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Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.07,0:00:01.27,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}欢迎再次来到 Shameless Popery。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Welcome back to Shameless Popery.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:01.27,0:00:16.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我叫乔·赫施迈尔，今天想来探讨一个观点：那些新教改革者——我会特别谈到路德、加尔\N文和诺克斯，原因很快就会显现——他们究竟是不是我们所认为的那种毫不妥协的人物。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm Joe Heschmeier, and I want to address today this idea that the Protestant Reformers—I'm going to focus particularly on Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox for reasons that will become clear very soon—whether they really are the sort of uncompromising figures we think of them as.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.84,0:00:29.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因为有人认为，这些人相当勇敢，能在合宜和不合宜的时候宣讲福音——或者说他们所\N理解的福音——无论这样做对他们的事业有利或有害，甚至可能让他们付出生命代价。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Because there's this idea that these are people who are bold enough to proclaim the Gospel—or their version of the Gospel—in season and out of season, whether it helped their cause or whether it hurt them or even put their life at risk.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.32,0:00:34.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，我这里并不讨论他们信仰的对错问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So I'm not addressing here the question of whether they're right or wrong about their beliefs.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.76,0:00:36.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这个我们留到以后再说。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We'll leave that for another day.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.33,0:00:52.41,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我想特别谈一谈有关他们的圣徒传记式描述：把他们看作那些在\N宣讲福音时毫不妥协、毫不退缩的伟大圣徒，这确实是一个在新\N教中很流行的观点，而且我也能理解为什么这么多人这样看。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I want to particularly address sort of the hagiography around them: this idea of them as these great saints who are uncompromising and unflinching in their proclamation of the Gospel, because that is a very popular Protestant view, and I can understand why it's held by so many.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:52.49,0:01:13.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}举个例子，福音派事工 G3 事工的负责人乔什·拜斯就会说类似这样的话\N：「我们可以肯定，路德、加尔文、诺克斯、丁道尔，以及宗教改革中的其他\N人物，都不会为了捍卫信仰而先算好职业发展或维护自己平台的得失。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, for instance, Josh Bice, the head of the evangelical ministry G3 Ministries, he can say things like, We can be certain that Luther, Calvin, Knox, Tyndale, and other figures of the Reformation were not making decisions about defending the faith by calculating their career advancement and protecting their platform.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.45,0:01:15.23,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「忠心的人会站出来。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Faithful men stand up.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:15.33,0:01:17.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「忠心的人会发声。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Faithful men speak up.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:17.35,0:01:27.61,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，我要说明的是，我赞同拜斯的态度：如同我之前提到的\N，用圣保罗的话来说，我们无论得时不得时，都该传讲福音。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, to be very clear, I agree with Bice's sentiment that we should, as I said before, preach the Gospel in season and out of season, to use St. Paul's expression.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.73,0:01:38.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但让我觉得有趣的是，有很多人会引用马丁·路德、约翰·加尔\N文、约翰·诺克斯据说那种毫不退缩的信念，来证明这个观点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But I'm fascinated by the number of people who try to prove that point by appealing to the alleged unflinching nature of the beliefs of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.40,0:03:39.22,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不管你喜欢他还是讨厌他，他确实有这种名声。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Whether you love him or hate him, this is kind of a reputation that he has.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.03,0:03:51.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}罗兰·拜顿在他的名著《Here I Stand: A Life o\Nf Martin Luther》里，引用了路德在沃姆斯会议上据说讲\N过的一句（或许是杜撰的）话，谈到了为什么他会被路德这样的人物吸引。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Roland Bainton, in his famous book Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther, using a maybe apocryphal line Luther is said to have used in the Diet of Worms, talked about what drew him to Luther as a figure.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:51.67,0:04:09.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他说有两件事尤其令他印象深刻：第一，路德愿意以理性和良心为\N名同时对抗教会和政府；第二，路德有过几次自我反省的时刻，在\N作出如此大胆的立场后，他要问自己：「难道只有你是对的吗？」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He said there were two things in particular: first, Luther's willingness to defy both church and state in the name of reason and conscience, and second, that he had these moments of kind of self-reflection where he had to afterwards ask himself after taking this bold stand, Are you alone right?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.01,0:04:15.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在需要抉择的时刻，他会先坚定地站稳脚跟，然后再重新说服自己。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In a moment calling for decision, he took a firm stand and then undertook to convince himself all over again.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.81,0:04:19.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是拜顿的观点——也是对路德很常见的一种看法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's Bainton's view—a very popular view of Luther.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.33,0:04:26.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}确实，如果你用特定的角度去读这段历史，会发现很多时刻似乎都能支持这种说法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And to be sure, there are plenty of moments that would kind of lend themselves to that, particularly if you read history a certain way.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.29,0:04:52.61,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，在许多展现马丁·路德伟大事迹的电影中，你会看到取材自沃姆\N斯会议的这些震撼场景，重点放在马丁·路德说的那番话：「我坚信圣\N经和纯粹的理性，而不是那些经常自相矛盾的教宗和教会会议。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So in many of the movies kind of made to show the amazingness of Martin Luther's life, you'll have these powerful scenes taken from the Diet of Worms, focusing on Martin Luther saying, I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.39,0:05:00.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「我的良心被神的道所俘获。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}My conscience is captive to the Word of God.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:00.39,0:05:08.51,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好的，单独看这段话，我觉得确实是他对自己立场毫不妥协的一个挺精彩的证明。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right, so taken in isolation, I think that's a pretty great-sounding testament to an unflinching belief in his own correctness.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.51,0:05:10.21,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}再说一次，你觉得这样是好，还是不好？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Again, what do you think that's good or bad?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:10.59,0:05:17.04,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}实际上，马丁·路德对究竟需要怎样的理由才能说服自己要谨慎得多。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The reality is that Martin Luther is a little cagier about what it would actually take to convince him.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.21,0:06:42.25,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「我的事业系于教宗陛下的意志，他的裁决可以救我，也可以要了我的命。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}My cause hangs on the will of Your Holiness, by whose verdict I shall either save or lose my life.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:42.27,0:06:50.09,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「无论结果如何，我都承认教宗陛下的声音就是基督借着您所说的话。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Come what may, I shall recognize the voice of Your Holiness to be that of Christ speaking through you.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.55,0:07:03.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，他公开宣称自己相信教宗制度是真实的，并且要信任教宗良十\N世来裁决他所处于的有关赎罪券的争议，这实在是相当大胆的表态。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So this is a pretty bold proclamation that he believes the papacy is true and that he's going to trust Pope Leo X to adjudicate this dispute that he's in the middle of on indulgences.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.30,0:07:08.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}随后又出现了一些私下的书信往来。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That is then followed by some private correspondence.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.08,0:07:23.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}到了下一年的一月，我们发现他写信给选侯腓特烈，谈到马吉斯特·斯帕拉廷（也就是那\N位德国神学家、路德宗的斯帕拉廷）提议把这件事交由萨尔茨堡大主教的德行来裁决。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}By January of the next year, we find him writing to the Elector Frederick about how Magister Spalatin (that's the German theologian and fellow Lutheran Spalatin) had proposed that the matter be referred to the virtue of the Archbishop of Salzburg.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:23.75,0:07:41.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也就是说，也许可以让萨尔茨堡大主教来解决，但他表示自己认为教宗不会容忍\N——不能让学者、平信徒以及在德意志土地上进行的这种审理来裁决这类事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So there's this idea maybe we have the Archbishop of Salzburg sort of resolve this, but he says he doesn't think the Pope would put up with—you can't have learned people and lay people and this trial on German soil adjudicating this sort of thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.06,0:07:45.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}路德和他的同伴想要这样做，但他认为教宗不会接受。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's what Luther and his allies are wanting, and he's like the Pope's not going to accept that.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:46.18,0:07:49.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}接着他又说：「我也不会服从教宗的裁决。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And then he says, And I too will not submit to the Pope's verdict.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:49.82,0:07:55.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这和他在上一年五月时说的完全相反，可谓大转变。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now that's quite a change from him saying the exact opposite in May of the prior year.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:55.88,0:08:03.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也就是说，这时候教宗还没有对这件事作出正式裁决，一切仍未定案。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So this is before the Pope has issued an actual verdict in the case, while this is still pending.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.17,0:08:12.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你会看到，一向被认为坚持原则、毫不动摇的路德，原本声称要信任\N教宗，因为教宗是教宗陛下，但转头就说自己不会听从教宗的意见。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You see principled, unchanging Luther going from saying he's going to trust whatever the Pope does because the Pope's the Holy Father to him saying he's not going to listen to what the Pope says.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:45.59,0:09:54.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他先承诺只要能够帮助自己，就会信任教宗；可是一\N旦发现并不如意，他就把谦卑姿态完全抛到脑后。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He promises to trust whatever the Pope says if he thinks it's going to help him, and once he realizes it's not going to help him, he just throws off the whole humility facade.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:54.30,0:10:09.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也许这样解读过于苛刻，但看看事件顺序：他先承诺信任教宗，随后又说不接受裁\N决，最终没有拿到自己想要的裁决，然后就公开宣称「我绝不会与罗马和解」。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, maybe that's too harsh of a read, but look at just the sequence of events: he promises to trust the Pope, he then says he's not going to accept the verdict, he doesn't get the verdict that he likes, and then he announces very clearly, I shall never be reconciled to Rome.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:09.63,0:10:27.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有人常说，哦，他非常努力想留在教会里，结果却被教会革除了，但事实并非如\N此——他做了些幼稚的事，比如拿着整部教会法典和他提到的教宗颁布的法令，\N以及他收到的《Exsurge Domine》和一堆其他资料来对抗。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Like, there's this popular image that, Oh, he tried really hard to stay in the Church and the Church has excommunicated him, but no—he's doing these childish things like taking the whole Code of Canon Law and the papal code that he refers to, and Exsurge Domine when he gets that, and a bunch of other things.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:27.88,0:10:35.69,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而在那年十二月，他和大学生们一起举行大型火堆，把这些各式各样的教会文件全都烧了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in December of that year, he has a big bonfire with the college students in which they burn all of these different Church documents.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:36.79,0:10:40.41,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这可不像是想要和教会和解的作法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's not someone trying to smooth things over with the Church.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:40.41,0:10:55.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以我把这个时间线摆在这儿：路德公开宣称自己将服从教宗的\N裁决——我是说，他当面对教宗这么说——然后在私下又表示不\N会接受教宗的裁决，甚至在私下暗示自己不想与教会和解。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So I listed the timeline right there: you've got Luther publicly declaring that he's going to follow the Pope's verdict—I mean, declaring it to the Pope—and then privately saying he's not going to accept the Pope's verdict, and then privately suggesting he doesn't want to reconcile with the Church.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.44,0:11:01.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这看起来并不像无论环境如何都能坚守的原则立场。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That doesn't look like a come what may, in-season and out-of-season principled position.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:01.30,0:11:04.15,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}倒更像是公开一套、私下又一套。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It looks like saying different things publicly than privately.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:04.43,0:11:16.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不过，人的看法确实会随时间改变，所以并不是没有可能在 1\N518 到 1520 之间，路德对教宗制度的态度恶化了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But understandably, people's views do change over time, so it's not completely infeasible that between 1518 and 1520, Luther's views on the papacy soured.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:16.30,0:11:18.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这完全是合理的推断。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's a completely reasonable proposition.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:18.62,0:11:22.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我认可这一点确实有所改变，而且我想在此特别指出。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'll accept that there certainly is a change, and I just wanted to highlight that.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:22.88,0:11:28.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在我想把焦点放在更短的一段时间里——不是两年，而是大约一周之内。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now I want to focus on a much narrower span of time—not two years, but really the span of about a week.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.45,0:11:31.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因为这时《Exsurge Domine》已经到达了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Because now you've got the arrival of Exsurge Domine.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:31.85,0:11:38.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在是 1520 年的十月。路德于 10 月 10 日收到了这份文书。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So we're now in October of 1520. Luther receives the document on October 10th.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:38.96,0:11:46.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这再次说明当时的传递需要多长时间。它是在 6 月 15\N 日颁布的，却直到 10 月 10 日才送达他手上。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Again, this gives you some idea of how long it takes things to arrive, because it was released on June 15th, it doesn't get to him until October 10th.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:46.80,0:11:52.13,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，这整个过程之所以这么缓慢，主要就是因为邮递速度并不快。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So one reason this whole process is as slow as it is is just because mail is not fast.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:52.87,0:11:57.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在 10 月 10 日那天，他收到了那道教\N宗诏令，指出教宗在某些事上与他意见相左。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}On October 10th, he gets the papal bull saying that the Pope disagrees with him on certain things.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:57.71,0:12:10.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在 10 月 11 日，他再次写信给乔治·斯帕拉廷，告诉对方这道诏令定罪了基\N督本身——他不仅仅是说诏令定罪了他对经文的看法，而是说诏令定罪了基督本身。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}On October 11th, again to George Spalatin, he tells him this bull condemns Christ himself—like he doesn't just say it condemns his view of Scripture, he says it condemns Christ himself.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.96,0:12:35.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}接着他表示，尽管他相信那文件确实是由良十世签署，但他会假装认定那是伪造\N的——也就是说，他会在公开场合装作他认为那是伪文件，虽然他有充分理由相\N信此文确出自良十世。他就这样做了；他假称自己不确定教宗是否真的写了它。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Then he says he's going to act on the assumption that it is spurious because he thinks it is genuine—in other words, he's going to publicly pretend he thinks that this is a forgery, even though he has good reason to believe it is actually from Leo X. And he does that; he pretends he doesn't know whether the Pope really wrote it.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:35.29,0:12:40.93,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}随后他又感叹，神圣罗马皇帝并没有因教宗与他持异见而武力对抗教宗。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He then laments that the Holy Roman Emperor doesn't take up arms against the Pope for disagreeing with him.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:40.93,0:12:44.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他说：「但愿查理是一位能为基督而与这些『圣者』对抗的主。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He said, Would that Charles were a man and would fight for Christ against these saints.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.29,0:12:51.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}接着他在同一封信中说：「我如今更加感到自由，因为我已经确信教宗就是敌基督。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And then he says in the same letter, I feel much freer now that I am certain the Pope is Antichrist.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.38,0:12:59.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是非常关键的：现在是 1520 年 10 月 \N11 日，马丁·路德已经认定教宗的确是敌基督。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is really important: it's October 11th, 1520, and Martin Luther has decided the Pope is actually Antichrist.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:03.94,0:13:28.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}到了 1520 年年底，他将发表他所称的「Guincy Expertable B\Nowl of Antichrist」，指责教宗良十世是敌基督，并在公开场合谴责说\N：「我呼吁你放弃你那邪恶的亵渎与胆大妄为的不敬，若你拒不悔改，我们就要奉你所迫害\N的耶稣基督之名，一致认定你的位子被撒但所占据和压制，为那敌基督的受咒诅之座。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}By the end of 1520, he's going to launch what he calls a Guincy Expertable Bowl of Antichrist where he attacks Pope Leo as being Antichrist and publicly denounces him, saying, I call upon you to renounce your diabolical blasphemy and audacious impiety, and if you will not, we shall all hold your seat as possessed and oppressed by Satan, the damned seat of Antichrist in the name of Jesus Christ, whom you persecute.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:40.01,0:13:43.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}把这一点跟他同时期向教宗公开所说的话对比看看。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Contrast that with what he is publicly telling the Pope at the same time.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:44.23,0:14:00.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在 10 月 13 日，也就是他在私人信件中斥责教宗为敌基督仅仅两天后，他写\N信给教宗良十世，语气里假意恭维：「我声明，我从不知自己曾说过不敬于您的话。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}On October 13th, just two days after his private letter where he denounces the Pope as Antichrist, he writes to Pope Leo X in this false, flattering tone: I declare that I'm not aware of ever having spoken of you except with great respect.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:01.63,0:14:15.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不管你喜欢教宗良十世也好，讨厌他也好，不管你相信教宗是敌\N基督还是不信，至少我们能看到，这样的举动并不是一个人在合\N宜或不合宜的时机都坚持同一种立场，向权威说真话的态度吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Whether you love Pope Leo X or hate him, whether you believe the Pope is the Antichrist or not, can we at least acknowledge that this is not someone holding to a view in season and out of season and speaking truth to power?
Dialogue: 0,0:14:15.48,0:14:22.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他不过是根据自身的需要，跟不同群体说那些对方想听的话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is someone saying to different groups of people what he thinks they're going to want to hear as it suits him.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:28.86,0:14:40.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}接下来我们再来看看，因为他在写给教宗良十世的信中确实提到\N，他想将自己的状况上诉到一个普遍性的基督徒会议去裁决。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Let's then transition from that because in his correspondence to Pope Leo X, he does say to him that he wants to appeal his judgment to that of a general Christian council.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.97,0:14:49.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}换句话说，他认为这事最终不是由他起初所宣称\N的教宗来解决，而是要由一个大公会议来审理。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In other words, he's of the view that this will be settled not by the Pope as he originally claimed, but instead he'll listen to an ecumenical council.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:50.71,0:14:52.71,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在他有生之年，他并没有得到一个大公会议的正式审理。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He doesn't get an ecumenical council in his lifetime.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.71,0:14:57.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}最终，特伦托大公会议对他的教导作出了正式结论，认定他在大公层面上也是错误的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Eventually, the Council of Trent will resolve that he was wrong as well at an ecumenical council.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:57.53,0:15:02.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但在此之前，他的确前往了沃姆斯的帝国议会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But before that, he does go to the Imperial Diet or court in Worms.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:02.48,0:15:08.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在那里，你会听到你之前也许听过的那段名言，但现在要用新的角度去思考。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And there you have that quote that you heard before, but now think about it in a new light.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:08.00,0:15:15.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}马丁·路德先是宣称自己希望由教宗来裁决，接着又\N说：「不，我不在乎了，我想由大公会议来裁决。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Here's Martin Luther who first declared he wanted to be judged by the Pope, and then declared, No, never mind, I want to be judged by an ecumenical council.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:15.02,0:15:21.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在他却站出来说，一旦他意识到教宗或会议都不会\N如他所愿，「我不接受教宗和大公会议的权威。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now standing up and saying, once he realizes neither is going to go in his favor, I do not accept the authority of popes and councils.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:22.57,0:15:29.91,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}朋友，你就是那个提议让教宗和大公会议来裁断这件事的人，现在却说你不相信那些东西？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}My man, you were the one who suggested we adjudicate this with popes and councils, and now you're saying you don't believe in those things?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:30.07,0:15:39.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，你可以看到他对教宗权威的立场出现了大逆转，也能看到他\N对良十世的看法和对良十世所说的话之间存在明显不诚实的矛盾。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So you can see this reversal on papal authority, a total dishonesty about his view on Leo X and what he says about Leo compared to what he says to Leo.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:39.94,0:15:52.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}接着，他对大公会议所扮演的角色也出现了全然的反转，就在 152\N0 到 1521 年之间——连一年都不到，差不多只有半年而已。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And then you have this total reversal on the role of ecumenical councils, just between 1520 and 1521—not even in the span of a year, but the span of about half a year.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:52.53,0:15:55.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他对大公会议的权威来了个一百八十度大转弯。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He does this 180 on the authority of ecumenical councils.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.27,0:16:08.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有些人会说：「哦，路德的观点在不断演变」，但从这些事实来看，\N要把他视作一个坚定不移、毫不退缩、始终如一的人，似乎很难。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}People will say, Oh, Luther's views were evolving, but it's hard to see in this someone of unbreakable, unflinching bravery and consistency or any of those things.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:08.46,0:16:16.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}再说一次，显然我是从非路德宗的角度来看，但这\N些事情让我对普遍流传的关于他的说法产生疑问。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So again, I mean obviously I'm coming at that as a non-Lutheran, but those are just things that make me question the popular narrative about him.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:16.14,0:16:17.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}关于马丁·路德就先说到这里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So much for Martin Luther.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.80,0:16:21.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我现在想把话题转到一位知名度较低的人物：约翰·诺克斯。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I want to turn to a much lesser-known figure now: John Knox.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:21.16,0:16:31.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我打算让麦克·根德隆来向你们简单介绍一下诺克斯，只是先说明一下，他是\N位苏格兰的加尔文派人士，在苏格兰长老会的建立中有非常重要的影响力。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm going to let Mike Gendron kind of introduce you to John Knox, except to say that he's a Scottish Calvinist who's really influential in the creation of Presbyterianism in Scotland.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:31.75,0:16:42.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我很喜欢的一幅画面，是约翰·诺克斯在圣安德鲁主教座\N堂首次讲道，题目是《但以理书》第7章24至25节。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}One of my favorite pictures of John Knox preaching his first sermon is on Daniel Chapter 7, verses 24 to 25, at St. Andrew's Cathedral.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.32,0:16:51.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他的讲道谴责罗马所传的假福音，并宣称教宗是敌基督，弥撒是偶像崇拜。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}His preaching denounced Rome's false gospel and pronounced the Pope to be Antichrist and the Mass to be idolatrous.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.38,0:16:53.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}真是非常大胆。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Very bold.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.52,0:16:57.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以这就正是人们眼中约翰·诺克斯的样子：无论你爱他还是恨他，他的确是十分大胆。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that is very much the popular image of John Knox: love him or hate him, this guy is very bold.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:57.88,0:17:01.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他什么都敢说，因为他相信那是神的道。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He'll say whatever because he believes it's the Word of God.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:06.17,0:17:11.54,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}据说有这样一个时刻：他被法国人俘虏时，对方拿来一座马利亚雕像要他敬奉。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So there's this moment where he's captured by the French and he's offered the statue of Mary to venerate.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:11.54,0:17:15.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}相反，他却以一种激烈的方式加以抗拒。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Instead, he acts against it with this extreme reaction.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:15.66,0:17:26.09,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}法国方面竭力想把约翰·诺克斯重新带回罗马公\N教会的信仰中，甚至要他亲吻圣马利亚的塑像。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The French tried desperately to convert John Knox back to Roman Catholicism, even attempting to have him kiss the statue of the Virgin Mary.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:26.73,0:17:34.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而约翰·诺克斯坚决拒绝，说：「这样的偶像被咒诅」，并把那雕像扔下船。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Instead, John Knox resolutely refused and said, Such an idol is accursed, and he threw it overboard.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.10,0:17:40.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}显然，约翰·诺克斯痛恨宗教图像和雕像，视其为偶像。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Apparently, John Knox hated the idea of religious images and statues, regarding them as idols.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:40.88,0:17:46.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，新教徒也向他致敬，在瑞士日内瓦为他树立了一座巨大的雕像。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So of course, Protestants have honored him by creating a giant statue of him in Geneva, Switzerland.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.98,0:17:49.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}然而正如麦克·詹纳所指出的，这其实有点讽刺。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But as Mike Jenner will point out, that's not quite right.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:49.96,0:17:51.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}事实上，他们给他立了两尊雕像。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They actually made two statues of him.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:52.16,0:17:59.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}约翰·诺克斯成了这座纪念碑上唯一一个被塑了\N两次像的人——不仅在这里，还有在墙外面。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}John Knox is the only man that's mounted twice on the monument—not only here but outside of this wall.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.89,0:18:06.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你会看到另一面墙向外延伸约三百二十五英尺，他的塑像也在那里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You see another wall extending 325 feet, and he also appears there.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:06.05,0:18:09.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}显然，在他看来，这样的宗教雕像对他来说没问题，但对其他人就不行。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Apparently, religious statues are okay for me but not for thee.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:10.33,0:18:16.93,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我要说的并不是约翰·诺克斯对圣马利亚的憎恶，而是他对玛丽女王的敌意。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But it's actually not John Knox's antipathy towards the Virgin Mary I want to talk about—it's his antipathy towards Queen Mary.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:17.09,0:18:27.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果你不熟悉这段历史，亨利八世去世后，他的儿子爱德华六世在少年\N时就去世了，这就使得都铎王朝以及英格兰王位面临相当危险的局面。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If you're not familiar, Henry VIII dies, his son Edward VI dies as a teenager, and so that leaves the Tudor Dynasty and the English Crown in precarious hands.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:29.20,0:18:37.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}一开始，王位并没有传给另一名男性，而是由亨利八世与阿拉贡的凯瑟琳所生的女儿继承。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}At first, the crown goes not to another male but to Henry VIII's daughter with Queen Catherine of Aragon.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:37.62,0:18:47.03,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}还记得为什么英国圣公会的改革会发生？主要就是因为亨\N利八世认为自己需要一个儿子来延续都铎王朝的血脉。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Remember the whole controversy over why the Anglican Reformation happens in the first place is because Henry VIII thought he needed to have a son to pass on the Tudor lineage.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.33,0:18:58.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}结果，他的儿子还没到二十岁就过世了，而都铎的家业反正还是传给了一\N个女子——也就是那个若是一开始就不与妻子离婚，本可在身边的女儿。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Then his son dies before reaching even the age of 20, and the Tudor lineage passes on to a woman anyway—the daughter he could have had if he had just never divorced his wife in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:01.61,0:19:10.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那位女儿就是玛丽一世女王，她因为是公教徒，并且\N常以强硬方式打击新教，所以也被新教徒所厌恶。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That daughter was Queen Mary I, who was loathed by Protestants because she was Catholic and because she fought against Protestantism often violently.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:10.05,0:19:17.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}她被冠上了「血腥玛丽」这样不公平的称呼，但当时\N无论新教还是公教会的领袖都经常依赖世俗武力。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}She was given the unfair nickname Bloody Mary at a time when both Protestant and Catholic leaders often used civil force.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:17.89,0:19:23.19,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}还记得加尔文曾谈到，为何由国家来惩处异端在他看来是正当的吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Remember John Calvin talking about why it's okay for the state to do that in punishing heretics?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:23.25,0:19:26.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}显然，又是「自己能这样做，别人却不可以」。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Apparently, again, it's okay for me and not for thee.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:27.13,0:19:36.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对此，约翰·诺克斯大发抨击，但并不只是因为她\N是公教徒——更主要的是，他不喜欢她身为女性。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Against this, John Knox rails, but not just because he doesn't like that she is a Catholic—specifically, he does not like that she's a woman.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:36.24,0:19:46.63,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，他在 1557 年写了一篇文章或论文，名\N为《反对女人怪异政体（政府）的第一声号角》。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so he writes in 1557 an essay or treatise called The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment (meaning government) of women.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:47.75,0:19:54.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他在其中直言，女人在任何环境下担任领导职位，在神面前都是可憎的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's just him announcing that it is abominable before God for a woman to lead in any kind of context.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:01.93,0:20:11.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}诺克斯写道：「我深信，神已向我们这个时代的一些人启示：女人若\N要在男人之上作王并拥有统治权，简直比天然的怪物还更骇人。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Knox says, I am assured that God has revealed to some in this our age that it is more than a monster in nature that a woman should reign and have empire above man.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:11.87,0:20:17.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「然而，众人却都保持缄默，仿佛神对此一点也不愤怒。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And yet with all there is such silence as if God therewith were nothing offended.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:17.100,0:20:24.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}请注意这一点，因为诺克斯非常清楚，他的同伴改革者在这一问题上都很胆怯。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Notice this point, because Knox is totally aware that his fellow reformers are being cowardly.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:26.87,0:20:34.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们私下都觉得女人当女王不妥，但却不敢公开讲出来。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They secretly think it's not okay for a woman to be queen, but they don't want to actually say that publicly.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.47,0:20:36.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而诺克斯却愿意这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But Knox is willing to.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:37.37,0:20:47.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他认为，让女人承担统治、发号施令、拥有主权或在任何王国、民族或\N城市之上执掌权力都是不可行的——他甚至认为不该让女人当市长。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He argues that to promote a woman to bear rules, superiority, dominion, or empire above any realm, nation, or city is not okay—he means not even okay to have a woman be a mayor.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:47.57,0:20:51.69,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他的大部分论点都集中在一节经文上，而这节经文就印在他的论文封面上。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}A whole lot of his argument turns on a single Bible verse which actually appears on the cover of his treatise.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:51.69,0:21:11.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}若你能把全部所用的圣经参考都放在封面上，通常不是一个好兆头。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When you can fit your biblical references on the front page, that's usually not a great sign.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:11.97,0:21:19.77,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他的论证依据摘自提摩太前书2章12节：保罗说：「我不许女人辖管男人。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}His argument is from 1 Timothy 2:12, where St. Paul says, I suffer not that woman usurp authority above man.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:20.49,0:21:44.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他把保罗的话脱离了经文原本所谈的脉络（那里实际上讲的是教会中的牧职带领\N），然后宣称保罗——或者说借着保罗行事的圣灵——明明剥夺了女人在会众中\N开口、思考、诠释或教导的所有权力与权威，特别是统治和审断男人的权柄。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Stripping this of any context of what Paul is actually talking about (which is about pastoral leadership in the church), Knox instead argues that Paul—or really the Holy Spirit working through St. Paul—is taking from women all power and authority to speak, to reason, to interpret, or to teach, but principally to rule and to judge in the assembly of men.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:02.49,0:22:08.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他提出这一观点，不仅基于那节经文，也因为他自认为女人过于情绪化，难以胜任领导。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He argues this not just on the basis of that one verse but also because he thinks it's obvious that women are too emotional to be leaders.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:08.94,0:22:29.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他在文中以充满性别歧视的口吻描绘，女人太情绪化，\N可能会自寻短见，或者因情欲冲动而做出疯狂之举。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He provides a sexist treatment of how women are so emotional that they'll kill themselves and are so driven by lust that they'll do crazy things.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:29.38,0:22:35.11,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是相当离谱的一段话，完全没有基于任何经文——连一点引用都没有。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's a pretty wild passage not based on any scripture—there's not even a citation in this part.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:35.11,0:22:38.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}纯粹是他个人对于女人是非理性存在的看法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's just Knox's view on women being irrational creatures.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:43.25,0:22:48.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}请注意，他甚至觉得她不该拥有这种权威，哪怕\N只是作为母亲，因为在他看来女人极其不理性。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So notice he doesn't even think she should, like as a mother, have this kind of authority because she's so irrational.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:49.43,0:23:07.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「我确信不可允许她掌管任何国度。既然不能容许她替被指控的人辩护，也不能容许她\N对男人提出指控，那么当然不应允许她头戴王冠，在众人当中篡夺权威并坐堂审判。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Will not permit her, I'm assured, to have rule over a realm, and those that will not suffer her to speak in defense of those that be accused, neither will admit her accusation intended against man, will not approve her that she shall sit in judgment crowned with the royal crown, usurping authority in the midst of men.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:07.98,0:23:17.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}直接点说：既然你都不相信女人能在法庭上作证或\N指控男人，那么又怎么能相信她能够治理国家呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In plain language: since you can't trust a woman to give testimony in court or to testify against a man, how can you possibly trust her to rule a country?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:17.26,0:23:18.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是他的论点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's the argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:18.10,0:23:20.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你可以自己评估，这论点是否站得住脚。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You can judge whether or not you think it's good.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:20.98,0:23:26.27,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果要说它有什么可取之处，可能就只是看起来他非常大胆。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The one thing it has going for it, if anything, is he's at least bold—seemingly.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:26.27,0:23:38.77,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}可是下一年，在英格兰南方就发生了件颇具讽刺意\N味的事：「伊丽莎白，你们毋庸置疑的女王！」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But then a very funny thing happens the very next year to the south: Elizabeth, your undoubted queen!
Dialogue: 0,0:23:43.38,0:23:48.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那位公教徒玛丽女王去世后，她的同父异母妹妹伊丽莎白即位成为君主。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Catholic Queen Mary dies, and her half-sister Elizabeth comes to the crown.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:48.26,0:23:59.54,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就让约翰·诺克斯的处境十分尴尬，因为据说他反\N对玛丽并不是因为她是公教徒，而是因为她是女人。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now this creates a very awkward situation for John Knox because allegedly he wasn't objecting to Mary because she was a Catholic—he was objecting to her because she was a woman.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.54,0:24:06.31,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他当时宣称，无论是公教徒还是新教徒，都必须\N拒绝玛丽，因为女人不该当女王来治理国家。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He was saying everyone, Catholic or Protestant, has to reject Mary because you can't have a woman as queen ruling a country.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:06.35,0:24:12.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}可这时，一位虔诚的新教徒、而且还是玛丽的亲妹妹，却登上了王位。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And then a devout Protestant, indeed her very sister, comes to the throne.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:13.41,0:24:14.63,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那么他现在该怎么办？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What is he going to do now?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:14.63,0:24:18.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他会不会在合宜和不合宜的时候都坚持自己的信念呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Is he going to stick with the courage of his convictions in season and out of season?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:18.05,0:24:19.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然不会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Of course not.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.07,0:24:23.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他会立刻给伊丽莎白女王写一封信，声明他并非真要表达那些意思。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He's going to quickly write a letter to Queen Elizabeth announcing he doesn't mean all that.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:24.35,0:24:42.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}于是，他就写信给「贤明且敬虔的伊丽莎白，因神的恩典成为英格兰女王」等等。请\N注意，他先前说这是违背本性、违背经文的事，如今却又宣称这是出于神的旨意。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So he writes to the virtuous and godly Elizabeth, by the grace of God, Queen of England, etc. Notice this thing that he declared contrary to nature, contrary to scripture, he now declares to be the will of God.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:42.68,0:24:45.03,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他现在说这是因着神的恩典而成就的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's by the grace of God that this has happened.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.69,0:24:57.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}显然，他需要软化立场，因为他想前往英格兰，而她同时也掌控着苏格兰的摄政大权。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Obviously, he has some backpedaling to do because he would like to go to England, and she is also the regent over Scotland as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:57.05,0:25:00.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以说，他的处境相当危险。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So he's in a very precarious sort of situation.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.41,0:25:04.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他只好有点心虚地承认：「是啊，那本书确实是我写的。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He has to kind of own up like, Yeah, I did kind of write that book.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:04.37,0:25:10.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他说：「我无法否认自己曾写过那本反对女人篡夺权柄与不义管治的书。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He says, I cannot deny the writing of a book against the usurp authority and unjust regiment of women.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:10.93,0:25:12.71,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对，那书上还写着你的名字呢。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Yeah, he's got your name on it.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.71,0:25:14.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而且那还是仅仅一年前的事。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It was only a year old.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:14.44,0:25:21.54,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「我并不打算收回，或否认所有主要论点或主张，除非有更多真理与事实出现。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Neither yet am I minded to retract or call any principal point or proposition of the same till truth and verity do further appear.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:21.54,0:25:31.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「但为何无论是陛下，亦或是那些坚持捍卫英格兰自由的人，会\N因我写了这部作品而心生不快，我着实看不出有何正当理由。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But why either Your Grace, either yet as such as unfadedly favor the liberty of England, should be offended at the author of such a work, I can perceive no just occasion.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:31.27,0:25:44.31,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}说白了就是：「伊丽莎白一世女王啊，我写了一篇说女人不能统治国家的作品\N，你为何要因此恼火？而且他还坚持：你怎么会觉得这些话是在指你呢？」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In plain language: Why would you be offended that I wrote a work about how women can't rule a country, Queen Elizabeth I? And so he insists, Well, why would you take any of this as applying to you?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.47,0:26:31.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你可以自行判断，他是否是在倒退、夹着尾巴做人，完\N全否弃他在一年前因政治环境不同而公开发表的主张。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So you can judge for yourself whether you think he's backpedaling, got his tail between his legs, and is totally renouncing his prior publicly stated opinions from a year earlier as the political climate shifted.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:32.02,0:26:38.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}然而，要把他当作在政治风向转变时绝不退让的典范，确实相当奇怪。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But this is again a weird guy to highlight as someone who won't back down when the political winds shift.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.84,0:26:42.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}就好像，是的，他当初可是非常公开地那样做了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's like, yeah, he did it very publicly.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:42.33,0:26:48.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你可以看到，只是一年时间内，他就不得不迅速地改口了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You can see in the span of a year him having to back down very quickly.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:48.42,0:26:51.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而且不止是约翰·诺克斯本人——他把其他人也牵扯了进来。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And it's not just John Knox—he gets wrapped up in it.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:51.06,0:26:55.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他的那位类似导师的人物，加尔文，也同样陷入了这场风波。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's also his kind of master, John Calvin.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:57.34,0:27:12.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}早在 1554 年，在他正式对外发表那本书之前，约翰·诺克斯就曾\N提到自己曾前往瑞士，与那里的主要领袖们讨论过一些敏感话题的想法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Back in 1554, before he actually wrote the book publicly, John Knox had talked about how he'd gone down to Switzerland and tossed some ideas on a sensitive subject over with the major figures there.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:13.32,0:27:16.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}显而易见，他所指的就是加尔文以及其他几位重要人物。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is obviously John Calvin and some others.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:17.26,0:27:24.19,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}稍有常识的人都看得出，这些说法并不是约翰·诺克斯一个人凭空创造出来的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that John Knox didn't just come up with all this stuff on his own.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:24.35,0:27:32.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他是瑞士一群持相同观点者中的一员，而其中最有名\N的领头人正是这神学运动的中心人物——加尔文。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He's part of a group of people in Switzerland who believe this, the most famous of which is kind of the head of this theological movement, John Calvin.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:33.73,0:27:37.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}于是你会发现，加尔文也顿时陷入了困境。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So you find John Calvin suddenly kind of in the doghouse.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:38.38,0:27:50.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他写信给威廉·塞西尔，也就是伊丽莎白一世女王的首席顾问。从 1\N559 年的那封信中，你可以看出加尔文对整件事多么感到不自在。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He writes to William Cecil, who is the chief advisor to Queen Elizabeth I. You can just read from the letter in 1559 how uncomfortable John Calvin finds this whole thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:50.26,0:28:09.49,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他曾想把自己写的《以赛亚书》注释寄给伊丽莎白一世女王，却得到消息说，陛下觉\N得他的致敬让她颇为不悦，因为她因日内瓦出版的某些著作而对加尔文有所不满。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He had tried to send a copy of his commentary on Isaiah to Queen Elizabeth I and got word back that his homage had been found rather distasteful to her majesty because she had been offended with him on account of certain writings that had been published in Geneva.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:10.29,0:28:24.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们大概也知道那些撰述是什么——其中最有名的当然就是约翰·诺克斯\N的作品。也就不奇怪她没有纠缠于「我不同意你的救恩论或预定论」，\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We have a pretty good idea what those writings are—the most famous of them being, of course, John Knox's. It's clear why she's not getting into the weeds on I don't agree with your soteriology or your views on predestination.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:24.67,0:28:31.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}很显然，她不满的重点是来自日内瓦的那些论调，宣称女人连城市都无权治理。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}No, it's obviously the part she's upset with are these things coming out of Geneva about how women aren't allowed to rule, even cities.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.70,0:28:34.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对她当下的政治处境而言，这可称不上友善。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's not great for her political situation.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:35.26,0:29:27.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文说：「然而，有时也确实出现过某些才华出\N众的女子，神在她们身上显示了特别的祝福。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin says, Nevertheless, certain women had sometimes been so gifted that the singular blessing of God was conspicuous in them.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:28.07,0:29:33.13,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}请记住，这就是他当时对伊丽莎白女王首席顾问威廉·塞西尔所说的话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Remember, this is what he is now telling William Cecil, the chief advisor to Queen Elizabeth.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:33.37,0:29:47.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他表示，神已清楚地证明她们是借着神的安排被提拔起来的，或许是因\N神愿借此类例子谴责男人的怠惰，或是更清楚地彰显神自己的荣耀。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He says God had made it manifest that they had been raised up by the providence of God, either because He willed by such examples to condemn the supineness (laziness) of men or to show more distinctly His own glory.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:47.14,0:29:58.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文承认圣经中有些例子反驳了诺克斯的观点——\N经上确有像底波拉那样的女性领袖，被立为士师。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin acknowledges there are biblical arguments against John Knox's point—there are women leaders in the Bible like Deborah, who was raised up as a judge.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:59.36,0:30:07.27,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在这些经文里并看不出有什么违背天然的地方，也\N看不到神是为了惩罚他们才让一名女子来拯救。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It doesn't appear to be something contrary to nature, and nothing in the text suggests God was punishing them by having them delivered by a woman.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:25.18,0:30:39.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文声称，由于照着惯例、普遍共识以及长久传承的惯用方式，王国和公国\N确实可以经由血统继承给女子，他认为这个问题不该被放到公开场合来争论。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin claims that since by custom, common consent, and long-established usage, kingdoms and principalities might be transmitted to women by hereditary right, he didn't think this question should be publicly discussed.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:39.67,0:30:55.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有两点值得注意：虽然他认为女人执政违背神和自然的旨意，但他并不想在公共场\N合讨论这点——这已经与人们所熟知的、那位「勇敢的加尔文」的形象相矛盾。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Two things to note: even though he thinks it's contrary to the will of God and nature for women to lead, he doesn't want to talk about it publicly—already contrary to the popular image of the brave John Calvin.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:59.46,0:31:07.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}再者，他的论点也很乏力，因为就当时的英格兰环境\N而言，伊丽莎白与玛丽是目前仅有的两位女性君主。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Moreover, his argument is weak because in the context of England, Elizabeth and Mary were the only two women to ever rule at this point.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:08.30,0:31:16.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当时并没有让王位从男性转给女性的固定传统。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There was no established custom of the crown passing to a woman instead of a man.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:16.57,0:31:27.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}往昔王位总是传给儿子，也正因亨利八世无法得到一\N位能长大成人的合法儿子，这才引发了这个问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It had always been passed down to the son, and only because Henry VIII couldn't have a legitimate son who would live to adulthood did this question arise.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:28.06,0:31:48.83,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文说，这个问题不该被讨论，不仅因为它令人厌恶，\N也因为我们无权去动摇那些由神特别安排而设立的政府。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin says this question shouldn't be debated not only because it's odious but because it is not permitted to unsettle governments that have been set up by the peculiar providence of God.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.94,0:31:53.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是一个奇怪的论点——似乎说，讨论伊丽莎白的统治权可能会动摇英格兰王室。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is a strange argument—that discussing Elizabeth's right to rule might upset the English Crown.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:02.07,0:32:09.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他似乎是说，你私底下可以觉得她不算正当的女王，但别公开说出来，因为这对政局不利。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He seems to be saying you can privately think she's not the lawful queen, but don't say it publicly because that's not good for the government.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:10.95,0:32:25.03,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他声称自己丝毫没料到诺克斯的那本书存在，而那书在他听闻之前就已经出版整整一年了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He claims he had not the slightest suspicion of Knox's book and that it had been published a whole year before he was aware of its existence.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:25.03,0:32:43.54,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也就是说——别忘了那本书是 1557 年问世的——他主张自己又\N过了一年才知道这事，尽管他自己曾说在 1554 年，也就是两年\N前，就已和约翰·诺克斯讨论过。加尔文这事后说法似乎有些问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So he's claiming—remember, the book came out in 1557—that he didn't even know about it for another year, even though in his own telling he had talked to John Knox two years earlier in 1554. There are some problems with John Calvin's after-the-fact story.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:43.66,0:33:00.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们虽没有很多书面记录，但你可看到像在 1554 年——也就是\N五年前——他似乎说过已经在日内瓦和所需的人讨论过这个敏感话题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We don't have a lot of written records, but you do have things like in 1554—five years earlier—seemingly saying that he had talked with the people he needed to talk to in Geneva about this sensitive subject.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.53,0:33:05.79,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}等他落笔成文后，便很快能知道他所指的敏感话题究竟是什么了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It quickly became clear which sensitive subject he was talking about when he finally set pen to paper.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:07.53,0:33:14.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}从加尔文的其他部分书信也很清楚可见，他跟威廉·塞西尔所说的那番说辞并非全部属实。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's also clear from some of Calvin's other correspondence that the version he tells William Cecil isn't all true.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:15.28,0:33:34.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文在 1554 年曾写信给另一位瑞士改革者布林格，\N说他看过布林格针对他口中那位「苏格兰人」所作的回应。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He writes to Bullinger, another Swiss reformer, back in 1554, saying he had looked over the answer that Bullinger had given to what he calls the Scotsman.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:35.35,0:33:44.71,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对于那位「苏格兰人」究竟是谁曾有些争议，但同样地，约翰\N·诺克斯在 1554 年声称他和瑞士的一些人士讨论过。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There was some dispute over which Scotsman this was, but again, in 1554, John Knox claimed he talked to some folks in Switzerland.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:08.97,0:34:21.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文说，他在诺克斯来到他们当中之前就和他谈过这些问题，\N并讨论过，让女人统治政权在正常的自然次序下是完全不合的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin says he talked over these matters with Knox before he came among them and had discussed how it is utterly invariant with a legitimate order of nature for a woman to be head of a government.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:21.62,0:34:32.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不过，也可能由于神出人意料的恩典，出现特殊情况：神为了责备\N男人的怠惰，就让某位具有英勇之灵的女子兴起，如同底波拉般。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Nevertheless, you might have a case because of extraordinary grace, where God is reproaching men for their sluggishness and raises up a woman with a heroic spirit, like Deborah.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:33.24,0:34:40.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但是，就玛丽或伊丽莎白而言，好像并不存在这样的例子。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, there doesn't seem to be that in the case of either Mary or Elizabeth in this sense.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.24,0:34:48.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在士师的案例中，是神将一群普通人兴起，呼召他们执行不寻常的使命。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}With the judges, you have these figures where God raises up these ordinary people and calls them to an extraordinary kind of mission.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:48.96,0:34:57.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但在此情形下，只是都铎血脉的传承——纯粹是亨利八世当时和谁生了小孩而已。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In this case, it's just the Tudor bloodline—it's just who Henry VIII happened to have a child with that week.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:11.69,0:35:20.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文最终说：「虽然这种政权看上去只是一种滥用，但我郑\N重认为，私人并无权采取任何行动，只能对此叹息不已。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin ultimately says, Though a government of this kind seems to mean nothing else than a mere abuse, yet I gave it as my solemn opinion that private persons have no right to do anything but to deplore it.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.45,0:35:20.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}换言之，你可以私底下觉得这不对，但别在公开场合说什么。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In other words, you can privately think it's wrong, but don't say anything publicly.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.45,0:35:22.91,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，这是个颇令人玩味的论点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So it's an interesting argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:24.59,0:35:28.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}公平地说，相较于约翰·诺克斯，加尔文的看法要更有些微妙的层次。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In total fairness to John Calvin, he has a much more nuanced view than John Knox.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:28.80,0:35:35.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}约翰·诺克斯则是走得很极端，结果把自己逼入相当尴尬的境地。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}John Knox just goes off the rails and then finds himself in this very embarrassing position.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:35.16,0:35:44.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文考虑过，尽管他强烈反对女性在世俗领域担任领导，但也不能说我们应该推翻政府。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin has considered that even though he's strongly against women leading even in a civil context, he can't say we should overthrow the government.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:44.63,0:35:49.25,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以他并没有像约翰·诺克斯那样陷入那么严重的困境。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So he's not in quite as much hot water as John Knox is.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:52.03,0:36:06.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在不列颠群岛讨论这些话题的另一人是克里斯托弗·古\N德曼，他正在撰写一部探讨是否可以反叛王权的论文。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Another person from the British Isles having these conversations was Christopher Goodman, who was writing a treatise on whether it was okay to rebel against the crown.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:06.12,0:36:08.100,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他所思考的问题之一是：女人没有执政的权利。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}One of the things he considered was that women don't have a right to rule.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.22,0:36:16.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}古德曼在 1558 年的来信中提到，他曾就此问题征求过加尔文的意见。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Goodman, in his own letters in 1558, talked about how he had gotten Calvin's judgment on this question.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:33.65,0:36:40.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文告诉他，其中某些部分听起来颇为严厉，尤其对掌权者而言，因此必须谨慎对待。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin said to him that certain parts seemed harsh, especially to those in power, and should be handled with caution.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:40.38,0:36:42.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不过，他也承认这些内容的要旨并非虚妄。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Nevertheless, he admitted that the gist was true.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:44.04,0:36:53.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文采取了一种相对温和的态度：你可以私底下认为女性不\N合法地位居于政权之首，但别公开宣扬，因为这会引起叛乱。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Calvin takes a sort of moderate view: you can privately think women aren't lawful heads of state but don't say it out loud because it could lead to rebellion.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:28.82,0:37:44.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}问题的关键在于：最初引发这一切的是乔什·拜斯的说法，认为路德、加尔文\N、诺克斯等人在捍卫信仰时，不会先算计自己的事业发展或顾及他们的平台。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The bigger issue is simply this: the thing that started this was Josh Bice's claim that folks like Luther, Calvin, and Knox were not making decisions about defending the faith by calculating their career advancement and protecting their platform.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:45.28,0:37:47.35,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我们却实实在在看到这三个人确实就是那么做的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But we see all three of them literally doing that.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:47.83,0:37:55.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}路德只要觉得为教宗辩护或依赖教宗的好意对他有利，他就会那么做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When Luther thinks it helps his platform to defend the Pope or appeal to the Pope's good nature, he does that.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:55.89,0:38:00.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当他觉得向大公会议上诉能有助于他的主张时，他就会去那么做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When he thinks it'll defend his cause to appeal to an ecumenical council, he does that.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:00.94,0:38:05.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当他发现两边都帮不了他时，他就干脆称两者都无权威。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When he realizes neither is going to help him, he then suggests neither has authority.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.17,0:38:05.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文和诺克斯也是一样，他们会依照政治利害\N与个人好处来调整自己原本坚定的神学立场。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The same goes for Calvin and Knox, who modify their strongly held theological positions based on political expediency and personal advantage.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.17,0:38:05.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就动摇了那种把他们形容为毫不妥协、秉持原则、绝不会为个人利益调整立场的说法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This undermines the narrative of them as uncompromising, principled reformers who would never adjust their stance for personal benefit.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.17,0:38:11.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}约翰·诺克斯在认为这能对抗公教徒玛丽女王时，就主张女人没有合法的权利来统治。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}John Knox, when he thinks it'll help the case against Catholic Mary, argues women don't have the lawful right to lead.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:11.38,0:38:15.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而当面对新教徒伊丽莎白时，他忽然又改变了立场。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When it's Protestant Elizabeth, he suddenly changes his principle.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:15.78,0:38:29.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文看来也差不多，只是他还加了一层说法：我们私下可这么想，\N但千万别公开表态，因为在英格兰那种地方，这不利于我们的主张。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}John Calvin seems to do much the same thing, but adds to it this idea that we can privately think these things but let's not publicly say them because that won't help our case in places like England.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:30.100,0:38:42.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不论你怎么看这些改革者，容我用这个描述：人们往往把他们看作那些毫不退缩、\N虔诚热心、愿为信仰舍命的圣徒——可事实上，他们并没有为信仰而牺牲性命。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Whatever you may think of the reformers, I would just suggest this characterization: the popular image of them as these unflinching, devout saints willing to die for their faith—these guys don't die for the faith.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:43.36,0:38:47.41,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们反而展现出在拉拢掌权者方面极其老练的手段。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They show themselves extremely shrewd in appealing to the powers that be.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:47.41,0:38:49.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我在这里这不过是略作点到而已。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm just scratching the surface here.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:49.90,0:38:52.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}宗教改革的政治层面非常引人入胜。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The politics of the Reformation are fascinating.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:52.16,0:39:03.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}马丁·路德最初所做的事情之一就是向世俗政府提出诉求，以图维护自己的\N主张，即便这意味着在欧洲引发一场宗教战争，结果后来也确实发生了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}One of the first things Martin Luther does is appeal to the secular state to try to defend his case, even if it means starting a religious war in Europe, which eventually does happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:03.87,0:39:11.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}是的，他不介意和政治权威妥协来推进自己的——如果你愿意这么称——事业和平台。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Yes, he's willing to compromise with political authorities to advance his own—if you want to call it—career and platform.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:14.07,0:39:26.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我想说的是，我们应该去除对这些宗教改革者的圣化\N与粉饰，真实地展现他们在政治上多么精明、老练。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All I would suggest here is that some of the hagiography and whitewashing of the reformers should be scrubbed away to give a more realistic presentation of how shrewd and adept they were as politicians.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:26.72,0:39:33.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}同样，无论你认为这对或错，我们至少该诚实地探讨这些新教改革者的性格与本质。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Again, whether you think that's right or wrong, let's at least talk honestly about the character and nature of the Protestant reformers.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:34.04,0:39:35.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这里是无耻教皇党，我是乔·赫施迈尔。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}For Shameless Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:35.90,0:39:36.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}愿神赐福给你。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}God bless you.