Transcript

Blessed is the kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Now and forever, and for the ages of ages.

You're watching Reason & Theology Live.

This show concentrates on theological topics, historical matters, and philosophical problems with content ranging from introductory material to in-depth examinations.

And now, your host, Michael Lofton.

And welcome back everybody.

Your host, Michael, on a Thursday evening, doing our second show here for the day.

We're gonna be doing a round table on Protestantism, the Catholic perspective on Protestantism, joined by Father Deacon Anthony Dragani, Dr. Matthew Thomas, and Joe Heshmeyer from Catholic Answers.

All three of you gentlemen have been on the show so welcome back to you all.

In fact, let me greet every one of you indi- individually first before we dive in.

Father Deacon, how are you?

Good to see you.

I'm, I'm happy to be here, Michael, and, uh, it's always good to see you.

I, I hope to get you on the show very soon so we can talk about Ukraine, especially from a Ukrainian-Catholic perspective.

Absolutely.

I'd, I'd be happy to do that.

So everybody look forward to that.

Dr. Thomas, it's been a little while since you've been on the show.

We spoke about your book, uh, on, on justification and the fathers in the second century if I recall correctly.

Is that right?

That is right.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, boy that was a party.

That was a lot of fun.

So, um

Yeah.

Yep, that was real fun.

Yeah.

Thank you for have- having me back again.

You know, when I thought of, okay, well, who do I want to come on the show to talk about the Catholic perspective on Protestantism if we're gonna engage topics like justification or sola Scriptura, I immediately thought of you.

So I really appreciate you coming on and doing this.

Oh, absolutely.

It's a pleasure.

Thank you.

Joe, welcome back to the show.

How are you?

Doing well.

It's good to be back.

Yeah.

Yeah, we were talking, uh

Good to know that, uh, Ukraine's very much in our prayers.

Yeah.

Right, right.

Um, and, you know, when I had you on the show, we were talking about the Church fathers.

Your, your book on the Church fathers and whether or not they were Catholic.

So I think that, um, you're gonna be able to offer a really helpful perspective here as well when it comes to the Catholic perspective on Protestantism.

So really excited to have you on.

Well, thanks.

And I'm excited to find out what this, uh, what this round table has to say about this.

Well, what we think-

Probably think for all three of us, it's a little mysterious still.

Yeah.

You know, and, and, and what we tend to do is, uh, I'll kind of throw out a topic and I'll call on each of you to maybe offer some brief thoughts on it.

Um, and then I'll open up the floor for just a general discussion.

And sometimes I'll do it with people who are non-Catholics and, and so there ends up being a little bit of a debate between some of the panelists.

But on this one, we're doing the Catholic perspective or perspectives on Protestantism, so there might not be as much, uh, i- i- debate when I open it up for a free-for-all, but we'll, we'll see how that goes.

But y'all free Feel free to agree or disagree .

I mean, offer whatever perspective you have from the position that you're coming from.

All right.

So let's go ahead and dive in.

Father Deacon Anthony, let's start with you.

You're coming from an Eastern Catholic perspective.

Could you Could you talk to us about y- your perspective as an Eastern Catholic of Protestantism?

And we're especially When we talk here about Protestants, I know there are a lot of different perspectives among Protestants.

We're especially focusing on confessional Protestants.

Mm-hmm.

So you're more historical Protestants, right?

Um, and, and there's definitely some diversity there but, uh, I, I think that that kind of helps pin down the discussion to a pretty objective group.

So when it comes to this, the Eastern Catholic perspective on Protestantism, could you maybe talk to us about, um, what is your perspective on justification?

Is there anything that we could agree with Protestants when it comes to sola fide and how we're justified?

Um, and are there points that we would say are incompatible with the Eastern Catholic perspective?

Hm.

Yes.

So there's a lot that's incompatible unfortunately, uh, specifically with the idea of being justified by faith alone.

In Eastern Christianity, one of the main themes is theosis.

The idea is that God is calling us to become more and more like him, and they can place His own supernatural life into us to transform us and make us more and more Godlike.

Now, on our end, we have to cooperate with that.

Uh, there's an idea called synergy, synergia, that God's grace, the Holy Spirit is offered to us, but we have to work in cooperation with it.

Uh, and that's more than just faith.

This actually involves action.

It involves choices.

So from an Eastern Christian and Eastern Catholic perspective, um, there isn't a whole lot in common on that particular point unfortunately.

Mm.

Yeah.

And would you say this idea that Well, at least in Catholicism arguably, it's the case that one can have an increase in justification.

Um, whereas it seems in Protestantism, I, I'm not aware of any Protestant that c- would concede that.

They tend to think that this is a kind of one-time event.

Could you maybe briefly speak about that, and does that tie into the topic of theosis?

Mm-hmm.

Um, I've never heard of the idea of an increase in justification.

Can you clarify that a bit?

Yeah.

In the Council of Trent, it talks about So there's this distinction that Trent formulates, and of course this is gonna be more from the Latin perspective, um, so there might even be some distinctions here with the Eastern Catholic perspective.

But at, at Trent, you kind of see this idea that There's this moment of initial justification where you're translated from being, uh, one who is under the first Adam and under the curse.

Yeah.

And you're translated into the second Adam through baptism, um, in the new birth.

And so, you go from being under the domain of Satan to under the domain of the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

So-

Mm-hmm.

But that would be initial justification.

There's an infusion of the Holy Spirit, a person is, um, justified in that moment.

But we could then speak about if they participate with grace after that moment, if they continue to cooperate with grace after that, there can be an increase in their justification, an increase in their righteousness, because now they're cooperating with grace.

So whereas initial justification is entirely unmerited.

There's no cooperation with grace.

I mean, I mean, we're, we're, we're not pushing it away, but there's no, I'm not adding works to it, or something like that.

It's just entirely unmerited when it comes to the initial justification.

Um, but when it comes to the increase in justification, there is some synergy there, there is some merit there.

Does that maybe tie into the concept of Theosis?

I could definitely see that as being compatible.

Uh, what's interesting though is that this whole topic of justification and all the language surrounding it is pretty foreign to Eastern Christianity.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, frankly, it's something we don't really think about much, and it's never really been a topic of any controversy in the East.

Um, so for us to wrap our minds around it, it takes a bit of work because it's something that's off our radar typically.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's true.

There was definitely more of a impact in the West with the Reformation, uh, more than in the East.

Although it's interesting because I think that if you look at some of the Eastern fathers and their perspective on justification, even though they might not articulate it in as much depth as maybe some of the distinctions you find in Trent, I think substantially their understanding of justification is in accord with what the Latin West is saying in the 16th Century.

Probably.

Uh, in their language they're probably talking about it along the terms of say, salvation more so than justification.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

I have never really come across that language in the Eastern fathers of justification per se, but they may be there somewhere.

In Chrysostom I, I think it's, it's prominent in him.

Um, and, and, and let me shift to you, Dr. Thomas.

This, this is something that I think that you would, um, be able to weigh in on.

Could you talk about the second century reception of the fathers, Eastern and Western, or and, and maybe even later, um, on the topic of justification?

And maybe just kinda in general, what are some points of commonality that we have with Protestants and maybe some areas of difference that we have with them?

Yeah.

Um, thanks, Mike.

The You know what I would say the first thing is that, um, part of the challenge with this, this topic is that talking about Protestants is very easy to go into generalize in a way-

Mm-hmm

that, um, I think can just end up, end up being un- unhelpful.

And, and it's something that I find, um, you know, in, in conversation with Protestants sometimes, you know, I'll have, I'll have one friend or another who will say, Well, you know, well, kind of Protestants believe this, Protestants believe this.

Because I've been a part of, you know, see so many different, you know, parson- Protestant churches in my life, I could say, Yeah.

I mean, maybe that might be the way that your church, you know, does it, but that's not, that's not the way that Protestants in, in general do it.

And what happens is, you know, when you really, uh, when you, when you really look big picture, I think what you recognize is that Protestantism is basically a, uh, you know, a catchall term which doesn't itself denote a particular positive theology, but rather is a term that, uh, is used to describe anybody who is a Western Christian who is not Catholic.

And so because of that, um, what, what you end up getting is, you end up getting It's, it's almost like if you're gonna say, you know, if you're just saying, you know, you've got turtles on the one hand, and then say you've got this, uh, you know, you've got this category which is non-turtles.

And then you can say-

Yeah.

Well, can you describe non-turtles for me?

It's like, well, there's a I, I can, but it's gonna take a long time-

Yeah, yeah

to describe non-turtles because it turns out there's a lot of different things that are not turtles, and they're, they're all not turtles in different sorts, sorts of ways.

And, and, and I think that if we stick to the particular, you know, topic of justification, I think historically even going back to the Reformation period, there's different ways in which, you know, there I guess you have different varieties of non-turtles, so to speak.

If, if your Catholic Church is a turtle, uh, the, the, the varieties are, are, are, are pluriform.

And so one, one fun example that I know I, I find it interesting to go back to is, um, to read Martin Luther in respect to the Anabaptists.

Um, because Luther when it comes to the Anabaptists So Anabaptists again, very early, you know, Protestants.

Um, and, you know, they do have confessions as well.

You know, they're, um, even if we don't necessarily think of him as, you know, you know, among like magisterial Protestants, they're, they're original, you know.

Uh, they, they, they, they go back as far as pretty much any Protestants around.

But when it comes to their theology of justification and how they understand sal- salvation to work, Luther just sees them as identical to the Catholics.

Um, and, you know, in, in essence, you know, in substance to, to, to the Orthodox as well here, and, um, which is a very big problem and is part of why he, you know, among other reasons why he, why he dislikes them, uh, very strongly.

And so, uh, they are authentically Protestant, um, but they They do not follow Luther or the other, you know, some of the other reforms when it, when it comes, comes to the, you know, the theology of justification.

So, um, if I remember correctly, I think that Luther describes them as, uh, the foxes with their tails tied together-

Hmm

the, the, the Catholics and the, and the Anabaptists.

They're both, they're both foxes, and, uh, and I believe he takes the image that you get from, from Judges with Samson there.

Uh, their, their, their tails tied together, and they're just gonna sort of wreck, wreak havoc and setting everything on fire.

Um, so that's, uh, that's, that's part of our, of the challenge.

It's part of what makes

Mm-hmm

um, it's part of what makes, you know, studying Protestantism interesting I think because you can Again, they're, you can find so many different varieties, so many different kinds of groups that, you know, say things that are often, you know, heartfelt and, and I think, you know, sometimes have, have real insight to them.

Um, but when it comes to, to, to generalizing, even on one topic like justification, you know, when Uh, it's, it's funny, you know, if you were to, to think, you know, most Protestants these, these days, uh, if we're just gonna say, you know, in, in America, you know, mo- most, most Protestants, uh, wouldn't say adhere closely to, you know, either Luther or Calvin on, on this particular-

Mm-hmm.

Hmm

topic.

Um, and so it's, uh, it just makes it really, really hard to generalize.

You can talk about a specific Protestant or a specific, you know, another kind of Protestant or one group or another group and then divisions within those particular groups.

Um, but even here if you're, even if you're just talking early Lutheranism, y- y- when it comes to the necessity for, for, for works, you get division really early on within Lutheranism, and it And Lutheranism as a unified movement barely survives even Luther's own lifetime 'cause you get, you know, you know, the, the Gnesian Lutherans that go and break off because of they think that Melanchton is basically, um, you know, making this requirement for works that Luther himself, uh, would've just found, you know, ab- abhorrent.

And so anyway, uh, that's all to say, uh, it's hard to, to, to generalize in a way that doesn't end up being unfair to people who identify as Protestants, in the same way that, you know, if we're talking about, you know, non-turtles and say, Tell us what non-turtles are like, again- ah, you could say a lot of things.

Sure, sure.

Yeah, you're, you're definitely right.

It kinda, kinda hard to pin down, so -

Yeah

Joe, come to you.

So, uh, you know, why don't you go ahead and, and weigh in here.

Maybe, um, your thoughts on what was just said, and also just on the topic in general.

Yeah, I, I gotta say I love Dr. Thomas' example of non-turtles.

I'm gonna steal that from now on in explaining, like, why it's so hard, because people regularly imagine that Protestantism works something like Catholicism.

You know, there's, here's the official Catholic teaching, there- therefore, there's gonna be an official Protestant teaching, and people might dissent from it, but they're just better or worse Protestants.

But it's not like that.

There, there's no Protestant magisterium at all.

Um, Flannery Connor in Uh, Flannery O'Connor, in her letter to Dr. Spivey says, You can know where I stand, what I believe, because I'm a practicing Catholic, but I can't know what you believe unless I ask you.

And I think that's actually not just, like, a sound point to remember, but a sound point to live out.

Like, one of the big mistakes I see in Catholic, Protestant apologetics all the time, from a Catholic perspective, is Catholics assuming what a Protestant believes because they're Protestant.

But if instead you ask, you'll be shocked by the number of, like, Catholic beliefs that a lot of Protestants have and don't even think anything of them.

You know, like, I've met Protestants who are totally fine with praying to Mary or totally fine with purgatory or fill in the blank where you're just like, I wouldn't have guessed that.

Well, ask.

You know, don't assume.

Uh, that's the first thing, just kind of the general genus level kind of point.

Uh, second, on the justification debate, I think it was C.S.

Lewis, but I don't remember if it was him for sure, who had a really helpful analogy, uh, where he can, describes the relationship to initial justification and subsequent justification to being alive.

Like if, if being justified is being right with God, it's to be spiritually alive as opposed to spiritually dead, well, the first act of that in your life at a physical level was done totally without your cooperation or consent or responsibility.

You know, God and your parents did all the work, uh, probably especially your mother but, you know, I'm not into biology.

Uh, that's the initial stage, and you have nothing to do with it.

But from that point on, you have a tremendous amount to do with it.

You have to, you know, feed yourself, and you have to take care of yourself and everything else.

Uh, but I think this also gets into Father Deakin's point that that's not the end of the story.

Like, I'm doing what I need to do to stay alive is a really horrible place to end up in terms of your biological life, and it's a really horrible place to end up in your spiritual life.

Like, rather, you should be saying like, What do I have to do to grow, and not just grow at the basic, 'If I don't do this I'm gonna die,' kind of level, but how do I become the man I'm meant to be by God?

That's true biologically, that's true spiritually.

Um, and so I think that's maybe just a, a different way of framing it.

If, if I'm not belaboring it too much, I might add a third point as well, uh, which is that I find that a lot of the justification debate is really muddled because neither Catholics nor Protestants understand what the other side means by words like justification or even by works.

Uh, and that we're using biblical language, but against a backdrop that we're just applying our own kind of meaning to technical words that Paul's using and assume that he means the same thing as, you know, what-

Mm-hmm

Martin Luther means by those words.

Um, Alister McGrath in, uh, Institutia Dei talks about how one of the major differences is this idea of forensic justification, that the early Christians understood justification as being right with God, and the reformers understood it as God declaring an unrighteous person righteous.Those are really different understandings.

Because in, in Luther's understanding, you know, he's, uh, uh, credited with saying, he probably didn't say it, but another early Protestant did say, was like, uh, piles of dung covered in snow.

Mm-hmm.

But there's no n- not an actual transformation, there's just a legal declaration that they're guilty or innocent.

And i- i- that's not how the Church fathers understood it.

And if we, you, you read the words like justification and assume that's what Paul means, you're applying this 16th century lens that is, is totally ahistorical and, and is assuming your conclusion, and I would say, inaccurate.

Instead, instead of muddling into that debate-

Mm-hmm

I think a helpful way to go about it is to ask a few basic questions.

And I think, uh, St. John of all people is who you can settle these questions through.

And so before I've suggested that the first question you can ask is, Can you go to heaven without loving God and neighbor?

And the answer to that is very explicitly no.

1 John 3, He who does not love remains in death.

You, you are not alive without that.

St. Paul says the same thing, Faith without love is nothing.

So the second question, Can you love God by keeping his commandments?

Again, repeatedly we're told in Scripture that the answer to that is no.

John 14:15, If you love me, you'll keep my commandments.

2 John, This is love, that we follow his commandments.

So we follow the commandments of God not because we're getting to heaven on our own wind or something like that, but because that's what it is to love God.

He gives us the ability to obey his commandments.

And then I guess the, if you want, the third aspect you could ask is, Well, can you keep those commandments without performing good works?

And the answer to that is quite obviously no.

I mean, Jesus says, Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

So you can't say, I'm gonna disobey that.

I'm not gonna do the good works God has equipped me to do and called me to do, and still plan to get to heaven because I believe Jesus.

Well, you don't believe him enough to do the thing he told you to do.

So whether you wanna call that faith or good works or both is a terminological debate that I, I think really misses the, the meat of things.

And what I'm gonna do here is just open up the floor.

Any of you can offer, you know, thoughts on whatever you want related to justification.

Or even ask each other questions.

Whatever y'all wanna do before we move onto the next aspect.

I, I wanna jump in and talk about the, the point that both Matthew and Joe made-

Okay

regarding a variety of Protestants, and how surprising that can be.

Uh, and I experienced this firsthand.

So I, I was raised Catholic, but I went through a period where I became disillusioned with Catholicism in my, like, late teens.

And part of it was I had some Protestant friends that I met in college who, um, were very knowledgeable about Scripture, and I wasn't.

And a lot of them came at me with some very, very, um, strong arguments against Catholicism from Scripture that I could not respond to.

And that particular group of Protestants, um, they kind of pulled me away from Catholicism.

I never actually left, but I started to move away.

Uh, so I began looking at other churches, and here's where the surprise came in.

Uh, I thought that all Protestants thought like they did, but I started attending a Methodist church.

And the Methodist minister was awesome.

I loved going there, because he was a phenomenal preacher, very scriptural.

Uh, he made sense of things, and I- I just felt like God, like God was present with him in some way.

I could sense it.

So one day after one of his services, I went and talked with him privately, and I said to him, You know, I- I want to join your church.

I wanna become Methodist.

He took me in his office, and he had sitting on his, uh, desk a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

And he said to me, You were raised Catholic, weren't you?

I'm like, Yes.

He said, Well, I have great love for Catholicism.

I don't think you really understand it.

Um, I don't think you should become Methodist until you know what you're leaving first.

And then he started giving me recommendations on books to read about Catholicism.

So I took him up on that, and I began studying Catholicism.

And then after several months of this and more conversations with him and many more conversations, I went back to him and said, I've decided to remain Catholic.

And he was legitimately happy about that.

Um, so right there, I was surprised.

Mm-hmm.

I- I thought this Methodist minister would usher me into a new life as a, as a Protestant disciple of Jesus, and he ushered me back into Catholicism as an on-fire Catholic.

So, i- it's amazing how that happens, but there's definitely variety there.

And, and now you're a deacon.

I am.

I am.

So you have him partially to thank for that, I guess.

Absolutely, I do.

Uh, d- d- you know, honestly if I'd gone to any other Protestant church, I probably wouldn't be Catholic right now.

Uh, that's where I was meant to be at that place and that time.

Anybody else wanna jump in here?

No, I- I can just say I love that, that witness, and I think it points to something really true, that Fulton Sheen has that line.

I just- I- to sound smart, I just quote people constantly.

Uh, he has that line about how, you know, there's not a million people Or excuse me.

There- there's a million people who hate what they think the Catholic Church is.

There's not a thousand who hate what the Catholic Church really is.

Something to that effect.

Mm-hmm.

And I think there's something really true about that.

Like, I think even people who leave Catholicism to become Protestant, if you were to really grill them, they often didn't have, uh, a very good understanding o- of what Catholicism was about in the first place.

And I think that should cause a lot of introspection on both the Catholic and the Protestant side.

Like, why is it that bad Catholics become Protestant, but good Protestants become Catholic?

Like, we're getting people like Scott Hahn.

They're getting, like, angsty teenagers.

They're getting the quantity, but I think on a qualitative level, the people who are really digging in and doing the research are becoming Catholic.

Now, that's a question Protestants should be asking.

The Catholics should be asking, like, why is it that we can't seem to educate people on the basics of what the Catechism teaches?

That, you know, they're finding something in Protestantism that they weren't finding in Catholicism?

Mm.

And it's easy to say it's flashy lights or, you know, uh, an ear-tickling sermon.But it may be they're getting the kerygma.

And that they're not-

Mm-hmm

getting the kerygma preached at an ordinary parish in the US.

And i- it seems like we got a lot of evidence that, that points to that.

That for every person converting, six and half people leave.

Uh, that should be setting off all kind of alarm bells, 'cause in addition to the ones who leave, a lot of other ones get lukewarm and, and kind of maybe take up a place in the pew, or, or don't even bother coming but still call themselves Catholic.

And the numbers are actually probably a lot worse than they appear on paper, and they, they look pretty bad on paper.

Yeah.

W- what I see is a lot of the people leaving Catholicism for Protestant churches, number one, um, they, they don't know Catholicism.

I didn't know Catholicism.

But number two, they were looking, in many cases, for the Gospel.

They're looking for a, an understanding of Christ, a connection with Christ.

And sadly, a lot of our Catholic churches are not delivering that right now.

And that, that weighs on me heavily.

I think that's something we really need to look at.

Why are we not preaching the Gospel?

Why do people have to look elsewhere for it?

I think that this is something where if you have a look, um, and I'm sure that, uh, all three of you, you know, know some of this history.

Um, this is something that, you know, I learned, um, when I You know, my first job was, was teaching at, uh, at St. Patrick's, the diocesan seminary here, um, in, in Menlo Park, in Bay Area.

And it was at that point that I started to learn about what, uh, you know, basically kind of post-conciliar, uh, seminary formation was, was like.

And, um, from the stories that I was told of what a, you know, a place like St. Patrick's was like in the, um, you know, in the '80s and, and '90s, um, it seemed like it was a minor miracle that anybody made it out of there, um, with, you know, uh, just kind of with, with any, any, any faith at all because it was a, it was a bit of frat house, and sometimes a lot more than a bit of a frat house.

I, you know, it's interesting, our, um, uh, our, our, our priest, n- our parish here, um, he a- attended over there.

And, and so it was interesting because he would tell me, uh, that when he took scripture classes over there, um, what he, what he learned there, uh, was so antithetical to the faith that, um, what he would do is before he went to his classes, he would pray and his prayer was, um, God, I know that I have to go to this class.

I know that you want me to go to these classes, and this is part of what I'm doing out of obedience.

But I know that I don't have to believe these things.

And, and that was sort of what protected him.

His, his, um, you know, his, his biblical formation was basically, um, you know, uh, is almost like a, like a prayer bunker of sorts, uh, to try to, um, yeah, not, not get, you know, dragged along and damaged by the kinds of, of things that were, that were that were being, being taught there.

Um, and I And from what I've been told, this is not an isolated case as far as what, you know, what priestly formation was like within that period.

And from, again, you know, heck, I'm, I'm 36 years old.

I don't know a whole lot.

But from everything that I hear from people who are older than me, it sounds like this really had a negative impact within the parish life that, uh, you know, just, you know, across, across the, the country.

Joe's telling me there's a beautiful black dress back here.

Thank you very much, Joe.

I appreciate that.

I've, um, I've really been working on that.

It, it really kind of fleshed out your point about the frat house atmosphere of St. Patrick's.

No, ab- absolutely.

This is, uh, yeah.

I've, I've been, I've been This, it's aspirational for me, that in the near future I'm gonna be able to fit.

And Joe, I want you to know, I'm not far away.

Um, I'm, I'm making progress.

This is actually, just so you know, we are, uh, we're staying in my parents' house currently 'cause our house has some work to be done.

And so me and my wife and four kids are staying in two rooms here at my, my parents' house.

And this is, uh, this is the guest room, so that's why has a very antique look to it.

That's I, I was playing a joke on you.

It's not my black dress.

Uh, and there's also a window here that the sun keeps coming through.

This is why I keep moving the, the screen.

So just, just so you know.

Oh, God bless you.

I gotta go to full disclosure.

I just did a show two days ago that was like, uh, on national cable TV.

The first time I've ever done anything like that.

If they'd waited one more day, I would've been back here with, like, studio and, like, lighting and a ca- like, a good camera and everything else.

But instead they did it while I was visiting San Diego in a 900 square foot apartment at 4:00 in the morning with two sleeping children.

It was just like a time bomb.

And I'm sitting at a dining room table with a really bad webcam.

Like, you just You'd make what, you'd make do with what you got.

So God bless you for it.

Oh, yeah.

No, I love it.

It's You know, so people know it's real, you know?

This is, uh, we're coming, coming live from the, the guest room with the black dress in the background, so

I have to say, that's much more real than Michael's fake bookshelf with all the cardboard books.

Yeah, yeah.

There, there you go, yeah.

My cardboard, cardboard bookshelf.

Right, yeah.

I didn't notice the black dress, though, until y'all mentioned it.

Oh, this is great.

I love it.

So let me ask one quick question, uh, and, and anybody who wants to answer it, uh, jump on it, and then we'll move onto the next topic.

So Joe, earlier you brought up the, um, concept of being declared righteous.

Is there any room in the Catholic perspective for such a notion?

Now, obviously we might say that there's more to it than that, but could we still say that, well, there is a sense in which that it's true that we're declared righteous.

Or would we say, no, that's just not compatible with Catholic view?

No, I think as long as you don't separate the declaration

Mm-hmm

from the reality, that it's, it's totally fine to say we're declared right.

But we're declared righteous because we're actually made righteous.

Mm-hmm.

So it's kind of a both/and sort of thing.

Um likewise, in terms of common ground, or you know, you kinda mentioned this, but I wanna make it very clear that e- initial justification is done on the basis of faith alone.

Mm-hmm.

And that if by faith alone you mean that we're not bringing our own works to the table-

Mm-hmm

apart from the infusion of the theological virtues, faith, hope and love.

Um, then, yeah, I, I think we can agree to that.

You know, Cardinal Ratzinger said, If, if you don't just- juxtapose solafide and charity we can say yes to that.

Like, if what you mean is Pelagianism is wrong, yeah, we're the ones who condemn Pelagianism.

Mm-hmm.

We even went further and condemned Semi-Pelagianism.

But- but if what you mean by that is that like you don't have to cor- like cooperate with faith, hope and love, then, then we're- we're no longer on the same page.

And just to-

Yeah

just to affirm what- what Joe is saying there, I mean, I think y- if you're thinking of a way to, um, synthesize the Biblical material here, I th- I mean this is one way I've- I've found is- is helpful to kinda summarize it, that God does not call us according to our works, but He will repay us according to our works.

Mm-hmm.

He does not call us according to our works, but he will repay us according to our works.

And He can do that precisely because what He does by His work, and the renewal that He gives us by the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant, He really does bring us new life.

He enables us to become a new creation so that when he is, you know, repaying us according to our work, it's not our, you know, our independent work, it's His work within us, which, you know, by, uh, you know, by the power of the Holy Spirit we've now been able to become what is truly a new thing.

Now, we have a, we- we participate in that by, you know, by His grace He- he gives us the, uh, you know, the dignity of a role with- within that.

Um, but it's something that He initiates and that He gives to us.

And so I- I often find that if you can articulate these- these things really clearly, um, not only is it I, you know, I- I guess I would say to, you know, to- to Protestant friends that I've Not- not only is it something where it's like, Oh, I guess that's- that's okay.

It's often like, Oh wait, that- that makes sense.

And that makes sense of things where I've always kind of gotten trapped in, you know, either/or.

So it's either you- you- you end up in the, it's, you know, it- it sounds like it's all- all grace, um, and then, uh, and then you f- you know, either- either through experience or just through reading the Bible, um, you end up thinking, Ah gosh, what's going on?

There's I'm leaving behind stuff here.

And so then you can end up with what does end up sometimes being a kind of legalism where you're trying to, in a sense, compensate for the part of, you know, our response that has been left behind.

Uh, and so I think that, uh, you- you know, that the way that- that the Christianity traditionally and- and, you know, the Catholic Church today goes and ar- articulates this can actually be really freeing and life-giving, uh, for, you know, our- our Protestant brothers and sisters who often find themselves trapped within this kind of either/or thinking, where you're either on one side or then you're reacting against that, and you're o- you're the other- other side.

Um, and I mean, I know in, you know, my own experience I've definitely st- found that to be the case.

I wanna shift gears here and, um, talk a little bit about the role or relationship of scripture in Catholicism versus, you know, scripture in the, um, place of Protestant theology.

Again, I know it's- it's kinda hard to pin down the Protestants here.

We're talking about the confessional ones, pretty much all of them affirm Sola Scriptura.

Yes, they- they might have different perspectives on the role or relationship of theology and develo- developing it in light of scripture, but most of them are gonna say that at the very least, uh, they would be in agreement that scripture is the in- sole infallible rule.

Now, they might admit other rules outside of scripture, but they're not gonna say that those are infallible.

Could we maybe talk about how that fares with the Catholic perspective, starting with you, Father Dican.

Uh, any thoughts here?

Right.

So the- the- the Protestant emphasis upon scripture i- is actually one of their, uh, one of their points I think we can learn from.

So on one hand, you know, in our tradition we have scripture, but we also have sacred tradition, we draw from both.

Um, the Protestant churches still draw from tradition even though they may not admit it.

I mean, very few of them are really truly Sola Scriptura.

Um, but the fact that they look at that as their source has caused them to put a lot of time and energy into studying it, learning it, absorbing it.

And, uh, we as Catholics have a tendency to kind of put that off, right?

I mean, that's part of the issue that I had.

I went to a Catholic school growing up, um, through sixth grade.

I was involved in catechism classes.

I didn't know the basics of the scriptures.

So when I encountered, um, Protestants who knew scripture, I couldn't respond to their arguments.

Um, so on one hand, it's unfortunate that they're missing sacred tradition, and that is a significant loss along with all that is lost along with it.

But on the ver- other hand, the good that comes out of that, the good that comes out of that is a love for scripture and understanding of scripture that we as Catholics can learn a whole lot from.

So I think it's important for us to kind of follow their example in this regard.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, Dr. Thomas, let me come to you.

Your thoughts on this matter, and also, um, maybe comments on what Father Dican just said.

Yeah.

This is something where, you know, I'll say, uh, you know, my- my own background which, uh, you know, have I'm really not from a Christian background at all and been through all kinds of varieties of, you know, Protestantism.

That is something that I- I would say that is really an authentically Catholic you know, doctrine and practice in the sense of being true to the historic Catholic faith and historic Christianity as it's been lived out through the centuries, which lots of Protestants, and particularly active Protestants, Evangelical Protestants, um, have, have retained and which they, uh, often on a, you know, day-to-day live level, they retain and practice at a, a, I think, you know, at a higher level than your, your average, you know, Catholic or, or Orthodox.

And, and I think that's, I think that's fantastic.

You know, there is, there's a sense in which, um, you know, my own theological formation as it, you know, as a younger person, would it have been enriched, would, would my own character have, you know, uh Would I have not fallen into some of the problems that I felt, fell into if I actually had a church as well as a Bible?

Mm-hmm.

If it wasn't just, just me on my own.

Yeah, that would've been really great, uh, because then I wouldn't have been able to kind of twist it however I wanted to at any given, given moment, um, without anybody to tell me otherwise.

Um, that would've been really, really helpful for, for me.

Um, but at the same time, um, there is an appreciation for how it is that God can and does speak to us through scripture that I knew firsthand that, you know, you know, my, you know, Catholic friends, you know, grow, grew up, didn't necessarily know in the same, same kind of way in which has, you know, borne a lot of fruit in my life.

Um, I would also say this is another area which I think similar to the relationship between, between faith and works and as it relates to, you know, justification, salvation, all those, all those things.

This is another area where I, I typically find when, um, Protestants actually see what Catholics believe when it comes to the authority of scripture and the relationship between scripture and tradition, I don't know if I can recall a Protestant disagreeing with it once they actually hear it.

Uh, and there's all kinds of, I mean, you can find this in the catechism.

Um, you know, there's, you know, Saint, Saint Thomas in the Summa as far as the stuff that he goes and says about, you know, the supreme authority of scripture.

Um, if you look at, you know, Augustine Contra Faustum is a great, a great resource where he goes and he talks about the way in which, you know, scripture has a sacredness that's peculiar to itself.

Um, and there's an authority that the apostolic writings have where there's a sense in which it's, their, their authority is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit in a way that isn't true of, you know, Augustine said, my own writings, you know, our own writings, but they don't, they don't carry that, that same kind of authority because there's something that definitive, that's definitive that God has given through scripture, and that is the means by which, you know, God intends and desires for, uh, you know, subsequent writings such as those of Saint Augustine or those of Faustus, you know, to be, to be measured.

And there's something that's really good and healthy about that.

The, the question then is, well, what is, what is, what do, what do you need tradition for?

And Saint Augustine will tell you, Aquinas will tell you, um, you know, if you look, I love, uh, Saint Vincent of, of Lérins here, he's really good.

Um, i- i- uh, Francis de Sales is really good.

Uh, all, all of them will tell you, as really honestly any Protestant who stops and thinks about it will as well, that there are disagreements when it comes to what is the meaning of scripture.

Mm-hmm.

And how do we actually make it so that our obedience to scripture is real as well as intended?

That is where the authority of the church comes in.

That's where the authority of the church's tradition comes in.

And thank God, you know, when it comes to the, you know, the essential matters of the faith when we look within the early church in the early centuries, which is part of my own story, is just saying this, you really do find coherence.

You really do find cohesion.

I had sort of thought that it would be a cacophony like my own theology as well, a cacophony.

My own experience is like a ca- cacophony.

And it, and it's not.

The, if you look at what Saint Irenaeus goes and attests to in Against Heresies, uh, you know, around 180 AD when he talks about, you know, how the, the whole church spread throughout the world still speaks as though she had only one voice.

It, you can recognize that.

You can, you can see that, and it's, I think, a mark of the true faith and a, a mark of, you know, the, the Spirit's operation in keeping, um, you know, both, you know, brothers and sisters in unity, but also doctrine in unity as well.

And I think that that deposit is something that is meant for all, all Christians, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox.

It's part, it's part of, you know, all, all of our own heritage.

I can't hear you, Michael.

Sorry about that.

I was still on mute.

Uh, Joe, your perspective here.

Thoughts on what we've heard so far and just on this topic in general.

Yeah.

So I, I think this has been really good stuff so far.

I wanna make a few distinctions just to make sure they're there.

Um, we mentioned already the non-turtles have like a bunch of different views.

You know, that there's a bunch of different types of Protestantism in, uh, the shapes of Sola Scriptura.

I'm gonna Joe, just you know, I'm gonna tell my wife that Joe stole my non-turtles.

Yeah.

What did you do today?

I asked.

God, you stole my non-turtles.

Yes, exactly.

The, uh, yeah.

So like within that broad world, you're gonna have a bunch of different views on, on even what Sola Scriptura means.

So like Keith Mathison in The Shape of Sola Scriptura, he argues that there's a distinction between what he calls Solo Scriptura-

Mm-hmm.

And Sola Scriptura, or tradition zero and tradition one.

And I think in some ways, um, that may be a distinction without a difference when push comes to shove .

but certainly in the self-understanding a lot of these Protestants have, some will say, No, no, I take tradition very seriously.

Mm-hmm.

And i- with the implicit caveat, except when it disagrees with some important tenet of the faith.

Uh, while others will say, I don't take tradition seriously.

I think tradition is just a slow decl- decay of Christianity from the time of the Apostles until the Reformation.

And i- it's important to know that that's, like, a, a huge debate within Protestantism.

Now, the reason I say in some ways it may be, uh, a distinction without a difference-

Mm

is I So, I've had, got a new book.

I'm not trying to do a shameless plug, but I'll do it.

Uh, called The Early Church Was the Catholic Church, and in it I look at a few important issues.

What did the early Christians, r- really, like, before the year 200, believe about baptism?

What'd they believe about the Eucharist?

Uh, what did they believe about the structure of the Church?

And almost all Protestants disagree with the unanimous view of the Church fathers and, and everyone in early Christianity.

Like, everyone remotely Christian in early Christianity, uh, on these really big issues.

And so a, a respect for tradition that doesn't include believing that they got the Mass right or believing that they got the entrance to the Church right, or beli- You know, like, it's not actually that much respect for tradition, I would argue.

That's why I think in some ways it's, it's a distinction without a difference.

But that's, uh, the, the first kinda distinction within Protestantism.

Well, within Sola Scriptura, there's also a difference from a Catholic perspective as well, between material and formal sufficiency.

Mm-hmm.

Um, material sufficiency is everything necessary for salvation is in Scripture.

Formal sufficiency involves the interpretation of Scripture.

Another way to think about it is that when we talk about the role of tradition, there's two possible meanings we could have.

The f- the first is tradition provides some substantive fact that isn't known or knowable from Scripture alone.

Uh, the obvious cases would be something like the Dormition and Assumption of the Blessed Virgin.

Um, but the more common way that tradition comes into play is how do we make sense of what Scripture means?

And so that's the, the role.

Like, you could believe in material sufficiency of Scripture and still think we need infallible tradition to know what a materially sufficient Scripture means.

So as a Catholic, you could believe in material sufficiency.

But the, the role of the Church or the role of tradition in interpreting Scripture is where the rubber meets the road.

A- as Jerome says, The d- the debate is not about the letter of Scripture, but about the meaning of it.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so in that sense, I think it's something that we could take very seriously.

Any- anyone interested in this, I'd recommend paragraphs nine and 10 of Dei Verbum, the Vatican II document on the Word of God.

It explains the relationship between Scripture and the tradition and the Magisterium from a Catholic perspective.

For anyone who disagrees with that, anyone who says, No, no, Scripture is all we need, I think it's sufficient to say, how do we know which books belong in Scripture?

And the fact that any kind of authoritative judgment is gonna rely on a, an authoritative role of non-scriptural authority, the Apostles, the visible Church.

However you understand that you're going to have to appeal to someone outside of Scripture itself to even tell you these books are inspired and canonical, because the books don't tell you th- that themselves.

There's no inspired table of contents.

Uh, even things like, Well, we believe in the Gospels because they're apostolic, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John don't identify themselves.

So, even the fact that we know the apostolic origin of the Gospels, and you can go on and on and on.

These are all facts and important details for accepting the authority of Scripture that build on tradition.

And I think we see this very clearly in the life of Martin Luther.

I think he does have what seems like a pretty good-natured, good faith objection at the Diet of Worms where he says, Well, it seems like the councils in the Church contradict themselves.

So I'm gonna go with Scripture alone.

Here I stand, I can do no others.

That line may be added later.

But the, the gist is there.

But by the end of his life, he's taking books out of the Bible and saying which books do and don't belong.

Like, once you decide you don't need tradition, even as a way of trying to preserve the supremacy and, uh, singular authority of Scripture, the end result is in fact that the authority of Scripture is undermined.

You don't know which books are in the canon and you don't know which books or what th- what the message of those books are.

Excellent.

Um, I wanna open up the floor here for us to have a free-for-all on this topic, and then we're gonna get to chat questions.

So, live chat questions.

Anybody who wants to jump in, go ahead.

Yeah, yeah, uh, a couple of things.

So, first of all, um, what you were saying about authority, authority in Scripture, uh, that whole question, uh, resonates with me.

When I was a teenager and going through that phase in which I was questioning Catholicism significantly, uh, my Protestant friends who knew the Bible so well, I remember I asked them a question, and I did not, I did not know the answer to myself and I thought that they would, and it was this.

Um, where did the Bible come from?

Who put it together?

And my one Protestant friend who I was so impressed with, he said the following.

He said, Well, there was a group of men who were very wise and guided by the Holy Spirit, they chose the books that go in the Bible.

Now, looking back on that today, clearly Catholic bishops, right?

Uh, but at the time I was like, Oh, I guess that makes sense.

Uh, but that's the whole issue, right?

The whole issue is who has the authority to determine what is Scripture and what isn't?

Who has the authority to determine how you interpret Scripture?

And getting to what you were saying, Joe, about Martin Luther, how at the end of his life he was taking books outta the Bible, maybe one of you guys can, can verify this for me.

I, I saw this once somewhere, I have not been able to find it again.

I recall reading, uh, where Martin Luther was talking about what books go in the Scriptures and-I read this somewhere.

Supposedly when pushed on the issue as to how he knew what books belonged in, what books did not belong, his response was, Dr. Luther is the doctor of doctors.

Is that true, or is that an urban legend or something?

That might be related to his translation of Romans 3:28.

Yeah.

He adds in a line that isn't in St. Paul's writing.

Like, he just, like, makes St. Paul look a little more Lutheran than he was.

Oh, I see.

Uh, and he said, If a papist will object, tell him Luther will have it so.

And, it's that kind of

So that

modest view.

Yeah.

So it's interesting actually.

I think that the line is maybe adapted from his open letter in translating from 1531, if I remember correctly.

What's- what's funny, Joe, you mentioned, so Diet of Worms, uh, 1521 Sorry, open letter translated 1531.

His September testament, so the New Testament that he goes and publishes, is 1522.

So it's the next year.

And that's the first instance of having the four, the four books of the New Testament, which are in an appendix now.

So you have instead of 27 books of the New Testament, you have 23 books of the New Testament.

And then you have these, you know It's- it's- it's usually, h-h-historically, it's actually, uh, you know, we think of the Apocrypha as an Old Testament term, it's something that goes and originates with- with- with Luther.

Actually, he first does this with the New Testament, with- with James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation.

And so it doesn't take- take long, you know, by the end of his life.

It literally is the next year that this goes- goes and takes place.

And then subsequently when they talk about the Old Testament, you have this similar treatment that goes and happens with Maccabees, et cetera.

So, um, all this to say is, this isn't something that takes a whole lot of time to develop.

It literally is, it's the next year.

So, in September.

So it always comes back to authority, right?

Either the church is the authority or Martin Luther is the authority, but somebody has to be the authority here.

And by the way, I- I saw something on TV a few years back.

I don't remember the name of the pastor, but it was an interview with a very well-known evangelical pastor.

I forget who he was.

Um, not one of the, you know, mega-church guys with, uh, all the glitz and all the money, but it was somebody else who I kind of respected, as I recall.

Uh, but he was doing an interview with somebody and talking about his own faith journey, and he was talking about during his time in seminary, uh, at- at the Protestant seminary, that he hit upon something that caused him a huge stumbling block in faith.

He said he began reading the writings of Martin Luther.

And he said when he began reading Luther, he was devastated, because what Luther was saying didn't make sense, and he found a lot of it objectionable and even wrong.

And he said that he almost lost his faith from reading Martin Luther, and it took him a long time to come back from that.

I thought that was one of the most honest things I heard a, uh, you know, evangelical pastor ever say.

Yeah, I- I like that y- what both you guys are saying here.

Maybe if I can just build off of that.

Yeah, that's a, a good point, Doctor, in terms of it only taking really a year.

Uh, it did make it sound like it took a whole lifetime.

You- you see this kind of spiraling out of control right away.

And the rest of Luther's life, I would argue, from either a Catholic or a Protestant perspective, Luther both becomes less Catholic and less apparently holy.

Uh, just to give one or two examples, like the way he turns on the more radical reformers and argues against the Peasants' Revolt and wants to have a bunch of peasants basically murdered for following his own, uh, inspirations.

Uh, that's not a good look, and it seems like an obvious turn for the worse.

Uh, his views on the Jews get, uh, abhorrent.

They don't start out, you know, particularly enlightened.

And certainly the Catholic Church in the 16th century in Germany wasn't a famously hospitable place for Jewish believers.

But Luther gets markedly worse.

He starts out as a Reformer arguing the only reason the Jews haven't become Christians is because Catholics have corrupted the gospel.

Once they hear the uncorrupted, meaning Lutheran, version of the gospel, then- then they'll convert.

By the end of his life when, of course, that doesn't happen.

Uh, he writes On the Jews and Their Lies and argues that, you know, synagogues should be burnt down and rabbis should be, uh, persecuted and killed.

Uh, Hitler uses this stuff later, and not, it's not that big of a stretch to- to get from where Luther ends up.

My point there is that it should give us some cause for alarm, from- from just the Christian perspective.

Like, you know a tree by its fruits.

If this is of God, why is the founder not holy?

Why is the founder not a saint?

Uh, you know, you look at the major true reform movements in the church, y- for instance, Francis of Assisi.

The dude gets better and better.

Luther, even from the perspective of a Protestant, seems to get worse and worse, which I- I mention this because Father Deacon mentions, uh, you know, the Protestant pastor who goes back and reads Luther and is scandalized by him.

I bet a lot of people reading Luther are gonna say either the early stuff is way too Catholic or the later stuff is just nasty, that even a lot of Lutherans distance themselves from Melanchthon and others.

Um, I don't know.

I just, that should give anyone who considers themselves in the tradition of Luther pause, and cause for alarm, I would argue.

Can I throw in one more open thing, Michael?

Yeah.

This is, uh, you know, I- I- I agree 100% with the thi- things here, and I think honestly, um, you know, the- the- the best way, uh, in a sense to, uh, you know, evangelize a Protestant friend is to have them read the writings of Martin Luther.

Um, that's, I- I- I That's, uh, I mean, that's part of why, uh, you know, I think reading Luther is- is important for a lot of reasons.

And you, one can find, you know, good things in there.

Um, but I- I Wh- you know, what you guys were both saying about your experiences, uh, you know, resonates with me as- as- as well in my- my own experience in the kind of crises that, you know, encountering him, um, you know, set- set me in.

Um, but it's interesting though 'cause I think, if I think of, gosh, what do you You know, coming a- coming a- away from something like this, what do I think is, like, you know, most important for thinking, like, h- how do we engage with- with- with Protestant friends?

Because yeah, there's things, there's ideas there that are, you know, can be erroneous and, um, you know, stuff within various traditions that, you know, problematic.

I, for- for me, I find that the most helpful things to think about when we go and engage in the Protestants.

Um, there's, there's two of them, and two things that I think I just try to focus on, um, and that I've seen, you know, God bear fruit through.

Um, one of them is gratitude.

So having a genuine sense of gratitude for the way that God continues to work through all kinds of various, you know, Protestant churches, all kinds of whatever they ha- ha- happen to be.

Um, and, and I can look at my own story and see, I've been a part of so many different churches which had so many strange beliefs and practices, uh, which were mutually exclusive to one another and often mutually abhorrent to one another.

Um, and that did not stop God from using them in my own life to bring me closer to him.

And that doesn't mean that they necessarily had, you know, the fullness of, you know, of truth.

I mean, logically it'd be impossible 'cause they're all saying different stuff.

Um, but there's still a sense of God can use even, you know, he can, he can use Balaam's donkey.

You know, he can use, he can use everyth- and, and, and, you know, our Protestant brothers and sisters, um, most of them are doing a lot better than Balaam's donkey.

Most of them have, you know, uh, in large part, if not close to all of it, you know, the historic Christian faith as it's, has been passed, passed along.

In essence, um, it just often happens to be missing one, one or, you know, another thing, or have, you know, one thing sort of, uh, you know, maybe, maybe, uh, twisted in one way or another.

So tha- that's the first thing I always come back to, is just the When, when I, when I'm, you know, when I'm, when I'm chatting with Protestant friends that seems to always make a really big difference for them when they recognize that I am genuinely grateful for their relationship with God and for their ministry, that I just, I thank God for it.

Um, that's something that I think because Protestants, again, because it's a negative term, not a Protestant, uh, not, not a positive term, you tend to be looking to Catholics to set the example.

And when Catholics really positively set the example and are really grateful for what God is doing in and through their lives, it really seems to have an impact.

Uh, and I think that we, we're meant to lead in that way.

Uh, the, the, the second, second thing is, is humility.

If we think of a- again, as I, as I was, you know, mentioning, um, i- if our understanding of, you know, of Protestants is that, you know, one group or another, whatever it happens to be, whatever percentage it is, that they have less than the fullness of truth, they do have truth.

It's absolutely there.

It is a real Christian truth.

But it's less than the, than the full truth as it is, you know, preserved within, you know, within the holy church.

Um, it's really helpful, I think for us to look and see, and you guys have brought this up, um, wha- Often even just having small amounts of that truth, you can see God is doing extraordinary things through these people, extraordinary things.

And, you know, often i- it's, if it, it's , I joke with my friends all the time, you know, it's of- often that, you know, evangelical churches and it being sort of the evangelistic arm of the Catholic Church and that they're sort of doing our work for us and doing your kind of ground level base, uh, ev- you know, evangelistic stuff.

And then after they start growing in sanctification and they're like, Oh, and then I'll kind of go to then I'll, and I'll become, become Catholic.

I think that for, for us, I think it's so important, um, you know, if we take the principle, you know, to he who's much given- much is given, much will be required, to recognize that we need to have absolute humility when we're looking at, you know, our brothers and sisters and thinking, If we really do have this, you know, the fullness of this, well, gosh, even with those that don't have the fullness, there's still something that's real that's there.

And we wanna honor that and we wanna not, not, you know, not be condescending, not be, uh, anything but just say, God, how can, how can I, if you have given me, you know, the fullness of your, of your goodness, how is it that I can be faithful with this in a way that displays the truth of what you've given us?

Um, I just, for, for, for me, I find that that spiritually having that disposition is really helpful for me, and it, I think has helped me a lot to, um, be able to be an encouragement to, to Protestants but also help them to, you know, take the steps that I think are, are necessary to recognize that no, we are actually meant to be in unity and that this is the context in which unity is meant to take, take place.

Fa- Father Deacon, your thoughts.

I, I wanna really, uh, commend what Dr. Thomas is saying because to me it's so true.

We need to approach this with humility.

Um, you know, by the grace of God I'm Catholic, right?

But the reality is God has used Protestant Christians in my life in a powerful, powerful way.

And, you know, from a Catholic perspective, they may not have the fullness of truth, but they have some truth, um, more than we're, we recognize sometimes.

And I've seen God using them.

What comes to mind for me is, uh, the story in the Gospel of Mark, in chapter nine, where the apostles find this guy who's not one of them, not part of their group, but he's casting out demons in the name of Jesus.

They're like, You know, Master, should we stop this guy from doing this?

He's using your name to cast out demons.

And Jesus says, No, let him, you know, he's not against us, he's with us.

And I, I think that applies to this in a large way.

Uh, these individuals may not be part of our, you know, the Catholic Church visibly, but they are invisibly connected to us and they are with us, they are with us.

Uh, things may be lacking, there may be differences, but God does work through them.

A, a powerful example of this that comes to mind right now is the, uh, the fellow Dallas Jenkins.

Mm-hmm.

He's a, you know, evangelical Protestant.

He created this amazing program called The Chosen.

Have you guys seen it?

Mm-mm.

Uh, The Chosen?

It is incredible.

It is one of the best things I've ever seen.

And God is using this program, The Chosen, to reach people in a powerful, powerful way.

I've been watching it with my daughter, with my 11-year-old daughter, and my, with my wife, and we just love it.

And my daughter has learned so much scripture from this show, The Chosen .

in Dallas Jenkins, by the way, interestingly enough, his father is one of the authors of the Left Behind series.

Mm-hmm.

Pretty, pretty anti-Catholic, those books.

Like, uh, they're explicitly anti-Catholic.

Dallas Jenkins isn't.

From day one, he brought in a Catholic priest, and then later, a Catholic bishop to be scripture consultants on the show.

He hired an actor who's a devout Catholic to play Jesus.

And, uh, he actually went to Rome and met with the Pope not too long ago.

Um, he's definitely not anti-Catholic.

Mm-hmm.

He works with Catholics.

And amazingly, the show itself, he pulls in elements of Catholic tradition.

Uh, you know, for example, Jesus meets the woman at the well, her name is Photina.

That's right out of tradition, right?

There's all kinds of things he pulls from sacred tradition that are not in scripture, and, and uses to, to enrich the stories.

God is using these Protestant Christians in a way that is awesome.

And, you know, I look at it like this.

What God does is bring beauty out of failure.

He brings victory out of tragedy.

And that's the cross, right?

That's the whole point of the cross.

What appears to be a failure can be a moment for victory.

Well, the Reformation and the schism in the West and the splitting of Christianity was a- a terrible, terrible tragedy.

But in a way, I think God is bringing something good out of it.

Uh, it may not be apparent to us, but there are things coming out of the Protestant movement that may ultimately rich us in the end.

God can bring good out of, out of what appears to be evil.

Joe, any thoughts there?

Yeah, I guess I'd only add maybe one or two things.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, number one, I really like, um, the reference to Luke 12:48.

To whom much has been given, much will be expected.

Like, the Protestant who's making the most of the 66 books of their Bible, I'm less worried about him than I am about the Catholic who doesn't read the 73 books of his.

Um, probably.

I mean, there's All o- all other things being equal.

You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Like, the person We've been given so much and we will be without excuse on the day of judgment if we don't make the most of that.

Um, so triumphalism isn't That's not where it's at.

Um, but second, yeah, I mean, look at the way Jesus interacts with the Samaritans.

The Samaritans are heretics.

I mean, they just are.

Like, they've- they've mixed the truth of God with false doctrine.

Like, they're at a worse spot doctrinally than, than any Protestants are.

'Cause Protestants are just like, you know, severing part of the truth.

They're not mixing in some crazy new, like, pagan thing.

And Jesus does so much with Samaritans, uh, that I, I think we should take that very seriously.

So yeah, that's all.

Excellent, very good point there.

Um, uh, if Unless y'all had any other follow-up comments, I, I see some stuff in the chat that I was gonna grab.

Um, okay.

Uh, this is from Gregory.

What are we to make of the view held by some Eastern Orthodox, that Protestantism is a branch of Catholicism and the two need to be reunited before there can be an East and West reunion?

This is kind of like that Callistus Ware claim that Protestantism, Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.

And so, uh, yeah, what, what do y'all think about that?

Anybody who wants to grab that one.

Go ahead, Joe.

I, I might take it just to give it

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Um, I was at an Eastern Orthodox Church for a Greek fest and got in a conversation with the priest there and said, Okay, from your perspective, like, what are the major differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that need to be worked out?

And he said, Well, you guys only have 66 books in your Bible and we've got 73.

I was just like, What?

Like, that's not even a real thing.

That's, that's not one of the things that we gotta work out.

Like, I don't, I don't know if you've counted the books lately, but we actually have 73 books.

So I think there's sometimes a mutual misunderstanding between East and West, and it's i- by no means confined to one direction.

And so just like there's a tendency to wanna, like, group the 22 sui generis ch- churches in Roman Catholicism that are in the East together as like one indistinguishable blob, I, I think this is the same thing in the other direction.

The te- like, all forms of Protestantism is the same, you know, the not turtles thing again, I'm stealing it one more time, is a mistake.

To group Catholicism in with that as just like Western Christianity is like putting turtles and non-turtles together into just one.

So it, it's, it's a worthless categorical error, I would argue.

Yeah, that's, that's curious because w- generally, Orthodox are gonna concede 76 books in their canon, and then some reject the deuterocanonicals and say only 66.

So that's just odd there.

I, I wanted to find out how many books he actually had, but like-

Yeah

it was clear he was just repeating a talking point that he'd like remembered.

Yeah.

Right.

And it was awkward enough, like, just to be like, You got my number of books wrong.

I think you've got your number of books

Right.

Right.

Okay.

Uh-

And I'd like to res-

Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I'd like to respond to that whole issue of, you know, uh, Catholicism and Protestantism being, you know, two sides of the same coin.

You hear that all the time in Orthodox circles.

Um, there's some truth to it, but a lot more falsehood.

The truth to it is this, Protestantism and Catholicism, s- specifically Western Catholicism, uh, tend to focus on the same key questions, right?

There are certain controversies that both sides are equally focused on.

Uh, and these tend to be the issues that led to the Protestant, you know, Reformation in the first place.

Um, and these tend to be issues that in Eastern Christianity, whether Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, we don't really even think about.

Um, things that, that don't even cross our minds tend to be focuses of, of extreme attention in the West.

There's the truth to it, but the falsehood to it is this, um, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have way more in common, uh, in the sense that we're both apostolic churches who draw from the fathers.

And again, a lot of Orthodox apologists define themselves against Catholicism.

They define themselves against the West .

so they don't want to admit how close they are with Catholics-

Mm-hmm

Um, so they create this, this false division where Catholics and Protestants are one and the same, when really, from a Protestant perspective actually, in some ways even Catholics and Orthodox are one and the same.

That's a really good point.

Um, Dr. Thomas, did you have any comments here?

No.

Those are-

Okay

I think those are both really good.

And-

Oh

my turtles got stolen again.

My non-, my non-turtles.

Again.

How many?

So I got, I got, I got nothing left.

That was it.

Yeah.

I have no more insights.

.

This is from Germanicus Caesar 117.

In my experience, the Blessed Virgin can be a stumbling block for Protestants.

What is the best way to communicate Catholic Mariology to Protestants?

An- anybody who wants to can grab it.

I can, I can start and you guys can-

Okay

go with whatever you want.

Um, I find the best thing to do is open up the Bible.

Um, so that's kinda it.

.

Uh, it was, uh If you open up to Revelation 12, um This is actually fun.

I was, Michael, I remember we were talking before, um, about, uh, our friend Nabeel Qureshi, uh, who passed away a few years ago.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, he was just a fantastic, fantastic guy.

And, um, this was towards the end of his life, eh, 'cause we, we would chat about this stuff all the time.

He was listening to a Catholic radio station, and he was, he was saying, Yeah, this is cool.

But there's some, something about like Mary is like c- queen of heaven, or something like that.

And he was just like, Where did you guys get that from?

That's so weird.

Like, I mean, I get the rest of this, but that's odd.

And I'm like, Well, why don't you open up the Bible and see?

He's like, What do you mean the Bible?

Yeah.

Re- open up Revelation 12.

So he goes and opens up Revelation 12.

'Cause, I mean, usually as Protestants it's like either, you either you love the Book of Revelation and then you become weird, and/or- you just don't really w- read the Book of Revelation.

Um, because you don't wanna turn into one of those, those weird people.

And so, uh, so mo- uh, yeah, most people from kind, our kind of background don't really do anything.

And so he opened up Revelation 12, and he was like, it was almost like he'd never seen, seen the thing before.

And so he's looking at this, Okay, so who gives birth to Mary?

Or sorry, Who gives birth to Jesus?

Well, it's Mary who gives birth to Jesus.

So it would seem to be Mary.

And he's like, Okay, well, what is she wearing?

Well, she's, uh, wearing a crown, and it's got these 12 stars.

And I'm like, okay, she's got a crown.

Um, who normally wears a crown?

Well, I I guess it's usually the, it's usually a queen who wears a crown.

Like, okay, so she seems like the queen.

Or maybe it's a I'm like, Well, do you think it's like a decorative crown?

Like, what do you did deg- did de- did, uh, did she like get it from Claire's or something?

Um, i- usually if you got a crown, like, it's, it's a, you know, biblically this is a sign of like you are a queen.

This is like real, real royalty.

And there's only seems to be one person who seems to fit this, uh, as far as who's, you'd, you'd be talking about.

Who else gives, gives birth to Jesus?

And, um, and then you have she is in the sky, which is the same word for heaven, Ouranos.

And so there's, there it is.

That's where you get the Queen of Heaven.

It's literally tha- what you, you know, this thing that sounded so foreign to him was literally just what Revelation 12 says, word for word.

He just hadn't gone to Revelation, because we tend to not do that, 'cause we don't wanna turn into strange people, like our friends who get into Revelation too much.

So then you have at the end of it, you know, you have that she is the one who's the mother of all the faithful who go and, you know, who obey all, you know, the, you know, the, the, the commandments of Christ.

And that's re- I've You stop and think at the end of Revelation 12, the thoughts said, you think, Where's the parallel for this?

Well, you think of, you think of, eh, the end of John's Gospel, the Behold your mother thing.

And Protestants will be the first to tell you, No, there's Mary's got other kids.

She's got other people around.

It's not just, not just Jesus.

Most of them are gonna think that it is, you know, actual, you know, kids who are there, who are her own, her own children.

Which then just makes it even stranger.

Why is it that Why would Jesus be saying Behold your mother to John?

It's not as though she's in practical need of, like, caretaking or something like that.

Um, why is that?

Behold your mother and behold your son.

Why does that go and happen?

Um, what's interesting is if, you know, if we see John as, uh, you know, as the same author, which you don't necessarily have to, but if you do take that view, what's interesting then is it would seem as though John is applying in the vision that Christ is giving him what was true of him, so Mary's mothership, the fact that Mary is to be his, his mother, as the beloved disciple, to all disciples.

That all disciples in some way go and take Mary as their mother.

Everybody who goes and obeys the commandments of Christ, she, she is the one who, who, who gives birth to them in a sense.

Um, it's Actually, if you s- if you just stop and look at Revelation 12 there, there's so much that's already in the text.

And I think that honestly everything within, um, or, you know, all the major points I would say of the, you know, the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of Mary, you can just take it back from, from scripture and just see how it's, how it's there just in places we weren't necessarily looking.

Father Deacon, uh, any comments there?

Yes.

So I wanna go back again to that wonderful series The Chosen, right?

It's made by Dallas Jenkins, whose father wrote the Left Behind books.

Uh, most of the people involved in producing it are Protestant.

But this show has the most developed and most impressive, and in many ways most Catholic presentation of Mary I've ever seen.

Um, in the show itself And seriously, you guys have gotta go back and watch this from the beginning.

First episode.

You have to watch this.

It's really that good.

And just to give it a quick plug, here's how I discovered The Chosen.

I was on Facebook.

One of my friends is my old professor, Dr. Hahn, you know, Scott Hahn.

And Scott Hahn was posting on Facebook about how he watched The Chosen and how biblical it was and how impressed it w- impressive it was and how much he loved it.

And he was urging everyone to watch it.

For me, that's a huge recommendation.

And then e- the person responded.

The actor who plays Jesus responded and says, Dr. Hahn, I'm so glad you're a fan of the show.

I'm a huge fan of you.

At that point, I knew I had to watch this, right?

And in the show, Mary is front and center.

Uh, she comes in partway through the first season, and then she's a fixture.

And I believe she's in every episode of the second season, and she is Mary as we know her.

And it's amazing.

Like, Wedding at Cana episode is one of the best.

Usually, a lot of these Jesus movies and Jesus TV shows shy away from the Wedding at Cana 'cause, number one, Jesus is making alcohol.

And number two, uh, Mary is the one who tells him to work the miracle.

In this episode, Jesus is reluctant.

He doesn't want to do it, and his mom tells him to do it.

He listens to his mom.

It's that clear in the episode.

And then, recently, they had a Christmas special, The Chosen Christmas Special, and part of it takes place in the future.

And by the future, I mean the future of the show when the Apostles are being martyred, Jesus has ascended into Heaven, and Mary is an old woman.

And what's intriguing is the Apostles and the Disciples all refer to her as Mother Mary.

That's the, the name they give her, Mother Mary.

And, uh, again, what's happening here is these Protestant Christians who are making the show are discovering things in the Bible that we, that we already believe.

And they're bringing them to life in this wonderful show.

God is doing something here.

God really is.

Y- you've got to see it.

It's incredible.

Excellent.

Joe, uh, any thoughts there?

Yeah.

Uh, so I haven't seen the show, but I, I want to tap into something there.

Whatever one thinks of The Chosen, which again, like I'm not real- I've seen like half an episode.

Um, I think it's pointing to something real, which is that the creative imagination is a really important thing to heal and transform for Mary to make sense.

And I wanna tie that into something we said a, a long bit earlier, which is, uh Actually, this really gets back to, I think, why so many Orthodox think of, uh, Western Catholicism and Protestantism as two halves of the same coin, which is the questions being asked.

If theosis drops out of it, and it's just like, What's the bare minimum I need to do to be saved?

Well, that bare minimum kind of approach to Christianity, you just view Mary as like, Well, this is one more thing I don't absolutely need.

But if instead, it's like, No, no, I'm meant to live and live life to the fullest.

And taking that approach is so repugnant to discipleship, that minimalist approach, that what can Mary offer me?

And what can I learn from, like, having a relationship with her in the way the Beloved Disciple did?

That, I think, is a, it's a just a different mindset, and I think it's worth calling out this sufficiency, minimalist mindset as abhorrent to Christianity.

That if you just say, like, What's the least Christian I need to be to not go to Hell?

Mm-hmm.

You're already asking the wrong question.

Mm-hmm.

And so the question like, Do we need Mary?

is a bad question.

It's a badly formulated question.

And th- the question should rather be, What can we learn from Mary?

Exactly.

And what can we learn from the scriptural depiction of Mary?

Point well-made.

Last question here.

This is from Cole.

How can we explain the fact that apparent miracles are happening in Protestant churches?

For example, healings at Pentecostal services and the like.

Who wants to grab that one?

I'll, I'll take it, I think.

I mean, I'm happy to-

Go ahead

take the first stab.

Yeah.

There's a difference between people who are actively in schism from the church, who say like, Okay, Jesus, I see your church, and I reject it.

Mm-hmm.

And then there are people You know, like, I Look, I, I live in Kansas.

This is the birthplace of Pentecostalism.

You've got people here who've never known anything else.

So when they're saying yes to that, j- it's not part of their, like, rejection of Roman Catholicism.

It's their yes to revelation as they've received it.

In the same way that, you know, uh, the person who has Whatever, whatever you're, you've got, that's what you're judged on.

Now, the more you've got, it's true, as we said before, the more harshly you'll be judged or, or the more strictly you'll be judged.

But also, like, the better equipped you are to strive to the heights of sanctity.

So getting back to the last thing I said, you want more and more Christianity.

You don't want, like, what's the bare minimum?

But the people who only have some aspects of Revelation, they don't have all the books, they don't have a full understanding of the books, but they're saying yes as best they can to that.

God will have blessed that abundantly.

So I don't think we should be surprised at genuine miracles happening.

It's, it's not an endorsement of all aspects of their theology.

And the, the second thing is, this is actually, uh, a point that can be really helpful from an apologetical perspective.

Meaning, a friend of mine from college who converted from Assemblies of God, which is, you know, the Pentecostal family, to Catholicism, uh, w- was really wowed by the Eucharist.

But under the heading of miracles, of like, Okay, we've got these, like, miracles of healing, and you've got this even more incredible miracle that you're saying happens.

So it actually gives us a common language to be like, Okay, look, we both believe God is still active in the world.

Um, there's no reason in principle to think he couldn't turn bread and wine into his body and blood.

You know, they're not cessationists in that sense.

So, I think it actually gives us a, a common ground on which to bring the family together a little more.

Dr. Thomas, Father Dicken?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I'll just say, I, I agree totally with what Joe is saying there.

You know, i- it's, uh So your, your comment reminded me of re- my friend Barney, who is, uh, also from a Pentecostal background.

When he was first encountering the Catholic tradition, he just recognized h- how much easier the encounter was for him as a Pentecostal who believed in miracles and believed in God's active intervention every day than it was for a lot of other Protestants who are ce- you know, cessationists, who just think, Oh, this was just all in the Bible.

It all happened way back, way back when.

But that's a different world.

Um, you know, from his standpoint, he, I remember him telling me that, you know, it's almost as if the Pentecostal already kind of lives within the Catholic world, within the Catholic mindset.

And I think that there's, I think that there's a lot to, a lot to that.

T- the only thing I would add, um, is It's interesting actually if you turn this around, because I think from a Catholic standpoint, absolutely you recognize, you know, God is gracious.

He does miracles in all kinds of places according to whatever it is that, you know, we know of Him in.

How- however it is that we are able within our context to go and to re- reach out to Him.

Um, what's interesting is if you turn it on- uh, the question kind of on its head and think, Gosh, if you were Just as a Pentecostal, I can say here what, you know, this is a little autobiographical.

When I first started to learn about miracles within- within the Catholic Church, when I started to learn about specifically, um, when it came to the kinds of miracles that were related to canonization, so the kinds of medical miracles that you get, you know, with- with- with saints and with invocation of saints.

Um, there's a really good, uh, book, uh, that I read, uh, by Jacqueline Duffin called, uh, Medical Miracles.

And it's interesting 'cause she's, uh, you know, she- she's an agnostic, but she's a- she's a doctor.

She writes this incredible, incredible book on this, and studies all this and is basically like, Yeah, this is all, this is true.

This is all real and I don't know what to do with this as an agnostic.

But she just lays out all of the, you know, the evidence for these real medical miracles that have taken place.

Can I add the book is semi-autobiotic- autobiographical?

No.

Like, her interest is-

It's like-

she's one of the people-

Yeah

who helps confirm a miracle.

Yeah.

But she doesn't know that's what she- she thinks she's, like, doing something for like a- a court case for someone who's died.

And it turns out the person's very much alive, miraculously.

Yeah.

Absolutely, Joe.

It's- it's- it's a really great, fun- fun story.

She's somebody I'd- I'd love to have, uh, have coffee or a beer with some day.

I- I just remember, uh, as I was learning more all about this, I thought, you know, I have expl- I- I- I can, you know, I can- I can have explanations for- for miracles in Protestant churches, even, you know, even in Catholic churches I can understand, you know, miracles.

But this particular kind of miracle, with the intercession of, you know, the saints and seeing this, where it's almost in a sense It was, uh, appealing to my inner empiricist, my inner like, Hey, I want Give me the scientific method.

I want the actual evidence.

Well, here I had more evidence than I knew what to do with, the simile- same way that- that, uh, that Jacqueline Duffin had more evidence than what to do with.

And so I think it's actually a fun question to kind of turn- turn on its head and say, Yeah, I believe in that.

And you know what's- you know what's wild is, I believe in even weirder stuff than that, than like a normal miracle.

'Cause that's what it is.

These are even weirder, but they're in a sense, you know, ver- verifiable, which is again, uh, uh, is i- a pretty incredible, I think, expression of God's grace to us, that he allows us to- to- to see this demonstrated.

Father Deacon, did you have any final comments there?

Yes.

Uh, God works in lots of places we don't expect Him to work.

Um, the- the- the reality is God works through the church, He works through the sacraments, but He's not only bound to those things.

You know, God's grace can be all over the place, and I've seen God working, um, in places you wouldn't expect.

Mm.

Um, I have a number of friends who are Mormon, and I've gotten to know them and know their tradition, and- and I've seen God working in them as well.

Now granted, their theology is very different than ours.

We have a lot that's not in common, but on the ground level, your average Mormon has love for Jesus.

Uh, and God can work through that as well.

That being said, regarding the Pentecostal miracles, some of them very well may be miracles, uh, but I've also studied them as a religion professor.

I'm looking more objectively in that sense.

Um, a lot of the supermas- supernatural manifestations you find in the Pentecostal churches, especially among people like, say, Benny Hinn and whatnot, a lot of that can be attributed to, um, either being charlatans, but in many cases it's more of like a mass hypnosis or a kind of, um, situation where everyone enters a trance-like state and they're suggestible.

I've seen that happen as well, too.

So, I want people to be cautious about that, because often they think they can find the Holy Spirit working in these churches 'cause of all these amazing things happening, but very often the amazing things are either manufactured or they're caused by a- a trance or hip- hypnotic situation.

I mean, if I-

Yeah

could just throw out a concrete example from scripture, Cornelius, right?

In Acts chapter 10.

He's already got God working in his life as preparation for his entrance into the church.

It's not, is God endorsing like, Well, just stay a god-fearing Jew, or a jaw- god-fearing gentile.

Uh, it- it's something more.

Like we- we want to avoid the idea that syncretism is- is therefore the answer, just because God works wherever He wants to work.

It's rather, okay, given this, uh, what can we learn from it?

Which is- which is why I- I really like the example of invocation of the saints.

Like, when this miracle seems to confirm that saintly intercession works, that's a lot harder to explain away, if it's not actually of God.

Or- or to take another really concrete example, Catholic exorcisms.

If you're someone who believes that the church is of the Antichrist, now I know that's not all Protestants, but some turtles believe this.

Um, there's Excuse me, sorry.

Non- non-turtles.

Non-turtles.

Yeah.

I- I-

Next time.

You had one example.

I screwed up the one detail.

Yeah.

The one detail.

But, you know, there- there- uh, there's a whole range of views of the Catholic Church, but if you think it's not of God, and yet they're driving out the devil, well, we're told pretty darn explicitly in scripture, you can't Like, Satan doesn't drive out Satan.

So, the exorcisms, which have been held up to a surprising level of rigor and scrutiny, are very difficult to explain away, uh, on any ground other than they're the churches of God.

Dr. Thomas, I want to start with you.

If you could, uh, go ahead and put in a plug for anything that you're working on and want to direct our audience to.

We're wrapping it up here, so anything that you want to make them aware of, go ahead and, uh, put in that plug now.

Oh, man.

Uh, you know, uh-

Tell them about your book, too.

Yeah.

Well, my book, you can- you can go on previous episode, uh, if you want.

We did a really fun one, uh, so I was looking at justification in the early church, uh, which is- which is great- great fun.

So, the book is, uh, Paul's Works of the Law and the f- Perspective of Second Century Reception, which I can't even say, 'cause it's a- that's a paragraph.

It's not a book title.

But, um, that- that is what it is, and, uh, it's, I mean, I still love going through that.

It's got tons of stuff from the Church Fathers.

It, honestly, mostly is the- the Church Fathers.

There's very little of my own ideas there, which is why I like it because they're- they're a lot more interesting than I am.

Uh, besides that, you know most of my, uh, most of my work these days, uh, I teach at the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology in, uh, in Berkeley, uh, part of the GTU there.

It's a fantastic school.

I just absolutely love it .

and so if there's anybody who, um, you know, wants to study scripture, study philosophy, theology, any of these things, um, it's just a fantastic place to be.

I'm, I'm so, so grateful to be able to serve in that context.

Awesome.

Joe, go ahead and put in a plug for your work.

All right.

I've got, uh, another book on the early Church, called The Early Church: What Was the Catholic Church?

It's a little shorter of a title.

But, uh, and like I said, it, it covers Eucharist, baptism, the role of bishops, and how we know the four Gospels are, are the ones that we should be using.

Um, I do a lot of stuff over at Catholic Answers, catholic.com.

And one of these days, I keep saying it's gonna happen, I don't know when yet, uh, I'm gonna be starting a new podcast called Shameless Popery.

And then I also have, uh, the blog, Shameless Popery.

Awesome.

Father Deacon?

Uh, I'm still working on the Becoming Byzantine series.

For those who aren't familiar with it, it's a series, uh, where we're working our way through Christour Pascha, which is the Ukrainian Catholic catechism.

I'm doing that with Father Daniel Dozer and Robert Klusco from EWTN.

And we're gonna be having a webinar, a live webinar, this coming Sunday.

Uh, we typically have one a month but we missed the last month or so because we were all sick at various points.

Thankfully we're all healthy again, praise God, so we'll be doing that this coming Sunday.

Look us up on YouTube, Becoming Byzantine.

But also, I wanna ask everyone in the audience to please take a moment and say a prayer for the people of Ukraine.

Um, right now, it's a very, very difficult situation.

Personally, my heart is breaking, is breaking right now.

So please, please pray for Ukraine and for the people of Ukraine that they may know peace.

Could, could you lead us in a brief prayer for them, Father Deacon?

I'd, I'd be happy to.

In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Dear Heavenly Father, we ask you to send angels to guard the people of Ukraine.

We ask you to intervene in this terrible situation, to bring about peace and protection to those who are innocent, and those who serve you and love you will be spared.

And that peace and justice will reign, and that evil will be repelled.

We're asking for a miracle, dear Lord.

In the name of your son, Jesus Christ, amen.

In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, amen.

Amen.

Gentlemen, thank y'all so much for coming on.

This was a really, really excellent discussion.

I enjoyed all of it.

Everybody go and check out their books and their websites.

I also put access, or I'll put links to all those things here in the chat in a little bit.

So y'all look for that, uh, whenever this posts on YouTube, uh, here shortly.

And if you haven't already, go ahead and subscribe to this channel.

I would greatly appreciate it.

And you could also become a member of the channel.

Join and, uh, get access to extra perks.

Or you can join, uh, patreon.com/reasonandtheology.

Get extra perks there and support what we're doing.

All right, that's gonna do it everybody.

I once again thank y'all all for watching and, uh, that's gonna be it.

Till next time, God bless.

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