晚上好，欢迎收听《归家之旅》节目。 Good evening, welcome to The Journey Home.
我是马库斯·格罗迪，这个每周节目的主持人。 My name is Marcus Grodi, your host on this weekly program.
我每周都有幸向大家介绍一位皈依者或重返公教会的人，与大家分享他们的信仰历程。 It's a great privilege I always have to meet with you each week to introduce to you a convert or someone who's come back to the Catholic Church to talk about their journey.
今晚我很荣幸向大家介绍詹姆斯·拉库迪斯。 I'm very privileged tonight to introduce to you James Lakoudis.
很多人可能在EWTN电视台见过他；他曾出现在安琪拉修 女的节目中，今晚将分享他从希腊东正教到公教会的经历。 Many of you probably have seen him on EWTN before; he's been on Mother Angelica's program, and he's going to talk about his journey from the Greek Orthodox Church.
这很令人兴奋，因为很多观众通过邮件和信件询问我是否会邀 请东正教的皈依者，而到目前为止，我还没有这样的嘉宾。 It's exciting because many of you have given me emails or letters asking if I'll have a convert from the Orthodox Church, and up to this point, I've not had one.
所以我非常期待吉姆今晚的到来。 So I look forward to Jim's presence with us on this program.
请记住，你们是节目的重要组成部分，请准备好问题和邮件，稍后我们会与吉姆互动。 Remember, you're an important part of this program, so start getting your questions and emails ready to put to Jim later in the program.
如果你想给我们打电话，电话号码是1-800-221-9460， 如果想发邮件，邮箱是journeyhome@ewtn.com。 The phone number, if you'd like to call us, is 1-800-221-9460, and if you'd like to email us, it's journeyhome@ewtn.com.
吉姆，欢迎来到我们的节目。 Jim, welcome to the program.
谢谢你，马库斯。 Thank you, Marcus.
你说你偶尔在家收看这个节目；这确实是个很棒的节目。 And you say you watch the program once in a while at home; it's a great program.
很高兴你能来到这里。 Well, I'm glad to have you here.
有时我们的嘉宾从未看过这个节目，因为他们所在的地方没有卫星电视或有线电视。 Sometimes our guests have never seen the program before because where they live, they don't have the dish or they don't have the cable.
但你能收看这个节目，所以你知道站在另一边是什么感 觉，现在你和我站在同一边，准备接听观众的电话。 But you're able to see the program, so you know a little bit of what it's like to be on the other side, and now you're here with me on this side, ready to take their calls for you.
很荣幸邀请你参加这个节目，因为东正教是许多皈依者探索的议题之一 ，当他们考虑公教信仰时，关于公教会和东正教会之间存在很多混淆。 I'm a great privilege to have you on the program because Orthodoxy is one of the issues that many converts explore a bit as they consider the Catholic faith, and there's much confusion about the two churches: Catholic and Orthodox.
关于公教会的东仪礼，也存在一些混淆，我们稍后会讨论这个问题。 There's confusion about the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church, so we'll talk about that a little bit later.
你能不能先给我们讲讲你早期的信仰历程？ Why don't you start by giving us a summary of your early spiritual journey?
马库斯，我在纽约的拉卡瓦纳长大，这里以伯利恒钢铁公司而闻名。 Well, Marcus, I was brought up in Lackawanna, New York, famous for Bethlehem Steel.
对，还有贝克神父的宏伟大教堂，这很有趣，因为在纽约拉 卡瓦纳，纳尔逊·贝克主教创建并建造了这座宏伟的教堂。 Good, and also Father Baker's magnificent basilica, which is rather interesting because in Lackawanna, New York, Monsignor Nelson Baker founded this magnificent church and built it.
他在96岁时去世，目前已开始了他的封圣程序。 He died at the age of 96, and his cause for beatification has been opened.
所以拉卡瓦纳因贝克神父而闻名，他可能将来会成为真福。 So Lackawanna is certainly famous for Father Baker, perhaps a future blessed.
拉卡瓦纳有许多公教学校。 There were a number of Catholic schools in Lackawanna.
我出生于第一次世界大战后移民到美国的希腊移民家庭。我父 亲曾是希腊军队的士兵，他在那里待得太久，渴望来到美国。 I was born to Greek immigrant parents who came to this country right after World War I. My father was a soldier in the Greek army; he'd been kept there too long and wanted to come to the United States.
他们是希腊东正教徒，来自希腊西海岸的一个小岛，叫做凯法洛尼亚。 So they were Greek Orthodox and came from a little island off the west coast of Greece called Cephalonia.
我最早的记忆是在纽约水牛城的希腊东正教堂参加宏伟的希腊礼仪，同时还上公立学校。 My earliest memories were of the magnificent Greek liturgy in the Greek Orthodox Church in Buffalo, New York, and going to public school.
我对宗教很感兴趣；我想更多地了解自己的信仰，并且对公教学校和 那里的学生印象深刻，因为他们接受了我没有机会接受的宗教教育。 I was sort of interested in religion; I wanted to know more about my own faith, and I was impressed by the Catholic schools and the Catholic youngsters who went to those schools, insofar as they were getting a religious education that I wasn't getting.
因为从拉卡瓦纳到水牛城交通很不方便，我父亲又不会开车。 Because it was very difficult to travel into Buffalo from Lackawanna, my dad didn't drive.
在希腊东正教中几乎没有正式的教理讲授机会，但我对宗教很感兴趣，所以自己钻研。 There was no possibility of a formal, let's say, catechesis in Greek Orthodoxy, but I was interested in religion, and so I studied.
坦白说，我很早就面临一个问题。 Frankly, I was confronted by a problem very early on.
公教会自称是基督的真正教会，有趣的是，希腊东正教也同样自称是基督的真正教会。 The Catholics, you see, claimed to be the true Church of Jesus Christ, and interestingly enough, the Greek Orthodox claimed to be the true Church of Jesus Christ.
显然，不可能存在两个真正的教会。 Obviously, you couldn't have two true churches.
当我在水牛城大学学习哲学和历史时，我在图书馆里花了很多时间研究教 会历史，特别是东西方分裂的历史，这导致了与罗马分离的东方教会。 When I went to the University of Buffalo and studied philosophy and history there, I spent a lot of time in the library studying the history of the Church and studying the history of the schism between West and East, which gave rise to the separated Eastern churches that separated from Rome.
通常认为的关键日期是1054年，但20世纪的历史学家发 现这并不是分裂的准确时间；实际上分裂发生在更晚的时候。 The key date usually given is 1054, but historians of the 20th century have discovered that really that's not a very good date for the schism; it really occurred later.
严重的分裂发生在12世纪末。 You have a serious rupture taking place at the end of the 12th century.
到那时，希腊人已经开始攻击教宗至高无上的地 位，这种分裂的倾向随后蔓延到斯拉夫人中。 By that time, the first attacks on papal primacy were taking place among the Greeks, and this schismatic tendency spread to the Slavs.
所以你实际上是在处理希腊-斯拉夫教会，这是由大约16个国家教 会组成的集团，包括大多数俄罗斯人、塞尔维亚人、保加利亚人、阿 尔巴尼亚人、许多罗马尼亚人、中东的一些阿拉伯人以及希腊人。 So you're really dealing with what you might call the Greco-Slav churches that form a block of about 16 national churches, where you have most Russians, most Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians, a lot of Romanians, some Arabs in the Middle East, and the Greeks.
尽管在1274年和1439年曾有过某些重聚，但这些国家教会在1439年佛罗 伦萨大公会议被否决后形成了更加巩固的分裂。这是教会历史上一个非常悲剧性的篇 章：君士坦丁堡、亚历山大、安提阿和耶路撒冷这些古老的宗主教教会的分离。 All of them form a block of national churches that, for centuries, despite certain reunions that took place in 1274 and 1439, you have a more, let's say, solidified separation taking place after the repudiation of the Council of Florence in 1439. So you have a very tragic episode in Church history here: the separation of these patriarchal churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem—these old historic churches.
加上他们的分支教会，可以说，这些教会已经与彼得的宝座分离了几个世纪。 Plus their daughter churches, you might say, that for many centuries have been separated from the Sea of Peter.
这可能是教会历史上最大的悲剧。 That's probably the greatest tragedy in the history of the Church.
那么，当你在大学研究这些时，你仍然是希腊东正教徒，对吗？ Well, back when you were studying this in college, you were still Greek Orthodox, is that correct?
当时，你是否已经开始思想转变，还是仍然以东正教的方式看待公教会？ At the time, had you already gone through your transition in thinking, or did you still have an Orthodox way of looking at the Catholic Church at that point?
是的，有一段时间我对公教会非常敌视，仅仅是 因为我读了一些东正教作家和论战者的著作。 Yes, there was a period in which I was very hostile to the Catholic Church simply because I had read a number of Orthodox writers and polemicists.
主要观点是公教会脱离了希腊教会，而基督教历史的前一千年没 有证据表明教宗对整个教会（东方和西方）拥有普世管辖权。 The major point was that the Catholics had separated from the Greek Church, and the first thousand years of Christian history had no evidence of the universal jurisdiction of the Pope over the entire Church, both East and West.
这就是我的观点，你知道。 My story there’s perspective, you know.
我特别关注教宗制度的历史，并阅读了教宗朱利叶斯、 英诺森、利奥一世、格雷戈里一世和盖拉修的著作。 I paid special attention to the history of the papacy itself and read the writings of Popes Julius, Innocent, Leo I, Gregory I, and Gelasius.
他们是哪个时期的？ When were they?
他们是在4、5、6世纪。 They would be in the 4th, 5th, and 6th centuries.
请记住，现今许多东正教作家仍然坚持，在最初的 一千年里，没有我们现在所知的教宗制度的证据。 Now remember, and you see this among a number of Orthodox writers today, they keep insisting that for the first thousand years, there’s no evidence of the papacy as we know it.
当然，我自己对历史的研究表明这完全不属实，因为如果你阅读教宗们自己的著作 ，在分裂之前很久——分裂前几百年——他们对自己在教会中的角色就毫无疑问。 Of course, my own study of history indicated this was simply not true because if you read the writings of the popes themselves, long before the schism—hundreds of years before the schism—there is no question what they believed their role in the Church was.
教宗认为自己是使徒彼得的继承者，在教会中被赋予了职责：作为教会 的磐石，天国钥匙的持有者，坚固弟兄的人，以及教会的首席牧者。 The Pope considered himself to be the successor of the Apostle Peter, who was given an office in the Church to be the rock of the Church, to be the holder of the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to be the confirmer of his brethren, and to be the chief shepherd of the Church.
因为我们的主在复活后对他说：「你喂养我的小羊」，「你牧养我的羊」。 For our Lord said to him after the resurrection, Feed my lambs, feed my sheep.
希腊文中的一个词实际上是统治，统治我的羊羔和羊。 One of the words in Greek is actually rule, rule my lambs and sheep.
在你研究这些问题的期间，是这个特定的问题使你难以成为终身的东正教徒吗？ During this time when you were examining these things, was it this particular issue that made it difficult for you to be a lifelong Orthodox?
面对你在历史中发现的这些事情——当时对你来说是毁灭性的吗？ To confront these things you were discovering in history—was it a shattering thing for you at the time?
这对你的家庭产生了什么影响？ What did it do to your family?
你是在大学期间皈依的吗？ Is that when you converted, while you were in college?
大学里的情况相当复杂。 It was a sort of complex scene at the university.
我在校园里有点像一个隐秘的公教徒，因为公教会当时正遭受攻击。 I was sort of a kind of crypto-Catholic while on campus because the Catholic Church was coming under attack.
那是保罗·布兰查德时代，学术界世俗人文主义和 世俗主义兴起，公教会在校园里正遭受严重批评。 These were the days of Paul Blanchard and the rise of secular humanism and secularism among academics, and the Catholic Church was taking a beating at that time on campus.
校园报纸对教会并不友好。 The campus newspaper was not very friendly to the Church.
在阅读后，我对公教会有些同情。对听众来说可能很有趣的是，纽曼枢机主教 、曼宁枢机主教、托马斯·威廉·艾利斯和亨利·威尔伯福斯——这些从圣公 会皈依的人对教会历史有深刻理解，并且是教宗至高无上地位的坚定捍卫者。 I was sort of sympathetic to Catholicism after my reading, and one of the things that perhaps is interesting for those who are listening was the writings of Cardinal Newman, Cardinal Manning, Thomas William Allies, and Henry Wilberforce—converts from Anglicanism who had a great grasp of the history of the Church and who were great defenders of papal supremacy and papal primacy.
从阅读他们的作品和教宗们的原始著作中，很明显教宗不仅仅是首席平等者。 And it was quite obvious from reading their works and reading the original writings of the popes themselves that the Pope was more than just the first among equals.
他不仅仅拥有荣誉的首席地位；是的，他有荣誉 的首席地位，但这是基于管辖权的首席地位。 He didn't just have a primacy of honor; yes, he had a primacy of honor, but that was based on a primacy of jurisdiction.
教宗不像教会的其他主教；他是使徒彼得的继承者 ，是整个基督教世界中唯一继承特定使徒的主教。 The Pope was not just like any other bishop of the Church; he was the successor of the Apostle Peter and the only bishop in all Christendom that was a descendant or the successor of a particular apostle.
没有安德烈的继承者，没有雅各的继承者——也许只有犹大的继承者；我 们不谈论那个——但教宗是彼得的继承者，彼得在教会中有永久的职位。 There is no successor to Andrew, no successor to James—perhaps there are successors to Judas; we won't talk about that—but the Pope was the successor to Peter, who had a permanent office in the Church.
整个东正教会论的概念受到了审查。 The whole concept of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology came under examination.
东正教对教会的概念——现在他们和我们公教徒一样，相信教会是可见 的，不像新教徒不相信这个世界上有可与基督教会认同的可见组织。 The Eastern Orthodox concept of the Church—now they believe, along with us Catholics, that the Church is visible, unlike Protestants who don't believe that there is a visible organism in this world that is to be identified with the Church of Christ.
东正教不同意不可见教会的观念；他们也相信教会是可见的。 Eastern Orthodox don't agree with the idea of an invisible Church; they too believe that the Church is visible.
但是他们思想中的反常和矛盾，我无法克服：你怎么能相信一个没有可见首领的可见教会？ But the anomaly in their thinking, the contradiction, I just couldn't overcome: how do you believe in a visible Church that does not have a visible head?
在其人性的完美中，教会必须有一个可见的首领。 The Church must have, in its human perfection, a visible head.
如果要将教会描述为一个可见的机构，它必须有一个可见的首领，而在 最初的一千年里，唯一声称是整个教会可见首领的是彼得的继承者。 If you're going to speak of the Church as a visible body, it must have a visible head, and the only claimant to being the visible head of the entire Church in those first thousand years was the successor of Peter.
我遇到过教会外的人常说，如果彼得的地位有什么发展 ，那是君士坦丁后强加于基督徒的，是拉丁化的产物。 One of the things that I've run across in my working with those outside the Church is they'll often say that if there was a development of Peter, it was something forced on the Christians after Constantine and the more Latinizing of everything.
我相信你听过这种论点。 I'm sure you've heard that argument.
那些对教会持高度政治化观点的人令人疲惫；他们总是从权力和政治权力的角度思考问题。 One tires of people who have a highly politicized view of the Church; they always think in terms of power and political power.
基督在教会中建立了彼得的首席地位，以维护和保障信仰的合一。 Christ established a primacy of Peter in the Church to preserve and safeguard the unity of faith.
这是教宗在教会中的伟大职能。 That is the great function of the Pope in the Church.
只需阅读若望保禄二世的宏伟著作，他是一位伟大的合一主义者——我们这个 时代最伟大的合一主义者——他告诉我们什么是真正的、真实的合一主义。 One only has to read the magnificent writings of Pope John Paul II, who was a great ecumenist—the greatest ecumenist of our day—and he tells you what real, genuine ecumenism is.
在《愿他们合而为一》和《东方的光》这两部精彩的著作中， 教宗向所有公教徒和非公教徒阐述了真正的合一主义是什么。 In these two marvelous writings, Ut Unum Sint (That They May Be One) and Orientale Lumen (Light from the East), the Holy Father gives his thought to all Catholics and to non-Catholics as to what genuine ecumenism is.
他基本上说，每个公教徒都有责任以正确的方式成为合一主义者：与 他人对话，引起他们对信仰的兴趣，向他们展示公教信仰的完整性。 What he basically says is it is incumbent upon every Catholic to be an ecumenist in the right sense of that term: to dialogue with others, to interest them in the faith, to show them where the fullness of the Catholic faith is.
这个完整性就在公教会。 It is with the Catholic Church.
要真正成为正统，就必须与彼得宝座共融。 And to be truly Orthodox, one has to be in communion with the See of Peter.
大多数东正教徒确实相信公教徒所信的98-96%，但他们仍 然缺乏正统性的完整性，因为如果要真正忠于头一千年教父和大 公会议的传统，他们就必须接受随之而来的彼得首席地位。 Most Orthodox certainly believe 98-96% of everything Catholics believe, but they still lack the completeness of their orthodoxy in the sense that if they are to really be faithful to the tradition of the Fathers and councils of the first thousand years, they have to accept the primacy of Peter that comes with it.
对于利奥教宗、盖拉修教宗以及那一千年间的许多其他教宗所 教导的内容，他们在教会中的职能和角色毫无疑问：作为东西 方教会共融的合一中心，构成了圣奥古斯丁所说的大公教会。 There’s no question of what Pope Leo and Gelasius and so many other popes in that first thousand years taught, what their function and their role in the Church was: to be the center of unity for the communion of churches, both East and West, comprising what St. Augustine called the Catholica, the Catholic thing, the Catholic Church.
你提到真正的分裂可能并不像我们通常认为的1 054年那样；实际上是在后来更加巩固的。 You mentioned that the real division probably didn't take place as we usually think about 1054; it really was more solidified later.
你说的导致教会分裂的关键问题是什么？ What were the key issues that you said divided the churches?
公教会和东正教之间今天的重大教义分歧基本上是两个，但可以 归结为一个，因为东正教数百年来对「Filioque」（意 为「并且从子」）的反对，在这个词上已经浪费了大量笔墨。 The great dogmatic differences between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy today are basically two, and that can be reduced to one because the objections to the Filioque that the Orthodox have censured Catholics for for centuries—oceans of ink being spilled in that controversy over that word Filioque, which means and the Son.
这在信经中；我们说圣灵从圣父和圣子发出。 It’s in the Creed; we say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
希腊东正教不喜欢这个补充，并将其批评为异端。 The Greek Orthodox did not like that addition and criticized it as heretical.
现在，许多东正教神学家已经相信这只是语义上的差异；这并不是异端。 Now, Orthodox theologians, many of them, have come to believe that it’s simply a semantic difference; it’s not a heretical thing.
这并不意味着公教徒和东正教必须因为这个教义问题而保持分离。 It doesn’t necessitate Catholics and Orthodox staying apart on the basis of that dogmatic issue.
在中世纪，圣灵只从圣父发出，这是东正教的立场，还是圣灵 从圣父和圣子发出，这是公教会的立场——这是主要的分歧。 In the Middle Ages, the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone, which is what the Orthodox stated, or the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, which is the Catholic position—that was the big difference.
很有趣的是，在中世纪从12世纪到15世纪，「Filioque」争议比教宗 制度是一个更大的教义分歧，而现在教宗制度是公教会和东正教之间的首要问题。 It’s very interesting that in the medieval period, from the 12th century to the 15th century, the Filioque controversy was a greater doctrinal difference than the papacy, which now is the number one issue between Catholics and Orthodox.
教宗呼吁东正教忠实地研究头一千年的历史，并 认识到战斗教会在地上需要一个可见的首领。 The Holy Father is calling upon the Orthodox to study faithfully the history of those first thousand years and to realize the necessity of a visible head for the Church militant on earth.
基督确实建立了一个合一的中心，以保护东西方教会的信仰和共融。 Christ did establish a center of unity to safeguard the faith and communion of the churches of East and West.
因此，他呼吁重新思考，甚至在公教会内部，如何 在不激怒东方教会的情况下行使教宗的首席权。 So he’s called upon a rethinking, even among Catholics, as to how his primacy could be exercised in the Church without raising the hackles of the East.
在中世纪，如果我可以补充一下，十二世纪圣餐中无酵饼的争议比教宗制度本身更为严重。 In the Middle Ages, if I can just complete that answer, it’s interesting that in the 12th century, the dispute over unleavened bread in the Eucharist was a more serious problem than the papacy itself.
在早期中世纪，十二、十三、十四世纪，公教会使用无酵饼举行圣餐这一事实被视为异端。 In the early Middle Ages, in the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries, the fact that Catholics had unleavened bread in the Eucharist was regarded as a heresy.
现在，我认为没有太多东正教徒会坚持这种观点。 Now, I don’t think there are too many Orthodox today that would hold that position.
东正教对拒绝公教会的论战理由已经有所缓和，这很好， 因为这源于真诚的对话和思想交流，是大公会议的成果。 There has been a softening of polemical reasons for the rejection of Catholicism among the Orthodox, and that's very good because it's coming from the genuine dialogue and conversions of ideas that are the result of ecumenical conferences.
那么，关于——这是我之前没有提到的问题——凯撒教 皇主义，即教会与周围政府之间关系的整个问题呢？ What about the—this is the question I didn't mention earlier when we were talking—the issue of Caesaropapism, that whole issue of the relationship between the churches and then the governments around them?
这通常更多是来自我们这边，来自公教会的指控。 Often, that's more of a charge from our side, from the Catholic Church.
这其中有真实性吗？ Is there any truth to that?
我认为这其中确实有很多真实性。 I think there's a great deal of truth to it.
你能解释我这个术语的含义吗？ Can you explain what I mean by that term?
凯撒教皇主义意味着一个被凯撒统治的教会，被世俗权力主 导的教会，无论是拜占庭皇帝、沙皇，还是现代民族国家。 Caesaropapism means a Caesar-dominated Church, the Church dominated by temporal powers, whether it's the Byzantine Emperor, whether it's the Tsar, or whether it's the modern nation-state.
换句话说，东正教在其兴盛的国家中，一直处于某些世俗统治者的控制之 下——无论是拜占庭皇帝、沙皇，还是现代的希腊国家——这是一个国家 教会，政府总是干预教会的内部事务，就像中世纪的拜占庭皇帝那样。 In other words, Eastern Orthodoxy, in the countries where it has flourished, has always been under the thumb, under the control of some temporal ruler—the Byzantine Emperor, the Czar, or the modern, let's say, Greek state—which is a national church where the government is always interfering in the internal affairs of the Church, just as the Byzantine Emperor did in the Middle Ages.
因此，东正教一直遭受世俗或现世权力的控制。 So Eastern Orthodoxy has suffered from the control of secular or temporal powers.
你必须记住，东正教会，特别是中东和东欧的教会，现在因共产主义的垮台而获得自由 ，但几个世纪以来一直处于沙皇、奥斯曼土耳其人或后来的共产主义者的控制之下。 You have to remember that the Eastern Orthodox churches, especially those in the Middle East and in Eastern Europe, which are now free because of the fall of communism, for centuries were either under the control of the Tsar, under the Ottoman Turks, or under the communists later.
因此，几个世纪以来，东正教会遭受世俗权力对教会内部生活的干预，甚 至殉道，正如我们所知，数百万公教徒和东正教徒在苏联的压迫下丧生。 So for centuries, Eastern Orthodox churches have suffered from the interference of temporal powers in the internal life of the Church, even unto martyrdom, as we know from the millions of Catholics and Orthodox who died under Soviet oppression.
我们现在还知道红色中国对公教会的迫害，不是吗？ We still know about the persecution of the Catholic Church in Red China today, don't we?
这引出了另一个问题：东正教中的权威关系。 This gets us to another issue: the relationship of authority in the Orthodox Church.
权威在哪里？ Where is authority found?
如果我们在公教会中将彼得描述为权威，那么在面对新文化 和新问题时，谁来决定教义问题的权威或活的权威在哪里？ If we're describing Peter as the authority in the Catholic Church, where is authority or living authority to decide on doctrinal issues as they encounter new cultures and new issues?
这是东正教会的一大弱点。 This is one of the great weaknesses of the Eastern Orthodox churches.
没有教宗，就不可能有教义发展。 Without the Pope, there cannot be any dogmatic development.
他们没有无误的训导权，没有在宗主教和主教可能存在分歧的问题上做出决定的无误权威。 They don't have an infallible magisterium, an infallible authority to decide questions on which patriarchs and bishops might disagree.
这是东正教无法回答的重大问题之一。 That is one of the great questions that the Eastern Orthodox simply cannot answer.
如果出现异端或严重错误，宗主教和主教意见不一——比如在Filioque问 题上——中世纪有些希腊神学家并不认为Filioque有什么真正的问题。 If a heresy breaks out or a serious error, and patriarchs and bishops disagree—like, for example, on the Filioque—there were some Greek theologians in the Middle Ages who didn't see anything really wrong with the Filioque.
对他们来说，这不是异端，但其他人说这是异端。 To them, it was not a heresy, but others said it was a heresy.
现在，君士坦丁堡宗主教因为那个问题与罗马决裂，但为什么要相信君士坦丁堡宗 主教、莫斯科宗主教、保加利亚或塞尔维亚宗主教，而不相信教会中彼得的声音？ Now, the Patriarch of Constantinople broke with Rome because of that issue, but why should one believe the Patriarch of Constantinople, or the Patriarch of Moscow, or the Patriarch of Bulgaria or Serbia, as against the voice of Peter in the Church?
谁拥有在教义和教理方面教导的神圣使命？ Who has the divine commission to teach in matters of dogma and doctrine?
这是东正教无法回答的严肃问题。 That is a serious question the Eastern Orthodox cannot answer.
他们会谈论大公会议，认为教会的最高权威是大公会议，但是谁召集大公会议？ They will speak about ecumenical councils, that the supreme authority in the Church is an ecumenical council, but who calls an ecumenical council?
谁确认其法令？ Who confirms its decrees?
教会历史只表明一个声音：只有彼得的声音可以召集大公会议。 The history of the Church indicates only one voice: the voice of Peter can summon an ecumenical council.
即使在1439年的佛罗伦萨大公会议上，也可以看出凯撒教皇主义 对东正教的控制，当时希腊人明显认为只有皇帝可以召集大公会议。 Even as late as the Council of Florence in 1439, to show you the grip of Caesaropapism on the Eastern Orthodox, it was evident there that the Greeks believed only the emperor could call an ecumenical council.
当然，自与罗马分裂、与彼得宝座分离以来，他们在过去一千年 里无法召开大公会议，因此，东正教内部至今仍充满神学争议。 Since, of course, the schism with Rome, the separation from the Sea of Peter, they’ve been unable for the last thousand years to have an ecumenical council, and consequently, there’s no end to the theological disputes that rage among the Eastern Orthodox today.
这是一些新教徒的错误——事实上，现在有大量新教徒被东正教吸引。 It’s a mistake of some evangelicals—yeah, there’s a large number, in fact, of evangelicals that are attracted to Orthodoxy today.
是的，原因当然是源于宏伟礼仪的伟大灵性。 Yes, and the reasons, of course, are the great spirituality flowing from the magnificent liturgies.
我们公教徒应该认真思考本堂区的礼仪庆典，因为许多人已经疏远， 看到拉丁礼许多堂区弥撒的庆祝方式，这对东正教来说是一种丑闻。 We Catholics should think very seriously about liturgical celebration in our own parishes because many have been alienated, and it’s a scandal of the Eastern Orthodox to see the way in which the Mass is celebrated in many of our Latin Rite parishes.
新教徒喜欢那种东方灵性，喜欢礼仪的宇宙观，喜欢末世论的方面，喜欢按照这 些宏伟的东方礼仪（如圣金口若望礼仪）正确庆祝时所带来的超世界的方面。 Evangelicals love that Eastern spirituality, that cosmic view of the liturgy, the eschatological aspect, the otherworldly aspect that the liturgy brings in its proper celebration according to these magnificent Eastern rites, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and so on.
这就是东正教的吸引力：宏伟的礼仪，教会如同地上的天堂 ，礼仪的庆祝能使你思想圣母、圣徒和基督教的整个辉煌。 So that’s an attractive feature of Eastern Orthodoxy: the magnificent liturgy, where the Church is heaven on earth, and the celebration of the liturgy lifts you to thoughts of the Blessed Virgin and the saints and the whole splendor of Christianity.
我知道我交谈过的一些人确实被使徒的见证、使徒的联系和历史观点所吸引。 I know that some that I’ve talked to are certainly drawn to the apostolic witness, the apostolic connection, the historical view.
我读过的一些人——转向东正教的新教徒——几乎是在看到彼 得的问题时，他们最初就说：我无法接受，所以就继续前进。 Some that I’ve even read about—evangelicals who have gone to Orthodoxy—it's almost like when they look at the issue of Peter, they originally say, I can’t accept that, so they move on.
我是说，他们没有深入思考。 I mean, they don’t give it much thought.
我仍然认为教宗权威是决定两者的根本问题。 I still think that the issue of papal authority is the rock-bottom issue in deciding one or the other.
所有教义都取决于权威。 All dogma depends upon authority.
对于东正教，尽管他们有有效的祭司和有效的主教制度，但他们缺乏合一。 With the Eastern Orthodox, even though they have valid priests and a valid episcopate, nevertheless, they lack oneness.
他们缺乏基督在祂教会中建立的合一，因为这个合一是不可分割的。 They lack the unity that Christ established in His Church because the unity is indivisible.
在东正教中，你有所有这些自主教会——独立的国家教会—— 但没有可见的合一纽带将它们团结成一个企业或有机组织。 Among the Orthodox, you have all these autocephalous churches—independent national churches—but there is no visible bond of unity that unites them into one corporate or organic organism.
换句话说，他们缺乏基督以彼得为中心建立的合一。 In other words, they lack the unity that Christ established with a center of unity in Peter.
圣安波罗修说：彼得在哪里，教会就在哪里。 Where Peter is, there is the Church, said St. Ambrose.
如果你仔细研究他们的历史和他们内部正在发生的现代神学争议，你会发现 在关键问题上存在很大的意见分歧，并且偏离了他们如此珍视的使徒传统。 If you study their history very carefully and the modern theological disputes taking place among them, you’ll find a great variety of opinions on key issues and also a deviation from that apostolic tradition that they prize so much.
就离婚教义而言，离婚和避孕是被允许的；在东正教中，这些道德罪恶没 有受到谴责，因为他们没有彼得的声音来教导他们这些重要主题的真理。 In terms of, let’s say, the doctrine of divorce, divorce and contraception are permissible; there is no condemnation of these moral evils among the Eastern Orthodox because they have no voice with Peter to teach them the truth on these very important subjects.
请花点时间描述希腊东正教和东仪礼公教徒之间的区别。 Let’s take a moment, if you would, and describe the difference between the Greek Orthodox and the Eastern Rite Catholics.
让我们的听众确保理解这些区别。 Let our audience make sure they understand the distinctions.
东仪礼公教徒，或与圣座共融的东方教会，是那些因佛罗伦萨大公会议、 布列斯特-利托夫斯克大公会议或其他一些小型大公会议而重返公教会合 一的东方教会，在这些会议上，许多东方主教巩固了与彼得宝座的合一。 Eastern Rite Catholics, or the Eastern churches in communion with the Holy See, are those Eastern churches that returned to Catholic unity because of, let’s say, the Council of Florence or the Council of Brest-Litovsk or some other minor councils that took place where a number of Eastern bishops solidified their unity with the See of Peter.
基本上，他们拥有相同的礼仪、相同的灵性，以 及源自东方教父和教会博士的丰富教义宝库。 Basically, they have the same liturgy, the same spirituality, the same rich doctrinal treasures flowing from the Eastern Fathers and Doctors of the Church.
他们是一样的。 They’re the same.
将他们分开的是，东正教仍然与彼得宝座的合一相分离。 What separates them is that the Eastern Orthodox remain separated from unity with the Chair of Peter.
我收到一个问题——我记不清是电子邮件还是信件 ——关于公教徒参观东正教堂或参加东正教婚礼。 One of the questions I received from a person—I can’t remember if it was an email or a letter—had to do with Catholics visiting Orthodox churches or attending an Orthodox wedding.
公教徒与东正教的关系中，什么是有效的？ What’s valid for Catholics in their relationship to Orthodoxy?
过去几个世纪的教宗一直鼓励公教徒更好地了解他们的东仪礼弟兄，也更多地了 解东正教——俄罗斯东正教、希腊东正教、塞尔维亚东正教和其他国家教会。 The popes for the last centuries have encouraged Catholics to know their Eastern Rite brethren better and also to know more about the Eastern Orthodox—the Russian Orthodox, the Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, and the other national churches.
公教徒被鼓励参加这些宏伟的礼仪，以更好地了解他们分离的弟兄。 Catholics are encouraged to attend these magnificent liturgies to know their separated brethren better.
如果东正教不允许公教徒领圣餐，公教徒可以领圣餐吗？ Can Catholics receive the Eucharist if the Orthodox do not allow Catholics to receive the Eucharist?
俄罗斯东正教曾在几年前承认这一点，后来又撤回了。 There was a time when the Russian Orthodox admitted that a few years ago, and then they rescinded that.
在这些事情上，公教会的纪律在某种意义上更加仁慈。 The Catholic discipline in these matters is, in a sense, more charitable.
在有需要的情况下，我们允许东正教徒领受圣体、告解和病人傅油圣事。 We allow Eastern Orthodox, where there is need, to receive the sacraments of the Eucharist, penance, and the anointing of the sick where there is real need.
他们对七件圣事的信仰是毫无疑问的。 There’s no question of their belief in the seven sacraments.
正如我之前说的，东正教在统计上可以说是98-96%的公教。 The Eastern Orthodox, as I said before, to use a statistic, let’s say 98-96% Catholic.
但他们仍然缺乏与彼得宝座的合一，这造成了可见教会的合一— —我们信经所说的合一：是的，独一、圣洁、大公和使徒的。 But they still lack that unity with the Sea of Peter, which makes for the oneness of the visible Church—the oneness that our Creed talks about: Yes, one holy, Catholic, and apostolic.
人们有时会想知道新教徒在背诵信经时，对这些词有 什么理解：我们信一个圣洁、大公和使徒的教会。 One wonders sometimes what Protestants think these words mean when they recite the words of the Creed: We believe in one holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.
我们知道，例如路德在宗教改革期间，去掉了'大公'一词，并将使徒信经改为基督教会。 We know that Luther, for example, during the Reformation, got rid of the word Catholic and changed the Apostles' Creed to the Christian Church.
但有许多新教徒仍然背诵尼西亚-君士坦丁堡信经：独一、圣洁、大公和使徒的教会。 But there are many Protestants who recite that Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed: one holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.
人们会想知道他们对这些词有什么理解。 One wonders what they understand by those words.
教会要真正成为大公的，首先必须是合一的。 The Church, to be truly Catholic, must be at first one.
基督建立了一个教会。 Christ established one Church.
教宗若望保禄二世一再强调，基督徒保持分裂是多么大的丑闻。 The Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, over and over again has said what a great scandal it is for Christians to remain divided.
这对世界是什么样的见证？ What kind of witness is that to the world?
我们的主在若望福音中祈祷，愿所有跟随者合而为一，使世界可以相信。 Our Lord, in the Gospel of St. John, prayed that all His followers would be one, that the world might believe.
因此，这是这位教宗任期的重大优先事项：医治和修 复过去的可怕悲剧，那些阻碍当代福音传播的分裂。 So this is one of the great priorities of this Pope's pontificate: to heal and to mend these terrible tragedies of the past, these schisms of the past, which impede the spread of the Gospel in our time.
你有一本书，不是关于你自己的皈依，而是关于结束拜 占庭-希腊分裂，书中确实有一个皈依的陈述，对吗？ You have a book out which isn't about your own conversion; it's about ending the Byzantine-Greek schism, and it does have a conversion statement in here, doesn't it?
是的，书中有14世纪一位平信徒神学家德米特里乌斯·基多尼斯 的精彩辩护，他曾是君士坦丁堡一位拜占庭皇帝的大臣和秘书。 Yes, it has a marvelous apology or defense of Catholicism by a 14th-century lay theologian, Dimitrius Kidonis, who was the chancellor and the secretary to one of the Byzantine emperors at Constantinople.
他对教宗制度和Filioque有非常有趣的辩护。 He has a very interesting defense of the papacy and the Filioque.
Filioque当然意味着'并且从子'，即圣灵从圣父和圣子发出。 The Filioque, of course, means and the Son, as in the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
为什么公教会坚持这一点？ Why did Catholics insist upon that?
为了保护基督的神性。 To safeguard the divinity of Christ.
如果圣灵不是从祂发出，那么祂就不等同于圣父，圣父是圣灵发出的源头。 If the Holy Spirit did not proceed from Him, then He was not equal to the Father from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds.
我还注意到书中印有圣托马斯·阿奎那的一封信。 I also noticed in here that you print a letter of St. Thomas Aquinas.
这是一篇论文——这个针对希腊人的著名论文。 It’s a treatise—this famous treatise against the Greeks.
他收到了一位希腊主教的文章，这篇文章被翻译 成拉丁文，乌尔班四世教宗请他对此发表意见。 He was given a writing by one of the Greek bishops, which was translated into Latin, and Pope Urban IV asked him to give an opinion on this.
因此他写了这篇非常有趣的论文，其中有对彼得首席地位的精彩辩护。 So he wrote this very interesting treatise where there's a marvelous defense of the primacy of Peter.
这是我在大学学习时的事情之一，我对圣托马斯·阿奎那印象深刻， 并试图阅读他关于教宗制度和Filioque问题的所有著作。 That's one of the things that, when I was studying at the university, I was very impressed by St. Thomas Aquinas and tried to read everything he did on the questions of the papacy and the Filioque.
这本书是那段经历的一个小小记录。 This book is sort of a little record of that.
你会说这是一本公教徒可以送给东正教朋友或想更多了解的人的好书吗？ Would you say this is a good book for a Catholic to give to an Orthodox friend or someone that's seeking to understand more?
我这么认为。 I think so.
我认为这样的读者会对公教思想从最初的一千年到现在的连续性印象深刻。 I think such a reader would be impressed by the continuity of Catholic thinking from the first thousand years right to the present.
我认为这本书适合放在想知道为什么公教徒这样思考的东正教徒手中。 I think the book would be good to put into the hands of an Eastern Orthodox who wants to know why Catholics think the way they do.
这本书的优势在于——我会说，尽管我可能有些偏 见——对东正教会论及其缺陷进行了出色的分析。 The book has the advantage of being, I would say—and I'm somewhat prejudiced—an excellent analysis of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology and its defects.
好的，非常感谢你，吉姆。 All right, well thank you, Jim.
请继续和我们在一起。 Please stay with us.
我们马上回来，为大家准备提问环节，询问吉姆·拉库迪斯 关于他个人的信仰历程，以及关于东正教和公教会的问题。 We'll be back in just a moment for your questions for Jim Lakoudis about his own journey and also questions about the Orthodox Church versus the Catholic Church.
马上回来。 Be back in just a moment.
欢迎回到《归家之旅》。 Welcome back to The Journey Home.
今晚的嘉宾是詹姆斯·拉库迪斯。 My guest for this evening is James Lakoudis.
我们一直在讨论他从东正教信仰转向公教会的历程。 We've been talking about his journey from the Eastern Orthodox faith into the Catholic Church.
我们还提到了他关于结束拜占庭-希腊分裂的书，你可能在休息期间看到了。 We've also mentioned his book on ending the Byzantine Greek schism, which you may have seen during the break.
关于他的书的电话号码将在节目后面公布。 The phone number where you can find out the information about his book will be later in the program.
我再次推荐这本书，你可以与来自东正教背景的人分享。 Also, I recommend that again as a book one that you can share with those who come from an Eastern Orthodox background.
让我们开始第一封电子邮件。 Let's begin with our first email, if we would.
吉姆，这是来自杰森的邮件。 Jim, this comes from Jason.
信中说：亲爱的马库斯和嘉宾，你们认为罗马公教会和分离的东正教 会是否接近完全共融，或者目前两个教会的完全共融是否不可能？ It says, Dear Marcus and guest, do you think that the Roman Catholic Church and the separated Orthodox churches are close to a full communion, or is full communion between the two churches impossible at this time?
我不断祈祷，希望两个教会有朝一日能够重新团结。 I pray and pray that the two will one day be reunited.
谢谢你，杰森。 Thank you, Jason.
吉姆，你怎么看？ What do you think on that, Jim?
我认为很接近。 I think it's close.
毫无疑问，亚典纳戈拉斯宗主教、德米特里乌斯宗主教，以及现在 的巴尔托洛缪宗主教都非常开放重聚，这是教宗的伟大希望——有 朝一日，在东方教会的宗主教环绕下，他们可以一起庆祝圣餐。 There's no question that Patriarch Athenagoras, Patriarch Demetrius, and now Patriarch Bartholomew are very open to reunion, and this is the great hope of the Holy Father—that one day, surrounded by the patriarchs of the Eastern churches, they can celebrate the Eucharist together.
这将是与我们分离的弟兄重建可见教会合一的伟大体现。 That would be the great manifestation of the restored visible unity of the Church with our separated brethren.
很有可能在几年内召开另一个重大的合一大公会议。 It's quite possible that another great ecumenical council of union might very well meet in a few years.
我们必须明白，在东正教中存在一些问题，那里明显存在某种新教化的趋势。 We have to understand that there are problems among the Eastern Orthodox insofar as there is a kind of Protestantization that is also evident there.
存在不同的思想潮流：一种是趋向公教化的潮流，对与罗马合一持开放态度；另一 方面，有一些顽固分子受反罗马情结影响，希望维持他们那悲剧性的非理性分裂。 There are different intellectual currents: a Catholicizing current, where you've got a certain openness to unity with Rome; on the other hand, you've got the hardheads who want to remain in that tragic, irrational schism of theirs, influenced by a sort of anti-Roman complex.
我们还必须理解，东正教已经受到一些新教针对教宗制度的论战影响。 We have to understand also that Eastern Orthodoxy has been influenced by some of the Protestant polemics against the papacy.
但存在这些不同的思想潮流：一种是趋向公教化的潮流，另一种是新教化和世俗化的潮流。 But you've got these different currents of thought: you've got a Catholicizing current, and you've got a Protestantizing and secularizing current.
现在出现了现代历史上的新情况，即东正教会首次面对一个彻底世俗的社会。 Now you have a novel situation occurring in modern history, namely that for the first time, the Eastern Orthodox churches are confronted by a thoroughly secular society.
这是非常新的事物，是俄罗斯东正教的伟大皈依者弗 拉基米尔·索洛维约夫的追随者正在处理的问题。 That is something terribly new, and that is something that the followers of, let’s say, the great convert to Russian Orthodoxy, Vladimir Soloviev, are addressing.
这里有一些他在俄罗斯的追随者说，面对日益不人道和灭 绝性的世俗社会，东正教的唯一出路就是与罗马合一。 Here are some of his followers in Russia who say that the only answer to the problems of Eastern Orthodoxy, being confronted by an increasingly inhumane and genocidal secular society, is unity with Rome.
所以存在这些不同的思想潮流，我认为我们应该非常乐观。 So you have these different currents of thought, and it seems to me that we should be very optimistic.
法蒂玛圣母不是承诺了俄罗斯的皈依吗？ Didn't Our Lady of Fatima promise the conversion of Russia?
我一直理解这意味着一个公教的俄罗斯，将重新履行上世纪一些俄罗斯哲学家 谈论的伟大使命，他们似乎认为俄罗斯有一个特殊的使命去改变伊斯兰教。 I've always understood that to mean a Catholic Russia, which will renew its great mission that some of the Russian philosophers talked about in the last century, who seemed to ascribe to Russia a special mission to convert Islam.
公教徒和东正教徒在俄罗斯遭受的可怕的十字架式 迫害，可能正是这个公教俄罗斯新使命的沃土。 It may very well be that the terrible crucifying persecutions that both Catholics and Orthodox suffered in Russia are the seed ground for this new mission of a Catholic Russia.
他们将从未来几年可能举行的重聚大公会议中涌现。 They will emerge from a reunion council being held perhaps within the next few years.
当你看到这种开放性时，你认为它更多地存在于东正教的等级制度还是平信徒中？ When you see this openness, do you see it more or less in the hierarchy of the Orthodox churches or in the laity?
平信徒中是否有同样的开放性？ Is there as much openness amongst the laity?
我认为平信徒中存在更大的开放性，但东正教会中也有一些致力于合 一的主教，他们也希望能召开一个解决这些分歧的重聚大公会议。 I think there is a greater openness among the laity, but there are some ecumenically-minded bishops among the Eastern Orthodox churches who also look to hopefully a reunion council that will settle these differences.
让我们接听第一个来电。 Let's take our first caller.
这是来自康涅狄格州的彼得。 This is Peter from Connecticut.
你好，彼得。 Hello, Peter.
今晚你有什么问题？ What's your question for us tonight?
是的，我是罗马礼公教徒，但过去十年我参与了联合礼之一的默基特 礼，我发现它有美丽的礼仪，特别是在和好圣事的庆祝上非常美。 Yes, I'm a Roman Rite Catholic, but for the last ten years, I've participated in one of the Uniate rites, the Melkite rite, which I find has a beautiful liturgy, a beautiful celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation especially.
我发现越来越多的罗马礼公教徒参加我所在地区 的默基特礼，我认为这里可能存在一座桥梁。 I find more and more Roman Rite Catholics attending the Melkite rite where I live, and I find that there's a possibility of a bridge there.
我想知道这位先生对此有何看法。 I wondered what the gentleman thinks of that.
我知道教宗也认为联合礼教会、罗马和东正教会 之间可能存在桥梁，我想听听他对此的看法。 Well, I know the Holy Father thinks there might be a bridge there too between the Uniate churches and Rome and the Orthodox churches, the more Orthodox churches, and I'd just like to hear his comment on that.
好的，谢谢你，彼得。 All right, thank you, Peter.
东仪礼公教会——过去一个世纪的教宗们一直期望他们与东正教同仁 进行对话和研究，以克服我们的分歧，因此他们扮演着重要角色。 Well, the Eastern Rite Catholic churches—the Holy Fathers over the last century have looked to them to proceed with dialogue and study with their Orthodox fellow counterparts in order to overcome our divisions, so they have a great role to play.
教宗在《愿他们合而为一》和《东方的光》这两封书信中提到，如果公教徒不为此 祈祷，这个教宗任期最高优先事项——与东方的合一——就不会取得任何进展。 One of the things that the Pope has mentioned in those two epistolary letters, Ut Unum Sint and Orientale Lumen, is that you will not have ecumenism making any progress with this highest priority of this Pope's pontificate, namely union with the East, if Catholics do not pray for it.
我们在美国有数百万公教徒，但这完全不在他们的思考范围内。 We have millions of Catholics in the United States, and this isn't on their mental horizon at all.
但他们必须明白，在若望保禄二世看来，这个教宗任期的最高优先事项 是与分离的东方教会合一，因为我们需要他们对传统的感知，需要他们 对美丽礼仪庆典的感知，需要他们对东方教父和东方教会博士的感知。 But they've got to understand that to the mind of Pope John Paul II, the highest priority of this pontificate is union with the separated Eastern churches because we need their sense of tradition, we need their sense of beautiful liturgical celebration, and we need their sense of the great Fathers of the East and the Doctors of the Church in the East.
在我们面对越来越世俗化、可悲地说，越来越无神论的现代人时，他们的见证至关重要。 Their witness today, as we confront modern man who is increasingly secular and, sad to say, atheistic, is vital.
从若望保禄二世的第一道通谕开始，一直到大禧 年，祈祷重聚，这不是一条始终如一的主线吗？ Hasn't it been a common thread, a constant thread, from John Paul’s first encyclical all the way through, pointing ahead to the great Jubilee when the prayer was that there would be this reunion?
当然，这需要我们一直以来的祈祷和伸出援手的努力。 And of course, that needed our prayer all along and our work to reach out.
有一位特拉普修女玛利亚·加布里埃拉住在罗马郊外的格 罗塔费拉塔修道院，她完全奉献自己的生命为教会合一。 There was this marvelous Trappistine nun who lived in a monastery in Grottaferrata outside of Rome, Blessed Maria Gabriella, who gave her life totally for the union of the churches.
她所有的牺牲，还有圣利奥波多·达卡斯特尔努奥沃——这位嘉布遣会神 父约在1947年去世，他奉献了所有的工作、所有的苦难、所有听到的 告解——每天15小时，持续50年——为东方教会与罗马的合一。 All her sacrifices, and the same thing with St. Leopoldo of Castelnuovo, a marvelous Capuchin priest who died about 1947. St. Leopoldo offered all his works, all his sufferings, all the confessions that he heard—15 hours a day for 50 years—for the union of the Eastern churches with Rome.
他被若望保禄二世封圣。所以我们有两位了不起的主保，还有 乌克兰的大圣人若撒法，他在17世纪为教会的合一而殉道。 He was canonized by John Paul II. So we have two marvelous patrons, also the great Ukrainian saint, St. Josaphat, who died a martyr for the unity of the Church in the 17th century.
所以我们有这些伟大的见证人，一群为教会合一祈 祷的见证人，但我们需要天主子民的祈祷和仁爱。 So we have these great witnesses, a cloud of witnesses praying for the union of the churches, but we need the prayer of the Catholic people of God for this prayer and charity.
好的，让我们看下一封电子邮件。 Yes, let's take our next email.
好问题！ Good question!
这是来自伊女士的问题：如何从希腊东正教皈依公教会？ This comes from Mrs. Yee: How does one convert from a Greek Orthodox to a Catholic?
是否必须参加慕道班或特别课程？ Do you have to attend RCIA or a special program?
皈依的过程是什么？ What is the process of converting?
我很喜欢这个节目。 I'm enjoying the show.
愿天主祝福你。 God bless you.
基本上，要做信仰宣誓，东正教正在发现的问题之一是他们自身的神学混乱。 Well, I think basically to make a profession of faith, one of the problems that the Orthodox are discovering is their own theological confusion.
有些东正教徒认为公教徒需要重新受洗、重新领受坚振，甚至重新祝圣。 There are some Orthodox who think Catholics need to be rebaptized, or to be reconfirmed, or even to be reordained.
他们之间对圣事存在一些混乱。 There’s some confusion concerning the sacraments among them.
但对于想要真正成为公教徒的希腊东正教徒来说，他们应该——嗯，他们必须做信仰宣誓。 But for Greek Orthodox people who want to be authentically Catholic, they should—well, they have to make a profession of faith.
他们可能需要在一位好神父指导下或在一个好的课程中学习信仰。 Presumably, they should have some study of the faith with a good priest or in a good program.
希望慕道班能使用《天主教教理》；这可能是一个很好的起点。 Hopefully, the RCIA program will use the Catechism of the Catholic Church; that’s probably a good place to begin.
是的，我认为每个人都应该有一本《天主教教理》，你会注 意到它的美妙之处，即它融合了东仪礼公教会的许多见证。 Yes, I think everyone should have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and you notice one of its beauties, namely that it incorporates much of the witness of the Eastern Catholic churches.
伟大的希腊教父和在东方举行的教会大公会议都是这部精彩教理的一部分。 The great Greek Fathers and the councils of the Church held in the East are all a part of that marvelous Catechism.
让我们接听下一个来电。 Let's take our next caller.
这是来自德克萨斯州的帕特。 This is Pat from Texas.
你好，帕特。 Hello, Pat.
你有什么问题？ What's your question?
晚上好，拉库迪斯先生。 Hello, good evening, Mr. Lakoudis.
我有一个问题。 I have a question.
东正教如何在不承认彼得首席地位的情况下有效地处理教义和信条？ How does the Orthodox Church function effectively vis-à-vis doctrine and dogma without recognizing the primacy of Peter?
谢谢你，帕特。 Thank you, Pat.
问题是他们做不到，而且确实没有做到。自分裂以来，教义发展就已经停滞。 Well, the point is they can't, and they haven't. The dogmatic development has stopped since the schism.
因为他们没有能够教导整个教会的权威声音，我的意思是， 教会可见首领的职能是能够对信仰和道德做出最终判断。 Since they have no authoritative voice that can teach the entire Church, I mean, the function of the visible head of the Church is to be able to give a definitive judgment on faith and morals.
在分离的希腊宗主教和主教中，没有人拥有教导 整个教会并解决教义和信条争议的神圣使命。 Among the Greek separated patriarchs and bishops, there is no one who has that divine commission to teach the entire Church and to settle doctrinal and dogmatic disputes.
所以他们就这样持续下去。 So they go on and on.
在过去的一千年里，教会确实有一些问题发生了变化，比如女性在教会和礼仪中的参与。 There have certainly been a number of issues that have changed over the last thousand years in the churches, like maybe the involvement of women in their churches and maybe in liturgy.
这些决定是民主做出的吗？ Were those decisions made democratically?
新的变化是这样做出决定的吗，还是它们只是在 教会中自然演变，然后教会就接受这种演变？ Is that how the decisions are made as new changes are made, or do they just kind of evolve in the churches and they just accept their evolution?
你是指在东正教中？ You mean among the Orthodox?
是的，在东正教中。 Among the Orthodox, yeah.
一般来说，东正教喜欢通过主教会议，这是一个非常古老的原则。 Generally speaking, among the Eastern Orthodox, they like to work through synods, this conciliar principle, which is a very ancient principle.
问题是，除非主教们与彼得在一起并服从彼得，否则你无 法有效地运作所谓的共议性，或者我们称之为同事制。 The problem is you can't have an effective functioning of what you might call conciliarity, or what we would call collegiality, among the bishops unless they are with and under Peter.
换句话说，同事制只有在有合一中心和可见的教会首领，能够召集大公 会议、主持大公会议并确认其法令和宣言的情况下才能运作，这就是第 二次梵蒂冈大公会议发生的情况。好的，让我们看下一封电子邮件。 In other words, collegiality only works where you have a center of unity and a visible head of the Church that can convoke councils, preside over councils, and confirm their decrees and declarations, which is what happened in Vatican II. All right, let's take this next email.
这是来自华盛顿湖木市的玛琳。 This comes from Marlene in Lakewood, Washington.
亲爱的马库斯和詹姆斯，感谢这个有趣的节目。 Dear Marcus and James, thank you for the interesting program.
若望保禄二世在整个教宗任期内都强调与东正教的对话。 Pope John Paul II has emphasized dialogue with the Orthodox throughout his pontificate.
我必须承认我对这些问题了解不多；但是我听说过巴拉蒙德声明。 I must admit I don't know much about these issues; however, I did hear about a Balamand statement.
你们熟悉这个吗？能简单解释一下吗？ Are you familiar with this, and could you briefly explain it?
非常感谢。 Thank you very much.
那是一个来自中东和黎巴嫩的声明，一些东正教主教 和公教主教做了一个共同声明，希望推进合一事业。 That was a statement that came out of the Middle East and Lebanon, where a number of Eastern Orthodox bishops and Catholic bishops made a sort of a common statement, hopefully to advance the cause of unity.
他们指出的一点是，我们必须摒弃传教主义，即任何不 公平的策略，强迫人们的良心成为公教徒或东正教徒。 One of the things they pointed out is we have to do away with proselytism, namely any kind of unfair tactics, you know, forcing people's consciences to become either Catholic or Orthodox.
我们不能在这种策略持续的情况下进行真正的合一运动，这是过去悲伤的遗产之一。 We can't have any kind of genuine ecumenism with that sort of tactic going on, which was one of the sad legacies of the past.
因此，巴拉蒙德声明确实有一些非常积极的方面。 So the Balamand statement has certain very positive aspects to it.
特别是在默基特教会中，不幸的是，存在某种反罗马情结，他们想要回避教义 问题，只讨论慈善和社会合作，但实际上并没有真正面对所涉及的教义问题。 There have been a number of, among the Melkites especially, unfortunately, a certain anti-Roman complex, where they sort of want to get away from the doctrinal issues and just have discussions on charity and social working together, but not really coming to grips with the doctrinal issues involved.
当然，如今最大的问题是教宗制度。 The big one, of course, being today the papacy.
在中世纪，东正教提出了大约一百个不同的问题，并指责公教会为异端。 In the Middle Ages, there were about a hundred different issues that the Eastern Orthodox brought up on which they censured Catholics for heresy.
但是，当今最好的神学家已经摒弃了所有那些中世纪的附加内容，直指核心问题。 But of course, the best theologians today have gotten rid of all those medieval accretions and come down to the real issues.
这就是对话所成就的事情之一：对方的真正立场是什么？ That’s one of the things that dialogue accomplishes: where does the other fellow really stand?
抛开心理的、社会学的、历史的附加内容；让我们直面真正分裂 我们的事情，以便我们能冷静、理性地讨论，并遵循使徒传统。 Forget the psychological, the sociological, the historical accretions; let’s get down to the real things that divide us so we can discuss them dispassionately and calmly and in accordance with the apostolic tradition.
谢谢你，吉姆。 Thank you, Jim.
让我们接听下一个来电。 Let’s take our next caller.
这是来自新泽西州的汤姆。 This is Tom from New Jersey.
你好，汤姆。 Hello, Tom.
今晚你有什么问题？ What’s your question for us tonight?
你好，格罗迪先生。 Hi, Mr. Grodi.
你为教会做了无价的工作。 You do invaluable work for the Church.
谢谢。 Thank you.
拉库迪斯先生，你也是信仰的伟大见证人。 And Mr. Lakoudis, you’re a great witness to the faith as well.
我希望没有人因为这些分歧而不去阅读东正教的伟 大灵修著作，从沙漠教父到亚历山大·施迈曼。 I hope no one’s dissuaded by some of these issues that separate us from reading some of the great spiritual works of the Orthodox, from the Desert Fathers to Alexander Schmemann.
我想到了《为世界的生命》。 I’m thinking of For the Life of the World.
他们的神秘成分，特别是在礼仪和圣事方面，往往是西方不太强调的。 Their mystical component, especially with liturgy and the sacraments, tends to be something not often emphasized in the West.
我有两个问题。 I have two questions.
首先，你认为教会分裂在多大程度上可以归因于希腊语对拉丁语的势利态度？ First, how much of the division between the churches do you think, for lack of a better word, may be attributed to snobbery by the Greek language against the Latin language?
我知道某些希腊人认为不会说希腊语的人几乎是野蛮人 ，而拉丁语本身比希腊语更加法律化，也不那么丰富。 I know certain Greeks consider anyone who doesn’t speak Greek to be almost a barbarian, and the Latin language in itself is much more legalistic and less rich than the Greek language.
好的，这是第一个问题。 That’s fine; that was the first question.
嗯，我认为这确实有一定道理。 Well, I think there’s something to that.
这可以追溯到亚里士多德和柏拉图的时代，当时如果你不是希腊人，就被视为野蛮人。 It goes way back to the times of Aristotle and Plato, where if you were not a Greek, you were a barbarian.
对东方教父和教会博士的成就，存在着知识上的自豪和真诚的自豪感。 There is this sense of intellectual pride and genuine pride in the achievements of the Eastern Fathers and Doctors of the Church.
但不幸的是，在中世纪，这成为了合一的障碍。 But unfortunately, in the Middle Ages, it became a barrier to union.
我们不能有那种导致优越感的知识傲慢，这对对方来说可能非常令人恼火。 We can't have that kind of intellectual pride which causes a sense of superiority, which can be very aggravating to the other side.
你知道，若望保禄二世号召我们在这三年里为禧年做准备。 Well, you know, John Paul has called us to prepare for the Jubilee in these three years.
他号召我们和教会要回顾过去我们也应该负责的方面——我的过错。 One of the things he's called us and the Church to do is to look at ways in the past that we're to blame as well—mea culpa.
所以我们回顾分裂的领域。 So we look back on the areas of division.
是否有一些我们回顾时会想，嗯，也许这些事情是我们造成的？ Were there areas in which we look back and think, Well, maybe some of those things were caused by us?
我们都是罪人，这是若望保禄二世著作中的一个强烈趋势，呼吁公教 徒要谦卑，不要有优越感，不要抨击我们在西方或东方分离的弟兄。 We're all sinners, and that’s a very strong trend in the writings of Pope John Paul II, calling for the conversion of Catholics to be humble and not to have superiority complexes, and not to rail against our separated brethren, whether in the West or in the East.
必须有爱，但总是在真理的背景下。 There must be love, but always in the context of truth.
不要为了迎合或屈从世俗社会的风气而牺牲真理，这对如 今生活在美国文化中的任何基督徒来说都是巨大的诱惑。 You don't sacrifice truth for the sake of going along to get along or capitulating to the mores of secular society, which is a tremendous temptation for any kind of Christian living in American culture today.
我们正处于一场文化大战中，除非我们在基督建立在彼得磐石上 的唯一可见教会中恢复团结，否则我们无法赢得这场文化战争。 We're in a great culture war, and we're not going to win that culture war unless we restore unity among ourselves as believing Christians in the one visible Church that Christ established on the rock of Peter.
好的，我们的时间很快就要用完了，但我想再回答一些问题。 Well, we're running out of time quickly, but I want to get to a bunch more questions.
我知道我们还有另一个电话和一封电子邮件，但有一个问题我想快 速提出，这是我在监视器上看到的一个来电者的问题，那就是，为 什么东正教的礼仪看起来比我们在拉丁礼中遇到的问题要少？ I know we have another phone call and another email, but we had one question I want to throw out real quickly, and that is—and this was a question that I saw on the monitor from one of our phone callers—and that is, why does it look like there are fewer problems in the Eastern Orthodox, let's say, in terms of the liturgy than we might encounter in the Latin rites?
很简单，因为他们没有经历西方公教徒在第二次梵 蒂冈大公会议的误解和扭曲方面所经历的事情。 Well, simply because they didn't go through what Catholics in the West have gone through in terms of the misinterpretations and distortions of the Second Vatican Council.
在我们许多堂区发生的事情——我可以从亲身经历说起——你所看到的小丑 弥撒、波尔卡舞弥撒和其他一些暴行与第二次梵蒂冈大公会议毫无关系。 What is happening in many of our parishes—and I can speak from firsthand experience here—what you see in terms of clown masses and polka masses and some of these other atrocities taking place has got nothing to do with the Second Vatican Council.
但美国公教徒，尤其是，已经成为文化的受害者。 But American Catholics, especially, have become victimized by the culture.
这是一种堕落的文化，它已经渗透到教会中，这无疑阻碍了 与一些东正教朋友的合一，他们认为一些公教徒已经疯了。 It's a decadent culture, and it's won its way into the Church, and that certainly is an impediment to union with some of our Eastern Orthodox friends who think that some Catholics have gone crazy.
让我们看下一封电子邮件。 Let’s take this next email.
这是来自克莱尔·奥尔森的邮件。 This comes from Claire Olson.
她说：亲爱的马库斯和拉库迪斯先生，因为最后 的晚餐是逾越节的纪念，显然餐桌上有无酵饼。 She says, Dear Marcus and Mr. Lakoudis, because the Last Supper was a commemoration of the Passover, obviously there was unleavened bread at the meal.
既然耶稣使用了无酵饼，为什么东正教会使用有酵饼，他们是何时采用这个立场的？ Since Jesus used unleavened bread, why do the Orthodox churches use leavened bread, and when did they adopt that position?
这是一个非常古老的做法。 That’s a very ancient practice.
显然，在早期教会，两种面包都被使用：有酵饼或无酵饼。 Apparently, in the early Church, both kinds of bread were used: leavened bread or unleavened bread.
在东方，除了亚美尼亚人，早在亚美尼亚教会的6世纪就 有无酵饼，到7或8世纪，它在整个西方已经很普遍。 In the East, except for the Armenians, as early as the 6th century in the Armenian Church, you're going to have unleavened bread, and certainly by the 7th or 8th century, it became common throughout the West.
无酵饼，圣祭饼，开始普遍使用。 Unleavened bread, the wafer, came into common use.
有些东正教徒认为使用无酵饼是异端，但这并不代表东正教会的官方立场。 There are some Orthodox who think that the use of unleavened bread is heretical, but that doesn't really represent an official position of the Eastern Orthodox churches.
这是当今合一运动讨论中的一大问题：东正教会 对与公教会有关的教义问题的官方立场是什么？ That’s one of the great problems in the discussions on ecumenism today: what are the official positions of the Eastern Orthodox Church on the doctrinal issues at stake with Catholics?
有些东正教徒说Filioque是异端；其他人说是可以接受的。 Some Orthodox say the Filioque is heretical; others say it is acceptable.
有些人说公教徒的洗礼必须重新施洗；其他人说不需要。 Some say Catholics' baptisms have to be rebaptized; others say no.
这些问题东正教尚未以任何明确的方式解决。 You've got a whole host of these matters that the Orthodox have not been able to settle in any definitive way.
好的，我们接听下一个来电。 All right, we'll take our next caller.
德鲁·伍德，你好！ Drew Wood, hello!
你叫什么名字？从哪里打来电话？ What's your name and where are you calling from?
我是马克。 This is Mark.
是的，你好，马克。 Yes, hello, Mark.
你好，马库斯。 Hi, Marcus.
我上周在圣芭芭拉教堂听过你的演讲。 I saw you speak at St. Barbara's earlier in the week.
哦，太好了！ Oh, great!
很高兴再次见到你。 Good to see you again.
我们总是在不断交谈。 We're always talking again.
马克，今晚你有什么问题？ What's your question for us tonight, Mark?
很简单：我们总是听说有大批新教徒加入教会。 Just short and simple: we always hear about the waves of Protestants coming into the Church.
我很想知道，有没有统计有多少东正教徒加入公教会？ Just wondering, are there any tabs on how many Orthodox people are coming into the Catholic Church?
谢谢。 Thank you.
谢谢你，马克。 Thanks, Mark.
那么，根据你的经验，你知道些什么？ Well, what do you know from your experience?
19世纪和我们这个时代有一些杰出的皈依者，比如海伦 ·伊兹姆尔斯基，她是一位颇负盛名的俄罗斯主题作家。 There are some remarkable converts from the 19th century, and in our own time, Helen Izmulski, for example, was quite a well-known writer on Russian themes.
还有英国的海伦·乔治亚德斯、本尼格森伯爵、伊万·普津纳，以及 我之前提到的弗拉基米尔·索洛维约夫的一些追随者——他们常被称 为俄罗斯的纽曼——他们在俄罗斯很活跃，并且非常开放合一。 Helen Georgiades in England, Count Bennigsen, Ivan Puzina, and as I mentioned before, some of the followers of Vladimir Soloviev—oftentimes called the Russian Newman—who were active in Russia and very open to unity.
所以有一些皈依者；正有少数人加入教会，希望随着对话和真诚的 合一运动增加，那些不了解公教会的东正教徒的态度会逐渐软化。 So there are some converts; a trickle is coming into the Church, and hopefully, as dialogue and genuine ecumenism increase, there’s going to be a softening of attitudes on the part of those Eastern Orthodox who just don’t understand the Catholic Church.
我认为在我的工作中与一些人交谈时，他们遇到的一个问题是礼仪中的荒谬现象。 I think what I’ve talked to some in my work is that one of the issues that does come up is this craziness in the liturgy that they encounter.
这是一个严重的问题，我认为我们的主教应该更加关注 这种疏远因素，它正阻碍与东方教会的真正合一运动。 It’s a serious problem, and I think our bishops should pay greater attention to this alienating factor, which is impeding real ecumenism with the Eastern churches.
例如，那些因为对本堂区发生的事情感到offended 而参加东仪礼公教会的公教徒，就是这幅画面的一部分。 The Catholics, for example, who attend Eastern Rite Catholic churches because they’re offended by what’s happening in their parishes are simply part of that picture.
如果听众有东正教朋友，有什么鼓励的话吗？ How about some words of encouragement to the audience if they have Orthodox friends?
他们如何接近这些朋友，并将公教信仰的完整性引入他们的生活？ How might they reach out to them and introduce the fullness of the Catholic faith into their lives?
在美国的公教徒中，常常是这样，你知道，在我成为公教徒之前，我要去韩国。 One of the things with Catholics on the American scene is oftentimes, you know, before I became a Catholic, I was going off to Korea.
我不知道是否会回来，所以决定做出这个举动。 I didn’t know whether I was coming back, so I decided to make that move.
但我从未遇到一个公教徒说：嘿，你对公教信仰感兴趣；为什么不成为公教徒呢？ But I never met a Catholic who said, Hey, you’re interested in the Catholic faith; why don’t you become a Catholic?
我从未遇到过这样的人，这还是过去好日子的时候。 I never met one, and these were the good old days.
但缺乏使徒的热忱，至少就我个人的经历而言。 But there was a lack of apostolic zeal, at least as far as my own experience went.
我的妻子也是从圣公会皈依公教会的。 My wife is also a convert to the Church from Episcopalianism.
她有一位非常好的公教朋友与她谈论教会，并引起 了她对教会的兴趣，结果她成为了一名公教徒。 She had a very good Catholic friend who spoke to her about the Church and interested her in the Church, and she became a Catholic as a result.
我们需要做更多这样的事——向他人伸出援手，公开谈论我们的信仰，询问他们对教会的合 一或联合有何看法，询问他们对教宗的看法，询问他们对差异的看法，并鼓励他们祈祷。 We need to do more of that—to reach out to others, to speak openly about our faith, ask them what they think about the unity of the churches or the union of the churches, ask them what they think about the Holy Father, ask them what the differences are, and get them to pray.
这很有趣。 That’s interesting.
有能团结我们的祈祷吗？ Is there a prayer that unites us?
我知道他们没有像我们这样的玫瑰经传统，但是有能与东正教徒团结的祈祷吗？ I know they don't have, for example, the Rosary as their tradition as we do, but are there prayers that would unite us with the Orthodox?
有，那就是美丽的耶稣祷文：耶稣，天主子，怜悯我这个罪人。 Well, the beautiful Jesus Prayer: Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
为教会的合一奉献这个祷文，这是我们主的祈祷——愿众人合而为一，愿所有 祂的门徒在祂的教会中合一——这是我们这个时代可以说的最伟大的祈祷。 To offer that up for the union of the churches, that the prayer of our Lord—that all may be one, that all His professed disciples will be one in His Church—there is no greater prayer that can be said in our time.
法蒂玛圣母呼吁我们为俄罗斯的皈依祈祷。 Our Lady of Fatima called upon us to pray for the conversion of Russia.
我们需要这些祈祷。 We need those prayers.
有趣的是，圣女小德兰的遗物，她是教会的圣师 ，也是我们俄罗斯东正教弟兄特别喜爱的圣人。 It’s interesting that the relics of St. Therese, Doctor of the Church, and she’s a saint who is particularly beloved by our Russian Orthodox brethren.
他们喜欢圣女小德兰，这位24岁就去世的教会圣师。 她身上有某种与俄罗斯圣人的苦修精神相契合的东西。 They like St. Therese, the Child Jesus, a Doctor of the Church who died at the age of 24. There’s something about her that matches the ascetic spirit of the Russian saints.
他们喜欢圣方济各；他们喜欢圣女小德兰。 They like St. Francis; they like St. Therese.
所以让我们谈谈圣人，谈谈我们的共同点，并尝试为教会的 合一献上更多祈祷，以成全我们主愿众人合而为一的旨意。 So let’s talk about the saints and what we have in common and try to get more prayers offered for the union of the churches to fulfill the will of our Lord that all be one.
我们也应该努力了解他们的历史，不是吗？ And it behooves us to make an effort to know their history too, doesn’t it?
是的，去他们的堂区，结交朋友。 Yes, go to their parishes, make friends.
只要基督徒彼此隔绝，对彼此存在虚假观念、刻板印象和陈规，就会阻碍教会的合一。 As long as Christians are isolated from one another and we have false ideas and caricatures and stereotypes of one another, that impedes the unity of the Church.
所以是的，真诚对话的第一步，第一阶段就是友谊。 So yes, the first step, the first stage in authentic dialogue is friendship.
让我们伸出援手接近这些了不起的人。 Let’s reach out to these wonderful people.
希腊人是了不起的人，塞尔维亚人、俄罗斯人也是——尽管在南斯拉夫发生了这 些事，共产主义对塞尔维亚人的影响是一场灾难，从最近的事件就可以看出。 The Greeks are wonderful people, the Serbs, the Russians—despite all that’s going on in Yugoslavia, the impact of communism among the Serbs has been a disaster, as you can see by recent events.
塞尔维亚东正教徒有着伟大的圣洁传统。 The Serbian Orthodox people have a great heritage of sanctity.
这在所有东正教会中都是真实的；那种东方灵性的活生生的大公传 统继续在他们中间存活，就像在与罗马共融的东方教会中一样。 This is true in all the Orthodox churches; that living Catholic tradition of Eastern spirituality continues to live with them, as in the Eastern churches in communion with Rome.
吉姆，非常感谢你今晚与我们在一起。 Jim, thank you so much for being with us.
感谢你分享你的信仰历程，并向我们详细介绍东正教。 Thank you for sharing your journey and informing us so much about the Orthodox Church.
你给了我们一些很好的挑战，鼓励我们为教会重聚献 上耶稣祷文，并请求圣女小德兰为这个重聚代祷。 You've given us some good challenges and encouraged us to offer up the Jesus Prayer for the reunion of the churches and to ask for St. Therese's intercession for that reunion.
再次感谢你，感谢你参与我们的节目。 Thank you again, and thank you for joining us.
我期待下周在《归家之旅》节目中与你们相聚。 I look forward to being with you next week on The Journey Home.
让我们祈祷。 Let’s pray.
谢谢。 Thank you.