好，史蒂夫，非常感谢你今天来参加我的节目。 Well, Steve, thank you so much for joining me on the show here today.
当然！ Absolutely!
谢谢你邀请我上节目，奥斯汀。 Thanks, Austin, for having me on the show.
这完全是我的荣幸。 It is absolutely my pleasure.
我很早就接触过你的作品，这次采访一直在我脑海中盘旋。 I came across your work a good while ago, and it's been one of those interviews that I've been kicking around in my head for a bit.
我很高兴我们今天能在这里进行。 I'm glad that we were able to do it here today.
我们要谈谈一些公教会历史的神话，但我想先以一种了解你的方式开始。 So, we're going to be talking a little bit about some myths of Catholic history, but I want to start kind of just in a getting-to-know-you way.
出于好奇，你在公教会历史上写了很多，并特别关注一些可能被认为是最棘手的领域。 Out of curiosity, I mean, you've written very extensively on Church history, and you've given kind of special attention to some of the areas that might be perceived as like the roughest areas.
我们今天会讨论其中几个。 We're going to get into a couple of those today.
我们刚才谈到你即将出版的一本书，也是围绕这个主题的变奏。 We were actually just talking about a forthcoming book for you that is kind of variations on that theme.
我很好奇是什么特别吸引你从事这项工作。 I'd be curious what draws you to this work specifically.
这是个好问题。 That's a great question.
多年前，我读了一些公教会历史学家黛安·莫查的作品。 I mean, you know, years and years ago now, I read some works by Diane Moczar, who is a Catholic historian.
她也是以这种方式写作的，我发现这些书在当时非常独特。 She wrote in this vein as well, and I found that they were very unique books at the time.
我想，大概是九十年代吧——九十年代初到中期，甚至可能是九十年代末。 I mean, we're talking, geez, the '90s, I guess—mid to early to mid-'90s, maybe even late '90s.
我想她的一些作品就是那时出版的。 I think some of her works came out.
她写了几本书，一本叫《公教会历史的七个谎言》，另一本叫 《每个天主教徒都应该知道的十个日期》，类似这样的书。 But she wrote several books, one titled Seven Lies About Catholic History and another Ten Dates That Every Catholic Should Know, these kinds of things.
当我读她的书时，你知道，是面向大众的，从公教会的视角讲述历史。 When I read her books, you know, geared for a popular audience, they were history from a Catholic perspective.
我想，既然她的作品已经是多年前的事了，这是一个有趣的小众领域 ，我可以把我对历史的热爱带出来，与整个教会的更多大众分享。 I thought that since her works had been many years ago, that was an interesting kind of niche area that I could bring forth my love of history and share that with a more popular audience throughout the Church.
所以，这就是我走上这种揭穿神话或公教会历史呈现的写作道路的原因。 So, that's really what kind of took me on that path of writing in this specific kind of myth-busting or Catholic presentation of history arena.
嗯，这是阅读公教会历史的一种非常吸引人的方式，我想，看我视频的大 多数人可能不需要鼓励就会喜欢这些，因为他们本来就喜欢这类东西。 Well, it's a very engaging way to read Church history, and I think, you know, most of the people that watch my videos won't be the type of people that maybe need the encouragement to get into this because, you know, they love this kind of stuff.
他们用空闲时间观看一个小时的公教会历史视频，对吧？ They're using their free time to watch an hour-long video on Church history, right?
但我想，对于许多其他人来说，他们可能会觉得，这听起来像个催眠大会！ But I think for so many others who might think, That sounds like a snooze fest!
我为什么要读一本公教会历史的书？ Why would I read a book on Church history?—coming
从这个角度，你以为是这样，其实是那样——这可能是一种让人放下戒心的方式。 from this angle of, you know, you thought it might be like this, but actually it's like this—could be a kind of disarming way to get into it.
所以，我很欣赏你在这方面的工作。 So, I appreciate what you do with that.
今天，我想聚焦于你的书《公教会历史的真实故事》 ，你在其中揭穿了关于教会的二十个世纪的神话。 Today, I want to focus on your book The Real Story of Catholic History, where you debunk 20 centuries of myths about the Church.
我想我们来回讨论过，总共有55个神话，真是很多。 I think we were going back and forth; it's like 55 myths total in there, which is a whole lot.
我想二十个世纪确实有很多内容要覆盖。 I guess 20 centuries is a lot of time to go over.
在我们进入具体内容之前，今天我们要特别关注 中世纪，因为我认为那是一个常被误解的领域。 Before we kind of get into the specifics, today we're going to be focusing specifically on the medieval period because I think that's an often misunderstood area.
但我想问，总的来说，当你从事这项工作时——你已 经做了很长时间——你对这些神话的来源有感觉吗？ But I want to ask, just in general, as you're doing this work—and you've been doing it for some time now—do you have a sense of where these myths come from?
是否常常有一些真实的内核，但后来被扭曲或引向不同的方向？ Is it the case that there's often maybe like a kernel of truth, but then it gets distorted or taken in a different direction?
还是说完全是捏造的？ Or is it just like fabrications through and through?
这些神话大多是凭空出现的吗？ You know, for the most part, are these myths just coming out of nowhere?
也许是混合的，但我很好奇你看到的一些趋势。 Perhaps it's a mix, but I'd be curious what are some of the trends you see.
是的，我认为关于这些神话的起源，这是个有趣的问题。 Yeah, I think that's an interesting question in terms of the origins of some of these myths.
我认为，其中许多神话有相同的起源，通常来自某些批评者，甚至可以说是教会的敌人 ，尤其是公教会的敌人，或者更广泛地说，是宗教的敌人，特别是基督信仰的敌人。 Many of them, I think, share the same kind of origin story, if you will, in terms of they’re usually derived from or come from some critic—or, you know, it goes so far in some cases to say enemies of the Church, the Catholic Church, you know, generally, but also religion, or I guess specifically in religion generally, especially the Christian faith more broadly.
我认为，每个历史时期都会根据对教会或基督信仰怀有敌意的 群体，产生自己的神话或对历史事件和人物的误解或歪曲。 I think each time period in history comes up with its own kinds of myths or presentations or misrepresentations of history and historical events and persons, depending on the group that has an animus against the Church or against the Christian faith in general.
其中一些神话进入了流行文学，比如书籍、故事或小说。 Some of those myths then find themselves into popular literature—books, for example, you know, popular stories or popular works of fiction.
很多时候，它们进入了媒体呈现——电影和其他东西。 Many times, they find themselves into media presentations—movies and other things.
坦率地说，有些甚至在学术界被教授。 Some, frankly, are even taught within academia.
我可以告诉你，我在大学时学到的许多东西，后来发现并不准确。 I mean, I could tell you the many things that I learned as an undergrad that I have now found out later were not accurate.
人们并不一定是故意歪曲教会历史事件或人物。 It’s not necessarily that people misrepresent the events or persons of Church history purposefully.
我认为在某些情况下确实如此，但在许多情况下——我认为 在大多数情况下——人们只是重复他们听到或学到的东西。 I think in some cases that is true, but in many cases—and I think in most cases—it’s just people repeating what they have heard or what they have been taught.
有时，这是基于某一主题的现有学术研究，然后有学者以不同的视角或方 式看待信息或文件，甚至偶尔发现一些人们以前不知道的新文件或手稿。 Sometimes that’s based on whatever the available academic research is on a certain subject, and then along comes a scholar who looks at information or documents in a different light or a different way, or even rarely uncovers some new document or manuscript that people weren’t aware of before.
但更多时候，是我们已知的手稿或文件，现在以不同的方式看待，或用于回答不同的问题。 But more often than not, it’s manuscripts or documents that we know of but are now looked at in a different way or looked into to answer a different question than they had previously been used for.
这就改变了这些材料的呈现和理解方式，或对其提出挑战。 Then that changes how that material is presented and understood or is challenged.
我认为在这些领域有很多进步。 I think there’s a lot of growth in these areas.
所以，这不一定总是恶意的，尽管我确实认为在某些情况下是这样的。 So, it’s not necessarily always nefarious, although I do think in some cases that is true.
但总的来说，这只是人们对教会信仰的一种批评， 然后他们发现某个主题、历史或人物的有趣之处。 But generally speaking, it’s just, again, people with some form of criticism of the faith of the Church, and then they find something interesting about a particular topic or history or a certain person.
这些东西被教授和重复，许多人听到后就不知道其他的了。 It’s just taught and repeated, and many people just hear it, and then they don’t know any different.
这对我来说其实是很有趣的工作，因为当我在堂区或活动中演讲，或者有人说他们读了 我的书时，他们会来对我说，哦，我以前从不知道这些，这对我来说是很大的鼓励。 It’s actually fascinating work for me because when I give talks in parishes or events or whatnot, or when people say they’ve read my books, it’s encouraging for me that they will come and say, Oh, I never knew that before.
我从未从那个角度看过，或者我一直以为是X——填空。 I've never seen it from that perspective, or I always thought X—fill in the blank.
然后，给他们新的视角是令人欣慰的。 And then, you know, to give them that new perspective is gratifying.
我相信是这样的，尤其是那种「哇，我从没这样看过，你帮我学到了新东西」的感觉。 I'm sure it is, especially that idea of, Man, I never looked at it in this way, and You've helped me learn something new.
我想，对于任何以某种方式教学的人——无论是通过视频、 书籍，还是在传统课堂上——这都是人们想听到的反馈。 I think, you know, for anyone that teaches in some capacity—whether it's through videos, books, or in traditional classrooms—that's the kind of feedback that people want to hear.
所以，我很高兴你有这样的经历。 So, I'm glad that that's been the case for you.
这有点即兴，但我很好奇：你注意到其中有什么趋势吗？ This is a bit off the cuff here, but I'd just be curious: have you noticed any trends within that?
你提到有各种不同的来源。 I mean, you mentioned there are all these different sources.
我在想，以前我们有像杰克·奇克的小册子，对吧？ I'm thinking in terms of, you know, in days gone by, we had like the Jack Chick tracts, right?
今天似乎少了。 Which seems to be less so today.
我觉得他的受欢迎程度下降了，对吧？ I feel like he's waned in popularity, right?
你知道，那种把公教会说成巴比伦大淫妇的方式。 You know, kind of the approach of the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.
就像我们已经削减了这种，你知道，适合放在小册子里的那种论点。 Like, we've cut this, you know, like the types of arguments that fit in little booklets that are, you know, about that big.
但你现在看到的趋势是什么呢？无论是人们关注的 话题，还是现在真正热门的东西，或者某种方法？ But are there trends you're seeing now that are kind of maybe—whether it's the topics that people are going to—that this is kind of the really buzzed thing right now, or kind of approaches?
我很好奇，随着你在这方面的工作并看到它的发展 ，你是否看到现在有些东西比过去更多地出现？ I'd just be curious, as you've worked in this and seen it evolve, is there something that you see kind of coming up more now than perhaps it used to?
是的，你提到了杰克·奇克。 Yeah, that's—you know, so you mentioned Jack Chick.
我在西德克萨斯州度过了一部分时间，那时我是天主教徒 ，但你知道，那些小册子在当时的那个地区非常流行。 I mean, I grew up in at least part of my time in West Texas, so I was Catholic then, but you know, those were very prevalent documents in that area of the country at the time.
我不知道它们是否仍然流行；我已经很久没回过西德克萨斯了。 I don't know if they still are; I haven't been back to West Texas in forever.
但我同意你的看法。 But I agree with you.
我认为你的评估是正确的，那种非常极端、咄咄逼人的批评不再像过去那样普遍。 I think your assessment that, you know, those kinds of very just polemic, you know, over-the-top, in-your-face kind of criticisms are not as prevalent as they used to be.
对我来说，我看到的一些东西更微妙。 For me, some of the things I see are more nuanced.
有很多——尤其是在我关注的领域——你会看到很多，比如在学术界。 There’s a lot—especially in the areas that I focus on—you see a lot of, like, in academia.
过去我们在大学或更早时学到的某些神话，学术界肯定不再认同或坚持。 There’s definitely no longer an agreement or a holding on to certain myths of the past that we may have been taught as undergrads or before.
这些主题已经进入了我们稍后要讨论的十字军东征，这是一个 在过去一代人左右的时间里学术研究大幅增长的具体领域。 The subject matters have moved into a crusade that we’re going to talk about later, but that’s one specific area where there’s just been a growth of an amazing amount of scholarship over the last generation or so.
但这种理解并没有真正传达到更广泛的公众。 But that understanding hasn’t really filtered to a more popular audience.
所以，你在对某个事件或历史时期有粗浅了解的人中看 到的，仍然根植于六十年前、五十年前的学术呈现。 So, what you see among people who have kind of a cursory knowledge of an event or a historical time period is still rooted in what was kind of the academic presentation 60 years ago, 50 years ago.
这就是我看到的趋势，无论是基督徒、天主教徒，还 是其他好的历史学家，对某个历史时期都有理解。 That’s kind of the trend I see, where good historians—whether they’re Christian, Catholic, or not—doesn’t matter, have an understanding of a certain historical time period.
但这种理解没有反映在大众理解中，大众理解还没有跟上。 But then that understanding is not reflected in the popular understanding, which hasn’t caught up to it.
这就是我经常遇到的：三十、四十年前受过教育的人——无论他们 最后一次正规教育是什么时候，二十年前——他们坚持那个叙述。 That’s what I run into an awful lot: people who were taught something 30, 40 years ago—whenever their last formal education was, 20 years ago—and they hold on to that narrative.
但由于过去四、五十年的一些良好学术研究，这个 叙述已经发生了实质性变化，而他们从未听说过。 But the narrative has substantially changed because of some good academic research over the last 40, 50 years, and they’ve never heard it.
在任何媒体呈现或任何电影或纪录片中，都没有以这种方式呈现给他们。 It’s not just been presented to them that way in any kind of media presentation or any kind of movie or documentary, even.
我认为部分原因是这些旧神话真的很耸人听闻。 Part of it, I think, is because some of these older myths are really sensational.
而且，你知道，人们喜欢其中的淫秽和耸人听闻。 And they're, you know, people like the salaciousness of it and the sensationalism of it.
有时真实的历史——我总是觉得有趣——但有时一个故事或叙述可能比真实版本更有趣。 Sometimes real history—I mean, I find it always interesting—but sometimes you have a story or narrative that is maybe more fun than the real version.
所以，是的，有时虚构的版本更适合拍成电影，对吧？ So, yeah, it does strike me that at times the made-up version makes for a better movie, right?
比如，《达芬奇密码》关于圣经正典的故事可能比真实的正典故事更有趣。 Like, the Da Vinci Code story of the canon is probably more entertaining, perhaps, than the real story of the canon.
我认为这与我们今天要谈论的许多发生在教会历史稍后时期的事情有关。 I think that goes along with a lot of the things that we're going to talk about today that happen a little later in Church history.
我想你提到了围绕事物的叙述，我想首先看的是一种叙 述本身就融入术语中的情况，那就是「黑暗时代」。 I think you mentioned kind of the narratives that surround things, and the first kind of idea I want to look at is something where the narrative is baked into the terminology itself, and that is the Dark Ages.
所以，我们把罗马帝国灭亡后的这段时期称为黑暗时代，这就带有所有关于 这段时期的背景假设——特别是，嗯，其中没有多少光明，而是有点落后。 So, we've come to refer to this period of time after the fall of Rome as the Dark Ages, which kind of loads all of these background assumptions about what this period was—particularly that, well, there wasn't a lot of light in it, but it was kind of backwards.
我们有古代异教社会的高峰，然后一切都走下坡路，直到文艺复兴或类似的事情。 We had this kind of peak of ancient pagan society, and then it all kind of goes down until we get to the Renaissance or something like that.
但我很好奇，你知道，在一开始——我知道你写过一本关于这方面的书— —但当人们谈论黑暗时代并有我刚才说的那种假设时，他们错过了什么？ But I'd be curious, you know, at the very outset—and I know you've written a whole book on this—but when people talk about the Dark Ages and they kind of have that assumption that I just laid out, what are they missing?
他们忽略了什么？ What are they overlooking with that?
今天的视频由Logos赞助。 Today's video is sponsored by Logos.
Logos是一款在线圣经软件工具，从根本上改变了我阅读圣 经的方式，它甚至帮助我做出了我生命中最大的神学决定之一。 Logos is an online Bible software tool that fundamentally changed the way I read Scripture, and it even helped me make one of the biggest theological decisions of my life.
几年前我攻读神学学位时第一次接触Logos， 我可以真诚地说，没有它我不知道如何完成学位。 I first came across Logos a few years ago when I was studying for my theology degree, and I can truly say I don't know how I would have gotten through my degree without it.
它使深入的词语研究、神学研究或圣经释经研究变 得更快更容易，帮助你在更深层次上与经文互动。 It makes in-depth word studies or theological studies or kind of exegetical studies of Scripture so much faster and so much easier, and it helps you engage with the text on deeper levels.
但你不必是学者也能从Logos中获益良多。 But you don't have to be an academic to get a lot out of Logos.
你可以只是带领一个本地查经班，想要多了解一些背景——也许想知 道希腊文的意思而不必真正懂希腊文——或者只是为了个人学习。 You can be just leading a local Bible study, and you want to go in armed with a little more context—maybe to get some ideas of what's going on in the Greek without actually knowing—or maybe you just want to do it for your own personal study.
事实上，当我个人在思考约翰福音第六章的意义时，我求助于L ogos，借此我能比自己单独研究更深入地理解这段经文。 In fact, when I was wrestling personally through what John 6 means, I turned to Logos, and in that, I was able to go deeper into the passage than I ever would have been able to on my own.
我就是这样做的：我会查看经文，当然，你可以阅读经文。 Here's how I did it: I would go to the text, and of course, you can read the text.
在我看来，仅凭经文——我可以有两种理解；也许是字面的，也许是比喻的。 In my opinion, the text alone—I could go either way; maybe it's literal, maybe it's metaphorical.
但后来我开始查看一些注释。 But then I began looking at some commentaries.
所以，我调出了D.A.卡森的注释；我可以把它放在经文旁边，看看他怎么说。 So, I pulled up D.A. Carson; I could just have it up right next to the text and see what he had to say.
然后，我调出一些天主教的注释，看看他们怎么说。 Now, I'd pull up some Catholic commentaries to see what they had to say.
但接下来——这就是有趣的地方——我可以回到希腊文，回到教父们的著作。 But then—and this is where it gets really interesting—I could go back to the Greek, and I could go back to the Church Fathers.
例如，我可以双击「吃我的肉」中的「吃」字，看到希腊文是trogo。 For instance, I could just double-click on the word feed or eat in my flesh and see that the Greek word here is trogo.
哦，真有趣！ Oh, really interesting!
这有非常直观的含义，指向字面意义。 That has a very visceral connotation to it, which points towards the literal side.
但真正让我震惊的是能链接到教父们对此的所有论述。 But then the real kicker for me was being able to link to all of what the Church Fathers said on this.
这简直太疯狂了！ It's absolutely insane!
在过去，你得花一辈子时间才能做到，但现在一切都在眼前，你只需点击。 Back in the day, you would have had to spend a lifetime to do this, but now all of it's right there; you just click.
好吧，屈梭多模圣约翰对此怎么说？ Okay, so what does St. John Chrysostom say on this?
哦，有趣！ Oh, interesting!
或者安布罗斯怎么说？ Or what does Ambrose say?
或者巴西尔圣人怎么说？ Or St. Basil?
突然间，我感到震惊，说：「哇！」 And all of a sudden, I was overwhelmed, saying, Wow!
能看到希腊文背景，看到当今最好的学术研究，看到教父 们对此的论述，我得出结论：基督确实在圣餐中临在。 Being able to see the Greek context, being able to see the best scholarship today, and being able to see what the Church Fathers have to say about this, I came to the conclusion that Christ really is present in the Eucharist.
这种程度的研究只有通过Logos才能实现。 That level of study was only made possible by Logos.
这说实话只是冰山一角。 That's honestly only the tip of the iceberg.
所以，如果你想使用Logos，想要加深你的圣经研究，我在下面的描述中有一些链接。 So, if you want to get into Logos, if you want to deepen your Bible study, I've got some links in the description down below.
你可以使用为天主教徒、东正教徒或新教徒设置的套餐——无论你想 要更多的教父著作、训导文件，还是其他——你都可以在其中看到。 You can use packages that are set up for Catholics, for Orthodox, or for Protestants—whether you want kind of more Church Fathers, magisterial documents, whatever—you can see it all in there.
如果你使用这些链接——请务必使用——你会得到折扣，比平时更便宜。 And if you use those links—and please do—you will get a discount that will make it cheaper than otherwise.
你不仅会得到很好的折扣，我也会得到一些支持。 Not only will you get a great discount, but I'll get some support from that as well.
所以，如果你想要任何东西九折，或者他们的一 些主要套餐更大的折扣，请使用描述中的链接。 So, if you want 10% off anything there, or even more off some of their main packages, use the links down in the description.
好，谢谢！ Well, thanks!
希望你喜欢。 I hope you enjoy it.
是的，他们错过了很多，不是吗？ Yeah, they’re missing quite a lot, right?
我意思是，「黑暗时代」这个词符合我们刚才谈到的许多 事情，因为它是一个耸人听闻的、情感化的词，对吧？ I mean, that term Dark Ages fits into many of the things we just talked about right before, in terms of it being a sensational, you know, kind of emotive term to use, right?
它符合许多好莱坞对中世纪背景电影的呈现。 It fits with a lot of, you know, Hollywood presentations of any movie set in the medieval period.
你知道，通常是黑暗的——灯光昏暗，服装阴暗。 You know, it's usually dark—there's dark lighting, there’s dark costuming.
总是泥泞不堪；总是下雨。 It's always muddy; it's always raining.
我的意思是，很多这些电影发生在英格兰，所以，也许那里确实常下雨。 I mean, a lot of these movies take place in England, so, you know, sure, maybe it rains a lot there.
但好吧，你知道，到处是泥泞、暴力和鲜血，人们粗野无礼，每个人都像 在文艺复兴集市上那样拿着火鸡腿走来走去，餐桌礼仪差，这样那样的。 But okay, you know, mud and violence and blood everywhere, and people were uncouth, and everybody's walking around with a turkey leg like in the Renaissance Faire, and what have you, with bad table manners and this and that.
所以，有这样一种情感化、唤起回忆的形象，描绘当时 的生活，我们错过了那时期的大量实质性内容，对吧？ So, there's this emotive, evocative image of what life was like back then, and we miss substantial amounts of things about that period, right?
我意思是，我们忘记了中世纪是一个时期——甚至是所谓的 黑暗时代——学术界对如何确定年代和划分时期存在争论。 I mean, we forget that the Middle Ages were a period of time—or even the so-called Dark Ages—and there's debate within the academic community as to how we date things and how we classify things as time periods.
今天任何有勇气的历史学家都不会使用「黑暗时代」这个词。 No historian today of any mettle is going to use the term Dark Ages.
它仍在大众环境中使用，但在学术环境中完全不再使用。 It's still used in a popular setting, but not at all in the academic setting anymore.
所以，这回到我之前谈到的：你在学术界看到许 多事情已经向前发展，但大众领域还没有跟上。 So, this kind of falls back to what I was talking about earlier: how you see a lot of these things in the academic world now that have moved forward, but the popular area hasn't caught up to it yet.
但我们错过了像议会民主这样的东西，对吧？ But so, we're missing things like, you know, parliamentary democracy, right?
这是中世纪的创造。 It's a creation of the Middle Ages.
大学制度是中世纪的创造，对吧？ The university system is a creation of the medieval period, right?
建筑和不同风格的建筑艺术有大量发展。 Massive amounts of growth in architecture and different styles of architecture and art.
我甚至可以说这些是比较明显的，但我认为我们在理解这一时期时真正错 过的一个领域是对教会和国家关系的理解，尤其是在西方世界，对吧？ I would even go so far as to say those are kind of the more obvious ones, but one area I think that we really do miss in our understanding of this period is an understanding of the relationship between Church and state, especially in the Western part of the world, right?
所以，随着五世纪末罗马统治权威的衰落或崩溃，直到中世纪，你 有国王和公爵，所有权力都集中到当时的日耳曼地方族长手中。 So, with the fall or the collapse of governing authority from Rome at the end of the 5th century through the medieval period, you have the kings and dukes, and all this power revolving down into local ethnic, at the time, Germanic chieftains.
随着时间的推移，你看到这些欧洲王国的发展， 然后最终，在很久以后，出现了民族国家等等。 Over time, you see the development of these European kingdoms and then eventually, much, much later, nation-states and what have you.
但在西方，我认为由于五世纪罗马中央统治权威的崩溃，以及教会的 兴起，主教在城市地区和以前罗马帝国的行政区域中的作用——尤其 是罗马主教——你看到教会和国家之间在许多方面的斗争，对吧？ But in the West, because I think of that collapse of central governing authority in Rome in the 5th century and the rise of the Church in terms of bishops and the role of bishops in urban areas and in those previously administrative regions of the Roman Empire—especially the Bishop of Rome—you see a struggle in many ways between Church and state, right?
一种紧张关系。 A tension.
有时是健康的紧张关系，我喜欢这样描述，有时则充满了两者之间的暴 力紧张关系，如果你愿意的话，就是世俗和精神领域之间的紧张关系。 Sometimes it's a healthy tension, I like to describe it, and other times it's more full of, you know, violent tension between the two spheres, if you will, between the secular and spiritual spheres.
但你知道，当我们想到中世纪或黑暗时代时，人们听到这个词，就会想 到教会和国家绑在一起，教会支配国家的行为，告诉国家该做什么。 But that's, you know, when we think of the Middle Ages or we think of the Dark Ages, people hear that term, and they think of, you know, Church and state locked together, and the Church dictating what the state does and telling the state what to do.
我们想，哦，我们现代社会多么开明，因为我们有教会和国家的分离，对吧？ We think, Oh, we're so enlightened in our modern era because we have that separation, if you will, right, between Church and state.
所以，教会不会告诉——宗教人物不会告诉世俗人物该做什么。 So, the Church doesn't tell—religious figures don't tell secular figures what to do.
但我们忽略了一个事实，那就是在中世纪，在所谓的黑暗时代，从来不是这样。 But we miss the fact that that was never the case in the Middle Ages, in the medieval period, in this book called Dark Ages.
当时存在着巨大的紧张关系，我认为至少在教会历史上 ，这是独特的西方关系，是当时地缘政治形势的产物。 There was this great tension, and it's a uniquely, I think, at least in terms of the history of the Church, a uniquely Western relationship and outgrowth of that geopolitical situation at the time.
所以，我认为这是这些时代产生的东西，我们没 有充分认识和关注，但我认为我们应该这样做。 So, I think that's something that comes out of these ages that we don't recognize and focus on as much, but I think we should.
是的，你知道，这真的很有趣，因为这是一个真正颠覆一些神话的例子。 Yeah, you know, that's really interesting because it's an example of really turning some of the myths on their heads.
在我给出的概述中，这只是一个大概念，认为这些是糟糕的、落后的时代。 In the outline I gave, it was kind of just a broad idea of these were bad, kind of backwards times.
但要真正切入我们的谈话主题，人们不仅认为这些是糟糕的、 落后的时代，他们似乎还把一些责任归咎于大公教会本身。 But to really get to the point of our conversation, people don't just think that these are bad, backwards times; they seem to lay some of that blame on the Church itself.
通过谈论大公教会和国家的关系，我认为你在表明，大 公教会在其中的作用可能与一些人所想的正好相反。 By talking about the relationship between Church and state here, I think you're showing that it might actually be the opposite of what some people are thinking regarding the Church's role in all this.
但对于那些对这里流传的神话一无所知的人，或许值得花 一分钟时间说说在这段时期，大公教会被指责了什么？ But maybe for those who are blissfully ignorant of the myths that are going on here, it might be worth just saying for a minute what kind of fault is laid at the feet of the Church for this time period?
关于黑暗时代，有哪些特定的公教会神话，是人们对那时期大公教会的看法？ What are some of the specifically Catholic myths about the Dark Ages, in terms of what people think about the Church during that period of time?
是的，我认为是这样，当然，我们可以纠正这些。 Yeah, I think so, and of course, we can correct those.
但我意识到，在我最初的概述中，我可能没有提到人们对这段时期大公教会的一些神话。 But I realize that in my initial outline, I might not have given what some of the myths about the Church that people are coming to this time period with.
我刚才提到的一个是大公教会控制社会的观念——大公 教会人士告诉世俗统治者、国王和公爵等该做什么。 One I mentioned, you know, just a minute ago, is the idea of a Church-controlled society—the Churchmen who told secular rulers what to do, kings and dukes and whatnot.
我认为，在许多情况下，这段时期有一种普遍的神话，认为大公教会是一 个无所不知、无所不能、专制的机构，在西方世界的每个地区都是如此。 There is this kind of general, I think, pervasive myth in many cases about this time period where the Church was this omniscient, omnipotent, autocratic institution, and it was the same in every area of the Western world.
但这不是真的，对吧？ And that's not true, right?
大公教会和世俗统治者之间的关系因你所谈论的西欧基督教世界的不同地区而异。 The relationship between Church and secular rulers varied depending on what area of Christendom in Western Europe you're talking about.
你知道，有些神话，比如说大公教会把圣经锁在大 教堂或教堂里，因为他们不想让人们阅读，对吧？ You know, there are certain myths, for example, that the Church chained Bibles in cathedrals or churches because they didn't want people to read, right?
或者他们不想让人们接触圣经。 Or they didn't want people to have access to the Scripture.
这是一个普遍的说法，对吧？ That's a prevalent one, right?
这仍然可以听到。 That's still heard.
你知道，大公教会关心的是确保每个人都以同样的方式信仰，这其中有一定的真实性。 You know, the Church was concerned about making sure that everybody believes the same way, and there is a certain amount of truth to this.
我知道我们马上要谈这个。 I know we're going to talk about that in a minute.
但你知道，因为这个原因，大公教会逮捕那些信仰不同的人，折磨他们，甚至 杀害他们，有些说法是成千上万，甚至数百万，这取决于你阅读的不同来源。 But, you know, because of that, it went out and arrested people for believing differently and tortured people and even killed people, you know, by the tens of thousands or even millions by some accounts, depending on the different sources you read.
所以，有一种普遍的看法，或者我相信我们也会谈到这个话题，就是大公教 会关心的是欧洲那些不能继承家族土地的次子、三子和四子之间的内斗。 So, there's that general sense of—or even, I'm sure we'll get into this topic too—that the Church was concerned about all the infighting that was going on among second, third, and fourth-born sons in Europe who couldn't inherit the land of their families.
为了让他们停止在欧洲争斗和制造混乱，大公教会决定发动 十字军东征，把所有人派去与北非和圣地的穆斯林作战。 To get them to stop fighting in Europe and causing havoc, they decided to call the Crusades and send everybody off to fight the Muslims in North Africa and in the Holy Land.
所以，再次强调，这些事情中有某些真实的成分 ，但在很大程度上，它们在历史上完全不准确。 So, again, there are certain elements of truth to some of these things, but, you know, very much in large part, they are completely historically inaccurate.
这很有帮助；我很感激。 That's helpful; I appreciate that.
这为我们接下来的谈话很好地铺平了道路。 It does tee up where we're going to go with the rest of this conversation quite nicely.
我现在想转向十字军东征。 I want to pivot now to the Crusades.
我认为，考虑到十字军东征发生在很久以前，它在 西方普通人的大众想象中有着异常长久的生命力。 I think the Crusades have had this kind of remarkably long shelf life in the popular imagination of everyday people in the West, just considering how long ago they happened.
但它们似乎仍然在塑造人们对大公教会和基督的看 法方面发挥着积极作用，也许总体上也是如此。 But they seem to still have an active role in shaping what people think about the Church and about Christ, perhaps in general as well.
你已经触及了一个与十字军东征有关的神话，这个观点是…… You've already touched on one myth related to the Crusades, this idea that...
它们本质上源于这样一种愿望：我们如何处理这些将要互相争斗的 次子、三子、四子和五子，或者说他们所有这些压抑的攻击性？ They were essentially born out of this desire of, like, what do we do with these second, third, and fourth, fifth sons who are going to fight each other or have all this kind of pent-up aggression, however you want to say it?
所以，让我们派他们去十字军东征；这听起来是个好办法。 So, let's send them off on a crusade; that sounds like a great solution.
但你指出的另一个神话是，十字军东征是出于对穆斯林的仇恨。 But another myth that you point out is this idea that the Crusades were driven by a hatred of Muslims.
这有点像——我认为当我们这样说时，我们把现在 对种族战争或宗教战争等的所有包袱都带进来了。 This was kind of—and I think when we say something like that, we import all types of baggage that we have now over ethnic wars or wars of religion and whatnot.
所以，我想从这些神话中的一些开始——无论是次子、三子、四子、五子的神话 ，还是更具体地说，十字军东征源于对穆斯林的仇恨——这些神话错在哪里？ So, I want to start with what do some of these myths—whether that's the second, third, fourth, fifth-born son myth, or perhaps more specifically this idea that the Crusades were born out of a hatred for Muslims—what does that get wrong?
是的，你知道，它涉及许多不同的事情，对吧？ Yeah, so, you know, it gets around many different things, right?
所以，在我直接回答问题之前，我认为重要的是——我在教学、演讲和写作时都尽 量强调这一点——我们必须从参与和经历这些事件的人的角度来理解历史事件。 So, just before I answer the question directly, I think it's important—and I try to emphasize this when I teach and when I give presentations and in my writing—that we have to understand historical events from the perspective of those who participated in them, who lived through them.
这对我们来说很难，因为我们必须超越自己，超越或摆脱现代思维方式 ，把自己置于一种可能与我们自己的思维方式截然不同的思维方式中。 And that's hard for us to do because we have to take our, you know, we have to get out of ourselves, if you will, and kind of get out over or out of our modern mindsets and put ourselves into a mindset that may be radically different from our own.
但我认为，真正理解这些历史事件的最有效方法——这并不意味着我们同意或为它们辩护 或其他什么——但它有助于我们解释它们，理解为什么人们在几个世纪前会那样行事。 But I think that the most effective way to truly understand these historical events—doesn't mean we agree with them or that we justify them or whatever—but it helps us to explain them and understand why people acted the way that they did, you know, centuries and centuries ago.
在十字军东征的情况下，我认为非常重要的是，我们要进入中世纪人们的 思维方式，了解他们与基督的关系，与大公教会的关系，以及他们的社会 ，这些都与信仰——基督信仰，公教信仰——密切相关且不可分割。 In the case of the Crusades, I think it's very, very important for us to get into the mindset of medieval people and their relationship with Christ, the relationship with the Church, and the society that they had, which was, you know, very much linked and integral to the faith—the Christian faith, the Catholic faith.
这并不是说那里每个人都是完美的天主教徒或完美的基督徒；显然，这不是真的。 That's not to say that everybody there, you know, was a perfect Catholic or a perfect Christian; obviously, that's not true.
在任何时代都不是真的，对吧？ It's not true in any age, right?
现在肯定不是真的。 Definitely not true now.
但你知道，人们并没有那么不同。 But, you know, people aren't that much different.
他们确实以一种截然不同的方式理解他们的社会。 They did understand, you know, their society in a much different way.
你会看到，在十一世纪末，尤其是塞尔柱突厥人进入当时拜占庭 帝国的安纳托利亚省——现在的土耳其——以及他们对拜占庭帝 国施加的压力，以及他们向西方请求派遣我们所说的十字军。 You do see, at the end of the 11th century, especially with the arrival of the Seljuk Turks into what was then the Byzantine province of Anatolia—now modern-day Turkey—and the pressures that that group of people placed on the Byzantine Empire, if you will, and the request for help that they sent to the West to send, you know, what we call crusaders to them.
至少对于第一次十字军东征，甚至可以说对于随后的多次十字军东征，动机不是出于仇恨。 It was motivation that, at least for the first Crusade and even we could say for multiple subsequent Crusades, the motivation was not hatred.
坦率地说，那动机是出于爱。 That motivation, frankly, was love.
当你阅读一些当代记载、编年史或这些人在出售土地以资助他们参与十字军东征时留下 的契约时，他们告诉我们他们为什么要去，我喜欢把它描述为三种爱的方式，对吧？ When you read some of these contemporary accounts, chronicles, or charters that these individuals left for us when they sold their land to be able to finance their participation in the Crusade, they told us, you know, why they were going, and it was rooted in—I like to describe it as love in three ways, right?
对神的爱。 The love for God.
他们确实对基督和他的教会以及对神有深厚而持久的爱。 They literally, truly had a deep and abiding love for Christ and His Church and for God.
教宗请求他们参加这些远征和战役，对他们来说，这是重要和值得去做的事情。 The Pope asked them to go on these expeditions and these campaigns, and for them, that was something that was important and something that was worthwhile to do.
显然，并不是所有人，但有大量的人接受并参与了。 Not everybody, obviously, but a large number of people bought into that and did that.
你知道，对于我们来说，我认为现代人在某些方面对此感到困惑。 And you know, for us, I think in some ways modern people struggle with that.
我们困惑于：真的吗？ We struggle with, really?
你做出这个根植于对神的信仰和对大公教会的忠诚的激进人生决定？ You made this radical life decision rooted in belief in God and, you know, in your adherence to the Church?
是的，他们做了。 Yeah, they did.
你知道，那就是他们；那就是他们的信仰方式——坦率地说，他们中的许多人，大多数人。 You know, that's who they were; that's how they believed—many of them, most of them, frankly.
然后，你知道，这是对神的爱；这是对邻舍的爱。 And then, you know, it was love for God; it was love for their neighbors.
从圣地返回的欧洲朝圣者报告说，他们在圣地受到穆斯林的骚扰。 Reports had been coming back from the Holy Land from pilgrims from Europe who had gone to the Holy Land and been harassed, you know, by Muslims.
这并不是说总是如此；也有过非常和平的旅程。 Not to say that always happened; there were times of great peaceful journeys.
但在十一世纪，暴力开始增加，骚扰开始增加。 But in the 11th century, the violence started to increase, and harassment started to increase.
甚至有报告说，生活在圣地的本地基督徒受到骚扰——这些报告传回欧洲，影响 了人们想要去帮助他们在基督里的弟兄姊妹，保护他们免受骚扰、暴力和死亡。 Then, even just reports of indigenous Christians living in the Holy Land who were being harassed—those reports came back to Europe and influenced people to want to go and help their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, to protect them from harassment, from violence, and from death.
还有，对自己的爱和关心，对吧？ And then also, love and concern for themselves, right?
他们获得了这个独特的属灵机会，参与他们认为和视为的朝圣—— 那是一个悔罪的朝圣——教宗为此附加了某些属灵特权：赦罪。 They were provided this unique spiritual opportunity to participate in what they believed and saw as a pilgrimage—a penitential pilgrimage at that—which had certain spiritual privileges attached to it by the Pope: indulgences.
你可以去获得赦罪，对当时的大多数人来说，这是一个独特的机会。 You could go and receive that, and that was a unique opportunity for most of the people at that time.
所以，出于对自己得救的关心和对自己的爱，我们可以说是以一种好 的方式，对他们永恒灵魂的爱，他们离开家园，参与了这些事情。 So, out of concern for their own salvation and love for themselves, we could say in a good way, love for their eternal souls, they left and went and participated in these things.
所以，这并不是根植于对伊斯兰的仇恨，而是根植于对基督的爱、对 大公教会的爱、对邻舍的爱、对自己的爱，以及对自己得救的关心— —显然，他们认为穆斯林或伊斯兰是占领古代基督徒领土的敌人。 So, it wasn't really rooted in, you know, hatred of Islam; it was rooted in love for Christ, love for the Church, love for their neighbor, love for themselves, and concern for their own salvation—recognizing, obviously, that, you know, Muslims or Islam was, you know, the enemy, if you will, of the people who were occupying, in their minds, ancient Christian territory.
这是他们的职责和机会，去解放那些地方。 It was their job and their opportunity, if you will, to go and liberate that.
这真的很有帮助。 That's really helpful.
你写了另一本书——我承认我还没读过——但它的标题是《十字军东征的荣耀》 ，我认为在某些方面这是一个挑衅性的标题，因为我想大多数基督徒的本能反应 可能会用一个不那么激动人心的词，比如《十字军东征的耻辱》或类似的东西。 You've written another book—one that I admittedly haven't read—but it's titled The Glory of the Crusades, which I think is a provocative title in some ways because I think the knee-jerk reaction for most Christians would be to probably use a maybe less exciting kind of word there, maybe like The Shame of the Crusades or something like that.
我很好奇，所以当你——显然，我想部分是为了吸引人们的注意— —但当你说《十字军东征的荣耀》时，十字军东征的荣耀是在于他 们的成就，还是在于你所说的动机，出于对弟兄基督徒的爱？ I'd be curious, so when you—obviously, you know part of that's, I imagine, to catch people's attention—but when you say something like The Glory of the Crusades, is the glory of the Crusades in their accomplishments, or is it in that motivation that you're talking about there, out of kind of the love for their brother Christians?
只是出于好奇，作为一个还没读过那本书的人…… Just out of curiosity, as someone who hasn't read that book...
是的，这是个好问题，我在书中回答了这个问题。 Yeah, so great question, and I address that question in the book.
关于为什么我把书命名为《荣耀》，因为你说得对 ，许多人对这个词的反应是非常情绪化和本能的。 You know, about why I titled the book The Glory because you're right, the reaction to it was, in many camps, a very emotive and knee-jerk reaction to the use of the word.
我相信我的出版商不介意它有点挑衅性。 My publisher, I'm sure, didn't mind that it was a little bit, you know, provocative.
但我的意思是——实际上，我使用这个词有两个具体原因。 But what I meant by that—actually, I use that term specifically for two reasons.
一个是我理解的，你知道，旧约中最常用来表示神的荣耀的希伯来词是kavod。 Really, one is my understanding that, you know, the Hebrew word that’s used for glory of God most often in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word kavod.
我对这个词的理解是，它表示重要或沉重的东西——重量很大或非常重要的东西。 My understanding of that meaning is that it means something important or heavy—so heavy in weight or something really important.
所以，我选择了《十字军东征的荣耀》这个词，因为我希望 人们明白，十字军运动在教会历史上占据了一个重要时期。 So, I used that term; I chose that term The Glory of the Crusades because I wanted people to understand that the crusading movement occupies a significant period of time in Church history.
它是公教会内一个持续八个世纪的整体运动，取 决于你如何确定年代，持续了六百到七百年。 It was an integral movement within the Catholic Church for eight centuries, depending on how you want to date it, anywhere from 600 to 700 years.
部分原因是回应你刚才说的，也许我们应该称之为《十字军东征的耻辱》。 Part of it is a reaction to what you said a minute ago about maybe we should call it The Shame of the Crusades.
有些人可能会这样说，我的反驳是，不，对吧？ Some people might argue that, and my counter to that is, well, no, right?
我们不应该这样说。这并不是真的可耻，但我们需要理解，并不是 说没有发生过可耻的事件或行为——个别十字军做了疯狂的事情。 We shouldn't. It's not really shameful, but we need to understand that there are some—not saying that there weren't events or actions that occurred that were shameful—individual crusaders doing, you know, crazy wild things.
但因为这在教会历史上占据了如此长的时间，许多人被激励去参加 这些十字军，几个世纪以来的教宗鼓励人们这样做，作为今天的天 主教徒，我们有责任真正理解这些事件是什么，为什么人们要去。 But because this occupied such a long period in time of Church history, and so many people were motivated to go on these Crusades, and Popes for centuries encouraged people to do so, it's incumbent upon us as Catholics today to truly understand what these events were and why people went.
所以，这背后有其重要性。 So, there's an importance behind it.
我们不能把头埋在沙子里，说，我们要忽略那七 百年的教会历史，说那些不好，就这样算了。 We can't just bury our head in the proverbial sand, if you will, and just say, Well, we're just going to ignore those 700 years of Church history and say those were bad, and just leave it at that.
我认为这是逃避责任，对吧？ I think that's a cop-out, right?
我们不能这样做；这不诚实。 We can't do that; it's not honest.
所以，我们必须诚实地看待这些事件。 So, we have to look at these events honestly.
这是我使用它的一个原因。 That was one reason I used it.
另一个原因是来自希莱尔·贝洛克的一句话，他是一位英国天主教历史学家、政治 家、文艺复兴时期的人物——做过各种有趣的事情，但他本身就是一个有趣的人。 The other reason is from a quote from Hilaire Belloc, who was an English Catholic historian, politician, renaissance man—did all kinds of fun things, but an interesting man in and of himself.
他在三十年代写了一本关于十字军东征的书，他写作的时代正好是第一次世界大战 后，你知道，奥斯曼土耳其帝国的垮台，圣地所有这些不同的殖民托管地的建立。 He wrote a book on the Crusades in the '30s, and he was writing at a time right post-World War I, you know, the downfall of the Ottoman Turkish Empire, the establishment of all of these different colonial mandates in the Holy Land.
所以，你有法国人在叙利亚，你有英国人在巴勒斯坦，当时有很多——这 些殖民列强使用了很多十字军的形象，以一种非常胜利的感觉，对吧？ So, you had the French in Syria, you had the British in Palestine, and there was a lot at the time—there were a lot of crusader imagery that was used by these colonial powers in a very, you know, victorious sense, right?
哦，就像我们回来了！ Oh, like we have returned!
你知道，我们完成了十字军未能完成的事情；我们占领了圣地，你知道，这类事情。 You know, we finished what the Crusaders weren't able to do; we're occupying the Holy Land, you know, these kinds of things.
贝洛克对这些术语和形象非常不满，在他心目中 ，他说，是的，我们回到了这个世界的地区。 Belloc took great umbrage with that terminology and that imagery, and in his mind, he said, Yeah, we've returned to this area of the world.
我们，你知道，欧洲人回到了这个世界的地区，但 我们从那些在我们之前来的人那里破产地回来了。 We, you know, Europeans have returned to this area of the world, but we returned bankrupt from those who came before us.
就他们生活的光辉和动机的光辉而言，正如你提到的，那是一种充满信仰的动机。 In terms of, you know, the gloriousness of their lives and the gloriousness of their motivation, as you mentioned, which was, you know, a faith-filled motivation overwhelmingly.
所以，他使用「十字军东征的荣耀」或「十字军东征的光辉时代」 这个词，是为了震撼他自己二十世纪的世界，在那个世界里，人们 更加世俗化，或者他看到了世俗主义的兴起和信仰的丧失和缺乏。 So, he was using the term the glory of the Crusades or the glorious time of the Crusades as a way to kind of, you know, shock his own 20th-century world, where people were more secular, or he saw the rise of secularism and a loss and a lack of faith.
他从这些人身上学到了很多，他们为什么选择这样做，你知道， 他们冒着生命危险去进行这非常可怕、漫长、冒险的朝圣之旅。 He learned a lot from these people who went and why they chose to do that, you know, that they risked life and limb to go on this very, very, you know, scary, long, adventurous pilgrimage.
那么，他们为什么这样做呢？ So, why did they do it?
简单的答案是，我在大学时被教导说这是出于贪婪，对吧？ The simple answer, you know, I mean, I was taught as an undergrad that it was greed, right?
是贪婪；他们想要钱财，想要土地。 It was greed; they wanted money, they wanted land.
但当你剥开这个理由的层层外衣时，就会发现这根本行不通。 And that just, when you peel back the onion on that justification, just doesn't really work.
我的意思是，并不是说没有人认为通过参加十字军东征可以发财；他们 很快发现情况并非如此，因为战争是昂贵的，无论在哪个世纪进行。 I mean, not to say that there weren't some who thought they were going to get rich by going on crusade; they quickly found out that was not going to be the case because warfare is expensive, no matter what century in which you fight it.
所以，是的，我认为从其中的光辉中，我们可以了解这些人是谁，他们如何看待自 己，如何看待他们与基督和大公教会的关系，我们可以从中学到很多属灵的东西。 So, yeah, I think that from the gloriousness of it, we can learn who these people were, how they saw themselves, how they saw their relationship to Christ and the Church, and we can learn a lot spiritually from them as a result of that.
你知道，研究教会历史的一个真正有趣的事情——我认为你的回答确实揭示了这一 点——就是看到过去可能激励人们的东西与今天激励我们的东西之间的差距，或者 我们认为理所当然的东西，只是每个人看待事物的方式，而其他人并不认同。 You know, one of the really interesting things about studying Church history—and I think your answer has really brought this out—is to see the gaps in what might have motivated people in the past versus what motivates us today, or what are the things that we take for granted as just simply the way everyone would see things that other people don't share.
你知道，路易斯在他关于道成肉身的伟大序言中谈到了我们的盲点，对吧？ Oftentimes, you know, C.S. Lewis has that great preface on the Incarnation where he talks about kind of our blind spots, right?
以及历史如何帮助我们用别人的盲点来替代我们的盲点， 或者看到我们常常因为只关注自己的时代而忽视的盲点。 And how history helps us kind of trade our blind spots for others or see our blind spots that we so often miss by only looking at our times.
我认为十字军东征可以以某种方式帮助我们看到，这些人可能是被某种 东西激励的——如果我们以仁慈的眼光看待它——我们可以问自己：我 们是否也被信仰问题如此强烈地激励，以至于采取如此重大的行动？ I think the Crusades can do that in a way for us to see that these people were maybe motivated by something—if we have a charitable reading of it—that we could ask ourselves: are we motivated so strongly by matters of faith to take up such consequential actions?
我想即使有人在最后说，也许我希望这能稍微不同地进行 ，或者那能稍微不同地进行，他们也能从中得到启发。 I think someone could get that out of that, even if they did say at the end of the day, you know, maybe I wish this would have gone slightly differently or that would have gone slightly differently.
但我们仍然可以以仁慈的态度参与其中，努力从过去学习。 But we can still kind of have that charitable engagement and try to learn from the past.
从十字军东征中学习的一个棘手问题，我认为如果不提就太疏忽了，考虑到 我的观众非常多样化——几乎平均分为新教徒、天主教徒和东正教徒——所 以在这里谈论公教会和东正教的对话，这是一个长期以来的症结，长久地留 在人们的记忆中，那就是第四次十字军东征中对君士坦丁堡的洗劫。 One of the tricky points of learning from the Crusades specifically that I think would be remiss not to bring up, just given the very diverse nature of my audience—it's almost evenly split between Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox—and so talking to the Catholic and Orthodox dialogue here, it's something that's been a sticking point for a long time and has lived long in the memory, and that is the sacking of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade.
那么，对于那些不熟悉的人，也许可以说说这里发生了什么？ So, for those that aren't familiar, perhaps what happened here?
也许，我的意思是，尽我们所能回答这样的问题，为什么会发生？ And maybe, I mean, as much as we can answer a question like this, why did it happen?
是的，我们有多少时间？ Yeah, so how much time do we have?
在第四次十字军东征的准备阶段和进行过程中发生了很多事情。 There's a lot going on in the lead-up to the Fourth Crusade and what happens during the Fourth Crusade.
但基本上总结一下，就是在这个时候，为了让大家了解情况，你有第三次 十字军东征，它大约在1192年结束。它只是部分成功；它是为了收复 圣城耶路撒冷而发起的，耶路撒冷再次被著名的穆斯林将军萨拉丁占领。 But to summarize it, basically, right, so you have—at this time, just to kind of level set everybody—you had the Third Crusade, which had happened, you know, it basically finishes around 1192. It was only partially successful; it was launched to recover the Holy City of Jerusalem, which had been captured again by Saladin, the famous Muslim general.
当时欧洲的三大君主参加了这次十字军东征，所以他们只是部分成功。 The three major monarchs of Europe at the time went on this Crusade, so they were only partially successful.
耶路撒冷仍在伊斯兰手中。 Jerusalem is still in Islamic hands.
所以，当时的教宗英诺森三世决定再次发动十字军东 征，希望这次能完成任务，再次解放圣城耶路撒冷。 So, the Pope at the time, Innocent III, decides he wants to call another Crusade to hopefully, this time, complete the deal and once again liberate the Holy City of Jerusalem.
于是，他发动了十字军东征。 So, he calls a Crusade.
法国的几个男爵和贵族决定要参加十字军东征。 A couple of barons and noblemen in France decide that they are going to take the cross and go.
他们决定，嗯，你知道，我们要按照第三次十字军东征的计划 行事——或者至少是第三次十字军东征的法英部队的计划。 They decide, well, you know, we're going to follow the same plan as the Third Crusade—or at least the French and English contingents of the Third Crusade.
我们要航行；我们要乘坐运输船，通过地中海更快地到达圣地。 We're going to sail; we're going to take transport ships and go through the Mediterranean to get to the Holy Land faster.
以前的十字军东征都是陆路行军，但问题是这些都是 内陆的法国贵族；他们没有舰队——他们没有船只。 Previous Crusades had marched overland, but the problem is that these are all landlocked French noblemen; they don't have a fleet—they have no ships.
所以，他们必须去找那些船只。 So, they have to go get those ships.
他们决定派大使去意大利，当时他们实际上只有两个地方可以 去：热那亚和威尼斯——试图为商船或部队运输谈判合同。 They decide to send ambassadors down to Italy, and there are really two places they could go at the time: Genoa and Venice—to try to negotiate a contract for merchant vessels or troop transports.
他们最终去了威尼斯。 They end up going to Venice.
威尼斯同意了，但十字军犯了整个行动的根本错误，这影响了十字军东征的其余事件。 Venice agrees, but the Crusaders make the fundamental mistake of their entire operation, which influences the rest of the events of the Crusade.
当他们与威尼斯人进行条约谈判时，他们严重高估 了他们认为将参加这次十字军东征的部队人数。 When they enter into treaty negotiations with the Venetians, they grossly overestimate the number of troops that they thought were going to take the cross and go on this Crusade.
他们告诉威尼斯人，他们将有33，500名部队。 They told the Venetians they would have 33,500 troops.
他们没有这个数字；他们还没有招募到这些部队。 They didn't have that number; they didn't have those troops signed up already.
他们只是认为他们能够得到这个数字。 They just assumed that they'd be able to get that number.
他们把人数估得那么高，实在是荒谬，但他们就是这么做了。 It was really ridiculous that they went that high, but they did.
所以，威尼斯决定暂停他们一整年的商业活动，对吧？ So, Venice decides to suspend their merchant activity for an entire year, right?
他们什么都不做，只是为这第四次十字军东征建造这支运输船队。 They don't do anything except for build this fleet of transport ships for this Fourth Crusade.
一年过去了，到了夏天，十字军应该到达威尼斯，准备运输，并带来资金。 So, a year goes by, and in the summer, the Crusaders are supposed to arrive in Venice and get ready for transport and bring money with them.
签署这项条约的十字军贵族——他们如何支付的整个 想法是，你知道，每个人都必须自己支付，对吧？ The Crusade noblemen who entered into this treaty—the whole idea of how they were going to pay for it was, you know, everybody has to pay their own way, right?
所以，除了你个人的十字军，没有人会为此买单。 So, nobody's paying for this except for you, the individual Crusader.
所以，人们来了。 So, people show up.
他们估计有33，500人；但实际只有不到12，000人。 They were estimating 33,500; they had less than 12,000 to show.
所以，这是一个重大问题，对吧？ So, that's a significant problem, right?
你必须弥补巨大的赤字，所以他们没有足够的钱支付给威尼斯人。 There's a significant deficit that you have to make up, and so they don't have enough money to pay the Venetians.
你可以想象威尼斯人对这种情况非常愤怒，对吧？ You can imagine the Venetians are quite angry at the situation, right?
我们暂停了一年的商业活动；基本上，我们的城市破产了，除非我们从你们那里得到钱。 We suspended our merchant activity for a year; we basically put our city into bankruptcy, if you will, unless we get money from you.
所以，给我们一些钱吧！ So, give us some money!
没有人知道如何解决这个问题。 Nobody knew how to fix that.
十字军贵族不知道如何解决这个问题。 The Crusade noblemen didn't know how to resolve the issue.
于是，当时的威尼斯领袖，总督恩里科·丹多洛说，好吧，我有个主意。 So, the Doge, the leader of Venice at the time, a man named Enrico Dandolo, says, Okay, well, I have an idea.
在亚得里亚海对面有个叫扎拉的城市，曾经是威尼 斯的领土，但现在实际上在匈牙利国王的控制下。 Across the Adriatic is this city called Zara, which used to be part of Venetian territory but is now actually under the control of the King of Hungary.
我们想要收回它，所以你们为什么不和我们一起，攻击那个 城市，为我们夺取那个城市，这样就能减轻你们的债务呢？ We want that back, so why don't you come with us, attack that city, capture that city for us, and that'll alleviate your debt?
现在，这样做的问题——听起来对大家都是双赢——但 问题是扎拉城，匈牙利国王已经立下了十字军誓言。 Now, the problem with doing that—sounds like a win-win for everybody—but the problem with that is that the city of Zara, the King of Hungary had taken the Crusade vow.
他实际上还没有参加十字军东征，但他立了誓言，所以他的土地受教会保护，对吧？ He hadn't actually gone on Crusade yet, but he'd taken the vow, so his lands were protected by the Church, right?
所以，任何攻击他土地的人都会被自动逐出教会。 So, anybody who attacks his lands would be automatically excommunicated.
一旦做出这个决定，一些十字军决定离开；他们说，我不参加这个。 Some Crusaders decide to leave once this decision is made; they're like, I'm not going to participate in this.
但大多数人去了，然后当他们洗劫扎拉城——一个 基督徒城市——时，十字军已经处于危险境地。 But most went, and then when they sacked the city of Zara—a Christian city—already the Crusade is in a precarious position.
一群法国十字军去罗马；他们向教宗英诺森三世道歉，他解除了对他们的绝罚。 A group of French Crusaders goes to Rome; they apologize to Pope Innocent III, and he lifts the excommunication of them.
有趣的是，威尼斯人从未被逐出教会，所以他们在整个过程中都未被逐出教会。 The Venetians, interestingly enough, are never excommunicated, so they're excommunicated through this entire time.
他们甚至在技术上都不是真正的十字军。 They're not even really technically Crusaders.
一旦你被逐出教会，你在技术上和法律上就不再是十字军了，但他们不在乎。 Then, once you've been excommunicated, you are not really, technically, legally a Crusader anymore, but they didn't care.
当他们过冬时——这发生在夏末秋初，所以不是地中海的航行季节——他们在扎拉城过冬。 While they're wintering—this happens late summer, early fall, so it's not sailing season in the Mediterranean—they winter over, if you will, in the city of Zara.
当他们在那里时，一个名叫阿莱克修斯·安杰卢斯的拜占庭王子的代表去见十字军，说： 「嘿，我们需要帮助，因为我们的王子——他的父亲曾是皇帝，但被他的兄弟废黜了。」 While they're there, representatives from a Byzantine prince by the name of Alexius Angelus go and meet with the Crusaders and say, Hey, we need help because our prince—his father used to be emperor, but he was deposed by his brother.
我们的王子想恢复他的父亲和他在君士坦丁堡的合法王位。 Our prince wants to restore his father and his rightful claim to the throne in Constantinople.
所以，如果你和我们一起去城市帮助恢复我们，他将资助你们余下的耶路撒冷远征。 So, if you go with us and with him to the city and help restore us, he will finance the rest of your expedition to Jerusalem.
他将恢复教会东西两部分的合一。 He will restore union between the Eastern and Western halves of the Church.
他还会给你一支部队，和你一起去圣地作战。 He'll also give you a contingent of troops to go with you to fight in the Holy Land.
再次，五赢，对吧？ Again, win-win-win-win-win, right?
现在，教宗英诺森三世通过这一切，听到报告说 阿莱克修斯·安杰卢斯的代表来到了十字军。 Now, Pope Innocent III, through all this, hears reports that representatives of Alexius Angelus have come to the Crusaders.
他给十字军领袖蒙费拉托的博尼法斯写信说：「不要与此有任何关系。」 He writes a letter to the Crusade leader, Boniface de Montferrat, and says, Don't have anything to do with this.
不要与这个人合作。 Don't participate with this guy.
他见过他的代表，一直在欧洲各地旅行，试图让人们帮助他。 He's met his representatives and has been traveling all through Europe trying to get people to help him.
不要这样做；只管去耶路撒冷。 Do not do this; just go to Jerusalem.
他们不听；他们去了君士坦丁堡。 They don't listen; they go to Constantinople.
长话短说，最终，他们确实成功地让他登上了王位，但发生了一场宫廷 政变，另一个名叫莫索菲勒斯的使者决定除掉阿莱克修斯·安杰卢斯和 他的父亲，因为他们带来了这些十字军，在城市周围制造了混乱。 Long story short, ultimately, they do succeed in putting him on the throne, but there's a palace coup where another courier by the name of Morsophilus decides to get rid of Alexius Angelus and his dad because they brought these Crusaders who created havoc around the city.
人们对这些西方人在君士坦丁堡城门外的存在感到不满。 People weren't happy with the presence of these Westerners outside the gates of Constantinople.
他也无法支付他承诺给十字军的所有钱，所以他做 了一些事情，比如从圣像上取下珠宝或拿走圣器。 He couldn't pay all the money that he promised the Crusaders either, so he was doing things like taking jewels off of icons or taking sacred vessels.
他打开皇帝的坟墓，取出珠宝，使用圣器，熔化后支付给十字军。 He was opening up the tombs of emperors and taking out jewels and using sacred vessels and melting them down and giving that to the Crusaders in payment.
所以，他在民众中也不太受欢迎。 So, he wasn't very popular among the people either.
这个莫索菲勒斯，宫廷顾问，决定除掉阿莱克修斯·安杰卢斯和他的父亲。 This Morsophilus, a court advisor, decides to get rid of Alexius Angelus and his dad.
然后他宣布自己为皇帝——他是阿莱克修斯四世。十字军感到不安 和愤怒，因为那个本应给他们钱的人最终被阿莱克修斯四世下令在 监狱中勒死。所以，这造成了一些重大问题，他们决定洗劫城市。 Then he declares himself to be emperor—he's Alexius IV. The Crusaders are upset and angry because the guy who was supposed to give them money ultimately gets strangled in jail by order of Alexius IV. So, it causes some significant problems, and they decide to sack the city.
然后他们给英诺森写信说，顺便说一下，我们洗劫了城市，建立了君士坦丁堡的拉丁帝国。 You know, and then they write a letter back to Innocent and say, Okay, by the way, we sacked the city, and we've established this Latin Empire of Constantinople.
一切不是都很好吗？ Isn't everything just great?
这一切是如何解决的？ How this all worked out?
教宗对此非常不满，至少可以这么说。 The Pope was not happy at all, to say the least.
如果你读他当时的信件，他真的很生气，在这些信中用了非常严厉和强烈的措辞。 If you read his letters from the time, he was really angry and had very choice and strong words that he wrote in these letters.
第四次十字军东征中洗劫君士坦丁堡发生在1204 年；这可能是十字军东征中最臭名昭著的事件之一。 The sacking of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade is in 1204; it's probably one of the most infamous episodes of the Crusades.
但从某种角度来看，这是可以理解的——显然，这完全没有正当理由。 But it's understandable from a certain perspective—not justified at all, obviously.
东西方对此仍然存在如此敌意的部分原因是，一旦十字军进入 君士坦丁堡并建立了拉丁帝国，他们确实在多年间从君士坦丁 堡带走了许多世俗和精神的圣物和艺术品，并将其运回西方。 Part of the reason why there's such animosity still between East and West over this is that once the Crusaders got into Constantinople and established that Latin Empire, they did, over the years, take many sacred relics and artwork, both secular and spiritual, from Constantinople and ship it back West.
这曾是一个宏伟的基督教城市的伟大繁荣。 It was a great flowering of this once-majestic Christian city.
这是基督徒之间的斗争，从一开始就是荒谬的。 It was Christian-on-Christian fighting, which was ridiculous to begin with.
正如你提到的，它甚至在今天仍然引发问题。 It causes problems, as you mentioned, even today.
坦率地说，我认为人们谈论这件事时的问题是，通常是非此即彼，对吧？ Frankly, I think the problem when people talk about this event is that it's usually one or the other, right?
我的意思是，一些东正教徒或东方人总是喜欢责 怪西方，你知道，责怪西方十字军，甚至教宗。 I mean, some Orthodox or Easterners like to always blame the West, you know, and Western Crusaders and even the Pope for these events.
而且我认为，更多的拉丁罗马西方人倾向于忽视东方的拜占庭视角，说，你 知道，你一开始就不应该邀请我们；否则，他们就不会在那里，诸如此类。 And I think, you know, more Latin Roman Western people tend to just kind of dismiss the Eastern, you know, the Byzantine perspective and say, Well, you know, you shouldn't have invited us in the first place; otherwise, they wouldn't have been there, type of thing.
所以，我认为在这个历史事件中，双方都有责任，不幸 的是，它今天仍然对东西方关系产生如此负面的影响。 So, I think there is blame on both sides of the house in this historical event when you look at it, and it's just unfortunate that it continues to have such a negative impact on East-West relations today.
我非常欣赏你用的一个词：可以理解但不合理。 I really appreciated a phrase you put in there: understandable yet not justified.
我认为这是我们在研究历史时需要的一种非常重要的框架——仅仅因为我们试图在 原始背景下理解某件事，并不总是意味着我们在说，好吧，这意味着那是件好事。 I think that's a really important kind of frame to have as we go through history—that just because we seek to understand something in its original context doesn't always mean that we're saying, Okay, and that means that it was a good thing.
仅仅因为你能理解某人的动机，我非常欣赏你为 此提供的背景和我们通过它获得的广阔视角。 Just because you can understand someone's motivations here, I really appreciate the context that you gave for that and the breadth of perspective that we're getting through that.
显然，正如你所说，我们可以谈论这个话题好几个小时；你可以单独为此写多卷本的作品。 Obviously, like you said, we could talk about this for hours and hours; you could write multi-volume works on this alone.
但我认为这是一个关于那里发生的事情的精彩背景 ，也许同样是关于那里没有发生的事情，对吧？ But I think that was a wonderful background on what's going on there and equally, perhaps, what's not happening there, right?
比如，这不是教宗在说，嘿，去做这个；这会很棒。 Like, this isn't the Pope saying, Hey, go do this; this is going to be great.
而是你有一个非常复杂的经济因素混乱局面，人们在行动 ，认为他们是在代表教会行事，而事实上他们并不是。 But that you have a really complicated mess of economic factors going into this and people acting, thinking they're acting kind of on behalf of the Church when, in fact, they are not.
所以，我认为这都非常有帮助。 So, I think that was all really helpful.
我们可以深入探讨这个问题，但我想在剩下的时间里，给一点时 间给我不知道是否排第二的事情——我想说它可能仅次于十字军 东征的臭名昭著——那就是宗教裁判所，至少在这个时期。 We could dive deep into that, but I want to give a little bit of time, with the time that we have left, to the thing that I don't know if it's second—I would say it's probably only second in infamy to the Crusades—which is the Inquisition, at least from this time period.
所以，你知道，你写道，荷里活版的宗教裁判所不是事实真相。 So, you know, you write, The Hollywood version of the Inquisition isn't the real story.
那么，宗教裁判所的真实故事是什么？ So, what is the real story of the Inquisition?
同样，我们可以谈三个小时，但简单来说，如果有人认为宗教裁判所是大公教会创 建的秘密警察，四处巡查，确保每个人的教义都正确无误，否则就要受酷刑——如 果这不是事实，我认为这或多或少是荷里活版的故事——那么真实的故事是什么？ Again, we could do three hours on this, but kind of in brief, you know, if someone has the idea that the Inquisition was about the Church creating this secret police to go around and make sure everyone had all their doctrines checked off correctly and on pain of torture—if that isn't the story, which I think is more or less the Hollywood version of the story—what is the story?
是的，荷里活版的故事有时就像梅尔·布鲁克斯的音乐剧，对吧？ Yeah, being a Hollywood version of the story is sometimes like that Mel Brooks musical, right?
关于宗教裁判所的东西——虽然幽默有趣——在许多方面并不符合历史。 The thing that's on the Inquisition—humorous and funny as it is—not historically accurate in many ways.
但那么，宗教裁判所是什么？ But so, what is the Inquisition?
是的，这又是一个非常复杂的话题，我认为坦率地说，非常困难且多方面。 Yeah, again, this is one of those topics that's very dense and I think very difficult and multifaceted, frankly.
但我也认为现代观众很难真正理解宗教裁判所产生的背景。 But I also think it's very difficult for a modern audience to truly understand the context in which the Inquisition arose.
宗教裁判所不是一个单一的实体，它因时间和地点而有很大差异。 The Inquisition was not a monolithic entity; it varied greatly depending on the time and place.
最初，它是在十二世纪为对抗异端而建立的，特别是 为了应对法国南部的卡特里派和阿尔比派等团体。 Initially, it was established in the 12th century to combat heresy, particularly in response to groups like the Cathars and Albigensians in southern France.
大公教会试图解决它认为对信仰的威胁，宗教裁判所是调查和根除异端的一种手段。 The Church sought to address what it perceived as threats to the faith, and the Inquisition was a means to investigate and root out heresy.
这个过程涉及裁判官——通常是修会成员——他们会调查异端指控。 The process involved inquisitors—often members of religious orders—who would investigate allegations of heresy.
他们会收集证据，询问证人，并为被告提供辩护机会。 They would gather evidence, question witnesses, and provide a chance for the accused to defend themselves.
虽然确实存在滥用和酷刑的情况，尤其是在后期，但宗教裁 判所并不仅仅是为了制造恐惧或通过暴力强制执行教义。 While there were certainly abuses and instances of torture, especially in later periods, the Inquisition was not solely about creating fear or enforcing doctrine through violence.
从某种意义上说，它也涉及牧灵关怀，因为大公教会相信通过纠正信仰错误来拯救灵魂。 It was also about pastoral care, in a sense, as the Church believed it was saving souls by correcting errors in belief.
其目标是将人们带回信仰，而不仅仅是惩罚他们。 The goal was to bring people back to the faith rather than simply punish them.
所以，虽然荷里活版常常描绘一个无情、秘密的组织， 但现实要复杂得多，动机、方法和结果交织在一起。 So, while the Hollywood version often paints a picture of a ruthless, secretive organization, the reality was much more complex, with a mix of motivations, methods, and outcomes.
理解这一背景有助于澄清宗教裁判所背后的意图和导致其建立的历史环境。 Understanding this context helps to clarify the intentions behind the Inquisition and the historical circumstances that led to its establishment.
你知道，当我们谈论这个问题或事件时，深入研究或再次回到从生活在那 个时代的人的角度去理解事物，确实是我们的责任和重要任务，对吧？ You know, it is really incumbent and important upon us, as we talk about this issue or this event, to delve into—or again, go back to that trying to understand things from the perspective of those who lived during those times, right?
同样，这不是为事情辩护，但如果不理解中世纪人 如何看待异端，你就无法真正理解宗教裁判所。 Again, this is not justification for things, but you really can't understand the Inquisition without understanding how medieval people saw heresy and how they viewed it.
我们生活在——我这样说吧——我们在一个现代多元社会中长大，在这个社会中，人们 可以有不同的意见，人们可以有不同的信仰，他们可以有不同的崇拜方式，这很好。 We live in a—I'll put it this way—we grew up in a modern pluralistic society where people can have differing opinions, people can believe differently, they can worship differently, which is fine.
但这不是中世纪人们成长的世界，对吧？ But that's not the world that medieval people grew up in, right?
那甚至不是他们的世界。 That's not even remotely their world.
他们无法理解和领会这一点。 They had no comprehension of that and understanding of that.
这并不是说中世纪欧洲没有不同的宗教团体；显然 ，在基督教世界的某些地区有犹太人和穆斯林。 Not to say that there weren't different religious groups within medieval Europe; obviously, there were Jews and Muslims in certain areas of Christendom.
但在许多地区，并没有，所以在某些方面，这是 一种非常单一的社会，至少从信仰的角度来看。 But in many areas, there weren't, so it was, in some ways, a very monolithic type of society, at least from a faith perspective.
所以，我的意思是，真正理解这一点的最佳方式——我认为人们 在谈论和思考宗教裁判所时忽略的一个关键区别——有几点。 So, again, I mean, the best way to understand this really—and I think a key distinction that people miss when talking about and thinking of the Inquisition—is a few things.
一是理解在中世纪世界，异端既是世俗罪行，也是属灵罪行。 One is the understanding that heresy in the medieval world was both a secular crime and a spiritual crime.
这有一个教会或大公教会的组成部分，一个属灵的组 成部分，还有一个世俗／政治的组成部分，对吧？ There was an ecclesiastical component or a Church component to this, a spiritual component, and a secular/political component to it, right?
从大公教会的角度来看，从事异端或教导异端的人是对信徒灵魂的威胁，对吧？ From the Church's perspective, someone who is engaging in heresy or teaching heresy is a threat to the soul of the faithful, right?
那些传讲错误的人将他人的灵魂——以及他们自己的灵魂——置于危险之中，对吧？ Those who are preaching something in error place another person's soul—and their own—in danger, right?
在永恒的危险中。 In eternal danger.
所以，从教会的角度，属灵的角度，大公教会希望帮助那个人，你知道，为 了他们自己的益处，出于仁爱，属灵的仁爱，让他们放弃错误，接受真理。 So, from an ecclesial perspective, spiritual perspective, the Church wants to help that person, you know, give up that error and embrace the truth for their own good, as a matter of charity, spiritual charity.
而从世俗的角度来看，当时的世俗统治者认识到并知道，异端通常导致暴力， 而且可能是民众激发的暴力——人们只是对那些支持这些事情的人感到愤怒。 Whereas from a secular perspective, secular rulers at the time recognized and knew that heresy usually results in violence, and it can be popularly motivated violence—people who are just angry at those who are espousing these things.
它引起动荡，而世俗官员总是关心和平、团结和安全，对吧？ It causes unrest, and a secular official is always concerned about peace, unity, and security, right?
这在整个世界历史上都是如此；这是政治运动最想要的东西。 This has been true throughout the history of the world; this is what political movements really want above all things.
所以，从世俗的角度来看，那些从事异端的人是威胁——积极的威胁。 So, from a secular perspective, those who are engaged in heresy were threats—active threats.
你知道，我们会用国家安全威胁这个词，如果你愿意的话，对社会来说，对吧？ You know, we would use the term national security threat, if you will, to the society, right?
所以，为了保护社会的工作，他们对异端罪行有惩罚和定罪，大公教会也是如此。 And so, to their job of protecting the society, they had a punishment and a crime for the crime of heresy, as did the Church.
所以，我们首先要记住这一点：对异端的理解及其两个要素。 So, we have to keep that in mind first of all: the understanding of heresy and the two elements of it.
然后，我认为关于所谓宗教裁判所的另一个常被误解的事情是，我们所谓的宗教裁判 所实际上有两个不同的阶段，它们有非常不同的历史，尽管有一些相似的组成部分。 Then the other thing I think that is also often misunderstood about the so-called Inquisition is that there were really two distinct phases of what we kind of call the Inquisition, and they have very differing histories, although with some similar components.
我的意思是，这些裁判官，这些中世纪裁判官的第一个实例是在十三世纪。 So, what I mean by that is that the first kind of instance of these inquisitors, these medieval inquisitors, is in the 13th century.
在十三世纪初，阿尔比派和卡特里派在法国南部兴起，这是一个异端。 In the early 1200s, you have the rise of Albigensianism and Catharism, a heresy in the south of France.
最初，教宗英诺森三世尝试通过宣讲运动来根除这种异端，但没有奏效。 Initially, Pope Innocent III tries a preaching campaign to eradicate this heresy, but it doesn't work.
与这些宗教因素相关的还有一些世俗和经济因素。 There are some secular and economic factors associated with these religious factors as well.
最终，他发动了一次十字军东征，导致了现代法国境内长达二十年的暴力内战。 Ultimately, he calls a Crusade that leads to a violent 20-year civil war within what is modern-day France.
在那之后，尽管由于内战的结束，政治局势稳定下来，但异端仍然存在。 At the end of that, although the political situation stabilizes as a result of the end of the civil war, the heresy still exists.
所以，大公教会决定需要派遣受过专门训练的神学 家到这个地区与人们交谈，以这种方式根除异端。 So, the Church decides that it needs to send specially trained theologians to this area to talk to people and to root out this heresy that way.
这导致了中世纪裁判官的建立——由教宗任命的受过 训练的神学家，他们会在发现异端的地区与人交谈。 This leads to the establishment of the medieval inquisitors—papally appointed, trained theologians who would go and talk to, you know, in areas where heresy was found.
后来，直到十五世纪，才在这些地区建立了这些制 度化的法庭，我们可以正式称之为宗教裁判所。 Then later on, it's not until really the 15th century that you have the establishment of these institutional tribunals, which we could properly call the Inquisition in these areas.
但它们的运作方式各不相同，对吧？ But they all operated differently from each other, right?
罗马有一个；其中最著名的是西班牙宗教裁判所。 There was one in Rome; the most famous of these is the Spanish Inquisition.
但它们也存在于基督教世界的其他地区，它们之间没有联系；它们不一定是统一的。 But they were in other areas of Christendom as well, and they're not linked; they're not necessarily united.
它们并不都是在做同样的事情。 They're not all doing the same thing.
它们有相似的程序，遵循某些法律程序，但它们差异很大。 They have similar procedures and follow certain legal protocols, but they're vastly different.
在西班牙，西班牙宗教裁判所是王室的一个机构，它的产 生是因为西班牙在政治和文化上都有这种独特的情况。 In Spain, the Spanish Inquisition is an organ of the crown and is brought forth because of this unique situation in Spain, both politically and culturally.
有来自穆斯林或犹太背景的人皈依基督信仰。 You have the presence of individuals who come from Muslim or Jewish backgrounds who convert to the Christian faith.
然而，西班牙社会在被称为老基督徒的人群——来自世代为基督徒的 家庭的人——和那些有穆斯林和犹太背景的人之间存在这种分歧。 However, there was this kind of division in Spanish society between groups of people known as Old Christians—people who had come from families that had been Christian for generations—and those of Muslim and Jewish backgrounds.
许多新基督徒变得非常重要，或在西班牙社会中 占据重要地位，导致老基督徒中产生一些嫉妒。 Many of these newer Christians had become very important or came to occupy significant positions in Spanish society, leading to some jealousy among the Old Christians.
在西班牙，这些群体之间存在巨大的文化紧张关系，王 室再次关注和平、团结和安全，希望结束这种关系。 There was this great cultural tension between these groups in Spain that the crown, again focused on peace, unity, and security, wanted to end.
所以，费尔南多国王和伊莎贝尔女王利用教会和这个宗 教裁判所，试图通过根除这些皈依者来实现这种统一。 So, King Fernando and Queen Isabel utilized the Church and this Inquisition to try to bring about this unity by rooting out these conversos.
这些人是公开皈依的；表面上，他们看起来是基督徒， 但内心仍然实践穆斯林信仰或犹太信仰的某些元素。 These were people who converted publicly; outwardly, they seemed Christian, but inwardly, they still practiced elements of the Muslim faith or Jewish faith.
一些老基督徒和西班牙社会的其他成员非常担心，这是一 种第五纵队，会向任何可能入侵的穆斯林军队打开城门。 There was a lot of concern among some of these Old Christians and other elements of Spanish society that this was some kind of, you know, fifth column in Spanish society that would open the city gates to whatever invading Muslim army might be coming.
所以，有很多利用民众恐惧和阴谋论之类的东西导致了这种情况。 So, there's a lot of, you know, playing on popular fear and conspiracy theories and stuff like that as well that led to this.
我想，这就是简而言之，教宗裁判官的宗教裁判所。 I guess that's, you know, in a nutshell, kind of the Inquisition of the papal inquisitors.
我们有中世纪裁判官和宗教裁判所的制度法庭之间的区别，但在整个基督 教世界，从来没有一个包罗万象、单一、无所不知、无所不能的机构控制 每个人的宗教思想，我认为这与人们对宗教裁判所的普遍理解不同。 We have the difference between these medieval inquisitors and the institutional tribunals of the Inquisition, but there was never any all-encompassing, monolithic, omniscient, omnipotent institution throughout Christendom that controlled everybody's religious thoughts, as is commonly understood, I think, with the Inquisition.
这很有帮助，这真是简明扼要。 That's helpful; that was in a nutshell, really well.
我想，也许如果我们要谈到这对人们来说最棘手的部分。 I think, you know, maybe if we were to get to what is essentially, I think, the thorniest part of this for people.
但我想在此之前，我要再次说我非常欣赏这里背景的重要性。 But I guess before I do that, I'll say I really appreciate, again, the importance of context here.
这对我们来说是如此陌生，我们在一种多元文化环境中长大——不仅是多元文化，而且在宗 教、种族等方面都非常多元——我们理所当然地认为「多样性是我们的力量」这样的口号。 It is so foreign for us, who grew up in a kind of multicultural environment—not just multicultural, but something that is very multi-perspectival, if you will, religiously, ethnically, all of these things diverse—where we just take it for granted that we have slogans like diversity is our strength.
这些各种各样的东西就像水中的东西，但我们甚至没有真正反思过。 These various things that are just kind of in the water, but we haven't even really reflected upon.
同样，这些人理所当然地认为信仰的多样性不是你的力量，信仰的差异对国家有害。 In a similar way, these people would have just taken for granted that diversity of belief wouldn't be your strength and that differences of belief are bad for the state.
这对他们来说是很自然的。 That would have just been kind of natural for them.
所以，尽管我们很难理解这一点，无论我们最终是否 同意，我认为正如你所说，思考这一点真的很重要。 So, as hard as it is for us to wrap our heads around that, and whether we agree with that in the end or not, I think it's really important for us to think about that, as you said.
但考虑到这一点，我认为特别是考虑到我们的背景， 对人们来说最难接受的是这个时期关于酷刑的报道。 But with that being in mind, I think especially given where we come from, the hardest thing for people is kind of reports of torture in this time.
我看过罗恩·哈斯纳关于这方面的作品；他有一句名言叫「官僚 化的酷刑」，与宗教裁判所有关，特别是西班牙宗教裁判所。 I came across Ron Hassner's work on this; he has a great line called bureaucratized torture, relating to the Inquisition, specifically the Spanish Inquisition.
他的意思不是说这是一个你想象中的官僚机构折磨每个人的 大机器，而是说它的使用实际上是相当有条理和谨慎的。 What he means by that isn't that it's this great big machine that you think of with bureaucracy torturing everyone, but actually, it's pretty methodical and measured in how it's being used.
然而，任何酷刑的元素对基督徒和天主教徒来说都很难理解。 Nevertheless, any element of torture is really hard for Christians and Catholics to wrap their heads around.
那么，你会对那些认为酷刑是宗教裁判所一部分的人说什么呢？ So, what would you say to those people who have this idea of torture being part of the Inquisition?
也许可以衡量一下它在哪些方面是，哪些方面不是，但如果人 们想以仁慈的基督徒视角看待这一点，他们应该如何思考呢？ Maybe kind of measure out in what way it was and in what way it wasn't, but also how people ought to think about this if they want to have a charitable Christian perspective on this?
是的，绝对是。 Yeah, absolutely.
我的意思是，你说得对；这是这个历史事件的热点话题— —酷刑的使用或应用，甚至可以说酷刑的可用性，对吧？ I mean, you're right; that is kind of the hot-button topic of this historical event—the use of torture or its application or even the availability of torture, we could say, right?
所以，正如你提到的，理解历史背景和事实，区分事实和虚构是很 重要的，因为在这些情况下，关于酷刑及其使用有很多错误信息。 So, it is important, as you mentioned, to kind of understand the historical context and facts and separate facts from fiction because there's a lot of misinformation about torture and the use of torture in these instances.
其中许多涉及被酷刑折磨的人数，为什么使用酷刑 ，或者是否使用酷刑，以及其背后的全部目的。 Many of those involve the numbers of people that were tortured, why torture was utilized, or if it was even utilized, and the whole purposes behind that.
所以，我认为有几件事可以理清：情况和理解背景。 So, a couple of things I think to kind of level set right: the situation and understanding the context.
首先，必须认识到酷刑并非宗教裁判所独有；它是中世纪社会和当时整个欧洲的普遍做法。 First, it's essential to recognize that torture was not unique to the Inquisition; it was a common practice in medieval society and throughout Europe at the time.
它常常被用于各种法律体系，不仅仅是大公教会。 It was often used in various legal systems, not just by the Church.
宗教裁判所有自己的程序，但它在中世纪司法的更广泛背景 下运作，其中包括使用酷刑作为获取供词或信息的手段。 The Inquisition, while it did have its own procedures, operated within the broader context of medieval justice, which included the use of torture as a means of extracting confessions or information.
第二，宗教裁判所对酷刑的使用是有规管的。 Second, the use of torture in the Inquisition was regulated.
有具体的指导方针规定何时和如何使用酷刑。 There were specific guidelines about when and how it could be applied.
它不是不加区别的；它只应在某些情况下使用，并且有尝试限制其使用。 It wasn't indiscriminate; it was supposed to be used only in certain circumstances, and there were attempts to limit its use.
例如，宗教裁判所常常在诉诸酷刑之前，通过询问和劝说来获得供词。 For example, the Inquisition often sought to obtain confessions through questioning and persuasion before resorting to torture.
第三，宗教裁判所期间被酷刑折磨的人数常常被夸大。 Third, the numbers of people tortured during the Inquisition are often exaggerated.
虽然确实有酷刑的实例，但在大众叙述中规模常常被歪曲。 While there were certainly instances of torture, the scale is frequently misrepresented in popular narratives.
许多被告没有受到酷刑审判，宗教裁判所的主要目标往往是鼓励悔改和和解，而不是惩罚。 Many accused individuals were tried without torture, and the Inquisition's primary goal was often to encourage repentance and reconciliation rather than punishment.
最后，以历史同情心看待这个问题至关重要。 Finally, it's crucial to approach this topic with a sense of historical empathy.
理解过去人们的动机和信仰并不能为他们的行为 开脱，但确实为他们为何如此行事提供了背景。 Understanding the motivations and beliefs of people in the past doesn't excuse their actions, but it does provide context for why they acted as they did.
这种视角可以帮助我们应对历史的复杂性，并认识 到道德标准和社会规范随着时间的推移而演变。 This perspective can help us grapple with the complexities of history and recognize that moral standards and societal norms have evolved over time.
总之，虽然宗教裁判所期间使用酷刑是历史上一个困难和令人不安的方面，但必须在其历 史背景下理解它，认识到规范其使用的规章制度，并以细致入微的视角看待这一问题。 In summary, while the use of torture during the Inquisition is a difficult and troubling aspect of history, it's essential to understand it within its historical context, recognize the regulations that governed its use, and approach the topic with a nuanced perspective.
所以，我之前谈到的教宗裁判官和中世纪裁判官，在宗教裁判所历史的第一个阶段，于 1231年建立。酷刑作为一种手段——裁判官在程序中可以使用的工具——直到12 52年才获得批准。所以，在这些裁判官的最初二十年中，他们甚至没有这种手段。 So, the papal inquisitors and medieval inquisitors I talked about earlier in that first phase of this, you know, history of the Inquisition, were established in 1231. Torture as a means—a tool that was available to inquisitors to utilize during their procedures—wasn't approved for them until 1252. So, 20 years into, if you will, the initial instance of these inquisitors, that wasn't even available for them.
这是一个重要的说明：最初，大公教会根本没有打算折磨数百万人或数万人，对吧？ That's an important note to make: initially, the Church didn't set out to torture millions of people or tens of thousands of people, right, at all.
而在世俗法庭上，酷刑是处理世俗罪行的常用工具。 Whereas in secular courts, that was a very common tool used for secular crimes.
所以，我们必须理解这种区别。 So, we have to understand that distinction.
另一点是要理解，裁判官的兴起，若你愿意，是法律革命和理解法律程序的革命的一部分。 The other thing is to understand that part of the rise of the inquisitors, if you will, was a legal revolution and a revolution in terms of understanding legal procedure.
在十二世纪之前，在欧洲大部分地区——无论是在世俗法律中， 还是在教会法律中——在此之前都没有建立真正的教会法典。 Prior to the 12th century, right, in most of the places of Europe—both in secular law, if you will, and in ecclesial law, for lack of a better term—there was no established real canon law before then.
你可以指出一种称为控诉程序的程序。 You can point to the procedure known as accusatorial procedure.
其方式是，国家不去调查，教会也不去调查罪行；而是通过控诉。 The way that that happens, right, was that the state didn't go and investigate, or the Church didn't go and investigate crimes; it was by accusation.
所以，如果你伤害了我的兄弟或杀了我的兄弟，我很生 气，我会去找我的公爵或世俗领主，控告你这样做。 So, if you know you hurt my brother or killed my brother and I'm angry, I would go to my duke or my secular lord and accuse you of doing that.
然后他会召见你，你要发誓你没有做，或者承认你做了，然后给予一些惩罚。 Then he would call you up, and you would swear an oath that you didn't do it, or you would confess that you did, and then some punishment would be given.
但如果你承认你没有做，而我对此提出异议，那 么我们可以通过多种不同的方式解决，对吧？ But if you confessed you didn't, and I challenged that, then we could solve that in a multitude of different ways, right?
世俗统治者可以根据他认为准确的证词作出判断，或者我们可以通过某 种考验来解决——要么通过战斗，要么通过其他形式的考验，对吧？ The secular ruler could just make a judgment based on the testimony of who he thinks is accurate, or we can settle it through some kind of ordeal—either that, you know, by combat or through some other forms of ordeal, right?
水的考验或火的考验，其他种类的考验。 Water ordeal or fire ordeal, other kinds of things.
但在十二世纪，古罗马法律实践和法律论著确实复兴了。 But in the 12th century, there was a revival, really, of ancient Roman legal practice and legal treatises.
大公教会采用了这种做法，或许多古罗马帝国的法律实践。 The Church adopts this practice, or many of these ancient Roman legal imperial practices.
所以，它从控诉程序转变为审讯程序。 So, it moves from an accusatorial procedure to an inquisitorial procedure.
审讯程序是，国家——或至少大公教会——出去调查罪行，收 集证据，获取证词，然后在审讯程序中最重要的事情是认罪。 An inquisitorial procedure is, again, where the state—or at least the Church—goes out and investigates a crime, collects evidence, gets testimony, and then the most important thing that needs to happen in an inquisitorial procedure is confession.
有人必须承认他们犯了这个罪，对吧？ Someone has to confess that they have committed this crime, right?
他们必须承认。 They have to admit to it.
作为其中的一部分，酷刑被视为裁判官和世俗官员可以用来引出供词的工具之一。 As part of that, torture was seen as one tool with which inquisitors and secular officials could utilize to elicit a confession.
这就引出了我的最大观点：如何理解酷刑的使用。 That gets me to my biggest point here: how to understand the use of torture.
酷刑被使用了，但为什么使用，使用者如何看待他们的使用？ It was used, but why was it used, and how did they see that they were using it?
所以，酷刑——我们一听到酷刑就倾向于认为这是一种惩罚形式，人们只是 被带到宗教裁判所或世俗法庭面前，因为你不同意大公教会的教导，你就被 交给这些戴头巾的修士，他们鞭打你，殴打你，对你做各种事情，对吧？ So, torture—we tend to think of when we hear torture that it was a form of punishment, that people were just brought before the Inquisition or even secular courts, and because you disagreed with what the Church taught, then you were handed over to these hooded monks who just whipped you and beat you and did all kinds of things to you, right?
实际上，酷刑的使用常常被认为是达到目的的手段：拯救灵魂。 In reality, the use of torture was often justified by the belief that it was a means to an end: to save souls.
大公教会认为异端不仅对个人，而且对整个社区都是严重的危险。 The Church viewed heresy as a grave danger not only to the individual but to the community as a whole.
因此，观念是，如果有人犯错，迫切需要在属灵上将他们带回真理。 Therefore, the idea was that if someone was in error, it was a matter of spiritual urgency to bring them back to the truth.
酷刑被视为最后的手段，一种迫使供认的方法，可以导致悔改和与大公教会和解。 Torture was seen as a last resort, a way to compel a confession that could lead to repentance and reconciliation with the Church.
这种观点并不能为使用酷刑开脱，但确实为当时如何合理化酷刑提供了背景。 This perspective doesn't excuse the use of torture, but it does provide context for how it was rationalized at the time.
理解这种心态对于应对宗教裁判所的复杂性和那个时期的历史现实至关重要。 Understanding this mindset is crucial for grappling with the complexities of the Inquisition and the historical realities of that period.
这就是我们心中对所发生事情的印象，但那根本不是事实，对吧？ That's the image we have in our minds of what happens, but that's not what happens at all, right?
所以，它从来不是一种惩罚形式；它始终被用作引出供认的工具。 So, it was never a form of punishment; it was always utilized as a tool to elicit confession.
为裁判官实际使用酷刑制定了非常具体的限制、保障和程序。 There were very specific restrictions and safeguards and protocols put in place for inquisitors to actually utilize torture.
例如，在诉讼过程中只能使用一次。 For example, it could only be used once during the course of a proceeding.
有时间限制；在西班牙宗教裁判所，会议持续时间有时间限制。 There was a time limit; in the Spanish Inquisition, there was a time limit associated with how long the session could last.
某些人被豁免于酷刑，例如教授——我对此非常高兴 ——在某些情况下，神职人员、孕妇、老人和儿童。 Certain people were exempted from torture, such as professors—which I'm very happy about—clerics in some cases, pregnant women, the elderly, and children.
贵族成员也被豁免于酷刑。 Members of nobility were also exempted from torture.
如果他们说要对你施以酷刑，你可以在审讯程序中提出上诉；你可以对该决定提出上诉。 You could appeal later on in inquisitorial proceedings if they said they were going to torture you; you could appeal that decision.
所以，这不仅仅是某个裁判官的心血来潮；这是一个集体决定，才能使用该工具。 So, it wasn't just the whim of one inquisitor; it was a kind of collective decision that was made to be able to utilize that tool.
有趣的是，我们想到的酷刑方法——对某人施加极端暴 力，致残，杀害，暴力，血腥的事情——是不允许的。 Interestingly enough, the torture methods we think of—again, extreme violence on someone, maiming, killing, violent, bloody kinds of things—were not allowed.
事实上，酷刑方法不能破坏皮肤，不能造成任何流血，不能永久致残或伤害某人。 In fact, torture methods could not break the skin, could not cause any blood to be shed, and could not permanently maim or harm someone.
他们不能失去肢体；他们不能遭受永久的身体伤害。 They couldn't lose a limb; they couldn't suffer permanent physical damage.
再次强调，这绝不是为在这些程序中使用酷刑辩护； 重要的是保持其事实背景，以便我们理解其用途。 Again, this is not at all to justify the use of torture in these proceedings; it's important to keep the factual context around it so we understand what this was used for.
坦率地说，许多裁判官不喜欢使用它。 Many inquisitors, frankly, didn't like to use it.
伯纳德·居伊是十四世纪一位非常著名的裁判官 ，他写了一本关于如何成为好裁判官的手册。 Bernard Gui, who was a very famous inquisitor in the 14th century, wrote a manual on how to be a good inquisitor.
他不喜欢使用这种方法，也不一定推荐使用，因为他发现它非常无效。 He didn't like using the method and didn't necessarily recommend it be used because he found it to be massively ineffective.
任何人在酷刑下认罪，其目的都是为了引出供认。 Any time anybody confessed under torture, the whole point was to elicit a confession.
如果有人在酷刑下认罪，那么第二天在没有酷刑的情况下必须重复认罪，对吧？ If someone confessed under torture, then the confession had to be repeated the next day when the person was not being tortured, right?
人们理解为他们在酷刑期间所说的任何话都可能只是 为了停止酷刑而作的供认，这是完全可以理解的。 It was understood that anything they said during a torture session could just be a confession made because they wanted to stop the torture, which is completely understandable.
但它必须是出于自由意志的供认。 But it had to be a free-willed confession.
直到第二天再次问你：「你相信这是真的吗？」 Until you were asked again the next day, Do you believe this?
「你昨天说的话准确吗？」 What you said yesterday, is that accurate?
「你还坚持吗？」 Do you still hold to that?
再次强调，这并不能为酷刑辩护，但至少有助于我们理解 ，并不存在我们所联想到的那种肆意使用暴力的情况。 Again, it doesn't justify it, but at least it helps us to understand that there is not this wanton use of violence that we kind of associate it with.
还有一点我认为极其重要，那就是酷刑从未由任何神职人员执行。 Also, one other point that I think is extremely important is that torture was never performed by any cleric.
神职人员中没有人可以执行酷刑。 No one in the clerical state could perform torture.
执行酷刑的总是世俗权力的成员——世俗政权。 It was always a member of the secular authority—the secular arm—who performed the actual torture.
现在，神职人员在酷刑期间在场，包括书记员。 Now, clerics were present during the torture sessions, including scribes.
我们有证词，我们有这些会议的记录，你可以阅读 和查看，这就是我们了解很多事情的方式，对吧？ We have testimonies; we have transcripts of these sessions that you can read and look at, and that's how we know about a lot of them, right?
但这从来不是由修士、祭司或主教或类似的人施加的，这是我们通常看到的。 But it was never something that was inflicted on by a monk or by a priest or a bishop or anything like that, which we typically kind of see.
你知道，你在谷歌上搜索宗教裁判所，尤其是在谷歌的图片选项下， 这就是你看到的——所有这些戴头巾的修士或淫荡的祭司的形象，你 知道，当这些人被抽血时，他们微笑着，你知道，这些可怕的方法。 You know, you search Google for Inquisition, and especially go under the image option on Google, and that's what you see—all these images of hooded monks or salacious priests, you know, smiling as blood is being drawn out of these people and, you know, these horrible methods.
所以，确实有这些。 So, there is that indeed.
非常感谢你澄清这些事情。 Thank you so much for clarifying things like that.
但我想，如果一个人做基督徒的时间足够长，他会遇到其他事情。 But people will come across other things, I think, if someone’s a Christian for long enough.
他们会听到一些事情，可能发生过，也可能没有，但至少他们听 到教会历史中一些他们很难处理的事情，他们不知道如何理解。 They’ll hear things that have happened or maybe haven’t, but at least they hear about things in the history of the Church that are really difficult for them to deal with, and they don’t know how to make sense of it.
总的来说，当人们遇到这样的事情时，你对他们有什么建议，关于他们应该去哪里 获取信息，以及他们对教会历史中那些让他们感到困扰的信息应该持什么态度？ Just in general, when people come across things like that, what advice do you have for them in terms of where they should turn to get information, and what posture should they have towards pieces of information they learn about Church history that feel really troubling to them?
我想在我们真正开始结束之前，这将是一个有帮助的总结。 I think that would be a helpful place to kind of wrap up here before we really start to close.
是的，这是个很好的问题。 Yeah, no, fantastic question.
这是很常见的事情。 It is something that is quite frequent.
人们会读到或听到一些令人震惊、令人愤慨的事情。 People will read something or hear something that will be shocking, will be scandalous.
对我来说，教会历史绝不应该——你知道，教会历 史事件绝不应该成为使人远离信仰的东西，对吧？ For me, Church history should never be— you know, the events of Church history should never be something that leads someone away from the faith, right?
至少这不应该是对事件解释的最终结果。 At least that shouldn't be the end result of the interpretation of the event.
所以，有几点需要考虑，当你在教会历史中读到 、听到或看到一些令人震惊或愤慨的事情时。 So, a couple of points, right, to think about as you read something, hear something, or see something in Church history that's scandalous or shocking.
首先，想想我们今晚一直在谈论的内容：首先尝试理解历史背景。 First of all, think about what we've talked about all through our time together tonight: try to understand the historical context first.
所以，先从反应中退一步。 So, just take kind of an immediate step back from the reaction.
认识到你对一个事件或一个人的反应，是基于你的身份、成长经历和生活环境。 Recognize you're having a reaction to an event or a person based on who you are and how you've grown up and the circumstances in which you live.
只需认识到这不是在做出判断；只需说，认识到 那是你的反应，这很好，但要意识到这一点。 Just recognize that it's not passing judgment; just say, Recognize that that's your reaction, and that's fine, but be conscious of it.
然后采取下一步，比如说：「好吧，为什么？」 Then take the next step of, like, Okay, well, why?
为什么有人会这样做，或者为什么会发生这种事？ Why would somebody do this, or why did this happen?
然后，从他们的角度、从同时代的角度，开始进一步调查。 So then, from their perspective, from a contemporaneous perspective, begin to investigate that a little bit further.
你知道，我也总是建议，不要只读一个来源，对吧？ You know, I always recommend, too, don't read just one source, right?
寻找关于这个问题的多种视角。 Look for multiple perspectives on the issue.
寻找提供多种解释的学术著作。 Seek out scholarly works that provide a range of interpretations.
接触一手资料和可靠的二手资料。 Engage with both primary sources and reputable secondary sources.
这将帮助你对事件及其背后的动机有更细致的理解。 This will help you develop a more nuanced understanding of the events and the motivations behind them.
最后，保持谦卑和开放的姿态。 Finally, maintain a posture of humility and openness.
历史是复杂的，我们对它的理解可以随着我们了解更多而发展。 History is complex, and our understanding of it can evolve as we learn more.
面对困难的真相，持有没有立即答案的问题，这是可以的。 It's okay to grapple with difficult truths and to hold questions without immediate answers.
这个过程最终可以加深你的信仰和理解，而不是削弱它。 This process can ultimately deepen your faith and understanding rather than diminish it.
不要只读一个说法；去看多个不同的说法。 Don't just read one account; go to multiple different accounts.
看看不同的作者——看看基督徒作者，非基督徒作者。 Look at different authors—look at Christian authors, non-Christian authors.
他们在作品中如何处理这个问题，对吧？ How do they address this in their work, right?
不要只读我的书；读别人的书。 Don't just read my books; read somebody else's book.
获得不同的视角。 Get a different perspective.
我觉得这应该是常识，这不是对任何人或什么的贬低，但我知道事实并非如此。 I feel like that should be commonsensical, and this is not to be pejorative to anyone or whatever, but I know it's not.
我觉得应该是这样。 I feel like it should be.
我就是这样被培养和训练的——批判性地思考，读到资料中的某些东西 时说：「好吧，让我们验证一下这个资料，或者让我们直接看看。」 I was raised and trained that way—to think critically and to read something in a source and say, Well, let's verify that source, or Let's look at it directly.
所以，尝试不同的资料，和不同的人交谈，获得不同的视角。 So, try different sources, talk to different people, get different perspectives on it.
最终，你必须找到一个你信任的资料，希望那个资料是值得信赖的，对吧？ Ultimately, you have to come to a source that you trust, and hopefully that source is trustworthy, right?
那个资料不会只是粉饰教会历史中的某些东西。 That the source is not just going to whitewash something in Church history.
我也想说，我们需要了解我们教会的历史和在我们之前的男女的行为，并说这是有缺陷的。 I would like to say too that we need to learn about our Church's history and the actions of the men and women who have come before us and say it’s warts and all.
我的意思是，他们是罪人；他们是堕落但被救赎的受造物，就像我们一样。 I mean, they were sinners; they were fallen yet redeemed creatures just like us.
我们可以向他们学习，对吧？ We can learn from them, right?
他们行使美德的时刻和他们没有行使美德的时刻，就像我们一样。 The times they exercised virtue and the times that they didn't, just like we do.
所以，这不是值得羞愧的事情，也不是以消极的方式 感到震惊，或以导致我们失去信仰的方式感到震惊。 So, that's not something to be shameful about or to be shocked at in a negative way or in a way that leads us down a path that loses our faith.
这是对人性的认识，对吧？ It's a recognition of human nature, right?
教会中总有人性因素。 There's always a human element to the Church.
我的意思是，我们这些有信仰的人知道，教会也有属神的特质，但最 确定的是人性因素，这就是我们在教会历史中主要研究的，对吧？ I mean, those of us who have faith know that there's a divine element to the Church as well, but there's most assuredly a human element, and that's what we study mostly in Church history, right?
德鲁，我最后要推荐的就是，你知道，对于任何丑闻， 归根结底，作为基督徒，我们相信并持守耶稣基督。 The last thing I would recommend, Drew, is just, you know, with anything that's scandalous, at the end of the day, right, as Christians, we believe and we hold to the person of Jesus Christ.
所以，那是我的信仰。 So, that's my faith.
我的信仰在于基督，我的信仰不在于人，对吧？ My faith is in Christ; my faith is not in men, right?
我可以因圣徒和在我之前的男女，以及那些没有这样做的人而在信仰上得到鼓励。 I can be emboldened in my faith by the saints and the men and women who have come before me, by people who didn't do that.
但归根结底，我必须把自己扎根于基督，意识到我跟随的是他和他的教会， 而不是某个特定的圣徒或某个特定的教宗或某个特定的骑士或其他什么。 But at the end of the day, I have to root myself back in Christ and realize that I'm following Him and His Church, and I'm not following, you know, this particular saint or this particular pope or this particular knight or this particular whatever.
是基督。 It's Christ.
说得好！ Well said!
好，史蒂夫，这真是太高兴了。 Well, Steve, this has been an absolute joy.
我们在这里以四个快问快答来结束，这些问题毫无创意地被称为 「最后四个」，只需一句话或一句话回答——甚至可能一个词。 We'll wrap up here with kind of four rapid-fire questions that are very uncreatively called the Final Four, and these are just kind of one phrase or one sentence answers—perhaps even one word.
第一个是：在你的生活中，最有成效的习惯或属灵操练是什么？ The first is just: what has been the most fruitful habit or spiritual discipline in your life?
对我来说，作为天主教徒，真正的就是告解圣事。 Yeah, so for me, that's really, as a Catholic, the sacrament of confession.
我发现它有时是骄傲的解药，它让我在自己的生活中有一个专注的自我反省。 I find it to be an antidote to pride sometimes, and it gives me a focused element of self-reflection in my own life.
所以，对我来说，这在我的一生中确实非常有属灵益处。 So, for me, that's really been very spiritually beneficial throughout my life.
除了圣经，哪本书对你的生活影响最大？ Outside the Bible, what has been the most impactful book on your life?
是谢尔顿·范奥肯的《严厉的怜悯》。 So, it's A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken.
如果你还没读过，我强烈推荐。 If you haven't read that, I highly recommend it.
如果你能给年轻时刚开始研究教会历史的自己一条建议，那会是什么？ If you could give your younger self one piece of advice when you were kind of first setting out on this journey of investigating Church history, what piece of advice would that be?
我无法填满那多余的十秒钟或什么的，所以有两件事：一是更注意语言学习 ——真正更专注于语言学习，更认真对待这些，并让自己接触不同的语言。 I can't fulfill that extra 10 seconds or something, so two things: one is to be more mindful of language studies—really focus much more on language studies and take those more seriously, and expose yourself to different languages.
所以，那是我想做的一件事。 So, that would be one thing I would like to do.
给年轻时的自己的另一个建议是，我想可以这样说，就是要有更厚的脸皮。 The other suggestion to my younger self is to, I guess, one way to put it is to grow a thicker skin.
我的意思是，你知道，总会有批评者。 What I mean by that is, you know, there's always a critic.
无论你做什么，批评者总是会批评你的工作。 Critics are always going to be people who criticize your work in whatever you do.
年轻的史蒂夫会收到一封电子邮件或某种形式的批评，就想对那个人大发雷霆，对吧？ Younger Steve would get an email or some form of criticism and just want to go nuclear on that person, right?
告诉他们他们完全错了，写所有这些邮件，等等等等。 Show them how they're totally wrong and write all these emails and yada yada yada.
年长的史蒂夫已经学会，有些事情不值得为之奋斗。 Older Steve has learned that some of those just aren't worth dying on.
你知道，总会有批评者，你无法改变他们。 You know, there's always a critic, and you're not going to change them.
如果他们觉得有必要给你发邮件，因为他们对你写的东 西感到愤怒，可能他们的生活中还有其他事情发生。 If they felt the need to email you because they're angry at something you wrote, there's probably something else going on in their lives.
所以，年长的史蒂夫现在为那个人祈祷，而不是想用邮件敲打他们的头。 So, the older Steve prays for that person now instead of wanting to hammer them over the head with an email.
那是一个更好的反应。 That is a much better reaction.
最后一个问题是我喜欢问所有嘉宾的。 The final question is one I delight in asking all my guests.
它围绕着这个频道名为「福音的单纯」这个概念，而我常被指出这些话题有点复杂。 It centers around the idea that this channel is named Gospel Simplicity, and it's very often pointed out to me that the topics can be a bit on the complex side.
所以，为了把它带回频道的名字，用一句话说，什么是福音？ So, to kind of bring it back to the name of the channel, in one sentence, what is the Gospel?
是的，福音就是在耶稣基督的爱和自由中与神同行。 Yes, so the Gospel is walking with God in the love and freedom of Jesus Christ.
这是我的回答。 That's my response.
说得好！ Well said!
好，史蒂夫，非常感谢你；这真是太愉快了。 Well, Steve, thank you so much; this has been an absolute pleasure.
谢谢你，奥斯汀；我非常感激！ Thank you, Austin; I appreciate it so much!
嘿，如果你喜欢这个视频——嗯，看起来你是喜欢的，因为你 看到了这里——也许你只是忘了点赞，把它放在后台播放。 Hey, if you enjoyed this video—and well, it seems like you did because you made it this far—maybe you just forgot to hit like, and you left it running in the background.
但我想你是喜欢的，YouTube也认为你会 喜欢，所以YouTube一般什么都知道。 But I think you've enjoyed it, and YouTube thinks you'd enjoy this, so YouTube generally knows everything.
你应该试试。 You should probably try that.
如果你还没有订阅，你可以在这里订阅，那会非常酷。 And if you haven't subscribed, well, you can do that here, and it would be super cool.
如果你喜欢这些视频并想支持这个频道，你可以去patr eon.com/gospelsimplicity， If you're enjoying these videos and you want to support the channel, you can go to patreon.com/gospelsimplicity,
链接在下面的描述中，你可以支持这个频道。 and the link is in the description down below, and you can support the channel.
那就太棒了！ That'd be awesome!