邪灵附身、奇迹般的治愈、赶鬼——正如伦敦神学院的学术院长格雷厄姆 ·奎尔夫特里所指出的，这些内容在新约的记述中占有相当重要的地位。 Demonic possessions, miraculous cures, exorcisms—these things play a pretty big part of the New Testament story, as Graham Quelftree points out, the academic dean for the London School of Theology.
在对观福音书《马太福音》、《马可福音》和《路加福音》中，与 耶稣相关的所有事工当中，赶鬼似乎是占据祂最多时间的一项。 Of all the activities associated with Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, exorcism appears to be the single activity that took the greatest amount of His time.
然而，听许多现代基督徒谈起基督信仰时，你可能并不会意识到这一点。 Now, you would not know that listening to the way a lot of modern Christians talk about Christianity.
他们不会提到超自然现象、圣物、奇迹或赶鬼，或者类似的内容。 There's no mention of the supernatural, of relics, or miracles, or exorcisms, or any of these things.
然而，正如一二三所指出的，我们在古代历史或文 学中都找不到有谁据说施行过如此多的赶鬼事工。 And yet, as 123 points out, we know of no historical or literary figure in antiquity who is said to have conducted so many exorcisms.
那么，我们该如何调和这一点呢？ So how do we square this?
嗯，十二街提出的观点是：我们这些现代人对赶鬼会感到不自在。 Well, 12th Street makes the argument that we're uncomfortable with exorcisms as moderns.
我们觉得这就像是古人相信的一种迷信之类的东西。 We think of this as kind of a superstitious thing that old people believed in in antiquity.
他是这样说的：据说可以透过某人强行驱赶灵体而得到治愈。 And he puts it like this: he says it can be cured through someone purportedly forcing the spiritual beings to leave.
对吧？ Right?
就像这种说法对现代基督徒而言并不怎么好接受，对现代的非基督徒而言也是如此。 Like that is not a claim that sits well with modern Christians any more than it sits well with modern non-Christians.
S. 韦尔斯·弗里说，对于绝大部分圣经学者和神学家来 说，这几乎等同于相信精灵、巨龙或扁平地球之类的东西。 S. Wells Free says for the vast majority of biblical scholars and theologians, this is tantamount to belief in such entities as elves, dragons, or a flat earth.
我还想更进一步指出，有不少人相信那三样东西中的某一 种，却仍然对邪灵的存在以及赶鬼的真实性感到迟疑。 I would go further and say plenty of people believe in one of those three things and still balk at the idea that the demonic exists and that exorcisms are real.
或许我们可以这样来表达这个问题：在《路加福音》第十一章里， 耶稣说：「我若靠着神的能力赶鬼，这就是神的国临到你们了。」 So maybe we could put the problem like this: in Luke chapter 11, Jesus says, If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
这是耶稣的核心讯息。 That is the core message of Jesus.
在《马可福音》的开篇里说：「日期满了，神的国近了。你们当悔改，信福音！」 The opening words in Mark's Gospel: Repent and believe, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
耶稣借由赶鬼来显明神的国近了，靠着神的能力赶出邪灵，表明神的手正临在他们当中。 One of the ways Jesus showed that the kingdom of God was at hand was the exorcism, that the finger of God is among you in casting out demons.
我们之后会回到《路加福音》第十一章再仔细看，但我想 先说明，作为基督徒，我们必须将这两方面协调起来。 And we're going to get back to Luke 11 and take a closer look at that, but I want to just acknowledge that we have to square these two things as Christians.
一方面，从阅读新约就能很清楚地看到，赶鬼在各处 出现，耶稣也确实做了许多祂所认为的赶鬼之举。 On the one hand, it's very clear from reading the New Testament that exorcisms are all over the place and that Jesus is doing a lot of what He believes are exorcisms.
另一方面，我们也很清楚，如今我们知道很多在中世纪或古代被 视为灵性问题的情况，其实可能是医学或心理学方面的问题。 On the other hand, it's clear that we now know that many things maybe old people in the medieval era or the ancient world thought of as spiritual problems are medical or psychological problems.
因此，让我们直面这个反对意见，因为我认为这 正是我们对那些奇迹论断感到不安的核心所在。 So let's confront that objection head-on because I think that's at the heart of where we get really uncomfortable with the miraculous claims.
那么，让我们谈谈奇迹与医学吧。 So let's talk about miracles and medicine.
最常见的误解之一是，古人，甚至耶稣那个时代的人，或许包 括耶稣自己，都把一切都视为灵性问题，但这并不符合事实。 One of the most common misconceptions is that the ancients, the people in Jesus' day, maybe Jesus Himself, viewed everything as a spiritual problem, and that is simply not true.
实际上，圣经的记载指向了相反的情况。 In fact, the biblical evidence points to the opposite.
例如，在《马太福音》第四章里，我们看到这样描述耶稣的事工：「耶稣走遍加利利 ，在各会堂里教训人，宣传天国的福音，医治百姓各样的疾病、各样的患病的。」 In Matthew chapter 4, for instance, we find Jesus' ministry described this way: that He was going about Galilee, teaching in the synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every infirmity among the people.
「他的名声就传遍了叙利亚。那里的人把一切害病的，就是害各样疾病、各样 疼痛的，和被鬼附的，癫痫的、瘫痪的，都带了来，耶稣就治好了他们。」 So the same spread throughout all Syria, and they brought Him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, and paralytics, and He healed them.
请留意其中所提到的，你可以这么说：那里列举了不同类型的疾病或病症。 So notice what you have there: you have different categories of ailment or illness, if you want to put it that way.
一方面，有些人遭受生理方面的病痛；另一方面，还有人受精神或 神经方面的疾病所困；然后也有被鬼附的，遭遇灵性折磨的人。 You've got, on the one hand, people suffering from a physical condition; on the other hand, you have people suffering from a mental or a neurological condition; and then you have demoniacs who are suffering from a spiritual affliction.
这当中隐含着一种认知：这些都是彼此不同的类别，不同种类 的疾病或病患并不尽相同，其中部分但并非全部是灵性的。 But there is implicit in this a recognition that those are different categories, that there is a distinction between different types of ailment or illness, and some of that, but not all of it.
事实上，耶稣曾形容自己的事工像是一位灵性的医生。 In fact, Jesus describes His own ministry as being a spiritual physician.
祂说：「健康的人用不着医生，有病的人才用得着。」 He says, Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
这句话暗示，的确存在某些病患，他们需要的不是祭司、牧者或赶鬼者，而是医生。 What's implied within that is that there is such a thing as illness for which you need not a priest or a pastor or an exorcist, but a physician.
因此，耶稣是在比喻性地将这些话应用在祂自己身上，对吧？ And so Jesus is applying those words metaphorically to Himself, right?
祂并不是自称真正的行医医生。 He's not claiming to be an actual medical doctor here.
祂对人进行的是灵性的治疗，但这也预设了确实存在像医生那样的医学治疗。 He's performing spiritual cures with people, but that presupposes that there is such a thing as medical doctors, as physicians.
其实，那句话记载在《路加福音》，而保罗在《 歌罗西书》中则告诉我们路加是所亲爱的医生。 In fact, those words were in the Gospel of Luke, and we're told by St. Paul in Colossians that Luke is the beloved physician.
所以，与我们现代对古人的一些偏见相反，古代世界实 际上是明白并不是所有的事都与灵体或邪灵有关的。 So the ancient world, contrary to our modern kind of prejudices against it, understood that not everything was spirits, not everything was demons.
当然，他们或许也会误诊一些情况；也许我们现在同样会。 Now, maybe they misdiagnosed some things; maybe we do as well.
但这并不能用来否定邪灵的存在。 But that doesn't prove the case against the demonic.
我举个例子：有种状况被称为身心疾病，「心理」指的是精神状态，「躯体」指的是 身体。有时当内心感到痛苦、焦虑等压力时，就会在确实的身体症状中表现出来。 I'd give this example: there's what's called psychosomatic disorders, psycho meaning like the psyche, the mental state, and soma, the body, that there are things that can go wrong where your interior distress, anxiety, that sort of thing can manifest in actual physical ailments.
那么，一位医生在看诊时，可能会把它误诊。 Now, a doctor could look at that, and they might misdiagnose it.
他们可能会把心理问题错当作生理问题，或把生理问题错当作心理问题。 They might mistake a psychological problem for a physical one or a physical one for a psychological one.
许多人都有类似的误诊经历：他们本来有某种非常顽 固的病，却被医生说成「一切都在你的脑子里」。 Plenty of people have these stories about being misdiagnosed, that they had a really chronic condition, and they went to the doctor, and the doctor said, Oh, it's all in your head.
你是忧虑、焦虑、神经质等等，而事实上他们是真的有身体方面的问题。 You're distressed, or you're anxious, or you're neurotic, or whatever else, and they really had a physical problem.
或者也有完全相反的情况。 Or you have people where it's the other way around.
他们其实需要心理健康的照顾，却去做了一堆根本不需要的身体检查或治疗。 They go and get a bunch of unnecessary procedures done when they really needed some sort of mental health care.
因此，我们现在能区分这些情形，并指出：看，人有不同层面、不同范畴可以考虑。 So we can make that distinction now and say, Look, there's these different categories, these different buckets, if you will, in the human person.
你有心理层面和身体层面。 You have the mind and the body.
同样地，也可能灵魂才是出现问题的原因，而非心理或身体方面。 Well, likewise, the soul may be the reason why things are going wrong, not the mind or the body.
它可能并不是心理病症，也不是身体病症，而是源于灵性的层面。 It may not be a mental problem; it may not be a bodily problem; it may be a spiritual problem.
所以我希望这个区分是清晰的。 So I hope that distinction is clear.
你不必相信每个问题都是邪灵造成的。 You don't have to believe that every problem is demons.
新约也并没有宣称每个问题都是邪灵。 The New Testament doesn't claim that every problem is demons.
它相当清楚地记载耶稣进行了身体上的治愈。 It quite clearly shows Jesus performing physical healing.
也清楚显示祂进行了许多与驱赶邪灵毫无关系的医治。 It quite clearly shows Him doing a lot of healings that don't involve driving out demons whatsoever.
而且，也明显表明（与一些现代团体如基督科学派不同），医学医生是好的。 And it quite clearly shows, contrary to some modern groups like the Christian Scientists, that medical doctors are good.
这是神的计划之一：照顾好身体。 This is part of God's plan: you take care of the body.
综上所述，我认为我们需要提防现代人的偏见，不要假设古代人都荒唐无知。 So given all of that, I would suggest we want to watch out for modern bias, assuming the people in the past were just silly and stupid.
事实上，我还想更进一步说，作为基督徒，我们必须认真看待关于超自然现象的论证。 In fact, I would go further than that and say we need to, as Christians, take very seriously the argument from the supernatural.
而在这里我要探讨的论证，就是有关邪灵的观点。 And the argument I'm going to look at in this case is the argument from the demonic.
不过，你也完全可以对奇迹提出类似的论证。 But you can make a parallel argument for the miraculous.
我接下来的论点在这两种情况都适用，不管是超自然的恶势力还是善势力都不是重点。 The arguments I'm going to make work in both directions, whether it's a supernatural malevolent force or benevolent force is not really the point.
重点是，这些存在无法用自然主义或唯物论来解释，在无神论的立场上也说不通。 The point is that you have these beings that can't be explained in a naturalistic, material way and that don't make sense on the grounds of atheism.
那么，就让我们来谈谈这个问题吧。 So let's talk about that.
要举证什么？ What is the burden of proof?
为什么无论是基督徒还是非基督徒，都应该严肃对待有关邪灵的说法呢？ Why should everyone, Christians and non-Christians, take really seriously the demonic claim?
再重申一次，为了让我们都更明白：基督徒并不主张每一种病症都是鬼怪或奇迹。 To just reiterate and to make sure we're really clear, Christians do not claim that every ailment is a demon or a ghost or a miracle.
我们甚至也不坚持所有据称涉及邪灵、奇迹或鬼魂现象的说法都真实不虚。 We don't even claim that all purported demonic or miraculous or ghostly sightings are real.
我们倾向于逐案审视。 We rather take them on a case-by-case basis.
许多人以为自己看见鬼，却并没有；也有人以为自己生病了，其实只是心里作用。 Plenty of people think that they saw a ghost and didn't. Plenty of people think they're sick and it's in their head.
但这既无法否定疾病，也无法否定鬼魂的可能性。 That doesn't disprove the idea of sickness; it doesn't disprove the idea of ghosts.
反过来说，至少那些唯物主义无神论者——相信世界只有物质存在，没有任何超自然或灵性 维度——他们在定义上就否决了鬼魂、邪灵附身、奇迹以及任何神或超自然作为的真实性。 On the flip side, atheists, at least what are called materialistic atheists, atheists who believe that the world of matter is all there is, there's no supernatural or spiritual world, they deny definitionally the reality of ghosts, of demonic possessions, of miracles, of any kind of divine or supernatural action.
在评估任何具体案例之前，如果欧格蕾迪小姐说她原先得了个很可怕的病，医 生说她只能活三十秒，然后她做了一个祈祷后奇迹般地痊愈出院，崔斯坦可能 会说：「这太神奇了，这是个奇迹，」或者说：「嗯，也许是医生误诊了。」 Prior to judging any particular case, if Miss O'Grady says there was this horrible ailment that I had and the doctor said I had 30 seconds to live, and then I said this prayer and it was miraculously cured and left the hospital, Tristan can say, That's amazing, that's a miracle, or, Well, maybe the doctor's misdiagnosed you.
他们可以自由选择相信哪种可能。 They're free to do either one.
但对无神论者来说，不管哪个结论都可能与他们先前所持的立场相矛盾。 The atheist is not free to do either one without contradicting their priors.
因为他们的前提已经排除了这个问题，他们已经事先做了判断。 Their priors foreclose the question; they've prejudged it.
G.K. 却斯特顿在他1905年写的《正统信仰》一书中非常有力地阐明了这一点。 他说，他之所以相信在人类历史上真的发生过奇迹，并不是出于什么神秘主义的信念。 G.K. Chesterton makes this point in a powerful way in his book Orthodoxy, back in, I believe, 1905. He says, My belief that miracles have happened in human history is not a mystical belief at all.
我相信它们，是基于人类证据，就像我相信美洲的发现一样。 I believe in them upon human evidence as I do in the discovery of America.
像却斯特顿这样的英国人，其实并没有亲眼见过美洲， 但他通过他人的见证和此类证据就相信了美洲的存在。 An Englishman like Chesterton, he hasn't seen America directly, but he believes in it on the basis of the testimony of others, on that kind of evidence.
这也是他会说自己相信奇迹的原因。 And this is why he's going to say he believes in miracles.
不过，他接着说，有一个简单的逻辑事实我们必须搞清楚。 But then he says there's a simple logical fact that we have to get straight.
不知怎的，人们竟产生一种奇怪的看法：不信奇迹的人会冷静公 正地对待奇迹，而相信奇迹的人则只是因为某种教条而附和。 Somehow or other, an extraordinary idea has arisen that the disbelievers in miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles accept them only in connection with some dogma.
换句话说，就好像基督徒是被迫接受这些荒诞的奇迹主张，而 无神论者、不可知论者以及怀疑论者则是逐条冷静地评估。 In other words, as if Christians are forced to accept these ridiculous miraculous claims while atheists and agnostics and skeptics are just coldly evaluating on a case-by-case basis.
他认为这其实完全颠倒了。 And he says that gets things entirely back.
事实正好相反。 The fact is quite the other way around.
相信奇迹的人之所以接受那些奇迹，不管对错，是因为他们拥有相应的证据。 The believers in miracles accept them, rightly or wrongly, because they have evidence for them.
不相信奇迹的人之所以否定那些奇迹，不管对错，则是因为他们持有与此相冲突的教条。 The disbelievers in miracles deny them, rightly or wrongly, because they have a doctrine against them.
换句话说，以欧格蕾迪的例子为例。 In other words, take the O'Grady example.
我可以因为欧格蕾迪本身而选择相信或不相信她的话。 I can believe or disbelieve O'Grady because of O'Grady.
而无神论者会从一开始就拒绝欧格蕾迪的说法，因为她的见证与他的世界观不符。 The atheist rejects O'Grady at the outset because her testimony doesn't fit with his vision of the world.
这就是教条主义，而却斯特顿也正是把这种态度点出来，指称它确实就是教条主义。 That's dogmatism, and Chesterton's going to call it out for the dogmatism that it is.
用他的话说：「最直接、最显而易见、符合民主的做法，就是在一个卖苹果的老 太太见证了奇迹时相信她，就如同你在她见证了谋杀案时也会相信她一样。」 In his words, The open, obvious democratic thing is to believe an old apple woman when she bears testimony to a miracle, just as you believe an old apple woman when she bears testimony to a murder.
「普遍而平凡的做法是：你会在农民关于鬼魂的 证词上，给予与他对地主的证词同等的信任。」 The plain popular course is to trust the peasant's word about the ghost exactly as far as you trust the peasant's word about the landlord.
他指出：「你可以用农民提出、对鬼魂存在有利的证据装满大英博物馆。」 And he points out, Look, you could fill the British Museum with evidence uttered by the peasant and given in favor of the ghost.
若说到人类的见证，支持超自然现象的证词多得如同巨大的瀑布倾泻。 If it comes to human testimony, there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favor of the supernatural.
我想对这点做个见证。 Now, I want to witness to this.
有一次我在堪萨斯州劳伦斯的一家酒吧——那是堪萨斯大学所 在地——我和一些人要见面，但我提早了一个小时到那里。 I was once at a bar in Lawrence, Kansas, the home of the University of Kansas, and I was just meeting up with some people, and I was there by mistake an hour early.
结果我就跟那家酒吧的常客们聊了起来，他们在工作日的晚上六七点左右就会过来。 And so I ended up talking to the bar regulars who were just there on a weeknight at 6 or 7 or whatever time it was.
不知怎么的，话题就转到了奇迹、鬼魂、邪灵这些超自然、令人毛骨悚然的现象上。 And somehow the conversation got around to the miraculous and to ghosts and to demons, just kind of those supernatural, eerie sort of sightings.
看起来好像酒吧里的每个人——我确定不是真的每个人——可是一位接一位，都觉得自己在 那种「哦，我们可以放心谈这些事」的安全环境下，开始一个接一个地分享类似的故事。 And it seemed that every person in that bar—I'm sure it wasn't literally everyone—but it was one person after another after another, once they had kind of the safety of saying, Okay, this is a place where we can talk about this openly, one person after another after another had these stories.
那么，这是否就能自动证明其中任何或所有的故事都是真实的呢？ Now, does that automatically prove that any or all of the stories are true?
并不能。 It does not.
但若假设没有大量见证支持这些现象，那就错了。 But it would be a mistake to assume that there isn't a lot of testimonial evidence in favor of these things.
人们声称目睹了许多与无神论相抵触的事情。 People claim to have seen a lot of stuff that contradicts atheism.
正如却斯特顿所论述的，你只能对此作出反应。 And so you can only, as Chesterton argues, respond to that.
若你要否定，那就得在两种方法中择其一。 If you're going to reject it, you have to do it in one of two ways.
要么因为那是农民的故事而否定，要么因为那是鬼魂的故事而否定。 You either reject the peasant story because he's a peasant or because the story's a ghost story.
如果你仅仅因为他是农民就否定他的故事，那就等于否定了民主的基本原则。 If you reject the peasant story because he's a peasant, he says you deny the main principle of democracy.
你这样做只是在居高临下地认为：「嗯，这个人 没我聪明，他一定很轻信，一定什么都信。」 You're just kind of taking this condescending view that, Well, this person isn't as smart as me; they must be gullible; they must believe just anything.
你如果愿意，可以对同胞抱持这种看法，或者你也能肯定 唯物主义的核心原则：奇迹在抽象层面上不可能发生。 You can take that view of your fellow man if you want to, or you could affirm the main principle of materialism: the abstract impossibility of the miracle.
但无论哪种情况，你在这里都是在坚持教条主义。 But in either case, you're being the dogmatist here.
你并不是依据证据本身来评估，而是因为证据与自己的教条不合而拒绝它。 You're not evaluating the evidence on its merits; you're rejecting the evidence because it doesn't agree with your dogmas.
而身为基督徒，我们需要更好地指出这点。 And as Christians, we need to do a better job of calling that out.
而对于无神论者，我认为你们也需要更好地认清这个事实并与之和解。 And as atheists, I think you need to do a better job of recognizing that reality and coming to terms with it.
因为不存在所谓「缺乏超自然见证就能逻辑上推导无神论」的必然性。 That no, it is not true that atheism just logically follows from the lack of testimony about the supernatural.
其实有大量与超自然现象相关的见证。 There's an abundance of testimony about the supernatural.
而无神论往往一开始就完全排斥它。 Atheism rejects it in most cases entirely out of hand.
我们接下来就要看看其中一个案例。 We're going to take a look at one of those cases in a little bit here.
却斯特顿是这样说的：「是我们基督徒接受一切真实的证据。」 Chesterton says it like this: he says, It is we Christians who accept all actual evidence.
「而你们理性主义者，因为你们的信条而拒绝接受真实的证据。」 It is you rationalists who refuse actual evidence, being constrained to do so by your creed.
「我并没有被我的信条限制。纵观中世纪和现代时期的一些奇 迹，我公正地加以审视，最终得出它们确实发生过的结论。」 I'm not constrained by my creed in the matter, and looking impartially into certain miracles of medieval and modern times, I've come to the conclusion that they occurred.
但请注意，他并不是被迫接受这些奇迹的，对吧？ But notice he's not forced to accept them, right?
他可以自由地处理证据，追随证据所指向的方向。 He's free to handle the evidence, follow wherever it goes.
而那些嗤之以鼻、断言「绝不可能」的人，却是在没 有真正依据的情况下，就已经对这事做出了审判。 But the person who kind of scoffs, who says that could never happen, has already judged the case on a thing that they really have no basis upon which to judge it.
却斯特顿指出，这里的论证往往相当荒谬，而且是循环论证。 And Chesterton points out the arguments here are usually pretty absurdly circular.
他说：「假设我说中世纪的文献在见证某些奇迹时，和见 证某些战役时一样可信，这其实是相当真实的，对吧？」 He says, If I say medieval documents attest certain miracles as much as they attest certain battles, and this is pretty true, right?
你去看古代和中世纪的文献，就会发现他们理所当 然地提到某些奇迹的发生，并且有人亲眼看到了。 You look at ancient and medieval documents, you're going to find taken for granted in there the idea that certain miracles happened and the person there witnessed them.
这并不是那种会引起极大争议的宣称，也不会登上大标题，而是被默认为事实。 It's not some sort of controversial claim; it's not going to get a lot of headlines; it's just taken as a given.
然而，现代历史学家会接受关于战争的证据，却不接受关于奇迹的证词。 And yet modern historians are going to accept the testimony about the war but not about the miracle.
恺撒率军渡过卢比孔河就有一个著名的例子可说明。 There's a famous example of this in the crossing of the Rubicon by Julius Caesar.
据说恺撒声称自己得到了某种暗示或超自然的指引，让他下定决心渡河。 Julius Caesar claimed to have gotten a sign, like some sort of supernatural sign, that he was supposed to cross.
现今的历史学家并不相信那个暗示，但他们相信确实发生了渡 过卢比孔河这事，只是并不认同所有当时见证者所说的方式。 Now, historians don't believe in the sign, but they do believe the crossing of the Rubicon happened, just not the way everyone who witnessed it said it happened.
这实际上就是教条主义，并不是如他们所说的单纯跟随已有证据。 That's dogmatism; that's not just following the available evidence.
所以先将这个点记下来。 So put a pin on that.
我要回到却斯特顿的论点。 I'm going to go back to Chesterton's argument.
他接着说：「如果我说中世纪文献中对某些奇迹的见证与对某些战役的见证 同样可信，那么理性主义者就会回应说：『但中世纪的人是迷信的。』」 So he says, If I say medieval documents attest certain miracles as much as they attest certain battles, they, meaning rationalists, answer, But medievals were superstitious.
「如果我想知道他们是怎样迷信的，得到的唯一终极答案就是他们相信奇迹。」 If I want to know what they were superstitious, the only ultimate answer is that they believed in miracles.
所以，你就看到了其中的循环论证。 So you see the circularity.
如果你说只有在不相信奇迹的人讲述时才会接受奇迹说法，这不只是 「在天平上按了手指」，而是你在审理案件之前就先行下了判决。 If you say you'll only accept miraculous accounts if told by people who don't believe in miracles, you're putting not just a thumb on the scale; you're seemingly judging the case before it's before you.
同样的，他说：「如果我说某个农民看见了鬼，人家就会回应『但农民都很轻信。』」 Likewise, he says, If I say a peasant saw a ghost, I'm told, 'But peasants are so credulous.'
「如果我问：为什么说他轻信？唯一的答案是因为他看见了鬼。」 If I ask why credulous, the only answer is that they see ghosts.
所以，你总能把目光投向社会底层，或是学识水平不如你的人，然 后说：「哦，那些人又蠢又轻信，我不打算相信他们的证据。」 So you can always look at, you know, the underclass or the people who don't have the same degrees as you and say, Oh, those people are stupid and gullible, and I'm not going to believe their evidence.
然而，也许你只是在先入为主地审判他们。 But it may be that you're just prejudging the case.
他们或许真看到了你没有看到的东西。 They actually are onto something that you're not.
于是却斯特顿这样形容：「想象一个论点是『冰岛根本不可能存在，因为只有 愚蠢的水手见过它』，而那些水手之所以愚蠢，只是因为他们见过冰岛。」 And so Chesterton puts it like this: he says, Imagine an argument that just goes, 'Iceland is impossible because only stupid sailors have seen it,' and the sailors are only stupid because they've seen Iceland.
就好比说「他们见过冰岛」。 Like saying they've seen Iceland.
这就是你在做的事。 Like that's what you're doing here.
如果你说「中世纪的人因为声称有奇迹而显得愚蠢」或者「他们因为 声称有奇迹而轻信」，那就完全是一个循环论证。你的逻辑是：「我 可以接受任何关于奇迹的证据，除非提供证据的人相信奇迹。」 If the medievals are stupid because they claim miraculous stuff happens or they're credulous because they claim miraculous stuff happens, that is entirely a circular argument where you say, I'll take any evidence for the miraculous unless it's given by someone who believes in the miraculous.
还有什么证据能满足这种要求呢？ What evidence could possibly satisfy that?
好，简单说，举证责任看起来是这样子的：就如我先前所说，我们并不主张所有关于 邪灵、鬼魂或奇迹的说法都真实，但唯物主义无神论者则一概否定那些说法的真实。 All right, so putting it very simply, the burden of proof looks something like this: as I said before, we don't claim that all claims of demons or ghosts or miracles are true, but rather the materialist atheists deny the reality of all those claims.
因此，只要有一个相反的例子，就能推翻唯物主义的无神论立场。 So even one contrary case disproves materialistic atheism.
如果你能指出哪怕只是一个——比如说，有十件被称为奇迹的事、十个 所谓的邪灵附身案例、十次所谓的赶鬼、十次所谓的闹鬼事件，诸如此 类——也许你能提出非常有力的论点来说明其中九起是捏造或欺诈，或 者其实是被误诊的心理问题，又或者只是一栋老旧会吱呀作响的房子。 And if you can point to even one—so let's say there's ten alleged miracles, there are ten alleged demonic possession cases, ten alleged exorcisms, ten alleged ghost sightings, whatever it is—maybe you can make a really convincing argument that nine of those are hoaxes or frauds or the person was actually suffering from a mental issue that was misdiagnosed or whatever, it was just an old house that happens to be creaky.
但若其中有一个最终被证明确实是关于鬼魂、邪灵或什么样 的超自然现象的可信例子，那就成了基督信仰这边的证据。 But if that one turns out to be a pretty convincing account of ghosts and demons and, you know, supernatural in whatever form, that is evidence of the Christian side.
就好比：如果我相信确实存在所谓的新冠病毒，那么有人说：「我觉得你病了，但 不认为你得的是新冠，我也不这样认为。」这并不能作为否定新冠存在的证据。 So it's like this: if I believe that there is a thing called COVID-19, it doesn't disprove that to say, I think you're sick and I don't think you have COVID, which I don't think I do.
我觉得我有点感冒，但不认为是新冠。同样地，我正在录一个关于奇迹和邪灵的影片， 然后早上起来就病了，说话也说不清。有种回应方式是：「啊，也许是邪灵搞的。」 I think I'm a little sick; I don't think I have COVID. Well, likewise, I'm doing a video on miraculous stuff and on demonic stuff, and I wake up sick, unable to speak clearly, and one answer is, Ah, demons, maybe.
但这也可能只是身体上的小毛病。 But it could also just be a physical ailment.
我周围有人生病，所以我喝了一升半的柳橙汁，然 后咬牙坚持下去，只是比平时多带着些严肃感。 I was around people who were sick, and so I've just downed, you know, a liter and a half of orange juice, and we power through with a little more gravitas than usual.
我希望传达的要点是：只要其中有一个说法对基督徒一 方来说被证实行得通，这就能驳倒无神论者的立场。 I hope the point there is that if even one of those claims turns out to be true for the Christian side, that disproves the atheist side.
而如果其中有一个说法原来并不属实，这也丝毫不违背基督信仰。 But if one of those claims turns out not to be true, that's actually completely consistent with Christianity.
比方说，「我的生病可能并不是邪灵附身，只是个巧合」——这完全合理。 Like, it is fine to say my sickness is probably not demonic possession; it might just be a coincidence.
同样也可以说另一个案例可能不一样。 And it is fine to say this other case might be different.
所以我现在想做的，是看一个特定的案例。 So what I want to do now is look at one particular case.
对我个人而言，这是个非常引人入胜的案例，当然你的看法也许不同。 This is one case I have found really fascinating personally, and your mileage may vary.
你可能会觉得它很有意思，也可能觉得它很荒谬。 You might find it interesting; you might find it ridiculous.
但我觉得有意思的地方，在于基督徒和无神论者对它往往会有不同的反应。 But what I find fascinating about it is the different reactions Christians and atheists tend to have to it.
这个案例被称为「阿蒙斯赶鬼事件」。 It's called the Ammons exorcism case.
以下是其中一位参与此案的神父对这个事件的介绍。 So here's an introduction to the case from one of the priests involved.
我第一次听说这个事件，就是在那个男孩倒着走上墙之后。 The first time I heard about the incident was just after the boy walked up the wall backwards.
当时导致了一阵骚动，人们都跑出去，打电话叫警察。 There was a furor there about people running out, calling for the police.
保安和牧师，他们打电话给我。 Security, the chaplain, he called me.
「对不起，神父，您是在那个男孩做了什么之后被叫来的？」 I'm sorry, Father, you were called after the boy did what?
「他倒着走上墙？」 Walked up the wall backwards?
这只是这个案例中种种诡异事件的冰山一角而已。 This is just the tip of the iceberg of the strange things in this case.
谈到这个案子，必须要提的是它是由《印第安纳波利 斯星报》的马丽莎·克维亚托夫斯基率先报道的。 So, this case, credit where it's due, Marissa Kwiatkowski of the Indianapolis Star broke this case.
她后来因为揭发了拉里·纳萨尔对美国国家体操队体操选手的虐待案而更加出名。 She later became more famous for breaking the case of Larry Nassar and his abuse of the gymnasts for Team USA Gymnastics.
然而，在2014年她披露这项报道时，这算是她当时最大的一次爆料。 But at the time, back in 2014, when she broke this story, it was by far her biggest kind of breakthrough.
稍后我会谈到这一点，因为为了报道这个非常惊人、甚至可以 说有时令人难以置信的案例，她得克服一些制度上的阻力。 And I'm actually going to talk about that a little bit later on because she had to work against some institutional forces to present this really astonishing, and I think it's fair to say at times incredible sort of case.
我指的是真正意义上的既令人惊叹又难以置信，以至于有些人拒绝相信。 And I mean that in the literal sense of both amazing but also hard to believe, and some people refuse to believe it.
但正如我们将看到的，这里面有两大要素：一些难以解释 的事实，以及一些貌似互不关联、却相当可靠的见证人。 But it has two things going for it, as we're going to see: really hard to explain facts and a number of apparently unrelated and reputable sort of witnesses.
我会节选部分报道内容给你们看，这个故事从《印 第安纳波利斯星报》一路被转载到《今日美国》。 So I'm going to give you just some of the passages from this story, which was picked up from the Indianapolis Star to USA Today.
她说，这不仅仅是那个男孩倒着走上墙的问题。 She said, So it's not just that he's walking backwards up the wall.
你也不必只相信母亲或祖母的说法。 You don't just have to take Mom or Grandma's word for it.
那些因为听说他被邪灵附身而前来查看情况的人，也在官方报告里记录下这些事情。 The people who are checking on him because of these claims of demonic possession are writing about this stuff in official reports.
然后她引用了印第安纳州加里的警察队长查尔斯·奥斯丁 的话，他说这是他听过最怪异的事，他起初是怀疑的。 And then she quotes the police captain for Gary, Indiana, Charles Austin, saying it was the strangest story he'd ever heard, and he was initially skeptical.
当时他已经是警局三十六年的老资历，起初并不相信这些说法。 He's been a veteran of the police department for 36 years at this point, and he doesn't originally believe it.
他认为她一定是有什么动机，想靠这个事件来赚取金钱。 He thinks for some reason she must be trying to use this somehow to make money.
但在数次到那所房子查看后，他却开始相信了。我们也会看 到他之所以特别像被针对，并有充分理由让他相信的原因。 But after several visits to the home, he comes away a believer, and we're going to see some reasons why he in particular seemed to have been targeted and has good cause to come away a believer.
不过，她表示，并不是所有与这个家庭有关的人都愿相信如此不可思 议的说法，而且很多读者也会觉得阿蒙斯的超自然宣称难以接受。 But she says not everyone involved with the family was inclined to believe its incredible story, and many readers will find Ammon's supernatural claims impossible to accept.
我喜欢这样的表述，因为我认为这正切中了一个问题：如果你只是根据 证据来判断，如果这是其他类型的新闻报导——例如有人说发生了一场 骇人的屠杀，太令人难以想象了——我们通常都会倾向相信那是真的。 And I like that phrasing because I think it gets to that issue that if you're following this just on the evidence, if this was any other kind of news story, if someone said there's been a horrible massacre, it's unthinkable.
然而，现在却有警察、医务人员以及目击者等等，所有人都在见证同样的事情。 And yet here are these police officers and medical professionals and eyewitnesses and everything else who all attest to the same thing.
我们很可能会强烈倾向于相信那确实是真的。 We would be heavily inclined to believe that it was real.
可是一旦换成「这些孩子被邪灵附身」或「这座房子闹鬼」，我们就不愿意相信了。 But when it's instead these children were possessed by demons or this house is haunted, well then we don't want to believe it.
但这其实只是教条式地一概否定，并非基于对证据的评估。 But that's just an out-of-hand dismissal dogmatically, not an evaluation of the evidence.
所以我欣赏她所用的描述「难以接受」而不是「难以置信」或类似 说法，因为如果撇除偏见来看，这些宣称本身似乎还颇具说服力。 So I like that she calls it just impossible to accept, not hard to believe or anything like that, because the claims themselves, if you get rid of the bias, seem kind of compelling.
我们继续往下看。 Let's read on.
我不想操之过急。 I don't want to get ahead of myself.
她说，对不熟悉情况的人来说，儿童保护部门会在怀疑孩 子面临危险时介入，例如营养不良、虐待、忽视等状况。 She says, So for those of you not familiar, the Department of Child Services checks in on families if there's a reason to suspect a child may be in danger: malnutrition, abuse, neglect, those kind of things.
而在这件事里，孩子们说「我被邪灵附身了」，因此儿童保护部 门会介入，因为他们会怀疑这是家庭里某些情况导致的求助。 In this case, when you've got kids saying, 'I'm possessed by a demon,' DCS is going to get involved because they're wondering if this is a cry for help because of something going on in the home.
但是请注意，这里我很喜欢记者的说法：要么是邪灵附身，要么就是系统性的幻觉。 But notice here again, I really like the reporter's language that the options really are demonic possession or systematic delusion.
你不能单纯说「哦，妈妈疯了」或「外婆疯了」。 You can't just say, 'Oh, the mom's crazy' or 'the grandma's crazy.'
你也得说医生、一线医务人员、警察和儿童保护部门通通都疯了。 You also have to say the doctors are crazy and the medical professionals and the police are crazy and Department of Child Services.
所有人都疯了。 Everybody's crazy.
加里镇的每个人都疯了。 Everybody in Gary is just crazy.
当然，如果你愿意也可以这么说，但这可能性就很低。 Now you can do that if you want to, but it is less probable.
你必须把所有人都编进这个阴谋论里，好让它成为「不不不，那些 人看到的并不是真的，他们不是可靠的目击证人」的反驳解释。 Every person you have to add to the conspiracy to be able to pass it off as a counter-explanation to, 'No, no, the people saw what they saw and are reliable eyewitnesses.'
不过，再次说，我不想跑在结论前面。 But again, I don't want to get ahead of us.
正如马丽莎·克维亚托夫斯基指出，儿童保护部门、警方和医务 人员之间有将近八百页的官方记录，并且还访谈了十几位警官、 儿童保护部门人员、心理学家、家人以及一位公教会的祭司。 As Marissa Kwiatkowski points out, there's nearly 800 pages of official records between DCS and the police and medical professionals, and there have been more than a dozen interviews with police, DCS personnel, psychologists, family members, and a Catholic priest.
这意味着许多彼此不认识的人要毫无缘由地联手捏造故事，才能编出这一切。 That's a lot of people to be involved in fabrication for no apparent reason, people that don't know each other.
此外，她提到，这个家庭的故事更加离奇，是因为它牵涉到儿童保护部 门的干预、一连串心理评估、警方的调查，最终还发展到好几次赶鬼。 Furthermore, she says the family story is made only more bizarre because it involves a DCS intervention, a string of psychological evaluations, a police investigation, and ultimately a series of exorcisms.
我们会谈到其中若干内容。 We're going to talk about several of those things.
要知道，我在这里还没提供所有令人震惊的细节。 Just know I'm not even giving all the details from this pretty astonishing sort of story.
你可以在网上找到相关资料，但我想先从其中一个最难解释的细节开始说起。 You can find it online, but I wanted to start with one of the hardest to explain details.
这是来自外婆坎贝尔的说法。 This is from the grandma, Campbell.
她跑进卧室，十二岁的外孙女和一位朋友在里面，随后妈妈阿蒙和 外婆坎贝尔都说，这个十二岁的女孩昏迷不醒，且漂浮在床上方。 She runs into the bedroom, and her 12-year-old granddaughter and a friend are staying in there, and the mom, Ammon, and Campbell, the grandma, say the 12-year-old was levitating above the bed, unconscious.
就我所知，这个家庭是新教的，因此当他们面对明显带有超自然、邪灵性质的事情— —女儿在睡觉时悬浮——他们先联络了当地的新教教会，但多数教会都不愿理会。 Now, from what I can tell, this family is Protestant, and so their response to this pretty obviously supernatural, demonic sort of thing, the daughter's floating while asleep, is to reach out to their local Protestant churches, and most of them refuse to listen.
我认为，这正体现了现代人对超自然现象所抱持的偏见。 This is part of that modern bias against the supernatural that I think we see.
可是最终，他们得到的协助也不怎么可靠。 Eventually, though, you get some questionable sort of help.
据说有一间教会的人员告诉他们，卡罗莱纳街的那座房子里有灵体存在。 So we're told that officials at one church told them the Carolina Street house had spirits in it.
他们建议家人用漂白水和氨水清洗房子，然后用油在每扇门和窗上画上十字。 They recommend the family clean the home with bleach and ammonia, then use oil to draw crosses on every door and window.
我觉得好笑的是，他们知道圣油或祝福过的物品很重要，但却又 在用漂白水、氨水之类的方法做所谓的清理。这就是当有人摒弃 传统的基督信仰灵性手段，转而凭空创造新办法时的结果。 So I like that they're aware that holy oil is important or that blessed objects are important, but bleach and ammonia and all of this, this is what you get when you get rid of the traditional spiritual tools of Christianity and then just make new ones up.
这是一个更大的话题，但毋庸赘言的是，那些自 制的新教方案，在教会的建议下也没能奏效。 Now, that's a much bigger conversation, but needless to say, these kind of DIY Protestant solutions didn't work at the church's suggestion.
不过，阿蒙说，她将橄榄油倒在三个孩子的手和脚上，并在他们的额头抹上十字形的油。 Nevertheless, Ammon said she poured olive oil on her three children's hands and feet and smeared oil in the shape of crosses on their foreheads.
她形容说，这样做带来了一点短期缓解，但并不是彻底解决。 And so she describes getting some short-term relief, but not really.
后来又比之前更严重了，而她又得到更糟的建议。 It comes back worse than before, and then she gets worse advice.
她后来去找了两位自称能通灵的人，对方声称他们的屋子被两百多个邪灵围困，并 说这番解释在坎贝尔和阿蒙看来很合理，因为和她们的基督信仰似乎能搭得上。 She then reaches out to two clairvoyants who claim that the family's home was being besieged by more than 200 demons and were told this explanation made sense to Campbell and Ammon because it meshed with their Christian faith.
我只想在这儿提醒一句：千万别这么做。 And I just want to say here, don't do that.
不要去接触灵媒、通灵者、捉鬼者，或者那些玩弄神秘学却并没有属灵权柄的 人，他们往往是以一种轻率、危险，甚至是涉足炫弄巫术的方式来做这些事。 Don't mess around with mediums and psychics and ghost hunters and people who are playing around with the occult that don't have the spiritual authority to do so or are doing it in kind of a flip, dangerous, and even occult-ish black magic sort of way.
当然，有些人听到这里会想：「哇，你真是疯了。」 Now, some of you are going to hear that and just think, like, wow, you are a crazy person.
但不，其实若这些事情是真的，向其敞开大门是极度危险的。 But no, if this stuff is real at all, opening those doors to it is incredibly dangerous.
于是，这些尝试也不起作用。 So they also say this also doesn't work.
于是他们带孩子去看医生，想弄清楚情况。在那里，两个儿子——记 住，是两个男孩和一个女孩——用邪灵般的声音咒骂医生，怒斥他。 So then they take the kids to the doctor to see what's going on, and while they're there, the sons—remember, it's two boys and a girl—the sons curse the doctor in demonic voices, raging at him.
这还算能理解，你可以猜想或许孩子们只是刻意用恐吓的声音。 So fair enough, you can imagine, well, maybe the kids are just doing like a scary voice.
可是随后医护人员说，最小的男孩在没人碰他的情况下，被举起并摔到墙上。 But then medical staff said the youngest boy was lifted and thrown into the wall with nobody touching him.
这同样写在儿童保护部门的官方报告里。 And this is again in the official DCS report.
再强调一次，这并不只是母亲和外婆的一面之词。 And again, we're not just taking the mom and grandma's word for it.
我们有在诊所的医护人员，他们目击了这件事。 We have the people at the doctor's office, the medical staff, who witnessed this.
于是，此时有人打电话给儿童保护部门，他们想调查是否 存在家中疏忽或虐待的情况。说实话，这是正确的做法。 So at this point, somebody calls DCS, the Department of Child Services, and they want to find out if there's any neglect or abuse going on in the home, which, look, I applaud this.
这是个明智的举措。 This is a smart move.
或许这所有看上去像邪灵作祟的事情，与疏忽照顾或虐待有某种关联。 Maybe all of this demonic-seeming stuff is somehow related to neglect or abuse.
我也不知道疏忽和虐待怎么会导致人悬浮或孩子被撞到墙上，但至少得先按照流程来查。 I don't know how neglect or abuse gets to levitation or kids going and flying into the walls, but you want to do things the right way.
你总得核实一下以确保没问题。 You want to check to make sure.
因此，拨打儿童保护部门电话的人担心母亲有精神疾病，因为孩子们声 称自己被邪灵附身，所以他们认为母亲一定是在怂恿孩子们这么说。 And so the caller who calls into DCS is afraid that the mom has mental illness because the kids are claiming they have demons, so they're convinced that she must be encouraging them.
不管怎样，儿童保护部门指派了一位名叫瓦莱丽·华盛顿的家庭案件主管来调查此事。 So in any case, DCS assigns a family case manager by the name of Valerie Washington to investigate the case.
她在官方报告中写道，没有任何虐待迹象，孩子们看上 去很健康，没有疤痕或瘀青，而母亲似乎精神正常。 She writes up in her official report that there's no signs of abuse, the kids appear to be healthy, there's no marks or bruises, and the mom seems to be of sound mind.
随后，在华盛顿的报告里出现了更离奇的内容。 Then you get the weirder stuff in Washington's report.
她提到九岁的孩子露出一丝诡异的笑容，而护士也证实了这点。 She talks about how the nine-year-old had a weird grin, and this story is corroborated by the nurse.
那个九岁的孩子露出诡异的笑容，然后倒着走上墙壁抵达天花板。 The nine-year-old had a weird grin and walked backwards up a wall to the ceiling.
接着他翻过外婆坎贝尔，最后双脚着地。 He then flipped over Campbell, the grandma, landing on his feet.
他一直没有放开外婆的手。 He never let go of his grandmother's hand.
这真是相当惊人的情节，也难怪那位祭司先提到这件事。 So that's one of those really striking sort of claims that there's a reason the priest leads with that.
《印第安纳波利斯星报》的报道也是先从这里说起的，确有其理由。 There's a reason the Indianapolis Star story leads with that.
毕竟，让人看到一个孩子倒着走上墙壁，确实令人大为震惊。 Like, that is a shocking sort of thing, watching a kid walk up the wall backwards.
于是他们就此事访问了沃克女士。她说，他倒着走上墙，然后翻过她，稳稳地站在那里。 And so they interviewed Ms. Walker about this, and she said he walked up the wall, flipped over her, and stood there.
她说，绝不可能有人在正常情况下做到这种动作。 There's no way he could have done that.
后来，警方问华盛顿，这孩子是不是用跑的方式 上墙？也就是说，搞得好像是什么跑酷之类？ Now, later, police asked Washington whether he had run up the wall, you know, like, is this some sort of like parkour thing?
是某种杂技吗？ Acrobatic trick?
她说：「不，他是在地板、墙壁和天花板上倒退滑行。」 And she said, No, he glided backwards on the floor, wall, and ceiling.
这些内容全都在官方报告里写着。 This is all in the official report.
再说一次，这类内容在那几百页资料中比比皆是。 Again, you've got hundreds of pages of this stuff.
接下来还有更多。 There's more.
我想再给你一些其他细节的例子。 I want to give you just a couple other kind of details.
有一次，警察在房子里调查，在一楼百叶窗处发 现有类似油的东西滴落下来，却弄不清原因。 At one point, the officers are investigating the house, and on the main floor, they see from the Venetian blinds an oil-like substance, and they couldn't figure out why it was dripping.
也就是说，这种油状物是从哪儿来的，为何会透过百叶窗滴下来？ Like, where is this oil-like substance coming from that's dripping through the blinds?
所以，你懂的，也许是妈妈和外婆故意弄上去的，对吧？ And so, you know, maybe the mom and the grandma put it there, right?
毕竟之前有人建议她们在房子里到处洒油或奇怪的东西，所以合理猜测也许就是她们放的。 Like, earlier they were advised to put oil and weird stuff all over the house, so reasonable to think maybe they're the source of it.
因此，为了弄清事实，警方把那里清理干净后，就把那个房间监视了二十五分钟。 So just to make sure, the police clean it up and then guard the room for 25 minutes.
也就是说，房间被封锁了二十五分钟，警察站在旁边， 没有人进出，也就没人能偷偷进去，在百叶窗上倒油。 So the room's sealed for 25 minutes and stood nearby, so nobody's getting in and out of the room, so nobody's sneaking in there and just pouring oil for whatever reason on the Venetian blind.
可当他们再进去的时候，那油又出现了。 When they go back in, the oil has reappeared.
也就是说，不知从哪里又冒出油来，附着在这些百叶窗上。 So from somewhere, oil is materializing on these Venetian blinds.
这件事也是促使警方极为认真对待此案的原因之一。 This is one of those things that seem to be pretty influential in getting the police to take this extremely seriously.
但这还不止而已。 But there's more than that.
在与外婆坎贝尔谈话时，其中一名警官的录音设备出现故障。 During the interview with Campbell, again the grandma, one of the police officers' audio recorders malfunctions.
警方记录上说，录音机的电源灯闪烁，显示电池快没电 了，但实际上那位警官当天早些时候才刚换上新电池。 According to the police records, the power light flashed to indicate the batteries were dying, even though the officer had placed fresh batteries in the recorder earlier that day.
这很奇怪，说不上来是怎么回事。 Just kind of a weird sort of like, why is that happening?
当然，你也可以单独对这个证据做出解释。 And again, you can explain that piece of evidence away by itself.
「我才刚放了新电池怎么就没电了呢」这种情况还不算特别不可解释。 It's not nearly as hard to explain away, you know, I just put batteries in this and it's dying.
至少要比小孩漂浮或者倒着走上墙要更好解释些。 That's easier to explain away than a kid levitating or walking up a wall backwards.
不过，这件事还是让整体的离奇现象更显得连贯。 But it adds to a pretty coherent picture.
另外一位警官也录了音，回放时听到一个未知的声音低声说：「嘿，好诡异。」 Another officer recorded audio, and when he played it back, heard an unknown voice whispering, Hey, creepy.
这也是载于警方报告之中。 Again, from the police report.
那名警官还拍了房子的照片，在冲洗或查看时，发现右上角有一片白色的云雾状影像。 That officer also took photos of the house, and when he developed them, or when he looked at them, there was a cloudy white image in the upper right corner.
他们将照片放大后，发现那片云雾看起来像是一张脸。 When they enlarged the photo, the cloud appeared to resemble a face.
警方记录中说，进一步放大后还出现了另外一个 绿色的影像，警方表示看上去像是一位女性。 The police records say the enlargement also revealed a second green image that police say looked like a female.
所以，这并不是那种「当地人想减轻刑期而指证狱友」的情形。 So again, this is not like, Hey, the local guy trying to get his sentence lighter is testifying against his fellow inmate.
也不是那种你会说「哦，那个人有充分动机撒谎」的事。 This is not the kind of stuff where you say, Oh yeah, well that person has a really good motive to lie.
我真不知道警察有什么动机去编出这种离奇的故事。 I don't know what motive the police have to come up with this bizarre of a story.
更进一步说，警官奥斯丁队长表示，他用手机拍摄的照片里似乎也有奇怪的 剪影，而且他在开警局配发的福特车回家路上，车载无线电也出故障了。 But more than that, Captain Austin said the photos he snapped with his iPhone also seemed to have strange silhouettes, and the radio in his police-issued Ford malfunctioned on the way home.
他开车回家时收音机又不灵，之后到家里连车库门也 打不开，接着他自己的车里驾驶座还开始前后移动。 So he was driving home and the radio doesn't work, and later on he gets home and the garage door doesn't work, and then in his own car, the driver's seat starts to go back and forth.
于是我想他确实被吓到了，并认定这一切是真实的。 And so I think he's sufficiently spooked and is convinced that this is real.
我列举这些并不是为了断言一切都确实发生，而是说，这类事 件让人很可能会评估后觉得，比较有可能真的有邪灵在作祟。 So I give all this not to say this definitely happened, but to say this is the kind of case that I think someone could easily evaluate and say, Seems to me more probable than not that there's an actual demonic occurrence going on here.
如果有人教条式地一笔勾销，我真不理解缘由何在。 And someone dogmatically dismissing this, I don't understand why.
他们究竟是怎么得出那种判断的？ Where are they coming up with that?
也就是说，你凭什么就把所有这些信息全都扔掉？ Like, on what basis do you just throw all this information out?
大约在那篇最初报道发表九个月后，那名记者又写了一篇「报道背后的故事 」文章，解释她如何会写下这个报道，以及她面对了哪些体制上的反对。 So eventually, like nine months after the original report, the reporter has a kind of story behind the story piece where she explains how she ended up writing this story and the institutional objections that she faced.
她说：「我先说明，我的编辑们一开始持保留态度。 And she says this: Let me just say that my editors had reservations.
我们都不愿意发表一篇仅仅让人觉得博眼球、毫无实质内容的报道。 None of us was willing to publish a story that could be perceived as purely sensational and nothing more.
如果这篇报道没有呈现某种程度的质疑态度，就可能会破坏我们的公信力。 If the story did not include a level of skepticism, it could undermine our credibility.
我的编辑们想要有一个怀疑者的声音，而且不只 是随便找一个，而要找与这件事密切相关的人。 My editors wanted a skeptical voice, but not just any skeptical voice, someone close to the situation.
我也是这么想的。可问题在于，我找不到这样的人。 So did I. Problem was, I couldn't find one.
这本身就很能说明问题：几乎所有和此事关系密切的人都认定 这是真正的邪灵附身，不管他们的行业或受教育程度如何。 That is itself really telling that almost everyone who's close to this situation comes away convinced this is real demonic possession, regardless of their profession, regardless of their level of education.
后来，她终于找到两位抱持怀疑态度的临床心理学家， 他们觉得孩子们只是在装样子，而母亲是在怂恿他们。 Now eventually she finds two clinical psychologists who are dubious, who think that the kids are just performing and that the mom is putting them up to it.
这很合理，特别是当你只是在评估孩子的行为时。 And it's fine, especially if you're just evaluating the kids.
这完全说得过去。 It's totally reasonable.
心理学家不必对悬浮、倒着走上墙这些事做解释，因那超出了他们的专业范围。 The psychologist doesn't have to explain away the levitation, doesn't have to explain walking up the walls backwards, doesn't have to explain any of those things because that's outside of their purview.
我可以想见，若有人根本不相信邪灵这回事，对于孩 子显得像是邪灵作祟的举动，很容易就说那是假的。 And I'm sure a kid acting in a demonic way to someone who's not open to that possibility, it's just very easy to say this is just a fake.
也有可能确实如此。 And maybe it is.
同样地，身为一个基督徒，我也并不一定要相信它就是真的。 Again, as a Christian, I'm not required to believe this is real.
我个人比较倾向于说它是真的，但从证据上来说并没有硬性规定我必须这么想。 I'm inclined to say it's real, but nothing in the evidence forces me to that conclusion.
我想指出的是，她在做这个报道时遇到的第一个难题就是：几乎所有人都 相信这事件是真的，但如果不加入质疑的声音，她就无法把报道发出来。 So I just want to point out here that she is doing this story, and the first obstacle she hits is everyone thinks this thing happened, but I can't publish the story if we don't include somebody skeptical of it.
最终，她找到了两位持怀疑态度的人，但她也说，报道刊登后， 有些人（包括新闻界人士）批评《星报》写这篇文章的方式。 And so eventually she's able to find two skeptical people, but then she said that after it was published, some people, including in the journalism community, criticized the Star for the way the article was written.
他们觉得她应该采取「这些人都疯了」的立场去写。 They felt that she should have taken a these people are crazy point of view.
而她说，她特地以客观的方式写下来，不偏袒任何一方，让读者自行判断。 And she said, I deliberately wrote it straight, not supporting one side over the other, so people could come to their own conclusions.
也就是说，她并不是要当作什么万圣节特稿来处理，虽然 那篇「幕后故事」的文章确实是在万圣节那天发表的。 Like, she doesn't do it as like a fun Halloween feature, although this piece where she does the story behind the story was definitely released on Halloween.
但核心在于，这并不是「让我们佯装这些事是真的，然后再嘲笑那些当真人」的做法。 But the point is that it's not just like, Let's pretend this stuff is real for a day and then laugh at people who take it seriously.
她是真的在做新闻报导，却因为她用平日对待其他事件 的认真态度来处理这篇报道，而受到其他记者的批评。 She's actually doing reporting, and she's getting criticized by reporters for taking this seriously enough to report the way she would anything else.
她并不愿意说自己是否相信，但她确实表示，值得注意的是，她发表的许多细 节都来自与阿蒙案相关的官员写的法庭记录，而伪造此类记录是犯罪行为。 And she refuses to say whether she believes in it or not, but she does say it's worth noting that many of the details I published came from court records written by officials connected to Ammon's case, and to falsify such records is a crime.
正如一位官员说的，他和儿童保护部门的家庭案件主管 不会拿自己的职业前途去编造一个精心设计的骗局。 As one official put it, he and the DCS family case managers wouldn't toss their careers away to perpetuate an elaborate hoax.
所以我得说，我觉得她的看法完全合乎逻辑。 So I got to say, I think her take is completely sound.
这样的结论非常合理。 I think that is a very reasonable place to end up.
很难想象，会有一群利益受损无利可图的人合伙来进行这么一场系统性骗局。 It is difficult to see why you would have a systematic hoax being perpetrated by people who have a lot to lose, nothing to gain.
儿童保护部门并没有因此获益，医务人员或其他人也没有。 DCS is not getting any better, or the medical staff or anything.
没有谁会因为撒谎就能获得好处，但他们还是在为这些事情做见证。而 在一个把奇迹和超自然看作荒诞的世界里，这其实是很令人尴尬的事。 Nobody else is going to profit off of this by lying about it, and yet they're testifying to these things that are actually kind of embarrassing in a world that views miraculous and supernatural claims as silly.
用之前的例子来说，仿佛他们全都声称看到了精灵或看到了一个扁平的地球似的。 It's as if they all testified to seeing an elf or the flat earth, to use the earlier examples.
这些说法在职业生涯上不会给你带来好处。 Those kind of things are not going to help you professionally.
因此，他们明知会被有些人批评和嘲弄，却仍然如此投入地为这些事情做见证。 And so, at great expense to themselves, they're testifying to these things knowing that some people are going to criticize and lambast them.
而且去看看评论区的反应也很有意思。 And it was worth reading the comments.
现在你可能已经看不到那些留言了。 Now, I don't think you can actually read the comments anymore.
不管什么原因，《今日美国》和《印第安纳波利斯星报》都更新了各自的网站。 For whatever reason, USA Today and Indianapolis Star have updated their websites.
但在这篇报道最初发表时，我截取了一些读者的评论，想看无神论者会如何回应这则消息。 But back when this was originally written, I captured some of the comments of people who had read the articles to see, well, how would atheists respond to this?
因为我作为一个信仰者，会觉得这是个非常引人入胜的案例 ，我就想知道，立场和我不同的人会怎样分析这份证据？ Because as a believer, I'm saying this is a fascinating case, and I'm wanting to know how does someone with a different set of priorities than mine analyze evidence?
我看到一些评论，真的能充分看出他们的态度。 And I was struck by a couple of comments that really captured the kind of tone.
有个人说：「这是集体歇斯底里，就像那些玉米田里的传教士医治病人的方式一样。」 So one person said, Group hysteria, same way those cornfield preachers heal the sick.
然后他打上引号说：「这些虔诚的信徒们就是那么轻信。」 In quotation marks, Devout believers in their gullibility.
「没人是真的相信天上藏着一个留胡子的家伙，地下住着一个红色家伙，就能治好病。 Nobody's really cured in the belief there's a bearded guy hiding in the clouds and a red dude living under our feet.
他说的是「脚底下」。 He says feet.
这些轻信的人很容易就被煽动得愚蠢不堪。 Makes these gullible people easily swayed to stupidity.
注意到了吗？这就是却斯特顿所警示的那种极度居高临下的态度，仿佛所有人都是傻子。 So notice it's just this incredibly condescending attitude that Chesterton warns of, like everyone is dumb.
这些乡巴佬，那些所谓的玉米田传教士，拜托啊。 These hicks, these, you know, cornfield preachers, give me a break.
而此人却公开地说自己理解的基督信仰是：在云端藏着一个神，地下住着一个红色的恶魔。 You're the person going out there and saying publicly you understand Christianity to mean that there's a God is a guy hiding in the clouds and the devil is a red dude living under our feet.
这并不是任何成年基督徒对天堂和地狱的理解。 That is not any kind of adult Christian's understanding of heaven and hell.
我之所以提到这个，是想说人们也可以随便把它当作集体歇斯底里，但不太能理解某些人或 者怎会发表那种貌似带有种族偏见的评论，诸如「他们是吸食霹雳可卡因的人」之类的。 And so I mention that to say you can easily write off this as group hysterics, but it's really difficult to understand kind of how or why some people made what frankly seemed kind of racially charged comments about how they were probably crack smokers.
我不知道他们为什么会说可卡因，但，这真的是这样吗？ I don't know why they thought crack, but it's like, really?
难道警察也在吸可卡因，儿童保护部门的人、医院的人也都在吸？ So the police were smoking crack and the people at DCS and people at the hospital?
所以，我想说的就是，你不能只因为这样就对阿蒙和坎贝 尔不屑一顾，因为还有许多其他人见证他们说的是真话。 So all that's to say you can't just kind of look down your nose at Ammon and Campbell because there's a lot of other people testifying that they're telling the truth.
再给你看条评论：有人说：「这根本不可能发生 ，是的，我就是在说所有参与的人都在撒谎。」 One more comment from the comments: someone said, This never happened, and yes, I'm saying that everybody involved is lying.
我要指出，这就是荒诞的阴谋论。 And I just want to point out that that is a ridiculous kind of conspiracy theory.
如果有人相信这一点，那就和他们想象的事一样荒谬。 If you believe that, that is as absurd as the things that you think.
认为有邪灵还相对合理点；倒是如果你以为所有人都在参与大 型阴谋集体撒谎，那才是真正的「字面意义上的」阴谋论。 Believing in the demonic is akin to, like, if you think everybody is involved in this mass conspiracy to lie, that's literally what it is.
也就是毫无明显收益，却合谋捏造此事。 It's a conspiracy to lie about this fact for, again, no apparent gain.
得出这种结论实在是让人莫名其妙。 It's just what a baffling kind of conclusion to come to.
所以我提到这点，部分是想表示：如果你是一位正 在观看这个频道的无神论者，感谢你能看到这里。 And so I mention this partly to say, well, you know, if you're an atheist watching this channel, thank you for making it this far.
你会如何解释这些证据？ How would you square the evidence?
别只解释某些部分。 Don't just square some of it.
试着把相关参与人员都考虑进去：阿蒙、坎贝尔、医院的人、儿童保护部门的人 、警察们，然后想想看，有什么理由让他们每个人都在所有方面都搞错了吗？ Try to figure out all the different players involved: Ammon, Campbell, the folks at the hospital, the folks at DCS, the police officers, and then figure out, like, is there a reason all of them would be wrong about all of this?
而我还没提到那位祭司，他显然应该具备相当的可信度。 And I haven't even gotten into the priest, who obviously is a figure that should carry a certain amount of credibility.
让我们接下来谈谈他，看看这些邪灵方面的证据是如何支持公教会的观点。 So let's turn to him next and look at how the demonic evidence supports the Catholic claim.
接下来我要说的某些内容，对无神论者来说可能比对非公教的基督徒更加难接受。 Now, some of what I'm about to say is going to make less sense to an atheist than to a non-Catholic Christian.
到目前为止，我一直在强调一点：与无神论者相比，我认为 基督徒对于像阿蒙这样的案例有更清晰的解释现实的论据。 So hitherto, I've been focusing more on the fact that I think Christians have a much clearer argument to explain reality, like the Ammon's case, than atheists do.
而与其对超自然主张感到尴尬，不如认识到对于无神论者来说，这些现象更难解 释。如果把所有此类故事都说成错觉或谎言或别的什么，似乎很难自圆其说。 That rather than being ashamed of supernatural claims, that these are actually something that are much harder to explain away if you're an atheist than if you're a Christian, because it's implausible that all of these stories all the time would be delusions or lies or whatever.
即便其中有些的确不是事实，也不能由此推定所有类似案例都不是真的。 Even if some of them are, you can't extrapolate that to say all of them are.
但我觉得在基督徒中，往往被低估的一点是尤其公教会和公教会祭司所扮演的角色。 But what I think is underappreciated amongst Christians is the role of Catholics in particular, and especially Catholic priests.
在这里的例子中，那位祭司——还记得从百叶窗滴落下来的那种油状液体吗？ So the priest in this case, remember that liquid, that oily liquid that was dripping from the Venetian blinds?
他告诉警方，那种液体是某种超自然邪灵临在的表现。 He told the police that the liquid was a manifestation of a paranormal or demonic presence.
到了这步，他写报告给主教，请求允许他进行赶鬼。 And at this point, he writes a report to the bishop requesting permission to perform an exorcism.
有两件事需要知道。 And there's two things to know.
第一，据祭司说，这位主教在二十一年里从未批准过一次赶鬼仪式。 Number one, the bishop in 21 years had apparently not approved an exorcism, at least according to the priest.
第二，起先这位主教拒绝了。 And two, the bishop initially declined.
他不允许进行大赶鬼仪式。 He refused the ability to do a major exorcism.
因此，这位祭司只能先进行所谓的小型赶鬼，因为那不需要主教批准。 So the priest is able to do what's called a minor exorcism because you don't need episcopal approval for that.
但后来，他再度向主教请求，最终主教允许他为阿蒙，也就是那位母亲，进行赶鬼。 But after that, he then goes back to the bishop, and the bishop eventually gives him permission to perform an exorcism on Ammon's, on the mom.
报道里还有指明，这个仪式在形式上和小型赶鬼仪式 差不多，只不过因为获得公教会背书而力量更大。 And the article very helpfully actually notes that the ritual is actually the same as in a minor exorcism, but it's more powerful because it has the backing of the Catholic Church.
祭司就是这样解释的。 And this is the way the priest was explaining it.
最终，这位祭司总共进行了三次大规模赶鬼，其中两次用英文，一次用拉丁文。 Ultimately, the priest actually does three major exorcisms, two in English and then one in Latin.
而在那次用拉丁文的赶鬼后，事情就成功解决了。 And after the Latin one, it's successful.
我想从这当中可以提炼出很多东西。 Now, I think there's a lot you could take from that.
其中一点就是我最近也曾注意到的事。 One of the things you could take from that is something that I had remarked to me recently.
我有一位朋友，他从新教归依而来。他提到另一个朋友，那个朋友目前仍是新教牧师。 A friend of mine who's a convert from Protestantism was talking about another friend of his who is a Protestant pastor still.
这位朋友说，他对类似赶鬼的案例非常敬佩，如果他自己遇到类似情况，他会毫不犹豫地 把当事人转介给一位公教会的祭司，因为他承认自己身为新教牧师并没有那种属灵权柄。 And this friend of his had talked about his admiration for things like exorcism cases, that if he got something like this, he would not have any difficulty referring the person to a Catholic priest because he recognized they had a spiritual authority that he, as a Protestant pastor, didn't have.
而在这个故事里，没有任何新教牧师能帮上忙。 And in this story, none of the Protestant pastors are able to help.
他们要么不相信她，要么给出的建议并不好。 They either don't believe her or they offer bad advice.
公教会的祭司，即便进行了小型赶鬼，也没能奏效。 The Catholic priest, even with a minor exorcism, can't accomplish this.
必须要在教会的支持下进行大赶鬼才行。 It takes a major exorcism with the backing of the Church.
接着就有英文版与拉丁文版的区分了。 Now you get into the whole English versus Latin ones.
最后，拉丁文的大规模赶鬼发挥了效果。 The Latin major exorcism is the one that's ultimately effective.
你可以作何猜想都行，但这确实相当耐人寻味。 Make of that what you will, but it's pretty fascinating.
所以，我认为这事情在两个方面证明或至少佐证了公教会的立场。 So I think this proves the Catholic case, or at least supports the Catholic case, we'll say, in two ways.
第一，我们来看《路加福音》第十一章。耶稣从一个哑巴 身上赶出了邪灵，那人立刻开始说话，众人都感到惊奇。 Number one, we'll go to Luke 11. Jesus is casting out a demon from someone who's mute, and when the demon is cast out, the man speaks, and the people marvel.
但有人心存怀疑。 But there's some skepticism.
主要有两类怀疑态度。 There's two categories of skepticism.
有一群人说，祂靠鬼王别西卜赶鬼。 One group says he casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons.
这群人不否认邪灵的存在，却断定耶稣是倚靠邪灵的权柄行事。 They're fine with the demonic, but they're convinced he's using demonic authority to do this.
另一群人则说，要从天上显个神迹给我们看，好像对这是否真实还有些怀疑。 The other group says, Give us a sign from heaven, like they're a little skeptical seemingly of this even being real.
所以，这就出现了两种不同的质疑反应。 So you have kind of two skeptical responses.
一种说：「这不是真的。」 One says, This isn't real.
另一种说：「这是真的，只不过它本身就是邪灵的作为。」 The other says, This is real, but it's actually demonic.
而这也正是今天的人们对公教会赶鬼常有的两种解读。 And these are two of the reactions you get to Catholic exorcisms today.
有人会说：「这不是真的。」 You get the folks who say, That's not real.
他们认为这只是心理、精神或生理方面的问题。 You know, this is just a psychological thing or a mental health thing or a physical thing.
并不真的是灵性层面的。 It's not really a spiritual thing.
但也有人说：「是啊，赶鬼恰恰证明了公教会在搞什么邪恶之事。」 But then the other thing you get is you get people who say, Yeah, exorcisms are actually proof that the Catholic Church is doing evil stuff.
例如，「我们新教不做赶鬼，而你们公教会做赶鬼，因为你们和某些神秘论扯上关系。」 Like, we don't do exorcisms as Protestants, and you do as Catholics because you're messed up with the occult.
这个观点十分难以理解，因为在《路加福音》第十一章 里，耶稣回应说，每一个国若自相纷争，就必败落。 And that is a frankly baffling sort of position to take because in Luke 11, we see Jesus responding, Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste.
祂有点像是在引用亚伯拉罕·林肯的名言：「一个分裂的家必然无法存立。」 He's quoting Abraham Lincoln, A house divided against itself cannot stand.
我当然是在开玩笑，不过耶稣的确这么说了。 I'm just kidding about that, but he does.
所谓「自相纷争的国或自相纷争的家都要败落」，就是这个意思。 This is where the house divided kind of language comes from, that a kingdom divided against itself or a house divided against itself is laid to waste, doesn't stand.
「如果撒但自相纷争，他的国怎么还能站得住呢？」 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand?
「你们竟说我是靠别西卜赶鬼。」 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub.
「我若靠别西卜赶鬼，你们的子弟又是靠谁赶呢？」 If I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?
「这样，他们就要断定你们的是非。」 Therefore they shall be your judges.
接着就是我先前提到的那句话：「但我若靠着神的指头赶鬼，这就是神的国临到你们了。」 And then this line that I quoted earlier, But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
所以，若按照《路加福音》第十一章耶稣的推论，你就不能说公教会的祭司是坏的，或说 公教会的赶鬼是坏的。再来看另一种情境：我们观察到真正的邪恶时，也能做些应用。 So you can't say that the Catholic priesthood is evil or the Catholic exorcisms are evil without running afoul of Jesus' argument here in Luke 11. Now another way we could apply this is by looking at actual evil.
比方说，想想所谓的「黑色弥撒」。 So think about, for instance, black masses.
如果你知道的话，这些是一种撒但式的仪式，用来 嘲弄、歪曲弥撒，有时还会从弥撒里偷走圣体。 If you're familiar with these, these are these satanic rituals that mock and parody the Mass, and they'll sometimes steal the host from Mass.
他们会窃取圣餐饼作出极度亵渎的行为。 They'll steal the Eucharist and just perform unspeakable sacrilege.
撒但崇拜者痛恨公教这一事实，本身就强而有力地支 持了公教会的真实性，因为魔鬼不会试图赶出魔鬼。 The fact that Satanists don't like Catholicism is a tremendous argument in favor of Catholicism because the devil isn't trying to cast out the devil.
你无法在逻辑上既说弥撒是邪恶、是魔鬼的作为，又说撒但崇拜者莫名其妙地痛恨弥撒。 You can't logically say that the Mass is evil and a work of Satan and also be like, And Satanists hate it for some reason.
如果你明白耶稣那番话的逻辑，你就知道别西卜不会赶走自己。 Well, if you understand anything of what Jesus just said, Beelzebul is not driving himself out.
因此他若厌恶弥撒，正好证明弥撒是从神而来，而非出自魔鬼。 And so if he hates the Mass, that's a really good sign that the Mass is of God and not of the devil.
同样地，对于赶鬼，邪灵也必然讨厌。 Likewise, exorcisms, demons don't like those.
所以，这些都指向了公教会相关事物的真实与正确。 So those things point to the reality and the truth of these Catholic things.
这里还有一点要提：耶稣问了那句「你们的子弟又是靠谁赶鬼呢？」 Now, there's one more thing I didn't point out there because Jesus says, By whom do your own exorcists drive them out?
当时，犹太人也有过赶鬼的做法，虽然并不算普遍，但确实存在。 That there was this practice, not super common, but it did occur of Jewish exorcisms.
根据一些线索显示，甚至有人或许曾在所罗门的名义下进行赶鬼，这颇让人觉得有意思。 And we have some indication that there might have been exorcisms even in the name of Solomon, which is pretty fascinating.
但不管怎样，犹太赶鬼确实存在。 But in any case, there are these Jewish exorcisms.
我们也知道，在可见的教会范围之外，也有人进行赶鬼的情况。 We also know that there are exorcisms outside of the visible bounds of the Church.
这在《马可福音》第九章里曾引起争议：使徒约翰来见耶稣说：「老师， 我们看见有人奉你的名赶鬼，我们就禁止了他，因为他不与我们同行。」 And this becomes a point of contention that in Mark 9, St. John goes up to Jesus and says, Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him because he was not following us.
耶稣则回答说：「不要禁止他，因为没有人在我名里行异能 ，反倒能很快毁谤我；不敌挡我们的，就是帮助我们的。」 And Jesus' response, Do not forbid him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me, for he that is not against us is for us.
所以，身为公教徒，我们并不打算作出那种排他性的断言，认为在可 见的教会范围之外就绝对不存在任何灵性上的解脱或赶鬼之类的事。 So as Catholics, we don't want to take the exclusive claims that you can't have any sort of spiritual deliverance or exorcisms or anything like that outside of the visible bounds of the Church.
显然，哪怕在圣经时代就并非如此。 That clearly is not the case, even back in the times of the Bible.
不过，我还是想提醒一句，即使耶稣说了「不敌挡我们的，就是帮助 我们的」，祂在别处也说过「不和我们相合的，就是敌我们的」。 But I do want to suggest a note of caution because even though Jesus says, He who is not against us is with us, elsewhere he says, He who is not with us is against us.
我们需要在某处把这两种话语调和起来，因为它们本来就是要结合着读的。 That somewhere we have to harmonize those two sentiments that were clearly meant to be read kind of together.
于是，在《使徒行传》第十九章里，我们又听到关于犹太赶鬼者的记载。 And so in Acts 19, we hear about these Jewish exorcists again.
在《使徒行传》第十九章一开始，先提到圣人的遗物：神借圣保罗行了大能奇迹 ，甚至连他所用的手巾或围裙，人们拿去给病人，病就退了，邪灵也离开了。 So in Acts 19, we're first told about relics, which I alluded to earlier and which are related to but not squarely in the middle of this topic, that God is doing mighty miracles by the hands of St. Paul so that even his handkerchiefs and aprons were carried away from his body to the sick and diseases left them and evil spirits came out of them.
所以，遗物确实很具威力。 So relics are very powerful.
它们在身体与灵性的治愈上都非常重要。 They have important roles in both physical and spiritual healing.
这就是在《使徒行传》十九章十一到十二节的记载。如果你 所属的教会没有遗物，那就没有在实践早期使徒的做法。 That's right there in Acts 19:11 and 12. You should have relics, and if your church doesn't have relics, you're not following the early apostolic practice.
然后下一节提到：有一些流动的犹太传道者或赶鬼者，开始对被邪 灵附身的人宣称「我奉保罗所传的耶稣之名，命令你们出来」。 But then the next verse says, Some of the Jewish itinerant preachers or exorcists, excuse me, undertook to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, 'I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.'
有七个人这么做，结果并不顺利。 And so there are seven guys who are doing this, and it doesn't go well.
在《使徒行传》十九章十五节，那个邪灵回答说： 「耶稣我认识，保罗我也知道，你们却是谁呢？」 In Acts 19:15, an evil spirit answers him, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?
于是那被邪灵所附的人就扑到他们身上，胜过其中众 人，叫他们赤着身子受了伤，从那房子里逃出去。 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, mastered all of them, and overpowered them, so they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
我为什么要提到这些？ So why do I say all this?
我并不否定其他基督徒或许也有某种灵性权柄的可能性，但 很明显，与公教会祭司所拥有的权柄并不在同一个层次上。 That without denying the possibility that there can be some kind of spiritual authority that other Christians possess, it is clearly not to the same degree and to the same level that you're going to find in the Catholic priesthood.
我认为阿蒙的案例就充分说明了这一点。 And I think the Ammon's case amply demonstrates that.
事实上，我们得小心不要因此就说：「好，我要自己开始赶鬼、 斥责、驱逐邪灵」。因为在《犹大书》里并没有如此教导我们。 In fact, we want to be careful of coming away from this saying, I'm going to start driving out demons and rebuking them and casting them out, because that is not what we're actually told to do in the Epistle of Jude.
经文警告那些在异端教义中这么做的人。 He warns against heretics who take that position.
他说，这些人沉溺于妄想中，玷污肉身，轻看权柄，亵渎尊贵。 He says, In like manner, these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious law.
但天使长米迦勒与魔鬼争辩摩西尸体时，并没有用诽谤的话定罪他，只说：「主责备你。」 But when the archangel Michael contending with the devil disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you.'
换言之，如果你只是个普通基督徒，就诉诸自己名义来「 斥责你、赶走你」，《犹大书》实际上告诉你别那样做。 In other words, if you're saying, I rebuke you, I drive you out, I do all this stuff in your own name as a regular Christian, Jude is saying, Stop doing that.
你实际上没有那种权柄。 You don't actually have that authority.
他还说：「这些人毁谤他们所不明白的事；他们所本能 领会的事，与畜类一样，在这事上竟败坏了自己。」 And he says, These men revile whatever they do not understand, and by those things that they know by instinct, as irrational animals do, they are destroyed.
也就是说，这真的很不妙。 Like, this is bad.
如果你私自揽下这种权柄，在灵性层面是相当危险的。 This is spiritually a dangerous place to be if you have arrogated this authority to yourself.
这并不是你的权柄。 This is not your authority.
我们也看到了小型赶鬼和大规模赶鬼之间的差异：后者需要教会的核准。 And we even saw the difference between the minor exorcism and the major one, which needed the approval of the Church.
这并不仅仅是祭司个人在驱赶邪灵，而犹太赶鬼者即便奉 保罗之名也无法赶出邪灵，这正好进一步说明了问题。 That this is not just the priest as an individual driving out demons, and the Jewish exorcists who even calling on the name of Paul were unable to drive out demons are further witness to this.
所以我想给出这样的提醒和警示。 So I want to give that as kind of a word of warning and caution.
说到这里，我们该如何看待邪灵呢？ So with that said, how should we consider the demonic?
有三个基本要点可供借鉴。 Three basic takeaways.
第一，不要盲目相信所有声称的奇迹、鬼附、人被邪灵缠身或赶鬼等等事件。 Number one, don't blindly believe every purported miracle or possession, ghost, or exorcism, etc.,
但也要对其中一些确实可能为真持开放态度。 but be open to the fact that some of them are real.
不要盲目地一律反对，也不要盲目地一概接受。 Don't be blindly opposed to all of them, just like you wouldn't want to blindly accept all of them.
第二，这些灵性现象昭示神的国在世上已然临在。 Number two, these spiritual realities point to the presence of the Kingdom of God on earth.
要记得，神就与我们同在，而邪灵的实在性也与神相对立。 Remember, the figure of God is among us, and the reality of both God and demonic forces is opposed to Him.
若没有魔鬼，就不会有邪灵附身；但若承认有魔鬼，那么神也必然存在。 You can't have possession without having the devil, and you can't have the devil without having God.
所以，神允许这些情形存在，某种程度上恰是一种对祂自己的见证。 So the reason God allows these things to exist seemingly is in part because they are in fact a witness to Him.
第三，赶鬼指向公教会祭司职的真实性，就像黑色弥撒反证了真实的弥撒。 Third, exorcisms point to the reality of the Catholic priesthood, just as black masses point to the reality of the Mass.
这不仅仅是泛泛而谈的对神的信仰，而是更具体地展现了对祭司职及弥撒的信赖。 That it's not just that we have a belief in God in a generic sense, but we're further given some light to believe in the priesthood and the Mass.
最后，我想用《腓立比书》第四章的一段经文来作结： 我们不该以一种不健康的方式对这些事情过分着迷。 But then the final thing I would leave you with is one of my favorite passages from Philippians 4. We don't want to obsess about this stuff in an unhealthy sort of way.
圣保罗说：「弟兄们，无论什么是真实的、可敬的、公义的、清洁的、可爱 的、有美名的，若有什么德行，若有什么称赞，这些事你们都要思念。」 St. Paul says, Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
确实，我们可以过度地关注邪灵、邪恶以及罪恶。 Like, it is possible to become overly fixated on the demonic and the evil and the wicked.
这在世俗层面也一样成立。 That's true in a secular sense.
你可以沉溺于世界上所有的坏消息，在灵性的层面也一样如此。 You can just obsess with all the bad news going on in the world, and it's true in a spiritual sense.
你也可以盯着所有在世上出现的超自然邪恶。 You can look at all the supernatural evil in the world.
但我建议，这对你的身心并不健康。 I would suggest that's not healthy for you.
要专注于真、善与美，因为那才是你的最终归宿：与真善美 的神相结合，而不是把时间都耗在注视魔鬼及其作为上。 Fixate on the true, the good, and the beautiful, because that is your ultimate destiny: to be in union with God, who is true, good, and beautiful, not to spend your time gazing upon the devil and his works.
我希望这些内容能对你有所帮助。 I hope that helps.
无论你现在灵命如何，我也希望这能给你一些思考的空间。 I hope it's given you something to chew on wherever you are in your spiritual journey.
我十分想知道你的想法，欢迎在下面留言。 I'm very interested in what you have to say, so please jump in the comments below.
我非常感谢大家的评论，也会尽力去阅读和跟进。 I really appreciate the comments, and I do my best to read them and kind of follow them.
我是乔·赫施迈尔，以上是来自「无耻教皇党」的分享。 For Shannon's Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
愿神赐福给你。 God bless you.