欢迎回到无耻教皇党，我是乔·赫施迈尔。 Welcome back to Shameless Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
因此，我将暂停我正在进行的关于回答无神论的五周 系列，因为现在是人们对炼狱有许多疑问的时候。 So I'm going to actually interrupt the five-week series I'm doing on Answering Atheism, because it's that time of year when people have a lot of questions about purgatory.
我在万圣节前录制这个，它将在诸灵节发布，这一天也是亡灵节。 I'm recording this a little before Halloween, it's going to come out on All Souls Day, which is also Day of the Dead.
由于这个季节，许多人对天主教徒对炼狱的信仰及其原因有疑问。 And because of the season, a lot of people have questions about what Catholics believe about purgatory and why.
顺便说一下，10月31日还是宗教改革日，纪念1517年10 月31日马丁·路德张贴他的95条论纲，这与炼狱有很大关系。 Oh, and by the way, October 31st is also Reformation Day, commemorating the October 31st, 1517, when Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses, which had to do a lot with purgatory.
具有讽刺意味的是，如果你回去阅读95条论纲，你会发现路德 相信炼狱，并且实际上只诅咒了一种人，那些否认炼狱的人。 Ironically, if you go back and read the 95 Theses, Luther believes in purgatory and actually condemns within anathema only one group, those who would deny purgatory.
因此，这相当有趣，新教的一种先驱诅咒那些信 仰大多数新教徒所信仰的东西，即不存在炼狱。 So it's kind of fascinating, the kind of forefather of Protestantism damns those who believe what most Protestants believe, namely that there's no purgatory.
这可以是另一个视频的主题。 That could be a subject of another video.
我想看一些更简单的东西。 I want to look at something a little simpler.
炼狱是圣经中的概念吗，还是仅仅是公教会编造的东西？ Is purgatory biblical, or is this just something the Catholic Church made up?
我将探讨四个支持炼狱的圣经论据，然后我将探讨四个反对炼狱的论据。 I'm going to look at four biblical arguments for purgatory, and then I'm going to look at four arguments against purgatory.
我将探讨的四个支持炼狱的论点包括：首先，任何不洁之物不能进入天堂；其次，为死者 祈祷的概念是圣经中的实践；第三，通过火得救；第四，我们可能称之为炼狱的初果。 The four arguments I'm going to look for in terms of being for purgatory, first, that nothing impure enters heaven, second, the concept of praying for the dead and that being a biblical practice, third, saved as through fire, and fourth, what we might call purgatory's first fruits.
然后，我将转向探讨四个反对炼狱的论点。 Then, I'm going to turn to look at four arguments against purgatory.
十字架上的小偷，这句话常归功于保罗，即身体不在即与主同在。 The thief on the cross, this line often accredited to St. Paul that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
第三，有人反对，基督不是已经完成了一切吗？ Third, the objection, you know, didn't Christ do it all?
他不是已经净化了我们吗？ Hasn't he purified us?
我们为何还需要炼狱这样的东西？ Why would we need something like purgatory?
第四，圣经对这个主题可以更明确。 And fourth, the fact that the Bible could be clearer on the subject.
所以在我深入论证之前，我想简要说明一下，什么是炼狱？ So before I dive into the arguments for it, I want to give just a brief word on the question, what is purgatory?
因为对于许多观看这个的你们来说，当天主教徒说炼狱时，你们可能对其含义有些模糊。 Because for many of you watching this, you may be a little vague on what do we even mean when Catholics say purgatory.
我们是在说有些人去天堂，有些人去地狱，还有些人去类似第三个地方吗？ Are we saying some people go to heaven, some go to hell, and some go to like a third place?
嗯，不，其实不是这样的。 Well, no, not really.
《公教会教理》解释说，所有在神的恩典和友谊中死去但 仍未完全净化的人，确实得到了他们永恒救赎的保证。 The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that all who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation.
所以这是首先要明确的事情。 So this is the first thing to make clear.
炼狱不是你本将去地狱，然后你得到重来的机会，得以再次尝试的第二次机会。 Purgatory is not some second chance where you were going to go to hell, but then you get a mulligan, get to like try again.
不，炼狱仅为那些得救的人准备。 No, purgatory is only for those who are saved.
它只为那些将要去天堂的人准备。 It's only for those who are going to heaven.
但死后，他们经历净化，以达到进入天堂之喜的必要圣洁。 But after death, they undergo purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
所以这些人是得救的，但净化不完全。 So these are people who are saved, but imperfectly purified.
我们将在进行中解释这意味着什么。 We'll explain kind of what that means as we go.
但这是指那些得救的人，他们仍然生活在罪中或以某种方式依附于罪。 But it's people who are saved, but still are living in sin or attached to sin in some way.
不是以他们完全与神隔绝的方式，而是以一种他们不能说自己无罪的方式。 Not in such a way that they're totally cut off from God, but in such a way that they cannot say they're without sin.
然后，《公教会教理》的下一段解释说，教会将这种选民的最终净化称为炼狱。 And then the next paragraph of the Catechism explains the Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect.
因此请再次注意，只有被选者进入炼狱。 So notice again, only the elect go to purgatory.
这并不意味着每个得救的人都会去炼狱。 Does not mean everyone who's saved goes to purgatory.
这意味着每个在炼狱中的人都是得救的。 It means everyone who's in purgatory is saved.
值得注意的是，他们是由耶稣基督所救赎的。 And notably, they're saved by Jesus Christ.
他们不是靠自己的努力得救。 They're not saved by their own effort.
所以我希望这一点很清楚，因为这将回应我所看到的一些对炼狱的误解和批评，这些误解 和批评将炼狱想象成一个重来的机会或一个我们自救的地方，而不是被基督救赎的地方。 So I'm hoping that's clear because that is going to respond to some of the misunderstandings and criticisms I've seen of purgatory, which imagine it either as a do-over or a place for us to save ourselves rather than being saved by Christ.
在这两种情况下，这都是完全的误解。 That's total misconceptions in both cases.
有鉴于此，让我们来看看支持炼狱的四个论点。 So with that said, let's look at four arguments for purgatory.
首先，任何不洁之物不能进入天堂。 First, that nothing impure enters heaven.
这是最简单的论点，让我们直接进入正题。 This is the simplest argument, and let's just go right there.
在我看来，这是最有力的。 In my view, it's the strongest.
首先要确定的是我们犯罪。 The first thing to establish is that we sin.
如果你有任何自我意识，这应该是立即显而易见的。 That should be immediately obvious if you have any self-awareness at all.
但在约翰一书中，我们被告知，如果我们说我们没 有罪，我们就是欺骗自己，真理不在我们里面。 But in 1 John, we're told if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
无论你是否被选，你仍然犯罪。 Whether you are elect or not, you still sin.
正义的人跌倒七次，箴言如是说。 The just man falls seven times, Proverbs says.
所以这是一个问题。 So that's a problem.
为什么这是一个问题？ Why is that a problem?
除了罪是对神的冒犯这一显而易见的原因外，启示录第21 章第27节还告诉我们，任何不洁之物都不能进入天堂。 Well, besides the obvious reasons that sin is an offense against God, we're also told in the book of Revelation, chapter 21, verse 27, that nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
所以天堂中没有任何不洁之物，没有任何不干净之物。 So nothing impure, nothing unclean is in heaven.
然而我们，尽管相信基督，仍然犯罪。 And yet we, despite belief in Christ, still sin.
现在，我将给出我所称的阿金-弗拉德论点，原因是我从马特·弗拉德那 里得到了这个论点，他又是从吉米·阿金那里得到的，我实际上不知道这 个措辞最初是吉米的还是马特的。所以阿金-弗拉德，我就用这个。 Now, I'm going to give what I'm calling the Akin-Fradd argument, and the reason is I got it from Matt Fradd who got it from Jimmy Akin, and I don't actually know if the wording is originally Jimmy's or Matt's. So Akin-Fradd, that's what I'm going with.
这只是一种非常简单地提出这个论点的方式。 And it's just a way of putting this argument really simply.
第一个前提，天堂中既没有罪也没有对罪的依恋，对吗？ The first premise, there will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven, right?
就像你在天堂不会有欲望、偷窃、谋杀或做任何类似的事情。 Like you're not going to be lusting or stealing or murdering or doing anything like that in heaven.
你甚至都不会想去做那些事情。 You're not even going to be wanting to do those things.
第二个前提，我们，至少我们中的大多数，在生命的尽头仍在犯罪，仍对罪有所依恋。 Premise two, we, at least most of us, are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of this life.
我们在这一生中并未得到完全的净化，因为如果我们已经完 全净化，我们就不会再犯罪，然而我们发现自己仍在犯罪。 We have not been perfectly purified in this life, because if we had been, we wouldn't still sin, and yet we find ourselves still sinning.
因此，我们得出结论，因此，在死亡与天堂荣耀之间，必须有一个时 期，在这个时期中，得救的人将被清除罪恶及其对罪的依恋，对吗？ Thus, we get to the conclusion, therefore, there must be a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin, right?
就像如果你是肮脏的，你必须清洁才能进入天堂，必须进行一些清洁、净化、净罪。 Like if you're dirty and you have to be clean to go into heaven, some cleansing, some purification, some purgation has to happen.
现在，我看到一些新教的回答对这个论点说，好吧，这将在转瞬之间发生。 Now, I've seen some Protestant answers to this argument where they say, well, it'll happen in the twinkling of an eye.
好的，很好。 Okay, fine.
也许你相信一个非常快速的炼狱。 Maybe you believe in a very fast purgatory.
也许你相信一个真正无痛的炼狱，但你仍然相信某种形式的炼狱。 Maybe you believe in a really painless purgatory, but you still believe in some kind of purgatory.
死后必须有某种净化过程，以便人进入天堂，然后我们就不再争论炼狱了。 There has to be some kind of purification that has to happen after death for the person to go into heaven, and then we're no longer arguing about purgatory.
我们只是在争论炼狱的性质和细节，但我们都同意死后必须存在某种净化过程。 We're arguing about just the nature and the details about purgatory, but we both agree some kind of purgative process after death has to exist.
现在，你会发现一些新教徒说，不，如果你是被选者，那就不真正是 罪，你知道，基本上只是否认他们仍然犯罪，因为他们已经得救。 Now, you will find some Protestants who say, no, it's not really sin if you're elect, you know, basically just denying that they still sin because they're saved.
约翰说那是自欺欺人。 John says that's self-deception.
我认为我做不到比这更好。 I don't think I can do better than that.
我认为即使在新教徒中，这也是一种相当少数的观点。 And I think that's a pretty minority view, even among Protestants.
所以我会从这里开始。 So I would start here.
问题不是，你能不洁净地进入天堂吗？ The question is not, can you go to heaven unclean?
问题是，如果你死时未完全净化，你如何变得洁净？ The question is, how do you get clean if you die imperfectly purified?
我认为，炼狱是对那个问题一个相当清晰的答案。 Purgatory is, I think, a pretty clear answer to that question.
现在，炼狱的细节仍然不清楚，因为看，来世时间性质的细节仍然不清楚。 Now, the details of purgatory are still unclear because, look, the details of the nature of time in the afterlife are still unclear.
我在另一个视频中提到过这一点，但我们想把我们对时 间的概念强加于天堂中的圣徒，我认为这是一个错误。 I mentioned this in another video, but we want to put our concept of time onto the saints in heaven, and I think that's a mistake.
因此，也许从我们的角度看，炼狱是极快的，或者是极慢的，我们的观点将与神的观点不 同，与正在经历炼狱的圣徒和天堂中的圣徒的观点不同，因为我们通过我们的身体处理时 间，而炼狱中和天堂中的圣徒，除了玛丽亚，她被假定为肉身升天，圣徒们没有身体。 And so maybe purgatory is extremely fast from our perspective or extremely slow from our perspective, and our perspective is just going to be different than God's perspective and different than the perspective of the saints who are going through purgatory and the saints in heaven, because we process time through our bodies and the saints in purgatory and in heaven, with the exception of Mary, who's assumed bodily into heaven, the saints don't have bodies.
所以他们对时间的体验将与我们的截然不同。 So their experience of time is going to be radically different than our own.
所以我认为，关于炼狱是快是慢的许多辩论，通过将 一种人类的时间标准应用于这个问题，有失偏颇。 So I think a lot of the debates about whether purgatory is fast or slow risk missing the point by applying a kind of a human standard of time to the question.
无论如何，一旦我们在辩论炼狱是快是慢，我们就不再 辩论炼狱是否存在，这就是我在这里想要展示的全部。 Either way, once we're debating whether purgatory is fast or slow, we're no longer debating does purgatory exist, and that's all I'm trying to show here.
如果有人要得救，除了极少数在死亡时完全无罪并与 所有罪恶脱离的人外，某种形式的炼狱必然存在。 Purgatory of some kind necessarily exists if anyone is going to be saved other than the perhaps very few people who are totally sin-free and detached from all sin by the time they die.
第二个论点，为死者祈祷确立了炼狱的存在，而为死者祈祷是圣经的教导。 The second argument, that praying for the dead establishes the existence of purgatory and praying for the dead is biblical.
那么让我们分两部分来讨论这个问题。 So let's address this in two parts.
首先，为什么为死者祈祷会确立炼狱的存在？ First, why would praying for the dead establish the existence of purgatory?
托马斯·阿奎那在《神学大全》中提到，这实际上是《大全》中的最后一个问题 ，他指出，对于在天堂的死者无需祈祷，对于在地狱的死者祈祷也无用，对吗？ St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa, this is actually the very last question in the Summa, he points out that there's no need to pray for the dead who are in heaven, and there's no use praying for the dead who are in hell, right?
天堂中的圣徒不需要你的帮助，地狱中的圣徒无法使用你的帮助。 Saints in heaven don't need your help, and the saints in hell can't use your help.
对不起，地狱中的灵魂无法使用你的帮助。 Excuse me, the souls in hell can't use your help.
所以，如果有人已经死去并下地狱，那就太晚了。 So if someone has died and gone to hell, it's too late.
记住，炼狱不是那些拒绝耶稣基督者的重新机会。 Remember, purgatory is not a do-over for those who've rejected Jesus Christ.
天堂中的圣徒不需要任何特别的帮助，因为他们正在体验深不可测、无限的荣耀。 And the saints in heaven don't need any special assistance because they're experiencing unfathomable, infinite glory.
所以，如果我们为死者祈祷，我们必然相信存在某种第三类状 态，即那些未完全净化的人实际上可以从我们的祷告中受益。 So if we're praying for the dead, necessarily, we're believing in some kind of third category of those who are imperfectly purified who can actually benefit from our prayers.
希望这一点非常清楚。 Hopefully that's really clear.
我认为从经验上讲，大多数人都知道这一点，新教徒通 常不为死者祈祷，因为他们不相信炼狱之类的东西。 I think experientially, most people know this, Protestants typically do not pray for the dead because they don't believe in anything like purgatory.
正如我们将看到的，天主教徒和东正教徒，传统的犹太 人也为死者祈祷，因为我们确实相信某种净化状态。 Catholics and Orthodox, as we're going to see, traditional Jews also pray for the dead because we do believe in some kind of purgative state.
我们这三个群体对那可能是什么样子有不同的看法。 We, all three groups, have different ideas of maybe what that looks like.
但再次强调，我在这里不担心的是细节，而是炼狱的存在。 But again, the details aren't what I'm worried about here, just the existence of purgatory.
那么我们在哪里可以看到为死者祈祷的圣经证据呢？ So where do we see the biblical evidence for praying for the dead?
有一个论点，我曾经认为不好，直到我更深入地研究它，那就是保 罗谈论欧尼西弗，他谈到他好像是在为他祈祷，因为他已经去世。 Well, there's one argument that I thought was bad for a while until I dove a little deeper on it, and that's St. Paul talking about Onesiphorus, and he speaks about him as if he's praying for him having died.
所以在提摩太后书4章19节，他说，问候百基拉、亚居拉和欧尼西弗一家。 So in 2 Timothy 4, verse 19, he says, Greet Prisca and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus.
所以他没有问候欧尼西弗，他是在问候他的家人。 So he's not greeting Onesiphorus, he's greeting his family.
现在，仅凭这一点是相当薄弱的。 Now, that by itself is pretty weak.
有一段时间，我以为这就是全部论点。 And for a while, I thought that was all the argument was.
就像，好吧，他在问候那个人的家庭。 Like, okay, well, he's greeting the household of the guy.
就像，不，不，不，回到提摩太后书第1章，你 会意识到这实际上是一个相当有说服力的论点。 It's like, no, no, no, go back to 2 Timothy chapter 1, and you realize this is actually a pretty convincing argument.
他用过去时谈论那个人。 He speaks of the guy in past tense.
他说，愿主赐恩给欧尼西弗一家。 He says, May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus.
他再次为那个人的家庭祈求主的怜悯，因为他经常使我精神振奋。 Again, he's praying for the Lord's mercy for the guy's family, for he often refreshed me.
他并不以我的锁链为耻，反而当他到达罗马时，他急切地寻找我，并找到了我。 He was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome, he searched for me eagerly and found me.
然后他说，愿主在那日赐他在主面前蒙怜悯。 And then he says, May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.
然后他说，你很清楚他在以弗所所做的一切服务。 Then he says, And you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.
所以请注意，在描述这个人过去的行为时，他祈祷他在审判日能从神那里得到怜悯。 So notice, in the middle of describing the past deeds this guy did, he has a prayer that he'll find mercy from God on Judgment Day.
那是保罗所说的那一天。 That's the day of which Paul speaks.
我们将回到那一天及其在保罗对我们净化等描述中的重要性。 We're going to get back to the day and its importance in Paul's kind of depiction of our purification and all this.
但总有我们的净化与审判日之间的关系，我们正在 被净化，以便我们能在审判日完全洁净地站立。 But there's always this relationship between our purification and Judgment Day, that we are being purified so that we can stand perfectly pure for Judgment Day.
而他在这里为这个人祈祷。 And here he is praying for this man for that.
看起来他，这将是一个关于某个活着的人的非常奇怪的段落。 And it looks like he, this would be a very strange passage to write about someone living.
这就是我要说的。 That's all I'd say.
你知道，假设可以吗？ You know, could you hypothetically?
当然可以。 Sure.
但我很难找到保罗或任何其他人这样谈论一个在世的人的地方。 But I'd be hard pressed to find anywhere where Paul or really anybody else talks in this way about someone who's, you know, walking the earth.
所以那是新约。 So that's New Testament.
在旧约中，有一个更清晰的段落，不幸的是，这在许多新教圣经中并不存在。 In the Old Testament, there's a much clearer passage that unfortunately isn't in many Protestant Bibles.
在我开始之前，我只想说一句话。 Before I get into it, I just want to say a word on this.
关于《玛加比下》，要否认它，你必须说它不是正典 ，不是神启示的，而且它的教义实际上是错误的。 Second Maccabees, to deny it, you would have to say both that it's not canonical, it's not divinely inspired, and that what it's teaching is actually wrong.
这真是一场艰难的战斗。 And that's a really uphill battle.
说你认为它不属于圣经是一回事。 It's one thing to say you don't think it belongs in the Bible.
另一回事是说你认为它不属于圣经，而且不是神的启示。 It's another thing to say you think it doesn't belong in the Bible and it's not inspired by God.
第三件事是说你认为它不属于圣经。 It's a third thing to say you don't think it belongs in the Bible.
它不是神的启示。 It's not inspired by God.
而且它教导了错误的教义。 And it's teaching false doctrine.
鉴于大量的圣经和早期基督教证据，这将是一个很难坚持的立场。 And that's going to be a really hard position to hold in light of a wealth of biblical and early Christian evidence.
我们将深入讨论所有这些。 We'll get into all that.
但首先，《玛加比下》有什么要说的？ But first, what does Second Maccabees have to say?
为了设定舞台，犹大马加比及其部下正在为以色列的自由而战。 So to set the stage, Judas Maccabeus and his men are fighting for the freedom of Israel.
在第12章，从第39节开始，有一段战后的描述。 And in chapter 12, beginning in verse 39, there's a description of the aftermath of a battle.
犹大和他的部下发现许多战友在战斗中死去。 And Judas and his men, they find a number of their fellow comrades have died in battle.
在每一种情况下，他们都有这些护身符，这些雅 尼亚偶像的神圣象征，而法律禁止犹太人佩戴。 And in each case, they have these amulets, these sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear.
因此，我们被告知，这就是这些人倒下的原因。 And so we're told it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
所以这些人处于一种非常奇怪的精神状态，一方面，他们相信神，并为以色列的自由而战。 So these are men who are in this very strange spiritual state, where on the one hand, they believe in God and are fighting for the freedom of Israel.
另一方面，他们陷入了迷信，并佩戴这些迷信的、偶像崇拜的勋章。 On the other hand, they've fallen into superstition and are wearing these superstitious, idolatrous kind of medals.
我想非常清楚地指出，他们在与希腊人作战，因 为希腊人迫使他们妥协了自己的犹太教信仰。 While I want to make very clear, they're fighting against the Greeks for making them compromise their Judaism.
所以他们处于这种奇怪的位置，也许像我们许多人一样，一方面，我们热情地支持神。 So they're in this strange position, maybe like many of us, where on the one hand, we are fervently pro-God.
但另一方面，我们与邪恶做了这些奇怪的妥协。 But on the other hand, we have these strange compromises with evil.
这就是这些人发现自己所处的情况。 That's the situation these men find themselves in.
那么发生了什么？ And so what happens?
因此，犹大和他的部下赞美主的道路，主揭示了隐藏的事物。 So Judas and the men bless the ways of the Lord, who reveals the things that are hidden.
然后他们开始为他们祈祷，恳求所犯的罪得以完全抹去。 And then they start praying for them, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out.
对吗？ Right?
他们不知道。 They don't know.
这些人会下地狱吗？ Are these guys going to go to hell?
他们会上天堂吗？ Are they going to go to heaven?
谁知道呢？ Who knows?
让我们为他们祈祷。 Let's pray for them.
让我们祈求他们的罪得到净化，完全被抹去。 Let's pray for the purgation of their sin, that it will be wholly blotted out.
这就是他们在第12章41节中明确祈求的。然后犹大马 加比告诉人们保持远离罪恶，因为他们刚刚得到了教训。 That's what they're praying for explicitly in chapter 12, verse 41. And then Judas Maccabeus tells the people to keep themselves free from sin, because they just, you know, lesson learned.
然后他进行募捐，用以献上赎罪祭。 And then he takes up a collection to make a sin offering.
所以，到目前为止，我们只知道领袖所做的事。 And so, so far we just have, okay, well, here's what the leader did.
你可以说，当然，以色列的许多领袖至少做了不完美的事情。 And you can say, well, sure, plenty of leaders of Israel did imperfect things, to say the least.
但文本接着说，在做这件事时，他行得很好，很光荣，考虑到了复活。 But the text goes on to say, in doing this, he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
因为如果他不期望那些倒下的人会再次起来，为死者祈祷就是多余的，也是愚蠢的，对吗？ For if he were not expecting that those who'd fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead, right?
就像，如果没有审判日，如果没有最终的复活，如果这一 切都不会有结果，那么你为死者祈祷就是在浪费时间。 Like, if there isn't a judgment day, if there isn't a final resurrection, if this isn't all going to come to something, then you're wasting your time praying for the dead.
但在第45节，如果他期望那些在虔诚中安睡的人 所得到的辉煌奖赏，这是一个神圣而虔诚的想法。 But in verse 45, if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
因此，他为死者赎罪，使他们可以从罪恶中解脱出来。 Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
所以这就是你能得到的最清楚的解释了。 So that's about as clear as you're going to get.
他为死者祈祷。 He prayed for the dead.
这就是他为死者祈祷的原因。 Here's why he prayed for the dead.
这就是他在精神上为那些已经去世的人所做的，帮助他们进行净化。 Here's what he's doing spiritually for those who've already died, to help them with their purgation, their purification.
那么问题就是，我们能信任《玛加比下》吗？ So then the question is just, well, can we trust 2 Maccabees?
在这里，我只想指出几件事。 And here I would just point out a couple things.
首先，新约信任《玛加比下》。 First, the New Testament trusts 2 Maccabees.
我的意思是这样的。 Here's what I mean.
在希伯来书11章中，有一个名单，一种圣徒的 名人堂，那些凭信仰生活并获得神的认可的人。 In Hebrews 11, there is this list, a kind of hall of fame of saints, those who live by faith and receive divine approval.
所以希伯来书1到2章大致说明了整个章节的内容。 So Hebrews 1 to 2 kind of lays out what the whole chapter is about.
跳到几乎最后。 Jump down towards almost the very end.
第35节说，妇女通过复活接收了她们的死者。 Verse 35 says, Women received their dead by resurrection.
有些人受到折磨，拒绝接受释放，以便他们能再次复活，过上更好的生活。 Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.
现在，在前面的34节中，据我所知，每个例子都来自圣经。 Now, in the preceding 34 verses, as far as I can tell, every example is from the Bible.
然后你读到第35节。如果你是新教徒，你可能会说，我不知道这段经文在说什么。 And then you get to verse 35. And if you're a Protestant, you might be saying, I don't know what this passage is talking about.
嗯，正如学者们指出的，这是因为它似乎暗指《玛加 比下》中的几段经文，而我们可以追踪这些语言。 Well, as scholars point out, that's because it seems to allude to a couple of passages in 2 Maccabees and that we can track the language.
因此，学者们之间实际上存在着关于《玛加比下》中哪两个不同段落最直接相关的争论。 So there's a debate about actually which of two different passages in 2 Maccabees is most directly in view between scholars.
但《玛加比下》是《希伯来书》第11章背后的观点被广泛接受。 But the idea that 2 Maccabees is what's behind Hebrews 11 is pretty widely held.
《希伯来书》第11章并不孤单。 And Hebrews 11 is not alone.
在约翰福音第10章，圣约翰说那是在耶路撒冷的奉献节。 In John chapter 10, St. John says it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem.
那是冬天，耶稣在圣殿中行走。 It was winter and Jesus was walking in the temple.
所以耶稣在圣殿里庆祝奉献节，这是一个冬季的犹太节日。 So Jesus is in the temple for the feast of dedication, a wintertime Jewish feast.
那是什么节日？ What feast is that?
那就是光明节。 Well, that's the feast of Hanukkah.
而且引人注目的是，如果你阅读犹太塔木德，它将这描述为一种光明节和所有这些。 And strikingly, if you read like the Jewish Talmud, it describes this as like a festival of lights and all of this.
它是圣殿奉献节的想法非常明确地来自《玛加比上》和《玛加比下》。 The idea of it being the feast of the dedication of the temple is pretty explicitly from 1 and 2 Maccabees.
这是唯一提到光明节的旧约经文，因为较早的书籍是在节日设立之 前写的，因为奉献是马加比人从希腊人手中夺回圣殿后的奉献。 And that's the only Old Testament passages that speak of Hanukkah because the older books were written before the feast was established because the dedication is a dedication by the Maccabeans after they retake the temple from the Greeks.
所以耶稣似乎在庆祝这个，这似乎是对《玛加比下》所说内容的很好的验证。 So Jesus is seemingly celebrating this and that seems like pretty good authentication of what 2 Maccabees is talking about.
因此请记住，如果你要否认《玛加比下》，仅说《玛加比下》不是正典是不够的。 So remember, if you're going to deny 2 Maccabees, it's not enough to say 2 Maccabees isn't canon.
这里的问题不是《玛加比下》是否在圣经中？ The question here is not, is 2 Maccabees in the Bible or not?
这里的问题要简单得多。 The question here is a much easier one.
《玛加比下》是在讲真话还是假话？ Is 2 Maccabees telling the truth or not?
看起来我们可以指出，约翰、耶稣在《希伯来书》第11章中支持《玛 加比下》被视为权威性的事实，至少被视为真实的，而且似乎在《希伯 来书》第11章中被视为经文，基于其他每一段都是出自圣经的方式。 And it seems like we can point to John, Jesus in Hebrews 11 in support of the fact that 2 Maccabees was treated as authoritative, as true at least, and seemingly in Hebrews 11 treated as scripture based on the way every other passage was something from scripture.
我们还知道早期基督徒经常引用《玛加比书》。 We also know the early Christians regularly referred to the books of Maccabees.
我的意思是非常早期的基督徒。 And I mean very early Christians.
奥利根是一个很好的例子。 So Origen is a good example.
在和平王子的一天里，他说，我们可能相信圣经的 权威，就像在《玛加比书》中的情况一样，等等。 In a day of Prince of Peace, he says, that we may believe in the authority of Holy Scripture that such is the case here in the book of Maccabees, dot dot dot.
所以他明确引用了这些书，在这种情况下，《玛加比下》作为圣经。 So he's explicitly citing to these books, in this case, 2 Maccabees as Holy Scripture.
你有时会听到人们说，哦，早期基督徒使用这些书，但他们并不认为它们是圣经。 You'll sometimes hear people say, oh, the early Christians use the books, but they didn't consider them scripture.
好吧，首先，即使那是真的，那也足够了。 Well, first, even if that were true, that would still be enough.
就像如果他们认为这些书是可靠的，并且这些书在教导关于为死者祈祷是好的一些事情。 Like if they thought they were reliable and these books are teaching something about how it's good to pray for the dead.
好的，很好。 Okay, great.
这是非常好的权威。 That's very good authority.
但这也不是真的。 But it's also not true.
就像早期基督徒经常引用这些书籍，因为他们相信这些是圣经，并且他们经常这样说。 Like the early Christians quoted these books a lot because they believed them to be scripture and they regularly said as much.
所以你有一个公正的案例，我认为。 So you've got, I think, a fair case.
《玛加比下》是真实的。 The 2nd Maccabees is true.
如果《玛加比下》是真实的，那么在炼狱中为死者祈祷当然是正确的。 And if 2nd Maccabees is true, then certainly praying for the dead in purgatory.
非常好。 Very good.
你也可以从犹太人的角度来看待这个问题，因为有许多犹太人为死者的祷告。 You can also approach this from a Jewish perspective, because there are a number of Jewish prayers for the dead.
所以犹大马加比既不是第一个也不是最后一个为死者祈祷的虔诚犹太人。 So Judas Maccabeus was neither the first nor the last pious Jew to pray for the dead.
艾伦·莱文在她的文章《犹太人对死亡的观点和习俗》 中谈到了这一点，她提到了所谓的悼念者的卡迪什。 Ellen Levine talks about this in what's called the Mourner's Kaddish in her essay, Jewish Views and Customs on Death.
所以悼念者的卡迪什，当有人去世时，你为他们祈祷。 So the Mourner's Kaddish, when someone dies, you pray for them.
如果是你的父母去世，习俗是为他们祈祷，为他们的灵魂祈祷，为期11个月。 And the custom, if it's your parent who dies, is to pray for them, for their soul, for 11 months.
她解释说，原因是人们认为特别邪恶的人需要至少一年的净化。 And the reason, she explains, is that it was thought that at least a year of purification was needed for the particularly wicked.
因此，如果你为他们祈祷12个月或更长时间，那就 表明你认为你的父母真的需要祷告来摆脱这种净化。 And so if you pray for them for 12 months or more, then that suggests that you think your parents really need prayers to get out of this purification.
现在，我们再次不需要讨论细节，这种净化到底 是什么样子，或者持续多久，诸如此类的问题。 Now, again, we don't have to debate the details, exactly what this purification looks like, or how long, anything like that.
简单的事实是，悼念者的卡迪什证明了犹太人对 炼狱的信仰，即使犹太信徒通常不称其为炼狱。 The simple fact is the Mourner's Kaddish is proof of a Jewish belief in purgatory, even if it's not usually called purgatory by Jewish believers.
这只是一个例子。 And that's just one example.
还有一种叫做El Malel Rahamim的祷告， 意思是充满同情心的上帝，如果我把发音搞错了，我道歉。 There's also a prayer called the El Malel Rahamim, which just means God full of compassion and apologies, if I'm butchering the pronunciation there.
罗纳德·艾森伯格在《我的犹太学习》中谈到了这一点，这是在葬礼上用颂歌 背诵的为逝者祈祷之一，以及当你拜访死者的坟墓时，特别是已故的亲人。 Ronald Eisenberg, in My Jewish Learning, talks about this, how this is one of the prayers for the departed that's recited with a chant at funeral services, as well as when you visit the graves of the dead, particularly dead relatives.
他解释了这是什么。 And he explains what it is.
这是一个请求，要求赋予逝者的灵魂适当的安息。 It's a plea that the soul of the departed be granted proper rest.
因为灵魂在乐园中的事实并不能保证它完全满足。 Since the mere fact that a soul is in Gan and Din, paradise, does not guarantee it complete contentment.
现在，这将非常重要，因为在犹太人的观念中， 天堂并不等同于与天堂中的上帝完美的幸福。 Now, that's going to be really important that paradise was not viewed in the Jewish mind as synonymous with perfect happiness with God in heaven.
因此，即使是在天堂中的灵魂，也可能仍然需要祈祷以获得适当的安息。 And so even the soul in paradise might be still in need for prayers for proper rest.
当我们谈到善贼时，你会看到这为什么相关，因为天堂和天国之间经常被混为一谈。 You'll see why that's relevant when we get to the Good Thief, because there's often a conflation between paradise and heaven.
所以这是第二种犹太来源。 So that's the second kind of Jewish source.
第三个来自犹太百科全书。 The third one is from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
拉比考夫曼·科勒给出了一个相当长的解释，关于犹太人对炼狱信仰的历史。 Rabbi Kaufman Kohler, he gives a pretty lengthy kind of explanation for the history of the Jewish belief in purgatory.
他说，这在一些拉比的段落中表达得很清楚，就像沙买派的教导一样，那是 沙买家的追随者，他引用了其中一个，在最后的审判日，将有三类灵魂。 And he says it's clearly expressed in some rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammites, that's the followers of the House of Shammai, which he quotes one of them, in the Last Judgment Day, there shall be three classes of souls.
义人将立即被记录为永生，恶人为地狱。 The righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting, the wicked for Gehenna.
然后是第三类，据说，他们的美德和罪恶相互抵消，他们 将下到地狱，在那里上下浮动，直到他们净化后升起。 And then this third category, those who it says, whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another, shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified.
因此，再次像这样的形象，他们在一段时间内处于类似地狱的状态，我们可以争论。 So again, like the image of this, where they're kind of in a hell-like state for a while, we can quibble.
但显然存在对净化火状状态的信仰。 But there's clearly a belief in a purification fiery state.
文本接着说，关于他们是这样写的。 And the text goes on to say, for of them it is written.
然后有提到撒迦利亚书13章。我想实际探讨一下 撒迦利亚书13章。所以我们将暂停在那一点。 And then there's a reference to Zechariah 13. I want to actually explore Zechariah 13. So we'll pause on that one.
然后给出的第二段经文是撒母耳记上第2章第6节，主使人下到阴间，又使人升上来。 And then the second passage that's given is 1 Samuel 2, chapter 6, that he, the Lord, bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again.
所以这种观念，像是对某种类似地狱的东西的净化 ，只是暂时的，对于这类不是永远被诅咒的人。 So this notion of like a purification of something hell-like that's only temporary for this class of people who are not the eternally damned.
他们根据圣经找到了这一点。 They're finding this based on scripture.
这对于那些声称天主教会只是编造这个的人来说将非常重要。 This is going to be really important for people claiming the Catholic Church just like made this up.
你知道，因为有人说，哦，他们给所有天主教徒洗脑。 You know, because it's one thing to say, oh, they indoctrinated all the Catholics.
但你会说他们给塔木德洗脑吗？ But are you going to say that they indoctrinated the Talmud?
他们给所有拉比洗脑了吗？ They indoctrinated all the rabbis?
他们给沙买家洗脑了吗？ They indoctrinated the House of Shammai?
他们在天主教会存在之前就给犹大马加比洗脑了吗？ They indoctrinated Judas Maccabeus before the Catholic Church even existed?
这到底是怎么回事？ How does this work exactly?
但现在让我们转向撒迦利亚书13章，因为这是一个有趣的段落。 But now let's turn to Zechariah 13 because it's an interesting passage.
我从未真正看到这一点被用于关于炼狱的讨论中。 And I'd never really seen this one used in discussions on purgatory.
但在撒迦利亚书13章8节中，主应许在全地，三 分之二将被剪除而灭亡，三分之一将被留下存活。 But in Zechariah 13, verse 8, the Lord promises that in the whole land, two-thirds shall be cut off and perish and one-third shall be left alive.
这现在听起来不祥。 Now that's ominous.
然后关于那被救的三分之一，第9节说，我要使这三分之一进入火 中，炼净他们如同炼银之人炼银，试炼他们如同试金之人试金。 And then of that saved third, verse 9 says, and I'll put this third into the fire and refine them as one refined silver, test them as gold that's tested.
他们要求告我的名，我要应允他们。 They will call my name and I will answer them.
我要说他们是我的子民，他们要说耶和华是我的神。 I will say they are my people and they will say the Lord is my God.
现在这是一个非常重要的段落，需要认真对待， 因为这是一个我们希望非常清楚的精神原则。 Now this is a really important passage to take seriously because this is a spiritual principle that we want to be very clear on.
这并不是说痛苦只是邪恶者或被诅咒者的专属，对吗？ That it is not the case that suffering is uniquely the province of the wicked or the damned, right?
就像这是一个误解。 Like this is a misconception.
在约翰福音中，当门徒看到一个生来就是瞎子的人时， 就有这样一个问题，这是因为他的罪还是他父母的罪？ When in the Gospel of John, when the disciples see the man born blind and then there's this question, well, was it because of his sin or his parents' sin?
这都不是，这是为了上帝的荣耀。 It's like neither, it's for the glory of God.
同样，在希伯来书中，有一个讨论，如果你是儿子，那么你将期望受到管教。 Likewise, in Hebrews, there's a discussion about how if you're a son, then you will expect to be disciplined.
有一类痛苦，即管教，实际上只适用于那些得救的人。 That there is a category of suffering, discipline, that actually only applies to those who are saved.
它只适用于与上帝关系正确的人。 It only applies to those who are in right relationship with God.
所以这是一个非常重要的事情，因为这意味着炼狱不是对基督救赎行动的拒绝。 So that's a very important thing to get straight because it means that purgatory is not a rejection of Christ-saving action.
炼狱只是基督救赎行动的结果。 Purgatory is only the result of Christ-saving action.
就像，对，只有因为这第三部分和撒迦利亚书13章中的人得救了，他们才能经历这些火。 Like, right, like only because this third and Zechariah 13 are saved, can they undergo these fires.
这不是诅咒之火。 It's not the fires of damnation.
这显然是一个得救的群体。 It is clearly a group that is saved.
现在，无论这段经文是否指的是炼狱，至少引人注目的是你有一群拉比在说它是的。 Now, whether that passage refers to purgatory or not, it's at least striking that you've got a group of rabbis who are saying that it does.
所以我觉得这真的很吸引人。 So I think that's really fascinating.
这自然而然地引出了关于炼狱的第三个论点。 That leads in really naturally to the third argument for purgatory.
这种通过火得救的观念。 This notion of those who are saved as through fire.
因为想想这里撒迦利亚书13章的背景。现在看看圣保罗在哥 林多前书3章中所说的。他说他就像一个大师级的建筑师。 Because think about the background here of Zechariah 13. Now look at what St. Paul has to say in 1 Corinthians 3. He says he's like a master builder.
他奠定了基础，另一个人在其上建造。 He lays a foundation and another builds on it.
但除了耶稣基督之外，你不能奠定其他基础。 But there's no other foundation you can lay other than that of Jesus Christ.
所以我们在这里只谈论基督徒。 So we're only talking here about Christians.
这是在哥林多前书3章中需要明确的重要事情。你如何在耶稣基督的基础上建造呢？ That's an important thing to get straight in 1 Corinthians 3. And how do you build on the foundation of Jesus Christ?
嗯，你可以用金、银和宝石这种好的方式来做，或者 你可以用木头、干草和稻草这种劣质的方式来做。 Well, you might do it in a good way with gold and silver and precious stones, or you might do it in a shoddy way with wood and hay and stubble.
保罗说，每个人的工作都将在那一天显现出来，因为那一天将揭示它。 And Paul says each man's work will become manifest for the day will disclose it.
再次，那一天指的是什么？ Again, what does the day refer to?
审判日。 Judgment Day.
因为它将在火中被揭示。 Because it will be revealed with fire.
火将测试每个人所做的工作的种类。 And the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
用它的犹太背景来阅读，对吧？ Read this with its Jewish background, right?
就像在得救的人中，有这种净化的火。 Like among the saved, there's this purifying fire.
所以他说，如果任何人在基础上建造的工作存活下来，他将得到奖赏。 And so he says, if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
现在，这不仅仅是救赎的奖赏，因为这整个群体都得救了。 Now, that's not just a reward of salvation because this whole group is saved.
如果任何人的工作被烧毁，他将遭受损失。 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss.
尽管他本人将得救，但只是通过火。 Though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
所以有一类基督徒拥有耶稣基督的基础，他们不会下地狱，他 们实际上得救了，但在死后，在审判日之前，仍将遭受损失。 So there's some category of Christians who have the foundation of Jesus Christ, who are not going to hell, who are in fact saved, who will still, after death, before Judgment Day, suffer loss.
他们将以某种方式遭受痛苦。 They will suffer in some way.
他们将得救，但只是通过火。 And they will be saved, but only as through fire.
所以我认为这是炼狱的第三个有力论据。 So there's a third, I think, solid argument for Purgatory.
保罗没有详细说明这将是什么样子，但净化之火的概念似乎相当清楚。 Paul doesn't go into great detail about exactly what this will look like, but the notion of purifying fire seems fairly clear.
第四个论点，我想从希伯来书中引出太阳受到管 教的概念，并谈论我们可能称之为炼狱的初果。 The fourth argument, I want to kind of draw this notion of the sun being disciplined from Hebrews out and talk about what we might call Purgatory's first fruits.
我想在这里考虑一下由英国圣公会的N.T. Wright提出的反对炼狱的论点。 I want to actually consider an argument against Purgatory here, made by the Anglican N.T. Wright.
现在，我喜欢N.T. Wright和关于炼狱的很多东西，我认为他是错误的。 Now, I love N.T. Wright and a lot of things on Purgatory, I think he's just wrong.
他有一本书叫《为了所有的圣徒》，他说，实际上，保罗在这里和其他 地方都明确表示，哥林多前书3章中的现世生活就是起到炼狱的作用。 He has a book called For All the Saints, and he says, in fact, Paul makes it clear here and elsewhere, 1 Corinthians 3 here, that it's a present life that is meant to function as a Purgatory.
现在的苦难，而不是某种死后状态，是我们必须穿越的山谷，以达到光辉的未来。 The sufferings of the present time, not of some postmortem state, are the valley we have to pass through in order to reach the glorious future.
现在，没有必要把这变成非此即彼的问题。 Now, there's no need to make this an either or.
作为基督徒，我们会说，是的，现世生活应该是炼狱般的，意味着 随着你在圣洁中成长，你应该越来越从对罪恶的依恋中被净化。 As Christians, we would say, yes, the present life should be Purgatorial, meaning you should be ever more purified from your attachment to sin as you grow in sanctity.
但有些人会在这个过程完成之前去世。 But some people are going to die before that process is complete.
所以对他们来说，他们要么因为不完全纯洁而不能去天堂， 要么已经在这一生中开始的净化过程必须在他们死后继续。 And so for them, well, they're either not going to go to heaven because they're not totally pure, or that purification process that has already begun in this life has to continue after they've died.
赖特说，现世生活时不时就已经够糟糕的了，天知道，更不用想象死后的悲观和厄运了。 Wright says, the present life is bad enough from time to time, goodness knows, without imagining gloom and doom after death as well.
这有点像是一种讽刺画。 It's a little bit of a caricature.
首先，对一些人来说，现世生活已经够糟糕的了。 First of all, the present life is bad enough for some people.
但还有其他基督徒，尽管他们相信基督，尽管他们得救了， 仍然以一种伤害他人并且从未纠正那些过错的方式生活。 But there are other Christians who, even though they believe in Christ, even though they are saved, still live in such a way that they've harmed other people and never made those debts right.
所以要么你只有永恒的不公，要么有某种治愈，某种以某种方式要求的正义的补救措施。 So either you have just an everlasting injustice, or there's some kind of healing, some kind of remedy that justice demands in some way.
现在，有些处理方式可能是错误的。 Now, there are ways of taking that, that would be mistaken.
但至少说现世生活时不时就已经够糟糕的了，这种说法过于简单化。 But it's at least too simplistic to say the present life is bad enough from time to time.
因为对某些人来说，这当然是真的。 Because for some people, it certainly is.
他们在地球上经历着净化，而其他人似乎没有。 They are experiencing a purgation here on earth, and others seemingly are not.
然后，赖特说了我认为最有趣的事情，他认为他知道为 什么但丁的中间卷《炼狱》是人们最容易产生共鸣的。 And then, Wright says the thing I think is the most interesting, that he thinks he knows why Dante's middle volume, Purgatory, is the one people most easily relate to.
因为他说，炼狱的神话是一个寓言，是从现在到未来的一种投射。 Because he says, the myth of Purgatory is an allegory, a projection from the present on to the future.
这就是为什么炼狱吸引人的想象力。 This is why Purgatory appeals to the imagination.
这是我们的故事。 It is our story.
这是我们现在所处的位置。 It is where we are now.
如果我们是基督徒，如果我们相信复活的耶稣为主，如果我们是他身体的受洗成员， 如果我们是他身体的受洗成员，那么我们现在正经历着形成通往生命之门的苦难。 If we are Christians, if we believe in the risen Jesus as Lord, if we are baptized members of his body, if we are baptized members of his body, then we are passing right now through the sufferings which form the gateway to life.
现在，作为天主教基督徒，我们可以同意很多东西。 Now, there's a lot there that we can agree with as Catholic Christians.
事实上，圣奥古斯丁在几个世纪前的《上帝之城》中提出了赖特论点的更好版本。 In fact, St. Augustine makes the better version of Wright's argument in City of God centuries earlier.
但他并没有把它变成非此即彼的问题。 But he just doesn't make it an either or.
他说，一些人在这一生中只受到暂时的惩罚，其他人在死后受到惩罚，还有 一些人现在和以后都受到惩罚，但所有这些都在最后和最严格的审判之前。 He says, temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment.
也就是在审判日之前。 That is, right before Judgment Day.
他说，但对于那些在死后受到暂时惩罚的人，并非 所有人都注定要受到随后审判所带来的永恒惩罚。 And he says, but of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting punishments which are to follow that judgment.
对于一些人，正如我们已经说过的，这个世界没有免除的东西在下一个世界将被免除。 For some, as we've already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next.
他们不会受到即将到来的世界的永恒惩罚。 It is they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.
所以这是一个重要的概念需要明确，是的，赖特绝 对正确，对于这一生，我们现在应该经历炼狱。 So that's an important kind of concept to get straight, that yes, Wright is absolutely right that for this life, we should be going through purgatory now.
圣奥古斯丁只是指出，有些人不这样做，他们稍后再做，有些人则经历了这两者。 St. Augustine is just pointing out, well, some people don't, and they do it later, and some people experience both.
实际上，无论你是否考虑过，这几乎削弱了每一个针对炼狱的新教论点。 That actually, whether you have thought about it or not, undermines almost every Protestant argument against purgatory.
例如，你不能说炼狱是邪恶的，因为它否认了基督在十字架上为 我们赢得的净化，然后又同时说，我们在这一生中也经历炼狱。 You can't say, for instance, purgatory is evil because it denies, you know, the purification Christ wins for us on the cross, and then say in the same breath, and also we undergo purgatory in this life.
嗯，如果这一生中的炼狱与基督在十字架上为我们而死是一致的，那么在我们 进入天堂之前，这一生之后的炼狱也与基督在十字架上为我们而死是一致的。 Well, if purgatory in this life is consistent with Christ dying for us on the cross, purgatory after this life, before we enter heaven, is also consistent with Christ dying for us on the cross.
我希望这一点很清楚，即我们在这一生中经历了一些炼狱过程，这从新约圣经以及 基督教生活中看似乎非常清楚，这应该是意识到对炼狱没有强烈反对的充分理由。 I hope that's clear, that the fact that we experience some purgatorial process in this life, and this seems abundantly clear from the New Testament, as well as just from Christian living, that should be good grounds to realize that there's not a strong objection to purgatory.
炼狱似乎与所有圣经证据一致，这当然是早期基督徒对其的理解。 Purgatory does seem consistent with all of the biblical evidence, and that's certainly how the early Christians understood it.
现在，既然如此，让我们从支持炼狱的圣经论点转向反对炼狱的圣经论 点，因为如果你说你相信炼狱，你可以预料到会听到几个这样的论点。 Now, with that said, let's turn from the biblical arguments for purgatory to the biblical arguments against purgatory, because there are several you can expect to hear if you say you believe in purgatory.
第一个是十字架上的善贼，我认为，十字架上的善贼是圣经 中最被误用的段落之一，但这是我小时候就相信的一个。 The first one is the good thief on the cross, and the good thief on the cross, I think, is one of the most misused kind of passages in scripture, but this is one that I fell for as a kid.
有一天，我想我是因为想家而没去教堂，因为我不能去教堂，我看了一个 新教的电视礼拜仪式，牧师在讲道反对炼狱，他引用了这段经文，他查看 了路加福音23章，其中善贼对耶稣说，耶稣，当你带着你的王权来时， 请记得我，耶稣对他说，我真实地告诉你，今天你将与我一同在天堂。 I was, I believe I was homesick from church one day, and because I couldn't go to a church, I watched a Protestant TV worship service, and the preacher was preaching against purgatory, and he looked to this passage, and he looked to Luke 23, in which the good thief says to Jesus, Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power, and Jesus says to him, truly I say to you, today you'll be with me in paradise.
牧师就像，啊哈，没有炼狱，因为他说今天这个贼将和他一起在天堂。 And the preacher was like, aha, there's no purgatory, because he says today the thief's going to be with him in paradise.
当时我还是个孩子，你知道，可能12岁，我想，哦，这很不错。 And as a kid, I was, you know, maybe 12, I thought, oh, that's pretty good.
天主教对炼狱的信仰似乎是没有根据的。 It seems like the Catholic belief in purgatory is unfounded.
嗯，后来我意识到牧师做了两个非常大的假设，我也在做，你知道，作为一个孩子。 Well, later I realized that the preacher was making two really big assumptions that I was also making as, you know, a kid.
首先，今天对耶稣的意义与它在地球上的意义相同，今天是，你知 道，耶稣受难日，在耶稣受难日，这个贼将与耶稣一起在天堂。 First, that today meant the same thing to Jesus that it would mean here on earth, that today is, you know, Good Friday, that on Good Friday, the thief is going to be with Jesus in paradise.
第二个假设是天堂意味着天堂，这个贼和耶稣将在耶稣受难日上升到天堂。 And the second assumption is that paradise means heaven, that the thief and Jesus are going up to heaven on Good Friday.
嗯，破坏这一点的是发现约翰福音20章17节，耶稣在复活节星期 天对抹大拉的马利亚说，不要抓住我，因为我还没有升到父那里。 Well, what blew apart that was discovering John 20, verse 17, in which Jesus on Easter Sunday says to Mary Magdalene, do not hold me for I have not yet ascended to the Father.
砰，就像，哦，好吧，我猜耶稣和善贼没有直接从十字架上升到天堂。 Boom, it was like, oh, okay, I guess Jesus and the good thief didn't go directly from the cross to heaven.
事实上，这节经文并不孤立。 And in fact, this verse isn't alone.
圣保罗在以弗所书4章说，当我们谈论基督升天时，这意味着什么？ St. Paul says in Ephesians 4, when we talk about Christ ascending, what does it mean?
但他也曾降到地的低处。 But that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth.
换句话说，不仅仅是耶稣从天上降临成为人的降临，而且在耶稣受难日之 后或在耶稣受难日，当她下去时，你可能会说，耶稣下去到底在做什么？ In other words, not just the descent in Jesus coming down from heaven to become man, but there's a further descent after Good Friday or on Good Friday, and when she goes down, and you might be saying, what in the world is Jesus doing going down?
一些新教徒相信，通常是加尔文主义者，认为他正在下地狱以某种方式受罚。 Some Protestants believe, usually of the Calvinist variety, that he's going down to hell to suffer punishment in some way.
这不是圣经所说的。 That's not what Scripture says.
彼得前书3章说，他去向监狱里的灵魂传道。 First Peter 3 says he goes to preach to the spirits in prison.
所以这就是耶稣为罪一次性死后所做的事情。 So that's what Jesus is doing after he dies for sins once for all.
他去向那些在监狱里的人传播这个解放的信息。 He goes and preaches this message of liberation to those who are in prison.
现在，这已经破坏了，你知道，耶稣和善贼已经 去了天堂的想法，但还有一些其他相关的经文。 Now, that already blows apart, you know, the idea that Jesus and the good thief have gone to heaven, but there are a few other passages that are relevant as well.
还记得那个今天对我们意味着与今天对上帝意味着同样的事情的想法吗？ Remember that idea that today for us means the same thing as today for God?
事实并非如此。彼得后书3章非常清楚地指出，在主那里，一天如千年，千年如一日。 Well, it doesn't. Second Peter 3 is really clear that with the Lord, one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are as one day.
记得我之前说过，当我们谈论炼狱时，不断的诱惑是将我 们的时间分类强加于这些精神实相上，这是一个错误。 Remember I said this earlier, when we talk about purgatory, the constant temptation is to impose our categories of time upon these spiritual realities, and that's a mistake.
另一个错误是假设“天堂”这个词自动必然意味着。 The other mistake is assuming that the word paradise automatically necessarily means.
天堂。 Heaven.
忒奥菲勒在写给奥托里克的信中，这实际上是181年的 信件。这是我们第一次看到使用“三位一体”这个词。 Theophilus, in his letter to Autolycus, this is actually the letter in 181. It's the first time we see the word trinity used.
他描述说，他引用了《创世纪》的希腊文版本，它说 ，所以“天堂”这个词意味着花园或像围墙花园。 He describes, so he's quoting from the Greek version of Genesis, and it says, so the word paradise means garden or like a walled garden.
他说，上帝在伊甸园里种植了天堂。 And he says, the Lord God planted paradise in Eden.
这就是《创世纪》希腊文版本所说的，伊甸是天堂的第一个提及。 And that's what the Greek version of Genesis says, that Eden is the first reference to paradise.
因此他说，天堂这个地方在美丽方面是介于地球和天堂之间的。 And so he says, the place paradise was made in respect to beauty, intermediate between earth and heaven.
所以天堂被理解为这个有福的地方，这个美丽的 地方，这个比地球优越但仍然不及天堂的地方。 So paradise was understood to be this place of blessedness, this place of beauty, this place that is superior to earth, but was still inferior to heaven.
现在，为了明确，我并不是说天堂总是必然意味着那样。 Now, to be clear, I'm not saying paradise always necessarily means that.
你可以用天堂来指代天堂，但天堂并不自动意味着那样。 You can use paradise to refer to heaven, but paradise doesn't automatically mean that.
所以义人的状态。 So the state of the righteous.
所以记住，耶稣死在十字架上，他去向那些在监狱中的灵魂传播这个解放的信息。 So remember, Jesus dies on the cross, and he goes and preaches this message of liberation to those spirits who are in prison.
嗯，他们不在地狱，因为这些是他带到天堂的人。 Well, they're not in hell, because these are the people he's bringing with him to heaven.
但耶稣打开了天堂的大门。 But Jesus opens the gates of heaven.
所以我们弄清楚这一点很重要。 And so it's important that we get that right.
所以我认为，准确地描述耶稣和善贼在耶稣受难日去的地方为天堂是正确的。 So it is accurate, I think, to describe where Jesus and the good thief go, even on Good Friday, as paradise.
只要你不认为他们指的是天堂，只要你明白他们指的是义人 死后的地方，有时基于路加福音被称为亚伯拉罕的怀抱。 As long as you don't think they mean heaven, as long as you understand they mean the place of the righteous dead, sometimes called the bosom of Abraham, based on the gospel of Luke.
那个地方，有时被称为祖先的边缘地带，这个等待的地方，就像 一个围墙花园，一个比地球优越但不等同于天堂的安慰之地。 That place, sometimes called the limbo of the fathers, this place of waiting, it's like a walled garden, a place of comfort that is superior to earth, but isn't equal to heaven.
所以这一切都是在说，无论你如何理解这段经文，你都不能用善贼来驳斥炼狱的存在。 So all of that's to say, however you understand the passage, you just can't use the good thief to debunk the existence of purgatory.
关于善贼的最后一点。 One last point on the good thief.
从天主教的角度来看，如果善贼立即去了天堂，那将是好的。 It would be fine, from a Catholic perspective, if the good thief immediately went to heaven.
因为通常的论点是，看，善贼，他只是相信，尽管他过着犯 罪和罪恶的生活，他相信，他说他相信，因此他去了天堂。 Because usually the argument is, look, the good thief, he just believes, and even though he lived this life of crime and sin, he believes, he says he believes, and therefore he goes to heaven.
他不应该去炼狱吗？ Shouldn't he have gone to purgatory?
我认为答案不是肯定的。 I don't think the answer to that is yes.
记住，正如圣奥古斯丁所说，你可以在这个地球上拥有你的炼狱。 Remember, as St. Augustine says, you can have your purgatory on this earth.
这是一个人，因他的罪在十字架上遭受极其痛苦的折磨之死，在 痛苦中大声呼求信仰，并且在耶稣受难日公开安慰和捍卫耶稣。 This is a man who is suffering an excruciating death of torture on the cross for his sins, crying out in faith amidst the suffering, and what's more, giving comfort and defending Jesus publicly on Good Friday.
他做的比我们大多数人所希望做的还要多。 He did more than most of us will ever hope to do.
在很短的时间内。 In a very short span of time.
所以如果你告诉我那是他的净化，那是他的痛苦，说，是的，这是有道理的。 So if you were to tell me that was his purgation, that was his suffering, say, yeah, that makes sense.
那很好。 That's fine.
这些都不能证明炼狱不存在。 None of that disproves purgatory.
天主教对炼狱的信仰并不是每一个圣人都去炼狱。 The Catholic belief in purgatory is not every single saint goes to purgatory.
所以如果你发现有人没有去炼狱，那并不能驳斥炼狱的存在。 So if you found someone who didn't go to purgatory, that would not debunk the existence of purgatory.
就像不是每个人都去过辛辛那提。 Just like not everyone's been to Cincinnati.
这并不意味着辛辛那提不存在。 That doesn't mean Cincinnati doesn't exist.
无意冒犯来自辛辛那提的人。 No offense to people from Cincinnati.
这只是我想到的第一个城市。 It's just the first city that came to mind.
我不知道辛辛那提的炼狱程度如何。 I don't know how purgatorial Cincinnati is.
所以这是第一个反对意见。 So that's the first objection.
善贼并不能证明，首先是因为他似乎没有在耶稣受难日与耶稣一起去天堂。 The good thief just doesn't prove, first because he doesn't seem to have gone to heaven with Jesus on Good Friday.
但第二，即使他去了，那也不能证明炼狱不存在。 But second, because even if he did, that would not disprove the existence of purgatory.
第二个反对意见，这句话归功于圣保罗，即离开身体就是与主同在。 The second objection, this line accredited to St. Paul, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
这里的答案是这是一个错误的引用。 And the answer here is this is a misquotation.
这是对《哥林多后书》第5章第8节的詹姆斯王版本的误引， 其中圣保罗说，我们有信心，我说，宁愿离开身体与主同在。 It's a misquotation of the King James Version of 2 Corinthians 5, verse 8, in which St. Paul says, we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
但请注意，他说离开身体与主同在是很好的。 But notice he's saying it'd be great to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
他没有说每个离开身体的人都与主同在。 He does not say everyone who is absent from the body is present with the Lord.
这里的问题部分是我们在使用詹姆斯王英语，很多使用这种语言的人都会被绊倒。 The problem here is partly that we're using King James English, and a lot of people using this get tripped up.
要使用RSVC，你可以使用任何数量的现代英语翻译。 To use the RSVC, you can use any number of modern English translations.
逻辑错误在哪里可能会更清楚。 It might be clearer where the logical error is.
那一句说我们很有勇气，我们宁愿离开身体与主同在。 That one says we're of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
但再次，如果你说，今晚我宁愿吃意大利食物而不是墨西哥食物。 But again, if you say, I would rather have Italian food than Mexican food tonight.
我不知道你为什么要这么说，但如果你这么说了，那并不意味 着每个不吃意大利食物的人都在吃墨西哥食物，反之亦然。 I don't know why you'd say that, but if you did, that does not mean that everyone who's not having Italian food is having Mexican food, or vice versa.
这只是意味着你更喜欢A而不是B。就这些。 It just means you'd prefer A to B. That's all.
这就是你所说的全部。 That's all you're saying.
你没有说不在A中的每个人都在B中，或者不在 B中的每个人都在A中。你根本没有这么说。 You're not saying everyone who's not in A is in B, or everyone not in B is in A. You're not saying that at all.
所以说，我宁愿在天堂而不是在地球上，谁不同意这一点，这并不能证明天 堂和地球是唯二的可能性，因为它们当然不是。有可能离开身体而在地狱。 So to say, I would rather be in heaven than on earth, which who wouldn't agree with that, doesn't prove that heaven and earth are the only two possibilities, because of course they aren't. It's possible to be absent from the body and in hell.
这是令人无法接受的。 It's outrageous.
使用《哥林多后书》第5章来说唯一的两种状态是在 身体里或在天堂里是完全错误的，显然是错误的。 It is totally, obviously wrong to use 2 Corinthians 5 to say the only two states are here in the body or in heaven.
这里的情况部分是人们在英语中对詹姆斯王版本感到困惑 ，我认为，部分是他们完全断章取义地引用了第8节。 What's going on here is partly that people are getting tripped over King James in English, I think, and partly they're taking verse 8 completely out of context.
如果你阅读哥林多后书第5章的上下文，它从圣保罗讲述我们居住的地上帐 篷（即我们的地上未得荣耀的身体）若被毁坏，我们有一个来自上帝的建筑 ，一座非人手所造、在天上永存的房屋，那就是我们得荣耀的身体开始。 If you read the context in 2 Corinthians, excuse me, chapter 5, it starts with St. Paul talking about how if the earthly tent we live in, meaning our earthly, unglorified body is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, that is our glorified body.
我们在这里确实叹息，渴望穿上我们的天上居所，以便穿上后，我们不至于赤身露体。 Here indeed we groan and long to put on our heavenly dwelling so that by putting it on, we may not be found naked.
因此，当我们处于未得荣耀的身体中，带着所有的弱点 时，我们期待着那一天，我们将拥有得荣耀的身体。 So as we're in our unglorified body with all its weaknesses, we look forward to that day where we'll have our glorified body.
这正是哥林多后书第5章所讨论的。 That's specifically what 2 Corinthians 5 is talking about.
然后他说，我们知道当我们在身体中时，我们与主相离，对吗？ And then he says, we know while we're at home in the body, we're away from the Lord, right?
就像如果你仍然在地球上的未得荣耀的身体中，你必然不在天堂。 Like if you are still in your unglorified body here on earth, you are necessarily not in heaven.
如果你在吃意大利食物，你就不会吃墨西哥食物，不管怎样，对吗？ If you're having Italian food, you're not having Mexican food, whatever, right?
然后他说，我们宁愿离开身体，与主同在。 He then says we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
所以当他这么说时，这是否意味着身体和天堂是唯二的可能性？ So when he says that, does that mean the body and heaven are the only two possibilities?
当然不是。因为再次，你有地狱，你有我们在得到荣耀身体之前在天堂的存在。 Of course it doesn't. Because again, you've got hell and you have the existence we have in heaven before we get our glorified body.
因为在接下来的两节中，圣保罗明确指出我们何时将得到荣耀身体。 Because in the very next two verses, St. Paul makes clear when we're going to get the glorified body.
他说，我们都必须出现在基督的审判台前，以便每 个人根据他在身体中所做的事情得到善报或恶报。 He says, we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body.
现在请注意，他并没有说所有不在身体中的人都自动去天堂，自动得到好东西。 Now notice he's not saying everyone not in the body automatically goes to heaven, automatically gets good things.
当他谈到在审判时接受恶行时，他的意思是我们出现在基督的审判台前的两件事之一。 When he talks about receiving evil at this time of judgment, he means one of two things when we appear before the judgment seat of Christ.
要么，就像哥林多前书第3章一样，他谈论的是得 救的人在最终审判前接受某种损失，这种净化。 Either, like 1 Corinthians 3, he's talking about the saved receiving some kind of loss, this purgation before their final judgment.
或者，或者，他的意思是那些失去一切并下地狱的人。 Or, or and or, he means those who lose everything and go to hell.
但无论他指的是哪一种，他显然没有说所有不在他们尘世 身体中的人都在他们的天堂身体中完全体验天堂的荣耀。 But whichever of those he means, he clearly is not saying everyone who is not in their earthly body is fully experiencing heavenly glory in their heavenly body.
不，这显然不是他的意思。 No, it's clearly not what he's saying.
所以，那段话并不意味着人们说的意思，当他们引用它时，他们通常是误引。 So, that passage just doesn't mean what people say it means, and they're usually misquoting it when they quote it.
同样，在腓立比书第1章第21至23节，圣保罗 说，对我而言，活着就是基督，死了就是得益。 Likewise, with Philippians chapter 1, verse 21 to 23, St. Paul says, for to me to live is Christ and to die is gain.
如果是在肉身中活着，那对我意味着富有成效的劳动。 If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me.
然而，我将选择哪个，我无法说。 Yet, which I shall choose, I cannot tell.
我在这两者之间感到为难。 I'm hard-pressed between the two.
我的愿望是离开并与基督同在，因为那样更好。 My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
但请注意，他仍然没有说唯二的可能性是尘世生活或天堂荣耀，因 为显然还有第三类地狱，这是天主教徒和新教徒通常都相信的。 But notice he still doesn't say the only two possibilities are earthly life or heavenly glory, because there's obviously the third category of hell, which both Catholics and Protestants typically believe in.
所以，保罗并不打算否认地狱的存在。 So, Paul's not intending to deny hell.
他说他宁愿在天堂而不是在地球上。 He's saying he would rather be in heaven than on earth.
这是一种相当不具争议的主张，并没有证明这是灵魂所能处的唯二可能的地方。 That is a pretty uncontroversial kind of claim, and doesn't prove those are the only two possible places for a soul to be.
这是第二个反对意见。 That's the second objection.
第三个问题，基督不是已经做了一切吗？ The third one, didn't Christ do it all?
在这里，我想转向迈克·根德隆在被问及为什么他不相信炼狱时所提出的论点。 And here, I want to turn to the argument made by Mike Gendron when he's asked why he doesn't believe in purgatory.
提前为奇怪的音乐道歉。 And apologies in advance for the weird music.
为什么炼狱是一个完全错误的观念？ Why is purgatory a completely false idea?
因为它否认了我们的主耶稣基督的充分性。 Because it denies the sufficiency of our Lord Jesus Christ.
它是由罗马天主教创造的，作为一个中间地带，那里的人在上帝的恩典中死去 ，但犯了轻罪，他们将去那里，让他们的罪得到净化，以便为天堂做好准备。 It is created by the Roman Catholic religion as an intermediate place where people who die in God's grace, but who have committed venial sins, will go there and have their sins purged away so that they can be prepared for heaven.
但这与圣经相悖，因为在约翰一书1章7节中，它说耶稣基督的血净化我们脱离一切罪恶。 But it goes against the Bible because in 1 John 1, 7, it says the blood of Jesus Christ purifies us from all sin.
不是大多数罪，不是许多罪，不是一些罪。 Not most sins, not many sins, not some sins.
耶稣的血净化我们脱离一切罪恶。 The blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin.
然后我们还在希伯来书1章3节中看到，当耶稣 为我们的罪得到净化时，他坐在天上父的右边。 And then we also see in Hebrews 1, 3, when Jesus obtained purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Father in heaven.
当大祭司坐下时，工作就完成了。 When the high priest sits down, the work is done.
好的，这就是论点。 Okay, so that's the argument.
首先要注意的是，这个论点没有多大意义。 And the first thing to notice is that the argument doesn't make a lot of sense.
我的意思是，因为我之前提到的关于NT Wright的事情。 And I mean that because of the thing I said earlier with the NT Wright thing.
作为基督徒，你的生活中有一个净化过程。 There's a purification that goes on in your life as a Christian.
现在，无论你如何理解这个过程，无论是你得救的那一刻，还 是持续的成圣工作，这个炼狱过程，这个净化过程在公元33 年或耶稣在十字架上死去的任何年份之后都会持续很长时间。 Now, however you understand that process, whether it's just the moment you get saved, or whether it's the ongoing work of sanctification, this purgatorial process, this process of purification continues long after 33 AD or whatever year Jesus dies on the cross.
所以说，哦，工作已经完成了，已经结束了，因此没有必要净化我的罪，这是极其错误的。 So to say, oh, the work is completed, it's finished, and therefore there's no need to purify me of my sin, that's outrageously wrong.
事实上，我甚至会说这是撒旦的。 In fact, I would even argue it's satanic.
我会根据圣经来争论这一点，因为试图在没有十字 架的情况下获得荣耀的想法是撒旦欺骗的核心。 And I'd argue that on the basis of Scripture because this idea of trying to get the glory without the cross is at the heart of the satanic deception.
我们通过几种方式知道这一点。 We know this in several ways.
我们知道它的一种方式是马太福音第16章。所以 ，你知道，记得圣彼得认为耶稣是基督，对吗？ One way we know it is Matthew chapter 16. So, you know, remember St. Peter gets Jesus as the Christ, right?
他受到赞扬，被称为磐石，有所有这些东西，真的很棒。 And he gets lauded, he gets called the rock, there's all this stuff, it's really great.
然后在第21节，从那时起，耶稣开始向他的门徒表明，他必须去耶路 撒冷，受到长老、祭司长和文士的许多苦难，并被杀，第三天复活。 And then in verse 21, from that time, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and on the third day be raised.
彼得，你知道，沉浸在他的荣耀中，把他拉到一边，开始 责备他说，上帝禁止，主啊，这绝不会发生在你身上。 And Peter, you know, riding high off of his glory, took him aside and began to rebuke him saying, God forbid, Lord, this shall never happen to you.
耶稣转过身对彼得说，撒旦，退在我后面。 Jesus turns and says to Peter, get behind me, Satan.
你是我的绊脚石，因为你不站在上帝这边，而是站在人这边。 You are a hindrance to me for you are not on the side of God, but of men.
作为人，我们想要没有十字架的荣耀。 As men, we want the glory without the cross.
圣彼得希望耶稣得到那个，并认为他在试图告诉 他，嘿，你不需要担心那个，是在帮他一个忙。 St. Peter wants that for Jesus and thinks he's doing him a favor by trying to tell him, hey, you don't need to worry about that.
你可以在没有十字架的情况下得到荣耀。 You can get the glory without the cross.
这是我们在门徒的生活中一次又一次看到的一个持续存在的问题。 This is an ongoing problem that we see over and over again in the life of disciples.
彼得、雅各、约翰上山后，他们看见耶稣的变形，下山时，耶稣 吩咐他们，在人子从死里复活前，不要将所看见的告诉任何人。 After Peter, James and John go up and they see the transfiguration of Jesus, they're coming down, Jesus charges them to tell no one what they'd seen until the Son of Man should have risen from the dead.
他们三个开始悄悄地试图弄清楚这个从死里复活的事情是什么意思。 And the three of them start quietly trying to figure out what this rising from the dead thing meant.
他们刚刚看到耶稣的荣耀。 They just saw Jesus in glory.
然后他立刻开始谈论死亡和从死里复活。 And then he immediately starts talking about dying and rising from the dead.
但他们不想问他这件事。 But they don't want to ask him about it.
他们不想听到那个坏消息。 They don't want to hear that bad news.
所以他们反而问他，为什么文士说以利亚必须先来呢？ So instead they ask him, well, why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?
但耶稣希望他谈论这个问题。 But Jesus wants him to talk about it.
所以他说，是的，以利亚确实先来恢复万物。 So he says, yeah, Elijah does come to first restore all things.
然后他问他，人子应该受许多苦难并被轻视，这是怎么写的呢？ And then he asks him, and how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?
就像他不会让他们没有十字架就得到荣耀。 Like he won't let them take the glory without the cross.
不会让他们这么做。 Won't let them do it.
甚至在复活节的星期天，他也在去以马忤斯的路上与两个门徒同行。 And even on Easter Sundays, he's walking with two disciples on the road to Emmaus.
他问，基督受这些苦难并进入他的荣耀，难道不是必要的吗？ He asked, was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?
所以没有耶稣受难日就没有复活节。 So Jesus doesn't get Easter without Good Friday.
他不会让我们逃避这个事实，因为我们想跳过那个。 And he won't let us run away from that fact because we want to skip past that.
我们想要一个空荡荡的十字架来宣告空虚的坟墓，而不是面对十字架的恐怖。 We want to have a bare cross to proclaim the empty tomb and not be faced with the horrors of a crucifix.
我们想要没有十字架的荣耀。 We want to have the glory without the cross.
但那不是我们所被呼召的。 But that's not what we're called to.
这不仅仅是耶稣的十字架。 And it's not just Jesus's cross.
这也是我们的十字架。 It's also our cross.
耶稣不是为了成为我们的替代品而死在十字架上，这样我们就不必有十字架。 Jesus did not die on the cross to be our substitute so we didn't have to have a cross.
耶稣死在十字架上，使我们可以背起我们的十字架跟随他。 Jesus dies on the cross so we can take up our cross and follow him.
这从圣经中可以清楚地看出。 And this is abundantly clear from scripture.
罗马书第8章，我们从那里开始。 Romans 8, we'll start there.
圣保罗说，我们没有领受奴役的心使我们再度惧怕，而是领受了儿子的心。 St. Paul is saying that we didn't receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but we received the spirit of sonship.
拥有儿子的心意味着什么？ What does it mean to have the spirit of sonship?
嗯，他在接下来的经文中告诉我们，这意味着我们是上帝的孩子。 Well, he tells us in the next verses that it means we are children of God.
如果是孩子，那么就是后嗣。 And if children, then heirs.
是上帝的后嗣，与基督同为后嗣。 Heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.
我想在这里停止引用经文，但保罗不允许。 And I want to stop the passage there, but Paul won't let me.
他说，只要我们与他一同受苦，就可以与他一同得荣耀。 He says, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
也就是说，耶稣受难日和复活节不仅仅是为了耶稣。 That is, Good Friday and Easter Sunday are not just meant for Jesus.
耶稣受难日和复活节也是为了你。 Good Friday and Easter Sunday are also meant for you.
你需要经历苦难。 You need to go through suffering.
你需要被净化，并达到天堂般的复活节荣耀。 You need to be purified and make it to heavenly Easter glory.
保罗在提摩太后书第2章对圣提摩太说，作为基督耶稣的好兵，承担你的苦难份额。 To St. Timothy, St. Paul says in 2 Timothy chapter 2, take your share of suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
直截了当地说。 Just says it outright.
任何告诉你，嘿，你不需要所有这些苦难和净化的人，都在向你兜售恶魔的谎言。 Anyone telling you, hey, you don't need all this suffering and purification is selling you a demonic lie.
这是撒旦的谎言。 This is the lie of Satan.
那个上帝禁止，主啊，不是来自上帝。 That God forbid, Lord, is not coming from God.
保罗用几个简单的例子支持我们。 And St. Paul backs us up with several easy examples.
在役的士兵不会卷入平民追求，因为他的目标是满足征召他的人。 No soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuit since his aim is to satisfy the one who enlisted him.
你有更高的呼召。 You got a higher calling.
除非运动员按照规则竞赛，否则他不会被加冕。 An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.
所以你必须以某种方式生活。 So you got to live in a certain way.
辛勤的农夫应该得到庄稼的第一份。 It is the hardworking farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops.
所以保罗在阐述这一点，这一点根本不像迈克·金德所宣扬的基督教。 So St. Paul is making this point that doesn't sound at all like the Christianity preached by Mike Ginder.
但我要说的不仅仅是保罗。 But I'd say it's not just Paul here.
也有耶稣。 It's also Jesus.
耶稣在马太福音16章中，在我已经提到的经文中，第24节 说，若有人要跟从我，就当舍己，背起他的十字架来跟从我。 Jesus in Matthew 16, in the passage I already alluded to, verse 24 says, if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
对吧？ Right?
就像这是他对彼得想要没有十字架的荣耀的回应。 Like this is how he responds to Peter wanting to have the glory without the cross.
不仅仅是彼得希望耶稣没有十字架就有荣耀。 That it's not just that Peter wants Jesus to have the glory without the cross.
彼得希望彼得没有十字架就有荣耀。 Peter wants Peter to have the glory without the cross.
耶稣说，我不仅需要十字架来拯救世界，我们也需要十字架来成为耶稣的门徒。 And Jesus says, not only do I need the cross for the salvation of the world, we need the cross as well to be disciples of Jesus.
现在，迈克·金德可以自由地相信，新教徒可以自由 地相信，这在某种程度上是对基督完成工作的反感。 Now, Mike Ginder is free to believe, and Protestants are free to believe, this is somehow repugnant to the completed work of Christ.
但这是圣经。 But this is scripture.
歌罗西书第1章，保罗在第24节说，我为你们的缘故在受苦中欢乐。 Colossians 1, St. Paul says in verse 24, I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake.
我在我的肉身上，为了他的身体，就是教会，补满基督患难的缺欠。 And in my flesh, I complete what is lacking in Christ's affliction for the sake of his body that is the church.
所缺少的不是耶稣未能做到的事情。 What is lacking isn't something Jesus failed to do.
所缺少的是这个，基督的身体。 What is lacking is this, the body of Christ.
以弗所书1章，整个基督是教会身体的基督的头。 Ephesians 1, the whole Christ is Christ's head with the church's body.
耶稣经历了所有那些苦难。 Jesus has gone through all of that suffering.
我们被召唤进入其中，我们需要尽我们的责任。 We have been called into it, and we need to do our part.
这不是他作为大祭司所做的任何错误。 This is not anything that he did wrong as a high priest.
但看，就像在大祭司的祭祀中，祭司扮演了一定的 角色，但祭司所献祭的人也扮演了一定的角色。 But look, like with the high priestly sacrifice, the priest had a certain role he played, but the people for whom the priest was offering had a certain role they played as well.
例如，在一些食物供品中，祭司会献祭或奉献，然后他和人们可能会吃它。 So for instance, in some of the food offerings, the priest would sacrifice or offer it up, and then he and the people might eat of it.
或者人们的牺牲可能是带来他们最好的东西，他们的初 熟果子，他们的初瘦，他们未被玷污、无瑕疵的羔羊。 Or the people's sacrifice might be to bring their best stuff, their first fruits, their first leans, their unspotted, unblemished lamb.
所以他们在奉献一些东西，然后祭司会奉献。 And so they're offering something which then the priest offers.
所以祭司有一定的角色，但外行人也有。 So the priest has a certain role, but so does the layman.
所以说基督是我们的大祭司并不意味着我们没有什么可以牺牲的。 And so saying Christ is our high priest does not mean we have nothing to sacrifice.
如果你理解祭祀系统的工作方式，这根本不是那个意思。 It doesn't mean that at all, if you understand the way a sacrificial system kind of works.
所以这一切都是在说，我们没有被免除受苦的承诺。 And so all of that's to say, we're not promised immunity from suffering.
相反，我们被承诺，如果我们是儿子，我们将受到管教。 We're promised instead that if we are sons, we'll be disciplined.
所以这一切都是在说，现在你可以从牺牲、苦难等不同角度 出发，但你不能只说基督做了一切，所以我什么都不用做。 So all of that's to say, now there's different angles you can go with sacrifice, suffering, and the like, but you can't just say Christ did it all, so I've got nothing to do.
那根本不是那样。 That's not it at all.
所以如果炼狱对你的神学体系是令人反感的，那可能是因为你的 神学体系没有认真对待我们通往天堂荣耀之路上十字架的需要。 And so if purgatory is repugnant to your theological system, it might be because your theological system hasn't taken seriously the need for the cross on our way to heavenly glory.
罗马书8章说，我们只有与他们一同受苦，才能分享基督的荣耀。 That Romans 8 says, we'll only share in the glory of Christ provided we suffer with them.
最后，哥林多后书1章5节说，我们在基督的苦 难中大有分，所以我们也在基督里大得安慰。 Finally, 2 Corinthians 1 verse 5 says, as we share abundantly in Christ's suffering, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.
有这样一种联系。 There's this connection.
你分享基督的安慰。 You share in the comfort of Christ.
你在基督的荣耀中分享的更多。 You share even more than that in the glory of Christ.
如果你也分享耶稣受难日，你就分享那复活节的荣耀。 You share in that Easter glory, if you share in the Good Friday as well.
无法逃避。 There's no escaping it.
所以我们需要被净化的这个概念，就在那里。 And so this notion of our need to be purified, it's all right there.
然后我对此的最后一点回应是，错误在于想象出于某 种原因，当我在地球上被净化时，耶稣在做这件事。 And then the last thing I'd say in response to this is, the mistake is imagining that for some reason, when I'm purified here on earth, Jesus is doing it.
但如果我在炼狱中被净化，那是我在做。 But if I'm purified in purgatory, I'm doing it.
那仍然是耶稣在做。 That's still Jesus doing it.
我自愿与之合作。 I freely cooperate with it.
但他，凭借他的恩典和他的主权力量，是净化我的那一位。 But he, by his grace and by his sovereign power, is the one purifying me.
无论是在地球上还是在炼狱中，我都是那种净化的接受者。 I'm the recipient of that purification, whether here on earth or in purgatory.
所以想象我们在炼狱中以某种方式赚取通往天堂的路是错误的。 So it's a mistake to imagine that in purgatory, we were somehow earning our way to heaven.
不，无论你的净化是在这里还是在将来，耶稣都是净化者。 No, whether your purgation is here or hereafter, Jesus is the purifier.
你是被净化的那一个。 You are the one being the purified.
这是较弱的论点之一。 That's one of the weaker arguments.
我将给你留下可能是最有力的论点，那就是沉默的论点。 I will leave you with maybe the strongest argument, which is the argument from silence.
圣经本可以对此更清楚。 Scripture could be clearer on it.
嘿，我同意。 Hey, I agree.
圣经在许多事情上本可以更清楚。 Scripture could be clearer on a lot of things.
如果你阅读旧约并问，地狱是什么样子的？ If you read the Old Testament and say, what does hell look like?
天堂甚至是什么？ What is paradise even?
你知道，你有所有这些关于地狱、阴间、天堂的参考。 You know, you've got all these references to Gehenna, to Sheol, to paradise.
这一切是什么样子的？ What does all this look like?
新约经常不如我希望的那样清楚。 The New Testament is often less clear than I'd like it.
旧约更是如此。 The Old Testament, even more so.
所以，是的，沉默的论点只是一个简单事实的反映。 And so, yeah, the argument from silence is just a reflection of a simple fact.
很多时候我们希望圣经像神学教科书一样阅读，它只是 命题地说，相信这个，相信那个，相信其他的东西。 Many times we expect the Bible to read like a theology textbook, that it's just going to say propositionally, believe this, believe that, believe the other thing.
它通常不是那样读的。 And it usually doesn't read like that.
它有故事。 It has stories.
它有叙述。 It has narratives.
它有家谱。 It has genealogies.
它有所有这些东西，这些东西经常需要很多反思。 It has all these things that are making points that often take a lot of reflection.
或者你会得到这些小小的一瞥，就像在一个关于来世状态的寓言中一样。 Or you'll get these little passing glimpses, like in a parable to something about the state of the afterlife.
所以，是的，它可以更清楚吗？ So, yes, could it be clearer?
绝对可以。 Absolutely.
我甚至不反对这一点。 I don't even disagree with this one.
但这并不意味着它不存在。 But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
说关于灵性生活或来世的任何事情如果没有在圣经 中明确说明就不是真实的，这是错误的，对吗？ It would be a mistake to say anything about the spiritual life or about the afterlife that isn't really clearly spelled out in Scripture isn't real, right?
因为即使是像天堂的荣耀这样的事物，在基督徒中也有很多混淆。 Because even something like what heavenly glory looks like, there's a lot of confusion among that amongst Christians.
地狱是什么样子，这一切都是在说，当你实际回去深 入研究并问，圣经有多少次直接解释这些事情时？ What hell looks like, all of that's to say, when you actually go back and drill down and say, how often does Scripture directly explain this stuff?
这比你想象的要少得多。 It's a lot less common than you might imagine.
但这不是反对圣经的论点。 But that's not an argument against Scripture.
这只是一个论点，我们期望圣经是什么与圣经实际是什么非常不同。 It just is an argument that what we expect the Bible to be is very different from what the Bible actually is.
所以希望你看到这四个论点都不是反对炼狱的有力论点。 So hopefully you see none of those four arguments are strong arguments against purgatory.
如果我错过了什么，请在评论中指出，我相信你们评论者，随 时指出我没有提到的一些额外论点或我可能错过的任何东西。 If I've missed anything, please, in the comments, I believe in you commenters, feel free to point out some additional arguments I haven't made or anything I might have missed.
实际上还有很多可以支持炼狱的话，但我想给出一 个简单的案例，因为我认为这真的归结为第一个。 There's actually much more that could be said in favor of purgatory, but I wanted to give kind of a simple case because I think it really comes down to that very first one.
现在，你还没有达到在上帝面前所需的纯洁程度。 Right now, you are not as pure as you need to be to be in the presence of God.
如果你认为你是，你真的没有达到在上帝面前所需的纯洁程度。 And if you think you are, you really are not as pure as you need to be to be in the presence of God.
因此，你需要现在就被净化，或者如果你还没有完成，你需要在进入天堂之前被彻底净化。 And because of that, you need to be purified either now or if you're not done yet, you need to be purified before you go into heaven all the way.
我是乔·赫施迈尔，为《无耻杂烩》而作。 For Shameless Potpourri, I'm Joe Heshmire.
上帝保佑你。 God bless you.
如果你今天庆祝诸灵节，祝你快乐。 A happy All Souls Day if you're celebrating that today.
愿忠实的灵魂通过上帝的怜悯离开。 And may the souls of the faithful depart through the mercy of God.
安息吧。 Rest in peace.
下周，我们将继续反对无神论的最后两个论点。 Next week, we'll resume the last two arguments against atheism.
感谢您收听《无耻杂烩》，这是天主教答案播客网络的一档节目。 Thank you for listening to Shameless Potpourri, a production of the Catholic Answers Podcast Network.
访问catholicanswerspodcast.com，发现更多精彩节目。 Find more great shows by visiting catholicanswerspodcast.com
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