大家好，欢迎收听《特伦特慧语》播客。 Hey everyone, welcome to the Counsel of Trent podcast.
我是你们的主持人，天主教答疑的护教者和演讲者特伦特·霍恩。 I'm your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker, Trent Horn.
在今天的节目中，我想谈谈教父、公教会教义，以及我们在教父中能找到的一个普遍共识。 On today's episode, I want to talk about the Church Fathers, Catholic doctrine, and a universal point of agreement that we can find in the Church Fathers.
我之所以要提出这个话题，是因为我注意到一些新教护教者中存在一种不一致性。 The reason I want to bring this up is I've noticed kind of an inconsistency among some Protestant apologists.
他们会说，好吧，你们天主教徒相信马利亚无原罪怀孕，或者你们相信马利亚 肉身升天，或者你们相信这些其他只在教父后期才明确出现的某些教条和教义 ，要么是在尼西亚会议之后，要么甚至是在之前，但它们更多是隐含的。 So what they do is they'll say, okay, you Catholics believe in the immaculate conception of Mary, or you believe in Mary's bodily assumption, or you believe in these other certain dogmas and doctrines that only appear explicitly late in the Church Fathers, either after the Council of Nicaea or maybe even before, but they're more implicit.
教父们在如何阐述这些教义上可能存在分歧。 There might be disagreements amongst the fathers about how to articulate them.
有些人甚至似乎不认同这些教义。 Some may be even seeming to not affirm the doctrines.
因此，新教护教者会说，看，如果使徒们教导了马利亚肉身升天，例如 ，为什么我们在所有教父中都看不到这一点，在早期教父中也看不到？ And so Protestant apologists will say, look, if the apostles taught the bodily assumption of Mary, for example, why don't we see that in all the fathers and see it in the early fathers?
如果这是使徒的教导，我们会期望在教父中看到它 ，而不是在尼西亚会议之后的教会历史中才看到。 If it were an apostolic teaching, we would expect to see it more in the fathers than we do later in church history after the Council of Nicaea.
现在，我不想全面辩护马利亚肉身升天的教义。 Now, I don't want to get into a full defense of the bodily assumption of Mary.
如果你想了解更多，可以回顾我播客的前一集。 If you want to learn more about that, you can go back to a previous episode of my podcast.
我会尝试在下面的描述中找到链接。 I'll try to find a link to it in the description below.
我想我是在圣母升天节那天录制的，谈论了教父的证据、启示录第12章等内容。 I think I recorded it on the feast day of the assumption to talk about the patristic evidence, Revelation chapter 12, things like that.
这不是我今天节目要讨论的内容。 That's not my intent to get into here on today's show.
相反，我想指出一个不一致之处。 Rather, I want to point out an inconsistency.
这是新教护教者对天主教徒提出的一种「我赢你输」的命题。 It's kind of a heads, I win, tails, you lose proposition that Protestant apologists will share with Catholics.
他们会说，哦，如果教父教导了这个，对不起，如果使 徒教导了这个，为什么我们在所有教父中都看不到呢？ They'll say, oh, if if the fathers taught this, sorry, if the apostles taught it, why don't we see it in all the fathers?
他们的论点似乎是，如果使徒教导了教义X，那么我们就会在所有教父中找到它。 Their argument seems to be if the apostles taught Doctrine X, then we would find it in all the fathers.
既然我们没有统一和普遍地找到它，那么就可以推 断使徒一定没有教导过像马利亚升天这样的教义。 Since we don't find it uniformly and universally, it follows that the apostles must not have taught it like the assumption of Mary.
但我认为这不是一个很合理的论点，因为你可以找到在教父中普遍证实的教义。 But I just don't think this is a very legitimate argument that they make, because you can find doctrines that are universally attested in the fathers.
这就是我们今天要讨论的内容。 And that's what we're going to talk about today.
即使新教学者也承认在教父中普遍存在的一个教义，但他们却不接受它。 The one doctrine that even Protestant scholars will admit can be universally found among the church fathers, and yet they won't accept it.
这个教义就是，请击鼓，洗礼重生。 And that doctrine is, drumroll please, baptismal regeneration.
所以我会谈谈支持这一点的证据。 So I'll talk about the evidence for that.
但这是相信洗礼不仅仅是一种象征性的仪式。 But that is the belief that baptism is not a purely symbolic right.
洗礼不仅仅是向他人展示我们通过信心成为基督徒的方式。 Baptism is not merely a means to show other people that we have become Christians by faith.
相反，洗礼是我们成为基督徒的途径。 Rather, baptism is the means by which we become Christian.
洗礼使我们重生。 Baptism regenerates us.
它消除了原罪和个人罪的污点。 It takes away the stain of original sin, of personal sin.
它消除了所有与罪相关的惩罚，包括永恒的惩罚和暂时的惩罚。 It removes all of the punishments related to sin, both eternal punishment, temporal punishment.
正如特伦特公会议所说，任何接受洗礼圣事的人，没有什么能阻碍他们进入天国。 As the Council of Trent says, anyone who receives a sacrament of baptism, there is nothing that would hinder them from entering into heaven.
对于任何接受洗礼圣事的人来说。 For anyone who receives a sacrament of baptism.
其中包含了洗礼重生的观念，即通过洗礼的水。 And folded into that is the idea of baptismal regeneration, that it is the waters of baptism.
它们成为神恩典的渠道，使我们的灵魂得以更新，使我们在基督里成为新造的人。 They become the channel of God's grace for our souls to be renewed, for us to become a new creation in Christ.
我想说的是，正如保罗在哥林多后书第5章第17至18节所说。 As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, verses 17 through 18, I would say.
我们成为，我想是哥林多后书5章17节。18节是讲和好的职分。 We become, I think it's set for 2 Corinthians 5, 17. 18 is the ministry of reconciliation.
我们通过洗礼在基督里成为新造的人。 We become new creations in Christ through baptism.
这在圣经和教父中都有充分的证明。 Amply attested to in scripture, in the church fathers.
特别是，这是教父们普遍的教导。 And specifically, it's a universal teaching among the fathers.
所以对我来说很难理解，现在问题是这样的。 So it's hard for me that, now here's the thing.
有许多新教徒肯定洗礼重生。 There are many Protestants who affirm baptismal regeneration.
并非所有新教徒都否认每一个公教会教义。 It's not the case that every Catholic doctrine is denied by all Protestants.
这里有一个光谱。 There's a spectrum here.
有些新教徒比其他新教徒离天主教更远。 There are going to be some Protestants who are way further away from Catholicism than other Protestants.
所以高教会新教徒、英国圣公会、路德宗、一些 循道宗，他们会比低教会新教徒更接近天主教。 So high church Protestants, Anglicans, Lutherans, some Methodists, they're going to be closer to Catholicism than low church Protestants.
会有一些改革宗浸信会或再洗礼派，诸如此类。 There are going to be some Reformed Baptists or Anabaptists, things like that.
他们将成为再洗礼派。 They're going to be Anabaptists.
这在宗教改革历史中是一个更深层次的划分。 That's kind of a deep cut further along into Reformation history.
实际上，再洗礼派之所以被称为再洗礼派，是因为他们重新给人施洗。 The Anabaptists, actually, they were called Anabaptists because they re-baptized people.
他们否认洗礼重生，是最早这样做的新教宗派之一。 They denied baptismal regeneration, one of the first Protestant denominations to do that.
因此，他们属于所谓的激进改革派，因为路德相信洗礼重生。 And so they belonged to what was called the Radical Reformation because Luther believed in baptismal regeneration.
许多新教徒也是如此。 Many Protestants did.
而再洗礼派不相信这一点。 And so Anabaptists did not believe in it.
所以他们认为，如果你在婴儿时期受洗，你必须再次受 洗，再洗礼，就像希腊语的意思，你知道，再次施洗。 So they thought if you were baptized as an infant, you had to be re-baptized again, anabaptism, like Greek meaning, you know, baptize again.
所以有些人，比如路德宗，会热烈地捍卫洗礼重生。 So there are people, there are Lutherans, for example, would heartily defend baptismal regeneration.
所以我们与他们有这一共同点。 So we share that in common with them.
但我要说，一些最直言不讳的天主教批评者往往属于改革宗加尔文主义传统。 But I would say some of the most vocal critics of Catholicism tend to belong to the Reformed Calvinist tradition.
他们中的许多人，不是全部，但许多人赞同所谓的信徒洗礼，也就是信仰洗礼。 And many of them, not all of them, but many of them subscribe to what would be called Believer's Baptism, a.k.a. Credo Baptism.
所以婴儿洗礼的观念是你给孩子施洗，要么因为 这是一项规定，你这样做是因为耶稣这么说。 So pedobaptism is the idea you baptize children because either because it's an ordinance, you do it because Jesus said so.
它并不会产生任何效果，但耶稣说要给每个人施洗，所以你就这样做。 It doesn't do anything, but Jesus said to baptize everybody, so you do it.
其他婴儿洗礼支持者，「pedo」是希腊语中「儿童」的意思，像天主教徒、路德宗和其 他人、东正教、英国圣公会，他们会说，我们给孩子施洗是因为它在灵性上使他们重生。 Other pedobaptists, pedo the Greek word for child, who baptize children like Catholics, Lutherans and others, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, would say, well, we baptize children because it spiritually regenerates them.
它消除了原罪，并使他们进入基督的身体。 It's what takes away original sin and brings them into the body of Christ.
然后还有其他浸信会和新教徒。 And then there are other Baptists and Protestants.
我在福音派中看到的一个很普遍的观点是，不，洗礼是信仰洗礼。 Very common view that I see among evangelicals is no, baptism is credo baptism.
它是为了让信徒向其他人表明他们是基督徒。 It is for believers to show other people that they're Christian.
但对我来说困难的是，当许多这些人开始学习新教反对天主教的护教 论点时，可能会去查阅教父的著作，然后说，无原罪怀孕，升天。 But what's hard for me is that many of those people, when they start learning Protestant apologetic arguments against Catholicism, might go to the Fathers and say, Magular Conception, Assumption.
你会发现这些教父引用出现得很晚。 You find these patristic citations late.
如果使徒教导了这些，为什么我们在早期和普遍中找不到这些？ If the Apostles taught this, why don't we find this early and universal?
现在并不是说教父们教导了所有的事情。 And now it's not the case that the Fathers taught on everything.
并不是说教父们在他们所有的著作中都重复所有的教义。 It's not like the Fathers regurgitate all of doctrine in all of their writings.
但我想要聚焦的是这个论点的不一致性，我会对这些人说，好的，你们 说如果使徒教导了某些东西，那么我们会期望在教父中普遍找到它。 But what I want to zone in on in the inconsistency of this argument is that I would say to these people, OK, you're saying if the Apostles taught something, then we would expect to find it universally amongst the Church Fathers.
好吧，这里有一些在他们中间普遍存在的东西。 Well, here's something that is universally found among them.
所以就在那里，这似乎是他们普遍教导的东西。 So right there, that seems to be something that they universally teach.
洗礼重生是消除罪的洗礼。 Baptismal regeneration is baptism that takes away sins.
约翰福音3章5节在教父中普遍被认为是指水洗。 John 3, 5 is universally held in the Church Fathers to be referring to water baptism.
那里耶稣说，人若不是从水和圣灵生的，就不能进神的国。 That's where Jesus says, unless you're born of water and spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.
我会对他们说，好吧，看看所有教父们是怎么说这个的。 And I'll say to them, well, look at what all the Church Fathers, they say about this.
而我得到的回应是，嗯，我的神学并不基于教父。 And the response I get is, well, my theology isn't based on the Church Fathers.
它是基于新约的。 It's based on the New Testament.
好吧，但也许你误解了新约。 OK, but maybe you're misinterpreting the New Testament.
也许你误解了它关于洗礼的说法。 Maybe you're misinterpreting what it says about baptism.
教父们比你更接近它。 The Fathers were a lot closer to it than you were.
为什么我们不应该认为他们在这一点上保留了圣经的真实解释？ Why shouldn't we think that they've preserved the authentic interpretation of Scripture on this point?
顺便说一下，在关于洗礼重生的辩论中还出现了另一 个观点，这在天主教徒与新教徒交流时经常发生。 So another point that comes up, by the way, in the debate over baptismal regeneration, this happens a lot when Catholics engage Protestants.
但在新教徒中，这种情况在洗礼问题上也会发生。 But among Protestants, this happens too over baptism.
这是举证责任。 It's a burden of proof.
人们会说，就像天主教徒和新教徒在辩论天主教时那样 ，如果天主教徒不能证明天主教，新教就默认获胜。 People will say, like with Catholics and Protestants when they debate about Catholicism, if the Catholic can't prove Catholicism, Protestantism wins by default.
我不喜欢那样。 I don't like that.
这应该是一个公平的竞争环境。 It should be an even playing field.
我们从作为基督徒开始。 We start with being Christian.
然后你是选择新教的权威，唯独圣经，还是天主教的权威，圣经、圣传和训导权？ And then do you go to the Protestant authority, Sola Scriptura, or the Catholic authority, Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?
你不应该说，哦，你知道，我们就坚持那个。 You shouldn't be able to say, oh, you know, we we just stick with that.
或者是东正教，我想你可以这样说。 Or to Orthodoxy, which would basically, I guess you could put it this way.
你是基督徒。 You have being Christian.
好的，那么你可以是新教徒，唯独圣经。 OK, then you have you could be a Protestant, Sola Scriptura.
你可以是东正教，圣经和圣传。 You could be Eastern Orthodox, Scripture and Tradition.
或者你可以是天主教徒，圣经、圣传、训导权，与圣彼得的继承人教宗联合。 Or you could be Catholic, Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium, united to the successor of St. Peter to the Pope.
我们应该选择哪一个？ Which one should we pick?
它们都应该根据自身的优点来衡量，看看哪一个最能解释圣经和历史证据。 They should all be weighed on their own merit to see what makes the most sense of the biblical and the historical evidence.
洗礼也是如此。 So the same with baptism.
当我看到你们新教徒自己在辩论这个问题时，很多人会说，哦， 那节经文约翰福音3:5不是那个意思。它可能指的是羊水。 A lot of people when you when I even see you in Protestants debate this issue amongst themselves, people will say, oh, well, that verse doesn't John 3 5. It could mean amniotic water of the amniotic fluid.
当你看使徒行传2:38，悔改，受洗，叫你们的罪得赦。 When you go to Acts 2 38, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
哦，彼得可能只是在这里说，悔改，受洗，因为你已 经被赦免了，尽管这完全不符合这段经文的语法。 Oh, Peter could just be saying here, repent, be baptized because you have been forgiven, even though it's not the grammar of the passage at all.
顺便说一下，我在我的书《天主教辩护》中详细讨论了这个问题， 如果你想深入研究这个主题，那里有整整一章关于洗礼的内容。 I'd go I talk about that at length, by the way, my book Case for Catholicism, whole chapter on baptism there if you want to go in depth on this subject.
但他们把它当作如果相信洗礼重生的人不能从圣经中证明它，那么它就不存在。 But they treat it as if the person who believes in baptismal regeneration, if they can't prove it from Scripture, then it doesn't exist.
不，我会问那些相信洗礼仅仅是向他人表明自己是基督徒的象征的信仰洗礼者。 No, I would ask the credo Baptist, the ones who believe baptism is merely a symbol to show other people who are Christian.
新约在哪里说过这个？ Where does the New Testament say that?
哪里说洗礼是为了向人们表明我们是基督徒？ Where does it say baptism is for showing people we are Christians?
它没有这么说。 It doesn't say that.
事实上，我这里有一本很棒的书，G.R. Be asley Murray的《新约中的洗礼》。 In fact, I've got a great book here, Baptism in the New Testament by G.R. Beasley Murray.
他实际上是一位浸信会学者。 He's a Baptist scholar, actually.
但这是他对新约关于洗礼的说法。 But this is what he says about the New Testament, what it says about baptism.
从这整个关于洗礼的研究来看，非常引人注目。 Very striking from from this whole study on baptism.
他说，根据前面对新约中洗礼表述的阐述。 He says in the light of the foregoing exposition of the New Testament representations of baptism.
认为洗礼仅仅是一种象征性仪式的观点不仅不令人满意，而且与新约本身不和谐。 The idea that baptism is a purely symbolic right must be pronounced not alone unsatisfactory, but out of harmony with the New Testament itself.
诚然，这样的判断与作者所属教派的普遍传统相悖。 Admittedly, such a judgment runs counter to the popular tradition of the denomination to which the writer belongs.
他会说很多浸信会信徒在这一点上不同意我的观点。 He'd say a lot of the Baptists disagree with me on this point.
但他说，新约作者宣称存在于洗礼中的恩典的程度和性质，对于 任何以开放心态重新研究这个问题的人来说都是令人惊讶的。 But he says the extent and nature of the grace which the New Testament writers declare to be present in baptism is astonishing for any who come to the study freshly with an open mind.
我在读一本新教作者罗纳德·纳什的书，他对洗礼重生有一个非常有趣的见解和承认。 I was reading a book by a Protestant author, Ronald Nash, and he made this very interesting insight, admission about baptismal regeneration.
老实说，我认为很多新教徒相信洗礼只是向人们展示你得救了的一种方式。 I think, honestly, a lot of Protestants believe baptism is just a way of showing people you're saved.
这不是拯救你的东西，因为他们已经坚持这种观点。 It's not what saves you because they're already committed to the view.
我只凭信心得救。 I'm saved by faith alone.
所以如果我只凭信心得救，洗礼就不可能拯救我。 So if I'm saved by faith alone, baptism can't possibly save me.
尽管彼得前书3:21说洗礼现在拯救你们。 Even though first Peter 321 says baptism now saves you.
罗纳德·纳什就是其中之一。 Ronald Nash is one of them.
这是他说的。 This is what he says.
得救只有一个必要条件，那就是对耶稣基督的信心。 There is only one necessary condition for salvation, and that is faith in Jesus Christ.
我们可以自信地接近所谓的问题经文，确信它们不可能教导洗礼重生。 We can approach the so-called problem text with confidence that they cannot possibly teach baptismal regeneration.
所以看看这里发生了什么。 So look what's happening here.
这是我四年前在我们关于救恩的辩论中指责詹姆斯·怀特所做的事。 This is something I accused James White of doing in our debate we had about salvation four years ago.
你带着你的神学去接近经文，并说，这些经文不可能有其他 意思，因为我的神学在驱动它，而不是让经文自己说话。 That you're taking your theology and approaching the text and saying, These texts cannot mean anything else because my theology is driving it, instead of letting the text speak for themselves.
所以，但再次强调，今天不会讲太多关于圣经的内容。 So, but once again, not going to be a lot about scripture today.
我想谈谈教父们。 I want to talk about the fathers.
我只想说，当你去阅读教父们的摘录时，去看看吉米·艾金的书《教父最懂》。 I'm just going to say that when you go and read the excerpts of the fathers, get Jimmy Akin's book, Fathers Know Best.
但即使人们说，哦，那是天主教收集的教父著作。 But even people say, oh, that's a Catholic collection of the fathers.
它是有偏见的。 It's biased.
读读J. N. D. 凯利的《早期基督教教义》。 Read J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines.
他是英国圣公会的。 He's an Anglican.
他说，从一开始，洗礼就是普遍接受的加入教会的权利。 And he says, From the beginning, baptism was the universally accepted right of admission to the church.
就其意义而言，它一直被认为传达罪的赦免。 As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins.
哦，好吧，凯利是英国圣公会的。 Oh, well, Kelly's an Anglican.
你知道，英国圣公会是高教会。 Anglicans, you know, they're high church.
这是有偏见的。 It's biased.
好吧。 Fine.
威廉·韦伯斯特怎么样？ How about William Webster?
我相信韦伯斯特是加尔文主义者，或者至少是改革宗的。 Webster is I believe he's a Calvinist or at least he's reformed.
新教护教者并没有。 Protestant apologist did not.
我不相信，我不认为他相信洗礼重生。 I don't believe I don't think he believes in baptismal regeneration.
但他肯定离公教会很远。 But he certainly is very far away from the Catholic Church.
他是一位新教护教者。 He's a Protestant apologist.
他写了一本名为《历史审判下的罗马教会》的书。 And he wrote a book called The Church of Rome at the Bar of History.
韦伯斯特的目标是试图表明教父们并不真正支持天主教教义。 And it's Webster's goal here to try to show that the church fathers don't really support Catholic doctrine.
他们并不真正相信今天教会所教导的，或者至少他们与之相去甚远。 They didn't really believe what the church teaches today, or at least they're very far removed from it.
这可能是另一个完整反驳的主题，诸如此类。 That could be a subject for a whole other rebuttal and things like that.
我再次讨论它们。 I address them once again.
我在我的另一本书《天主教辩护》中经常讨论这本书。 I address this book quite often in my other book, The Case for Catholicism.
但韦伯斯特在这本书中实际上是这么说的。 But what Webster says in this book, he actually says this.
他说，洗礼的教义是罗马天主教中少数几个可以说得到教父普遍同意的教导之一。 He says, The doctrine of baptism is one of the few teachings within Roman Catholicism for which it can be said that there is a universal consent of the fathers.
所以即使韦伯斯特不相信这一点，试图说教会，早期教父不是天主教的，在这里也承认。 So even Webster doesn't believe in this, tries to say the church, the early fathers are not Catholic, admits in here.
不，你可以说，这是天主教中少数几个可以说得到教父普遍同意的教导之一。 No, that's one you could say, one of the few teachings within Catholicism for which there can be said to be universal consent of the fathers.
我要说的是，好吧，如果使徒们没有教导这个，教会怎么会把这个搞得如此糟 糕，以至于这个异端在教父们中间，在那些最接近使徒的人中间普遍传播？ And what I would say is, well, if the apostles didn't teach this, how did the church so badly muck this up so that this heresy universally spread amongst the fathers, amongst those who are closest to the apostles?
相反，我会说它没有。它没有，因为使徒们没有教导信徒洗礼。 Rather, I would say it didn't. It didn't because the apostles didn't teach believers baptism.
他们当然教导，如果你因信而成为信徒，你就因恩典而得救进入圣事。 They taught certainly that if you are a believer by faith, you are saved by grace to the sacrament.
你必须自由地接近它。 You have to freely approach it.
但洗礼就是洗礼之水，是神的恩典更新我们灵魂 、消除原罪并使我们成为神的养子养女的渠道。 But that it is baptism is the waters of baptism that are the channel through which God's grace renews our souls, takes away original sin and makes us adopted sons and daughters of God.
所以，尽管如此，我想以我最近看到的一些有趣的反对意见来结束这个论点。 So, though, I do want to close with some interesting recent objections I have seen to this thesis.
加文·奥特兰德是一位浸信会信徒。 Gavin Ortland is a Baptist.
我想他以前是长老会信徒。 I think he's a former Presbyterian.
他是一位浸信会护教者，最近他做了一个关于教父们对洗礼重生的普遍观点的视频。 He's a Baptist apologist, and he did a video recently on the church fathers about the universal view that baptism regeneration.
他指出了一些论点，他认为这些论点反驳了教父们普遍相信洗礼重生的观点。 He pointed out some arguments that a few arguments that he thought counted against the view that the fathers universally believed in baptism regeneration.
我将看看其中的一些，然后我会给你我的想法。 I'm going to look at a few of those, and then I will offer you my thoughts.
第一点是，早期所有关于仪式样貌的描述，从《十二使徒遗训》到各处，有很多这样 的描述，而且很多都很详细，都假定了一个包括教理讲授或教导的门徒训练过程。 Number one is that all of the descriptions early on of what the rite looked like, from the didache on everywhere, and there's so many of them, and so many of them are detailed, are assuming a discipleship process that involves catechesis or teaching.
它涉及禁食。 It involves fasting.
正如我所说，它涉及弃绝撒但和许多其他事情。 It involves, as I say, the renunciation of Satan and so many other things.
确实，与洗礼相关的仪式谈到了信心。 It's true that the rites connected to baptism talk about faith.
它们谈到弃绝撒但和他的邪恶行为。 They talk about renouncing Satan and his evil works.
但这对今天的婴儿洗礼也是如此。 But that's true for infant baptisms today.
为了使洗礼圣事有效，接受洗礼的人必须与信心相连。 In order for the sacrament of baptism to be valid, the person receiving it, there must be faith connected to that person.
如果是成年人，他们必须有信心并寻求这个圣事。 Either if the person is an adult, that they have faith and they seek the sacrament.
你不能违背他们的意愿给他们施洗。 You can't baptize someone against their will.
这是无效的。 It's not valid.
他们必须自由选择，因为他们已经被赐予了信心的恩赐，他们自由地想要渴望它。 They have to freely choose it because they've been given the gift of faith that they freely want to desire it.
对于婴儿来说，当然，婴儿不能自由地渴望洗礼。 Now for an infant, of course, an infant can't freely desire baptism.
他没有认知意识，但父母可以渴望它。 He has no cognitive awareness of it, but the parents can desire it.
他们是被赐予信心的人，他们带孩子来接受洗礼。 They are the ones gifted with faith who bring the child for baptism.
所以父母代表孩子弃绝撒但，代表他们的信心接受洗礼。 So the parents renounce Satan on the child's behalf, receive baptism on behalf of their faith.
这就是为什么教会不会给那些没有意愿将孩子抚养成天主教徒的父母的孩子施洗。 That's why the church will not baptize children of parents who have no desire to raise a child to be Catholic.
所以如果牧师看到父母只是为了讨好奶奶而给孩子施洗，而他们完 全没有意图将孩子抚养成天主教徒，那么他们就不能给孩子施洗。 So if a pastor sees that the parents are only doing the baptism to please grandma, and they have no intention whatsoever raising the child to be Catholic, then they cannot give the child baptism.
至少要有一些有根据的希望，孩子会被抚养成天主教徒。 There has to be at least some, a well-founded hope the child will be raised to be Catholic.
所以信心是相连的。 So faith is connected.
在早期教会的洗礼仪式中，就像今天一样，我们谈论信心，弃绝撒但。 In the rites of baptism in the early church as in today, we talk about faith, renouncing Satan.
但这对今天的婴儿洗礼也是如此。 But this is true for infant baptisms today.
这对过去的婴儿洗礼也是如此。 It's true of infant baptisms in the past.
在这两种情况下，你仍然有洗礼重生。 And in both cases, you still have baptismal regeneration.
第二，当然，我们有特土良。 Second, of course, we've got Tertullian.
大约在公元200年，特土良写了现存最早的关于洗礼的论文。 Right around the year 200, Tertullian, he wrote the first surviving treatise on baptism.
特土良非常尊重传统，如果他要反对使徒传统，他不会不说些什么。 Tertullian respects tradition way too much to not say something if he's going against the apostolic tradition.
如果婴儿洗礼已经存在了100年，如果这来自使徒，如果 这是普遍的做法，他就不会像他那样轻率和简短地反对它。 If infant baptism had been around for 100 years, if this is coming from the apostles, if this is the universal practice, he would not have argued as glibly and briefly as he did against it.
我无法理解这一点。 I cannot fathom that.
让我为奥特兰德所说的话添加一些历史背景。 Let me add some historical context to what Ortlin is saying.
所以在特土良写作的3世纪初，教父希波吕托斯这样说，他们应该先给小孩子施洗。 So in the early 3rd century when Tertullian was writing, the church father Hippolytus says this, And they shall baptize the little children first.
如果他们能自己回答，就让他们回答。 And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer.
但如果他们不能，就让他们的父母或家人回答。 But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.
所以这是信心，要么在能回答的人身上，要么在代表他们的人身上，比如亲属。 So it's faith, either in the person who can answer or in someone on their behalf, a relative.
教会作家俄利根说，这些都是与特土良同时期的见证。 The ecclesial writer Origen says this, These are both witnesses at the same time as Tertullian.
所以特土良，他反对婴儿洗礼，但他说，是的，当然婴儿可以有效地受洗。 So Tertullian, he objected to infant baptism, but he said, yeah, of course infants can be validly baptized.
他只是认为最好等待。 He just thought it was preferable to wait.
他的想法和特土良一样，认为未婚的人应该等到结婚后再受洗，因为当他 们未婚时，他们可能会互相胡闹，在受洗后犯淫乱罪，失去那些恩典。 And he thought just the same thing that Tertullian thought that unmarried people should wait to get baptized until after they're married, because when they're unmarried, they might mess around with each other, fornicate after they've been baptized and lose those graces.
等到你结婚后，把恩典留到生命的后期。 Wait until you're married and just save the graces till later in life.
19世纪的新教学者菲利普·沙夫也同意这一点。 And the 19th century Protestant scholar Philip Schaff agrees with this.
他说，在教父中，特土良本人不被接受，因为他只反对其权宜之计。 He says, Among the fathers, Tertullian himself not accepted, for he combats only its expediency.
没有一个声音反对婴儿洗礼的合法性和使徒起源。 There is not a single voice against the lawfulness and the apostolic origin of infant baptism.
我们在三世纪和四世纪初的墓碑上有所有这些关于死去的儿童和婴儿的铭文。 We've got all these inscriptions on tombs in the third century and early fourth century of children and babies who died.
我们被告知他们的洗礼日期。 And we're told about their baptism date.
我多次被这些数量之多震惊。 And so many times I was shocked at how many of these there are.
可能是一个八岁的男孩或类似的情况。 It'll be like an eight-year-old boy or something like that.
他死了，因为当然，在古代世界死亡率很高。 And he died because, of course, mortality rates are very high in the ancient world.
可能是他4月27日去世，4月25日受洗。 And it'll be like he died on April 27th and he was baptized on April 25th.
或者可能是一个两岁的孩子，他周六去世，周五晚上受洗，或类似的情况。 Or it'll be like a two-year-old and he dies on Saturday and he's baptized on Friday night or something like that.
你一遍又一遍地看到这种情况。 Over and over and over you have this.
看起来好像他们没有给婴儿施洗。 And it looks like, oh, it doesn't look like they're baptizing infants.
现在，再次强调，一两个这样的例子，你可以找到解释的方法，但其数量是有启发性的。 Now, again, one or two of these, you can find a way to explain that, but it's suggestive in its quantity.
我会把这作为我要看的最后一个论点。 I'll make this the last argument I'll look at.
也许我以后会做一个更深入的关于洗礼和奥特兰德博士的反对意见的视频。 Maybe I'll do a more in-depth video on baptism and Dr. Ortlin's objections later.
我想乔丹·库珀，他是一位路德宗学者。 I think Jordan Cooper, his name is a Lutheran scholar.
不久前他与吉米·艾金就称义问题进行了对话。 He had a dialogue with Jimmy Akin not too long ago on justification.
他批评奥特兰德博士。 He critiques Dr. Ortlin.
我想他的一些论点可能和我的很相似，因为他是路德宗。 And I think some of his arguments were probably pretty similar to mine because he's a Lutheran.
所以他在这一点上与奥特兰德博士意见不同。 So he disagrees with Dr. Ortlin on this.
你也可以随时查看他的想法。 You can always check out his thoughts as well.
但我要说，这实际上，人们受洗的想法，这些孩 子在死前两周受洗，这支持洗礼重生的观点。 But I would say that this actually, the idea of people being baptized, these children being baptized two weeks before they die, that supports baptismal regeneration.
原因是，这在之前关于特土良的讨论中有所暗示，人们认为，好吧，看，如果 洗礼能消除所有罪和与罪相关的所有惩罚，那就把洗礼留到生命的最后时刻。 The reason is, and this is alluded to in the previous thing about Tertullian, is that people thought, well, look, if baptism takes away all sin and all punishment related to sin, just save baptism until the very end of your life.
或者保留洗礼，如果你要死了，就受洗，砰，你就直接上天堂。 Or save baptism like if you're going to die, get baptized, bam, you're going to go straight to heaven.
但是，当然，这不是一个好政策，因为，第一，你不知道你什么时候会死。 But, of course, that's not a great policy because, one, you don't know when you'll die.
如果你突然死亡而还没有受洗怎么办？ What if you die suddenly and you haven't been baptized?
那不好。 That's not good.
而且，你会错过圣事的恩典。 Also, you miss out on the graces of the sacrament.
洗礼生活中所有帮助你成圣避免犯罪的恩典。 All of the graces in the baptismal life that help you to be holy to avoid sin.
洗礼是圣事的大门。 And baptism is the door to the sacraments.
没有它，你就不能被按立。 Without it, you can't be ordained.
你就不会有圣事婚姻。 You wouldn't have a sacramental marriage.
你不能接受坚振。 You can't be confirmed.
你不能领受圣体。 You can't receive the Eucharist.
所以你说，嗯，也许那不明智，尽管有些人认为他们找到了漏洞。 So you say, well, maybe that's not wise, even though some people think they found a loophole.
他们对君士坦丁大帝就是这样做的，延迟他的洗礼。 They did this with Emperor Constantine to delay his baptism.
所以如果你看到这些人在临终时而不是在婴儿时期受洗的结果，那显示 了一种扭曲的洗礼重生观，而不是信徒洗礼，也不是人们一到有理性的 年龄就受洗，能说耶稣是他们个人的主和救主或诸如此类的想法。 So if you see these results of people being baptized for their deathbed, instead of in infancy, that shows a distorted view of baptismal regeneration, not believer's baptism, not the idea that people got baptized as soon as they hit the age of reason when they could say Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior or what have you.
嘿，我希望这对你们所有人都有帮助。 Hey, I hope this is helpful for you all.
我想我喜欢研究教父。 I think I love studying the Church Fathers.
如果我可以推荐一本让你了解教父的书，罗德· 贝内特的《四个见证人》是一本非常好的书。 If I could recommend a book to get you into the Fathers, The Four Witnesses by Rod Bennett is a super good book.
一本收集教父们对各种问题的教导的优秀选集是我的朋友吉米·艾金的《教父最懂》。 A great anthology that collects the teachings of the Fathers on various issues is The Fathers Know Best by my friend Jimmy Akin.
我绝对会推荐那本书。 Definitely would recommend that.
在我的书《天主教辩护》中，我大量讨论了教父们及其与天主教教义的联系。 And I talk a lot about the Fathers and their connection to Catholic doctrine in my book, The Case for Catholicism.
所以，嘿，非常感谢你们，我希望你们有一个非常蒙福的一天。 So, hey, thank you guys so much, and I hope you have a very blessed day.
嘿，感谢你观看这个视频。 Hey, thanks for watching this video.
如果你想帮助我们制作更多像这样的优质内容，请务必点击订阅 并访问www.trenthornpodcast.com If you want to help us produce more great content like this, be sure to click subscribe and go to www.trenthornpodcast.com
成为高级订阅者。 to become a premium subscriber.
你将帮助我们创作更多像这样的视频，并获得额外内容和我们即将推出的项目的预览。 You'll help us create more videos like this and get access to bonus content and sneak peeks of our upcoming projects.