- start: 0.0
  end: 5.860000134
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Welcome back to Shameless Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer, and today I want to explore the Gnostic strain within Protestantism.
  zh: 欢迎回到无耻教皇党，我是乔·赫什迈尔，今天我想探讨新教中的诺斯底主义倾向。
- start: 5.860000134
  end: 16.300000191000002
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in saying that, I want to be clear up front, I'm not claiming that all Protestants are Gnostics, nor am I saying that only Protestants find themselves tempted by Gnosticism.
  zh: 我想先声明，我并不是说所有新教徒都是诺斯底主义者，也不是说只有新教徒才会受到诺斯底主义的诱惑。
- start: 16.620000839
  end: 23.040000916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But there is a long-standing connection between Gnosticism and Protestantism that I think needs to be called out and condemned.
  zh: 但是诺斯底主义和新教之间长期存在的联系需要被指出并谴责。
- start: 23.440000534
  end: 26.979999542
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, to get there, let's first say, what is Gnosticism?
  zh: 那么，让我们首先说说，什么是诺斯底主义？
- start: 26.979999542
  end: 30.719999313
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Then, why does the Bible condemn Gnosticism as Antichrist?
  zh: 然后，为什么圣经将诺斯底主义谴责为敌基督？
- start: 30.760000229
  end: 39.720001221
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then, how has this perverted theology found a home within our world, and particularly within elements of Protestant worship and theology?
  zh: 最后，这种扭曲的神学是如何在我们的世界中找到立足之地的，特别是在新教崇拜和神学的某些元素中？
- start: 39.939998627
  end: 42.419998169
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So to start with that, what is Gnosticism?
  zh: 那么让我们从这个问题开始，什么是诺斯底主义？
- start: 42.419998169
  end: 46.099998474
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think James White does a good job of capturing what we mean when we talk about Gnosticism.
  zh: 我认为詹姆斯·怀特很好地概括了我们谈论诺斯底主义时的含义。
- start: 46.099998474
  end: 53.060001373
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now I want to be clear, Gnosticism is a complicated group of ideas, a group of ideologies.
  zh: 我想说明的是，诺斯底主义是一组复杂的思想，一组意识形态。
- start: 53.080001831
  end: 54.86000061
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not every Gnostic believed the same thing.
  zh: 并非每个诺斯底主义者都相信相同的东西。
- start: 54.86000061
  end: 60.939998627
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nevertheless, I think this is a good, quick, shorthand kind of summary of what we mean when we talk about Gnostics.
  zh: 尽管如此，我认为这是一个很好的、简洁的概括，说明了我们谈论诺斯底主义者时的含义。
- start: 60.939998627
  end: 63.939998627
  speaker: unknown
  en: Gnosticism is basically a dualistic system.
  zh: 诺斯底主义基本上是一个二元论体系。
- start: 64.160003662
  end: 69.040000916
  speaker: unknown
  en: That which is physical is evil, that which is spiritual is good.
  zh: 物质的是邪恶的，属灵的是善良的。
- start: 69.040000916
  end: 73.620002747
  speaker: unknown
  en: And so man's problem is, you are good on the inside.
  zh: 因此人的问题是，你内在是善良的。
- start: 73.620002747
  end: 78.599998474
  speaker: unknown
  en: Your spiritual self is good, but you're trapped in this evil body.
  zh: 你的属灵自我是善良的，但你被困在这个邪恶的身体里。
- start: 79.059997559
  end: 89.300003052
  speaker: unknown
  en: And salvation is to get out of this evil body, and to be that spark of the divine within you, to be absorbed back into the one.
  zh: 而救赎就是要摆脱这个邪恶的身体，成为你内在的神性火花，被吸收回归于一。
- start: 89.300003052
  end: 95.339996338
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Roger Olson, the Baptist theologian and professor, puts it like this in his book, The Story of Christian Theology.
  zh: 浸信会神学家和教授罗杰·奥尔森在他的著作《基督教神学史》中是这样描述的。
- start: 95.339996338
  end: 105.900001526
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In a nutshell, they, the Gnostics, believe that matter, including the body, is an inherently limiting prison, or even evil drag on the good soul or spirit of the human person.
  zh: 简而言之，诺斯底主义者认为物质，包括身体，本质上是一个限制性的监狱，甚至是对人类灵魂或精神的邪恶拖累。
- start: 105.900001526
  end: 111.580001831
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that the spirit is essentially divine, the spark of God dwelling in the tomb of the body.
  zh: 而精神本质上是神圣的，是居住在身体坟墓中的神性火花。
- start: 111.86000061
  end: 116.040000916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So where do we see that kind of idea floating around today?
  zh: 那么，我们在今天哪里能看到这种思想的流传？
- start: 116.040000916
  end: 125.019996643
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, before we get into the particularly, like, distinctively obviously Protestant kind of versions of it, I want to talk about two popular figures, Oprah Winfrey and Jordan Peterson.
  zh: 在我们讨论那些明显带有新教特色的版本之前，我想先谈谈两个著名人物，奥普拉·温弗瑞和乔丹·彼得森。
- start: 125.019996643
  end: 134.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: First, here's Oprah talking about her own kind of vision of spirituality, and how she considers it something distinct from her Christianity.
  zh: 首先，这是奥普拉谈论她自己的灵性观，以及她如何将其视为与她的基督教信仰不同的东西。
- start: 134.119995117
  end: 139.259994507
  speaker: girl2
  en: We're taking a chance as we tap into our spiritual side.
  zh: 当我们接触我们的灵性一面时，我们正在冒险。
- start: 139.259994507
  end: 142.320007324
  speaker: girl2
  en: Anybody know what their spiritual side is?
  zh: 有人知道他们的灵性一面是什么吗？
- start: 142.399993896
  end: 143.940002441
  speaker: unknown
  en: That's good.
  zh: 那很好。
- start: 144.679992676
  end: 148.919998169
  speaker: girl2
  en: I am not talking about religion.
  zh: 我不是在谈论宗教。
- start: 150.960006714
  end: 153.63999939
  speaker: girl2
  en: I am not talking about religion.
  zh: 我不是在谈论宗教。
- start: 153.63999939
  end: 157.779998779
  speaker: girl2
  en: I am a Christian, that is my faith.
  zh: 我是一个基督徒，那是我的信仰。
- start: 157.779998779
  end: 160.119995117
  speaker: girl2
  en: I'm not asking you to be a Christian.
  zh: 我不是要求你成为基督徒。
- start: 160.119995117
  end: 164.460006714
  speaker: girl2
  en: If you want to be one, I can show you how.
  zh: 如果你想成为一个基督徒，我可以告诉你怎么做。
- start: 164.940002441
  end: 172.100006104
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so clearly, she's saying, I'm a Christian, but in addition to my Christianity, there's this other thing called spirituality.
  zh: 好的，很明显，她在说，我是一个基督徒，但除了我的基督教信仰，还有另一种叫做灵性的东西。
- start: 172.479995728
  end: 174.36000061
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What does that mean?
  zh: 这是什么意思？
- start: 174.460006714
  end: 175.839996338
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, here's how she explains it.
  zh: 好，这是她的解释。
- start: 175.839996338
  end: 181.460006714
  speaker: girl2
  en: That there is no life without a spiritual life.
  zh: 没有灵性生活就没有生命。
- start: 181.460006714
  end: 183.320007324
  speaker: girl2
  en: I want to say that again.
  zh: 我想再说一遍。
- start: 183.320007324
  end: 187.539993286
  speaker: girl2
  en: There is no life without a spiritual life.
  zh: 没有灵性生活就没有生命。
- start: 187.660003662
  end: 196.339996338
  speaker: girl2
  en: Because we are all spiritual beings having a human experience.
  zh: 因为我们都是正在经历人类体验的灵性存在。
- start: 196.559997559
  end: 199.559997559
  speaker: girl2
  en: So are you ready to open your heart?
  zh: 那么你准备好敞开心扉了吗？
- start: 203.740005493
  end: 205.559997559
  speaker: unknown
  en: Are you ready?
  zh: 你准备好了吗？
- start: 209.020004272
  end: 209.899993896
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Think about that.
  zh: 想想这个。
- start: 209.899993896
  end: 218.63999939
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The same crowd that cheered when she said she was a Christian and could show them how to be Christians also cheers when she lays out this clearly Gnostic vision.
  zh: 同样的观众在她说自己是基督徒并可以教他们如何成为基督徒时欢呼，在她阐述这种明显的诺斯底主义观点时也欢呼。
- start: 219.100006104
  end: 224.300003052
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This idea that we are spirit beings who are just kind of having a bodily experience.
  zh: 这种认为我们是正在经历身体体验的灵性存在的想法。
- start: 224.300003052
  end: 231.419998169
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And if that's something you believe as a Christian, I need you to know right now, that is not what Christians believe historically.
  zh: 如果你作为一个基督徒相信这一点，我现在需要你知道，这不是基督徒历史上所相信的。
- start: 231.419998169
  end: 233.820007324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is not what the Bible teaches about the body.
  zh: 这不是圣经关于身体的教导。
- start: 234.020004272
  end: 239.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We are not just spiritual beings having a bodily experience.
  zh: 我们不仅仅是正在经历身体体验的灵性存在。
- start: 239.080001831
  end: 241.160003662
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's the heresy of Gnosticism.
  zh: 那是诺斯底主义的异端。
- start: 241.160003662
  end: 243.740005493
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're just trapped here in these meat suits.
  zh: 我们只是被困在这些肉体中。
- start: 243.740005493
  end: 246.059997559
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is not what Christianity teaches.
  zh: 这不是基督教的教导。
- start: 246.059997559
  end: 247.539993286
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's not what this is about.
  zh: 这不是基督教的本质。
- start: 247.759994507
  end: 251.520004272
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm going to get in more about why that's wrong in a few.
  zh: 我稍后会详细解释为什么这是错误的。
- start: 251.679992676
  end: 253.800003052
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But for now, I want to highlight a second thinker.
  zh: 但现在，我想强调第二个思想家。
- start: 253.800003052
  end: 255.460006714
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is Jordan Peterson.
  zh: 这是乔丹·彼得森。
- start: 255.460006714
  end: 264.980010986
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think a lot of what he's saying can be a little elusive, a little hard to pin down in terms of which things he thinks are literally true and which are just nice images within Christianity.
  zh: 我认为他说的很多东西有点难以捉摸，很难确定他认为哪些是字面上的真理，哪些只是基督教中的美好意象。
- start: 264.980010986
  end: 274.420013428
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I think Alex O'Connor, who is a young atheist, very well spoken on these things, does a good job of trying to pin him on the question.
  zh: 但我认为亚历克斯·奥康纳，一个年轻的无神论者，在这些问题上很有见地，他很好地试图让彼得森对这个问题给出明确答案。
- start: 274.420013428
  end: 283.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That if you treat it all like the resurrection, that sort of thing, as just this beautiful kind of image, that actually sounds much more like Gnosticism.
  zh: 如果你把复活之类的事情都当作一种美好的意象，那实际上听起来更像是诺斯底主义。
- start: 283.0
  end: 292.559997559
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Peterson, for his part, acknowledges that and recognizes that the body has to be of great dignity to be authentically Christian.
  zh: 而彼得森承认这一点，并认识到身体必须具有很高的尊严才能成为真正的基督教。
- start: 292.559997559
  end: 301.700012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: In that early church community, somebody who said, well, this question of the resurrection as a physical, historical event, you're kind of missing the point.
  zh: 在早期教会团体中，有人说，把复活看作一个物理的、历史的事件，你有点没抓住重点。
- start: 301.700012207
  end: 306.380004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: The thing that matters is the resurrection that takes place inside of every person.
  zh: 重要的是发生在每个人内心的复活。
- start: 306.380004883
  end: 310.440002441
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: It sort of sounds a little bit like the kind of approach that you would take.
  zh: 这听起来有点像你会采取的方法。
- start: 310.700012207
  end: 314.839996338
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: If that's true, that would mean that in the early church, you'd have been condemned as a heretic.
  zh: 如果这是真的，那就意味着在早期教会中，你会被谴责为异端。
- start: 315.040008545
  end: 319.980010986
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: So when a modern Catholic says to you, you know, Jordan Peterson, are you a Christian?
  zh: 所以当一个现代天主教徒问你，你知道，乔丹·彼得森，你是基督徒吗？
- start: 320.179992676
  end: 322.140014648
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: What do you think about Catholicism?
  zh: 你对天主教有什么看法？
- start: 322.320007324
  end: 332.559997559
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: I think that the reason that they're interested is because if it's true what I'm saying, then they would have to say, oh, I suppose at least according to my understanding of Catholicism, I can't count you among my number.
  zh: 我认为他们感兴趣的原因是，如果我说的是真的，那么他们就不得不说，哦，我想至少根据我对天主教的理解，我不能把你算作我们中的一员。
- start: 332.559997559
  end: 334.700012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: So I think that's probably why people are interested.
  zh: 所以我认为这可能就是人们感兴趣的原因。
- start: 335.679992676
  end: 337.839996338
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: Well, that's a genuine, what would you say?
  zh: 嗯，这是一个真诚的，你会怎么说？
- start: 337.839996338
  end: 340.920013428
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: That would constitute a genuine form of inquiry for sure.
  zh: 这肯定构成了一种真正的询问形式。
- start: 340.920013428
  end: 343.399993896
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: And I wonder if you feel like you're, I mean, I don't know.
  zh: 我想知道你是否觉得你，我是说，我不知道。
- start: 343.399993896
  end: 359.839996338
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: See, one of the things I really like about the bodily tradition of the resurrection is that it, see what it does that's so remarkable is that it doesn't desacralize the body.
  zh: 看，我真正喜欢复活的身体传统的一点是，它所做的非常了不起的事情是它没有使身体世俗化。
- start: 360.220001221
  end: 361.959991455
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: That's very, very important.
  zh: 这非常非常重要。
- start: 361.959991455
  end: 375.200012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: I think the fundamental problem with Gnosticism is that it becomes a, it's very easy for it to become a doctrine that's contemptuous of the body and contemptuous of the material world.
  zh: 我认为诺斯底主义的根本问题是它变成了一种很容易成为蔑视身体和蔑视物质世界的教义。
- start: 375.200012207
  end: 379.920013428
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: A great deal of the Gnostic tradition literally believes that the material world is created by an evil demon.
  zh: 诺斯底主义传统的很大一部分字面上相信物质世界是由邪恶的恶魔创造的。
- start: 379.920013428
  end: 379.920013428
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Right, exactly.
  zh: 对，没错。
- start: 379.920013428
  end: 382.380004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: Well, exactly, exactly, exactly.
  zh: 嗯，没错，没错，没错。
- start: 382.380004883
  end: 382.380004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: And Jesus comes to save us from that.
  zh: 而耶稣来是为了把我们从那里拯救出来。
- start: 382.380004883
  end: 387.700012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: And the insistence on the bodily resurrection is a medication against that.
  zh: 而坚持身体复活是对抗这种观点的良药。
- start: 387.700012207
  end: 389.239990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: And it's an effective one.
  zh: 而且这是一个有效的方法。
- start: 389.239990234
  end: 392.079986572
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, so that's it in a nutshell.
  zh: 好的，简而言之就是这样。
- start: 392.079986572
  end: 399.619995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you just say the resurrection is a nice image, but it doesn't matter if it's historically true, then you sound much more like the Gnostics.
  zh: 如果你只是说复活是一个美好的意象，但它是否历史真实并不重要，那么你听起来就更像诺斯底主义者。
- start: 399.619995117
  end: 405.640014648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the response is, as Peterson rightly recognizes, is to recognize that there is a centrality to the body.
  zh: 而回应是，正如彼得森正确认识到的，要认识到身体的中心性。
- start: 405.640014648
  end: 410.480010986
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What Gnosticism is presenting is completely opposite Christianity.
  zh: 诺斯底主义所呈现的与基督教完全相反。
- start: 411.440002441
  end: 417.140014648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Gnosticism has rightly been condemned as Antichrist in the pages of the New Testament.
  zh: 诺斯底主义在新约圣经中被正确地谴责为敌基督。
- start: 417.140014648
  end: 418.459991455
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why is that?
  zh: 为什么会这样？
- start: 419.140014648
  end: 425.380004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, in 2 John, in verse 7, it's just one chapter, so chapter 1, verse 7, if you want to put it that way.
  zh: 在约翰二书第7节，只有一章，所以如果你想这么说的话，就是第1章第7节。
- start: 425.640014648
  end: 442.459991455
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says, When we're talking about Antichrist, that word gets bandied about in Christian circles, often with no sense of where it comes from in the Bible.
  zh: 他说，当我们谈论敌基督时，这个词在基督教圈子里被随意使用，常常不知道它在圣经中的出处。
- start: 442.459991455
  end: 443.980010986
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it's here.
  zh: 而它就在这里。
- start: 443.980010986
  end: 448.059997559
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Antichrist is the one who denies Jesus' coming in the flesh.
  zh: 敌基督就是否认耶稣以肉身来临的人。
- start: 449.5
  end: 452.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there's different schools of Gnosticism that are kind of intimated.
  zh: 所以有不同的诺斯底主义学派被暗示。
- start: 452.260009766
  end: 462.799987793
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the most extreme form of Gnosticism, and you heard Alex O'Connor kind of allude to it as well, views Christ coming in the flesh merely as symbolic.
  zh: 而最极端的诺斯底主义形式，你也听到亚历克斯·奥康纳暗示过，认为基督以肉身来临仅仅是象征性的。
- start: 462.799987793
  end: 464.859985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He wasn't actually bodily.
  zh: 他并不是真的有肉身。
- start: 464.859985352
  end: 467.380004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He wasn't physically real.
  zh: 他在物理上并不是真实的。
- start: 467.380004883
  end: 469.079986572
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the flesh is evil.
  zh: 因为肉体是邪恶的。
- start: 469.079986572
  end: 485.640014648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like, if you actually buy this premise, that we're all just spirit beings having a bodily experience, or if you buy the premise that our souls are good and our bodies are bad, this kind of dualistic idea, then it follows from that, that you can't affirm much of the Gospel whatsoever.
  zh: 如果你真的接受这个前提，即我们都只是正在经历身体体验的灵性存在，或者你接受我们的灵魂是好的而身体是坏的这种二元论思想，那么由此可见，你根本无法肯定福音的大部分内容。
- start: 485.640014648
  end: 489.320007324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm going to take seven basic points you can't affirm.
  zh: 我将列举七个你无法肯定的基本要点。
- start: 489.320007324
  end: 501.839996338
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Incarnation, Jesus' public ministry, the institution of the Eucharist, the creation of the Church as the body of Christ, Jesus' bodily crucifixion, Jesus' bodily resurrection, and our own bodily resurrection.
  zh: 道成肉身、耶稣的公开事工、圣餐的设立、教会作为基督身体的创立、耶稣的身体被钉十字架、耶稣的身体复活，以及我们自己的身体复活。
- start: 501.839996338
  end: 509.440002441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm going to go through these very quickly, giving you explicit passages from the Bible that don't square up with Gnosticism.
  zh: 我将快速地讲解这些，给你们引用圣经中与诺斯底主义不符的明确段落。
- start: 509.440002441
  end: 511.420013428
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Number one, the Incarnation.
  zh: 第一，道成肉身。
- start: 511.579986572
  end: 517.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: John begins his Gospel by saying, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  zh: 约翰福音开篇说，太初有道，道与神同在，道就是神。
- start: 517.119995117
  end: 523.359985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This divine Word, he then says, The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
  zh: 这神圣的道，他接着说，道成了肉身，住在我们中间。
- start: 523.359985352
  end: 528.239990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, if flesh is evil, then you have to say the Word became evil and dwelt among us.
  zh: 好吧，如果肉身是邪恶的，那么你就不得不说道变成了邪恶并住在我们中间。
- start: 528.239990234
  end: 544.700012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That just launches the whole thing, because then, flash forward from the Incarnation, 30 years to Jesus' public ministry, and Jesus is going about Galilee, teaching in the synagogues, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and here's the kicker, healing every disease and every infirmity among the people.
  zh: 这就引出了整个问题，因为然后，从道成肉身快进30年到耶稣的公开事工，耶稣走遍加利利，在会堂里教导，宣讲天国的福音，关键是，医治百姓各样的病症与疾病。
- start: 544.780029297
  end: 549.460021973
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why is Jesus healing physical bodies if physical bodies are prisons?
  zh: 如果身体是监狱，为什么耶稣要医治身体呢？
- start: 549.58001709
  end: 559.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like, imagine the great Liberator comes, and instead of unlocking the key to your cell, he just spruces it up so your prison is slightly nicer.
  zh: 想象一下，伟大的解放者来了，但他不是打开你牢房的锁，而是只是稍微美化一下，让你的监狱稍微好一点。
- start: 559.840026855
  end: 562.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He fixes a water pipe that's broken.
  zh: 他修理了一根破损的水管。
- start: 562.479980469
  end: 567.539978027
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That would be what you'd have to say if the body is simply a prison of the soul.
  zh: 如果身体只是灵魂的监狱，你就不得不这么说。
- start: 567.840026855
  end: 570.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Third, the institution of the Eucharist.
  zh: 第三，圣餐的设立。
- start: 570.119995117
  end: 578.400024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In John 6, we're going to get back to this in a big way, Jesus says, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
  zh: 在约翰福音第6章，我们将重点回到这个问题上，耶稣说，你们若不吃人子的肉，不喝人子的血，就没有生命在你们里面。
- start: 578.760009766
  end: 586.940002441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So he is tying, in some way, the eating of his flesh and blood in the Eucharist with eternal life.
  zh: 所以他在某种程度上将在圣餐中吃他的肉和喝他的血与永生联系在一起。
- start: 586.940002441
  end: 593.859985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the institution of the Eucharist ends up being this really critical point in the early fights between the Gnostics and the Christians.
  zh: 因此，圣餐的设立成为早期诺斯底主义者和基督徒之间争论的一个关键点。
- start: 593.859985352
  end: 595.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, there's much that could be said.
  zh: 现在，有很多可以说的。
- start: 595.520019531
  end: 610.900024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can read Ignatius and Irenaeus on this in the 100s, and they keep pointing out that one of the major fault lines between Christians and Gnostics is Christians believe the Eucharist is really the body and blood of Jesus, and Gnostics don't. Next, the church as the body of Christ.
  zh: 你可以阅读二世纪的伊格内修和爱任纽关于这一点的论述，他们一直指出基督徒和诺斯底主义者之间的主要分歧之一是基督徒相信圣餐真的是耶稣的身体和血，而诺斯底主义者不相信。接下来，教会作为基督的身体。
- start: 610.900024414
  end: 611.840026855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What do I mean by that?
  zh: 我这么说是什么意思？
- start: 611.840026855
  end: 617.099975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In Ephesians 5, St. Paul reminds us that no man ever hates his own flesh.
  zh: 在以弗所书第5章，圣保罗提醒我们，从来没有人恨恶自己的身体。
- start: 617.099975586
  end: 618.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Critical line.
  zh: 关键的一句。
- start: 619.08001709
  end: 625.320007324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes it and cherishes it as Christ does the church because we are members of his body.
  zh: 从来没有人恨恶自己的身体，总是保养顾惜，正如基督待教会一样，因为我们是他身上的肢体。
- start: 625.320007324
  end: 632.280029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the whole relationship of Christ and the church, of head and body, presupposes the goodness of the body.
  zh: 所以基督与教会的整个关系，头与身体的关系，都预设了身体的善。
- start: 632.58001709
  end: 635.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That you love your body and that you're right to do so.
  zh: 你爱你的身体，这样做是对的。
- start: 635.840026855
  end: 643.719970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: St. Augustine talks about this, and he points out that a lot of people think they don't love their body, but imagine if it was somebody else.
  zh: 圣奥古斯丁谈到这一点，他指出很多人认为他们不爱自己的身体，但想象一下如果它是别人的身体。
- start: 643.719970703
  end: 646.340026855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Imagine if your body was actually like somebody else's body.
  zh: 想象一下如果你的身体实际上像别人的身体。
- start: 646.340026855
  end: 660.599975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If I said, oh, I hate that person, but you found out I was feeding them multiple times a day, I was bathing them and taking care of them and making sure they got a good night's rest and everything else, you'd say, I don't know, you don't seem to hate them, you seem to be taking incredible care of them.
  zh: 如果我说，哦，我讨厌那个人，但你发现我每天多次给他们喂食，给他们洗澡，照顾他们，确保他们有一个良好的睡眠等等，你会说，我不知道，你似乎并不讨厌他们，你似乎在非常细心地照顾他们。
- start: 660.599975586
  end: 669.700012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But even the person who claims to hate themselves is still eating and drinking and, you know, washing, hopefully, and sleeping and doing all of these things.
  zh: 但即使是声称讨厌自己的人仍然在吃喝，你知道，希望还在洗澡，睡觉，做所有这些事情。
- start: 669.700012207
  end: 674.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're taking care of their body, even if they have this complicated relationship with it.
  zh: 他们在照顾自己的身体，即使他们与身体有这种复杂的关系。
- start: 674.219970703
  end: 693.619995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that idea that no man ever hates his own flesh, we cannot hate our own body to the level we can hate somebody else's. We just can't. And getting that is important to understanding Jesus' relationship to the church, which St. Paul famously calls the body of Christ, which, again, presupposes the body as something good, not evil.
  zh: 所以那种没有人恨恶自己身体的观念，我们不能像恨别人那样恨自己的身体。我们就是做不到。理解这一点对于理解耶稣与教会的关系很重要，圣保罗著名地称教会为基督的身体，这再次预设了身体是好的，而不是邪恶的。
- start: 694.219970703
  end: 697.41998291
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Next, you look at Jesus' crucifixion, right?
  zh: 接下来，你看耶稣的钉十字架，对吧？
- start: 697.41998291
  end: 701.619995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He bore our sins in his body on the tree of the cross.
  zh: 他在十字架上用自己的身体担当了我们的罪。
- start: 702.020019531
  end: 707.820007324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's what we get from 1 Peter 2. And then, of course, his resurrection.
  zh: 这是我们从彼得前书第2章得到的。然后，当然是他的复活。
- start: 708.320007324
  end: 715.099975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's emphasized, contra Gnosticism, that even when Jesus rises from the dead, he is still bodily.
  zh: 与诺斯底主义相反，强调即使耶稣从死里复活，他仍然是有身体的。
- start: 724.140014648
  end: 735.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the resurrection, even though St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 talks about how it's sown a physical body and rises a spiritual body, spiritual there does not mean disembodied.
  zh: 所以，复活，尽管圣保罗在哥林多前书15章谈到如何种下的是血气的身体，复活的是灵性的身体，这里的灵性并不意味着无形体的。
- start: 736.320007324
  end: 739.460021973
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because it doesn't mean spiritual like a spirit, a ghost.
  zh: 因为它不是指像灵魂、鬼魂那样的灵性。
- start: 739.460021973
  end: 740.960021973
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not a ghostly body.
  zh: 它不是一个幽灵般的身体。
- start: 740.960021973
  end: 743.320007324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is transformed.
  zh: 它是被改变了的。
- start: 743.599975586
  end: 747.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is more than what it had been before with physical limitations.
  zh: 它比之前有物理限制的身体更加超越。
- start: 747.5
  end: 750.320007324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it is still the one and the same body.
  zh: 但它仍然是同一个身体。
- start: 750.91998291
  end: 759.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And notice that Jesus says, it is I myself, not my meat suit, not the place I'm having a physical experience or a bodily experience.
  zh: 注意耶稣说，是我自己，不是我的肉体外壳，不是我正在经历物理体验或身体体验的地方。
- start: 759.520019531
  end: 763.719970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He is identifying his body with him himself.
  zh: 他将自己的身体与他自己等同。
- start: 764.520019531
  end: 769.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And contrasting that with a disembodied spiritual experience.
  zh: 并将其与无形体的灵性体验对比。
- start: 770.119995117
  end: 773.700012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Finally, all of that prefigures our own resurrection.
  zh: 最后，所有这些都预示了我们自己的复活。
- start: 774.280029297
  end: 774.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Right?
  zh: 对吧？
- start: 774.520019531
  end: 782.859985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: As St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, passages alluded to, In fact, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
  zh: 正如圣保罗在哥林多前书15章所说的，所提到的段落，事实上，基督已经从死里复活，成为睡了之人初熟的果子。
- start: 782.880004883
  end: 787.880004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
  zh: 既然死是因一人而来，死人复活也是因一人而来。
- start: 787.880004883
  end: 796.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Meaning, our ultimate salvation is rising again bodily, not just being spiritually united with Christ.
  zh: 这意味着，我们最终的救赎是身体的再次复活，而不仅仅是在灵性上与基督联合。
- start: 796.900024414
  end: 799.619995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I say, that last point seems not controversial.
  zh: 我说，最后这一点似乎并不具有争议性。
- start: 799.91998291
  end: 805.659973145
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And here, I think we have a nice segue into the Gnostic strain within Protestantism.
  zh: 在这里，我认为我们有一个很好的过渡来讨论新教中的诺斯底主义倾向。
- start: 805.960021973
  end: 810.280029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, I want to be clear about a couple things at the outset here.
  zh: 所以，我想在开始时明确几点。
- start: 810.280029297
  end: 815.559997559
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: First of all, again, as I said at the beginning, I'm not saying all Protestants are Gnostics.
  zh: 首先，再次强调，正如我一开始所说，我并不是说所有新教徒都是诺斯底主义者。
- start: 815.599975586
  end: 818.479980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Or even if they're consciously adhering to Gnosticism.
  zh: 或者他们是否有意识地坚持诺斯底主义。
- start: 818.479980469
  end: 819.799987793
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Anything like that.
  zh: 诸如此类的任何说法。
- start: 820.320007324
  end: 828.58001709
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Instead, arguing, number one, that the Gnostic ideas of the relationship between the soul and body are very much in the intellectual air that we breathe.
  zh: 相反，我要论证的第一点是，诺斯底主义关于灵魂和身体关系的观念在我们呼吸的知识氛围中非常普遍。
- start: 828.619995117
  end: 832.280029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's a reason, you know, that's why I looked at Oprah Winfrey, Jordan Peterson.
  zh: 你知道，这是有原因的，这就是为什么我关注奥普拉·温弗瑞和乔丹·彼得森。
- start: 832.280029297
  end: 837.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's plenty of other people saying Gnostic-sounding things regularly.
  zh: 还有很多其他人经常说一些听起来像诺斯底主义的话。
- start: 837.020019531
  end: 849.679992676
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And number two, these Gnostic-sounding ideas, which are often directly anti-Christ, are sometimes used by Protestants, specific Protestants, not all, in arguing against Catholicism.
  zh: 第二点，这些听起来像诺斯底主义的观点，通常直接反对基督，有时被新教徒，特定的新教徒，而不是所有人，用来反对天主教。
- start: 849.679992676
  end: 853.58001709
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In arguing against Catholic things, like the idea that baptism does something, that the Eucharist really is Jesus.
  zh: 在反对天主教的事物时，比如洗礼能产生某种效果，圣餐真的是耶稣。
- start: 853.58001709
  end: 854.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All those things.
  zh: 所有这些事情。
- start: 854.840026855
  end: 859.299987793
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The arguments against it, if you listen to them, are sometimes like, wait a second, that's not even a Christian argument.
  zh: 反对这些的论点，如果你仔细听，有时会觉得，等一下，这甚至不是基督教的论点。
- start: 859.299987793
  end: 860.880004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's a Gnostic argument.
  zh: 那是诺斯底主义的论点。
- start: 860.880004883
  end: 862.400024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'll give you plenty of examples.
  zh: 我会给你很多例子。
- start: 862.400024414
  end: 863.859985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Just bear with me.
  zh: 请耐心听我说。
- start: 864.5
  end: 876.799987793
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So sometimes, what motivates people to reject kind of the ideas about the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, is this misunderstanding of the relationship of the body to salvation.
  zh: 所以有时，促使人们拒绝关于圣事的观念，特别是圣餐，是对身体与救赎关系的误解。
- start: 876.91998291
  end: 882.280029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in getting there, I want to highlight several kind of figures.
  zh: 在讨论这个问题时，我想强调几个人物。
- start: 882.280029297
  end: 884.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I want to highlight two in particular.
  zh: 但我特别想强调两个。
- start: 884.0
  end: 885.859985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Fake C.S. Lewis, I'll explain what I mean by that.
  zh: 假的C.S.路易斯，我会解释我的意思。
- start: 885.859985352
  end: 887.440002441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the real Charles Spurgeon.
  zh: 还有真实的查尔斯·司布真。
- start: 887.440002441
  end: 888.940002441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'll explain who that is in a minute.
  zh: 我稍后会解释他是谁。
- start: 888.940002441
  end: 895.059997559
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But before I get there, I want to just point out that this is not something that I just am saying as a non-Protestant.
  zh: 但在我讲到那里之前，我想指出这不仅仅是我作为一个非新教徒在说的。
- start: 895.059997559
  end: 900.679992676
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This isn't just like a Catholic looking in on Protestantism saying, sounds kind of Gnostic.
  zh: 这不仅仅是一个天主教徒看着新教说，听起来有点像诺斯底主义。
- start: 901.460021973
  end: 906.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Plenty of evangelicals are sounding the alarm about Gnosticism within their own ranks.
  zh: 许多福音派人士正在对他们自己队伍中的诺斯底主义敲响警钟。
- start: 906.219970703
  end: 917.440002441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, for instance, Abigail Favale, who teaches at George Fox University, wrote a piece called Evangelical Gnosticism for First Things Magazine back in 2018. And she makes a point.
  zh: 例如，在乔治·福克斯大学任教的阿比盖尔·法瓦莱在2018年为《第一事物》杂志写了一篇名为《福音派诺斯底主义》的文章。她提出了一个观点。
- start: 917.440002441
  end: 921.08001709
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She says, I teach in a great books program at an evangelical university.
  zh: 她说，我在一所福音派大学的经典著作课程中任教。
- start: 921.159973145
  end: 925.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Almost all students in the program are born and bred Christians of the non-denominational variety.
  zh: 该课程中几乎所有的学生都是土生土长的非宗派基督徒。
- start: 926.0
  end: 932.340026855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A number of them have been both thoroughly churched and educated through Christian schools or homeschooling curricula.
  zh: 他们中的许多人都经过了彻底的教会教育，并通过基督教学校或家庭教育课程接受教育。
- start: 932.340026855
  end: 935.619995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, these are not just like surface level nominal Christians.
  zh: 所以，这些不仅仅是表面上的名义基督徒。
- start: 935.619995117
  end: 940.099975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: These are people who have made the decision to go to a Christian college.
  zh: 这些是决定去基督教大学的人。
- start: 941.039978027
  end: 947.840026855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yet, she says, an overwhelming majority of these students do not believe in a bodily resurrection.
  zh: 然而，她说，这些学生中绝大多数不相信身体复活。
- start: 947.960021973
  end: 949.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A majority, she says.
  zh: 她说，是大多数。
- start: 949.119995117
  end: 958.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I can't pull those numbers up myself, but experientially, plenty of evangelical authors have said similar things for decades now.
  zh: 现在，我无法自己提供这些数据，但根据经验，很多福音派作者几十年来一直在说类似的话。
- start: 959.739990234
  end: 972.200012207
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In Favale's words, While they trust in an afterlife of eternal bliss with God, most of them assume that this will be disembodied bliss, in which the soul is finally free of its meat suit, a term they fondly use.
  zh: 用法瓦莱的话说，虽然他们相信与神同在的永恒幸福的来世，但他们中的大多数人认为这将是无形体的幸福，在那里灵魂终于摆脱了它的肉体外壳，这是他们喜欢使用的一个词。
- start: 972.200012207
  end: 975.179992676
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, she goes on to explain, that's not Christianity.
  zh: 现在，她继续解释说，那不是基督教。
- start: 975.179992676
  end: 978.179992676
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's not historic Christianity whatsoever.
  zh: 那根本不是历史上的基督教。
- start: 978.179992676
  end: 982.059997559
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not the Bible presents of salvation, anything like that.
  zh: 这不是圣经所呈现的救赎，或任何类似的东西。
- start: 982.059997559
  end: 984.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is much more Gnostic sounding.
  zh: 那听起来更像是诺斯底主义。
- start: 984.219970703
  end: 994.940002441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, this idea of being free from the prison of the body, free from the meat suit, all explicitly Gnostic sounding, you find things that sound like that in the reformers.
  zh: 现在，这种从身体的监狱中解脱，从肉体外壳中解脱的想法，都明显听起来像诺斯底主义，你在改革者的言论中能找到类似的东西。
- start: 994.940002441
  end: 1014.08001709
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, John Calvin, the Calvinist reformer, obviously, and Institutes of Christian Religion, says that Christ, in commending his spirit to the Father, and Stephen, his spirit, that is, to Christ, simply mean that when the soul is freed from the prison house of the body, God becomes its perpetual keeper.
  zh: 所以，加尔文主义改革者约翰·加尔文，显然在《基督教要义》中说，基督将他的灵魂交托给父，而司提反将他的灵魂交托给基督，这仅仅意味着当灵魂从身体的监狱中解脱出来时，神成为它永恒的守护者。
- start: 1014.820007324
  end: 1023.280029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Maybe he doesn't mean, Soma Sema, the early, like, Platonic and Gnostic expression, that the body is just a prison.
  zh: 也许他不是指「身体即坟墓」这种早期柏拉图式和诺斯底主义的表达，即身体只是一个监狱。
- start: 1023.280029297
  end: 1027.420043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But he is describing the body as a prison house for the soul.
  zh: 但他确实在将身体描述为灵魂的监狱。
- start: 1027.420043945
  end: 1030.420043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Which, again, is hard to square.
  zh: 这再次很难调和。
- start: 1030.420043945
  end: 1039.479980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I realize that you can find, sometimes even in medieval Catholicism, people speaking in that way, with such an exaggerated kind of role of the wretchedness of the body.
  zh: 现在，我意识到你可以发现，有时甚至在中世纪的天主教中，人们也会这样说，过分夸大身体的可悲角色。
- start: 1039.479980469
  end: 1041.420043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that is not Christianity.
  zh: 但那不是基督教。
- start: 1041.420043945
  end: 1047.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like, that is not the proper understanding of the body, laid out by the New Testament or affirmed by the Church for 2,000 years.
  zh: 那不是新约圣经所阐述或教会两千年来所确认的对身体的正确理解。
- start: 1048.16003418
  end: 1059.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to take this one line and build too much of it, except to say that it isn't just, like, modern evangelicals that are saying things that sound like the body is just a bad thing.
  zh: 所以，你知道，我不想过分解读这一句话，只是想说不仅仅是现代福音派在说一些听起来像是身体只是坏东西的话。
- start: 1059.699951172
  end: 1061.239990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can find that much earlier.
  zh: 你可以在更早的时候就发现这种说法。
- start: 1061.239990234
  end: 1064.680053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that doesn't square, as I say, with historic Christianity.
  zh: 正如我所说，这与历史上的基督教不符。
- start: 1064.680053711
  end: 1070.880004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Contrast it with the Nicene Creed, which says, to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.
  zh: 与之相对的是尼西亚信经，其中说到，期待死人复活和来世的生命。
- start: 1071.099975586
  end: 1073.66003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The resurrection of the dead is not a spiritual resurrection.
  zh: 死人的复活不是灵性的复活。
- start: 1073.66003418
  end: 1077.569946289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We already believe that you will be spiritually with God before that.
  zh: 我们已经相信在那之前你会在灵性上与神同在。
- start: 1077.569946289
  end: 1079.469970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that's not the end of things.
  zh: 但那不是事情的结束。
- start: 1079.469970703
  end: 1086.229980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That we are looking forward to the day in which our soul, already present with God, is reunited with our now glorified body.
  zh: 我们期待着那一天，我们已经与神同在的灵魂，与我们现在荣耀的身体重新结合。
- start: 1086.41003418
  end: 1090.770019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's the Christian vision vis-a-vis the Gnostic one.
  zh: 这是基督教的愿景，与诺斯底主义的愿景相对。
- start: 1090.790039062
  end: 1093.229980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Going back to Vivaldi here, she says this.
  zh: 回到维瓦尔迪这里，她是这么说的。
- start: 1093.229980469
  end: 1102.209960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She says, that are at odds with the Christian understanding of personhood.
  zh: 她说，这与基督教对人格的理解相矛盾。
- start: 1102.329956055
  end: 1106.310058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The body is associated with sin, the soul with holiness.
  zh: 身体与罪联系在一起，灵魂与圣洁联系在一起。
- start: 1106.41003418
  end: 1111.869995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Moreover, this sense of the body, especially under the alias flesh, tends to be hyper-sexualized.
  zh: 此外，这种对身体的理解，特别是在「肉体」这个别名下，往往被过度性化。
- start: 1111.869995117
  end: 1122.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so she makes the point that there is this extreme focus on sexual sin, and an under-emphasis on the less bodily forms of sin, you know, pride, that sort of thing.
  zh: 所以她指出，这种观点过分关注性罪，而对不那么身体化的罪，你知道，比如骄傲之类的，关注不够。
- start: 1123.030029297
  end: 1128.329956055
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that this is a total perversion, a total distortion of Christianity.
  zh: 这是对基督教的完全歪曲和扭曲。
- start: 1128.329956055
  end: 1132.670043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is, again, to quote St. John's words, Antichrist.
  zh: 再次引用圣约翰的话，这是敌基督。
- start: 1132.989990234
  end: 1141.130004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To view the body in this way, as just like the body is the problem, completely misunderstands the spiritual problem that we're facing.
  zh: 以这种方式看待身体，就好像身体就是问题，这完全误解了我们面临的属灵问题。
- start: 1141.130004883
  end: 1145.010009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So here, I want to transition into real vs. fake C.S. Lewis.
  zh: 所以在这里，我想转向真实的与虚假的C.S.路易斯的对比。
- start: 1145.010009766
  end: 1146.349975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now what am I talking about here?
  zh: 我在这里说的是什么？
- start: 1146.349975586
  end: 1151.790039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There is a fake C.S. Lewis quote that many years ago, I fell for, I think like 13 years ago.
  zh: 有一句假的C.S.路易斯的引言，多年前我上当了，我想是13年前。
- start: 1151.790039062
  end: 1154.609985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, look, past me, not perfect.
  zh: 所以，看，过去的我并不完美。
- start: 1154.770019531
  end: 1160.949951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And when you actually think about the quote, it is, well, here's the quotation.
  zh: 当你真正思考这句话时，它是，好吧，这就是那句引言。
- start: 1161.08996582
  end: 1170.209960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, this is not really C.S. Lewis, but it is widely quoted, by Protestants usually, as being Lewis, and usually in a positive sense.
  zh: 再说一遍，这不是C.S.路易斯真正说的，但它被广泛引用，通常是新教徒引用，认为是路易斯说的，而且通常是以积极的意义引用。
- start: 1170.229980469
  end: 1172.08996582
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: You don't have a soul.
  zh: 你没有灵魂。
- start: 1172.829956055
  end: 1174.469970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: You are the soul.
  zh: 你就是灵魂。
- start: 1175.449951172
  end: 1177.030029297
  speaker: unknown
  en: You have a body.
  zh: 你有一个身体。
- start: 1177.030029297
  end: 1186.449951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, as I say, I fell for this many years ago, and at the time it was like, oh, it's great to see somebody affirming the goodness and existence of the soul, instead of all these atheists saying we don't have souls.
  zh: 正如我所说，多年前我也相信了这句话，当时感觉很好，看到有人肯定灵魂的善良和存在，而不是像那些无神论者说我们没有灵魂。
- start: 1186.449951172
  end: 1195.930053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And maybe that's what's going on when this fake C.S. Lewis quote gets quoted by people like John Piper or Ravi Zacharias, who actually quotes it in one of his books.
  zh: 也许这就是为什么这句假的C.S.路易斯引言被约翰·派珀或拉维·撒迦利亚这样的人引用，后者实际上在他的一本书中引用了这句话。
- start: 1196.310058594
  end: 1201.229980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the reality is, if you actually think about what is being said there, it's just false.
  zh: 但事实是，如果你真正思考那里所说的内容，它是错误的。
- start: 1201.75
  end: 1203.930053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You are not just a soul who has a body.
  zh: 你不仅仅是一个拥有身体的灵魂。
- start: 1203.930053711
  end: 1206.430053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're not just a spiritual person having a bodily experience.
  zh: 你不仅仅是一个正在经历身体体验的属灵人。
- start: 1206.430053711
  end: 1208.209960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You are the union of body and soul.
  zh: 你是身体和灵魂的结合。
- start: 1208.209960938
  end: 1211.790039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And C.S. Lewis actually got that.
  zh: 而C.S.路易斯实际上理解这一点。
- start: 1211.790039062
  end: 1220.489990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Joe Rigney, in his book Lewis on the Christian Life, Rigney is an evangelical author, I believe, and he is quoting Lewis favorably.
  zh: 所以乔·里格尼在他的书《路易斯论基督徒生活》中，里格尼是一位福音派作家，我相信，他赞同地引用了路易斯的话。
- start: 1220.849975586
  end: 1229.989990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That in contrast to that kind of vision, Christianity insists God never meant man to be a purely spiritual creature.
  zh: 与那种观点相反，基督教坚持认为神从未打算让人成为纯粹的属灵生物。
- start: 1230.290039062
  end: 1231.91003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then there's an ellipsis.
  zh: 然后有一个省略号。
- start: 1232.829956055
  end: 1235.08996582
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the line continues.
  zh: 这句话继续说。
- start: 1235.08996582
  end: 1235.930053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He likes matter.
  zh: 他喜欢物质。
- start: 1235.930053711
  end: 1237.130004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He invented it.
  zh: 他发明了它。
- start: 1237.130004883
  end: 1240.569946289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, Rigney is not doing full service to this quotation.
  zh: 现在，里格尼并没有完全忠实于这段引文。
- start: 1240.569946289
  end: 1241.109985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I get it.
  zh: 我明白了。
- start: 1241.109985352
  end: 1241.650024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a book.
  zh: 这是一本书。
- start: 1241.650024414
  end: 1243.209960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You have to make editorial decisions.
  zh: 你必须做出编辑决定。
- start: 1243.209960938
  end: 1245.849975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can't quote everybody at length on everything.
  zh: 你不能对每件事都长篇大论地引用每个人的话。
- start: 1245.849975586
  end: 1255.130004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it does seem striking to me that for an evangelical audience, what Lewis actually said is kind of censored, because what Lewis actually said...
  zh: 但对我来说，令人惊讶的是，对于福音派读者，路易斯实际说的话被某种程度上审查了，因为路易斯实际说的是...
- start: 1255.310058594
  end: 1263.810058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, I mean, I like that these are actually Lewis's words, unlike Piper and Zacharias quoting an imaginary version of Lewis where it's not anything he ever said.
  zh: 所以，我的意思是，我喜欢这些确实是路易斯的话，不像派珀和撒迦利亚引用的是路易斯从未说过的想象版本。
- start: 1264.030029297
  end: 1278.510009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But here, it's still censored, because Lewis actually uses the Blessed Sacrament, even though he's a Protestant and Anglican, he uses the Blessed Sacrament as an example of how God wants to work spiritually in a bodily way.
  zh: 但在这里，它仍然被审查了，因为路易斯实际上使用了圣体圣事，尽管他是新教徒和圣公会信徒，他用圣体圣事作为例子来说明神如何想要以身体的方式在灵性上工作。
- start: 1278.510009766
  end: 1279.810058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He does this in mere Christianity.
  zh: 他在《返璞归真》中这样做。
- start: 1279.810058594
  end: 1281.449951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's where this line is coming from.
  zh: 这句话就是从那里来的。
- start: 1281.449951172
  end: 1286.609985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I'm going to give you a lengthy version, maybe more lengthy than I need to, just to make sure you get the context.
  zh: 我会给你一个较长的版本，可能比我需要的还要长，只是为了确保你理解上下文。
- start: 1286.91003418
  end: 1295.550048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says, when Christians speak of being in Christ or of Christ being in them, that is not simply a way of saying that they are thinking about Christ or copying him.
  zh: 他说，当基督徒谈到在基督里或基督在他们里面时，这不仅仅是说他们在思考基督或模仿他。
- start: 1295.58996582
  end: 1303.890014648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They mean that Christ is actually operating through them, that the whole mass of Christians are the physical organism through which Christ acts.
  zh: 他们的意思是基督实际上通过他们运作，整个基督徒群体是基督行动的物质有机体。
- start: 1303.890014648
  end: 1306.969970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We are his fingers and muscles, the cells of his body.
  zh: 我们是他的手指和肌肉，是他身体的细胞。
- start: 1307.369995117
  end: 1310.670043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And perhaps that explains one or two things.
  zh: 也许这解释了一两件事。
- start: 1310.670043945
  end: 1321.670043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It explains why this new life, meaning the life of grace, is spread not only by purely mental acts like belief, but by bodily acts like baptism and Holy Communion.
  zh: 它解释了为什么这种新生命，即恩典的生命，不仅通过纯粹的精神行为如信仰传播，还通过身体行为如洗礼和圣餐传播。
- start: 1321.890014648
  end: 1324.010009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is not merely the spreading of an idea.
  zh: 这不仅仅是一个观念的传播。
- start: 1324.010009766
  end: 1327.930053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is more like evolution, a biological or super biological fact.
  zh: 它更像是进化，一个生物学或超生物学的事实。
- start: 1328.709960938
  end: 1347.369995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, we're going to get into this because as you're going to see, people like Charles Spurgeon, who we're going to talk about in a few, really object to that idea, this Christian idea, that the new life is spread in not just mental ways, but in bodily ways through things like baptism and Holy Communion.
  zh: 现在，我们将深入讨论这个问题，因为你将看到，像查尔斯·司布真这样的人，我们稍后会谈到，他们真的反对这种基督教观念，即新生命不仅通过精神方式传播，还通过洗礼和圣餐等身体方式传播。
- start: 1347.369995117
  end: 1354.510009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He rejects that communion or baptism can do anything because he rejects the idea of the body having this role to play in salvation.
  zh: 他拒绝圣餐或洗礼能做任何事，因为他拒绝身体在救赎中扮演这种角色的观念。
- start: 1354.510009766
  end: 1358.150024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But this is clearly a difference of opinion.
  zh: 但这显然是意见的分歧。
- start: 1358.150024414
  end: 1361.310058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Lewis goes on to say, there is no good trying to be more spiritual than God.
  zh: 路易斯接着说，试图比神更属灵是没有好处的。
- start: 1361.310058594
  end: 1363.050048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is where it gets quoted earlier.
  zh: 这就是前面引用的地方。
- start: 1363.08996582
  end: 1366.010009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God never meant man to be a purely spiritual creature.
  zh: 神从未打算让人成为纯粹的属灵生物。
- start: 1366.430053711
  end: 1371.530029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is why he uses material things like bread and wine to put the new life into us.
  zh: 这就是为什么他使用面包和酒这样的物质来将新生命注入我们。
- start: 1372.069946289
  end: 1374.030029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We may think this rather crude and unspiritual.
  zh: 我们可能认为这相当粗糙和不属灵。
- start: 1374.030029297
  end: 1374.770019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God does not.
  zh: 神并不这么认为。
- start: 1374.770019531
  end: 1375.790039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He invented eating.
  zh: 他发明了进食。
- start: 1375.790039062
  end: 1376.790039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He likes matter.
  zh: 他喜欢物质。
- start: 1376.790039062
  end: 1377.849975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He invented it.
  zh: 他发明了它。
- start: 1377.849975586
  end: 1381.469970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you can see Lewis's actual lines are much more Eucharistic sounding.
  zh: 所以你可以看到路易斯的实际话语听起来更像是关于圣餐的。
- start: 1381.469970703
  end: 1395.630004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Even though, again, Lewis is not completely with Catholics on Eucharistic theology, he at least has a much higher view and recognizes that God is doing something bodily and spiritually in the Eucharist.
  zh: 尽管再次强调，路易斯在圣餐神学上并不完全与天主教一致，但他至少有一个更高的观点，认识到神在圣餐中同时在身体和灵性上做工。
- start: 1395.630004883
  end: 1397.209960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a pretty fascinating kind of line.
  zh: 这是一种相当引人入胜的说法。
- start: 1397.209960938
  end: 1402.449951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You see, frankly, how close Lewis is at times to the Catholic vision of things.
  zh: 坦白说，你看到路易斯有时多么接近天主教的观点。
- start: 1402.449951172
  end: 1408.770019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, but I want to turn from Lewis, who gets things largely right, to Charles Spurgeon, who gets things largely wrong.
  zh: 好的，但我想从大体上正确的路易斯转向大体上错误的查尔斯·司布真。
- start: 1408.770019531
  end: 1412.41003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I'm not just choosing Charles Spurgeon because he's extremely handsome.
  zh: 我选择查尔斯·司布真不仅仅是因为他非常英俊。
- start: 1412.41003418
  end: 1413.349975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm joking there.
  zh: 我在开玩笑。
- start: 1413.349975586
  end: 1421.869995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For those who aren't watching the video, I've been compared to him numerous times, which I don't know is a compliment, but I'll take it because it is absolutely accurate.
  zh: 对于那些没有看视频的人，我多次被拿来与他比较，我不知道这是不是赞美，但我接受，因为这绝对准确。
- start: 1422.550048828
  end: 1430.290039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I quote Spurgeon because he has this incredible place within certain elements of Protestantism.
  zh: 但我引用司布真是因为他在新教某些派别中有着令人难以置信的地位。
- start: 1430.670043945
  end: 1436.790039062
  speaker: unknown
  en: Spurgeon is easily regarded the greatest Baptist preacher who has ever lived.
  zh: 司布真很容易被认为是有史以来最伟大的浸信会传教士。
- start: 1437.130004883
  end: 1444.989990234
  speaker: unknown
  en: But I would add to that he is the greatest preacher of the English language who has ever lived.
  zh: 但我要补充的是，他是有史以来最伟大的英语传教士。
- start: 1445.189941406
  end: 1454.709960938
  speaker: unknown
  en: I would add to that Spurgeon, I think, is arguably the greatest preacher since the Apostle Paul.
  zh: 我还要补充，我认为司布真可以说是自使徒保罗以来最伟大的传教士。
- start: 1454.709960938
  end: 1456.270019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And look, I want to agree.
  zh: 看，我想同意。
- start: 1456.329956055
  end: 1458.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Spurgeon is a brilliant preacher.
  zh: 司布真是一位出色的传教士。
- start: 1458.25
  end: 1460.569946289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He is extremely eloquent.
  zh: 他非常有口才。
- start: 1460.569946289
  end: 1463.41003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Unfortunately, he is often completely wrong.
  zh: 不幸的是，他经常完全错误。
- start: 1463.41003418
  end: 1469.08996582
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so I want to focus on a particular sermon that he preached in 1865 called A Blow for Piusiism.
  zh: 所以我想重点讨论他在1865年讲的一篇特别的讲道，名为《对牛津运动的一击》。
- start: 1469.709960938
  end: 1471.550048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Piusiism is high church Anglicanism.
  zh: 牛津运动是高教会圣公会。
- start: 1471.550048828
  end: 1483.469970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the most famous kind of devotee of this movement was Piusi's kind of protege, John Henry Newman, who famously becomes a Catholic cardinal and now a saint.
  zh: 这个运动最著名的追随者是普西的一种门生，约翰·亨利·纽曼，他后来成为著名的天主教枢机主教，现在是圣人。
- start: 1483.469970703
  end: 1494.010009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it was a movement in the 19th century, Anglican church, to try to restore its connections to Catholicism and make it less Protestant, more Catholic kind of religion.
  zh: 但这是19世纪圣公会的一场运动，试图恢复其与天主教的联系，使其变得不那么新教，更像天主教的宗教。
- start: 1494.010009766
  end: 1507.109985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In any case, he's going to respond to Piusiism and, by extension, to Catholic visions of things more broadly by relying on basically a single verse that he quotes over and over and over again.
  zh: 无论如何，他将回应牛津运动，并进一步回应天主教的广泛观点，主要依赖于他反复引用的一节经文。
- start: 1507.109985352
  end: 1512.989990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: John 6, 63, in which Jesus says, It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail.
  zh: 约翰福音6章63节，耶稣说，叫人活着的乃是灵，肉体是无益的。
- start: 1513.170043945
  end: 1515.609985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The words that I've spoken to you are spirit and life.
  zh: 我对你们所说的话就是灵，就是生命。
- start: 1515.609985352
  end: 1522.349975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I've done an entire video on this, but I need to briefly say something on it because it is a pretty major part of his objection.
  zh: 我已经做了一整个视频来讲这个，但我需要简单地说一下，因为这是他反对的一个主要部分。
- start: 1522.869995117
  end: 1528.880004883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In this context, the question is, is Jesus deriding his own flesh?
  zh: 在这个背景下，问题是，耶稣是在贬低他自己的肉体吗？
- start: 1528.880004883
  end: 1531.479980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Or is he deriding the value of our unaided flesh?
  zh: 还是他在贬低我们未得帮助的肉体的价值？
- start: 1531.479980469
  end: 1534.099975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the answer is very clearly the second one.
  zh: 答案很明显是第二个。
- start: 1534.099975586
  end: 1536.920043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Our unaided flesh is of no avail.
  zh: 我们未得帮助的肉体是无益的。
- start: 1537.020019531
  end: 1539.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we know this for several reasons.
  zh: 我们知道这一点有几个原因。
- start: 1539.119995117
  end: 1547.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: First, from John 6 itself, earlier in the passage, Jesus says, that the bread which he'll give for the life of the world is my flesh.
  zh: 首先，从约翰福音第6章本身，在前面的段落中，耶稣说，我所要赐的粮就是我的肉，为世人之生命所赐的。
- start: 1547.060058594
  end: 1550.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when he talks about my flesh, he does not say it is worthless.
  zh: 所以当他谈到他的肉时，他并没有说它是无价值的。
- start: 1550.040039062
  end: 1552.420043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He describes it as salvific.
  zh: 他将其描述为有救赎作用的。
- start: 1552.5
  end: 1559.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then a couple of verses later, he says, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
  zh: 然后几节之后，他说，你们若不吃人子的肉，不喝人子的血，就没有生命在你们里面。
- start: 1559.060058594
  end: 1562.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
  zh: 吃我肉、喝我血的人就有永生。
- start: 1562.459960938
  end: 1565.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So clearly his flesh is of tremendous value.
  zh: 所以很明显，他的肉是极其宝贵的。
- start: 1566.420043945
  end: 1569.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so how should we understand this passage?
  zh: 那么我们应该如何理解这段经文？
- start: 1569.060058594
  end: 1580.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, flesh is used in several ways, but when we talk about the flesh as opposed to the Spirit, we don't mean, you know, body bad, soul good, the way the Gnostics do.
  zh: 嗯，「肉体」这个词有几种用法，但当我们谈到与圣灵相对的肉体时，我们不是指诺斯底主义者那样的「身体坏，灵魂好」。
- start: 1580.0
  end: 1585.400024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We mean instead, unaided humanity is incapable of doing the things necessary.
  zh: 相反，我们的意思是，未得帮助的人性无法做必要的事。
- start: 1585.400024414
  end: 1593.959960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: St. Paul talks about this explicitly in Romans 8. He says, Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh.
  zh: 圣保罗在罗马书第8章明确谈到这一点。他说，随从肉体的人体贴肉体的事。
- start: 1593.959960938
  end: 1597.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
  zh: 随从圣灵的人体贴圣灵的事。
- start: 1597.300048828
  end: 1599.16003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So who are you trying to gratify?
  zh: 所以你试图满足谁？
- start: 1599.180053711
  end: 1600.319946289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yourself or God?
  zh: 你自己还是神？
- start: 1600.319946289
  end: 1602.479980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That doesn't mean you are wicked and evil and awful.
  zh: 这并不意味着你邪恶、可怕。
- start: 1602.479980469
  end: 1607.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if you are taking the place of God, that is wicked.
  zh: 但如果你取代神的位置，那就是邪恶的。
- start: 1607.040039062
  end: 1612.439941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like if you are serving yourself rather than God, you're serving the flesh.
  zh: 就像如果你服侍自己而不是神，你就是在服侍肉体。
- start: 1612.560058594
  end: 1616.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Even if what you're doing is at the level of, as St. Paul says here, the mind.
  zh: 即使你所做的是在思想层面上，正如圣保罗在这里所说的。
- start: 1616.459960938
  end: 1626.319946289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Likewise in Ephesians 2, he says, Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, which doesn't mean sexual passions, like it might to an evangelical ear.
  zh: 同样在以弗所书第2章，他说，我们从前也都在其中，放纵肉体的私欲，这并不意味着性欲，就像福音派听众可能理解的那样。
- start: 1626.319946289
  end: 1629.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says, Following the desires of body and mind.
  zh: 他说，随从肉体和心中所喜好的去行。
- start: 1629.560058594
  end: 1631.800048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's much bigger than sexuality.
  zh: 这比性欲要广泛得多。
- start: 1632.060058594
  end: 1643.540039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This means that there can be purely disembodied things, like for instance pride, that are still fleshly in this sense of flesh.
  zh: 这意味着可能存在纯粹非身体的东西，比如骄傲，在这种肉体的意义上仍然是属肉体的。
- start: 1643.540039062
  end: 1645.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Fleshly here does not mean bodily.
  zh: 这里的属肉体并不意味着身体的。
- start: 1645.459960938
  end: 1651.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You'll notice in this use of flesh, Paul explicitly highlights both body and mind.
  zh: 你会注意到，在这种对肉体的使用中，保罗明确强调了身体和心思。
- start: 1651.719970703
  end: 1660.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if your idea is that flesh, to Paul or to John, means body, when it's used in this negative sense, it does not.
  zh: 所以如果你认为对保罗或约翰来说，肉体意味着身体，当它被用在这种负面意义上时，其实并不是。
- start: 1660.300048828
  end: 1664.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you can see that in several places, like here.
  zh: 你可以在几个地方看到这一点，就像这里。
- start: 1664.380004883
  end: 1666.599975586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Augustine talks about this, I'm going to get into that.
  zh: 奥古斯丁谈到了这一点，我将讨论这个。
- start: 1666.599975586
  end: 1672.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what you need to know here is, that's not how Spurgeon reads this.
  zh: 但你需要知道的是，这不是司布真理解这段经文的方式。
- start: 1672.040039062
  end: 1674.859985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Spurgeon reads it in a much more Gnostic way.
  zh: 司布真以一种更加诺斯底的方式理解它。
- start: 1674.859985352
  end: 1687.900024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To say, okay, well if John 6.63 is true, that the spirit gives life and the flesh is of no avail, that must mean, for instance, that true Christianity is this internal thing, rather than an external thing.
  zh: 他说，好吧，如果约翰福音6:63是真的，即圣灵赐生命，肉体是无益的，那就必须意味着，例如，真正的基督教是内在的事，而不是外在的事。
- start: 1687.900024414
  end: 1706.400024414
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: The Jews commonly thought that religion lay in ceremonial observances, in eating certain meats, or abstinence from them, in washings of the hands before meat, in diverse baptisms, in going up to the temple to pray, and such like outward performances.
  zh: 犹太人通常认为宗教在于仪式性的遵守，在于吃某些肉或禁戒某些肉，在于饭前洗手，在于各种洗礼，在于上圣殿祷告，以及诸如此类的外在表现。
- start: 1706.920043945
  end: 1712.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: Jesus tells them to their faces that this flesh religion profiteth nothing.
  zh: 耶稣当面告诉他们，这种肉体的宗教毫无益处。
- start: 1712.380004883
  end: 1716.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: It is dead, unquickened, and unquickening.
  zh: 它是死的，未被点活的，也不能点活人的。
- start: 1716.300048828
  end: 1725.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if all this external stuff that he keeps saying the Jews tried is just ceremonial and worthless, what is true religion, according to this view?
  zh: 那么，如果他一直说犹太人尝试的所有这些外在的东西只是仪式性的和无价值的，根据这种观点，什么是真正的宗教？
- start: 1725.300048828
  end: 1727.66003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: What then is the life of godliness?
  zh: 那么什么是敬虔的生活？
- start: 1728.180053711
  end: 1731.66003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: What is the vitality and essence of acceptable worship?
  zh: 什么是可接受的敬拜的活力和本质？
- start: 1731.979980469
  end: 1743.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: His answer virtually is, it is not your outward observances, but your inward emotions, desires, believings, and adorings, which are living worship.
  zh: 他的回答实际上是，不是你的外在遵守，而是你内心的情感、欲望、信仰和崇拜，这些才是活的敬拜。
- start: 1744.079956055
  end: 1751.619995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: Then he adds, in effect, my words are not concerning outward observances, but are of a spiritual character.
  zh: 然后他实际上补充说，我的话不是关于外在的遵守，而是具有属灵的特性。
- start: 1751.859985352
  end: 1761.020019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: I come not to you with touch not, taste not, handle not, or with wash, vow, stand, sit, kneel.
  zh: 我来到你们这里，不是带着不可摸、不可尝、不可拿，或者洗、许愿、站、坐、跪。
- start: 1761.33996582
  end: 1767.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: My words deal with inner life and spirit, and are addressed to your spiritual natures.
  zh: 我的话是关于内在生命和灵性的，是针对你们的属灵本性的。
- start: 1767.219970703
  end: 1772.540039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: The words which I speak unto you are spirit and life.
  zh: 我对你们所说的话就是灵，就是生命。
- start: 1775.780029297
  end: 1783.239990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: Our first point will be the unprofitable flesh, the external observances of religion in themselves utterly unprofitable.
  zh: 我们的第一点将是无益的肉体，宗教的外在遵守本身是完全无益的。
- start: 1783.239990234
  end: 1784.66003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's the contrast.
  zh: 这就是对比。
- start: 1784.66003418
  end: 1796.859985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, you could not have said this better if you were just directly quoting an Gnostic, that all the external stuff is completely worthless, and all that matters is this interior thing, your thoughts and emotions and feelings and all that.
  zh: 我的意思是，如果你直接引用诺斯底主义者的话，也不会比这说得更好，即所有外在的东西都完全无价值，重要的只是内在的东西，你的思想、情感和感受等等。
- start: 1796.939941406
  end: 1799.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is quite opposite Scripture.
  zh: 这与圣经完全相反。
- start: 1800.0
  end: 1812.579956055
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like, religion that is pure and undefiled before God, according to James, in James 1.27, religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is as to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
  zh: 就像雅各书1:27所说，在神我们的父面前，那清洁没有玷污的虔诚，就是看顾在患难中的孤儿寡妇，并且保守自己不沾染世俗。
- start: 1812.579956055
  end: 1815.800048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, you'll notice that involves external action.
  zh: 现在，你会注意到这涉及外在行为。
- start: 1816.0
  end: 1822.119995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Likewise, when St. Paul is describing spiritual worship, he doesn't mean spiritual worship as disembodied.
  zh: 同样，当圣保罗描述属灵敬拜时，他并不是指无形体的属灵敬拜。
- start: 1822.119995117
  end: 1833.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says instead, in Romans 12, I appealed to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
  zh: 相反，他在罗马书12章说，所以弟兄们，我以神的慈悲劝你们，将身体献上，当作活祭，是圣洁的，是神所喜悦的，你们如此事奉乃是理所当然的。
- start: 1834.099975586
  end: 1835.699951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is the contrast you're going to see.
  zh: 这就是你将看到的对比。
- start: 1835.699951172
  end: 1838.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: St. Paul's idea of spiritual worship is bodily worship.
  zh: 圣保罗的属灵敬拜观念是身体的敬拜。
- start: 1839.140014648
  end: 1842.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Spurgeon's idea of spiritual worship is disembodied, purely internal worship.
  zh: 司布真的属灵敬拜观念是无形体的，纯粹内在的敬拜。
- start: 1842.859985352
  end: 1846.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This impacts how they view everything else.
  zh: 这影响了他们如何看待其他一切。
- start: 1846.260009766
  end: 1849.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Spurgeon, for instance, argues strongly against the Eucharist.
  zh: 例如，司布真强烈反对圣餐。
- start: 1849.459960938
  end: 1853.33996582
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: As I alluded to earlier, this is at the heart of why he's preaching this.
  zh: 正如我之前暗示的，这是他传讲这个的核心原因。
- start: 1853.33996582
  end: 1859.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's really upset about this idea that some Anglicans want to restore a higher vision of what the Eucharist is.
  zh: 他对一些圣公会信徒想要恢复对圣餐更高的理解这一想法感到非常不安。
- start: 1859.979980469
  end: 1872.66003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: To begin with the greatest monstrosity of this kind in the present day, the real and corporal presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in what is superstitiously called the Blessed Sacrament.
  zh: 首先从当今这种最大的怪诞开始，即在迷信地被称为圣体圣事中主耶稣基督的真实和肉体的临在。
- start: 1872.66003418
  end: 1876.439941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Ultimately, Spurgeon is going to make a couple of arguments against the Eucharist.
  zh: 最终，司布真将提出几个反对圣餐的论点。
- start: 1876.439941406
  end: 1880.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He just thinks it's ridiculous to think that Christ could give us his body and blood to eat and drink.
  zh: 他只是认为基督能给我们他的身体和血来吃喝这种想法是荒谬的。
- start: 1880.520019531
  end: 1886.800048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fairness, that was the same reaction the Jews had in John 6. This sounds too fantastical to be true.
  zh: 公平地说，这与约翰福音第6章中犹太人的反应相同。这听起来太不可思议了，不可能是真的。
- start: 1886.800048828
  end: 1889.439941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's not an unexpected reaction.
  zh: 这不是一个意外的反应。
- start: 1889.979980469
  end: 1895.359985352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But he then argues that actually this can't be true, because if it was true, it would just be cannibalism.
  zh: 但他接着论证说这实际上不可能是真的，因为如果是真的，那就只是食人主义。
- start: 1895.359985352
  end: 1912.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: If Jesus Christ's body be really received into your mouth, broken with your teeth, and made to enter into your stomach, then in the first place you are guilty of a gross act of cannibalism, and nothing better, inasmuch as you eat human flesh.
  zh: 如果耶稣基督的身体真的被接入你的口中，被你的牙齿咬碎，进入你的胃，那么首先你就犯了严重的食人行为，没有比这更好的了，因为你吃了人肉。
- start: 1912.260009766
  end: 1928.640014648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Ironically, St. Augustine, when he's talking about what John 6.63 means, he points out that a fleshly understanding of Jesus' words, the kind that he prohibits us from taking, could be that to eat his flesh and drink his blood, we have to cut his flesh into pieces like a carcass.
  zh: 讽刺的是，圣奥古斯丁在谈到约翰福音6:63的含义时指出，对耶稣话语的肉体理解，就是他禁止我们采取的那种理解，可能是为了吃他的肉和喝他的血，我们必须像对待尸体一样将他的肉切成碎片。
- start: 1928.640014648
  end: 1941.680053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, to imagine that the only way we could receive Christ's body and blood, truly, is through cannibalism in this way, of just, like, ripping him up, shows one not being quickened by the Spirit in their understanding.
  zh: 换句话说，想象我们接受基督的身体和血的唯一方式，真的是通过这种食人主义的方式，就像把他撕碎，这表明一个人在理解上没有被圣灵点活。
- start: 1941.680053711
  end: 1943.280029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is Augustine's argument.
  zh: 这是奥古斯丁的论点。
- start: 1943.280029297
  end: 1946.800048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That Spurgeon's interpretation is fleshly.
  zh: 司布真的解释是属肉体的。
- start: 1946.800048828
  end: 1952.699951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, obviously, he's not directly responding to Spurgeon, because Augustine's alive in the 300s.
  zh: 现在，显然，他并不是直接回应司布真，因为奥古斯丁活在4世纪。
- start: 1952.699951172
  end: 1979.619995117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Spurgeon is 1600 years later, repeating the same errors that Augustine warns against of misinterpreting John 6.63. But Spurgeon's second argument, or really third if you count the just laughing at it as an argument, so you've got scoffing at it, you've got, oh no, this would be cannibalism, and then third, you have him articulating explicitly the view that grace can't work through the body, which is a shockingly Gnostic misunderstanding of grace.
  zh: 司布真在1600年后，重复了奥古斯丁警告过的误解约翰福音6:63的同样错误。但司布真的第二个论点，或者如果你把嘲笑也算作一个论点的话，那就是第三个论点，所以你有嘲笑它，你有，哦不，这将是食人主义，然后第三，你有他明确表达的观点，即恩典不能通过身体工作，这是对恩典令人震惊的诺斯底式误解。
- start: 1979.619995117
  end: 1990.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: And in the next place, you cannot derive any virtue therefrom, for Jesus Christ tells you at once, it is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing.
  zh: 接下来，你不能从中获得任何美德，因为耶稣基督立即告诉你，叫人活着的乃是灵，肉体是无益的。
- start: 1990.280029297
  end: 2005.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: If you did actually eat the very body of Christ, it would affect your digestive and secretive organs, and through them your flesh, just as other bread, or, if you like it better, other flesh would do.
  zh: 如果你真的吃了基督的身体，它会影响你的消化器官和分泌器官，通过它们影响你的肉体，就像其他面包，或者如果你更喜欢的话，其他肉类会做的那样。
- start: 2005.680053711
  end: 2008.739990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: But how could this affect your heart and soul?
  zh: 但这怎么能影响你的心灵和灵魂呢？
- start: 2009.239990234
  end: 2013.420043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: Does grace operate through the stomach and save us through our bowels?
  zh: 恩典是通过胃部运作并通过我们的肠道拯救我们吗？
- start: 2014.239990234
  end: 2016.920043945
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: Prove this, and you will make converts of us.
  zh: 证明这一点，你就会使我们皈依。
- start: 2016.920043945
  end: 2022.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Great, I would love to prove that and hopefully make converts of anyone buying into this Gnostic view.
  zh: 很好，我很乐意证明这一点，并希望能使任何接受这种诺斯底观点的人皈依。
- start: 2022.199951172
  end: 2025.180053711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To begin with, look at the manna in the desert.
  zh: 首先，看看旷野中的吗哪。
- start: 2025.180053711
  end: 2035.66003418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In John 6, Jesus compares the Eucharist to the manna, and in 1 Corinthians 10, St. Paul describes it as our spiritual, sometimes it's translated supernatural, but the word there is literally spiritual food.
  zh: 在约翰福音第6章，耶稣将圣餐比作吗哪，而在哥林多前书第10章，圣保罗将其描述为我们的属灵食物，有时被翻译为超自然的，但那里的词字面意思就是属灵的食物。
- start: 2035.66003418
  end: 2043.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So spiritual food, according to St. Paul, includes the manna, which was eaten at a bodily level.
  zh: 所以根据圣保罗的说法，属灵的食物包括吗哪，而吗哪是在身体层面上被吃的。
- start: 2043.280029297
  end: 2058.639892578
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: St. Gregory of Nyssa, another one of the early Christians, also writing in the 300s, says that since the human being is a twofold creature compounded of soul and body, St. C.S. Lewis uses the example of man being an amphibian, you know, it's this union of body and soul.
  zh: 尼撒的圣格里高利，另一位早期基督徒，也是在4世纪写作的，他说因为人是由灵魂和身体组成的二重生物，C.S.路易斯用人是两栖动物的例子来说明，你知道，这是身体和灵魂的结合。
- start: 2058.639892578
  end: 2062.919921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're not just your body, you're not just your soul, you're the union of those two things.
  zh: 你不仅仅是你的身体，也不仅仅是你的灵魂，你是这两者的结合。
- start: 2062.919921875
  end: 2065.379882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're a twofold creature, in Gregory's words.
  zh: 用格里高利的话说，你是一个二重生物。
- start: 2065.580078125
  end: 2071.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says, Therefore it is necessary that the saved should lay hold of the author of the new life through both their component parts.
  zh: 他说，因此，得救的人有必要通过他们的两个组成部分来把握新生命的创造者。
- start: 2071.560058594
  end: 2079.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That Christ, in other words, does not just come into the world to save your soul, but to save your body as well, because he wants to save all of you.
  zh: 换句话说，基督来到世上不仅是为了拯救你的灵魂，也是为了拯救你的身体，因为他想拯救你的全部。
- start: 2079.459960938
  end: 2081.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is why the Incarnation is necessary.
  zh: 这就是为什么道成肉身是必要的。
- start: 2081.760009766
  end: 2089.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The early Christians were very fond of saying that which is not assumed is not redeemed.
  zh: 早期基督徒非常喜欢说，没有被承担的就没有被救赎。
- start: 2089.320068359
  end: 2094.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That Christ doesn't become an animal, and so we don't believe that animals receive divine life.
  zh: 基督并没有成为动物，所以我们不相信动物接受神圣生命。
- start: 2094.340087891
  end: 2095.320068359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Christ does become a man.
  zh: 基督确实成为了人。
- start: 2095.320068359
  end: 2098.379882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is why it matters that he's fully God and fully man.
  zh: 这就是为什么他完全是神又完全是人这一点很重要。
- start: 2098.379882812
  end: 2105.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That he has a human body and a human soul, and even a human will, contrary to modern Protestants like William Lane Craig.
  zh: 他有人的身体和人的灵魂，甚至有人的意志，这与威廉·莱恩·克雷格等现代新教徒的观点相反。
- start: 2105.419921875
  end: 2112.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He needs to be fully human if he's going to save us in the fullness of our humanity.
  zh: 如果他要在我们人性的完全中拯救我们，他就需要完全是人。
- start: 2112.179931641
  end: 2117.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, Gregory of Nyssa is saying here, okay, so he wants to save us both body and soul.
  zh: 好吧，尼撒的格里高利在这里说，好的，所以他想要拯救我们的身体和灵魂。
- start: 2117.459960938
  end: 2118.959960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How does he save us at the level of the soul?
  zh: 他如何在灵魂层面上拯救我们？
- start: 2118.959960938
  end: 2119.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Very clearly.
  zh: 非常清楚。
- start: 2120.699951172
  end: 2127.580078125
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The soul being fused into him through faith, derived from that, the means and occasions of salvation.
  zh: 灵魂通过信心与他融合，由此产生救恩的方式和机会。
- start: 2127.580078125
  end: 2140.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That if we were merely souls and not bodies, if we were like angels, disembodied creatures, if we were just spirit beings having a bodily experience, then faith alone could save you.
  zh: 如果我们只是灵魂而没有身体，如果我们像天使一样是无形体的生物，如果我们只是正在经历身体体验的灵性存在，那么单凭信心就可以拯救你。
- start: 2141.560058594
  end: 2146.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it can't, because that would only save your soul and not your body.
  zh: 但它不能，因为那只会拯救你的灵魂而不是你的身体。
- start: 2146.860107422
  end: 2151.679931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so he says, the body comes into fellowship and blending with the author of our salvation in another way.
  zh: 所以他说，身体以另一种方式与我们救恩的创造者相交融合。
- start: 2151.679931641
  end: 2153.120117188
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, what way is that, you might ask?
  zh: 那么，你可能会问，那是什么方式呢？
- start: 2153.120117188
  end: 2160.080078125
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, in no other way can anything enter within the body, but by being transfused through the vitals by eating and drinking.
  zh: 嗯，没有其他方式可以让任何东西进入身体，只能通过吃喝被输送到内脏。
- start: 2160.840087891
  end: 2170.439941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So now the Eucharist suddenly makes more sense, because the soul receives things through faith and contemplation.
  zh: 所以现在圣餐突然变得更有意义了，因为灵魂通过信心和默想接受事物。
- start: 2170.439941406
  end: 2173.739990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The body receives things by eating them and drinking them.
  zh: 身体通过吃喝来接受事物。
- start: 2173.739990234
  end: 2177.959960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so Jesus comes to us in both ways.
  zh: 所以耶稣以这两种方式来到我们中间。
- start: 2179.360107422
  end: 2200.679931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Gregory concludes, since that body, which was the receptacle of the deity, received this grace of immortality, and since it has been shown that in no other way was it possible for our body to become immortal, but by participating in incorruption through its fellowship with that immortal body, therefore, he's going to say in a much longer passage I'm not going to quote all of, we need the Eucharist.
  zh: 格里高利总结道，既然那个作为神性容器的身体接受了这种不朽的恩典，并且已经表明我们的身体不可能以其他方式成为不朽的，只能通过与那不朽的身体相交而参与不朽，因此，他将在一个更长的段落中说（我不会全部引用），我们需要圣餐。
- start: 2201.439941406
  end: 2202.800048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's early Christianity.
  zh: 这就是早期基督教。
- start: 2202.800048828
  end: 2204.879882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now notice here, this isn't paganism.
  zh: 现在注意，这不是异教。
- start: 2204.879882812
  end: 2207.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This isn't like, oh, the Eucharist came in from pagan ideas.
  zh: 这不像是，哦，圣餐是从异教思想中引入的。
- start: 2207.780029297
  end: 2219.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No! The pagans were the ones who were arguing for this Gnostic idea of disembodied salvation, and the Christians, looking at Jesus and how he heals body and soul, were saying that's not it.
  zh: 不！异教徒才是那些主张这种诺斯底式的无形体救赎观念的人，而基督徒看着耶稣如何医治身体和灵魂，说那不是真理。
- start: 2220.179931641
  end: 2233.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now the third thing I'd point out here is that even though Spurgeon doesn't believe that the body has this role to play in grace, he does view eating as being really important for sin.
  zh: 现在我要指出的第三点是，尽管司布真不相信身体在恩典中扮演这种角色，但他确实认为吃对罪来说非常重要。
- start: 2233.459960938
  end: 2235.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is a fascinating double standard.
  zh: 这是一个有趣的双重标准。
- start: 2235.959960938
  end: 2240.620117188
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Here he is talking about Adam and Eve.
  zh: 这里他在谈论亚当和夏娃。
- start: 2266.560058594
  end: 2266.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: Adam in the garden wanted no salvation.
  zh: 伊甸园中的亚当不需要救赎。
- start: 2266.560058594
  end: 2266.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: He was perfect, pure, clean, holy, and acceptable.
  zh: 他是完美的、纯洁的、清洁的、圣洁的，并且是可接受的。
- start: 2266.560058594
  end: 2266.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: Before God, he was our representative.
  zh: 在神面前，他是我们的代表。
- start: 2266.560058594
  end: 2266.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: He stood as the representative for all the race, and when he touched the forbidden fruit, and ate of the tree of which God had said, you shall not eat thereof, or you shall surely die.
  zh: 他作为全人类的代表站立，当他触摸了禁果，吃了神说过不可吃的树上的果子，神说你们不可吃，否则必定死。
- start: 2266.560058594
  end: 2266.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: When he so transgressed against God, he needed a savior, and we, his offspring through his sin, are born into this world, each of us needing a savior.
  zh: 当他如此违背神时，他需要一位救主，而我们，作为他因罪而生的后代，生在这个世界上，每个人都需要一位救主。
- start: 2266.560058594
  end: 2277.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I find that double standard bizarre and fascinating, because he's completely comfortable with the idea that the literal way original sin happens is that there is bodily eating and drinking.
  zh: 我发现这种双重标准既奇怪又有趣，因为他完全接受原罪发生的字面方式是通过身体的吃喝。
- start: 2277.939941406
  end: 2280.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He doesn't take that part metaphorically.
  zh: 他并没有把那部分比喻化。
- start: 2280.060058594
  end: 2286.600097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's like, okay, they literally ate and drank, and therefore sin entered the world, and now we need a savior.
  zh: 他好像在说，好吧，他们确实吃喝了，因此罪进入了世界，现在我们需要一位救主。
- start: 2286.939941406
  end: 2298.399902344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And yet when that savior comes, he doesn't think that the remedy for Adam's sin might also involve eating and drinking in the way the sin does.
  zh: 然而当救主来临时，他却不认为对亚当之罪的补救也可能像罪一样涉及吃喝。
- start: 2298.800048828
  end: 2300.179931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, think about that.
  zh: 我是说，想想看。
- start: 2300.179931641
  end: 2310.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So bad things can happen spiritually to you through eating, but good things can't? This is part of a broader thing, and once you kind of hear it, hopefully you'll be able to identify it.
  zh: 所以坏事可以通过吃在灵性上发生在你身上，但好事不能？这是一个更广泛问题的一部分，一旦你听到它，希望你能识别出来。
- start: 2310.100097656
  end: 2318.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Maybe in your own life, or if you're from a Protestant background, or you're currently Protestant, look around and look at where this double standard comes up.
  zh: 也许在你自己的生活中，或者如果你来自新教背景，或者你目前是新教徒，环顾四周，看看这种双重标准在哪里出现。
- start: 2318.219970703
  end: 2328.419921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's this idea that there can be spiritually evil things that are physical, like a Ouija board, but there can't be spiritually good things that are physical, like holy water.
  zh: 有一种观念认为，可以有物质的灵性邪恶之物，比如占卜板，但不能有物质的灵性善物，比如圣水。
- start: 2328.419921875
  end: 2336.179931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At best, they're only good if they remind us of good things, but the evil things aren't only evil if they remind us of bad things.
  zh: 在最好的情况下，它们只有在提醒我们好事时才是好的，但邪恶的东西不仅仅是在提醒我们坏事时才是邪恶的。
- start: 2337.080078125
  end: 2356.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The spiritually evil things, Ouija boards, tarot cards, the like, they can actually be conduits of wickedness, but there's this idea that for some reason, the body and physical things cannot be conduits of grace, and yet that is absolutely how the early Christians understood them, and absolutely how the Bible presents them.
  zh: 那些灵性邪恶的东西，占卜板、塔罗牌之类的，它们实际上可以成为邪恶的导管，但有一种观念认为，出于某种原因，身体和物质事物不能成为恩典的导管，然而这恰恰是早期基督徒理解它们的方式，也绝对是圣经呈现它们的方式。
- start: 2356.5
  end: 2358.659912109
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there's much more that could be said about the Eucharist.
  zh: 关于圣餐还有很多可以说的。
- start: 2358.659912109
  end: 2371.439941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I actually take Spurgeon on pretty directly in that book, The Eucharist is Really Jesus, but I want to turn to other parts of his sermon that I don't cover in that book, namely things like apostolic succession.
  zh: 我实际上在那本书《圣餐真的是耶稣》中相当直接地批评了司布真，但我想转向他讲道中我在那本书中没有涉及的其他部分，即使徒继承之类的事情。
- start: 2371.439941406
  end: 2374.739990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, this is a really critical one in the fight against Gnosticism.
  zh: 现在，这在反对诺斯底主义的斗争中是一个真正关键的问题。
- start: 2374.739990234
  end: 2378.419921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm going back to Roger Olson here, again, who is a Baptist.
  zh: 我再次回到罗杰·奥尔森这里，他是一位浸信会信徒。
- start: 2378.5
  end: 2389.360107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He points out that in Irenaeus of Lyons' Critique of Gnosticism, one of the important points that he makes is that the Gnostics were the ones who broke the unity of the Church, they were the schismatics.
  zh: 他指出，在里昂的爱任纽对诺斯底主义的批评中，他提出的一个重要观点是，诺斯底主义者是那些打破教会统一的人，他们是分裂主义者。
- start: 2389.620117188
  end: 2397.080078125
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Irenaeus, he says, highly valued the Church's visible unity that consisted in the fellowship of the bishops appointed by the apostles.
  zh: 他说，爱任纽高度重视教会的可见统一，这种统一体现在使徒任命的主教们的团契中。
- start: 2397.5
  end: 2401.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Gnostics stood outside of that and were parasites on it.
  zh: 诺斯底主义者站在这个团契之外，是它的寄生虫。
- start: 2401.379882812
  end: 2412.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you're not familiar, in 180, in Against Heresies, St. Irenaeus, the guy who gives us Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as the four Gospels, he's arguing against mostly the Gnostic heresy.
  zh: 如果你不熟悉，在180年的《驳异端》中，圣爱任纽，就是给我们马太、马可、路加和约翰四福音的那位，他主要是在反驳诺斯底异端。
- start: 2412.340087891
  end: 2415.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's the chief set of heresies in Against Heresies.
  zh: 这是《驳异端》中主要的一组异端。
- start: 2415.760009766
  end: 2423.919921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He writes this encyclopedic, in both good and bad ways, it's very boring sometimes, encyclopedic description of what it is these heretics believe, and then he refutes them.
  zh: 他写了这个百科全书式的，既有好的方面也有不好的方面，有时候非常乏味，百科全书式地描述了这些异端相信什么，然后他驳斥了他们。
- start: 2423.919921875
  end: 2430.479980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And one of the ways he refutes them, one of the prominent ways, is because they don't have apostolic succession.
  zh: 他驳斥他们的方式之一，一个突出的方式，是因为他们没有使徒继承。
- start: 2430.479980469
  end: 2450.899902344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Irenaeus points out in Book 3 that it is within the power of anyone in every church to go and trace the lineage from the time of the apostles down to his own day, to trace what he calls the succession of these men, meaning the bishops, to our own time, those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these, meaning the Gnostics, rave about.
  zh: 爱任纽在第三卷中指出，每个教会的任何人都有能力追溯从使徒时代到他自己那个时代的谱系，追溯他所称的这些人（即主教们）的继承，直到我们自己的时代，这些人既没有教导也不知道任何像这些（指诺斯底主义者）所狂热宣扬的东西。
- start: 2450.899902344
  end: 2459.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, one of the ways you can disprove Gnosticism is they've reinterpreted Christianity in a way that earlier Christians didn't believe.
  zh: 换句话说，你可以驳斥诺斯底主义的一种方法是，他们以早期基督徒不相信的方式重新解释了基督教。
- start: 2459.060058594
  end: 2460.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How do we know that?
  zh: 我们怎么知道的？
- start: 2460.060058594
  end: 2461.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Partly through apostolic succession.
  zh: 部分通过使徒继承。
- start: 2461.5
  end: 2469.120117188
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We have this lineage of bishops going back to the apostles, and we can show that this just is not true.
  zh: 我们有这个可以追溯到使徒的主教谱系，我们可以证明这根本不是真的。
- start: 2469.199951172
  end: 2471.679931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Spurgeon hates this argument.
  zh: 司布真讨厌这个论点。
- start: 2472.199951172
  end: 2475.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Spurgeon thinks this argument is absolutely ridiculous.
  zh: 司布真认为这个论点完全荒谬。
- start: 2475.219970703
  end: 2477.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He comes out swinging against it.
  zh: 他猛烈抨击它。
- start: 2477.520019531
  end: 2480.179931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Here he is attacking apostolic succession.
  zh: 这里他正在攻击使徒继承。
- start: 2480.360107422
  end: 2483.620117188
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: Hear ye this word, the flesh profiteth nothing.
  zh: 听这句话，肉体是无益的。
- start: 2484.399902344
  end: 2496.620117188
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: The mere fleshly connection between bishop and bishop, established by successive layings on of hands and anointings, is utterly valueless.
  zh: 主教与主教之间仅仅通过连续的按手和膏抹建立的肉体联系，是完全没有价值的。
- start: 2496.719970703
  end: 2502.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Earlier in the same sermon, he suggests that the people who believe in apostolic succession belong in bedlam, like the mental institution.
  zh: 在同一篇讲道的早些时候，他暗示相信使徒继承的人应该被关在疯人院里，就像精神病院一样。
- start: 2503.060058594
  end: 2505.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so he, I mean, when I say he hates it, he really hates it.
  zh: 所以他，我是说，当我说他讨厌它时，他真的非常讨厌它。
- start: 2505.459960938
  end: 2508.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because it means that he's not a true minister.
  zh: 因为这意味着他不是一个真正的牧师。
- start: 2508.5
  end: 2512.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He doesn't have this authority, this calling from God.
  zh: 他没有这种权威，这种来自神的呼召。
- start: 2512.040039062
  end: 2513.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He has not been called.
  zh: 他没有被呼召。
- start: 2513.100097656
  end: 2514.580078125
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How can they preach unless they are sent?
  zh: 若没有奉差遣，怎能传道呢？
- start: 2514.580078125
  end: 2516.919921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: St. Paul says in Romans 10. He hasn't been sent.
  zh: 圣保罗在罗马书第10章说。他没有被差遣。
- start: 2516.919921875
  end: 2517.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who sent him?
  zh: 谁差遣他的？
- start: 2517.560058594
  end: 2518.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He sent himself.
  zh: 他自己差遣自己。
- start: 2519.100097656
  end: 2520.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He founds his own church.
  zh: 他创立了自己的教会。
- start: 2520.340087891
  end: 2522.439941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He literally does.
  zh: 他确实这样做了。
- start: 2522.800048828
  end: 2531.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And yet, so contrast this idea that apostolic succession is fleshly with the way the laying on of hands is presented in scripture.
  zh: 然而，将使徒继承是肉体的这种观念与圣经中呈现的按手方式进行对比。
- start: 2531.5
  end: 2535.840087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is not treated in scripture as a mere fleshly outward observance.
  zh: 在圣经中，它并不被视为仅仅是肉体的外在仪式。
- start: 2535.840087891
  end: 2542.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In Hebrews chapter 6, we're told, let us leave the elementary doctrines of Christ and go on to maturity.
  zh: 在希伯来书第6章，我们被告知，让我们离开基督道理的开端，竭力进到完全的地步。
- start: 2542.399902344
  end: 2544.719970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what are the mature doctrines?
  zh: 那么什么是成熟的教义呢？
- start: 2544.919921875
  end: 2549.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Instructions about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
  zh: 关于洗礼、按手、死人复活和永远审判的教训。
- start: 2549.760009766
  end: 2556.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you have to have the basic foundation, things like justification, the repentance from dead works, and faith towards God.
  zh: 所以你必须有基本的基础，比如称义、悔改离开死行、信靠神。
- start: 2556.340087891
  end: 2562.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then you're ready to get the more sophisticated understanding of what Christianity is all about.
  zh: 然后你就准备好获得对基督教本质更深入的理解。
- start: 2562.199951172
  end: 2570.020019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And laying on of hands is on that very short list of Christian doctrines along with things like the resurrection of the dead and the last judgment.
  zh: 而按手礼就在那个非常简短的基督教教义清单上，与死人复活和最后审判等事情并列。
- start: 2570.479980469
  end: 2576.899902344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, laying on of hands isn't just some ceremonial frivolity in the biblical vision.
  zh: 所以，在圣经的视野中，按手礼并不仅仅是某种仪式性的轻浮行为。
- start: 2576.899902344
  end: 2578.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Laying on of hands is really important.
  zh: 按手礼真的很重要。
- start: 2578.219970703
  end: 2583.419921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I should point out that the phrase laying on of hands is used in three different ways in the New Testament.
  zh: 现在，我应该指出，在新约中「按手」这个短语有三种不同的用法。
- start: 2583.419921875
  end: 2587.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One way, not relevant to us, is arrest.
  zh: 一种与我们无关的用法是逮捕。
- start: 2587.040039062
  end: 2589.679931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, they laid hands on the apostles and brought them to jail.
  zh: 你知道，他们抓住使徒，把他们关进监狱。
- start: 2589.679931641
  end: 2593.139892578
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, literally, that's obviously not what Hebrews 6 is talking about.
  zh: 我的意思是，字面上，这显然不是希伯来书第6章所说的。
- start: 2593.139892578
  end: 2595.239990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other two ways are sacramental.
  zh: 其他两种方式是圣事性的。
- start: 2595.239990234
  end: 2600.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The laying on of hands is used to describe the gift of holy orders, which is going to be the relevant part for apostolic succession.
  zh: 按手礼用来描述圣职的恩赐，这将是与使徒继承相关的部分。
- start: 2600.979980469
  end: 2603.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it's also used for the gift of confirmation.
  zh: 它也用于坚振圣事的恩赐。
- start: 2603.939941406
  end: 2613.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, this matters because there is very clearly in the New Testament a belief that spiritual authority is imparted through the physical act of the laying on of hands.
  zh: 这很重要，因为在新约中很明确地存在一种信念，即属灵权柄是通过按手这一物理行为传递的。
- start: 2613.040039062
  end: 2616.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We get this, for instance, in Acts chapter 8, about the gift of confirmation.
  zh: 例如，我们在使徒行传第8章中看到了关于坚振圣事恩赐的记载。
- start: 2616.860107422
  end: 2624.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Simon, the magician, saw, quote, that the spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands.
  zh: 魔术师西门看见「圣灵是通过使徒按手赐下的」。
- start: 2625.139892578
  end: 2632.679931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's Acts 8, 18. And then he asked for that power also, that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 这是使徒行传8:18。然后他也要求得到这种能力，说「我手按着谁，谁就可以受圣灵」。
- start: 2632.679931641
  end: 2634.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And he's condemned for this.
  zh: 他因此受到谴责。
- start: 2634.300048828
  end: 2636.659912109
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He doesn't have that authority, that power.
  zh: 他没有那种权柄，那种能力。
- start: 2636.659912109
  end: 2638.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The apostles clearly do.
  zh: 使徒们显然有。
- start: 2638.040039062
  end: 2639.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They don't say, oh, you've misunderstood.
  zh: 他们没有说，哦，你误解了。
- start: 2639.780029297
  end: 2641.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is a mere external thing.
  zh: 这只是一个外在的事情。
- start: 2641.340087891
  end: 2646.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're reminding them by laying hands of them that the Holy Spirit exists somehow.
  zh: 我们通过给他们按手来提醒他们圣灵以某种方式存在。
- start: 2646.179931641
  end: 2650.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, clearly, the laying on of hands is imparting a spiritual authority here.
  zh: 现在，很明显，按手礼在这里传递了一种属灵权柄。
- start: 2650.100097656
  end: 2652.280029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That spiritual authority this time is confirmation.
  zh: 这次的属灵权柄是坚振圣事。
- start: 2652.280029297
  end: 2656.320068359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But like I say, the other way you see it used is in ordination.
  zh: 但正如我所说，你看到它被使用的另一种方式是在授职礼中。
- start: 2656.879882812
  end: 2668.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, for instance, St. Paul reminds Timothy in 2 Timothy 1, verse 6-7, Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.
  zh: 例如，圣保罗在提摩太后书1章6-7节提醒提摩太说：「为此我提醒你，使你将神藉我按手所给你的恩赐再如火挑旺起来。」
- start: 2668.939941406
  end: 2671.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How does he get the gift of God within him?
  zh: 他是如何得到神在他里面的恩赐的？
- start: 2671.199951172
  end: 2674.620117188
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Through the laying on of Paul's hands.
  zh: 通过保罗的按手。
- start: 2675.020019531
  end: 2679.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power and love and self-control.
  zh: 因为神赐给我们，不是胆怯的心，乃是刚强、仁爱、谨守的心。
- start: 2679.260009766
  end: 2687.800048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the idea that the laying on of hands is just a fleshly observance could not be more contrary to the way the New Testament talks about.
  zh: 所以，认为按手礼只是一种肉体的仪式的想法，与新约谈论它的方式完全相反。
- start: 2688.199951172
  end: 2694.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, let's pivot now to just talk more broadly about liturgical beauty in Christian worship.
  zh: 好的，现在让我们转向更广泛地讨论基督教崇拜中的礼仪之美。
- start: 2694.780029297
  end: 2701.879882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because Spurgeon's view, because it's all about just internal stuff that matters, he's going to reject liturgical beauty as being important.
  zh: 因为司布真的观点认为只有内在的东西才重要，所以他会拒绝礼仪之美的重要性。
- start: 2701.879882812
  end: 2707.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He actually is even going to reject things like eloquence being important, which is kind of funny given how eloquent of a preacher he is.
  zh: 他甚至会拒绝口才的重要性，这有点滑稽，因为他是一个多么有口才的传教士。
- start: 2707.760009766
  end: 2712.379882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But here he comes out swinging against liturgical beauty, thinking it's just worthless.
  zh: 但在这里他猛烈抨击礼仪之美，认为它毫无价值。
- start: 2712.379882812
  end: 2725.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: We are told nowadays that the pompous array of ministering priests, the beauty of symbology, the painting of windows, the smoke of incense, and so on, tend to draw people into the place of worship.
  zh: 我们现在被告知，神职人员的华丽阵容、象征符号的美、彩绘玻璃窗、香烟等等，都倾向于吸引人们进入敬拜场所。
- start: 2725.780029297
  end: 2729.959960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: And that when there, they aid in elevating their minds.
  zh: 而且当人们在那里时，这些东西有助于提升他们的思想。
- start: 2730.600097656
  end: 2732.719970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: What sayeth scripture about it all?
  zh: 圣经对这一切怎么说？
- start: 2732.780029297
  end: 2741.600097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: This thing was tried among the Jews, and Christ's remark when he comes to sum up the long trial is, it is the spirit that quickeneth.
  zh: 这在犹太人中已经尝试过了，而当基督总结这长期的试验时，他的评论是，叫人活着的乃是灵。
- start: 2741.639892578
  end: 2744.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: The flesh profiteth nothing.
  zh: 肉体是无益的。
- start: 2744.199951172
  end: 2745.540039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Two things I should point out here.
  zh: 我在这里应该指出两点。
- start: 2745.540039062
  end: 2753.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Number one, this constant pitting Christianity against Judaism, again, sounds much more like Gnosticism than it does like New Testament Christianity.
  zh: 第一，这种不断将基督教与犹太教对立的做法，再次听起来更像是诺斯底主义，而不是新约基督教。
- start: 2754.020019531
  end: 2762.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Gnostics were convinced the Old Testament God was evil, or, you know, the world of matter, because it's so bodily in the Old Testament.
  zh: 诺斯底主义者确信旧约的神是邪恶的，或者说，你知道，物质世界是邪恶的，因为在旧约中它是如此的身体化。
- start: 2763.199951172
  end: 2766.540039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But notice here, this is not just a trial among the Jews.
  zh: 但请注意，这不仅仅是犹太人中的一次尝试。
- start: 2766.919921875
  end: 2770.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God explicitly tells the Jews to have worship in this way.
  zh: 神明确告诉犹太人要以这种方式敬拜。
- start: 2770.340087891
  end: 2775.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, for instance, in Exodus 30, they're told to make an altar to burn incense upon.
  zh: 例如，在出埃及记30章，他们被告知要制作一个燃香的祭坛。
- start: 2775.219970703
  end: 2778.840087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It isn't like they just came up with incense because they wanted a pompous ceremony.
  zh: 这不是他们因为想要一个浮夸的仪式就想出了焚香。
- start: 2779.080078125
  end: 2780.600097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God instructs them to do that.
  zh: 神指示他们这样做。
- start: 2780.600097656
  end: 2782.379882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We'll talk about why in a minute.
  zh: 我们稍后会讨论为什么。
- start: 2782.520019531
  end: 2784.459960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But heavenly worship is like this as well.
  zh: 但天上的敬拜也是如此。
- start: 2784.459960938
  end: 2790.739990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It isn't just like this is some man-made error, and now Christianity comes along, and we're remedied of it.
  zh: 这不仅仅是某种人为的错误，现在基督教来了，我们就纠正了它。
- start: 2790.879882812
  end: 2797.760009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: St. John, in the book of Revelation, in Revelation chapter 8, describes heavenly worship in these words.
  zh: 圣约翰在启示录中，在启示录第8章，用这些话描述天上的敬拜。
- start: 2812.340087891
  end: 2812.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer.
  zh: 另有一位天使拿着金香炉来，站在祭坛旁边。
- start: 2812.340087891
  end: 2812.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne.
  zh: 有许多香赐给他，要和众圣徒的祈祷一同献在宝座前的金坛上。
- start: 2812.340087891
  end: 2812.340087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
  zh: 那香的烟和众圣徒的祈祷从天使的手中一同升到神面前。
- start: 2812.340087891
  end: 2816.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is what biblical worship looks like in both the Old and the New Testament.
  zh: 这就是圣经中旧约和新约中敬拜的样子。
- start: 2817.320068359
  end: 2830.020019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it is bizarre that he responds based just on one verse, John 6, 63, which he does not understand, to act as if all this external stuff is completely worthless.
  zh: 所以，他仅仅基于约翰福音6:63这一节经文（而且他并不理解）就做出反应，好像所有这些外在的东西完全没有价值，这是很奇怪的。
- start: 2830.719970703
  end: 2835.419921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I want to, again, I don't want to paint all Protestants with a broad brush.
  zh: 现在，我再次强调，我不想用一个宽泛的笔触来描绘所有的新教徒。
- start: 2835.419921875
  end: 2840.820068359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so I want to actually highlight another Protestant who I think gets this really well.
  zh: 所以我实际上想强调另一位我认为很好地理解这一点的新教徒。
- start: 2841.020019531
  end: 2844.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So this is from Doug Wilson's church up in Moscow, Idaho.
  zh: 这是来自爱达荷州莫斯科市道格·威尔逊的教会。
- start: 2844.399902344
  end: 2846.679931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it's a guy by the name of Ben Zorns.
  zh: 是一个名叫本·佐恩斯的人。
- start: 2846.699951172
  end: 2847.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I don't know much about him.
  zh: 我对他不太了解。
- start: 2847.780029297
  end: 2850.439941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I probably, there are plenty of areas we disagree on theology.
  zh: 我可能在神学上有很多领域与他意见不同。
- start: 2850.439941406
  end: 2877.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I thought he did a fantastic job of laying out the case that if we understand that we are both soul and body, then we understand why things like the externals in religion matter, and why things like bodily motions, like kneeling, which we'll talk about in another episode, the role of the body in worship is something that he's trying to bring back in view for Protestants who may be oblivious to it, or who think that the body and the external trappings are totally irrelevant.
  zh: 但我认为他在阐述这个观点时做得非常出色，即如果我们理解我们既有灵魂又有身体，那么我们就会理解为什么宗教中的外在事物很重要，以及为什么像跪拜这样的身体动作（我们将在另一集中讨论）很重要，身体在敬拜中的角色是他试图让那些可能忽视它或认为身体和外在装饰完全无关的新教徒重新关注的东西。
- start: 2877.100097656
  end: 2881.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: And the gospel doesn't liberate your soul from the prison of the body.
  zh: 福音并不是将你的灵魂从身体的监狱中解放出来。
- start: 2881.040039062
  end: 2884.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: Rather, the gospel brings you truly to life.
  zh: 相反，福音真正使你获得生命。
- start: 2884.860107422
  end: 2891.719970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: The word we preach is life to the body, health to the soul, vitality to the spirit.
  zh: 我们所传的道是身体的生命，灵魂的健康，精神的活力。
- start: 2891.879882812
  end: 2896.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: This is why we shouldn't think of our worship as an attempt to escape the body.
  zh: 这就是为什么我们不应该把我们的敬拜看作是试图逃离身体。
- start: 2897.659912109
  end: 2905.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: Rather, we bring our whole self, body, soul, and spirit, risen by Christ's grace, to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice.
  zh: 相反，我们带着我们的全人，身体、灵魂和精神，因基督的恩典而复活，将自己献上，当作活祭。
- start: 2905.899902344
  end: 2909.879882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: And so, we adopt various postures throughout our service.
  zh: 因此，我们在整个崇拜过程中采取各种姿势。
- start: 2909.879882812
  end: 2913.540039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: We stand in attention to hear God call us to worship.
  zh: 我们站立聆听神呼召我们敬拜。
- start: 2913.540039062
  end: 2916.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: Our voices resound in songs and prayers.
  zh: 我们的声音在歌唱和祷告中回响。
- start: 2916.5
  end: 2919.080078125
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: We kneel in hope-filled contrition.
  zh: 我们怀着充满希望的悔改跪下。
- start: 2919.080078125
  end: 2921.659912109
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: We stand again to hear God's word.
  zh: 我们再次站起来聆听神的话语。
- start: 2921.699951172
  end: 2925.699951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: Our ears are opened by the spirit to hear what he says to the church.
  zh: 我们的耳朵被圣灵开启，听他对教会所说的话。
- start: 2925.939941406
  end: 2929.360107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: We turn our eyes forward to see the bread broken.
  zh: 我们向前看，看到饼被擘开。
- start: 2929.399902344
  end: 2932.179931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: We open our mouths to feast and to drink.
  zh: 我们张开嘴吃喝。
- start: 2932.260009766
  end: 2936.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: Our hands extend the bread and wine to our brothers and sisters.
  zh: 我们的手将饼和酒递给我们的弟兄姐妹。
- start: 2936.300048828
  end: 2939.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: We lift our hands in holy praise.
  zh: 我们举手圣洁地赞美。
- start: 2939.100097656
  end: 2945.860107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_G
  en: The minister lifts his hands to bless us in the triune name, and we extend open hands to receive this gift.
  zh: 牧师举手奉三位一体的名祝福我们，我们伸出张开的手接受这份礼物。
- start: 2945.860107422
  end: 2948.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's still a question here, though, like why?
  zh: 不过，这里还有一个问题，就是为什么？
- start: 2948.560058594
  end: 2950.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why does God meet us in this way?
  zh: 为什么神以这种方式与我们相遇？
- start: 2950.100097656
  end: 2951.879882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why is worship so bodily?
  zh: 为什么敬拜如此身体化？
- start: 2951.879882812
  end: 2957.840087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why is spiritual worship from the Christian and not the Gnostic sense something that isn't disembodied?
  zh: 为什么基督教意义上的属灵敬拜，而不是诺斯底主义意义上的，是不脱离身体的？
- start: 2957.840087891
  end: 2968.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, ironically, I think Spurgeon makes a pretty good case that once you understand the nature of man and soul and body, you see why it's really important if God wants many of us to be saved.
  zh: 讽刺的是，我认为司布真提出了一个很好的论点，一旦你理解了人的本质、灵魂和身体，你就会明白为什么如果神想要我们许多人得救，这真的很重要。
- start: 2968.719970703
  end: 2975.820068359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, ironically, Spurgeon is going to use this as an argument against the externals, but the early Christians saw this as an argument for them.
  zh: 现在，讽刺的是，司布真将用这个作为反对外在形式的论点，但早期基督徒将此视为支持外在形式的论点。
- start: 2975.820068359
  end: 2985.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: The most of mankind cannot get on with a religion in which there is nothing to see, nothing to please the ear or to gratify their taste.
  zh: 大多数人无法接受一种没有什么可看的、没有什么可悦耳的或满足他们口味的宗教。
- start: 2985.540039062
  end: 3007.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_F
  en: It is only the spiritual man who is so overwhelmed with the glories of God that he does not need the glories of man, so overcome with the splendor of Christ that he does not want the splendor of the mass, so taken up with the magnificence of the great high priest that he does not care for gorgeously appareled priests.
  zh: 只有属灵的人才会被神的荣耀所压倒，以至于他不需要人的荣耀；被基督的辉煌所征服，以至于他不想要弥撒的辉煌；被大祭司的宏伟所吸引，以至于他不在乎华丽装扮的祭司。
- start: 3007.040039062
  end: 3012.379882812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So on this point, I want to stress that I think, largely, Spurgeon is right.
  zh: 所以在这一点上，我想强调我认为司布真在很大程度上是对的。
- start: 3012.379882812
  end: 3021.040039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If Christianity really were this disembodied thing, it wouldn't be accessible to most of the people God desires to save.
  zh: 如果基督教真的是这种脱离身体的东西，那么神想要拯救的大多数人就无法接近它。
- start: 3021.040039062
  end: 3026.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Very few would be able to live in this totally denuded sort of way.
  zh: 很少有人能够以这种完全赤裸的方式生活。
- start: 3027.020019531
  end: 3034.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is one of the points that St. Athanasius of Alexandria points out in the 300s as for why the Incarnation happened in the first place.
  zh: 这是亚历山大的圣亚他那修在4世纪指出的关于道成肉身最初发生的原因之一。
- start: 3034.260009766
  end: 3043.739990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He puts it like this, When then the minds of men had fallen finally to the level of sensible things, we were so distracted by the material world.
  zh: 他是这样说的，当人的心思最终堕落到感官事物的层面时，我们被物质世界如此分心。
- start: 3044.320068359
  end: 3061.959960938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God doesn't just abandon us, rather, he says, the word submitted to appear in a body in order that he, as man, might center their senses on himself and convince him through his human action that he himself is not man only, but also God, the word and wisdom of the true God.
  zh: 神并没有抛弃我们，相反，他说，道屈尊以身体的形式出现，为的是他作为人，可以将他们的感官集中在他自己身上，并通过他的人性行为使他们确信，他自己不仅是人，也是神，是真神的道和智慧。
- start: 3061.959960938
  end: 3068.060058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, the remedy to idolatry is that Christ comes bodily into the world.
  zh: 换句话说，对偶像崇拜的补救是基督以肉身来到世界。
- start: 3068.159912109
  end: 3070.540039062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You want a God you can worship visibly?
  zh: 你想要一个可以看得见的神来敬拜吗？
- start: 3070.800048828
  end: 3072.360107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Here's a God you can worship visibly.
  zh: 这里有一个你可以看得见的神来敬拜。
- start: 3072.360107422
  end: 3077.840087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so Christ comes into the world bodily, and he gives us things like the Eucharist.
  zh: 因此，基督以肉身来到世界，并给我们圣餐等事物。
- start: 3077.899902344
  end: 3082.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So this isn't idolatry, this is the remedy to idolatry.
  zh: 所以这不是偶像崇拜，这是对偶像崇拜的补救。
- start: 3083.899902344
  end: 3088.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is, kind of by way of closing, I want to just get to the heart of this.
  zh: 这是，作为结束，我想直接进入这个问题的核心。
- start: 3088.939941406
  end: 3092.899902344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because as I say, Gnosticism is Antichrist, biblically speaking.
  zh: 因为正如我所说，从圣经的角度来看，诺斯底主义是敌基督的。
- start: 3092.959960938
  end: 3097.659912109
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And yet we find these arguments being used by Protestant authors over and over again.
  zh: 然而，我们发现这些论点被新教作者反复使用。
- start: 3097.659912109
  end: 3105.739990234
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not all Protestants, not all the time, not in a full encapsulation of everything the Gnostics believed, but enough that this should be of some alarm.
  zh: 不是所有的新教徒，不是所有的时候，不是完全包含诺斯底主义者所相信的一切，但足以引起一些警惕。
- start: 3105.739990234
  end: 3117.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There is often this idea that, as I said earlier, this idea that the reason Catholic Christianity is so bodily and all of that is because of paganism.
  zh: 正如我之前所说，经常有这样一种观点，认为天主教基督教如此强调身体性的原因是因为异教。
- start: 3117.260009766
  end: 3123.419921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That this is the introduction of paganism into what had otherwise been this purely spiritual early Christianity.
  zh: 这是将异教引入原本纯粹属灵的早期基督教。
- start: 3123.419921875
  end: 3126.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That could not be further from the truth.
  zh: 这与事实相去甚远。
- start: 3126.0
  end: 3131.520019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The reason Catholic Christianity is so bodily is because Christianity is so bodily.
  zh: 天主教基督教如此强调身体性的原因是因为基督教本身就如此强调身体性。
- start: 3131.520019531
  end: 3133.639892578
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because Christ is bodily.
  zh: 因为基督是有形体的。
- start: 3134.239990234
  end: 3143.179931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so I want to close with Gerard van Groningen, the Reformed theologian, in his book First Century Gnosticism.
  zh: 所以我想以改革宗神学家杰拉德·范·格罗宁根在他的《第一世纪的诺斯底主义》一书中的观点作为结束。
- start: 3143.320068359
  end: 3146.840087891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He makes a point that is exactly along these lines.
  zh: 他提出的观点正是沿着这些思路。
- start: 3147.040039062
  end: 3153.719970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That the Gnostics are indebted not to Judaism, which they tend to loathe, but to paganism.
  zh: 诺斯底主义者不是受犹太教的影响，他们倾向于厌恶犹太教，而是受异教的影响。
- start: 3153.719970703
  end: 3158.659912109
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says it like this, he says, The Old Testament idea of salvation is definitely contrary to the Gnostic.
  zh: 他是这样说的，他说，旧约的救赎观念绝对与诺斯底主义相反。
- start: 3158.659912109
  end: 3162.679931641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Jewish and Christian view is that of salvation from sin.
  zh: 犹太教和基督教的观点是从罪中得救。
- start: 3162.800048828
  end: 3170.360107422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Gnostic salvation is in the pagan category, released from fate, the strains and stresses of this life, and from the bondage of the stars.
  zh: 诺斯底主义的救赎属于异教范畴，从命运、今生的压力和紧张，以及星辰的束缚中解脱出来。
- start: 3170.860107422
  end: 3175.919921875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Meaning you're free from both fate and the material cosmos.
  zh: 这意味着你从命运和物质宇宙中都获得了自由。
- start: 3175.919921875
  end: 3186.219970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Gnostic concept of man as a divine being imprisoned in this material world and separated from his true abode by the barriers of the cosmos also sets forth the basic difference from Jewish thought.
  zh: 诺斯底主义将人视为被囚禁在物质世界中的神圣存在，被宇宙的障碍与其真正的居所分离，这一概念也表明了它与犹太思想的根本区别。
- start: 3186.219970703
  end: 3187.600097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's the idea.
  zh: 这就是这个观点。
- start: 3187.600097656
  end: 3196.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That if you want to understand what's going on here, it's not Catholic Christianity is bodily because of paganism, it's the opposite.
  zh: 如果你想理解这里发生的事，不是天主教基督教因为异教而强调身体性，恰恰相反。
- start: 3196.439941406
  end: 3202.719970703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Catholic Christianity's bodilyness made it contrary to the educated paganism of its day.
  zh: 天主教基督教的身体性使它与当时的知识分子异教相反。
- start: 3202.719970703
  end: 3214.800048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it's because of pagan thought that you get Gnosticism, and then those seeds that get planted and come up again and again in Christian history in heresies like the Cathars have also taken root.
  zh: 正是因为异教思想，你才有了诺斯底主义，然后这些种子被种下，在基督教历史中一次又一次地出现，如卡塔里派等异端也扎根了。
- start: 3214.800048828
  end: 3224.939941406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Often in a strained, not a fully fledged out form, but you can certainly see it in many of the arguments against Catholicism from certain Protestant quarters.
  zh: 通常是以一种勉强的、不完全成熟的形式，但你肯定可以在某些新教阵营反对天主教的许多论点中看到它。
- start: 3225.300048828
  end: 3228.260009766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I would love to hear your response to this.
  zh: 我很想听听你对此的回应。
- start: 3228.260009766
  end: 3235.020019531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I've tried very much, I hope you can tell, to be fair to the Protestants who I know are not consciously Gnostics.
  zh: 我非常努力，我希望你能看出来，我试图公平对待那些我知道并非有意成为诺斯底主义者的新教徒。
- start: 3235.439941406
  end: 3237.560058594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I would love to hear your own experience.
  zh: 但我很想听听你自己的经历。
- start: 3237.600097656
  end: 3245.780029297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Have you found in your current worship, if you're a Protestant, or maybe former worship if you're a former Protestant, strains of Gnosticism?
  zh: 如果你是新教徒，你在目前的敬拜中是否发现了诺斯底主义的痕迹？或者如果你是前新教徒，你在以前的敬拜中是否发现过？
- start: 3245.780029297
  end: 3248.100097656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Were there elements of this that I missed?
  zh: 我是否遗漏了其中的一些元素？
- start: 3248.679931641
  end: 3251.300048828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, I'd love to hear more about this.
  zh: 是的，我很想听到更多关于这方面的内容。
- start: 3251.300048828
  end: 3256.199951172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because I think this is a serious problem that I don't see us addressing enough.
  zh: 因为我认为这是一个严重的问题，我觉得我们没有充分地解决它。
- start: 3256.479980469
  end: 3257.979980469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For Seamus Potpourri, I'm Joe Heischmayer.
  zh: 我是乔·赫什迈尔，为无耻教皇党节目报道。
- start: 3257.979980469
  end: 3258.820068359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God bless you.
  zh: 愿神祝福你。
