- start: 0.209
  end: 1.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Dr. Hahn, lovely to have you on the show.
  zh: 汉恩博士，很高兴您能参加节目。
- start: 1.79
  end: 2.83
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Thanks for being here.
  zh: 感谢您的到来。
- start: 2.83
  end: 4.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Great to be with you, neighbor.
  zh: 很高兴和您在一起，邻居。
- start: 4.171
  end: 5.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yes, exactly.
  zh: 是的，正是如此。
- start: 5.252
  end: 6.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a month and a half now.
  zh: 已经一个半月了。
- start: 6.872
  end: 7.133
  speaker: unknown
  en: Nice.
  zh: 很好。
- start: 7.133
  end: 8.053
  speaker: unknown
  en: I've been in Steubenville.
  zh: 我一直在斯图本维尔。
- start: 8.053
  end: 9.294
  speaker: unknown
  en: I'm absolutely loving it.
  zh: 我非常喜欢这里。
- start: 9.294
  end: 12.195
  speaker: unknown
  en: You can't throw a rock without hitting a good Catholic family.
  zh: 你随便扔块石头都会砸到一个好的天主教家庭。
- start: 12.195
  end: 14.056000000000001
  speaker: unknown
  en: You shouldn't throw a rock.
  zh: 你不应该扔石头。
- start: 15.777
  end: 16.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, thanks for the invite.
  zh: 感谢您的邀请。
- start: 16.877
  end: 18.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's great to be here in your studio.
  zh: 很高兴能来到您的演播室。
- start: 18.478
  end: 19.159
  speaker: unknown
  en: Yeah, yeah.
  zh: 是的，是的。
- start: 19.159
  end: 20.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Honored to have you on the show.
  zh: 很荣幸您能参加节目。
- start: 20.199
  end: 28.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, there's a new crop of people out there who are considering Catholicism, who are tempted, they might put it, by Catholicism.
  zh: 您知道，现在有一批新人正在考虑天主教，他们可能会说是被天主教吸引。
- start: 28.621
  end: 36.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I thought, it's probably been a while since you have shared your story to a large crowd, a large audience, about your own conversion to Catholicism.
  zh: 我想，您可能有一段时间没有向大批观众分享您皈依天主教的故事了。
- start: 36.343
  end: 40.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because I know you've written how many books since Rome Sweet Home?
  zh: 因为我知道自从《罗马甜蜜的家》以来，您写了多少本书？
- start: 40.425
  end: 42.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Somewhere between 40 and 50. That's beautiful.
  zh: 大约四十到五十本。真是太好了。
- start: 42.445
  end: 43.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, maybe more.
  zh: 是的，也许更多。
- start: 43.665
  end: 44.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I don't know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 44.026
  end: 45.266
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I don't keep track.
  zh: 我没有记录。
- start: 45.426
  end: 49.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I read Rome Sweet Home when I was serving as a missionary in Canada.
  zh: 我在加拿大做传教士时读了《罗马甜蜜的家》。
- start: 49.147
  end: 49.947
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh, wow.
  zh: 哦，哇。
- start: 49.947
  end: 52.386
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I just remember being really moved by it.
  zh: 我记得被它深深感动。
- start: 52.386
  end: 53.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There were certain things in it that struck me.
  zh: 其中有些内容让我印象深刻。
- start: 53.867
  end: 55.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm sure you get told this repeatedly.
  zh: 我相信您经常听到这样的反馈。
- start: 55.548
  end: 57.95
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How's that book of yours, Rome Sweet Home, doing?
  zh: 您的那本书《罗马甜蜜的家》怎么样了？
- start: 58.591
  end: 59.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Again, I don't know.
  zh: 我还是不知道。
- start: 59.331
  end: 60.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's sold over a million.
  zh: 它已经卖出了一百多万本。
- start: 60.592
  end: 62.914
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's in about 25 different languages.
  zh: 它被翻译成大约二十五种语言。
- start: 63.034
  end: 64.475
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It took us three weeks to write.
  zh: 我们花了三个星期来写。
- start: 64.475
  end: 67.677
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was really therapy for us as a married couple.
  zh: 对我们这对夫妻来说，这真是一种治疗。
- start: 67.698
  end: 72.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We laughed, we cried, we prayed, we apologized and forgave each other.
  zh: 我们笑过，哭过，祷告过，互相道歉并原谅对方。
- start: 72.341
  end: 73.882
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She promised it would take three days.
  zh: 她承诺只需要三天。
- start: 73.882
  end: 75.863
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was surprised that it took three weeks.
  zh: 我很惊讶竟然花了三个星期。
- start: 76.365
  end: 81.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We're coming up to our 30th anniversary, I think, in 2023 for the book, that is.
  zh: 我想，到了2023年，这本书就要迎来三十周年了。
- start: 81.946
  end: 83.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We've been married 41 years.
  zh: 我们已经结婚四十一年了。
- start: 83.946
  end: 87.367
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the book itself just took on a life of its own.
  zh: 但这本书本身却有了自己的生命。
- start: 87.367
  end: 90.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I've never gone back and reread a single section.
  zh: 我从未回去重读过任何一节。
- start: 90.088
  end: 99.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Editing was kind of hard, but it originally started with a transcript of a talk that we gave in tandem down in Louisiana, Baton Rouge if memory serves.
  zh: 编辑有点困难，但最初是从我们在路易斯安那州巴吞鲁日的一次联合演讲的记录开始的。
- start: 99.409
  end: 107.905
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it went so well that  When it was taped, we heard later on that somebody had transcribed the whole thing, and so we got a copy of that.
  zh: 效果非常好，后来我们听说有人把整个演讲都转录了下来，于是我们得到了一个副本。
- start: 107.946
  end: 114.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that was the rough, rough draft of Rome's Sweet Home, because we would go back and forth, and we never thought about writing a book.
  zh: 那就是《罗马甜蜜的家》的粗略草稿，因为我们来回讨论，从未想过要写一本书。
- start: 114.431
  end: 120.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We never thought about dividing it up into chapters that, you know, his and her, that sort of thing.
  zh: 我们从未想过要把它分成章节，比如他的和她的那种。
- start: 120.216
  end: 127.262
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The grace of God is just, you know, what was once a little trickle, you know, has now become a river of one.
  zh: 神的恩典就像曾经的小溪流，如今已成为一条大河。
- start: 127.262
  end: 133.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was just talking to a friend recently about what it was like in 86.  To come into the church.
  zh: 我最近刚和一个朋友谈起1986年加入教会的情形。
- start: 133.247
  end: 146.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, Tom Howard had come in in 85 very quietly, and I had known about that, but for about 10 years it looked more likely that he would go Russian Orthodox than at the last minute.
  zh: 汤姆·霍华德在85年非常安静地加入了，我知道这件事，但大约十年间，他看起来更有可能加入俄罗斯东正教，直到最后一刻。
- start: 146.139
  end: 150.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He was reading Newman and other things, and so he decided to go Catholic.
  zh: 他在读纽曼和其他东西，于是决定加入天主教。
- start: 150.963
  end: 154.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I didn't actually find out about it until a few months after it happened.
  zh: 我直到事情发生几个月后才知道。
- start: 154.871
  end: 163.415
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But back then, you know, in the 80s, it was as unthinkable as, like, the chairman of the GOP defecting to the Soviet Union or something, you know.
  zh: 但在80年代，那时这件事就像共和党主席叛逃到苏联一样不可思议。
- start: 163.435
  end: 173.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was such a, you know, it was not only unthinkable, it was like the reverse, because the Catholics were becoming evangelical Protestants back then, you know, in droves still.
  zh: 这不仅是不可思议的，简直是反过来的，因为那时天主教徒成群结队地成为福音派新教徒。
- start: 173.3
  end: 184.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: This would be 86, but in the 70s and up until 86,  And you could count on one hand the number of apostolates, you know, like EWTN was just getting started.
  zh: 这是86年，但在70年代直到86年，你可以用一只手数出使徒团体的数量，比如EWTN刚刚起步。
- start: 184.936
  end: 187.797
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Catholic Answers was still mostly a fledgling group.
  zh: 天主教答疑仍然主要是一个新兴团体。
- start: 188.098
  end: 189.818
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm not sure what else there was.
  zh: 我不确定还有什么其他的。
- start: 189.818
  end: 191.679
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Ignatius Press had just begun.
  zh: 依纳爵出版社刚刚开始。
- start: 191.96
  end: 204.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But there wasn't much else, except if you liked old books as much as I did, you know, then you could spend hours in used bookstores and read your way almost, you know, all the way to Rome.
  zh: 但除此之外没有太多，除非你像我一样喜欢旧书，那你可以在旧书店里花上几个小时，几乎一路读到罗马。
- start: 204.383
  end: 210.726
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So would you say that the anti-Catholicism, if you want to use that language, was more prominent in the 70s and 80s?
  zh: 那么你会说，如果你想用这个词，反天主教在70年代和80年代更为突出吗？
- start: 210.726
  end: 212.587
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It doesn't feel like that so much today.
  zh: 今天感觉不太像那样。
- start: 212.587
  end: 220.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No, it doesn't. I mean, converting to the Catholic Church is no longer a seismic event, you know, picking up on the Protestant Richard scale.
  zh: 不，不是的。我是说，皈依天主教会不再是一个震撼事件，不再像新教的里氏震级那样。
- start: 220.912
  end: 223.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Would you have considered yourself an anti-Catholic?
  zh: 你曾经认为自己是反天主教的吗？
- start: 223.533
  end: 224.934
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what does that word even mean?
  zh: 这个词到底是什么意思？
- start: 224.934
  end: 227.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, okay, so in the 70s...
  zh: 是的，好吧，那么在70年代……
- start: 228.616
  end: 246.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I experienced the grace of a young adult conversion when I was almost 14. I'd already spent about a year and a half in a series of juvenile court hearings for sales and possession, breaking and entering, mail fraud, forgery, and all of the other things that I won't go into  My mother said, yeah.
  zh: 我在快14岁时经历了年轻时的皈依恩典。我已经在一系列少年法庭听证会上度过了一年半的时间，涉及销售和持有、入室盗窃、邮件欺诈、伪造以及其他我不想详细说明的事情。我母亲说，是的。
- start: 246.035
  end: 248.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then I found Christ, or he found me.
  zh: 然后我找到了基督，或者说他找到了我。
- start: 248.137
  end: 257.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I was living in Pittsburgh, and that was sort of the bastion of evangelical reformed Calvinist Protestantism.
  zh: 我住在匹兹堡，那是福音派改革宗加尔文主义新教的堡垒。
- start: 257.582
  end: 263.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: R.C. Sproul was just setting up the Ligonier Valley Study Center there before moving it down to Orlando.
  zh: R.C. 斯普劳尔正在那里建立利戈尼尔山谷研究中心，然后搬到奥兰多。
- start: 263.446
  end: 270.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I was driving out to see him and to hear his Bible study, but he also had this thing called a gab fest.
  zh: 我开车去见他，听他的圣经研究，但他还有一个叫做闲聊会的活动。
- start: 270.351
  end: 276.735
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it was about an hour drive, and I just looked forward to it week after week as a sophomore in high school.
  zh: 大约一个小时的车程，我作为高中的二年级学生，每周都期待着。
- start: 276.755
  end: 283.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then he introduced me to Dr. Gershner, his mentor, who had a PhD from Harvard and taught at the seminary in Pittsburgh.
  zh: 然后他介绍我认识了他的导师格什纳博士，他拥有哈佛大学的博士学位，并在匹兹堡的神学院任教。
- start: 283.599
  end: 291.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And, I mean, these guys weren't just Protestant, they weren't just non-Catholic, they were as anti-Catholic as you could come, but it wasn't bigotry, prejudice, and hate.
  zh: 我意思是，这些人不仅仅是新教徒，他们不仅仅是非天主教徒，他们是你能遇到的最反天主教的人，但这不是偏执、偏见和仇恨。
- start: 291.324
  end: 295.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was just, you know, the sense that the Pope claims to be infallible.
  zh: 只是因为，教宗声称自己无误。
- start: 295.086
  end: 299.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, the head of the Methodist Church doesn't.  Nobody else does.
  zh: 你知道，循道宗的领袖没有这样做。没有其他人这样做。
- start: 299.548
  end: 304.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If this guy is not what he claims to be, then there's a spiritual tyranny, a web of deceit.
  zh: 如果这个人不是他所声称的那样，那么就是一种属灵的暴政，一个欺骗的网络。
- start: 304.909
  end: 316.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: First of all, I'm not really sure what you mean by anti-Catholic, because as you say, if somebody looks at the claims of the Catholic Church and thinks they're false, then they should want to help you reject those false things.
  zh: 首先，我不太确定你所说的反天主教是什么意思，因为正如你所说，如果有人看了天主教会的主张并认为它们是错误的，那么他们应该想帮助你拒绝那些错误的东西。
- start: 317.532
  end: 319.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what do you mean by anti-Catholic?
  zh: 那么你所说的反天主教是什么意思？
- start: 319.292
  end: 321.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because sometimes I think we throw that around, it's a little unfair.
  zh: 因为有时我觉得我们随意使用这个词，有点不公平。
- start: 321.873
  end: 326.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Someone just looks at Catholicism and says, I'm not anti-Catholic, it's just false, and I want you to know the truth.
  zh: 有人只是看着天主教说，我不是反天主教，只是它是错误的，我想让你知道真相。
- start: 326.054
  end: 327.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Good question.
  zh: 好问题。
- start: 327.162
  end: 336.33
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, in looking back on the 70s, I think there were at least three identifiable types of anti-Catholicism.
  zh: 回顾70年代，我认为至少有三种可以识别的反天主教类型。
- start: 336.331
  end: 338.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think mine was the minority report.
  zh: 我认为我的观点是少数派报告。
- start: 338.753
  end: 348.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That was Sproul and Gerstner, which tapped into the majority report of the Protestant Reformation because Calvin and Luther and Zwingli and Knox disagreed on all kinds of things.
  zh: 那是斯普劳尔和格什纳，他们触及了新教改革的多数派报告，因为加尔文、路德、慈运理和诺克斯在各种事情上都存在分歧。
- start: 348.806
  end: 353.228
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the one thing they all shared in common was this conviction that the Pope is the Antichrist.
  zh: 但他们共同的信念是教宗是敌基督。
- start: 353.228
  end: 360.35
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And not just heretical, but I mean pretentiously, diabolically heretical.
  zh: 不仅仅是异端，我是说自命不凡，邪恶的异端。
- start: 362.231
  end: 368.333
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, likewise the Eucharist, they don't just celebrate the Eucharist, they worship the Eucharist.
  zh: 同样地，圣餐，他们不仅仅是庆祝圣餐，他们是敬拜圣餐。
- start: 368.333
  end: 376.796
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And if that's just a wafer, a profound and sacred symbol, but nothing more, then most forms of idolatry are not as debased as that.
  zh: 如果那只是一块饼干，一个深刻而神圣的象征，但仅此而已，那么大多数形式的偶像崇拜都没有那么卑劣。
- start: 378.055
  end: 389.803
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Then the Blessed Virgin Mary and I don't want to get me started because it just seemed like Mariolatry and so it was the settled conviction that these beliefs were so contrary to scripture it wasn't even worth talking about.
  zh: 然后是圣母马利亚，我不想开始谈论，因为这看起来就像是马利亚崇拜，因此这些信念与圣经如此相悖，以至于不值得谈论。
- start: 389.803
  end: 392.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was so beyond the pale.
  zh: 这实在是超出了界限。
- start: 392.485
  end: 412.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There was another anti-Catholicism too that stemmed from the 50s and the 60s as American culture was assimilating the Catholic population but it wasn't altogether clear how Catholics would relate to  The pluralistic liberal democracy that America was.
  zh: 还有另一种反天主教主义，源于50年代和60年代，当时美国文化正在同化天主教人口，但尚不清楚天主教徒将如何与美国的多元自由民主制度相处。
- start: 412.189
  end: 417.89
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There was a political form of that, and especially it came to head when JFK was running for president.
  zh: 有一种政治形式的反天主教主义，尤其是在肯尼迪竞选总统时达到高潮。
- start: 417.91
  end: 420.03
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, will he take his orders from the Pope?
  zh: 那么，他会听命于教宗吗？
- start: 420.03
  end: 433.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then there was another type that my parents had, especially my mom, and that was a cultural anti-Catholicism where the Irish need not apply, or the Italians.
  zh: 还有一种是我父母，尤其是我母亲所持有的文化反天主教主义，认为爱尔兰人或意大利人不必申请。
- start: 433.173
  end: 438.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so these cultural Catholics  Subtitles by the Amara.org
  zh: 因此，这些文化上的天主教徒  字幕由Amara.org提供
- start: 438.209
  end: 465.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: community  Fair enough.
  zh: 社区  说得对。
- start: 465.421
  end: 472.866
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How did you start hearing about Catholicism, and when did you start to change your opinion about it?
  zh: 你是如何开始听说天主教的，又是什么时候开始改变对它的看法的？
- start: 473.247
  end: 475.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, I mean, that was a gradual process.
  zh: 是的，我的意思是，那是一个渐进的过程。
- start: 475.088
  end: 479.591
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, I was never as anti-Catholic as I was pro-Scripture.
  zh: 你知道，我从来没有像支持圣经那样反对天主教。
- start: 480.051
  end: 481.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I loved the Word of God.
  zh: 我热爱神的道。
- start: 481.552
  end: 484.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I wanted to live under the Lordship of Christ.
  zh: 我想生活在基督的主权之下。
- start: 484.454
  end: 487.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I believed that the Word of God was inspired.
  zh: 我相信神的道是默示的。
- start: 487.877
  end: 489.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was without error.
  zh: 它是无误的。
- start: 489.217
  end: 491.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It had to be interpreted in a responsible way.
  zh: 必须以负责任的方式来解释。
- start: 492.008
  end: 495.429
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I basically wanted a biblical worldview.
  zh: 但我基本上想要一个圣经的世界观。
- start: 495.61
  end: 502.973
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so in high school, I remember writing my senior paper on Martin Luther for an English class, 10-page requirement.
  zh: 所以在高中时，我记得为英语课写了一篇关于马丁·路德的毕业论文，要求是十页。
- start: 502.973
  end: 505.214
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, I think mine was 24 pages long.
  zh: 你知道，我的论文好像有24页长。
- start: 505.214
  end: 506.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: This is in high school?
  zh: 这是在高中吗？
- start: 506.114
  end: 507.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In high school, yeah.
  zh: 在高中，是的。
- start: 507.035
  end: 508.915
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And you're supposed to have like three sources.
  zh: 你应该有大约三个来源。
- start: 508.915
  end: 510.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think I had almost 30 sources.
  zh: 我想我有将近三十个来源。
- start: 510.536
  end: 516.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I just wanted to evangelize my English professor, Ms. Dengler, and all my friends who might read it.
  zh: 我只是想向我的英语教授邓格勒女士和所有可能读到它的朋友传福音。
- start: 516.479
  end: 517.239
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Quick question.
  zh: 快速提问。
- start: 517.239
  end: 519.32
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, you said you had a conversion in your high school years.
  zh: 我的意思是，你说你在高中时有过皈依。
- start: 519.32
  end: 521.561
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What did your parents think of this conversion?
  zh: 你的父母对这种皈依有什么看法？
- start: 522.06
  end: 528.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They were relieved to be out of all of these hearings.
  zh: 他们很高兴能摆脱所有这些听证会。
- start: 528.564
  end: 535.288
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And my mother began to slowly kind of follow me in the path of conversion.
  zh: 而我母亲开始慢慢地跟随我走上皈依的道路。
- start: 535.309
  end: 540.052
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was gradual because she had had some kind of experience back in high school that she just abandoned.
  zh: 这是一个渐进的过程，因为她在高中时有过某种经历，但她放弃了。
- start: 540.052
  end: 542.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She thought she grew out of it, just a phase.
  zh: 她以为自己长大了，只是一个阶段。
- start: 542.493
  end: 552.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so when she saw it not only happening but  But growing in me, I think that she was sort of drawn to it, but she was also reminiscing about it.
  zh: 所以当她看到它不仅发生在我身上，而且在我身上成长时，我想她有点被吸引，但她也在回忆。
- start: 552.364
  end: 557.507
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so she would talk about her experience back in high school as I was going through mine.
  zh: 所以当我经历我的皈依时，她会谈论她在高中时的经历。
- start: 557.547
  end: 559.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But mine was much more intellectual.
  zh: 但我的经历更具知识性。
- start: 559.188
  end: 562.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I remember reading The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther in 10th grade.
  zh: 我记得在十年级时读过马丁·路德的《意志的捆绑》。
- start: 562.951
  end: 566.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The Five Points of Calvinism by Steele and Thomas in 10th grade.
  zh: 在十年级时读过斯蒂尔和托马斯的《加尔文主义五要点》。
- start: 566.293
  end: 568.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Sharing it with my friends, upperclassmen.
  zh: 与我的朋友们，高年级学生分享。
- start: 568.315
  end: 572.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Not just evangelizing them, but theologizing them.
  zh: 不仅是向他们传福音，而是向他们传授神学。
- start: 572.858
  end: 574.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so it was just...
  zh: 所以这只是……
- start: 575.18
  end: 585.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't just a head trip because I had, I mean, Christ filled my heart with not only the Holy Spirit, but I mean, with a love for the truth.
  zh: 这不仅仅是头脑的旅行，因为基督不仅用圣灵充满了我的心，还充满了对真理的爱。
- start: 585.328
  end: 595.575
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And you know, if I were to trace the trajectory from then until now, I think that I still have that love for the truth that would take me almost anywhere.
  zh: 你知道，如果我追溯从那时到现在的轨迹，我想我仍然有那种对真理的爱，可以带我去任何地方。
- start: 595.755
  end: 604.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But now what I've discovered, and really I discovered in the process of becoming Catholic after seminary, and that is the truth that I love is the truth of love.
  zh: 但现在我发现的，实际上是在神学院后成为天主教徒的过程中发现的，那就是我所爱的真理是爱的真理。
- start: 605.307
  end: 611.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Not the love of the 60s, what you spelled, you know, L-U-V, peace, love, you know, Woodstock and all of that.
  zh: 不是60年代的那种爱，你知道的，L-U-V，和平，爱，伍德斯托克等等。
- start: 611.271
  end: 615.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because I must be honest, I despise that word love.
  zh: 因为我必须诚实地说，我厌恶那个词“爱”。
- start: 615.334
  end: 620.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm just, you know, love means never having to say you're sorry, love, all of that stuff in the late 60s and 70s.
  zh: 我只是，你知道，爱意味着永远不必说对不起，爱，所有那些60年代末和70年代的东西。
- start: 621.197
  end: 630.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Besides, R.C. Sproul had given a series of talks that just put me in their grip, the holiness of God, and he focused on Isaiah 6. Holy, holy, holy.
  zh: 此外，R.C. 斯普劳尔做了一系列演讲，让我深受其影响，关于神的圣洁，他专注于以赛亚书第六章：圣哉，圣哉，圣哉。
- start: 630.929
  end: 633.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Not love, love, love.
  zh: 不是爱，爱，爱。
- start: 634.41
  end: 647.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But what you discover, at least what I've discovered, is that the truth that I love and wanted to read and study and understand much better ultimately led me to the fact that the Trinity is not just true.
  zh: 但你发现的，至少我发现的，是我所爱的并想要更好地阅读、研究和理解的真理最终引导我认识到三位一体不仅仅是真实的。
- start: 647.674
  end: 650.995
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The Trinity is truth, but the Trinity is eternal love.
  zh: 三位一体是真理，但三位一体是永恒的爱。
- start: 651.107
  end: 655.35
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: This interpersonal communion of love.
  zh: 这是爱的相交。
- start: 655.971
  end: 661.675
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: God is not an eternal creator, because however old creation is, it's not eternal.
  zh: 神不是永恒的创造者，因为无论创造有多古老，它都不是永恒的。
- start: 661.675
  end: 662.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: God is eternal.
  zh: 神是永恒的。
- start: 662.615
  end: 664.076
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So what is God eternally?
  zh: 那么神永恒的是什么？
- start: 664.076
  end: 679.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, the Trinity is the only God there is, and the Trinity is the only thing God eternally is, and so to discover a communion of love, then suddenly what he does to redeem us  How he fills us with the Spirit, why he divinizes us, and all of that.
  zh: 那么，三位一体是唯一的神，三位一体是神永恒的唯一存在，因此发现爱的相交，突然之间，他如何救赎我们，如何用圣灵充满我们，为什么使我们神化，所有这些。
- start: 679.871
  end: 690.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's like those dominoes eventually fell into place, but boy, when you're looking at them, you're realizing the good news that I believed back as a teenager just keeps getting better.
  zh: 就像那些多米诺骨牌最终落到位，但当你看着它们时，你意识到我在青少年时期相信的好消息变得越来越好。
- start: 690.558
  end: 696.601
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Without rhetorical exaggeration, it's more real, it's more beautiful, it's more powerful.
  zh: 毫不夸张地说，它更真实，更美丽，更有力量。
- start: 696.761
  end: 698.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I'm fast-forwarding, I should go back.
  zh: 但我快进了，我应该回去。
- start: 698.402
  end: 700.824
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What was it about Catholicism that first struck you?
  zh: 天主教的什么最初打动了你？
- start: 700.824
  end: 707.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You were anti-Catholic in college,  What was the first thing that happened that you began thinking, okay, wow, they got that one right?
  zh: 你在大学时是反天主教的，是什么事情让你开始想，好吧，哇，他们那个是对的？
- start: 707.622
  end: 709.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, that didn't happen in college.
  zh: 是的，那不是在大学发生的。
- start: 709.744
  end: 718.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In college, I had an experience my freshman year with Dr. Vande Capelli, who had just come from Princeton, and he gave a course on biblical theology.
  zh: 在大学时，我大一时与刚从普林斯顿来的范德卡佩利博士有过一次经历，他开了一门圣经神学课程。
- start: 718.211
  end: 723.695
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: At the same time, all of my classmates were rushing off to this Pentecostal church to get rebaptized.
  zh: 与此同时，我所有的同学都急着去这个五旬节教会重新受洗。
- start: 724.497
  end: 727.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I was going to join them, too, because I don't remember being baptized as an infant.
  zh: 我也打算加入他们，因为我不记得自己在婴儿时受过洗。
- start: 727.919
  end: 729.821
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It didn't mean anything to me then or now.
  zh: 那时或现在对我来说都没有意义。
- start: 730.225
  end: 732.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so my professor challenged me, look into it.
  zh: 于是我的教授挑战我，去研究一下。
- start: 732.927
  end: 733.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, study scripture.
  zh: 我的意思是，研究圣经。
- start: 733.928
  end: 735.289
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Don't just follow your emotions.
  zh: 不要仅仅跟随你的情绪。
- start: 735.289
  end: 742.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I worked on the major research paper for his course on circumcision of the old, baptism in the new.
  zh: 于是我为他的课程写了一篇关于旧约割礼和新约洗礼的主要研究论文。
- start: 742.014
  end: 743.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's administered to infants then.
  zh: 那时是施行给婴儿的。
- start: 744.095
  end: 746.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Is it administered to infants now?
  zh: 现在是施行给婴儿的吗？
- start: 746.597
  end: 756.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And covenant became so obviously the key that would unlock that and answer the question that God would not include infants in the Old Covenant and suddenly exclude infants.
  zh: 约显然成为解开这个问题的关键，回答了神不会在旧约中包括婴儿然后突然排除婴儿的问题。
- start: 756.343
  end: 762.106
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Flesh that out, no pun intended, for those who aren't familiar with this sort of parallel between circumcision and baptism.
  zh: 详细说明一下，没有双关语的意思，给那些不熟悉割礼和洗礼之间这种平行关系的人。
- start: 762.106
  end: 773.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, so the sign of the covenant that was given to Abraham in Genesis 17 was for all of the male children at the age of eight days  To be circumcised.
  zh: 是的，所以在创世记第十七章中给亚伯拉罕的约的记号是所有八天大的男孩都要受割礼。
- start: 773.346
  end: 776.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so they would cut off the foreskin of the male generative organ.
  zh: 于是他们会割去男性生殖器的包皮。
- start: 776.668
  end: 777.848
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'll leave it at that.
  zh: 我就说到这里。
- start: 778.189
  end: 780.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that was the sign of the covenant.
  zh: 那就是约的记号。
- start: 780.27
  end: 784.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was a sign and seal of faith, as Paul describes it in Romans.
  zh: 正如保罗在罗马书中所描述的，这是信心的记号和印记。
- start: 784.372
  end: 785.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Abraham's faith.
  zh: 亚伯拉罕的信心。
- start: 785.813
  end: 791.637
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And anybody who is 99 years old and consents to circumcision must have a lot of faith.
  zh: 任何99岁并同意受割礼的人一定有很大的信心。
- start: 792.858
  end: 806.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So when you look at how circumcision is practiced, and to this day,  If you talk to an Orthodox Jew, the Hebrew word for covenant, b'rit, or they pronounce it b'ris, is the word that is basically circumcision.
  zh: 所以当你看割礼是如何施行的，直到今天，如果你和一个正统犹太人交谈，希伯来语中的“约”这个词，b'rit，或他们发音为b'ris，基本上就是割礼的意思。
- start: 806.715
  end: 811.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So when you use the Hebrew word b'ris or b'rit, it is synonymous with circumcision.
  zh: 所以当你使用希伯来词b'ris或b'rit时，它与割礼同义。
- start: 811.857
  end: 821.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It is not just the entry, it is the whole structure of living out the obligations of the covenant that you accepted when you were circumcised.
  zh: 这不仅仅是进入，而是整个履行你在受割礼时接受的约的义务的结构。
- start: 821.042
  end: 825.744
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's also living up to the family into which you've been born, their values.
  zh: 这也是对你出生的家庭及其价值观的体现。
- start: 825.939
  end: 829.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So for 2,000 years, circumcision is practiced.
  zh: 所以两千年来，割礼一直在施行。
- start: 829.782
  end: 850.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then Jesus institutes baptism, you know, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28. And so when Peter preaches the very first sermon at Pentecost in Acts 2, repent, believe, and be baptized for the promise is to you and your children and to those who are far off.
  zh: 然后耶稣设立洗礼，你知道的，使万民作门徒，奉父、子、圣灵的名给他们施洗，见于马太福音28章。因此，当彼得在使徒行传2章五旬节讲第一篇道时，说悔改，信而受洗，因为这应许是给你们和你们的儿女，并一切在远方的人。
- start: 851.308
  end: 863.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, if you were bringing your kids up to get baptized at Pentecost in Acts 2, you know, Peter would not have said, wait, when I said the promises to you and to your children, I didn't mean that they would get baptized.
  zh: 你知道，如果你在使徒行传2章五旬节带孩子来受洗，彼得不会说，等等，当我说应许是给你们和你们的儿女时，我并不是说他们会受洗。
- start: 863.072
  end: 868.413
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No, in the old covenant, infants were included, but now infants are excluded.
  zh: 不，在旧约中，婴儿是包括在内的，但现在婴儿被排除在外。
- start: 868.413
  end: 870.254
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You're like, why didn't you say so?
  zh: 你会想，为什么你不这样说呢？
- start: 870.254
  end: 875.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, if infants were excluded now in the new, you would have to say so.
  zh: 那么，如果现在在新约中婴儿被排除在外，你就必须这样说。
- start: 875.515
  end: 885.268
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But if infants are included in the new and they're going to get baptized along with their households,  Then, of course, it would go without saying, because it's just the continuity of the covenant.
  zh: 但如果婴儿在新约中被包括在内，并且他们将与家人一起受洗，那么当然不言而喻，因为这只是约的延续。
- start: 885.268
  end: 897.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The discontinuity is changing from Passover to Eucharist, from circumcision to baptism, from the Sabbath, which comes at the end of the week, to the Lord's Day, which begins the week, the day of resurrection.
  zh: 不连续性是从逾越节到圣餐，从割礼到洗礼，从安息日（在一周的末尾）到主日（在一周的开始），复活的日子。
- start: 897.516
  end: 901.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But as a Calvinist, I mean, Calvinists baptize babies, don't they?
  zh: 但作为加尔文主义者，我是说，加尔文主义者给婴儿施洗，不是吗？
- start: 901.059
  end: 902.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They think they're efficacious for the elect.
  zh: 他们认为这对选民是有效的。
- start: 902.94
  end: 904.716
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All on the basis of covenants.
  zh: 一切都基于约。
- start: 904.716
  end: 909.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So this is something you accepted, not even really thinking what Catholicism got this far.
  zh: 所以这是你接受的东西，甚至没有真正考虑天主教走到了这一步。
- start: 909.418
  end: 910.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're not even near there yet.
  zh: 我们还远没有到那一步。
- start: 910.358
  end: 911.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 911.139
  end: 921.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So every paper I wrote for the next four years as an undergraduate had something to do with covenant, and they were usually longish, and I was just enthralled by the research.
  zh: 所以在接下来的四年本科期间，我写的每篇论文都与约有关，通常都比较长，而我对这些研究非常着迷。
- start: 921.063
  end: 931.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But in the last year or two, I began to discover what has become so foundational for me, and that is, okay, we use covenant and contract interchangeably.
  zh: 但在最后一两年，我开始发现对我来说非常基础的东西，那就是，我们常常将约和合同互换使用。
- start: 931.778
  end: 934.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In ancient Israel, you'd never do that.
  zh: 在古代以色列，你绝不会这样做。
- start: 934.539
  end: 937.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because in a contract, this is yours, that is mine.
  zh: 因为在合同中，这是你的，那是我的。
- start: 937.58
  end: 940.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In a covenant, I am yours, and you are mine.
  zh: 在约中，我是你的，你是我的。
- start: 940.28
  end: 944.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You exchange promises, and then you exchange property, and the contract is fulfilled.
  zh: 你们交换承诺，然后交换财产，合同就履行了。
- start: 944.762
  end: 948.403
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And you might renew it, or you might have nothing to do with that party ever again.
  zh: 你可能会续约，也可能再也不与对方有任何关系。
- start: 948.403
  end: 950.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But in a covenant, you don't just make promises.
  zh: 但在约中，你不仅仅是做出承诺。
- start: 950.924
  end: 952.504
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You swear the oath.
  zh: 你要发誓。
- start: 952.684
  end: 954.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You invoke the name of God.
  zh: 你要呼求神的名。
- start: 954.325
  end: 956.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The Latin word for that is sacramentum.
  zh: 拉丁语中这个词是sacramentum。
- start: 957.145
  end: 967.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And once you discover this, as I did,  Then you realize that a covenant was basically synonymous, not with a transactional exchange, but family communion.
  zh: 一旦你发现这一点，就像我一样，你会意识到约基本上是同义的，不是交易交换，而是家庭相交。
- start: 968.401
  end: 977.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, okay, if God is not just renewing a contract with us, but a covenant, what does that imply?
  zh: 那么，如果神不仅仅是与我们续约，而是立约，这意味着什么？
- start: 977.463
  end: 979.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, it implies that he's a father.
  zh: 这意味着他是父亲。
- start: 979.704
  end: 982.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It implies that his people are a family.
  zh: 这意味着他的子民是一个家庭。
- start: 982.364
  end: 985.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That Sinai was not like the Constitutional Convention.
  zh: 西奈山不像制宪会议。
- start: 985.765
  end: 987.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't a social contract.
  zh: 这不是一个社会契约。
- start: 987.206
  end: 989.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't a sacred contract.
  zh: 这不是一个神圣的合同。
- start: 989.207
  end: 990.728
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was a sacred covenant.
  zh: 这是一个神圣的约。
- start: 990.728
  end: 993.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I mean, that's the difference between marriage and prostitution.
  zh: 我的意思是，这就是婚姻和卖淫之间的区别。
- start: 993.651
  end: 996.373
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, for them, it's like seismic.
  zh: 对他们来说，这就像是地震般的。
- start: 996.373
  end: 1007.962
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I just thought, well, I'll make one adjustment, because nowhere in reformed evangelical Calvinist theology was covenant ever clarified in its definition as family bond.
  zh: 所以我就想，我要做一个调整，因为在改革宗福音派加尔文主义神学中，从未将约明确定义为家庭纽带。
- start: 1008.083
  end: 1015.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it's not just the nuclear family, as it was aboard the ark with Noah and his wife and their three sons who all had three wives.
  zh: 这不仅仅是核心家庭，就像诺亚方舟上的诺亚和他的妻子以及他们的三个儿子，他们都有三个妻子。
- start: 1015.068
  end: 1022.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, it's a tribe under Abraham, who's the mediator of the covenant,  It's 12 tribes that form a national family at Mount Sinai.
  zh: 你知道，这是亚伯拉罕之下的一个部落，他是约的中保，是在西奈山形成的十二个部落的国家家庭。
- start: 1022.919
  end: 1030.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so if we're moving from the national in the old to the Catholic, the international in the new,  I mean, this did take me two or three years to think through.
  zh: 所以如果我们从旧约的国家转向新约的公教会，国际的，我的意思是，这确实花了我两三年的时间来思考。
- start: 1030.927
  end: 1039.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was mostly through teaching Scripture to people who had asked hard questions, and I would try to think up an answer, you know, on the spur of the moment.
  zh: 这主要是通过向那些提出难题的人教授圣经，我会试图在一时兴起中想出一个答案。
- start: 1039.116
  end: 1045.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you didn't go get baptized with your friends because after this research you realized that your baptism was valid, legitimate as a baby?
  zh: 所以你没有和你的朋友一起去受洗，因为在这次研究之后你意识到你作为婴儿的洗礼是有效的，合法的？
- start: 1045.663
  end: 1046.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 1046.303
  end: 1066.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it was a funny response because  You know, these guys were classmates, they were good friends, we would have lunch in the cafeteria, but then suddenly it became obvious that they were ostracizing me because, oh, he just intellectualizes everything, it's theology, you know, whereas we felt the Holy Spirit, you know, in the river.
  zh: 这反应很有趣，因为你知道，这些人是同学，是好朋友，我们会在食堂一起吃午饭，但突然之间很明显他们在排斥我，因为，哦，他只是把一切都知识化了，这是神学，而我们在河里感受到了圣灵。
- start: 1066.195
  end: 1073.744
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm like, I was so grateful, but I was also grateful that  Just as I didn't choose my family, so I didn't choose myself.
  zh: 我就像，我非常感激，但我也感激，就像我没有选择我的家庭一样，我也没有选择我自己。
- start: 1073.744
  end: 1074.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, it was really given to me.
  zh: 我的意思是，这真的是赐给我的。
- start: 1074.804
  end: 1078.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Did you go back to this university professor and tell him what you had found?
  zh: 你有没有回去找这位大学教授告诉他你发现了什么？
- start: 1078.605
  end: 1079.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh, yeah.
  zh: 哦，是的。
- start: 1079.766
  end: 1084.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I've actually stayed in touch with him over the last 40, 45 years.
  zh: 在过去的四十、四十五年里，我实际上一直与他保持联系。
- start: 1084.948
  end: 1087.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, well, take us from there then.
  zh: 好吧，那么从那里开始说起。
- start: 1088.469
  end: 1091.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I want to get to the point where you started facing Catholicism.
  zh: 我想了解你开始面对天主教的那一刻。
- start: 1091.37
  end: 1092.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you got married in college.
  zh: 所以你在大学时结婚了。
- start: 1092.77
  end: 1095.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm like the proverbial pole-baller who backs up too far.
  zh: 我就像那个谚语中的撑竿跳选手，退得太远了。
- start: 1095.431
  end: 1096.031
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's all right.
  zh: 没关系。
- start: 1096.031
  end: 1096.652
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm exhausted.
  zh: 我累了。
- start: 1096.652
  end: 1097.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No, that's okay.
  zh: 不，没关系。
- start: 1097.854
  end: 1099.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you got married in college or after college?
  zh: 但你是在大学时结婚还是大学后结婚？
- start: 1099.894
  end: 1100.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Right after college.
  zh: 就在大学毕业后。
- start: 1100.454
  end: 1111.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We both graduated in 1979. We were in love, working together in Young Life for the last two years of our four-year stint as college students.
  zh: 我们都在1979年毕业。我们相爱了，在大学四年期间的最后两年一起在青年生活中工作。
- start: 1111.376
  end: 1113.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And she was a dynamo.
  zh: 她是个活力四射的人。
- start: 1113.137
  end: 1114.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She was amazing.
  zh: 她很了不起。
- start: 1114.177
  end: 1124.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so when we entered into marriage as a covenant, I was so conscious of living out my theology and tracing this, you know.
  zh: 所以当我们以约的形式进入婚姻时，我非常有意识地活出我的神学，并追踪这一点。
- start: 1124.059
  end: 1125.319
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so we went to seminary.
  zh: 于是我们去了神学院。
- start: 1125.319
  end: 1128.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was still known as  Not only non-Catholic, but anti-Catholic.
  zh: 我仍然被认为不仅是非天主教徒，而且是反天主教的。
- start: 1128.87
  end: 1134.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I dare say, at our evangelical seminary, nobody would have said, oh, I'm more anti-Catholic than Scott.
  zh: 我敢说，在我们的福音派神学院，没有人会说，哦，我比斯科特更反天主教。
- start: 1134.811
  end: 1135.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Oh, really?
  zh: 哦，真的吗？
- start: 1135.331
  end: 1135.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Quick side note.
  zh: 快速插一句。
- start: 1135.971
  end: 1138.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Did you ever meet Catholics and try to evangelize them?
  zh: 你有没有遇到过天主教徒并试图向他们传福音？
- start: 1138.912
  end: 1141.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Oh, I mean, that was my sport.
  zh: 哦，我的意思是，那是我的运动。
- start: 1141.113
  end: 1143.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Besides baseball, football, and guitar, yeah.
  zh: 除了棒球、足球和吉他，是的。
- start: 1143.754
  end: 1149.575
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, I would target my Catholic friends in high school and in college.
  zh: 我的意思是，我会在高中和大学时以我的天主教朋友为目标。
- start: 1150.304
  end: 1151.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And just try to calibrate.
  zh: 只是试图调整。
- start: 1151.285
  end: 1153.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Were any of them knowledgeable about the faith?
  zh: 他们中有谁对信仰有了解吗？
- start: 1153.626
  end: 1154.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Not a single one.
  zh: 一个也没有。
- start: 1154.346
  end: 1155.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Just kind of cultural?
  zh: 只是某种文化上的？
- start: 1155.427
  end: 1156.127
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 1156.327
  end: 1156.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: A number of them.
  zh: 他们中有不少。
- start: 1156.987
  end: 1160.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, I would say the majority of them I've kind of gone back to.
  zh: 事实上，我会说他们中的大多数我都回去联系过。
- start: 1160.069
  end: 1165.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And if I drew them out, I have sent them care packages of boxes with books and that sort of thing.
  zh: 如果我联系他们，我会寄给他们装有书籍等物品的关怀包裹。
- start: 1165.852
  end: 1167.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's very good of you, yeah.
  zh: 你这样做真好，是的。
- start: 1167.292
  end: 1173.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And one of them in particular, Chris, is now on the board of the St. Paul's Center, which Kimberly and I founded.
  zh: 其中一个，克里斯，现在是我们和金伯利创立的圣保罗中心的董事会成员。
- start: 1173.055
  end: 1175.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's another story for another day.
  zh: 那是另一天的故事。
- start: 1175.236
  end: 1177.157
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So anyway, you got married.
  zh: 所以无论如何，你结婚了。
- start: 1177.157
  end: 1177.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1178.211
  end: 1182.374
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so our first year of marriage was our first year in seminary.
  zh: 所以我们婚姻的第一年是我们在神学院的第一年。
- start: 1182.615
  end: 1184.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so we're living it out.
  zh: 所以我们在实践中生活。
- start: 1184.857
  end: 1186.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We're contraceptive, of course.
  zh: 当然，我们在避孕。
- start: 1186.318
  end: 1196.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, when my father-in-law, our future father-in-law, was giving us pastoral counseling, because he was the one who married us at College Hill Presbyterian Church, contraception was not an issue.
  zh: 我的意思是，当我的岳父，我们未来的岳父，给我们做牧灵辅导时，因为他是在学院山长老会教堂为我们主持婚礼的人，避孕不是一个问题。
- start: 1196.027
  end: 1199.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The only question was, what form will you use?
  zh: 唯一的问题是，你会使用哪种形式？
- start: 1199.83
  end: 1212.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so it was, I think it was our second year that Kimberly was going full-time  Her first year she was working down in Cambridge near Harvard, and then my second year was her first year.
  zh: 所以我想是我们的第二年，金伯利全职工作。她第一年在哈佛附近的剑桥工作，然后我的第二年是她的第一年。
- start: 1212.184
  end: 1215.106
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I got the Master of Divinity, she got the Master of Arts.
  zh: 我获得了神学硕士学位，她获得了文学硕士学位。
- start: 1215.106
  end: 1217.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Mine was three years, hers was two.
  zh: 我的学制是三年，她的是两年。
- start: 1217.088
  end: 1226.474
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But she took a course in Christian Ethics, and she describes this in Rome, Sweet Home, because she chose contraception, which was such a non-issue, I wondered why waste your time.
  zh: 但她选修了一门基督教伦理课程，她在《罗马甜蜜的家》中描述了这一点，因为她选择了避孕，这本来不是个问题，我想知道为什么要浪费时间。
- start: 1226.655
  end: 1242.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so she dove into it, she read Humanae Vitae and some other sources and found out  that until 1930, all Protestant denominations were in complete lockstep with Catholics on this, and then suddenly, in the last 50 years, the sexual revolution.
  zh: 于是她深入研究，阅读了《人类生命》和其他一些资料，发现直到1930年，所有新教教派在这一点上与天主教完全一致，然后在过去50年里，性革命突然发生。
- start: 1242.305
  end: 1250.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so she began to question it, and some friends of mine, classmates, were saying, you ought to talk to your wife, you know, she's got some pretty persuasive arguments.
  zh: 于是她开始质疑，一些我的朋友，同学们说，你应该和你妻子谈谈，她有一些相当有说服力的论点。
- start: 1250.111
  end: 1254.934
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, given the subject matter, I thought it was appropriate to talk about it better, so we did.
  zh: 好吧，鉴于这个主题，我认为更好地谈论它是合适的，所以我们谈了。
- start: 1255.086
  end: 1259.588
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And she gave me a book, then it was entitled Birth Control and the Marriage Covenant.
  zh: 她给了我一本书，书名是《避孕与婚姻之约》。
- start: 1260.309
  end: 1264.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I thought I owned every book with the word covenant in the title because they were all by Protestants.
  zh: 我以为我拥有每一本书名中带有“约”字的书，因为它们都是新教徒写的。
- start: 1264.872
  end: 1270.175
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: This one was by John Kipley and 30 pages into it, it's making me so uncomfortable.
  zh: 这本是约翰·基普利写的，读到30页时，它让我感到非常不舒服。
- start: 1270.175
  end: 1274.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I remember she's in the bedroom, I threw it across the room and she heard it.
  zh: 我记得她在卧室，我把书扔到房间的另一边，她听到了。
- start: 1274.878
  end: 1289.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I just admitted that I'm frustrated by arguments I've never heard before that just so obviously line up with Scripture but also with natural law  And a kind of sanctified common sense that I thought, you know, we ought to share.
  zh: 于是我承认，我对那些我从未听过的论点感到沮丧，这些论点显然与圣经一致，也与自然法则一致，还有一种我认为我们应该分享的神圣常识。
- start: 1289.53
  end: 1292.953
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I finished the book and I realized Kimberly was right.
  zh: 于是我读完了这本书，我意识到金伯利是对的。
- start: 1293.033
  end: 1306.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We were wrong since 1930, you know, and the same denominations that we knew so well that had allowed contraception in the 30s and 40s were now  advocating for unrestricted abortion rights for women as well.
  zh: 自1930年以来我们就错了，你知道的，那些我们非常熟悉的教派在30年代和40年代允许避孕，现在也在倡导女性不受限制的堕胎权。
- start: 1306.212
  end: 1307.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm unfamiliar with the author of that book.
  zh: 我对那本书的作者不熟悉。
- start: 1307.913
  end: 1309.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Is he a Protestant?
  zh: 他是新教徒吗？
- start: 1309.174
  end: 1311.535
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: John Kipley was a late...
  zh: 约翰·基普利是一个晚期的……
- start: 1311.535
  end: 1313.636
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think he's in his late 80s now.
  zh: 我想他现在已经八十多岁了。
- start: 1313.636
  end: 1314.396
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He lives in Cincinnati.
  zh: 他住在辛辛那提。
- start: 1314.396
  end: 1316.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He's been a dear friend for many years.
  zh: 他多年来一直是亲密的朋友。
- start: 1316.337
  end: 1319.299
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: His son Chris went to Franciscan back in the 90s.
  zh: 他的儿子克里斯在90年代去了方济会大学。
- start: 1319.299
  end: 1320.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So he was a Catholic?
  zh: 所以他是天主教徒？
- start: 1320.439
  end: 1320.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1320.719
  end: 1322.52
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you were reading a book by a Catholic?
  zh: 所以你在读一本天主教徒写的书？
- start: 1322.52
  end: 1330.725
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And John Kipley was this really paradoxical figure because in the 60s and 70s,  There were no lay theologians.
  zh: 约翰·基普利是一个非常矛盾的人物，因为在60年代和70年代，没有平信徒神学家。
- start: 1330.725
  end: 1333.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If you were a layman, you were a philosopher.
  zh: 如果你是平信徒，你就是哲学家。
- start: 1333.206
  end: 1335.408
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If you were a theologian, you were a priest.
  zh: 如果你是神学家，你就是神父。
- start: 1336.168
  end: 1355.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But there was a second anomaly about Kipley in this book, that in the late 60s and early 70s, when he wrote it, there were no theologians who defended Humanae Vitae, except for Germain Grise, who was a layman, but a philosopher, by the way, and John Kipley, who never got his doctorate.
  zh: 但在这本书中，基普利的第二个异常是，在60年代末和70年代初，当他写这本书时，没有神学家为《人类生命》辩护，除了哲学家格尔曼·格里斯，他是平信徒，顺便说一下，还有从未获得博士学位的约翰·基普利。
- start: 1355.134
  end: 1358.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But could really argue persuasively from biblical...
  zh: 但他能从圣经中提出有说服力的论点……
- start: 1358.376
  end: 1361.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But he was arguing on the basis of covenant theology.
  zh: 但他是在约神学的基础上进行论证。
- start: 1361.418
  end: 1367.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That when you renew the covenant in receiving Holy Eucharist, you can't spit it out.
  zh: 当你在领受圣餐时更新约时，你不能吐出来。
- start: 1367.441
  end: 1371.943
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There really is a sense in which that sign signifies a communion.
  zh: 确实有一种意义上，这个记号象征着一种相交。
- start: 1372.023
  end: 1386.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And even more, in the marital act, when you renew your covenant with your bride, why would you do that and then deliberately prevent  That life-giving love from having its consequences.
  zh: 更甚者，在婚姻行为中，当你与新娘更新约时，为什么要这样做，然后故意阻止那赋予生命的爱产生其后果。
- start: 1386.537
  end: 1392.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it wasn't an argument that just pinned me down and counted to ten and I was beaten and defeated.
  zh: 这不是一个让我屈服的论点，不是数到十我就被打败了。
- start: 1392.519
  end: 1403.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was the logic of love that I encountered for the first time where it's like, okay, that isn't just abstract philosophical logic as much as I love that because I was a good Thomist since high school.
  zh: 这是我第一次遇到的爱的逻辑，就像，好吧，这不仅仅是抽象的哲学逻辑，尽管我很喜欢，因为我从高中起就是一个好的托马斯主义者。
- start: 1404.404
  end: 1407.365
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But it was a logic that I had never encountered before.
  zh: 但这是我从未遇到过的逻辑。
- start: 1407.423
  end: 1419.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That the language or the logic of love that is expressed when these two bodies unite to renew a covenant, it just follows that if you're eating food, it's for nutrition and also for fellowship.
  zh: 当这两个身体结合以更新约时所表达的爱的语言或逻辑，它只是表明如果你在吃食物，那是为了营养也是为了相交。
- start: 1419.592
  end: 1423.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But if you're eating food and then spitting it out, that's an eating disorder.
  zh: 但如果你在吃食物然后吐出来，那就是饮食失调。
- start: 1423.776
  end: 1426.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so this is a sexual disorder.
  zh: 所以这是一种性失调。
- start: 1426.458
  end: 1434.744
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it struck me that this might help me understand why our culture is just so corrupt and so perverse.
  zh: 这让我意识到这可能有助于我理解为什么我们的文化如此腐败和堕落。
- start: 1436.003
  end: 1439.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So how did you make the choice to stop using contraception?
  zh: 那么你是如何做出停止使用避孕措施的选择的？
- start: 1439.346
  end: 1444.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, my first choice was to stop believing that it's morally licit.
  zh: 好吧，我的第一个选择是停止相信它在道德上是合法的。
- start: 1444.59
  end: 1453.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then when Kimberly began to kind of talk about the implications, practical consequences, like, whoa, let's not rush this.
  zh: 然后当金伯利开始谈论其影响和实际后果时，我想，哇，我们不要急于求成。
- start: 1453.398
  end: 1456.08
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then it was obvious to me that I was just giving into fear.
  zh: 然后我很明显地意识到我只是屈服于恐惧。
- start: 1456.08
  end: 1462.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, you know, within a matter of months, we realized that our change of mind had brought about a change in her body.
  zh: 所以，你知道，在几个月内，我们意识到我们的思想改变带来了她身体的变化。
- start: 1462.638
  end: 1466.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so our firstborn was conceived as a result of that.
  zh: 因此，我们的长子就是因此而怀上的。
- start: 1466.04
  end: 1468.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Are you pastoring a church at this point?
  zh: 你现在是在牧养一个教会吗？
- start: 1468.162
  end: 1472.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No, I'm actually finishing seminary at this point.
  zh: 不，我实际上是在完成神学院的学业。
- start: 1472.865
  end: 1473.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what was it like?
  zh: 那是什么样的？
- start: 1473.645
  end: 1479.869
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Did you let other people know that this is something we've decided the Bible would prohibit contraception, this isn't God's will?
  zh: 你有没有让其他人知道这是我们决定的，圣经会禁止避孕，这不是神的旨意？
- start: 1479.869
  end: 1480.83
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She did.
  zh: 她做了。
- start: 1480.83
  end: 1491.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, in a certain sense, it was her radical openness to the logic of love, to the Word of God, and to the Christian tradition that Protestants had shared up until about the middle of the 20th century.
  zh: 我的意思是，在某种意义上，这是她对爱的逻辑、神的道以及新教徒在20世纪中叶之前所共享的基督教传统的彻底开放。
- start: 1492.06
  end: 1503.349
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I was sort of ashamed because we had just swallowed hook, line, and sinker, but also because my own covenant theology had been used against me.
  zh: 我有点羞愧，因为我们完全接受了这一切，而且因为我自己的约神学被用来反对我。
- start: 1503.369
  end: 1506.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And why had we as Calvinists not seen this before?
  zh: 为什么我们作为加尔文主义者以前没有看到这一点？
- start: 1506.252
  end: 1510.956
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And how could Catholics like Pope Paul VI see it so clearly and state it so compellingly?
  zh: 而像保禄六世这样的天主教徒怎么能如此清楚地看到并如此有力地陈述呢？
- start: 1510.956
  end: 1513.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And we had a line in our family.
  zh: 我们家有一句话。
- start: 1513.758
  end: 1517.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: My mom used to say, even the blind hog finds an acorn.
  zh: 我妈妈常说，即使是瞎猪也能找到橡子。
- start: 1517.741
  end: 1526.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I just thought, well, if you've been around 2,000 years,  You're bound to get something right, and we'll just simply slip, we let it go to our grasp.
  zh: 所以我就想，好吧，如果你已经存在了两千年，你一定会有一些正确的东西，我们就简单地放手，让它在我们的掌握中。
- start: 1527.223
  end: 1532.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I think that it was sort of the hole in the dike, and so it just seemed to be a small adjustment.
  zh: 但我认为这有点像堤坝上的漏洞，所以这似乎只是一个小调整。
- start: 1532.686
  end: 1537.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And really I was just lining up with Calvin and Luther and Hodge and Warfield and all of the others.
  zh: 实际上，我只是与加尔文、路德、贺智、沃菲尔德和其他所有人保持一致。
- start: 1537.929
  end: 1546.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So when I graduated in 1982 and began to pastor a church in Fairfax, at the time it was Trinity Presbyterian Church.
  zh: 所以当我在1982年毕业并开始在费尔法克斯牧养一个教会时，那时是三一长老会教堂。
- start: 1546.313
  end: 1548.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I was a fetus while you were doing that.
  zh: 当你做这些事情时，我还是个胎儿。
- start: 1548.615
  end: 1549.455
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Continue.
  zh: 继续。
- start: 1549.565
  end: 1550.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Literally.
  zh: 字面上。
- start: 1550.966
  end: 1552.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: 82. Thank God for life.
  zh: 82年。感谢神赐予生命。
- start: 1553.086
  end: 1563.09
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, you know, when Michael was born that year, December 4th, Kimberly had been in labor for over 30 hours and then a cesarean section emergency.
  zh: 所以，你知道，当年12月4日迈克尔出生时，金伯利已经分娩超过30小时，然后紧急剖腹产。
- start: 1563.47
  end: 1575.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And, you know, to see love become that sacrificial and to look at my wife's body as she's become a mother, that also was a sort of revolution that starts in the five senses.
  zh: 而且，你知道，看到爱变得如此牺牲，看着我妻子的身体成为母亲，这也是一种从五感开始的革命。
- start: 1575.775
  end: 1578.836
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It reaches the heart and then finally the head.
  zh: 它触及心灵，然后最终到达头脑。
- start: 1578.905
  end: 1581.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And you realize that's what those body parts are also for.
  zh: 你意识到那些身体部位也是为了这个。
- start: 1582.188
  end: 1584.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that's what marriage is all about.
  zh: 这就是婚姻的全部意义。
- start: 1584.71
  end: 1587.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that's what my covenant theology has been backing me into.
  zh: 这就是我的约神学一直支持我的方向。
- start: 1587.693
  end: 1593.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And by then, I was already beginning to sense that the water was getting hot.
  zh: 到那时，我已经开始感觉到水在变热。
- start: 1594.059
  end: 1600.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And my last semester I remember  Having this experience, okay, I've just interviewed.
  zh: 在我最后一个学期，我记得有这样的经历，好吧，我刚刚面试过。
- start: 1600.201
  end: 1604.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They're offering me a position as the associate pastor at Trinity Presbyterian.
  zh: 他们给我提供了三一长老会的副牧师职位。
- start: 1604.123
  end: 1611.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They're asking me to preach at least 45 minutes each Sunday, to lead at least one, preferably two, Bible studies.
  zh: 他们要求我每个星期天至少讲道45分钟，带领至少一个，最好是两个圣经学习小组。
- start: 1611.048
  end: 1613.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Catholics would have a heart attack.
  zh: 天主教徒会心脏病发作。
- start: 1613.049
  end: 1613.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: 45-minute homily?
  zh: 45分钟的讲道？
- start: 1613.91
  end: 1614.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh, yeah.
  zh: 哦，是的。
- start: 1614.37
  end: 1617.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, you'd be right on our rails.
  zh: 我的意思是，你会正好在我们的轨道上。
- start: 1617.412
  end: 1635.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The time that I spent in the library my last semester was spent reading the church fathers because in my interview and conversation with the leaders of the church that was hiring me,  I realized they knew Sproul, they knew all of my favorite theologians, and so I couldn't just get up and recycle material.
  zh: 我最后一个学期在图书馆的时间都花在阅读教父上，因为在我与雇用我的教会领袖的面试和谈话中，我意识到他们知道斯普劳尔，他们知道我所有喜欢的神学家，所以我不能只是起来重复材料。
- start: 1635.413
  end: 1640.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I went to the fathers for help to find new things that were really kind of ever-ancient, ever-new.
  zh: 所以我去找教父们寻求帮助，寻找那些真正古老而又常新的东西。
- start: 1640.775
  end: 1645.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, were Protestants doing that in your circles at the time, going back to the early church fathers?
  zh: 那么，当时在你的圈子里，新教徒有这样做吗，回到早期教父那里？
- start: 1645.598
  end: 1647.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not even close.
  zh: 根本没有。
- start: 1647.398
  end: 1648.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why is that?
  zh: 为什么会这样？
- start: 1648.179
  end: 1655.084
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It seems like such an obvious move, that if we want to know what Jesus meant, what the Scripture meant,  When it said this or that, these things we disagree on.
  zh: 这似乎是一个显而易见的举动，如果我们想知道耶稣的意思，圣经的意思，当它说这个或那个时，这些我们不同意的事情。
- start: 1655.084
  end: 1656.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What do the earliest Christians think?
  zh: 最早的基督徒是怎么想的？
- start: 1656.565
  end: 1672.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, back then, we had church history, and so we were expected to read some of the primary sources, and I probably read a few hundred, but you were almost always exposed to the material that, you know, for example, in Augustine, where he sounds like a proto-Protestant.
  zh: 我的意思是，那时我们有教会历史，所以我们被期望阅读一些原始资料，我可能读了几百篇，但你几乎总是接触到的材料，比如在奥古斯丁那里，他听起来像一个原始新教徒。
- start: 1672.377
  end: 1672.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 1672.777
  end: 1677.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, and so free will, predestination, and other matters too.
  zh: 你知道，还有自由意志、预定论和其他问题。
- start: 1677.22
  end: 1682.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so it's a selection that is based upon a Protestant principle of selectivity.
  zh: 所以这是基于新教选择性原则的选择。
- start: 1682.688
  end: 1714.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Do you think that Catholics also fall into this trap  Well, I mean, that's a yes and no answer.
  zh: 你认为天主教徒也会陷入这个陷阱吗？嗯，我的意思是，这个问题的答案是肯定和否定的。
- start: 1714.183
  end: 1715.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the one hand, yes.
  zh: 一方面，是的。
- start: 1729.417
  end: 1734.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We always look for the sources that will reinforce what we already believe.
  zh: 我们总是寻找那些能加强我们已有信念的来源。
- start: 1734.241
  end: 1740.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But no, I mean, in this sense that Newman's famous line, you know, to go deep into history is to cease to be Protestant.
  zh: 但不，我的意思是，在这个意义上，纽曼的名言，你知道，深入历史就是不再是新教徒。
- start: 1740.446
  end: 1748.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: To go into the early church fathers, I mean, you can't find a corridor or a hallway anywhere that is really and truly Protestant.
  zh: 进入早期教父，我的意思是，你找不到任何真正新教的走廊或过道。
- start: 1748.252
  end: 1755.918
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It might not be about, you know, adoring the Blessed Virgin or worshiping the Eucharist or invoking the saints.
  zh: 这可能不是关于崇拜圣母、敬拜圣餐或祈求圣徒。
- start: 1755.984
  end: 1759.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But you can't go that long without encountering that.
  zh: 但你不能走那么久而不遇到这些。
- start: 1759.086
  end: 1764.729
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when you encounter it, what's the most troublesome is not just that they're saying it, but they're not debating it.
  zh: 而当你遇到它时，最麻烦的不是他们在说，而是他们没有争论。
- start: 1764.849
  end: 1773.394
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, it's more assumed than asserted, and it's more universal than it is a local belief that eventually convinced everybody else.
  zh: 我的意思是，这更多是被假定的而不是被断言的，它比起一种最终说服其他人的地方信仰更为普遍。
- start: 1773.394
  end: 1787.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, in a sense, that's the way Protestantism grew and why it becomes like 20, 30, 40 thousand denominations, because we were the  Presbyterian Church in America, or the Southern Baptist, we're regional, we're local, or whatever.
  zh: 我的意思是，从某种意义上说，这就是新教发展的方式，以及为什么它会变成二三四万个教派，因为我们是美国的长老会，或者是南方浸信会，我们是地区性的，我们是地方性的，或者其他什么。
- start: 1788.049
  end: 1792.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Whereas this was universal by the second, third, and fourth centuries.
  zh: 而在二、三、四世纪时，这是普遍的。
- start: 1792.59
  end: 1794.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is an interesting point, what you said.
  zh: 你说的那是一个有趣的观点。
- start: 1794.071
  end: 1799.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can learn almost as much about what the church believed by what they didn't debate.
  zh: 你可以通过他们没有争论的内容几乎同样多地了解教会的信仰。
- start: 1799.132
  end: 1800.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I hadn't really thought of that before.
  zh: 我以前真的没有想到过这一点。
- start: 1800.472
  end: 1811.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was surprised by the third, fourth, and fifth centuries that Marian devotion, Marian doctrine is in the hymns, it's in the prayers, it's in the homilies, but there's no debate.
  zh: 我对第三、第四和第五世纪的马利亚崇拜和马利亚教义感到惊讶，它们在赞美诗中，在祷告中，在讲道中，但没有争论。
- start: 1811.835
  end: 1823.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, Jerome  But I mean, the way he refutes Helvidius is by appealing to the universal belief that Mary was ever virgin and all that follows from it.
  zh: 我的意思是，耶柔米，但我的意思是，他驳斥赫尔维迪乌斯的方式是诉诸于马利亚永远是童贞女的普遍信仰以及由此产生的一切。
- start: 1823.691
  end: 1828.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So these things were disturbing, but I was really looking only for preaching material.
  zh: 所以这些事情令人不安，但我实际上只是寻找讲道材料。
- start: 1828.975
  end: 1836.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so the series that I was reading from were the Sunday sermons of the early church fathers, four or five volumes that I would sign out, read.
  zh: 所以我阅读的系列是早期教父的主日讲道，有四五卷，我会借出来阅读。
- start: 1836.702
  end: 1841.451
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that's when I began to realize that they interpret the scripture better than we do.
  zh: 那时我开始意识到他们对圣经的解释比我们更好。
- start: 1841.451
  end: 1844.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Better than my favorite professors, preachers and teachers.
  zh: 比我最喜欢的教授、传道人和教师更好。
- start: 1844.472
  end: 1850.495
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That Augustine's line that the new is concealed in the old and the old is revealed in the new isn't just a truism.
  zh: 奥古斯丁所说的新约隐藏在旧约中，旧约在新约中显明，这不仅仅是一个真理。
- start: 1850.535
  end: 1854.636
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was like exactly what they would do every single Sunday.
  zh: 这就像他们每个星期天都会做的事情。
- start: 1854.636
  end: 1857.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And not just for a paragraph or two for a couple of minutes.
  zh: 而不仅仅是一两段，几分钟的时间。
- start: 1857.938
  end: 1859.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It usually shaped their sermons.
  zh: 这通常塑造了他们的讲道。
- start: 1860.099
  end: 1864.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And they were obviously reading not just their favorite passages from the New Testament.
  zh: 他们显然不仅仅是在读新约中他们最喜欢的段落。
- start: 1864.2
  end: 1873.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They were reading through the scriptures in a kind of lectionary style that I knew was applicable to the synagogue  In the temple in the ancient Israel.
  zh: 他们以一种我知道适用于古代以色列圣殿会堂的选读方式通读圣经。
- start: 1873.6
  end: 1875.24
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But it was not what we did.
  zh: 但这不是我们所做的。
- start: 1875.421
  end: 1884.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, I remember compiling in my own journal a series of parallels between Jesus and Moses that I picked up from Ambrose.
  zh: 所以，我记得在我自己的日记中编写了一系列从安布罗斯那里学到的耶稣和摩西之间的平行。
- start: 1884.164
  end: 1884.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Give us some of those.
  zh: 给我们一些例子。
- start: 1884.984
  end: 1888.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There are people who are watching and they're completely unfamiliar that there could be any parallels.
  zh: 有些人在观看，他们完全不熟悉可能存在的任何平行。
- start: 1889.065
  end: 1893.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So an example of typology would be to compare Jesus in the New to Moses in the Old.
  zh: 所以预表论的一个例子是将新约中的耶稣与旧约中的摩西进行比较。
- start: 1893.467
  end: 1900.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, God sends the Savior at long last to save his people, but as soon as the Savior is born, the Savior needed to be saved.
  zh: 所以，神终于派遣救主来拯救他的子民，但救主一出生就需要被拯救。
- start: 1900.563
  end: 1907.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because of Herod's tyrannical decree that targeted baby Jesus and all of the Hebrew male children in Bethlehem.
  zh: 因为希律的暴政法令针对婴儿耶稣和伯利恒所有的希伯来男孩。
- start: 1907.208
  end: 1912.512
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, Ambrose and, again, Augustine and others just showed that, well, that's not the first round.
  zh: 好吧，安布罗斯，还有奥古斯丁和其他人只是表明，这不是第一轮。
- start: 1912.512
  end: 1914.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Round one was with Moses.
  zh: 第一轮是摩西。
- start: 1914.313
  end: 1925.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: God sent the deliverer to deliver his people, but the deliverer needed to be delivered because of the imperial decree of this tyrant named Pharaoh who targeted not only the baby Moses but all of the Hebrew male children.
  zh: 神派遣拯救者来拯救他的子民，但拯救者需要被拯救，因为这个名叫法老的暴君的帝国法令不仅针对婴儿摩西，还针对所有的希伯来男孩。
- start: 1925.801
  end: 1930.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so you see how God saves the Savior  through a man named Joseph.
  zh: 所以你看到神如何通过一个名叫约瑟的人拯救救主。
- start: 1930.085
  end: 1936.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But you also find Joseph in the Old Testament, where he, like Saint Joseph, is the son of Jacob.
  zh: 但你也在旧约中找到约瑟，他像圣约瑟一样，是雅各的儿子。
- start: 1936.687
  end: 1945.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, he's the great-grandson of Abraham, and Joseph is in the line of Abraham for Matthew, in chapter 1. But he's also described as righteous.
  zh: 你知道，他是亚伯拉罕的曾孙，约瑟在马太福音第一章中是亚伯拉罕的后裔。但他也被描述为义人。
- start: 1945.128
  end: 1952.81
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He's also a dreamer, and he also took the Holy Family of Israel, the family of Israel, down to Egypt for safety, you know.
  zh: 他也是一个做梦者，他也带领以色列的圣家族，以色列的家族，去埃及避难。
- start: 1952.81
  end: 1956.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So these parallels were so obvious to the early church fathers.
  zh: 所以这些平行对早期教父来说是如此明显。
- start: 1956.251
  end: 1964.365
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I had taken graduate seminars  on Old Testament books and New, but there was never that kind of interpenetration of the Old and the New.
  zh: 我上过关于旧约和新约书籍的研究生研讨会，但从来没有那种旧约和新约的相互渗透。
- start: 1964.426
  end: 1966.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And again, Ambrose is just getting started.
  zh: 再说一次，安布罗斯才刚刚开始。
- start: 1966.307
  end: 1970.49
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So you see how the Holy Family comes out of Egypt.
  zh: 所以你看到圣家族如何从埃及出来。
- start: 1970.49
  end: 1976.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus passes through the water of the Jordan, and he goes out into the desert to fast for 40 days.
  zh: 耶稣经过约旦河的水，然后进入旷野禁食四十天。
- start: 1976.595
  end: 1984.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then likewise, you go back and Moses leads Israel out of Egypt through the water of the Red Sea, where they go into the desert.
  zh: 同样地，你回去看，摩西带领以色列人出埃及，经过红海的水，进入旷野。
- start: 1984.585
  end: 1990.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And he fasts for 40 days and 40 nights during which time Israel undergoes the temptations.
  zh: 他禁食四十昼夜，在此期间以色列人经历试探。
- start: 1990.209
  end: 1994.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus passed the tests that Israel failed, but all three times.
  zh: 耶稣通过了以色列失败的试验，但三次都通过了。
- start: 1994.973
  end: 1996.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He didn't just quote the Old Testament.
  zh: 他不仅仅引用旧约。
- start: 1996.614
  end: 1998.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The devil does that in one of the instances.
  zh: 魔鬼在其中一个例子中也这样做。
- start: 1998.876
  end: 2010.647
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But he quotes from Deuteronomy 6 through 8. You go back and the Father showed me that that's precisely where Jesus, that's where Moses had explained to the Israelites  Why did you fail?
  zh: 但他引用了申命记六到八章。你回去看，父亲向我展示了那正是耶稣所在的地方，那是摩西向以色列人解释的地方：你们为什么失败？
- start: 2010.668
  end: 2012.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because man doesn't live by bread alone.
  zh: 因为人活着不是单靠食物。
- start: 2012.788
  end: 2016.089
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, and these parallels, you know, and there were more.
  zh: 是的，这些平行，你知道，还有更多。
- start: 2016.089
  end: 2028.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So that after fasting for 40 days, he gets the law on Mount Sinai, he gives it to the 12 tribes, and then after Jesus' 40-day fast and passing the tests, he gives the Sermon on the Mount.
  zh: 所以在禁食四十天后，他在西奈山得到律法，交给十二支派，然后在耶稣禁食四十天并通过试验后，他发表了登山宝训。
- start: 2028.853
  end: 2032.915
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, and he says, I've not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law and the prophets.
  zh: 你知道，他说，我来不是要废掉律法，而是要成全律法和先知。
- start: 2032.915
  end: 2040.239
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so Moses gives the law, but it's not enough, so he chooses  From the twelve tribes, the twelve princes who will help them govern.
  zh: 所以摩西颁布律法，但这还不够，所以他从十二支派中选择了十二个首领来帮助他们治理。
- start: 2040.26
  end: 2042.141
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus gives the Sermon on the Mount.
  zh: 耶稣发表了登山宝训。
- start: 2042.202
  end: 2045.484
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's the law of the New Covenant, not abolishing but fulfilling the Old.
  zh: 这是新约的律法，不是废掉而是成全旧约。
- start: 2045.745
  end: 2048.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The next thing he does is to choose the twelve disciples.
  zh: 接下来他做的就是选择十二个门徒。
- start: 2048.827
  end: 2055.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, Moses found he needed more, so he appoints seventy other men and he anoints them with the Spirit.
  zh: 摩西发现他需要更多的人，所以他任命了七十个其他人，并用圣灵膏抹他们。
- start: 2055.793
  end: 2062.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus says the harvest is plentiful, the labors are few, so he appoints seventy other disciples and anoints them.
  zh: 耶稣说，庄稼多，工人少，所以他任命了七十个其他门徒并膏抹他们。
- start: 2064.258
  end: 2069.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Moses goes up the mountain to spend a day in prayer with the Lord.
  zh: 摩西上山与主一起祷告一天。
- start: 2069.742
  end: 2071.863
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He takes Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu.
  zh: 他带着亚伦、拿答和亚比户。
- start: 2071.863
  end: 2074.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus goes up the mountain to spend a day in prayer.
  zh: 耶稣上山祷告一天。
- start: 2074.625
  end: 2076.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He takes Peter, James, and John.
  zh: 他带着彼得、雅各和约翰。
- start: 2077.226
  end: 2080.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the transfiguration occurs to Jesus just like it did to Moses.
  zh: 耶稣的变像就像摩西的变像一样发生。
- start: 2080.688
  end: 2081.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Crazy!
  zh: 太神奇了！
- start: 2081.369
  end: 2083.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: When his face is aglow, they're like, you've got to put on a veil.
  zh: 当他的脸发光时，他们就像，你得戴上面纱。
- start: 2083.67
  end: 2085.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We can't even look in your countenance.
  zh: 我们甚至不能看你的面容。
- start: 2085.632
  end: 2089.694
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then on the Mount of Transfiguration, who should appear but Moses and Elijah.
  zh: 然后在变像山上，出现的不是别人，正是摩西和以利亚。
- start: 2091.417
  end: 2092.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The Law and the Prophets.
  zh: 律法和先知。
- start: 2092.297
  end: 2093.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Moses gave the Law.
  zh: 摩西颁布了律法。
- start: 2093.358
  end: 2095.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Elijah was the greatest of Israel's prophets.
  zh: 以利亚是以色列最伟大的先知。
- start: 2095.739
  end: 2099.12
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They also happened to survive a 40-day fast like our Lord.
  zh: 他们也恰好像我们的主一样经历了四十天的禁食。
- start: 2099.321
  end: 2106.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But what they're talking about, Ambrose points out in Luke 9.31, is Jesus' departure, which was soon to take place in Jerusalem.
  zh: 但他们谈论的内容，安布罗斯在路加福音9章31节指出，是耶稣的离世，即将在耶路撒冷发生。
- start: 2106.984
  end: 2110.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Only the word for departure in the Greek is exodon.
  zh: 只是希腊语中“离世”这个词是exodon。
- start: 2111.026
  end: 2117.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so here is Jesus talking about a new exodus to Moses, who's none other than Mr. Exodus himself.
  zh: 所以这里是耶稣在对摩西谈论一个新的出埃及记，而摩西正是出埃及记的代表。
- start: 2117.805
  end: 2159.282
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If they had bothered to compare notes, Ambrose points out, and Augustine too, where, you know, Moses performed some signs, you know, the first turning water into blood, the first of Jesus' signs is turning water into wine, you know, Moses is also executing the, well, I mean, he's healing lepers, he's also, what are some of these other, he's opposed by the leaders and persecuted, and, you know, and Jesus undergoes all of these parallel experiences  And then, of course, the Passover is the tenth sign, and Jesus, of course, is going to create a new Passover, which is what Ambrose fastened his congregation's attention to, because that's the Eucharist.
  zh: 如果他们愿意比较一下笔记，安布罗斯指出，奥古斯丁也是如此，你知道，摩西行了一些神迹，比如第一个是把水变成血，耶稣的第一个神迹是把水变成酒，你知道，摩西也在执行，嗯，我是说，他在医治麻风病人，他还做了一些其他的事情，他被领袖们反对和迫害，你知道，耶稣经历了所有这些平行的经历，然后，当然，逾越节是第十个神迹，耶稣当然要创造一个新的逾越节，这就是安布罗斯吸引他会众注意的地方，因为那就是圣餐。
- start: 2159.282
  end: 2160.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's the fulfillment of the Old.
  zh: 那是旧约的成全。
- start: 2160.702
  end: 2162.263
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's where Jesus establishes the New.
  zh: 那是耶稣建立新约的地方。
- start: 2162.263
  end: 2165.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I can just imagine you reading this, because, of course, the Internet doesn't exist, right?
  zh: 我可以想象你在读这些，因为，当然，那时没有互联网，对吧？
- start: 2165.485
  end: 2170.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're just reading these books that may not have been very well read by other Protestant friends of yours.
  zh: 你只是在读这些可能没有被你其他新教朋友很好地阅读过的书。
- start: 2170.648
  end: 2174.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Are you sort of looking around, being like, does anybody know about this?
  zh: 你是不是有点环顾四周，想知道有没有人知道这些？
- start: 2174.45
  end: 2175.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 2175.111
  end: 2178.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, we had been debating my last year in seminary.
  zh: 你知道，我们在神学院的最后一年一直在辩论。
- start: 2178.914
  end: 2185.419
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We were all involved, my professor and a few of my classmates, in the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy.
  zh: 我们都参与了，我的教授和我的几个同学，参与了国际圣经无误委员会。
- start: 2185.44
  end: 2187.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So we had a high view of Scripture.
  zh: 所以我们对圣经有很高的看法。
- start: 2187.281
  end: 2191.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But there was a debate that was dividing all of these scholars and teachers and students.
  zh: 但有一个辩论正在分裂所有这些学者、教师和学生。
- start: 2191.765
  end: 2195.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Dare we repeat the hermeneutic of the New Testament writers?
  zh: 我们敢重复新约作者的诠释学吗？
- start: 2195.488
  end: 2202.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In other words, can we possibly read the Old Testament  The way that the New Testament writers did.
  zh: 换句话说，我们能否像新约作者那样阅读旧约。
- start: 2202.135
  end: 2208.816
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because they did it in a way that was reminiscent of the early church fathers who were just simply imitating their example.
  zh: 因为他们的做法让人想起早期教父，他们只是简单地模仿他们的榜样。
- start: 2208.936
  end: 2210.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But we never did it that way.
  zh: 但我们从未那样做过。
- start: 2210.657
  end: 2222.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the vast majority of Protestant evangelical scholars, even the narratists, like Richard Longnecker would say, no, they had the Holy Spirit, they were apostles, they had a kind of interpretive license.
  zh: 而绝大多数新教福音派学者，甚至是叙述学家，如理查德·朗内克都会说，不，他们有圣灵，他们是使徒，他们有一种解释的许可。
- start: 2222.46
  end: 2227.461
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They could even misinterpret the scriptures, but come up with the right teachings anyway.
  zh: 他们甚至可以误解圣经，但无论如何得出正确的教义。
- start: 2227.502
  end: 2240.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Whereas the minority report,  A small number of Protestants who said, of course, you know, Paul didn't say imitate me as I imitate Christ, except when it comes to interpreting the Old Testament.
  zh: 而少数派报告，一小部分新教徒说，当然，你知道，保罗没有说像我效法基督那样效法我，除了在解释旧约时。
- start: 2240.213
  end: 2243.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's where I alone get to do what I do, you know.
  zh: 那是我一个人可以做我所做的事情的地方，你知道。
- start: 2243.537
  end: 2251.628
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so just imitating Christ who taught the scriptures this way, imitating Paul who taught his congregations,  I'm still absorbing this.
  zh: 所以只是模仿这样教导圣经的基督，模仿教导他会众的保罗，我仍在吸收这些。
- start: 2251.628
  end: 2269.761
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm about seven or eight weeks into the study of the Fathers, when I unpack the U-Haul, I have to preach my first sermon, and I'm going through the Gospels, and afterwards, for the first three or four weeks, people are in the back shaking my hand as they're leaving, saying, where did you come up with this?
  zh: 我大约研究教父七八周，当我卸下U-Haul时，我必须讲我的第一篇道，我正在阅读福音书，之后，在前三四周，人们在离开时在后面握着我的手，说，你是从哪里想到这些的？
- start: 2269.761
  end: 2274.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Oh, through serious personal research and study, a lot of intellectual initiative.
  zh: 哦，通过认真个人研究和学习，很多智力上的主动性。
- start: 2274.565
  end: 2304.33
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, I should have been using quotation marks behind the pulpit the whole time, because  I was plundering the patristic sources and after a few months I began to let them in on that and invite them to read it with me and a number of them began going down a trail which we wouldn't know exactly where it would lead but in less than two years I had studied and prayed myself into a crisis of faith because I also discovered besides these ancient fathers  Subtitles by the Amara.org
  zh: 你知道，我应该一直在讲台后面使用引号，因为我在掠夺教父的资料，几个月后我开始让他们知道这一点，并邀请他们与我一起阅读，其中一些人开始走上一条我们不知道确切会通向何处的道路，但不到两年我就通过研究和祷告陷入了信仰危机，因为我还发现除了这些古代教父之外  字幕由Amara.org提供
- start: 2304.33
  end: 2325.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: community  The same way of doing theology, biblically, that you found in the early church fathers.
  zh: 社区  你在早期教父中发现的同样的圣经神学方法。
- start: 2325.683
  end: 2329.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're reading Ratzinger as a Protestant now, as a pastor of this church.
  zh: 你现在作为新教徒，作为这个教会的牧师在阅读拉辛格。
- start: 2329.086
  end: 2329.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 2329.867
  end: 2330.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What was that like?
  zh: 那是什么感觉？
- start: 2330.668
  end: 2337.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because you've read this book about contraception, you've changed your mind on that, but as you say, a broken clock is still right twice a day.
  zh: 因为你读了这本关于避孕的书，你改变了对那件事的看法，但正如你所说，坏钟每天也有两次是对的。
- start: 2337.771
  end: 2339.832
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How did you start reading Catholic sources?
  zh: 你是如何开始阅读天主教资料的？
- start: 2339.832
  end: 2342.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What was that like for you, as someone who was anti-Catholic?
  zh: 作为一个反天主教的人，这对你来说是什么感觉？
- start: 2342.393
  end: 2344.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to summarize it.
  zh: 是的，我的意思是，这很难总结。
- start: 2344.233
  end: 2351.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was even hard to explain it then, but the sense that they're not just right on contraception.
  zh: 那时甚至很难解释，但感觉他们不仅仅是在避孕上是对的。
- start: 2351.116
  end: 2353.997
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They're not just right on reading the old and the new together.
  zh: 他们不仅仅是在一起阅读旧约和新约上是对的。
- start: 2353.997
  end: 2356.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They're applying that to the Eucharist.
  zh: 他们将其应用于圣餐。
- start: 2357.038
  end: 2358.498
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We call it the Lord's Supper.
  zh: 我们称之为主的晚餐。
- start: 2358.498
  end: 2359.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's just a meal.
  zh: 这只是一顿饭。
- start: 2359.538
  end: 2360.718
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But wait a minute.
  zh: 但等一下。
- start: 2360.718
  end: 2363.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: For them, universally, it was a sacrifice.
  zh: 对他们来说，普遍认为这是一个祭献。
- start: 2363.639
  end: 2368.779
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It would make more sense if it was a sacrifice because it's the Passover of the New Covenant.
  zh: 如果这是一个祭献会更有意义，因为这是新约的逾越节。
- start: 2368.84
  end: 2370.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But how can it be a sacrifice?
  zh: 但它怎么能是一个祭献呢？
- start: 2370.92
  end: 2376.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So these questions that were rising in my mind were being answered by the patristic sources.
  zh: 所以这些在我脑海中浮现的问题正在被教父的资料解答。
- start: 2376.821
  end: 2381.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so the first thing I did as a pastor was to implement weekly communion.
  zh: 所以我作为牧师做的第一件事就是实施每周的圣餐。
- start: 2382.102
  end: 2383.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We did it four times a year.
  zh: 我们一年做四次。
- start: 2383.925
  end: 2385.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And they thought, well, that's just ritualism.
  zh: 他们认为，那只是仪式主义。
- start: 2385.486
  end: 2387.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I said, well, it's the renewal of the covenant.
  zh: 我说，那是约的更新。
- start: 2387.927
  end: 2397.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I said to my elders, you know, who formed a session of the congregation, you know, it is the liturgical counterpart to renewing your marriage covenant.
  zh: 所以我对我的长老们说，你们知道，形成了会众的一次会议，你们知道，这是更新你们婚姻之约的礼仪对应。
- start: 2397.391
  end: 2401.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, and so four times a year otherwise, you know, familiarity breeds contempt.
  zh: 你知道，一年四次，否则，熟悉会滋生轻视。
- start: 2401.293
  end: 2402.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's just ritualism.
  zh: 这只是仪式主义。
- start: 2402.613
  end: 2404.514
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I got a unanimous vote eventually.
  zh: 所以我最终得到了全票通过。
- start: 2404.514
  end: 2406.094
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Let's do it weekly.
  zh: 让我们每周都做。
- start: 2406.315
  end: 2414.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so when we change to weekly communions,  It really changed the way we were experiencing God's Word as a congregation.
  zh: 所以当我们改为每周的圣餐时，这确实改变了我们作为会众体验神的道的方式。
- start: 2414.174
  end: 2415.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The sacraments, too.
  zh: 圣事也是如此。
- start: 2415.894
  end: 2426.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, I mean, I was saying that we are reformed Protestant Catholics, that the Roman Catholics get it wrong, but there's still so much that they have right.
  zh: 所以，我的意思是，我在说我们是改革的新教天主教徒，罗马天主教徒错了，但他们仍然有很多是对的。
- start: 2426.58
  end: 2429.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We can no longer just make this the syllogism.
  zh: 我们不能再只是把这当作三段论。
- start: 2429.955
  end: 2431.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If it's Roman, it's wrong.
  zh: 如果是罗马的，那就是错的。
- start: 2431.916
  end: 2437.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now we've got to look and see if they might be right every once in a while, because the blind hog gets the acorn.
  zh: 现在我们必须看看他们是否偶尔是对的，因为瞎猪也能找到橡子。
- start: 2437.697
  end: 2438.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And again...
  zh: 再一次……
- start: 2438.398
  end: 2439.918
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But who put Ratzinger in your hand?
  zh: 但是谁把拉辛格放在你手里？
- start: 2439.918
  end: 2441.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How did you end up with him?
  zh: 你是怎么遇到他的？
- start: 2441.459
  end: 2445.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, I spent a lot of time in used bookstores, then and now.
  zh: 嗯，我过去和现在都花了很多时间在旧书店里。
- start: 2445.18
  end: 2446.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, it's like a second home.
  zh: 我的意思是，这就像第二个家。
- start: 2446.5
  end: 2446.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I love it.
  zh: 我喜欢它。
- start: 2446.82
  end: 2448.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I love these bookstores.
  zh: 我喜欢这些书店。
- start: 2448.401
  end: 2450.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You get lost in there.
  zh: 你会迷失在其中。
- start: 2450.341
  end: 2456.983
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, when we were reading Gary Smaldy's book, The Languages of Love, we figured out all of our kids.
  zh: 你知道，当我们在读加里·斯莫尔迪的《爱的语言》这本书时，我们了解了我们所有的孩子。
- start: 2456.983
  end: 2463.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We figured out Mom, but they couldn't figure out Dad until  My daughter, you know, the love language is books.
  zh: 我们了解了妈妈，但他们一直不了解爸爸，直到我的女儿，你知道，爱的语言是书。
- start: 2463.286
  end: 2464.266
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's my love language.
  zh: 那是我的爱的语言。
- start: 2464.266
  end: 2467.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I would spend a lot of time in these bookstores.
  zh: 但我会花很多时间在这些书店里。
- start: 2467.347
  end: 2471.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I had found Donya Lou's The Bible and the Liturgy from Shadow to Reality.
  zh: 我找到了唐雅·卢的《圣经与礼仪：从影子到现实》。
- start: 2471.469
  end: 2472.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I read the Lou Buck.
  zh: 我读了卢·巴克的书。
- start: 2472.489
  end: 2477.931
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I stumbled upon, it was a box of books for a dime.
  zh: 于是我偶然发现了一箱书，只要一角钱。
- start: 2478.071
  end: 2481.272
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And there was a battered copy of Introduction to Christianity by Ratzinger.
  zh: 里面有一本破旧的拉辛格的《基督教导论》。
- start: 2481.272
  end: 2482.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I didn't know who he was.
  zh: 我不知道他是谁。
- start: 2482.252
  end: 2485.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Seabury published it, so it might be Methodist or Episcopalian.
  zh: 是西伯里出版社出版的，所以可能是循道宗或英国圣公会的。
- start: 2485.655
  end: 2489.356
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm reading it, and 30 or 40 pages, it still isn't obvious that he's Catholic.
  zh: 我在读它，读了三四十页，仍然不明显他是天主教徒。
- start: 2489.356
  end: 2494.557
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm like, this guy thinks like me, only more and better.
  zh: 我就想，这个人的思维方式和我一样，只是更好。
- start: 2494.557
  end: 2498.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's the covenant, it is communion, it is family, it is God his Father.
  zh: 这是约，这是相交，这是家庭，这是神他的父亲。
- start: 2498.758
  end: 2503.378
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then I kept reading, and I'm like, I'm getting deeper and deeper and more in trouble.
  zh: 然后我继续读下去，我就想，我越来越深入，麻烦也越来越大。
- start: 2503.418
  end: 2521.275
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And he recasts soteriology so that it's no longer the case that God the Father is looking down on Jesus, hanging on the cross,  And he can't see his beloved son, he can only see our sin, and so he's only bearing the wrath that is being vented by the Father, you know, that was really deserved by us.
  zh: 他重新阐述了救赎论，不再是圣父俯视挂在十字架上的耶稣，他看不到他心爱的儿子，只能看到我们的罪，因此他只是在承受圣父发泄的愤怒，你知道，那是我们真正应得的。
- start: 2521.275
  end: 2523.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that always bothered me.
  zh: 这一直困扰着我。
- start: 2523.156
  end: 2527.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I always defended it, because that was the gospel according to Luther and Calvin.
  zh: 我一直为此辩护，因为那是根据路德和加尔文的福音。
- start: 2527.199
  end: 2538.685
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I thought, for Paul, and Ratzinger was explaining the deep logic of the atonement through Jesus' suffering in a way that was not substitutionary, but representative, as he put it.
  zh: 我想，对于保罗来说，拉辛格通过耶稣的受难以一种不是替代性的，而是代表性的方式解释了赎罪的深层逻辑，正如他所说。
- start: 2538.685
  end: 2541.066
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm like, yeah, that's the new Adam.
  zh: 我就想，是的，那是新的亚当。
- start: 2541.42
  end: 2548.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, by now, I realize that my integrity requires me to resign from the church.
  zh: 所以，到现在，我意识到我的正直要求我从教会辞职。
- start: 2548.646
  end: 2551.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'd also been teaching at a local Presbyterian seminary.
  zh: 我还在当地的长老会神学院任教。
- start: 2551.428
  end: 2553.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, why did you have to resign?
  zh: 那么，你为什么必须辞职？
- start: 2553.049
  end: 2556.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, why couldn't you just adopt certain elements?
  zh: 我的意思是，为什么你不能只采用某些元素？
- start: 2557.052
  end: 2559.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, I mean, I was so flexible.
  zh: 是的，我的意思是，我是如此灵活。
- start: 2559.414
  end: 2560.475
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was so adaptable.
  zh: 我非常适应。
- start: 2560.475
  end: 2569.441
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was adapting every element to the Protestant world, you know, thinking if I'm out in front and I am moving towards small-c Catholic things, I can take them.
  zh: 我在将每个元素适应新教世界，你知道，想着如果我在前面并且正在向小写的天主教事物靠近，我可以接受它们。
- start: 2569.441
  end: 2570.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I did.
  zh: 所以我做到了。
- start: 2570.771
  end: 2579.276
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Week after week, for months and months, but as I approached my first year and beyond, I began to realize I am hiding secrets from them.
  zh: 周复一周，月复一月，但当我接近第一年及以后时，我开始意识到我在对他们隐瞒秘密。
- start: 2579.276
  end: 2583.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And you know the adage, you don't keep secrets, secrets keep you.
  zh: 你知道那句谚语，你不保守秘密，秘密会束缚你。
- start: 2583.338
  end: 2588.961
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I was also hearing applause, you know, oh, your teaching, your preaching is so good.
  zh: 所以我也听到了掌声，你知道，哦，你的教学，你的讲道是如此好。
- start: 2588.961
  end: 2592.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I was invited to teach some courses at the local Presbyterian seminary.
  zh: 所以我被邀请在当地的长老会神学院教授一些课程。
- start: 2592.723
  end: 2594.884
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And those went even better than the sermons.
  zh: 那些课程进行得比讲道还要好。
- start: 2594.884
  end: 2599.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so they invited me to consider being the dean of the seminary.
  zh: 所以他们邀请我考虑成为神学院的院长。
- start: 2599.192
  end: 2603.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I met with the chairman of the board one day for lunch to kind of show him, I don't have my doctorate.
  zh: 所以有一天我和董事会主席共进午餐，想向他展示，我没有博士学位。
- start: 2603.453
  end: 2605.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: This makes no sense at all.
  zh: 这完全没有道理。
- start: 2605.354
  end: 2606.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And he said, we've discussed it.
  zh: 他说，我们已经讨论过了。
- start: 2606.935
  end: 2607.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We voted.
  zh: 我们投票了。
- start: 2607.435
  end: 2608.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's unanimous.
  zh: 这是全票通过的。
- start: 2608.095
  end: 2609.896
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We want to offer you the job to be the dean.
  zh: 我们想给你提供院长的职位。
- start: 2609.896
  end: 2612.797
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You could teach the courses you want, redesign the curriculum.
  zh: 你可以教授你想要的课程，重新设计课程。
- start: 2612.797
  end: 2614.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm like, I would need a doctorate.
  zh: 我就想，我需要一个博士学位。
- start: 2614.217
  end: 2615.197
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, we'll pay for that.
  zh: 好吧，我们会支付费用。
- start: 2615.197
  end: 2622.378
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You'll go to Catholic U. And it was at that moment I realized  Okay, I'm being duplicitous.
  zh: 你会去天主教大学。就在那一刻，我意识到好吧，我在两面三刀。
- start: 2622.378
  end: 2625.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I said to Steve, I can't tell you why.
  zh: 我对史蒂夫说，我不能告诉你为什么。
- start: 2625.279
  end: 2627.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I must say no, but I must say no.
  zh: 我必须说不，但我必须说不。
- start: 2627.58
  end: 2630.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Oh my goodness, because this must have been your dream job.
  zh: 哦，我的天哪，因为这一定是你的梦想工作。
- start: 2630.422
  end: 2635.944
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was the dream of a lifetime that I thought I might have when I'm 50, and I'm barely 30 at this point, not even.
  zh: 这是我以为我可能在50岁时会有的终生梦想，而我现在还不到30岁，甚至还不到。
- start: 2636.364
  end: 2637.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I go home.
  zh: 于是我回家。
- start: 2637.245
  end: 2640.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Kimberly has been fasting and praying for me, thinking that I might be fired.
  zh: 金伯利一直在为我禁食祷告，以为我可能会被解雇。
- start: 2640.566
  end: 2641.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Good wife.
  zh: 好妻子。
- start: 2641.387
  end: 2642.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2642.107
  end: 2644.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when I told her what he offered me, she was jubilant.
  zh: 当我告诉她他给我提供了什么时，她欣喜若狂。
- start: 2644.928
  end: 2648.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: When I told her what I said to him,  I thought she was going to slug me.
  zh: 当我告诉她我对他说了什么时，我以为她要打我。
- start: 2648.919
  end: 2652.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then she asked me, why would you say no?
  zh: 然后她问我，你为什么会说不？
- start: 2652.421
  end: 2661.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And all I could say, it just came out sideways, was someday I'm going to have to stand before our Lord and give an account for what I taught the people he died for.
  zh: 我唯一能说的，只是侧面表达出来的，就是有一天我将不得不站在我们的主面前，为我教导他为之而死的人们的内容作出交代。
- start: 2661.386
  end: 2662.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I used to know what it was.
  zh: 我曾经知道那是什么。
- start: 2662.807
  end: 2663.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now I'm not so sure.
  zh: 现在我不太确定。
- start: 2663.788
  end: 2669.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I will not be able to hide behind my favorite professors and say, Lord, I just taught what I heard them teach me.
  zh: 我不能躲在我最喜欢的教授后面说，主啊，我只是教了他们教我的东西。
- start: 2669.772
  end: 2671.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And at this point, I don't know.
  zh: 而在这一点上，我不知道。
- start: 2671.913
  end: 2673.774
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so she hugged me.
  zh: 于是她拥抱了我。
- start: 2673.774
  end: 2675.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And she said, oh, I respect your integrity.
  zh: 她说，哦，我尊重你的正直。
- start: 2675.959
  end: 2691.047
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm thinking, well, that will not put food on the table, you know, because I could sense that this was the end of my career as a seminary professor, never becoming a dean, as a pastor as well for a growing congregation that was getting more and more excited.
  zh: 我在想，好吧，那不能让我们有饭吃，你知道，因为我能感觉到这是我作为神学院教授的职业生涯的终结，永远不会成为院长，也不会成为一个越来越兴奋的会众的牧师。
- start: 2691.248
  end: 2693.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so she asked me, what does this mean?
  zh: 于是她问我，这意味着什么？
- start: 2693.509
  end: 2695.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm like, I'm going to have to resign.
  zh: 我就说，我必须辞职。
- start: 2695.23
  end: 2698.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And she looked at me like, OK, so much for integrity.
  zh: 她看着我，好像在说，好吧，正直就到此为止了。
- start: 2698.532
  end: 2702.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, OK, you have to, but what are we going to do, you know?
  zh: 我的意思是，好吧，你必须这样做，但我们该怎么办，你知道吗？
- start: 2702.39
  end: 2708.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Just a question here, because sometimes we can mischaracterize Protestants as not believing in the real presence, whereas we do.
  zh: 这里有个问题，因为有时我们可能会误认为新教徒不相信真实临在，而我们是相信的。
- start: 2708.613
  end: 2713.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Obviously Protestantism or Protestantisms is a broad range.
  zh: 显然，新教或新教主义是一个广泛的范围。
- start: 2713.134
  end: 2716.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So why get so scared at this point?
  zh: 那么为什么在这一点上如此害怕呢？
- start: 2716.336
  end: 2724.962
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why not just think, well, Catholicism has some true beliefs,  But there are Protestant denominations that also hold those beliefs, so I just need to find the Protestant denominations.
  zh: 为什么不只是想，好吧，天主教有一些真实的信仰，但也有一些新教教派持有这些信仰，所以我只需要找到那些新教教派。
- start: 2724.962
  end: 2725.362
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 2725.362
  end: 2745.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I was trying to prove to myself, to my seminarians, and to my parishioners that the overlap between Catholic and Protestant is not 5 or 10, but more like 45, 50, 60, 65, 70%. And when we were doing the communion, the weekly communion, we were still calling it the Lord's Supper.
  zh: 所以我试图向我自己、我的神学院学生和我的会众证明，天主教和新教之间的重叠不是5或10，而是更像45、50、60、65、70%。当我们进行圣餐，每周的圣餐时，我们仍然称之为主的晚餐。
- start: 2745.488
  end: 2749.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would refer to it as the Eucharist, because the early church fathers did.
  zh: 我会称之为圣餐，因为早期教父是这样做的。
- start: 2749.793
  end: 2753.635
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But when I would explain real presence, I could actually quote Calvin.
  zh: 但当我解释真实临在时，我实际上可以引用加尔文。
- start: 2753.635
  end: 2760.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'd used Wallace's book, Calvin and the Sacraments, as my text for teaching the seminary course on the sacraments.
  zh: 我用过华莱士的书《加尔文与圣事》作为我教授神学院圣事课程的教材。
- start: 2760.018
  end: 2767.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But whenever it came to Calvin explaining what he means by real presence, he would always default to spiritual presence.
  zh: 但每当涉及到加尔文解释他所说的真实临在时，他总是默认为属灵临在。
- start: 2767.321
  end: 2768.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But it's real presence.
  zh: 但这是现实的临在。
- start: 2768.522
  end: 2770.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm thinking, OK, what does that mean?
  zh: 我在想，好吧，那是什么意思？
- start: 2770.963
  end: 2772.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: How do you flesh it out?
  zh: 你如何具体化它？
- start: 2772.704
  end: 2774.504
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, no pun intended.
  zh: 我的意思是，没有双关语的意思。
- start: 2774.504
  end: 2778.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I mean, is there more Holy Spirit packed per square inch?
  zh: 但我的意思是，每平方英寸有更多的圣灵吗？
- start: 2778.618
  end: 2781.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There, at the Eucharist, then everywhere else.
  zh: 在那里，在圣餐中，然后是其他地方。
- start: 2781.62
  end: 2792.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, it just doesn't make sense to reduce real presence to spiritual presence when the early patristic sources are unanimous about it being his body, his blood, soul, and divinity.
  zh: 你知道，当早期教父的资料一致认为这是他的身体、他的血、灵魂和神性时，将真实临在简化为属灵临在是没有意义的。
- start: 2792.205
  end: 2794.986
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: His resurrected body, but his body.
  zh: 他的复活的身体，但仍然是他的身体。
- start: 2795.466
  end: 2801.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I realized, you know, you could only play that game up to a point, and now you're just playing games.
  zh: 于是我意识到，你知道，你只能玩到某个程度，现在你只是在玩游戏。
- start: 2801.269
  end: 2805.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, I felt like, I even told Kimberly, I feel like I'm playing church.
  zh: 事实上，我感觉，我甚至告诉金伯利，我觉得我在玩教会。
- start: 2805.586
  end: 2816.588
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I am pretending to be able to confect the Eucharist when it's obvious from Scripture and the Fathers that I am playing church, that I am not really confecting what they would have identified as the Eucharist.
  zh: 我假装能够制作圣餐，而从圣经和教父的角度来看，很明显我在玩教会，我并没有真正制作他们所认定的圣餐。
- start: 2816.588
  end: 2818.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There's no laying out of hands through the bishop.
  zh: 没有通过主教的按手礼。
- start: 2818.889
  end: 2823.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: These elders have laid their hands upon me using the Orthodox Presbyterian Church black book.
  zh: 这些长老用正统长老会的黑皮书按手在我身上。
- start: 2823.77
  end: 2829.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But it just began to feel like a close counterfeit to the real Catholic faith.
  zh: 但这开始感觉像是对真正天主教信仰的近似伪造。
- start: 2829.431
  end: 2837.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, you know, I told Kimberly, I'm going to go in search of a church  Episcopalian perhaps, probably Orthodox, so I began to look at the Eastern and the Russian Orthodox churches and all.
  zh: 于是，我告诉金伯利，我要去寻找一个教会，也许是英国圣公会，可能是东正教，所以我开始研究东正教和俄罗斯东正教教会等等。
- start: 2854.449
  end: 2872.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I came away, I can't go into this, I promise, but I came away convinced that the arguments against the filioque being added, the arguments against the filioque being true, the filioque clause is just that part of the Nicene Creed where the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
  zh: 我离开时，我不能详细说这个，我保证，但我离开时确信反对添加filioque的论点，反对filioque为真的论点，filioque条款就是尼西亚信经中圣灵从圣父和圣子而出的那部分。
- start: 2873.325
  end: 2880.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And this is really a kind of article of division for East and West, and so the Orthodox deny it.
  zh: 这实际上是东西方分裂的一种条款，所以东正教否认它。
- start: 2880.76
  end: 2885.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in the Eastern Rite churches, you don't deny it, but you don't have to profess it.
  zh: 在东方礼教会中，你不否认它，但你不必宣认它。
- start: 2885.903
  end: 2897.81
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I realized, okay, you know, I'm not going to be able to go Orthodox, even though their grasp of the liturgy encompassing heaven and earth matches what I'm finding in the Fathers.
  zh: 于是我意识到，好吧，你知道，我不能去东正教，尽管他们对涵盖天地的礼仪的掌握与我在教父中发现的相符。
- start: 2898.03
  end: 2901.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But so did Jerome and others as well in the West.
  zh: 但在西方，耶柔米和其他人也是如此。
- start: 2901.272
  end: 2903.814
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So at this point, I'm just in the desert.
  zh: 所以在这一点上，我只是在旷野中。
- start: 2903.814
  end: 2907.616
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Kimberly and I moved back to the college town where we first met and fell in love.
  zh: 金伯利和我搬回了我们第一次相遇并相爱的大学城。
- start: 2907.797
  end: 2913.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I am applying for a job at Kroger's, the local grocery store, filling out an application to be a box boy.
  zh: 我正在申请克罗格的工作，当地的杂货店，填写申请成为一个包装工。
- start: 2913.621
  end: 2915.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I just have to make some money.
  zh: 我只是需要赚点钱。
- start: 2916.243
  end: 2920.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I see the president of the college where both of us had graduated.
  zh: 于是我看到了我们俩毕业的大学的校长。
- start: 2920.125
  end: 2921.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He asked me what I'm doing.
  zh: 他问我在做什么。
- start: 2921.046
  end: 2924.408
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Oh, I'm just here, you know, at the grocery store.
  zh: 哦，我就在这里，你知道，在杂货店。
- start: 2924.428
  end: 2927.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And he says, you know, I heard you were back in town.
  zh: 他说，你知道，我听说你回到镇上了。
- start: 2927.57
  end: 2928.411
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I've got an opening.
  zh: 我有一个空缺。
- start: 2928.411
  end: 2931.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Would you consider applying to be the assistant to the president?
  zh: 你会考虑申请成为校长助理吗？
- start: 2931.293
  end: 2933.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It would mean fundraising, part-time teaching.
  zh: 这意味着筹款，兼职教学。
- start: 2933.334
  end: 2935.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm like, twist my arm, please.
  zh: 我就想，求你了，扭我的胳膊吧。
- start: 2935.515
  end: 2936.956
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would love to.
  zh: 我很愿意。
- start: 2937.17
  end: 2946.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, within a 24-hour period, I filled out the application to be a box boy at Kroger's grocery store and ended up being, for two years, the assistant to the president.
  zh: 于是，在24小时内，我填写了克罗格杂货店包装工的申请，结果做了两年的校长助理。
- start: 2946.098
  end: 2955.363
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I got a part-time job at the two Presbyterian churches  Doing youth ministry, which I thought was safe because I wouldn't be going into doctrine, I wouldn't be doing sermons.
  zh: 我在两个长老会教堂找了一份兼职工作，做青年事工，我认为这是安全的，因为我不会涉及教义，我不会讲道。
- start: 2956.164
  end: 2963.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Although I ended up teaching them all about the covenant as family, pointing to the church, which is international and Catholic.
  zh: 尽管我最终教他们所有关于约作为家庭的知识，指向教会，这是国际的和公教会的。
- start: 2963.509
  end: 2977.34
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And, you know, so I think about 14 or 15 out of the 20 high school kids I was teaching ended up becoming Catholics within the next 10 or 15 years, which made me persona non grata at those congregations.
  zh: 而且，你知道，我教的20个高中生中大约有14或15个在接下来的10或15年里成为了天主教徒，这使我在那些会众中成为不受欢迎的人。
- start: 2977.754
  end: 2987.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And after two years, it became clear to me that I had to dive into this for a doctoral program to really make certain that I knew what I was doing.
  zh: 两年后，我清楚地意识到我必须深入研究这个博士项目，以真正确定我知道自己在做什么。
- start: 2987.542
  end: 2996.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, reluctantly, Kimberly agreed that we could move to Marquette, Milwaukee, where Marquette had offered me a full ride, a scholarship.
  zh: 于是，金伯利勉强同意我们可以搬到密尔沃基的马凯特，马凯特给我提供了全额奖学金。
- start: 2996.128
  end: 2999.691
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'd gotten to offer a full scholarship at Notre Dame as well.
  zh: 我也获得了圣母大学的全额奖学金。
- start: 2999.867
  end: 3008.696
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They didn't have the people that I found at Marquette, Father Keith, who was an expert on covenant theology, and this other material that I loved so much.
  zh: 他们没有我在马凯特找到的人，基思神父，他是约神学的专家，还有我非常喜欢的其他资料。
- start: 3008.696
  end: 3020.239
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So that summer of 85, we moved out to Milwaukee from Grove City, Pennsylvania, but not before she had extracted a pledge from me that I would wait at least five years  Subtitles by the Amara.org
  zh: 所以在85年夏天，我们从宾夕法尼亚州的格罗夫城搬到了密尔沃基，但在此之前，她从我那里提取了一个承诺，我会等待至少五年  字幕由Amara.org提供
- start: 3020.239
  end: 3040.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: community  I wondered, what if any of that is left in a Mass?
  zh: 社区  我想知道，在弥撒中是否还有任何遗留的东西？
- start: 3040.963
  end: 3048.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I never got to a Mass, I never wanted to go to a Mass, but I just wondered, is there any residue, any remaining element?
  zh: 我从未参加过弥撒，我从未想去参加弥撒，但我只是想知道，是否有任何残留，任何剩余的元素？
- start: 3048.911
  end: 3056.559
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I found out that there was a Mass on a weekday at noon in a basement chapel that just sounded safe to me.
  zh: 于是我发现，在一个工作日中午有一场弥撒在地下室的小教堂举行，这对我来说听起来很安全。
- start: 3056.699
  end: 3090.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I skipped lunch and went there with my notebook, my Bible,  That's amazing because most people go to Holy Mass and later on down the line they hear about St. Justin Martyr and what he had to say and they're like, oh wow, that's just like,  Mass, whereas you had it in reverse.
  zh: 所以我跳过午餐，带着我的笔记本和圣经去了那里。这很神奇，因为大多数人去参加圣弥撒，后来他们听说圣殉道者游斯丁和他所说的，他们会想，哦，哇，那就像弥撒，而你是反过来的。
- start: 3090.485
  end: 3092.225
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You read it and then went looking for it.
  zh: 你先读了它，然后去寻找它。
- start: 3092.225
  end: 3096.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For those who aren't familiar with it, maybe quickly share with us what Justin said.
  zh: 对于那些不熟悉的人，也许可以快速与我们分享游斯丁所说的。
- start: 3096.566
  end: 3098.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The Catechism has a paragraph.
  zh: 《公教会教理》有一段。
- start: 3098.007
  end: 3111.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I don't remember the exact number, but I think there are nine or ten elements in terms of the opening rite, the penitential rite, the prayers, the reading of the Scriptures, and the preaching as well, and then the Eucharist.
  zh: 我不记得确切的数字，但我想在开幕礼、忏悔礼、祷告、读经和讲道方面有九到十个元素，然后是圣餐。
- start: 3112.31
  end: 3116.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm missing a few of the elements, but I had them.
  zh: 我漏掉了一些元素，但我有它们。
- start: 3116.011
  end: 3132.59
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I had been reading them in a doctoral seminar  And so to have each and every element line up, every single part of the checklist checked off, it was prepping me for the Eureka moment because I'm not kneeling.
  zh: 我在博士研讨会上读过它们，所以每个元素都排列好，清单上的每个部分都勾选完毕，这为我的顿悟时刻做了准备，因为我没有跪下。
- start: 3132.59
  end: 3133.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I wasn't standing.
  zh: 我没有站着。
- start: 3133.41
  end: 3135.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was just sitting, jotting observations.
  zh: 我只是坐着，记下观察。
- start: 3135.251
  end: 3146.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when I heard the words of consecration for the first time in my life, and I mean, as soon as he finished that line, you know, take this and eat of this as my body, I mean, I'm looking straight ahead.
  zh: 当我第一次听到祝圣的话语时，我的意思是，当他一说完那句话，你知道，拿着这个吃，这是我的身体，我的意思是，我直视前方。
- start: 3147.099
  end: 3151.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And feeling like all of my doubt is just draining out of my head, my heart.
  zh: 感觉我所有的疑虑都从我的头脑和心中流走。
- start: 3151.082
  end: 3153.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm like, my Lord and my God, that is you.
  zh: 我就想，我的主，我的神，那是你。
- start: 3153.183
  end: 3156.365
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I felt like Downing Thomas, like that is not bread.
  zh: 我感觉像多疑的托马斯，觉得那不是面包。
- start: 3156.486
  end: 3158.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That is your body.
  zh: 那是你的身体。
- start: 3158.967
  end: 3159.768
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: What's going on here?
  zh: 这里发生了什么？
- start: 3159.768
  end: 3166.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then when he consecrated the chalice, I found myself literally drooling with this holy thirst for the precious blood.
  zh: 然后当他祝圣圣杯时，我发现自己真的在为这珍贵的血而流口水。
- start: 3166.813
  end: 3174.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I'm trying to sift through these thoughts, these emotions, and then everybody began to chant, Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
  zh: 我试图理清这些想法，这些情感，然后每个人都开始吟唱，除去世人罪孽的神的羔羊。
- start: 3175.543
  end: 3182.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: By the time they said it three times, they dropped to their knees, and he elevated the host, and he says, Behold the Lamb of God.
  zh: 当他们说了三遍时，他们跪下，他举起圣体，说，看哪，神的羔羊。
- start: 3182.585
  end: 3202.371
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Suddenly I have this eureka moment, an aha, you know, I'm going to the back of the Bible, looking at the book of Revelation, where I knew from translating all 22 chapters that Lamb of God is the title used for Jesus there more than all of the other titles put together, and no other New Testament writer uses the technical liturgical term for the Lamb of God.
  zh: 突然间我有了这个顿悟时刻，一个啊哈，你知道，我翻到圣经的后面，看启示录，我知道从翻译全部22章中，神的羔羊是那里用来称呼耶稣的头衔，比所有其他头衔加在一起还多，没有其他新约作者使用神的羔羊的技术礼仪术语。
- start: 3202.785
  end: 3230.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I'm seeing it, and I'm seeing holy, holy, holy, the glory, the amen, the alleluia, and I'm seeing in John's description of the heavenly vision, this liturgy that includes the angels and the saints, by the time everybody's back from having received Holy Communion, they're kneeling, silence, giving thanks, I'm looking down, I've flipped through about 15 pages, and I'm seeing for the first time, in the apocalypse,  What I just saw for the first time in the Mass, and I'm like, where have I been?
  zh: 所以我看到了，我看到了圣哉，圣哉，圣哉，荣耀，阿门，哈利路亚，我在约翰对天上异象的描述中看到了这个包括天使和圣徒的礼仪，当每个人从领受圣餐回来时，他们跪下，沉默，感谢，我低头，我翻了大约15页，我第一次在启示录中看到了我第一次在弥撒中看到的东西，我就想，我在哪里？
- start: 3230.86
  end: 3237.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, this is just a basement chapel, a weekday Mass, but it's the heavenly worship of the angels and the saints.
  zh: 你知道，这只是一个地下室的小教堂，一个工作日的弥撒，但这是天使和圣徒的天上敬拜。
- start: 3237.543
  end: 3240.345
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so everybody leaves after the benediction.
  zh: 所以每个人在祝福后离开。
- start: 3240.345
  end: 3242.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: An hour later, I haven't budged.
  zh: 一个小时后，我还没有动。
- start: 3242.926
  end: 3249.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm sitting there somewhat stunned, trying to figure out, okay, I went downstairs to a basement chapel for a Monday Mass.
  zh: 我坐在那里有些震惊，试图弄清楚，好吧，我下楼去地下室的小教堂参加周一的弥撒。
- start: 3249.829
  end: 3252.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I went through the wardrobe to Narnia.
  zh: 我穿过衣柜到了纳尼亚。
- start: 3252.05
  end: 3254.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, I mean, I, lift up your hearts, we lift them up to the Lord.
  zh: 是的，我的意思是，我，举起你们的心，我们把它们举向主。
- start: 3254.971
  end: 3256.502
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was lifted up to heaven.
  zh: 我被提升到天堂。
- start: 3256.502
  end: 3260.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The songs, the prayers, the sacrifice, and the lamb, it was a perfect match.
  zh: 歌曲、祷告、祭献和羔羊，这是完美的结合。
- start: 3260.905
  end: 3263.326
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I spent the rest of the afternoon in the library.
  zh: 我在图书馆度过了余下的下午。
- start: 3263.326
  end: 3265.247
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I checked out about a dozen books.
  zh: 我借了大约十几本书。
- start: 3265.467
  end: 3267.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was going to tell Kimberly, but I thought better of it.
  zh: 我本打算告诉金伯利，但我想还是算了。
- start: 3267.949
  end: 3274.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I read the Book of Revelation that night, with the Greek there and the English translation.
  zh: 于是那天晚上我读了《启示录》，有希腊文和英文翻译。
- start: 3274.773
  end: 3277.994
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And by around 3 a.m., I closed the books.
  zh: 到凌晨三点左右，我合上了书。
- start: 3278.094
  end: 3279.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I thought, you know, Kimberly's a night owl.
  zh: 我想，你知道，金伯利是个夜猫子。
- start: 3279.515
  end: 3283.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If she's still awake, she deserves an explanation.
  zh: 如果她还醒着，她应该得到一个解释。
- start: 3283.117
  end: 3284.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She was fast asleep.
  zh: 她已经熟睡。
- start: 3284.73
  end: 3309.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I didn't tell her, and I went back the next day, and for the next two weeks, I was attending daily Mass, and Matt, I've got to tell you, it felt like 10th grade when I found myself reading Scripture, falling in love with our Lord, the pages of the Gospels, and especially Paul, only now it's the Eucharist, and so I get there early, I stay afterwards, I am kneeling before the tabernacle, and I realize, I've got to tell her.
  zh: 所以我没有告诉她，第二天我又去了，在接下来的两周里，我每天都参加弥撒，马特，我得告诉你，这感觉就像十年级时，我发现自己在读圣经，爱上了我们的主，福音书的页面，尤其是保罗，只是现在是圣餐，所以我早早到达，之后留下，我跪在圣体柜前，我意识到，我必须告诉她。
- start: 3309.174
  end: 3319.025
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So when I finally came clean and I told her, the first thing she reminded me of was,  You still have four and a half years.
  zh: 所以当我终于坦白并告诉她时，她提醒我的第一件事是，你还有四年半。
- start: 3319.246
  end: 3330.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Eventually, after getting spiritual direction from a priest and meeting with Monsignor Bruskowitz, the pastor who eventually received me into the church, I told her one night, I need you to pray.
  zh: 最终，在从一位神父那里得到属灵指导并与最终接纳我进入教会的布鲁斯科维茨蒙席会面后，我有一天晚上告诉她，我需要你祷告。
- start: 3330.655
  end: 3337.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I need to pray about this because delaying obedience to what I know is true is feeling more like disobedience every day.
  zh: 我需要为此祷告，因为拖延对我所知为真的事情的顺服，每天都感觉更像是不顺服。
- start: 3337.66
  end: 3339.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I had written that into my prayer journal.
  zh: 我把这写进了我的祷告日记。
- start: 3339.611
  end: 3345.333
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I had practiced the line before dinner, and when it came out, she looked at me, and she said, that's clever.
  zh: 我在晚餐前练习了这句话，当它说出来时，她看着我，说，那很聪明。
- start: 3345.333
  end: 3347.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I thought so, too.
  zh: 我也这么认为。
- start: 3347.453
  end: 3349.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But, I mean, she knew I was sincere.
  zh: 但，我的意思是，她知道我是诚实的。
- start: 3349.174
  end: 3352.875
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was just being rhetorically sly, or so I thought.
  zh: 我只是修辞上狡猾，或者我以为是这样。
- start: 3352.875
  end: 3358.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So she came to me later that night, and she admitted that she had prayed, and she knew what she had to do, and that was to let me.
  zh: 所以那天晚上她后来来找我，她承认她祷告过，她知道她必须做什么，那就是让我去做。
- start: 3358.557
  end: 3360.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And she said, how long will it be?
  zh: 她说，会有多长时间？
- start: 3360.217
  end: 3363.518
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, it was less than five weeks, so much for five years.
  zh: 好吧，不到五周，五年就这样过去了。
- start: 3363.518
  end: 3371.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so she told me, I want to come when you're received for that  Easter, Vigil, Mass, whatever it is.
  zh: 于是她告诉我，我想在你接受那个复活节、守夜、弥撒或其他什么的时候来。
- start: 3371.767
  end: 3380.274
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so for the next few weeks, I tried to show her that you'll hear more of the Bible in the Mass than you've ever heard in our Bible services.
  zh: 所以在接下来的几周里，我试图向她展示，你会在弥撒中听到比我们圣经服务中更多的圣经。
- start: 3380.274
  end: 3383.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You'll also experience the power of the real presence.
  zh: 你还会体验到真实临在的力量。
- start: 3383.516
  end: 3385.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And finally, it got just too tense.
  zh: 最后，事情变得太紧张了。
- start: 3385.198
  end: 3388.44
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was trying to debate her into submission.
  zh: 我试图通过辩论让她屈服。
- start: 3388.46
  end: 3391.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And slowly you discover you're not the third person of the Holy Trinity.
  zh: 慢慢地你发现你不是圣三位中的第三位。
- start: 3392.043
  end: 3395.986
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So we went on a date the week before that fateful night.
  zh: 所以在那个命运之夜的前一周我们约会了。
- start: 3396.075
  end: 3399.076
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then we were sitting in total darkness and she asked me to explain it.
  zh: 然后我们坐在完全黑暗中，她让我解释。
- start: 3399.076
  end: 3402.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I couldn't because no Mass had been like the Easter Vigil before.
  zh: 我无法解释，因为没有弥撒像复活节守夜那样。
- start: 3402.436
  end: 3404.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Then we had candles, then they were lit.
  zh: 然后我们有蜡烛，然后它们被点燃。
- start: 3404.537
  end: 3405.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She said, can you explain?
  zh: 她说，你能解释一下吗？
- start: 3405.517
  end: 3407.197
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I said, you'll see, you'll see.
  zh: 我说，你会看到的，你会看到的。
- start: 3407.518
  end: 3411.078
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I didn't know what I was going, I just wanted to come off like the expert.
  zh: 我不知道我在做什么，我只是想表现得像个专家。
- start: 3411.438
  end: 3417.02
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And what happens, you know, with the exaltet and then the Easter Vigil liturgy, it's so beautiful.
  zh: 然后发生的事情，你知道，随着复活赞歌和复活节守夜礼仪，它是如此美丽。
- start: 3417.04
  end: 3420.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She was stunned and amazed as I was, you know.
  zh: 她和我一样震惊和惊讶，你知道。
- start: 3420.721
  end: 3427.588
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then when the Old Testament readings are finished,  We had gone through seven Old Testament readings with a psalm in between every one.
  zh: 然后当旧约读经结束时，我们经历了七次旧约读经，每次之间都有一篇诗篇。
- start: 3427.669
  end: 3428.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You weren't kidding.
  zh: 你不是在开玩笑。
- start: 3428.709
  end: 3430.591
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm like, yeah, I told you.
  zh: 我就说，是的，我告诉过你。
- start: 3430.611
  end: 3431.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I had no idea.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 3431.432
  end: 3437.577
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then when we stood for the gospel and we read about the resurrection, she was squeezing my hand so tight.
  zh: 然后当我们为福音站立并读到复活时，她紧紧握着我的手。
- start: 3437.577
  end: 3439.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I wasn't sure if she was upset.
  zh: 我不确定她是否生气。
- start: 3439.839
  end: 3440.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Is everything all right?
  zh: 一切都好吗？
- start: 3440.499
  end: 3442.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She said, this is glorious.
  zh: 她说，这太荣耀了。
- start: 3442.381
  end: 3444.022
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I told you.
  zh: 我告诉过你。
- start: 3444.202
  end: 3455.222
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then after the creed, after the homily of the creed, but the homily, Monsignor just brought all of these texts together, tied them to the Eucharist,  And even she was really impressed by the homily.
  zh: 然后在信经之后，在信经的讲道之后，蒙席只是把所有这些文本结合在一起，把它们与圣餐联系起来，甚至她对讲道也印象深刻。
- start: 3455.222
  end: 3458.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Was he leading you through RCIA? Because you said five weeks, that's a short time.
  zh: 他是通过慕道班带领你吗？因为你说五周，那是很短的时间。
- start: 3458.904
  end: 3468.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, I mean, he said to me, I said, do I have to go through a whole year of RCIA? He laughed and he said, you could teach the RCIA at this point after our conversations.
  zh: 是的，我的意思是，他对我说，我说，我必须经历一整年的慕道班吗？他笑了，说，在我们的谈话之后，你现在可以教慕道班了。
- start: 3468.729
  end: 3471.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so he said, I could receive you, I'll give you instruction.
  zh: 所以他说，我可以接纳你，我会给你指导。
- start: 3471.811
  end: 3476.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So he had me reading a lot of Newman, Cyril of Jerusalem, I can't remember all of the others.
  zh: 所以他让我读了很多纽曼、耶路撒冷的西里尔，我记不清所有的其他人。
- start: 3476.873
  end: 3480.075
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But it was mostly stuff that I had read before, and he knew that.
  zh: 但主要是我以前读过的东西，他知道这一点。
- start: 3480.342
  end: 3483.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He also knew that I was pretty well prepared for it.
  zh: 他也知道我对此准备得相当充分。
- start: 3483.584
  end: 3488.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so that night, it was like the heavenly Jerusalem opening up and welcoming me home.
  zh: 所以那天晚上，就像天上的耶路撒冷打开并欢迎我回家。
- start: 3489.066
  end: 3493.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then when I got home, it was tension, stress, and all the rest.
  zh: 然后当我回到家时，紧张、压力和其他一切。
- start: 3493.028
  end: 3499.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so the next four years are some of the most painful, anguished reading in the Rome Sweet Home book.
  zh: 所以接下来的四年是《罗马甜蜜的家》书中一些最痛苦、最痛苦的阅读。
- start: 3499.151
  end: 3506.514
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because it really took me a long time to live out, okay, I'm not the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 因为我真的花了很长时间去活出，好吧，我不是圣灵。
- start: 3506.514
  end: 3508.295
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I can't set her straight.
  zh: 我不能纠正她。
- start: 3508.776
  end: 3517.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I can love her better with the help of the sacraments than I can without them, but I'm going to have to let her hear her Father in heaven.
  zh: 在圣事的帮助下，我可以更好地爱她，而不是没有它们，但我必须让她听到她在天上的父亲。
- start: 3517.345
  end: 3518.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that's what happened.
  zh: 这就是发生的事情。
- start: 3518.286
  end: 3523.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: About four years later on Ash Wednesday, she shocked me in a phone call when I was out in California.
  zh: 大约四年后，在圣灰星期三，当我在加州时，她在电话中让我震惊。
- start: 3523.731
  end: 3529.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She was here in Steubenville looking for housing, and the rest, as we say, is history.
  zh: 她在斯图本维尔找房子，接下来的事情，如我们所说，就是历史了。
- start: 3529.394
  end: 3530.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: www.catholicchemistry.com
  zh: www.catholicchemistry.com
- start: 3530.615
  end: 3531.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: www.catholicchemistry.com
  zh: www.catholicchemistry.com
- start: 3531.395
  end: 3532.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: www.catholicchemistry.com
  zh: www.catholicchemistry.com
- start: 3532.115
  end: 3532.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: www.catholicchemistry.com
  zh: www.catholicchemistry.com
- start: 3532.876
  end: 3534.076
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: www.catholicchemistry.com
  zh: www.catholicchemistry.com
- start: 3534.076
  end: 3535.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: www.catholicchemistry.com
  zh: www.catholicchemistry.com
- start: 3559.52
  end: 3566.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Somebody who is single, who is hoping that the Lord is calling you to the sacrament of marriage, please go check out catholicchemistry.com.
  zh: 如果你是单身，希望主召唤你进入婚姻圣事，请查看catholicchemistry.com。
- start: 3566.245
  end: 3568.687
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It was founded by a good friend of mine, Chuck Gallucci.
  zh: 它是由我的一个好朋友查克·加卢奇创立的。
- start: 3568.687
  end: 3572.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The two of us used to work at Catholic Answers, so he's a solid Orthodox Catholic.
  zh: 我们俩曾在天主教答疑工作，所以他是一个坚定的正统天主教徒。
- start: 3572.73
  end: 3580.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He found himself just unimpressed with many of the dating sites out there, and so they've started this, and it's absolutely fantastic.
  zh: 他发现自己对许多现有的约会网站印象不深，所以他们开始了这个网站，绝对是很棒的。
- start: 3580.156
  end: 3583.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Here's one email they've received from somebody.
  zh: 这是他们收到的某人的一封电子邮件。
- start: 3583.459
  end: 3586.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They said,  Decided to message Grace.
  zh: 他们说，决定给格蕾丝发信息。
- start: 3586.004
  end: 3591.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She lives only an hour away, took a chance and asked if she wanted to meet up a couple of days later and we've been dating ever since.
  zh: 她住在一个小时的路程外，冒险问她是否想几天后见面，从那时起我们就一直在约会。
- start: 3591.566
  end: 3592.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there you go.
  zh: 所以你看。
- start: 3592.466
  end: 3595.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace is out there just waiting for you.
  zh: 格蕾丝就在外面等着你。
- start: 3595.226
  end: 3604.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So click the link in the description below so that they know that we sent you and start your account over at catholicchemistry.com.
  zh: 所以点击下面描述中的链接，让他们知道是我们推荐的，并在catholicchemistry.com上开始你的账户。
- start: 3604.788
  end: 3605.288
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All right.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3605.288
  end: 3606.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I've never heard of that before.
  zh: 我以前从未听说过。
- start: 3606.369
  end: 3607.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, yeah.
  zh: 是的，是的。
- start: 3607.369
  end: 3608.189
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's actually really good.
  zh: 这实际上真的很好。
- start: 3608.189
  end: 3609.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm glad I didn't need it.
  zh: 我很高兴我不需要它。
- start: 3610.149
  end: 3615.442
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, I think back in the day Catholic dating sites seemed a little  Music will be omitted.
  zh: 是的，我想在过去，天主教约会网站似乎有点 音乐将被省略。
- start: 3644.286
  end: 3655.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would say get back to the basics, and that is remind yourself and our Lord that you, Jesus Christ, are my Savior, but you're also the Lord of Lords.
  zh: 我会说回到基础，那就是提醒你自己和我们的主，你，耶稣基督，是我的救主，但你也是万主之主。
- start: 3655.109
  end: 3662.031
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I want you to exercise your Lordship in my life more, not less, more than ever before.
  zh: 所以我希望你在我的生活中更多地行使你的主权，而不是更少，比以往任何时候都更多。
- start: 3662.051
  end: 3667.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Second, the Word of God inspired in Sacred Scripture is just that.
  zh: 其次，神在圣经中默示的道就是这样。
- start: 3667.132
  end: 3667.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's the Word of God.
  zh: 这是神的道。
- start: 3667.933
  end: 3669.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's powerful.
  zh: 它是有力量的。
- start: 3669.353
  end: 3681.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so just because Sola Scriptura might be wrong,  It doesn't mean that the primacy of Scripture in your life isn't really a useful instrument to follow our Lord and to live out His Lordship.
  zh: 所以即使唯独圣经可能是错误的，这并不意味着圣经在你生命中的首要地位不是一个跟随我们的主并活出他的主权的有用工具。
- start: 3681.642
  end: 3684.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so keep reading Scripture prayerfully, carefully.
  zh: 所以要虔诚地、仔细地继续阅读圣经。
- start: 3685.144
  end: 3689.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the third thing, obviously, would be to read the Church Fathers.
  zh: 第三件事，显然，就是阅读教父。
- start: 3689.707
  end: 3691.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Read the Church Fathers.
  zh: 阅读教父。
- start: 3691.048
  end: 3695.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Juergen's three-volume work, The Faith of the Early Fathers, is such a great source.
  zh: 尤尔根的三卷作品《早期教父的信仰》是一个很好的来源。
- start: 3697.096
  end: 3704.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would also say that if you think you might be mostly convinced, make this more than an intellectual head trip.
  zh: 我还要说，如果你认为你可能大部分被说服了，那就让这不仅仅是一次智力上的旅行。
- start: 3704.36
  end: 3709.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Supernaturalize this by going to the saints, or especially the Blessed Virgin Mary.
  zh: 通过求助于圣徒，尤其是圣母马利亚，使这变得超自然。
- start: 3709.203
  end: 3719.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, I got to the point where I felt like 99 out of 100 Catholic teachings were true, but that last 100th element was Marian doctrine, Marian devotion.
  zh: 你知道，我到了一个地步，觉得天主教的100条教义中有99条是真的，但最后那第100条是马利亚教义，马利亚崇拜。
- start: 3719.968
  end: 3721.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It just seemed so foreign to me.
  zh: 这对我来说似乎是如此陌生。
- start: 3721.849
  end: 3731.172
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I remember just kind of feeling uncomfortable with my own  I'm going to pray this, and I'm going to entrust to her some intention that has felt like it's impossible.
  zh: 所以我记得对自己的感觉有点不舒服，我要祈祷这个，我要把一些感觉不可能的意图托付给她。
- start: 3731.172
  end: 3732.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I did finish the rosary.
  zh: 我确实完成了玫瑰经。
- start: 3755.603
  end: 3773.356
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That is what really flipped the switch because it didn't occur to me suddenly, but months later I realized that not only had she heard my prayer and answered it after I had almost given up, but she had also manifested other kinds of things that you would associate with a mother who loves you more than you realize.
  zh: 这才是真正的转折点，因为这不是突然发生的，但几个月后我意识到，她不仅听到了我的祷告并在我几乎放弃后回答了它，而且她还表现出其他一些你会与一个比你意识到的更爱你的母亲联系在一起的事情。
- start: 3774.598
  end: 3787.577
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was saying this a few minutes ago at the top of our conversation that these two guys who drove all the way down from Orlando to Palm Beach  Pray the Rosary together as brothers, as Protestants, slowly.
  zh: 我几分钟前在我们谈话的开头说过，这两个从奥兰多一路开车到棕榈滩的人，作为兄弟，作为新教徒，一起慢慢地祈祷玫瑰经。
- start: 3787.858
  end: 3798.347
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when I asked them if they'd ever prayed and they mentioned that they just finished, they looked at each other and you could almost sense that their fraternity had become supernatural.
  zh: 当我问他们是否曾经祈祷过，他们提到他们刚刚完成时，他们互相看着，你几乎可以感觉到他们的兄弟情谊变得超自然。
- start: 3798.347
  end: 3802.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, not just in Christ, but also in the Blessed Virgin.
  zh: 你知道，不仅在基督里，也在圣母里。
- start: 3802.411
  end: 3809.256
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I would say, you know, that the Rosary has become my favorite prayer for 36 or 37 years.
  zh: 所以我会说，你知道，玫瑰经已经成为我36或37年来最喜欢的祷告。
- start: 3809.497
  end: 3811.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's made the Gospels come alive.
  zh: 它使福音书变得生动。
- start: 3811.348
  end: 3814.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: All right, here's another question from Eric Holmberg, who's one of our patrons.
  zh: 好的，这里有一个来自我们的支持者之一埃里克·霍尔姆伯格的问题。
- start: 3814.01
  end: 3814.65
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Thank you, Eric.
  zh: 谢谢你，埃里克。
- start: 3814.65
  end: 3848.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He asks this,  What would you say to a Protestant who is hungry for tradition, liturgy, and the Eucharist, but is considering Orthodoxy?
  zh: 他问这个问题，你会对一个渴望传统、礼仪和圣餐但正在考虑东正教的新教徒说些什么？
- start: 3848.232
  end: 3855.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To put it another way, what is the single best refutation of the Orthodox claim to be the true church Jesus founded?
  zh: 换句话说，反驳东正教声称是耶稣创立的真正教会的最佳理由是什么？
- start: 3855.557
  end: 3860.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, I hadn't encountered the writings of James Likudas yet, but I would recommend him.
  zh: 嗯，我还没有遇到詹姆斯·利库达斯的著作，但我会推荐他。
- start: 3860.86
  end: 3867.724
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: James Likudas was Orthodox, he became Catholic, and then he became the president of Catholic Center for the Faith, and a dear friend of 30 years.
  zh: 詹姆斯·利库达斯曾是东正教徒，他成为天主教徒，然后成为天主教信仰中心的主席，也是三十年的亲密朋友。
- start: 3867.724
  end: 3869.885
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We plan to reprint his books.
  zh: 我们计划重印他的书。
- start: 3869.892
  end: 3872.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They're available at bookfinder.com
  zh: 它们可以在bookfinder.com上找到
- start: 3872.133
  end: 3874.635
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: and maybe Amazon, but bookfinder.com
  zh: 也许在亚马逊上，但bookfinder.com
- start: 3874.635
  end: 3877.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: gives you the widest and the cheapest choices.
  zh: 为你提供最广泛和最便宜的选择。
- start: 3877.757
  end: 3878.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would also say this.
  zh: 我还要说这个。
- start: 3878.938
  end: 3880.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I wanted to go Orthodox.
  zh: 我想加入东正教。
- start: 3880.679
  end: 3882.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was drawn to the religion.
  zh: 我被这个宗教吸引。
- start: 3882.3
  end: 3882.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Tell us why.
  zh: 告诉我们为什么。
- start: 3882.92
  end: 3886.182
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, you don't have the Pope, the stumbling block of the Pope, at least.
  zh: 我的意思是，至少你没有教宗这个绊脚石。
- start: 3886.182
  end: 3896.288
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, I mean, I was ordained a pastor, and I could be ordained as a married man, a priest in the Orthodox Church, and so I wouldn't have to commit professional suicide like I would if I became a Catholic.
  zh: 是的，我的意思是，我被按立为牧师，我可以作为一个已婚男子被按立为东正教的神父，所以我不必像成为天主教徒那样自毁职业生涯。
- start: 3896.576
  end: 3910.065
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so what I did was I traveled around and I visited some Orthodox Christians and I also visited a few Orthodox churches and I realized very early that Orthodoxy is ethnic.
  zh: 所以我所做的是四处旅行，我拜访了一些东正教徒，我还参观了一些东正教教堂，我很早就意识到东正教是民族性的。
- start: 3910.065
  end: 3914.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There's Greek, there's Ukrainian, there's Estonian, there's Serbian, there's Russian.
  zh: 有希腊的，有乌克兰的，有爱沙尼亚的，有塞尔维亚的，有俄罗斯的。
- start: 3915.068
  end: 3933.639
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I always sort of, no I didn't always, I had recently become suspicious of denominations and just the proliferation of denominations  And then when I realized there were more than a dozen autocephalous Orthodox bodies that are all defined by their ethnicity.
  zh: 我总是有点，不，我并不总是，我最近开始对教派感到怀疑，以及教派的泛滥，然后当我意识到有十几个自治的东正教团体都是由他们的民族性定义的。
- start: 3933.64
  end: 3937.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I coined a term back then called Denominationalism.
  zh: 我当时创造了一个术语，叫做教派主义。
- start: 3937.303
  end: 3945.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That if there's one thing the New Covenant isn't, that the Old Covenant was, was ethnic and nationalistic, it was Israel first.
  zh: 如果有一件事新约不是，而旧约是，那就是民族性和民族主义，首先是以色列。
- start: 3945.73
  end: 3952.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it just struck me that when I went to a Greek Orthodox church, it was more Greek than I could be.
  zh: 我突然意识到，当我去一个希腊东正教教堂时，它比我能成为的更希腊。
- start: 3952.839
  end: 3954.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I felt like an outsider.
  zh: 我感觉像个外人。
- start: 3954.541
  end: 3957.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so the other thing, too, is the filioque.
  zh: 还有另一件事，就是filioque。
- start: 3958.025
  end: 3963.311
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And we can't get into this, but it's one of my favorite discoveries.
  zh: 我们不能深入探讨这个，但这是我最喜欢的发现之一。
- start: 3963.992
  end: 3969.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Just for people at home, the filioque was something inserted by the church after the Council of Nicaea.
  zh: 对于在家的人来说，filioque是教会在尼西亚会议后插入的东西。
- start: 3969.439
  end: 3969.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 3969.819
  end: 3971.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Orthodox are right on that.
  zh: 东正教在这方面是对的。
- start: 3971.381
  end: 3977.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But your point is that  The Orthodox are wrong to deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
  zh: 但你的观点是，东正教否认圣灵从圣父和圣子而出是错误的。
- start: 3977.951
  end: 3978.411
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 3978.411
  end: 3995.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, in the 7th century and beyond, you have a semi-Arian heresy spreading in the West, mostly in Spain, that the Church in the West has to respond to, and so the Bishop of Rome does by inserting the filioque so that the full divinity of the Holy Spirit is affirmed more explicitly.
  zh: 我的意思是，在7世纪及以后，西方，主要是在西班牙，出现了一个半亚略主义的异端，西方教会必须对此作出回应，因此罗马主教通过插入filioque来更明确地肯定圣灵的完全神性。
- start: 3995.561
  end: 4009.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But there's also more to it than that because there was already tension between East and West and so the East didn't accept that decision and began to controvert it over the course of the next few centuries until finally in 1054 they have the mutual excommunications.
  zh: 但这不仅仅是因为东西方之间已经存在紧张关系，所以东方不接受这个决定，并在接下来的几个世纪中开始争论，直到1054年他们最终互相绝罚。
- start: 4010.028
  end: 4018.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so more calmly and dispassionately I went and looked at the filioque, kind of wanting to find that the Orthodox were right.
  zh: 所以我更冷静和客观地去看filioque，有点想发现东正教是对的。
- start: 4018.631
  end: 4031.555
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But, you know, by common consent the only way we know the so-called eternal processions  of the Son from the Father, and the Holy Spirit from the Father, and through the Son, or from the Father and the Son.
  zh: 但是，你知道，根据共同的同意，我们知道圣子从圣父而出，圣灵从圣父而出，并通过圣子，或从圣父和圣子而出的所谓永恒进程的唯一方法。
- start: 4031.555
  end: 4035.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The only way we know the eternal processions are through the temporal missions.
  zh: 我们知道永恒进程的唯一方法是通过时间上的使命。
- start: 4035.216
  end: 4047.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And nobody disputes that in the temporal missions the Father sends the Son to become man, and according to the Farewell Discourse in John 15 and 16, the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 没有人质疑在时间上的使命中，圣父差遣圣子成为人，并根据约翰福音15和16章的告别辞，圣父和圣子差遣圣灵。
- start: 4047.279
  end: 4063.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, if the missions reveal these eternal processions, and there's no way to know the processions apart from the missions,  Then, you know, if everybody is affirming that the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit, then how can the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and not from the Son?
  zh: 所以，如果使命揭示了这些永恒的进程，并且除了使命之外没有办法知道这些进程，那么，你知道，如果每个人都肯定圣父和圣子差遣圣灵，那么圣灵怎么能只从圣父而不从圣子而出呢？
- start: 4064.087
  end: 4065.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And, you know, there are other things too.
  zh: 而且，你知道，还有其他事情。
- start: 4065.348
  end: 4068.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's one of my favorite topics, but it's so esoteric that nobody really gets it.
  zh: 这是我最喜欢的话题之一，但它如此深奥，以至于没有人真正理解。
- start: 4068.449
  end: 4073.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Do you think that Eastern Catholics, that it would be good if they began adding the filioque?
  zh: 你认为东方天主教徒，如果他们开始添加filioque会好吗？
- start: 4073.87
  end: 4083.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because sometimes I'll encounter Eastern Catholics who almost essentially want to be Orthodox and begin to adopt beliefs that the Orthodox Church holds  We need another hour.
  zh: 因为有时我会遇到几乎本质上想成为东正教徒的东方天主教徒，并开始采纳东正教会持有的信仰 我们需要再一个小时。
- start: 4103.456
  end: 4104.557
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: On this.
  zh: 关于这个。
- start: 4104.557
  end: 4106.618
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would love it too.
  zh: 我也会很喜欢。
- start: 4106.718
  end: 4110.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I feel like once I start down this road, it's like a San Francisco street.
  zh: 我觉得一旦我开始走这条路，就像旧金山的街道。
- start: 4110.061
  end: 4111.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I won't be able to stop.
  zh: 我将无法停止。
- start: 4112.923
  end: 4114.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Long boarding down a San Francisco.
  zh: 在旧金山长板滑行。
- start: 4114.344
  end: 4116.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, let's do that another time.
  zh: 好吧，我们下次再做。
- start: 4116.445
  end: 4120.328
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Here's a question from our patron, David Barr.
  zh: 这是我们的一位支持者大卫·巴尔的问题。
- start: 4120.468
  end: 4121.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Actually, it's a comment.
  zh: 实际上，这是一个评论。
- start: 4121.249
  end: 4127.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says, Two years ago I started reading the Apostolic Fathers to prove my brother wrong, who was considering Catholicism at the time.
  zh: 他说，两年前我开始阅读使徒教父，以证明我当时正在考虑天主教的兄弟是错的。
- start: 4127.603
  end: 4131.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: As of this Easter, two of my brothers, my wife and myself, are all coming into the church.
  zh: 截至今年复活节，我的两个兄弟、我的妻子和我自己都进入了教会。
- start: 4131.346
  end: 4135.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Scott Hahn's testimony and scholarly work contributed significantly to my journey.
  zh: 斯科特·汉恩的见证和学术工作对我的旅程有很大贡献。
- start: 4135.769
  end: 4136.689
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God bless.
  zh: 愿神祝福。
- start: 4137.27
  end: 4137.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You must love.
  zh: 你一定很喜欢。
- start: 4137.911
  end: 4141.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They must never get old hearing things like that.
  zh: 听到这样的事情，他们一定不会厌倦。
- start: 4141.493
  end: 4142.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Glory to God.
  zh: 荣耀归于神。
- start: 4142.634
  end: 4150.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I once met a priest who said, Lord, use my, and he used a different word, dung, as manure for their growth.
  zh: 我曾遇到一位神父，他说，主啊，用我的，他用了一个不同的词，粪便，作为他们成长的肥料。
- start: 4150.32
  end: 4150.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Use it all.
  zh: 用上所有。
- start: 4150.94
  end: 4152.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Use the things I say that are good.
  zh: 使用我所说的好的东西。
- start: 4153.048
  end: 4164.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Chris says, thank you for your super chat, he says, Dr. Hahn, are you able to put into words how you read Scripture differently as a Catholic, which may help other Protestants in how to read the Bible?
  zh: 克里斯说，感谢你的超级聊天，他说，汉恩博士，你能用语言表达你作为天主教徒如何不同地阅读圣经，这可能会帮助其他新教徒如何阅读圣经吗？
- start: 4164.558
  end: 4168.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, this again is a tip of an iceberg type of question and answer.
  zh: 你知道，这又是一个冰山一角类型的问题和答案。
- start: 4168.681
  end: 4170.362
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, I mean, yes.
  zh: 所以，我的意思是，是的。
- start: 4170.382
  end: 4174.265
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: What I would pinpoint is this, a liturgical hermeneutic.
  zh: 我想指出的是这个，一个礼仪诠释学。
- start: 4174.318
  end: 4180.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: that Scripture was written to be read in the liturgy for the purpose of illuminating the mystery that is about to happen.
  zh: 圣经是为了在礼仪中被阅读而写的，目的是揭示即将发生的奥秘。
- start: 4180.82
  end: 4186.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then the Eucharistic mystery is exactly what fulfills the Word of God in Scripture.
  zh: 然后圣餐的奥秘正是成全圣经中神的道的东西。
- start: 4186.161
  end: 4202.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the fact that Jesus only uses the phrase the New Testament one time in Luke 22-20, and the earliest reference to the New Testament in the New Testament is in 1 Corinthians 11-25, in both instances it's referring to the institution narrative.
  zh: 而且耶稣只在路加福音22章20节中使用了一次“新约”这个词，而新约中最早提到新约的是在哥林多前书11章25节，在这两种情况下都指的是设立叙述。
- start: 4202.864
  end: 4209.247
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Paul says, on the night he was betrayed, he takes the chalice and he says, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the New Testament.
  zh: 保罗说，在他被出卖的那一夜，他拿起杯来说，这是我的血，新约的血。
- start: 4209.267
  end: 4212.629
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus doesn't go on to say, write this in remembrance of me.
  zh: 耶稣没有继续说，写下这个以纪念我。
- start: 4212.629
  end: 4213.99
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He says, do this.
  zh: 他说，行这个。
- start: 4214.07
  end: 4223.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And most of the 12 never ended up contributing a single book to the collection of 27 that we call the New Testament, but not because they were lazy or disobedient, but because he said, do this.
  zh: 而十二使徒中的大多数最终没有为我们称为新约的27本书贡献一本书，但不是因为他们懒惰或不顺服，而是因为他说，行这个。
- start: 4223.055
  end: 4224.235
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And they did this.
  zh: 他们这样做了。
- start: 4224.235
  end: 4225.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus never wrote anything.
  zh: 耶稣从未写过任何东西。
- start: 4225.776
  end: 4227.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He never commanded them to write anything.
  zh: 他从未命令他们写任何东西。
- start: 4227.537
  end: 4228.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm glad that some of them did.
  zh: 我很高兴他们中的一些人这样做了。
- start: 4228.798
  end: 4234.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Most of them didn't.  But what they all did was this, Eucharist, that he calls the New Testament.
  zh: 大多数人没有。但他们都做了这件事，就是圣餐，他称之为新约。
- start: 4234.776
  end: 4243.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so for me, one of the biggest breakthroughs was that the New Testament was the sacrament before it became a document according to the document.
  zh: 所以对我来说，最大的突破之一是新约在根据文件成为文件之前是圣事。
- start: 4243.782
  end: 4246.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it doesn't devalue the New Testament as a document.
  zh: 这并没有贬低新约作为文件的价值。
- start: 4246.624
  end: 4253.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, it invests it with a sacramentality to draw from Pope Benedict's language in Verbum Domini.
  zh: 事实上，它赋予它一种圣事性，引用本笃教宗在《主的道》中的语言。
- start: 4253.018
  end: 4256.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: that scripture itself is sacramental.
  zh: 圣经本身就是圣事性的。
- start: 4256.179
  end: 4270.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, and so when you see that the canonization of the New Testament occurs roughly around 380 with Pope Damasus, but that same year, that same pope in the same city of Rome also canonized what we call the Roman canon.
  zh: 你知道，当你看到新约的正典化大约发生在380年达玛苏教宗时期，但同一年，同一位教宗在同一个罗马城市也正典化了我们称之为罗马正典的东西。
- start: 4270.362
  end: 4271.442
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, what a coincidence.
  zh: 嗯，多么巧合。
- start: 4271.442
  end: 4275.884
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, no, the New Testament was canonized as a liturgical enactment.
  zh: 不，新约是作为礼仪实施而被正典化的。
- start: 4275.884
  end: 4283.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the Roman canon was canonized because this is the first half of the mass of the catechumens, this is the  The Liturgy of the Eucharist.
  zh: 罗马正典被正典化是因为这是慕道者弥撒的前半部分，这是圣餐礼仪。
- start: 4283.935
  end: 4286.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so one hand washes the other.
  zh: 所以一手洗另一手。
- start: 4286.117
  end: 4293.382
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You get so much more out of the Bible, not only connecting the old and the new, but connecting sacred scripture with the sacred liturgy.
  zh: 你从圣经中得到的更多，不仅是连接旧约和新约，还连接圣经与神圣的礼仪。
- start: 4293.562
  end: 4298.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And from there, it isn't like, well, you end up having to kind of forget about a biblical worldview.
  zh: 从那里开始，这不像是，你最终不得不忘记圣经的世界观。
- start: 4298.906
  end: 4306.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now suddenly you have a sacramental cosmology, a sacramental liturgical anthropology that we were made for worship.
  zh: 现在突然间你有了一个圣事的宇宙观，一个圣事的礼仪人类学，我们是为敬拜而造的。
- start: 4307.253
  end: 4310.015
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I mean, I have Letter and Spirit, the book.
  zh: 我的意思是，我有《字母与精神》这本书。
- start: 4310.015
  end: 4311.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I also have Consuming the Word.
  zh: 我还有《消耗之道》。
- start: 4311.852
  end: 4317.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So many of my books show what difference it makes to read the Bible liturgically.
  zh: 我的许多书展示了以礼仪方式阅读圣经有什么不同。
- start: 4317.293
  end: 4320.674
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, here's a question from my sister, Emma Fradd.
  zh: 好吧，这是我妹妹艾玛·弗拉德的问题。
- start: 4320.674
  end: 4329.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We were speaking last night and she said she was reading the New Testament Ignatius Study Bible, which you helped put together and write.
  zh: 我们昨晚在谈话，她说她正在读你帮助编写的《新约依纳爵研读圣经》。
- start: 4329.555
  end: 4336.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Emma says this, Thank you for your time and effort you put into the Ignatius New Testament Study Bible.
  zh: 艾玛说，感谢你为《依纳爵新约研读圣经》投入的时间和努力。
- start: 4336.876
  end: 4339.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm up to Revelation and it is so beautiful.
  zh: 我读到《启示录》了，它是如此美丽。
- start: 4339.937
  end: 4341.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I am learning so much.
  zh: 我学到了很多。
- start: 4341.434
  end: 4344.356
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Will you ever do an Old Testament study Bible?
  zh: 你会做一本旧约研读圣经吗？
- start: 4344.356
  end: 4348.039
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If so, do you have an ETA? Yes, we do.
  zh: 如果是这样，你有预计时间吗？是的，我们有。
- start: 4348.039
  end: 4349.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And yes, we have.
  zh: 是的，我们有。
- start: 4349.28
  end: 4357.847
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Okay, so it was in 1997 that Father Fessu asked me if I would help, and I said yes, but only if you hire this grad student who just graduated.
  zh: 好的，所以是在1997年，费苏神父问我是否愿意帮忙，我说愿意，但前提是你要雇用这个刚毕业的研究生。
- start: 4357.847
  end: 4359.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He's living with my family, Curtis Mitch.
  zh: 他和我的家人住在一起，柯蒂斯·米奇。
- start: 4359.928
  end: 4363.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: For 22 years, Curtis Mitch has been doing all the heavy lifting.
  zh: 22年来，柯蒂斯·米奇一直在做所有的重活。
- start: 4363.951
  end: 4366.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I am so glad to be the general editor.
  zh: 我很高兴能成为总编辑。
- start: 4366.343
  end: 4369.224
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I have really needed to guide him very little.
  zh: 但我实际上很少需要指导他。
- start: 4369.224
  end: 4372.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We basically can finish each other's sentences.
  zh: 我们基本上可以完成对方的句子。
- start: 4372.565
  end: 4378.547
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But in December of 2020, we finished the last book of the Old Testament, Zechariah.
  zh: 但在2020年12月，我们完成了旧约的最后一本书，撒迦利亚书。
- start: 4378.547
  end: 4387.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so thanks be to God and thanks be to Curtis Mitch that this labor of love that has spanned more than two decades should be out, I suspect.
  zh: 所以感谢神，也感谢柯蒂斯·米奇，我怀疑这项跨越二十多年的爱的劳动应该会出版。
- start: 4387.73
  end: 4391.451
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I don't think by the end of 2021 there's just too much editing still to be done.
  zh: 我不认为到2021年底还有太多编辑工作要做。
- start: 4391.631
  end: 4398.957
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I think there'll be a one-volume  1 volume edition of the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible.
  zh: 但我认为会有一本《依纳爵天主教研读圣经》的单卷本。
- start: 4398.958
  end: 4400.88
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You might say, well, the New Testament is just too thick.
  zh: 你可能会说，新约太厚了。
- start: 4400.88
  end: 4408.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Those used thick pages will probably end up using onion skin, but hopefully not the kind that your marker bleeds through.
  zh: 那些用过的厚页可能最终会使用洋葱皮，但希望不是那种你的记号笔会渗透的。
- start: 4408.387
  end: 4414.732
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So just like the Protestants have 30 or 40 study Bibles, we're going to have this one, and I'm just so grateful.
  zh: 所以就像新教徒有三四十本研读圣经一样，我们也会有这一本，我非常感激。
- start: 4414.732
  end: 4417.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And Emma, thank you for reading through the whole New Testament.
  zh: 艾玛，感谢你读完整个新约。
- start: 4417.765
  end: 4419.005
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That makes my day.
  zh: 这让我很开心。
- start: 4419.005
  end: 4426.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And she also asks, what is your number one recommendation for an Old Testament study Bible for someone with a short attention span?
  zh: 她还问，对于注意力短暂的人，你推荐的首选旧约研读圣经是什么？
- start: 4426.688
  end: 4432.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, she doesn't want something too academic, but until your book gets here, what would you recommend as an Old Testament study Bible?
  zh: 换句话说，她不想要太学术的东西，但在你的书到来之前，你会推荐什么作为旧约研读圣经？
- start: 4432.669
  end: 4438.131
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, I would say so many of the individual Old Testament books are now out from Ignatius Press.
  zh: 嗯，我会说，现在依纳爵出版社已经出版了许多单独的旧约书籍。
- start: 4438.131
  end: 4439.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Genesis is a standalone.
  zh: 创世记是一本独立的书。
- start: 4439.671
  end: 4441.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Exodus is as well.
  zh: 出埃及记也是。
- start: 4441.072
  end: 4450.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I believe Deuteronomy, certainly the Psalms, the wisdom literature, the prophets and so,  By the time Emma gets through all of the ones that are out, the whole thing will be there.
  zh: 我相信申命记，当然还有诗篇、智慧文学、先知书等等，到艾玛读完所有已经出版的书时，整个东西都会在那里。
- start: 4450.726
  end: 4451.666
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Excellent.
  zh: 太好了。
- start: 4451.807
  end: 4452.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let's see here.
  zh: 让我们看看这里。
- start: 4452.387
  end: 4462.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Based Byzantine, thank you for your super chat, says, Dr. Hahn, I have been a huge fan of you since I was a kid and reading Rome Sweet Home really solidified his faith as a teenager.
  zh: 拜占庭基地，感谢你的超级聊天，说，汉恩博士，我从小就是你的超级粉丝，阅读《罗马甜蜜的家》确实巩固了他作为青少年的信仰。
- start: 4462.693
  end: 4467.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Just because we've mentioned this book, Rome Sweet Home, a few times, where can people get that book?
  zh: 只是因为我们提到过几次这本书《罗马甜蜜的家》，人们可以在哪里得到这本书？
- start: 4473.635
  end: 4476.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, it's available from Ignatius Press.
  zh: 嗯，它可以从依纳爵出版社获得。
- start: 4476.017
  end: 4478.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'll put a link in the description shortly.
  zh: 我会在描述中很快放上一个链接。
- start: 4478.699
  end: 4481.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And obviously from Jeff Bezos at Amazon.
  zh: 显然可以从亚马逊的杰夫·贝佐斯那里获得。
- start: 4481.821
  end: 4483.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You can go to bookfinder.com,
  zh: 你可以去bookfinder.com，
- start: 4483.322
  end: 4491.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: my favorite spot, and find it more cheaply, a used version, and you can get something that is fair or good or like new.
  zh: 我最喜欢的地方，可以更便宜地找到它，一个二手版本，你可以得到一些公平的、好的或像新的东西。
- start: 4492.389
  end: 4501.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I also just communicated with Mark Brumley, who Father Festia was put in charge of Ignatius, and Mark invited Kimberly and me to do a podcast  A recorded version.
  zh: 但我也刚刚与被任命为依纳爵负责人的费斯蒂亚神父的马克·布鲁姆利沟通，马克邀请金伯利和我做一个播客录制版。
- start: 4501.891
  end: 4503.551
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We've never done an audio version.
  zh: 我们从未做过音频版本。
- start: 4503.551
  end: 4509.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Some other person did, and so within the next year or so, we are really eager to go back.
  zh: 其他人做过，所以在接下来的一年左右，我们真的很想回去。
- start: 4509.054
  end: 4511.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That would be excellent.
  zh: 那会很棒。
- start: 4511.456
  end: 4517.619
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, and we also are thinking about approaching Ignatius about possibly doing like a 30th edition.
  zh: 是的，我们也在考虑与依纳爵商谈可能做一个三十周年版。
- start: 4517.639
  end: 4527.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It came out in 93, so in 2023, we could kind of add an afterword and reflect upon three decades of what it's like to live this.
  zh: 它在93年出版，所以在2023年，我们可以添加一个后记，反思三十年来生活在其中的感受。
- start: 4529.066
  end: 4533.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We have six kids and now 20 grandkids just from the first three oldest.
  zh: 我们有六个孩子，现在仅从前三个最大的孩子就有20个孙子。
- start: 4533.068
  end: 4538.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The next two, Jeremiah and Joseph, are actually in the seminary studying for the priesthood for the diocese.
  zh: 接下来的两个，耶利米和约瑟，实际上在神学院为教区的神职学习。
- start: 4538.651
  end: 4542.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so May 21st, please remember our Jeremiah prayer.
  zh: 所以请在5月21日记得为我们的耶利米祷告。
- start: 4542.213
  end: 4544.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's when he's going to be ordained a priest.
  zh: 那时他将被按立为神父。
- start: 4544.554
  end: 4549.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then Joe will follow a year later to the transitional diaconate and then to the priesthood.
  zh: 然后乔将在一年后成为过渡执事，然后成为神父。
- start: 4549.516
  end: 4557.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I must say that I knew that the Catholic faith was true when I came in, you know, 35 years ago.
  zh: 但我必须说，当我35年前加入时，我知道天主教信仰是真的。
- start: 4557.89
  end: 4567.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I just had no idea how true it is, how beautiful the truths are, how powerful the beauty of the Catholic faith is.
  zh: 我只是没有意识到它有多么真实，真理有多么美丽，天主教信仰的美有多么强大。
- start: 4567.317
  end: 4572.08
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's like the good news wasn't subtracting the gospel as a Protestant.
  zh: 这就像好消息并不是在减去作为新教徒的福音。
- start: 4572.08
  end: 4579.461
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was adding, but now I just feel as though it's more like  multiplying the good news exponentially without exaggerating.
  zh: 这是在增加，但现在我只是觉得这更像是在不夸张地指数倍增好消息。
- start: 4579.501
  end: 4582.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's like too good to be true unless it's the truth.
  zh: 这就像好得难以置信，除非这是真理。
- start: 4582.844
  end: 4585.305
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is something I keep encountering with Protestant converts.
  zh: 这是我在新教徒皈依者中不断遇到的事情。
- start: 4585.305
  end: 4588.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They don't think they had to shed any of their old beliefs necessarily.
  zh: 他们不认为他们必须抛弃任何旧信仰。
- start: 4588.908
  end: 4589.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Obviously some.
  zh: 显然有一些。
- start: 4589.949
  end: 4591.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're entering something much larger and more grand.
  zh: 他们正在进入更大更宏伟的东西。
- start: 4591.87
  end: 4595.312
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I want to ask you about Sola Scriptura.
  zh: 我想问你关于唯独圣经的事。
- start: 4596.013
  end: 4597.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How would you define it?
  zh: 你会如何定义它？
- start: 4597.334
  end: 4601.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because we don't want to straw man our Protestant brothers and sisters as they would define it.
  zh: 因为我们不想把我们的新教兄弟姐妹定义成稻草人。
- start: 4601.757
  end: 4603.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And why is it false?
  zh: 为什么它是错误的？
- start: 4603.942
  end: 4611.025
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Okay, so there are two ways to approach sola scriptura, like there are two ways to approach sola fide, you know, faith alone.
  zh: 好的，所以有两种方法来处理唯独圣经，就像有两种方法来处理唯独信心，你知道，信心唯独。
- start: 4611.025
  end: 4618.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, Aquinas puts in his Eucharistic hymn, sola fide sufficit, only faith suffices when it comes to the mystery of the Eucharist.
  zh: 我的意思是，阿奎那在他的圣餐赞美诗中写道，sola fide sufficit，只有信心足以应对圣餐的奥秘。
- start: 4618.909
  end: 4628.674
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, I would say that a Catholic could affirm sola fide, only faith will justify us, adverbially, it's only, but not faith alone, adjectivally.
  zh: 所以，我会说，天主教徒可以肯定唯独信心，只有信心会使我们称义，副词上是只有，但不是形容词上的信心唯独。
- start: 4628.674
  end: 4631.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If faith is alone, then it's dead without love.
  zh: 如果信心是孤立的，那么没有爱它就是死的。
- start: 4631.536
  end: 4644.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And likewise, I would say that the Dominicans already in the 13th and 14th centuries were affirming not sola scriptura but prima scriptura, as Brian Tierney and other historians have shown.
  zh: 同样，我会说，多米尼加人在13和14世纪已经在肯定不是唯独圣经而是首要圣经，正如布莱恩·蒂尔尼和其他历史学家所展示的。
- start: 4644.383
  end: 4649.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that is, only scripture, technically speaking, is inspired Word of God.
  zh: 那就是，严格来说，只有圣经是神的默示之道。
- start: 4649.206
  end: 4656.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The magisterium is protected by the Spirit so that it only teaches infallible truth and faith and morals when it is teaching in a definitive way.
  zh: 训导权受到圣灵的保护，以便它在以明确的方式教导时只教导无误的真理、信仰和道德。
- start: 4656.63
  end: 4667.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Likewise, the sacred tradition is  Life is efficacious, that when you celebrate the sacraments, they effect grace whether the priest is holy or in mortal sin.
  zh: 同样，圣传是有效的生命，当你庆祝圣事时，它们产生恩典，无论神父是圣洁的还是在致死的罪中。
- start: 4668.478
  end: 4670.9
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But there's something unique about inspiration.
  zh: 但关于默示有一些独特之处。
- start: 4670.9
  end: 4673.802
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Inspiratio in our tradition means dual authorship.
  zh: 在我们的传统中，默示意味着双重作者。
- start: 4673.802
  end: 4677.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's not 50-50 human and divine, it's more like Christ.
  zh: 这不是50%的人性和50%的神性，而更像基督。
- start: 4677.045
  end: 4680.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's 100% human, but it's 100% divine.
  zh: 它是100%的人性，但也是100%的神性。
- start: 4680.128
  end: 4689.155
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John aren't stenographers or amanuenses, they're full writers, they're authors, but the Holy Spirit is the principal author.
  zh: 所以马太、马可、路加和约翰不是速记员或抄写员，他们是完整的作者，他们是作者，但圣灵是主要的作者。
- start: 4689.784
  end: 4701.848
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would say that you end up discovering in the Catholic tradition a higher view of Scripture than you'll find among the Southern Baptists, but it's always subordinated to the incarnated Word.
  zh: 我会说，你最终会在天主教传统中发现比南方浸信会更高的圣经观，但它总是从属于道成肉身的道。
- start: 4701.908
  end: 4708.55
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the incarnated Word is precisely what you find in the Eucharist, and so Scripture is always subordinated to that.
  zh: 但道成肉身的道正是你在圣餐中找到的，所以圣经总是从属于这一点。
- start: 4708.61
  end: 4711.03
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the cut to the chase.
  zh: 但直接切入正题。
- start: 4711.03
  end: 4719.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The short answer is that when I read Scripture, I discovered in Scripture  that Scripture is not the only authority.
  zh: 简短的回答是，当我阅读圣经时，我在圣经中发现圣经不是唯一的权威。
- start: 4719.007
  end: 4728.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's the conventional and Protestant way of thinking of sola scriptura, that Scripture alone is the authoritative source for the Word of God.
  zh: 这是传统的新教思维方式，认为唯独圣经是神的道的权威来源。
- start: 4728.774
  end: 4737.88
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: When, in fact, Scripture tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2.15, hold fast to all that you've received from us, either in writing or by word of mouth.
  zh: 事实上，圣经在帖撒罗尼迦后书2章15节告诉我们，要坚守你们从我们所领受的一切，无论是书面的还是口头的。
- start: 4737.88
  end: 4741.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Hold fast to the tradition, the parodicis.
  zh: 坚守传统，传承。
- start: 4741.403
  end: 4748.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so Paul is reminding the Thessalonians and all of us  that what we have to hold fast to is the tradition.
  zh: 所以保罗提醒帖撒罗尼迦人和我们所有人，我们必须坚守的是传统。
- start: 4748.119
  end: 4751.781
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And there are two forms, written and oral tradition.
  zh: 有两种形式，书面和口头传统。
- start: 4752.041
  end: 4754.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Written is obviously scripture.
  zh: 书面显然是圣经。
- start: 4754.042
  end: 4759.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Oral tradition aren't the whispered secrets in the convent and the monasteries, but what you have in the liturgy.
  zh: 口头传统不是修道院和修道院中的耳语秘密，而是你在礼仪中拥有的。
- start: 4759.844
  end: 4765.246
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The prayers of the Eucharist that go back to Holy Thursday in the upper room and much, much more.
  zh: 圣餐的祷告可以追溯到楼上的圣周四，还有更多。
- start: 4765.246
  end: 4767.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The fact that we do worship on Sunday, not the Sabbath.
  zh: 我们在星期天而不是安息日敬拜的事实。
- start: 4767.907
  end: 4771.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We do baptize infants and not circumcise them.
  zh: 我们给婴儿施洗而不是给他们行割礼。
- start: 4771.329
  end: 4778.074
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: All of the oral tradition is what scripture points to  as being uniquely authoritative alongside of Scripture.
  zh: 所有的口头传统是圣经所指的，与圣经一起具有独特权威的东西。
- start: 4778.074
  end: 4783.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But once you realize Jesus said, do this, not write this, then you're grateful for the writings.
  zh: 但一旦你意识到耶稣说，行这个，而不是写这个，那么你会对这些著作心存感激。
- start: 4783.397
  end: 4789.98
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But you realize that the writings began 25, 30, 40 years after the death and resurrection.
  zh: 但你意识到这些著作是在死而复活后25、30、40年才开始的。
- start: 4790.121
  end: 4792.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so how could the church flourish and spread?
  zh: 那么教会如何繁荣和传播呢？
- start: 4792.522
  end: 4794.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, because they were doing this.
  zh: 嗯，因为他们在做这个。
- start: 4794.743
  end: 4795.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And what is this?
  zh: 这是什么？
- start: 4795.503
  end: 4796.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We call it the Eucharist.
  zh: 我们称之为圣餐。
- start: 4796.984
  end: 4798.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus called it the New Testament.
  zh: 耶稣称之为新约。
- start: 4798.825
  end: 4804.208
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So the New Testament church was spreading the New Testament faith before the New Testament books were even begun.
  zh: 所以新约教会在新约书籍尚未开始之前就已经传播新约信仰。
- start: 4804.56
  end: 4818.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, just 2 Thessalonians 2.15, likewise, 1 Timothy 3.15, where you have scripture telling us that the pillar and foundation of truth is the church, the household of God.
  zh: 所以，就像帖撒罗尼迦后书2章15节，同样，提摩太前书3章15节，圣经告诉我们，真理的柱石和根基是教会，神的家。
- start: 4818.71
  end: 4823.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, I would have preferred if Paul had said that the pillar and foundation of truth is scripture.
  zh: 现在，我会更喜欢如果保罗说真理的柱石和根基是圣经。
- start: 4823.994
  end: 4839.031
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But if scripture is pointing to the church, as well as to tradition, then you realize that sola scriptura is nowhere taught in scripture, but in fact, what scripture does teach  Subverts the notion of sola scriptura as though that is our only authority?
  zh: 但如果圣经指向教会以及传统，那么你会意识到唯独圣经在圣经中没有被教导，但事实上，圣经所教导的颠覆了唯独圣经的概念，仿佛那是我们唯一的权威？
- start: 4839.031
  end: 4847.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No, I remember even calling Dr. J.I. Packer and Dr. R.C. Sproul and asking these guys, you know, where does scripture teach sola scriptura?
  zh: 不，我记得甚至打电话给J.I.帕克博士和R.C.斯普劳尔博士，问他们，圣经在哪里教导唯独圣经？
- start: 4847.757
  end: 4856.923
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, and they would point to 2 Timothy 3.16, only scripture is inspired, but, you know, scripture is inspired, but it doesn't say only scripture is authoritative.
  zh: 你知道，他们会指向提摩太后书3章16节，只有圣经是默示的，但你知道，圣经是默示的，但它没有说只有圣经是权威的。
- start: 4856.924
  end: 4859.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so Packer was really honest with me.
  zh: 所以帕克对我非常诚实。
- start: 4859.42
  end: 4864.261
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He said, you know, it really is for us the presupposition of our faith as evangelicals.
  zh: 他说，你知道，这对我们来说确实是我们作为福音派信仰的前提。
- start: 4864.402
  end: 4874.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm like, wait a second, if our presupposition is not demonstrated from Scripture, how could we say that you can't believe anything unless it's really found in Scripture?
  zh: 我就想，等一下，如果我们的前提不是从圣经中证明的，我们怎么能说你不能相信任何东西，除非它真的在圣经中找到？
- start: 4874.024
  end: 4880.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I found it helpful when speaking to Protestants to say that tradition makes explicit what's implicit in Scripture.
  zh: 我发现当与新教徒交谈时，说传统明确了圣经中隐含的内容是有帮助的。
- start: 4880.606
  end: 4886.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Although that's not always the case, because you have the books of the Bible that aren't implicit in Scripture.
  zh: 虽然情况并非总是如此，因为你有圣经中没有隐含的书。
- start: 4886.168
  end: 4896.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I don't think it's either implicit or explicit that  God won't inspire further apostles either, or that the Revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
  zh: 我不认为这既不是隐含的也不是明确的，即神不会启示更多的使徒，或者启示录随着最后一位使徒的去世而结束。
- start: 4896.626
  end: 4897.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I don't see that in there either.
  zh: 我也没有在其中看到这一点。
- start: 4897.427
  end: 4902.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If Jesus is establishing a new covenant, and that's a kind of family.
  zh: 如果耶稣正在建立一个新约，那是一种家庭。
- start: 4902.128
  end: 4904.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In most households, more is caught than taught.
  zh: 在大多数家庭中，更多的是被感受到而不是被教导。
- start: 4904.369
  end: 4907.47
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You don't write down all the rules, you just live the life.
  zh: 你不会写下所有的规则，你只是过生活。
- start: 4907.67
  end: 4918.034
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I would say that the liturgical tradition of the church is prior, and that scripture is finally written and canonized for the liturgy, to be read and proclaimed and all.
  zh: 我会说，教会的礼仪传统是优先的，圣经最终是为礼仪而写成和正典化的，以便被阅读和宣讲等等。
- start: 4918.181
  end: 4927.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I remember asking Fr. Joseph Lienhardt at Marquette, he was a Jesuit, a patristic expert, how would you respond to Sola Scriptura?
  zh: 我记得在马凯特问过约瑟夫·利恩哈特神父，他是耶稣会士，教父学专家，你会如何回应唯独圣经？
- start: 4927.643
  end: 4947.726
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He was a Jesuit, I was still a Protestant, and he looked at me and he knowingly said, okay, if you recognize 2 Thessalonians 2.15 and you're reading Augustine for this doctoral seminar on Augustine, I think Augustine would say that really what Scripture teaches is solo traditio, tradition alone.
  zh: 他是耶稣会士，我还是新教徒，他看着我，心领神会地说，好吧，如果你承认帖撒罗尼迦后书2章15节，并且你在为这个关于奥古斯丁的博士研讨会阅读奥古斯丁，我想奥古斯丁会说，圣经真正教导的是唯独传统。
- start: 4947.765
  end: 4951.006
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that there's oral tradition, but there's also written tradition.
  zh: 并且有口头传统，但也有书面传统。
- start: 4951.006
  end: 4961.789
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the transmission of the truth and the life, that's what Scripture teaches, that's what Augustine teaches, and that's also what Dei Verbum chapter 2 teaches.
  zh: 但真理和生命的传递，这是圣经教导的，这是奥古斯丁教导的，这也是《神的道》第二章教导的。
- start: 4961.829
  end: 4966.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that sent me stirring to read Dei Verbum chapter 2, and I'm like, it nails it.
  zh: 这促使我去读《神的道》第二章，我就想，它说得很到位。
- start: 4966.811
  end: 4981.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I can hardly think of a single person I've ever talked to who read Dei Verbum, the dogmatic constitution of divine revelation, one of the 16 documents of Vatican II, and arguably  the most authoritative and the most formative or transformative.
  zh: 我几乎想不出我曾与之交谈过的任何一个人读过《神的道》，这是梵蒂冈第二次大公会议的16个文件之一，可以说是最权威和最具形成性或变革性的。
- start: 4981.45
  end: 4986.673
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You read the first three chapters and you realize they don't have a lower view of Scripture than anybody.
  zh: 你读了前三章，你会意识到他们对圣经的看法不比任何人低。
- start: 4986.773
  end: 5002.062
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But they recognize that the overarching category that is drawn from the New Testament is the tradition, that is, the transmission of the truth of the life of Christ that comes from the Spirit to the apostles through the sacraments and the proclamation of the Word and all the rest.
  zh: 但他们认识到，从新约中得出的总体类别是传统，即通过圣事和道的宣讲以及其他一切，从圣灵到使徒的基督生命真理的传递。
- start: 5002.062
  end: 5006.778
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And once you just adjust your lenses that way,  Suddenly it's like three-dimensional.
  zh: 一旦你这样调整你的视角，突然间就像是三维的。
- start: 5006.778
  end: 5009.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's scripture, liturgy, and the magisterium.
  zh: 这是圣经、礼仪和训导权。
- start: 5009.758
  end: 5012.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the magisterium is not like the Supreme Court.
  zh: 但训导权不像最高法院。
- start: 5012.119
  end: 5014.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The magisterium is like an apostolic organism.
  zh: 训导权就像一个使徒的有机体。
- start: 5014.64
  end: 5024.623
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They're proclaiming scripture, they're celebrating the sacraments, and they're empowered by the Spirit to teach infallibly what you need to know to avoid the toxin of heresy and that sort of thing.
  zh: 他们在宣讲圣经，他们在庆祝圣事，他们被圣灵赋予权力，以无误地教导你需要知道的，以避免异端的毒害和类似的事情。
- start: 5025.183
  end: 5033.966
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: De Clouze Views, who's got an excellent YouTube channel that people should check out, says, Like you, I love St. Thomas and the Communio Theologians.
  zh: De Clouze Views，他有一个很棒的YouTube频道，人们应该去看看，他说，像你一样，我爱圣托马斯和共融神学家。
- start: 5034.042
  end: 5038.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Many think they are incompatible or even label the Communio thinkers as modernists.
  zh: 许多人认为他们不相容，甚至将共融思想家标记为现代主义者。
- start: 5038.805
  end: 5039.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What would you say?
  zh: 你会怎么说？
- start: 5039.806
  end: 5041.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Another hour, please.
  zh: 请再给我一个小时。
- start: 5041.527
  end: 5043.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let me try to give bullet points.
  zh: 让我试着给出要点。
- start: 5058.956
  end: 5064.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, my favorite theologian in the 20th century is the Dominican Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, by far.
  zh: 你知道，我在20世纪最喜欢的神学家是多米尼加的雷金纳德·加里古-拉格朗日，远远超过其他人。
- start: 5064.5
  end: 5071.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He is the best expositor of St. Thomas, who's the best expositor of Augustine, who was the best expositor of the Old and New Testament.
  zh: 他是圣托马斯的最佳诠释者，圣托马斯是奥古斯丁的最佳诠释者，而奥古斯丁是旧约和新约的最佳诠释者。
- start: 5072.165
  end: 5079.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: My second favorite is Ratzinger, who I think is the best of the nouvelle theologie, the best of the ressourcement theologians.
  zh: 我第二喜欢的是拉辛格，我认为他是新神学中最好的，是资源神学家中最好的。
- start: 5079.97
  end: 5086.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think that de Lubach is brilliant, I have learned so much from him, but when it comes to nature and grace, I think that he's wrong.
  zh: 我认为德吕巴克很出色，我从他那里学到了很多，但当涉及到自然和恩典时，我认为他是错的。
- start: 5086.975
  end: 5097.374
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But for all the right reasons,  because he wants to re-historicize with the old and the new, so much of what would have become abstract categories of nature grace.
  zh: 但出于所有正确的理由，因为他想用旧的和新的重新历史化，许多本来会成为自然恩典的抽象类别。
- start: 5097.555
  end: 5110.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Likewise, Donyalew and Congar, I would say what Matt Levering is doing, he's a dear friend and a great scholar and a very prolific writer, he's doing ressourcement tomism.
  zh: 同样，Donyalew和Congar，我会说马特·莱弗林正在做的事情，他是一个亲密的朋友，一个伟大的学者和一个非常多产的作家，他正在做资源托马斯主义。
- start: 5110.285
  end: 5113.047
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Tomism is the noun.
  zh: 托马斯主义是名词。
- start: 5113.388
  end: 5115.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Ressourcement is the modifier.
  zh: 资源是修饰语。
- start: 5115.407
  end: 5119.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There is so much truth that is rediscovered by going back to the sources.
  zh: 通过回到源头，重新发现了许多真理。
- start: 5119.369
  end: 5129.895
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Although, if you go back to the 1800s, you'll discover that the Thomists, like Franzilien and others, were doing the same thing that the Lubach and Congar and Danielou were doing, only better.
  zh: 虽然，如果你回到1800年代，你会发现托马斯主义者，如弗朗西连和其他人，正在做与德吕巴克、Congar和Danielou相同的事情，只是做得更好。
- start: 5129.996
  end: 5131.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I don't think it's an either-or.
  zh: 但我不认为这是非此即彼的选择。
- start: 5131.837
  end: 5142.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think if you subordinate Re Source Mont theology to the perennial philosophy of Aquinas, you're going to end up with the happiest and most fruitful intellectual marriage you can have.
  zh: 我认为如果你将资源神学从属于阿奎那的常青哲学，你将最终拥有最快乐和最富有成果的智力结合。
- start: 5143.684
  end: 5144.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 5144.5
  end: 5148.982
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Dennis Vu says, Dr. Hahn, hi from one of your former students.
  zh: Dennis Vu说，汉恩博士，你的一位前学生向你问好。
- start: 5148.982
  end: 5149.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Hello to Dennis.
  zh: 向丹尼斯问好。
- start: 5149.862
  end: 5151.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We text almost every week.
  zh: 我们几乎每周都发短信。
- start: 5151.383
  end: 5151.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh, really?
  zh: 哦，真的吗？
- start: 5151.743
  end: 5156.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says, can you comment on what attending the Latin Mass has done for you?
  zh: 他说，你能评论一下参加拉丁弥撒对你有什么影响吗？
- start: 5156.765
  end: 5157.985
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I attend daily.
  zh: 我每天都参加。
- start: 5157.985
  end: 5163.447
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How has this changed your prayer life and perspective of the sacred liturgy?
  zh: 这如何改变了你的祷告生活和对神圣礼仪的看法？
- start: 5163.448
  end: 5163.848
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: All right.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 5163.848
  end: 5166.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: First of all, every valid Mass is heaven on earth.
  zh: 首先，每一个有效的弥撒都是人间的天堂。
- start: 5166.989
  end: 5173.231
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's inexhaustible, every valid Mass, Novus Ordo or the traditional Latin Mass.
  zh: 它是取之不尽的，每一个有效的弥撒，无论是新礼弥撒还是传统拉丁弥撒。
- start: 5174.704
  end: 5178.608
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I am more at home in the Novus Ordo because for so many years that's all I knew.
  zh: 我在新礼弥撒中更自在，因为多年来那是我所知道的一切。
- start: 5178.608
  end: 5180.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's all my parishes did.
  zh: 那是我所有堂区所做的。
- start: 5180.649
  end: 5190.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I must admit that going to the traditional Latin Mass at our parish at noon on Sunday has been transformative.
  zh: 但我必须承认，周日中午在我们堂区参加传统拉丁弥撒是具有变革性的。
- start: 5191.278
  end: 5196.863
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I have a preferential option for that which has been around for more than 1500 years.
  zh: 我对那种存在了1500多年的东西有优先选择。
- start: 5197.183
  end: 5205.591
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We're doing something that is a valid experiment, concocting Eucharistic prayers  In the 60s, canonizing them in the 70s.
  zh: 我们正在做一些有效的实验，在60年代编造圣餐祷文，在70年代将其正典化。
- start: 5206.813
  end: 5211.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I can't help but wonder if Lex Orundi, Lex Credendi is true.
  zh: 但我不禁想知道Lex Orundi, Lex Credendi是否是真的。
- start: 5211.277
  end: 5220.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Lex Orundi, the law of prayer, the law of worship is the basis for Lex Credendi, the law of belief, but also Lex Vendi, that is the law of life.
  zh: Lex Orundi，祈祷的法则，敬拜的法则是Lex Credendi，信仰的法则的基础，也是Lex Vendi，即生命的法则。
- start: 5220.706
  end: 5227.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If you can just tinker with this and change it, you're going to set an emotion, expectations that will  Conclude, well, we can change the doctrine.
  zh: 如果你可以随意摆弄和改变它，你会设定一种情感，期望得出结论，我们可以改变教义。
- start: 5227.742
  end: 5229.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We can change the morals as well.
  zh: 我们也可以改变道德。
- start: 5229.422
  end: 5231.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That seems to be what's happened.
  zh: 这似乎就是发生的事情。
- start: 5231.063
  end: 5238.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, and so I would say we've got to affirm the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass and recognize it is inexhaustible.
  zh: 是的，所以我会说我们必须肯定新礼弥撒的有效性，并承认它是取之不尽的。
- start: 5238.605
  end: 5245.607
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think we can also recognize the objective superiority of the Latin Mass without becoming mad trads.
  zh: 我认为我们也可以承认拉丁弥撒的客观优越性，而不必成为疯狂的传统主义者。
- start: 5245.607
  end: 5248.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Most of the rad trads I've known over the years are angry.
  zh: 多年来我认识的大多数激进传统主义者都很愤怒。
- start: 5248.903
  end: 5254.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I describe myself as a Glad Trad, as a Trentocostal, as a Stratasmatic.
  zh: 我形容自己是一个快乐的传统主义者，一个特伦特五旬节派，一个分层主义者。
- start: 5254.87
  end: 5256.332
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm a Catholic, and so...
  zh: 我是一个天主教徒，所以……
- start: 5256.332
  end: 5258.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You're going to write a new book with all of these puns.
  zh: 你要写一本包含所有这些双关语的新书。
- start: 5258.574
  end: 5259.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, it's all of the above.
  zh: 嗯，以上都是。
- start: 5259.876
  end: 5265.441
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We don't have to give in to the sectarian impulse to say that this one movement is going to save the Church.
  zh: 我们不必屈服于宗派冲动，认为这一运动将拯救教会。
- start: 5265.442
  end: 5267.577
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No, the Mass will save the Church.
  zh: 不，弥撒将拯救教会。
- start: 5267.577
  end: 5273.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: However, it's celebrated validly in the Eastern Rites or in the Dominican Rite.
  zh: 然而，它在东方礼仪或多米尼加礼仪中有效地庆祝。
- start: 5273.179
  end: 5279.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I wanted to ask you, what do you see as positive in this new movement of young people desiring the heritage that was never given them?
  zh: 我想问你，你认为在这场年轻人渴望从未给予他们的遗产的新运动中有什么积极的？
- start: 5280.883
  end: 5282.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What should we be careful of?
  zh: 我们应该注意什么？
- start: 5282.003
  end: 5284.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I think you're already alluding to it and becoming angry.
  zh: 我想你已经在暗示这一点并变得愤怒。
- start: 5284.765
  end: 5295.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, I think they're rightly saying to the older generation, look, you ended up rejecting something, and that is the traditional Latin mass and all of that went with it.
  zh: 嗯，我认为他们对老一代人说得对，看，你们最终拒绝了一些东西，那就是传统的拉丁弥撒和随之而来的所有东西。
- start: 5295.265
  end: 5296.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We don't have the choice.
  zh: 我们没有选择。
- start: 5296.325
  end: 5304.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, in a certain sense, you abandoned something that you felt perhaps was inferior or whatever, outmoded.
  zh: 我的意思是，在某种意义上，你放弃了一些你觉得可能是劣等的或其他什么，过时的东西。
- start: 5305.067
  end: 5309.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But I think the next generation is coming up and saying, you know, give us a chance.
  zh: 但我认为下一代正在崛起并说，你知道，给我们一个机会。
- start: 5309.308
  end: 5310.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Expose it to it.
  zh: 让我们接触它。
- start: 5310.028
  end: 5311.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Let us be exposed to that.
  zh: 让我们接触到那个。
- start: 5311.888
  end: 5321.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when they are, I think all of the fads of the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, into the 90s, I mean, fad is just an acronym for a day.
  zh: 当他们接触到时，我认为60年代、70年代、80年代到90年代的所有时尚，我的意思是，时尚只是一天的缩写。
- start: 5321.57
  end: 5325.869
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And, you know,  And so I think that there have been a lot of liturgical fads.
  zh: 而且，你知道，所以我认为有很多礼仪时尚。
- start: 5325.969
  end: 5331.511
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, I was hearing about one priest was describing a marijuana mass in 69 after Woodstock.
  zh: 你知道，我听说有一位神父在描述69年伍德斯托克之后的大麻弥撒。
- start: 5331.511
  end: 5334.932
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, and we heard about clown masses and other things too.
  zh: 是的，我们也听说过小丑弥撒和其他事情。
- start: 5334.932
  end: 5346.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I just feel like let the experimentation die out, you know, and let the Novus Ordo continue and let us prepare for it at our mass 10 a.m. at St. Peter's.  It's beautiful.
  zh: 所以我只是觉得让实验消亡，你知道，让新礼弥撒继续，让我们在圣彼得教堂上午10点的弥撒中为此做好准备。这很美。
- start: 5346.834
  end: 5347.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's beautiful.
  zh: 这很美。
- start: 5347.395
  end: 5348.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's ad orientum.
  zh: 这是面向东方的。
- start: 5348.615
  end: 5349.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We have the Latin.
  zh: 我们有拉丁文。
- start: 5349.916
  end: 5351.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The altar rails.
  zh: 圣坛栏杆。
- start: 5351.036
  end: 5354.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yes, and we receive on our knees at the altar rail as well.
  zh: 是的，我们也在圣坛栏杆上跪着领受。
- start: 5354.238
  end: 5360.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so to me, there really is a glorious convergence that can be done and that should be done.
  zh: 所以对我来说，确实有一个可以完成并且应该完成的光辉汇合。
- start: 5360.86
  end: 5378.771
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think it will take the next generation of priests, because I can't speak for my two seminarian sons, but I get a sense that they and their classmates are open, if not eager, to sort of appropriate both streams and make it, you know,  I grew up in Pittsburgh, Three Rivers Stadium, the Monongahela, the Allegheny becomes the Ohio River.
  zh: 我认为这需要下一代的神父，因为我不能代表我的两个神学院学生儿子发言，但我感觉他们和他们的同学是开放的，如果不是渴望的话，去适当地结合这两种流派，你知道，我在匹兹堡长大，三河体育场，莫农加希拉河，阿勒格尼河汇成俄亥俄河。
- start: 5378.771
  end: 5381.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now I live alongside of the Ohio River.
  zh: 现在我住在俄亥俄河旁边。
- start: 5381.573
  end: 5389.898
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I feel as though I live where the confluence of the Novus Ordo and the Latin come together in a beautiful, life-giving way.
  zh: 我感觉我住在新礼弥撒和拉丁弥撒在一个美丽、赋予生命的方式中汇合的地方。
- start: 5390.179
  end: 5391.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Thank you, Dennis.
  zh: 谢谢你，丹尼斯。
- start: 5391.079
  end: 5394.381
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, there's a lot of people who are like, Glad Trads, rise!
  zh: 是的，有很多人就像，快乐的传统主义者，崛起吧！
- start: 5394.561
  end: 5400.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In a sense, there's an awkwardness in reclaiming a tradition that was never yours because you weren't given it.
  zh: 从某种意义上说，重新获得一个从未属于你的传统是有些尴尬的，因为你没有被给予它。
- start: 5400.626
  end: 5414.408
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's almost like going to an antique store  And buying something beautiful, but it's not really yours, it's somebody else's. And so I think that awkwardness that we're seeing among younger Catholics, myself included, who are super excited about tradition, is just that.
  zh: 这几乎就像去古董店买一些美丽的东西，但它不是真的属于你的，它是别人的。所以我认为我们在年轻的天主教徒中看到的那种尴尬，包括我自己在内，对传统超级兴奋，就是这样。
- start: 5414.408
  end: 5416.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's going to be nice to see when it becomes second nature.
  zh: 当它成为第二天性时会很好。
- start: 5416.389
  end: 5417.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a good analogy.
  zh: 这是一个很好的比喻。
- start: 5417.15
  end: 5417.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 5417.951
  end: 5419.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, because, you know, growing up...
  zh: 是的，因为，你知道，成长中……
- start: 5419.292
  end: 5419.712
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I wish I had it.
  zh: 我希望我有它。
- start: 5419.712
  end: 5422.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I wish somebody had exposed me to the rosary, to the incense.
  zh: 我希望有人让我接触到玫瑰经，接触到香。
- start: 5427.236
  end: 5428.676
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I wish they didn't try to be...
  zh: 我希望他们没有试图成为……
- start: 5428.676
  end: 5430.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm not making a false dichotomy here.
  zh: 我不是在这里制造一个错误的二分法。
- start: 5430.777
  end: 5434.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm not saying you can either have a sloppy Novus Order or a beautiful Tridentine Mass.
  zh: 我不是说你可以选择一个草率的新礼弥撒或一个美丽的特伦特弥撒。
- start: 5434.178
  end: 5438.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Of course, you can have both of each, but I wish somebody had exposed that to me.
  zh: 当然，你可以同时拥有这两者，但我希望有人向我展示过这一点。
- start: 5439.079
  end: 5440.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Everywhere else I see irreverence.
  zh: 在其他地方我看到的是不敬。
- start: 5440.64
  end: 5443.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It would be nice to see deep reverence in the religion.
  zh: 在宗教中看到深深的敬意会很好。
- start: 5443.92
  end: 5450.582
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Here's a question we can never answer, and that is, what would it have been like if all of these Rad Trads had grown up?
  zh: 这是一个我们永远无法回答的问题，那就是，如果所有这些激进传统主义者都长大了，会是什么样子？
- start: 5450.658
  end: 5453.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Only with the Latin, and only with the family rosary.
  zh: 只有拉丁文，只有家庭玫瑰经。
- start: 5453.719
  end: 5461.143
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, would they have gone through an adolescent phase where they too would have preferred the fads of whatever decade they were raised in, you know?
  zh: 我的意思是，他们会不会经历一个青春期，在那里他们也会更喜欢他们成长的任何十年的时尚，你知道吗？
- start: 5461.183
  end: 5465.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, I don't think that the blame game is something that either side will win.
  zh: 所以，我不认为责备游戏是任何一方会赢的东西。
- start: 5465.945
  end: 5470.647
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I just think that what we have to do is say, yes and yes.
  zh: 我只是认为我们必须做的是说，是的，是的。
- start: 5470.947
  end: 5474.328
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yes, you know, both hand is the Latin, is the Catholic phrase.
  zh: 是的，你知道，两者兼有是拉丁文，是天主教的说法。
- start: 5474.929
  end: 5477.23
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Here's another question for you.
  zh: 这是另一个问题给你。
- start: 5477.731
  end: 5484.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think there are a lot of people who, and I was one of these for a while, felt like a bit of a refugee.
  zh: 我认为有很多人，包括我自己在内，曾经一段时间感觉像个难民。
- start: 5484.515
  end: 5493.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I lived in Atlanta and many of the parishes around me, the Holy Mass wasn't celebrated with a great deal of reverence and so I ended up going to a Byzantine church because it was there that I found reverence.
  zh: 我住在亚特兰大，周围的许多堂区，圣弥撒并没有以很大的敬意来庆祝，所以我最终去了一个拜占庭教堂，因为在那里我找到了敬意。
- start: 5494.361
  end: 5498.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I think maybe there's a danger there too and I'm not sure.
  zh: 但我认为那里也可能有危险，我不确定。
- start: 5498.783
  end: 5510.441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I wonder if natural piety should lead us to  Want to be a part of our own heritage and not to quickly set it aside and adopt some sort of Ruthenian traditions or something like that.
  zh: 我想知道自然的虔诚是否应该引导我们成为我们自己遗产的一部分，而不是迅速将其搁置并采用某种鲁塞尼亚传统或类似的东西。
- start: 5510.441
  end: 5512.382
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Do you have any concerns about that or not really?
  zh: 你对此有任何担忧吗，或者并不是真的？
- start: 5512.382
  end: 5513.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who's the Australian saint again?
  zh: 那位澳大利亚圣人是谁？
- start: 5513.723
  end: 5515.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is St. Mary MacKillop.
  zh: 那是圣玛丽·麦基洛普。
- start: 5515.444
  end: 5521.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And you were telling me before we started that she was, what was her relationship with the bishop like?
  zh: 你在我们开始之前告诉我，她与主教的关系如何？
- start: 5521.166
  end: 5543.638
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: My understanding, I've got to look this up to get all the details right, so I apologize if I'm getting it wrong, but I believe St. Mary MacKillop was excommunicated by the Bishop of Adelaide  I think there's something profoundly Catholic about that, especially if we want to become saints.
  zh: 据我了解，我得查一下以确保所有细节正确，所以如果我弄错了，我很抱歉，但我相信圣玛丽·麦基洛普被阿德莱德主教绝罚，我认为这有一些深刻的天主教意义，尤其是如果我们想成为圣人。
- start: 5544.979
  end: 5553.365
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's not like a cover-up a la Watergate, but it is like Shem and Japheth walking in backwards to cover the nakedness of Noah, as St. Josemaria points out.
  zh: 这不像是水门事件那样的掩盖，而是像圣荷西玛利亚指出的那样，闪和雅弗倒退着走进去遮盖挪亚的赤身。
- start: 5553.606
  end: 5558.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I must admit, Opus Dei has been my tribe in Israel.
  zh: 我必须承认，主业会一直是我在以色列的部落。
- start: 5559.403
  end: 5569.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: When they do the Novus Ordo, because I've never seen them do the traditional Latin Mass, it is so beautiful, it is so sacred, it is so reverent and transcendent.
  zh: 当他们进行新礼弥撒时，因为我从未见过他们进行传统拉丁弥撒，它是如此美丽，如此神圣，如此敬畏和超越。
- start: 5570.271
  end: 5577.636
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But on the other hand, I must admit that when I was in Milwaukee becoming a Catholic, you could go and it was ring around the altar.
  zh: 但另一方面，我必须承认，当我在密尔沃基成为天主教徒时，你可以去，那是围绕祭坛的。
- start: 5577.636
  end: 5584.141
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I remember in the chapel of St. Joan of Arc where we were commanded by the priest to stand around the altar.
  zh: 我记得在圣贞德的小教堂里，我们被神父命令站在祭坛周围。
- start: 5584.141
  end: 5590.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I quietly slipped out, but I remember just those few awkward moments where  Let's just kind of wing it.
  zh: 我悄悄溜了出去，但我记得那几个尴尬的时刻，我们就随便应付一下。
- start: 5590.056
  end: 5605.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I've been in many liturgies in the 80s where all of the experimentation was still going on, and I'm just thinking, you know, if you had to give up your career for this, I don't think you would feel so comfortable just kind of dabbling.
  zh: 所以我在80年代参加过许多礼仪，所有的实验仍在进行，我只是在想，你知道，如果你必须为此放弃你的职业，我不认为你会觉得如此舒适地随便涉猎。
- start: 5606.066
  end: 5615.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I don't want to judge their hearts, but at the same time, the objective reality of the Mass, when it's celebrated according to the rubrics, with reverence,  You know, it just is so amazing.
  zh: 我不想评判他们的内心，但同时，弥撒的客观现实，当它按照礼仪规则庆祝时，带着敬意，你知道，它就是如此惊人。
- start: 5615.095
  end: 5615.495
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: One last thought.
  zh: 最后一个想法。
- start: 5615.495
  end: 5643.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I was just talking to a dear friend, a former student, who's been celebrating the traditional Latin Mass for the last two years, and he was describing the first time, and he went back into the sacristy after it was done, sang it for some Carmelites, and the Mother Superior came back, and he just said, this is the single most joyful day of my life, because I have never been at Mass where I disappeared, where I was joined with you, all of the sisters,  And I was able to worship our Lord.
  zh: 我刚刚和一位亲爱的朋友，一个前学生交谈，他在过去两年里一直在庆祝传统拉丁弥撒，他在描述第一次，当它结束后他回到圣器室，为一些加尔默罗修女唱了它，修女长回来，他只是说，这是我一生中最快乐的一天，因为我从未在弥撒中消失过，我和你们，所有的修女一起，我能够敬拜我们的主。
- start: 5643.723
  end: 5645.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't my personality.
  zh: 这不是我的个性。
- start: 5645.144
  end: 5646.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't my accent.
  zh: 这不是我的口音。
- start: 5646.285
  end: 5648.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't anything that was me.
  zh: 这不是任何属于我的东西。
- start: 5648.087
  end: 5651.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I disappeared, and this is the single most joyful day of my life.
  zh: 我消失了，这是我一生中最快乐的一天。
- start: 5651.491
  end: 5655.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Do you have any advice, though, for a Catholic who might say, I just want to go to a Byzantine Catholic church?
  zh: 不过，你对一个可能会说，我只想去拜占庭天主教堂的天主教徒有什么建议吗？
- start: 5655.902
  end: 5658.843
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And maybe kind of abandon the Western heritage, as it were.
  zh: 也许可以说是放弃西方遗产。
- start: 5658.843
  end: 5664.104
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, I mean, the quick advice was what was given to me when I was thinking about that myself, going Byzantine Catholic.
  zh: 嗯，我的意思是，快速的建议是当我自己考虑这个问题时给我的，去拜占庭天主教。
- start: 5664.104
  end: 5669.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, my priest friend said, look, you are a Westerner, you know, German and English, and so is Kimberly.
  zh: 你知道，我的神父朋友说，看，你是一个西方人，你知道，德国人和英国人，金伯利也是。
- start: 5669.865
  end: 5672.746
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's not fair for you to impose that on her.
  zh: 你把这个强加给她是不公平的。
- start: 5672.746
  end: 5674.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, it's one thing to change faith.
  zh: 我的意思是，改变信仰是一回事。
- start: 5674.506
  end: 5676.947
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's another thing to change culture.
  zh: 改变文化是另一回事。
- start: 5676.947
  end: 5683.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But he also pointed out that, you know,  To shop around, to do church shopping is such a vestige of your Protestantism.
  zh: 但他也指出，你知道，到处逛，到处找教会是你新教主义的遗迹。
- start: 5684.649
  end: 5687.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: To find the most exotic blend of coffee, that's understandable.
  zh: 寻找最奇异的咖啡混合，这可以理解。
- start: 5687.911
  end: 5695.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But to find the most exotic blend of liturgy, that is the subjectivism of your own background, your Protestantism.
  zh: 但要找到最奇异的礼仪混合，那是你自己背景的主观主义，你的新教主义。
- start: 5696.196
  end: 5698.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I just think that you bloom where you're planted.
  zh: 我只是认为你应该在你被种植的地方开花。
- start: 5698.377
  end: 5700.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You are who you are.
  zh: 你就是你。
- start: 5700.519
  end: 5706.682
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If you're in America, you're part of the West, for better or worse, and the Occidental is not inferior to the Oriental.
  zh: 如果你在美国，你就是西方的一部分，无论好坏，西方并不比东方差。
- start: 5706.827
  end: 5713.192
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No matter what you hear, there really is a sense in which breathing with both lungs doesn't privilege the right over the left.
  zh: 无论你听到什么，确实有一种感觉，双肺呼吸并不偏袒右边而不是左边。
- start: 5713.192
  end: 5715.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's helpful.
  zh: 这很有帮助。
- start: 5715.213
  end: 5722.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Dr. Hahn, this has been an absolute pleasure, and I cannot wait to have you back on the show, especially because you're up the road now, so it'll be very easy.
  zh: 汉恩博士，这真是太高兴了，我迫不及待想让你回到节目中，特别是因为你现在就在路上，所以这会很容易。
- start: 5722.199
  end: 5726.962
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Tell folks how they can learn more about you, the St. Paul Biblical Center, for example.
  zh: 告诉大家他们如何能更多地了解你，比如圣保罗圣经中心。
- start: 5727.543
  end: 5731.246
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, 20 years ago, Kimberlin and I founded the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology.
  zh: 嗯，二十年前，金伯林和我创立了圣保罗圣经神学中心。
- start: 5731.246
  end: 5734.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's available at ststpaulcenter.com.
  zh: 可以在ststpaulcenter.com找到。
- start: 5735.043
  end: 5741.608
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And we really had this mission of teaching Catholics to read the Bible from the heart of the church.
  zh: 我们的使命是真正教导天主教徒从教会的核心阅读圣经。
- start: 5741.648
  end: 5747.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Biblical literacy for lay people, biblical fluency for our clergy and for our educators as well.
  zh: 为平信徒提供圣经素养，为我们的神职人员和教育工作者提供圣经流利度。
- start: 5747.973
  end: 5755.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But just falling in love with our Lord and also reading the scripture liturgically to experience the liturgy in biblical terms.
  zh: 但只是爱上我们的主，并以礼仪方式阅读圣经，以圣经术语体验礼仪。
- start: 5755.938
  end: 5759.821
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That there is really a kind of one hand washing the other.
  zh: 确实有一种一手洗另一手的感觉。
- start: 5759.961
  end: 5774.869
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when that happens, what we find is just like on the road to Emmaus,  Did not our hearts burn within us as the Scriptures were opened, but always ordered to the opening of the eyes of faith to the real presence of Christ in the breaking of the Eucharistic bread.
  zh: 当这种情况发生时，我们发现的就像在往以马忤斯的路上，当圣经被打开时，我们的心不是在我们里面燃烧吗，但总是指向信仰之眼的开启，以在圣餐饼的擘开中看到基督的真实临在。
- start: 5774.889
  end: 5786.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I've done a number of books, I won't go into those, but nowadays I'm really working almost exclusively with Emmaus Road Publishing and Emmaus Academic, which are the two publishing arms of the St. Paul Center.
  zh: 所以我写了很多书，我不会详细说那些，但如今我几乎专门与以马忤斯路出版社和以马忤斯学术合作，它们是圣保罗中心的两个出版部门。
- start: 5786.667
  end: 5788.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And there are so many good books that I've been learning.
  zh: 我一直在学习很多好书。
- start: 5788.793
  end: 5791.821
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I just signed a contract with Emmaus Road for that Aquinas book, so thank you.
  zh: 我刚刚与以马忤斯路签署了关于那本阿奎那书的合同，所以谢谢你。
- start: 5791.821
  end: 5792.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Thanks be to God.
  zh: 感谢神。
- start: 5792.683
  end: 5794.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, well thanks so much for being here.
  zh: 好的，非常感谢你来到这里。
- start: 5794.307
  end: 5795.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh, what a joy.
  zh: 哦，多么快乐。
- start: 5870.051
  end: 5872.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
