汉恩博士，很高兴您能参加节目。 Dr. Hahn, lovely to have you on the show.
感谢您的到来。 Thanks for being here.
很高兴和您在一起，邻居。 Great to be with you, neighbor.
是的，正是如此。 Yes, exactly.
已经一个半月了。 It's a month and a half now.
很好。 Nice.
我一直在斯图本维尔。 I've been in Steubenville.
我非常喜欢这里。 I'm absolutely loving it.
你随便扔块石头都会砸到一个好的天主教家庭。 You can't throw a rock without hitting a good Catholic family.
你不应该扔石头。 You shouldn't throw a rock.
感谢您的邀请。 Well, thanks for the invite.
很高兴能来到您的演播室。 It's great to be here in your studio.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
很荣幸您能参加节目。 Honored to have you on the show.
您知道，现在有一批新人正在考虑天主教，他们可能会说是被天主教吸引。 You know, there's a new crop of people out there who are considering Catholicism, who are tempted, they might put it, by Catholicism.
我想，您可能有一段时间没有向大批观众分享您皈依天主教的故事了。 And I thought, it's probably been a while since you have shared your story to a large crowd, a large audience, about your own conversion to Catholicism.
因为我知道自从《罗马甜蜜的家》以来，您写了多少本书？ Because I know you've written how many books since Rome Sweet Home?
大约四十到五十本。真是太好了。 Somewhere between 40 and 50. That's beautiful.
是的，也许更多。 Yeah, maybe more.
我不知道。 I don't know.
我没有记录。 I don't keep track.
我在加拿大做传教士时读了《罗马甜蜜的家》。 I read Rome Sweet Home when I was serving as a missionary in Canada.
哦，哇。 Oh, wow.
我记得被它深深感动。 And I just remember being really moved by it.
其中有些内容让我印象深刻。 There were certain things in it that struck me.
我相信您经常听到这样的反馈。 I'm sure you get told this repeatedly.
您的那本书《罗马甜蜜的家》怎么样了？ How's that book of yours, Rome Sweet Home, doing?
我还是不知道。 Again, I don't know.
它已经卖出了一百多万本。 It's sold over a million.
它被翻译成大约二十五种语言。 It's in about 25 different languages.
我们花了三个星期来写。 It took us three weeks to write.
对我们这对夫妻来说，这真是一种治疗。 It was really therapy for us as a married couple.
我们笑过，哭过，祷告过，互相道歉并原谅对方。 We laughed, we cried, we prayed, we apologized and forgave each other.
她承诺只需要三天。 She promised it would take three days.
我很惊讶竟然花了三个星期。 I was surprised that it took three weeks.
我想，到了2023年，这本书就要迎来三十周年了。 We're coming up to our 30th anniversary, I think, in 2023 for the book, that is.
我们已经结婚四十一年了。 We've been married 41 years.
但这本书本身却有了自己的生命。 But the book itself just took on a life of its own.
我从未回去重读过任何一节。 I've never gone back and reread a single section.
编辑有点困难，但最初是从我们在路易斯安那州巴吞鲁日的一次联合演讲的记录开始的。 Editing was kind of hard, but it originally started with a transcript of a talk that we gave in tandem down in Louisiana, Baton Rouge if memory serves.
效果非常好，后来我们听说有人把整个演讲都转录了下来，于是我们得到了一个副本。 And it went so well that When it was taped, we heard later on that somebody had transcribed the whole thing, and so we got a copy of that.
那就是《罗马甜蜜的家》的粗略草稿，因为我们来回讨论，从未想过要写一本书。 And that was the rough, rough draft of Rome's Sweet Home, because we would go back and forth, and we never thought about writing a book.
我们从未想过要把它分成章节，比如他的和她的那种。 We never thought about dividing it up into chapters that, you know, his and her, that sort of thing.
神的恩典就像曾经的小溪流，如今已成为一条大河。 The grace of God is just, you know, what was once a little trickle, you know, has now become a river of one.
我最近刚和一个朋友谈起1986年加入教会的情形。 I was just talking to a friend recently about what it was like in 86. To come into the church.
汤姆·霍华德在85年非常安静地加入了，我知道这件事，但大约 十年间，他看起来更有可能加入俄罗斯东正教，直到最后一刻。 Now, Tom Howard had come in in 85 very quietly, and I had known about that, but for about 10 years it looked more likely that he would go Russian Orthodox than at the last minute.
他在读纽曼和其他东西，于是决定加入天主教。 He was reading Newman and other things, and so he decided to go Catholic.
我直到事情发生几个月后才知道。 I didn't actually find out about it until a few months after it happened.
但在80年代，那时这件事就像共和党主席叛逃到苏联一样不可思议。 But back then, you know, in the 80s, it was as unthinkable as, like, the chairman of the GOP defecting to the Soviet Union or something, you know.
这不仅是不可思议的，简直是反过来的，因为那时天主教徒成群结队地成为福音派新教徒。 It was such a, you know, it was not only unthinkable, it was like the reverse, because the Catholics were becoming evangelical Protestants back then, you know, in droves still.
这是86年，但在70年代直到86年，你可以用一 只手数出使徒团体的数量，比如EWTN刚刚起步。 This would be 86, but in the 70s and up until 86, And you could count on one hand the number of apostolates, you know, like EWTN was just getting started.
天主教答疑仍然主要是一个新兴团体。 Catholic Answers was still mostly a fledgling group.
我不确定还有什么其他的。 And I'm not sure what else there was.
依纳爵出版社刚刚开始。 Ignatius Press had just begun.
但除此之外没有太多，除非你像我一样喜欢旧书，那你 可以在旧书店里花上几个小时，几乎一路读到罗马。 But there wasn't much else, except if you liked old books as much as I did, you know, then you could spend hours in used bookstores and read your way almost, you know, all the way to Rome.
那么你会说，如果你想用这个词，反天主教在70年代和80年代更为突出吗？ So would you say that the anti-Catholicism, if you want to use that language, was more prominent in the 70s and 80s?
今天感觉不太像那样。 It doesn't feel like that so much today.
不，不是的。我是说，皈依天主教会不再是一个震撼事件，不再像新教的里氏震级那样。 No, it doesn't. I mean, converting to the Catholic Church is no longer a seismic event, you know, picking up on the Protestant Richard scale.
你曾经认为自己是反天主教的吗？ Would you have considered yourself an anti-Catholic?
这个词到底是什么意思？ And what does that word even mean?
是的，好吧，那么在70年代…… Yeah, okay, so in the 70s...
我在快14岁时经历了年轻时的皈依恩典。我已经在一系列少年法 庭听证会上度过了一年半的时间，涉及销售和持有、入室盗窃、邮 件欺诈、伪造以及其他我不想详细说明的事情。我母亲说，是的。 I experienced the grace of a young adult conversion when I was almost 14. I'd already spent about a year and a half in a series of juvenile court hearings for sales and possession, breaking and entering, mail fraud, forgery, and all of the other things that I won't go into My mother said, yeah.
然后我找到了基督，或者说他找到了我。 And then I found Christ, or he found me.
我住在匹兹堡，那是福音派改革宗加尔文主义新教的堡垒。 And I was living in Pittsburgh, and that was sort of the bastion of evangelical reformed Calvinist Protestantism.
R.C. 斯普劳尔正在那里建立利戈尼尔山谷研究中心，然后搬到奥兰多。 R.C. Sproul was just setting up the Ligonier Valley Study Center there before moving it down to Orlando.
我开车去见他，听他的圣经研究，但他还有一个叫做闲聊会的活动。 And I was driving out to see him and to hear his Bible study, but he also had this thing called a gab fest.
大约一个小时的车程，我作为高中的二年级学生，每周都期待着。 And it was about an hour drive, and I just looked forward to it week after week as a sophomore in high school.
然后他介绍我认识了他的导师格什纳博士，他拥有 哈佛大学的博士学位，并在匹兹堡的神学院任教。 And then he introduced me to Dr. Gershner, his mentor, who had a PhD from Harvard and taught at the seminary in Pittsburgh.
我意思是，这些人不仅仅是新教徒，他们不仅仅是非天主教徒，他 们是你能遇到的最反天主教的人，但这不是偏执、偏见和仇恨。 And, I mean, these guys weren't just Protestant, they weren't just non-Catholic, they were as anti-Catholic as you could come, but it wasn't bigotry, prejudice, and hate.
只是因为，教宗声称自己无误。 It was just, you know, the sense that the Pope claims to be infallible.
你知道，循道宗的领袖没有这样做。没有其他人这样做。 You know, the head of the Methodist Church doesn't. Nobody else does.
如果这个人不是他所声称的那样，那么就是一种属灵的暴政，一个欺骗的网络。 If this guy is not what he claims to be, then there's a spiritual tyranny, a web of deceit.
首先，我不太确定你所说的反天主教是什么意思，因为正如你所说，如果有人看了天 主教会的主张并认为它们是错误的，那么他们应该想帮助你拒绝那些错误的东西。 First of all, I'm not really sure what you mean by anti-Catholic, because as you say, if somebody looks at the claims of the Catholic Church and thinks they're false, then they should want to help you reject those false things.
那么你所说的反天主教是什么意思？ So what do you mean by anti-Catholic?
因为有时我觉得我们随意使用这个词，有点不公平。 Because sometimes I think we throw that around, it's a little unfair.
有人只是看着天主教说，我不是反天主教，只是它是错误的，我想让你知道真相。 Someone just looks at Catholicism and says, I'm not anti-Catholic, it's just false, and I want you to know the truth.
好问题。 Good question.
回顾70年代，我认为至少有三种可以识别的反天主教类型。 You know, in looking back on the 70s, I think there were at least three identifiable types of anti-Catholicism.
我认为我的观点是少数派报告。 I think mine was the minority report.
那是斯普劳尔和格什纳，他们触及了新教改革的多数派报告，因 为加尔文、路德、慈运理和诺克斯在各种事情上都存在分歧。 That was Sproul and Gerstner, which tapped into the majority report of the Protestant Reformation because Calvin and Luther and Zwingli and Knox disagreed on all kinds of things.
但他们共同的信念是教宗是敌基督。 But the one thing they all shared in common was this conviction that the Pope is the Antichrist.
不仅仅是异端，我是说自命不凡，邪恶的异端。 And not just heretical, but I mean pretentiously, diabolically heretical.
同样地，圣餐，他们不仅仅是庆祝圣餐，他们是敬拜圣餐。 And so, likewise the Eucharist, they don't just celebrate the Eucharist, they worship the Eucharist.
如果那只是一块饼干，一个深刻而神圣的象征，但仅此 而已，那么大多数形式的偶像崇拜都没有那么卑劣。 And if that's just a wafer, a profound and sacred symbol, but nothing more, then most forms of idolatry are not as debased as that.
然后是圣母马利亚，我不想开始谈论，因为这看起来就像是马利 亚崇拜，因此这些信念与圣经如此相悖，以至于不值得谈论。 Then the Blessed Virgin Mary and I don't want to get me started because it just seemed like Mariolatry and so it was the settled conviction that these beliefs were so contrary to scripture it wasn't even worth talking about.
这实在是超出了界限。 It was so beyond the pale.
还有另一种反天主教主义，源于50年代和60年代，当时美国文化正在同化 天主教人口，但尚不清楚天主教徒将如何与美国的多元自由民主制度相处。 There was another anti-Catholicism too that stemmed from the 50s and the 60s as American culture was assimilating the Catholic population but it wasn't altogether clear how Catholics would relate to The pluralistic liberal democracy that America was.
有一种政治形式的反天主教主义，尤其是在肯尼迪竞选总统时达到高潮。 There was a political form of that, and especially it came to head when JFK was running for president.
那么，他会听命于教宗吗？ Well, will he take his orders from the Pope?
还有一种是我父母，尤其是我母亲所持有的文化反 天主教主义，认为爱尔兰人或意大利人不必申请。 And then there was another type that my parents had, especially my mom, and that was a cultural anti-Catholicism where the Irish need not apply, or the Italians.
因此，这些文化上的天主教徒 字幕由Amara.org提供 And so these cultural Catholics Subtitles by the Amara.org
社区 说得对。 community Fair enough.
你是如何开始听说天主教的，又是什么时候开始改变对它的看法的？ How did you start hearing about Catholicism, and when did you start to change your opinion about it?
是的，我的意思是，那是一个渐进的过程。 Yeah, I mean, that was a gradual process.
你知道，我从来没有像支持圣经那样反对天主教。 You know, I was never as anti-Catholic as I was pro-Scripture.
我热爱神的道。 I loved the Word of God.
我想生活在基督的主权之下。 I wanted to live under the Lordship of Christ.
我相信神的道是默示的。 I believed that the Word of God was inspired.
它是无误的。 It was without error.
必须以负责任的方式来解释。 It had to be interpreted in a responsible way.
但我基本上想要一个圣经的世界观。 But I basically wanted a biblical worldview.
所以在高中时，我记得为英语课写了一篇关于马丁·路德的毕业论文，要求是十页。 And so in high school, I remember writing my senior paper on Martin Luther for an English class, 10-page requirement.
你知道，我的论文好像有24页长。 You know, I think mine was 24 pages long.
这是在高中吗？ This is in high school?
在高中，是的。 In high school, yeah.
你应该有大约三个来源。 And you're supposed to have like three sources.
我想我有将近三十个来源。 I think I had almost 30 sources.
我只是想向我的英语教授邓格勒女士和所有可能读到它的朋友传福音。 And I just wanted to evangelize my English professor, Ms. Dengler, and all my friends who might read it.
快速提问。 Quick question.
我的意思是，你说你在高中时有过皈依。 I mean, you said you had a conversion in your high school years.
你的父母对这种皈依有什么看法？ What did your parents think of this conversion?
他们很高兴能摆脱所有这些听证会。 They were relieved to be out of all of these hearings.
而我母亲开始慢慢地跟随我走上皈依的道路。 And my mother began to slowly kind of follow me in the path of conversion.
这是一个渐进的过程，因为她在高中时有过某种经历，但她放弃了。 It was gradual because she had had some kind of experience back in high school that she just abandoned.
她以为自己长大了，只是一个阶段。 She thought she grew out of it, just a phase.
所以当她看到它不仅发生在我身上，而且在我身 上成长时，我想她有点被吸引，但她也在回忆。 And so when she saw it not only happening but But growing in me, I think that she was sort of drawn to it, but she was also reminiscing about it.
所以当我经历我的皈依时，她会谈论她在高中时的经历。 And so she would talk about her experience back in high school as I was going through mine.
但我的经历更具知识性。 But mine was much more intellectual.
我记得在十年级时读过马丁·路德的《意志的捆绑》。 I remember reading The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther in 10th grade.
在十年级时读过斯蒂尔和托马斯的《加尔文主义五要点》。 The Five Points of Calvinism by Steele and Thomas in 10th grade.
与我的朋友们，高年级学生分享。 Sharing it with my friends, upperclassmen.
不仅是向他们传福音，而是向他们传授神学。 Not just evangelizing them, but theologizing them.
所以这只是…… And so it was just...
这不仅仅是头脑的旅行，因为基督不仅用圣灵充满了我的心，还充满了对真理的爱。 It wasn't just a head trip because I had, I mean, Christ filled my heart with not only the Holy Spirit, but I mean, with a love for the truth.
你知道，如果我追溯从那时到现在的轨迹，我想我 仍然有那种对真理的爱，可以带我去任何地方。 And you know, if I were to trace the trajectory from then until now, I think that I still have that love for the truth that would take me almost anywhere.
但现在我发现的，实际上是在神学院后成为天主教徒 的过程中发现的，那就是我所爱的真理是爱的真理。 But now what I've discovered, and really I discovered in the process of becoming Catholic after seminary, and that is the truth that I love is the truth of love.
不是60年代的那种爱，你知道的，L-U-V，和平，爱，伍德斯托克等等。 Not the love of the 60s, what you spelled, you know, L-U-V, peace, love, you know, Woodstock and all of that.
因为我必须诚实地说，我厌恶那个词“爱”。 Because I must be honest, I despise that word love.
我只是，你知道，爱意味着永远不必说对不起， 爱，所有那些60年代末和70年代的东西。 I'm just, you know, love means never having to say you're sorry, love, all of that stuff in the late 60s and 70s.
此外，R.C. 斯普劳尔做了一系列演讲，让我深受其影响， 关于神的圣洁，他专注于以赛亚书第六章：圣哉，圣哉，圣哉。 Besides, R.C. Sproul had given a series of talks that just put me in their grip, the holiness of God, and he focused on Isaiah 6. Holy, holy, holy.
不是爱，爱，爱。 Not love, love, love.
但你发现的，至少我发现的，是我所爱的并想要更好地阅读、研 究和理解的真理最终引导我认识到三位一体不仅仅是真实的。 But what you discover, at least what I've discovered, is that the truth that I love and wanted to read and study and understand much better ultimately led me to the fact that the Trinity is not just true.
三位一体是真理，但三位一体是永恒的爱。 The Trinity is truth, but the Trinity is eternal love.
这是爱的相交。 This interpersonal communion of love.
神不是永恒的创造者，因为无论创造有多古老，它都不是永恒的。 God is not an eternal creator, because however old creation is, it's not eternal.
神是永恒的。 God is eternal.
那么神永恒的是什么？ So what is God eternally?
那么，三位一体是唯一的神，三位一体是神永恒的唯一存在，因此发现爱的相交，突 然之间，他如何救赎我们，如何用圣灵充满我们，为什么使我们神化，所有这些。 Well, the Trinity is the only God there is, and the Trinity is the only thing God eternally is, and so to discover a communion of love, then suddenly what he does to redeem us How he fills us with the Spirit, why he divinizes us, and all of that.
就像那些多米诺骨牌最终落到位，但当你看着它们时， 你意识到我在青少年时期相信的好消息变得越来越好。 It's like those dominoes eventually fell into place, but boy, when you're looking at them, you're realizing the good news that I believed back as a teenager just keeps getting better.
毫不夸张地说，它更真实，更美丽，更有力量。 Without rhetorical exaggeration, it's more real, it's more beautiful, it's more powerful.
但我快进了，我应该回去。 But I'm fast-forwarding, I should go back.
天主教的什么最初打动了你？ What was it about Catholicism that first struck you?
你在大学时是反天主教的，是什么事情让你开始想，好吧，哇，他们那个是对的？ You were anti-Catholic in college, What was the first thing that happened that you began thinking, okay, wow, they got that one right?
是的，那不是在大学发生的。 Yeah, that didn't happen in college.
在大学时，我大一时与刚从普林斯顿来的范德卡佩 利博士有过一次经历，他开了一门圣经神学课程。 In college, I had an experience my freshman year with Dr. Vande Capelli, who had just come from Princeton, and he gave a course on biblical theology.
与此同时，我所有的同学都急着去这个五旬节教会重新受洗。 At the same time, all of my classmates were rushing off to this Pentecostal church to get rebaptized.
我也打算加入他们，因为我不记得自己在婴儿时受过洗。 And I was going to join them, too, because I don't remember being baptized as an infant.
那时或现在对我来说都没有意义。 It didn't mean anything to me then or now.
于是我的教授挑战我，去研究一下。 And so my professor challenged me, look into it.
我的意思是，研究圣经。 I mean, study scripture.
不要仅仅跟随你的情绪。 Don't just follow your emotions.
于是我为他的课程写了一篇关于旧约割礼和新约洗礼的主要研究论文。 And so I worked on the major research paper for his course on circumcision of the old, baptism in the new.
那时是施行给婴儿的。 It's administered to infants then.
现在是施行给婴儿的吗？ Is it administered to infants now?
约显然成为解开这个问题的关键，回答了神不会 在旧约中包括婴儿然后突然排除婴儿的问题。 And covenant became so obviously the key that would unlock that and answer the question that God would not include infants in the Old Covenant and suddenly exclude infants.
详细说明一下，没有双关语的意思，给那些不熟悉割礼和洗礼之间这种平行关系的人。 Flesh that out, no pun intended, for those who aren't familiar with this sort of parallel between circumcision and baptism.
是的，所以在创世记第十七章中给亚伯拉罕的约的记号是所有八天大的男孩都要受割礼。 Yeah, so the sign of the covenant that was given to Abraham in Genesis 17 was for all of the male children at the age of eight days To be circumcised.
于是他们会割去男性生殖器的包皮。 And so they would cut off the foreskin of the male generative organ.
我就说到这里。 I'll leave it at that.
那就是约的记号。 And that was the sign of the covenant.
正如保罗在罗马书中所描述的，这是信心的记号和印记。 It was a sign and seal of faith, as Paul describes it in Romans.
亚伯拉罕的信心。 Abraham's faith.
任何99岁并同意受割礼的人一定有很大的信心。 And anybody who is 99 years old and consents to circumcision must have a lot of faith.
所以当你看割礼是如何施行的，直到今天，如果你和一个正统犹太人交谈，希伯来语中 的“约”这个词，b'rit，或他们发音为b'ris，基本上就是割礼的意思。 So when you look at how circumcision is practiced, and to this day, If you talk to an Orthodox Jew, the Hebrew word for covenant, b'rit, or they pronounce it b'ris, is the word that is basically circumcision.
所以当你使用希伯来词b'ris或b'rit时，它与割礼同义。 So when you use the Hebrew word b'ris or b'rit, it is synonymous with circumcision.
这不仅仅是进入，而是整个履行你在受割礼时接受的约的义务的结构。 It is not just the entry, it is the whole structure of living out the obligations of the covenant that you accepted when you were circumcised.
这也是对你出生的家庭及其价值观的体现。 It's also living up to the family into which you've been born, their values.
所以两千年来，割礼一直在施行。 So for 2,000 years, circumcision is practiced.
然后耶稣设立洗礼，你知道的，使万民作门徒，奉父、子、圣灵的名给他们施洗 ，见于马太福音28章。因此，当彼得在使徒行传2章五旬节讲第一篇道时，说 悔改，信而受洗，因为这应许是给你们和你们的儿女，并一切在远方的人。 And then Jesus institutes baptism, you know, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28. And so when Peter preaches the very first sermon at Pentecost in Acts 2, repent, believe, and be baptized for the promise is to you and your children and to those who are far off.
你知道，如果你在使徒行传2章五旬节带孩子来受洗，彼得不会说，等 等，当我说应许是给你们和你们的儿女时，我并不是说他们会受洗。 You know, if you were bringing your kids up to get baptized at Pentecost in Acts 2, you know, Peter would not have said, wait, when I said the promises to you and to your children, I didn't mean that they would get baptized.
不，在旧约中，婴儿是包括在内的，但现在婴儿被排除在外。 No, in the old covenant, infants were included, but now infants are excluded.
你会想，为什么你不这样说呢？ You're like, why didn't you say so?
那么，如果现在在新约中婴儿被排除在外，你就必须这样说。 Well, if infants were excluded now in the new, you would have to say so.
但如果婴儿在新约中被包括在内，并且他们将与家人一 起受洗，那么当然不言而喻，因为这只是约的延续。 But if infants are included in the new and they're going to get baptized along with their households, Then, of course, it would go without saying, because it's just the continuity of the covenant.
不连续性是从逾越节到圣餐，从割礼到洗礼，从安息日（ 在一周的末尾）到主日（在一周的开始），复活的日子。 The discontinuity is changing from Passover to Eucharist, from circumcision to baptism, from the Sabbath, which comes at the end of the week, to the Lord's Day, which begins the week, the day of resurrection.
但作为加尔文主义者，我是说，加尔文主义者给婴儿施洗，不是吗？ But as a Calvinist, I mean, Calvinists baptize babies, don't they?
他们认为这对选民是有效的。 They think they're efficacious for the elect.
一切都基于约。 All on the basis of covenants.
所以这是你接受的东西，甚至没有真正考虑天主教走到了这一步。 So this is something you accepted, not even really thinking what Catholicism got this far.
我们还远没有到那一步。 We're not even near there yet.
没错。 That's right.
所以在接下来的四年本科期间，我写的每篇论文都与 约有关，通常都比较长，而我对这些研究非常着迷。 So every paper I wrote for the next four years as an undergraduate had something to do with covenant, and they were usually longish, and I was just enthralled by the research.
但在最后一两年，我开始发现对我来说非常基础的 东西，那就是，我们常常将约和合同互换使用。 But in the last year or two, I began to discover what has become so foundational for me, and that is, okay, we use covenant and contract interchangeably.
在古代以色列，你绝不会这样做。 In ancient Israel, you'd never do that.
因为在合同中，这是你的，那是我的。 Because in a contract, this is yours, that is mine.
在约中，我是你的，你是我的。 In a covenant, I am yours, and you are mine.
你们交换承诺，然后交换财产，合同就履行了。 You exchange promises, and then you exchange property, and the contract is fulfilled.
你可能会续约，也可能再也不与对方有任何关系。 And you might renew it, or you might have nothing to do with that party ever again.
但在约中，你不仅仅是做出承诺。 But in a covenant, you don't just make promises.
你要发誓。 You swear the oath.
你要呼求神的名。 You invoke the name of God.
拉丁语中这个词是sacramentum。 The Latin word for that is sacramentum.
一旦你发现这一点，就像我一样，你会意识到约基 本上是同义的，不是交易交换，而是家庭相交。 And once you discover this, as I did, Then you realize that a covenant was basically synonymous, not with a transactional exchange, but family communion.
那么，如果神不仅仅是与我们续约，而是立约，这意味着什么？ And so, okay, if God is not just renewing a contract with us, but a covenant, what does that imply?
这意味着他是父亲。 Well, it implies that he's a father.
这意味着他的子民是一个家庭。 It implies that his people are a family.
西奈山不像制宪会议。 That Sinai was not like the Constitutional Convention.
这不是一个社会契约。 It wasn't a social contract.
这不是一个神圣的合同。 It wasn't a sacred contract.
这是一个神圣的约。 It was a sacred covenant.
我的意思是，这就是婚姻和卖淫之间的区别。 And I mean, that's the difference between marriage and prostitution.
对他们来说，这就像是地震般的。 I mean, for them, it's like seismic.
所以我就想，我要做一个调整，因为在改革宗福音派 加尔文主义神学中，从未将约明确定义为家庭纽带。 So I just thought, well, I'll make one adjustment, because nowhere in reformed evangelical Calvinist theology was covenant ever clarified in its definition as family bond.
这不仅仅是核心家庭，就像诺亚方舟上的诺亚和他 的妻子以及他们的三个儿子，他们都有三个妻子。 And it's not just the nuclear family, as it was aboard the ark with Noah and his wife and their three sons who all had three wives.
你知道，这是亚伯拉罕之下的一个部落，他是约的 中保，是在西奈山形成的十二个部落的国家家庭。 You know, it's a tribe under Abraham, who's the mediator of the covenant, It's 12 tribes that form a national family at Mount Sinai.
所以如果我们从旧约的国家转向新约的公教会，国际的 ，我的意思是，这确实花了我两三年的时间来思考。 And so if we're moving from the national in the old to the Catholic, the international in the new, I mean, this did take me two or three years to think through.
这主要是通过向那些提出难题的人教授圣经，我会试图在一时兴起中想出一个答案。 It was mostly through teaching Scripture to people who had asked hard questions, and I would try to think up an answer, you know, on the spur of the moment.
所以你没有和你的朋友一起去受洗，因为在这次研究 之后你意识到你作为婴儿的洗礼是有效的，合法的？ So you didn't go get baptized with your friends because after this research you realized that your baptism was valid, legitimate as a baby?
没错。 That's right.
这反应很有趣，因为你知道，这些人是同学，是好朋友，我们会在 食堂一起吃午饭，但突然之间很明显他们在排斥我，因为，哦，他 只是把一切都知识化了，这是神学，而我们在河里感受到了圣灵。 And it was a funny response because You know, these guys were classmates, they were good friends, we would have lunch in the cafeteria, but then suddenly it became obvious that they were ostracizing me because, oh, he just intellectualizes everything, it's theology, you know, whereas we felt the Holy Spirit, you know, in the river.
我就像，我非常感激，但我也感激，就像我没有选择我的家庭一样，我也没有选择我自己。 And I'm like, I was so grateful, but I was also grateful that Just as I didn't choose my family, so I didn't choose myself.
我的意思是，这真的是赐给我的。 I mean, it was really given to me.
你有没有回去找这位大学教授告诉他你发现了什么？ Did you go back to this university professor and tell him what you had found?
哦，是的。 Oh, yeah.
在过去的四十、四十五年里，我实际上一直与他保持联系。 And I've actually stayed in touch with him over the last 40, 45 years.
好吧，那么从那里开始说起。 Okay, well, take us from there then.
我想了解你开始面对天主教的那一刻。 I want to get to the point where you started facing Catholicism.
所以你在大学时结婚了。 So you got married in college.
我就像那个谚语中的撑竿跳选手，退得太远了。 I'm like the proverbial pole-baller who backs up too far.
没关系。 That's all right.
我累了。 I'm exhausted.
不，没关系。 No, that's okay.
但你是在大学时结婚还是大学后结婚？ But you got married in college or after college?
就在大学毕业后。 Right after college.
我们都在1979年毕业。我们相爱了，在大学 四年期间的最后两年一起在青年生活中工作。 We both graduated in 1979. We were in love, working together in Young Life for the last two years of our four-year stint as college students.
她是个活力四射的人。 And she was a dynamo.
她很了不起。 She was amazing.
所以当我们以约的形式进入婚姻时，我非常有意识地活出我的神学，并追踪这一点。 And so when we entered into marriage as a covenant, I was so conscious of living out my theology and tracing this, you know.
于是我们去了神学院。 And so we went to seminary.
我仍然被认为不仅是非天主教徒，而且是反天主教的。 I was still known as Not only non-Catholic, but anti-Catholic.
我敢说，在我们的福音派神学院，没有人会说，哦，我比斯科特更反天主教。 And I dare say, at our evangelical seminary, nobody would have said, oh, I'm more anti-Catholic than Scott.
哦，真的吗？ Oh, really?
快速插一句。 Quick side note.
你有没有遇到过天主教徒并试图向他们传福音？ Did you ever meet Catholics and try to evangelize them?
哦，我的意思是，那是我的运动。 Oh, I mean, that was my sport.
除了棒球、足球和吉他，是的。 Besides baseball, football, and guitar, yeah.
我的意思是，我会在高中和大学时以我的天主教朋友为目标。 I mean, I would target my Catholic friends in high school and in college.
只是试图调整。 And just try to calibrate.
他们中有谁对信仰有了解吗？ Were any of them knowledgeable about the faith?
一个也没有。 Not a single one.
只是某种文化上的？ Just kind of cultural?
对。 Right.
他们中有不少。 A number of them.
事实上，我会说他们中的大多数我都回去联系过。 In fact, I would say the majority of them I've kind of gone back to.
如果我联系他们，我会寄给他们装有书籍等物品的关怀包裹。 And if I drew them out, I have sent them care packages of boxes with books and that sort of thing.
你这样做真好，是的。 That's very good of you, yeah.
其中一个，克里斯，现在是我们和金伯利创立的圣保罗中心的董事会成员。 And one of them in particular, Chris, is now on the board of the St. Paul's Center, which Kimberly and I founded.
那是另一天的故事。 That's another story for another day.
所以无论如何，你结婚了。 So anyway, you got married.
是的。 Yeah.
所以我们婚姻的第一年是我们在神学院的第一年。 And so our first year of marriage was our first year in seminary.
所以我们在实践中生活。 And so we're living it out.
当然，我们在避孕。 We're contraceptive, of course.
我的意思是，当我的岳父，我们未来的岳父，给我们做牧灵辅导时，因 为他是在学院山长老会教堂为我们主持婚礼的人，避孕不是一个问题。 I mean, when my father-in-law, our future father-in-law, was giving us pastoral counseling, because he was the one who married us at College Hill Presbyterian Church, contraception was not an issue.
唯一的问题是，你会使用哪种形式？ The only question was, what form will you use?
所以我想是我们的第二年，金伯利全职工作。她第一年在 哈佛附近的剑桥工作，然后我的第二年是她的第一年。 And so it was, I think it was our second year that Kimberly was going full-time Her first year she was working down in Cambridge near Harvard, and then my second year was her first year.
我获得了神学硕士学位，她获得了文学硕士学位。 I got the Master of Divinity, she got the Master of Arts.
我的学制是三年，她的是两年。 Mine was three years, hers was two.
但她选修了一门基督教伦理课程，她在《罗马甜蜜的家》中描述了这一点 ，因为她选择了避孕，这本来不是个问题，我想知道为什么要浪费时间。 But she took a course in Christian Ethics, and she describes this in Rome, Sweet Home, because she chose contraception, which was such a non-issue, I wondered why waste your time.
于是她深入研究，阅读了《人类生命》和其他一些资料，发现直到1930年，所有 新教教派在这一点上与天主教完全一致，然后在过去50年里，性革命突然发生。 And so she dove into it, she read Humanae Vitae and some other sources and found out that until 1930, all Protestant denominations were in complete lockstep with Catholics on this, and then suddenly, in the last 50 years, the sexual revolution.
于是她开始质疑，一些我的朋友，同学们说，你应 该和你妻子谈谈，她有一些相当有说服力的论点。 And so she began to question it, and some friends of mine, classmates, were saying, you ought to talk to your wife, you know, she's got some pretty persuasive arguments.
好吧，鉴于这个主题，我认为更好地谈论它是合适的，所以我们谈了。 Well, given the subject matter, I thought it was appropriate to talk about it better, so we did.
她给了我一本书，书名是《避孕与婚姻之约》。 And she gave me a book, then it was entitled Birth Control and the Marriage Covenant.
我以为我拥有每一本书名中带有“约”字的书，因为它们都是新教徒写的。 I thought I owned every book with the word covenant in the title because they were all by Protestants.
这本是约翰·基普利写的，读到30页时，它让我感到非常不舒服。 This one was by John Kipley and 30 pages into it, it's making me so uncomfortable.
我记得她在卧室，我把书扔到房间的另一边，她听到了。 I remember she's in the bedroom, I threw it across the room and she heard it.
于是我承认，我对那些我从未听过的论点感到沮丧，这些论点显然与圣经 一致，也与自然法则一致，还有一种我认为我们应该分享的神圣常识。 And so I just admitted that I'm frustrated by arguments I've never heard before that just so obviously line up with Scripture but also with natural law And a kind of sanctified common sense that I thought, you know, we ought to share.
于是我读完了这本书，我意识到金伯利是对的。 And so I finished the book and I realized Kimberly was right.
自1930年以来我们就错了，你知道的，那些我们非常熟悉的教派在 30年代和40年代允许避孕，现在也在倡导女性不受限制的堕胎权。 We were wrong since 1930, you know, and the same denominations that we knew so well that had allowed contraception in the 30s and 40s were now advocating for unrestricted abortion rights for women as well.
我对那本书的作者不熟悉。 I'm unfamiliar with the author of that book.
他是新教徒吗？ Is he a Protestant?
约翰·基普利是一个晚期的…… John Kipley was a late...
我想他现在已经八十多岁了。 I think he's in his late 80s now.
他住在辛辛那提。 He lives in Cincinnati.
他多年来一直是亲密的朋友。 He's been a dear friend for many years.
他的儿子克里斯在90年代去了方济会大学。 His son Chris went to Franciscan back in the 90s.
所以他是天主教徒？ So he was a Catholic?
是的。 Yeah.
所以你在读一本天主教徒写的书？ So you were reading a book by a Catholic?
约翰·基普利是一个非常矛盾的人物，因为在60年代和70年代，没有平信徒神学家。 And John Kipley was this really paradoxical figure because in the 60s and 70s, There were no lay theologians.
如果你是平信徒，你就是哲学家。 If you were a layman, you were a philosopher.
如果你是神学家，你就是神父。 If you were a theologian, you were a priest.
但在这本书中，基普利的第二个异常是，在60年代末和70年代初，当他 写这本书时，没有神学家为《人类生命》辩护，除了哲学家格尔曼·格里斯 ，他是平信徒，顺便说一下，还有从未获得博士学位的约翰·基普利。 But there was a second anomaly about Kipley in this book, that in the late 60s and early 70s, when he wrote it, there were no theologians who defended Humanae Vitae, except for Germain Grise, who was a layman, but a philosopher, by the way, and John Kipley, who never got his doctorate.
但他能从圣经中提出有说服力的论点…… But could really argue persuasively from biblical...
但他是在约神学的基础上进行论证。 But he was arguing on the basis of covenant theology.
当你在领受圣餐时更新约时，你不能吐出来。 That when you renew the covenant in receiving Holy Eucharist, you can't spit it out.
确实有一种意义上，这个记号象征着一种相交。 There really is a sense in which that sign signifies a communion.
更甚者，在婚姻行为中，当你与新娘更新约时，为什么 要这样做，然后故意阻止那赋予生命的爱产生其后果。 And even more, in the marital act, when you renew your covenant with your bride, why would you do that and then deliberately prevent That life-giving love from having its consequences.
这不是一个让我屈服的论点，不是数到十我就被打败了。 And it wasn't an argument that just pinned me down and counted to ten and I was beaten and defeated.
这是我第一次遇到的爱的逻辑，就像，好吧，这不仅仅是抽象的哲学 逻辑，尽管我很喜欢，因为我从高中起就是一个好的托马斯主义者。 It was the logic of love that I encountered for the first time where it's like, okay, that isn't just abstract philosophical logic as much as I love that because I was a good Thomist since high school.
但这是我从未遇到过的逻辑。 But it was a logic that I had never encountered before.
当这两个身体结合以更新约时所表达的爱的语言或逻辑，它 只是表明如果你在吃食物，那是为了营养也是为了相交。 That the language or the logic of love that is expressed when these two bodies unite to renew a covenant, it just follows that if you're eating food, it's for nutrition and also for fellowship.
但如果你在吃食物然后吐出来，那就是饮食失调。 But if you're eating food and then spitting it out, that's an eating disorder.
所以这是一种性失调。 And so this is a sexual disorder.
这让我意识到这可能有助于我理解为什么我们的文化如此腐败和堕落。 And it struck me that this might help me understand why our culture is just so corrupt and so perverse.
那么你是如何做出停止使用避孕措施的选择的？ So how did you make the choice to stop using contraception?
好吧，我的第一个选择是停止相信它在道德上是合法的。 Well, my first choice was to stop believing that it's morally licit.
然后当金伯利开始谈论其影响和实际后果时，我想，哇，我们不要急于求成。 And then when Kimberly began to kind of talk about the implications, practical consequences, like, whoa, let's not rush this.
然后我很明显地意识到我只是屈服于恐惧。 And then it was obvious to me that I was just giving into fear.
所以，你知道，在几个月内，我们意识到我们的思想改变带来了她身体的变化。 And so, you know, within a matter of months, we realized that our change of mind had brought about a change in her body.
因此，我们的长子就是因此而怀上的。 And so our firstborn was conceived as a result of that.
你现在是在牧养一个教会吗？ Are you pastoring a church at this point?
不，我实际上是在完成神学院的学业。 No, I'm actually finishing seminary at this point.
那是什么样的？ So what was it like?
你有没有让其他人知道这是我们决定的，圣经会禁止避孕，这不是神的旨意？ Did you let other people know that this is something we've decided the Bible would prohibit contraception, this isn't God's will?
她做了。 She did.
我的意思是，在某种意义上，这是她对爱的逻辑、神的道以及 新教徒在20世纪中叶之前所共享的基督教传统的彻底开放。 I mean, in a certain sense, it was her radical openness to the logic of love, to the Word of God, and to the Christian tradition that Protestants had shared up until about the middle of the 20th century.
我有点羞愧，因为我们完全接受了这一切，而且因为我自己的约神学被用来反对我。 And I was sort of ashamed because we had just swallowed hook, line, and sinker, but also because my own covenant theology had been used against me.
为什么我们作为加尔文主义者以前没有看到这一点？ And why had we as Calvinists not seen this before?
而像保禄六世这样的天主教徒怎么能如此清楚地看到并如此有力地陈述呢？ And how could Catholics like Pope Paul VI see it so clearly and state it so compellingly?
我们家有一句话。 And we had a line in our family.
我妈妈常说，即使是瞎猪也能找到橡子。 My mom used to say, even the blind hog finds an acorn.
所以我就想，好吧，如果你已经存在了两千年，你一定会有一 些正确的东西，我们就简单地放手，让它在我们的掌握中。 And so I just thought, well, if you've been around 2,000 years, You're bound to get something right, and we'll just simply slip, we let it go to our grasp.
但我认为这有点像堤坝上的漏洞，所以这似乎只是一个小调整。 But I think that it was sort of the hole in the dike, and so it just seemed to be a small adjustment.
实际上，我只是与加尔文、路德、贺智、沃菲尔德和其他所有人保持一致。 And really I was just lining up with Calvin and Luther and Hodge and Warfield and all of the others.
所以当我在1982年毕业并开始在费尔法克斯牧养一个教会时，那时是三一长老会教堂。 So when I graduated in 1982 and began to pastor a church in Fairfax, at the time it was Trinity Presbyterian Church.
当你做这些事情时，我还是个胎儿。 I was a fetus while you were doing that.
继续。 Continue.
字面上。 Literally.
82年。感谢神赐予生命。 82. Thank God for life.
所以，你知道，当年12月4日迈克尔出生时，金 伯利已经分娩超过30小时，然后紧急剖腹产。 So, you know, when Michael was born that year, December 4th, Kimberly had been in labor for over 30 hours and then a cesarean section emergency.
而且，你知道，看到爱变得如此牺牲，看着我妻子 的身体成为母亲，这也是一种从五感开始的革命。 And, you know, to see love become that sacrificial and to look at my wife's body as she's become a mother, that also was a sort of revolution that starts in the five senses.
它触及心灵，然后最终到达头脑。 It reaches the heart and then finally the head.
你意识到那些身体部位也是为了这个。 And you realize that's what those body parts are also for.
这就是婚姻的全部意义。 And that's what marriage is all about.
这就是我的约神学一直支持我的方向。 And that's what my covenant theology has been backing me into.
到那时，我已经开始感觉到水在变热。 And by then, I was already beginning to sense that the water was getting hot.
在我最后一个学期，我记得有这样的经历，好吧，我刚刚面试过。 And my last semester I remember Having this experience, okay, I've just interviewed.
他们给我提供了三一长老会的副牧师职位。 They're offering me a position as the associate pastor at Trinity Presbyterian.
他们要求我每个星期天至少讲道45分钟，带领至少一个，最好是两个圣经学习小组。 They're asking me to preach at least 45 minutes each Sunday, to lead at least one, preferably two, Bible studies.
天主教徒会心脏病发作。 Catholics would have a heart attack.
45分钟的讲道？ 45-minute homily?
哦，是的。 Oh, yeah.
我的意思是，你会正好在我们的轨道上。 I mean, you'd be right on our rails.
我最后一个学期在图书馆的时间都花在阅读教父上，因为在我与雇 用我的教会领袖的面试和谈话中，我意识到他们知道斯普劳尔，他 们知道我所有喜欢的神学家，所以我不能只是起来重复材料。 The time that I spent in the library my last semester was spent reading the church fathers because in my interview and conversation with the leaders of the church that was hiring me, I realized they knew Sproul, they knew all of my favorite theologians, and so I couldn't just get up and recycle material.
所以我去找教父们寻求帮助，寻找那些真正古老而又常新的东西。 And so I went to the fathers for help to find new things that were really kind of ever-ancient, ever-new.
那么，当时在你的圈子里，新教徒有这样做吗，回到早期教父那里？ Now, were Protestants doing that in your circles at the time, going back to the early church fathers?
根本没有。 Not even close.
为什么会这样？ Why is that?
这似乎是一个显而易见的举动，如果我们想知道耶稣的意思， 圣经的意思，当它说这个或那个时，这些我们不同意的事情。 It seems like such an obvious move, that if we want to know what Jesus meant, what the Scripture meant, When it said this or that, these things we disagree on.
最早的基督徒是怎么想的？ What do the earliest Christians think?
我的意思是，那时我们有教会历史，所以我们被期望阅读一些原始资料，我可能读了几百 篇，但你几乎总是接触到的材料，比如在奥古斯丁那里，他听起来像一个原始新教徒。 I mean, back then, we had church history, and so we were expected to read some of the primary sources, and I probably read a few hundred, but you were almost always exposed to the material that, you know, for example, in Augustine, where he sounds like a proto-Protestant.
对。 Right.
你知道，还有自由意志、预定论和其他问题。 You know, and so free will, predestination, and other matters too.
所以这是基于新教选择性原则的选择。 And so it's a selection that is based upon a Protestant principle of selectivity.
你认为天主教徒也会陷入这个陷阱吗？嗯，我的意思是，这个问题的答案是肯定和否定的。 Do you think that Catholics also fall into this trap Well, I mean, that's a yes and no answer.
一方面，是的。 On the one hand, yes.
我们总是寻找那些能加强我们已有信念的来源。 We always look for the sources that will reinforce what we already believe.
但不，我的意思是，在这个意义上，纽曼的名言，你知道，深入历史就是不再是新教徒。 But no, I mean, in this sense that Newman's famous line, you know, to go deep into history is to cease to be Protestant.
进入早期教父，我的意思是，你找不到任何真正新教的走廊或过道。 To go into the early church fathers, I mean, you can't find a corridor or a hallway anywhere that is really and truly Protestant.
这可能不是关于崇拜圣母、敬拜圣餐或祈求圣徒。 It might not be about, you know, adoring the Blessed Virgin or worshiping the Eucharist or invoking the saints.
但你不能走那么久而不遇到这些。 But you can't go that long without encountering that.
而当你遇到它时，最麻烦的不是他们在说，而是他们没有争论。 And when you encounter it, what's the most troublesome is not just that they're saying it, but they're not debating it.
我的意思是，这更多是被假定的而不是被断言的， 它比起一种最终说服其他人的地方信仰更为普遍。 I mean, it's more assumed than asserted, and it's more universal than it is a local belief that eventually convinced everybody else.
我的意思是，从某种意义上说，这就是新教发展的方式，以及为什 么它会变成二三四万个教派，因为我们是美国的长老会，或者是南 方浸信会，我们是地区性的，我们是地方性的，或者其他什么。 I mean, in a sense, that's the way Protestantism grew and why it becomes like 20, 30, 40 thousand denominations, because we were the Presbyterian Church in America, or the Southern Baptist, we're regional, we're local, or whatever.
而在二、三、四世纪时，这是普遍的。 Whereas this was universal by the second, third, and fourth centuries.
你说的那是一个有趣的观点。 That is an interesting point, what you said.
你可以通过他们没有争论的内容几乎同样多地了解教会的信仰。 You can learn almost as much about what the church believed by what they didn't debate.
我以前真的没有想到过这一点。 I hadn't really thought of that before.
我对第三、第四和第五世纪的马利亚崇拜和马利亚教义感到惊 讶，它们在赞美诗中，在祷告中，在讲道中，但没有争论。 I was surprised by the third, fourth, and fifth centuries that Marian devotion, Marian doctrine is in the hymns, it's in the prayers, it's in the homilies, but there's no debate.
我的意思是，耶柔米，但我的意思是，他驳斥赫尔维迪乌斯的方式 是诉诸于马利亚永远是童贞女的普遍信仰以及由此产生的一切。 I mean, Jerome But I mean, the way he refutes Helvidius is by appealing to the universal belief that Mary was ever virgin and all that follows from it.
所以这些事情令人不安，但我实际上只是寻找讲道材料。 So these things were disturbing, but I was really looking only for preaching material.
所以我阅读的系列是早期教父的主日讲道，有四五卷，我会借出来阅读。 And so the series that I was reading from were the Sunday sermons of the early church fathers, four or five volumes that I would sign out, read.
那时我开始意识到他们对圣经的解释比我们更好。 And that's when I began to realize that they interpret the scripture better than we do.
比我最喜欢的教授、传道人和教师更好。 Better than my favorite professors, preachers and teachers.
奥古斯丁所说的新约隐藏在旧约中，旧约在新约中显明，这不仅仅是一个真理。 That Augustine's line that the new is concealed in the old and the old is revealed in the new isn't just a truism.
这就像他们每个星期天都会做的事情。 It was like exactly what they would do every single Sunday.
而不仅仅是一两段，几分钟的时间。 And not just for a paragraph or two for a couple of minutes.
这通常塑造了他们的讲道。 It usually shaped their sermons.
他们显然不仅仅是在读新约中他们最喜欢的段落。 And they were obviously reading not just their favorite passages from the New Testament.
他们以一种我知道适用于古代以色列圣殿会堂的选读方式通读圣经。 They were reading through the scriptures in a kind of lectionary style that I knew was applicable to the synagogue In the temple in the ancient Israel.
但这不是我们所做的。 But it was not what we did.
所以，我记得在我自己的日记中编写了一系列从 安布罗斯那里学到的耶稣和摩西之间的平行。 And so, I remember compiling in my own journal a series of parallels between Jesus and Moses that I picked up from Ambrose.
给我们一些例子。 Give us some of those.
有些人在观看，他们完全不熟悉可能存在的任何平行。 There are people who are watching and they're completely unfamiliar that there could be any parallels.
所以预表论的一个例子是将新约中的耶稣与旧约中的摩西进行比较。 So an example of typology would be to compare Jesus in the New to Moses in the Old.
所以，神终于派遣救主来拯救他的子民，但救主一出生就需要被拯救。 So, God sends the Savior at long last to save his people, but as soon as the Savior is born, the Savior needed to be saved.
因为希律的暴政法令针对婴儿耶稣和伯利恒所有的希伯来男孩。 Because of Herod's tyrannical decree that targeted baby Jesus and all of the Hebrew male children in Bethlehem.
好吧，安布罗斯，还有奥古斯丁和其他人只是表明，这不是第一轮。 Well, Ambrose and, again, Augustine and others just showed that, well, that's not the first round.
第一轮是摩西。 Round one was with Moses.
神派遣拯救者来拯救他的子民，但拯救者需要被拯救，因为这个名叫法 老的暴君的帝国法令不仅针对婴儿摩西，还针对所有的希伯来男孩。 God sent the deliverer to deliver his people, but the deliverer needed to be delivered because of the imperial decree of this tyrant named Pharaoh who targeted not only the baby Moses but all of the Hebrew male children.
所以你看到神如何通过一个名叫约瑟的人拯救救主。 And so you see how God saves the Savior through a man named Joseph.
但你也在旧约中找到约瑟，他像圣约瑟一样，是雅各的儿子。 But you also find Joseph in the Old Testament, where he, like Saint Joseph, is the son of Jacob.
你知道，他是亚伯拉罕的曾孙，约瑟在马太福音第 一章中是亚伯拉罕的后裔。但他也被描述为义人。 You know, he's the great-grandson of Abraham, and Joseph is in the line of Abraham for Matthew, in chapter 1. But he's also described as righteous.
他也是一个做梦者，他也带领以色列的圣家族，以色列的家族，去埃及避难。 He's also a dreamer, and he also took the Holy Family of Israel, the family of Israel, down to Egypt for safety, you know.
所以这些平行对早期教父来说是如此明显。 So these parallels were so obvious to the early church fathers.
我上过关于旧约和新约书籍的研究生研讨会，但从来没有那种旧约和新约的相互渗透。 I had taken graduate seminars on Old Testament books and New, but there was never that kind of interpenetration of the Old and the New.
再说一次，安布罗斯才刚刚开始。 And again, Ambrose is just getting started.
所以你看到圣家族如何从埃及出来。 So you see how the Holy Family comes out of Egypt.
耶稣经过约旦河的水，然后进入旷野禁食四十天。 Jesus passes through the water of the Jordan, and he goes out into the desert to fast for 40 days.
同样地，你回去看，摩西带领以色列人出埃及，经过红海的水，进入旷野。 And then likewise, you go back and Moses leads Israel out of Egypt through the water of the Red Sea, where they go into the desert.
他禁食四十昼夜，在此期间以色列人经历试探。 And he fasts for 40 days and 40 nights during which time Israel undergoes the temptations.
耶稣通过了以色列失败的试验，但三次都通过了。 Jesus passed the tests that Israel failed, but all three times.
他不仅仅引用旧约。 He didn't just quote the Old Testament.
魔鬼在其中一个例子中也这样做。 The devil does that in one of the instances.
但他引用了申命记六到八章。你回去看，父亲向我展示了那正是耶稣 所在的地方，那是摩西向以色列人解释的地方：你们为什么失败？ But he quotes from Deuteronomy 6 through 8. You go back and the Father showed me that that's precisely where Jesus, that's where Moses had explained to the Israelites Why did you fail?
因为人活着不是单靠食物。 Because man doesn't live by bread alone.
是的，这些平行，你知道，还有更多。 Yeah, and these parallels, you know, and there were more.
所以在禁食四十天后，他在西奈山得到律法，交给十二支派， 然后在耶稣禁食四十天并通过试验后，他发表了登山宝训。 So that after fasting for 40 days, he gets the law on Mount Sinai, he gives it to the 12 tribes, and then after Jesus' 40-day fast and passing the tests, he gives the Sermon on the Mount.
你知道，他说，我来不是要废掉律法，而是要成全律法和先知。 You know, and he says, I've not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law and the prophets.
所以摩西颁布律法，但这还不够，所以他从十二支派中选择了十二个首领来帮助他们治理。 And so Moses gives the law, but it's not enough, so he chooses From the twelve tribes, the twelve princes who will help them govern.
耶稣发表了登山宝训。 Jesus gives the Sermon on the Mount.
这是新约的律法，不是废掉而是成全旧约。 It's the law of the New Covenant, not abolishing but fulfilling the Old.
接下来他做的就是选择十二个门徒。 The next thing he does is to choose the twelve disciples.
摩西发现他需要更多的人，所以他任命了七十个其他人，并用圣灵膏抹他们。 Well, Moses found he needed more, so he appoints seventy other men and he anoints them with the Spirit.
耶稣说，庄稼多，工人少，所以他任命了七十个其他门徒并膏抹他们。 Jesus says the harvest is plentiful, the labors are few, so he appoints seventy other disciples and anoints them.
摩西上山与主一起祷告一天。 Moses goes up the mountain to spend a day in prayer with the Lord.
他带着亚伦、拿答和亚比户。 He takes Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu.
耶稣上山祷告一天。 Jesus goes up the mountain to spend a day in prayer.
他带着彼得、雅各和约翰。 He takes Peter, James, and John.
耶稣的变像就像摩西的变像一样发生。 And the transfiguration occurs to Jesus just like it did to Moses.
太神奇了！ Crazy!
当他的脸发光时，他们就像，你得戴上面纱。 When his face is aglow, they're like, you've got to put on a veil.
我们甚至不能看你的面容。 We can't even look in your countenance.
然后在变像山上，出现的不是别人，正是摩西和以利亚。 And then on the Mount of Transfiguration, who should appear but Moses and Elijah.
律法和先知。 The Law and the Prophets.
摩西颁布了律法。 Moses gave the Law.
以利亚是以色列最伟大的先知。 Elijah was the greatest of Israel's prophets.
他们也恰好像我们的主一样经历了四十天的禁食。 They also happened to survive a 40-day fast like our Lord.
但他们谈论的内容，安布罗斯在路加福音9章31 节指出，是耶稣的离世，即将在耶路撒冷发生。 But what they're talking about, Ambrose points out in Luke 9.31, is Jesus' departure, which was soon to take place in Jerusalem.
只是希腊语中“离世”这个词是exodon。 Only the word for departure in the Greek is exodon.
所以这里是耶稣在对摩西谈论一个新的出埃及记，而摩西正是出埃及记的代表。 And so here is Jesus talking about a new exodus to Moses, who's none other than Mr. Exodus himself.
如果他们愿意比较一下笔记，安布罗斯指出，奥古斯丁也是如此，你知道，摩西行了一些 神迹，比如第一个是把水变成血，耶稣的第一个神迹是把水变成酒，你知道，摩西也在执 行，嗯，我是说，他在医治麻风病人，他还做了一些其他的事情，他被领袖们反对和迫害 ，你知道，耶稣经历了所有这些平行的经历，然后，当然，逾越节是第十个神迹，耶稣当 然要创造一个新的逾越节，这就是安布罗斯吸引他会众注意的地方，因为那就是圣餐。 If they had bothered to compare notes, Ambrose points out, and Augustine too, where, you know, Moses performed some signs, you know, the first turning water into blood, the first of Jesus' signs is turning water into wine, you know, Moses is also executing the, well, I mean, he's healing lepers, he's also, what are some of these other, he's opposed by the leaders and persecuted, and, you know, and Jesus undergoes all of these parallel experiences And then, of course, the Passover is the tenth sign, and Jesus, of course, is going to create a new Passover, which is what Ambrose fastened his congregation's attention to, because that's the Eucharist.
那是旧约的成全。 That's the fulfillment of the Old.
那是耶稣建立新约的地方。 That's where Jesus establishes the New.
我可以想象你在读这些，因为，当然，那时没有互联网，对吧？ I can just imagine you reading this, because, of course, the Internet doesn't exist, right?
你只是在读这些可能没有被你其他新教朋友很好地阅读过的书。 You're just reading these books that may not have been very well read by other Protestant friends of yours.
你是不是有点环顾四周，想知道有没有人知道这些？ Are you sort of looking around, being like, does anybody know about this?
对。 Right.
你知道，我们在神学院的最后一年一直在辩论。 You know, we had been debating my last year in seminary.
我们都参与了，我的教授和我的几个同学，参与了国际圣经无误委员会。 We were all involved, my professor and a few of my classmates, in the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy.
所以我们对圣经有很高的看法。 So we had a high view of Scripture.
但有一个辩论正在分裂所有这些学者、教师和学生。 But there was a debate that was dividing all of these scholars and teachers and students.
我们敢重复新约作者的诠释学吗？ Dare we repeat the hermeneutic of the New Testament writers?
换句话说，我们能否像新约作者那样阅读旧约。 In other words, can we possibly read the Old Testament The way that the New Testament writers did.
因为他们的做法让人想起早期教父，他们只是简单地模仿他们的榜样。 Because they did it in a way that was reminiscent of the early church fathers who were just simply imitating their example.
但我们从未那样做过。 But we never did it that way.
而绝大多数新教福音派学者，甚至是叙述学家，如理查德·朗内克 都会说，不，他们有圣灵，他们是使徒，他们有一种解释的许可。 And the vast majority of Protestant evangelical scholars, even the narratists, like Richard Longnecker would say, no, they had the Holy Spirit, they were apostles, they had a kind of interpretive license.
他们甚至可以误解圣经，但无论如何得出正确的教义。 They could even misinterpret the scriptures, but come up with the right teachings anyway.
而少数派报告，一小部分新教徒说，当然，你知道，保罗 没有说像我效法基督那样效法我，除了在解释旧约时。 Whereas the minority report, A small number of Protestants who said, of course, you know, Paul didn't say imitate me as I imitate Christ, except when it comes to interpreting the Old Testament.
那是我一个人可以做我所做的事情的地方，你知道。 That's where I alone get to do what I do, you know.
所以只是模仿这样教导圣经的基督，模仿教导他会众的保罗，我仍在吸收这些。 And so just imitating Christ who taught the scriptures this way, imitating Paul who taught his congregations, I'm still absorbing this.
我大约研究教父七八周，当我卸下U-Haul时，我必须讲我的第一篇道，我正在阅读福 音书，之后，在前三四周，人们在离开时在后面握着我的手，说，你是从哪里想到这些的？ I'm about seven or eight weeks into the study of the Fathers, when I unpack the U-Haul, I have to preach my first sermon, and I'm going through the Gospels, and afterwards, for the first three or four weeks, people are in the back shaking my hand as they're leaving, saying, where did you come up with this?
哦，通过认真个人研究和学习，很多智力上的主动性。 Oh, through serious personal research and study, a lot of intellectual initiative.
你知道，我应该一直在讲台后面使用引号，因为我在掠夺教父的资料，几个月后 我开始让他们知道这一点，并邀请他们与我一起阅读，其中一些人开始走上一条 我们不知道确切会通向何处的道路，但不到两年我就通过研究和祷告陷入了信仰 危机，因为我还发现除了这些古代教父之外 字幕由Amara.org提供 You know, I should have been using quotation marks behind the pulpit the whole time, because I was plundering the patristic sources and after a few months I began to let them in on that and invite them to read it with me and a number of them began going down a trail which we wouldn't know exactly where it would lead but in less than two years I had studied and prayed myself into a crisis of faith because I also discovered besides these ancient fathers Subtitles by the Amara.org
社区 你在早期教父中发现的同样的圣经神学方法。 community The same way of doing theology, biblically, that you found in the early church fathers.
你现在作为新教徒，作为这个教会的牧师在阅读拉辛格。 You're reading Ratzinger as a Protestant now, as a pastor of this church.
没错。 That's right.
那是什么感觉？ What was that like?
因为你读了这本关于避孕的书，你改变了对那件事的 看法，但正如你所说，坏钟每天也有两次是对的。 Because you've read this book about contraception, you've changed your mind on that, but as you say, a broken clock is still right twice a day.
你是如何开始阅读天主教资料的？ How did you start reading Catholic sources?
作为一个反天主教的人，这对你来说是什么感觉？ What was that like for you, as someone who was anti-Catholic?
是的，我的意思是，这很难总结。 Yeah, I mean, it's hard to summarize it.
那时甚至很难解释，但感觉他们不仅仅是在避孕上是对的。 It was even hard to explain it then, but the sense that they're not just right on contraception.
他们不仅仅是在一起阅读旧约和新约上是对的。 They're not just right on reading the old and the new together.
他们将其应用于圣餐。 They're applying that to the Eucharist.
我们称之为主的晚餐。 We call it the Lord's Supper.
这只是一顿饭。 It's just a meal.
但等一下。 But wait a minute.
对他们来说，普遍认为这是一个祭献。 For them, universally, it was a sacrifice.
如果这是一个祭献会更有意义，因为这是新约的逾越节。 It would make more sense if it was a sacrifice because it's the Passover of the New Covenant.
但它怎么能是一个祭献呢？ But how can it be a sacrifice?
所以这些在我脑海中浮现的问题正在被教父的资料解答。 So these questions that were rising in my mind were being answered by the patristic sources.
所以我作为牧师做的第一件事就是实施每周的圣餐。 And so the first thing I did as a pastor was to implement weekly communion.
我们一年做四次。 We did it four times a year.
他们认为，那只是仪式主义。 And they thought, well, that's just ritualism.
我说，那是约的更新。 And I said, well, it's the renewal of the covenant.
所以我对我的长老们说，你们知道，形成了会众的一次 会议，你们知道，这是更新你们婚姻之约的礼仪对应。 So I said to my elders, you know, who formed a session of the congregation, you know, it is the liturgical counterpart to renewing your marriage covenant.
你知道，一年四次，否则，熟悉会滋生轻视。 You know, and so four times a year otherwise, you know, familiarity breeds contempt.
这只是仪式主义。 It's just ritualism.
所以我最终得到了全票通过。 And so I got a unanimous vote eventually.
让我们每周都做。 Let's do it weekly.
所以当我们改为每周的圣餐时，这确实改变了我们作为会众体验神的道的方式。 And so when we change to weekly communions, It really changed the way we were experiencing God's Word as a congregation.
圣事也是如此。 The sacraments, too.
所以，我的意思是，我在说我们是改革的新教天主教 徒，罗马天主教徒错了，但他们仍然有很多是对的。 And so, I mean, I was saying that we are reformed Protestant Catholics, that the Roman Catholics get it wrong, but there's still so much that they have right.
我们不能再只是把这当作三段论。 We can no longer just make this the syllogism.
如果是罗马的，那就是错的。 If it's Roman, it's wrong.
现在我们必须看看他们是否偶尔是对的，因为瞎猪也能找到橡子。 Now we've got to look and see if they might be right every once in a while, because the blind hog gets the acorn.
再一次…… And again...
但是谁把拉辛格放在你手里？ But who put Ratzinger in your hand?
你是怎么遇到他的？ How did you end up with him?
嗯，我过去和现在都花了很多时间在旧书店里。 Well, I spent a lot of time in used bookstores, then and now.
我的意思是，这就像第二个家。 I mean, it's like a second home.
我喜欢它。 I love it.
我喜欢这些书店。 I love these bookstores.
你会迷失在其中。 You get lost in there.
你知道，当我们在读加里·斯莫尔迪的《爱的语 言》这本书时，我们了解了我们所有的孩子。 You know, when we were reading Gary Smaldy's book, The Languages of Love, we figured out all of our kids.
我们了解了妈妈，但他们一直不了解爸爸，直到我的女儿，你知道，爱的语言是书。 We figured out Mom, but they couldn't figure out Dad until My daughter, you know, the love language is books.
那是我的爱的语言。 That's my love language.
但我会花很多时间在这些书店里。 But I would spend a lot of time in these bookstores.
我找到了唐雅·卢的《圣经与礼仪：从影子到现实》。 And I had found Donya Lou's The Bible and the Liturgy from Shadow to Reality.
我读了卢·巴克的书。 I read the Lou Buck.
于是我偶然发现了一箱书，只要一角钱。 And so I stumbled upon, it was a box of books for a dime.
里面有一本破旧的拉辛格的《基督教导论》。 And there was a battered copy of Introduction to Christianity by Ratzinger.
我不知道他是谁。 I didn't know who he was.
是西伯里出版社出版的，所以可能是循道宗或英国圣公会的。 Seabury published it, so it might be Methodist or Episcopalian.
我在读它，读了三四十页，仍然不明显他是天主教徒。 I'm reading it, and 30 or 40 pages, it still isn't obvious that he's Catholic.
我就想，这个人的思维方式和我一样，只是更好。 And I'm like, this guy thinks like me, only more and better.
这是约，这是相交，这是家庭，这是神他的父亲。 It's the covenant, it is communion, it is family, it is God his Father.
然后我继续读下去，我就想，我越来越深入，麻烦也越来越大。 And then I kept reading, and I'm like, I'm getting deeper and deeper and more in trouble.
他重新阐述了救赎论，不再是圣父俯视挂在十字架上的耶稣，他看不到他心爱的儿子，只 能看到我们的罪，因此他只是在承受圣父发泄的愤怒，你知道，那是我们真正应得的。 And he recasts soteriology so that it's no longer the case that God the Father is looking down on Jesus, hanging on the cross, And he can't see his beloved son, he can only see our sin, and so he's only bearing the wrath that is being vented by the Father, you know, that was really deserved by us.
这一直困扰着我。 And that always bothered me.
我一直为此辩护，因为那是根据路德和加尔文的福音。 I always defended it, because that was the gospel according to Luther and Calvin.
我想，对于保罗来说，拉辛格通过耶稣的受难以一种不是替代性 的，而是代表性的方式解释了赎罪的深层逻辑，正如他所说。 And I thought, for Paul, and Ratzinger was explaining the deep logic of the atonement through Jesus' suffering in a way that was not substitutionary, but representative, as he put it.
我就想，是的，那是新的亚当。 And I'm like, yeah, that's the new Adam.
所以，到现在，我意识到我的正直要求我从教会辞职。 And so, by now, I realize that my integrity requires me to resign from the church.
我还在当地的长老会神学院任教。 I'd also been teaching at a local Presbyterian seminary.
那么，你为什么必须辞职？ Now, why did you have to resign?
我的意思是，为什么你不能只采用某些元素？ I mean, why couldn't you just adopt certain elements?
是的，我的意思是，我是如此灵活。 Yeah, I mean, I was so flexible.
我非常适应。 I was so adaptable.
我在将每个元素适应新教世界，你知道，想着如果我在前 面并且正在向小写的天主教事物靠近，我可以接受它们。 I was adapting every element to the Protestant world, you know, thinking if I'm out in front and I am moving towards small-c Catholic things, I can take them.
所以我做到了。 And so I did.
周复一周，月复一月，但当我接近第一年及以后时，我开始意识到我在对他们隐瞒秘密。 Week after week, for months and months, but as I approached my first year and beyond, I began to realize I am hiding secrets from them.
你知道那句谚语，你不保守秘密，秘密会束缚你。 And you know the adage, you don't keep secrets, secrets keep you.
所以我也听到了掌声，你知道，哦，你的教学，你的讲道是如此好。 And so I was also hearing applause, you know, oh, your teaching, your preaching is so good.
所以我被邀请在当地的长老会神学院教授一些课程。 So I was invited to teach some courses at the local Presbyterian seminary.
那些课程进行得比讲道还要好。 And those went even better than the sermons.
所以他们邀请我考虑成为神学院的院长。 And so they invited me to consider being the dean of the seminary.
所以有一天我和董事会主席共进午餐，想向他展示，我没有博士学位。 So I met with the chairman of the board one day for lunch to kind of show him, I don't have my doctorate.
这完全没有道理。 This makes no sense at all.
他说，我们已经讨论过了。 And he said, we've discussed it.
我们投票了。 We voted.
这是全票通过的。 It's unanimous.
我们想给你提供院长的职位。 We want to offer you the job to be the dean.
你可以教授你想要的课程，重新设计课程。 You could teach the courses you want, redesign the curriculum.
我就想，我需要一个博士学位。 I'm like, I would need a doctorate.
好吧，我们会支付费用。 Well, we'll pay for that.
你会去天主教大学。就在那一刻，我意识到好吧，我在两面三刀。 You'll go to Catholic U. And it was at that moment I realized Okay, I'm being duplicitous.
我对史蒂夫说，我不能告诉你为什么。 And I said to Steve, I can't tell you why.
我必须说不，但我必须说不。 I must say no, but I must say no.
哦，我的天哪，因为这一定是你的梦想工作。 Oh my goodness, because this must have been your dream job.
这是我以为我可能在50岁时会有的终生梦想，而我现在还不到30岁，甚至还不到。 It was the dream of a lifetime that I thought I might have when I'm 50, and I'm barely 30 at this point, not even.
于是我回家。 And so I go home.
金伯利一直在为我禁食祷告，以为我可能会被解雇。 Kimberly has been fasting and praying for me, thinking that I might be fired.
好妻子。 Good wife.
是的。 Yeah.
当我告诉她他给我提供了什么时，她欣喜若狂。 And when I told her what he offered me, she was jubilant.
当我告诉她我对他说了什么时，我以为她要打我。 When I told her what I said to him, I thought she was going to slug me.
然后她问我，你为什么会说不？ And then she asked me, why would you say no?
我唯一能说的，只是侧面表达出来的，就是有一天我将不得不站 在我们的主面前，为我教导他为之而死的人们的内容作出交代。 And all I could say, it just came out sideways, was someday I'm going to have to stand before our Lord and give an account for what I taught the people he died for.
我曾经知道那是什么。 And I used to know what it was.
现在我不太确定。 Now I'm not so sure.
我不能躲在我最喜欢的教授后面说，主啊，我只是教了他们教我的东西。 And I will not be able to hide behind my favorite professors and say, Lord, I just taught what I heard them teach me.
而在这一点上，我不知道。 And at this point, I don't know.
于是她拥抱了我。 And so she hugged me.
她说，哦，我尊重你的正直。 And she said, oh, I respect your integrity.
我在想，好吧，那不能让我们有饭吃，你知道，因为我能感觉到这是我作为神学院教授 的职业生涯的终结，永远不会成为院长，也不会成为一个越来越兴奋的会众的牧师。 And I'm thinking, well, that will not put food on the table, you know, because I could sense that this was the end of my career as a seminary professor, never becoming a dean, as a pastor as well for a growing congregation that was getting more and more excited.
于是她问我，这意味着什么？ And so she asked me, what does this mean?
我就说，我必须辞职。 I'm like, I'm going to have to resign.
她看着我，好像在说，好吧，正直就到此为止了。 And she looked at me like, OK, so much for integrity.
我的意思是，好吧，你必须这样做，但我们该怎么办，你知道吗？ I mean, OK, you have to, but what are we going to do, you know?
这里有个问题，因为有时我们可能会误认为新教徒不相信真实临在，而我们是相信的。 Just a question here, because sometimes we can mischaracterize Protestants as not believing in the real presence, whereas we do.
显然，新教或新教主义是一个广泛的范围。 Obviously Protestantism or Protestantisms is a broad range.
那么为什么在这一点上如此害怕呢？ So why get so scared at this point?
为什么不只是想，好吧，天主教有一些真实的信仰，但也有一 些新教教派持有这些信仰，所以我只需要找到那些新教教派。 Why not just think, well, Catholicism has some true beliefs, But there are Protestant denominations that also hold those beliefs, so I just need to find the Protestant denominations.
没错。 That's right.
所以我试图向我自己、我的神学院学生和我的会众证明，天主教和新 教之间的重叠不是5或10，而是更像45、50、60、65、7 0%。当我们进行圣餐，每周的圣餐时，我们仍然称之为主的晚餐。 So I was trying to prove to myself, to my seminarians, and to my parishioners that the overlap between Catholic and Protestant is not 5 or 10, but more like 45, 50, 60, 65, 70%. And when we were doing the communion, the weekly communion, we were still calling it the Lord's Supper.
我会称之为圣餐，因为早期教父是这样做的。 I would refer to it as the Eucharist, because the early church fathers did.
但当我解释真实临在时，我实际上可以引用加尔文。 But when I would explain real presence, I could actually quote Calvin.
我用过华莱士的书《加尔文与圣事》作为我教授神学院圣事课程的教材。 And I'd used Wallace's book, Calvin and the Sacraments, as my text for teaching the seminary course on the sacraments.
但每当涉及到加尔文解释他所说的真实临在时，他总是默认为属灵临在。 But whenever it came to Calvin explaining what he means by real presence, he would always default to spiritual presence.
但这是现实的临在。 But it's real presence.
我在想，好吧，那是什么意思？ And I'm thinking, OK, what does that mean?
你如何具体化它？ How do you flesh it out?
我的意思是，没有双关语的意思。 I mean, no pun intended.
但我的意思是，每平方英寸有更多的圣灵吗？ But I mean, is there more Holy Spirit packed per square inch?
在那里，在圣餐中，然后是其他地方。 There, at the Eucharist, then everywhere else.
你知道，当早期教父的资料一致认为这是他的身体、他的血、 灵魂和神性时，将真实临在简化为属灵临在是没有意义的。 You know, it just doesn't make sense to reduce real presence to spiritual presence when the early patristic sources are unanimous about it being his body, his blood, soul, and divinity.
他的复活的身体，但仍然是他的身体。 His resurrected body, but his body.
于是我意识到，你知道，你只能玩到某个程度，现在你只是在玩游戏。 And so I realized, you know, you could only play that game up to a point, and now you're just playing games.
事实上，我感觉，我甚至告诉金伯利，我觉得我在玩教会。 In fact, I felt like, I even told Kimberly, I feel like I'm playing church.
我假装能够制作圣餐，而从圣经和教父的角度来看，很明 显我在玩教会，我并没有真正制作他们所认定的圣餐。 I am pretending to be able to confect the Eucharist when it's obvious from Scripture and the Fathers that I am playing church, that I am not really confecting what they would have identified as the Eucharist.
没有通过主教的按手礼。 There's no laying out of hands through the bishop.
这些长老用正统长老会的黑皮书按手在我身上。 These elders have laid their hands upon me using the Orthodox Presbyterian Church black book.
但这开始感觉像是对真正天主教信仰的近似伪造。 But it just began to feel like a close counterfeit to the real Catholic faith.
于是，我告诉金伯利，我要去寻找一个教会，也许是英国圣公会， 可能是东正教，所以我开始研究东正教和俄罗斯东正教教会等等。 And so, you know, I told Kimberly, I'm going to go in search of a church Episcopalian perhaps, probably Orthodox, so I began to look at the Eastern and the Russian Orthodox churches and all.
我离开时，我不能详细说这个，我保证，但我离开时确信反对添加f ilioque的论点，反对filioque为真的论点，fil ioque条款就是尼西亚信经中圣灵从圣父和圣子而出的那部分。 And I came away, I can't go into this, I promise, but I came away convinced that the arguments against the filioque being added, the arguments against the filioque being true, the filioque clause is just that part of the Nicene Creed where the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
这实际上是东西方分裂的一种条款，所以东正教否认它。 And this is really a kind of article of division for East and West, and so the Orthodox deny it.
在东方礼教会中，你不否认它，但你不必宣认它。 And in the Eastern Rite churches, you don't deny it, but you don't have to profess it.
于是我意识到，好吧，你知道，我不能去东正教，尽管他 们对涵盖天地的礼仪的掌握与我在教父中发现的相符。 And so I realized, okay, you know, I'm not going to be able to go Orthodox, even though their grasp of the liturgy encompassing heaven and earth matches what I'm finding in the Fathers.
但在西方，耶柔米和其他人也是如此。 But so did Jerome and others as well in the West.
所以在这一点上，我只是在旷野中。 So at this point, I'm just in the desert.
金伯利和我搬回了我们第一次相遇并相爱的大学城。 Kimberly and I moved back to the college town where we first met and fell in love.
我正在申请克罗格的工作，当地的杂货店，填写申请成为一个包装工。 I am applying for a job at Kroger's, the local grocery store, filling out an application to be a box boy.
我只是需要赚点钱。 I just have to make some money.
于是我看到了我们俩毕业的大学的校长。 And so I see the president of the college where both of us had graduated.
他问我在做什么。 He asked me what I'm doing.
哦，我就在这里，你知道，在杂货店。 Oh, I'm just here, you know, at the grocery store.
他说，你知道，我听说你回到镇上了。 And he says, you know, I heard you were back in town.
我有一个空缺。 I've got an opening.
你会考虑申请成为校长助理吗？ Would you consider applying to be the assistant to the president?
这意味着筹款，兼职教学。 It would mean fundraising, part-time teaching.
我就想，求你了，扭我的胳膊吧。 And I'm like, twist my arm, please.
我很愿意。 I would love to.
于是，在24小时内，我填写了克罗格杂货店包装工的申请，结果做了两年的校长助理。 And so, within a 24-hour period, I filled out the application to be a box boy at Kroger's grocery store and ended up being, for two years, the assistant to the president.
我在两个长老会教堂找了一份兼职工作，做青年事工，我 认为这是安全的，因为我不会涉及教义，我不会讲道。 I got a part-time job at the two Presbyterian churches Doing youth ministry, which I thought was safe because I wouldn't be going into doctrine, I wouldn't be doing sermons.
尽管我最终教他们所有关于约作为家庭的知识，指向教会，这是国际的和公教会的。 Although I ended up teaching them all about the covenant as family, pointing to the church, which is international and Catholic.
而且，你知道，我教的20个高中生中大约有14或15个在接下来的1 0或15年里成为了天主教徒，这使我在那些会众中成为不受欢迎的人。 And, you know, so I think about 14 or 15 out of the 20 high school kids I was teaching ended up becoming Catholics within the next 10 or 15 years, which made me persona non grata at those congregations.
两年后，我清楚地意识到我必须深入研究这个博士项目，以真正确定我知道自己在做什么。 And after two years, it became clear to me that I had to dive into this for a doctoral program to really make certain that I knew what I was doing.
于是，金伯利勉强同意我们可以搬到密尔沃基的马凯特，马凯特给我提供了全额奖学金。 And so, reluctantly, Kimberly agreed that we could move to Marquette, Milwaukee, where Marquette had offered me a full ride, a scholarship.
我也获得了圣母大学的全额奖学金。 And I'd gotten to offer a full scholarship at Notre Dame as well.
他们没有我在马凯特找到的人，基思神父，他是 约神学的专家，还有我非常喜欢的其他资料。 They didn't have the people that I found at Marquette, Father Keith, who was an expert on covenant theology, and this other material that I loved so much.
所以在85年夏天，我们从宾夕法尼亚州的格罗夫城搬到了密尔沃基，但在此之前， 她从我那里提取了一个承诺，我会等待至少五年 字幕由Amara.org提供 So that summer of 85, we moved out to Milwaukee from Grove City, Pennsylvania, but not before she had extracted a pledge from me that I would wait at least five years Subtitles by the Amara.org
社区 我想知道，在弥撒中是否还有任何遗留的东西？ community I wondered, what if any of that is left in a Mass?
我从未参加过弥撒，我从未想去参加弥撒，但我只 是想知道，是否有任何残留，任何剩余的元素？ I never got to a Mass, I never wanted to go to a Mass, but I just wondered, is there any residue, any remaining element?
于是我发现，在一个工作日中午有一场弥撒在地 下室的小教堂举行，这对我来说听起来很安全。 And so I found out that there was a Mass on a weekday at noon in a basement chapel that just sounded safe to me.
所以我跳过午餐，带着我的笔记本和圣经去了那里。这很神奇， 因为大多数人去参加圣弥撒，后来他们听说圣殉道者游斯丁和他 所说的，他们会想，哦，哇，那就像弥撒，而你是反过来的。 So I skipped lunch and went there with my notebook, my Bible, That's amazing because most people go to Holy Mass and later on down the line they hear about St. Justin Martyr and what he had to say and they're like, oh wow, that's just like, Mass, whereas you had it in reverse.
你先读了它，然后去寻找它。 You read it and then went looking for it.
对于那些不熟悉的人，也许可以快速与我们分享游斯丁所说的。 For those who aren't familiar with it, maybe quickly share with us what Justin said.
《公教会教理》有一段。 The Catechism has a paragraph.
我不记得确切的数字，但我想在开幕礼、忏悔礼、祷 告、读经和讲道方面有九到十个元素，然后是圣餐。 I don't remember the exact number, but I think there are nine or ten elements in terms of the opening rite, the penitential rite, the prayers, the reading of the Scriptures, and the preaching as well, and then the Eucharist.
我漏掉了一些元素，但我有它们。 I'm missing a few of the elements, but I had them.
我在博士研讨会上读过它们，所以每个元素都排列好，清单上的每个 部分都勾选完毕，这为我的顿悟时刻做了准备，因为我没有跪下。 I had been reading them in a doctoral seminar And so to have each and every element line up, every single part of the checklist checked off, it was prepping me for the Eureka moment because I'm not kneeling.
我没有站着。 I wasn't standing.
我只是坐着，记下观察。 I was just sitting, jotting observations.
当我第一次听到祝圣的话语时，我的意思是，当他一说完那句话， 你知道，拿着这个吃，这是我的身体，我的意思是，我直视前方。 And when I heard the words of consecration for the first time in my life, and I mean, as soon as he finished that line, you know, take this and eat of this as my body, I mean, I'm looking straight ahead.
感觉我所有的疑虑都从我的头脑和心中流走。 And feeling like all of my doubt is just draining out of my head, my heart.
我就想，我的主，我的神，那是你。 And I'm like, my Lord and my God, that is you.
我感觉像多疑的托马斯，觉得那不是面包。 And I felt like Downing Thomas, like that is not bread.
那是你的身体。 That is your body.
这里发生了什么？ What's going on here?
然后当他祝圣圣杯时，我发现自己真的在为这珍贵的血而流口水。 And then when he consecrated the chalice, I found myself literally drooling with this holy thirst for the precious blood.
我试图理清这些想法，这些情感，然后每个人都开始吟唱，除去世人罪孽的神的羔羊。 And I'm trying to sift through these thoughts, these emotions, and then everybody began to chant, Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
当他们说了三遍时，他们跪下，他举起圣体，说，看哪，神的羔羊。 By the time they said it three times, they dropped to their knees, and he elevated the host, and he says, Behold the Lamb of God.
突然间我有了这个顿悟时刻，一个啊哈，你知道，我翻到圣经的后面，看启示 录，我知道从翻译全部22章中，神的羔羊是那里用来称呼耶稣的头衔，比所 有其他头衔加在一起还多，没有其他新约作者使用神的羔羊的技术礼仪术语。 Suddenly I have this eureka moment, an aha, you know, I'm going to the back of the Bible, looking at the book of Revelation, where I knew from translating all 22 chapters that Lamb of God is the title used for Jesus there more than all of the other titles put together, and no other New Testament writer uses the technical liturgical term for the Lamb of God.
所以我看到了，我看到了圣哉，圣哉，圣哉，荣耀，阿门，哈利路亚，我在 约翰对天上异象的描述中看到了这个包括天使和圣徒的礼仪，当每个人从领 受圣餐回来时，他们跪下，沉默，感谢，我低头，我翻了大约15页，我第 一次在启示录中看到了我第一次在弥撒中看到的东西，我就想，我在哪里？ And so I'm seeing it, and I'm seeing holy, holy, holy, the glory, the amen, the alleluia, and I'm seeing in John's description of the heavenly vision, this liturgy that includes the angels and the saints, by the time everybody's back from having received Holy Communion, they're kneeling, silence, giving thanks, I'm looking down, I've flipped through about 15 pages, and I'm seeing for the first time, in the apocalypse, What I just saw for the first time in the Mass, and I'm like, where have I been?
你知道，这只是一个地下室的小教堂，一个工作日的弥撒，但这是天使和圣徒的天上敬拜。 You know, this is just a basement chapel, a weekday Mass, but it's the heavenly worship of the angels and the saints.
所以每个人在祝福后离开。 And so everybody leaves after the benediction.
一个小时后，我还没有动。 An hour later, I haven't budged.
我坐在那里有些震惊，试图弄清楚，好吧，我下楼去地下室的小教堂参加周一的弥撒。 I'm sitting there somewhat stunned, trying to figure out, okay, I went downstairs to a basement chapel for a Monday Mass.
我穿过衣柜到了纳尼亚。 I went through the wardrobe to Narnia.
是的，我的意思是，我，举起你们的心，我们把它们举向主。 Yeah, I mean, I, lift up your hearts, we lift them up to the Lord.
我被提升到天堂。 I was lifted up to heaven.
歌曲、祷告、祭献和羔羊，这是完美的结合。 The songs, the prayers, the sacrifice, and the lamb, it was a perfect match.
我在图书馆度过了余下的下午。 I spent the rest of the afternoon in the library.
我借了大约十几本书。 I checked out about a dozen books.
我本打算告诉金伯利，但我想还是算了。 I was going to tell Kimberly, but I thought better of it.
于是那天晚上我读了《启示录》，有希腊文和英文翻译。 And so I read the Book of Revelation that night, with the Greek there and the English translation.
到凌晨三点左右，我合上了书。 And by around 3 a.m., I closed the books.
我想，你知道，金伯利是个夜猫子。 I thought, you know, Kimberly's a night owl.
如果她还醒着，她应该得到一个解释。 If she's still awake, she deserves an explanation.
她已经熟睡。 She was fast asleep.
所以我没有告诉她，第二天我又去了，在接下来的两周里，我每天都参加 弥撒，马特，我得告诉你，这感觉就像十年级时，我发现自己在读圣经， 爱上了我们的主，福音书的页面，尤其是保罗，只是现在是圣餐，所以我 早早到达，之后留下，我跪在圣体柜前，我意识到，我必须告诉她。 So I didn't tell her, and I went back the next day, and for the next two weeks, I was attending daily Mass, and Matt, I've got to tell you, it felt like 10th grade when I found myself reading Scripture, falling in love with our Lord, the pages of the Gospels, and especially Paul, only now it's the Eucharist, and so I get there early, I stay afterwards, I am kneeling before the tabernacle, and I realize, I've got to tell her.
所以当我终于坦白并告诉她时，她提醒我的第一件事是，你还有四年半。 So when I finally came clean and I told her, the first thing she reminded me of was, You still have four and a half years.
最终，在从一位神父那里得到属灵指导并与最终接纳我进入教会的 布鲁斯科维茨蒙席会面后，我有一天晚上告诉她，我需要你祷告。 Eventually, after getting spiritual direction from a priest and meeting with Monsignor Bruskowitz, the pastor who eventually received me into the church, I told her one night, I need you to pray.
我需要为此祷告，因为拖延对我所知为真的事情的顺服，每天都感觉更像是不顺服。 I need to pray about this because delaying obedience to what I know is true is feeling more like disobedience every day.
我把这写进了我的祷告日记。 I had written that into my prayer journal.
我在晚餐前练习了这句话，当它说出来时，她看着我，说，那很聪明。 I had practiced the line before dinner, and when it came out, she looked at me, and she said, that's clever.
我也这么认为。 And I thought so, too.
但，我的意思是，她知道我是诚实的。 But, I mean, she knew I was sincere.
我只是修辞上狡猾，或者我以为是这样。 I was just being rhetorically sly, or so I thought.
所以那天晚上她后来来找我，她承认她祷告过，她知道她必须做什么，那就是让我去做。 So she came to me later that night, and she admitted that she had prayed, and she knew what she had to do, and that was to let me.
她说，会有多长时间？ And she said, how long will it be?
好吧，不到五周，五年就这样过去了。 Well, it was less than five weeks, so much for five years.
于是她告诉我，我想在你接受那个复活节、守夜、弥撒或其他什么的时候来。 And so she told me, I want to come when you're received for that Easter, Vigil, Mass, whatever it is.
所以在接下来的几周里，我试图向她展示，你会 在弥撒中听到比我们圣经服务中更多的圣经。 And so for the next few weeks, I tried to show her that you'll hear more of the Bible in the Mass than you've ever heard in our Bible services.
你还会体验到真实临在的力量。 You'll also experience the power of the real presence.
最后，事情变得太紧张了。 And finally, it got just too tense.
我试图通过辩论让她屈服。 I was trying to debate her into submission.
慢慢地你发现你不是圣三位中的第三位。 And slowly you discover you're not the third person of the Holy Trinity.
所以在那个命运之夜的前一周我们约会了。 So we went on a date the week before that fateful night.
然后我们坐在完全黑暗中，她让我解释。 And then we were sitting in total darkness and she asked me to explain it.
我无法解释，因为没有弥撒像复活节守夜那样。 I couldn't because no Mass had been like the Easter Vigil before.
然后我们有蜡烛，然后它们被点燃。 Then we had candles, then they were lit.
她说，你能解释一下吗？ She said, can you explain?
我说，你会看到的，你会看到的。 I said, you'll see, you'll see.
我不知道我在做什么，我只是想表现得像个专家。 And I didn't know what I was going, I just wanted to come off like the expert.
然后发生的事情，你知道，随着复活赞歌和复活节守夜礼仪，它是如此美丽。 And what happens, you know, with the exaltet and then the Easter Vigil liturgy, it's so beautiful.
她和我一样震惊和惊讶，你知道。 She was stunned and amazed as I was, you know.
然后当旧约读经结束时，我们经历了七次旧约读经，每次之间都有一篇诗篇。 And then when the Old Testament readings are finished, We had gone through seven Old Testament readings with a psalm in between every one.
你不是在开玩笑。 You weren't kidding.
我就说，是的，我告诉过你。 I'm like, yeah, I told you.
我不知道。 I had no idea.
然后当我们为福音站立并读到复活时，她紧紧握着我的手。 And then when we stood for the gospel and we read about the resurrection, she was squeezing my hand so tight.
我不确定她是否生气。 I wasn't sure if she was upset.
一切都好吗？ Is everything all right?
她说，这太荣耀了。 She said, this is glorious.
我告诉过你。 I told you.
然后在信经之后，在信经的讲道之后，蒙席只是把所有这些文本结 合在一起，把它们与圣餐联系起来，甚至她对讲道也印象深刻。 And then after the creed, after the homily of the creed, but the homily, Monsignor just brought all of these texts together, tied them to the Eucharist, And even she was really impressed by the homily.
他是通过慕道班带领你吗？因为你说五周，那是很短的时间。 Was he leading you through RCIA? Because you said five weeks, that's a short time.
是的，我的意思是，他对我说，我说，我必须经历一整年的慕道班 吗？他笑了，说，在我们的谈话之后，你现在可以教慕道班了。 Yeah, I mean, he said to me, I said, do I have to go through a whole year of RCIA? He laughed and he said, you could teach the RCIA at this point after our conversations.
所以他说，我可以接纳你，我会给你指导。 And so he said, I could receive you, I'll give you instruction.
所以他让我读了很多纽曼、耶路撒冷的西里尔，我记不清所有的其他人。 So he had me reading a lot of Newman, Cyril of Jerusalem, I can't remember all of the others.
但主要是我以前读过的东西，他知道这一点。 But it was mostly stuff that I had read before, and he knew that.
他也知道我对此准备得相当充分。 He also knew that I was pretty well prepared for it.
所以那天晚上，就像天上的耶路撒冷打开并欢迎我回家。 And so that night, it was like the heavenly Jerusalem opening up and welcoming me home.
然后当我回到家时，紧张、压力和其他一切。 And then when I got home, it was tension, stress, and all the rest.
所以接下来的四年是《罗马甜蜜的家》书中一些最痛苦、最痛苦的阅读。 And so the next four years are some of the most painful, anguished reading in the Rome Sweet Home book.
因为我真的花了很长时间去活出，好吧，我不是圣灵。 Because it really took me a long time to live out, okay, I'm not the Holy Spirit.
我不能纠正她。 I can't set her straight.
在圣事的帮助下，我可以更好地爱她，而不是没 有它们，但我必须让她听到她在天上的父亲。 I can love her better with the help of the sacraments than I can without them, but I'm going to have to let her hear her Father in heaven.
这就是发生的事情。 And that's what happened.
大约四年后，在圣灰星期三，当我在加州时，她在电话中让我震惊。 About four years later on Ash Wednesday, she shocked me in a phone call when I was out in California.
她在斯图本维尔找房子，接下来的事情，如我们所说，就是历史了。 She was here in Steubenville looking for housing, and the rest, as we say, is history.
www.catholicchemistry.com www.catholicchemistry.com
如果你是单身，希望主召唤你进入婚姻圣事，请查看 catholicchemistry.com。 Somebody who is single, who is hoping that the Lord is calling you to the sacrament of marriage, please go check out catholicchemistry.com.
它是由我的一个好朋友查克·加卢奇创立的。 It was founded by a good friend of mine, Chuck Gallucci.
我们俩曾在天主教答疑工作，所以他是一个坚定的正统天主教徒。 The two of us used to work at Catholic Answers, so he's a solid Orthodox Catholic.
他发现自己对许多现有的约会网站印象不深，所以他们开始了这个网站，绝对是很棒的。 He found himself just unimpressed with many of the dating sites out there, and so they've started this, and it's absolutely fantastic.
这是他们收到的某人的一封电子邮件。 Here's one email they've received from somebody.
他们说，决定给格蕾丝发信息。 They said, Decided to message Grace.
她住在一个小时的路程外，冒险问她是否想几天后见面，从那时起我们就一直在约会。 She lives only an hour away, took a chance and asked if she wanted to meet up a couple of days later and we've been dating ever since.
所以你看。 So there you go.
格蕾丝就在外面等着你。 Grace is out there just waiting for you.
所以点击下面描述中的链接，让他们知道是我们推荐的，并在c atholicchemistry.com上开始你的账户。 So click the link in the description below so that they know that we sent you and start your account over at catholicchemistry.com.
好的。 All right.
我以前从未听说过。 I've never heard of that before.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
这实际上真的很好。 It's actually really good.
我很高兴我不需要它。 I'm glad I didn't need it.
是的，我想在过去，天主教约会网站似乎有点 音乐将被省略。 Yeah, I think back in the day Catholic dating sites seemed a little Music will be omitted.
我会说回到基础，那就是提醒你自己和我们的主， 你，耶稣基督，是我的救主，但你也是万主之主。 I would say get back to the basics, and that is remind yourself and our Lord that you, Jesus Christ, are my Savior, but you're also the Lord of Lords.
所以我希望你在我的生活中更多地行使你的主权，而不是更少，比以往任何时候都更多。 And so I want you to exercise your Lordship in my life more, not less, more than ever before.
其次，神在圣经中默示的道就是这样。 Second, the Word of God inspired in Sacred Scripture is just that.
这是神的道。 It's the Word of God.
它是有力量的。 It's powerful.
所以即使唯独圣经可能是错误的，这并不意味着圣经在你生命中 的首要地位不是一个跟随我们的主并活出他的主权的有用工具。 And so just because Sola Scriptura might be wrong, It doesn't mean that the primacy of Scripture in your life isn't really a useful instrument to follow our Lord and to live out His Lordship.
所以要虔诚地、仔细地继续阅读圣经。 And so keep reading Scripture prayerfully, carefully.
第三件事，显然，就是阅读教父。 And the third thing, obviously, would be to read the Church Fathers.
阅读教父。 Read the Church Fathers.
尤尔根的三卷作品《早期教父的信仰》是一个很好的来源。 Juergen's three-volume work, The Faith of the Early Fathers, is such a great source.
我还要说，如果你认为你可能大部分被说服了，那就让这不仅仅是一次智力上的旅行。 I would also say that if you think you might be mostly convinced, make this more than an intellectual head trip.
通过求助于圣徒，尤其是圣母马利亚，使这变得超自然。 Supernaturalize this by going to the saints, or especially the Blessed Virgin Mary.
你知道，我到了一个地步，觉得天主教的100条教义中有99 条是真的，但最后那第100条是马利亚教义，马利亚崇拜。 You know, I got to the point where I felt like 99 out of 100 Catholic teachings were true, but that last 100th element was Marian doctrine, Marian devotion.
这对我来说似乎是如此陌生。 It just seemed so foreign to me.
所以我记得对自己的感觉有点不舒服，我要祈祷 这个，我要把一些感觉不可能的意图托付给她。 And so I remember just kind of feeling uncomfortable with my own I'm going to pray this, and I'm going to entrust to her some intention that has felt like it's impossible.
我确实完成了玫瑰经。 And I did finish the rosary.
这才是真正的转折点，因为这不是突然发生的，但几个月后我意识到， 她不仅听到了我的祷告并在我几乎放弃后回答了它，而且她还表现出其 他一些你会与一个比你意识到的更爱你的母亲联系在一起的事情。 That is what really flipped the switch because it didn't occur to me suddenly, but months later I realized that not only had she heard my prayer and answered it after I had almost given up, but she had also manifested other kinds of things that you would associate with a mother who loves you more than you realize.
我几分钟前在我们谈话的开头说过，这两个从奥兰多一路开车到 棕榈滩的人，作为兄弟，作为新教徒，一起慢慢地祈祷玫瑰经。 I was saying this a few minutes ago at the top of our conversation that these two guys who drove all the way down from Orlando to Palm Beach Pray the Rosary together as brothers, as Protestants, slowly.
当我问他们是否曾经祈祷过，他们提到他们刚刚完成时，他们 互相看着，你几乎可以感觉到他们的兄弟情谊变得超自然。 And when I asked them if they'd ever prayed and they mentioned that they just finished, they looked at each other and you could almost sense that their fraternity had become supernatural.
你知道，不仅在基督里，也在圣母里。 You know, not just in Christ, but also in the Blessed Virgin.
所以我会说，你知道，玫瑰经已经成为我36或37年来最喜欢的祷告。 And so I would say, you know, that the Rosary has become my favorite prayer for 36 or 37 years.
它使福音书变得生动。 It's made the Gospels come alive.
好的，这里有一个来自我们的支持者之一埃里克·霍尔姆伯格的问题。 All right, here's another question from Eric Holmberg, who's one of our patrons.
谢谢你，埃里克。 Thank you, Eric.
他问这个问题，你会对一个渴望传统、礼仪和圣餐但正在考虑东正教的新教徒说些什么？ He asks this, What would you say to a Protestant who is hungry for tradition, liturgy, and the Eucharist, but is considering Orthodoxy?
换句话说，反驳东正教声称是耶稣创立的真正教会的最佳理由是什么？ To put it another way, what is the single best refutation of the Orthodox claim to be the true church Jesus founded?
嗯，我还没有遇到詹姆斯·利库达斯的著作，但我会推荐他。 Well, I hadn't encountered the writings of James Likudas yet, but I would recommend him.
詹姆斯·利库达斯曾是东正教徒，他成为天主教徒，然后 成为天主教信仰中心的主席，也是三十年的亲密朋友。 James Likudas was Orthodox, he became Catholic, and then he became the president of Catholic Center for the Faith, and a dear friend of 30 years.
我们计划重印他的书。 We plan to reprint his books.
它们可以在bookfinder.com上找到 They're available at bookfinder.com
也许在亚马逊上，但bookfinder.com and maybe Amazon, but bookfinder.com
为你提供最广泛和最便宜的选择。 gives you the widest and the cheapest choices.
我还要说这个。 I would also say this.
我想加入东正教。 I wanted to go Orthodox.
我被这个宗教吸引。 I was drawn to the religion.
告诉我们为什么。 Tell us why.
我的意思是，至少你没有教宗这个绊脚石。 I mean, you don't have the Pope, the stumbling block of the Pope, at least.
是的，我的意思是，我被按立为牧师，我可以作为一个已婚男子被按 立为东正教的神父，所以我不必像成为天主教徒那样自毁职业生涯。 Yeah, I mean, I was ordained a pastor, and I could be ordained as a married man, a priest in the Orthodox Church, and so I wouldn't have to commit professional suicide like I would if I became a Catholic.
所以我所做的是四处旅行，我拜访了一些东正教徒，我还参 观了一些东正教教堂，我很早就意识到东正教是民族性的。 And so what I did was I traveled around and I visited some Orthodox Christians and I also visited a few Orthodox churches and I realized very early that Orthodoxy is ethnic.
有希腊的，有乌克兰的，有爱沙尼亚的，有塞尔维亚的，有俄罗斯的。 There's Greek, there's Ukrainian, there's Estonian, there's Serbian, there's Russian.
我总是有点，不，我并不总是，我最近开始对教派感到怀疑，以及教派的泛滥 ，然后当我意识到有十几个自治的东正教团体都是由他们的民族性定义的。 And I always sort of, no I didn't always, I had recently become suspicious of denominations and just the proliferation of denominations And then when I realized there were more than a dozen autocephalous Orthodox bodies that are all defined by their ethnicity.
我当时创造了一个术语，叫做教派主义。 I coined a term back then called Denominationalism.
如果有一件事新约不是，而旧约是，那就是民族性和民族主义，首先是以色列。 That if there's one thing the New Covenant isn't, that the Old Covenant was, was ethnic and nationalistic, it was Israel first.
我突然意识到，当我去一个希腊东正教教堂时，它比我能成为的更希腊。 And it just struck me that when I went to a Greek Orthodox church, it was more Greek than I could be.
我感觉像个外人。 And I felt like an outsider.
还有另一件事，就是filioque。 And so the other thing, too, is the filioque.
我们不能深入探讨这个，但这是我最喜欢的发现之一。 And we can't get into this, but it's one of my favorite discoveries.
对于在家的人来说，filioque是教会在尼西亚会议后插入的东西。 Just for people at home, the filioque was something inserted by the church after the Council of Nicaea.
没错。 That's right.
东正教在这方面是对的。 The Orthodox are right on that.
但你的观点是，东正教否认圣灵从圣父和圣子而出是错误的。 But your point is that The Orthodox are wrong to deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
没错。 That's right.
我的意思是，在7世纪及以后，西方，主要是在西班牙，出现了一 个半亚略主义的异端，西方教会必须对此作出回应，因此罗马主教 通过插入filioque来更明确地肯定圣灵的完全神性。 I mean, in the 7th century and beyond, you have a semi-Arian heresy spreading in the West, mostly in Spain, that the Church in the West has to respond to, and so the Bishop of Rome does by inserting the filioque so that the full divinity of the Holy Spirit is affirmed more explicitly.
但这不仅仅是因为东西方之间已经存在紧张关系，所以东方不接受这个决定 ，并在接下来的几个世纪中开始争论，直到1054年他们最终互相绝罚。 But there's also more to it than that because there was already tension between East and West and so the East didn't accept that decision and began to controvert it over the course of the next few centuries until finally in 1054 they have the mutual excommunications.
所以我更冷静和客观地去看filioque，有点想发现东正教是对的。 And so more calmly and dispassionately I went and looked at the filioque, kind of wanting to find that the Orthodox were right.
但是，你知道，根据共同的同意，我们知道圣子从圣父而出，圣灵从圣父 而出，并通过圣子，或从圣父和圣子而出的所谓永恒进程的唯一方法。 But, you know, by common consent the only way we know the so-called eternal processions of the Son from the Father, and the Holy Spirit from the Father, and through the Son, or from the Father and the Son.
我们知道永恒进程的唯一方法是通过时间上的使命。 The only way we know the eternal processions are through the temporal missions.
没有人质疑在时间上的使命中，圣父差遣圣子成为人，并根 据约翰福音15和16章的告别辞，圣父和圣子差遣圣灵。 And nobody disputes that in the temporal missions the Father sends the Son to become man, and according to the Farewell Discourse in John 15 and 16, the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit.
所以，如果使命揭示了这些永恒的进程，并且除了使命之外没有 办法知道这些进程，那么，你知道，如果每个人都肯定圣父和圣 子差遣圣灵，那么圣灵怎么能只从圣父而不从圣子而出呢？ And so, if the missions reveal these eternal processions, and there's no way to know the processions apart from the missions, Then, you know, if everybody is affirming that the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit, then how can the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and not from the Son?
而且，你知道，还有其他事情。 And, you know, there are other things too.
这是我最喜欢的话题之一，但它如此深奥，以至于没有人真正理解。 It's one of my favorite topics, but it's so esoteric that nobody really gets it.
你认为东方天主教徒，如果他们开始添加filioque会好吗？ Do you think that Eastern Catholics, that it would be good if they began adding the filioque?
因为有时我会遇到几乎本质上想成为东正教徒的东方天主教徒 ，并开始采纳东正教会持有的信仰 我们需要再一个小时。 Because sometimes I'll encounter Eastern Catholics who almost essentially want to be Orthodox and begin to adopt beliefs that the Orthodox Church holds We need another hour.
关于这个。 On this.
我也会很喜欢。 I would love it too.
我觉得一旦我开始走这条路，就像旧金山的街道。 I feel like once I start down this road, it's like a San Francisco street.
我将无法停止。 I won't be able to stop.
在旧金山长板滑行。 Long boarding down a San Francisco.
好吧，我们下次再做。 Okay, let's do that another time.
这是我们的一位支持者大卫·巴尔的问题。 Here's a question from our patron, David Barr.
实际上，这是一个评论。 Actually, it's a comment.
他说，两年前我开始阅读使徒教父，以证明我当时正在考虑天主教的兄弟是错的。 He says, Two years ago I started reading the Apostolic Fathers to prove my brother wrong, who was considering Catholicism at the time.
截至今年复活节，我的两个兄弟、我的妻子和我自己都进入了教会。 As of this Easter, two of my brothers, my wife and myself, are all coming into the church.
斯科特·汉恩的见证和学术工作对我的旅程有很大贡献。 Scott Hahn's testimony and scholarly work contributed significantly to my journey.
愿神祝福。 God bless.
你一定很喜欢。 You must love.
听到这样的事情，他们一定不会厌倦。 They must never get old hearing things like that.
荣耀归于神。 Glory to God.
我曾遇到一位神父，他说，主啊，用我的，他用 了一个不同的词，粪便，作为他们成长的肥料。 I once met a priest who said, Lord, use my, and he used a different word, dung, as manure for their growth.
用上所有。 Use it all.
使用我所说的好的东西。 Use the things I say that are good.
克里斯说，感谢你的超级聊天，他说，汉恩博士，你能用语言表达你作为天 主教徒如何不同地阅读圣经，这可能会帮助其他新教徒如何阅读圣经吗？ Chris says, thank you for your super chat, he says, Dr. Hahn, are you able to put into words how you read Scripture differently as a Catholic, which may help other Protestants in how to read the Bible?
你知道，这又是一个冰山一角类型的问题和答案。 You know, this again is a tip of an iceberg type of question and answer.
所以，我的意思是，是的。 So, I mean, yes.
我想指出的是这个，一个礼仪诠释学。 What I would pinpoint is this, a liturgical hermeneutic.
圣经是为了在礼仪中被阅读而写的，目的是揭示即将发生的奥秘。 that Scripture was written to be read in the liturgy for the purpose of illuminating the mystery that is about to happen.
然后圣餐的奥秘正是成全圣经中神的道的东西。 And then the Eucharistic mystery is exactly what fulfills the Word of God in Scripture.
而且耶稣只在路加福音22章20节中使用了一次“新约”这个词，而新约中最早 提到新约的是在哥林多前书11章25节，在这两种情况下都指的是设立叙述。 And the fact that Jesus only uses the phrase the New Testament one time in Luke 22-20, and the earliest reference to the New Testament in the New Testament is in 1 Corinthians 11-25, in both instances it's referring to the institution narrative.
保罗说，在他被出卖的那一夜，他拿起杯来说，这是我的血，新约的血。 Paul says, on the night he was betrayed, he takes the chalice and he says, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the New Testament.
耶稣没有继续说，写下这个以纪念我。 Jesus doesn't go on to say, write this in remembrance of me.
他说，行这个。 He says, do this.
而十二使徒中的大多数最终没有为我们称为新约的27本书贡献一 本书，但不是因为他们懒惰或不顺服，而是因为他说，行这个。 And most of the 12 never ended up contributing a single book to the collection of 27 that we call the New Testament, but not because they were lazy or disobedient, but because he said, do this.
他们这样做了。 And they did this.
耶稣从未写过任何东西。 Jesus never wrote anything.
他从未命令他们写任何东西。 He never commanded them to write anything.
我很高兴他们中的一些人这样做了。 I'm glad that some of them did.
大多数人没有。但他们都做了这件事，就是圣餐，他称之为新约。 Most of them didn't. But what they all did was this, Eucharist, that he calls the New Testament.
所以对我来说，最大的突破之一是新约在根据文件成为文件之前是圣事。 And so for me, one of the biggest breakthroughs was that the New Testament was the sacrament before it became a document according to the document.
这并没有贬低新约作为文件的价值。 And it doesn't devalue the New Testament as a document.
事实上，它赋予它一种圣事性，引用本笃教宗在《主的道》中的语言。 In fact, it invests it with a sacramentality to draw from Pope Benedict's language in Verbum Domini.
圣经本身就是圣事性的。 that scripture itself is sacramental.
你知道，当你看到新约的正典化大约发生在380年达玛苏教宗时期，但同一 年，同一位教宗在同一个罗马城市也正典化了我们称之为罗马正典的东西。 You know, and so when you see that the canonization of the New Testament occurs roughly around 380 with Pope Damasus, but that same year, that same pope in the same city of Rome also canonized what we call the Roman canon.
嗯，多么巧合。 Well, what a coincidence.
不，新约是作为礼仪实施而被正典化的。 Well, no, the New Testament was canonized as a liturgical enactment.
罗马正典被正典化是因为这是慕道者弥撒的前半部分，这是圣餐礼仪。 And the Roman canon was canonized because this is the first half of the mass of the catechumens, this is the The Liturgy of the Eucharist.
所以一手洗另一手。 And so one hand washes the other.
你从圣经中得到的更多，不仅是连接旧约和新约，还连接圣经与神圣的礼仪。 You get so much more out of the Bible, not only connecting the old and the new, but connecting sacred scripture with the sacred liturgy.
从那里开始，这不像是，你最终不得不忘记圣经的世界观。 And from there, it isn't like, well, you end up having to kind of forget about a biblical worldview.
现在突然间你有了一个圣事的宇宙观，一个圣事的礼仪人类学，我们是为敬拜而造的。 Now suddenly you have a sacramental cosmology, a sacramental liturgical anthropology that we were made for worship.
我的意思是，我有《字母与精神》这本书。 And I mean, I have Letter and Spirit, the book.
我还有《消耗之道》。 I also have Consuming the Word.
我的许多书展示了以礼仪方式阅读圣经有什么不同。 So many of my books show what difference it makes to read the Bible liturgically.
好吧，这是我妹妹艾玛·弗拉德的问题。 Well, here's a question from my sister, Emma Fradd.
我们昨晚在谈话，她说她正在读你帮助编写的《新约依纳爵研读圣经》。 We were speaking last night and she said she was reading the New Testament Ignatius Study Bible, which you helped put together and write.
艾玛说，感谢你为《依纳爵新约研读圣经》投入的时间和努力。 Emma says this, Thank you for your time and effort you put into the Ignatius New Testament Study Bible.
我读到《启示录》了，它是如此美丽。 I'm up to Revelation and it is so beautiful.
我学到了很多。 I am learning so much.
你会做一本旧约研读圣经吗？ Will you ever do an Old Testament study Bible?
如果是这样，你有预计时间吗？是的，我们有。 If so, do you have an ETA? Yes, we do.
是的，我们有。 And yes, we have.
好的，所以是在1997年，费苏神父问我是否愿意帮忙 ，我说愿意，但前提是你要雇用这个刚毕业的研究生。 Okay, so it was in 1997 that Father Fessu asked me if I would help, and I said yes, but only if you hire this grad student who just graduated.
他和我的家人住在一起，柯蒂斯·米奇。 He's living with my family, Curtis Mitch.
22年来，柯蒂斯·米奇一直在做所有的重活。 For 22 years, Curtis Mitch has been doing all the heavy lifting.
我很高兴能成为总编辑。 I am so glad to be the general editor.
但我实际上很少需要指导他。 But I have really needed to guide him very little.
我们基本上可以完成对方的句子。 We basically can finish each other's sentences.
但在2020年12月，我们完成了旧约的最后一本书，撒迦利亚书。 But in December of 2020, we finished the last book of the Old Testament, Zechariah.
所以感谢神，也感谢柯蒂斯·米奇，我怀疑这项跨越二十多年的爱的劳动应该会出版。 And so thanks be to God and thanks be to Curtis Mitch that this labor of love that has spanned more than two decades should be out, I suspect.
我不认为到2021年底还有太多编辑工作要做。 I don't think by the end of 2021 there's just too much editing still to be done.
但我认为会有一本《依纳爵天主教研读圣经》的单卷本。 But I think there'll be a one-volume 1 volume edition of the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible.
你可能会说，新约太厚了。 You might say, well, the New Testament is just too thick.
那些用过的厚页可能最终会使用洋葱皮，但希望不是那种你的记号笔会渗透的。 Those used thick pages will probably end up using onion skin, but hopefully not the kind that your marker bleeds through.
所以就像新教徒有三四十本研读圣经一样，我们也会有这一本，我非常感激。 So just like the Protestants have 30 or 40 study Bibles, we're going to have this one, and I'm just so grateful.
艾玛，感谢你读完整个新约。 And Emma, thank you for reading through the whole New Testament.
这让我很开心。 That makes my day.
她还问，对于注意力短暂的人，你推荐的首选旧约研读圣经是什么？ And she also asks, what is your number one recommendation for an Old Testament study Bible for someone with a short attention span?
换句话说，她不想要太学术的东西，但在你的书 到来之前，你会推荐什么作为旧约研读圣经？ In other words, she doesn't want something too academic, but until your book gets here, what would you recommend as an Old Testament study Bible?
嗯，我会说，现在依纳爵出版社已经出版了许多单独的旧约书籍。 Well, I would say so many of the individual Old Testament books are now out from Ignatius Press.
创世记是一本独立的书。 Genesis is a standalone.
出埃及记也是。 Exodus is as well.
我相信申命记，当然还有诗篇、智慧文学、先知书等等， 到艾玛读完所有已经出版的书时，整个东西都会在那里。 I believe Deuteronomy, certainly the Psalms, the wisdom literature, the prophets and so, By the time Emma gets through all of the ones that are out, the whole thing will be there.
太好了。 Excellent.
让我们看看这里。 Let's see here.
拜占庭基地，感谢你的超级聊天，说，汉恩博士，我从小就是你的超 级粉丝，阅读《罗马甜蜜的家》确实巩固了他作为青少年的信仰。 Based Byzantine, thank you for your super chat, says, Dr. Hahn, I have been a huge fan of you since I was a kid and reading Rome Sweet Home really solidified his faith as a teenager.
只是因为我们提到过几次这本书《罗马甜蜜的家》，人们可以在哪里得到这本书？ Just because we've mentioned this book, Rome Sweet Home, a few times, where can people get that book?
嗯，它可以从依纳爵出版社获得。 Well, it's available from Ignatius Press.
我会在描述中很快放上一个链接。 I'll put a link in the description shortly.
显然可以从亚马逊的杰夫·贝佐斯那里获得。 And obviously from Jeff Bezos at Amazon.
你可以去bookfinder.com， You can go to bookfinder.com,
我最喜欢的地方，可以更便宜地找到它，一个二手版 本，你可以得到一些公平的、好的或像新的东西。 my favorite spot, and find it more cheaply, a used version, and you can get something that is fair or good or like new.
但我也刚刚与被任命为依纳爵负责人的费斯蒂亚神父的马克 ·布鲁姆利沟通，马克邀请金伯利和我做一个播客录制版。 But I also just communicated with Mark Brumley, who Father Festia was put in charge of Ignatius, and Mark invited Kimberly and me to do a podcast A recorded version.
我们从未做过音频版本。 We've never done an audio version.
其他人做过，所以在接下来的一年左右，我们真的很想回去。 Some other person did, and so within the next year or so, we are really eager to go back.
那会很棒。 That would be excellent.
是的，我们也在考虑与依纳爵商谈可能做一个三十周年版。 Yeah, and we also are thinking about approaching Ignatius about possibly doing like a 30th edition.
它在93年出版，所以在2023年，我们可以添 加一个后记，反思三十年来生活在其中的感受。 It came out in 93, so in 2023, we could kind of add an afterword and reflect upon three decades of what it's like to live this.
我们有六个孩子，现在仅从前三个最大的孩子就有20个孙子。 We have six kids and now 20 grandkids just from the first three oldest.
接下来的两个，耶利米和约瑟，实际上在神学院为教区的神职学习。 The next two, Jeremiah and Joseph, are actually in the seminary studying for the priesthood for the diocese.
所以请在5月21日记得为我们的耶利米祷告。 And so May 21st, please remember our Jeremiah prayer.
那时他将被按立为神父。 That's when he's going to be ordained a priest.
然后乔将在一年后成为过渡执事，然后成为神父。 And then Joe will follow a year later to the transitional diaconate and then to the priesthood.
但我必须说，当我35年前加入时，我知道天主教信仰是真的。 But I must say that I knew that the Catholic faith was true when I came in, you know, 35 years ago.
我只是没有意识到它有多么真实，真理有多么美丽，天主教信仰的美有多么强大。 I just had no idea how true it is, how beautiful the truths are, how powerful the beauty of the Catholic faith is.
这就像好消息并不是在减去作为新教徒的福音。 It's like the good news wasn't subtracting the gospel as a Protestant.
这是在增加，但现在我只是觉得这更像是在不夸张地指数倍增好消息。 It was adding, but now I just feel as though it's more like multiplying the good news exponentially without exaggerating.
这就像好得难以置信，除非这是真理。 It's like too good to be true unless it's the truth.
这是我在新教徒皈依者中不断遇到的事情。 This is something I keep encountering with Protestant converts.
他们不认为他们必须抛弃任何旧信仰。 They don't think they had to shed any of their old beliefs necessarily.
显然有一些。 Obviously some.
他们正在进入更大更宏伟的东西。 They're entering something much larger and more grand.
我想问你关于唯独圣经的事。 I want to ask you about Sola Scriptura.
你会如何定义它？ How would you define it?
因为我们不想把我们的新教兄弟姐妹定义成稻草人。 Because we don't want to straw man our Protestant brothers and sisters as they would define it.
为什么它是错误的？ And why is it false?
好的，所以有两种方法来处理唯独圣经，就像有 两种方法来处理唯独信心，你知道，信心唯独。 Okay, so there are two ways to approach sola scriptura, like there are two ways to approach sola fide, you know, faith alone.
我的意思是，阿奎那在他的圣餐赞美诗中写道，sola f ide sufficit，只有信心足以应对圣餐的奥秘。 I mean, Aquinas puts in his Eucharistic hymn, sola fide sufficit, only faith suffices when it comes to the mystery of the Eucharist.
所以，我会说，天主教徒可以肯定唯独信心，只有信心会使 我们称义，副词上是只有，但不是形容词上的信心唯独。 And so, I would say that a Catholic could affirm sola fide, only faith will justify us, adverbially, it's only, but not faith alone, adjectivally.
如果信心是孤立的，那么没有爱它就是死的。 If faith is alone, then it's dead without love.
同样，我会说，多米尼加人在13和14世纪已经在肯定不是唯独圣 经而是首要圣经，正如布莱恩·蒂尔尼和其他历史学家所展示的。 And likewise, I would say that the Dominicans already in the 13th and 14th centuries were affirming not sola scriptura but prima scriptura, as Brian Tierney and other historians have shown.
那就是，严格来说，只有圣经是神的默示之道。 And that is, only scripture, technically speaking, is inspired Word of God.
训导权受到圣灵的保护，以便它在以明确的方式教导时只教导无误的真理、信仰和道德。 The magisterium is protected by the Spirit so that it only teaches infallible truth and faith and morals when it is teaching in a definitive way.
同样，圣传是有效的生命，当你庆祝圣事时，它们 产生恩典，无论神父是圣洁的还是在致死的罪中。 Likewise, the sacred tradition is Life is efficacious, that when you celebrate the sacraments, they effect grace whether the priest is holy or in mortal sin.
但关于默示有一些独特之处。 But there's something unique about inspiration.
在我们的传统中，默示意味着双重作者。 Inspiratio in our tradition means dual authorship.
这不是50%的人性和50%的神性，而更像基督。 It's not 50-50 human and divine, it's more like Christ.
它是100%的人性，但也是100%的神性。 It's 100% human, but it's 100% divine.
所以马太、马可、路加和约翰不是速记员或抄写员，他 们是完整的作者，他们是作者，但圣灵是主要的作者。 So Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John aren't stenographers or amanuenses, they're full writers, they're authors, but the Holy Spirit is the principal author.
我会说，你最终会在天主教传统中发现比南方浸信 会更高的圣经观，但它总是从属于道成肉身的道。 I would say that you end up discovering in the Catholic tradition a higher view of Scripture than you'll find among the Southern Baptists, but it's always subordinated to the incarnated Word.
但道成肉身的道正是你在圣餐中找到的，所以圣经总是从属于这一点。 But the incarnated Word is precisely what you find in the Eucharist, and so Scripture is always subordinated to that.
但直接切入正题。 But the cut to the chase.
简短的回答是，当我阅读圣经时，我在圣经中发现圣经不是唯一的权威。 The short answer is that when I read Scripture, I discovered in Scripture that Scripture is not the only authority.
这是传统的新教思维方式，认为唯独圣经是神的道的权威来源。 That's the conventional and Protestant way of thinking of sola scriptura, that Scripture alone is the authoritative source for the Word of God.
事实上，圣经在帖撒罗尼迦后书2章15节告诉我们，要坚 守你们从我们所领受的一切，无论是书面的还是口头的。 When, in fact, Scripture tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2.15, hold fast to all that you've received from us, either in writing or by word of mouth.
坚守传统，传承。 Hold fast to the tradition, the parodicis.
所以保罗提醒帖撒罗尼迦人和我们所有人，我们必须坚守的是传统。 And so Paul is reminding the Thessalonians and all of us that what we have to hold fast to is the tradition.
有两种形式，书面和口头传统。 And there are two forms, written and oral tradition.
书面显然是圣经。 Written is obviously scripture.
口头传统不是修道院和修道院中的耳语秘密，而是你在礼仪中拥有的。 Oral tradition aren't the whispered secrets in the convent and the monasteries, but what you have in the liturgy.
圣餐的祷告可以追溯到楼上的圣周四，还有更多。 The prayers of the Eucharist that go back to Holy Thursday in the upper room and much, much more.
我们在星期天而不是安息日敬拜的事实。 The fact that we do worship on Sunday, not the Sabbath.
我们给婴儿施洗而不是给他们行割礼。 We do baptize infants and not circumcise them.
所有的口头传统是圣经所指的，与圣经一起具有独特权威的东西。 All of the oral tradition is what scripture points to as being uniquely authoritative alongside of Scripture.
但一旦你意识到耶稣说，行这个，而不是写这个，那么你会对这些著作心存感激。 But once you realize Jesus said, do this, not write this, then you're grateful for the writings.
但你意识到这些著作是在死而复活后25、30、40年才开始的。 But you realize that the writings began 25, 30, 40 years after the death and resurrection.
那么教会如何繁荣和传播呢？ And so how could the church flourish and spread?
嗯，因为他们在做这个。 Well, because they were doing this.
这是什么？ And what is this?
我们称之为圣餐。 We call it the Eucharist.
耶稣称之为新约。 Jesus called it the New Testament.
所以新约教会在新约书籍尚未开始之前就已经传播新约信仰。 So the New Testament church was spreading the New Testament faith before the New Testament books were even begun.
所以，就像帖撒罗尼迦后书2章15节，同样，提摩太前书3章 15节，圣经告诉我们，真理的柱石和根基是教会，神的家。 And so, just 2 Thessalonians 2.15, likewise, 1 Timothy 3.15, where you have scripture telling us that the pillar and foundation of truth is the church, the household of God.
现在，我会更喜欢如果保罗说真理的柱石和根基是圣经。 Now, I would have preferred if Paul had said that the pillar and foundation of truth is scripture.
但如果圣经指向教会以及传统，那么你会意识到唯独圣经在圣经中没有被教导， 但事实上，圣经所教导的颠覆了唯独圣经的概念，仿佛那是我们唯一的权威？ But if scripture is pointing to the church, as well as to tradition, then you realize that sola scriptura is nowhere taught in scripture, but in fact, what scripture does teach Subverts the notion of sola scriptura as though that is our only authority?
不，我记得甚至打电话给J.I.帕克博士和R.C. 斯普劳尔博士，问他们，圣经在哪里教导唯独圣经？ No, I remember even calling Dr. J.I. Packer and Dr. R.C. Sproul and asking these guys, you know, where does scripture teach sola scriptura?
你知道，他们会指向提摩太后书3章16节，只有圣经是默示的 ，但你知道，圣经是默示的，但它没有说只有圣经是权威的。 You know, and they would point to 2 Timothy 3.16, only scripture is inspired, but, you know, scripture is inspired, but it doesn't say only scripture is authoritative.
所以帕克对我非常诚实。 And so Packer was really honest with me.
他说，你知道，这对我们来说确实是我们作为福音派信仰的前提。 He said, you know, it really is for us the presupposition of our faith as evangelicals.
我就想，等一下，如果我们的前提不是从圣经中证明的，我们 怎么能说你不能相信任何东西，除非它真的在圣经中找到？ I'm like, wait a second, if our presupposition is not demonstrated from Scripture, how could we say that you can't believe anything unless it's really found in Scripture?
我发现当与新教徒交谈时，说传统明确了圣经中隐含的内容是有帮助的。 I found it helpful when speaking to Protestants to say that tradition makes explicit what's implicit in Scripture.
虽然情况并非总是如此，因为你有圣经中没有隐含的书。 Although that's not always the case, because you have the books of the Bible that aren't implicit in Scripture.
我不认为这既不是隐含的也不是明确的，即神不会启示更 多的使徒，或者启示录随着最后一位使徒的去世而结束。 I don't think it's either implicit or explicit that God won't inspire further apostles either, or that the Revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
我也没有在其中看到这一点。 I don't see that in there either.
如果耶稣正在建立一个新约，那是一种家庭。 If Jesus is establishing a new covenant, and that's a kind of family.
在大多数家庭中，更多的是被感受到而不是被教导。 In most households, more is caught than taught.
你不会写下所有的规则，你只是过生活。 You don't write down all the rules, you just live the life.
我会说，教会的礼仪传统是优先的，圣经最终是为 礼仪而写成和正典化的，以便被阅读和宣讲等等。 I would say that the liturgical tradition of the church is prior, and that scripture is finally written and canonized for the liturgy, to be read and proclaimed and all.
我记得在马凯特问过约瑟夫·利恩哈特神父，他是 耶稣会士，教父学专家，你会如何回应唯独圣经？ I remember asking Fr. Joseph Lienhardt at Marquette, he was a Jesuit, a patristic expert, how would you respond to Sola Scriptura?
他是耶稣会士，我还是新教徒，他看着我，心领神会地说，好吧，如果你 承认帖撒罗尼迦后书2章15节，并且你在为这个关于奥古斯丁的博士研 讨会阅读奥古斯丁，我想奥古斯丁会说，圣经真正教导的是唯独传统。 He was a Jesuit, I was still a Protestant, and he looked at me and he knowingly said, okay, if you recognize 2 Thessalonians 2.15 and you're reading Augustine for this doctoral seminar on Augustine, I think Augustine would say that really what Scripture teaches is solo traditio, tradition alone.
并且有口头传统，但也有书面传统。 And that there's oral tradition, but there's also written tradition.
但真理和生命的传递，这是圣经教导的，这是奥古 斯丁教导的，这也是《神的道》第二章教导的。 But the transmission of the truth and the life, that's what Scripture teaches, that's what Augustine teaches, and that's also what Dei Verbum chapter 2 teaches.
这促使我去读《神的道》第二章，我就想，它说得很到位。 And that sent me stirring to read Dei Verbum chapter 2, and I'm like, it nails it.
我几乎想不出我曾与之交谈过的任何一个人读过《神的道》，这是梵蒂冈第二 次大公会议的16个文件之一，可以说是最权威和最具形成性或变革性的。 I can hardly think of a single person I've ever talked to who read Dei Verbum, the dogmatic constitution of divine revelation, one of the 16 documents of Vatican II, and arguably the most authoritative and the most formative or transformative.
你读了前三章，你会意识到他们对圣经的看法不比任何人低。 You read the first three chapters and you realize they don't have a lower view of Scripture than anybody.
但他们认识到，从新约中得出的总体类别是传统，即通过圣事和 道的宣讲以及其他一切，从圣灵到使徒的基督生命真理的传递。 But they recognize that the overarching category that is drawn from the New Testament is the tradition, that is, the transmission of the truth of the life of Christ that comes from the Spirit to the apostles through the sacraments and the proclamation of the Word and all the rest.
一旦你这样调整你的视角，突然间就像是三维的。 And once you just adjust your lenses that way, Suddenly it's like three-dimensional.
这是圣经、礼仪和训导权。 It's scripture, liturgy, and the magisterium.
但训导权不像最高法院。 But the magisterium is not like the Supreme Court.
训导权就像一个使徒的有机体。 The magisterium is like an apostolic organism.
他们在宣讲圣经，他们在庆祝圣事，他们被圣灵赋予权力，以 无误地教导你需要知道的，以避免异端的毒害和类似的事情。 They're proclaiming scripture, they're celebrating the sacraments, and they're empowered by the Spirit to teach infallibly what you need to know to avoid the toxin of heresy and that sort of thing.
De Clouze Views，他有一个很棒的YouTube频 道，人们应该去看看，他说，像你一样，我爱圣托马斯和共融神学家。 De Clouze Views, who's got an excellent YouTube channel that people should check out, says, Like you, I love St. Thomas and the Communio Theologians.
许多人认为他们不相容，甚至将共融思想家标记为现代主义者。 Many think they are incompatible or even label the Communio thinkers as modernists.
你会怎么说？ What would you say?
请再给我一个小时。 Another hour, please.
让我试着给出要点。 Let me try to give bullet points.
你知道，我在20世纪最喜欢的神学家是多米尼加的 雷金纳德·加里古-拉格朗日，远远超过其他人。 You know, my favorite theologian in the 20th century is the Dominican Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, by far.
他是圣托马斯的最佳诠释者，圣托马斯是奥古斯丁的最 佳诠释者，而奥古斯丁是旧约和新约的最佳诠释者。 He is the best expositor of St. Thomas, who's the best expositor of Augustine, who was the best expositor of the Old and New Testament.
我第二喜欢的是拉辛格，我认为他是新神学中最好的，是资源神学家中最好的。 My second favorite is Ratzinger, who I think is the best of the nouvelle theologie, the best of the ressourcement theologians.
我认为德吕巴克很出色，我从他那里学到了很多 ，但当涉及到自然和恩典时，我认为他是错的。 I think that de Lubach is brilliant, I have learned so much from him, but when it comes to nature and grace, I think that he's wrong.
但出于所有正确的理由，因为他想用旧的和新的重 新历史化，许多本来会成为自然恩典的抽象类别。 But for all the right reasons, because he wants to re-historicize with the old and the new, so much of what would have become abstract categories of nature grace.
同样，Donyalew和Congar，我会说马特·莱弗林正在做的事情，他是一 个亲密的朋友，一个伟大的学者和一个非常多产的作家，他正在做资源托马斯主义。 Likewise, Donyalew and Congar, I would say what Matt Levering is doing, he's a dear friend and a great scholar and a very prolific writer, he's doing ressourcement tomism.
托马斯主义是名词。 Tomism is the noun.
资源是修饰语。 Ressourcement is the modifier.
通过回到源头，重新发现了许多真理。 There is so much truth that is rediscovered by going back to the sources.
虽然，如果你回到1800年代，你会发现托马斯主义者，如弗朗西连和其他人，正 在做与德吕巴克、Congar和Danielou相同的事情，只是做得更好。 Although, if you go back to the 1800s, you'll discover that the Thomists, like Franzilien and others, were doing the same thing that the Lubach and Congar and Danielou were doing, only better.
但我不认为这是非此即彼的选择。 But I don't think it's an either-or.
我认为如果你将资源神学从属于阿奎那的常青哲学 ，你将最终拥有最快乐和最富有成果的智力结合。 I think if you subordinate Re Source Mont theology to the perennial philosophy of Aquinas, you're going to end up with the happiest and most fruitful intellectual marriage you can have.
谢谢。 Thank you.
Dennis Vu说，汉恩博士，你的一位前学生向你问好。 Dennis Vu says, Dr. Hahn, hi from one of your former students.
向丹尼斯问好。 Hello to Dennis.
我们几乎每周都发短信。 We text almost every week.
哦，真的吗？ Oh, really?
他说，你能评论一下参加拉丁弥撒对你有什么影响吗？ He says, can you comment on what attending the Latin Mass has done for you?
我每天都参加。 I attend daily.
这如何改变了你的祷告生活和对神圣礼仪的看法？ How has this changed your prayer life and perspective of the sacred liturgy?
好的。 All right.
首先，每一个有效的弥撒都是人间的天堂。 First of all, every valid Mass is heaven on earth.
它是取之不尽的，每一个有效的弥撒，无论是新礼弥撒还是传统拉丁弥撒。 It's inexhaustible, every valid Mass, Novus Ordo or the traditional Latin Mass.
我在新礼弥撒中更自在，因为多年来那是我所知道的一切。 I am more at home in the Novus Ordo because for so many years that's all I knew.
那是我所有堂区所做的。 That's all my parishes did.
但我必须承认，周日中午在我们堂区参加传统拉丁弥撒是具有变革性的。 But I must admit that going to the traditional Latin Mass at our parish at noon on Sunday has been transformative.
我对那种存在了1500多年的东西有优先选择。 And I have a preferential option for that which has been around for more than 1500 years.
我们正在做一些有效的实验，在60年代编造圣餐祷文，在70年代将其正典化。 We're doing something that is a valid experiment, concocting Eucharistic prayers In the 60s, canonizing them in the 70s.
但我不禁想知道Lex Orundi, Lex Credendi是否是真的。 But I can't help but wonder if Lex Orundi, Lex Credendi is true.
Lex Orundi，祈祷的法则，敬拜的法则是Lex Crede ndi，信仰的法则的基础，也是Lex Vendi，即生命的法则。 Lex Orundi, the law of prayer, the law of worship is the basis for Lex Credendi, the law of belief, but also Lex Vendi, that is the law of life.
如果你可以随意摆弄和改变它，你会设定一种情感，期望得出结论，我们可以改变教义。 If you can just tinker with this and change it, you're going to set an emotion, expectations that will Conclude, well, we can change the doctrine.
我们也可以改变道德。 We can change the morals as well.
这似乎就是发生的事情。 That seems to be what's happened.
是的，所以我会说我们必须肯定新礼弥撒的有效性，并承认它是取之不尽的。 Yeah, and so I would say we've got to affirm the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass and recognize it is inexhaustible.
我认为我们也可以承认拉丁弥撒的客观优越性，而不必成为疯狂的传统主义者。 I think we can also recognize the objective superiority of the Latin Mass without becoming mad trads.
多年来我认识的大多数激进传统主义者都很愤怒。 Most of the rad trads I've known over the years are angry.
我形容自己是一个快乐的传统主义者，一个特伦特五旬节派，一个分层主义者。 I describe myself as a Glad Trad, as a Trentocostal, as a Stratasmatic.
我是一个天主教徒，所以…… I'm a Catholic, and so...
你要写一本包含所有这些双关语的新书。 You're going to write a new book with all of these puns.
嗯，以上都是。 Well, it's all of the above.
我们不必屈服于宗派冲动，认为这一运动将拯救教会。 We don't have to give in to the sectarian impulse to say that this one movement is going to save the Church.
不，弥撒将拯救教会。 No, the Mass will save the Church.
然而，它在东方礼仪或多米尼加礼仪中有效地庆祝。 However, it's celebrated validly in the Eastern Rites or in the Dominican Rite.
我想问你，你认为在这场年轻人渴望从未给予他们的遗产的新运动中有什么积极的？ I wanted to ask you, what do you see as positive in this new movement of young people desiring the heritage that was never given them?
我们应该注意什么？ What should we be careful of?
我想你已经在暗示这一点并变得愤怒。 And I think you're already alluding to it and becoming angry.
嗯，我认为他们对老一代人说得对，看，你们最终拒绝了一 些东西，那就是传统的拉丁弥撒和随之而来的所有东西。 Well, I think they're rightly saying to the older generation, look, you ended up rejecting something, and that is the traditional Latin mass and all of that went with it.
我们没有选择。 We don't have the choice.
我的意思是，在某种意义上，你放弃了一些你觉得可能是劣等的或其他什么，过时的东西。 I mean, in a certain sense, you abandoned something that you felt perhaps was inferior or whatever, outmoded.
但我认为下一代正在崛起并说，你知道，给我们一个机会。 But I think the next generation is coming up and saying, you know, give us a chance.
让我们接触它。 Expose it to it.
让我们接触到那个。 Let us be exposed to that.
当他们接触到时，我认为60年代、70年代、80年代到 90年代的所有时尚，我的意思是，时尚只是一天的缩写。 And when they are, I think all of the fads of the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, into the 90s, I mean, fad is just an acronym for a day.
而且，你知道，所以我认为有很多礼仪时尚。 And, you know, And so I think that there have been a lot of liturgical fads.
你知道，我听说有一位神父在描述69年伍德斯托克之后的大麻弥撒。 You know, I was hearing about one priest was describing a marijuana mass in 69 after Woodstock.
是的，我们也听说过小丑弥撒和其他事情。 Yeah, and we heard about clown masses and other things too.
所以我只是觉得让实验消亡，你知道，让新礼弥撒继续，让我 们在圣彼得教堂上午10点的弥撒中为此做好准备。这很美。 And so I just feel like let the experimentation die out, you know, and let the Novus Ordo continue and let us prepare for it at our mass 10 a.m. at St. Peter's. It's beautiful.
这很美。 It's beautiful.
这是面向东方的。 It's ad orientum.
我们有拉丁文。 We have the Latin.
圣坛栏杆。 The altar rails.
是的，我们也在圣坛栏杆上跪着领受。 Yes, and we receive on our knees at the altar rail as well.
所以对我来说，确实有一个可以完成并且应该完成的光辉汇合。 And so to me, there really is a glorious convergence that can be done and that should be done.
我认为这需要下一代的神父，因为我不能代表我的两个神学院学生儿子发言，但我感 觉他们和他们的同学是开放的，如果不是渴望的话，去适当地结合这两种流派，你知 道，我在匹兹堡长大，三河体育场，莫农加希拉河，阿勒格尼河汇成俄亥俄河。 I think it will take the next generation of priests, because I can't speak for my two seminarian sons, but I get a sense that they and their classmates are open, if not eager, to sort of appropriate both streams and make it, you know, I grew up in Pittsburgh, Three Rivers Stadium, the Monongahela, the Allegheny becomes the Ohio River.
现在我住在俄亥俄河旁边。 Now I live alongside of the Ohio River.
我感觉我住在新礼弥撒和拉丁弥撒在一个美丽、赋予生命的方式中汇合的地方。 And I feel as though I live where the confluence of the Novus Ordo and the Latin come together in a beautiful, life-giving way.
谢谢你，丹尼斯。 Thank you, Dennis.
是的，有很多人就像，快乐的传统主义者，崛起吧！ Yeah, there's a lot of people who are like, Glad Trads, rise!
从某种意义上说，重新获得一个从未属于你的传统是有些尴尬的，因为你没有被给予它。 In a sense, there's an awkwardness in reclaiming a tradition that was never yours because you weren't given it.
这几乎就像去古董店买一些美丽的东西，但它不是真的属于你的，它是别人的。所以我认为 我们在年轻的天主教徒中看到的那种尴尬，包括我自己在内，对传统超级兴奋，就是这样。 It's almost like going to an antique store And buying something beautiful, but it's not really yours, it's somebody else's. And so I think that awkwardness that we're seeing among younger Catholics, myself included, who are super excited about tradition, is just that.
当它成为第二天性时会很好。 It's going to be nice to see when it becomes second nature.
这是一个很好的比喻。 It's a good analogy.
谢谢。 Thank you.
是的，因为，你知道，成长中…… Yeah, because, you know, growing up...
我希望我有它。 I wish I had it.
我希望有人让我接触到玫瑰经，接触到香。 I wish somebody had exposed me to the rosary, to the incense.
我希望他们没有试图成为…… I wish they didn't try to be...
我不是在这里制造一个错误的二分法。 I'm not making a false dichotomy here.
我不是说你可以选择一个草率的新礼弥撒或一个美丽的特伦特弥撒。 I'm not saying you can either have a sloppy Novus Order or a beautiful Tridentine Mass.
当然，你可以同时拥有这两者，但我希望有人向我展示过这一点。 Of course, you can have both of each, but I wish somebody had exposed that to me.
在其他地方我看到的是不敬。 Everywhere else I see irreverence.
在宗教中看到深深的敬意会很好。 It would be nice to see deep reverence in the religion.
这是一个我们永远无法回答的问题，那就是，如果所 有这些激进传统主义者都长大了，会是什么样子？ Here's a question we can never answer, and that is, what would it have been like if all of these Rad Trads had grown up?
只有拉丁文，只有家庭玫瑰经。 Only with the Latin, and only with the family rosary.
我的意思是，他们会不会经历一个青春期，在那里他们 也会更喜欢他们成长的任何十年的时尚，你知道吗？ I mean, would they have gone through an adolescent phase where they too would have preferred the fads of whatever decade they were raised in, you know?
所以，我不认为责备游戏是任何一方会赢的东西。 And so, I don't think that the blame game is something that either side will win.
我只是认为我们必须做的是说，是的，是的。 I just think that what we have to do is say, yes and yes.
是的，你知道，两者兼有是拉丁文，是天主教的说法。 Yes, you know, both hand is the Latin, is the Catholic phrase.
这是另一个问题给你。 Here's another question for you.
我认为有很多人，包括我自己在内，曾经一段时间感觉像个难民。 I think there are a lot of people who, and I was one of these for a while, felt like a bit of a refugee.
我住在亚特兰大，周围的许多堂区，圣弥撒并没有以很大的敬意来庆 祝，所以我最终去了一个拜占庭教堂，因为在那里我找到了敬意。 I lived in Atlanta and many of the parishes around me, the Holy Mass wasn't celebrated with a great deal of reverence and so I ended up going to a Byzantine church because it was there that I found reverence.
但我认为那里也可能有危险，我不确定。 But I think maybe there's a danger there too and I'm not sure.
我想知道自然的虔诚是否应该引导我们成为我们自己遗产的一部分 ，而不是迅速将其搁置并采用某种鲁塞尼亚传统或类似的东西。 I wonder if natural piety should lead us to Want to be a part of our own heritage and not to quickly set it aside and adopt some sort of Ruthenian traditions or something like that.
你对此有任何担忧吗，或者并不是真的？ Do you have any concerns about that or not really?
那位澳大利亚圣人是谁？ Who's the Australian saint again?
那是圣玛丽·麦基洛普。 That is St. Mary MacKillop.
你在我们开始之前告诉我，她与主教的关系如何？ And you were telling me before we started that she was, what was her relationship with the bishop like?
据我了解，我得查一下以确保所有细节正确，所以如果我弄错了， 我很抱歉，但我相信圣玛丽·麦基洛普被阿德莱德主教绝罚，我认 为这有一些深刻的天主教意义，尤其是如果我们想成为圣人。 My understanding, I've got to look this up to get all the details right, so I apologize if I'm getting it wrong, but I believe St. Mary MacKillop was excommunicated by the Bishop of Adelaide I think there's something profoundly Catholic about that, especially if we want to become saints.
这不像是水门事件那样的掩盖，而是像圣荷西玛利亚指 出的那样，闪和雅弗倒退着走进去遮盖挪亚的赤身。 It's not like a cover-up a la Watergate, but it is like Shem and Japheth walking in backwards to cover the nakedness of Noah, as St. Josemaria points out.
我必须承认，主业会一直是我在以色列的部落。 And I must admit, Opus Dei has been my tribe in Israel.
当他们进行新礼弥撒时，因为我从未见过他们进行传统拉 丁弥撒，它是如此美丽，如此神圣，如此敬畏和超越。 When they do the Novus Ordo, because I've never seen them do the traditional Latin Mass, it is so beautiful, it is so sacred, it is so reverent and transcendent.
但另一方面，我必须承认，当我在密尔沃基成为天主教徒时，你可以去，那是围绕祭坛的。 But on the other hand, I must admit that when I was in Milwaukee becoming a Catholic, you could go and it was ring around the altar.
我记得在圣贞德的小教堂里，我们被神父命令站在祭坛周围。 I remember in the chapel of St. Joan of Arc where we were commanded by the priest to stand around the altar.
我悄悄溜了出去，但我记得那几个尴尬的时刻，我们就随便应付一下。 I quietly slipped out, but I remember just those few awkward moments where Let's just kind of wing it.
所以我在80年代参加过许多礼仪，所有的实验仍在进行，我只是在想，你知 道，如果你必须为此放弃你的职业，我不认为你会觉得如此舒适地随便涉猎。 And so I've been in many liturgies in the 80s where all of the experimentation was still going on, and I'm just thinking, you know, if you had to give up your career for this, I don't think you would feel so comfortable just kind of dabbling.
我不想评判他们的内心，但同时，弥撒的客观现实，当它按 照礼仪规则庆祝时，带着敬意，你知道，它就是如此惊人。 I don't want to judge their hearts, but at the same time, the objective reality of the Mass, when it's celebrated according to the rubrics, with reverence, You know, it just is so amazing.
最后一个想法。 One last thought.
我刚刚和一位亲爱的朋友，一个前学生交谈，他在过去两年里一直在庆祝传 统拉丁弥撒，他在描述第一次，当它结束后他回到圣器室，为一些加尔默罗 修女唱了它，修女长回来，他只是说，这是我一生中最快乐的一天，因为我 从未在弥撒中消失过，我和你们，所有的修女一起，我能够敬拜我们的主。 I was just talking to a dear friend, a former student, who's been celebrating the traditional Latin Mass for the last two years, and he was describing the first time, and he went back into the sacristy after it was done, sang it for some Carmelites, and the Mother Superior came back, and he just said, this is the single most joyful day of my life, because I have never been at Mass where I disappeared, where I was joined with you, all of the sisters, And I was able to worship our Lord.
这不是我的个性。 It wasn't my personality.
这不是我的口音。 It wasn't my accent.
这不是任何属于我的东西。 It wasn't anything that was me.
我消失了，这是我一生中最快乐的一天。 I disappeared, and this is the single most joyful day of my life.
不过，你对一个可能会说，我只想去拜占庭天主教堂的天主教徒有什么建议吗？ Do you have any advice, though, for a Catholic who might say, I just want to go to a Byzantine Catholic church?
也许可以说是放弃西方遗产。 And maybe kind of abandon the Western heritage, as it were.
嗯，我的意思是，快速的建议是当我自己考虑这个问题时给我的，去拜占庭天主教。 Well, I mean, the quick advice was what was given to me when I was thinking about that myself, going Byzantine Catholic.
你知道，我的神父朋友说，看，你是一个西方人，你知道，德国人和英国人，金伯利也是。 You know, my priest friend said, look, you are a Westerner, you know, German and English, and so is Kimberly.
你把这个强加给她是不公平的。 It's not fair for you to impose that on her.
我的意思是，改变信仰是一回事。 I mean, it's one thing to change faith.
改变文化是另一回事。 It's another thing to change culture.
但他也指出，你知道，到处逛，到处找教会是你新教主义的遗迹。 But he also pointed out that, you know, To shop around, to do church shopping is such a vestige of your Protestantism.
寻找最奇异的咖啡混合，这可以理解。 To find the most exotic blend of coffee, that's understandable.
但要找到最奇异的礼仪混合，那是你自己背景的主观主义，你的新教主义。 But to find the most exotic blend of liturgy, that is the subjectivism of your own background, your Protestantism.
我只是认为你应该在你被种植的地方开花。 I just think that you bloom where you're planted.
你就是你。 You are who you are.
如果你在美国，你就是西方的一部分，无论好坏，西方并不比东方差。 If you're in America, you're part of the West, for better or worse, and the Occidental is not inferior to the Oriental.
无论你听到什么，确实有一种感觉，双肺呼吸并不偏袒右边而不是左边。 No matter what you hear, there really is a sense in which breathing with both lungs doesn't privilege the right over the left.
这很有帮助。 That's helpful.
汉恩博士，这真是太高兴了，我迫不及待想让你回到节 目中，特别是因为你现在就在路上，所以这会很容易。 Dr. Hahn, this has been an absolute pleasure, and I cannot wait to have you back on the show, especially because you're up the road now, so it'll be very easy.
告诉大家他们如何能更多地了解你，比如圣保罗圣经中心。 Tell folks how they can learn more about you, the St. Paul Biblical Center, for example.
嗯，二十年前，金伯林和我创立了圣保罗圣经神学中心。 Well, 20 years ago, Kimberlin and I founded the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology.
可以在ststpaulcenter.com找到。 It's available at ststpaulcenter.com.
我们的使命是真正教导天主教徒从教会的核心阅读圣经。 And we really had this mission of teaching Catholics to read the Bible from the heart of the church.
为平信徒提供圣经素养，为我们的神职人员和教育工作者提供圣经流利度。 Biblical literacy for lay people, biblical fluency for our clergy and for our educators as well.
但只是爱上我们的主，并以礼仪方式阅读圣经，以圣经术语体验礼仪。 But just falling in love with our Lord and also reading the scripture liturgically to experience the liturgy in biblical terms.
确实有一种一手洗另一手的感觉。 That there is really a kind of one hand washing the other.
当这种情况发生时，我们发现的就像在往以马忤斯的路上，当 圣经被打开时，我们的心不是在我们里面燃烧吗，但总是指向 信仰之眼的开启，以在圣餐饼的擘开中看到基督的真实临在。 And when that happens, what we find is just like on the road to Emmaus, Did not our hearts burn within us as the Scriptures were opened, but always ordered to the opening of the eyes of faith to the real presence of Christ in the breaking of the Eucharistic bread.
所以我写了很多书，我不会详细说那些，但如今我几乎专门与以马忤斯 路出版社和以马忤斯学术合作，它们是圣保罗中心的两个出版部门。 And so I've done a number of books, I won't go into those, but nowadays I'm really working almost exclusively with Emmaus Road Publishing and Emmaus Academic, which are the two publishing arms of the St. Paul Center.
我一直在学习很多好书。 And there are so many good books that I've been learning.
我刚刚与以马忤斯路签署了关于那本阿奎那书的合同，所以谢谢你。 And I just signed a contract with Emmaus Road for that Aquinas book, so thank you.
感谢神。 Thanks be to God.
好的，非常感谢你来到这里。 Alright, well thanks so much for being here.
哦，多么快乐。 Oh, what a joy.
谢谢。 Thank you.