那么，晚上好，欢迎收看「归家之旅」节目。 So, well, good evening and welcome to the Journey Home program.
我是今晚的主持人约翰·马克·格罗迪，我们又带来了一个故事 ——又一个关于主如何在我们的生命中动工，带领我们更深地进 入基督，进入祂的教会，这个祂赐给我们的伟大教会的故事。 I'm your host tonight, John Mark Grodi, and we're back with another story—another story of how the Lord has worked in our lives to bring us deeper into Christ, into His Church, this great Church that He's given us.
今天我们很荣幸邀请到杰森·里德博士。 We're blessed today to be joined by Dr. Jason Reed.
他曾是一位福音派神学院的教授。 He's a former evangelical seminary professor.
杰森，欢迎来到节目。 Jason, welcome to the show.
很高兴来到这里！ Pleasure to be here!
我们刚才聊天的时候，你知道，就像每次有人来讲述他们 的故事一样，那些地方，那些名字——有太多的联系。 And we were talking beforehand, you know, as always when we have someone on to tell their story, the places, the names—there are so many connections.
你知道，我们谈到道格·博蒙特、基思·内斯特、多姆 博士——他是我的研究生导师——有这么多的联系。 You know, we were talking about Doug Beaumont, Keith Nestor, Dr. Dom, who was my graduate director—so many connections.
这就是这些故事的精彩之处。 That's one of the cool things about these stories.
当我们开始把自己的生命看作是神所写的故事时，我 们就能看到所有的联系，所有的涟漪，所有的波澜。 As soon as we begin to see our life as a story that God is the author of, we see all the connections, all the ripples, all the waves.
所以这很令人兴奋。 And so it's exciting.
那我就开个头，让你来讲。 So I'll start you off; I'll let you go.
这个故事从哪里开始？ Where does this story begin?
嗯，谢谢！ Well, thank you!
能来到这里真是太好了。 It's great to be here.
我看这个节目已经很久了，所以对我来说这真是一种享受。 I've been watching the show for a long time, so this is a real treat for me.
我是在爱荷华州东部的一个小镇长大的，我记得在这段旅程中，小时候我们总是去教会。 So I was raised in eastern Iowa, a small town, and I remember about the journey is when we were always going to church as a kid.
对我的父母来说，我们去家乡的教会是非常重要的事。 My mother and my father—it was very important to them that we went to the hometown church.
所以我记得早上起床，穿好衣服。 So I can remember getting up in the morning, getting dressed.
直到今天，我还能闻到循道宗教会地下室那股霉味。 I can smell, even today, the Methodist basement that mustang.
我能闻到妈妈回家时会做的炖肉的香味。 I can smell the pot roast that Mom would have coming home.
所以我是在教会中长大的，这对我们来说非常重要。 So I grew up in church; it was very important to us.
所以你知道，这是一个很普通的成长经历。 So that, you know, was a very normal upbringing.
然后到了我高中二年级或三年级的时候，事情真的发生了变化。 And then when I was about sophomore or junior year, then things really changed.
我不太确定发生了什么，但是我们与教会产生了一些 分歧，而且我们所在的教派正在走向错误的方向。 I'm not sure what happened, but there was some falling out of the church, and the denomination that we were in was going in the wrong direction.
所以我的父母开始重新思考一切。 So my parents were rethinking everything.
所以从我16岁左右开始，我就不再去教会了。 So from about the time I was 16, I didn't go to church anymore.
但那一年很重要，因为我参加了一个青年团契，我很喜欢去青年团契。 But that year was important because I was in a youth group, and I liked going to the youth group.
我们有一位主日学老师问我们：「你想要与耶稣建立个人关系吗？」 We had a Sunday school teacher who asked us, Do you want a personal relationship with Jesus?
我以前从未听过这样的说法。 I'd never heard that before.
我说：「好啊，当然！」 I was like, Okay, sure!
怎么做呢？ How do you do that?
她说：「嗯，你要做的是说一个叫做认罪祷告的祷告。」 She said, Well, you say what's called a sinner's prayer.
我可能已经说过上百万次了：「主啊，我知道我是个罪人。」 And I've said this probably a million times: Lord, I know I'm a sinner.
「我需要你赦免我的罪，我想要你在我的生命中。」 I need You to forgive me for my sins, and I want You in my life.
我记得我做了这个祷告，然后想：「好了，我是基督徒了，对吧？」 So I remember doing that, and I thought, Okay, I'm a Christian, right?
这件事发生后，突然间，我们就不再去教会了。 So that happens, and all of a sudden, we're not going to church anymore.
那是在循道宗教会。 That was at the Methodist church.
是的，后来我上了大学，但并不是很喜欢学校。 Yeah, so I went to college and didn't really like school.
我真的很迷茫。 I was really lost.
我的意思是，现在回想起来，我上大学只是因为那是下一个该走的步骤。 I mean, I look back now, and I went to college because that just was the next step.
是啊，是啊。 Yeah, yeah.
你知道，在当地循道宗是什么样子的？那个个人关系真的建立起来了吗？ What was your experience of, you know, what did Methodism look like at the local level, and did that personal relationship take?
我想是的。 I think so.
我是说，在某种程度上是建立起来了，但你知道，当你 15、16岁的时候，你就是这样做了，你明白吗？ I mean, I think it did at some level, but you know, when you're 15 or 16, you do it, you know?
而且我觉得它可能比我想象的影响更大。 And I think it did maybe more than I thought.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
但那是一个典型的循道宗教会。 But it was a typical Methodist church.
我们遵循教会年历，那里有某种礼仪。 We followed the calendar; it had some sort of liturgy there.
每个人都坐在后面，牧师总是要走到前面来。 Everyone sat in the back, and the pastor always had to come up forward.
所以，我的意思是，从这个角度来说，没什么特别的事情。 So, I mean, it's kind of uneventful in that sense.
但在那种环境下，直到你青少年时期，才有人建议你个人与基督相遇。 But in that context, still, it was not until your teen years that you had the suggestion that you encounter Christ personally.
对，就是这样。 Exactly, exactly.
所以现在回想起来，那件事一直在我的脑海深处。 So that was, I think in hindsight, that was in the back of my mind.
明白了。 Gotcha.
哦对了，后来我上了大学，头两年真的是一片模糊。 Oh yeah, so I go to college, and the first two years are a blur, really.
我对学习不感兴趣。 I wasn't interested in school.
我喜欢运动，能做什么就做什么，但我真的不知道我想学什么。 I liked sports; I did what I could, but I really didn't know what I wanted to study.
所以，就像我之前说的，我上大学只是因为那是人们都会做的事。 So, like I said before, I went to college because that's just what you did.
我最好的朋友也去了大学，我们进了一个兄弟会，我们想，就这样吧。 My best friend was going to the university; we got to a fraternity house, and we thought, We'll just do this.
就这样过了两年后，我妈妈得了癌症，这改变了一切——彻底改变了一切。 So after two years of that, my mom came down with cancer, and that was a game changer—a big game changer.
我在我母亲和父亲身上看到了一些东西。 I saw something in my mother and my dad.
我是说，我妈妈在家里，她的头发在脱落，但她在读圣经。 I mean, my mom was at home; she was losing her hair, and she was reading her Bible.
我真的在思考，这一切是为了什么？ I just was really thinking about, What's this all about?
所以我陷入了一场危机。 So I had a crisis.
我在想，这一切到底是为了什么？ I'm like, What is this all about?
我有一本叫《突如其来》的书，是厄尔·赫希泽写 的，是我父亲最好的朋友，一位前牧师送给我的。 I had a book called Out of the Blue, written by Earl Hershiser, that my dad's best friend, who was a former pastor, gave to me.
这是他的故事。 It's his story.
我读了那本书。 I read that.
当然，我喜欢棒球，所以我在读这位棒球运动员讲述他的信仰之旅。 Of course, I love baseball, so I'm reading this baseball player talk about his journey to faith.
我不知道棒球运动员也会有信仰之旅。 I didn't know baseball players had journeys to faith.
所以我读了那本书，心想：哇！ And so I read that book, and I thought, Wow!
所以那在某种程度上触动了我，但我个人并没有太大改变。 So that kind of connected me, but not a whole lot changed personally.
你知道，仍然过着典型的大学生活，周末聚会之类的。 Still, you know, living a typical college life, partying on the weekends, things like that.
但后来一个好朋友给了我一本戴夫·德拉维基写的《东山再起》。 But then a good friend gave me a book called Comeback by Dave Dravecky.
戴夫·德拉维基是一位大联盟棒球运动员，他两次患上癌症。 Dave Dravecky was a Major League Baseball player, and he had two bouts of cancer.
第一次，他们切除了他手臂的大部分，而所谓的东山再起 就是他真的从癌症中恢复过来，重返大联盟并继续投球。 The first time, they cut out a major part of his arm, and the comeback was that he actually came back from cancer and returned to the Major Leagues and pitched.
哇！ Wow!
但问题是，我记不太清了，可能是第一年打了几场比赛 后，情况又恶化了，癌症复发，他的手臂被截肢了。 But then the problem was, I don't know, maybe it was the first year after a few games, it broke again, and cancer returned, and his arm got amputated.
这应该是在1991年的夏天。那时是我大学二年级和三年级之间。 So this would have been the summer, I think, like 1991. So this is between my sophomore and junior year of college.
我回到家，孟菲斯的那个教会，嗯，有了一位新牧 师——非常福音派，非常注重与神的个人关系。 I went home, and the Memphis church that was in, uh, had a new pastor—very evangelical, very interested in a personal relationship with God.
我们进行了很多关于信仰的长谈，他说戴夫要在锡达拉皮兹的肯尼迪礼堂演讲。 We had lots of long conversations about the faith, and he said, Dave is speaking in Cedar Rapids at the Kennedy Auditorium.
你一定是在开玩笑吧！ You've got to be kidding me!
所以我非常兴奋。 So I was all excited.
不幸的是，他来不了，所以他寄来了一盘录音带。 Unfortunately, he couldn't make it, so he sent an audio tape.
所以我和我最好的朋友去了。 So my best friend and I went.
这是在六月份。 This was in June.
我在家里某个地方还保存着入场券，那是6月28日，我坐在后排。 I even had the ticket somewhere at home—the attendance ticket—and sat in the back on June 28th.
所以快到——我就不说多少周年了——很多年了！ So it's coming up on—I won't say how many anniversaries—a lot!
很多年！ A lot!
是啊，也没那么多。 Yeah, not that many.
没那么多。 Not that many.
真的没那么多！ That's not that many!
没错。 Exactly.
所以在见证中，我记得的一件事是当他——要知道 他可是大联盟投手——而他的投球手臂没有了。 So during the testimony, one thing I remembered was when he had his—and this is a Major League pitcher—and his throwing arm is gone.
他看着镜头，我感觉整个房间只有我一个人。 He looked into the camera; I was the only person in the room.
他说，如果神要我这样，如果祂能借此触动人心，那就这样吧。 He said, If God wants me this way, and if He can reach people, that's the way it is.
我告诉你，约翰·马克，就好像圣灵重重地击打了我。 And I tell you, John Mark, it's like the Holy Spirit just hammered me.
对观众来说，这就叫做知罪。 It's called conviction to the viewers.
所以我坐在那里，我的整个人生都在眼前闪过——我犯过的所有罪，我正在走的方向。 So I sat there, and my whole life was going through me—all the sins I committed, the direction I was headed.
我有麻烦了。 I'm in trouble.
我真的有麻烦了，我需要与神和好。 I'm really in trouble; I need to get right with God.
所以在1992年，我在我的小镇斯普林维尔的卧室里，请求神进入我的生命。 So in 1992, I went into my bedroom in my little town, Springville, and I asked God to come into my life.
我说，我需要改变。 I said, I need to change.
我完全不知道这意味着什么，但我知道我已经改变了。 I didn't know what that meant whatsoever, but I knew that I had changed.
那真的很重要。 That was really significant.
是啊，是啊。 Yeah, yeah.
我不知道那意味着什么。 I don't know what that meant.
我也一直觉得这很有意思。 I always think that's interesting too.
我是说，基督在福音书中说，要悔改并相信。 I mean, Christ in the Gospels says, Repent and believe.
你知道，有时我们在完全理解之前就迈出了这一步。 You know, sometimes we take that step before we even understand what it's all about.
我知道我需要这样做，但当圣灵触动我们，我们知道需要做出某种改变的那一刻…… I knew I needed to do this, but that moment when the Holy Spirit touches us and we know we need to make some sort of change...
嗯，后来发生的事很有趣。 Well, it gets funny.
所以我回到了大学，对吧？ So I go back to college, right?
我在一个兄弟会里，他们中的大多数人——这么说 吧——大多数人都不是跟随神的，就这么说吧。 And so I'm in a fraternity, and most of them—let's put it this way—most of them were not following God, put it that way.
所以我们出去玩，我也在一起。 So we go out, and I'm hanging out.
你知道，我刚刚开始不再喝酒，不再参加派对了。 I just got, you know, I'm not drinking, not partying anymore.
而我最好的朋友——我们从来没有过争执——他叫戴夫。 And my best friend in the world—we've never had a crossword—his name's Dave.
我们坐在酒吧外面，我们另一个朋友是酒保，他正在 和我们分享他犯过的一些错误，以及他应该怎么做。 We're sitting out at the bar where another friend of ours was the bartender, and he was just sharing with us some mistakes he had been making and what he should do.
所以我在一边，我们的另一个朋友在另一边——对，就像天使和魔鬼。 So I'm on one side; our other friend's on the other side—right, angel and demon.
我不记得我对他说了什么，我开始跟他谈论耶稣，他的脸色变得苍白。 I don't know what I said to him; I started talking about Jesus to him, and he's just turning white.
戴夫是在一个非常敬畏神的家庭中长大的，所以他明白我在说什么。 Now, Dave was raised in a very God-fearing family, so Dave knew what I was talking about.
你必须要与神和好。 You've got to get right with God.
而我另一个朋友，一个前公教徒，他总是说：「公教！」 And my other friend, who was a former Catholic, he's always saying, Catholic!
别听那些东西！ Don't listen to that stuff!
我是公教徒，你不需要学那些。 I'm Catholic; you don't need to learn.
那是我第一次接触到这个——就像，什么？ That was my first introduction—like, what?
所以如果你是公教徒，你就不做这些事？ So if you're Catholic, you're not doing this stuff?
所以这就是整件事的开始。 So that kind of started the whole thing.
我在跟他说话，他心想：「天啊，我觉得杰森说得对。」 I'm talking to him, and he's thinking, Oh my gosh, I think Jason's right.
后来，我们回来了，戴夫说：「我要回家了。」 So later, we're back, and Dave said, I'm going to go home.
他来到我的房间，看起来像是魂不守舍。 He comes into my room, and he looks like he's dead.
他说：「我需要与神和好。」 He said, I need to get right with God.
我要给我父母打电话，我要回家成为一个基督徒。 I'm going to call my parents, and I'm going to go home and become a Christian.
是的，那天晚上我们有兄弟会会议，所有的兄弟都坐在那里，他们在想戴夫去哪了。 Yeah, so we had our fraternity meeting that night, and all the brothers are sitting there, and they're wondering where Dave is.
我坐在椅子上，那是三个重要时刻之一——我想我们…… I'm sitting in my chair, one of those three moments—I think we're...
我什么都不说。 I'm not saying nothing.
我什么都不说。 I am not saying anything.
在我意识到之前，我就站了起来。 And all before I knew it, I'm standing up.
我说：「是的，戴夫这个周末去成为基督徒了。」 I say, Yeah, Dave went to become a Christian this weekend.
戴夫和我这个夏天成为了基督徒。 Dave and I became Christians this summer.
现场安静得能听见一根针掉在地上的声音。 And you could hear a pin drop.
我心想：「刚才发生了什么？」 I'm like, What just happened?
我为什么要说那个？ Why did I say that?
所以戴夫成为了基督徒。 So Dave becomes a Christian.
我们不知道该做什么，不知道该去哪里，不知道该和谁接触。 We don't know what to do; we don't know where to go; we don't know who to get involved with.
好在戴夫的父亲认识爱荷华州立大学的学园传道会主 任，所以这就是我们第一次接触到校园基督徒团契。 Well, Dave's dad knew a Campus Crusade director at Iowa State, so that's our first introduction to a Christian group on campus.
他们有音乐，这对我们来说完全是陌生的。 They had music, and this was completely foreign to us.
所以我们去了，我们之前都不知道还有这样的校园基督徒团契和查经班。 So we show up; we didn't know there were such things as campus Christian groups and Bible studies.
我们简直惊呆了。 We were just blown away.
这真是太令人兴奋了！ This was pretty exciting!
所以我们开始从中学习。 So we started getting informed by this.
但我很快就发现，并不是校园里的每个人都对基督教感兴趣。 But as I found out real quickly, not everyone on campus is excited about Christianity.
所以我遇到了各种反对意见——摩门教徒、怀疑论者、无神 论者、不可知论者——我很快就发现我需要找到一些答案。 So I came in against objections—Mormons, skeptics, atheists, agnostics—and I found out pretty quickly I needed to get some answers.
是的，在这期间，我对基督教很热心，但对学校却提不起兴趣。 Yeah, so in the meantime, I'm excited about Christianity, but I'm not excited about school.
我不知道可以退学。 I did not know that you could withdraw.
我不知道还可以这样做！ I didn't know you could do that!
所以我就直接不去上学了。 So I just quit going to school.
我不去上课了，我只是读圣经，就是不去上学。 I quit going to class; I just read my Bible, and I just quit going to school.
我已经没兴趣了。 I wasn't interested anymore.
所以爱荷华州立大学要求我一个学期不要回来。 So Iowa State asked me not to come back for a semester.
我都不知道这事！ I didn't know that!
我说：「好吧，我回家去工作。」 I said, That's fine; I'll go home and start working.
所以我就这么做了，回来后，重返学校的唯一方式就是我必须先去社区大学。 So I did that, came back, and the only way to get back to school was I had to go to a community college.
这就是我的哲学背景开始发生变化的地方。 That's where everything starts to change when it comes to my philosophy background.
所以我想我要成为一名牧师，因此我选修了宗教研究。 So I'm going to be a pastor, I assume, so I'm taking religious studies.
不过，有一门哲学课符合我的课程表，但我并不想选。 Well, there was a philosophy class that fit my schedule that I did not want to take.
所以我想，我去上课，他们肯定会问我「你怎么知道这把椅子在那里？」 So I figured, I'm going to show up, and they're going to tell me, 'How do you know the chair is there?
你怎么知道它存在？」 How do you know it exists?'
我想我会很恼火。 I'm going to be really irritated.
约翰·马克，完全不是那样的！ John Mark, it was nothing like that!
他叫海斯洛普博士，事实上，几个研讨会前，我们又重新联系上了。 Dr. Hyslop is his name, and actually, a couple of seminars ago, we reconnected.
我感谢他为我所做的一切。 I thanked him for what he did for me.
太棒了！ Wonderful!
是啊，有趣的是——他也经历了同样的事。 Yeah, and it's interesting—the same thing happened to him.
所以我坐在课堂上，心想：这个滑稽的家伙要告诉我什么？ So I'm sitting in class, and I said, What's this joker going to tell me?
他在黑板上写道：「什么是美好的生活？」 He puts up on the board, What is the good life?
我盯着那个问题。 I stared at that.
什么是正义？ What is justice?
最打动我的是：「你认为你快乐，但这种认知可能是错的吗？」 The one that got me was, Can you think you're happy and be wrong?
我就坐在那里。 And I sat there.
就是这样！ Exactly!
我不知道哲学家问的问题和我作为基督徒问的是一样的。 I did not know that philosophers asked the same questions I was as a Christian.
是啊，这是神学的婢女，对吧？ Yeah, it's a handmaiden of theology, right?
我简直不敢相信！ I could not believe it!
这竟然真的是一个可以学术研究的领域。 There actually was an academic thing you could do this.
我心想：你真的可以这样做？ I'm like, You can do this?
我难以置信。 I couldn't believe it.
让我快进一点。 So I fast forward a little bit.
现在我主修哲学并且很享受，但这个专业能做什么呢？ Now I'm a philosophy major and enjoying it, but what do you do with this thing?
嗯，你得继续读书。 Well, you've got to keep going on with school.
所以在这期间，我在试图弄明白一个基督徒该如何做这件事？ So in the meantime, I'm trying to figure out how does a Christian do this?
我的室友有一本诺曼·盖斯勒博士写的《哲学导论：基督教视角》。 My roommate had a book called Introduction to Philosophy: A Christian Perspective by Dr. Norman Geisler.
当然，那是还在用录音带的年代。 And of course, this was back in the day when they had audio cassette tapes.
所以要么是在书里，要么是在某个地方可以买到他辩论的录音带之类的东西。 So it was either in the book or somewhere where you could buy audios of his debates and things.
于是我得到了他的辩论和讲座录音。 And so I got his debates and his lectures.
我记得坐在那里听盖斯勒博士与那些写我正在读的教科书的哲学家辩论。 I remember sitting there listening to Dr. Geisler debate philosophers whose textbooks I had been reading.
而且他在辩论中获胜！ And he was winning the debate!
我没想到——基督教，你可以为它辩论？ I did not mean this—Christianity, you can debate it?
一个叫做护教学的东西？ Something called apologetics?
我心想，什么是哲学？ I'm like, What is philosophy?
所以基督徒也可以是哲学家？ So Christians are philosophers?
我简直不敢相信！ I could not believe it!
在书的封底上写着，他当时是一所大学或神学院的哲学教授。 So on the back of the book, he was a professor of philosophy at a college or seminary at the time.
所以你知道吗？ So you know what?
我决定给他打电话。 I'm just going to call him.
那时候，我们有叫做答录机的东西。 So back then, we had things called answering machines.
我打电话到他的办公室，他不在。 I call his office; he's not in.
我会告诉你他回电话了并留下了他的号码。 I'll let you know that he called and took his number.
所以我骑车回去，去上学，去上课，回来后，答录机在闪烁——有一条留言。 So I go on my bike, go back, go off to school, go off to class, come back, and it's flashing—one message.
我按下按钮：「杰森，我是诺姆·盖斯勒。」 I push it: Jason, Norm Geisler.
我简直不敢相信！ I could not believe it!
是啊，真是难以置信！ Yeah, it was unbelievable!
盖斯勒博士在我的答录机上留言！ Dr. Geisler was on my answering machine!
我给我的好朋友德鲁打电话，我给办公室打电话。 I called my good friend Drew; I called the office.
他邀请我们去他家。 He invites us down to his house.
他甚至都不认识我！ He didn't even know me!
所以我和我的朋友德鲁飞去参加一个会议，见到了他和他的妻子。 So my buddy Drew and I fly down to a conference, meet him and his wife.
我们住在他家，我带着一本关于圣托马斯阿奎那的书。 We stay at his house, and I had a book on someone called St. Thomas Aquinas.
《圣托马斯阿奎那：一个福音派的评价》。 St. Thomas Aquinas: An Evangelical Appraisal.
阿奎那该被遗忘吗？ Should old Aquinas be forgotten?
我昨天还在看这本书，我的这本都快散架了！ I actually was in the book yesterday; my version is falling apart!
我读着想，这个圣托马斯阿奎那是谁？ I read that, Who is this St. Thomas Aquinas?
我在读他的著作，盖斯勒博士说，我们在神学院这里研究托马斯主义。 I'm reading him, and Dr. Geisler said, We study Thomism here at the seminary.
所以我要去神学院，我要在他的指导下学习。 So I'm going to go to seminary; I'm going to study under him.
我在那里遇到了一些教授——这真是改变人生！ I met some of the professors there—this is life-changing!
是的，我能做到！ Yeah, I can do this!
于是我回家告诉了我的父母。 And so I went home and told my parents.
他们说：「嗯，那太好了！」 They said, Well, that's great!
只要确保你能找到工作。 Just make sure you can find a job.
所以在我离开之前，我参加了秋季的最后一次披萨聚会，我想是。 So before I left, I'm at the last pizza party, I think, of the fall.
我快要毕业了，我坐在那里，外面下着雨。 I'm about ready to graduate, and I'm sitting there, and the rain's coming down.
那边有个女孩在和我的一个好朋友聊天。 There's this girl over there talking to a good friend of mine.
我从来没见过这样的人。 I've never seen anybody like this before.
所以我的计划稍微延迟了一下。 So my plans get a little delayed.
我在1996年遇见了霍莉，我想是那时候——差不多是那时候。 I meet Holly in 1996, I think it is—something like that.
是啊，就像，她一定是个基督徒！ Yeah, like, she's got to be a Christian!
所以我们相遇后，在一年内就结婚了。 So we met, got married within a year.
是啊！ Yeah!
所以她留在那里读书，我也读书，然后我们搬到了爱荷华城，在那里 做了一些事工，最后在2000年，搬到南方福音神学院继续学习。 So she stayed there, did some schooling; I did some schooling, and then we moved to Iowa City, did some ministry there, and finally in 2000, moved to Southern Evangelical Seminary and studied down there.
是啊，是啊。 Yeah, yeah.
今晚我们在与杰森·里德博士交谈，他曾是福音派神学院的教授。 We're speaking tonight with Dr. Jason Reed, former evangelical seminary professor.
所以你要去跟随盖斯勒博士读神学院。 So you're heading to the seminary with Dr. Geisler.
你知道，我前几天刚和弗朗西斯·贝克维斯博士谈过话。 You know, I was just talking to Dr. Francis Beckwith the other day.
哦，他当时也在那里！ Oh, he was there, actually!
是啊，对！ Yeah, right!
嗯，他成为故事的一部分是因为我在那里的时候他皈依了公教。 Well, he comes into the story because he turned Catholic while I’m there.
对，是的，是的，是的！ Right, yeah, yeah, yeah!
准备好，因为现在一切都开始快速变化。 Get ready because now everything starts to change fast.
所以我去了那里，在他家里和盖斯勒博士一起工作。 So I go down there, and I work with Dr. Geisler in the house.
我很喜欢那里——很好的团体。 I love it down there—great community.
盖斯勒博士说，你需要去读研究生。 And Dr. Geisler said, You need to go get a graduate degree.
我说，我不想再读书了！ I'm like, I don't want to do more school!
而且由于他们曾要求我离开一段时间，我的本科经历并不是很好。 And I didn't have the greatest undergraduate experience since they asked me to leave for a little bit.
所以我说，好吧，你知道吗？ So I said, Well, you know what?
我要把这件事交在神手中。 I'll put this in God's hands.
所以我参加了GRE考试，递交了申请，而我最想 去的地方是圣路易斯大学，因为我一直对神着迷。 So I took the GRE, put out applications, and the one place I wanted to go more than any place was St. Louis University because I've always been fascinated with God.
我学哲学的原因是因为我想知道是否有神，我真的想知道祂是否存在，以及祂是什么样的。 The reason I'm in philosophy is because I want to know if there is a God, and I really want to know if He exists and what He's like.
因为如果我不能知道这些事情，其他什么都不重要。 Because nothing else really matters if I can't know those things.
这其实不是神学问题。 It's not really a theological question.
不，这是很个人的问题！ No, it's very personal!
这是一个哲学问题，神学问题某种程度上是建立在这个基础之上的。 It's a philosophical question to establish on which the theological question sort of ends.
是的，我想知道是否有神，以及祂是什么样的。 Yeah, I want to know if there is a God and what He's like.
我一直遇到一位叫埃莉诺·斯坦普的哲学家。 I keep running across this philosopher named Eleanor Stump.
是的，神的单纯性、永恒性，以及捍卫古典神论。 Yeah, absolute simplicity, eternity, and defending the classical conception of God.
所以我被几所学校录取了，我打电话给一所排名可 能稍高的学校，所以去那里似乎是明智的选择。 So I got into a couple of schools, and I called one school that was maybe a little bit higher ranked, so it seemed like the wise decision to go there.
但我想跟随的那位教授，我记得，每隔一个学期——对不起，是每隔一年才教课。 But the person I wanted to work with only teaches, I remember, every other semester—sorry, every other year.
我打电话给圣路易斯大学，维塔莱神父说，不，斯坦普博士每个学期都教课。 I called St. Louis, and Father Vitale said, No, Dr. Stump teaches every semester.
哇！ Like, wow!
就这样定了！ Done!
是的，我当时不知道他是耶稣会士。 Yeah, I did not know he was Jesuit.
我不知道耶稣会是什么。 I didn't know what Jesuits were.
我不知道他是维塔莱神父——所有这些事情。 I didn't know he was Father Vitale—all these sorts of things.
所以维塔莱神父打电话邀请我去学校。 So Father Vitale called me to invite me to the school.
他说，我看过你的成绩单，你曾经玩了一阵子，但你扭转了局面。 He said, I've seen your transcript; you partied for a while, but you got it turned around.
我们希望你能来。 We'd like you to come.
太好了！ It's great!
我们当时有两个孩子，所以我们带着这两个小淘气搬到了圣路易斯。 We had two kids at the time, so we moved up with these two little rugrats to St. Louis.
我在校园里走，看到所有这些神父在走动。 I walk on campus, and I see all these priests walking around.
这些神父是从哪里来的？ Where are these priests?
这是一所公教学校吗？ Is this a Catholic school?
我完全不知道！ I had no idea!
这就说明了我对公教的了解有多少。 It just tells you what I knew about Catholicism.
所以，好吧，我想我会留下来，对吧？ And so, well, I guess I'll stay, right?
是的，我还不算太糟，那时我还不是太反对公教。 Yeah, I wasn't too bad; I wasn't too anti-Catholic at the time.
你提到你之前和你的朋友有过那次经历。 You mentioned that you had that one experience with your friend earlier.
是的，就是这样。 Yeah, that's about it.
就是这样！ That's about it!
这是个好问题，因为我遇到的其他公教徒都是在爱荷华州立大学我 参与的事工中，而且他们都是前公教徒——是的，很多前公教徒。 That's a good question because the only other Catholics I ran into were at the ministry where I was part of at Iowa State, and they were former Catholics—right, a lot of former Catholics.
所以我对公教的认识就是它是一个靠行为的信仰，他们不读圣经。 So what I knew about Catholicism was that it was a works-based faith, they didn't read their Bibles.
事实上，当我在神学院的时候，我会帮助人们脱离公教。 And actually, when I was at the seminary, I would help people out of Catholicism.
我的妻子是从小就是公教徒，这个话题后面还会提到。 My wife is a cradle Catholic; that's going to come back too.
在我们继续之前，我想问你的一件事就是你对教会历史的认识如何？ One of the things I wanted to ask you about before we went any further is just what was your sense of church history?
因为从你经历的一些事情来看，你说你真的没有什么认识——完全没有。 Because it seems like from some of the things that you experienced, and you said that you didn't really have a sense—none, zero.
全都是观念，全是哲学，系统神学——就只有这些。 It was all ideas; it was all philosophy, systematic theology—that's all it was.
但即使是认为基督徒和哲学混合很奇怪这种想法——如果你了解历史，这根本就不奇怪。 But even the idea that it would be weird that Christians and philosophy even mix—if you have a sense of history, that wouldn't be weird at all.
我们经常与我们的教会或信仰的历史完全脱节。 We really often are so cut off from a sense of the history of our church or faith.
嗯，即使在神学院，我们有历史神学课，但学校没有教会历史课。 Well, even at the seminary, we had a historical theology class, but there was no church history class at the school.
但我记得我们谈论古典历史基督教信仰，我们在学校经常谈论这个。 But I remember talking about the classic historical Christian faith; we talked a lot about that at the school.
所以「历史」这个词我说过，但没有深入研究过。 So the word historical crossed my lips, but no deep study of it.
所以我去了圣路易斯大学，在我的生命中第一次遇到了 敬畏神的公教徒——像迈克尔·罗达和保罗这样的人。 So I go to St. Louis University, and for the first time in my life, I'm meeting, for me, God-fearing Catholics—people like Michael Roda and Paul.
我只是在想我身边的布莱恩·克罗斯，他当时也在思考这些事情。 I just wonder about Brian Cross next to me; he's going through the same time thinking about these things.
当我和迈克谈话时，他向我引用圣经！ And when I talked to Mike, he quoted the Bible at me!
就像，也许这些公教徒也是基督徒！ Like, maybe these Catholics are Christians!
维塔莱神父非常有耐心。 And Father Vitale was so patient.
我不是最好的学生，总是在思考，不写作——这样比较容易。 I wasn't the greatest student, always thinking, not writing—it's a little bit easier.
是的，我不是最好的学生。 Yeah, I wasn't the greatest student.
我一直在思考一个话题，我只是不想写出来。 I kept thinking about a topic; I just didn't want to write about it.
我一直在思考，但维塔莱神父总是对我很有耐心。 I kept thinking about it, but Father Vitale was always patient with me.
我开始更多地被教会吸引。 I started getting attracted to the Church more.
我当时并没有真正意识到，但那时我们在去北郊的一个教会。 I didn't really realize it at that time, but this time we were going to a church in the northern suburbs.
就公教而言，我很喜欢其中的很多东西。 As far as Catholicism, I liked a lot of it.
我喜欢托马斯阿奎那，我也喜欢我的公教同学。 I loved Thomas Aquinas; I liked my Catholic classmates.
但它对我的吸引力越来越大，这对一个福音派背景的人来说很奇怪。 But it was getting too attractive to me, and this is strange coming from an evangelical background.
我几乎觉得我在失去我的信仰。 I almost felt like I was losing my faith.
所以当我后来皈依时，这件事会困扰我。 So when I convert later, that's something that will haunt me.
对我来说，在那个时候，我会说公教会不是适合我的信仰。 For me, at this time, I would say the Catholic Church was not the faith for me.
所以也许他们在某种准意义上是基督徒，但不是完全意义上的。 So maybe they're Christians in some sort of quasi-sense, but they're not full-blown.
你对它更开放，你对它可能比我更公平，这很有趣。 You were more open to it; you were more fair to it, perhaps, than I would like to be, which is interesting.
在这个时候我真的很喜欢托马斯。 I really liked Thomas at this point.
有人告诉我我可以相信圣托马斯的哲学但不是神 学，所以我只读了《神学大全》的第一部分。 I was told I could believe St. Thomas' philosophy but not the theology, so I just read the Primordial—it’s just the first part.
我没有深入研究你提到的其他内容。 I didn't get a whole lot into the other stuff you mentioned.
你们那时去的教会是循道宗吗？ You guys were going to church at this point—is it Methodist?
是弗洛里桑特第一基督教会。 It was First Christian Church of Florissant.
可能还是不去？ Still probably not?
我在研究生院太忙了。 I was too busy in grad school.
周围有一些神学院，但我并不真的了解。 I had some seminaries around, but I didn't really know.
我只是在努力生存。 I was just trying to survive.
但对你来说，这只是普通的基督教。 But it's just sort of, for you, it's just normal Christianity.
是的，普通的基督教。 Normal Christianity, yeah.
但他们确实每周都有圣餐。 But they did have communion every week.
我忘了这个！ I forgot about that!
当然，他们用的是葡萄汁和饼干，但我们每周都有圣餐。 They did have, of course, grape juice and a cracker, but every week we had communion.
所以还是有一点礼仪的感觉——有一点。 So still a little bit of a sense of liturgy—a little bit.
是的，在那里三年后，盖斯勒博士打电话给我说，下来教一个课程模块。 Yeah, so after three years there, Dr. Geisler calls me and says, Come down and teach to do a module.
我说，当然！ I'm like, Absolutely!
所以在我教完这个课程模块后，他说，你想来当教授吗？ So after the module I teach, he says, Would you like to come down and be a professor?
好啊！ Yeah!
所以这就是之前——这就是我想要的工作。 So that's where the former—that's the job I wanted.
这就是我想做的。 That's what I wanted to do.
所以我们刚刚有了第三个女儿，小梅尔，然后我们搬到了夏洛特。 So we just had girl number three, little Mare, and we moved to Charlotte.
我以为这就是终点了，对吧？ I thought this was going to be it, right?
我们要来这里，我要教托马斯，我们要在这里养家。 We're going to come down here, I'm going to teach Thomas, we're going to raise our family here.
虽然离爱荷华和夏洛特很远，但我们会没事的。 It's quite a ways away from Iowa and Charlotte, but we'll be okay.
所以在夏洛特，教很多神学，很多哲学。 So in Charlotte, teaching a lot of theology, a lot of philosophy.
然后发生了什么？ And then what happened?
我在教书——这可能是我的第二年或第三年，某个学期开学。 I'm teaching—this might be my second or third year, beginning of classes one semester.
盖斯勒博士辞职或退休了，我不太清楚具体情况，但他们需要有人教系统神学。 Dr. Geisler resigned or retired; I'm not sure of all the details, but they needed someone to teach systematic theology.
我们让里德来教！ We'll give it to Reed!
所以我开始教系统神学。 So I was teaching systematic theology.
现在我在寻找一本教授福音派神学的教科书。 Now I'm looking for a textbook to teach evangelical theology.
是的，没找到太多我喜欢的。 Yeah, not finding a whole lot that I like.
我想，我没看到什么系统性的东西。 I'm like, I don't see any systematics.
诺姆的书还没出版，或者可能已经出版了，但我不想只是重复他的东西。 Norm's book hadn't been out yet, or maybe it had been out, but I didn't want to just regurgitate his stuff.
所以我想，我要用《神学大全》。 So I thought, I'll use the Summa.
所以我在一所福音派学校用《神学大全》教系统神学，完全没想太多。 So I'm teaching systematic theology at an evangelical school using the Summa Theologiae, not thinking anything of it.
在第一个学期，我在教基督论课程，院长在后面做评估。 During that first semester, I'm teaching a class on Christology, and the dean is in the back doing his reviews.
所以我们在讲耶稣的人性，我在黑板上写了一个论证，对吧？ So we're going over the humanity of Jesus, and I put on the board an argument, right?
这个论证是说，如果马利亚是神的母亲，而祂完全 是人，她不仅仅是怀着祂——耶稣是她的儿子。 And the argument was that, well, if Mary is the Mother of God, and He's fully human, she's not just carrying Him—Jesus is her boy.
于是院长在后面举起手。 So the dean puts his hand up in the back.
他说，你是在说马利亚是神的母亲吗？ He says, Are you saying that Mary is the Mother of God?
对我来说，这就是基督教信仰。 To me, this was just Christianity.
这只是一个简单的三段论。 This is just a simple syllogism.
是啊，一个简单的三段论！ Yeah, a simple syllogism!
他说，我猜公教徒是对的。 And he said, I guess the Catholics are right.
我不知道他是什么意思。 I didn't know what he meant.
我真的不知道他是什么意思！ I didn't know what he meant!
就像，为什么这会有争议？ It's like, why is this controversial?
所以我没多想，继续在课堂上说一些公教的观点。 So I didn't think about that, and I kept saying some Catholic things in class.
我们有一门德性伦理学的课，我们讨论德性和信仰的整合以及这类事情。 We had a class on virtue ethics, and we were talking about the integration of virtue and faith and these sorts of things.
我在课堂上一直在引用这些公教作者。 I kept referring to all these Catholic authors all the time in classes.
我想如果我们在教会没有遇到问题，我想我今天可能还在那里。 And I think if we didn't have a problem at church, I think I'd still be there today.
但实际上，我并不是在寻找教会，我也不是在寻找公教。 But really, it wasn't like I was looking for the Church; I wasn't looking for Catholicism.
真正引爆整个事情的是我们所在的教会分裂了。 What blew up the whole thing was when the church we were a part of split.
所以现在回想起来，我去过的每个教会都是某种程度上预先决定好的。 So I look back now, and every church I'd ever gone to was kind of predetermined for me.
所以我小时候去的教会，我成长的教会——当你是 学园传道会的一员时，他们与这个教会有关联。 So the church I went to as a kid, the one I grew up in—when you're part of Crusade, they're associated with this church.
去盐公司时，他们与教会有关联。 Went to the Salt Company; they're associated with the church.
去神学院时，他们与教会有关联。 Went to seminary; they're associated with the church.
去研究生院时——教会就在隔壁。 Went to graduate school—the church right next door.
所以在我的生命中第一次，我该去哪里？ So for the first time in my life, where do I go?
我该去什么教会？ What churches do I go to?
我不得不面对——这对我来说是一个非常黑暗的时期，因为我不得不 面对一个我多年来一直在忽视的事实，那就是，我不喜欢去教会。 And I had to come—this was a very dark time for me because I had to come to grips with something I'd been ignoring for years, and that is, I don't like going to church.
我感觉自己在某种程度上是个骗子，因为我为什么在这里？ I feel like, in a sense, a fraud because why am I here?
我在这里待一个半小时，我的生活没有任何改变。 I'm here for an hour and a half; my life isn't changing.
我真的相信这些东西吗？ Do I really believe these things?
所以这对我来说很难。 So that was hard for me.
所以如果由我决定，我就不会去。 So if it were up to me, I wouldn't go.
于是我们开始去不同的教会。 And so we started going around to different churches.
接下来的两个——可能是三个——但肯定是接下来的 两个教会，我们去参加礼拜，而那天教会正在分裂。 The next two—maybe three—but for sure the next two churches, we show up to the service, and the church is splitting that day.
天啊！ Oh my!
就像，刚刚发生了什么？ Like, what just happened?
我们刚离开一个！ We just left one!
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
所以在这个时候，我妻子那边发生了很多事情。 So at this time, there's a whole lot of stuff going on with my wife.
我当时对这些一无所知。 I didn't know any of this at the time.
神在她身上动工，她觉得她想回到礼仪性的教会。 So God’s working on her, and she thinks she wants to get back to liturgical.
所以她在教孩子们尼西亚信经，她在教孩子们——我们在更多地遵循教会礼仪年历。 So she’s teaching the kids the Nicene Creed; she’s teaching the kids—we’re doing more liturgical church calendar.
我对这些都不知道，我忙着教书。 I don’t know any of these things; I’m busy teaching.
所以我经历了信仰危机。 So I have a crisis of faith.
我不想再去教会了。 I don’t want to go to church anymore.
所以她说，你需要和皮特谈谈。 So she said, You need to talk to Pete.
皮特是我的顾问，盐公司的主任，他是个非常非常聪明的人。 Pete was my advisor, the director of the Salt Company, who’s a very, very sharp guy.
所以我说，好吧，我要邀请他来神学院。 So I said, Well, I’m going to invite him to the seminary.
他当时是一位英国圣公会的神父。 He’s an Anglican priest at the time.
我说，我想让你来学校谈谈作为一个知识分子和牧师意味着什么。 I said, I want you to come to the school and talk about what it means to be an intellectual and to be a pastor.
因为我们有很多学生为了成为牧师而学习哲学。 Because we had a lot of students studying philosophy for the pastorate.
所以皮特来了，他戴着领圈，每个人都吓坏了。 So Pete came down, and he’s wearing his collar, and everyone’s freaking out.
我说，不，我不是公教徒，我是圣公会的。 I said, No, I’m not Catholic; I’m Anglican.
在那次访问中，我跟他分享说，皮特，我不想再去教会了。 And during that visit, I just shared with him, I don’t want to go to church anymore, Pete.
我知道你经历过类似的事情。 I know you’ve gone through similar things.
我不知道该怎么办，我已经筋疲力尽了。 I don’t know what to do; I’m burned out.
我从中得不到任何东西。 I’m not getting anything out of it.
帮帮我。 Help me out.
他说，你需要礼仪。 He said, You need liturgy.
这就是他对我说的。 That’s what he said to me.
我想，我不知道那是什么意思。 I’m like, I don’t know what that meant.
你是说在我去过的圣公会教堂里照本宣科吗？ Do you mean the reading out of the book at the Anglican church I went to?
他说，你需要一些礼仪。 He said, You need to get some liturgy.
啊！ Huh!
他说他经历过一场危机，他也不想再去教会了，或者类似的事情。 He said he went through a crisis; he didn’t want to go to church anymore or something like that.
礼仪——这不是你所期待的答案！ Liturgy—not an answer you were expecting!
这不是我所期待的答案！ Not an answer I was expecting!
所以我回家了，他提到了夏洛特的一个教会。 So I go home, and he mentioned a church in Charlotte.
我对霍莉说，亲爱的，你知道礼仪的事吗？ I tell Holly, I said, you know anything about liturgy, honey?
我觉得我们需要去一个有礼仪的教会。 I think we need to go to a liturgical church.
然后，就这样，我妻子在背后说，我要回到公教会。 And then, like that, my wife in the background said, I’m going to go back to Catholic Church.
哦哇！ Oh wow!
是啊，她都没告诉我！ Yeah, didn’t tell me!
你知道，因为那时候，我在学校是个福音派。 You know, because at that time, I’m an evangelical at school.
我不想给人们带来麻烦。 I do not want to cause problems for people.
你知道，我不想干扰别人的信仰。 I don’t want to, you know, mess with other people’s faith.
我不想让我的问题变成他们的问题。 I don’t want them to have my problems be their problems.
所以我们去了这个圣公会教堂，我很喜欢。 So we went to this Anglican church, and I loved it.
但有趣的是他们试图把礼仪和福音派的形式结合起来。 But it was interesting because they tried to marry liturgy with an evangelical format.
所以大约要两个小时，时间很长，而且开车去那里要45分钟。 So it was like two hours, so it was kind of a long time, and it was a 45-minute drive up there.
所以这就像一个占据整个上午和下午的活动。 So it was like an all-morning, afternoon event.
我一直去那里，我真的在做一个圣公会信徒。 I kept going up there, and I was really being Anglican.
你可能也是这样，因为你是哲学系学生。 You’re probably like this too because you’re a philosophy student.
当你有一个主题时，你会去找所有关于这个主题的书，对吧？ When you have a topic, you get all the books on the topic, right?
所以我想成为圣公会信徒，就出去买了所有的书，对吧？ So I wanted to be Anglican, so I went out and got all the books, right?
《神学原理》，诸如此类的——我都有这些书！ Principles of Theology, whatever—I had the books!
我和牧师见面时说，我想成为一个公教徒——我是说，对不起，圣公会信徒！ I was meeting with the pastor, and I said, I want to be a Catholic—I mean, sorry, Anglican!
我想成为一个圣公会信徒！ I want to be an Anglican!
这些是书！ Here’s the books!
所以我准备和他谈，他看着我说，哦，你比我更像圣公会信徒！ So I’m ready to talk to him, and he looked across from me and said, Oh, you’re more Anglican than I am!
我说，不，不！ I said, No, no!
我想学习这些东西。 I want to study these things.
我想经历这个过程。 I want to go through the process.
我想成为圣公会信徒。 I want to become Anglican.
他说，叮！ And he said, Ding!
你就是圣公会信徒！ You’re Anglican!
就像，刚才发生了什么？ Like, what just happened?
什么？ Like, what?
这不是应该的运作方式！ That’s not how it’s supposed to work!
真的，真的很失望。 Really, really disappointing.
我们最好休息一下。 We better take a break.
但有趣的是——在归家网络这里，我们经常遇到人们通 过阅读进入信仰，但在实际中遇到的教会却比较混乱。 But it’s interesting—here at the Coming Home Network, we often encounter that where people read their way in and they encounter a church which is a bit messier on the ground.
但在圣公会的情况下更是如此，很不幸，很多时候在实际中，当 人们渴望礼仪时所遇到的——与他们在书中读到的相去甚远。 But that’s even more so in that case where Anglicanism, very unfortunately, many times on the ground, what people are encountering when they’re yearning for liturgy—they’re yearning for what they’re reading about.
它已经堕落了。 It’s fallen.
取决于你去哪里，有些已经堕落得很远；是的，有一些真 正的困难，有一些真正的衰退，就像许多主流教派一样。 Depending on where you go, there’s some fallen far; right, there’s some real difficulties, there’s some real decline, as with many of the mainline denominations.
所以这真的会让人震惊，对吧？ And so it can be a real shock, right?
是的，这不是你所寻找的。 Yeah, it wasn’t quite what you were looking for.
不！好吧，让我们——我们待会再详谈。 No! Yeah, well, let’s—we’ll talk more about that.
嗯，今晚我们在和杰森·里德博士交谈。 Um, we’re talking tonight with Dr. Jason Reed.
他是前福音派神学院教授，我们几分钟后会回来继续听他的故事。 He’s a former evangelical seminary professor, and we’re going to come back here in a couple of minutes for the rest of his story.
我想提醒你，如果你自己正在考虑成为公教徒，如果你正处在这些故事中 的某个阶段——而你确实在一个故事中——我们很乐意陪你走这段旅程。 I want to remind you that if you yourself are thinking about becoming Catholic, if you’re somewhere in one of these stories—and you are in a story—we’d love to walk along that journey with you.
所以请访问chnetwork.org。 So check out chnetwork.org.
那里有很多很好的资源，很多像杰森这样的故事。但我们几分钟后会继续听他的故事。 I’ve got great resources there, many stories like Jason’s. But we’ll hear the rest of his story here in a couple of minutes.
欢迎回到「归家之旅」节目！ Welcome back to the Journey Home program!
今晚节目的下半场，我们继续和杰森·里德博士交谈。 The second half of this program tonight, we’re talking to Dr. Jason Reed.
你们将听到他故事的其余部分。 You’re going to hear the rest of his story.
他曾是福音派神学院的教授，在我们刚才说到的地方，你正 在教托马斯，你刚刚和你的妻子谈到感受到对礼仪的吸引。 He was a former evangelical seminary professor, and when we left off, you were teaching Thomas, and you just talked to your wife about feeling this pull back towards liturgy.
所以你拿着一堆关于圣公会的书去了，但发现这不是你所期待的。 So you get your stack of books on Anglicanism, and you show up, and it’s not quite what you expected.
天啊！ Dang!
你是圣公会信徒！ You’re Anglican!
天啊！ Dang!
你是圣公会信徒！ You’re Anglican!
真是太令人失望了！ What a letdown!
是的，那时个人生活中发生了什么？ Yeah, now what was going on personally?
我们怀了第四个孩子，但失去了那个孩子。 We were pregnant with our fourth child, and we lost that child.
哦是的，那真的很艰难。 Oh yeah, that was really rough.
是的，这是我们失去的第二个孩子。 Yeah, it’s the second one we had lost.
所以我总是告诉人们我们有六个孩子——两个在天堂，四个在我们身边。 So I always tell people we have six kids—two in heaven, four with us.
是的，没错。 Yeah, that’s right.
真的很艰难。 Really rough.
这对霍莉和我都是沉重的打击。 And that hit both Holly and me.
我们觉得离家太远了。 We felt we were too far away from home.
孩子们都很小，我记不清那是什么假期了。 The kids were young; I can’t remember what this time of holiday was.
丽莎、吉纳维芙和玛丽——她们那时都很小。 Lisa, Genevieve, and Mary—they were really young at the time.
她说，我需要回家。 And she said, I need to go home.
他们永远不会认识他们的家人了。 They’re never going to know their family.
所以我们离开了主日福音派教会——不是因为任何——当我成为公 教徒时，不是为了我自己或类似的原因，也不是因为我被拉走。 So we left Sunday evangelical—not because of any—when I become Catholic, not for me or anything like that, or because I was pulled away.
这只是令人悲伤。 It’s just sad.
所以所有这些事情都在同时发生。 So all this stuff’s happening at the same time.
我对我的信仰感到悲伤，我不想再去教会了。 I’m sad about my faith; I don’t want to go to church anymore.
我投入了全部的心血——希望这个礼仪能起作用。 I put my heart and soul—hoping this liturgy thing will work.
叮！ Ding!
我心想，刚才发生了什么？ I’m like, What just happened?
我是圣公会信徒！ I’m Anglican!
所以我们要回到爱荷华。 So we’re going to come back to Iowa.
我不知道这意味着什么，但这是正确的选择。 I don’t know what that meant, but it was the right thing to do.
离开那份工作真的很难，但我的孩子们需要认识他们的家人，我想回家。 And that was really hard to leave that job, but my kids need to know their families, and I want to go home.
让他们在成长过程中能认识他们的家人。 And to raise them so they can know their families.
我记得有一次就坐在那里——丽莎在踢足球——我想，我妈妈永远看不到她踢足球了。 I remember just sitting there one time—Lisa was in soccer—and I thought, My mom's never going to see her play soccer.
我不能接受这样。 I can't have that.
所以我们知道我们要回爱荷华。 So we knew we were leaving for Iowa.
所以在我们尝试了这个圣公会教堂之后，发现开车去那里太远了。 And so after we had given this Anglican church a try, it got to the point where it was driving too far.
我妻子来找我说，我想去公教会。 My wife came to me and said, I’d like to go to the Catholic Church.
当然，我们所在的教会已经分裂了，我不想参与进去因为他们都分散了。 And of course, the church we were a part of had split, and I just didn’t want to be involved because they were spread out.
我试图避开这些，因为分裂带来的所有痛苦。 I was trying to avoid that because of all that pain of the breakup.
所以我知道如果我去公教会，我的朋友一个都不会在那里。 So I knew that if I went to the Catholic Church, none of my friends would be there.
但我说，亲爱的，如果你想去——到这个时候，我已经研究 到——如果托马斯阿奎那能去那个教会，那我就不能反对。 But I said, Honey, if you want to go—at this point, I’ve been studying up to—if Thomas Aquinas can go to that church, then I can’t object.
但我心想，我绝对不会这么做。 But I thought, There’s no way I’m going to do it.
我不会成为公教徒。 I’m not being Catholic.
事实上，我不会成为公教徒！ And as a matter of fact, I’m not being Catholic!
以至于你在斯图本维尔的导师——或准导师——是我在S ES的评分员。我记得我在办公室里，正在做一些事情。 So much so that your mentor—or quasi-mentor—at Steubenville was my grader at SES. I remember being in my office, and I’m working on something.
我知道多姆已经——在这一点上，据我记得，对布兰登来说，这是一个理性的事情。 I knew Dom had been—at this point, as far as I remember, for Brandon, it was like an intellectual thing.
所以他是那群人中的一员——真的很聪明的一群人。 So he was part of a group of guys—really sharp guys.
我非常喜欢这些人，他们总是在思考问题。 I just loved these guys to death, and they were thinking about things.
他们总是——布兰登总是说，但是——无论我说什么，他总是说，你也需要想想这个。 And they’re always—Brandon’s always like, But— he’s always, no matter what I say, he’s like, You need to think about this too.
他就是这样的人！ That’s what he’s like!
是的，因为他也在做同样的事。 Yeah, because he’s doing the same thing.
所以我走出去，说，现在你是想告诉我公教徒真的相信你应该吃祂的身体喝祂的血？ So I walk out of there, and I said, Now you’re trying to tell me that Catholics really believe you should eat His body and drink His blood?
用完全布兰登-多姆的风格，他放下论文，打开圣经 ，读约翰福音第6章，合上圣经，然后继续批改。 In total Brandon-Dom style, he puts down the papers, opens up his Bible, reads John 6, closes it, and goes back to grading.
所以我说，如果你成为公教徒，我再也不跟你说话了！ And so I say, If you become Catholic, I’m not talking to you ever again!
然后他回到我的办公室，砰地关上门。 And he’ll go back in my office and slam the door.
所以这些事情都在这时发生。 So this is happening at this time.
我对成为公教徒不感兴趣；我妻子回到教会了，所以我有一段时间不去教会。 I’m not interested in being Catholic; my wife returned to church, so I don’t go to church for a while.
我该怎么说才能听起来合适呢？ And how do I say this so it sounds okay?
我很享受，我不喜欢我竟然喜欢这个，但我感到轻松，因为这时我知道我不是很福音派了。 I enjoyed it, and I didn’t like that I liked it, but I felt relief because at this point, I knew I wasn’t very evangelical.
在那个时候，不管发生什么，我对福音派都有很多疑问。 At that point, whatever that happens to me, I just have a lot of questions about evangelicalism.
但这时我离成为公教徒还很远。 But I’m not close to being Catholic at this point.
但我敬爱的岳父母来了——已故的吉姆和卡罗尔——他们来了并去了教会。 But my in-laws came, who I adore—the late Jim and Carol—and they came and went to church.
嗯，我想尊重我的家人，所以我和他们一起去参加弥撒。 Well, I was going to honor my family, so I went to Mass with them.
这听起来可能不太好，但当我去参加弥撒时，我走进门，完全没人理我。 This might sound bad, but when I went to Mass, I walked in the doors, and I was completely ignored.
这感觉很好，因为我已经习惯了我们去过的每个教会都会热情地招呼你。 And it was wonderful because I’m so used to every church we’ve gone to; they’re out there beating you.
迎宾人员没有什么不对，所以如果你是迎宾人员，我不是 在贬低迎宾人员或说什么不好的话，但这感觉不一样。 And there’s nothing wrong with greeters, so if you’re a greeter out there, I’m not throwing greeters under the bus or saying anything disparaging about greeters, but it was different.
是的，他们都只是——不仅仅是忽视我，每个人都是刻意地走进去。 Yeah, and they’re all just— it wasn’t just that I was being ignored; everyone was just walking in, like, intentionally.
他们走进去，我对霍莉说，他们在做什么？ They’re going in, and I said, Holly, what are they doing?
他们就这样走进去！ They’re just walking in!
她说，主在里面啊！ And she said, Well, the Lord’s in there!
你在说什么？ What are you talking about?
所以我走进去，看到他们都在跪拜。 So I walked in, and they’re kneeling.
我心想，我不知道他们在做什么！ I’m like, I don’t know what they’re doing!
这真的让我很困惑。 This is really confusing me.
他们在屈膝礼拜，我不理解那个。 They’re genuflecting; I didn’t understand that.
然后我不喜欢弥撒经书，我不知道发生了什么。 And then I didn’t like the missal; I didn’t know what was going on.
但奇怪的是，这反而吸引了我。 But in a strange way, that attracted me.
就像，这是——如果你要做这个，是的，这些事情告 诉我如果这对你很重要，你就会投入时间去弄明白。 Like, this is—if you’re going to do this, yeah, this stuff shows me if this matters to you, you put the time in and figure it out.
最后我真的弄明白了弥撒经书！ And I actually figured out the missal finally!
是的，弥撒经书是怎么运作的。 Yeah, how that works with the missal works.
但这真的让我震惊。 But this just shocked me.
看到这些——我从未见过这样的虔敬——我对我的孩子们说，这是不一样的。 And to see—and I never am I seeing the reverence—and I said to my kids, I’m like, this is different.
他们在这里，很安静，都在祈祷。 They’re here; it’s quiet, and they’re all praying.
感谢神，这是一群非常好的、虔诚的人。 So thank God, this is a very good, reverent body of people.
所以我说，好吧，在我们剩下的时间里，我愿意 和你一起去教会，因为作为一个家庭很重要。 So I said, Okay, our remaining time here, I’m willing to go to church with you because it’s important to be a family.
我不会让我的——我向女儿们道歉没有去教会。 I’m not going to let my—I apologize to the girls about not going to church.
我希望我道歉了！ I hope I did!
如果我没道歉，我相信她们回家后会纠正我的。 If I did, they’ll correct me when I get home, I’m sure.
所以在夏洛特剩下的时间里我们去了公教会。 So we went to Catholic Church the remaining time there in Charlotte.
然后我们搬回爱荷华，我不记得我是怎么知道他的名字的， 但圣帕特里克教堂的尼恩豪斯神父——简直是天赐之人！ So then we moved back to Iowa, and I don’t remember how I got a hold of his name, but Father Nienhaus at St. Patrick’s—you want to talk about a godsend!
我很爱戴那个人。 I love that man.
他是个非常有耐心的人，多么好的神父啊——非常严肃，完全的德国人作风。 He is such a patient guy; what a great priest—very dry, totally German.
所以我打电话给他说，这是公教会吗？ So I called him and said, Is this church Catholic?
我想要彩色玻璃窗。 I want the stained glass.
他说，这是镇上最漂亮的教堂之一。 He said, It’s one of the beautiful churches in town.
因为我告诉霍莉，这听起来可能很糟糕，但我想去最不像福音派的教会。 Because I told Holly, This is going to sound terrible, but I wanted the least evangelical church to go to.
我不想要社区中心，我想要教堂——圣帕特里克。所 以我去了那里，尼恩豪斯很有耐心地回答我的问题。 I didn’t want a community center; I wanted the church—St. Patrick’s. So I went there, and Nienhaus was patient with me, answered my questions.
我还在神学院做兼职教师，因为我在和家人一起参加礼拜。 I was still adjuncting at the seminary because I was attending with my family.
女孩们在我们离开之前刚受洗。 The girls had just gotten baptized before we left.
对霍莉来说，真正重要的是当她谈到——要么是她谈到要么 是她读到彼得·克里夫特的一些东西，因为她有一些顾虑。 And for Holly, what really mattered to her was when she talked to—either she talked to or read something about Peter Kreeft, because she had some hang-ups.
她是前公教徒或从小就是公教徒，对圣人的祈祷。 She’s a former Catholic or cradle Catholic, prayers to the saints.
所以要么是他告诉她要么是她读到的，克里夫特说，我们 请求朋友为我们祈祷，而祂是活人的神，不是死人的神。 And so it was either he told her or she read it, and Kreeft said, We ask our friends to pray for us, and He is a God of the living, not the dead.
就是这样！ And that was it!
她说，我的祈祷得到了回应。 She said, Got my prayers answered.
所以她来了并开始去教会，所以我也去教会为了在一起。 So she came and started going to church, so I’m going to church to be together.
我们搬回爱荷华，我们在那里去教会。 We moved back to Iowa; we’re going to church there.
我还在做兼职教师，没有考虑公教，但我在研究它，我在去教会，我被它吸引。 I’m still adjuncting, not thinking about Catholicism, but I’m studying it, and I’m going, and I’m being attracted to it.
但我没有意识到我被它吸引的程度。 But I don’t realize how much I was being attracted to it.
所以我不觉得这有什么大不了的。 So I didn’t think it was any big deal.
我想我可以去教会，不成为公教徒，这样也可以。 I figured that I could go to church, not become Catholic, and be okay.
所以我在下面教课，这突然击中了我。 So I’m down teaching a class, and this just hit me out of nowhere.
我们住在一个朋友家，她问起——他们刚从罗马 回来——这整个敬拜马利亚的事是怎么回事？ There’s a friend of mine that we’re staying with, and she’s asking about—they got back from Rome—what’s this whole worshiping Mary thing?
你知道，我一直在研究对马利亚的敬礼。 I’ve been studying, you know, devotion to Mary.
所以我说，不，这不是敬拜，这是对马利亚的敬礼。 So I said, No, it’s not worship; it’s devotion to Mary.
我开始向她解释，路德是如何敬礼马利亚的。 I started explaining it to her, how Luther had a devotion to Mary.
当我向她解释时，我发现自己也想这样做。 And as I’m explaining it to her, I find myself wanting to do it.
是的，我感觉我要下地狱了，好像我正在失去我的灵魂。 Yeah, I feel like I’m going to hell; like I’m losing my soul.
我被吸引到——我是说——我慌乱地给霍莉打电话。 I’m being attracted to—do I mean—I call Holly in a panic.
我说，亲爱的，我想我想去念玫瑰经之类的。 I said, Honey, I think I want to go to do a rosary or something.
这不好！ This is not good!
这真的不好！ This is not good!
我是说，我不喜欢这样！ I mean, I don’t like this!
但我只是说，闭上嘴，回家吧。 But I just said, Keep your mouth shut and just come home.
所以我回到家，说，我没想到会这样。 So I came home, and I said, I did not see that coming.
而且悄悄地——这确实是真的——我在爱荷华教的一些大学的课程开始和SES 的时间表冲突。所以客观上说，因为时间表改变了，我不能再在那里教书了。 And just quietly—and this is actually true—the classes at some colleges I was teaching at in Iowa were starting to clash with the schedule at SES. So just objectively, I couldn’t teach down there anymore because the schedule changed.
所以我用这个作为借口说，好吧，我不能再做那个了。 So I used that as a way of just saying, Okay, I can’t do that anymore.
让我开始思考这些事情。 Let me start thinking about these things.
所以我继续祈祷，但我一直纠结——非常纠结——在马利亚和教宗的问题上。 And so I kept praying, but I kept getting hung up—very hung up—on Mary and the Pope.
我不断学习和阅读，不断学习和阅读，但在情感上，我就是无法接受。 And I’d study and I’d read, and I’d study and I’d read, but just emotionally, I couldn’t get there.
真的很纠结。 Really hung up on it.
所以尼恩豪斯神父一直很有耐心地和我谈话。 So Father Nienhaus, being very patient with me, keeps talking to me.
我想，天啊，我不知道该怎么办。 I’m like, Man, I don’t know what to do here.
所以我继续为此祈祷，思考这件事，我和维塔莱神父谈了。 So I keep praying about it, thinking about it, and I talk to Father Vitale.
维塔莱神父说，如果你真的成为公教徒，你不需要弄 明白所有事情，而且会有些混乱因为这是个家庭。 And Father Vitale said, If you do become Catholic, you don’t have to figure everything out, and it’s going to be messy because it’s a family.
是的，是的，这是个家庭！ Yeah, yeah, it’s a family!
这真的打动了我。 And that just really hit home.
所以下次我和孩子们再去参加弥撒时，前排有些孩子在玩他 们的玩具车，很吵闹，父母们只是在努力维持秩序，对吧？ So I went back to Mass the next time with the kids, and there were these kids in the front pew, and they’re playing with their cars, being really loud, and the parents are just trying to keep it together, right?
试图集中注意力。 Trying to pay attention.
尼恩豪斯神父甚至没有在意这些，他只是继续讲道，度过这个夏天。 Father Nienhaus isn’t even paying attention to it; he’s just giving his homily, going through the summer.
我坐在这里很恼火，心想，他们为什么要这样？ And I’m sitting here annoyed, and I’m like, Why are they doing this?
要么是我妻子那时对我说的，要么是在其他时候 说的，她说，嗯，他们在这里，他们在教会里。 And either my wife said it to me that time or at some other time, she said, Well, they’re here; they’re in church.
你知道他们的一周是什么样的吗？ You know what their week is like?
这就是公教会！ This is the Catholic Church!
我去过的任何教会，他们都要求孩子们离开。 Wherever the church I went to, they asked the kids to leave.
然后我的岳父说，嘿，孩子们想说什么就说什么，他们是房间里唯一纯真的声音。 And then my father-in-law said, Hey, the kids can talk all they want; they’re the only innocent voices in the room.
他们是可以这样做的人。 They’re the ones that get to.
直到今天，当我坐在弥撒中听到后面有小孩子说话时，我 都会想，是的，你们想说什么就说什么，你们是纯真的！ To this day, when I’m sitting there in a Mass and I hear little kids talking in the back, I’m like, Yeah, you can talk all you want; you’re innocent!
所以这就是那种世俗性。 So it’s that earthiness.
我开始看到它的大公性，所以这是一个真正的垫脚石——看到这一点。 I started seeing the catholicity of it, so that was a real stepping stone—seeing that.
然后我去了卢姆书店。 And then I went up to Loom Booksellers.
所以又是这些小小的顿悟时刻。 So again, it’s all these little huh moments.
这是描述这段旅程的好方式——啊！ That’s a good way of describing the journey—huh!
啊！ Huh!
在卢姆书店又一个顿悟时刻——这是明尼苏达州斯蒂尔沃特的一家很棒的书店。 Another huh moment up at Loom Booksellers—a great book up in Stillwater, Minnesota.
现在已经不在那里了，但它曾经在一个教堂里——有二十五万册书！ It’s not there anymore, but it used to be in a church—a quarter of a million volumes!
哇！ Wow!
是的，公教会。 Yeah, Catholic Church.
它有公教神学的书，但基本上是由公教徒经营的。 It had Catholic theology, but it was basically run by Catholics.
我穿着爱荷华鹰眼队的衬衫，所以我坐在那里，当然是在看托马斯阿奎那的区域。 And I had my Iowa Hawkeye shirt on, so I’m sitting there, and I’m looking at the Thomas Aquinas section, of course.
一个人走过来说，鹰眼队！ And this guy walks by; he said, Hawkeye!
是啊！ Yeah!
他说，嗯，我去过艾姆斯。 He said, Well, I went to Ames.
我忘了说话。 I forgot to talk.
他说，嗯，我有个好朋友是圣公会神父。 He said, Well, I have a good friend of mine who’s an Anglican priest.
然后他说，是哪种圣公会？ And he said, What kind of Anglican?
哪种圣公会？ Which kind of Anglican?
我坐在那里想，什么哪种？ And I sat there, I’m like, What kind?
所以我说了几个，他说，不是，不是，不是。 And so I went through several, and he said, Nope, nope, nope.
最后我说对了，他说，哦，是那种圣公会，然后就走开了。 And I finally got the right one, and he said, Oh, that kind of Anglican, and walked away from me.
在那一刻，我坐在那里有点震惊，因为我没想到会这样。 And in that moment, I’m sitting there kind of stunned a little bit because I wasn’t expecting that.
突然间，合一性！ And all of a sudden, the unity!
我在这个书店里，这里有二十五万本书。 Here I am in this bookstore; there’s a quarter of a million books.
这里有所有的教父——有奥古斯丁，有托马斯，有所有人——我能感受到那种合一性。 You’ve got all the Church Fathers—you’ve got Augustine, you’ve got Thomas, you’ve got everybody—and just I could sense the oneness.
尽管有所有不同的神学辩论，所有的讨论，所有公教神学家和哲学家关注的 细节——所有他们做的逻辑分析——他们都能诵读信经，他们是合一的。 They’re one for all the different theological debates, for all the discussions they have, for all the different minutiae that the Catholic theologians and philosophers—all the logic chopping they do—they can say the Creed; they’re one.
而圣公会做不到这一点。 And the Anglicans can’t do that.
也许这种合一性有些道理。 Maybe there’s something to this oneness.
我能感受到。 I can feel it.
是的，然后我在一个哲学会议上也看到了这一点，看到所有这些重量级人物。 Yeah, and then I also saw that at a philosophy conference, seeing all these heavyweights.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
埃莉诺·斯坦普在那里，保利·巴塔利亚在那里，亚历山大·普 鲁斯特在那里，乔什·霍克希尔德在那里——真正的知识巨人。 Eleanor Stump was there, Pauli Battaglia was there, Alexander Proust was there, Josh Hochschild was there—real intellectual giants.
看着他们上前向主鞠躬，领受祂，唱诗敬拜，我想，这真是——这是不一样的！ And to watch them go up and bow to the Lord and receive Him and singing and worshiping, I’m like, This is just—this is different!
我不喜欢这样，因为，再说一次，马利亚的事情对我来说真的是个障碍。 And I don’t like it because, again, the Mary thing was really a hang-up for me.
我真的感觉我在失去我的信仰，我感觉我在加入一个邪教。 I really feel like I’m losing my faith; I feel like I’m joining a cult.
这只是情感而已。 And it was just emotion.
所以我和塔利神父谈论这个。 So I’m talking to Father Tully about this.
他说，继续为此祈祷，继续祈祷。 He said, Just keep praying about it; keep praying about it.
但他说，你可能得不到答案。 But he said, You may not get an answer.
你可能得不到你问题的答案。 You may not get an answer to your question.
也许你只需要进来。 Maybe you just need to come in.
所以感谢神赐给我们托马斯阿奎那！ And so thank God for Thomas Aquinas!
所以我要回到公共博士，对吧？ So I’m going to go back to the Doctor Communis, right?
公共博士！ The Common Doctor!
我在读关于信仰的问题，有一个问题——我记不清是什么问题或什么文 章了——但是是关于异端者和信徒在相信同样的事情时是否都有信仰。 And I was reading the issue on faith, and there’s a question—I can’t remember what question it is or what article—but it’s about whether or not the heretic and the person of faith both have faith when they believe the same thing.
比如说异端者相信三位一体。 So let’s say the heretic believes in the Trinity.
所以异端者有正统的信仰。 So the heretic has the right orthodox belief.
在这一点上他有信仰吗？ Does he have faith on that point?
是的！ Yeah!
托马斯说不，因为他不是——所以在物质上它们是一样的，意味着相同的信仰。 And Thomas says no, because he’s not—so materially they’re the same; it means the same belief.
因为他把自己与教会分离了，是的，从形式上说他不是因为神的权威而相信。 Because he’s separated himself from the body, yes, formally he’s not believing it because of God’s authority.
天啊！ Like, holy cow!
突然间，约翰福音第6章在我心中涌现。 And all of a sudden, John 6 is going through me.
关于约翰福音第6章，我想让人们知道的是：这是少 数几次你向耶稣提出问题能得到直接答案的时候。 And here’s the thing about John 6 that I would like people to know: it’s one of the few times that actually your question that you would ask Jesus, you get a straight answer.
在那段讲话中，祂在谈论吃祂的肉和喝祂的血。 So in that discourse, He’s talking about eating His flesh and drinking His blood.
祂为世界舍祂的肉体和所有这些事情——你们必须吃我的肉，喝我的血。 He’s giving His flesh for the world and all these things—you need to eat My flesh and drink My blood.
我在读完托马斯之后读到这段，然后他们问——犹太人说，这个人怎么能这样说呢？ And I’m reading this just after reading Thomas, and then they ask—the Jews said, How can this man say this?
这也是我的问题，对吧？ which is my question, right?
而祂更加强调了四倍！ And He quadruples down!
我想，这就是托马斯在说的。 And I thought, This is what Thomas is talking about.
这不是——要么我相信祂，要么不信。 This isn’t—either I’m going to believe Him or I’m not.
后来祂说，那些因为这教导太难而离开的人。 And then later, He said, Those who leave because this is a difficult teaching.
我发现自己就在那个位置。 I found myself right there.
当祂问彼得，你们也要离开吗？ And when He asked Peter, Are you going to leave Me too?
彼得没有说，哦，我已经弄明白了。 Peter didn’t say, Oh, I’ve got this figured out.
我是说，就我们所知，我们应该吃你的拇指，我不知道。 I mean, for all we know, we’re supposed to eat your thumb; I don’t know.
但他说，如果你说了，因为只有你有永生之道。 But he said, If you say it, for only You have the words of eternal life.
我想，我必须这样做！ And I thought, I have to!
我必须相信，我必须在这里有信心。 I’m going to have to believe; I’m going to have to have faith here.
那时我已经知道得够多了——有很好的理由，所以我并不是在牺牲理性。 And I knew enough at the time—there are good reasons, so I wasn’t sacrificing my head.
有很好的理由相信马利亚无原罪受孕，有很好的理由相信她无罪。 There are good reasons to believe that Mary is immaculately conceived; there are really good reasons to believe that she was sinless.
这些事情都有很好的理由——相信教宗制度有很好的理由。 There are good reasons for those things—very good reasons to believe in the papacy.
但这对我的心来说还不够。 But it wasn’t sufficient for my heart to go in.
我记得一直在为此祈祷，我从神那里得到感动，就像，你必须就这样进来。 And I remember praying and praying about it, and I got the sense from God, like, You’re going to have to come in just like this.
我不会为你回答这些问题。 I’m not going to answer these things for you.
这不会来自你的头脑，我受够那个了。 It’s not going to be from your head; I’m done with that.
你必须凭信心进来，就像托马斯说的。 You’re going to have to come in by faith, like Thomas said.
所以我打电话给尼恩豪斯神父说，我准备好加入教会了。 And so I called Father Nienhaus and I said, I’m ready to join the Church.
他说，好的。 He said, Okay.
我不想有什么大张旗鼓的仪式，所以感谢神，是在一个周 六下午或周日早上——我记不清了——在我们的小堂里。 And I didn’t want to be any big fanfare, so God bless him, it was on a Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning—I can’t remember what it was—in our chapel.
我的父母来了，他们不是公教徒，但他们还是来了。 My mom and dad came; they’re not Catholic, but they still came.
愿神保佑他们！ God bless them!
我的孩子们在那里，我的岳父母也在那里。 My kids were there, and my in-laws were there.
我记得当我妻子走上前来时，她是我的代父。 And I remember when my wife came up; she was a sponsor.
当我加入时，我在发抖——至少在存在层面上。 And when I was joining, I was shaking—at least existentially.
我感觉我好像在离开信仰，我感觉我遇到麻烦了——真的是又惧怕又战兢！ I felt like I was leaving the faith; I felt like I was in trouble—literally fear and trembling!
就像，我不想这样做！ Like, I don’t want to do this!
我不想这样做！ I don’t want to do this!
我不敢相信我在做这个！ I can’t believe I’m doing this!
但一旦我领受了，我就再也没有那种感觉了。 And then once I received, I have never felt that way since.
那种感觉瞬间就消失了！ It was gone in an instant!
之后，我感觉很好。 And so afterwards, I felt great.
我心想，哇！ I’m like, Wow!
我不再担心那些事情了。 I’m not worried about those things anymore.
感谢神赐予的所有恩典！ Thank you, God, for all that grace!
然后我们去了一家披萨店/酒吧喝啤酒吃披萨，我爸爸说，我们要去喝啤酒吃披萨。 And then we went to a pizza place/bar to get pizza and beer, and my dad said, We’re going to get beer and pizza.
我说，我是公教徒了！ I said, I’m Catholic!
我可以和我的同道在一起了！ I get to be with my people!
是的，我很享受那一刻！ Yeah, I enjoyed that!
是的，这就是我如何成为公教徒的。 Yeah, so that’s how I became Catholic.
从那时起直到今天，我一直喜欢这种世俗性。 And then to this day, since then, I have loved the earthiness.
我喜欢孩子们说话的时候。 I love when the kids talk.
我从未有一秒后悔过。 I have never for one second regretted it.
我没有失去所有的朋友，但他们在想，他怎么了？ I lost not all my friends, but they think, What happened to him?
我仍然是以前的那个人，但面对这些事情，发现什么是真正的基督 教——它的完整性——看到托马斯阿奎那教导的内容和圣体圣事。 I’m still the same guy I was before, but confronting these things, finding out what real Christianity—the fullness of it—seeing what Thomas Aquinas taught and the Eucharist.
我相信这是一个常见的故事。 And that’s a common story, I’m sure.
是的，是的！ Yeah, yeah!
是的，这是个很棒的故事。 Yeah, it’s a great story.
我想回过头来谈几件事。 I wanted to circle back on a couple of things.
当然！ Sure!
你知道，再次让我印象深刻的一件事是——显然有一部分是你在处 理知识层面的东西，但在你的故事中有很多顿悟的时刻，对吧？ You know, so one of the things that strikes me again about the story—there’s obviously a part of this where you’re working through the intellectual stuff, but there are many points in your story where you have these huh moments, right?
对！ Right!
更多的是一种感觉，这个信仰是否适合我这样的存在？ And it’s more a sense of, Does this faith fit the kind of being that I am?
对！ Right!
这很好！ That’s good!
你不一定能完全弄明白，但你可以尝试并说，这似乎适合 人类存在——我的人性——以一种我之前所没有的方式。 You can’t necessarily figure it out, but you can put it on and say, But this seems to fit human being—my human nature—in a way that what I had before didn’t have.
对！ Right!
是的，所以确实有一种叫做公教文化的东西。 Yeah, so there’s definitely something called Catholic culture.
是的，是的！ Yeah, yeah!
作为福音派背景——这对我来说完全陌生。 So to be evangelical, the background—this was totally foreign to me.
你说得对！ You’re right!
这就像是整个人都在转变。 It’s like getting converted—the whole part of you.
因为当我小时候去过几个不同的新教教会时，那很——那是一种礼堂 式的东西，他们欢迎你参加聚会，但身体不在那里，血也不在那里。 Because when I went to a couple of different Protestant churches growing up, it was very—it’s an auditorium-type thing, and they welcome you to the meeting, but the body isn’t there; the blood isn’t there.
有一次——好吧，我们去了夏洛特的一个教会。 There was one time—okay, so we went to a church in Charlotte.
我忘了这件事！ I forgot about this!
就在我们离开之前，他们说，嘿，我们一直在读 这本礼仪书，我们要每月举行一次主的晚餐。 Just before we left, they said, Hey, we’ve been reading in this liturgical book, and we’re going to have every month a Lord’s Supper.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
他们是这样做的，他们会撕下面包，一小块一小块的，然后递给你，他们有一个杯子。 And so how they did it was they’d tear off the bread, pieces of it, and they’d hand it to you, and they had a cup.
我想你应该是要蘸一下然后吃掉。 And I think you were supposed to dip it and then eat it.
但我妻子直接去拿圣爵，因为她就是这样长大的，他们都看着她。 But my wife went right for the chalice because that’s where she grew up, and they’re looking at her.
她说，哦，我应该蘸一下的。 She said, Oh, I’m supposed to dip it.
对不起！ Sorry!
你知道，但他们说他们学会了。 You know, but they said they picked it up.
这是我第二次去那里，那时我一直在读圣托马斯和彼得·克里夫特。 This was the second time I went there, and I’d been reading St. Thomas and Peter Kreeft.
他们把基督的身体撕开了。 They tore it apart in the body of Christ.
真尴尬！ Embarrassing!
我说，不，不是的！ I said, No, it’s not!
然后我回去坐下了。 And I went back and sat down.
是啊，不是个好举动！ Yeah, not a good move!
确实不是个好举动！ But not a good move!
但我不知道那是从哪里来的——就像，我为什么要说那个？ But I don’t know where that came from—like, why would I say that?
我为什么要说那个？ Why would I say that?
所以我坐下来感到很尴尬，但后来我去了公教会。 So I kind of sat down and got embarrassed, but then I went to the Catholic Church.
就是很合适！ It just fit!
我是说，这是一些合适的东西。 I mean, this is something that fits.
当你有祭衣，有虔敬，有圣桌，有祈祷——我简直不敢相信有这么多圣经！ When you’ve got the vestments, and you’ve got the reverence, and you’ve got the table, and you have the prayer—I could not believe all the Scripture!
所以作为一个被抚养长大的人——当你是福音派的时候——直到今天，我都很感谢我 的成长环境，特别是像杰夫·道奇和彼得·马修斯这样的人，因为他们强调圣经。 So someone who’s raised—so when you’re evangelical—and to this day, I am so thankful for my upbringing, especially people like Jeff Dodge and Peter Matthews, because they emphasized Scripture.
所以我们小组里有圣经测验。 So we had tests on Scripture in our group.
我记得去那里时，哈罗德考我圣经。 I remember going over, and Harold questioned me on the Scripture.
我们有圣经测验，祈祷——我们每周一早上都要祈祷，不管你喜不喜欢！ We had Scripture tests, prayer—we had Monday morning prayer every morning, whether you liked it or not!
早起去联合会祈祷。 Get up early and go to the union and pray.
传福音，对吧？ Evangelization, right?
分享你的信仰，对吧？ Sharing your faith, right?
还有那些高道德标准。 And then the high standards of morality.
所以这些东西我都带在身上。 So those things I took with me.
然后当我去神学院时，他们加入了对教会历史真理的忠诚。 And then when I went to seminary, they threw in faithfulness to the truth in church history.
所以讽刺的是，成为公教徒，老实说我觉得我只是一个好的福音派信徒。 So ironically, becoming Catholic, I just think I’m just a good evangelical, to be honest with you.
所以那些祈祷——我不觉得我放弃了什么。 So the prayers—I didn’t feel like I gave up anything.
我想这可能是我要表达的：我没有放弃任何东西。 And I think that’s maybe something I would try to get across: I didn’t give up anything.
发生的事是因为我开始听这些东西——他们训练我相信圣经。 What happened is because I started listening to these things—they trained me to believe the Bible.
现在，在福音派中，他们在末世论上有争论——是否有被 提，千禧年——所有这些不幸地分裂这些群体的争论。 Now, in evangelicalism, they have debates in eschatology—whether there’s rapture, millennialism—all these debates that unfortunately divide those groups.
但按字面意思理解圣经，按圣经所说的来理解，当我读到约翰福音第 6章时，他们实际上是在训练我相信当祂说，看，这是我的身体。 But taking the Scripture literally, taking the Scripture for what it says, and when I would get to John 6, they were actually training me to believe when He says, Look, this is My body.
这不是比喻！ It’s not metaphorical!
所以这不像是阅读——我成为公教徒不是因为我读了一堆公教的书。 So it wasn’t like reading—I didn’t become Catholic because I read a whole bunch of Catholic books.
圣经里有我所说的公教经文。 The Scripture has what I call Catholic verses.
祂向他们吹气赐下圣灵。 He’s breathing on them the Holy Spirit.
所以再说一次，作为福音派，我认为我仍然是福音派的原因是因为当神说什么的时候 ，我在公教会中发现：当神说什么的时候，公教会说，好的，是的，就是这个意思！ And so again, being evangelical, the reason why I think I’m just still evangelical is because when God says something, I found this in the Catholic Church: when God says something, the Catholic Church says, Okay, yeah, that’s the point!
我也想再次提到你对礼仪的感受——当你进去时，没有人和你说话的那种感觉。 I wanted to bring out, too, your sense of liturgy again—the sense that when you went in, nobody talked to you.
现在，有时这种情况发生是因为我们在待客方面做得不够好。 Now, sometimes that happens because we’re not doing our job hospitality-wise.
对！ Right!
是的，是的！ Yeah, yeah!
所以这对我来说很重要。 So this was just, for me, significant.
但主要的是，这不是待客之道的问题，这不是社交活动。 But primarily, it’s not a hospitality thing; it’s not a social event.
这是一个活动，不是我们去寻找神，而是神在那里与我们相遇。 It’s an event where it’s not so much that we’re going to seek God, but God is there to encounter us.
有趣的是，公教经常被指责是靠行为称义或有太多宗教仪式。 And it’s interesting because oftentimes Catholicism is accused of works righteousness or there’s too much religious stuff.
但实际上，如果从消极的角度定义宗教是人寻找神——就像我 们做很多事情——公教在很多方面是我们退后一步让神来做。 But really, if one way to negatively define religion is man’s search for God—like us doing a bunch of stuff—Catholicism, in so many ways, is we’re stepping back and letting God do it.
圣事是神与我们相遇；礼仪是我们让开道路去遇见，你知道，进入 一些不是我们创造的，不是我们发起的，不是从我们开始的事物。 The sacraments are God meeting us; the liturgy is us getting out of the way and encountering that, you know, entering into something that we didn’t make, that we didn’t originate, that didn’t start with us.
所以你进入那里时有一点那种感觉——哦，现在不再像是我必须在这里填补空白。 And so you had a little bit of that sense entering in there—that, oh, now it’s no longer like I have to kind of fill in the blank here.
哦，是的！ Oh yeah!
是的！ Yeah!
如果我可以为告解做个广告——是的！ If I can give a plug for confession— Yeah!
哦，所以我来这里之前刚去告解，这样我就能做个好采访。 Oh, so I just went to confession before I came here, so I could give a good interview.
我不想有，你知道，任何——所以希望它起作用了！ I don’t want to have, you know, any—so hopefully it took!
是的，我们拭目以待，对吧？ Yeah, we’ll see, right?
也许24小时？ 24 hours, maybe?
嗯，确实起作用了！ Well, it did!
你知道，真的起作用了！ You know, it did!
因为这是真实的事情之一！ Because that’s one of the things that’s true!
这是真的！ That’s true!
所以我在那里告解，就像任何父亲一样，你会为某些事情挣扎。 So I’m in there confessing, and like any father, you struggle with certain things.
神父说了些话，这就是为什么我喜欢做公教徒。 And the priest said something, and this is just why I love being Catholic.
他说，神很高兴你在这里，你骗不了祂。 He said, God is so glad you’re here; you’re not fooling Him.
确实如此！ Like, true!
在进去之前，我想，我必须承认这个吗？ Before you go in, I’m like, Do I have to admit this?
就像，在这里，祂知道！ Like, here, He knows!
我就进去，我要承认。 I just go in; I’m going to agree.
他说，没有神的恩典，你不能爱你的妻子，你不能爱你的家人。 And he said, Without the grace of God, you cannot love your wife; you cannot love your family.
我想，没错！ I’m like, That’s right!
我不是一个人在战斗！ I’m not on my own!
我想这就是黑暗的来源。 And I think that’s where the darkness came from.
我总是觉得我是一个人在做这些事。 I always felt like I was doing this on my own.
所以就你说的，不，我没有——是的，这很合适！ So to your point, no, I didn’t—yes, this fits well!
我喜欢这个！ I love it!
这听起来像基督教！ This sounds like Christianity!
我不是——圣事——你不是一个人！ I’m not—the sacraments—you’re not on your own!
当他说，我赦免你时，我就像——因为多年来，你如何处理内疚？ And when he said, And I absolve you, I’m like—because for years, how do you deal with the guilt?
因为即使我会认罪。 Because even I would confess sins.
我记得读约翰一书和主祷文——为什么我要认罪？ I remember reading 1 John and the Our Father—why in the world am I confessing my sins?
我又要重复一遍！ I’ll go around again!
这些公教经文：我们在天上的父，愿人都尊你的名为圣。 These Catholic verses: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
愿你的国降临，愿你的旨意行在地上，如同行在天上。 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
今日赦免我们。 Forgive us this day.
为什么？ Why?
约翰一书：我们若认自己的罪，神是信实的，是公义的，必要赦免我们的罪。 1 John: If you sin, you know He is faithful and just and will forgive your sins.
我想，为什么？ I’m like, Why?
为什么？ Why?
我以为我已经被赦免了！ I thought I was forgiven!
我是说，我想这可能就是很多悲伤的来源，因为我知道我没有。是的，是的！ I mean, I think that’s probably where a lot of the sadness came from because I knew I wasn’t. Yeah, yeah!
这就是我所渴望的。 And that’s what I was longing for.
这就是我成为——这要追溯到戴夫·德拉维基的救赎，对吧？ That’s the reason I became—that goes all the way back to saving Dave Dravecky, right?
看到所有这些。 Seeing all of that.
神，当祂在那里开始时，祂就在那里开始了。 God, when He started there, He started there.
好的，我要带你进来，但我不能——如果祂那时试图带我进来，我会很抗拒。 Okay, I’m going to bring you in, but I can’t—if He tried to bring me in at that point, I would have been hostile.
是的！ Yeah!
我认为在很多人的生命中，福音派给了他们一个很好的开始。 I think in many people’s lives, evangelicalism gives them a great start.
它把他们引向基督。 It introduces them to Christ.
绝对是！ Absolutely!
我们有很多学生离开公教信仰是因为他们从未真正遇见基督。 We have many students who leave the Catholic faith because they never quite met Christ.
我遇到过很多这样的人。 I’ve met a lot of those people.
是的！ Yeah!
福音派把他们引向基督，这很好！ And evangelicalism introduces them to Christ, and that’s good!
当这种事发生时我们赞美神，对吧？ We praise God when that happens, right?
但是往往，他们缺少的——他们渴望的是，好吧，那我该如何行走这条路？ But then oftentimes, what they’re lacking—what they’re yearning for is, Well, then how do I walk this?
我该如何活出这样的生命？ How do I live this life out?
我该如何处理我的罪？ What do I do with my sins?
我该如何面对我已经得救但现在仍然是个废物的事实？ What do I do with the fact that I was saved and now I still am a bum?
是的，用废物来说很贴切！ Yeah, a bum is an excellent way of saying it!
是的，这是真的！ Yeah, it’s true!
确实如此！ It’s true!
我是说，我在努力，对吧？ I mean, I’m trying, right?
一些道德上的失败——你一定是在开玩笑！ Some of the moral failings—you’ve got to be kidding me!
我的行为不够好，而且我已经很接近了！ My works aren’t enough, and I’m close!
我很接近了！ I’m close!
我喜欢公教灵修的一点是——我读过一本书里有两个属灵真 理：第一个是对自己毫无信心，把所有信心都放在神身上。 And what I love about Catholic spirituality—there’s one book I read that has two spiritual truths: the first is put zero confidence in yourself and put all your confidence in God.
是的，是的，这很好！ Yeah, yeah, that’s very good!
好吧，我们还剩大约两分钟，我还有上千件事想和你谈。 Well, we have about two minutes left, and I have like a thousand other things that I wanted to talk to you about.
当然，当然！ Sure, sure!
但也许下次吧！ But maybe next time!
但在剩下的短暂时间里，如果可以的话——首先，你现在在哪里？ But in the short time we have left, if you would—well, first of all, where are you now?
你现在在做什么？ What are you doing now?
哦，好的，太好了！ Oh, okay, great!
是的，所以我是爱荷华圣言学院的哲学教授，在圣言会教托马斯阿奎那。 Yeah, so I’m a professor of philosophy at Divine Word College in Iowa, teaching Thomas Aquinas in the Society of Divine Word.
这是个很棒的地方！ It’s such a great place!
这是爱荷华的一个小镇，我们有来自世界各地的人。 It’s a little town in Iowa, and we have people from all over the world.
我们有来自海地、越南、尼日利亚、德克萨斯的学生——你们是德克萨斯人！ We have students from Haiti, Vietnam, Nigeria, Texas—you guys are the Texas people!
没错！ That’s right!
是的，所以我在那里全职教书。 Yeah, and yeah, so teaching full-time there.
是的，那太好了！ Yeah, that’s great!
是的！ Yep!
好的，所以，是的，如果可以说几句——如果有人和你有类似的背景，你 知道，可能来自一个破碎的教会，就像你成长时那样，但他们渴望一些东 西——可能渴望礼仪，渴望，你知道，某些东西——你会对他们说什么？ All right, and so, yeah, just a brief word, if you would—if someone’s coming from a similar background to you, you know, maybe from a broken church, you know, as you did when you grew up, but who’s yearning for something—maybe yearning for liturgy, yearning for, you know, something—what would you say to them?
我会说：不要——这是杜贝神父说的。 I would say this: do not—it's what Father Dubé said.
是的，杜贝神父是一位教导很多伟大灵修的人。 Yeah, Father Dubé is a man that teaches a lot of great spirituality.
他教导说，你不要用不遵循一个体系的人来判断这个体系，要用那些遵循它的人来判断。 So he teaches that you do not judge a system by people who don’t follow it; you judge it by those who do follow it.
而公教会——如果你想成为圣人，如果你想见到神 ，如果你想在生命中有神的同在，它就在那里！ And the Catholic Church—if you want to be a saint, if you want to see God, if you want to have the presence of God in your life, it’s there!
他们不能从你那里夺走它，没有人能从你那里夺走它。 They can’t take it from you; nobody can take it from you.
你想从公教，从你的基督教信仰中得到的一切——教会都提供，你都能得到。 Everything you want out of the Catholic, out of your Christian faith—the Church offers, and you can get it.
这太美了！ That’s beautiful!
谢谢你，杰森·里德！ Thanks, Jason Reed!
不，谢谢你！ No, thank you!
谢谢你！ Thank you!
圣托马斯阿奎那，为我们祈祷！ St. Thomas Aquinas, pray for us!
为我们祈祷！ Pray for us!
感谢您收看本期「归家之旅」节目。 Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Journey Home program.
我祈祷杰森·里德博士的故事能触动你的心。 I do pray that Dr. Jason Reed’s story touched your heart.
再说一次，如果你正在旅程中，或者你有故事要讲，我们很乐意听。 And again, if you’re on a journey or if you have a story to tell, we’d love to hear it.
所以请访问chnetwork.org So check out chnetwork.org
了解更多像杰森这样的故事。再次感谢今晚与我们在一起。 for more stories like Jason’s. Again, thanks for being with us tonight.
愿神保佑你！ God bless you!
我们下周再见。 We’ll talk to you again next week.
谢谢！ Thank you!