious to the early Christians that she was.
如果我们想理解这种脱节，我们必须发现我们在理解圣经时失去了什么。 And if we want to understand that disjuncture, we have to uncover what we've lost in our understanding of the Bible.
我是乔·赫什迈尔，这里是无耻教皇党。 For Shameless Potpourri, I'm Joe Heschmeier.
非常感谢，愿神祝福你。 Thank you so much, and God bless you.
感谢收听无耻教皇党，这是天主教答疑播客网络的一个节目。 Thank you for listening to Shameless Potpourri, a production of the Catholic Answers Podcast Network.
你可以访问catholicanswerspodcast.com找到更多精彩节目 You can find more great shows by visiting catholicanswerspodcast.com
或者在你收听播客的地方搜索天主教答疑。 or search Catholic Answers wherever you listen to podcasts.