谢谢。 Thank you.
那么，正如你们所听说的，我是都灵裹尸布研究项目的官方记录摄影师。 Well, as you’ve heard, I was the official documenting photographer for the Shroud of Turin Research Project.
都灵裹尸布研究项目是第一个也是唯一一个获准对都灵裹尸布进行深入检查的科学团队。 The Shroud of Turin Research Project was the first and only scientific team ever to be given permission to do an in-depth examination of the Shroud of Turin.
现在，我要告诉你们，我刚刚结束了一次为期六周的巡回演讲：在三个州、十 二个城市，总共二十二场讲座，每场都至少两个小时，而且全是即席演讲。 Now, I have to tell you that I just finished a six-week lecture tour: three states, twelve cities, twenty-two lectures, all of them two hours or more, and all of them extemporaneous.
我经常为都灵裹尸布举办八小时的研讨会，同样，没有讲稿，没有任何笔记。 I often do eight-hour seminars on the Shroud of Turin, again, no notes, no lecture notes of any kind.
但是十五分钟太难了，所以请多包涵，因为我没办法做到。 But fifteen minutes is hard, and so you’ll have to forgive me, but there was no way that I could do this.
你们知道，要让我开始说话并不难，但想让我停下来可就难了。 You know, it’s not hard to get me to start talking, but it’s hard to get me to stop.
所以，请原谅我带了一些笔记来，我会参看这些笔记以便控制时间并确保我讲得准确。 So, you’ll forgive me that I brought some notes with me, and I’m going to have to refer to them just so that I stay on time and make sure that I do it correctly.
就这样，那就是那块三十五年前进入我生活的布料。 So there it is, that’s that piece of cloth that got into my life thirty-five years ago.
那么，作为一名专业摄影师，我专长于科学、医学和技术方面的拍 摄，所以我具备加入那个研究都灵裹尸布团队所需的技能和资格。 Well, as a professional photographer, I specialized in scientific, medical, and technical kinds of issues, so I had the skills and the qualifications that were necessary to be a part of the team that examined the Shroud.
但是当他们第一次来找我时，我的第一反应是：「不，不可能」。 But when they first asked me to do this, the first thing I said was, No, no way.
为什么我会拒绝呢？ And why did I refuse?
答案很简单：我对这个主题感到非常不自在，因 为我是出生并在一个正统派犹太家庭长大的。 Well, the answer is simple: I was very uncomfortable with the subject matter because I was born and raised in an Orthodox Jewish home.
我想说明一下：在我现在的人生阶段，我并不遵守犹 太教传统，但在最初的十三年里，我确实是这样。 Now, I want to be clear about that; I am not a practicing Jew at this point in my life, but I was for that first thirteen years.
我的父母都是在第二次世界大战之前，还很小的时候，从波兰移民到 美国。所以当时我的疑问，也是在我脑子里一直闪现的疑问是：为什 么一个犹太人要参与这样一件也许可以说是基督教中最重要的圣物？ Both my parents immigrated to America from Poland when they were little kids, just before World War II. So my question, and the question that went through my mind at the time, was: why would a Jewish man want to get involved with what is probably, arguably, the most important relic of Christianity?
在那个人生阶段，我看不出参与其中有任何好处。 At that moment in my life, I couldn’t see any benefit to being involved.
不仅如此，我完全是个怀疑论者，认为那块裹尸布大概是某种画作，这在1978年 是普遍的看法。我原本打算到了都灵，匆匆看一下，看到颜料和笔触，然后就回家。 Well, not only that, I was a total skeptic and figured that the Shroud was probably some form of a painting, which was the conventional wisdom in 1978. I fully expected to get to Turin, take a quick look, see the paint and the brushstrokes, and go home.
我甚至在什么地方公开说过这种话，当然，在过去三十五年里，我一直为此懊悔不已。 I even stupidly said that publicly somewhere, and of course, for the last thirty-five years, I’ve been living to regret those words.
总之，最终我把这整件事——虽然这么想很糟糕— —看成是在梵蒂冈附近免费去意大利旅游的机会。 Anyway, in the end, I viewed this whole thing—and this is terrible to admit—this close to the Vatican, this was going to be a free trip to Italy.
我当时就是这么想的。 That’s what I thought.
但是你们知道，我那时的态度确实不够成熟，因为我当时才三十二岁。 But you know, my attitude was immature because I was only thirty-two years old at the time.
我的儿子现在才三十三岁，我还在等他成熟呢，所以我甚至无法想象当年我是多么稚嫩。 My son just turned thirty-three, and I’m still waiting for him to grow up, so I can’t even imagine where my head was in those days.
最终，我当然还是加入了团队，因为裹尸布上的图像 有一些非常奇妙的特性，激发了我的科学好奇心。 In the end, of course, I did join the team because the image on the Shroud has some fascinating properties that piqued my scientific curiosity.
但我还是曾经两次想要退出。 But I still tried to quit twice.
事实上，随着我们的团队不断壮大，有几位来自喷气推进实验室的人也加入了我们的团队。 Again, in fact, as our team grew, a few men from the Jet Propulsion Labs became members of our team.
其中有一位叫做唐·林——愿他安息。 One of them was a man named Don Lin—may he rest in peace.
唐是NASA的一位成像专家，所以他立刻成了我的英雄，他曾在「旅行 者号」「维京号」「水手号」和「伽利略号」的任务中担任成像负责人。 Don was an imaging expert from NASA, so he was my hero immediately, and he was the head of imaging on Voyager, Viking, Mariner, and Galileo.
你们或许听说过其中的一些项目。 You might have heard of some of them.
我相信任何专业摄影师在有这样的机会时，都会觉得加入那个团队是一种荣誉。 So I am pretty sure that any professional photographer, given that opportunity, would have been honored to be a member of that team.
但是我记得在我们筹备期间的某个时刻，我问过唐一个问题。 But I remember asking Don at one point during our planning.
在我们去都灵检查裹尸布之前，我们花了十九个月做准备。 We planned for nineteen months before we came to Turin to examine the Shroud.
我记得我问他：「唐，像我这样一个好犹太小子在这个团队里干什么？」 I remember asking him, I said, Don, what’s a nice Jewish boy like me doing on this team?
而唐是一位虔诚的公教徒，他看着我的眼睛说：「 你是不是忘了，那位相关的人是一位犹太人？」 And Don, who was a good Catholic, looked me right in the eye and he said, Have you forgotten that the man in question was a Jew?
我回答：「不，唐，那可能是我对耶稣唯一知道的事——他是犹太人。」 And I said, No, Don, that’s probably the only thing I knew about Jesus—that he was a Jew.
然后他说——我觉得那一刻是神透过他的嘴在对我说话——他看着我说 ：「噢，所以你不认为神会想让他所拣选的子民加入我们的团队吗？」 And then he said—and of course, this is where Don, I think, God was speaking to me through his lips—he looked at me and he said, Oh, so you don’t think God would want one of His chosen people on our team?
我笑了起来。 And I laughed.
我说：「不会啊，唐，我从没这么想过。」 I said, No, Don, I never thought that.
然后唐给了我或许是我这辈子听到过的最好的建议。 And so then Don gave me what perhaps may be the best advice I’ve ever been given.
他说：「巴里，去都灵，尽你所能做到最好。 He said, Barry, go to Turin, do the best job you can do.
神不会事先告诉我们他的计划，但总有一天你会明白的。 God doesn’t tell us in advance what the plan is, but one day you’ll know.
就凭这句话，我留在了那个团队，因为再也没有比这更真实更深刻的话了。 You know, and on those words, I stayed on that team because truer and more profound words have never been spoken.
唐是对的，我从未后悔接受他的建议并留在那个团队里。 Don was right, and I’ve never regretted taking his advice and staying on that team.
我们所进行的测试持续了好几年，之后我们又对结果进行了评估。 Now, the tests we performed went on over the years that we did it, and then evaluated it.
这些结果最终证明那块裹尸布不是画作，不是灼痕，也不是照片。 It went on to ultimately prove that the Shroud was not a painting, not a scorch, or not a photograph.
这些就是人们通常所认为的各种可能性。 These were the kinds of conventional wisdom things that people had.
因此，我们所设计的所有测试，基本上都是为了排除这些可能性。 And so all the tests that we planned basically were to test for those kinds of things.
三年后，我们在经过同行评审的科学期刊上发表了我们的 研究成果——我得补充说明，那些期刊是公认可信的。 At the end of our three years, we published our work in peer-reviewed scientific journals—credible ones, I might add.
如今随着网络的兴起，也出现了一些期刊，他们审查的唯一内容就是你的支票是否兑现。 Now, with the internet, we have journals where the only thing they review is your check to make sure it clears.
而这些期刊并不像我们当初发表论文时所面对的那些那样具有高标准。 And they’re not exactly a high standard as the ones that we had to deal with.
但理想情况下，我们当时之所以去那里，是为了 回答这样一个问题：这幅图像是如何形成的？ But ideally, we went there to answer the question: how is the image formed?
这是我们的主要目标。 That was our primary purpose.
然而，最终我们无法确定任何图像形成机制，能 够在都灵裹尸布上形成具有那种特性的图像。 And in the end, however, we could not determine an image formation mechanism that could make an image with the properties on the Shroud of Turin.
我们所做的集体研究，至今仍然构成了在同行评审的 科学中关于都灵裹尸布真实性的主要文献数据库。 Our collective work still forms the primary database of literature that exists in the peer-reviewed science that points to the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin.
然而，即使如此，我又过了十八年才真正信服。 However, even with all that, it still took another eighteen years before I was convinced.
我并不是那么容易被说服。 I’m not a fast sell.
但是在1995年，在我多年的抵触之后，世界知名的血液专家艾伦·阿德勒博士 打电话给我，他可能真的是当时世界上最权威的血液专家——而且也是犹太人。 But in 1995, after years of actual resistance on my part, world-renowned blood expert Dr. Alan Adler, who was truly maybe the foremost blood expert in the world—and also Jewish, I might add—was on the phone with me.
他回答了一个一直阻止我接受这块裹尸布真实性的最后关键问题。 He answered the final question that had kept me from accepting the Shroud as authentic.
当时我和他通电话，因为裹尸布上的血仍然是红色，而陈旧的血通常会 变成黑色或棕色，有时几个小时就会变色，所以我并不相信那是真血。 I was on the phone with him, and I wasn’t convinced the Shroud was real because the blood on the Shroud is still red, and old blood is supposed to turn black or brown, sometimes just within a matter of hours.
这点确实让我停滞不前。 That really stopped me.
艾伦当时在电话里——当然他并不是真的看着我，但他 对我说：「巴里，我在血液中发现了大量的胆红素。 Al then looked at me over the phone—he didn’t look at me, but he spoke to me—and he said, Barry, I found this large amount of bilirubin in the blood.
一个像耶稣那样受到折磨的人——在前一夜在客西马尼园被殴打，第二天又遭鞭打，最 终戴上荆棘冠冕，被钉十字架并被长矛刺透——这样被折磨的人通常都会陷入休克。 Now, somebody who’s been tortured like Jesus was—beaten the night before in the Garden of Gethsemane, then the next day scourged, and ultimately capped with a crown of thorns, ultimately crucified and speared—people who’ve been tortured that way usually go into shock.
肝脏会向血液中释放大量胆红素，艾伦告诉我，这样的血会一直保持红色。 The liver floods the bloodstream with bilirubin, and Al told me that blood of that nature stays red forever.
突然，我意识到最后一条证据已经出现，我别无选择，只能接受这块裹尸布是真实的。 Suddenly and unexpectedly, I realized that the last bit of evidence had come in, and I had no choice but to accept that the Shroud was authentic.
我年轻时很喜欢阿瑟·柯南·道尔的作品，我记得柯南·道尔 曾经借夏洛克·福尔摩斯之口说过：「如果你排除了所有可能 性，那么剩下的，无论多么不可思议，都很可能就是事实。」 I was a big Arthur Conan Doyle fan when I was young, and I remember Conan Doyle once said, through the lips of Sherlock Holmes, If you eliminate all the possibilities, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is most likely the truth.
然后我想起了奥坎的剃刀原理。 Then I remembered Occam's Razor.
奥坎的剃刀原理指的是：最简单的答案往往是最正确的。 Occam's Razor is that the simplest answer is most likely the correct one.
于是我只剩下一个结论：这块布只能是真实历史中耶稣的裹尸布。 So I was left with only one conclusion: that this cloth could only be the authentic burial shroud of the historic Jesus.
这对我来说也很意外；我当时很震惊，因为在那么多年的 抗拒之后，你也会想：「嗯，我和这事没什么关系了。」 It was even a surprise to me; I was shocked because after all those years of resistance, you know, you think, Well, I’m finished with this.
但事实并非如此。 That wasn’t to be the case.
多年来，我注意到媒体针对裹尸布的报导常常存在误导，甚至完全不实。 Now, over the years, I had noticed—that is, over all those years—I’d noticed that the media reports on the Shroud were often misleading or even completely false.
而我有幸亲自研究过它，并且掌握了我后来意识到的内部信息。 And I’d been privileged to study it firsthand, and I had access to what I ultimately realized was inside information.
所以，我知道裹尸布的真相，而根据我对媒体的了解 ，我当然不会盲信我在报纸上读到的那些荒诞内容。 So, I knew the truth about the Shroud, and because of my media experience, I knew better than to believe the nonsense I was reading in the paper.
在这个星球上，或许有十亿人比我更有资格进入那个房间。 Now, there were probably a billion people on this planet who had more right to be in that room than I did.
然而，1978年我就在那里，是神把我硬拉进去，连踢带嚷地把我留在那个团队里。 And yet, there I was in 1978, God dragging me kicking and screaming, keeping me on that team.
在那一刻，我意识到这也带来了一份沉重的责任。 At that moment in time, I realized that it brought with it a great responsibility.
我得到的这个特权带给我一种顿悟，因为我终于意识到我进入那个房间并不是为了我自己。 This privilege I had been given was something of an epiphany because I finally came to realize that I wasn’t in that room for me.
我进入那个房间是为了你们。 I was in that room for you.
如今我了解了裹尸布的真相，但我也感到沮丧， 因为我的基督徒弟兄姊妹却没有得到那个真相。 Now I knew the truth about the Shroud and was frustrated because my Christian brothers and sisters were not getting that truth.
对我来说，我们所有团队成员的动力一直只是为了追寻真相。 To me, all of our team members had always been doing this simply about the truth.
那么，在1996年，我接到一个电话。我向翻译人员道歉——这不在原稿里。 Now, in 1996, I got a phone call, and I apologize to the interpreter—this isn’t in the script.
我接到一个朋友的电话，我的朋友说：「你知道你参与的那个裹尸布的事吗？」 I got a phone call from a friend, and my friend said, You know that Shroud thing that you’re involved with?
我回答：「对，我知道我参与的那个裹尸布的事。」 And I said, Yeah, I know that Shroud thing that I’m involved with.
然后他说：「嗯，你知道吗，结果那其实是达·芬奇拍摄的一张照片。」 And he said, Well, you know, it turns out that’s a photograph made by Leonardo da Vinci.
达·芬奇？ Leonardo da Vinci!
我可不是历史专家——我们当时确实有真正的历 史学者一起工作，我一向把历史问题交给他们。 And I’m not an expert in history—we had some real historians that we worked with, and I always left it to them.
但我记得我当时对他说，起初我还以为他在开玩笑，后来才意识到他是认真的。 But I remember saying to him, at first, I thought he was joking, but then I realized he was serious.
所以我说：「不好意思，你是从哪里得到这些消息的？」 So I said, Excuse me, but where did you get that information?
他回答：「我和我妻子在杂货店排队结账时，柜台上有 一本小报，叫做《The Inquirer》。」 And he said, Well, my wife and I were checking out at the grocery store, and there on one of the counters was a tabloid, The Inquirer.
我当时就有了一个顿悟，就像我提到的那样，我意识到公众根本无法接触到真正的信息。 And I had this epiphany, as I mentioned, and I realized that the public just doesn't have access.
于是就在那一刻，我建立了Shroud.com， So at that moment in time, I built Shroud.com,
它后来成为互联网上最早、最大、内容最丰富的相关资料库。 which has since become the oldest, largest, and most extensive resource on the internet.
我们刚刚庆祝了成立十七周年，虽然那上面写着三千八百万，但自从我做 这场演讲用到那张幻灯片之后，我们已经远远超过了四百万的访问量。 We just celebrated our seventeenth anniversary, and although that says thirty-eight million, we’re well over four million since I put that slide in this lecture.
所以今年是我们成立十七周年，我每天还会收到大约——嗯，我估计——一千封电子邮件。 So we had our seventeenth anniversary this year, and I also got about, oh, I’m thinking, one thousand emails a day.
有些日子会少一点。 Now, some days a little less.
几周前我上过CNN，那之后又进来好几千封邮件，所以这已经变成了一份全职工作。 I was on CNN a few weeks ago, and a couple thousand emails came in, so it’s turned into a full-time job.
总之，事实上，人们常常说：「嘿，你知道吗，你在Google上是排在第一位 的。」而我的回答总是一样：「你知道吗，我们比Google还早成立五年。」 Anyway, and as a matter of fact, people often say, Hey, you know you're number one on Google, and my answer is always the same: you know, we’re five years older than Google.
没错。最重要的是，我现在意识到，这项工作正是在履行我在197 8年所获得的那个殊荣所带来的责任。最终，它也成为了我的传承。 Because we are, most importantly, I guess, now I realize that this work is the fulfillment of that obligation that I felt that came with the great privilege that I was given in 1978. And in the end, it’s also become my legacy.
我有着漫长的职业生涯，做过许多事情，但它们来了又走，实际上并不意味着什么。 I’ve had a long career and done a lot of stuff, but it’s come and it’s gone; it really means nothing.
而现在我在做的这件事，最终或许会比我活得更久。 And now I’m doing something that, in the end, will live beyond me.
这意味着我的孙辈或许能向他们的孙辈展示曾祖父在以前做过的事情。 That means my grandchildren maybe can show their grandchildren something their great-grandpa did back in the old days.
总之，2009年我成立了都灵裹尸布教育与研究协会，也就是STERA公司。 Anyway, in 2009, I formed the Shroud of Turin Education and Research Association, or STERA, Inc.
那是一个非营利组织。 That’s a non-profit organization.
十四年来，我一直自费维持着这个网站，后来终于到了必须转为非营利组织的时候。 For fourteen years, I supported the website myself and eventually got to a point where I needed to go non-profit.
我想很多人——我必须坦白地说——许多人可能对我的动机有些怀疑。 I think a lot of people—and I’m going to be candid— a lot of people may have been a little suspicious of my motives.
你们知道，一个犹太人，而且我实际上也被允许出售一些东西——裹尸布的照片。 You know, a Jewish guy, and I’m actually permitted to sell things—photographs of the Shroud.
我没有冒犯的意思；我也不会因此而感到被冒犯。 No offense; I’m not offended by that.
我明白。 I understand.
所以我就成立了STERA公司。 And so I formed STERA, Inc.
目的是帮助保存这些信息，支持这个网站，让将来的研究者 能够获得我们当初所收集的材料，以及我之后收集的材料。 to help preserve this information, to support the website so that in the future, future researchers will have the opportunity to have access to the materials that we collected, and I’ve collected since.
这样一来，未来关于都灵裹尸布的研究就不用从 零开始，并且这样也能保证让所有人免费使用。 This way, future research on the Shroud doesn’t have to start from scratch again, and that ensures they’ll remain free to everyone.
Shroud.com上依然没有任何广告。 Still no advertising on Shroud.com.
好了，这是我们的网站页面。 Now, there’s our page.
不好意思，我稍微落后了一点。 I’m sorry, I’m a little behind.
如果你们没注意到的话，这就是我所应该谈论的主题。 Now, in case you missed it, that’s the topic I’m supposed to be talking about.
我知道到现在为止好像完全没提到。 I know it hasn’t seemed like that at all yet.
现在，我面临的问题是我自己并不是真正的科学家；我是一名技 术型摄影师，所以在谈到这个问题时，我无法代表整个科学界。 Now, the problem I have is that I'm not really a scientist myself; I’m a technical photographer, so I cannot speak for the world of science in general in addressing this issue.
不过我个人相信——这是我个人的观点——科学只不过 是人类试图去了解神所创造的一切；我就是这样看的。 Although I personally believe—and this is my personal point of view—that science is simply man's attempt to understand God's creation; that's the way I see it.
因此，在这场演讲里，我只能就这个特定的项目分享我个人的看法。 So, in this particular lecture, I can only share my personal point of view with you about this specific project.
这就是我以前的样子。 And that’s how I used to look.
注意那时我的头发多得多——呃，我现在的头发还是 不少，只是往后面移了一点，而且颜色也稍微变了。 Notice that there was a lot more hair—well, I still have a lot; it’s just slid down the back a bit, and it has changed color a tad.
我可以先告诉你们，首先，公教会从第一天起就 非常宽容，一点也没有干涉我们的科学研究。 So I can start by telling you that, first of all, the Church was very gracious from the first day and in no way interfered with our scientific work.
他们甚至允许我们拥有并保留我们所收集的数据，这 也是为什么我可以制作副本并公开裹尸布的照片。 They even allowed us to own and keep the data we collected, which is why I’m permitted to make copies and make photographs of the Shroud available.
不过真正把这点说得最到位的是STURP团队成员约翰·海勒博士，他也已经不在了。 But the STURP team member who really put it into the right words was Dr. John Heller, also gone now.
他在1983年写的一本关于我们团队的书中更加生动地表达了这一点，我想引用他的话。 He put it far more eloquently in his 1983 book about our team, and I’m just going to quote him.
他说：「尽管人们一直以为科学和宗教之间会发生冲突，但根本没有发生。 He said, Though it was believed that there would be a confrontation between science and religion, none occurred.
相反，这两者的关系是和谐并且相辅相成的。」 Rather, the relationship was harmonious and synergistic.
因此，我们的团队从来没有与都灵方面的权威人士或整个信仰界发生过冲突。 So, there was never a conflict between our team and the authorities in Turin or faith in general.
我相信，这也是我们团队最终能够取得成功的一个重要原因。 Now, I’m sure that’s an important part of why our team, in the end, was so successful.
然而，到头来，我觉得自己多少算是在科学研究中宗教自由的一个活生生的例子。 Now, in the end, however, I consider myself kind of a living example of religious freedom in scientific research.
在我参与裹尸布研究的三十五年里，不仅是基督徒，连穆斯林和犹太人也都对我非常尊敬。 In my thirty-five-year involvement with the Shroud, I’ve always been treated with great respect by not only Christians, but Muslims and Jews alike.
所有人都对我的立场表现出理解和体谅——这在某种程度上确实比较特别。 All have shown an understanding and a consideration of my position—somewhat unique, I might add.
甚至在电视节目和广播节目中和我辩论的无神论者和 持怀疑态度的人，也多少对我表示一定程度的尊重。 And even the atheists and skeptics that I often debate on TV shows and radio shows show a grudging respect for me.
我想他们也慢慢明白我只是说出事实。 I guess they have come to understand that I’m only telling the truth.
具有讽刺意味的是，我现在还在雅典学院教一门课。 Ironically, I now teach a course at the Athenaeum.
想象一下——一个犹太人，正在给未来的祭司讲授都灵裹尸布！ Imagine that—a Jewish man teaching future priests about the Shroud of Turin!
谢谢你，盖拉神父；我知道你就在现场——就是你组织了这场活动。 Thanks, Father Gera; I know you’re out there somewhere—the man who organized this event.
虽然他确实到我家里住了三天，观察我，我很确定这点，你们可以以后问他。 Although he did come to my house and spend three days there checking me out, I’m sure he did, and you can ask him later.
总之，但这个故事并没有就此结束。 Anyway, but the story doesn’t really end there.
在我建立了这个网站，并且公开声明自己根据科学证据相 信裹尸布是真实的之后不久，人们开始问我一个新问题。 Shortly after building the website and stating publicly that I believed the Shroud was authentic based on the scientific evidence, people started asking me a new question.
你们知道那个问题是什么吗？ And you know what that question was?
「你相信什么？」 What do you believe?
他们问的是我的信仰。 They were asking about my faith.
嗯，在我五十岁的时候，我第一次作为一个成年人被迫正视自己对神的看法。 Well, at age fifty, I was forced for the first time as an adult to confront my own beliefs about God.
我十三岁时就离开了犹太教的传统。 I’d walked away from Judaism when I was thirteen.
这就是我——这是我举行成年礼时的照片，你们知道，就是母亲们一直挂在墙上的那种。 That’s me—that’s my bar mitzvah picture, you know, the one that mothers hang on their walls to this day.
五十五年过去了，它还挂在我母亲的墙上。 Fifty-five years later, it’s still hanging on my mother’s wall.
但在我十三岁的时候，我离开了犹太教，不曾回头看过。 But at age thirteen, I walked away from Judaism and never looked back.
神并没有在我的生活中占据位置；我甚至从来没有想过宗教的问题。 God was not a part of my life; I never even thought about religion.
现在，在我五十岁的时候，我不得不去面对自己在大半成人阶段都在回避的东西。 Now, at age fifty, I was being forced to confront that which I had avoided most of my adult life.
我是在一个非常传统的正统派犹太家庭长大的——我的父母都是在波兰出生， 祖父母和我们同住，家里有两套餐具、两套银器——典型的正统派犹太家庭。 I was raised in a very traditional Orthodox Jewish home—both my parents born in Poland, grandparents lived with us, two sets of dishes, two sets of silverware—Orthodox Jewish home.
所以我第一次开始审视自己内心。 And so I had to look in my own heart for the first time.
我过去否定了这些东西，但这次我真的探究了自己的内心， 令我震惊的是，神一直在那里，只等我去发现并承认他。 I had rejected all that before, but I did look into my heart, and to my shock, I found that God had been there all along, just waiting for me to look and acknowledge Him.
于是明白了这一点之后，我重新找回了自己的信仰。 So with that knowledge, I rediscovered my own faith.
这花了多少年呢，五十年？ It only took, what, fifty years?
我想迟到总比不到好吧。 Better late than never, I guess.
而且我至今觉得难以置信的是，三十五年已经过 去，现在大家都称我为都灵裹尸布方面的专家。 And it’s still hard for me to believe that thirty-five years have passed, and now I’m called an expert on the Shroud of Turin.
这到底是怎么发生的？ How did that happen?
这并不是我的想法。 This was not my idea.
我并没有决定要去做这件事。 I didn’t decide to do this.
就像我之前说的，我是被连拖带拉进来的；我并不想做这件事。 Like I said earlier, I was dragged along kicking and screaming; I didn’t want to do this.
然而，现在我就在梵蒂冈，面对这么多听众讲话——不可思议！ And yet, here I am, I’m standing in the Vatican addressing this audience—unbelievable!
当然，这些年来，都灵裹尸布把我带到了我从来没想过会去的地方。 Of course, over the years, the Shroud has brought me to places I never thought I would be.
去年，我在波兰我母亲出生的那个小村庄里，讲解了都灵裹尸布。 Last year, I lectured on the Shroud of Turin in the little village in Poland where my mother was born.
具有讽刺意味的是，那座波兰的小村庄里有一座小 小的公教会教堂，而我母亲七岁就离开了那里。 Now ironically, that little village in Poland has this little Catholic church, and my mother left at age seven.
当我在去那个村子寻找我的根之前，我问她：「你对那个村子还记得什么吗？」 When I asked her before I went to that village to kind of find my roots, I said, What do you remember of that village?
而那个小女孩——那个犹太小女孩——她对波兰Wiśni ce小村庄最美好的记忆就是那座在河边的公教会教堂。 And that little girl—that little Jewish girl—her fondest recollection of the little village of Wiśnice in Poland was the Catholic church that was down by the river.
因此，去年我就在那座教堂里作了讲座，然后打电话给她。 So last year, I lectured in that church and called her.
我问：「你猜我现在在哪儿？」 I said, Where do you think I am?
她说：「你在波兰。」 She said, You're in Poland.
我说：「不，但是具体在哪里呢？」 I said, No, but where specifically?
她说：「我不知道啊。」 Well, I don't know.
我说：「我就在你记得的那座小教堂里。」 I said, I'm in that little church that you remember.
多么奇妙的机会啊！ What an awesome opportunity!
然而，如果没有都灵裹尸布，这一切都不会发生。 And yet, none of that could have happened if it weren't for the Shroud of Turin.
今年稍晚的时候，我将首次前往耶路撒冷。 Later this year, I'm going to make my first trip to Jerusalem.
多年来，我的朋友和同事一直对我说：「巴里，你什么时候去以色列？」 Now, for years, my friends and colleagues have all said to me, Barry, when are you going to go to Israel?
而我的回答总是一样：「如果神想让我去，他会安排的。」 And my answer has always been the same: if God wants me to go, He'll arrange it.
好，现在说来有点讽刺，但我要先提一下。 Well, ironically, I'm going to jump ahead.
具有讽刺意味的是，你们猜是谁安排了这件事？ Ironically, guess who’s the one who arranged it?
现在，一个犹太人第一次去圣地，结果是由一位公 教会的神父安排的，这不是很具有讽刺意味吗？ Now, isn't it ironic for a Jew to go to the Holy Land for the first time in his life, and it's arranged by a Catholic priest?
而且还不是随便哪个公教会的神父——就是那一位！ Well, not just any Catholic priest—that one!
我很荣幸能成为其中的一员，古埃拉神父是我的朋友和弟兄，他促成了我来到这里。 So I'm really honored to be a part of that, and Father Guerra is my friend and my brother and is responsible for bringing me here.
现在，我真心相信，只有神才会想到去挑选一个对耶稣没有任何情感连结、 彻底持怀疑态度、而且态度还相当负面的犹太人，把他放在那个团队里。 Now, I truly believe that only God would think to choose a Jewish man who had no emotional attachment to Jesus, who was a total skeptic, and with a pretty negative attitude, I might add, and put him on that team.
具有讽刺意味的是，我小时候就学到犹太人是被拣选的子民。 Now, ironically, I’d learned as a child that the Jews were a chosen people.
从小我就听说过这个。 I've heard that since I was a little kid.
我以前从没觉得自己如何特殊，但现在我有这种感觉了——是因为这块裹尸布。 I never felt very chosen, but now I do—because of the Shroud.
这是我人生中第一次真正明白。 For the first time in my life, I get it.
然而，神对我的要求非常简单——「巴里，你只要讲真话就好」。 And yet, all God asked me to do—and it was very simple—was tell the truth, Barry.
如果神对我说：「巴里，你去编故事说服人们相信裹尸布是真实的」，那我肯定失败了。 Now, if God had said to me, Barry, go out and make up stories to convince people that the Shroud's authentic, I would have failed.
两年前在不列颠哥伦比亚省的温哥华，我在一场 即席两小时演讲结束后，有位先生走过来找我。 In Vancouver, British Columbia, two years ago, a gentleman came up after one of my lectures—one of my extemporaneous two-hour lectures, I might add.
他看着我的眼睛，说：「史华兹先生，你的演讲很精彩，不过你绝对说服不了我。 He looked me right in the eye and said, Mr. Schwartz, that was a great lecture, you know, but you’ll never convince me.
我也看着他的眼睛，说：「你为什么会觉得我在乎你相信什么呢？ I looked him right in the eye and I said, What makes you think I even care what you believe?
那是你和神之间的事。 That’s between you and God.
去和他交流。 Take it up with Him.
在那一刻我意识到，想要说服别人这个念头并不好。 And so that’s when I realized that the idea of trying to convince people is not a good idea.
当然，我相信在早期我也许尝试过这么做，但如 今我只是把事实摆出来，让人们自己作决定。 Now, I’m sure in the early days I probably tried, but now I just put the facts out there and let people decide for themselves.
现在，我通常都会在结束演讲时回答一个问题，也就是我开头提过的问 题：「像我这样的犹太人，怎么会参与到基督教最重要的圣物之中？」 Now, I usually end my lectures by answering the question that I posed kind of at the beginning: what’s a Jewish man like me doing involved with the most important relic of Christianity?
为什么？ Why?
我花了好久才想清楚答案，但现在显而易见：神要我去做。 Well, it took me a long time to figure out the answer, but now it’s obvious: God wanted me to do it.
神好像总是挑选犹太人来当他的使者，这不是很有意思吗？ Isn’t it funny how God always seems to pick a Jew to be the messenger?
我就是那个使者。 I’m the messenger.
所以，基于这一点，我能说的是：有多少犹太人 能说自己是被都灵裹尸布带回对神的信仰的？ So with that thought, all I can say is: how many Jews can claim that it was the Shroud of Turin that brought them back to their faith in God?
我可以这么说！ I can!
所以，我也只能说：如果我都不能算是宗教自由和 科学研究的一个例子，那我不知道还有谁能算。 So with that, all I can say is: if I’m not an example of religious freedom and scientific research, I don’t know what is.
谢谢你们！ Thank you!
谢谢你，巴里！ Thank you, Barry!