谢谢，谢谢，谢谢大家观看。 Thank you, thank you, thank you for watching.
谢谢！ Thank you!
我很高兴能在星期四的晚上来到这里。 I am thrilled to be here on a Thursday evening.
等到各位观众收看时，就会是星期六的晚上了。 By the time you, the audience, are watching, it will be a Saturday evening.
我与我亲爱的朋友德拉加尼执事同在，也有另一位挚友与我一同参与。 I’m joined by my dear friend Father Deacon Dragani, and I am also joined by another dear friend of mine.
这是我第一次邀请他参与，我对此感到非常兴奋。 It’s my very first time having him on, and I’m thrilled to have him on.
大家都叫他拜占庭司各脱：也就是我的朋友基甸。 Everybody knows him by the name Byzantine Scotist: my friend Gideon.
先生们，今晚过得怎么样？ Gentlemen, how are you all this evening?
我很好，谢谢你邀请我来，威廉！ Doing great, thank you for having me on, William!
我很高兴各位能一同参加，也很高兴能讨论道成肉身这个话题。 I’m thrilled to have you all on and thrilled to talk about the Incarnation.
现在，我喜欢每年做一场或多场有关道成肉身主题的节目，类似圆桌讨论的形式。 Now, I like doing one show or more every year, kind of in a roundtable format on the topic of the Incarnation.
我热爱讨论道成肉身。 I love talking about the Incarnation.
在道成肉身的话题上，我想不出有比他更好的人选来交流讨论。 I couldn’t think of a better person, a better individual to pick brains on when it comes to the topic of the Incarnation.
德拉加尼执事在神学的各个领域都做了许多了不起的工作，当然，还有基甸，他也 完成了许多令人惊叹的著作，等节目播出时，我们将在下方附上他的频道链接。 Father Deacon has done a lot of incredible work in every area of theology, and of course, Gideon, whom by the time the show airs, there will be a link to his channel down below, has done a number of incredible works.
我相信他曾在「与阿奎那共饮」系列中辩论过几次；他做了很多出色的工作。 I believe he has debated a few times in the Pints with Aquinas series; he’s done a lot of great work.
让我先从你开始，德拉加尼执事。 Let me begin with you, Father Deacon.
谈到道成肉身，我们往往在节日季节的忙乱中忽略了它。 When it comes to the Incarnation, it tends to get a little bit lost in the shuffle of the holiday season that we’re in at times.
道成肉身对于基督徒来说有多关键、多重要？ How vital and important is the Incarnation when it comes to being a Christian?
是的，就像你说的，它在节日季节常常被忽略， 而在我们谈论救恩时，道成肉身也常常被遗漏。 Yeah, like you said, it gets lost in the shuffle during the holiday season, but also oftentimes when we talk about salvation, the Incarnation gets lost in the shuffle as well.
在谈到救恩时，人们往往只关注受难和复活。 There’s been a tendency to always focus on the crucifixion and the resurrection when we talk about salvation.
这种倾向由来已久。 That’s been a tendency for a long time.
我们会谈到受难、代赎之死、复活，但却忘记道成肉身和它们一样对我们的救恩至关重要。 You know, we talk about the crucifixion, the atoning death, the resurrection, but we forget that the Incarnation is just as vital to our salvation as the other two.
实际上，这三方面是相互配合的。 Really, those three things work together.
若没有道成肉身，我们就没有救恩。 Without the Incarnation, we don’t have salvation.
还有一个有趣的观察：如果你查看尼西亚信经，救恩一词是在哪里出现的呢？ And you know, an interesting observation: if you look at the Nicene Creed, where does the word salvation appear?
在「为我们人类和为了我们的救恩，他成为人」这句话中，对吗？ In the phrase, For us men and for our salvation, he became man, right?
所以道成肉身与救恩密切相关，而这往往被人忽视了。 So the Incarnation is very much linked to salvation, and that often gets lost in the shuffle.
非常非常好的观点，先生，我很感激你提到这一点。 Very, very good point, sir, and I appreciated that.
深入研究那信经时，人们往往没有真正注意到所说的内容。 Really digging into the Creed there, it tends to get people to not really pay attention to what is being said.
说得好，先生！ Very good point, sir!
现在，有一个领域我阅读并研究很多，因为我和我的朋友基甸一样，是忠实的拥趸— —我对伟大的真福邓斯·司各脱，尤其是他对道成肉身的见解，怀有深厚的敬意。 Now, one area where I've read a lot and done a lot of digging in, because I am, like my friend Gideon, a massive devotee— I have a great devotion to the great Blessed Duns Scotus and what he has to say, in particular, about the Incarnation.
我发现这非常引人入胜，也真正凸显了我们的主对受造物的伟大爱。 I’ve found it to be incredibly fascinating, really central to pointing out the great love that our Lord truly has for His creation.
那么，基甸，当你整体上看待道成肉身时，你有什么想法吗？ Now, Gideon, when you approach the Incarnation generally, what thoughts do you have?
如果你对伟大的邓斯·司各脱在道成肉身方面的看法有所见解，也请随意分享。 And if you have any thoughts on what the great Don Scotus believed in terms of the Incarnation, feel free to share whatever you have in your mind.
是的，对司各脱来说，有一种归于他的著名主张，被称为「基督的绝对首要地位」。 Yeah, so for Scotus, there’s a famous belief attributed to him she held called the Absolute Primacy of Christ.
现在，许多人并不了解司各脱所说的基督的绝对首要地位究竟是什么。 Now, a lot of people miss what actually is the Absolute Primacy of Christ for Scotus.
所以司各脱在某个地方讨论过，如果亚当和夏娃没有犯罪 ，神是否仍会成为人？他给出的答案是神依然会成为人。 So Scotus, at one point, is discussing whether or not God would have become man if Adam and Eve had not sinned, and he answers that God still would have become man.
但那本身还不是绝对首要地位。 But that itself is not the Absolute Primacy.
我认为更深刻的东西才是绝对首要地位，也就是基督在神的旨意中是最先被决定的。 Something I think far more profound is the Absolute Primacy, which is that Christ is the first intended in God's will.
神在其内决意爱自己，但现在，如果我们考虑他 在他自身以外的旨意，他所要的秩序是什么呢？ God willed to love Himself ad intra, but now, if we're considering His will outside of Himself, what order does He will in?
他指出，他不会为了较小的目标去意愿更大的事，对吗？ And he says, well, He’s not going to will something greater for something lesser, right?
我不会为了获得某种税收优惠而生个儿子。 I’m not going to will to have a son so that I can get some sort of tax benefit from it.
你知道，那将是一种非常紊乱的意愿方式。 You know, that would be a very disordered way of willing.
我会为了较小的目的去意愿更大的事。 I’d be willing something greater for something lesser.
但神的意愿却是最有秩序的，不是吗？ But God wills in a most orderly way, right?
我们可能因自己的情感而带着不纯的动机去行善，但神会以最完美的秩序来意愿。 We might, because of our passions, have bad incentives for doing good things, but God is going to will in the perfect order.
于是他说，我们都知道，对吗？ And so, he says, we know, right?
神本不需要道成肉身，但我们从历史事实中知道他确实自愿道成肉身了。 God didn’t have to become incarnate, but we know from the facts of history that He freely did become incarnate.
那么，既然他确实道成肉身了，在他的旨意中，这个决定是按什么次序发生的呢？ So, considering the fact that He did become incarnate, in what order in His will did that decision happen?
难道是说，他先决定创造宇宙，创造人，然后看到人犯罪 ，看到必须有对罪的补救方法，于是他才选择成为人吗？ Did He first will to create the universe, to create man, then He saw that man sinned, He saw there needed to be a remedy for sin, and then He chose to become man?
所以他说，不，那会是本末倒置。 So he says no, that would be the wrong way around.
神首先定意道成肉身，然后考虑对道成肉身来说什么是最伟大的。 God first wills the Incarnation, then what would be greatest for the Incarnation?
必须要有一位母亲来生下圣子，所以他定意了马利亚。 There has to be a mother to give birth to the Son, so He wills Mary.
接着，他由此展开，并且定意了所有受造物，好让整个受造界成为基督的所在。 Then He, from there, goes on and wills all of creation so that all of creation can be this place for Christ.
他定意基督为教会之首，然后看到人犯罪，也就差遣基督来拯救人脱离罪。 He wills Christ as the head of the Church, then He sees that man sins, and so He sends Christ also to save man from sin.
不过，他首先定意的就是基督。 But He first wills Christ.
所以回到第一点——何谓绝对首要地位，不只是在于就算人从未犯罪，神也会成为人。 So, going back to this first point of what is the Absolute Primacy, it’s not merely that God would have become man even if man had never sinned.
那确实是从绝对首要地位推导出来的结论，但绝对首要地位本身是 一个美妙的观点：所有受造物的存在都是为了基督而被定意的。 That follows from the Absolute Primacy, but the Absolute Primacy itself is this beautiful idea that all of creation is willed for the sake of Christ.
我想指出，这个主张在司各脱之后其实被广泛接受，即便那些在「幸亏之罪」这个问题 上与司各脱针锋相对的人，也大多接受了他的观点——无论基督是否因罪而道成肉身。 I want to point out that this belief actually was generally accepted after Scotus, even by people very opposed to Scotus on the view of the Felix Culpa, whether Christ would have become incarnate if not for sin.
因此，撒尔曼派和加尔默罗派的托马斯主义者——他们后来大多形成了 标准的托马斯立场——实际上也承认司各脱在绝对首要地位这一点上是 正确的，尽管他们仍不愿接受「即使没有罪，神也会成为人」的看法。 So, the Salmantic and Carmelite Thomists, who generally adopted what ended up becoming sort of the standard Thomist position, actually conceded that Scotus was correct on the Absolute Primacy, even if they still weren’t willing to adopt that God would have become man even if it wasn’t for sin.
现在，让我就邓斯·司各脱的这项神学观点来请教 一下你，基甸：关于基督是否会依然道成肉身。 Now let me pick your brain a little bit there, Gideon, in terms of the theology put forth by Duns Scotus that Christ would have still come incarnate.
你也是这样认为的吗？ Do you hold to that as well?
是的，我认为从经文的教导来看，这非常非常清楚。 Yeah, I think it’s very, very clear from the teachings of the Scriptures.
我觉得，如果你查看歌罗西书第一章、以弗所书第一章或彼得前书一章二 十节，这些经文都很清楚地说明，基督在神的旨意中是首先被定意的。 I think if you look at passages like Colossians chapter 1, or Ephesians chapter 1, or 1 Peter 1:20, all of these passages very clearly state that Christ was willed first in the intention of God's will.
事实上，在彼得前书一章二十节也说到在世界创立以前。 And actually, in 1 Peter 1:20, it says before the foundation of the world.
我最近一直在研究「创世以来」这个说法。 I’ve actually been doing a study recently on this phrase, the foundation of the world.
据我所知，我在深入研究新约之前的希腊文资料，试图看看这个 词组是否曾经出现过，但尚未发现先于新约时期使用的例子。 As far as I can tell, I’m trying to do a deeper study to see if it ever comes up before the New Testament, and I have not found any examples of it being used in Greek before the New Testament.
不过它在新约出现了十次，而且最先是在基督传道时使用的。 But it comes up ten times in the New Testament, and it’s first used by Christ within His ministry.
如果我没记错的话，他在传道中用了三次。 It’s used, if I remember correctly, three times within His ministry.
另外七次则出现在书信和启示录中。 And then another seven times, both in the Epistles and in the Book of Revelation.
因此很明显，使徒们是在基督传道时首先阐明的这套神学上继续发 挥；希腊文中这个词组是kataboles kosmos。 So clearly, the apostles are drawing on this theology first laid out by Christ in His ministry, and the phrase is kataboles kosmos in Greek.
与kataboles kosmos搭配的介词有两种。 There are two different prepositions that we find with kataboles kosmos.
一个是pro，表示「在……之前」，另一个是apo，表示「从……」。 We find pro, which means before, and we find apo, which means from.
而「从创世以来」并不一定代表刚好就是世界开始那一刻。 Now, from the foundation of the world doesn’t necessarily have to entail actually at the very beginning of the world.
比如，基督在传道时曾说过，亚伯的血是「从创世以来」就被流的。 For example, at one point in His ministry, Christ says that the blood of Abel was shed from the foundation of the world.
显然，亚伯的时候已经是世界被造后若干年，但依然用「创世以来」来指代那个时间点。 Clearly, some number of years after the creation of the world at the time of Abel was still from the foundation.
不过我们也看到了「在创世以前」这个词组，如我所说的，它出现了三次。 But we also find this phrase before the foundation of the world, which is used three times, as I said.
其中一次是基督自己说，圣父在创世以前就已经爱了他。 One of those times is Christ saying that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world.
这比「从创世以来」的含义要更为强烈。 This is a much stronger sense than from the foundation of the world.
我们也在彼得前书一章二十节看到这一点。让我从彼得前书给大家读这节经文，让大家 明白我在说什么：「基督在创世以前是预先被神知道的，却在这末世才为你们显现」。 We also find that in 1 Peter 1:20. Let me read this verse from 1 Peter so people can get a sense of what I’m talking about here: He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.
所以，神在世界创立以前就预定了道成肉身。 So, God, before the foundation of the world, predestined the Incarnation.
这与圣父爱圣子的那个时间范畴相同。 It’s in the same sort of time in which the Father loved the Son.
也就是说，神的旨意很早就定意了这件事。 It says very early on in the intention of God's will, He willed it.
但当时并不为人所知，对吗？ But this was unknown, right?
有些教父认为这曾启示给天使，也有人认为没有启示给天使。 Some Fathers seem to think that this was revealed to the angels; others seem to think it wasn’t revealed to the angels.
不过至少在人方面，直到基督降临之前，这个奥秘都不曾向人揭示。 But at the very least, it was not revealed to man until the coming of Christ that there was this secret implanted within the world.
基督另一次使用这说法，则是他在引用诗篇第82篇的时候，如果我没记错的话。 Another time Christ uses it is when He’s quoting from Psalm 82, if I remember correctly.
他说，那些自创世以来隐藏的事，如今正在被显明出来。 He says that these things that were hidden from the foundation of the world are now being revealed.
看起来这个奥秘从一开始就被神所定意。 It seems like this mystery was willed by God from the very beginning.
保罗也在以弗所书第一章中提到，众圣徒的预定是在创世以前。 St. Paul also says in Ephesians chapter 1 that the predestination of the saints was before the foundation of the world.
因此，圣父爱圣子，他定意圣子道成肉身，也预 定教会以基督为首——这一切都在创世以前。 So the Father loves the Son, He wills the Son to become incarnate, and He wills the predestination of the Church with Christ as its head—all before the foundation of the world.
我认为，我们在这些新约经文里得到了一个极为深刻的教导，告诉 我们神创造时的旨意，以及这一切是如何在救恩史中得以展现的。 I think we’re getting this very profound teaching on God’s will and God’s intention in creating and how this was made manifest in salvation history in these verses in the New Testament.
我常常觉得有趣的是，在新约里，基督和使徒们有时会 说一些话，好像他们所谈的道成肉身是显而易见的。 I often think it’s interesting how in the New Testament, Christ and the apostles will say stuff almost like what I’m saying about the Incarnation is obvious.
而我们去读这些经文时会想：这哪里显而易见呢？ And we go and we read these sorts of passages and think, how in the world is this sort of thing obvious?
但对他们而言，一旦他们深刻理解了经文和神的旨意（这是圣灵所 灌注的），他们回头看就能说：「噢，这当然是显而易见的！」 But to them, once they got a deep understanding of the Scriptures and God's will, which had been infused in them by the Holy Spirit, they were able to look back and say, oh, of course it’s obvious!
道成肉身必须发生；这是万事得以成就的唯一方式。 The Incarnation had to happen; this is the only way everything could have happened.
没有其他更恰当的方式。 There’s no other way that would be fitting.
基甸，你的观点太精彩了——非常棒的看法！ Incredible points there, Gideon—great, great points!
德拉加尼执事，有什么想补充的吗？ Father Deacon, anything to add to that?
噢，当然有！ Oh, absolutely!
是的，我想补充几点。 I do, yes.
首先，我不像你那样熟悉邓斯·司各脱，基甸。 So, first of all, I’m not as familiar with Duns Scotus as you are, Gideon.
我之前并不知道那是他的观点——道成肉身从一开始就是神的计划。 I was not aware that that was his viewpoint—that the Incarnation was always the plan.
我觉得这很有意思，因为这是大多数东方教父的共同看法。 I find that fascinating because that’s very much the perspective of the majority of the Eastern Church Fathers.
他们明确指出，无论亚当和夏娃有无犯罪，道成肉身自起初就是神的安排。 They’re very clear on the idea that whether or not Adam and Eve had sinned, the Incarnation was the plan from the beginning.
有一位教父对此论述得很出色，就是叙利亚的圣以撒。 One Church Father that did a beautiful job explaining this is St. Isaac the Syrian.
叙利亚的圣以撒从约翰福音出发说，道成肉身是因为爱——因为神的爱。 St. Isaac the Syrian, who’s pulling from the Gospel of John, said the Incarnation happened because of love—because of God’s love.
道成肉身一直是神的计划，这正是它实现的原因。 The Incarnation was always the plan, and that’s why it occurred.
它并不是对亚当和夏娃犯罪的回应；不是什么应对之举；它从一开始就已是既定计划。 It was not a response to Adam and Eve’s sin; it was not a response; it was the plan from the get-go.
同样，你也可以在忏悔者圣玛克西姆、圣亚他拿 修以及纳齐安的圣贵格利那里看到同样的观点。 And again, you find that in Saint Maximus the Confessor, you find that in Saint Athanasius, Saint Gregory Nazianzus—they all take the same approach.
你要知道，一种理解方式是：如果你留意创世记的创造叙事，它 的布局和结构在许多方面都反映了古代世界建造神庙的方式。 And you know, one way of looking at it is this: If you look at the creation account in the Book of Genesis, the way it’s laid out, if you look at the structure of it, in many ways it reflects how temples were built in the ancient world.
古人建造神庙的过程通常是先把神庙建好，然后建好后，再把神像或者神放进去。 You know, the process of building a temple—and typically what would happen was the temple would be built, and then, when it was finished, the god would be placed within it.
如果你看创世叙事的结构，它就是神在建造一座神庙。 If you look at the way the creation narrative is structured, it’s God building a temple.
他在建造这个神庙，而这个神庙在等待神自己被放置其中。 He’s building a temple, but that temple is waiting for God to be put inside of it, to be placed in it.
计划就是圣子将取了人的肉身，他就是那要进入这神庙的神。 The plan is that God the Son will take on human flesh, and He will be the God inside the temple.
这庙是为他而建造的，所以这个世界实际上就是一座 容纳神的神庙——在此容纳取了人性之身体的圣子。 It’s being built to house Him, so this world is really a temple being built to house God—God the Son in human flesh.
因此，道成肉身从起初——甚至在起初以前——就是既定的计划。 So, the Incarnation was always the plan from day one—or before day one.
太美妙了！ Beautiful!
是的，进一步说，如果有人质疑教父们是否如德拉加尼执事所说，我极力推荐多明尼 克·翁格尔神父的文章。他是二十世纪早期的司各脱学者——一位美国司各脱学者。 Yeah, building on that, if people are doubting that the Church Fathers taught what Father Deacon just said, I would highly recommend the articles of Father Dominic Unger, who was a Scotist—an American Scotist—in the early 20th century.
他撰写了相当多的详尽文章，证明教父们都阐述过基督的绝对首要地位。 He wrote quite a number of detailed articles showing that the Church Fathers all taught the Absolute Primacy.
我记得他专门有一篇谈到叙利亚的圣以撒。 I think he actually has one on St. Isaac the Syrian even.
而且他当时能参考的资料远少于我们现在掌握的 ，因为他写这批文章是在二十世纪四十年代。 He’s also working with a lot fewer sources than we have now because he's writing these in the 1940s.
在那篇关于忏悔者圣玛克西姆的文章中，他整整用好几页论 证，按照这位圣人的看法，基督是整个受造界的最终因。 In the one on Saint Maximus, he goes on for many pages to argue that Christ is the final cause of all of creation according to Saint Maximus.
他当时手边只有《答塔拉西乌斯问难》，却未能见到《疑难集》，若是看 过《疑难集》，这一点就会更加清楚，以至于不必费多少笔墨去论证。 All he has is the Responses to Thalassius, and he doesn't have the Ambigua, which would have made this incredibly clear and wouldn’t have needed detailed argumentation.
但是他仅凭那些有限的资料就能够获得如此多的洞见，实在令人惊叹。 But it’s just amazing how much insight he was able to get from so little.
如果人们想阅读那些文章，JSTOR上可以免费阅读。你可以 注册一个免费账号，虽然无法下载，但都可以免费在线阅读。 And if people want to read those articles, they’re actually all free on JSTOR. You can make a free account; you can’t download the articles, but you can read them all for free on there.
是的，尤其是忏悔者圣玛克西姆，他在《答塔拉西乌斯问难》中有一段 特别精彩的论述，塔拉西乌斯问他——我想是塔拉西乌斯吧，也许我把 名字搞错了，总之他在回答这个问题：道成肉身的根本原因是什么？ So yeah, especially with St. Maximus, who has this beautiful passage in all the Responses to Thalassius where Thalassius is asking him— I think it’s Thalassius; I’m probably butchering his name there; I can always mix up the order of his name— he is responding to, but he is asking essentially what is the reason for the Incarnation?
忏悔者圣玛克西姆的回答是：「这是自亘古隐藏的奥秘，却从一开始就已被定意。」 And St. Maximus says, “This was the mystery that was hidden from all the ages but intended from the very beginning.”
在忏悔者圣玛克西姆的另一部著作《爱德百章》中，他在一个地方说：「不 要考虑为什么神选择在某一个时间点创造，而不是另一个时间点」，对吗？ In another spot in St. Maximus' writings—in the “Centuries on Charity”—he has one spot where he says, “Don’t consider why God made at one time rather than another,” right?
关于神如何超越时间的这个奥秘，实在超出我们的理解。若想搞清楚，只会让我们抓狂。 This mystery of how it could be that God is outside of time—that’s so beyond us; we’re just going to be driven insane by trying to figure it out.
但他又说：「要问的是神为什么创造。」 But he says, “Do ask why God created.”
而在《爱德百章》中，他并未回答这个问题。 He doesn’t answer the question in the “Centuries on Charity.”
要等我们去看他在《答难经文》中所写的内容时才会得到答案 ：那就是从万古以来一直围绕着基督，我们要默想这个真理。 It’s only if you go to his work in the Responses on Scripture that you get the answer—that it’s Christ from all the ages that we have to meditate on that truth.
再者，就刚才提到的神庙话题而言，十七世纪的司各脱学派对此也有一些相似的观点。 Also, then on the discussion of the temple, it’s very interesting that there are some parallels on this within 17th-century Scotism.
安杰洛·沃尔皮是一位十七世纪著名的司各脱学者，他研 究了基督的三重职分——他的祭司职、王权和先知职。 So, Angelo Volpi was a famous 17th-century Scotist, and he was working on the three offices of Christ—His priesthood, His kingship, and His prophethood.
我对他就王权和先知职的见解研究不多，不过关于祭司职的部 分，我也是参考了杰瑞德·高夫的研究，所以要归功于他。 I have not researched as much into what he said on the kingship or the prophethood, but on the priesthood, I’m drawing this also from Jared Goff, so full credit to him on this.
沃尔皮在整合圣文德与司各脱在这个主题上的看法。 Volpi is synthesizing what Bonaventure and Scotus say on the topic.
圣文德论及圣子如何在三位一体中成为中保：圣子出于圣父，而圣灵同时出于圣父与圣子。 Bonaventure discusses how the Son is the mediating term in the Trinity—that the Son comes from the Father, and the Spirit from both Father and Son.
从某种意义上说，圣子就是三位一体当中的那个中介。 So, in some sense, the Son is this middle term within the Trinity.
他以此作为基督永恒祭司职的依据。 He uses this as a basis for the eternal priesthood of Christ.
随后他引用司各脱的思想，提出整个世界都是为了道成肉身而被造。 Then he brings in Scotus and introduces the idea that the whole world is made for the Incarnation.
因此，从某种意义上说，整个世界就像是一座为圣子 而建的圣殿，因为圣子在三位一体中是永恒的祭司。 So, in some sense, then, the whole world is made as a temple for the Son, because the Son is the eternal priest within the Trinity.
沃尔皮当时进行这些研究时，并没有依靠现代关于古代近东圣殿和会幕的学术研究。 Volpi was doing this without any of the modern scholarship on ancient Near Eastern temples and the tabernacle.
如果你去读近代以前那些关于会幕的评注，你会 发现他们确实试图探讨这些，但遇到很多困难。 If you go try and read commentaries from like before the modern world on the tabernacle, you can tell they’re trying to get at it, but there are just a lot of issues.
他们当时并没有我们如今所具备的那种深度研究。 They don’t have the depth of scholarship that we now have on it.
然而，如今我们拥有非常深入的研究，尤其是在这些文本的希伯来文方面，因为 如果不仔细留意希伯来词汇，创世记第一章和会幕之间的许多关联就会被忽略。 But we now have very deep scholarship, especially on the Hebrew of these texts, because a lot of the connections between Genesis 1 and the tabernacle are going to be missed unless you’re paying close attention to the Hebrew words.
例如，当日月星辰被安置在天上时，它们被称为天上的「光」。 For example, when the sun, moon, and stars are placed in the sky, they’re placed as lights in the sky.
在希伯来文中，用来表示这些「光」的词相当少见，却同样用于指会幕中的七 枝灯台，并且摆放在圣所——在世界的建造结构中，对应于穹苍的那个位置。 That Hebrew word for lights there is a pretty rare word, but it's used again for the seven-branched lampstand within the tabernacle, and it’s placed in the Holy Place—the same spot that would correspond to the firmament in the construction of the world.
对此可以做相当深入的探讨。 You can go quite in depth about this.
所以很有意思的是，传统早已肯定了这些关于基督的论述，并 且通过现代对圣殿的研究，在经文中得到了更深入的印证。 So it’s very interesting that the tradition has affirmed these things about Christ that have now been vindicated in more depth in the Scriptures through modern scholarship on the temple.
真是非常、非常精彩的观点！ Really, really incredible points!
你刚才还谈到了「创世以来」。 And you were talking about the foundation of the world.
我还没有查阅过《巴拿巴书》的希腊文，但我想你知道我指的那段：当中写到，他是「全 世界的主，神为他立了世界的根基：『让我们照着我们的形象、按我们的样式造人』」。 Now, I have not looked at the Greek of the Epistle of Barnabas, but I’m sure you know what I’m referring to, where we read that He is the Lord of the whole world to whom God set up the foundation of the world: “Let us make man in our image and our likeness.”
你有研究过那段经文的希腊原文吗？ Have you looked at the Greek of that?
我还没有！ I have not!
我甚至没有想到过那段内容。 I was not even thinking of that passage.
我打算一定要去研究一下，这也让我意识到，我应该更多地了解教父们对此段话的阐释。 So I’m going to absolutely research this, and that’s making me think I should have looked more into what the Fathers were saying on this phrase.
在我继续研究这个过程中，我确实需要更多去查考这方面。 As I continue to research this, I should absolutely look into that more.
我希望希腊原文能确证这个说法。 I hope the Greek does bear out.
我现在手头没有那段希腊原文，也许节目结束后我会去看看。 I do not have the Greek in front of me, but perhaps after the show, I’ll look at it.
但那确实很有意思，尤其是如果你在某些使徒时代的教父或早 期教父那里发现了相关内容，我想你很可能会发现不少关联。 But that really, really is quite fascinating, particularly if you find it in any of the Apostolic Fathers or any of the early Church Fathers, which I imagine you probably will find a decent amount of connections.
德拉加尼执事，你对基甸刚才的评论还有什么想法吗？ Father Deacon, any thoughts on any of the comments that Gideon just made?
噢，只是觉得这些都很有趣，而且我们经常并不会去深思道成肉身这一点。 Oh, just, you know, it’s fascinating stuff, and it’s one of those things we oftentimes don’t think much about the Incarnation.
我们往往把它视作理所当然。 We kind of take it for granted.
但当你钻研越深，会发现一切更加说得通。 But the deeper you delve, it makes sense of things.
这几乎就像在拼一个谜题，对吧？ It’s almost like there’s a puzzle, right?
救恩——神在整个人类历史中的作为——就是一 个庞大的拼图，而道成肉身就像那块关键拼图。 You know, salvation—God's work through human history—is a big puzzle, and the Incarnation is like the key piece.
它确实是中心的一块，只要你明白了道成肉身的意义，所有事物就能更好地契合在一起。 You know, it’s really the central piece, and once you have the Incarnation understood—understand its significance—everything fits together so much better.
是的，毫无疑问！ Yeah, without a doubt!
我们也知道，道成肉身这一点在伊斯兰教中是被否定的。 And we know that the Incarnation is denied by Islam.
有一些宗教群体否认道成肉身；但对我们的信仰而言，道成肉身确实至关重要。 You’ve got a number of religious groups that deny the Incarnation; it is really central and very important to our faith.
那么，你们提到了一些精彩的经文。其中另一个含有极其重要预言的经文是 在以赛亚书第9章，那里的话这样说：「因有一婴孩为我们而生，有一子赐 给我们；政权必担在他的肩头。他名称为『奇妙、策士、全能的神』……」 Now, one particular scripture you all talked about—a number of incredible Scriptures—another one which has an incredible prophecy is found in Isaiah 9, where it tells us, For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders, and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God.
我们知道，许多早期教父都视这段经文为预言，且确实应验了。 Now, we know that a massive amount of early Church Fathers viewed this as a prophecy that does come into fulfillment.
圣经中有很多深刻而奇妙的章节，预先指向了道成肉身。 There are a number of profound and incredible passages that foreshadow the Incarnation.
我们甚至能在次经中见到此类内容。 We even have in the Deuterocanonical texts.
基甸，你刚才简要提到翁格尔神父，对吗？ Gideon, you briefly mentioned Father Unger, right?
我相信翁格尔神父做了非常了不起的工作，特别是 在他对《创世记》及原福音内容的精彩汇编里。 I believe Father Unger has done an incredible work, particularly in his masterful compilation in Genesis on the Protoevangelium.
那部作品很独特，他真的——我的天，他究竟梳理了多 少早期教父的著作，才呈现出这样了不起的一致信仰？ There’s nothing like it of its kind, where he really— I mean, goodness, how many early Fathers does he really comb through there to show an incredible uniformity of belief?
他不仅讲到圣马利亚就是创世记第三章中那位女人 ，也提到我们的主——包括他是那女人的后裔。 There’s not only Holy Mary as being the woman of Genesis 3 but our Lord, including Him, being the seed of the woman.
他确实做了很多卓越的研究，是吧？ He’s done a lot of great work, hasn’t he?
是的，至于以赛亚书第9章的这段，我其实认为在以赛亚书第7章也能看到这主题。实际 上，从以赛亚书7章到11章都在谈到那孩子，我们也会看到这个孩子的称呼是什么。 Yeah, and on that passage in Isaiah 9, I actually think we also find it in Isaiah 7. Really, through Isaiah 7 through 11, we keep having this discussion of the child, and we see what is the child named?
他被称作「神与我们同在」。 He’s named God with us.
不过，我觉得还有更清晰的经文，不是吗？ But even more clear, I think, than this—right?
也许因为我是从犹太教背景转变而来的，尽管我从来都不是严格遵守教规的犹 太人，但我常常会琢磨，一个犹太教的反对者会对这些经文做出怎样的回应。 But maybe since I'm a convert from Judaism, even though I was never a religious Jew, it’s often in my mind to consider what might the Jewish objector respond to with these things.
现在，你也许会说：「噢，也许这是指某位圣者，可能有神的 灵在他身上，因此在这个意义上就是『神与我们同在』。」 Now, you might say, oh, maybe this is referring to someone holy who might have the Spirit of God resting upon them, and in that sense, it's God with us.
不过，在以赛亚书第59章，这个主题再次被提出。从第1 节到第15节讨论了社会没有公义，人人都行恶的情形。 But in Isaiah 59, this theme is picked up once again, and we have this whole discussion in chapter 59, verses 1 through 15. There’s this discussion of how there is no justice in society and everyone’s doing evil.
社会在各个层面都陷于崩坏之中。 Society's broken down at every level.
我们在那段经文中，从第15节开始看到，以赛亚说：「主见无人 拯救，无人代求，便甚不喜悦；他见无人，就诧异无人代求。」 We see there, starting from verse 15, Isaiah says, The Lord saw it, and it displeased Him that there was no justice; He saw that there was no man and wondered that there was no one to intercede.
其实，那里的「代求」这个词，在我所看的修订标准译本里译作「干预」，但原文希伯来 词确实是「代求」。上一次出现这个词是在以赛亚书第53章，那里提到仆人为人代求。 Well, actually, that word intercede there—it's intervene in the Revised Standard Version translation I’m looking at here—but actually, the Hebrew word there is intercede, and the last time we saw that Hebrew word used was in Isaiah 53, where the servant makes intercession.
那为我们罪而死的受苦仆人，为罪人代求。 The suffering servant, who dies for our sins, makes intercession for the transgressors.
现在我们看到，没有人能代求，因为社会中的任何人依旧活在不义之中。 Now we see that there is no man who can make intercession because we see any man there continues to be injustice.
往后读，我们面临的危机就是没有人能够带来公义。 We go on, so we have this crisis that no man can bring justice.
接着又得知没有人可以为人代求。 Then we hear that no man can make intercession.
可是，我们先前已经听说过有一位仆人会代求啊！ Well, we already heard of a man who makes intercession!
然后我们就看到，噢，神要披上战甲。 And then we see, oh, God is going to put on armor.
这段描述更像是人在穿上这些装备，所以我认为这是在预言神在道成肉身中 取了人性来施行公义，并为罪人代求，因为没有任何人可以达成这一点。 It’s the sort of description that you would have of a human putting on these things, and so I think this is a prophecy of God putting on human flesh in the Incarnation to make justice and make intercession for the transgressors because no man can achieve this.
那确实是一个非常精妙的见解，我觉得你提出了很多很好的观点。 That really, really is an incredible insight there, and I think you’ve brought up a number of great points.
以赛亚书里确实有很多重要的预言——我还真把那段给忘了！ You have a number of great prophecies in Isaiah— I had forgotten about that one!
还有，以赛亚书第7章，你说得没错。 Also, Isaiah 7, you’re right about that.
那段经文也很关键。 It’s a great one.
你是对的！ You’re correct!
我们读到：「必有童女怀孕生子，给他起名叫以马内利。」 We read, The virgin is a child shall bear a son and shall name him Immanuel.
众所周知，福音书中也引用了这节经文，这毫无 疑问是指向我们的主，也指向弥赛亚的母亲。 As we know, that is picked up in the Gospels and without a doubt referring to our Lord, referring to the mother of the Messiah as well.
非常非常好的见解！ Very, very good points there!
我想听听你对此的想法，德拉加尼执事。然后我们可以讨论大家都应该知道的——在 约翰福音第一章里的非常重要的那段经文。不过先听听你怎么想呢，德拉加尼执事？ I’d like to get your thoughts on that, Father Deacon, and then we can talk about the one that, of course, everybody should know—an incredibly important one in John 1—but maybe your thoughts there, Father Deacon?
嗯，我想先倒回去一点，谈谈刚才你说的关于伊斯兰教的那点，威廉。 Well, I wanted to back up a bit and reflect on something you said earlier, William, about Islam.
你提到伊斯兰教否认道成肉身。 You know, Islam denying the Incarnation.
这是伊斯兰教最大的问题之一——否认道成肉身。 That’s a big part of the issue with Islam—the denial of the Incarnation.
不过，如果你看看某些基督教派别，其中有些派别也倾向于弱 化道成肉身，或者不去思考道成肉身在逻辑上所带来的影响。 But also, if you look at some forms of Christianity, there’s a tendency in some varieties of Christianity to downplay the Incarnation or to not consider the logical ramifications of the Incarnation.
那么，我指的到底是什么呢？ So, what do I mean by that?
首先，我们之前谈到了救恩。 Well, first of all, we talked earlier about salvation.
有些基督教派几乎只关注受难和代赎，把救恩视为 一种法律层面的事——几乎是一种法律上的交换。 Some forms of Christianity focus almost exclusively on the Crucifixion and the atonement, and they look at salvation as being a legal thing—almost like a legal exchange.
如果你用这种方式看，道成肉身就不过是通往受难的一块垫脚石罢了。 If you approach it that way, the Incarnation is nothing more than just a stepping stone toward the Crucifixion.
在某些基督教派中确实存在这种看法。 You find that in some forms of Christianity.
同样地，如果你严肃地看待道成肉身，并真正理 解它以及它的重要性，你就会认识到一些事情。 Likewise, if you take the Incarnation seriously and you really understand it and its significance, you’re going to realize a few things.
你会认识到神是透过物质来工作的——神成为有形的、物质的生命；他取了人的肉身。 You’re going to realize that God works through matter—that God became a physical, material being; He took on human flesh.
要知道，在古代世界，大多数宗教会将物质视为不好的、灵视为好的。 You know, in the ancient world, most religions viewed matter as being bad and spirit as being good.
但在这里，我们看到神取了物质，赋予物质价值。 But here we have God taking on matter, making matter good.
如果你这么去推论，那么诸如圣事之类的事物就会更加说得通。 If you take that as a logical conclusion, things such as the sacraments make a lot more sense.
神取了物质，他成为有形的生命，并且借着物质——如饼、酒、水、油——来工作。 That God took on matter, He became a material being, and He works through material things—things like bread, wine, water, and oil.
那些否认圣事或仅将圣事视为象征性、而无任何属灵能力或 意义的基督教派，其实并没有深入思考道成肉身的影响。 Varieties of Christianity that deny the sacraments or see the sacraments as only symbolic and having no spiritual power or meaning aren’t really thinking through the ramifications of the Incarnation.
这也延伸到像图像之类的事物上。 This also continues on to things such as images.
有一些基督教派强烈反对图像——包括基督的图像或圣者的图像。 There are some forms of Christianity that are very much opposed to images—images of Christ, images of holy figures.
伊斯兰教也极力反对任何形象的描绘和任何形式的敬拜。 Islam is also very much opposed to images and any kind of worship.
但如果你想到神取了人的肉身，而且神成为一个人，那用图像来描绘他，以及描绘 圣者，其实并没有问题，因为这同样是神藉由可见的物质来工作，使人得以成圣。 But if you consider that God took on human flesh, and that God became a human being, it’s perfectly fine to depict Him in images and to depict saints in images as well because that’s also, you know, God working through physical material things, sanctifying human beings.
因此，如果真正重视道成肉身，破坏圣像的思想就行不通了。 So, iconoclasm kind of goes out the window when you really consider the Incarnation.
最后，还有关于马利亚的问题。 Finally, there’s the issue of Mary.
如果你真正严肃对待道成肉身，你会明白神取了肉身，并在某一位 特定的女子——也就是这位女子的子宫里成为与我们同样的人。 If you really take the Incarnation seriously, you’re realizing that God took on flesh and became one of us inside of the womb of a specific person—inside of the womb of this one woman.
当你这样思考时，你就会发现她就是新的约柜；因为在那里神的同在得以彰显。 When you think about that, that does make her the new Ark of the Covenant; that’s where God’s presence is found.
所以，如果你把道成肉身当作核心要点来看待，那么对马利亚的敬奉、对圣事的理解 ，以及绘制基督和圣者形象的宗教艺术——这些在道成肉身的脉络里都变得合理。 So, if you take the Incarnation seriously, things such as the veneration of Mary, things such as the sacraments, and religious artwork depicting humans and depicting Christ—all of those things make sense if you take the Incarnation seriously.
但遗憾的是，许多基督教派并没有真正地思考这一点。 But sadly, many forms of Christianity don’t really think that through.
接着德拉加尼执事所说的——谢谢，你的观点非常精彩——我想进一步谈 谈你提到的，关于马利亚，以及某些基督教派只看重主耶稣受难的现象。 And building on what Father Deacon said—thank you, that was a very wonderful point—I wanted to build on a point you made, both on Mary and on certain forms of Christianity that will place a great emphasis only on the Crucifixion.
有些新教徒会对我们关于马利亚无罪的教导提出异议，说:「噢，如果 马利亚真是无罪的，为什么不是她死在十字架上，为我们赎罪呢？」 An objection you’ll hear from some Protestants on our teaching that Mary was sinless is they’ll say, Oh, if Mary was sinless, why didn’t she die on the cross and redeem us of our sins?
「我们为什么需要基督来？」 Why do we need Christ to come?
好像只要有一个无罪的人类就够了，而不是神必须亲自成为人。 As though the only thing that was necessary is a human who happened to be sinless, not that God actually had to become man.
可一个无罪的人类之死，又怎能真正拯救我们脱离罪呢？ Well, how would a sinless human dying actually save us from our sins?
唯有神自己成为人，才能拯救我们脱离罪。 There has to be God become man in order to save us from our sins.
这确实是一个深刻的观点。 That really is a profound point.
那是个极好的观点！ That's an excellent point there!
是的，很好的观点！ Yeah, great point!
我想接着你刚才所说的，德拉加尼执事，还有基甸，你们两位都提到 很重要的观点。我们回顾早期教会历史，乃至当我们谈到伊斯兰教出 现的时期，可以看到基督论与马利亚学之间关系之紧密，真是惊人。 And to really piggyback off of what you pointed out there, Father Deacon, and even Gideon, I think they’re very important points because when we look in early Church history and even when we get to the time of Islam, how incredibly connected Christology is with Mariology.
我们发现，在那些否认我们主乃永恒之神的异端中，马利亚学和基督论都降到最低点。 You find some of the lowest Mariology and lowest Christology in those heretics who denied that our Lord was eternal God.
就像你指出的，德拉加尼执事，这一切互相紧密配合，确实令人惊叹。 It’s really incredible how it all really goes hand in hand, as you pointed out, Father Deacon.
我会想到一些特定的人物，如赫维狄、欧诺米、苏布斯 坦提努斯，以及其他那些对主的看法非常扭曲的人。 I stop and I think of particular figures like Helvidius, Eunomius, Substantinus, and other figures who had a very distorted view of our Lord.
早期教父们明确地与他们针锋相对，但这些人也有着非常糟糕的马利亚学观念，他 们否定马利亚永远童贞，因为他们根本不相信一位卑微的使女会永远保持童贞。 The early Fathers were very clearly squarely against them, but they also had very poor Mariology in terms of denying the perpetual virginity of Mary because they simply didn't think it was possible that a humble maidservant could have remained a perpetual virgin.
所以这两者确实是相互关联的，我认为应该指出这点，因为我和很多伊斯兰学者对话过。 So it really does go hand in hand, and I think it’s important to point out because I've dialogued with a number of Islamic scholars.
我知道基甸在伊斯兰研究方面做了很多工作，德拉加尼执事也是如此。 I know Gideon has done a lot of work within Islam, and Father Deacon as well.
有不少人告诉过我——事实上，一两年前我和沙比尔·阿里博士一起做过一 场节目——他说，其实在关于马利亚的问题上，我们能认同很多共同点。 I’ve had a number of them tell me—in fact, I did a show with Dr. Shabir Ally perhaps about a year or two ago—where he told me, you know, there’s a lot we can affirm about Mary that we agree upon.
「例如，我们完全同意马利亚是永远童贞，还有不少穆斯林（包 括我自己）也相信——」他说，「相信马利亚被提升到天上。」 You know, we have no problem agreeing upon Mary as perpetual virgin, and there are a number of Muslims as well, including myself, that believe—he said—that believe that Mary was assumed into heaven.
不过，最根本的差异依旧在于他们否认道成肉身。 But the clear disconnect will always be the fact that they deny the Incarnation.
如果否认道成肉身，他们自然也会否认马利亚是神之母。 If they deny the Incarnation, they’re going to deny Mary as Mother of God.
所以这在伊斯兰教里显然是相互关联的，也是十分棘手的问题。 So that’s clearly connected and very clearly problematic within Islam.
你会听到他们对神如何进入他自己所造的世界心存极 大疑惑，好像这是骇人、可憎并且不可能的事情。 You’ll hear them have a big problem with how God can ever come into His own creation, as if that is just horrific, abhorrent, and impossible.
基甸，你曾经遇到过这样的反应吗？ Gideon, have you ever encountered that?
我没有在伊斯兰研究上投入太多，但我认为这是他们对马利亚看法上一个严重的问题。 I have not done too much work on Islam, but I think this is a serious issue in terms of their view of Mary.
马特·弗拉德曾经和雅各·伊玛目做过一个不错 的访谈，他是我的朋友，也是一位前穆斯林。 There was a good interview Matt Fradd did with Jacob Imam, who’s a friend of mine and a former Muslim.
雅各·伊玛目指出，在伊斯兰的观点中，天使报喜和基督童贞受孕更像是神对马利亚 的一种强加——神出现并说「这就是将要发生的」——而在基督信仰中（正如我们在 福音书中所见），天使去见马利亚，同时给她一个选择去接受或不接受这使命。 Jacob Imam made the point that their view of the Annunciation and the virgin conception of Christ is much more of God forcing it upon Mary—that God comes and says this is what’s going to happen—versus in Christianity, as we see it in the Gospels, where the angel visits Mary and gives her a choice to accept or not accept it.
我也认为，在伊斯兰里，你会发现他们更注重教法，而不是神学本身。 I also think in Islam, you see this emphasis upon the law rather than upon theology.
无论在犹太教还是在伊斯兰中，都以法律层面的裁决与如何遵行法条为第一要务。 If you look both in Judaism and in Islam, they’re both going to prioritize legal decisions and how you ought to live according to the law.
相比之下，基督信仰中有一套更深的神学传统，并且努力更好地理解道成肉身。 In contrast, in Christianity, we have a much deeper idea of a theological tradition and trying to better understand the Incarnation.
或许正是由于围绕道成肉身的讨论，我们的基督信仰才衍生出如此丰厚的神学传统。 It’s probably a lot out of discussions of the Incarnation that we get such a rich theological tradition in Christianity.
我认为，归根究底就像圣保罗在给加拉太人的书信里说的， 道成肉身使我们能够照着圣灵而行，而不是顺从肉体生活。 I think it’s ultimately because, as St. Paul talks about in his letter to the Galatians, the Incarnation delivers us so we can live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.
所以，最终，伊斯兰的结局就像犹太教一样，依旧是生活在肉身层面之下。 So, ultimately, Islam ends up being about living under the flesh, as you have in Judaism.
但与犹太教不同的是，犹太人并不对外传教，对吧？ But unlike Judaism, where they don't evangelize, right?
他们只针对自己的族群；而在伊斯兰教中，则想让 全世界的人都回到这种肉体层面的生活方式下面。 Just their people—in Islam, it then seeks to bring everyone in the world back under the flesh.
好的，德拉加尼执事，你有什么看法吗？ Yeah, Father Deacon, your thoughts?
嗯，你知道，我觉得伊斯兰很有意思，因为如果你研究伊斯兰本身以及它的历史，会发现 在其中有些与基督信仰相似的回声，而这些不一定与伊斯兰本身的真正规范教义相吻合。 Yeah, you know, Islam is interesting to me because if you look at Islam and the history of Islam, there are some pretty interesting echoes of Christianity in it that don’t necessarily seem to match with what Islam actually teaches.
比如说，你会看到在伊斯兰中对马利亚颇具敬意。 For one thing, you find in Islam a pretty interesting veneration of Mary.
马利亚被视为一个极为重要的人物，古兰经里甚至有整整一章专门讲述她。 Mary is viewed as a significant figure; there’s a whole chapter in the Quran all about Mary.
在某种奇怪的意义上，伊斯兰对马利亚的敬意程度，甚至比大多数新教派还 要高。但当你想到在伊斯兰教里，她并不是神之母，这就显得很奇怪了。 In a weird way, there is more veneration of Mary in Islam than there is in most forms of Protestantism, which is very strange when you consider that in Islam, she is not the Mother of God.
这种敬意确实存在，而且感受得到。 That veneration is there, and it’s pretty palpable.
你在伊斯兰中还能看到一些观念，比如他们相信童贞所生——耶稣没有人类的父亲。 You also find things in Islam, such as the belief in the virgin birth—that Jesus had no human father.
穆斯林相信耶稣升天，并且相信耶稣会在末时再来。 Muslims believe that Jesus ascended into heaven and that he’s going to come again at the end of time.
他们就像我们一样期待耶稣的再来，却不相信他是取了人性的神，并且认 为穆罕默德才是更伟大的先知，尽管穆罕默德有生父，而且他也死了。 They’re also looking for the Second Coming of Jesus like we are, but yet they don’t believe that He is God in the flesh, and they see Muhammad as being the greater prophet, even though Muhammad had a human father and Muhammad died.
所以，有很多历史层面的东西相当有趣，因为它和伊斯兰神学并不完全契合。 So, there’s a lot of historical stuff that’s rather fascinating because a lot of it doesn’t seem to add up with Islamic theology.
我认为如果你深入探究，就会发现伊斯兰是从某 些并不全然正统的基督信仰形态中衍生出来的。 I think if you delve deep enough, you probably see that Islam grew out of various forms of Christianity that were not necessarily orthodox Christianity.
是的，我知道在伊斯兰教中有一个有趣的例子，说耶稣在摇 篮中说话，这个传说其实来自五世纪的一部诺斯低福音。 Yeah, I know one interesting example you find is that in Islam, there is a tradition that Jesus spoke from the cradle, which comes from a 5th-century Gnostic gospel.
当时的阿拉伯地区在宗教上非常多元，而且我们知道穆罕默德并不识字。 Arabia at the time was an incredibly religiously diverse place, and we know Muhammad was not literate.
所以我想，他当时是个商队商人，可能在市场上经常听到各种 人讲不同的故事，最终就形成了一个参杂多种内容的集合。 So, my thought is probably that he was a merchant and he probably hears in the marketplace all the time all these different stories people are telling, and it ends up being a blending of different things.
德拉加尼执事，安东尼提到，伊斯兰教中如果存在对马利亚的尊崇传统，那就很有意思了。 Father Deacon, Anthony was saying it’s quite interesting if there are traditions of Islam that venerate Mary.
我想知道这些传统是否部分源于一些基督徒家族后来加入 伊斯兰，但仍然把尊敬马利亚的传统带进了伊斯兰当中？ I wonder if those came about in part because of Christians whose families became Muslim but continued this tradition of venerating Mary into that?
嗯，在《古兰经》本身就能看到对她的提及。 Well, you find it in the Quran itself.
《古兰经》有整整一章都在讲马利亚，所以对马利亚的崇敬甚至比你提到的时间更早。 There’s a whole chapter about it in the Quran, so it goes back even before that.
不过，是的，基甸，你提到的那些一直让我觉得很有意思。 But yeah, you know what you brought up, Gideon, is always fascinating to me.
他们说耶稣一出生就会说话，他的第一句话是「我是安拉的仆人」。 It has Jesus speaking from the moment he's born, and His first words are, I am a slave of Allah.
所以，这件事又一次显示出这些传说确实很令人好奇。 You know, so that again—it’s fascinating stuff like that.
就像你说的，你会在各种诺斯低文本或其它相关文献中看到记载耶稣在摇篮中说话。 And like you said, you find Jesus speaking from the cradle in various Gnostic texts and whatnot.
我不是研究伊斯兰教历史的专家，但我读过不少相关资料，也有一些自己的想法。 I'm not an expert in the history of Islam, but I've read enough about it that I have some interesting thoughts of my own.
或许你知道，在西方教会中，过去有一个倾向，就是处死 异端——因为他们视异端为会扩散并危害灵魂的毒瘤。 As you’re probably aware, in the Western Church, there was a tendency to execute heretics—put heretics to death—because they saw heresy as a disease that would spread and kill the soul.
而在拜占庭帝国，他们更倾向于放逐异端，而不是处死。 In the Byzantine Empire, the tendency was to exile heretics more than to execute them.
很多异端实际上都被流放到我们如今称为阿拉伯 半岛的地方，这些运动在阿拉伯半岛扎下了根。 A lot of the heretics were actually exiled to the places we now call the Arabian Peninsula, and many of those movements kind of took root in the Arabian Peninsula.
我们也知道穆罕默德在成为伊斯兰先知之前，是一个 商队工人，因此他随着商队在阿拉伯半岛到处奔走。 Now, we know that Muhammad, before he became the prophet of Islam, was a caravan worker, so he traveled all over the Arabian Peninsula with his caravans.
他遇到犹太教群体，也遇到了不同的基督徒群体，其中大多并不属正统范畴。 He encountered Jewish groups and he encountered various Christian communities, most of which were not of the orthodox variety.
所以我认为他从这些人那里听来了许多故事，并将这些内容吸收融合 ，形成了一个多元甚至相互冲突的信仰混合体，这能解释很多现象。 So I think he heard stories from them, and he took things in, creating this mishmash of various potentially conflicting beliefs, which would explain a lot of this.
不过，关于这些到底是怎么形成的，也有不同的理论。 But again, there are different theories as to where this actually came from.
关于伊斯兰教的一个有趣之处在于，它并没有像犹太教和基督信仰那样的圣殿神学。 An interesting thing about Islam is that it does not have a temple theology like Judaism and Christianity do.
你会注意到，《古兰经》中完全没有关于会幕和圣殿建造的讨论，这一点很明显。 You’ll notice one thing that’s significantly absent from the Quran is discussion of the construction of the Tabernacle and the Temple.
而圣经中仅在出埃及记，就有大约二十章专门叙述会幕的 建造，然后整卷利未记都在说明在那会幕里该如何行事。 In contrast, the Bible has about 20 chapters in Exodus just going through the construction of the Tabernacle, then the entire Book of Leviticus instructing you what to do within that Tabernacle.
在列王纪上也再次提到这些讨论，叙述圣殿的建造，以及各处如何对应回会幕的结构。 We get that discussion again in the Book of 1 Kings, where there’s a discussion of the building of the Temple and how all the spots correspond back to the Tabernacle.
而在新约的希伯来书，我们看到大量讨论会幕各部分的应验。 In the New Testament, we have a long discussion in the Book of Hebrews about the fulfillment of the different parts of the Tabernacle.
这很可能部分是因为在穆罕默德的时代，会幕（不，确切说是圣殿）已经不存在了。 This is probably, in part, because the Tabernacle—no, the Temple, rather—no longer existed in the time of Muhammad.
所以，即使在他们的神学框架里有这概念，犹太 人和基督徒在当时大概也很少公开谈论它了。 So it wasn’t something that probably would have been frequently publicly discussed by Jews and Christians, even if it would have been within their theology.
但有趣的是，圣经里最重要的主题之一就是圣殿 的讨论，而在伊斯兰教中却看不到这种内容。 But it is interesting that this is one of the primary themes in Scripture—the discussion of the Temple—and it’s just absent within Islam.
现在我在想，会不会有某种联系把它和道成肉身联结起 来，尤其是我们之前在节目中讨论的基督祭司职层面？ As I’m thinking about it now, I wonder if there is some connection between that and the Incarnation as connected to Christ's priesthood, as we were discussing earlier in the show.
顺着这个话题，基甸提到的也很有意思——伊斯兰教里并没有圣殿神学，也不强调圣殿。 Just to jump on that, what Gideon said is fascinating again—how there is no temple theology in Islam, no emphasis upon the temple.
但与此同时，这一点却总让我觉得很奇怪。 But at the same time, this always struck me as odd.
当穆斯林征服耶路撒冷时，他们的领袖首先要求做的 一件事之一，就是让人带他们去往昔圣殿所在之处。 When the Muslims conquered Jerusalem, one of the first things that their leaders asked to do was to be taken to the place where the temple used to be.
当时他们其实有机会在圣墓教堂里与基督徒一起祈祷 ，但他们不想进去，而是想去圣殿所在的那块地方。 They actually were given the opportunity to pray with Christians in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, but they didn’t want to go in there; they wanted to go to the location of the temple.
他们去了那里，当时那地方全是瓦砾——山顶上遍地都是废墟。 They went there, and at that point in time, it was all rubble—this rubble sitting on top of the mountain.
他们清理了这些瓦砾后，找到了一些石头——那里曾是圣殿的祭坛之处，也 是亚伯拉罕献子时所在的那块石头——那就成了他们在耶路撒冷的圣地。 They cleared away the rubble and found the stones—the stone where the altar used to be in the temple, the stone where Abraham went to sacrifice his son—and that became their holy site in Jerusalem.
因此，虽然没有圣殿神学，也没有对圣殿的完整理 解，但那就是他们在耶路撒冷想要占据的地方。 So again, there’s no theology of the temple there; there’s no understanding of the temple, but yet that was the place they wanted to claim as their own in Jerusalem.
我也不清楚其中的理由或过程，但这点确实让人觉得很意味深长。 Again, I’m not sure why or how that adds up, but it is kind of fascinating.
它与基督信仰和更早的犹太教有某种呼应。 It echoes Christianity and Judaism before it.
真是让人觉得很有意思！ That’s really fascinating!
我从没想过这一点，但没错——这些观点非常精彩。 I never thought about that, but yeah—those are very, very good points.
你们刚才提到（我想是德拉加尼执事或者基甸提到过）伊斯兰 教在早期就明显表现出，它有点像许多基督论异端的混合体。 You all earlier brought up how, I think it was Father Deacon or Gideon, brought up how early on it was very evident within Islam that it was kind of like a mishmash of a lot of Christological heresies.
确实，加上一些不同的宗派，甚至诺斯低教派的一些元素，都混杂在其中。 Indeed, along with different groups, even flavors of Gnosticism really just blended in there.
从这里可以明显看出，我并不是想无礼或贬低，但确 实可以看得出穆罕默德当时并没有受过多少教育。 You can really tell, and I don’t say it to be rude or ugly, but you can really get an idea that Muhammad was not very well educated.
从他采纳的那些在当地司空见惯的传说数量上，就能看得出来。 You can tell by the number of traditions that he just adopted, which are common to his area.
你刚才提到，德拉加尼执事，你说得对；在伊斯兰教里确实有对马利亚的尊崇。 You brought up, Father Deacon, how you’re right; within Islam, there is a veneration of Mary.
我觉得有一点值得关注：我们有不少公教徒，穆 斯林会对他们说：「瞧，我们也爱马利亚啊！ I think that the one thing that is a little bit dangerous is we have a lot of Catholic people who will then get told by Muslims, “Well, look, we love Mary too!
你们看《古兰经》嘛！ You know, read the Quran!
「在我们的圣书里，我们关于马利亚的篇幅远比你们的圣经要多得多。」 We have a way more dedicated chapter in our holy book to Mary than you do in your holy book.”
有些教理基础不够扎实、对信仰了解不深的人，有时会被这类说法所吸引。 People that may not be very well catechized or may not know their faith well are at times really taken in by that.
这确实很有问题，因为古兰经中呈现的那位马利亚，在我 们的公教信仰中，并不被认为是真正的历史性马利亚。 It really is problematic because the Mary that is presented in the Quran, as Catholics, we would not believe to be the historical Mary.
她的家族背景以及对马利亚的描述都有诸多问题。 There are a number of problems there with members of her family and what is said about Mary.
再补充一点，基甸和德拉加尼执事，我注意到，即使他们如此尊崇 马利亚——没错，他们非常尊敬马利亚——但在古兰经里有个明显 的问题：你会看到穆罕默德坚定地认为公教徒是在敬拜马利亚。 To really add to that as well, one thing that I have noticed, Gideon and Father Deacon, is that with all the veneration—yes, they respect Mary greatly—you have a very clear problem in the Quran where you can tell Muhammad believed that Catholics worship Mary.
他们通过强调马利亚也吃普通的食物、马利亚并不是神— —古兰经对此非常明确——在我看来，这就很有问题。 By virtue of saying that Mary ate regular food, that Mary was not God, which is very clearly pointed out in the Quran, that to me is very problematic.
因为如果古兰经的主要作者真的是阿拉，他怎么会犯 下这种错误，不知道我们其实并不敬拜马利亚呢？ Because if the Quran, if its primary author was Allah, how could Allah have created or made such a blunder and not known better—not known that we don’t worship Mary?
我们给马利亚应有的尊崇与敬奉。 We give Mary honor and veneration.
对我来说，这就是一个明显的问题——当你读古兰 经时，你会发现现在有不少学者也对此感到尴尬。 And this, to me, is a glaring problem—a problem that, you know, when you read the Quran, you’ve got today a number of scholars who are embarrassed by it.
因此他们会给出各种不同的解释。 So they’ll give you different answers.
我在跟沙比尔·阿里博士的一场辩论中，他跟我说：「不，不，不…… In a debate I had with Dr. Shabir Ali, he told me, “No, no, no!
穆罕默德在那点上并没有错。 Muhammad was not wrong there.
他不是在说主流基督徒；他指的是科勒律派。」 He was not referring to mainstream Christians; he was talking about the Collyridians.”
我知道你们大概都听过这说法，但我们其实没有 任何证据显示科勒律派在穆罕默德时代还存在。 I know you all have probably heard that before, but very likely, we don’t have any evidence that the Collyridians were even around at the time of Muhammad.
然后你再跟另一位学者穆沙拉夫·侯赛因博士谈，他就会说：「不，不，不…… Then you talk to a different scholar, Dr. Musharraf Hussain, who would then tell me, “No, no, no!
穆罕默德并不是指科勒律派，他说的就是你们这些人！ Muhammad was not referring to the Collyridians; he was referring to you guys!
你们不就是在敬拜马利亚吗！」 You guys do worship Mary!”
在我看来，这就表明了一个严重问题：如果这本所谓的圣书真的有个 主要作者，那么当其中出现明显的神学错误，显示穆罕默德其实并不 知道他所批判和攻击的对象究竟是什么时，就会出现巨大的矛盾。 To me, this really does show a major problem there because if this holy book has primary authors, all of you know, you’ve got a big issue there when there are glaring theological errors that show you that Muhammad didn’t even really know what he was railing against, what he was attacking.
德拉加尼执事，你对此有什么看法？ Perhaps your thoughts on that, Father Deacon?
嗯，实际上，对马利亚给予敬奉的根本原因就在于道成肉身。 Yeah, so really the whole root behind the veneration of Mary is the Incarnation.
一切都是由此而来。 That’s where it all comes from.
如果没有道成肉身，马利亚也并没有如此重要的地位。 Mary, without the Incarnation, is not that significant.
如果没有道成肉身，我们又为何要敬奉马利亚呢？ Why would we even venerate Mary if there was no Incarnation?
我们不会！所以这是一个明显脱节的问题。 We wouldn’t! So it’s kind of, again, one of those disconnects.
我提到他们对马利亚依然十分关注，却不认可道成肉身，这之间并不协调。 I talked about how there’s still this attention paid to Mary, but there’s no Incarnation, which doesn’t really add up.
正如你所说，古兰经对我们对马利亚的看法有很深的误解，这是一个非常重大的误解。 And like you said, the Quran shows a real misunderstanding of what we think about Mary—a very significant misunderstanding.
同样，如果没有道成肉身，我们对马利亚的种种敬奉根本就毫无意义。 Again, without the Incarnation, what we’re doing with Mary makes zero sense.
不过，再次让我感到好奇的是，基督信仰的某些回声依旧保存在那里。 But again, it fascinates me how that echo of Christianity is still in there.
你刚才也提到，若古兰经是阿拉直接启示的——是的，如果神真是古 兰经的作者，他应当知道一般意义上的正统基督徒对马利亚的看法。 What you said, too, about the Quran being offered by Allah—yeah, if God really is the author of the Quran, He knows what Orthodox Christians—with a lowercase o—think about Mary.
他应当清楚我们对马利亚的信念。 He knows what we believe about Mary.
所以，如果一本由神所撰写的经书里出现如此明显的错误，实在太奇怪了。 So it would be very strange to have that big of a glaring error in a book actually written by God.
这也反映出古兰经中一个相当奇怪的面向：他们 对古兰经的态度，类似我们对待基督的态度。 It relates to a very sort of strange aspect of the Quran that they treat the Quran like we treat Christ.
他们认为古兰经是永恒存在的——例如逊尼派穆斯林如此相信（我听说 什叶派并不这么认为）——认定古兰经在神的意念中自永恒就已存在。 They think that it eternally exists—like Sunni Muslims; I’ve heard Shiite Muslims do not believe this—that the Quran eternally existed in the mind of God.
但古兰经却纠缠于许多公元七世纪阿拉伯半岛当下的具体细节，比方说一个 在基督信仰大部分历史中根本不存在的小派别，似乎真的在敬拜马利亚。 But the Quran is awfully caught up in a lot of details that are very contingent on the affairs of 7th-century Arabia, such as apparently some tiny sect that would not exist for most of Christian history that actually did worship Mary.
另外，若把马利亚与道成肉身联系起来，司各脱对此有一个非常有趣的 观点，而且在一份宣示圣母始胎无染原罪教义的教宗通谕《Epheb alisteus》中也采用了相同的说法：司各脱指出，马利亚和基 督是在同一个旨意的预定之下；那份通谕也对此表示相同的看法。 Also, connecting Mary with the Incarnation, Scotus has a very interesting point in this, and it's actually taken up in Ephebalisteus, a papal encyclical dogmatizing the Immaculate Conception, where Scotus says that Mary—and the encyclical says the same thing—was predestined in one and the same decree with Christ.
一旦我们思考道成肉身，道成肉身就意味着要由一个女子所生，所以必须有一位母亲。 As soon as we consider the Incarnation, the Incarnation requires being born of a woman, and so there has to be a mother.
马利亚就因此与基督同时被预定。 Mary is immediately predestined with Christ.
其作用因就在于无染原罪的胎孕；她必须无染地受孕，才能成为神之母。 The efficient cause is the Immaculate Conception; that she has to be immaculately conceived to be the Mother of God.
而在其最终因上，身为圣母，正表明她将成为神之母。 And then also as the final cause of the Theotokos, that she is going to be the Mother of God.
这与最初的旨意紧密相连：在神决定创造其他人的一 切之前，他首先定意创造马利亚，使她成为神之母。 That’s very much within the very first intention: before God wills to create any other people, He first wills to create Mary to be the Mother of God.
好的，宝贝，我在录节目——抱歉啊！ Okay, baby, I'm recording the show—sorry about that!
是的，很好、很好的观点！ Yeah, great, great points there!
我刚才在找我的文档；我已经翻到那部分了。 I was trying to look for my document; I did go ahead.
好的，我现在手上就有它。 Yeah, and I have it here.
我发现你所提到的所有精彩对应之处——正是司各脱的话语所暗示之处。 I have all of the incredible parallels you clearly have, and that’s what you were hearkening to—the language of Scotus.
真的是毫无疑问的。 There really is no doubt there.
德拉加尼执事，你对此有什么想法？ Father Deacon, your thoughts on that?
不幸的是，如今我看到越来越多的基督教派公然否认道成肉身，这让我感到难过。 One thing that kind of saddens me today, unfortunately, is that I see more and more strands of Christianity that are outright denying the Incarnation.
我真的见过这样的情形——确实见过！ I’ve seen this—I’ve seen this!
当我在大学时，我就读于一所世俗大学，选修了基督教神学、基督论、圣 经等相关课程。我们所阅读的一些学者在学术界享有盛誉，而且其中许多 人实际上都是基督教会或团体里的圣职人员，但他们却公然否认道成肉身 ，或试图将其解释成别的，并努力打造一种没有道成肉身的基督信仰。 So, you know, when I was studying in my undergraduate, I went to a secular university and took all these courses on things related to Christian theology—Christology, Scripture—and we’re reading these scholars, many of whom are very well-respected in academic circles, many of whom are actually clergy in various Christian churches or communities, who were outright denying the Incarnation or explaining it away and trying to have a Christianity without the Incarnation.
我越来越看到，基督信仰逐渐出现分裂，特别是在新教当中，一方面…… More and more, I see Christianity kind of dividing, especially in the Protestant world, between...
……有些人干脆否认或忽视道成肉身，而另一些人则走向越来越基要主义的方向。 ...those who deny or ignore the Incarnation altogether, and then on the other hand, there are those who are becoming more and more fundamentalist.
这让我感到担忧。 That worries me.
我担忧的原因在于，没有道成肉身的基督信仰就不再是基督信仰。 It worries me because Christianity without the Incarnation is not Christianity.
看到这种观念正逐渐成为主流——如果你去看当今新教界的 一些著名圣经学者，会发现这种情况不少——这让我忧心。 Seeing this becoming increasingly mainstream—if you look at some of the big biblical scholars today in the Protestant world, you see this a lot—that has me worried.
或许这也部分解释了为什么我们的国家正渐渐偏离其原本的犹太-基督教传统。 And that perhaps is why, to a certain degree, our country is becoming further and further separated from its Judeo-Christian roots.
美国的根基里多少带有自然神论的色彩，后来又由某种新教形式的基督信仰占主导地位。 America was kind of founded on Deism, and then a kind of Protestant Christianity dominated.
然而，随着时间推移，新教中的许多派别越来越缺乏基督信仰的实质。 But that Protestant Christianity, a lot of it, has become less and less Christian as time went on.
我认为，没有基督、没有道成肉身的基督信仰，最 终会导致某种令人畏惧的世俗主义和虚无主义。 I think Christless Christianity, or Christianity with no Incarnation, ultimately leads to a kind of frightening secularism and nihilism.
即便在现今新教中那些承认道成肉身的群体里，我也发现他 们在有意或无意地淡化道成肉身的重要性，这让我担忧。 I also think there’s a concern even in places where they are affirming the Incarnation within contemporary Protestantism—that they’re trying to downplay it quite a bit.
举个例子，圣经神学家N.T.赖特——我认为赖特对在 福音书和其中神学里体现的道成肉身做出了很好的辩护。 To give an example, the biblical theologian N.T. Wright—I think Wright has done an excellent job defending the Incarnation as actually being present in the Gospels and its theology there.
但是我觉得他对道成肉身的理解有时存在一些问题。 But I think his understanding of the Incarnation at times is a bit problematic.
比如，在他那本《纯粹的基督徒》里（他对《返璞归真》的 一种诠释），他提到基督在复活之前并不知道自己是神。 So, in his book— I think it’s in his book Simply Christian, which is his version of Mere Christianity—he says that Christ did not know He was God until after the Resurrection.
也就是说从圣诞起直到复活，基督的人性思维占据主导地位。 That sort of the human mind of Christ entirely dominated from the time of Christmas until his Resurrection.
可是假如你看教父们的论述，他们会说基督自始至终都知道自己是神。 But if you look in the Fathers, they’ll talk about how Christ knew He was God the whole time.
即使在他们讨论《路加福音》中提到的「耶稣渐长智慧」那节经文时，他们 也会说这是就他的人性而言，或者说这是他随着成长不断彰显智慧的过程。 Even when they take that phrase in the Gospel of Luke that Christ grew in wisdom, they’ll say it’s either according to His human mind or they’ll say that He is continuing to more greatly manifest His wisdom as He grows up.
他以人的方式生活，经历人类生命的各种层面。 He lives as a human and takes on all these different aspects of human life.
许多人把它理解为他是真的不知道，然后后来才学到新 东西，这实际上弱化了道成肉身在历史中的真实性。 People often take it like He was actually ignorant and then learned new things, essentially downplaying the reality of the Incarnation within human history.
在我看来，这是一个非常值得担忧的趋势，甚至已经渗透到很多公教的圣经神学里了。 That, to me, is a very concerning trend that’s even crept into a lot of Catholic biblical theology.
举个例子吧，以前我有个朋友在一个相当有名望的公教学术机构攻读神学硕士。 So to give an example of this, I had a friend who was a master’s student at a Catholic theology program—a very, very well-respected one.
我就不说具体名字了，但他说他在上基督论的课程，我对这点很好奇。 I won’t name names, but he said that he was taking a Christology course, and I was fascinated by this.
那时我还刚开始大学，正对神学特别感兴趣，才刚刚入门。 You know, I had just started my undergraduate at the time, and I was really interested in theology, just starting to get into it.
我就问他：「唔，你们在读些什么材料？」 I asked him, Well, what are you guys reading?
「你们有没有看亚历山大的圣区利罗、教宗圣良、圣玛克西姆他们的作品？」 Are you reading like St. Cyril, Pope Leo, St. Maximus?
「你们所使用的基督论文献有哪些？」 What are these sources on Christology?
结果他说：「不是啊，我们读的是某些对基督论的探讨，比如可认为马可福 音是某种收养说基督论的来源，而在约翰福音就出现更偏向道的基督论。」 And he says, No, we’re reading about Christology, as if maybe the Gospel of Mark had an adoptionist Christology, then the Gospel of John, you get more of a Logos Christology.
他们好像还没真正打算把这个问题展开…… If they haven't really gotten all the way...
我在想，这些说法跟公教会所教导的基督论有什么关系呢？ I’m thinking, how does any of this have to do with the Christology taught by the Catholic Church?
令人担忧的是，这一学期看起来他们似乎根本没有探讨过传统对道成肉身的教导。 It’s very concerning that apparently, it seems like in this entire semester, they never actually dealt with what any of the tradition says on the Incarnation.
这真是个相当严重的问题。 That’s massively problematic.
说得好，基甸，真是个绝佳观点！ There, Gideon, what a great point!
我非常欣赏你如此强调那些在基督论上堪称大师的人物。 I greatly appreciate how you really focus on the masters of Christology.
你提到了伟大的亚历山大的圣区利罗，也提到了伟大的教宗圣良。 You talked about the great St. Cyril of Alexandria, you talked about the great Pope St. Leo the Great.
我们知道在以弗所大公会议和迦克墩会议上，关 于基督论有美妙的阐述，也有教宗圣良的书简。 We know the Christology ensconced beautifully at Ephesus and beautifully in the tomb of Leo at Chalcedon.
你所提到的这些见解都非常棒，观众们确实应该了解这些要点。 What incredible points you really bring up there, points that the audience really should know.
换句话说，如果你想真正了解基督论，想认识早期教父的教导，也想知道圣经所教导 的内容，你就该读这些作品，因为这些教父正是根据圣经并传承自先辈所教的真理。 I mean, this is what you need to be reading—really delving into—if you want to learn what Christology is, if you want to learn what the early Fathers taught, if you want to know what Scripture taught, because they relied upon what was taught in Scripture and what was handed down to the early Fathers.
的确，在使徒时代的教父著作中都能找到我们所谈论内容的回声，比如安提阿的圣依纳爵。 Indeed, the echoes of everything we’ve been talking about, you can find in the Apostolic Fathers, like the great St. Ignatius of Antioch.
所以这确实很遗憾，而且我也时常注意到类似的情形。 So really, this is unfortunate, and I have noticed it often as well.
我认为，自由派的学术研究给我们造成了相当大的损害，因为我和一些人谈 过——他们中也有我的好朋友——他们会推荐一些实际上充满问题的书籍。 I think that liberal scholarship has done a great disservice because I’ve talked to people, even good friends of mine, who will recommend books that are just really filled with problems.
我觉得我们要意识到的一点是：我们并不需要向学术界俯首称臣。 I think the one thing we need to realize is that we don’t bow down to academia.
学术圈里存在许多并不正确的观点。 There are a lot of people who are wrong within the walls of academia.
你需要真正地去阅读。 You need to really read.
在我看来，我一直强调的一个重点就是要直接去阅读第一手的原始材料。 In my opinion, the one thing I’ve always pointed out is to go to the first-hand source material.
我并不是说，哎，你一定得去学希腊文、学拉丁文。 I don’t mean, Okay, no, you’ve got to learn Greek; you’ve got to learn Latin.
你知道，你可以找到英文版，那就用英文来阅读吧。 You know, you can find it in English; go ahead and read it in English.
而不要只是依赖别人对你说教父们教导了什么，自己先去读他们的原文。 But rather than relying upon what other people tell you the Fathers taught, go read it firsthand.
在 New Advent 网站上，你可以免 费找到很多很好的资料，还有许多很棒的资源。 You get a lot of great stuff for free on New Advent, and then you’ve got a lot of great resources.
你也可以攒点钱，去买美国公教大学出版的书；他们有很多非常不错的丛书。 You know, save up your pennies and get books from Catholic University of America; they’ve got a lot of really good volumes there.
德拉加尼执事，你怎么看？ Your thoughts, Father Deacon?
是的，你知道，基甸所说的关于学术研究及其对人的影响确实是事实。 Yeah, you know, what Gideon said is so true about the scholarship and the way it’s impacting people.
可悲的是，这些东西在公教的硕士班里被教授， 不过据我的经历，许多神学院里也在教这些。 It’s tragic that it’s being taught in Catholic master’s programs, but you know, in my experience, it’s being taught in a lot of seminaries as well.
我认为，在某种程度上，这正是我们当今在教会里看到诸多问题的根源之一。 I think, to a certain level, this is one of the root causes of the problems we see in the Church today.
有整整一代年轻人想要成为祭司，想要侍奉神，他们进 了神学院，而他们所接触的圣经学术正是这些内容。 We had a whole generation of young men who wanted to be priests, who wanted to serve God, and they went to seminaries where that was the biblical scholarship they were weaned on.
那种圣经学术很可能扼杀人的信仰，我认为它培养出了一代公教神职 人员，他们的信仰在神学院期间就已大为削弱，甚至可能被摧毁。 That kind of biblical scholarship has the power to kill your faith, and I think it produced a generation of clergy in the Catholic Church where many had faith that was very, very weakened from their seminary experience, if not destroyed by it.
这或许导致了我们当下所面临的许多问题——各种丑闻，以及教会在这个国 家整体上的脆弱性——我认为其中很大程度都要追溯到那样的神学院经历， 以及他们所受的是完全没有信仰、没有道成肉身概念的圣经学术熏陶。 That could have led to a lot of the problems we’re dealing with today—scandals, the general fragility of the Church in this nation—I think largely goes back to that seminary experience and then being weaned on a biblical scholarship that is completely devoid of faith, completely devoid of the Incarnation.
再强调一次，道成肉身确实是我们信仰的核心。 Again, the Incarnation is really at the very center of our faith.
如果你试图教授基督信仰，却弱化或去除了道成肉身 ，你就不是真的在教基督信仰；你在教别的东西。 If you’re trying to instill Christianity but you downplay or remove the Incarnation, you’re not really teaching Christianity; you’re teaching something else.
关于这些课程和神学院里出现的问题，我最近提到 过有一位与我共事的人，他曾和一些祭司聊过天。 And on that point about the issues in a lot of these programs and seminaries, I just mentioned an anecdote recently of someone I work with who was speaking with some priests.
我主要研究创造论，他也想看看神学院里都在教些什么。 I do a lot of work in the area of theology of creation, and so he wanted to see what’s being taught.
他和一些来自一个规模很大的修会的祭司谈话，问他们： 「你们在神学院里学到了哪些关于创造论的内容呢？」 He talked to some priests who are part of a very large order, and he asked, “What were you guys taught about the theology of creation in seminaries?”
他们说：「噢，我们从来没上过这门课啊。」 They said, “Oh, we never had a class on that.”
你们从没上过有关创造的课吗？ You never had a class on creation?
在神学院里四年的学习时间里也没有？ In like four years of seminary education?
这是一个非常严肃的问题！ This is a very significant issue!
若干非常关键的神学议题要么在神学院里根本没有讨论，要么讨论时又充斥着自由派学术。 Very important points of theology are either not being discussed in seminaries, or when they are, they're filled with liberal scholarship.
这确实非常令人遗憾。 It’s very unfortunate.
这些神学院里常常也有一些非常优秀的教授，他们 不得不对自己的言论谨小慎微，生怕惹上麻烦。 Often at these seminaries, there are some very good professors, so they have to be very careful about what they say and how they say it so they don’t get in trouble.
是啊，这确实是事实，而且确实让人感到遗憾。 Yeah, that really is true and really is unfortunate as well.
我觉得，我们最需要做的一件事是为许多神学院学生祈祷。 I think one thing more than anything we need to pray for are a lot of these seminarians.
我们要为他们热切祈祷——真的要热心祈祷！ We need to pray for them fervently—fervent prayer!
我们也要意识到，其中很多人真的非常渴望学习 ，也确实想要学习，但却没有得到良好的教导。 We need to also realize that we have a lot of them that are really hungry to learn and really do want to learn, but they are not getting taught well.
他们没有得到合宜的教育。 They’re not getting properly educated.
我认为，人们与其嘲笑祈祷，不如认识到这些神学院生之后很多都会在堂区服事，其中有 些甚至会成为堂区的副本堂，而他们在讲道台上传讲的东西会进入到堂区信众的心里。 I think people, rather than scoffing at the idea of prayer, need to realize that a lot of these people end up in parishes, some of them vicars of a parish, and what they’re going to be preaching in the pulpit is going to be going into the minds of everybody there at the parish.
这确实非常不幸，也很令人难过，我们需要在这方面加倍努力。 It really is very unfortunate, very sad, and it is something that we need to do a lot better about.
我们确实需要……基甸，你怎么看呢？ We need to really—Gideon, what are your thoughts?
我们能做些什么来改善他们所接受到的教育呢？ What can we do to better the kind of education that they’re receiving?
我认为，主要部分就是要提供更多更优质的资源。 I think a big part of it is just putting out better resources out there.
举例而言，威廉，你的 YouTube 频道，还有你 所写的书籍——很多神学院学生其实会想去读这些东西。 So, like your YouTube channel, for example, William, and the books you’ve done—many seminarians will actually read that stuff.
他们很多人现在明白，当他们进入神学院时，需要在理解信仰方面与不少主教和教授的观 点相左，因此他们会利用空闲时间阅读一些往往比神学院里提供的课程更优质的资料。 A lot of them now know that when they’re going into seminaries, they’re going up against a lot of their bishops and their own professors in trying to understand the faith, and they’re going in their free time and reading often much better material than they are getting from their seminary education.
是的，所以我觉得我们也需要制作更好的资料， 并与那些情况较好的神学院和主教进行交流。 Yeah, and so I think we also need to produce better resources and also talk to seminaries and bishops where things are better.
也许我们能把更优质的资源带进去。 Perhaps we can get better resources in there.
我在创造神学领域最终希望做的部分工作，是提供更好 的教理资源，盼望有一天能进入一些更好的神学院。 Part of what I'm hoping to do eventually in the area of the theology of creation is provide better catechetical resources that hopefully one day can get into some of the better seminaries.
你也可以在平信徒层面进行教理讲授。 You can also just do catechesis on a lay level.
很多人都渴望了解扎实的教导，如果我们能把这些 内容带给他们，我想会有不少人非常乐于接受。 There are a lot of people who are hungry for good, solid teaching, and if we can get that content out there to them, I think a lot of people are going to be very receptive to that.
我想这或许就是为什么我们在像 YouTube 这样的 平台上看到那么多公教教育内容日益增多的原因，不是吗？ I think this is why we’ve seen the ballooning of Catholic educational content on places like YouTube, right?
曾经有人跟我说，很多年前，如果你没有各种学位等证书 ，你是不会被允许在 YouTube 上开设频道的。 I had someone point out to me once that years ago, you would not have been allowed to have a YouTube channel if you didn't have all the degrees and so on.
那时你也就没有资格去讲授公教信仰了。 You would not have been able to teach on the Catholic faith.
我就回答说，对啊，你说得很对，但我之所以要做这一切， 是因为我希望这些有学位和资历的人能够出来做正确的事。 And I said, you know, you're very right, and I wish I didn't have to do this because I wish the people who had those degrees and credentials were out there doing the right work.
我也认为，其中一个原因是我私下跟很多学者交流过，他们在私下里 会更愿意谈及某些观点，但却不愿意把这些观点写出来公开发表。 I also think part of it is that I have talked to quite a lot of academics in private, and they will be willing to be much more public about certain views in private that they are not willing to put into writing.
他们明白，一旦把这些看法写出来，他们就不可能再 在大学里找到工作，或者会被所在机构清除出去。 They know that if they have that put into writing, they will never get a job at a university; they’ll be ousted from wherever they are.
也不会再有人严肃对待他们。 No one will ever take them seriously.
因此，他们对公开场合所说的话就显得格外谨慎。 And so as a result, they’re very, very cautious about what they say publicly.
我今年夏天参加了一个关于创造神学的研讨会，会上有一位来自罗马某顶尖大学的教授。 You know, I was at a conference this summer on the theology of creation, and we had a professor there from one of the top universities in Rome.
如果你听过他在我们会议上的发言，他现在很可能已经被那所大学开除了。 If you heard his talk at our conference, he’d probably be fired from that university right now.
因此，他们在公开谈论这类问题时必须非常谨慎。 So they have to be very careful of what they say publicly on these matters because of that.
通常就变成我们这些并没有那些学位的人，反而要站出来谈这些话题。 Oftentimes, it ends up being those of us who don’t have the degrees who have to be the ones talking about it.
德拉加尼执事，你怎么看？ Your thoughts, Father Deacon?
基甸刚才说的确实很切中要害。 What Gideon just said is so true.
我在学术界工作；我是教授，必须非常谨慎。 I work in academia; I'm a professor, and you have to be careful.
有些话只要你说出来，你很可能就会断送自己的学术生涯——即便是在公教大学里也一样。 There are certain things that if you say them, you could pretty easily destroy your career—even at Catholic universities.
这确实是个值得担忧的问题。 That’s a real concern.
即使在一些很不错的公教大学里，如果你说错了话， 也可能被贴上散布仇恨、狭隘或基要主义的标签。 Even at some very good Catholic universities, if you say the wrong thing, you can be labeled as a hate monger or somebody who’s small-minded or fundamentalist.
所以你要非常谨慎。 So you’ve got to be really careful.
这就是高等教育的现实。 That’s just the reality of higher education.
这很令人遗憾，因为学术界原本应该是言论自由、表达自由、思想自由的地方。 It’s sad because academia is supposed to be a place where there’s freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of thought.
我的经验是，大多数学院和大学并不真正容忍思想自由。 In my experience, most colleges and universities do not tolerate actual freedom of thought.
如果你的想法超出了他们所认定的正统范畴，无论是什么— —他们都不会容忍你、不欢迎你，你的事业也就被毁掉了。 If you think outside the orthodoxy of their belief system—whatever it may be—you’re not tolerated, you’re not welcome there, and your career is destroyed.
太令人难过了。 That is sad.
我也想到我有个朋友是祭司，他跟我讲过这样一件事。 I was also thinking about a friend of mine who’s a priest, and he told me this story.
他在加拿大的一所知名公教神学院里就读，当他还在研习祭司职时 ，他们要求他在课堂上阅读的那些资料真的很糟糕——糟到不行。 He attended a really well-known Catholic seminary in Canada, and while he was a student there, while he was a seminarian studying for the priesthood, the stuff they had him reading for the classes was just awful—it was absolutely awful.
他想读真正的公教神学，但必须很小心，因为如果被 发现他在看那些书，就会在神学院里惹上大麻烦。 He wanted to read authentically Catholic theology, but he had to be careful because if he was caught with those books, he would have been in big trouble at the seminary.
所以，他实际上像是偷偷带进了关于教父的书，或是若瑟·拉辛格（本笃 十六世）的著作，乃至托马斯·阿奎那的书，他不得不偷偷地带这些书进 来，还特地换上假书皮，当别人看到时就不会发现他在读这类内容。 So he actually, like, smuggled in books about the Church Fathers or books by Joseph Ratzinger, you know, and he had to smuggle these books in—Thomas Aquinas—and he actually put fake covers on them so if anyone saw them, they wouldn’t realize he was reading this stuff.
听起来有点荒谬，但他就是在公教神学院里想要阅读真正的公教神学，却要如此大费周章。 You know, it’s kind of ridiculous, but that’s the lengths he had to go to read actual Catholic theology in a Catholic seminary.
有点悲哀——确实让人难过！ It’s kind of sad—kind of sad!
而且，这些东西不仅仅只教给神学院学生，是吧？ And this stuff is not even just being taught to seminarians, either, right?
或许神学院学生会去读其他资料；他们可能更坚固一些，希望 如果他们的教理根基扎实，就能抵抗那些问题重重的神学。 Maybe seminarians are going to be reading other stuff; they’re going to be a bit stronger and hopefully, if they’re really catechized, will be able to go up against very problematic theology.
但实际上，这些东西也常常在更初阶的层面被教导出来。 But it’s also often taught at much lower levels.
举个例子来说，我大学时是古典学专业，但我选修了相当多的神学课程。 So to give one example, in my undergraduate degree, I was a classics major, but I took quite a number of classes in theology.
我上过一门有关马利亚学的课程，教授在开学没几天就 告诉我们，马利亚的永远童贞是三世纪编造出来的。 I took a course on Mariology, and our professor told us on one of the first days that the perpetual virginity of Mary was made up in the third century.
于是我向她解释说，在《路加福音》中——特别是天使对马利亚说「你未曾与人同房」， 或马利亚对天使说「我不识男人」——若非马利亚发愿保持终身童贞，这些话并不通顺。 So I explained to her how the Gospel of Luke—specifically the angel’s statement to Mary that I know not man, or Mary’s statement to the angel that I know not man—would not make sense unless Mary was vowed as a perpetual virgin.
她说：「噢，那是后世对经文的诠释。」 She said, “Oh, that’s a later interpretation of the verse.”
当时我在这方面幸运地有比较扎实的教理基础，并且也花了很多业余时间研究马利亚学。 Well, now we have— I was well catechized, luckily, in the background, but I had spent a lot of my free time studying Mariology.
我当时的课堂大概有三十来个人，而且这是针对非专业学生的课程，我敢说其中至少有二 十到二十五人，除了当年在坚振班里听过之外，可能从未读过任何关于马利亚学的著作。 I was in a class of about 30 people, and this was a non-majors course, so I bet you at least 20 to 25 people in that class had probably never read anything on Mariology before in their life besides what they heard in their confirmation classes back then, you know?
然后他们可能就会离开课堂时想：「噢，好吧，看起来这和我们所知道的相互矛盾啊。」 And they’re going to walk away with, “Oh, well, I guess that contradicts it.”
我有个朋友曾进入一个神学硕士项目。 I had a friend who came into a master’s in theology program.
他大学和硕士都在学神学，起初他非常虔诚，完全相信教会所教导的一切。 He started out as an undergrad in both undergrad and his master’s in theology, and he started out very devout, believing everything the Church teaches.
可是等他修完课程后，他开始对我说，我们只要信马利亚永远 童贞的神学意义就好，而不必相信那在历史上真实发生过。 By the time he was done with this program, he was arguing to me that we only have to believe in the theological meaning of the perpetual virginity of Mary, not that it historically happened.
也就是说，即便一些教理扎实、知道何为正确信仰的人， 若每天听着这些异端论调持续数年，也会被慢慢影响。 This is a sort of—so even people who are very well-catechized and know what’s right, when they hear day in and day out for years these heresies, it slowly influences them.
击垮他的是在旧约课上，老师告诉他旧约的大部分是由异教徒写的。 What broke him is he was in a class on the Old Testament, and they were telling him that most of the Old Testament was written by pagans.
他从没研究过公教对旧约的真正教导，所以在他 无法反驳的领域受到冲击，整个人就崩溃了。 He had never researched the true Catholic teachings on the Old Testament, so he was hit in an area where he didn’t have any response, and that broke him.
随后他对其他东西也一并失去了把握。 Then everything else tumbled apart.
我认为，即使对那些明白正确信仰并且非常坚定的人来 说，当他们遇到前所未闻的观点时，也可能被动摇。 I think that’s something even for those who know the right thing and are very strong in it—when they encounter something they’ve never heard of before, it can shake them.
所以我会给大家的建议是：当你听到某些言论与自 己对公教信仰的理解相抵触时，不要立刻就轻信。 So I would give advice to everyone out there: when you hear something that seems to contradict what you think is correct about the Catholic faith, don’t simply believe it right away.
要先去考察、研究，然后再决定是否接受，因为很多时候，这些说法并不正确。 Make sure to investigate it and research it before accepting it, because very often, it’s not correct.
是的，非常非常好的观点。 Yeah, very, very good point.
的确，经常如你所说，这些说法很多时候并不正确。 Very often, you’re right; very often, it’s not correct.
如今，随着我们节目接近尾声，我想让大家看最后一处经文，那就是《约翰福音 》第1章。我认为在我们结束节目时，这是一段非常合宜、也很重要的经文。 Now, as we come toward the end of our program, I do want to look at one final passage, and that would be in the Gospel of St. John, chapter 1. I think it’s very fitting that, as we’re closing out the show, we look at one of the most important passages.
我们读到：「太初有道，道与神同在，道就是神 。约1:1。」 We read, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
「这道太初与神同在。约1:2。」 The same was in the beginning with God.
「万物是借着他造的；凡被造的，没有一样不是借着 他造的。约1:3。」 All things were made by Him, and without Him was made nothing that was made.”
如今，我们可以讨论许多其他经文；还有更多的例子。 Now, we can talk about many other passages; there are others.
的确，我相信即使在《马可福音》里也能找到相关经文。 Indeed, I believe there are passages even in the Gospel of Mark.
我也认为，在《马可福音》中可以证明基督就是永恒的神 ——赎名雅威——从他自称人子时的背景就能看出来。 Or I believe in the Gospel of Mark, you can show that Christ is clearly Yahweh, the eternal God, there by His hearkening to His identity as the Son of Man.
不过眼下我们主要谈《约翰福音》第1章——这段经文 十分美妙，也非常合适在我们现如今的将临期里阅读。 But we’re talking right now, particularly about John 1—it’s a really incredibly beautiful passage and quite fitting to read that during the time of Advent that we’re going through right now.
在节目结束之前，我很想听听你们两位对这段美丽经文的看法。 I’d love to get both of your thoughts on those beautiful Scriptures before we round out the show.
德拉加尼执事，也许你先来谈谈？ Father Deacon, perhaps your thoughts first?
好的，这里提到万物是借着道造的，对吗？ Yeah, so it talks about how everything was created through the Word, right?
我一直在强调这一点：叙利亚的圣以撒曾提到，道成肉身最终是一个出于爱的行动。 And I keep coming back to this point: St. Isaac the Syrian talks about how the Incarnation was ultimately an act of love.
我们现在思考的就是这位创造万物的神——道创造了所有事物。 What we’re thinking about here is this God—the Word created all things.
他带着极深的爱来创造一切，尤其是对我们的爱。 He created all things with so much love, so much love for us.
然而，他却选择与我们合而为一。 But He chose to unite Himself with us.
因此，他不单单创造了这个世界，而且决定加入其中；他选 择进入受造界，与我们人类结合，成为受造物的一部分。 So not only did He create the world, but He chose to join it; He chose to join creation and become a part of creation by uniting Himself with us human beings.
藉此，他使我们有机会能够变得与他相似。 In doing so, He makes it possible for us to become like Him.
我们今天还没深入谈这点，但由道成肉身而来的， 就是如此被称为theosis（神化）的奥秘。 We didn’t get to it today, but from the Incarnation comes theosis, deification.
我们每个人都被召叫去分沾神的本性，而这都是通过道成肉身实现的。 We’re each called to become partakers of the divine nature, and that comes through the Incarnation.
再一次强调，正是因为神创造了世界，并极爱他所造 的一切，所以他成为了这世界的一部分，与之合一。 Again, it’s because God created the world and He loved what He created so much that He became a part of it; He united Himself with it.
他所取的，他也就拯救了。 And that which He assumed, He saved.
基甸，你的看法呢？ Your thoughts, perhaps, Gideon?
好的，我也想在此做一点省思。 Yeah, I want to give a reflection.
我最近在读布林迪西的圣劳伦斯对《创世记》的注 释，他提到在1章1节里，「起初神创造天地」。 I was reading in St. Lawrence of Brindisi's commentary on Genesis, because on verse 1:1, there he says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”
我们通常会认为「起初」只是指时间的开端，而这也确实不错…… Now, we often think in the beginning here simply means the beginning of time, and that’s true...
可是，圣约翰告诉我们什么？ But what does St. John tell us?
他说：「太初有道。」约1:1。 He says, In the beginning was the Word.
由此可见，那希伯来词bereshit（意为「 起初」）在约翰的理解里，其实指向圣子本身。 So that phrase, that Hebrew word there Bereshit, St. John tells us that this is referring to the person of the Son.
布林迪西的圣劳伦斯也引用了大量教父的见证，他们认为这个含义 为「起初」的希伯来词指的是圣子，即神借着圣子创造了天地。 St. Lawrence actually gives a whole bunch of patristic testimony of Church Fathers who say that by this Hebrew word that means in the beginning, it refers to the person of the Son: in the Son, God created the heavens and the earth.
再者，你提到基督论和《马可福音》，我想简单地说一下：我突然 想到一个非常有力的关于道成肉身的论证，我想把它告诉大家。 And through Him, I also want to mention very briefly, since you mentioned Christology and the Gospel of Mark, a very, very powerful proof of the Incarnation just came to me, and I wanted to mention this to viewers.
人们常常听到有人说，《马可福音》里并没有教导耶稣是神。 You’ll often hear it said that the Gospel of Mark does not teach that Jesus was God.
看看第一节：「神的儿子，耶稣基督福音的起头 。可1:1。」 You do read the first verse: The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
人们会觉得，「神的儿子」这个称呼，大卫王在旧约里也被这 样称呼，然后就说这只不过是指某个人在神面前蒙恩宠罢了。 And they’ll say, Oh, well, this title ‘Son of God’—King David is also called the Son of God in the Old Testament; it could just mean simply someone highly favored by God.
没错，可是往下看接下来的两节，你如果不承认耶稣就是神，就没法解释得通。 And that’s true, but in the next two verses, it’s actually impossible to square unless Jesus is God.
经文是这样说的，然后我们见到施洗约翰到来。 He says, and then we see St. John the Baptist coming.
显而易见，施洗约翰就是在旷野呼喊的人：「预备主 的道。」可1:3。 Well, St. John the Baptist is obviously the one who cries in the wilderness, Prepare the way of the Lord.
那这里「主」这个词指的究竟是谁呢？ But what is the word Lord there?
若我们回到《以赛亚书》第40章，就会发现那里的「主」指的正是雅威。 If we go back to Isaiah chapter 40, that word Lord refers to Yahweh.
在基督时代的犹太人并不直呼神名字的读音，也就 是雅威（Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh）。 So the Hebrews, in the time of Christ, would not speak the name of God in the Old Testament—Yahweh, Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh.
他们会说Adonai（意即「主」）。 They would instead say Adonai, which means Lord.
所以在新约里，在基督那个时代的用法中，也都直接用「主」来替代「雅威」。 And so in the New Testament, as Christ was within this practice in His time, it always says Lord rather than Yahweh.
不过如果我们查看这节经文在希伯来文里的原文，就会发现这句话是：「在旷 野预备雅威的路，修直他的道。」赛40:3。 But if we look at the original Hebrew of this verse, it is Prepare the way of Yahweh; make His paths straight.
因此，《马可福音》是引用《以赛亚书》中谈到雅威的那句，并将它应用到基督身上。 So the Gospel of Mark is quoting Isaiah, talking about Yahweh, and applies this to Christ.
因此，从《马可福音》的开篇三节经文（也被认为 是最早的福音书）开始，已经宣告耶稣就是雅威。 So from the very beginning, in the first three verses of the Gospel of Mark—supposedly the earliest of the Gospels—it says Yahweh is Jesus.
哇，我之前并不知道这一点！ Wow, I was not aware of that!
那真是一个绝妙的观点。 That’s a really awesome point.
谢谢你分享，基甸，你的观点非常精彩！ Thanks for sharing that—great, great point there, Gideon!
我非常欣赏你提到的第一点，尤其是在谈到《马太福音》时，我同意你的看法。 I greatly appreciated how, number one, I agree with you when it comes to the Gospel of St. Matthew.
但你提到一个很好的观点，就是说，好吧，如果 要让他们坚持那个论点，我们也可以先让步。 But you make a great point that, you know what, okay, we’ll give them that.
如果他们想要坚持《马可福音》是最早的，那没关系，就算只 用《马可福音》，我们也能证明主耶稣就是神——永恒的神。 If they want to begin with the argument that Mark has to be the first, well, we can prove that he’s God—eternal God—even from the Gospel of St. Mark.
这样一点问题也没有。 There’s no problem with that.
所以，这既是很好的护教论证，也是非常棒的神学要点！ So, a great apologetic point and great theological points!
你们两位今晚的分享都十分出色。 You both have been incredible this evening.
你们能在百忙之中抽空来讨论这样一个至关重要的话题，让我受益匪浅。 I have been beyond edified by your presence—by both of you taking your busy time out of your schedules to talk about a vitally important topic.
我知道观众们也一定会从中得到极大的启发。 I know the audience will be incredibly edified as well.
在结束之前，我想给你们每个人一个机会，可以介绍一下你们 正在做的任何事——网站、YouTube、书籍等等都行。 Before we wrap up, I'd like to give each one of you the chance to put in a plug for anything you might be working on—webpage, YouTube, books—anything.
舞台交给你们！ The floor is yours!
我想最后先请德拉加尼执事发言，不过基甸，你是否愿意先分享一下？ Now, I would like to give you the floor last, but Father Deacon, perhaps Gideon, you can go first if you don’t mind.
好的，当然可以！ All right, sure!
如果有人想更多了解道成肉身，我想推荐一些重要资 料，尤其是和司各脱对道成肉身的看法相关的资源。 So, if people want to know more about the Incarnation, I want to recommend a few important resources, especially on the Scotus view of the Incarnation.
若有人想深入探讨圣经中基督绝对元首地位的问题 ，我推荐让-弗朗索瓦·博纳福瓦的相关著作。 If people want an in-depth study of the Absolute Primacy of Christ within the Scriptures, I recommend Jean-François Bonafoy’s book on it.
我很可能把他的法语名字念得不太对，不过他有一本名为《 基督与宇宙》的书，原本是法文，现在已经被译成英文了。 I’ve probably butchered the French pronunciation for his name horribly, but he has a book called Christ and the Cosmos, which was in French but has been translated into English.
实际上，你可以在 archive.org 上找到这本书的免费版本， You can actually find a free version of it on archive.org,
他在书中进行了深入的研究，大约三百页，探讨了基督在旧约与新约中的首要地位。 and he goes into an in-depth, like 300-page study of the primacy of Christ in both the Old and New Testaments.
还有，正如我先前提过的，Dominic Unger 神父有关基督绝对元首地 位及教父们的文章。我尤其推荐他写的两篇关于圣爱任纽的文章，因为你会发现，二 世纪时圣爱任纽已经清楚阐明了这些神学——他当时就已经肯定基督是绝对元首。 There’s also, as I mentioned earlier, Father Dominic Unger's articles on the Absolute Primacy of Christ and the Church Fathers, and I actually highly recommend his two articles on Saint Irenaeus because you’ll see that Saint Irenaeus in the second century already figured out all this theology; he already has Christ as the Absolute Primacy of Christ.
德拉加尼执事，接下来就请你吧！ Father Deacon, your turn!
他在神学中也已经将马利亚视为协同救赎者。 He already has Mary as Co-Redeptix in his theology.
他并没有使用我们后世所用的这些术语，但是在二世纪时，他 就已经弄明白了我们用两千年神学反省才重新理清的内容。 He doesn’t use the later language that we use, but already in the second century, he figured out what it’s taken us like 2000 years of theological reflection to reverse engineer.
我也推荐一本很好的入门书，Maximilian M ary Dean 神父所著的《基督绝对元首入门》。 I also recommend a very good introductory book, A Primer on the Absolute Primacy of Christ by Father Maximilian Mary Dean.
这本书对该主题提供了一个非常好的入门概览。 It’s a very good introduction to the issue.
如果有人想了解托马斯学派在这方面的看法，我也推荐狄伦·施罗德神 父的研究。他既翻译了我先前节目里提到的加尔默罗会“索洛曼主义者 ”的作品，也把自己的博士论文出版成了一本关于索洛曼主义立场的书 ，虽然我自己并不同意那种立场，但那仍是一个值得阅读的有趣观点。 If someone wants a Thomist view on this, I also recommend the work of Father Dylan Schroeder, who has both translated the work of the Carmelite Solomanists I mentioned earlier in the show and has also published his PhD dissertation as a book on the Solomanist position, which I disagree with, but it’s a very interesting position to read about.
至于我个人的工作，我有一个 YouTube 频道。 In terms of my own work, I have a YouTube channel.
因为我现在有孩子了，不幸的是我无法投入太多时间经营频道，但我 会尝试做更多的直播问答形式，和大家互动，以便他们能提问等。 Since I now have a son, I unfortunately don’t have as much time to put into my YouTube channel, but I’m going to be trying to do sort of more just live show Q&As where I talk with people and they can ask me questions and so on.
我还在一个名为「创造神学伙伴」的网站上写博文。 There’s also a blog I write for called the Creation Theology Fellowship.
如果你搜寻 creationtheologyfellowship.org， If you just look up creationtheologyfellowship.org,
你会发现我们在那边有一个博客——里面有很多资源。 we have a blog there—many resources.
我写了一些文章，也有别人撰写的文章。 I write some articles, and other people write articles.
我目前正在为博客编辑一篇别人投稿的关于生物伦理学和创造神学的文章。 I’m editing an article right now for the blog on bioethics and the theology of creation that someone else submitted to us.
我们也在进行一个将临期的专题，探讨创造如何帮助我们反思并预备对道成肉身的迎接。 We’ve actually also been doing an Advent calendar on how creation can help us reflect and prepare for the Incarnation.
如果有人想继续追踪我们这个系列，我另外还受聘协助 组建一个名为「圣巴西流创造神学研究所」的组织。 If people want to continue to follow that, in addition, I have been hired to help start an organization called the St. Basil Institute for the Theology of Creation.
我们的网站还在建设中，希望接下来一两周就能上线。 Our website is still under construction; hopefully in the next week or two it will be up.
我们计划在四月举办一场线上研讨会，讨论为何需要关怀受造界，并且反思 教宗在《愿你受赞颂》中所说的内容。我们邀请了很多优秀的演讲嘉宾。 But we are going to be hosting in April an online conference on our need to care for creation, reflecting on what the Holy Father has said in Laudato Si’. We have a lot of great speakers for that.
例如，我们邀请了贾瑞德·高夫来谈《愿你受赞颂》中涉及的圣文德内容；还邀请了帕 特拉·埃德蒙·瓦尔德斯坦来探讨政治神学与自然哲学，以及关怀受造界的重要性。 Like, we have Jared Goff who will be talking about Bonaventure within Laudato Si’. We have Patra Edmund Waldstein talking about political theology and natural philosophy and the need to care for creation.
我们还有肖恩·道赫提，他将分享身为公教哲学家在永续农业方面的工作。 We have Sean Dougherty who will be talking about his work as a Catholic philosopher in sustainable farming.
所以，我们将有不少关于不同主题的有趣嘉宾，一起围绕《愿你受赞颂》反思。也许 这个节目上线时，我们还没有提供报名链接，但大约在下个月我们会把链接放出来。 So we have quite a number of interesting people on different topics that will be reflecting on Laudato Si’. Probably when this show is up, we will not yet have a link to register, but sometime in the next month we will have a link up to register for that.
太好了！ Incredible!
你提到的所有内容——你的博客、YouTube 频道——我们一定会把链接放在下方。 And definitely everything you talked about—your blog, your YouTube page—we’ll definitely link that down below.
我想先向你请教一下，然后再请德拉加尼执事发言。 Let me pick your brain before I go to Father Deacon right away.
我不确定你刚才有没有提到，但我真的很喜欢。 I don’t know if you brought it up, but I have really enjoyed it.
你会推荐那本书吗？ Would you recommend the book?
我不记得他的名字了，不过那本关于邓斯·司各脱的书是 Cross 写的，出自「伟大的中世纪思想家」系列。 I don't remember his first name, but Cross on Duns Scotus—it's from the Great Medieval Thinker series.
你也会推荐那本书吗？ Would you recommend that book as well?
我不会把它作为邓斯·司各脱的入门读物来推荐，主要是因为 Cros s 是新教徒，所以有时他的著作中会带着些新教色彩的司各脱诠释。 I would not recommend it as an introduction to Scotus, only because Cross is a Protestant, and so we have some somewhat Protestant interpretations of Scotus at times.
不过我以为他已经完全失去了信仰。 I thought he completely lost the faith already, though.
哦，是吗？ Oh, did he?
我不知道这个消息。 I didn't know that.
我觉得他可能确实如此。 I think he did, yeah.
这对我们来说是一个警示。 That is a warning there.
如果你对司各脱更学术、更技术性的研究感兴趣，他确实有一些很有帮助的作品， 尤其是他那本关于司各脱自然哲学的书。如果你想更深入研究，这会很有帮助。 If you're interested in more technical studies of Scotus, he has some very helpful books, especially his book on the natural physics of Scotus, which is very helpful if you’re interested in more in-depth studies.
不过我觉得它不适合当作入门读物来推荐。 But I think I would not recommend it as much as an introduction.
实际上，如果要作为司各脱的入门作品，我会推荐托马斯·沃德的新书《Or dered by Love》，它是一本很好、很适合作为导论的读物。 What I would recommend as an introduction to Scotus, actually, is Thomas Ward's new book Ordered by Love, which is a very good introductory work to Scotus.
很多时候有人问我有哪些关于司各脱的导论作品，确实有不少不错的，比如玛丽·贝丝·英 厄姆的书，可这些书往往假设你已经拥有中世纪哲学学位，并且了解许多相关背景术语。 A lot of times, people ask me about introductions to Scotus, and there’s a lot of good stuff, like Mary Beth Ingham's book, but they all presume you pretty much have a degree in medieval philosophy and know a lot of the background terminology.
而这本《Ordered by Love》并不假设你具备任何额外背景 知识，只需要基本的公教神学，因此我非常推荐托马斯·沃德的这本书。 This work does not assume you know any background terminology whatsoever, beyond basic Catholic theology, so I highly recommend Thomas Ward's book.
太棒了！ Awesome!
德拉加尼执事，在结束之前你还有什么想要补充的吗？ Father Deacon, anything you’d like to say before we wrap up?
好的，有的，有的！ Yes, yes!
首先，在道成肉身这个主题上，我想推荐几本参考书。 First, on the topic of the Incarnation, I want to recommend a couple of resources.
我极力推荐我最喜欢的关于道成肉身的书之一，是圣亚他拿修的著作。 I highly recommend one of my favorite books on the Incarnation by St. Athanasius.
那本书真的非常好——真的非常棒！ It is so good—it is so good!
它很好地阐明了为何道成肉身是我们信仰的核心所在。 It really does a great job of explaining why the Incarnation is at the core of our faith.
所以我非常推荐这本书。 So I highly recommend that.
现在有好几个优秀的译本可供选择；大卫·安德森神父翻译的那个版 本很不错，另一个新版的译本则附有C. S. 路易斯写的前言。 There are a number of good translations out there; there’s one translated by Father David Anderson that’s very good, and there’s a version out there—a newer translation—with a foreword by C.S. Lewis.
因此，我强烈推荐你们读一下圣亚他拿修的那本论道成 肉身的书，也可以看看C. S. 路易斯那篇前言。 Lewis, so I highly recommend checking that one out on the Incarnation by St. Athanasius.
我们也提到了在圣经学领域出现的一些糟糕的基督论。 We also talked about some of the bad Christology that's out there in biblical scholarship.
有一本很好的书能批驳这类糟糕的基督论，叫做《 真实的耶稣》，作者是路克·蒂莫西·约翰逊。 A good book that does a great job of debunking a lot of the bad Christology is called The Real Jesus by Luke Timothy Johnson.
你有看过那本吗？ Have you seen that one?
我看过，是的。 I have, yep.
很棒的一本书！ It’s great!
它对现代圣经学中与耶稣相关、将其去神化的这 种最糟糕的倾向进行了一次相当出色的批驳。 It does a phenomenal job of kind of debunking the worst trends in biblical scholarship related to Jesus, you know, the trend of de-divinizing Him that you find in so much modern scholarship.
所以我推荐去读一读这本书。 So I recommend checking that one out.
此外，如果你对我的作品感兴趣，可以看看我的网 站「From East to West」。 Also, if you’re interested in my stuff, check out my website, From East to West.
我在那里回答问题，也提供了一些东方公教的相关资源 ，展示东方基督教神学与罗马公教神学如何彼此兼容。 I answer questions on there and have resources on Eastern Catholicism, showing how Eastern Christian theology and Roman Catholic theology are compatible.
可以在 east2west.org 找到—— You can find that at east2west.org—that's
east，数字2，west.org。 east, the number two, west.org.
我也参与了一个名为「Becoming Byzantine」的系列，与丹尼尔·多齐 尔神父、迈克尔·温恩神父、EWTN 的罗伯特·克莱斯卡以及其他一些人一起合作。 I’m also part of a series called Becoming Byzantine, which I’ve been doing with Father Daniel Dozier, Father Michael Wynn, and Robert Kleska from EWTN and a few other people.
我们主要是在研读并讨论《基督我们的逾越》这 本教理，解释东方公教在各方面的基本立场。 We’ve been pretty much going through the Catechism, Christ Our Pascha, and explaining the basics of the Eastern Catholic approach to things.
只要在 YouTube 上搜索 Becoming Byzantine 就 能看到我们的频道，而且我们预计在年初（大约一月或二月）还会更新更多影片。 You can find our YouTube channel just by typing in Becoming Byzantine on YouTube, and we have some more videos coming in early in the year, I think January or February as well.
太好了！ Incredible!
德拉加尼执事，非常感谢你拨冗参与。 Father Deacon, thank you very much for your time.
基甸，也同样非常感谢你。 Gideon, thank you very much as well.
德拉加尼执事，能否请你为我们做个祈祷来结束吗？ Father Deacon, could you perhaps pray for us to close the session up?
当然可以！ Certainly!
因圣父、圣子、圣灵之名，阿们。 In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen.
亲爱的神，感谢你让我们得以相聚，也感谢你赐下的诸多祝福…… Dear God, thank You for bringing us together and for the blessings You’ve given us...
我们感谢你赐下道成肉身的恩典，你儿子耶稣基督的 道成肉身，以及它向人类和整个世界所带来的救恩。 Thank you for the gift of Your Incarnation, the Incarnation of Your Son, Jesus Christ, and what it has done to offer to humanity and to the world.
我们祈求在这节期里常常注意真理与善行，更重要的是 ，能在耶稣的名下，好好地活出你忠实仆人的生命。 We ask that we keep focused on what’s true and good during this holiday season and that, more than anything, we live to be worthy servants of You and disciples in Jesus’ name.
阿们。 Amen.
因圣父、圣子、圣灵之名。 In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
阿们。 Amen.
非常感谢你，德拉加尼执事。 Thank you so much, Father Deacon.
非常感谢你，基甸。 Thank you so much, Gideon.
我期待之后邀请基甸来谈道德方面的话题，也想与你一起讨论，德拉加尼执事。 I look forward to having Gideon on to talk about the moral stuff as well as you, Father Deacon.
愿神祝福你们两位，也祝福所有人！ Both of you—all—God bless!
将临期快乐！ Happy Advent!
我期待不久后能再跟你们这几位信仰中的好弟兄继续对话。 I look forward to talking to you incredible brothers in the faith again soon.
非常感谢你们抽出时间！ Thank you so much for your time!
谢谢你们！ Thank you!
感谢你们！ Thank you!
多谢你们！ Thank you!