大家好，我是Roger。 Hey folks, Roger here.
天哪，我已经有一段时间没有制作视频了，我欠你们一些更新。 Man, it's been a while since I've made a video, and I owe some of you an update.
关于我有一些传言，我在这里要证实：我正在成为天主教徒。 There are some rumors about me that I'm here to confirm: I am becoming Catholic.
这对很多人来说会是一个震惊，我想要谨慎和敏感。 This is going to come as a shock to many people, and I want to be delicate and sensitive.
我既期待又害怕制作这个视频。 I have both looked forward to and dreaded making this video.
你们中的很多人都面对面地认识我，你可能是无神 论者，可能是浸信会教徒，也可能是长老会教徒。 So many of you know me face-to-face in person, and you might be an atheist, you might be a Baptist, you might be a Presbyterian.
我感谢你们所有人，你们来自各个地方观看我的视频，这真的很酷。 I am thankful for all of you who are watching my videos from really everywhere, which is kind of cool.
你可能是穆斯林，可能是基要主义浸信会教徒——不同的信仰体系、人生阶段和世界各地。 You might be a Muslim, you might be a fundamentalist Baptist—various belief systems, stages of life, and places around the world.
感谢你们花时间观看这些视频。 Thank you for taking the time to watch the videos.
我知道：我们都有不同的起点，所以当我讨论天主教时，我不可能回答每一个反对意见。 Here's what I know: we all have different starting places, and so when I discuss Catholicism, I'm not going to be able to answer every objection.
我不可能涵盖所有内容；那需要一个10小时的视频。 I'm not going to be able to cover everything; it would take a 10-hour video.
所以我可能会就某些主题制作更深入的视频，但我只是觉 得，对于那些我面对面认识的人，我欠你们一个更新。 So it's possible I'll make additional videos in more depth about certain topics, but I just feel that those of you I know face-to-face, I owe an update.
我为什么要成为天主教徒？ Why am I becoming Catholic?
我知道对我的无神论朋友和许多新教朋友，特别是我的浸信会朋友来说，这听起来很疯狂。 I know for my atheist friends and so many of my Protestant friends, especially my Baptist friends, this sounds insane.
听起来我像是在加入一个邪教，像是加入摩门教会，我现在迷信了，我在信仰上妥协了。 It sounds like I am joining a cult, like I am joining the Mormon Church, that I am now superstitious, that I've compromised the faith.
我的脑袋也想过这些。 My head has been there.
我曾经非常彻底地进入过基要主义浸信会的思维模式。 I have been able to put my mind pretty thoroughly into a fundamentalist Baptist mindset.
我也曾经非常彻底地进入过无神论的思维模式。 I've put my mind pretty thoroughly into an atheist mindset.
我理解那些思维方式。 I understand those ways of thinking.
我不能回答你们所有的反对意见，但我想给你们这个更新。 I can't answer all of your objections, but I wanted to give you the update.
那么我为什么要成为天主教徒？ So why am I becoming Catholic?
嗯，我看了《摔角王》和《修女也疯狂》，我想，伙计，我得加入那个。 Well, I watched Nacho Libre and Sister Act, and I thought, Man, I got to get in on that.
我只是开个玩笑，但那些电影确实不错！ I'm just kidding, but good movies!
我将给你四类理由，说明我为什么认为天主教，公教会基督徒的信仰，是真实的。 I'm going to give you four categories of reasons why I think Catholicism, Catholic Christianity, is true.
所以，正如你们许多人所知，我只是一个在美国南方深处长大的 家伙，从小听说神和圣经，但并没有真正过虔诚的基督徒生活。 So, as many of you know, I was just a guy in the Deep South who grew up hearing about God and the Bible, not really living a devout Christian life.
当我成为一个青少年时，我不想让任何人看起来不好或抱怨，但我意识到，当 我周围的人没有过虔诚的基督徒生活时，我需要过一个虔诚的基督徒生活。 When I became a teenager, I don't want to make anyone look bad or complain, but I realized that when others around me weren't living a devout Christian life, I needed to live a devout Christian life.
我知道我需要神，所以我全身心投入到我们去的那个独立的基要主义浸信会教会。 I knew I needed God, so I got all in with the independent fundamentalist-type Baptist church that we went to.
我想在一开始就说这一点，我是真诚和真心实意地说：我将永远感谢那些 浸信会的人，当我生命中需要神时，他们鼓励我过圣洁的生活，寻求神。 I want to say this at the outset, and I mean this sincerely and genuinely: I will forever be grateful for the Baptist people who, when I needed God in my life, encouraged me to live a holy life and to seek God.
那些密西西比州的浸信会教徒，佐治亚州的浸信会教徒，高唱着 圣哉，圣哉，圣哉，全能的主神，他们身上有一些特别的东西。 There's something about those Mississippi Baptists, the Georgia Baptists, singing out Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty.
那些自愿在周日早晨去教堂的人，他们可能爱神，按照他们 的理解传讲圣经——那里面有价值，我将永远感谢那些人。 People who volunteer to go to church on Sunday morning, who might love God and preach the Scriptures as they understand them—there's value there, and I'll be forever grateful for those people.
现在，虽然我不想侮辱任何人，但我能诚实地说，那些教会里的一切都是完全正确的吗？ Now, while I don't want to insult anyone, can I say honestly that everything in some of those churches was spot on?
不能。一些基督教伪知识分子确实有一些相当糟糕的想法。 No. Some Christian pseudo-intellectuals really have some pretty bad ideas.
所以当我去了这个教会并全身心投入时，我献身于事工。 So when I went to this church and got all in, I was devoting myself to ministry.
我去了神学院，一个浸信会神学院，学习圣经，学习可能追溯到19世纪的教会历史。 I went to seminary, to a Baptist seminary, studied Scripture, studied church history back to maybe the 1800s.
我全身心投入，我以为我对信仰的任何疑问都会在这些神学院得到解答，对吧？ I was all in, and I thought that whatever questions I had about the faith would sort of be answered in these seminaries, right?
当我深入学习时，这些人已经弄明白了。 That when I studied deeper, these guys had it figured out.
当我只是去听，去神学院，听课，上课，听其余的，伙计，我就会有完整的基础。 When I just went and heard it, went to seminary, and heard the classes, took the classes, heard the rest, man, I'd have the full foundation.
我会有完整的根基。 I'd have the full grounding.
我会确切地知道我们为什么相信我们所相信的一切。 I would know exactly why we believe everything that we believe.
我以前与你们分享过这些事情。 I've shared these things with you before.
不幸的是，尽管浸信会和一些基督教公众人物有很多好的方面，但那真的就是全部了。 Unfortunately, for all the good things about Baptists and about some of these Christian public figures, that was really all there was.
没有更多的东西了。 There wasn't anything more.
所以我以前告诉过你，我对信仰有疑问，到了事工中，我在服事神的地步。 So I've told you before I had questions about the faith, and it came to the point where, in ministry, I was serving God.
我爱，并且至今仍然爱我工作的那位牧师。 I loved, and to this day love, the pastor for whom I worked.
那个教会的人爱我的妻子和我，我的家人。 The people at that church loved my wife and me, my family.
我们是和平离开的，但我知道我对基要主义浸信会倾向的某些事情有一些疑问。 And we left on good terms, but I knew I had certain questions about some of the things that fundamentalist Baptists lean towards.
我想，我想传讲福音。 I thought, I want to preach the Gospel.
我想帮助人。 I want to help people.
我对信仰有疑问，但实际上，这些善意的浸信会人所相信的一些事情，我很纠结。 I have questions about the faith, but really, some of these things that these really well-intentioned Baptist people believe, I struggle with.
我给你举个例子：一些聪明人被称为钦定本唯一论者。 I'll give you an example: some intelligent people are what's called King James Onlyists.
他们认为只有钦定本圣经的英文翻译才是神在英语中保存的话语。 They think that only the King James translation of the Scriptures is God's preserved word in English.
我曾经有一段时间也相信这个，然后我越研究越深入，虽然这让 我感到不舒服，但我意识到那是一个站不住脚的立场，对吧？ I kind of bought into that for a while, and then the more I studied it and looked into it, though it was uncomfortable for me, I realized that that was an untenable position, right?
我不能真的坚持或宣扬钦定本圣经或其翻译是唯一有效的英文翻译。 That I can't really maintain or preach that the King James Version or translation of the Bible is the only valid English translation.
对我来说坚持那个观点会更容易，但我得出的结论是，证据根本不支持那一点。 It would have been easier for me to hold to that, but I came to the conclusion that the evidence just didn't bear that out.
这不是一个站得住脚的立场。 It's not a tenable position.
这并不意味着那些钦定本唯一论者没有对圣经的其他翻译提出有效的观点。 That doesn't mean that those King James Onlyists didn't make valid points about other translations of the Scriptures.
有一些糟糕的翻译；有一些翻译没有把某些东西翻译得很好。 There are some bad translations; there are some translations that don't translate certain things as well.
这都是真的。 That's all true.
但就立场本身而言，钦定本唯一论，嗯，我不能传讲这个。 But as far as the position itself, King James Onlyism, well, I can't preach this.
年轻地球创造论——非常聪明的人是年轻地球创造论者，我理解为什么。 Young earth creationism—very intelligent people are young Earth creationists, and I understand why.
对我来说，这不是信仰的关键问题；它只是不是一个关键的事情。 For me, that's not a key issue of faith; it's just not a key thing.
我倾向于认为，证据压倒性地表明地球的年龄远远超过6000年。 I tend to think that the evidence is overwhelming that the Earth is much older than 6,000 years.
但无论地球是6000年还是永恒的，我都会是一个基督徒。 But I would be a Christian either way, whether the Earth is 6,000 years or eternal.
我会是一个基督徒。 I'd be a Christian.
但这些视野上的差异，如果你愿意这么说的话，让我看到，伙计 ，我不能真的凭着良心留在一个基要主义浸信会的思维模式中。 But these differences of vision, if you will, led me to see, Man, I can't really stay in good conscience in a fundamentalist Baptist mindset.
所以我以朋友的身份离开了。 So I departed as friends.
我本来打算作为一名浸信会教徒去当军队牧师。 I was going to go become a military chaplain as a Baptist.
我应征加入了美国海军陆战队。 I enlisted in the United States Marine Corps.
已经过去几年了，但在海军陆战队里，一些事情改变了，我 对基督教世界观、对信仰本身的任何怀疑，真的追上了我。 It's been a few years, but in the Marine Corps, some things changed, and really whatever doubts I'd had about the Christian worldview, about the faith itself, caught up to me.
我认为这是有原因的。 I think there are reasons for that.
有些是我自己的愚蠢；有些是一些基督徒给我的一些坏主意。 Some of it's my own foolishness; some of it is some of the bad ideas that some Christians had handed me.
有些可能是因为在海军陆战队，在外面进行战斗训练时，你无法真正参与基督教社区。 Some of it is probably because in the Marine Corps, out in the field training for combat, you're not really able to take part in a Christian community.
愤怒、苦毒、绝望、困惑——我开始怀疑，我为什么要相信这些？ Anger, bitterness, despair, confusion—I just started to wonder, Why do I believe any of this?
就像很多人已经在做的那样，我怎么知道神存在？ Like so many people already do, how do I know God exists?
我怎么知道耶稣基督存在过？ How do I know Jesus Christ existed?
我怎么知道他从死里复活？ How do I know He rose from the dead?
嗯，我在浸信会圈子里认识的很多基督徒都是从圣经开始的。 Well, so many of the Christians I've known in Baptist circles begin with the Bible.
他们认为圣经是神的道，因为它是神的道，它说耶稣存在过，所以案件结束。 They think the Bible is God's word, and because it's God's word, it says Jesus existed, so case closed.
那么，我怎么知道圣经是真的？ Well, how do I know the Bible's true?
对我的一些浸信会朋友来说，这是公开的循环论 证：我们知道圣经是真的，因为它是神的道。 For some of my Baptist friends, this was openly circular reasoning: We know the Bible's true because it's God's word.
那么，你怎么知道圣经是神的道？ Well, how do you know the Bible's God's word?
因为它是这么说的，而且它说的任何事情都是真的。 Because it says so, and whatever it says is true.
我开始思考，圣经所说的与外部世界有任何一致性吗？ Well, I started thinking, is there any coherence with the external world and what the Bible says?
它与证据或我们可以从人类理性中知道的东西一致吗？ Does it cohere with evidence or what we can know from human reason?
我退后一步，我从未成为无神论者，但我考虑过。 I stepped back, and I never became an atheist, but I considered it.
我读了克里斯托弗·希钦斯、理查德·道金斯和所有新无神论者的大作。 I read Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and all the big new atheists.
我读了尼采；我读了让-保罗·萨特。 I read Nietzsche; I read Jean-Paul Sartre.
我读了不少无神论者，当代无神论者的作品，正 如我以前告诉过你的，我的信仰几乎被摧毁了。 I read quite a few atheists, contemporary atheists, and as I've told you before, my faith was almost leveled.
我几乎就要放弃整个事情了。 I just almost gave up on the whole thing.
我告诉我的妻子；我们进行了艰难的对话。 I was telling my wife; we had difficult conversations.
我想，我可能要退出了。 I'm like, I might be out.
我不知道。 I don't know.
感谢上帝，我有一个叫尼克·彼得斯的朋友接受过基督教护教学的训练。 Thanks be to God, a friend of mine named Nick Peters was trained in Christian apologetics.
所以我联系了他，他说，罗杰，你没有很好地理解事情。 So I reached out to him, and he said, Roger, you're not understanding things well.
你对基督教的问题是因为你更倾向于基要主义。 The problems you have with Christianity are because of your more fundamentalist leanings.
我说，好吧，那就帮帮我，大人物先生。 I'm like, Okay, well help me out, Mr. Big Shot.
我给他发了一些难题——我认为是难题——尼克做了一件明智的事。 I sent him tough questions—what I thought were tough questions—and Nick did something wise.
他没有给我简单的、糖衣炮弹式的答案来回答难题。 He didn't give me simple, candy-coated answers to difficult questions.
他说，罗杰，如果你真的想知道，去读这本书。 He said, Roger, if you really want to know, go read this book.
这是一本晦涩的哲学著作。 This is a dense philosophical text.
如果你想知道，就仔细研读它。 If you want to know, hash through it.
不要和无知的基督徒争论；要和一个受过良好教育、思想深刻的基督徒争论。 Don't argue with an ignorant Christian; argue with a Christian that's very well educated and thought through.
看看圣经能提供什么；看看基督教哲学能提供什么。 See what the Scriptures have to offer; see what Christian philosophy has to offer.
不要像无神论者经常做的那样，给基督教树稻草人。 And don't strawman Christianity like the atheists so often do.
让它看起来很愚蠢，或者挑选你能找到的最愚蠢的基督徒并攻击他。 Make it look silly or pick on the silliest Christian you can find and attack that.
那是一个容易的目标。 That's an easy target.
拿基督教所能提供的最好的东西，理解它，然后去追求它，看看你能做什么。 Take the best Christianity has to offer, understand it, and then go for that and see what you can do.
嗯，你看，我了解到几乎每一个研究这个问题的历史学家，无论他 们是基督徒还是无神论者，当然，都认为耶稣在历史上存在过。 Well, lo and behold, I've learned that virtually every historian who studies the matter, whether they're Christian or atheist, of course, thinks Jesus existed in history.
有足够的证据。 There's sufficient evidence.
有异教作家谈到拿撒勒的耶稣；有新约以外的基督教作家谈到拿撒勒的耶稣。 There are pagan writers who talk about Jesus of Nazareth; there are Christian writers outside the New Testament who talk about Jesus of Nazareth.
你必须解释为什么基督教在没有拿撒勒的耶稣的情况下成为一种宗教。 You'd have to explain why Christianity became a religion without Jesus of Nazareth.
基本上，历史学家接受拿撒勒的耶稣存在过，他 被钉十字架，他的追随者认为他从死里复活了。 Basically, historians accept that Jesus of Nazareth existed, that he was crucified, and that his followers thought that he'd risen from the dead.
现在，这并不意味着他真的复活了，但是…… Now, that doesn't mean he did, but...
这不是一些新无神论者，如理查德·道金斯，告诉我的——他根本不存在。 That's not what some of the new atheists, like Richard Dawkins, were telling me—that he didn't exist at all.
嗯，那都是愚蠢的；他是存在的。 Well, that's all silly; he existed.
好吧，如果他存在过呢？ Okay, well, what about if he existed?
那没关系；也许他只是某个宗教团体的成员，也许他只是某个 宗教人物、先知或者其他什么——一个失败的犹太末世先知。 That's fine; maybe he's just a member of some religious group, maybe he's just some religious figure, a prophet, or whatever—a failed apocalyptic Jewish prophet.
但如果神存在呢？ But what if God exists?
所以我研究了——不是流行的当代护教学。 And so I studied—not pop contemporary apologetics.
护教学这个词是个好词，但对我来说，它可能意味着那些认为某件 事是真的并且随意试图为它辩护的人，他们只是想骗你相信它。 The word apologetics is a good word, but for me, it can mean people who think something is true and arbitrarily try to reason for it, and they're just going to try to trick you into it.
我不想要那个；我想知道真相。 I didn't want that; I wanted to know.
所以我读了托马斯·阿奎那的著作。 So I read Thomas Aquinas.
当我在大学时读托马斯·阿奎那的著作时，我误解了他。 When I read Thomas Aquinas back in college, I misunderstood him.
他的著作——他是一位13世纪的意大利公教会基督徒哲学家，他用亚里士多德的术语，亚 里士多德的命名法来表达——他展示了在我们所看到的世界中，相信神与理性是一致的。 His work—he's a 13th-century Italian Catholic Christian philosopher who spoke in Aristotelian terms, Aristotle's nomenclature—and he showed the coherence of belief in God with reason in the world that we see.
所以当我在大学里读他的著作时，我想，不好意思，我有过敏反应。 So when I read him in college, I thought, excuse me, I've got allergies.
我想，天哪，这家伙是个白痴。 I thought, Man, this guy's a moron.
我认为，他的整个论证都依赖于托勒密关于运动和惯性的过时观点。 His whole argument depends, I thought, on Ptolemy's outdated views of motion and inertia.
我以为这是托勒密对宇宙的某种球形观点，在那里一切都在球 体中，这个东西推动那个东西，那个东西又推动这个东西。 I thought this was Ptolemy's sort of spherical view of the cosmos, where everything's in spheres and this thing moves this thing and that thing moves this thing.
我以为他的论证依赖于那个。 I thought his arguments depended on that.
我想，好吧，这家伙…… I'm like, Okay, this guy...
我的朋友说，不，伙计，你误解他了。 My friend was like, No, man, you misunderstood him.
顺便说一句，一些建议：如果你拿历史上世界上最伟大的思想家之 一，你认为你读了他一次就超越了他，那就审视一下你自己吧。 By the way, some advice: if you take one of the world's greatest thinkers in history and you think you read him once and you just trumped him, examine yourself.
这些人之所以是世界上最伟大的思想家是有原因的 ；有时需要花一点功夫才能弄明白他们的思想。 These guys are the world's greatest thinkers for a reason; sometimes they take a little bit of work to figure out.
我读了一些被称为托马斯主义者的当代哲学家的著作，比如天主教徒埃德·费泽 ，他解释说，尽管阿奎那的论证是用英语写的，但我并没有理解其中的概念。 Well, I read contemporary philosophers who were called Thomists, like Ed Feser, who's a Catholic, and he explained that even though Aquinas' arguments were in English, I didn't understand the concepts.
所以埃德·费泽把这些概念翻译成了我能理解的方式，我想，这些论证相当可靠。 So Ed Feser translated those concepts into a way that I could understand, and I thought, These are pretty solid.
所以，在卡拉姆宇宙论证（我认为这个论证很好）和一些更古老、更深奥的关于神存在的 论证之间——这些论证深深植根于哲学、圣经、理性和观察——我开始明白神是存在的。 So, between the Kalam cosmological argument, which I think is good, and really some of the older, denser arguments for God's existence—deeply rooted in philosophy, Scripture, reason, and observation—I came to see that God exists.
相信神存在是合理的，但我也开始相信，如果不相信神存在，我就是愚蠢的。 It is reasonable to believe that God exists, but I also started to believe that I would be foolish to not believe God exists.
我认为神就是存在的。 I think God simply exists.
当我们谈论神时，真的很困难，因为这个实在远 远超出了我们，我们并不总是有词语来描述神。 When we talk about God, really, it's difficult because this reality is so far beyond us that we don't always have words for God.
所以有时我们不得不用类比的方式来说话。 So sometimes we have to speak in terms of analogy.
我们说神是一个存在，但他实际上不仅仅是存在；他是存在的根基。 We say God is a being, but he's really more than being; he's the grounding of being.
当我开始研究所有这些认为神存在的理由时——托马斯·阿奎那的五条论证、 柏拉图、亚里士多德、当代的论证如卡拉姆宇宙论证、神存在的本体论证—— 我开始想，好吧，我的一些无神论导师似乎比我认识的一些基督徒更聪明。 When I started studying all of these reasons to think that God exists—Thomas Aquinas' Five Ways, Plato, Aristotle, contemporary arguments like the Kalam, the ontological argument for God's existence—I started thinking, Okay, well, some of my atheist mentors over here seem more intelligent than some of the Christians I know.
但实际上，当你把他们与最强大的基督教哲学家相比时，天哪，他们是多么肤浅。 But really, when you compare them to the strongest Christian philosophers, boy, are they shallow.
无神论对于那些反对体制和权威、不信任他人的愤怒的年轻人来说很容易。 Atheism is easy for young, angry men who are anxious against the system and their authority, and they don't trust people.
但当你真正研究它并且看清它的本质时，你理解了尼采，你理解了萨特，然 后你理解了柏拉图、亚里士多德、阿奎那等人。C.S.路易斯很有帮助。 But when you really study it out and see it for what it is, you understand Nietzsche, you understand Sartre, and then you understand Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, etc. C.S. Lewis is helpful.
你明白有神论在智力上是一个更站得住脚的立场。 You understand that theism is a much more intellectually tenable position.
我可以全心全意地告诉你，我只是想知道这是真的，我想去做。 I can tell you with all of my heart, I just wanted to know it was true, and I wanted to do it.
我愿意成为一个无神论者，这对我来说很难。 I was willing to become an atheist, and that was hard for me.
我想，也许这不是真的。 I thought, Maybe this isn't true.
但后来我看到，不，神是存在的，不管有没有圣经，我都可以知道拿撒 勒的耶稣存在过，他被钉在十字架上，他的追随者相信他又复活了。 But then when I saw, No, God exists, and with or without the Bible, I can know Jesus of Nazareth existed, that he was crucified, that his followers believed he rose again.
我把这两件事联系起来了。 Well, I connected those two things.
顺便说一下，如果你想要关于拿撒勒的耶稣生平的书，N.T.赖特写了一本很棒的书。 By the way, if you want books on the life of Jesus of Nazareth, N.T. Wright wrote a great book.
这是一本巨著，大约有700或800页。 It's a giant tome, like 700 or 800 pages.
我想，它叫做《神的儿子的复活》。 It's called, I think, The Resurrection of the Son of God.
如果你是一个喜欢读书的人，想要真正深入研究，就买那本书吧。 If you're a bookish person and you want to really dig in, get that one.
此外，迈克·利科纳和加里·哈伯马斯有一些关于复活的篇幅较短、更易理 解的书；也可以看看这些书，或者你可以在YouTube上观看讲座。 Also, Mike Licona and Gary Habermas have shorter, more digestible books on the resurrection; check them out as well, or you can watch lectures on YouTube.
我注意到，很多时候，网络无神论者对历史更加苛刻——对历史 本身持怀疑态度——甚至超过了那些无神论的专业历史学家。 What I notice is that a lot of times, internet atheists are harder on the history—skeptical of history itself—more than professional historians who are atheists.
除了少数例外，无神论的专业历史学家都知道拿撒勒的耶稣存在 过，他被钉十字架等等。网络无神论者却想认为他根本不存在。 Professional historians who are atheists, with the exception of a few, all know Jesus of Nazareth existed, that he was crucified, etc. Internet atheists want to think he just didn't exist.
那不是一个站得住脚的立场。 That's not a tenable position.
我想跟随证据。 I wanted to follow the evidence.
我研究了证据：耶稣存在过，他被钉十字架，他复活了，或者他的追随者认为他复活了。 I studied the evidence: Jesus existed, he was crucified, he resurrected, or his followers thought he resurrected.
但如果奇迹不会发生，那么他的追随者只是认为他复活了，但他们一定是错的。 But if miracles don't happen, then his followers simply thought he resurrected, but they must have been mistaken.
所以我查看了对这些数据的其他解释。 So I looked at alternate explanations for the data.
我可以一直说下去。 I could go on and on.
最后，我明白如果神以经典意义上存在——以人们理解他的方式存在 ——甚至亚里士多德对此有一种感觉，柏拉图对此也有一种感觉。 At the end of the day, I understood that if God exists in the classical sense—in the sense that people have understood him— even Aristotle had a sense of this, Plato had a sense of this.
我认为，正如圣经中所呈现的那样，古典基督教哲学家认 为神与世界互动，并且有充分的理由认为这个现实存在。 I think the classical Christian philosophers, as God is presented in Scripture, and God interacts in the world, and there are good reasons to think that this reality exists.
所以，如果他存在，而且对拿撒勒的耶稣复活的所有解释都失败了 ，除了那个暗示他真的复活的解释，再加上相信神确实在世界上行 事，我就想，好吧，这不仅在理性上是连贯的，而且与证据相符。 So if he exists and all the explanations fail for Jesus of Nazareth's resurrection except for the one that suggests he really did resurrect, coupled with the belief that God does act in the world, I'm like, Okay, this is not only rationally coherent and fits with the evidence.
我曾一度认为，也许对耶稣、他的钉十字架、他的复活 的信仰直接违背了证据，我只能关掉理智去相信它。 I thought for a time maybe belief in Jesus, his crucifixion, his resurrection went directly against the evidence and I just had to turn my mind off and believe it.
不、不、不、不、不。 No, no, no, no, no.
相信耶稣的存在、钉十字架、埋葬和复活与我们拥有的证据是深度一致的，特别是 当你接受一个真正在世界上行事、关心我们生命、关心你和爱你的神的存在时。 The belief in the existence, crucifixion, burial, and the resurrection of Jesus is deeply coherent with the evidence that we have, especially when you take in the existence of a God who really acts in the world, who cares about our lives, who cares about you and loves you.
好的，所以在经历了一段时间的挣扎之后，我重新回到了基督教。 Okay, so I'm back in with Christianity after a period of struggle.
接下来发生的事情是：我在海军陆战队。 Here's what happened then: I'm in the Marine Corps.
路易斯写了一本书叫《单纯基督教》。 C.S. Lewis wrote a book called Mere Christianity.
《单纯基督教》只是路易斯试图解释基督教的关键概念，并且说，抛开 所有教义问题——长老会、循道宗、卫斯理宗、浸信会、天主教、英国 圣公会、路德宗等等之间的分歧——让我们只关注基督教的核心信仰体 系，看看我们是否可以讨论这个问题，并对它做出一些合理的理解。 Mere Christianity simply is Lewis's way of trying to explain key concepts in Christianity and saying, without all the doctrinal issues—the disagreements between Presbyterians and Methodists and Wesleyans and Baptists and Catholics and Anglicans and Lutherans and all the others—let's just take the core belief system of Christianity and see if we can talk about this and make some reasonable sense of it.
并且向现代听众解释这一点。 And explain this to people in modern audiences.
我所说的现代，是指20世纪40年代和50年代。 By modern, I mean I think the 1940s and 50s.
这很有帮助：让我们不要争论教义；让我们只解释这个信仰体系的核心支柱。 It was helpful: let's not argue about the doctrine; let's just explain the core pillars of this belief system.
所以，因为我没有兴趣为自己辩护，只是为了可能帮助人们理解，有些人说我前后不一致。 So, because I have no interest in defending myself, but just to maybe help folks understand, some people have said I've been inconsistent.
我明白这一切；我理解。 I get all this; I get it.
在我的思想和内心，我实际上是一个简单的人。 Where I've been in my mind and heart, I'm actually kind of a simple guy.
人们认为我读了所有这些理论和深奥的东西。 People think I read all this theory and deep stuff.
我告诉你，我真的只是一个简单的人，真的想弄明白。 I'm telling you, I'm honestly just a simple person who really wanted to figure it out.
我获得了一个高等学位，研究它，阅读的远远超过我 的学位要求，因为我想知道它是真的，我想去做。 I got an advanced degree, studied it, and read way more than my degree required because I want to know it's true, and I want to do it.
如果是无神论，我愿意接受。 If it's atheism, I was willing to do it.
如果是基要主义浸信会，我愿意接受。 If it's fundamentalist Baptist, I'm willing to do it.
不管是什么，我都愿意接受。 If it's whatever, I'm willing to do it.
如果是真的，我想要真理。 If it's true, I want the truth.
那就是我当时的状态。 That's where I was at.
所以当我怀疑并重新回到一个坚定的信念——比以往任何时候都 更坚定——基督教是真实的，我安息在所谓的单纯基督教中。 So when I doubted and I came back to a firm belief—more than ever—that Christianity is true, I rested in what's called mere Christianity.
神存在；他以这种美好的方式存在。 God exists; he exists in this beautiful way.
任何时候有人试图以一种容易理解的方式向你表达神，他们肯定是在简化神的概念。 Anytime somebody tries to express God to you in a way that is easily digestible, they're definitely reducing the concept of God.
想想看：在量子力学甚至天体物理学中，有一些 概念即使是我们地球上最聪明的人也难以理解。 Think about it: in quantum mechanics or even astrophysics, there are concepts that even the smartest people on our planet have difficulty with.
这有点像如果你认为你理解量子力学，你可能并不完全理解量子力学。 It's sort of like if you think you understand quantum mechanics, you probably don't quite understand quantum mechanics.
我们知道这些东西存在；我们知道这些亚原子粒子以这些奇怪的方式运动。 We know these things exist; we know these subatomic particles behave in these strange ways.
我们从数学上知道这些事情，有些是通过观察知道的，但我 们就是无法完全理解，因为这个现实超出了我们的经验。 We know these things mathematically and some of it through observation, but we just can't quite wrap our heads around it because this reality is just beyond our experience.
它超出了人类的思维。 It's just beyond the human mind.
但我们知道它们就在那里。 But we know they're there.
我认为神是那个乘以无数倍。 I think God is that times a jillion.
我们知道神存在，但他远远超出了人类思维的理性能力，对吗？ God we know exists, but he is so far beyond the human mind's ability to rationalize, right?
我知道神是真实的，但他伟大得多。 I knew that God is real, but he's so much greater.
他不是不合逻辑的，但他比我以前想象的要伟大得 多，这对我来说是一件可怕而又令人谦卑的事情。 He's not illogical, but he's so much greater than I've conceived before, which was a terrifying and humbling thing for me.
那么，我只想安息在单纯的基督教中，因为我知道这是真的。 Well, then I just want to rest in what is mere Christianity because I know this is true.
神以这个美丽的三位一体的方式存在，正如基督徒称呼他的那样。 God exists in this beautiful Trinity, as Christians call him.
三位一体不是不合逻辑的；它在逻辑上是深度一致的。 The Trinity is not illogical; it's deeply logically coherent.
一旦你开始理解它，它就是美丽的。 It's beautiful once you begin to understand it.
但这以一种我无法完全理解的方式呈现了神，这让 我觉得这实际上说明了我对神的期望是有道理的。 But this presents God in a way that I can't fully wrap my head around, which makes me think that actually makes sense of what I would expect of God.
如果它在逻辑上是不连贯或矛盾的，我就无法接受它。 If it were logically incoherent or contradictory, I couldn't accept it.
但基督教将神呈现为三位一体是深深地美丽和连贯的。 But Christianity presenting God as a Trinity is deeply beautiful and coherent.
就像量子力学在某种程度上超出了我们的思维， 三位一体在某种程度上也超出了我们的思维。 Just like quantum mechanics are beyond our mind in a certain way, the Trinity is beyond our mind in a certain way.
神以这种方式存在是一个奥秘。 It's a mystery that God exists in this way.
正如C.S.路易斯将谈论基督的神性——基督是谁？ As C.S. Lewis will talk about the deity of Christ—who was Christ?
他只是一个先知吗？ Was he just a prophet?
他不仅仅如此。 He was much more.
他有人性；他完全是人，但他也是这位超越我们的神，来与我们同在。 He had a human nature; he's fully man, but he was also this God that’s beyond us, come to be with us.
这位独一神的位格，由一个女人所生——一个女 人真的将这位三位一体的位格带到了世界上。 This person of the one God, born of a woman—a woman literally birthed this person of the Trinity into the world.
她是他的母亲，我愿意安息在这些事情上。 She was his mother, and I was willing to rest in these things.
我也确实这样做了。 And I did.
但我生命中发生了一个情节转折。 But a plot twist in my life happened.
我的朋友说，罗杰，你需要攻读一个高等学位。 My friend said, Roger, you need to work on an advanced degree.
我说，好的，听起来不错。 I said, Okay, sounds good.
所以当我在研究哲学、文化、历史和圣经，比我以往任何时候都 更深入时，我私下做这些事情，因为我是一个注重隐私的人。 So as I was studying philosophy, culture, history, and Scripture at a deeper level than I've ever studied it, I'm doing these things privately because I'm a private person.
我很难谈论我的个人生活，这就是为什么人们觉得我很疏远，我为此感到抱歉。 It's hard for me to talk about my personal life, which is why people find me distant, and I'm sorry for that.
我喜欢谈论大的想法和概念，而将我的个人生活保留给自己。 I like to talk about big ideas and concepts and keep my personal life to myself.
我私下做所有这些事情，你们中的一些人在这段时间认识我。 I'm doing all these things privately, and some of you have known me during this time.
我慢慢开始意识到，基督教——从历史上看，我现在认为我可以捍卫的基督 教——与在我青少年时期帮助过我的基要主义浸信会基督教有一点不同。 It slowly began to dawn on me that Christianity—historically, the Christianity that I now thought I could defend—was a little bit different than the fundamentalist Baptist Christianity that had helped me when I was a teenager.
在我20多岁的时候，我与他们一起服侍——他们是基督徒吗？ In my 20s, that I served with—are they Christians?
哦，是的，这些人中有许多人爱主。 Oh yeah, many of these people love the Lord.
他们很虔诚，他们对神、基督和圣经有相同的信仰。 They're devout; they believe the same things about God and Christ, the Scriptures.
我慢慢开始意识到，历史上的基督教略有不同。 The historical Christianity I slowly began to realize was slightly different.
所以就像我有不同类别的论证让我认为基督教是真实的一样，事情是这样 的：我有几个不同的类别来解释为什么我认为基督教一直都是公教会的。 So just like I have different categories of arguments that lead me to think Christianity is true, here's what's happened: I have several different categories for why I think Christianity has always been Catholic.
现在，G.K.切斯特顿——我想有人说如果有人问他为什么认为基督教是真 的，他就不得不说类似这样的话：「嗯，这就像问我为什么更喜欢文明。」 Now, G.K. Chesterton—I think someone said if someone asks him why he thinks Christianity is true, he'd have to say something like, Well, that's like asking me why I prefer civilization.
你会怎么说？ What would you say?
这是一个如此大的概念。 It's such a big concept.
你周围的一切都让你更喜欢文明的人性而不是非文明的人性。 Everything around you makes you prefer civilized humanity over non-civilized humanity.
所以G.K.切斯特顿说：「如果你问我为什么认为文明 是好的、真实的、更好的，我会说，『嗯，我不知道。』 So G.K. Chesterton said, If you ask me why I think civilization is good and true and better, I would just be like, 'Well, I don't know.
它太大了。 It's huge.
它就是一切。 It's everything.
那边有个书架，有和平、警察、道路和所有这些东西。」 There's a bookshelf over there, and there's peace and policemen and roads and all this stuff.'
基督教就是这样的。 That's how Christianity is.
基督教在西方文明中根深蒂固。 Christianity is so deep in Western civilization.
尼采知道这一点；萨特知道这一点。 Nietzsche knew this; Sartre knew this.
互联网上的流行无神论者对此轻描淡写。 Pop atheists on the internet gloss over this.
甚至一些新无神论者也会想，伙计，我们不欠基督教任何西方文明发展的功劳。 Even some of the new atheists will think, Man, we don't owe Christianity anything for the development of Western civilization.
如果我是一个无神论者，如果我诚实且博览群书，我将不得 不相信，基督教长期以来深深地塑造了西方文明的结构。 If I were an atheist, I would be forced to believe, if I were honest and well-read, that Christianity has deeply shaped the fabric of Western civilization for a long time.
就像我认为有很多理由认为基督教是真实的一样， 我认为天主教是真实的也有几个相互关联的类别。 Well, just like I think there are a lot of reasons to think Christianity is true, there are several categories why I think Catholicism is true, and they're connected.
剧透一下，这四个类别将是圣经、历史、哲学，以及我自己寻求神的个人经历。 The four categories, just as a spoiler, will be Scripture, history, philosophy, and then my own personal experience of seeking God.
在整个过程中，我一直想知道什么是真理，我一直想去实践。 In all this process, I've wanted to know what is true, and I've wanted to do it.
所以当我到了可以为基督教辩护的地步时，我要说的一件 事是，基督教塑造、影响并建立了我们所知的西方文明。 So when I came to the place where I can defend Christianity, one of the things I would say is that Christianity has shaped and influenced and built Western civilization as we know it.
有一些古典希腊和罗马的东西深深植根于西方文明，但当基督教 出现时，这个宗教在整个罗马帝国的爆炸式传播让罗马人不安。 There are some classical Greek and Roman things deeply ingrained into Western civ, but when Christianity happened, this explosion of this religion throughout the Roman Empire disconcerted the Romans.
罗马作家们在谈论，这个在我们帝国传播的奇怪的新教派是什么，我们无法阻止？ Roman writers were talking about, What is this strange new cult spreading through our empire that we can't stop?
为什么人们不再保持传统的异教信仰？ Why aren't people staying classically pagan?
这里发生了什么？ What's going on here?
这真的开始改变世界，你可以通过历史和阅读原始文本来追踪它。 That really began to change the world, and you can track it forensically through history and reading the source texts.
在我身后的古代异教世界里，人的尊严——对人的尊严和道德 价值的信念——与我们今天在现代思想中所假设的不一样。 Behind me, in the ancient pagan world, human dignity—belief in human dignity and moral worth—isn't the same as what we assume in modern thinking today.
我们认为人具有人的尊严、道德价值和权利。 We assume that people have human dignity and moral worth and rights.
这并不总是一件事。 That hasn't always been a thing.
基督教绝对改变了这一点。 Christianity definitely changed that.
现在，在无神论者说「嗯，基督徒有时也迫害人」之前，是 的，但基督教改变了人们看待这个问题的方式也是事实。 Now, before an atheist says, Well, Christians sometimes persecute people, yeah, but it's simply also true that Christianity changed the way people see this.
罗马异教帝国对儿童有一些非常卑劣的做法。 The Roman pagan empire had some very despicable practices with children.
基督教改变了这一点，因为人性观发生了转变——我们都是按照神的形象创 造的：犹太人、外邦人、男人、女人、孩子、奴隶、富人、穷人、参议员。 Christianity changed that because of this shift in views of humanity—that we're all created in God's image: Jew, Gentile, man, woman, child, slave, rich, poor, senator.
我们都有道德价值；我们都有道德义务和责任；我们都有权利。 We all have moral worth; we all have moral duties and responsibilities; we all have rights.
那么，因此，慈善——我在古代异教世界找不到慈善。 Well then, because of that, charity—I can't find charity in the ancient pagan world.
这是因为基督教而演变出来的：医院、科学进步。 That's something that evolved because of Christianity: hospitals, scientific progress.
有一本书叫《西方科学的起源》，作者是大卫·林德伯格。 There's a book called On the Beginnings of Western Science by David Lindberg.
我不知道他是否是基督徒，但他在谈论从公元前600年到公元1450年的哲学、宗 教和制度背景下的欧洲科学传统。当你开始研究这个问题时，基督教塑造了这一切。 I don't know that he's a Christian, but he is talking about the European scientific tradition in philosophical, religious, and institutional context from 600 BC to 1450 AD. Well, when you start looking into this, Christianity shaped this.
这是我不想看的：是什么样的基督教开始实践基督的教导，改变他们的生活和社会？ Here's what I didn't want to look at: what kind of Christianity was it that began carrying out the teachings of Christ, transforming their lives and society?
当时没有浸信会。 There were no Baptists.
我的浸信会朋友认为浸信会秘密地存在于地下，一直可以追溯到基督。 My Baptist friends think the Baptists secretly existed underground, going all the way back to Christ.
这不是真的。 It's not true.
事实上，我们可以谈论这个一段时间。 In fact, we could talk about that for a while.
一些浸信会会试图在整个历史中与异端团体结盟，并说，嘿，看到多纳徒派了吗？ Some Baptists will try to ally themselves with heretical groups throughout history and say, Hey, see the Donatists?
他们重新施洗。 They re-baptized.
公教会压迫基督徒。 The Catholic Church was oppressing Christians.
我们浸信会才是真正的基督徒。 We Baptists are the true Christians.
在圣奥古斯丁那里，好吧，这实际上不是真的。 In St. Augustine, okay, that's actually not true.
没有证据支持这一点，我知道这一点是因为我读过原始资料。 There's no evidence of that, and I know that because I've read the source material.
我读过圣奥古斯丁反对多纳徒派的著作。 I read St. Augustine against the Donatists.
多纳徒派可能会谴责现代浸信会，浸信会也会谴责他们。 The Donatists would probably condemn modern Baptists, and Baptists would condemn them.
他们不是浸信会。 They're not Baptists.
有时浸信会为了试图表明他们可以一直追溯到基督和使徒，会真的与异 端团体、与异教徒结盟，只是为了表明他们在宗教改革之前就存在。 Sometimes Baptists, to try to show that they go all the way back to Christ and the apostles, will literally align themselves with heretical groups, with heretics, just to show that they pre-exist the Reformation.
但浸信会并非如此。罗杰·奥尔森是一位浸信会的历史学家。 But Baptists don't. So Roger Olson is a historian who's a Baptist.
他是一位有资历的历史学家，在他的《基督教神 学的故事》一书中，他谈到了浸信会的起源。 He's a credentialed historian, and in his book A Story of Christian Theology, he talks about the origin of the Baptists.
他说最早的浸信会教会是从英格兰的清教徒公理会中产生的。 He says the earliest Baptist congregations emerged out of Puritan Congregationalism in England.
浸信会是从清教主义发展而来的，清教主义是宗教改革 的一个改革宗部分，可能还有一些再洗礼派的影响。 Baptists grew out of Puritanism, which is a Reformed part of the Reformation, and probably some Anabaptist influence.
浸信会并没有一直追溯到最初。 Baptists didn't go all the way back.
当你看塑造世界的基督教时，那是公教会。 When you look at the Christianity that was shaping the world, it's Catholic.
这是无可回避的。 There's no getting around that.
我已经接受了这一点，但这对我来说是一个挑战。 I've come to terms with it, but that was challenging for me.
你说，嗯，是的，也许他们有一些事情是对的。 You say, Well, yeah, maybe they had some things right.
穆斯林有一些事情是对的。 The Muslims had some things right.
是的，一些穆斯林有一些事情是对的，我钦佩许多高尚的穆斯林。 Yeah, some Muslims have some things right, and I admire that about many noble Muslims.
所以你会想，嗯，也许就是这样。 So you're like, Well, maybe it's like that.
不，这些人接受基督的教导，改变他们的生活，将其应用到文化和社会中，改变了世界。 No, these are people taking the teachings of Christ, transforming their lives, applying it to culture and society, and it changed the world.
现在我们站在巨人的肩膀上。 Now we live on the shoulders of giants.
我们今天享受美好的事物，却认为这是理所当然的，这是因为这些公教会 基督徒活出他们的信仰——即使在科学、冶金学领域，比如修道士们。 We take the good things today and take it for granted because of these Catholic Christians living out their faith—even in science, metallurgy, with the monks, for example.
现在，有些基督徒是反科学的吗？ Now, have some Christians been anti-science?
我今天认识他们。 I know them today.
现在有一些基督徒是反科学的；一直都有。 There are Christians now who are anti-science; always have been.
有些基督徒迷信吗？ Have some Christians been superstitious?
是的，这是真的。 Yes, that's true.
今天，无神论者也可能是迷信的，这也是事实——不是全部，但有一些。 It's also true that today, atheists can also be superstitious—not all, but some.
我们不再只依赖理性和科学了。 We're not all just relying on reason and science anymore.
一些非宗教的人认为地球是平的。 Some people think the Earth is flat who are non-religious.
任何人都可能迷信。 Anybody can be superstitious.
公教会基督教正在革新世界，这也是事实。 And it's also true that Catholic Christianity was revolutionizing the world.
我开始看到基督的教导改变了世界，这是在公教会和东正教基 督教中发生的，而不是在低教会、非宗派的浸信会基督教中。 I began to see that the teachings of Christ transformed the world, and it did so in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, not in low-church, non-denominational Baptist Christianity.
那么，那里有价值吗？ Now, is there value there?
也许吧。 Perhaps.
现在是说这个的好时机：我知道，我将永远感谢我的基督徒兄弟姐妹，他们是长老会、 浸信会、卫理公会、非宗派——这现在是一件大事——以及改革宗，这也是一件大事。 This is a good time to say this: I know, and I'll always be grateful for my Christian brothers and sisters who are Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, non-denominational—which is a big thing now—and Reformed, which is a big thing.
我将永远感谢你们。 I'll always be grateful for you guys.
我不会天真地认为我认识的一些人会因此失去友谊，我理解，因为十年 前，我会和你一样，认为我正在失去信仰，败坏信仰，加入一个邪教。 I'm not naive enough to think that some folks I know will lose friendships over this, and I understand because ten years ago, I'd be where you are, thinking I'm losing my faith, corrupting the faith, joining a cult.
我明白。 I get that.
所以如果你必须解除我的好友关系或中断交往，或者认为我疯了或精神错乱，我理解。 So if you have to unfriend me or break fellowship or think I'm crazy or insane, I get that.
顺便说一下，我确实想让你知道罗马公教会对你的官方立场。 By the way, I do want you to know the official position of the Roman Catholic Church on you.
如果你是一个受洗的信徒，已经悔改你的罪，将你的信仰放 在基督里，并在洗礼中接受他，他们认为你是一个基督徒。 If you are a baptized believer who has repented of your sins, placed your faith in Christ, and accepted him in baptism, they think you're a Christian.
如果你是一个东正教基督徒，他们知道圣灵正在你的宗教团体中工作。 If you're an Orthodox Christian, they know that the Holy Spirit is working in your religious communities.
我想到一些帮助过我的乡村浸信会传道人。 I thought about that with some of the country Baptist preachers who helped me.
我想，伙计，你不能告诉我神没有用那个讲道来触动我的心。 I think, Man, you can't tell me God didn't use that preaching to tug at my heart.
我知道那个帮助我的人是一个基督徒。 I know that man is a Christian who helped me.
罗马公教会的官方立场——实际上有一份关于这个的官方文件，《教会 合一法令》（Unitatis Redintegratio）。 The Roman Catholic Church's official position—there's actually an official document on this, Unitatis Redintegratio.
不要让我拼写它；它是拉丁文，但它的意思就像重新整合。 Don't ask me to spell it; it's Latin, but it just means something like reintegration.
我们如何处理所有这些因宗教改革而分裂出去的基督教团体？ What do we do with all these Christian communities that splintered off as a result of the Reformation?
他们说，嗯，他们中的许多人是真正的基督徒，只是不知道这段历史，不了 解更大的图景，但他们是为基督而活的基督徒，在他们所在的地方寻求神。 They're saying, Well, so many of them are genuine Christians who just don't know the history of this and don't understand the bigger picture, but they're Christians living for Christ, seeking God where they are.
神知道这一点并祝福这一点，公教会也承认这一点。 God knows that and blesses that, and the Catholic Church recognizes that.
所以如果你切断与我的联系，我理解。 So if you cut me off, I understand.
只要知道公教会承认你是一个基督徒。 Just know that the Catholic Church recognizes that you're a Christian.
讽刺的是——我开始看到是公教会基督教塑造了这一切。 The irony of that—I began to see that it was Catholic Christianity shaping all this.
宗教改革历史的另一部分——我们可以详细谈谈这个。 Another part of the history of the Reformation—we can talk about this at length.
许多新教徒会谈论所谓的《福克斯殉道者书》，他们会谈论罗马公教会压 迫和迫害他们眼中的真正基督徒：威克里夫、丁道尔、路德宗、圣公会。 So many Protestants will talk about what's called Fox's Book of Martyrs, and they will talk about the Roman Catholic Church oppressing and persecuting what they see as true Christians: Wycliffe, Tyndale, Lutherans, Anglicans.
他们会谈论英格兰的血腥玛丽等等。发生的一些事情— —我认为，约翰·胡斯被公教会允许由世俗当局处死。 They'll talk about Bloody Mary in England, etc. Some of those things that happened—John Huss was allowed by the Catholics, I think, to be put to death by secular authorities.
其中一些事情确实发生了；一些公教会主教腐败了，即使是最近。 Some of those things did happen; some Catholic bishops have been corrupt, even recently.
但这里有另一面：在现代世界之前，西方文明在某种程度上仍然有亚里士多德 的政治观点，即国家不仅应该为人民提供最大的自由，而且要促进善的事物。 But here's the other side of that: Western civilization still had, until the modern world, to some degree, Aristotle's view of politics, in which the state should not only provide for the maximum liberty of people but promote what is good.
在宗教改革期间，这变得相当主观化。 During the Reformation, that was rather subjectified.
那些曾经说过「这是好的；这有利于人类繁荣；这是道德的；这是我们应该提倡 的」的机构——你可以说，嗯，也许他们做得太过分了，但那是分裂的心态。 The institutions that had said, This is what's good; here's what’s good for human flourishing; here's what’s moral; here's what we should promote—you could say, Well, maybe they took it too far, but that was the mindset that fragmented.
像马丁·路德这样的人反对这些机构的权威。 Men like Martin Luther pushed against the authority of these institutions.
然后他想知道他说过这句话时——他可能说过每个基督徒都是自己的教皇。 And then he wondered when he said that he might have said this—that every Christian is his own pope.
我不确定他是否真的说过每个基督徒都是自己的教皇，但从本质上说，你只需要圣经。 I'm not sure if he actually said, Every Christian is his own pope, but essentially, you just need the Scriptures.
我们不需要大公会议或教皇；我们只需要圣经。 We don't need the councils or the popes; we just need the Scriptures.
到他生命的最后，他想知道为什么人们不听他的。 Well, then by the end of his life, he's wondering why people don't listen to him.
每个人都认为有专家；每个人都认为他们可以自己理解 圣经，而不需要基督教信仰或机构的历史智慧传统。 Everyone thinks there's an expert; everyone thinks that they could understand the Bible for themselves without the historical intellectual tradition of the Christian faith or the institution.
它只是分裂成一堆教派，立即导致了社会动荡和战争。 It just fragmented into a bunch of denominations that led immediately to social upheaval and wars.
英格兰的亨利八世严厉迫害公教徒。 Henry VIII in England persecuted Catholics severely.
英格兰的伊丽莎白女王相当严厉地迫害公教徒。 Queen Elizabeth in England persecuted Catholics quite harshly.
所以公教徒确实迫害圣公会教徒，圣公会教徒也迫害公教徒。 So Catholics did persecute Anglicans, and Anglicans persecuted Catholics.
我实际上见过伊恩·佩斯利，他是爱尔兰的一个大人 物，他认为罗马是巴比伦的妓女，教皇是敌基督。 I actually met Ian Paisley, who was a big figure in Ireland, and he considers Rome the whore of Babylon and the pope the Antichrist.
我记得有一次他们问他为什么如此反对罗马，他指出一 个日期，我相信是爱尔兰公教徒杀害了一些新教徒。 I think when they asked him one time why he was so against Rome, he pointed to a date in which I believe it was Irish Catholics who killed some Protestants.
这是一场悲剧。 It's a tragedy.
这个故事的另一部分是新教徒在迫害公教徒。 The other part of that story is that the Protestants were persecuting the Catholics.
那些确实想要公教会权威的德国诸侯对路德很满意，战争爆发是因为人们腐败。 The German princes who did want the authority of the Catholic Church were pretty happy about Luther, and wars broke out because people are corrupt.
我认为大约有800万人死于欧洲。 I think something like 8 million people died in Europe.
有瘟疫和战争，战争是新教改革的直接结果——它带来的社会动荡。 There was plague and war, and the war was the direct result of the Protestant Reformation—the social upheaval that it brought.
在英格兰，有一本伊蒙·达菲写的书叫《祭坛的剥夺》，还有另一本关于意外的宗教改革 的书——宗教改革如何迅速导致了我们生活的世俗、现代、不可知论/无神论的世界。 In England, there's a book by Eamon Duffy called The Stripping of the Altars, and there's another book about the unintended Reformation—how the Reformation quickly led to the secular, modern, agnostic-slash-atheist world that we live in.
这些虔诚的基督徒男子做出了一些不明智的呼吁，在英格兰，你有美丽的历史悠久的基督 教教堂，人们会闯入其中，打碎祭坛，剥去宗教艺术品，因为现在这被视为偶像崇拜。 These devout Christian men made some unwise calls, and in England, you had beautiful historic Christian churches where mobs of people would go in and break apart the altars, strip out the religious art, because now it's idolatry.
艺术立即开始世俗化。 Art immediately began to secularize.
宗教艺术被视为不好的。 Sacred art was seen as bad.
所有这些事情我都在努力思考。 All of these things I'm wrestling with.
好吧，浸信会没有那样做。 Okay, well, the Baptists didn't do that.
嗯，浸信会当时还不存在，但再洗礼派——他们中的一些人做了。 Well, the Baptists weren't around, but the Anabaptists—some of them did.
一些再洗礼派暴力接管了一座城市。 Some Anabaptists violently took over a city.
清教徒——有些人把英格兰的一些清教徒誉为英雄。 The Puritans—some people hail some of the Puritans in England as heroes.
他们中的一些人是虔诚的基督徒，但也有一些暴力接管。 Some of them are devout Christian people, but there were some violent takeovers.
威斯敏斯特信条——与之相关的有暴力。 The Westminster Confession—there's violence attached to that.
不仅仅是公教徒在迫害人；那是一个社会动荡和战争的时代——这不好。 It is not just Catholics persecuting people; it was a time of social upheaval and war—not good.
这就是为什么现代世界的许多人，包括一些美国的开国元勋，会说，我受够了这一切。 And that's why so many people in the modern world, including some of the founding fathers of America, were like, I'm done with all of it.
对吧？ Right?
所有这些事情都在我脑海中浮现。 All these things are sinking in.
现在我想把这些联系起来：我认为神存在；拿撒 勒的耶稣被钉十字架，被埋葬，然后复活了。 Now I want to connect that: I think God exists; Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, was buried, and rose again.
我认为单纯的基督教是真实的。 I think mere Christianity is true.
我该如何处理这段历史？ What do I do with the history of this?
我不想永远生活在单纯的基督教中；我想要完整的基督教。 I don't want to live forever in mere Christianity; I want full Christianity.
什么是完整的基督教？ What is full Christianity?
所以他们不是浸信会。 So they weren't Baptists.
关于这个有几本书——我喜欢阅读原始文本。 A few books on this—I like to read source texts.
这是《尼西亚前教父》第一卷。 This is Volume 1 of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers.
我相信这是由菲利普·沙夫翻译的，但基本上，这甚至是一个新教的翻译。 It was translated by Philip Schaff, I believe, but basically, this is even a Protestant translation.
它涵盖了新约之后大约一百年的基督教著作。 It covers the first hundred years or so of Christian writings after the New Testament.
有些东西是在新约还在写作时就写在这里的，所以这些是非常早期的信仰。 Some things were being written here as the New Testament was still being written, so these are very early beliefs.
我以为公教会的东西都是中世纪的腐败；我以为那是附加物、添加物、附属物。 What I thought was the Catholic stuff was all medieval corruption; I thought it was accretions, add-ons, tack-ons.
你可能会说他们的一些做法可能是，但对于早期教会来说，什么是完整的基督教呢？ You could say perhaps some of their practices might be, but what about what is full Christianity for the early Church?
这让我更加不舒服，但我想跟随证据。 This is what made me further uncomfortable, but I wanted to follow the evidence.
我必须研究这个问题。 I had to study this out.
我想知道什么是真的，我想去做。 I wanted to know what is true, and I wanted to do it.
这花了我一些时间。 It's taken me time.
当我在攻读研究生学位时，我退出了教学和讲道，因为我需要专注于学习。 I backed away from teaching and preaching when I was working on my graduate degree because I needed to focus on my studies.
然后随着时间的推移，我开始看到这些事情。 Then over time, I began to see these things.
有些人想知道为什么我没有那么多讲道或教导。 Some people wonder why I haven't preached as much or taught.
这是因为我开始意识到，随着这些事情的深入，如果我的浸信会朋友等等， It's because I began to realize, as these things were sinking in, that if my Baptist friends, etc.,
非宗派的朋友知道我的信仰，他们就不会再让我讲道了。 non-denominational friends knew what I believed, they wouldn't keep asking me to preach.
所以我开始努力遵循我的良心——至少不是完美地——但在退避。 So I began trying to follow my conscience—at least not perfectly—but backing away.
我只谈论我知道所有基督徒都同意的事情。 I only spoke about things that I knew all Christians agree on.
最终，我知道，嘿，如果这些人知道我开始相信什么，他们就不会问我了。 Eventually, I knew, Hey, if these guys knew what I'm starting to believe, they wouldn't ask me.
所以我决定拒绝他们。 So I decided to turn them down.
使徒教父们说了什么？ What did the Apostolic Fathers say?
哇！ Wow!
好的，我不是在说：我不是说在最初的300年 里，所有的基督徒在所有事情上都达成一致。 Okay, here's what I'm not saying: I'm not saying all of Christian history for the first 300 years had all the Christians agreeing on everything.
哦，不，不是的。 Oh no, no.
有争议。 There were disputes.
他们对圣像有争议；他们对很多事情有争议。 They disputed icons; they disputed lots of things.
我所知道的是，他们在一些关键问题上没有争议地达成一致， 而我作为一个浸信会教徒无法接受——所有这些，毫无例外。 What I do know is that they agreed without debate on key things that I, as a Baptist, can't accept—all of them without exception.
我甚至都不去争论这个。 I'm not even debating it.
他们认为洗礼不仅仅是一个象征——远不止如此。 They thought baptism is much more than a symbol—much more.
他们认为共融，圣餐——他们使用圣餐这个词，这是一个圣 经词汇，一个希腊词，意思是感恩——远不止是一个象征。 They thought that the communion, the Lord's Supper—and they used the word Eucharist, which is a biblical word, a Greek word meaning thanksgiving—is much more than a symbol.
我开始认为新约肯定毫无疑问地教导，这些事情远不止 是象征，而我的许多非宗派浸信会朋友却这样认为。 I began to think the New Testament definitely teaches, without question, that these things are much more than symbols, as so many of my non-denominational Baptist friends think.
也许长老会是对的；也许它不仅仅是一个象征—— 它是一个圣事，基督在灵里临在或类似的东西。 Maybe the Presbyterians had it right; maybe it's more than a symbol—it's a sacrament, and Christ is spiritually present or something like that.
这绝对不是早期基督徒的信仰，我也不认为这是保罗在新约中教导的。 This is emphatically not what the early Christians believed, and I don't think it's what Paul teaches either in the New Testament.
给你几段文字：这是一位英国圣公会学者，J.N.D.凯利。 So just a couple of texts for you: this is an Anglican scholar, J.N.D. Kelly.
他有一本书叫《早期基督教著作》。 He has a book called Early Christian Writings.
对他来说，不接受其中一些东西可能会更舒服，但他对证据很诚实。 It would probably be more comfortable for him to not accept some of these things, but he's honest with the evidence.
他说了几件事：他说在早期教会中，相信基督真实临在是一致的。 He says a couple of things: he says that in the early Church, the belief in the real presence of Christ was unanimous.
他指出，他们相信基督的真实性；这无疑是现实主义的思想——基督真实地存在于圣餐中。 He states that they believed in Christ's realism; it was unquestionably realist thinking—Christ is really present in the Eucharist.
至于洗礼，这位英国圣公会学者说，关于它的意义，一直认为它传达了罪的赦免。 As for baptism, this Anglican scholar says that regarding its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins.
这对浸信会来说很难接受，听起来很疯狂、迷信或像魔法。 That's hard for a Baptist to hear, and that sounds crazy or superstitious or like magic.
但事实并非如此。 It's not.
我们可以谈谈这个。 We can talk about that.
这个视频会很长，所以我们可能需要在另一个视频中讨论这个。 This video is going to be long, so we might have to discuss that in a separate video.
让我们在这里看几个。 Let's just look at a few here.
我想给你读一些原文。 I want to read you some source text.
这是安提阿的伊格那丢。 So this is Ignatius of Antioch.
他写信给以弗所人，以弗所的教会——就是保罗写信给的那个教会。 He's writing to the Ephesians, the church at Ephesus—the same one Paul is writing to.
耶稣训练了约翰，他所爱的门徒；他们很亲近。 Jesus trained John, the disciple whom he loved; they were close.
我将生命奉献给的主，我认为他是复活的主，万王之王，他建立 了一个真实的国度，你和我都应该成为其中的一部分，他不仅要 救赎以色列，还要恢复我们堕落的人性——他训练了约翰。 The Lord that I've given my life to, who I think is the risen Lord, the King of Kings, who established a real kingdom that you and I should be a part of, that wants to redeem not just Israel but restore our fallen humanity—he trained John.
他们很亲近；约翰训练了伊格那丢。 They were close; John trained Ignatius.
这非常接近。 This is very close.
伊格那丢说了什么？ What does Ignatius say?
他在谈论基督，神的独生子，万物的长子，但按肉体 说，是大卫的后裔，在保惠师的引导下顺服主教。 He’s talking about Christ, God's only begotten Son and the firstborn of every creature, but of the seed of David according to the flesh, being under the guidance of the Comforter in obedience to the bishop.
他在谈论教会在主教和长老会的带领下团结在一起。 He’s talking about the Church coming together under obedience to the bishop and the presbytery.
顺便说一下，长老会——有一个希腊词叫做presbuter oi，在新约中经常出现，通常意思是长老，但它也是英语。 By the way, the presbytery—there's a Greek word called presbuteroi, which is in the New Testament and often means elder, but it's also English.
它出现在一种后来才出现的语言中。 It was in a language that then came about much later.
英语中的priest一词源自presbuteroi。 The word priest in English is derived from presbuteroi.
在新约中，如果没有presbuteroi，就不会有英语单词priest。 In the New Testament, there would be no English word priest without presbuteroi.
他继续说，长老会，一个不分裂的心意，擘开同一个饼，就是不朽的良药，预 防我们死亡的解药，驱除邪恶的洁净良方，使我们藉着耶稣基督活在神里面。 He continues, The presbytery, an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote which prevents us from dying, but a cleansing remedy driving away evil, which causes us to live in God through Jesus Christ.
所以耶稣训练了约翰，约翰很早就说，圣餐——同 一个饼——是不朽的良药，预防我们死亡的解药。 So Jesus trained John, and John, very early on, says that the Eucharist—the same bread—is the medicine of immortality and the antidote which prevents us from dying.
好吧，也许那只是一次性的；也许他们不都那样想。 Okay, well, maybe that's just a one-shot; maybe they didn't all think that.
他们都这样想。 They all thought this.
这是另一位早期基督徒游斯丁·马特尔，他在谈论圣礼的施行。 Here is Justin Martyr, another early Christian, talking about the administration of the sacraments.
他谈到圣餐。 He talks about the Eucharist.
在我们中间，这食物被称为Eucharistia，圣餐，除了相信我们所教导的是真 理，并且已经洗净罪孽得到重生，并且按照基督的吩咐生活的人之外，没有人可以参与。 And this food is called among us Eucharistia, the Eucharist, which no one is allowed to partake of but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true and who has been washed with a washing that is for the remission of sins and under regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.
因为我们领受这些，不是作为普通的饼和普通的饮料，而是如同我们的救主耶 稣基督，藉着神的道成了肉身，有肉有血为我们的救恩，照样，我们也被教导 ，这食物藉着他话语的祷告得到祝福，我们的血肉藉着转变从中得到滋养。 For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these, but in like manner as Jesus Christ, our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of his word and from which our blood and flesh are nourished by transmutation.
所以他们没有使用"化质说"这个词，但他使用了"转变"这个词，概念非常相似。 So they didn't use the word transubstantiation, but he uses the word transmutation, and the concept is very similar.
发展出来的词语是后来的事；发展出来的定义是后来的事，但概念是一样的。 The developed word came later; the developed definition came later, but the concept is the same.
这饼和酒经过祝圣祷告，通过转变滋养我们，因为它是道成肉身的耶稣的肉和血。 This bread and wine is prayed over by a prayer of consecration and, by transmutation, nourishes us because it is the flesh and blood of Jesus, who was made flesh.
他继续说，因为这是基督所教导的：「你们应当如此行，为的是记念我。」 He keeps going and says, Because this is what Christ taught: 'This do in remembrance of me.'
顺便说一下，这是祭司的语言；这是礼仪的语言。 By the way, that's priestly language; it's liturgical language.
这不仅仅意味着记住我。 It doesn't mean just remember me.
这是基督建立新约。 This is Christ setting up a new covenant.
所以早期教会相信洗礼不仅仅是一个象征；他们相信圣餐远不止是一个象征。 So the early Church believed that baptism was much more than a symbol; they believed that the Eucharist was much more than a symbol.
好吧，为什么是公教会？ Okay, well, why Catholicism?
为什么是化质说？ Why transubstantiation?
为什么不是属灵的同在？ Why not a spiritual presence?
关于这一点：如果你读过圣奥古斯丁写的任何东西——很多时候，新 教徒会把圣奥古斯丁看作是，这是我们的圣人；他和我们在一起。 Some things about this: if you would read anything St. Augustine wrote—many times, Protestants will look to St. Augustine as, This is our saint; he's with us.
更仔细地阅读他的作品。 Read him more carefully.
阅读圣奥古斯丁自己的《信心与行为》，你会看到他的称义教义。 Read St. Augustine's own Faith and Works, and you'll see his doctrine of justification.
这不是浸信会的教义；这不是路德宗的教义；这不是改革宗的教义。 It is not a Baptist doctrine; it's not a Lutheran doctrine; it's not a Reformed doctrine.
圣奥古斯丁完全、深深地、百分之百是天主教徒。 St. Augustine was thoroughly, deeply, 100% Catholic.
现在，有些事情在他那个时代还没有定义，后来才出现， 但根据当时在神学上已经定义的内容，他是完全赞同的。 Now, some of the things hadn't been defined in his time that came about later, but by what was defined at the time theologically, he was all in.
读读他的《信心与行为》；它可能会改变你的想法。 Read his book on Faith and Works; it might change your mind.
如果你是一个改革宗的人，至少你会不再把他视为你的英雄。 If you are a Reformed person, at least you'll stop looking to him to be your hero.
他绝对相信洗礼重生。 He definitely believed in baptismal regeneration.
我和一些虔诚的改革宗人士——加尔文主义的基督 徒交谈过，我会问，嘿，你们为什么给孩子施洗？ I've talked to some good, devout Reformed people—Calvinist Christians—and I'll say, Hey, why do you baptize your children?
嗯，因为圣经在这一点上有点不清楚。 Well, because the Scriptures are a little unclear.
我们在新约中看到每一个人悔改归向神的例子，但那些例子都是成年人做决定并受洗。 We see every instance in the New Testament of somebody repenting and turning to God, but those instances are adults making decisions and being baptized.
所以我们没有看到孩子受洗，但是当我们看传统时，我们看到圣奥古斯丁给孩子施洗。 So we don't see that children are baptized, but then we look to tradition and we see St. Augustine baptizing children.
好吧，读读圣奥古斯丁关于洗礼的著作。 Okay, well, read St. Augustine on baptism.
他相信洗礼赦免了我们从亚当那里继承的原罪。 He believes that baptism remits the original sin we inherit from Adam.
他相信洗礼重生。 He believes in baptismal regeneration.
顺便说一下，路德也非常重视洗礼。 By the way, Luther was pretty big on baptism too.
所以如果你是浸信会、改革宗、非宗派类型的人，路德认为你需要受洗才能得救。 So if you're a Baptist, Reformed, non-denominational type person, Luther thought you needed to be baptized to be saved.
坦白说，因为他说洗礼不是一种行为。 Frankly, because he said baptism isn't a work.
他说，那是一种行为。 He said, That's a work.
告诉马丁·路德——提出唯独信心的人——他会说洗礼不是一种行为；你需要受洗。 Tell Martin Luther—the guy who came up with sola fide—he would say baptism isn't a work; you need to be baptized.
这是基督教在现代世界之前的普遍立场。 This is the universal position of Christianity until the modern world.
为什么？ Why?
再次把它们放在一起：现代世界将一切都简化为物质实体；它是还原论的。 Putting it all together again: the modern world reduces everything to its material substance; it's reductionist.
我认为，每一派的许多基督徒的头脑中都有如此多的世俗和物质主义的观念，这些 观念是我们从文化中继承的，从文化中吸收的，以至于我们已经部分成为非信徒。 I think so many Christians of every stripe have so many secular and materialistic ideas in our minds that we've inherited from culture, that we've absorbed from culture, that we're already partially non-believers.
我们已经部分是无神论者，部分是世俗主义者。 We're already partially atheists, partially secularists.
我们可能认为神存在于遥远的某个地方，也许吧，但世界大部分只是物质 ，这就是我们中许多人生活的方式——不是在古代或中世纪的世界里。 We might think God exists far away somewhere, maybe, but the world is mostly just matter, and that's kind of how we live our lives—many of us—not in the ancient or medieval world.
有一件艺术品我想给你看；它在另一个视频中。 There's a piece of art I'd like to show you; it's in another video.
这件艺术品展示了柏拉图知道的、亚里士多德知道的 精神领域、超越领域，以及我们生活的物质领域。 This art shows the spiritual realm, the transcendent realm that Plato knew about, that Aristotle knew about, and the physical realm in which we live.
它表明，因为基督，我们知道它们是相连的。 It shows that because of Christ, we know that they're connected.
基督教的世界观一直是圣事性的——这些神圣的奥秘，借此神因为爱 你和我而突破进入我们的物质宇宙，与我们同在，拯救我们脱离自己 、脱离我们的自私、脱离我们的自以为是、脱离我们的罪恶和绝望。 The Christian worldview has always been sacramental—these sacred mysteries by which God broke through into our material universe out of love for you and me, to be with us, to rescue us from ourselves, from our selfishness, from our self-righteousness, from our sin, our despair.
他爱你，他突破了那一切。 He loves you, and he broke through that.
因为神道成肉身，来到这个物质领域与你同在，与我们一同受苦，为 我们死，又为我们复活，击败死亡给我们希望——我接受这一点。 Because of the incarnation of God, who came into this material realm to be with you, to suffer with us, to die for us, and to rise again for us, breaking death back to give us hope—I accept that.
所以我知道宇宙不是这样运作的；宇宙的模型不是物质的；而是有神论的。 And so I knew that the universe doesn't work; the model of the cosmos is not the material one; it's the theistic one.
世界不仅仅只有物质。 There's more to the world than just matter.
物质并不坏，但它与超越的事物相连。 Matter's not bad, but it's connected to the transcendent.
一些常识性的例子：美。 Some common sense examples: beauty.
这个世界上有真正的美——瀑布，詹姆斯·韦伯太空望远镜送回给我们的图像。 There is real beauty in this world—a waterfall, what the James Webb Space Telescope is sending us back.
它是美丽的，不仅仅是因为我进化到认为它对我有益，而是因 为我可以坐在那里惊叹于贝多芬的美、这个日落或这个瀑布。 It's beautiful, not just because I'm evolved to think it's beneficial to me, but because I can sit there in awe of the beauty of Beethoven, or this sunset, or this waterfall.
我知道我的妻子爱我，这在我的生命中一直是一种救赎的恩典。 I know that my wife loves me, and it's been a saving grace in my life.
当我看到我的孩子时，我爱他们。 When I see my children, I love them.
这不仅仅是级联的神经元。 This is not just cascading neurons.
我的神经元在级联，但我爱他们。 My neurons are cascading, but I love them.
那是一种超越的、非物质的东西，与物质事物相连。 That's a transcendent, immaterial thing that's connected to the physical thing.
我爱他们，他们也爱我。 I love them, and they love me.
我的母亲一直爱我，这在我的生命中一直是一种救赎的恩典。 My mother always loved me, and it's been a saving grace in my life.
唯物主义无法解释这一点。 Materialism can't account for that.
它必须将其简化为物理组成部分——级联的神经元、化学物质——仅此而已。 It has to reduce it to its physical components—cascading neurons, chemicals—and that's all it is.
爱不止如此；美不止如此；美德不止如此；权利不止如此；人的尊严和道德价值不止如此。 Love is more; beauty is more; virtue is more; rights are more; human dignity and moral worth are more.
这就是有神论的世界观，我认为公教会基督教使之变得有些合理。 That's the theistic worldview that I think Catholic Christianity made somewhat sensible.
奥古斯丁说：圣事是一种包含它所表示的恩典的物质事物。 Augustine said this: a sacrament is a physical thing that contains the grace it signifies.
它是超越的事物与物质的相遇。 It's a transcendent meeting physical.
洗礼是什么？ What is baptism?
它只是魔法水吗？ Is it just magic water?
不是。洗礼是什么？ No. What is baptism?
洗礼在施洗约翰之前、在基督之前就已经是一种实践。 Baptism was a practice before John the Baptist, before Christ.
洗礼是一种仪式性的洁净，baptizo这个词可以意味着浸没。 Baptism was a ritual cleansing, and the word baptizo can mean to immerse.
但实际上，浸信会过于专注于浸没的部分，有时可能会忽略更大的图景。 But really, the Baptists get so caught up in the immersion part that they might miss sometimes the bigger picture.
它是一种洗涤；它是一种洁净。 It's a washing; it's a cleansing.
但你们已经洗净了，不是因我们所行的义，乃是照他的怜悯。 But ye are washed, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy.
他说这是借着重生的洗，指的是以色列旧约中的洗濯盆。 He said it's by the washing of regeneration, referring to the Old Testament laver in Israel.
现在，有一些——如果你是犹太人，请原谅我的发音——洗礼池。 Right now, there are— forgive my mispronunciation if you're a Jewish person—mikvahs.
它们是浴池，字面意思是古代世界的遗留物，犹太人会在其中进行这些仪式性的洁净。 They are baths, literally left over from the ancient world, in which the Jews would take these ritual cleansings.
早期的基督徒会在那里为人施洗。 The early Christians would baptize people in those.
这是一种仪式性的洗涤，但因为基督，它不仅仅是水。 It's a ritual washing, but because of Christ, it's not just water.
它是超越的；它是物质的。 It's the transcendent; it's the physical.
在亚当里，我们都死了；在基督里，我们都活了。 In Adam, we all die; in Christ, we're all made alive.
我们被洗净；我们被洁净。 We're washed; we're cleansed.
你说：「这符合圣经吗？」 You say, Is that scriptural?
这就是所有早期基督徒的信仰。 That's what all the early Christians believed.
J.N.D.凯利说：「洗礼一直被认为是赦免罪过的。」 J.N.D. Kelly says that baptism was always taken to remit sins.
我可以给你读很多关于洗礼的引文。 I could read you so many quotes from this about baptism.
它被认为是进入新约以赦免原罪的入口。 It's taken to be entry into the New Covenant to remit original sins.
那么，十字架上的强盗呢？ Now, what about the thief on the cross?
这就是浸信会所说的。 That's what a Baptist is saying.
那些从未受洗但接受基督为主的人呢？ What about people who were never baptized but accepted Christ as Lord?
他们不在地狱里。 They're not in hell.
神给了我们这种方式——这些圣事——来赐给我们恩典，但他不受它们的约束。 God has given us this way—these sacraments—in which to give us grace, but he's not bound by them.
他是神。 He's God.
所以如果有人悔改并相信福音，却从未到达洗礼池，他不会让他们下地狱。 So if someone repents and believes the Gospel and never makes it to the baptismal font, he's not going to let them go to hell.
神从不不公平。 God is never unfair.
我个人的观点，基于罗马书第2章，是我对人有希望—— 美洲印第安人，那些在内心回避真理、神和良善的人。 My personal opinion, based on Romans 2, is that I have hope for people—the Native American Indians, those who shun truth and God and goodness in their heart.
我深深地为他们担忧，但那些生活在基督教世界之外，寻求真 理、良善和美德的人——罗马书第2章，我对他们有希望。 I'm deeply concerned for them, but those who lived outside of the Christian world who sought truth and goodness and virtue—Romans chapter 2, I have hope for them.
神从不不公平，即使对十字架上的强盗，即使对 那个大概相信福音并渴望受洗但从未做到的人。 God is never unfair, not even to the thief on the cross, not even to the person who presumably believes the Gospel and who would desire to be baptized but never makes it.
然而，新约似乎将洗礼与远不止一个象征联系在一起，所 有早期基督徒都这样认为，因为这种圣事性的世界观。 Yet the New Testament seems to tie baptism with something much more than a symbol, and all the early Christians thought this because of this sacramental worldview.
那圣餐呢？ What about the Lord's Supper?
同样的事情。 The same thing.
这是圣经中帮助我理解这一点的：新约反映了旧约。 Here's what helped me with this in Scripture: the New Testament mirrors the Old Testament.
旧约和新约的书卷——我们在圣经中称之为新约，但实际上它 是基督设立的一个新的约，最终成为汇编在新约中的书卷。 So the books of the Old Covenant and then the New Covenant—we call it the New Testament in the Scriptures, but really it was a new covenant instituted by Christ that eventually became books that were compiled in the New Testament.
旧约和新约——一些写小说的人会谈论最好的书是什么样的，就是当你有所有这些 预示和期望时，最后有一个情节转折，它并没有让你感到惊讶，因为它不是凭空出 现的，而是以一种出乎意料的方式实现了所有那些预示和期望，并给了你更多。 The Old Covenant and the New Covenant—some people who write fiction books will talk about how the best kind of book is when you have all these foreshadowings and expectations, and then in the end, there's a plot twist that doesn't surprise you in the sense that it came out of nowhere, but in the sense that it fulfills all those foreshadowings and those expectations, but in an unexpected way and gives you more.
那就是基督教；那就是基督；那就是圣经。 That is Christianity; that is Christ; that is the Bible.
有些人倾向于认为新约废除了旧约，废除了律法。 Some people tend to think that the New Testament abolishes the Old Testament, the law.
有那么一刻，我有点想也许这些旧约中迷信的古人——不是的。 For a moment, I sort of thought maybe these superstitious ancient people in the Old Testament—no.
所有这些事情，逾越节的晚餐——基督设立了一个新的逾越节。 All these things, the Passover meal—Christ instituted a new Passover.
他在逾越节晚餐，最后的晚餐上说，他擘开这个，但他说他用自己的血与你立新约。 He said at the Passover meal, the Last Supper, he broke this, but he says a new covenant he's making with you in his own blood.
他擘开饼说：「这是我的身体。」 He broke the bread and said, This is my body.
他擘开饼说：「这是我的身体」，又拿起杯来说：「这是我的血。」 He broke the bread and said, This is my body, and he took the wine and said, This is my blood.
这是用我的血所立的新约。 It's the new covenant in my blood.
现在，现代人可能会忽略这一点，但每个人都知道主的晚餐，圣餐，是新约的逾越节晚餐。 Now, the modern person might miss over that, but everyone knew that the Lord's Supper, the Eucharist, was the Passover meal of the New Testament.
这是新约的筵席，这就是为什么保罗在哥林多前书 中说，基督，我们的逾越节羔羊，已经被献祭了。 This is the feast of the New Testament, and that's why Paul in 1 Corinthians says, Christ, our Paschal Lamb, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed.
因此，我们不再需要任何筵席。 Therefore, we don't need any more feasts.
基督，我们的逾越节羔羊，已经被献祭了；所以，让我们守这个节期——新约的筵席。 Christ, our Paschal Lamb, has been sacrificed; therefore, let us keep the feast—the feast of the New Covenant.
你看到保罗在新约中写了罗马书、加拉太书、歌罗西书。 You've got Paul in the New Testament writing in Romans, Galatians, Colossians.
他完全是犹太人，他引用了所有这些旧约中的期望和盼望，并将它们带了进来。 He is thoroughly Jewish, and he's quoting all these expectations and hopes from the Old Testament and bringing them in.
所以在罗马书中，我想是第6章，他引用了申命记。 So in Romans, I think it's chapter 6, he's quoting Deuteronomy.
现在，在你的灵修中，可能很容易只读罗马书而 忘记申命记，但他是从申命记中引入他的神学。 Now, it might be easy in your devotions just to read Romans and forget about Deuteronomy, but he's importing his theology from Deuteronomy.
申命记说了什么？ What does Deuteronomy say?
他引入了这样的盼望：有一天，在割礼中，神不仅会割除肉体，他还会割除心。 He's importing the hope that one day, in the circumcision, God would not only circumcise the flesh; he would circumcise the heart.
有一天，正如先知所说，神会挪去我们的石心，赐给我们肉心。 That one day, God would take away our heart of stone, as the prophet said, and give us a heart of flesh.
有一天，在玛拉基书中，世界各地的外邦人都要奉他的名烧香——不仅 仅是犹太人——但有一天，神要以比犹太人更大的方式实现这预示。 And that one day, in Malachi, Gentiles around the world would offer incense to his name—not just Jews—but one day, the foreshadowing that God would fulfill in a greater way than the Jews had.
他们所拥有的是宝贵的，但神要以更大的方式恢复全人类，不仅仅是物质的东 西，而是更深层次的东西——包含属灵实际、圣事性超越实际的物质事物。 What they had was valuable, but in a greater way, God is going to restore all of humanity, and not just with physical things, but with deeper things—physical things that contain a spiritual reality, a sacramental, transcendent reality.
你说，是的，这符合圣经吗？ You say, Yeah, is that scriptural?
非常，非常符合。 Deeply, deeply.
例如，在基督所设立的新约中，保罗在歌罗西书第2章中说了什么 ？他这样陈述基督：因为神本性一切的丰盛都有形有体地居住在基 督里面，你们在他里面也得了丰盛。他是各执政掌权者的元首。 For example, in the New Covenant that Christ instituted, what does Paul say in Colossians chapter 2? He states this about Christ: In whom the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have come to fullness in him, who is the head of every ruler and authority.
你们在他里面也受了不是人手所行的割礼，乃是基督使 你们脱去肉体情欲的割礼。你们既受洗与他一同埋葬。 In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ, when you were buried with him in baptism.
保罗明确地说，在基督所设立的新约中，保罗以 犹太人的思维，将此视为基督新律法的割礼。 Paul explicitly says that in the New Covenant Christ instituted, Paul, thinking as a Jew, sees this as the circumcision of the new law of Christ.
正如保罗所说，在新约中，基督的割礼就是洗礼。 As Paul says, in the New Covenant, the circumcision of Christ is baptism.
现在，他正在思考，就像在罗马书中一样，申命记第30章。在罗马书第10章中 ，当他引用时，保罗说：这道离你不远，正在你口里，在你心里，使你可以遵行。 Now, he's thinking, as he is in Romans, of Deuteronomy chapter 30. In Romans 10, when he's quoting, Paul says, The word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.
那是罗马书10:8。他是在引用申命记。 That's Romans 10:8. Well, he's quoting Deuteronomy.
申命记说了什么？ What does Deuteronomy say?
你被赶到天涯海角，从那里耶和华你的神必将你招聚回来，从那里他必领你回来。 Even if you were exiled by the ends of the world, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will bring you back.
神要恢复你。 God wants to restore you.
耶和华你的神必将你心里的污秽除掉。 Moreover, the Lord your God will circumcise your heart.
这是歌罗西书第2章。你看，新约作者看到了旧约的应验。 This is Colossians 2. See, the New Testament writers saw the fulfillment of the Old Testament.
它预示着某些事情，但其实现的方式比任何人想象的都要伟大。 It's foreshadowing something, but in a greater way, it is fulfilled than anyone could have imagined.
保罗在罗马书中说，嘿，我心里所愿的，弟兄们，是要以色列人得救，得以复兴。 Paul in Romans is saying, Hey, my heart's desire, brethren, is for Israel to be restored, to be saved.
但他们要如何复兴呢？ But how are they going to be restored?
如你所知，以色列被巴比伦人、亚述人征服——他们已经消失了。 As you know, Israel was conquered by the Babylonians, the Assyrians—they're gone.
那些支派已经不在了。 Those tribes are gone.
他们在哪里？ Where are they at?
神要如何恢复他们？ How is God going to restore them?
对保罗来说，他说他们分散在世界各地，我们要带着福音去到他们那里。 For Paul, he's saying they're scattered around the world, and we're going to them with the Gospel.
在罗马书中，神要恢复以色列，就像他恢复人类一样，因 为这是情节的转折：弥赛亚不仅仅是来恢复以色列的。 God is going to restore Israel in Romans as he restores humanity because this is the plot twist: the Messiah is not just here to restore Israel.
我们的人性已经被玷污；我们的种族破碎堕落。 Our humanity has been tarnished; our race is broken and fallen.
我们无法拯救自己，但基督以他的良善，为全人类提供了一条得以复兴的道路。 We can't save ourselves, but Christ, in his goodness, offers a way for all humanity to be restored.
这就是为什么在新约和早期基督徒中，这些圣事——这些属灵的实 际——与物质联系在一起，因为我们是属灵和物质的受造之物。 That's why in the New Testament and in the early Christians, these sacraments—these spiritual realities—are attached to the physical because we're spiritual and physical creatures.
神将这赐给了我们。 God gave this to us.
这需要消化很多，但请深入研究这一点。 That's a lot to take in, but please look into that.
请阅读圣奥古斯丁的作品，请阅读伊格那丢的作品，请阅读爱任纽的 《反异端》，阅读游斯丁的《对话录》——游斯丁写的任何东西。 Please read St. Augustine, please read Ignatius, please read Irenaeus against Heresies, read Justin Martyr's Dialogue—anything Justin Martyr wrote.
这些不会花你很长时间。 These things won't take you long.
读《黑马牧人书》。 Read The Shepherd of Hermas.
所有这些，你会开始看到这是一个圣事性的世界观。 All these things, and you'll begin to see this is a sacramental worldview.
那么，这不是靠行为得救吗？ Well, isn't that salvation by works?
非常明确地说，不是。 Profoundly, no.
我的许多基督徒朋友——这是新教徒和传统公教会之间最大的分歧点。 So many of my Christian friends—here's the biggest point of disconnect between Protestants and the traditional Catholic Church.
这就是所谓的称义教义。 It's something called the doctrine of justification.
这是我研究历史基督教时最大的障碍。 This was my biggest hang-up when I was studying historic Christianity.
在17世纪之前，我的许多浸信会朋友会追溯到19世纪 ；我的一些新教徒朋友会追溯到17世纪或16世纪。 Before the 1600s, many of my Baptist friends will read back to the 1800s; a few of my Protestant friends will read back to the 1600s or 1500s.
有趣的是，他们不会读到更早之前。 It's interesting, too—they won't read much beyond that.
但基督教已经存在了2000年。 But Christianity has been around for 2,000 years.
我们应该根据早期基督教来阅读圣经。 It would behoove us to read the Scriptures in light of early Christianity.
所以当我研究拿撒勒人耶稣生平的证据时，我试图在他们的语境中 理解古代作家——异教徒、犹太人、基督徒——这有助于我理解。 So when I was studying the evidence for the life of Jesus of Nazareth, I tried to take ancient writers in their context—pagan, Jewish, Christian—and that helped me to understand.
如果你在神学院上解经学课程，解经学基本上意味着如何解释文献，如何解释圣经。 If you take a hermeneutics class in seminary, hermeneutics means basically how to interpret documents, how to interpret the Scriptures.
他们会告诉你，你需要在原始语境中看这些事情：最初的听众是谁？ They'll tell you that you need to see these things in their original context: Who was the original audience?
原作者是谁？ Who was the original author?
作者和听众会如何理解这些事情？ How would the author and audience have understood these things?
我告诉你，如果你这样做，非宗派的单纯基督教只会开始分崩离析——不是分崩离 析，而是你开始看到我们有一个简化的、现代化的、不那么有味道的基督教版本。 I'm telling you, if you do that, the non-denominational mere Christianity only begins to sort of fall apart—not fall apart, but you begin to see that we have a reduced, modernized, less flavorful version of Christianity.
我们可以谈论这个几个小时。 We could talk about this for just hours and hours.
这是历史基督教和新教改革者之间的关键分歧点： 许多新教徒是虔诚的基督徒，公教会承认这一点。 Here's the key point of difference between historic Christianity and the Protestant Reformers: many Protestants are devout Christian people, which the Catholic Church recognizes.
他们中的一些人不喜欢权威，部分原因是一些腐 败，这被夸大了——出售赎罪券，诸如此类。 Some of them didn't like authority, some of it because of some of the corruption, which has been exaggerated—the selling of indulgences, things like this.
实际上，那是公教会——我读过主教和大主教的文件—— 他们试图在罗马建造圣彼得大教堂，一个美丽的地方。 Well, really what that was is the Catholic Church—I've read the documents from the bishops and the archbishops—they were trying to build St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, a beautiful place.
所以他们会做的是以慈善的名义筹款。 So what they would do is raise money as charity.
赎罪券——教会从未批准出售赎罪券，但他们所做的，它被利用了，我 认为这并不十分普遍，但确实发生了——就是如果你犯了罪，是的，你 罪的永恒后果是基督为你付出的，但你罪的现世后果——你需要纠正。 An indulgence—the Church never approved the selling of indulgences, but what they did do, and it was taken advantage of, I don't think it was terribly widespread, but it did happen—is that if you commit a sin, yes, the eternal consequence for your sin is paid for by Christ, but the temporal consequence of your sin—you need to make that right.
这就像物理治疗。 It's like physical therapy.
我在海军陆战队有过肩伤；不太严重。 I had a shoulder injury in the Marine Corps; it wasn't great.
为了让伤口愈合，我必须做物理治疗；我必须重建那块肌肉。 To make that wound heal, I had to do physical therapy; I had to rebuild that muscle.
赎罪券、补赎的概念，所有这些都意味着像属灵的物理治疗。 The idea of indulgences, penance, all these things is meant to be like spiritual physical therapy.
如果你冤枉了某人，神会原谅你，但你仍然需要在这个世界上纠正这一点。 If you wrong someone, God will forgive you, but you still need to make that right in this world.
在这件事上你也可能伤害了自己的灵魂；你需要纠正这一点。 You also might have wounded your soul in this; you need to make that right.
如果你剥夺了某人，就施舍给慈善机构；如果你回避神，就祈祷等等。在马丁 ·路德时代，有一种方式是你可以以慈善的名义为建造圣彼得大教堂捐款。 If you deprive someone, give to charity; if you shun God, pray, etc. Well, one way in which that was carried out at the time of Martin Luther was you could give, in the sense of charity, to the building of St. Peter's Basilica.
他们会说，是啊，你死后在炼狱中度过的这段时间…… They'd say, Yeah, well, this time that you spend after death in purgatory...
顺便说一下，我读过的关于炼狱最好的书是圣公会的C.S.路易斯写的。 By the way, the best book on purgatory I've read is by C.S. Lewis, who was an Anglican.
到目前为止对此最好的解释是《天堂与地狱的婚姻》。 The best explanation of this so far is called The Great Divorce.
我们稍后再谈这个，但炼狱不是第二个地狱。 We'll talk about that later, but purgatory isn't a second hell.
炼狱不是第二次机会。 Purgatory isn't a second chance.
如果你作为一个基督徒死去，得救并与神和好，但 神的同在是圣洁的，你需要被塑造得适合天堂。 If you die a Christian, saved and right with God, but God's presence is holy, you need to be made fit for heaven.
这不一定需要是一段时间——谁知道它是什么？——但是 This doesn't necessarily need to be a duration of time—who knows what it is?—but
这只是我们被塑造得适合神同在的一部分。 it's simply part of us being made fit for the presence of God.
如果你在那里，你不会下地狱等等。你不必被买出来或诸如此类 的事情，但在这个被塑造完全的过程中，这就是圣事的作用。 If you're there, you're not going to hell, etc. You don't have to be bought out of there or anything like that, but in this process of being made whole, that's what the sacraments are for.
我们稍后再谈这个。 We'll come back to that.
你可以施舍给慈善机构，如果你们能在这个困难时期 为建造这座巨大、昂贵的大教堂捐款，那就太好了。 You can give to charity, and it would be great if you guys could give to the building of this giant, expensive cathedral in the middle of this troubled time.
我们在为这件事付款时遇到了麻烦。 We're having trouble paying for this thing.
马丁·路德似乎不太喜欢意大利，他看到一些领导人奢侈的生活方式。 Martin Luther, who didn't seem to like Italy very much, saw the lavish lifestyles of some of the leaders.
我明白；我想知道为什么一些非常节俭的德国人把 所有的钱都给了意大利人，他看到的是腐败的人。 I get it; I wondered why some of the very frugal German people were giving all their money to the Italians, and what he saw were corrupt people.
你可以读读那些布道。 You can read the sermons.
事实上，我这里有一本书——我现在没带在身上——但它叫《新教改革》。 Actually, I've got a book here—I don't have it on me—but it's called The Protestant Reformation.
它只是围绕新教徒的文件，从路德和他观点的改变，以及公教徒在这个问题上来来回回。 It's just documents surrounding the Protestants, from Luther and his change in views, and the Catholics going back and forth on this.
但有一些传教士夸大了教会的主张，在全国各地兜售赎罪券。 But there were preachers who were exaggerating the Church's claims, going around the country and trying to sell indulgences.
嘿，你可以离开炼狱；你需要奉献你所拥有的一切！ Hey, you can get out of purgatory; you need to give everything you've got!
这种事情——只是夸大其词。 This kind of thing—just exaggerating.
这不是教会的教导，但有那样的传教士，也有一些主教过着奢侈的生活方式。 That's not what the Church taught, but there were preachers like that, and there were some bishops who lived extravagant lifestyles.
所以路德在那里并非完全错误，但当代对那是什么的理解也完全错误。 So Luther wasn't totally wrong there, but also the contemporary understanding of what that was is totally wrong.
这有点像，我认为现在给慈善机构捐款是件好事。 It's sort of like, I think giving to charity now is a good thing.
有慈善机构利用这一点吗？ Are there charities that take advantage of it?
是的。 Yeah.
有在慈善机构工作的人从中渔利吗？ Are there people who work in charities who skim off the top?
有。 Yes.
顺便说一下，我认为在特伦托会议上，教会承认这种情况的发生，并进行了改革。 By the way, I think at the Council of Trent, the Church acknowledged that this was happening, and they reformed.
他们认真对待路德的抱怨，说，你是对的；其中一些是不正当的。 They took Luther's complaints seriously, saying, You're right; some of this is not on the level.
有些人在利用这一点。 Some people are taking advantage of this.
他们试图在宗教改革之前讨论这个问题，但在宗教改革之后 ，在特伦托会议上，公教会对改革者的回应是，你是对的。 They tried to talk about it before the Reformation, but after the Reformation, at the Council of Trent, the Catholic response to the Reformers was, You're right.
如果我没记错的话，他们实际上取消了到处收集赎罪券的人的职位。 If I recall, they actually abolished the position of people going around gathering indulgences.
在第22届会议上，我想是这样，或者是第21届会议上，他们实际上进 行了改革；他们承认了腐败，并试图改革它，这样人们就不能利用它了。 In the 22nd session, I think it is, or the 21st session, they actually reformed; they acknowledged the corruption and tried to reform it so that people couldn't take advantage of it.
所以让我们回到路德的抱怨。 So let's take it back to Luther's complaint.
所有这些都与称义的教义有关：我们如何在神面前被称为义？ All of that is tied to the doctrine of justification: how are we made right before God?
对路德来说，他认为——顺便说一下，当宗教改革开始时，现在我们认为唯 独信心、唯独恩典、唯独圣经是我们从神那里得到启示的唯一无误的方式。 For Luther, he thought—by the way, when the Reformation started, now we think of sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), sola scriptura (Scripture alone) as our only infallible means of revelation from God.
我认为当时，他们并没有真正解决这些实质性原 则；他们只是关心教会试图改革自身的方式。 I think at the time, they didn't really have these material principles worked out; they were just concerned with the way the Church was trying to reform itself.
我不认为路德是…… I don't think Luther was...
我读过很多路德的作品。 I've read a lot of Luther.
我不认为他是…… I don't think he was...
你知道克里斯托弗·希钦斯吗？ You know Christopher Hitchens?
克里斯托弗·希钦斯是一位已故的无神论者；他不幸因癌症去世。 Christopher Hitchens was a late atheist; he passed away sadly of cancer.
克里斯托弗·希钦斯是…… Christopher Hitchens was...
克里斯托弗·希钦斯会抨击宗教；他会攻击公教信仰，攻击公教会。 Christopher Hitchens would blast religion; he'd attack Catholicism, the Catholic Church.
他抱怨基督徒，他支持权利、自由和美德——所有这些东西在我年轻的时候都吸引了我。 He complained about Christians, and he stood for rights, freedom, and virtue—all these things appealed to me when I was younger.
我想，好吧，也许吧。 I thought, Okay, maybe.
但当你研究透了，克里斯托弗·希钦斯有点夸夸其谈。 But when you study it out, Christopher Hitchens was kind of full of hot air.
他可以通过攻击对方、提出所有这些抱怨来赢得辩论，但他的论 点前后矛盾，没有什么实质内容，也没有什么可以作为回报的。 He could win a debate by attacking the person, leveling all these complaints, but he had incoherent arguments, very little substance, and nothing to offer in return.
所以如果你摧毁了这个，你打算提供什么？ So if you tear this down, what are you going to offer?
他什么都没有。 He had nothing.
我有点认为马丁·路德也有点那样。 I kind of think Martin Luther was a little bit of that.
他是一个鲁莽的人，有些骨气，这导致了一些鲁莽。 He was a brash man who had some spine, which led to some brashness.
我理解为什么，但这成了一个权威问题。 I understand why, but it became an issue with authority.
他提出了所有这些抱怨。 He leveled all these complaints.
顺便说一下，他对公教信仰提出的同样抱怨，可以被无神论者翻译成对基督教的抱怨。 By the way, the same complaints he levels against Catholicism could be translated for an atheist to level against Christianity.
如果教宗现在就可以让人离开炼狱，他为什么不这样做？ If the pope could let people out of purgatory right now, why doesn't he do it?
如果神现在就可以治愈每一个生病的孩子，他为什么不这样做？ If God could heal every sick child right now, why doesn't he do it?
你明白我的意思吗？ You see my point?
这些论点对于帮助我们理解困难的事情没有什么帮助。 Those aren't helpful arguments for helping us to make sense of difficult things.
马丁·路德有所有这些抱怨，尽管这些实质性原 则——唯独信心、唯独恩典、唯独圣经等——是 Martin Luther had all these complaints, and even though these material principles—faith alone, grace alone, Scripture alone, etc.—were
后来才被理清的，但这些是宗教改革的正式材料。 hashed out later, these were the formal materials of the Reformation.
顺便说一下，正如历史学家会告诉你的，宗教改革从 未变得有凝聚力；它变成了一个支离破碎的运动。 By the way, as historians will tell you, the Reformation never became cohesive; it became a fragmented movement.
即使围绕这些原则，它也永远不可能有凝聚力；它只是分裂了。 Even around these principles, it could never be cohesive; it just fragmented.
伤口已经愈合，我们是真正的基督徒——浸信会、长 老会——去教堂，寻求神，传讲福音，努力行善。 The wounds have healed over, and we're genuinely Christians—Baptists, Presbyterians—going to church, seeking God, preaching the Gospel, trying to have charity.
伤口已经愈合，但500年前造成的伤害很严重，它从未成为一个有凝聚力的运动。 The wounds have healed over, but the damage done 500 years ago was bad, and it never became a cohesive movement.
历史学家承认这一点。 Historians acknowledge this.
但如果我们回顾过去，试图找出宗教改革的实质原则，因为唯独信心 ，唯独恩典，我认为称义是关键问题，这也是我真正挣扎的地方。 But if we look back and we try to find what was the material principle of the Reformation, because of faith alone, grace alone, I think justification is the key issue, and this is what I really struggled with.
在某个时候，我告诉我的导师、朋友、知己，我看到基督教一直都是圣事性的。 At some point, I told a mentor, a friend of mine, a confidant, I see that Christianity has always been sacramental.
也许我可以成为一名圣公会教徒，找到一个快乐的中间立场。 Maybe I can be an Anglican and find a happy middle ground.
但我真的在称义的教义上挣扎，因为在我看来，更加改革宗的称义观点更符合圣经。 But I really struggle with the doctrine of justification because it seems to me that the more Reformed view of justification is more scriptural.
好的，这就是它的意思。 Okay, here's what that means.
我尽量不太技术性，但基本上，它的意思是：对于 新教改革者来说，我们在基督耶稣里被神称义。 I'll try not to get too technical, but basically, what it means is this: for the Protestant Reformers, we are justified by God in Christ Jesus.
它是这样运作的：有一个技术术语叫法律上的义。 How that works is this: there's a technical term called forensic righteousness.
从本质上说，对于改革者来说，神宣告我们为义。 Essentially, for the Reformers, God declares us righteous.
这是什么意思？ What does that mean?
现在，有些人与我就此争论。 Now, some people have argued with me about this.
宣告性的义是一个技术术语；它并不意味着神只是宣告某事。 Declarative righteousness is a technical term; it doesn't mean that God just declares something.
它的意思基本上是这样的：神在说，你不是有罪的 ，因为拿撒勒人耶稣的外来义，他完全顺服了神。 It means that it's basically like saying this: God is saying, You are not guilty because of the foreign righteousness of Jesus of Nazareth, who obeyed God perfectly.
因为他的义，可以说，我要看他，不看你，我要看他，说：「公义的。」 Because of his righteousness, I'm going to look at him and not you, so to speak, and I'm going to see him and say, 'Righteous.'
我要把那外来的义，以某种法律的方式，应用到你的账上。 I'm going to take that foreign righteousness and sort of, in a legal way, apply it to your account.
这有点像如果你有一百万美元的赤字，你要拿一百万美元，一分不差地应用到你的账户上。 It's sort of like if you have a deficit of a million dollars, you're going to take to the penny a million dollars and apply it to your account.
现在你已经全部还清了；你不是有罪的，尽管你曾经有点有罪。 Now you're fully paid off; you're not guilty, even though you kind of were guilty.
不，我没有从神的恩典和怜悯中看到这一点。 No, I don't see that out of God's grace and mercy.
我真的有点认为那是新约的教导。 I really sort of took that to be the New Testament teaching.
哇！ Wow!
我为此挣扎。 I struggled with this.
事实证明其他人也是如此。 It turns out others have too.
我现在确信，在加拉太书、哥林多书、歌罗西书 、福音书，甚至罗马书中，改教者是错误的。 I am convinced now, in Galatians, Corinthians, Colossians, the Gospels, and even Romans, that the Reformers were incorrect.
他们认为自己是在把基督教信仰带回最初的愿景，回到一 世纪左右、二世纪左右基督教信仰的纯正——绝对不是。 They thought they were returning the Christian faith back to the original vision, the pureness of the Christian faith of the first century or so, second century or so—decidedly not.
现在，阿利斯特·麦格拉思是牛津大学的神学家。 Now, Alister McGrath is an Oxford theologian.
他曾是一个无神论者，后来成为基督徒，我想他学过化学，然后开始教授神学。 He was an atheist who became a Christian, studied chemistry, I think, and then started teaching theology.
这个人真的帮助了我。 The guy really helped me.
他是一位圣公会牧师，写了一本书叫《上帝的公义：基督教称义教义史》。 He's an Anglican minister, and he wrote a book called Justitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification.
他研究历史神学。 He studies historical theology.
他不得不完全修改他的书，因为在某个时候，他意识到自己是错误的，就像我一样。 He had to totally revise his book because somewhere along the way, he realized he was incorrect, as I did.
这是第四版。 This is the fourth edition.
所以发生的事情是，改教者并没有让我们回到最初的 基督教愿景；改教者偏离了最初的历史性称义观。 So what happened was the Reformers didn't return us to the original Christian vision; the Reformers departed from the original historic view of justification.
第一页：新教改革的一个决定性特征是基督教神 学传统的概念和词汇都发生了决定性的转变。 Page one: one of the defining characteristics of the Protestant Reformation is a decisive shift in both the conceptualities and the vocabulary of the Christian theological tradition.
换句话说，他们并没有把这个恢复到原来的样子；他们正在偏离它，我们将会看到。 In other words, they didn't return this to the original; they were departing from it, as we shall see.
直到16世纪，西方神学传统主要将称义理解为通过将内在的义赋予信徒而使之成义。 Until the 16th century, the Western theological tradition understood justification primarily as a making righteous through the impartation of an inherent righteousness to a believer.
我们可以谈论很多这方面的内容；我也许应该制作一个关于这个的视频。 We could talk about this a lot; I should perhaps make a video on this.
这意味着：改教者认为你是有罪的——你是，我也是。 What this means is this: the Reformers thought you're sinful—you are, I am.
你不能拯救自己；你不能。我也不能。你需要神的帮助；你需要，我也需要。 You can't save yourself; you can't. I can't. You need God's help; you do, I do.
在我成为基督徒之前，我无论做多少工作都无法赢得神的恩典或喜悦。 There's no amount of works I can do to earn God's merit or favor before I become a Christian.
在我以这种方式接受神的恩典之前，我无法做任何事情来赢得神对我的爱。 Before I receive God's grace in this way, there is nothing I can do to earn God's love for me.
他爱我。 He loves me.
我无法拯救自己；我了解自己。 I can't save myself; I know me.
如果你诚实，你了解自己。 If you're honest, you know you.
我们需要神的恩典，对吗？ We need God's grace, right?
你无法拯救自己。 You can't save yourself.
顺便说一下，公教会从未这样认为。 By the way, the Catholic Church has never thought this.
改教者说，是的，但因为基督所做的，他会宣告你为义人，本质上在法 庭上说你无罪，然后藉着神的恩典，当你顺服他时，他会使你成圣。 The Reformers said, Yeah, but because of what Christ did, he will declare you a righteous person, essentially in a court saying not guilty, and then by God's grace, he will sanctify you as you submit to him.
这是公教会一直持有的历史基督教观点。 Here's a historic Christian view that the Catholic Church has always held.
所以这对我来说很有趣，阿利斯特·麦格拉思指出了这一点。 So it's interesting to me, and Alister McGrath points this out.
还有其他关于这个的书。 There are other books on this.
有一本关于律法之工的书——基督教最初200年如何看待保罗在新约中所说的 律法之工，指的是犹太律法，几乎总是指旧约律法——以及它如何不能拯救你。 There's a book on the works of the law—how the first 200 years of Christianity saw what Paul meant by works of the law in the New Testament, referring to the Jewish law, almost always referring to the Old Covenant law—and how it can't save you.
这并不是说行为现在可以拯救你，因为它们不能；它们永远不能。 Not to say that works can save you now, because they can't; they never can.
但在特伦托会议上，公教会的观点，为了回应这种宣 告性的观点，只是重申了历史上奥古斯丁的观点。 But the Catholic view at the Council of Trent, in response to this declarative view, simply restated the historic Augustinian view.
他们在最初两个世纪就相信这一点，但在圣奥古斯丁那里，它被定义得更多一些。 They believed it in the first two centuries, but in St. Augustine, it was defined a little bit more.
所以公教会算是半奥古斯丁主义，不是伯拉纠主义。 So the Catholic Church is sort of semi-Augustinian, not Pelagian.
伯拉纠是一个异端，他认为我们没有原罪，因为 我们没有原罪，我们只需做一些好事就可以了。 Pelagius was a heretic who thought that we don't receive original sin, and because we don't have original sin, we can simply just do a bunch of good things and we're good.
如果我们还没有犯罪，我们不需要神恩典的拯救。 We don't need salvation by God's grace if we haven't yet sinned.
传统的基督教观点是，是的，但我们的种族是破碎的。 The traditional Christian view has been, Yeah, but our race is broken.
你生来就是不完整的；你的人性已经被玷污了。 You're born unwhole; your humanity has been tarnished.
你需要神的恩典。 You need God's grace.
这一直是公教会历史上的基督教观点。 That has always been the historic Christian view in the Catholic Church.
所以在特伦托会议上，他们只是回应并重申了这一观点，即称义——我 们如何在神面前被称为义——不仅仅是一个法律上的宣告义，而是基督 ，神，藉着他的恩典，因为基督所做的，会改变你，使你成为义人。 So at the Council of Trent, they simply responded and restated the view that justification—how we're made right before God—is not just a legal declaration of righteousness, but that Christ, God, by his grace, because of what Christ did, will transform you and make you righteous.
你说，我相信那个；我是浸信会的。 You say, I believe that; I'm a Baptist.
这些是新教神学和公教神学之间差异所在的技术术语。 These are the technical terms on which the difference between Protestant theology and Catholic theology resides.
公教会重申，在神的恩典中，你不能靠自己拯救自己。 The Catholics restated that God, in his grace, you can't save yourself on your own.
这都在特伦托会议中。 It's all in the Council of Trent.
你不能靠自己拯救自己。 You cannot save yourself on your own.
如果你认为你只要做一些好事就能赢得神的爱——不，不可能。 If you think you can just do a bunch of good things and earn God's love—nope, not happening.
赢得神的宽恕？ Earn God's forgiveness?
赢得天堂？ Earn heaven?
不，不。 Nope, nope.
没有人做到过。 No one's ever done that.
公教会从未教导过那个。 The Catholic Church has never taught that.
你需要神的恩典，但在历史基督教观点中，救恩是变革性的。 You need God's grace, but salvation in the historic Christian view is transformative.
神的恩典会更新你内在的人；他会改变你。 God's grace will renew your inner man; he will transform you.
你无法赢得那个，但神，基于基督的顺服——承担死亡、罪恶和人性中的所有 黑暗以及每一个黑暗的权势——承担了这一切，并在顺服天父中战胜了它。 You can't earn that, but God, based on the obedience of Christ—taking on death and sin and all the darkness in humanity and every principality of darkness—took it on and beat it in obedience to the Father.
根据他的功德，不是我的，他的功德，这是根据公教会的教导：你可以得到宽恕和救恩。 And based on his merit, not mine, his merit, this is according to the Catholic Church: you can have forgiveness and salvation.
他将这恩典赐给你，作为一种使人成圣、更新的恩典 ，它会更新你内在的人，使你成为你应该成为的人。 And he offers this grace to you as a sanctifying, renewing grace that will renew your inner man and make you the person that you're supposed to be.
你想成为一个好父亲吗？ You want to help being a good father?
你想戒掉色情吗？ You want to help getting off pornography?
你想以你应该爱她的方式来爱你的妻子吗？ You want to help loving your wife the way you're supposed to love her?
你想成为一个好邻居、好公民、有爱心的人和好儿子吗？ You want to help being a neighbor and a citizen, charitable, and a good son?
神会赐给你恩典，帮助你。 God will give you grace and help you.
你的人性被玷污了，但神的恩典会帮助你成长为一个有爱心和慈善的人。 Your humanity is tarnished, but God's grace will help you grow into the person who loves and has charity.
他会挪去你的石心，赐给你一颗肉心，他会赐给你力量——不仅仅是宣告你 为义，如同无罪，而是远不止如此——他会藉着他的恩典帮助你成为义人。 He'll take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, and he will give you the power—not just to declare you righteous as in not guilty, but much more than that—he'll help make you righteous by his grace.
即使当你正在成为义人时，那也是神的恩典在你里面工作。 And even when you're becoming righteous, it's God's grace working in you.
我凭自己的肉体无法遵守基督的律法；我需要神的恩典来做到这一点，你也是。 I can't keep the law of Christ in my flesh on my own; I need God's grace for that, and so do you.
但公教会教导说，当你悔改你的罪，相信基督，然后受洗时，你就被带入了新约。 But the Catholic Church teaches that when you receive, when you repent of your sins, believe on Christ, and then you're baptized, you're brought into the New Covenant.
正如彼得所说，你们各人要悔改，奉耶稣基督的名受洗，叫你们的罪得赦 ，你就被带入新约，如保罗在罗马书和歌罗西书中所说——新约的割礼。 Just as Peter says, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, for the remission of sins, you're brought into the New Covenant, as Paul says in Romans and Colossians—the circumcision of the New Testament.
然后，通过圣事，当我们顺服神时，我们在圣事中将我们的意志顺服于神。 Then, through the sacraments, as we submit to God, we submit our wills to God in the sacraments.
他赐给你真正的恩典，改变你。 He’s giving you real grace, transforming you.
这就是新教观点的不同：称义和成圣是分开的。 And that's the difference in the Protestant view: there's a separation between justification and sanctification.
在历史基督教中，神的恩典是使人成圣的；它在你里面工作， 当你将你的意志顺服于神并接受他的恩典时，它就改变你。 In historic Christianity, God's grace is sanctifying; it's working inside of you, transforming you as you submit your will to God and receive his grace.
这就是特伦托会议的教导。 This is what Trent teaches.
所以我的许多浸信会朋友已经赞同一段话，是的， 但它说如果你相信唯独信心，你就是被咒诅的。 So a lot of my Baptist friends are already jumping on board with a passage that says, Yeah, but it says if you believe that faith alone, you're anathema.
好吧，让我们仔细阅读这一段。 Well, let's read this carefully.
这里有几点：首先，特伦托会议有趣地承认，在一些神职人员中，在欧 洲中世纪晚期、文艺复兴早期的教会中，有一些神职人员是无知的。 A couple of things here: first of all, the Council of Trent interestingly acknowledged that in some of the clergy, there were pockets of the clergy in the late medieval, early Renaissance churches in Europe that were ignorant.
他们决定，嘿，我们真的要投资教育神职人员。 They decided, Hey, we've got to really invest money in educating the clergy.
这是教会的低谷，这是真的。 This is a low point in the Church, and that's true.
我认为这甚至反映在宗教改革中；人们只是不理解某些事情。 I think that's even reflected in the Reformation; people just didn't understand certain things.
路德，只是顺便说一下，他认为他抱怨——我想是在《教会的 巴比伦囚虏》中——他认为罗马公教会类似于巴比伦帝国。 Martin Luther, just as a side note, thought that he complained—I think it was in The Babylonian Captivity of the Church—which he thinks the Roman Catholic Church resembles the Babylonian Empire.
奴役基督的教会，我们必须解放它——他是这样认为的。 Enslaving Christ's Church, and we've got to liberate it—he thought that.
我想就是在那本书中，他说把圣餐或弥撒称为祭祀是可憎的，不符合圣经。 I think it was in that book where he says that talking about the Eucharist or the Mass as a sacrifice is abominable and it's not scriptural.
哦，我的天哪！ Oh my lands!
圣经中关于圣餐的语言是深深的祭祀性的。 The language of Scripture about the Lord's Supper is deeply sacrificial.
基督是我们新的大祭司；他是我们的逾越节羔羊；他已经被献祭了。 Christ is our new high priest; he's our Paschal Lamb; he’s been sacrificed.
希伯来书——整本书——基督自己正在举行逾越节筵席，一个祭 祀性的礼仪性餐点，他说，你们应当如此行，为的是记念我。 Hebrews—the whole book—Christ himself is having a Passover feast, a sacrificial liturgical meal, and he's saying, Just do this in memory of me.
这是一个说「纪念」的术语。 That’s a term saying commemorate.
这不仅仅是说要记住我；这是一个礼仪术语。 It's not just saying remember me; it's a liturgical term.
他是我们新的大祭司。 He’s our new high priest.
我认为马丁·路德不理解这些事情。 I don't think Martin Luther understood these things.
如果你读过任何早期基督徒关于他们的教会礼拜的著作，他 们肯定认为弥撒、圣餐、主的晚餐是一种祭祀性的餐点。 If you read any of the early Christians about their church services, they certainly thought of the Mass, the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper as a sacrificial meal.
马丁·路德只是不理解这一点。 Martin Luther just didn't understand that.
但是许多公教神职人员没有受到适当的教育，特伦托会议承认这一点。 But so many of the Catholic clergy were just not educated properly, and Trent acknowledges that.
顺便说一下，在特伦托会议中，不要将其与《特伦托会 议教理问答》混淆；这是《特伦托会议法规与法令》。 By the way, in the Council of Trent, don't confuse this with the Catechism of the Council of Trent; this is the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent.
好的，关于特伦托会议的一些事情：它谈到了称义，而且相当美好。 All right, so some things about the Council of Trent: it's talking about justification, and it's pretty beautiful.
它回应并承认路德和加尔文的真理，但也回应错误并发出咒诅。 It's responding to and acknowledging the truth in Luther and Calvin, but also responding to the errors and issuing an anathema.
现在，咒诅并不意味着我自动认为你要下地狱。 Now, anathema doesn't mean automatically, I think you're going to hell.
这就像教会纪律。 It's like church discipline.
这就像是，嘿，这些人正在偏离我们一直坚持的东西。 It's like, Hey, these guys are departing from what we've always held.
你必须停止。 You've got to stop.
我们警告过你，一再警告你。 We've warned you and warned you.
你必须停止，各位，要警惕这一点。 You've got to stop, and folks, be wary of this.
这个教义偏离了历史基督教信仰，这是历史学家和神学家开始意识到的。 This doctrine is a departure from the historic Christian faith, which is what historians and theologians are starting to realize.
这让一些人感到不舒服，因为他们是新教徒，意识到宗教改革是一种离开，而不是回归。 This makes some folks uncomfortable because they are Protestants realizing the Reformation was a departure, not a return.
所以他说，特伦托会议指出，与加尔文不同，我们确实有自由 意志，但它的力量被削弱了，因为它的力量是向下弯曲的。 So he says that Trent states that we do have free will, unlike Calvin, but it's weakened as its powers are downward bent.
然而，它绝对没有被消灭。 However, by no means is it extinguished.
因为原罪，我们的意志被罪玷污，但没有被消灭。 Because of original sin, our wills are tainted by sin but not extinguished.
你仍然有意志。 You still have a will.
基督为所有人而死；救赎不是有限的。 Christ died for all; the atonement isn't limited.
如果你是一个神学家，基督为每个人而死——3000年前的美洲原住民、犹太人、外 邦人、罗马异教徒、希腊人、亚里士多德——基督为所有人而死，不仅仅是一些人。 If you're a theologian, Christ died for everyone—the Native American 3,000 years ago, the Jew, the Gentile, the Roman pagan, the Greeks, Aristotle—Christ died for all, not just some.
但他说：进一步宣布，在成年人中，称义的开始必须从神藉着 耶稣基督预先赐下的恩典开始，没有他们自己的任何功德。 But he says this: It is furthermore declared that in adults, the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, without any merits on their part.
他们被呼召。 They are called.
所以特伦托会议试图肯定并明确表示，你甚至不能靠自己回应神并来到他面前寻求救恩。 So Trent is trying to affirm and make it very clear that you can't even respond to God and come to him for salvation on your own.
这是基督预先赐下的恩典在你心中工作。 It is the predisposing grace of Christ working in your heart.
神赐给你恩典，帮助你来到他面前，没有你自己的任何功德。 God gives you the grace and assists you to come to him without any merit on your own.
你不是赚取救恩，从这个意义上说，你不是靠自己的努力进入天堂。 You don't earn salvation; you don't work your way to heaven in that sense.
你自由地赞同并配合神的恩典。 You freely assent to and cooperate with God's grace.
现在，这里谈了很多：罪人藉着在基督耶稣里的救赎，因神的恩典被称为义。 Now, it talks about quite a bit here: the sinner is justified by God by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
它谈到称义，不仅仅是罪的赦免——新教改革者所认为的，高层浸信会和非宗派的弟兄 姐妹所认为的——而且还是通过自愿接受恩典和恩赐，使内在的人得以成圣和更新，由 此一个不义的人变成义人，从仇敌变成朋友——神的朋友，根据永生的盼望成为后嗣。 It talks about the justification, which is not only a remission of sins—what the Protestant Reformers think, what high Baptists and non-denominational brothers and sisters think—but also the sanctification and renewal of the inner man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts, whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend—a friend of God and an heir according to the hope of life everlasting.
这种称义的原因被很好地定义了。 The causes of this justification are well-defined.
最终的原因是神的荣耀。 The final cause is the glory of God.
我们为什么被称义？ Why are we justified?
为了神和基督的荣耀，以及永生。 For the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting.
有效的原因是仁慈的神白白地洗净和使人成圣，用应许的圣灵印记和膏抹。 The efficient cause is by the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the Holy Spirit of promise.
换句话说，他是如何做到这一点的？ In other words, how does he do this?
是圣灵。 It's the Holy Spirit.
是神，不是你。 It's God, not you.
是神洗净你，你不能洗净自己。 It's God who washes you; you can't wash yourself.
功德的原因——那么，是谁赚取了这个救恩？ The meritorious cause—well, who earned this salvation?
是你吗？ Is it you?
是谁配得的？ Who merited it?
功德的原因是他最爱的独生子，我们的主耶稣基督，当我们还作仇敌的时候，因 他爱我们的大爱，藉着他在十字架上的圣洁受难，为我们赚取了称义的功德。 The meritorious cause is his most beloved and only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity with which he loved us, merited for us justification by his own holy passion on the wood of the cross.
换句话说，基督赚取了我们的救恩；你没有，你不能。基督赚取了我们的救恩。 In other words, Christ merited our salvation; you don't, you can't. Christ merited our salvation.
工具性的原因是什么？ What is the instrumental cause?
嗯，悔改、信心和作为圣礼的洗礼。 Well, repentance and faith and baptism as a sacrament.
这就是为什么在历史基督教中，洗礼一直是一件大事；它不是可选的。 This is why baptism has always been a big deal in historic Christianity; it's not optional.
我认为没有受洗就作基督徒的想法在新约中是陌生的。 I think the idea of being a Christian without being baptized is foreign to the New Testament.
这是一个圣礼；这是基督的割礼，藉此我们被带入基督在最后的逾越节晚餐上设立的新约。 It's a sacrament; it's the circumcision of Christ by which we're brought into the New Covenant that Christ instituted at the Last Passover meal.
神的爱藉着圣灵浇灌在那些被称义之人的心里。 The charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts of those who are justified.
一旦人藉着他所蒙恩的耶稣基督，在那称义中，连同 罪的赦免，同时注入这一切——信心、盼望和爱。 Once man, through Jesus Christ in whom he is ingratiated, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these—faith, hope, and charity—infuse at the same time.
我们可以继续讨论这个；有太多部分了。 We could keep going on this; there are so many parts.
他谈到加尔文，你如何知道你得救了，得救的确据——有很多事情。 He talks about Calvin, how you know you're saved, the certainty of salvation—so many things.
这就是不同之处：当公教神学家说你得救了，有时公教徒 会说我们是因信心和行为得救的，新教徒会说，什么？ And here's the difference: when Catholic theologians say you're saved, sometimes Catholics will say we're saved by faith and works, and a Protestant will go, What?
你怎么可能靠你的好行为得救？ How on earth can you be saved by your good works?
这完全是基督，根据公教徒自己的神学，根据历史基督教，根据圣经，你是因基督得救的。 It's all Christ, to which, by the Catholics' own theology, by historical Christianity, by the Scriptures, you're saved by Christ.
从历史上看，公教神学家和教会的官方文件会说，救恩更像是一个过程。 The Catholic theologians historically, the Church's official documents, will say that salvation is more of a process.
我们藉着悔改、信心，然后洗礼得救了。 We were saved through repentance, faith, and then baptism.
我们正在得救，路德会同意这一点，我们将要得救。 We are, which Luther would agree with, being saved, and we shall be saved.
我的许多新教兄弟姐妹承认，我们得救了，我们正在得救，我们将要得救。 Many of my Protestant brothers and sisters acknowledge that we were saved, we are being saved, and we shall be saved.
这就是行为的作用。 And that's where the works come in.
你没有赚取你的救恩；你不能。你不能靠行为进天堂；没有人做到过。 You haven't merited your salvation; you can't. You can't work your way to heaven; no human being has ever done that.
但在这个过程中，一旦你得救了，一旦你成为基 督徒，圣灵在你生命中更新的工作就改变了你。 But in the process, once you are saved, once you are a Christian, the renewing work of the Holy Spirit in your life transforms you.
藉着将你的意志顺服于神的恩典，你实际上可以成为义人。 By submitting your will to the grace of God, you actually can become righteous.
你可以有爱心，这是你靠自己不可能有的。 You can have charity, which you couldn't have had on your own.
你可以有一定程度的美德，这是你靠自己不可能达到的，这就是神的恩典。 You can have virtues to a level which you couldn't have had on your own, and that's the grace of God.
但关键是：当你因着神的恩典以完全的爱心顺服，做了一些真正公 义的事，公教会说，是的，这是有功德的，因为那是一个好行为。 But here's the thing: when you obey in perfect charity by the grace of God and you do something that's actually righteous, the Catholic Church says, Yeah, that is meritorious in the sense that that was a good work.
这不是说你靠它赚取天堂，而是说，是的，这实际上是好的，不值得被定罪。 It doesn't earn you heaven in the sense that, Yeah, this is actually good and not worthy of condemnation.
这是有功德的；它值得奖赏。 It's meritorious; it merits a reward.
这并不意味着你在靠行为进天堂。 It doesn't mean you're working your way to heaven.
你已经得救了；你已经是基督徒了；你已经相信了，受洗了，被带入了圣约。 You're already saved; you're already a Christian; you've already believed, been baptized, and brought into the covenant.
但在使人成圣的恩典中，现在你的行为，当你顺服神时，是有美 德的，藉着神在你里面运行的恩典，你可以成就基督的律法。 But in the sanctifying grace, now your works, as you submit to God, are virtuous, and by God's grace acting in you, you can fulfill the law of Christ.
从这个意义上说，这就是为什么我使用「功德」这个词。 And in that sense, that's why I use the term merit.
我要非常清楚地说：你不能靠行为得救；你不能靠行为进天堂。 I want to be very clear: you can't be saved by works; you can't earn your way to heaven.
这根本不是他们的教导。 That is not what they teach at all.
这里是另一个例子：因此，我们自己的义也不是从我们自己而来的，因为你做不到。 Here's another example: Thus neither is our own justice established as our own from ourselves because you can't do it.
耶稣自己，当他进入肢体并分开枝子时，不断地将力量注入那些被称 义的人，这力量总是在我们的好行为之前、与之同在并随之而来，没 有这力量，我们的行为就不能以任何方式在神面前蒙悦纳和有功德。 Jesus himself, as he headed into the members and divided the branches, continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always proceeds and accompanies, follows our good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God.
所以即使作为一个基督徒，即使作为一个信徒——重生 的、得救的、称义的——你正在变得更公义、更正直。 So even as a Christian, even as a believer—regenerated, saved, justified—you’re becoming more just, more righteous.
我认为这就是保罗在罗马书中明确教导的：一旦领受了 称义的恩典，除非因不忠诚等原因，否则不会失去。 I think this is explicitly what Paul teaches in Romans: the grace of justification, once received, is not lost except by infidelity and so forth.
现在，我的浸信会新教朋友会引用特伦托会议的话说，我是被咒诅的。 Now, here's where my Baptist Protestant friends will quote Trent and say, I'm anathema.
让我们仔细阅读。 Let's read it carefully.
第9条：如果有人说人可以在神面前靠自己的行为称义，无论是靠自己的 自然力量还是藉着律法的教导，而没有藉着基督的神恩，让他受咒诅。 Canon 9: If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Christ, let him be anathema.
再次重申，如果你认为你可以靠做好事得救，只是 靠自己赚取天堂，而没有神的恩典——不可能。 Reiterating again, if you think you can be saved by doing good things and just earn heaven without the grace of God—no.
他们试图再次说明这一点。 They're trying to say it again.
如果有人说在亚当犯罪后，人的自由意志丧失和毁坏了——不是的。 If anyone says that after the sin of Adam, man's free will was lost and destroyed—nope.
你的意志是堕落的，但你仍然有意志。 Your will is down, but you still have a will.
你仍然是一个做出选择的道德主体，但你需要神的恩典才能做出正确的选择。 You still are a moral agent who makes choices, but you need God's grace in order to make the right choices.
第9条：如果有人说罪人单凭信心称义，意思是为获得称义的恩典不需 要其他合作，他本人的意志行动绝不需要准备和配合，让他受咒诅。 Canon 9: If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
所以我的浸信会朋友会引用这段话说：「你们认 为如果我相信唯独信心，我就是被咒诅的。」 So my Baptist friends will quote this and say, You guys think if I believe in faith alone, I'm anathema.
这取决于你对此的理解。 It depends on what you mean by this.
如果有人说罪人单凭信心称义，意思是为获得称义的恩典不需要其他合作，他 本人的意志行动绝不需要准备和配合，那么咒诅——这里说的是理性知识。 If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, then of the anathema—this is talking about intellectual knowledge.
如果你认为你只需要在头脑中有这些基督教的理性命题，而不需要神的恩 典来支配你的意志、预备你的意志、使你的意志顺服他，让他受咒诅。 If you think that you can just have these intellectual propositions of Christianity in your mind and that you don't need the grace of God to dispose your will, to prepare your will, to submit your will to him, let him be anathema.
那不是历史基督教信仰。 That is not the historic Christian faith.
读读圣奥古斯丁，读读保罗，读读基督和福音书。 Read St. Augustine, read Paul, read Christ and the Gospels.
理性的信心、头脑知识，不是基督教的信心，它只是其中一部分。 Intellectual faith, head knowledge, is not the faith of Christianity; it's only part of it.
你还需要神的恩典在你的意志中工作，预先使你倾向于接受， 你还必须让你的意志赞同神，这就是称义的使人成圣的恩典。 You also need God's grace working in your will to predispose you to accept, and you also must assent your will to God, and that's sanctifying grace of justification.
所以他们所说的唯独信心不是悔改、相信和顺服的信心。 So what they're saying with faith alone is not faith that repents and believes and submits.
他们说的是没有意志顺服、准备行善、准备在洗礼中跟随基督的唯独信心。 They're talking about faith alone without the submission of the will, ready to do good works, ready to follow Christ in baptism.
让他受咒诅。 Let him be anathema.
我希望在这个语境下这是有意义的。 I hope that makes sense in the context of this.
好的，所以在新约中，有一个新的割礼，有一个新的洗礼，还有更多的事情。 Alright, so in the New Covenant, there's a new circumcision, there's a new baptism, and there are so many more things.
有一个新的约柜承载着神的同在。 There's a new Ark of the Covenant bearing the presence of God.
布兰特·皮特里写了一本关于这个的精彩的书，叫《耶稣和圣马利亚的犹太根源》。 Brant Petrie wrote a beautiful book on this called Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary.
很快说一下，各位：如果你看旧约，你会看到约柜来到大卫王那里。 Just real quick, y'all: if you look at the Old Testament, you have the Ark coming to King David.
约柜——你看过《夺宝奇兵》。 The Ark of the Covenant—you've seen Raiders of the Lost Ark.
约柜是神在地上的居所，你看到大卫王说，当约柜来到他那里时，有 呼喊，有跳跃，大卫说：「耶和华的约柜怎么可以到我这里来呢？」 The Ark of the Covenant was the dwelling place of God on earth, and you have King David saying that when the Ark came to him, there was shouting, there was jumping, and David said, How is it that the Ark of the Lord can come unto me?
当新约以更大的方式应验并反映旧约时，路加福音第2章中关于圣马利亚的经文 说了什么？在出埃及记第40章，耶和华的荣光和云彩遮盖了装有约柜的会幕。 When the New Testament is fulfilling in a larger way and mirroring the Old Testament, what does the Scripture say about Mary in Luke chapter 2? Well, in Exodus chapter 40, the glory of the Lord and the cloud over the tabernacle containing the Ark overshadowed them.
路加福音第1章中用了「遮盖」这个词。顺便说一下，另外注意：当 新约引用旧约时，新约作者经常使用希腊文翻译，他们经常使用七十 士译本，其中包含了一些如今被新教徒排除在正典之外的书卷。 Episkioo in Luke chapter 1. By the way, another side note: when the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, the New Testament writers often use the Greek translation; they often use the Septuagint, which by the way contains the books that Protestants have written.
这对我来说很难，但事实就是如此。 That was hard for me, but it's just what happened.
他们经常使用包含我们所谓次经的希腊文圣经译本——这就是新约作者使用的。 They're often using the Greek translation of the Scriptures containing what we call the Apocrypha—that's what the New Testament writers used.
但在这里，当路加引用时，他是在回溯；他在暗指出埃及记第40章，谈论圣马利亚。 But here, when Luke is quoting, he's referring back; he's alluding back to Exodus 40, talking about Mary.
圣灵降临在圣马利亚身上，至高者的能力荫庇圣马利亚——圣经使用同样的词语来描述…… The Holy Spirit comes upon Mary, and the power of the Most High overshadows Mary—the same word the Scriptures use for...
神的同在遮盖约柜所在的会幕，神居住在那里—— 神的同在遮盖圣马利亚，神的同在居住在那里。 The presence of God overshadowing the tabernacle where the Ark of the Covenant was, where God dwelt—the presence of God overshadows Mary, where the presence of God dwelt.
然后在撒母耳记下，当约柜来到大卫那里，他起身进入犹大山地。 Then in 2 Samuel, when the Ark came to David, he arose and went into the hill country of Judah.
在路加福音1:39，圣马利亚起身，进了山地，到了伊丽莎白那里。 In Luke 1:39, Mary arose and went into the hill country to Elizabeth.
大卫承认自己配不上接受约柜，他惊呼：「耶和华的约柜怎么可以到我这里来呢？」 David admits his unworthiness to receive the Ark by exclaiming, How can the Ark of the Lord come to me?
伊丽莎白说了什么？ What did Elizabeth say?
伊丽莎白承认自己配不上接待圣马利亚，她惊呼： 「我主的母亲到我这里来，这是从哪里得的呢？」 Elizabeth admits her unworthiness to receive Mary by exclaiming, And why is it granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
她几乎引用了大卫的话。 She almost quotes David.
当约柜在呼喊声中被抬进来时，大卫跳跃，伊丽莎白 腹中的施洗约翰也跳动，有呼喊声——大声的呼喊。 David leaped when the Ark was brought in with shouting, and John the Baptist in Elizabeth's womb leaped, and there was shouting—a loud shout.
约柜就停在山地，在俄别以东家中三个月。 Then the Ark remained in the hill country in the house of Obed-Edom for three months.
圣马利亚和伊丽莎白同住，约有三个月。 Mary remained in the hill country with Elizabeth for three months.
这些是路加有意的暗示，将旧约书卷与新约相对 照，表明在新约中，圣马利亚是新约的约柜。 These are deliberate allusions of Luke paralleling the Old Covenant books to show that in the New Covenant, this is the Ark of the New Covenant.
圣经中有很多这样的内容，我们可以一直谈下去。 There are so many things like this in the Scriptures; we could go on and on.
在启示录中，整个新约书卷都在与旧约书卷相对照，展示它们是如何以一种更伟大 、出人意料、类似于情节转折的方式在人类历史中实现的，这对我来说真是令人难 以置信——圣马利亚，新约的约柜，等等。我们可以花几个小时来解释这一点。 In Revelation, really the whole New Testament books are paralleling the Old Covenant books and showing how they're fulfilled in this greater, unexpected, kind of like a plot twist way that really happened in human history, which is mind-boggling to me—Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, etc. And we could work this out for hours and hours.
我希望这已经很多了；我希望这很有趣。 I hope this has been a lot; I hope this has been interesting.
我知道内容很多，但我要说的是：如果我可以用 四类理由来总结我为什么要成为天主教徒…… I know it's been a lot, but essentially what I could say is this: if I could summarize in four categories of reasons why I'm becoming Catholic...
这是因为我认为圣经教导一种圣事性的世界观，其中基督既是神又是人，他建立了教会。 It's because I think the Scriptures teach a sacramental worldview in which Christ is both God and man, and he instituted the Church.
教会内的一些教会实际上仍然存在；我们可以找到它们。 Some of those churches inside the Church are literally still present; we can find them.
我们可以在我身后的这些书中一路追溯到最初，阅读他们所写的内容。 We can trace this all the way back in the books behind me and read what they wrote.
正如爱任纽所说，耶稣教导了使徒。 As Irenaeus said, Jesus taught the apostles.
这就是南法的爱任纽所说的：我们知道异端和邪教在传扬假福音和错误教义， 歪曲真理，因为耶稣教导了使徒，耶稣和使徒不希望教会立即普遍陷入异端。 This is what Irenaeus in South France said: we know that heretics and cults are preaching false gospels and false doctrines, perversions, because Jesus taught the apostles, and Jesus and the apostles didn't want the Church to immediately fall universally into heresy.
使徒按立了人，正如保罗告诉提摩太的，要坚守 我传给你的传统，无论是口传的还是书信中的。 The apostles ordained men, and as Paul told Timothy, Keep the traditions that I've passed to you, whether by word or in a letter.
他们教导他们，我们知道这就是他们所相信和教导的， 只需通过简单的历史方法和他们的著作就可以知道。 They taught them, and we know this is what they believed and taught just by the simple historical method and by their writings.
然后他们按立人，他们按立人，他们按立人。 Then they ordained men, and they ordained men, and they ordained men.
公教会的传统——有些传统是不好的，但圣经确实说要坚守使徒保罗传下来的传统。 The Catholic tradition—some traditions are bad, but the Scriptures do say to keep the traditions that have been passed down by Paul the Apostle.
有好的传统。 There are good traditions.
这是一个智慧和属灵的传统，一直传承到基督。 This is an intellectual and spiritual tradition that's been passed on, going all the way back to Christ.
你可以在我身后的这些书中追溯到它。 You can trace it in these books behind me.
教会一直都在这个公教会的传统中；正是公教会的基督教在世界上表达自己。 The Church was always in this Catholic tradition; it was the Catholic Christianity that expressed itself in the world.
对于所有腐败的主教和所有那些在学校或任何糟糕情况下没有做到最好的牧 师、修女和修士——如果你发现自己处于那种情况，我很抱歉——或者对于 那些腐败或没有正确教导或塑造他们的人民的神父，我为此感到抱歉。 For all the corrupt bishops and all those ministers, nuns, and monks who didn't do the best job with schools or whatever bad situation—I'm sorry if you found yourself in that—or for the priests who have been corrupt or didn't properly teach their people or form their people, I'm sorry for that.
我是。 I am.
但这并不改变基督教一直以来在现代世界中都是公教会的事实。 But it doesn't change the fact that Christianity had always been Catholic into the modern world.
所以我尊重的是：我尊重那些看到他们的基要主义基 督教的缺点并渴望更深层次的东西的男人和女人。 So here's what I respect: I respect men and women who see the shortcomings in perhaps their fundamentalist Christianity and want something deeper.
他们想回到圣经；他们想回到历史和传统，对吗？ They want to go back to the Scriptures; they want to go back to history and tradition, right?
所以他们要么试图变得更加仁慈，他们回到单纯的基督教，说，让我们 不要太担心教义；让我们只是比我们见过的人更加仁慈地对待彼此。 And so they either try to become more gracious, and they fall back on mere Christianity and say, Let's not worry about the doctrine so much; let's just be more gracious with each other than the people we've seen.
我尊重这一点。 I respect that.
或者，嘿，我们想要更深层次的东西；我们想要历史悠久的基督教信仰，对吗？ Or, hey, we want something deeper; we want the historic Christian faith, right?
所以让我们读读改革者的著作。 So let's read the Reformers.
伙计，我们要回到加尔文、路德，也许还有慈运理。 Man, we're going to fall back on Calvin and Luther and maybe Zwingli.
我尊重这些人真的想知道什么是真正的基督教——不是单纯的基督教，而是完整的基督教。 I respect the fact that these folks really want to know what authentic Christianity is—not mere Christianity, but full Christianity.
我尊重这一点。 I respect that.
但关键是：如果你回顾早期教会，并根据基督徒一直以来所说的话来研究 圣经，你会发现现代世界及其还原主义和物质主义的力量已经影响了现代 基督教，剥夺了我们的圣事，剥夺了我们对圣地和圣人的看法，剥夺了一 位在我们生命中行事、想要与我们相交、真实地与我们同在的神。 But here's the thing: if you look back to the early Church and study the Scriptures in light of what the Christians had always said, you will see that the modern world and its forces of reduction and materialism have weighed in on modern Christianity, robbing us of sacraments, robbing us of a view of a world of holy places and holy people, robbing us of a God who acts in our lives, who wants to commune with us, who comes to be with us in a real way.
在圣餐中，他没有抛弃我们；他常与我们同在，直到世界的末了。 In the communion, he hasn't abandoned us; he's with us always, even to the end of the world.
你会看到早期基督徒对此的理解，以及现代世界已经开始剥离这些东西。 You'll see what the early Christians meant by that and that the modern world has begun to strip those things away.
尽管我的浸信会、长老会、卫理公会和圣公会朋友—— 我们都还是基督徒——但我们有一个简化的基督教。 Even though my Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Anglican friends—we're all still Christians—but we have a reduced Christianity.
对我来说，我需要完整的东西。 For me, I need the full thing.
如果无神论是真的，我愿意成为一个无神论者，但事实并非如此。 I was willing to become an atheist if it was true, but it's not.
如果是真的，我愿意成为任何东西，但因着神的恩典，我知道神是真实的，基督是真实的。 I was willing to become anything if it was true, but by the grace of God, I know that God is true and Christ is true.
在历史悠久的基督教中，我发现了一些比可能简化基督教的东西更美好的东西。 In historic Christianity, I found something so much more beautiful than what might reduce Christianity.
我找到了一位想要与我们同在并在我们生命中行事的神 ，他想要赐给我们恩典，并为我们提供恩典的途径。 I found a God who wants to be with us and act in our lives, who wants to give us grace and provide us with a means of grace.
我找到了一个智慧的传统，它使生命中最深奥的问题变得有意义。 I found an intellectual tradition that makes sense of life's deepest questions.
我读了尼采、萨特、亚里士多德和柏拉图的作品，试图理解这一切。 I read Nietzsche and Sartre and Aristotle and Plato, trying to make sense of all this.
作为基督徒，你所捍卫的基督教传统在公教会中找到了最充分的表达。 The Christian tradition that you defend as a Christian finds its fullest expression in Catholicism.
这些是我挣扎过的事情，但它确实如此。 These are things I've struggled with, but it's simply true.
我对你说这些是因为我欠你一个解释；如果你是 我的朋友，你需要知道我生命和思想的状态。 I say this to you because I owe you an explanation; you need to know where I'm at in my life and my thinking if you're my friend.
但我也以朋友的身份对你说这些，如果你有足够的耐心听完这一切，而 你只是从网上认识我，如果你不是通过基督认识神，我可以鼓励你吗？ But I also say this as your friend, and if you've been patient enough to sit through all this and you just know me from the internet, if you don't know God through Christ, can I encourage you?
我真诚地鼓励你，寻求神。 As genuinely as I can, seek God.
神离你不远。 God's not far away from you.
如果在任何时候你可能感受到他并找到他，就放下你心中那些拖累你的东西。 If at any time you might feel after him and find him, give away those things in your heart that are holding you down.
如果你心中有罪，因为你想做的事情而不愿意把你的心、你的意志 、你的生命交给神，那么靠着神的恩典，以悔改和信心转向他。 If you have sin in your heart and you don't want to submit your heart, your will, your life to God because of things that you want to do, by the grace of God, turn to him in repentance and faith.
他会帮助你放弃那些东西。 He'll help you give those things up.
你必须愿意悔改，从你的罪和自义中转离，到神那里去，把你的意志交给基督。 You have to be willing to repent, turn from your sin and self-righteousness, go to God, and give your will to Christ.
他是君王；让你的心顺服，在君王面前跪下你的心。 He is the King; submit your heart, kneel your heart before the King.
然后去教会。 Then go to church.
在这一点上，我建议找一个稳定、真诚的公教会堂区。 At this point, I'll recommend finding a stable, genuine Catholic parish.
如果你能开车，如果你必须去，就受洗，寻求共融，在恩典中成长。 If you can drive, if you have to go, be baptized, seek communion, and grow in grace.
正如彼得所说：「有了信心，又要加上德行。有了德 行，又要加上知识。有了知识，又要加上节制。」 As Peter says, Add to your faith virtue, temperance, all of these things.
如果你是新教朋友，我爱你，但我知道你是如何爱神的，你想要他为你预备的丰盛。 If you're a Protestant friend, I love you, but what I know is how you love God and you want the fullness of what he has for you.
我可以鼓励你吗，尽管很难，要彻底阅读圣经，阅读早期基督徒的著作，阅读历史？ Can I encourage you, as hard as it is, to read the Scriptures thoroughly, read the early Christians, read history?
我认为今天的公教会有挣扎…… I think today the Catholic Church has struggles...
这些都是像我们一样的人。 These are human beings like us.
有一些司祭不太好，有一些主教不太好，有一些教师不清楚。 There are priests who are not great; there are bishops who are not great; there are unclear teachers.
这是现实。 It's a reality.
不要以为你找到了天堂就去公教会，你没有。但这是基督的教会，他们会给你提供圣事。 Don't go to the Catholic Church thinking you've found paradise; you haven't. But it is Christ's Church, and they'll offer the sacraments to you.
在基督的教会里，我们可以按照他的心意，以合一的心事奉我们的主。 In Christ's Church, we can serve our Lord with the unity that he intended.
我很高兴与我的家人一起这样做。 I'm excited to do this with my family.
我完全信靠基督，我希望你也是。 I am all in with Christ; I hope you are too.
如果你是穆斯林朋友，请研究耶稣生平的历史。 If you're a Muslim friend, please examine the history around the life of Jesus.
如果你是无神论者朋友，也请这样做。 If you're an atheist friend, do the same.
阅读圣经，寻求神，愿意祷告，并跟随证据所指的方向。 Read the Scriptures, seek God, and be willing to pray and follow the evidence where it leads.
因为一点点证据可能会让你转向无神论，但所有 的证据都会让你转向基督教，它会让你转向神。 Because a little bit of the evidence might turn you to atheism, but all the evidence will turn you to Christianity; it will turn you to God.
路易斯曾经说过：「一个年轻的无神论者在阅读时不能太小心，因为到处都是陷阱。」 C.S. Lewis once said, A young atheist cannot be too careful of his reading because there are traps everywhere.
如果你学习了足够的哲学、历史和神学，当你在基础 水平学习时，你可能会想：「啊，基督教真愚蠢。」 If you study enough philosophy, history, and theology, when you study at a basic level, you might think, Ah, Christianity is stupid.
但当你作为一个成熟的人反思时，你会看到历史中的价值、真理和美。 But as you reflect as a mature person, you see the value, truth, and beauty in history.
对此，我要补充一点：一个年轻的新教徒，一个寻 求神的年轻浸信会教徒，在阅读时不能太小心。 To this, I'm going to add a little addendum: a young Protestant, a young Baptist seeking God, cannot be too careful of his or her reading.
到处都是陷阱。 There are traps everywhere.
仔细阅读圣经，不要忽略难懂的段落，真正试着去理解它们，然后阅读早期教会的著作。 Read the Scriptures carefully, not glossing over passages that are difficult, really trying to see them, and then read what the early Church wrote.
到处都是陷阱。 There are traps everywhere.
我想你最终会寻求一个礼仪传统。 I think you'll wind up seeking a liturgical tradition.
就我自己而言，我想也许我可以成为一名圣公会教徒，我试图到处留下一些小线索。 For my own part, I thought maybe I could be an Anglican, and I tried to leave little clues everywhere.
所以我最终发现会成为礼仪性的——圣公会、公教 会、路德宗、东正教——无论证据将我引向何方。 So what I eventually found would become liturgical—an Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox—wherever the evidence led.
我希望有一些小线索可以缓和冲击，这样人们就不会认为它是凭空而来的。 I wanted there to be little clues to soften the blow so people wouldn't think it came out of nowhere.
我想也许我可以留在圣公会作为一个安全的中间立场，但我越 是反思，就越觉得我跳过了许多好基督徒朋友停留的那一步。 I thought maybe I could stay with Anglicanism as a safe middle ground, and the more I reflected, the more I thought I skipped that step that so many of my good Christian friends stop at.
我意识到我需要直接去基督的教会——历史悠久的教会，有着所有 的奇迹、美丽和历史，有着有缺陷的人，有时还有着斑驳的过去。 I realized I need to go straight to Christ's Church—the historic Church, with all its wonders, beauty, and history, and flawed people, and sometimes checkered past.
这是基督的教会，我需要成为其中的一部分。 It's Christ's Church, and I need to be a part of it.
我希望这对你来说是一个祝福。 I hope this has been a blessing to you.
我可以给你推荐一些东西吗？ Can I recommend some things to you?
在YouTube上看看巴伦主教的视频。 Check out Bishop Barron on YouTube.
看看迈克·施密茨神父。 Check out Father Mike Schmitz.
如果你喜欢研究圣经，看看布兰特·皮特里博士的《耶稣和 圣餐的犹太根源》、《耶稣和圣母玛利亚的犹太根源》。 If you like to study Scripture a lot, check out Dr. Brant Petrie—Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary.
一定要读安提阿的伊格内修、爱任纽的《反异端》、游斯 丁致命、安波罗修、圣奥古斯丁——这些人的任何著作。 Definitely read Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus against Heresies, Justin Martyr, Ambrose, St. Augustine—anything you can read by these people.
你可以在上下文中阅读尼西亚大公会议和特伦托会议。 The Council of Nicaea, you can read the Council of Trent in context.
我认为这些东西会对你有帮助和祝福，并展示我们信仰的丰满。 I think these things will be a help and a blessing to you and will show the fullness of our faith.
看看这些人在圣经中对玛利亚的描述。 Check out what these people say about Mary in the Scriptures.
看看斯科特·哈恩博士，他是一位优秀的圣经传道者，他解释事情的能力比我强得多。 Check out Dr. Scott Hahn, who’s just a good Bible preacher who explains things so much better than I can.
他会说新教的行话，所以他可以翻译一些东西。 He speaks Protestant lingo, so he can translate things.
因为就像我误解阿奎那直到有人为我翻译一样，我也有点误解 了公教会，就像我的许多兄弟姐妹一样，直到有人为我翻译。 Because just as I misunderstood Aquinas until someone translated it, I sort of misunderstood Catholicism, like so many of my brothers and sisters do, until someone has sort of translated it for me.
我希望这些事情对你来说是一个祝福。 I hope these things have been a blessing to you.
在我发布这个之前，我要为你祷告。 Before I post this, I'm going to pray for you.
请你继续为我和我的家人祷告好吗？ Would you please continue to pray for me and my family?
我希望在基督的教会里见到你。 I hope to see you in Christ's Church.