大家好，欢迎回到《无耻大杂烩》。 Hi and welcome back to Shameless Potpourri.
我是天主教答疑节目的Joe Heschmeyer，今天我想 探讨一个很受关注的问题：马利亚在耶稣诞生后是否仍是童贞女。 I'm Joe Heschmeyer of Catholic Answers, and I want to explore a popular question about whether or not Mary was a virgin after the birth of Jesus.
天主教徒和大多数新教徒都同意马利亚在领报时是童贞女，在耶稣诞生时也是童贞女。 Catholics and most Protestants agree Mary was a virgin at the time of the Annunciation; she was a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth.
但问题是：之后她还是童贞女吗？ But there's this question: Was she a virgin after?
实际上，很多新教徒认为天主教徒是在杜撰，认为 马利亚永远保持童贞这种说法是圣经之外的想法。 In fact, a lot of Protestants think Catholics are just kind of making this up, that it's some kind of extra-biblical idea that Mary remained perpetually a virgin.
你可能不知道，这不仅是天主教徒的观点，也是东正 教徒的观点，而且更是早期基督徒普遍持有的观点。 And maybe you're unaware that this is the view not only of Catholics but of Orthodox Christians and overwhelmingly of the early Christians as well.
所以我想探讨为什么会这样，以及这揭示了我们解读圣 经的不同方式，因为我认为这才是真正的关键所在。 So I want to explore kind of why that is and what this reveals about the divergent ways in which we read the Bible, because I think that's what this really reveals.
这是那种如果你只是简单地从表面理解圣经，就会得出一种答案的教义。 This is one of those doctrines where if you take the simplistic, surface-level reading of Scripture, you're going to get one answer.
但如果你更深入地思考和研读，就会得出另一种答案。 And if you read it in a deeper and more ponderous way, you get a different one.
这样的问题还不止这一个。 And that's not the only issue like this.
比如说，在约翰福音第14章，耶稣说：父是比我大的。好！ You know, for instance, in John 14, Jesus says, The Father is greater than I. Great!
如果你否认三位一体，这就是你会引用的经文，对吧？ And so if you deny the Trinity, this is the verse you go to, right?
你就说，耶稣说父比我大，这有什么难理解的？ You just say, Jesus says the Father is greater than I. How hard is that to understand?
这就是一种很表面的理解。 And you take a really surface-level understanding of it.
如果你想要真正明白这句话的含义，你就必须深入研究，真正思考：这到底是什么意思？ If you want the right answer of what this means, you have to dig in and really say, What is meant by this?
我自己带着什么预设，认为耶稣是这个意思，而实际上祂可能是另一个意思？ And what assumptions am I bringing to the table where I'm assuming Jesus means one thing, and maybe He means something different?
所以我的意思是：这不仅仅是关于马利亚永贞的问题，尽管这个问题很重要。 So that's what I mean: this isn't just a question about Mary's perpetual virginity, as important as that is.
但我们会看到，这反映出我们对性的理解有偏差，同时也反映在对婚姻和圣洁的理解上。 But as we'll see, it points to how we have kind of a broken understanding of sex, but also of marriage and of holiness.
这就是我想要说明的。 That's what I hope to kind of show.
所以与其采用表面的解读，我建议我们应该用马利亚式的方式来读经。 And so instead of taking that surface-level reading, I would suggest we should read Scripture in a Marian sort of way.
这是什么意思呢？ What do I mean by that?
在路加福音第二章十九节，圣路加说马利亚却把这一切的事存在心里，反复思想。 In the Gospel of Luke, in Luke 2, verse 19, St. Luke says that Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart.
也就是说，她经历这些事，然后细细咀嚼，思考，默想。 That is, she witnesses these events, but then she chews on them; she thinks about them; she ponders them.
这正是我们被鼓励用来理解新约奥秘的方式——不是停留在表面理解，而是要深入探究。 And it's in that way that we're actually encouraged to approach the mysteries of the New Testament—not just to take the surface-level reading, but to actually go deeper.
如果你读新约，你会一次又一次地看到，那些只 在表面理解耶稣的人都误解了祂，理解错了。 If you read the New Testament, you'll see over and over and over again that the people who interpret Jesus at that surface level misunderstand Him; they get Him wrong.
我想说，这里正是发生了同样的情况。 And I want to suggest that's exactly what's going on here.
现在，我认为值得一提的另一个方面是早期基督徒。 Now, another place I think is worth going is, as I've mentioned, the early Christians.
在公元四世纪，一个叫赫尔维丢的人主张马利亚和约 瑟后来又生了孩子——这就是现今新教的标准立场。 In the 300s, a guy by the name of Helvidius argued that Mary and Joseph continued to have children—the standard Protestant position.
圣耶柔米在一部名为《驳赫尔维丢》或称《马利亚永贞》的著作中回应了他。 St. Jerome replies to him in a work called Against Helvidius, or sometimes called The Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
这篇导言非常尖锐，措辞很犀利。 The introduction is really biting; it's really sharp.
他说：「不久前有一些弟兄请我回应一个叫赫尔维丢的人写的小册子。」 He says, I was requested by certain of the brethren not long ago to reply to a pamphlet written by one Helvidius.
我之所以推迟回应，不是因为维护真理和驳斥一个几乎没有学问的无 知之人有多难，而是因为我担心我的回应会让人觉得他值得一驳。 I've deferred from doing so not because it is a difficult matter to maintain the truth and refute an ignorant bore who has scarce known the first glimmer of learning, but because I was afraid my reply might make him appear worth defeating.
这话说得真够尖锐的。 Now, this is sharp.
耶柔米向来是直言不讳的，但这应该让那些不相信马利亚永贞的新教徒稍作思考。 Jerome is not known for pulling punches, but it should give any Protestants who believe that Mary was not a perpetual virgin a little bit of pause.
原因是：耶柔米住在伯利恒。 Here's why: Jerome lived in Bethlehem.
他精通希腊文、希伯来文和拉丁文。 He was fluent in Greek, Hebrew, and Latin.
他是拉丁文武加大译本的主要翻译者。 He is the chief translator of the Latin Vulgate.
他对犹太教的了解超过几乎所有古代的外邦基督徒。 He knew Judaism better than almost any Gentile Christian of antiquity.
所以他认为马利亚永贞是如此明显的事实，以至于他觉得持不同观点的人简直可笑。 And so he takes it as so glaringly obvious that Mary was perpetually a virgin that he finds it laughable that anyone would take a different view.
显然，他并不是唯一这样想的，对吧？ And clearly, he's not alone in this, right?
当时的其他基督徒对赫尔维丢写的小册子感到如此震惊，以至于他们写信请耶柔米回应。 The other Christians of his day are so scandalized by Helvidius writing up pamphlets that they write to Jerome asking him to reply.
这不是标准观点；你要知道，新教的观点根本不是标准观点。 This is not the standard view; you know, the Protestant view is not the standard view at all.
这不是普通基督徒中的标准观点；也不是当时那些 懂古代语言、熟悉犹太文化的学者们的标准观点。 And it's not the standard view among ordinary Christians; it's not the standard view among scholars of the day who understand the ancient languages and who are familiar with Jewish culture.
所以这一切都应该让现代读者问自己：「是否可能耶柔米，这位住在伯利恒、住在耶稣诞生 的洞穴里、通晓希伯来文和犹太文献的人，对古代犹太教和终身童贞的理解比我更深？」 And so all of that should lead the modern reader to ask: Is it possible that Jerome, who lives in Bethlehem, in the cave where Jesus is born, and who knows Hebrew and Jewish sources, maybe knows something I don't about ancient Judaism and about perpetual virginity?
我想我们接下来会看到，情况正是如此。 I think we're going to see that that's exactly the case.
但在此之前，我想先梳理一下新教徒通常为什么不相信马 利亚永贞的论据，并一一回应，然后再阐述支持的论据。 But to get there, I want to first go through the arguments for why Protestants don't typically believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary and kind of answer those, and then lay out the positive case.
我要先从所有让你认为马利亚和约瑟还有其他孩子的理由说起。 I'm going to start with all of the reasons you might think Mary and Joseph have other children.
这些是反对马利亚永贞的论据，我要讨论的是我听过的论据，包括最近听到的。 So this is the case against Mary's perpetual virginity, and I'm going off of the arguments I've heard, including the arguments I've heard recently.
可能还有其他论据，但我尽力收集了最普遍和最有力的论据。 There may be other ones out there, but I've done my best to try to capture the popular arguments and the best arguments.
第一个是在马太福音第一章，在圣约瑟的梦中，天使说：「大卫的子孙约瑟 ，不要怕，只管娶过你的妻子马利亚来，因她所怀的孕是从圣灵来的。」 The first is that in Matthew 1, in the dream of St. Joseph, the angel says, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary, your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
有人认为这里的"娶"是性关系的委婉说法。 And so the idea is that take is a euphemism for sex.
对此的回答很简单：不是的。 The answer to that is just: it's not.
这是对这段经文的误解。 That is a misunderstanding of the passage.
这里的"娶"实际上指的是尼苏因，也就是犹太婚姻的第二阶段。 Taking is actually about the Nisuin, which is the second stage of a Jewish marriage.
如果你不知道这是什么意思，那太好了！ If you don't know what that means, well, good!
这正是这期播客后半部分要讲的内容。 That's what the second half of this podcast is all about.
这里的"娶"是一个特定的概念，我们必须从犹太人 的角度来理解，而不是用我们自己对这些词的理解。 The taking going on here is a specific idea we have to understand on Jewish terms and not apply our own kind of understanding of those words.
这很简单明了。 So that's simple enough.
但接下来在第24节，约瑟从梦中醒来，我们被告知他遵照主的使者所吩咐的去行。 But then after that, in verse 24, Joseph gets up from the dream, and we're told he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him.
他就娶了妻子，只是没有和她同房，等她生了儿子。 He took his wife but knew her not until she had borne a son.
现在，娶妻并不是性关系的委婉说法；认识妻子才是性关系的委婉说法。 Now, taking his wife is not a sexual euphemism; knowing his wife is a sexual euphemism.
你知道，在创世记第四章，亚当与夏娃同房，她就生了该隐，对吧？ You know, Adam knew Eve, and she gave birth to Cain in Genesis 4, right?
这种认识就是指肉体的结合。 It's that knowing—that carnal knowledge.
这是在说性关系。 This is about sex.
所以这立即告诉我们，在马太看来，娶和同房显然是两回事。 So that should immediately tell us, okay, well, taking and knowing are clearly something different to Matthew.
那么他说的娶是什么意思？ So what does he mean by taking?
这个我们待会再说。 Again, we'll get back to that.
但经上说他没有和她同房，等她生了儿子。 But then he knew her not until she had borne a son.
好，这看起来很简单，对吧？ Okay, that seems simple enough, right?
等到就是等到。 Until means until.
父比我大——还有什么比这更容易理解的呢，对吧？ The Father is greater than I—what could be easier than that, right?
但是，事实并非如此，因为无论是在英语还是希腊语中 ，'等到'既可以表示直到某个时间点然后就改变， Well, again, it doesn't really work that way because until, both in English and in Greek, can mean up to a certain point but not after.
也可以仅仅表示到这个时间点为止。 Or it can just mean to this point.
我举个例子：如果我说，我想去参加那个派对，但从我到那里直到我离开，音乐一直很 吵，我并不是在暗示他们是在我到达时才开始放音乐，或是在我离开时就关掉音乐。 I'll give you an example: If I say, I tried to go to that party, but the music was blaring from the time I got there until the time I left, I'm not suggesting that they started the music when I got there or turned it off when I left.
这里的'从'和'直到'是在叙述中表示特定的 时间点，并不是说'直到'之后情况就改变了。 The from and until are referring to a specific point relative to the narrative; they're not actually saying the condition stopped holding after the until.
或者举个圣经的例子，在哥林多前书中说，基督 必要作王，等他把一切仇敌都放在他的脚下。 Or to take a biblical example, in 1 Corinthians, we're told that Jesus must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
这是否意味着基督把仇敌放在脚下之后就不作王了？ Does that mean Jesus doesn't reign after His enemies are put under His feet?
不，'等到'并不是这个意思。 No, until doesn't mean that.
所以假设'等到'总是意味着仅仅到某个时间点为 止然后就结束，这种理解并不一定适用于这里。 So assuming that until always means only up to this point and then not after is applying a connotation of until that doesn't necessarily hold here.
它可能有这个意思，但根据上下文往往不是。如果你告诉孩子们'在我 回来之前要乖'，你并不是在告诉他们'我回来后就可以调皮了'。 It can mean that, but contextually it often doesn't. If you tell your kids, Be good until I get back, you're not telling them, I want you to misbehave when I return.
这根本不是这个意思。 It just doesn't mean that.
在希腊文中也是一样。 And the same is true in Greek.
那么我们应该问，圣马太到底想说什么？ So we should be asking, well, what is St. Matthew saying then?
为什么他要说'等到'生子？ Why does he say until the birth?
如果他不是想说马利亚和约瑟在圣诞节那天或耶稣出生后有性关 系，为什么他要特别指出从那时到耶稣出生期间他们没有同房？ If he's not trying to say Mary and Joseph had sex on Christmas or that they had sex sometime after Jesus was born, why would he specify that they didn't have sex from this moment until Jesus was born?
其实马太确实告诉了我们他想说什么。 Well, it turns out Matthew actually tells us what he's saying.
在马太福音1:24-25，如我们所说，他没有和她同房，等她生了儿子。 So in Matthew 1:24-25, as we said, he knew her not until she had borne a son.
就在这之前，在22-23节，他解释说，这一切的事成就，是要应验主借先知所说的话。 Well, right before that, in verses 22 and 23, he explains, This took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet.
这就是以赛亚的预言：必有童女怀孕生子，人要称他的名为以马内利。 This is the prophecy from Isaiah: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.
现在，我们常常把这看作是一件事：就是童女马利亚会怀孕生子。 Now, we often think of that just as one thing: that the Virgin Mary will get pregnant and have a baby.
但这是相隔九个月的两个不同时刻。 But those are two different moments, nine months apart.
你知道，从圣诞节算起，在圣诞节前九个月，马利亚在 领报时和圣诞节时都必须是童贞女，这预言才算应验。 You know, if you get Christmas, you get nine months before Christmas that Mary has to be a virgin both at the moment of the Annunciation and at the moment of Christmas for this prophecy to be fulfilled.
这包含两个要点：童贞女怀孕和童贞女生子。 There are two prongs to it: a virgin conception and a virgin birth.
如果马利亚在怀孕时是童贞女，但在那之后到圣诞节期间与约瑟同房，这预言就不算应验。 If Mary is a virgin when she conceives Jesus but then goes on to have sex with Joseph sometime between then and Christmas, the prophecy would not be fulfilled.
所以马太根本不是在试图告诉我们关于马利亚和约瑟婚姻生活的任何事。 And so Matthew is not trying to tell us anything at all about the sex life of Mary and Joseph one way or the other.
他既不是要证明马利亚永贞，也不是要否认马利亚永贞。 He's not trying to prove Mary's perpetual virginity; he's not trying to deny Mary's perpetual virginity.
从上下文看，这里的'等到'很明显与前面的经文关于怀孕和生产有关。 In context, the until here is very clearly tied to the preceding verse that this is about conceiving and bearing.
从马利亚在腹中怀了耶稣的那一刻直到耶稣诞生的那一刻，马利亚都是童贞女。 From the moment of Mary's conception of Jesus in her womb until the moment of Jesus' birth, Mary is a virgin.
这就是他想说的全部。 That's all he's trying to say.
就是这样。 That's it.
这完全没有说之后发生了什么。 It tells us nothing about what happens after.
所以这个'等到'的论据只是断章取义，用肤浅的方式解读，强求'等到'一 定要表达某种意思，而这个意思无论在希腊文还是英文中都不一定是这样的。 So the until argument is just ripping a verse out of context, reading it in a superficial way, and demanding that until means something it doesn't necessarily mean, again, either in Greek or in English.
这就像对'父比我大'的另一种解读。你只看到了表面意思，却完全脱离了上下文。 It's another version of doing the Father is greater than I. You've got the surface reading, but you've ripped it completely out of context.
这显示对圣经背景和神学含义都缺乏理解。 You have no understanding of the biblical context or the theological meaning.
好，所以到目前为止，这个'等到'的论据并不 能证明相反的观点；它不能证明新教徒是错的。 Okay, so so far, the until argument doesn't really prove the opposite; it doesn't prove Protestants are wrong.
它实际上并不是他们想要表达的意思。 It just doesn't actually mean the thing they're trying to make it mean.
把这段经文理解为马太在论证马利亚和约瑟在耶稣出生后又生了 孩子，这是在强行解读他在这段经文中明显不是要表达的意思。 To read this as Matthew arguing that Mary and Joseph have children after Jesus' birth is to try to read him as saying something he very clearly is not trying to say in the context of the passage.
但似乎确实有证据指向其他孩子，对吧？ But there does seem to be positive evidence that points to other kids, right?
就是耶稣的兄弟们。 The brothers or brethren of Jesus.
比如在马可福音第三章，我们被告知耶稣的母亲和他的弟兄来 了，众人对他说：「看哪，你母亲和你弟兄在外边找你。」 So, for instance, in Mark 3, we're told that Jesus' mother and His brethren came, and the crowd says, Your mother and your brethren are outside asking for you.
好，这很清楚。 Great, clear enough.
在马可福音第六章，众人说：「这不是那木匠吗？不是 马利亚的儿子，雅各、约西、犹大、西门的长兄吗？」 In Mark 6, the crowd says, Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joseph and Judah and Simon?
「他妹妹们不也是在我们这里吗？」 And are not His sisters here with us?
所以听起来耶稣有很多兄弟姐妹——至少四个兄弟，还有不知道多少个姐妹，对吧？ So it sounds like Jesus has a ton of siblings—at least four brothers; who knows how many sisters, right?
这么多兄弟姐妹都是马利亚和约瑟后来生的，特 别是考虑到当耶稣成年时约瑟似乎已经去世了。 That's a lot of siblings that Mary and Joseph go on to have, particularly since Joseph appears to be dead by the time Jesus reaches adulthood.
这很令人惊讶。 It's remarkable.
事实上，我们看到耶稣十二岁时，耶稣、马利亚和约瑟上圣殿， 没有提到任何兄弟姐妹。当他三十岁时，约瑟已经去世，但在这 十八年的空档期间，显然马利亚和约瑟生了很多孩子，对吧？ In fact, we find Jesus, Mary, and Joseph with no mention of siblings going up to the temple when Jesus is 12. When He's 30, Joseph is dead, but sometime in that 18-year gap, apparently, Mary and Joseph had a ton of kids, right?
而且很好，我们甚至知道他们的名字：雅各、约西、犹大和西门。 And it's great because we even know their names: James, Joseph, Judah, and Simon.
这里有什么问题呢？ And what's the problem with this?
嗯，我们又一次是用二十一世纪英语使用者的耳朵 来理解，而不是用犹太人的耳朵或眼睛来理解。 Well, again, we're reading this through modern 21st-century English-speaking ears and not reading it through Jewish ears or Jewish eyes.
我来读创世记第14章。我用英王钦定本是因为它表达得更清楚。 I guess I'm reading in Genesis 14. I'm using the KJV because it's actually clearer.
亚伯拉罕和罗得被描述为叔侄关系，却也被称为弟兄。 Abraham and Lot are described as uncle and nephew, and his brothers.
在第12节说：「他们掳了住在所多玛的亚伯拉罕的侄儿罗得。」 So in verse 12, it says, They took Lot, Abraham's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom.
然后两节之后，当亚伯拉罕听见他的弟兄被掳去，人们就说：「看，圣经自相矛盾了！」 And then two verses later, when Abraham heard that his brother was taken captive, people say, Oh, look at that biblical contradiction!
罗得到底是他的侄儿还是他的弟兄？ Is Lot his nephew or his brother?
其实，他是他的弟兄——对不起，是他的侄儿—— 但如果你明白这里'弟兄'的含义，两者都对。 Well, it's his brother—excuse me, it's his nephew—but it's both if you understand what brother means here.
这里的'弟兄'包含了一系列亲属关系。 That brother means a whole range of relations.
事实上，我之所以用英王钦定本，是因为许多现代圣经把第二次出现的'弟兄'翻译成' 亲属'，我觉得这有点问题，因为原文就是'弟兄'，只是在这里的意思是'亲属'。 In fact, the reason I'm using the KJV here is that many modern Bibles will translate that second use of brother just as kinsman, which is a little bit shady, I think, because the word is just brother, but it means kinsman here.
它可以指任何亲近的亲属。 It could just mean any kind of close relative.
就像你的高祖父也只是称为父亲一样，你知道，'亚伯拉罕我们的 父'这样的说法到处都是；他们并不是真的指他就是他们的父亲。 So just as like your great-great-great-great-great-grandfather is just your father, you know, Father Abraham is used all over; they don't literally mean he is one generation removed from them.
同样，你的堂兄弟、叔叔、侄子——这些都可以称为你的弟兄。 So likewise, your cousin, your uncle, your nephew—those are all your brother.
古希伯来语中的家庭称谓词汇很有限，所以如果你不想一直说'你弟兄 的儿子'，你可以直接说'弟兄'，从上下文我们就能明白你的意思。 There's a very limited familial vocabulary in ancient Hebrew, and so if you don't want to say constantly your brother's son, you can just say brother, and contextually we get what you mean.
或者说'亲属'——在这里是一个意思。 Or kinsman—it means the same thing here.
希望这说得够清楚了。 So hopefully that's clear.
我们并不是说每次提到'弟兄'都是指亲生兄弟。 We're not saying every time brother comes up that it's literally a biological brother.
这并不是说它一定不是，但这应该让我们停下来想一想。 Now, that doesn't mean that it's not, but it should give us some pause.
所以，耶稣的弟兄们——回到马可福音第六章——还记得这些弟兄的名字吗？ So, Jesus' brothers—going back to Mark 6—remember the brothers' names?
雅各、约西、犹大和西门？ James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon?
在马可福音第十五章，当马可描述钉十字架的场景时，他告诉我们有些妇女 远远地观看，其中有抹大拉的马利亚，和雅各小子并约西的母亲马利亚。 Well, in Mark 15, when Mark is describing the crucifixion, he tells us there were some women who were looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph.
等一下！ Hold on a second!
雅各和约西有另一个母亲——另一个马利亚，在约 翰福音的平行记载中被称为革罗罢的妻子马利亚。 James and Joseph have a different mom—the other Mary, who in the parallel account in John's Gospel is listed as Mary the wife of Clopas.
这应该让我们停下来思考。 So this should give us some pause.
首先，无论你是新教徒还是天主教徒，你都不会认为这里的弟兄是字面意思的兄弟。 First of all, whether you're Protestant or Catholic, you don't think brother means brother here literally.
你不会认为这些是耶稣的亲兄弟。 You don't think these are the full brothers of Jesus.
你要么认为他们是他的同父异母兄弟，要么是继兄弟，要么是堂兄弟。 You either think they're His half-brothers, His step-brothers, or His cousins.
除非否认马利亚的童贞，否认耶稣是由童贞女所生 ，否则没有人会相信雅各和约西是耶稣的亲兄弟。 But nobody—unless they deny the virginity of Mary, unless they deny that Jesus is virgin-born—nobody believes that James and Joseph are full brothers of Jesus.
所以唯一的问题是：这里所说的弟兄指的是什么更复杂的亲属关系？ So the only question is: what more complicated relationship is being referred to here as brother?
可能是堂兄弟，可能是同父异母兄弟，可能是继兄弟。 It could be cousin, it could be half-brother, it could be step-brother.
好，马可福音第十五章给了我们线索，雅各和约西至少有一个不同的母亲，就是马利亚。 Well, we're given the clue in Mark 15 that James and Joseph at least have a different mom, Mary.
然后约翰福音第十九章给了我们另一个线索，这个马利亚是革罗罢的妻子。 And then we're given the clue in John 19 that this other Mary is the wife of Clopas.
到目前为止，圣经的证据——四世纪的优西比乌有最早的教会历史之一。 Now, so far, the biblical evidence—Eusebius in the 4th century has one of the earliest church histories.
这本书就叫《教会历史》，他引用了一个更早的来源希革西 普，这个来源现在大部分都失传了，但他是二世纪的人。 It's just called Church History, and he quotes an earlier source, Hegesippus, who is mostly lost to us today, but he's from the second century.
希革西普记载革罗罢是约瑟的兄弟。 Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.
这是在耶路撒冷教会的背景下，优西比乌说耶路撒冷教会一致 同意，宣布福音书中提到的革罗罢的儿子西面配得主教之位。 This is in the context of the Church in Jerusalem, and Eusebius says that the Church in Jerusalem, with one consent, pronounced Simeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention, to be worthy of the episcopal throne.
他们选择西面，或称西门，就是耶稣的这些弟兄中的一个， 他是革罗罢和马利亚的儿子，作为耶路撒冷的主教之一。 They chose Simeon, or Simon, one of these other brothers of Jesus, who is the son of Clopas and Mary, as one of the bishops of Jerusalem.
他们说他是救主的表兄弟，因为希革西普记载革罗罢是约瑟的兄弟。 He was a cousin, as they say, of the Savior, for Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.
你不必接受这部分；这部分不是默感的圣经，但它确实解释了为什么如 果他们是堂兄弟——就像亚伯拉罕和罗得是叔侄——也被称为弟兄。 So you don't have to take that part; that part's not inspired Scripture, but it certainly makes sense of the evidence that if they're cousins—just like Abraham and Lot, uncle and nephew—they're called brothers.
那么，雅各、约西、西门和所有这些女子，还有其他人——这些都是堂亲。 Well, James, Joseph, Simon, all these girls, whoever else—these are all cousins.
这也解释了为什么在耶稣婴孩时期我们看不到任何人，我们没 看到任何作为兄弟姐妹的人和耶稣一起上耶路撒冷的圣殿。 It also makes sense of why there are so many of them when we don't see anybody in Jesus' infancy; we don't see anybody with Jesus as a sibling going up to the temple in Jerusalem.
这就是关于弟兄的论据。 So that's the brothers' argument.
这可能意味着他有亲兄弟，但实际上不一定是这个意思，也不必须是这个意思。 It could mean that He has biological brothers, but it doesn't actually mean that or doesn't require that meaning.
下一个是预言性的论据。 The next one is a prophetic argument.
在诗篇六十九篇八节说：「我向弟兄像外人，向我母亲的儿女像外邦人。」 In Psalm 69, verse 8, it says, I've become a stranger to my brethren and an alien to my mother's sons.
于是这个论据说：啊哈！ And so the argument says, Aha!
看，这是个巧妙的论据，因为它说，好吧，'弟兄'不一定意味着他们 是你母亲的孩子，但在诗篇六十九篇八节，明确说'我母亲的儿女'。 See, it's a clever argument because it says, okay, sure, 'brethren' doesn't have to mean that they're your mother's children, but in Psalm 69, verse 8, it clearly says 'my mother's sons.'
这里的问题是你在用预言性的弥赛亚诗篇，却过于字面化地理解。 The problem here is that you're using a prophetic messianic psalm and just taking it extremely literally.
这样解读行不通的原因是：因为同一诗篇第五节说： 「神啊，我的愚昧你原知道；我的罪愆不能隐瞒。」 And here's why that doesn't work: because in verse 5 of the same psalm, it says, O God, you know my folly; the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.
所以如果你要说这一切都字面上适用于耶稣，你就 不得不说耶稣真的犯了罪，这显然是说不通的。 So if you're going to just say all of this applies literally to Jesus, you're going to have to also say Jesus literally sinned, and that doesn't work.
所以这里的母亲很可能是耶路撒冷，可能是以色列，也可能就是指诗人本人。 So the mother here could easily be Jerusalem, could be Israel, could just be the psalmist.
预言性诗篇并非每一部分都要字面地应用在耶稣身上。 Not every part of a prophetic psalm literally applies to Jesus.
所以这是对预言性论证的错误运用。 So this is just a bad use of prophetic kind of argumentation.
我要说，这不是一个有效的旧约论据。 This is, I would say, not a valid argument from the Old Testament.
好，总结一下，我还听过另外三个论据。 Okay, just kind of wrapping this up, there are three other arguments I've sometimes heard.
第一个是，你知道，婚内性关系没有什么错。 The first is, you know, There's nothing wrong with marital sex.
嗯，当然，没人说有错，对吧？ Well, sure, nobody said there was, right?
我们相信婚姻是圣事，这圣事是通过性关系来完成的。 We believe marriage is a sacrament and that this sacrament is consummated through sex.
这是C.S.路易斯所说的'布尔维主义'的一个例子。 So this is an example of what C.S. Lewis calls bulverism.
用路易斯的话说：你必须先证明一个人是错的，然后才能开始解释为什么他是错的。 In Lewis's words, You must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he's wrong.
你不能就说：啊哈！ You can't just say, Aha!
你之所以这么想，是因为你对性有偏见。 Well, you just think that because you're hung up about sex.
不是这样的，我们这么想是因为圣经实际上指向的方向与你的假设不同。 It's like, no, no, we think that because Scripture actually points in a different direction than your assumption.
第二个剩下的论据是，如果他们没有性关系，那就不是真正的婚姻。 The second kind of remaining argument is, Well, if they didn't have sex, it wasn't a real marriage.
这是错误的。 Well, this is false.
一旦我们了解犹太人的背景，就会发现我们在西方基督教语 境中理解的婚姻完成，与犹太婚礼的运作方式是不同的。 Once we get into the Jewish context, we'll see that consummation, in the sense that we think of it in the West in the Christian context, is not the way it worked for Jewish weddings.
对犹太婚礼来说，完婚实际上是指两家的结合。 Consummation for a Jewish wedding was actually the coming together of houses.
尼苏因，就是迎娶女子，把她带到自己的屋檐下——这才是完婚的标志。 The Nisuin, the carrying of the woman, bringing her under your roof—that's what consummated the marriage.
实际上在这之前就可以有性关系，我们接下来会看到这点。 You could actually have sex before that, as we're going to see.
所以古代犹太教中的婚姻完成与现代基督教的理解方式不同，因此这个论据不成立。 So marital consummation doesn't work the same way in ancient Judaism as it does in modern Christianity, and so that argument doesn't work.
这也不是真的；即使在完婚之前，你们仍然是真正的婚姻。 It also isn't really true; you still have a real marriage even prior to consummation.
但我们不会深入讨论批准与完婚的所有细节。 But we're not going to get into all of the ratification versus consummation.
当神父说你们是夫妻时，你们就真的是夫妻了，即使婚姻还没有完成。 When the priest says, You're man and wife, you really are man and wife even though the marriage hasn't been consummated.
最后一个论据是，约瑟娶了马利亚，之后才发现不能和她同房，这太残忍了。 Then the final argument is, It would be cruel for Joseph to get married to Mary only to find out afterwards that he couldn't have sex with her.
约瑟被，你知道，这里有一个欺骗和转换。 Joseph has been, you know, there's a bait and switch here.
老实说，这个论据让我感到厌恶，因为我认为这是一种不健康的态度。 And that argument grosses me out, to be honest, because I think it's an unhealthy attitude.
你知道，如果你结婚后，你的妻子瘫痪了或生病了，或有某 种医疗状况导致不能正常同房，你会觉得被神亏待了吗？ You know, if you get married and then your wife is paralyzed or sick or has some medical condition where you can't have sex regularly, do you feel like deprived by God?
你会觉得神亏待了你吗？ Do you feel like God's done you an injustice?
这看起来是对女性、对婚姻和对性的一种非常不健康的态度 ——即使在婚姻中，你也不是想要性关系就一定要得到。 It just seems like a really unhealthy attitude towards women, towards marriage, and towards sex—that you're not just entitled to sex on demand even when you're married.
事情根本不是这样运作的。 It just doesn't work that way.
而且，我们接下来会看到，这假设约瑟不知道马利 亚将永远保持童贞，我认为这不是一个好的假设。 But additionally, as we're going to see, this assumes that Joseph didn't know Mary was going to perpetually be a virgin, which is not, I think, a good assumption.
好，到目前为止我只是在处理反对意见，你可能会说这不是一个很有说服力的论证。 Okay, so far I've only handled objections, and you might say this is not a very persuasive case.
嗯，到目前为止本来就不是要说服你。 Well, so far it isn't meant to be.
我只是在说反对的论据并不能有力地证明相反的观点。 I'm just saying the arguments against don't persuasively prove the contrary.
那么让我们来看看支持的论据——有什么论据支持马利亚永远保持童贞？ So let's look at the arguments for—what are the arguments in favor of Mary being perpetually a virgin?
要讨论这个，我认为我们需要做几件事。 To get there, I think we've got to do a couple of things.
首先我们要解析圣经对婚姻的看法。 The first is we have to unpack the biblical view of marriage.
我的意思是：在第一世纪的犹太背景下，婚姻是什么样子的？ By this, I just mean: what did marriage look like in the first century in a Jewish context?
因为它和今天的样子很不一样。 Because it doesn't really look like what it looks like today.
它甚至和今天犹太人的婚姻都不一样，更不用说基督教的婚姻了。 It doesn't even look like what it looks like today in a Jewish context, much less a Christian one.
探讨这个问题的一个方式是问：马利亚是未婚生子吗？ A way of exploring this question would be to ask the question: Was Mary an unwed mother?
很多人会说，是啊，当然是！ A lot of people will say, Yeah, of course she was!
圣经不是明确说了吗？ Doesn't it say that explicitly in the Bible?
你知道，她没有丈夫就怀孕了。 You know, she doesn't have a husband and she gets pregnant.
那这有什么问题呢？ Well, what's the problem with that?
问题是耶稣在圣殿里——这就是问题所在。 Well, Jesus in the temple—that's the problem.
我们待会还会从另一个角度讨论耶稣在圣殿的问题，但现在请注意申命记二十三章 说：「私生子不可入耶和华的会；他的子孙，直到十代，也不可入耶和华的会。」 We're going to get back to a different dimension of Jesus in the temple, but for now, just notice that in Deuteronomy 23, it says, No bastard shall enter the assembly of the Lord; even through the tenth generation, none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord.
换句话说，如果你是婚外所生，你就不能进入圣殿。 In other words, if you are conceived out of wedlock, you were not allowed in the temple.
所以那些说马利亚是未婚生子的人等于是在说耶稣是私生子。 And so the people saying Mary is an unwed mother are saying Jesus is a bastard.
如果你说耶稣是私生子，那他就不能进入圣殿。 And if you say Jesus is a bastard, then he's not allowed in the temple.
而且，耶稣的对手一定会很乐意用这点来攻击他。 And certainly, Jesus' opponents would have loved a chance to throw that at him.
如果耶稣不能进入圣殿，你不觉得法利赛人会提出这一点吗？ If Jesus wasn't allowed in the temple, you don't think the Pharisees would have brought that up?
你不觉得撒都该人会提到这一点吗？ You don't think the Sadducees would have mentioned that?
但事实上，在马太福音二十六章，当耶稣被捕时，在第5 5节，他指出：「你们带着刀棒出来拿我，如同拿强盗。 But in fact, in Matthew 26, when Jesus is being arrested, in verse 55, He points out, You've come out as against a robber with clubs and swords to capture me.
我天天坐在殿里教训人，你们并没有拿我。」 Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me.
所以耶稣经常在圣殿里，如果他是婚外所生或婚外所孕，这是不可能的。 So Jesus is in the temple all the time, which isn't possible if He was born out of wedlock or conceived out of wedlock.
事情不是这样的。 It doesn't work like that.
所以这应该让我们问：我们是如何误解犹太婚礼的？ So that should make us ask: How are we misunderstanding Jewish weddings?
因为显然，按我们对路加福音一章和马太福音一章的理解会说耶稣是婚外所孕，但他们 的理解却不是这样。事实确实如此——即使是那些不知道童贞女生子的人，即使是那些 不知道耶稣是奇迹受孕的人，那些以为约瑟是他父亲的人，也都认为耶稣是合法生的。 Because clearly, our reading of Luke 1 and Matthew 1 would say Jesus is conceived out of wedlock, but their reading was that He wasn't. And that's very much the case—even people who don't know about the virgin conception, even people who don't realize Jesus is miraculously conceived, who assume that Joseph is His father, still think Jesus is legitimately born.
这不仅仅是耶稣的跟随者在说，嘿，这不是罪因为这是个奇迹。 Yet it's not just Jesus' followers who say, Hey, it's not really sinful because it was miraculous.
不，不，这里完全没有任何罪的暗示。 No, no, there is no hint of there being any sin around this.
在对耶稣提出的所有指控中——没有人说约瑟和马利亚生孩子是犯罪。 All of the charges being raised against Jesus—nobody is arguing that Joseph and Mary sinned by having a baby.
你注意到这一点了吗？ Have you noticed this?
这是一个非常重要的细节。 This is a really significant detail.
约瑟决定暗暗地休了马利亚，这应该在我们头脑中敲响两个警钟： 第一，为什么他要谈论休妻，而我们认为他甚至都还没有结婚？ Joseph resolves to divorce Mary quietly, and the two alarm bells that should be going off in our heads are: one, why is he talking about divorcing a woman who we thought he wasn't even married to?
第二，暗暗地休她怎么能避免让她蒙羞呢？ And two, how would divorcing her quietly avoid putting her to shame?
你知道，在现代背景下，如果你在和某人约会，订婚了，怀孕了，他离 开了你，你并没有免于羞耻，因为在订婚期间发生性关系是有罪的。 You know, in a modern context, if you're dating somebody, you get engaged, you get pregnant, and he leaves you, you have not been preserved from shame because it's sinful to have sex during the engagement period.
好吧，我们接下来会看到，当我们认为马利亚和约瑟是现代意义上的订婚关系时 是错误的，他们有性关系是完全可以的——只是他们没有。但我说得太超前了。 Well, as we're going to see, we're mistaken when we think that Mary and Joseph are engaged in the modern sense of that, and that it was perfectly fine for them to be having a sexual relationship—except that they weren't. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
让我们退一步。 So let's step back.
犹太婚礼包含两个阶段：叫做克杜申和尼苏因。 A Jewish wedding consists of two stages: it's called the Kedushin and the Nissuin.
现在这是一个仪式的两个部分，但直到十一世纪之前，它们是两个独立的仪式。 Now, these are part of one ceremony now, but they used to be two separate ceremonies until the 11th century.
主要的变化是，现在未婚男子有了不只是父亲家的居所。 The major change is that you now have a place you live as an unmarried man that isn't just your dad's house.
换句话说，现在有单身公寓之类的地方，你可以和室友一起住，但在古代这是不存在的。 In other words, like bachelor pads and things exist now; you can live with roommates, but this wasn't really a reality in antiquity.
艾登·斯坦萨兹拉比说犹太婚礼由两部分组成。 Rabbi Aidan Steinsaltz says a Jewish wedding is made up of two parts.
这通常被称为订婚。 This is often called the betrothal.
这不是一个很好的词，但确实找不到更好的词了。 It's not a great word for it, but there's not really a better word for it.
就像，如果要翻译的话，订婚是我们能找到的最接近的词了。 Like, if you're going to translate it, betrothal is as close as we're going to get.
但它与我们西方的订婚概念很不同。 But it's very different from our Western concept of a betrothal.
克杜申是订婚，尼苏因是结婚。 The Kedushin is the betrothal, and the Nissuin is the marriage.
虽然被称为订婚，但克杜申不仅仅是结婚的承诺，它实际上就是婚姻。 Although it is called betrothal, the Kedushin is not just a commitment to marry; it is an actual marriage.
所以你明白为什么把它称为订婚和结婚会产生误导了吗？ So you see why calling it betrothal and marriage is really misleading?
因为第一个阶段实际上就是婚姻。 Because the first one is actually the marriage.
例如，如果这对夫妇选择不进行尼苏因完成婚姻，他们需要正式的离婚文书。 For example, if the couple chooses not to complete the marriage with Nissuin, they will need a formal get, a divorce.
在密西拿时代，这两个部分通常相隔约一年，以便给新娘和新郎时间准备婚礼和婚姻。 In the time of the Mishnah, these two parts normally took place about a year apart in order to give the bride and groom time to prepare for the wedding and for their marriage.
但今天，这两个部分在婚礼上一个接一个地完成。 But today, they are done one after the other at the wedding ceremony.
现在，我想补充几点。 Now, I just want to add a couple of things.
第一，正如我们所见，拉比对这两个阶段的描述完全得到圣经证据的支持。 One, as we see, the rabbi's description of the two stages is absolutely supported by the biblical evidence.
在马太福音一章18至19节说：耶稣基督降生的事记 在下面：他母亲马利亚已经许配了约瑟，还没有迎娶。 In Matthew 1, verses 18 to 19, it says, Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together.
好，所以这里有订婚，有迎娶——这里有两个阶段。 Okay, so there's betrothal, there's coming together—there are two stages here.
马利亚就从圣灵怀了孕，她丈夫约瑟是个义人， 不愿意明明地羞辱她，想要暗暗地把她休了。 She was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit, and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to send her away quietly.
所以有两个阶段：订婚和迎娶。 So there are two stages: the betrothal and the coming together.
在订婚阶段，约瑟已经是她的丈夫了，他需要离婚才能解除婚姻——这就是休妻。 At the betrothal, Joseph is already her husband, and he needs a divorce to get out of the marriage—that's sending her away.
让我解释一下为什么会这样，我之前提到过：在古代 ，你是个年轻人，你看到一个漂亮的年轻女子... So just to kind of explain why this is, I alluded to this before: in the ancient world, you're a young man, you see a beautiful young woman...
你决定要结婚，于是你就结婚了，但你还住在你父亲家。 You decide you're going to get married, so you get married, but you live with your dad.
她不能就这样搬来和你一起住，所以你需要去准备一个地方给她住。 She can't just come live in your house, so you need to go and prepare a place for her to live.
如果她父亲去世了，你有三个月时间准备；如果她父亲还在，你有一年时间。 If her dad is dead, you have three months to do that; if her dad's alive, you have a year.
现在，你可以想象，按犹太律法还有其他规定——很复杂——但基本思想就是这样。 Now, there are other things, as you can imagine, with Jewish law—it gets complicated—but that's the basic idea.
你有一定的时间去准备一个家给她。 You have a certain amount of time where you can go and prepare a home for her.
这在新约中有一个很美的描述，但我们往往没有注意到。 This is really beautifully described in the New Testament in a way that we don't notice.
耶稣在约翰福音14章最后的晚餐上说：在我父的家里有许多住处。 Jesus, at the Last Supper in John 14, says, In my Father's house are many rooms.
若是没有，我就早已告诉你们了。我去原是为你们预备地方去。 If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
我若去为你们预备了地方，就必再来接你们到我那里去，我在哪里，叫你们也在那里。 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am, you may be also.
这太美了！ That is gorgeous!
祂是在说，教会啊，你是我的新娘。 What He's saying is, Church, you are my bride.
克杜申已经完成了。 The Kedushin is complete.
剩下要做的就是新郎去为他的妻子准备房子，然后把她带进家里。 What remains to be done is for the bridegroom to go get the house ready for his wife, and then he brings her into the house.
他们结合；她进入这个家。 They come together; she enters the house.
然后她就在他的权柄之下，正如我们将要看到的，这就完成了婚礼的第二个阶段。 She then is under his authority, as we'll see, and that completes the second stage of the wedding.
在犹太法典克图波特48中说，即使在她订婚之后——也就是在克杜申之后— —女儿仍然在父亲的权柄之下，直到她通过婚礼华盖进入丈夫的权柄之下。 In the Jewish Talmud, in Ketubot 48, it says, Even after she's betrothed—that is, even after the Kedushin—a daughter is always under her father's authority until she enters her husband's authority in marriage via the wedding canopy.
所以婚礼的第二个阶段是关于从父亲的权柄转移到丈夫的权柄之下。 So the second stage of the wedding was about the transferring from being under the headship of your father to being under the headship of your husband.
这不是关于婚姻的性完成；而是关于作为一个女人，在谁的权柄之下共同生活的属灵意义。 It was not about consummating the marriage sexually; it was about coming to live together in the spiritual significance of whose headship you're under as a woman.
犹太学者迈克尔·萨特维尔谈到在第一阶段克杜申期 间，是可以有性关系的，但后来逐渐改变了... Michael Satwell, who is a Jewish scholar, talks about how during this first stage, the Kedushin, you could have sex, and there's a move away from this...
所以当你读到这些时，要看你研究的是哪个时代，因为拉 比们不喜欢这一点，他们想把性关系保留到第二阶段。 So when you're reading about this, it depends on what era you're kind of looking at because the rabbis hate the fact that they want to preserve sex until the second stage.
但在古代，第一阶段的性关系是很普遍的。 But in antiquity, sex was widespread in the first stage.
他说拉比文献表明，至少在一些犹太社区中，可能很长的订婚期间对贞洁的期望在降低。 He says rabbinic sources indicate that at least among some Jewish communities, the perhaps lengthy period of betrothal was accompanied by decreasing expectations of chastity.
现在，我要稍微质疑一下这点，但他接着引用了一个巴比 伦文献，说在犹大地区，他们在订婚期间就会在一起。 Now, I'm going to quibble with that a tiny bit, but he then quotes a Babylonian source that says in Judea, he would be together with her during the betrothal.
然后他说即使在巴勒斯坦的文献中，犹大地区的订婚夫妇在正式婚礼前就有性关系的名声。 And then he says even in Palestinian sources, Jewish couples betrothed in Judea had a reputation for having sexual relations before the marriage itself.
现在，我要对此提出异议，因为这暗示他们基本上是在做一些不该 做的事，你知道，在订婚期间有性关系，但这根本不是这么回事。 Now, I would quibble with this because this suggests that they're basically getting away with something, you know, having sex during the engagement, and that's just not what's going on here.
他们有性关系不会引起丑闻的原因是因为在克杜申期间他们 在法律上已经结婚了；他们只是没有住在同一个屋檐下。 The reason it's not scandalous for them to be having sex is because they're legally married during the Kedushin; they're just not living together in the same house.
我们从犹太文献中知道这一点。 We know this from Jewish sources.
塔木德中有整整一部分是关于克杜申如何运作的，它说一个女人 可以通过三种方式被获得——也就是说，成为一个男人的妻子。 So there's an entire part of the Talmud that's all about how the Kedushin works, and it says a woman is acquired by—i.e., becomes betrothed to a man to be his wife—in three ways.
它详细说明：通过钱财，通过文件，和通过性关系。 It elaborates: through money, through a document, and through sexual intercourse.
你可以通过支付嫁妆，通过签署合同，或者仅仅通过彼此发生性关系来订立克杜申。 You can contract the Kedushin either by paying a dowry, by signing a contract, or just by having sex with each other.
这就是为什么圣保罗警告你不要与妓女发生关系，因为如果你和一个未婚妓女 发生关系，在犹太法律看来，你们就结婚了——假设你们都是未婚的，对吧？ This is why St. Paul warns you not to have sex with prostitutes because if you and an unmarried prostitute have sex, in the eyes of Jewish law, you just got married—assuming you're both unmarried, right?
有时候就是这样运作的。 And this is how it worked sometimes.
例如，在创世记二十四章，当以撒和利百加相遇时，以 撒只是把她带进帐棚，他们同房，她就成了他的妻子。 For instance, in Genesis 24, when Isaac and Rebecca meet each other, Isaac just brings her into the tent, and they have sex, and she becomes his wife.
就这么简单。 It's that easy.
所以这没有任何丑闻；甚至连一点丑闻的迹象都没有。 So there's no scandal attached; there's not even a hint or a whiff of scandal with this.
他们不是在淫乱；不是在通奸；他们是通过性关系缔结婚姻。 They're not fornicating; they're not committing adultery; they're contracting marriage through sex.
现在，从西方的角度来看，这很奇怪。 Now, that is strange from a Western perspective.
这不是我们理解性和婚姻关系的方式。 That is not how we think of the relationship of sex and marriage.
而且，你知道，显然，这是一种私密的缔结婚姻的方式。 And, you know, obviously, this is a private way of contracting marriage.
拉比们更喜欢通过嫁妆或合同这种公开的方式，所以他们反对这第三种缔结克杜申的方式。 The rabbis prefer it to be done publicly through dowry or through a contract, and so they push against this third way of contracting the Kedushin.
但事实是，你可以通过性关系，就在法律上订立婚约了。 But the fact is, you could have sex, and now you were legally betrothed.
然后你们各自回到父母家；你们还不住在一起，因为现在计时开始了。 Then you go back home to your parents' houses; you don't live together yet because now the clock starts ticking.
他可以去为你准备房子，然后把你带到他的家——就是这样运作的。 He can go and prepare a house for you and bring you into his home—that's how it works.
那么为什么我要这么详细地解释这个犹太背景？ So why do I go to this length explaining this Jewish context?
因为当天使加百列向童贞女马利亚显现时，马利亚和 约瑟已经完成了克杜申；他们在法律上已经结婚了。 Because when the angel Gabriel appears to the Virgin Mary, Mary and Joseph have already completed the Kedushin; they are legally married.
他们可以自由地有性关系而不会有丝毫的丑闻。 They may freely have sex without a whiff of scandal.
他们也住在犹大地区；这是很普遍的；这是正常的。 They also live in Judea; this is widespread; this is normal.
但他们却没有性关系。 And yet they aren't having sex.
在路加福音一章34节，我通常喜欢的修订标准版天主教版有一个糟糕的翻译。 In Luke 1, verse 34, the RSVCE, which is the version I usually like, has a terrible translation.
马利亚对天使加百列说：「这怎么可能呢，因为我没有丈夫？」 Mary says to the angel Gabriel, How can this be since I have no husband?
但我们刚从马太福音第一章看到她确实有丈夫，对吧？ Well, we just saw from Matthew 1 that she does have a husband, right?
经上说的是她的丈夫约瑟。 Her husband Joseph is what it says.
但事实证明这不是原文的意思。 But it turns out that's not what it actually says.
这是一个委婉的翻译。 This is a euphemistic translation.
英王钦定本在这里翻译得好多了；她说：「我没有出 嫁，怎么有这事呢？」（直译：我未曾认识男人） The KJV is a lot better here; she says, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
换句话说，她不是说她没结婚；她是说她没有性生活。 In other words, she's not saying she's not married; she's saying she's not sexually active.
那么她怎么会有孩子呢？ So how is she going to have a baby?
现在，这对一个已婚妇女来说是个奇怪的问题。 Now, that is a weird question for a married woman to ask.
你告诉一个已婚妇女她将会有漂亮的孩子，她却说，怎么可能？ You tell a married woman you're going to have beautiful children, and she says, How?
我没有和任何男人同房。 I'm not having sex with any man.
这应该敲响警钟——这婚姻中有些不寻常的事。 That should set off alarm bells—something weird is going on in this marriage.
这婚姻中另一件奇怪的事，就像马太福音第一章告诉我们 的，我们已经看过这段经文，但让我们用新的眼光来看。 The other thing that's weird going on in the marriage is, as we're told in Matthew 1, we've already seen this passage, but let's look at it with new eyes.
在约瑟被告知要娶他的妻子马利亚——也就是完成尼苏因—— 之后，他就娶了妻子，只是没有和她同房，等她生了儿子。 After Joseph is told to take Mary, his wife—that is, to complete the Nissuin—he took his wife but knew her not until she had borne a son.
现在，我们都关注'等到'这个词，但没人问，为什么马利亚和约瑟不同房呢？ Now, we focus all this attention on the until, but nobody is asking, Why in the world are Mary and Joseph not having sex?
天使加百列并没有告诉他们不要同房。 The angel Gabriel didn't tell them to.
他们是在试图确保以赛亚书第七章的预言得到应验吗？ Are they just trying to make sure Isaiah 7 gets fulfilled?
他们是在靠自己的人力试图实现这个预言吗？ Are they, by their own human power, trying to work the fulfillment of this prophecy?
究竟是怎么回事？ For God's sake, what's going on here?
为什么他们不同房？ Why are they not having sex?
因为加百列并没有告诉他们不要同房。 Because Gabriel didn't tell them not to have sex.
马利亚表现得好像她不会同房，而且他们至少又继续九个月不同房。 Mary acts like she's not going to have sex, and they continue for nine more months at least not having sex.
这是怎么回事？ What is going on?
所以这应该敲响警钟——这里有些不寻常的事。 So this should be setting off alarm bells—something weird is going on here.
让我补充一点：在死海古卷中，我们发现了相关规定，说明 如果一个年轻女子在圣殿中许愿永远保持童贞该怎么办。 Well, let me add to this: in the Dead Sea Scrolls, we find the provisions laid out for what to do if a young girl or a young woman makes a perpetual virginity pledge in the temple.
什么时候这个誓言具有约束力？ When is it binding?
在什么条件下？ Under what conditions?
诸如此类的问题。 Those kinds of questions.
所以早期基督徒的想法——马利亚曾许下某种承诺，某种 永贞的誓言——从犹太人对婚姻的理解来看是有道理的。 So the idea that the early Christians had—that Mary had taken some kind of promise, some kind of vow of perpetual virginity—makes sense in light of the Jewish understanding of marriage.
从犹太人对永贞誓言的理解来看也是有道理的。 It makes sense in light of the Jewish understanding of perpetual virginity vows.
如果这是真的，那么约瑟和马利亚对婚姻的期待不 是性关系；他们期待的是类似伴侣关系的东西。 If that's true, then what Joseph and Mary are expecting out of marriage is not a sexual relationship; they're expecting something like companionship.
在古代世界，女性是非常脆弱的... Women in the ancient world were really vulnerable...
想想耶稣对拿因城寡妇的儿子死了时所表现出的关心。 Think about the care Jesus shows to the widow of Nain when her son dies.
为什么？ Why?
因为她是个寡妇，作为一个女人在这个世界上非常脆弱。 Because she's a widow, and so she's very vulnerable as a woman in this world.
当她唯一的儿子死了，她就变得更加脆弱。 When her only son dies, she becomes much more vulnerable.
同样，如果马利亚许下永贞的誓言，约瑟作为她重要的帮助和盟友 ，帮助她在这个对女性尤其严酷的世界中生活，这是很合理的。 Likewise, if Mary is taking a vow of perpetual virginity, it's not unreasonable that Joseph would be an important aid and ally for her in navigating a world that was often pretty harsh, especially to women.
换句话说，从犹太背景来看，这是说得通的。 So it makes sense, in other words, in light of the Jewish context.
如果我们没有这个背景，整件事对我们来说就很费解。 If we don't have that context, the whole thing is just mystifying to us.
好，让我们从耶稣的受孕和诞生跳到他的死亡。 Okay, so let's jump from Jesus' conception and birth to His death.
在约翰福音十九章，我们已经看到这段经文的一部分：在耶稣 十字架旁站着他母亲和他母亲的姊妹，革罗罢的妻子马利亚。 In John 19, we already saw part of this passage: By the cross of Jesus were His mother and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas.
我甚至没有提到这个细节：如果马利亚是革罗罢的妻子，这就是童贞女马利亚的嫂子。 I didn't even mention this detail: if Mary is the wife of Clopas, this is the Virgin Mary's sister-in-law.
记住，革罗罢和约瑟是兄弟，所以为什么他母亲的姊妹也叫马利亚就说得通了。 Remember, Clopas and Joseph are married to each other, so it makes sense why His mother's sister would also be named Mary.
如果像乔治·福尔曼那样，马利亚的父母给所有女儿都取名马利亚，那就太奇怪了。 It would be very strange if you had like a George Foreman situation where Mary's parents are just naming all of their daughters Mary.
但如果你把姊妹像弟兄一样理解为一个更灵活的词，可以用 于各种关系，那么把嫂子称为马利亚的姊妹就很自然了。 But if you take sister like brother to be a much more fluid term that you use for a variety of relationships, then sister-in-law you can freely call her Mary's sister.
所以，他母亲的姊妹，革罗罢的妻子马利亚，和抹大拉的马利亚。 So, His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
耶稣见母亲和他所爱的那门徒站在旁边，就对他母亲说：「母亲，看你的儿子。」 When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing near, He said to His mother, Woman, behold your son.
又对那门徒说：「看你的母亲。」 Then He said to the disciple, Behold your mother.
从那时起，那门徒就接她到自己家里去了。 And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own home.
这是很不寻常的。 This is remarkable.
我认为如果你要找一段经文来快速理解为什么马利亚永贞是真 实的，为什么认为马利亚有其他孩子是愚蠢的，就是这一段。 I think if you've got to look at one passage to quickly understand why the perpetual virginity of Mary is true and why it's silly to think Mary had other children, this is the one.
这就是关键，因为耶稣把他的母亲托付给了一个非亲属，使徒约翰。 This is where to go because Jesus just entrusted His mother to a non-relative, the Apostle John.
如果不是这样的话，他这样做就说不通了。 It just doesn't make sense that He would have done that otherwise.
在十诫中的'当孝敬父母'，我们现在常常理解为像孩子要听父母的话。 In the Ten Commandments, Honor your father and mother, we often think about that now as like children listening to your parents.
这不是它的意思。 That's not what it means.
十诫主要不是写给孩子的。 The Ten Commandments aren't written primarily for kids.
我是说，它也包含这个意思，但不仅仅是这个意思。 I mean, it means that as well, but that's not all it means.
它是关于照顾年迈的父母。 That it's about taking care of your aged parents.
所以这里的马利亚，就像拿因的寡妇一样，没有丈夫了，而且儿子正在死去。 And so here's Mary, like the widow of Nain, who has no husband anymore and whose son is dying.
耶稣安排她的照顾，如果耶稣是她唯一的儿子，这是说得通的。 Jesus is seen to her care, and that makes sense if Jesus is her only son.
但如果她有其他孩子，无论是在犹太人还是基督徒 的背景下，把马利亚托付给约翰都是不可想象的。 But if she has other children, it is unthinkable in either a Jewish or a Christian context that you would entrust Mary to John.
你会把马利亚托付给其他任何一个兄弟。 You would entrust Mary instead to any of the other brothers.
你甚至不需要托付马利亚，因为如果他们稍有良心，就会主动承担起这个责任。 You wouldn't even need to entrust Mary because they would step up to the plate and do that if they're even halfway decent.
对此新教徒通常的回应是说，好吧，也许这些兄弟不是信徒。 What usually gets said in response to this is that Protestants will say, Well, maybe these brothers were not believers.
这无关紧要。 It doesn't matter.
首先，十诫对犹太人和基督徒都有约束力；这是他们的道德责任。 First of all, the Ten Commandments were binding on Jews and Christians alike; they had a moral duty.
事实上，提摩太前书五章八节说：「人若不看顾 亲属，就是背了真道，比不信的人还不好。」 In fact, 1 Timothy 5, verse 8 says, Anyone who doesn't provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
这就是基督徒的立场；这就是我们对此有多重视。 That's the Christian kind of stakes; that's how seriously we take this.
你在塔木德中也能找到类似的告诫，作为犹太人或 基督徒，你有强烈的道德责任照顾年迈的父母。 You'll find similar kinds of admonitions in the Talmud that as a Jew or as a Christian, you have a strong moral duty to take care of your aging parents.
但这也说不通，因为这些新教徒会说主的兄弟雅各就是马利亚的亲生儿 子，而且我们知道他是忠实的基督徒之一，因为在加拉太书1:19， 圣保罗说：「至于别的使徒，除了主的兄弟雅各，我都没有看见。」 But this also doesn't make sense because these same Protestants will say that James, the Lord's brother, is literally the son of Mary, and we know he's one of the faithful Christians because in Galatians 1:19, St. Paul says, I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
所以我们要相信在使徒中，马利亚的亲生后代——好吧，也许他们在受难日 没有出现，只有约翰在场——但他们要因此被终身惩罚，失去他们的母亲？ So we're supposed to believe that among the apostles, our biological descendants of Mary—now sure, maybe they don't show up on Good Friday; only John does—but they get punished for life by having their mother taken away from them?
这有一点道理吗？ Does that make even an ounce of sense?
即使在这之后，当这位据称是耶稣亲兄弟的雅各成为耶路撒 冷早期教会的重要成员时，他也永远不能把母亲要回来？ That even after this, when James, this allegedly biological brother of Jesus, is an upstanding member of the early Church in Jerusalem, he doesn't get his mom back ever again?
这是对圣经如此糟糕的解读。 This is such a bad reading of Scripture.
你明白我的意思吗？ You see what I mean?
当你真正试图把这些碎片拼在一起，说雅各和约西，耶稣的 兄弟，有不同的父母，但我们仍然说他们是他的兄弟... When you actually try to put these pieces together and say James and Joseph, Jesus' brothers, have a different mom and dad, but we're still going to say they're His brothers...
而且，马利亚刚刚被托付给约翰，他不是这些兄弟中的 一个——不是雅各、约西、西门，也不是任何姊妹。 And by the way, Mary has just been entrusted to John, who isn't one of these brothers—James, Joseph, Simon, or any of the sisters.
据说，耶稣有一大群家人，而他却把他的母亲永久 托付给一个非亲属，让她余生都和他一起生活。 Allegedly, Jesus has a whole slew of family, and He just gave His mom to the permanent care of a non-relative to go live with him for the rest of her life.
这说得通吗？ Does that make any sense?
答案是不，这说不通。这行不通。 And the answer is no, it doesn't. It doesn't work.
认为这里发生的是这种情况，这是一个很糟糕的论证。 It is such a bad argument to think that's what's going on here.
好，最后一点，在我们用犹太人而不是现代美国人的视角 看待婚姻之后，我们也应该重新认识圣经中的圣洁观。 Okay, so the final thing, having looked at this through the eyes of a Jewish rather than a modern American vision of marriage, we should also reclaim a biblical vision of holiness.
我的意思是：今天，当你想到'圣洁'时，你会想到什么？ Here's what I mean by that: today, when you think about holy, what comes to mind?
对很多人来说，这就像是道德上正直——做好事的人—— 或者，你知道，甚至像是自以为比别人更圣洁，对吧？ For many people, it is something like morally upright—someone who does good things—or, you know, maybe even like holier than thou, right?
我们用它时带有某种负面意味。 We use it in kind of a negative sense.
但这都只是关于善良，这是对圣洁非常不完整的理解，因为圣经 意义上的圣洁远不止于此，实际上是与此有根本区别的东西。 But it's all about just goodness, and that is a very incomplete understanding of holiness because holiness in the biblical sense means so much more than that and is something actually radically distinct from that.
当我们谈论希伯来文版本时，希伯来文中圣洁这个词——首要的定义——是分别出来。 When we're talking about the Hebrew version, the Hebrew word for holiness—the definition, first and foremost—is apartness.
圣洁、神圣、分别——就是说，某物被分别出来归给神。 Holiness, sacredness, separateness—that is, something being set apart for God.
这就是'kodesh'（圣洁）。 That's kodesh.
同样，希腊文'hagios'（圣洁）的意思是某物被分别出来归给神。 Well, likewise, the Greek hagios means something set aside for God.
它的意思是与众不同。 It means other.
它是被分别出来的东西，是献给神的。 It's something separate that is just set aside, consecrated for God.
你知道，想想摩西和燃烧的荆棘丛，神对摩西说要脱掉鞋子因为这是圣地。 You know, think about Moses and the burning bush, where God says to Moses to remove his sandals because this is holy ground.
这并不是说这地在道德上正直；这地并没有做什么善事。 It doesn't mean the ground is morally upstanding; the ground hasn't done anything virtuous.
这地是献给神的；是分别出来单单归给神的。 The ground is consecrated to God; it's set aside for God and to God alone.
所以把你的脏鞋子踩在这地上是冒犯的。 And so to put your dirty sandals on this ground is offensive.
不幸的是，这是一种我们今天很少使用的、非常重要的圣洁观念。 That's going to be a really important sense of holiness we don't use very much today, unfortunately.
这对理解这一切非常重要。 That's really important for understanding how to make sense of this.
我要说天主教确实使用这种概念；你知道，比如圣水。 I would say Catholics do use that; you know, like holy water.
当我们谈论圣水时，我们的意思是它是分别出来作神圣用途的。 When we talk about holy water, we mean it's set aside for divine use.
但当我们谈论圣洁的人时，我们常常想到的是， 你知道，圣徒般的品质；我们想到的是美德。 But so often when we talk about holy people, we think about, you know, saintliness; we think about virtue.
但我们可能失去了那种为神分别出来的意义。 But we can lose that sense of being set aside for God.
有了这个重要的理解，我们在圣经中哪里看到这种意义上的圣洁？ So with that important understanding, where do we see holiness in that sense in the Bible?
好，我们在约柜中看到了一个例子。 Well, one place we see it is the Ark of the Covenant.
在撒母耳记下第六章，有一段对理解马利亚很重要的经文。 In 2 Samuel 6, there's an important passage for making sense of Mary.
经上说，大卫和跟随他的众人起身前往巴拉·犹大，要从那里将神的 约柜运来；这约柜就是坐在二基路伯上万军之耶和华立名的约柜。 It says, David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baal-Judah to bring up from there the Ark of God, which is called by the name of the Lord of hosts, who is enthroned on the cherubim.
所以约柜是这个神圣的容器，圣洁到不能触摸， 它承载着示基纳，就是神的荣耀，神的同在。 So the Ark was this sacred container, so holy it could not be touched, that housed the Shekinah, the glory of God, the presence of God.
他们在犹大山地，大卫刚在耶路撒冷建立了新的首 都，所以他想把约柜从犹大山地运到耶路撒冷。 They're in the hill country of Judah, and David has just created the new capital in Jerusalem, so he wants to bring the Ark from the hill country of Judah into Jerusalem.
我们被告知他从犹大山地起身要运约柜，但他没有用正确的方式。 We're told he arose and went from the hill country of Judah to try to bring in the Ark, but he doesn't do it the right way.
他没有按照神吩咐的方式去做。 He doesn't do it the way God told him to do it.
他只是让一些人用牛车运约柜，他们正穿过犹大山地。 He just has some guys trying to move the Ark on a cart with some oxen, and they're going through the hill country of Judah.
他们到了拿艮的禾场，牛失前蹄。 They get to the threshing floor of Nacon, and the oxen stumble.
约柜开始要掉下来，一个叫乌撒的可怜人，他本不该处在这种情 况中，伸手扶住神的约柜，结果因触摸这样圣洁的物件被击杀。 The Ark starts to fall off, and a poor guy named Uzzah, who shouldn't be in the situation he's in, reaches out, puts his hand to the Ark of God, takes hold of it, and he's struck dead for touching something that holy.
现在，像我刚才那样说'可怜的乌撒'很容易，但事实是他不该随意处置这么圣洁的东西。 Now, it's easy to say, Poor guy named Uzzah, as I did, but the truth is he should not be messing around with something this holy.
这是分别出来作神圣用途的；不该放在平民驾驶的牛车上。 It's set aside for divine use; it should not be on an ox cart led by some layman.
这不是他们该做的。 That's not what they're supposed to do.
这应该由祭司队伍抬着。 It's supposed to be carried by a priestly procession.
所以他被击杀了。 And so he is struck dead.
大卫就说：「耶和华的约柜怎可运到我这里来？」 David then replies, How can the Ark of the Lord come to me?
所以当他在想办法解决这个问题时，约柜就停在犹大山地三个月。 And so while he's scheming the answer to that, he stays in the hill country of Judah for three months.
他最终能把约柜运进耶路撒冷，我们被告知他在耶和华面前 极力跳舞；他穿着细麻布的以弗得——那是祭司的圣衣。 He eventually is able to bring the Ark into Jerusalem, and we're told that he danced before the Lord with all his might; he was girded with a linen ephod—that's a priestly vestment.
现在，我要你把这与路加福音一章39节圣路加对探访的描述比较一下。经 上说：「那时候，马利亚起身，急忙往山地里去，来到犹大的一座城。」 Now, I want you to compare that to St. Luke's description of the Visitation in Luke 1, verse 39. It says, In those days, Mary arose and went with haste to the hill country, to the city of Judah.
好，所以用词是一样的：她起身去了。 Okay, so the verbiage is the same: she arose and went.
地点是一样的；她去的是犹大山地。 The location is the same; she's going to the hill country of Judah.
她进了撒迦利亚的家，问以利沙伯安。 She goes into the house of Zechariah and greets Elizabeth.
以利沙伯一听到马利亚问安，腹里的胎儿就跳动。 When Elizabeth hears the greeting of Mary, the babe leaps in her womb.
就像大卫在约柜前跳舞一样，施洗约翰——他是祭司的后 裔，是祭司撒迦利亚的儿子——在以利沙伯腹中跳动。 So just as David danced before the Ark, John the Baptist—who is of the priestly line; he's the son of a priest, Zechariah—is dancing in the womb of Elizabeth.
以利沙伯被圣灵充满，大声说：「你在妇女中是有福的，你所怀的胎也是有福的。」 And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cries out, Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
就像大卫说：「耶和华的约柜怎可运到我这里来？」 And so just as David had said, How can the Ark of the Lord come to me?
以利沙伯现在说：「我主的母到我这里来，这是从哪里得的呢？」 Elizabeth now says, And why is this granted me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
这是一个美丽的对应。 It's a beautiful parallel.
然后继续，跳到56节。所以你看到所有这些明显的对应：她 起身去了，她去犹大山地，她有这个与大卫和以利沙伯之间很 相似的问候——大卫说耶和华的约柜，以利沙伯说我主的母。 Then it goes on, and then jump down to verse 56. So you've got all of these very obvious parallels: she arose and went, she goes into the hill country of Judah, she has this very similar greeting between Elizabeth and David—where David says Ark of the Lord, Elizabeth says Mother of my Lord.
施洗约翰在约柜前跳动，就像在原来的约柜前跳舞，大卫穿 着细麻布的以弗得，约翰是祭司的后裔——所有这些对应。 The dancing of John the Baptist before the Ark, Mary just like the dancing before the original Ark, David doing the linen ephod, John being of the priestly line—like all of these parallels.
他们停留三个月，然后回到耶路撒冷地区。 And they stay for three months, and then they go back to the area of Jerusalem.
这些不是巧合，对吧？ These are not coincidental, right?
这不是那种'嗯，这真是个奇怪的巧合'。 This is not just like a Huh, that's a weird coincidence.
不，不是的，路加期望你能用犹太人对圣洁的理解和对旧约 的认识来读这段经文，但我认为许多基督徒两者都缺乏。 No. No, Luke expects you to be able to read this with a Jewish understanding of holiness and knowledge of the Old Testament, neither of which I think many Christians have.
他要你知道他是在把马利亚描绘成新约柜，或者如果你愿意，是新约的约柜。 He wants you to know he's depicting Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant, or if you prefer, the Ark of the New Covenant.
约柜里装着天上的吗哪，就是从天上降下来的粮，耶稣说他就是；律法，耶 稣完全成全了；还有亚伦的杖，祭司职分的象征——耶稣是我们的大祭司。 The Ark of the Covenant contains the heavenly manna, the bread that came down from heaven, which Jesus says He is; the Law, which Jesus fulfills perfectly; and the staff of Aaron, the symbol of priesthood—Jesus is our great high priest.
这些就是约柜里的东西，所以约柜是这个神圣的、完全圣洁的器皿，圣洁到不能触摸。 That's what's inside the Ark, and so the Ark is this sacred, totally holy vessel, so holy that it cannot be touched.
路加要你知道，马利亚是这个预表的应验。 Mary, Luke wants you to know, is the fulfillment of that.
他把马利亚比作的这段经文，就是乌撒的故事，表明她是如此圣洁以至于不能触摸。 The passage that he is comparing Mary to is one where you see with the story of Uzzah that she's so holy she cannot be touched.
这就是我们应该对那里的圣洁的理解——这就是约柜的圣洁。 That's the understanding of holiness we should have there—that's the holiness of the Ark.
现在我要谈谈圣殿和圣殿门的圣洁。 I want to talk now about the holiness of the Temple and of the Temple gate.
在以西结书的最后九章，有对新圣殿的详细描述。 In the last nine chapters of the prophet Ezekiel, there's this lengthy description of the new Temple.
这是在第一圣殿被毁，第二圣殿还没有建造的时候。 This is at the time when the first Temple has been destroyed, and the second Temple hasn't been built yet.
但这不是第二圣殿的蓝图，事实上，当第二圣殿建成时，它并不 符合以西结书中的预言，因为这些预言说实话是超自然的描述。 But it's not a blueprint for the second Temple, and in fact, when the second Temple is built, it doesn't match the things that the prophecies in Ezekiel said because there are these, frankly, supernatural descriptions.
你知道，有活水从圣殿旁边流出来，这意味着是淡水，它能把咸水变成淡水。 You know, there are streams of water flowing from the side of the Temple that are living water, meaning it's fresh water, and it's turning salt water fresh.
所以这是能使死物复活的活水江河。 So it's streams of living water that can take a dead thing and make it alive.
第二圣殿的建造者永远无法做到这一点，这也不是以西结书预言真正要说的。 The designers of the second Temple were never going to be able to do that, and that's not what the prophecies in Ezekiel are really about.
在约翰福音第二章，耶稣说：「你们拆毁这殿，我三日内要再建立起来。」 In John 2, Jesus says, Destroy this temple, and in three days I'll raise it up.
约翰在约翰福音二章21节告诉我们，他是以他的身体为殿说的。 And John tells us in John 2, verse 21, that He spoke of the temple of His body.
这是一个重要的主题，特别是在约翰福音中——耶稣是以西结预言的应验。 This is an important theme, particularly in the Gospel of John—that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Ezekiel prophecies.
所以在约翰福音第七章，他说：「人若渴了，可以到我这里来喝。」 So a bit later on in John 7, He says, If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.
信我的人，就如经上所说，从他腹中要流出活水的江河来。 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.
嗯，旧约并没有说'从他腹中要流出活水的江河来'。 Well, the Old Testament doesn't say, Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.
耶稣是在把圣殿的预言应用到心灵的转变上——就是耶稣，从他在十字架上的肋旁流 出血和水，这些是活水的江河，通过血和水，通过洗礼，通过圣体圣事来转变人。 Jesus is applying the Temple prophecy to the transformation of the heart—that Jesus, from whose side will flow blood and water on the cross, those are the streams of living water that are transforming through the blood and the water, through baptism, through the Eucharist.
这就是那个转变；这就是他在说的。 This is the transformation; that's what He's talking about.
他是在说看起来像是关于建筑物的预言实际上是关于神居住之处 的预言，首先是耶稣，延伸开来，是所有神居住其中的基督徒。 He's saying what looked like a prophecy about a building is actually a prophecy of the place of divine dwelling, first and foremost Jesus, and by extension, all Christians in whom God is dwelling.
这才是以西结真正在说的。 That's what Ezekiel is really talking about.
为什么这很重要？ Why does this matter?
因为在以西结书四十四章，圣殿周围有一个门，是关闭的。 Because in Ezekiel 44, around the Temple is a gate, and it’s shut.
天使对以西结说：「这门必须关闭，不可开放，谁也不可由其中进 入，因为耶和华以色列的神已经由其中进入；所以必须关闭。」 The angel says to Ezekiel, This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore, it shall remain shut.
这是一个很清楚的描述，对吧？ That's a pretty clear description, right?
所以早期基督徒看到这个就说这是关于童贞女马利亚的。 And so the early Christians looked at this and said this is about the Virgin Mary.
例如，鲁菲努斯在他的《使徒信经注释》中说，先知以西结也预言了那个诞生 的奇迹方式，比喻性地称马利亚为主的门——就是那个主藉以进入世界的门。 For instance, Rufinus, in his commentary on the Apostles' Creed, said, The prophet Ezekiel too had predicted the miraculous manner of that birth, calling Mary figuratively the gate of the Lord—the gate, namely, through which the Lord entered the world.
因为他说：'朝东的这门必须关闭，不可开放，谁也不可经 过，因为耶和华以色列的神已经经过，所以必须关闭。' For he says, 'The gate which looks toward the east shall be closed and shall not be opened, and no one shall pass through it because the Lord God of Israel shall pass through it, and it shall be closed.'
他接着说，还有什么能如此明显地指向对童贞状态的不可侵犯的保持呢？ He goes on, What could be said with such evident reference to the inviolable preservation of the virgin's condition?
也就是说，她保持童贞。 That is, that she remains a virgin.
童贞的门是关闭的；耶和华以色列的神经过了这门。 The gate of virginity was closed; through it, the Lord God of Israel entered.
他从童贞女的子宫来到这个世界，保持着童贞的状态，完好无损。 He came forth from the virgin's womb into this world in the virgin state, being preserved inviolate.
童贞女的门永远关闭；因此，圣灵被称为主身体和他圣殿的创造者。 The gate of the virgin remained closed forever; therefore, the Holy Ghost is spoken of as the creator of the Lord's flesh and of His temple.
这就是这个概念。 So that's the idea.
但这不是说，你知道，早期基督徒对性有什么奇怪的心理障碍。 But this is not about, you know, early Christians having some weird sexual hang-up.
他们意识到，看，以西结预言中圣殿的东门是圣洁的。 They realized, look, the east gate of the Temple in the Ezekiel prophecy is holy.
神亲自经过了它，所以没有别人可以触碰它。 God has gone through it personally, and so no one else gets to touch it.
这不是说经过门有什么本质上的错；而是你不能经过神自己经过的门，因为那永远属于他。 It's not that there's anything inherently wrong with going through gates; it's that you don't go through the gate God Himself has gone through because that belongs to Him forever.
同样，性或生育或类似的事情都没有错。 Likewise, there's nothing wrong with sex or childbirth or anything like that.
怀孕是很好的。 Pregnancy is great.
问题是你不能与天主之母发生关系；她不会生其他的孩子。 The problem is you don't have sex with the Mother of God; she doesn't give birth to any other children.
除了耶稣没有人经过那门，因为耶稣已经经过了那门。 No one goes through the gate except Jesus because Jesus has gone through that gate.
这就是这个概念。 That's the idea.
再说一遍，这不是说性有什么错，怀孕有什么错，生育有什么错。 It's not that there's, again, nothing wrong with sex, nothing wrong with pregnancy, nothing wrong with childbirth.
这些都是很好的事情；都是值得称赞的，对吧？ Those are all very good things; they're all praised, right?
比如，新教徒不认为婚姻是圣事；天主教徒认为是。 Like, Protestants don't think marriage is a sacrament; Catholics do.
说天主教徒既反对性又生太多孩子，这很矛盾。 It's weird to say both that Catholics are anti-sex and have way too many kids.
这种批评有些说不通。 Something doesn't match up in that critique.
好，让我们继续，因为我们应该看的第三个领域是圣墓。 Well, let's go on from there because a third area we should look at is the holy tomb.
在马太福音二十七章，耶稣死后，亚利马太的约瑟取了他的身体，用 干净的细麻布裹好，安放在自己的新坟墓里，就是他凿在磐石里的。 In Matthew 27, after Jesus dies, Joseph of Arimathea takes His body, wraps it in a clean linen shroud, and lays it, we're told, in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock.
我们应该问的问题是：为什么对马太来说这是新坟墓很重要？ The question we should be asking is: why does it matter to Matthew that this is a new tomb?
因为约翰也说同样的话；他说耶稣被安放在园子里的一个新坟墓，是从来没有葬过人的。 Because John says the same thing; he says that Jesus is placed in the garden in a new tomb where no one had ever been laid.
为什么这很重要？ Why does that matter?
因为基督的坟墓是圣洁的。 Well, because the tomb of Christ is holy.
这是神自己死后安息的地方；没有其他人葬在那里。 Here’s a place where God Himself rests after death; no one else is buried there.
在耶稣的空坟墓里埋葬其他人，这违背了坟墓的圣洁。 It would be contrary to the holiness of the tomb to bury someone else in the empty tomb of Jesus.
同样，让分别为神的马利亚的子宫怀其他的孩子，这违背了她子宫的圣洁。 And likewise, it would be contrary to the holiness of Mary's womb to take this womb set aside for God and have some other child.
再说一遍，这不是说埋葬有什么错... Again, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with burial...
这只是意味着这是献给神的。 It just means this is consecrated to God.
关于圣洁和这种理解有什么这么难的？ What's so hard about holiness and this understanding?
我们应该看的最后一个地方是圣洁的童贞女，这将是最有争议的 一个，因为这会让人想，哦，这些对性的心理障碍是怎么回事？ The final place we should look at are the holy virgins, and this is going to be the most controversial one because this is going to make people think, Oh, what about all these sexual hang-ups?
但让我们听听实际的圣经证据。 But listen to the actual biblical evidence.
在哥林多前书第七章，圣保罗说：我愿你们无所挂虑。 In 1 Corinthians 7, St. Paul says, I want you to be free from anxieties.
没有娶妻的，是为主的事挂虑，想怎样叫主喜悦；娶了妻的 ，是为世上的事挂虑，想怎样叫妻子喜悦，他的心就分了。 The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord, but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided.
然后他对女人也说了同样的话。 Then he says the same thing for women.
换句话说，童贞者能够以已婚者实际上无法做到的方式献身给神，分别为圣。我不 能像修士那样过极端的贫穷、贞洁和顺服的生活，因为这不适合我的已婚状态。 In other words, the virgin is able to be consecrated to God, set aside for God, in a way the married person practically isn't. I cannot live radical poverty, chastity, and obedience in the way a monk can because it would be unfitting to my married state.
如果我对妻子说：'亲爱的，我把整个房子都卖了，这 样我就可以去过托钵僧的生活'，这对她是不公平的。 It would be an injustice to my wife if I said, Honey, I sold the entire house so I can go live as a mendicant.
带上孩子们；我们要去挨家挨户乞讨食物。 Bring the kids; we're going to go knock on doors and try to get food.
这对修士来说是圣洁的；对我来说却不是。 That's holy for a monk; it's not holy for me.
所以这里描述的圣洁——这种为神分别出来，这种保罗所描述的奉献——是童贞的圣洁。 So the holiness that is described here—this being set aside for God, this consecration that Paul is describing—is a holiness of virginity.
启示录呼应了这个主题。 The Book of Revelation echoes this theme.
那从地上买来的十四万四千人有一首特别的歌只有他们能 唱，我们被告知，这些人未曾沾染妇女，他们原是童身。 The 144,000 who have been redeemed from the earth have a special song only they can sing, and we're told, It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste.
这些人无论羔羊往哪里去，他们都跟随他。 It is these who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
这些人是从人间买来的，作初熟的果子归与神和羔羊 ，在他们口中察不出谎言来，他们是没有瑕疵的。 These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.
这里描绘的是双重的圣洁：灵魂的圣洁——灵魂的无瑕疵，被 神居住的灵魂——所以没有其他的，就是罪，可以住在那里。 This is a two-fold holiness being depicted here: a holiness of soul—the spotlessness of the soul, the soul inhabited by God—so no one else, namely sin, gets to dwell there.
同样，也是身体的圣洁，身体献给神，他们的身体 以这样的方式献给神，以至于与性和婚姻不相容。 And likewise, a bodily holiness, a bodily consecration for God, that their body is given over to God in such a way that it's incompatible with them then having sex and marriage.
再说一遍，这不是说性或婚姻是邪恶的；只是说献给神的东西不能双重使用。 Again, it doesn't mean that sex or marriage are evil; it just means a thing given to God isn't for dual use.
所以，你知道，想象这个例子——这只对那些对圣洁有足够认识的人有效——你永远不会， 希望如此，把弥撒用的圣爵用来开茶会或吃晚饭，因为这完全违背了这物件的善良和圣洁。 So, you know, the example to imagine—and this is only going to work for those of you who have enough of a sense of holiness for it to work—is that you would never, hopefully, use the chalice from Mass for a tea party or for supper because it would be radically contrary to the goodness and the holiness of the thing.
这就是圣经的理解：有些事物是圣洁的，是为神 分别出来的，而童贞是实现这一点的一种方式。 That is the biblical understanding: that there are some things that are holy, that are set aside for God, and that virginity is one way of living that out.
现在，显然，身体上的童贞只是故事的一部分。 Now, obviously, the virginity signified bodily is only part of the story.
你可能是童贞却仍然是个极其有罪的人；你没有分别你的灵魂，只分别了你的身体。 You could be a virgin and still be a horribly sinful person; you haven't set your soul aside, you've only set your body aside.
但重点是把身体和灵魂都分别为圣献给神是给主的丰富奉献。 But the point is that to set aside body and soul for God is a rich offering to the Lord.
这就是这个概念。 So that's the idea.
早期基督徒既关心马利亚的无罪，又关心她的永贞，原因 是他们想让你知道她是为神分别出来的；她是献给神的。 The reason that the early Christians cared both about Mary's sinlessness and about her perpetual virginity is because they wanted you to know she is set aside for God; she is consecrated to God.
她就像圣殿的东门；就像坟墓；就像圣保罗所说的圣洁童贞女。 She's like the east gate of the Temple; she's like the tomb; she's like the holy virgin as St. Paul talks about.
但最重要的是，我们可以说她就像新约的约柜，新约的约柜是 独特且完全地分别给神的，以至于没有其他人可以触摸它。 But most of all, we might say she's like the Ark of the New Covenant, and the Ark of the New Covenant is uniquely and radically set aside to God in such a way that nobody else touches it.
把你的精美瓷器放在约柜里都是完全不恰当的，同样，在蒙 福童贞女马利亚的子宫里孕育一个孩子也是完全不恰当的。 It would be totally inappropriate to put even your fine china in the Ark of the Covenant, so likewise, it would be totally inappropriate to put a child in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
所以希望这说清楚了。 So hopefully that's clear.
如果你正确理解婚姻，正确理解圣洁，那么你就会意识到新 教反对马利亚永贞的论据从根本上深刻地误解了这两者。 If you understand marriage properly and if you understand holiness properly, then you realize that the Protestant case against the perpetual virginity of Mary just misunderstands both of those in a radical and profound kind of way.
他们不明白马利亚和约瑟的婚姻有些不寻常；他们不明白第一世 纪的犹太婚姻与二十一世纪的西方婚姻很不相同；他们也不明白 马利亚的圣洁既体现在她的永贞上，也体现在她的无罪上。 They don't get that there's something weird going on about Mary and Joseph's marriage; they don't get that marriage in first-century Judaism looks very little like 21st-century Western marriage; and they don't get that the holiness of Mary is signified and accomplished in her perpetual virginity as well as in her sinlessness.
所以我希望这说得通。 So I hope that makes sense.
我希望这有帮助。 I hope that helps.
我知道今天的信息量很大，但我希望这能让你从新的角度看这些 经文，因为这是那种今天很多人觉得很明显马利亚不是永贞女的 领域之一，但对早期基督徒来说，她是永贞女这点更加明显。 I know that was a lot of information today, but I'm hoping that it lets you see these passages in a new light because this is one of those areas where it's very obvious today to so many people that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, but it was even more obvious to the early Christians that she was.
如果我们想理解这种差异，我们必须发现我们在理解圣经时失去了什么。 And if we want to understand that disjuncture, we have to uncover what we've lost in our understanding of the Bible.
这里是《无耻大杂烩》，我是Joe Heschmeyer。 For Shameless Potpourri, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
非常感谢，愿神祝福你。 Thank you so much, and God bless you.
感谢收听《无耻大杂烩》，这是天主教答疑播客网络的一个节目。 Thank you for listening to Shameless Potpourri, a production of the Catholic Answers Podcast Network.
访问CatholicAnswersPodcast.com可以找到更多精彩节目 Find more great shows by visiting CatholicAnswersPodcast.com
或在你收听播客的任何地方搜索Catholic Answers。 or search Catholic Answers wherever you listen to podcasts.