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Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.36,0:00:25.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你们可能在想，他这次演讲的标题到底是什么意思呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You're probably wondering, what the heck does he mean by the title of this talk?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:25.80,0:00:32.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}从托皮卡到罗马，五旬节运动如何使数百万人更接近天主教信仰。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}From Topeka to Rome, how the Pentecostal movement has brought millions closer to the Catholic faith.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.26,0:00:38.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}让我先问一下，这里有多少人可能有五旬节派或灵恩派背景？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Let me ask first, how many in here may have a Pentecostal or Charismatic background?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.58,0:00:39.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}至少有几位吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}At least a few of you?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.42,0:00:41.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}比我想象的要多。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}More than I would have thought.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.92,0:00:45.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有多少人有五旬节派或灵恩派的好朋友？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}How many of you have good friends who are Pentecostal or Charismatic?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:48.56,0:00:53.93,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有多少人，可能你们对五旬节信仰的主要印象是电视布道者？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}How many of you, probably your primary image of the Pentecostal faith is television preachers?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.43,0:01:04.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这对我们很多人来说都是如此，所以我相信你们在想，怎么可能比这更远离天主教会呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's the case for a lot of us, so I'm sure you're thinking, how could you get any further away from the Catholic Church than that?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.88,0:01:12.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我希望到今天下午我讲完时，我能说服你们，至少能让你们思考我所说的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I hope by the time I've finished talking this afternoon I'll convince you, at least to chew on what I've had to say.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.05,0:01:29.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，这次会议的主题是信仰之战，1800-1900年。我所谈论的运动实际上，像\N帕特的时期一样，开始于1900年之后。1901年是历史学家认为运动开始的时间。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The theme, of course, for this conference is Battle for the Faith, 1800-1900. The movement I'm talking about actually, like with Pat's period, kind of starts right after 1900. 1901 is when the movement, historians would say that's when the movement began.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.44,0:01:36.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但有趣的是，我并不想多谈论战争，而你们已经听到了很多关于战争的内容。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But it's interesting, I don't really want to talk about the battle so much, and you're getting plenty of battle.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:36.30,0:01:37.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我的意思是，你们刚刚从帕特那里听到了什么？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I mean, what have you just heard from Pat?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:37.94,0:01:39.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那是很多关于战争的内容。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's plenty of battle.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.94,0:01:43.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我想知道你们中有多少人可能看过一部不久前上映的电影。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I wonder how many of you might have seen a film that came out not too long ago.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:43.57,0:01:44.19,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是一部法语电影。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's in French.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.19,0:01:46.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你们可能是看了英文字幕版。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You probably would have seen it in English subtitles.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:46.75,0:01:53.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我不会说法语，但电影名好像是《快乐圣诞》，一部非常美好的电影。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I can't speak French, but it's something like Joyeux Noël, a lovely, lovely film.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.56,0:02:11.83,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果你还没看过，你应该去看看。我不会详细讲述，但它是基于\N第一次世界大战的真实故事，在圣诞节前夕，战争中期，他们进\N行壕沟战，德国人和他们的盟友在另一边，他们都在壕沟里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You ought to see it if you haven't. And I won't go into details, but it's based on a true story from World War I, where there was on a Christmas Eve in the middle of World War I, when they had the trench warfare, and the Germans and their allies on the other side, they were all in the trenches.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:11.83,0:02:25.23,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}为了庆祝圣诞节，违反所有规定，他们宣布了一个小停战，他们走\N出壕沟，花了一些时间在一起，互相学习，然后再回到战斗中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And for Christmas, against all regulations, they called a little truce, and they came out of their trenches, and they spent some time together and learned from each other before they went back to the battle again.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.23,0:02:27.35,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}非常感人，非常感人的事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Very touching, very touching thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:27.77,0:03:19.79,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在某种程度上，这几乎像是我想谈论的一个比喻，也许在谈论完所有的战争之后，\N谈论一个场合，一个情境，在新教徒与天主教会之间，新教徒彼此之间，甚至在其\N自身的分裂中，有一个运动，我在成为天主教徒之前与之密切相关，这在某些方面\N不像是一场战争，而是一种汇聚，使那些离天主教信仰很远的人通过这种经历开始\N对信仰、对神和世界的现实有了一些理解，这与天主教会的教导有些相似。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in some ways, that's almost like a parable of what I want to talk about, and maybe after talking about all the battles, it might be nice to talk about an occasion, a situation in which in the midst of all the battles between Protestants and the Catholic Church, Protestants and one another, and even with its own share of divisions, that there has been one movement with which I was intimately related, connected before I became Catholic, that has in certain ways been like, rather than a battle, something of a convergence, in which people who were very far away from Catholic faith came by this experience to begin to have an understanding of the faith and a view of reality of God and of the world, that came to be a little bit more like what the Catholic Church teaches.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.79,0:03:26.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我并不是说它使数百万人进入天主教会，尽管它确\N实在我进入天主教会的过程中起到了重要作用。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm not saying it's brought millions into the Catholic Church, though it was certainly instrumental in my coming into the Catholic Church.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.09,0:03:29.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但让我先从我自己说起。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But let me just start with a little bit about myself.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.65,0:03:57.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我是在长老会中长大的，后来在青少年时期成为无神论者，18岁时有了\N一次皈依的经历，这在帕特·马德里编辑的《真理的惊喜》第一卷的第一\N章中有所讲述，过了一段时间，再次进入基督教社区，以那种方式回归，\N我有了一次你可以称之为五旬节的经历，五旬节派称之为圣灵的洗礼。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I was raised Presbyterian, then I was an atheist as a teenager, at the age of 18 had a conversion experience, which is told in the first chapter of the first volume of Surprised by Truth, Pat Madrid's book that he edited, and after a while, after coming into the Christian community again, reverting in that way, I had what you might call a Pentecostal experience, what Pentecostals call the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:58.07,0:04:16.43,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那次经历最终将我带入了五旬节派的圈子，如神召会和组织较不严密的灵恩派圈子——我们\N稍后会谈到五旬节派和灵恩派的区别——最终我被任命为一个非宗派灵恩派会众的副牧师。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That experience eventually then took me into Pentecostal circles, such as the Assemblies of God and less well-organized Charismatic circles—we'll talk about the difference between Pentecostal and Charismatic in a minute—and eventually I was ordained as an associate pastor in a non-denominational Charismatic congregation.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:17.35,0:04:20.41,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以这就是我在其中的背景。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that's kind of where I'm coming from in it.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.50,0:04:24.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们从哪里开始呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Where do we start?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.80,0:04:37.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我想我以前在这里说过，有一次在一个学术会议上，有个发言的人\N有太多话要说，他只是揉着额头说，从哪里开始，从哪里开始？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I think I've said it here before, there was a conference one time, an academic conference, and the man who had to speak had so much to say, he was just rubbing his forehead and saying, where to begin, where to begin?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.01,0:04:43.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}然后从房间后面传来一个声音，尽量接近结尾。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And a voice called out from the back of the room, as close to the end as possible.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.38,0:04:50.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我会试试的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'll try.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:53.83,0:05:17.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你们中有多少人听说过路易·博耶神父，一位法国神父和学者，很多人举手\N，1913年至2004年？他是一位路德宗牧师，后来皈依天主教，最终\N成为神父，是20世纪最受尊敬的天主教神学家和历史学家之一，与霍姆斯\N洛斯、冯·巴尔塔萨、教宗本笃十六世、J.R.R.托尔金等人是朋友。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}How many of you have ever heard of Fr. Louis Boyer, a French priest and scholar, lots of hands there, 1913 to 2004? He was a Lutheran pastor who became a Catholic convert and finally a priest, one of the most highly respected Catholic theologians and historians of the 20th century, friends of people like Homslos, von Balthasar, Pope Benedict XVI, J.R.R. Tolkien.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.56,0:05:22.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他著有多本书，其中我最喜欢的是《新教的精神与形式》。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He's the author of many books, including my favorite, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.63,0:05:32.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在这本书中，他有一个非常有趣的论点，早就让我印象\N深刻，因为我越想越觉得我的生活就是它的一个例证。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now within this particular book, he has a very interesting thesis that struck me a long time ago, because the more I thought about it, the more I realized that my life was an illustration of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:32.75,0:06:07.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他说，他对自己的新教背景非常感激，我也是，他说在新教中，有一些来自福音的真\N正的属灵原则，它们使运动保持活力，使其不至于完全失去信仰，但这些原则最终与\N新教神学的某些错误方面，尤其是新教教会结构、教会结构的某些错误方面相矛盾。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He said that, he was very grateful for his Protestant upbringing, as I am, and he said that within Protestantism, there are certain true spiritual principles that come from the Gospel, and they're what keep the movement alive, keep it from losing faith altogether, but that these principles ultimately are at odds with certain false aspects or erroneous aspects of Protestant theology, and especially of Protestant church structure, ecclesial structure.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:07.80,0:06:22.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他说，并且他通过历史追溯，贯穿整个新教历史，这些属灵原则，因为它们是活\N的东西，它们是真理，是现实，它们一次又一次地突破了其制度和神学的限制。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What he said was that, and he traced this through history, throughout Protestant history, however, these spiritual principles, because they are living things, and they're truth, they're reality, that they again and again break out of their institutional and theological confines.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:22.36,0:06:29.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}可以说，它们走出了围栏，而这些运动，新教徒通常称之为复兴。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They get out of the corrals, so to speak, and these movements, Protestants will usually call them revivals.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.16,0:06:30.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你们可能听说过这个。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You've probably heard of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.68,0:06:33.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}事实上，这周，我相信，周末，我们听到了一些。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In fact, this week, I'm sure, the weekend, we've heard some.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.89,0:06:53.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当他们这样做时，他们最终会在某种程度上刷新新教社区，更新它\N，因为，这是他论点中有趣的一点，他们所做的是帮助新教徒重新\N发现和重新获得他们以前遗弃的天主教传统中的某些重要元素。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When they do that, they end up kind of refreshing the Protestant community, renewing it, because, and this was the interesting point of his thesis, what they're doing is they are helping Protestants to rediscover and reclaim certain important elements of the Catholic tradition that they had formerly left behind.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.14,0:06:59.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因为它们是真实的，是现实的，它们最终为拥抱它们的人带来了新的生命。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And because they're true and they're real, they end up bringing new life to the people who embrace them.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:59.89,0:07:13.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他给我们提供了一个经典的例子，约翰·卫斯理，他当然是循道宗运动的创始人，最\N终形成了循道宗教派和一系列被称为卫斯理宗的教派，18世纪的英国圣公会牧师。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He gives us a classic example within this, John Wesley, who was, of course, the founder of the Methodist movement that eventually resulted in the Methodist denomination and a whole series of denominations known as Wesleyan denominations, 18th century Anglican pastor.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:14.54,0:07:23.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在许多方面，他成为了新教复兴运动的长期、广泛形式的父亲和祖父。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And he became, in many ways, the father and grandfather of a long, extended season of Protestant revival movements with a multitude of forms.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:23.56,0:07:27.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他坚持认为卫斯理是，博耶坚持认为卫斯理是这种过程的完美例子。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And he insisted that Wesley was, Maboya insisted that Wesley was the perfect example of this kind of process.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:30.29,0:07:40.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在美国宗教历史学家中众所周知，五旬节运动诞生于美国，主\N要是在卫斯理宗背景下成长起来的，包括循道宗和其他背景。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's well known among historians of American religion that the Pentecostal movement, which was born in America, grew largely out of a Wesleyan context, Methodist and otherwise.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.42,0:07:43.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以这是我们在谈论时需要记住的重要一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that's an important point for us to keep in mind as we talk about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:47.93,0:07:48.73,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，我们该如何进行呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, how do we go about this?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.73,0:07:50.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这真是件有趣的事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's such an interesting thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.01,0:07:53.23,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在我们谈话时，我可能会变得像五旬节派一样，因为我在思考这些事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I may end up getting Pentecostal on you while we're talking, as I think about these things.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.23,0:08:03.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果我突然唱起歌来，或者像本尼·辛那样走上舞台，让摄影师难以跟上我，请多包涵。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If I break out in singing or if I pull a Benny Hinn and pull this out and walk across the stage and give the cameraman a hard time trying to track with me, just bear with me.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.68,0:08:35.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但在宗教改革中发生的一件错误事情是，主要的改革者几乎得出结论，\N反对天主教会，认为神迹的时代已经结束，他们接受在圣经时代，直到\N使徒时代，神曾行过奇迹和奇事，并且有默示的预言和其他事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But one of the things that happened in the Protestant Reformation that was a mistake was that the major reformers pretty much came to the conclusion against the Catholic Church that the season of God's miracles was over, that they accepted that in biblical times, up through the time of the apostles, that God had worked miraculous deeds and wonders, and that you had things like inspired prophecy and other things.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.96,0:08:39.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但他们几乎得出结论，这些在使徒时代就已经结束了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But they pretty much came to the conclusion that that had ended with the apostles.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:39.40,0:08:48.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}实际上，有些早期的天主教神学家也有同样的想法，尤其是\N圣奥古斯丁，但他改变了主意，因为他遇到了一些奇迹。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There were actually some early Catholic theologians who thought the same, especially St. Augustine, but he changed his mind because he encountered some miracles.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.81,0:09:04.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们也倾向于，尤其是加尔文，加尔文有如此聪明的头脑，\N他想专注于我们能理解多少信仰，并在某些方面远离奥秘。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They also tended, Calvin especially, to—Calvin had such a brilliant mind, he wanted to focus on how much we could understand of the faith and tended away from mystery in certain ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:05.67,0:09:13.43,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}改革者反对他们认为天主教传统中过多的神秘主义，并远离了这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The reformers reacted against what they saw as too much mysticism in the Catholic tradition and moved away back from that.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.43,0:09:23.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以我会说，有两件事对天主教信仰，对基督教信仰是至关重要的，改\N革者对此作出了反应，并在很大程度上抛弃了，至少在一开始是这样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So I would say there are two things that are essential to the Catholic faith, to the Christian faith, that the reformers reacted to and left behind largely, at least in the beginning.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:23.92,0:09:29.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}第一是奇迹，第二是奥秘——奇迹和奥秘。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The first was miracle, and the second was mystery—miracle and mystery.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.46,0:09:33.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这很好，马库斯昨晚为我铺好了路，如果你听了他谈论自然神论，它\N在启蒙运动中的根源，然后帕特里克也帮助谈论了一点启蒙运动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And it's great, Marcus has kind of set things up for me last night, if you were listening when he was talking about deism, its roots in the Enlightenment, and then Patrick also helped talking about the Enlightenment a little bit.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.78,0:09:33.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我喜欢称之为“蒙昧运动”，我认为在某些方面这更合适。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I like to call it the Endarkenment, I think that's more appropriate in some ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.78,0:09:33.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但马库斯将自然神论的根源追溯到启蒙运动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But Marcus traced deism's roots back to the Enlightenment.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.78,0:09:36.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我会追溯——我要追溯得更远——我说启蒙运动的根源在于宗教改革。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I would trace—I'm going to go back even further—I say that the roots of the Enlightenment are in the Protestant Reformation.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:36.72,0:10:17.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当有人说，是的，当然有神，他行奇迹，他能行奇迹，他能预言，他能做所有这些事\N情，但他只是在很久很久以前，十五个世纪前，或者那时停止了，他不再这样做了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When you have people saying, yes, of course there's a God, he works miracles, he can work miracles and he can prophesy, he can do all these things, but he only did it long, long ago, fifteen centuries ago, or stopped doing it then, he doesn't do it anymore.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:17.57,0:10:26.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你让人们开始怀疑，嗯，如果他现在不这样做，并且几\N个世纪以来都没有这样做，他真的曾经这样做过吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You're setting people up to begin wondering, hmm, well if he doesn't do it now and he hasn't done it for centuries, did he ever really do it?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.12,0:10:31.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果他们会回答你，是的，因为我们怎么知道呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And if they would respond to you, well, yes, because how do we know?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:31.12,0:10:46.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因为我们有圣经，它告诉我们，但同一个人刚刚抛弃了给我们圣经的教会的\N权威，那么你就让他们说，也许圣经没有说实话，也许这只是一个传说。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Because we have the Scripture and it tells us so, but then that same person has just thrown out the authority of the Church that gave us the Scripture, then you've set them up to say, well, maybe the Scripture's not telling the truth, maybe this is a legend.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.03,0:10:54.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果我不能信任给我这些书并告诉我它们是权威的教会的权威，也许我也不能信任这些书。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If I can't trust the authority of the Church that gave me these books and told me that they were authoritative, maybe I can't trust the books either.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.09,0:11:05.15,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我真的认为这种逻辑——当然这是过于简化的——但这种逻辑最\N终在许多方面发挥了作用，至少在某种程度上促成了启蒙运动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I really think the logic of that—this is oversimplifying, of course—but the logic of that eventually worked its way, in many ways, to help at least contribute to the Enlightenment.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:06.52,0:11:20.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}关于启蒙运动的有趣之处在于，你有纯粹的启蒙类型，自然神论者，正如马库斯昨\N晚提到的，他们相信有一个神，他创造了世界，但他现在基本上不再参与世界。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The interesting thing about the Enlightenment is that you have the pure Enlightenment type, the deist, who, as Marcus mentioned last night, believed that there was a God and that he had made the world, but that he was largely uninvolved with the world now.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:20.86,0:11:39.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他就像一个钟表匠——这是著名的比喻——制造了钟表，然后离开他的工作坊，把\N钟表留在工作台上自行停止，再也不参与，或者有些人称之为缺席地主神学，神就\N像一个建造了房子的地主，他让人们住在里面，然后他离开了，他们就靠自己。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He was like a watchmaker—that's the famous image—who makes the watch and then leaves his workshop and leaves the watch on the bench to wind down on its own, never involved again, or some people call it the absentee landlord theology, that God is like a landlord who's built a house and he's let people live in it and then he's left and they're on their own.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:40.98,0:12:06.77,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}很多人坚持这种观点——托马斯·杰斐逊，本杰明·富兰克林——但在我\N们的文化中，我相信它产生了更深远的影响，不仅仅是自然神论者这样思\N考，这种思维方式在某些方面在文化中如此根深蒂固，以至于即使是非常\N虔诚的人，甚至一些坚定的基督徒，也开始思考，至少受到这种影响。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, lots of people held to that—Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin—but in our culture I believe it came to have a much more far-reaching influence, that you didn't just have deists thinking that way, but that way of thinking became so established in the culture in certain ways that even very religious people, even some committed Christians, began thinking, at least being influenced by that.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.35,0:12:31.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}到我五十年代来到一个长老会教堂时——他们称之为主流，传统的长老会教堂—\N—在新教美国的文化中有很大一部分——我不是说所有新教徒都这样想——我不\N会说有功能性的自然神论者，但我会说也许你可以称之为时代论的自然神论者。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}By the time I came along in the fifties, in a Presbyterian church—kind of a mainline as they call it, a traditional Presbyterian church—there was a good part of the culture in Protestant America that—and I'm not saying all Protestants thought this way—I won't say there were functional deists, but I would say maybe what you might call dispensational deists.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:31.100,0:12:43.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在某些形式的新教神学中，有一种观念认为神在某些时代、时间段中与世界打交\N道，并且在每个时代中以不同的方式处理，而我们现在处于一个特定的时代。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In some forms of Protestant theology there's the notion that God deals with the world in certain dispensations, periods of time, and he deals differently in each dispensation, and we're in a particular dispensation now.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.81,0:13:02.61,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}几乎就像是，现在我们所处的时代，这段教会历史，教会历史时期，几乎就像\N自然神论，神在那里，他在天上，你祈祷，他通常通过安排环境来回答祈祷。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And it was almost as if, the attitude was almost as if that in the dispensation we're in now, this church history, period of church history, that it's almost like deism, that God's there and he's in heaven and you pray and he answers prayers generally by just kind of arranging circumstances.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.78,0:13:21.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我们不能指望他像在基督里那样与我们的生活互动，入侵我们的世界，当基督降临\N地上，神在肉身中，或与使徒们及他们所行的奇迹，甚至与旧约中所做的事情那样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But we can't expect him to interact with our lives, to invade our world, the way he did in Christ, when Christ came to earth, God in the flesh, or with the apostles and the miracles they worked, or even with the kinds of things that have been done in the Old Testament.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:21.67,0:13:27.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那已经结束了，我们不能指望神再次入侵世界，直到第二次降临。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That that was over and we couldn't expect God to invade the world again until the Second Coming.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:28.41,0:13:33.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而我们生活在其中的这个时代，我们不能指望任何这些事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this dispensation that we live in in between, we just can't expect any of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:34.51,0:13:51.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，这需要很大的信心，我所成长的人在这方面确实有很大的信\N心，即使他们从未见过奇迹，即使他们认为自己已经弄明白了，因\N为他们的信仰中没有太多的奥秘，这样生活需要很大的信心。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And of course that takes a lot of great faith, and the people that I was raised with did have great faith in that regard, that even if they never saw a miracle, even if they kind of thought they had it figured out because there wasn't much room for mystery in their faith, it took a lot of faith to live that way.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:52.68,0:14:13.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但无论如何，发生了一些事情改变了这一点，模式是我们与神互动的方式基本上是你祈\N祷，你的祈祷升到天上，神在天上，他以某种方式安排地上的事情来回答你的祈祷。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But nevertheless, something happened to change that, that the paradigm was that the way we interact with God pretty much is that you pray, and your prayers go up to heaven, and God's in heaven and he arranges things on earth to answer your prayer one way or another.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.78,0:14:23.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但至少在这些圈子里，仍然有一种距离感，我们并\N没有真正像圣经时代那样让神入侵我们的世界。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But there's still, at least in these circles, there was kind of a sense of distance, that we didn't really have God invading our world the way he had in Bible times.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:25.91,0:14:27.41,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但这不是唯一的看法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But that's not the only way to see things.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:27.41,0:14:33.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在你想想天主教会，以及我所称的圣事的世界观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now you think about the Catholic Church and what I would call the sacramental way of viewing the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.25,0:14:58.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}天主教的教导，我们对现实的看法，这是真实的看法，事情的本来面\N目是，当基督降临地上，当神的圣子入侵我们的世界，当他取了人性\N，将其与他自己的神性结合为一体，永恒的神子成为既是人又是神。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Catholic teaching, our vision of reality, and it's a true vision, that's the way things really are, is that when Christ came to earth, when God the Son invaded our world, when he took human nature, joined it to his own divine nature into one person, the eternal Son of God became human as well as divine.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:59.23,0:15:03.43,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他永远不会再放弃那个人性。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And he will never, ever let go of that human nature again.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.43,0:15:04.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那是他永远的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's his forever.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:05.53,0:15:09.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在坐在天上宝座上的，是我们中的一位。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The one who sits on the throne of heaven now is one of us.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:10.58,0:15:12.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他既是人也是神。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He's a human being as well as God.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:13.34,0:15:18.22,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}一旦他这样做了，事情就再也不会一样了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And once he did that, nothing would ever again be the same.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:19.14,0:15:21.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}事情再也不会一样了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Nothing would ever be the same again.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.78,0:15:24.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因为他取了人性并改变了它。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Because he was taking human nature and transforming it.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:25.46,0:15:56.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在这道成肉身中，神子的降生，现实本身被改变，使得现实成为我们所称的圣事，\N虽然不是字面上的圣事意义，但在同样的原则上，神不仅仅是在天上安排地上的事\N情以回应我们的祈祷，而是他已经入侵了这个星球，并且每天都在再次入侵。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in this incarnation, this enfleshing of the Son of God, what happens is reality itself gets changed so that reality becomes what we call sacramental, though not in a literal sacrament sense, but kind of in the same principle, that God isn't just in heaven kind of arranging things on earth in response to our prayer, but that he has invaded this planet and he invades it again every day.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:57.77,0:16:02.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当他来临时，他就在我们这里，他就在我们中间。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When he comes, he's right here with us, he's right here among us.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:02.28,0:16:06.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他通过我们，通过我们的身体，通过我们的声音来工作。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He works through us, through our bodies, through our voices.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:07.19,0:16:12.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他通过物质元素来工作，使它们成为圣事。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He works through material elements and they become sacramental.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:12.90,0:16:21.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}它们不仅仅是他恩典和能力的标志，而是真正成为他恩典和能力的器皿。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They become not just signs of his grace and power, but they are actually vessels of his grace and power.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:22.26,0:16:31.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，我们与天堂之间的任何想象中的距离在某种意义上都消失了，因为天堂已经降临。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that any distance we might imagine between ourselves and heaven in a sense gets collapsed because heaven has come down.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:32.24,0:16:39.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}自从他的道成肉身，然后五旬节，圣灵降临，距离就消失了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Ever since his incarnation and then Pentecost, the Holy Spirit coming down, the distance has been collapsed.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:39.07,0:16:41.35,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他就在我们中间。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He's right here among us.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:41.57,0:16:44.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}神的国就在我们中间。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The kingdom of God is among us.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:45.09,0:16:49.31,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是一个非常强大的现实，天主教徒也往往会忘记。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's a very powerful reality and Catholics tend to forget it too.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:49.31,0:16:49.93,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们很多人都是如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}A lot of us do.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:49.93,0:16:53.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们都受到这些启蒙思想的影响。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We've all been influenced by these Enlightenment ideas.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.75,0:16:58.71,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但无论如何，如果我们注意，每次我们参加弥撒时，我们都会被提醒这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But nevertheless, if we pay attention, every time we're at Mass we have the reminder of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:58.71,0:17:03.49,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在礼仪中的祈求圣灵降临的祷文中，圣灵被召唤从祭坛降临。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Epicles in the liturgy where the Holy Spirit is invoked to come down from the altar.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:03.71,0:17:27.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}通过神父所说的话，神使用这些话，并使用像面包和酒这样卑微而普通的东西来改变它们\N，使它们本质上转变为耶稣的身体、血、灵魂和神性，不仅在天上的宝座上，也在这里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And what happens through the words spoken of the priest, God uses those words and uses something as humble and common as bread and wine to change them, to transubstantiate them so that the very reality of Jesus' body, blood, soul, and divinity is not just on the throne of heaven, it's right here.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.59,0:17:32.11,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们将其纳入自身，并改变我们。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we take it into ourselves and it transforms us.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:33.19,0:17:35.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}其他圣事也是如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And the same thing with the other sacraments.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.47,0:17:41.04,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在洗礼中，这不仅仅是我们悔改的标志，如在许多新教传统中那样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In baptism, it's not just a sign that we've repented as it is in so many Protestant traditions.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:41.24,0:17:43.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这不仅仅是遵循神的命令去做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's not just obeying God's command to do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:44.40,0:17:57.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在洗礼中，神自己，神圣灵，入侵我们的世界，降临\N到个人，改变他的灵魂，洗净它，一个全新的现实。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In baptism, God himself, God the Holy Spirit, invades our world, comes down to the individual, transforms his soul, washes it clean, a whole new reality.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.17,0:18:01.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在坚振中，圣灵降临。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in confirmation, the Holy Spirit comes down.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:01.37,0:18:11.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在所有的圣事中，在告解中，基督自己，神自己通过赦罪的话，通过神父在说话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in all the sacraments, in confession, Christ himself, God himself is speaking through the words of absolution, through the priest.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.30,0:18:18.31,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}神父是一个器皿，他的话具有神圣的力量，不仅仅是话语。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The priest is a vessel and his words have divine power, they're not just words.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:19.87,0:18:23.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在看，对于我们天主教徒来说，这似乎，嗯，是的，当然，还有什么呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now see, for us as Catholics, that seems, well, yeah, of course, what else?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:25.11,0:18:31.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我成长的传统中，那是魔法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But the tradition I was raised in, that's magic.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:31.64,0:18:32.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你在说什么？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What are you talking about?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:32.64,0:18:33.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不，不，不。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}No, no, no.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.88,0:18:36.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}几乎全在头脑中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It was all in the head, pretty much.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.50,0:18:43.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我的意思是，有道德方面，所以当然你应该在生活中去做事情来尊崇神的诫命。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I mean, there was a moral aspect, so of course you were supposed to go out and do things in life to honor the commandments of God.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:43.26,0:18:48.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但特别是当你们聚在一起敬拜时，你们几乎是从这里向上敬拜。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But when you came together for worship especially, you pretty much worshipped from here up.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:49.91,0:18:59.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你会听到讲道和读经，你会尽力去理解，你会承认你\N的信仰，你会听到你应该做什么，然后你就去做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You would hear the sermons and the scripture read, you would do your best to understand, you would confess your faith, you would hear what you're supposed to do and you'd go out and do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:59.80,0:19:05.54,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那是真正的敬拜，但几乎是心灵的敬拜。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And it was genuine worship, but it was worship pretty much of the mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:08.28,0:19:28.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我在密苏里州的一所州立大学教书时，我会给我的学生布置一个作业，他们必须去一个\N——我在教美国宗教，各种不同的宗教——他们必须去一个不是他们自己的传统的礼拜\N，然后回来向我报告他们看到了什么，有什么不同寻常的，什么让他们印象深刻。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Some of my students at a state university in Missouri, where I used to teach in Missouri State, I would give them an assignment where they would have to go to a—I was teaching American religion, all the different kinds—they had to go to a tradition, a service of a tradition not of their own, and then come back and report to me what they saw, what was unusual, what struck them.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:29.04,0:19:41.04,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我总是记得一个长老会的学生特别去参加天主教\N的礼拜，然后回来问他，什么让你印象深刻？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I'll always remember how a Presbyterian student in particular would go to a Catholic service and come back and say, so what really struck you?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:41.04,0:19:43.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们会说，他们一直在动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And they'd say, they're moving all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:45.89,0:19:46.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你是什么意思？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What do you mean?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.93,0:19:53.13,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们站起来，坐下，跪下，站起来，他们做这个有趣的小动作。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They stand up, they sit down, they kneel, they stand up, they do this funny little thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:53.91,0:19:56.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}顺便问一下，为什么天主教徒嘴唇发痒？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And by the way, why do Catholics have itchy lips?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:58.28,0:19:59.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}嘴唇发痒。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Itchy lips.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:59.18,0:20:03.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}是的，有一次整个房间的人都在这样抓他们的嘴唇。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Yeah, one time everyone in the whole room was scratching their lips just like this.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:03.94,0:20:05.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}然后他们也抓了他们的胸口。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And then they scratched their chest too.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:06.58,0:20:09.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好吧，让我告诉你福音之前的福音，我们做什么。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, let me tell you about the gospel before the gospel, what we do.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:09.87,0:20:18.69,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这让他们感到震惊，因为他们来自一个几乎是这样的礼拜，\N你可能站起来唱歌，然后坐下，因为一切都集中在这里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And it just struck them that because they came from a service where it's pretty much this, you stand up to sing maybe, and you sit down, because it's all focused here.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:18.69,0:20:21.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}身体几乎没有参与。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The body hardly gets involved at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:21.67,0:20:23.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我说，那没什么。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I said, well, that's nothing.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:23.29,0:20:25.49,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}让我送你去一个五旬节教会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Let me send you to one of the Pentecostal churches.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:27.12,0:20:29.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这有助于说明我的观点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that helps to make my point.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:29.82,0:20:41.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因为当你去参加五旬节礼拜时，你会发现他们对身体在敬\N拜中的态度比我所说的另一种类型更接近天主教的态度。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Because when you go to a Pentecostal service and you realize that their attitude about the body in worship is a whole lot closer to the Catholic attitude than to this other type that I'm talking about.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.39,0:20:43.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在让我继续，我要在这里加一个警告。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now let me go ahead and I'll put in a caveat here.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:43.47,0:20:53.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你们中许多年轻人可能会说，嗯，你知道，我是在10年、20年前\N的新教教会中长大的，或者熟悉新教教会的，那时根本不是这样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Many of you younger folks will probably say, well, you know, I was raised in or familiar with Protestant churches 10 years, 20 years ago, and it wasn't like that at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.82,0:20:58.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}实际上，这有助于说明我的观点，因为那些主流教会受到五旬节\N和灵恩运动的影响如此之大，以至于它们整体上已经远离了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And actually that helps to make my point, because those mainline churches have been so influenced by the Pentecostal and charismatic movement that they've moved away as a whole.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.76,0:20:58.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是为什么我可以说现在有数百万人更接近天主教的看法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that's why I can say millions of people now are closer to the Catholic way of looking at things.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.76,0:20:58.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好吧，让我们来讲一点历史，然后我们继续。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Okay, let's get to a little history, and then we'll go on.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.76,0:21:03.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在19世纪末的几十年里，美国这里曾经爆发过一些五旬节热情和现象。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There had been some outbreaks, you might say, of Pentecostal fervor and phenomena in the last decades of the 1800s here in the United States.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:03.20,0:21:28.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但作为一场运动，这场运动始于1901年1月1日\N的堪萨斯州托皮卡。有一个名叫查尔斯·帕尔的人。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But the movement as a movement began in Topeka, Kansas, on January 1st, 1901. There was a man named Charles Parr.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:28.50,0:21:30.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我是伯特利圣经学院的创始人。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm the founder of Bethel Bible College.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:31.20,0:21:36.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他是在循道宗和圣洁传统中长大的，这两者都是卫斯理宗传统。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He had been raised a Methodist and then a Holiness tradition, both of which are Wesleyan traditions.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.86,0:21:57.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有一天，他学院的学生们在一系列祷告之后，通过阅读《使徒行传》\N第二章，关于五旬节的那一天，以及其他圣经文本，得出结论，圣灵\N的洗礼是每个基督徒信徒所必需的，而这种洗礼的证据就是说方言。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And the students at his college one day, after a series of prayer, came to the conclusion by reading the second chapter of Acts, about the day of Pentecost, and other biblical texts that a baptism, an immersion of the Holy Spirit, was essential for every Christian believer, and that the evidence of that baptism was speaking in tongues.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:58.60,0:22:10.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有一位名叫艾格尼丝·奥斯蒙特的年轻女子，来自循道宗圣公会背景，她\N请求其他人按手在她身上，为她祈祷接受圣灵，就像圣经中所做的那样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There was a young woman named Agnes Osment, of the Methodist Episcopal Church background, and she asked the others to lay hands on her and pray for her to receive the Holy Spirit, just as was done in the Bible.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:11.28,0:22:14.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当他们这样做时，她开始说方言。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When they did, she began speaking in tongues.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:14.44,0:22:17.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}她相信那是中文，当然我们不知道那是什么。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And she believed that it was Chinese, and of course we don't know what it was.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:19.01,0:22:30.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不久之后，一位名叫威廉·西摩的非裔美国学生，在帕尔汉学院学习\N，受到了这些教义的影响，然后他回到了加利福尼亚州的洛杉矶。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well soon after that, not long, a man named William Seymour, who was an African American student at Parham's College, came under the influence of these teachings, and then he went back to Los Angeles, California.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:30.92,0:22:40.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他于1906年开始在一个名叫亚苏萨街的小地方的\N一个破旧的店面教堂里进行一系列的布道和祷告会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He began in 1906 an extended series of preaching and prayer meetings in a little tumbledown storefront church on a little place called Azusa Street.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:40.93,0:23:08.59,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但那些聚会很快在展示说方言和热情洋溢的敬拜形式上变得相当轰动，其中一\N些实际上根植于非洲宗教，我希望我们能谈谈这个，还有来自旧南方边疆更活\N跃的复兴传统，这里的一些来自肯塔基州的人，你们可能都知道关于19世纪\N初肯塔基州的早期复兴聚会，以及跳跃、跳跃和像狗一样吠叫，各种事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But those meetings soon became quite sensationalist in their display of speaking in tongues and exuberant forms of wish worship, some of which actually have roots in African religion, I wish we could talk about that, and also from the more lively revivalist traditions of the old Southern frontier, some of the folks here from Kentucky, you probably all know all about the early revival meetings in Kentucky in the early 1800s, and the jumping and the leaping and barking like a dog, all kinds of things.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:08.59,0:23:18.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但人们从南加州各地赶来看发生了什么，洛杉矶的报纸认为，哦，太好了\N，这是一个卖报纸的方法，我们会谈论那些在亚苏萨街上的疯狂人们。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But people came from all over Southern California to see what was happening, and the Los Angeles newspapers thought, oh great, here's a way to sell newspapers, we'll talk about those crazy folks down on Azusa Street.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:19.24,0:23:23.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}聚会持续了三年，报纸不断做一系列报道。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And the meetings went on for three years, the paper kept doing a series of stories.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:24.50,0:23:37.11,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}新来的访客来自美国各地和其他国家，许多人感到困惑并离开\N，但可能大多数人接受了这个新五旬节运动的信仰和实践。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Newly visitors were coming from all over the United States and other countries as well, and many of them were kind of puzzled and left, but probably most of them adopted the beliefs and practices of this new Pentecostal movement.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:37.11,0:23:47.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们当然这样命名，因为使徒们在五旬节那天被圣灵充满，并在那天说了方言。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They named it that way, of course, because the Apostles had had the infilling of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and on that day had spoken in tongues.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:47.41,0:23:56.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}于是他们回到家乡，成为新运动的传教士，并将其独特的教义和实践传播到全国乃至海外。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So they went back home, they became missionaries of the new movement, and they spread its distinctive teachings and practices all over the country and overseas as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:57.26,0:24:13.11,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}整个五旬节教派兴起——神召会、五旬节圣洁教会、基督中\N的神教会等——成为世界上增长最快的基督教宗教运动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Entire denominations of Pentecostal arose—the Assemblies of God, the Pentecostal Holy Church, the Church of God in Christ, and others—and became the fastest-growing Christian religious movement in the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:13.78,0:24:25.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但随后在1960年代，运动的第二波开始，五旬\N节信仰和实践重新进入旧的新教教派和天主教会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But then a second wave of the movement began in the 1960s, where Pentecostal beliefs and practices found their way back into the older Protestant denominations and into the Catholic Church as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.86,0:24:44.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}旧的新教教派——过程通常是，你去参加这些聚会之一，回来后你说，我要说\N方言，我要预言，我要在敬拜时用我的身体做各种事情，我不会静止，他们会\N给你，我们称之为，不是右手的团契而是左脚的团契，然后你就出去了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The older Protestant denominations—the process had usually been, you go to one of these meetings, you come back, you say, I'm going to speak in tongues, and I'm going to prophesy, and I'm going to do all kinds of things with my body while I'm worshipping, I'm not going to be still, and they would give you, as we called it, not the right hand of fellowship but the left foot of fellowship, and out you go.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:45.28,0:24:47.100,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但到了1960年代，发生了一件有趣的事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But by the 1960s an interesting thing happened.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.100,0:24:53.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}一些非常受人尊敬的人开始有这种经历，并改变了他们的世界观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Some very respectable people began to have this experience and to have their worldview changed.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:53.58,0:25:09.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}其中有一位名叫丹尼斯·贝内特神父的人，他是华盛顿州的一\N位英国圣公会神父，我想是的，他却说，我不会离开教会或这\N些教派，我要留在这里帮助人们理解我为什么这样看待事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Among them a man named Fr. Dennis Bennett, who was an Episcopal priest up in Washington State, I think it was, who nevertheless said, I'm not leaving the Church or these denominations, I'm going to stay here and help people understand why I see things this way.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:09.30,0:25:17.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}从1970年代开始——那时我开始参与其中——五旬\N节派和灵恩派共同形成了世界上最大的基督教运动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And together then, over time, since the 1970s—and that's when I began to be involved with it—Pentecostals and Charismatics have formed the largest Christian movement in the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:17.78,0:25:25.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}数百万人在这个国家加入了这个运动，全球有数亿人，遍及拉丁美洲和其他地方。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Millions have come into its fold in this country and hundreds of millions worldwide, all through Latin America and other places.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:25.80,0:25:34.63,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但即使超越那些自称为灵恩派或五旬节派的人，它也间接影响了无数人的宗教信仰和实践。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But beyond even the folks who would call themselves Charismatics or Pentecostals, it has indirectly influenced the religious beliefs and practices of countless more.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:35.41,0:25:44.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在对于大多数五旬节派——我将用这个短语来指代五旬节派和\N灵恩派，他们常常喜欢区分自己——但这种生活方式开始了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now for most Pentecostals—and I'll just use that as a short term to mean Pentecostals and Charismatics, they often like to distinguish themselves—but this way of life began.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:44.28,0:25:51.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}它始于一种称为圣灵洗礼的经历，通常与某种说方言有关。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It begins with this experience called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and usually associated with some kind of speaking in tongues.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:51.26,0:26:19.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我会说其主要之处在于，这是一种圣灵确实降临并入侵你的感觉，他\N们称之为圣灵洗礼的原因之一不仅仅是因为它是圣经语言，而是因为你\N有一种感觉，你正在被神浸透，你完全被神浸透，神进入你，圣灵。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But I would say the main thing about it is this, it's a sense that the Holy Spirit does come down and invade you, that one of the reasons they call it Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not just because it's biblical language, but because you have the sense that you are being immersed in God, and you're being just totally immersed in God and that God's coming into you, the Holy Spirit.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:19.66,0:26:33.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，我们不想把一切都建立在感觉上，但我想说的是，这种感觉\N，这种发生了的感觉，往往会改变你看待神和世界的整个视角。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And of course, we don't want to base everything on feeling, but what I want to say is this, that feeling, that sense that that's what's happened, then tends to kind of change your whole view of the way you see God and the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:33.02,0:26:42.63,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}突然之间，这种旧的范式，这种旧的古典新教范\N式，这种时代论的自然神论，不再有多大意义。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And all of a sudden, this old paradigm, this old kind of classical Protestant paradigm, this dispensationalist deism, doesn't make much sense anymore.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:43.17,0:26:54.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因为从那开始，然后是一系列的五旬节经历和实践，\N你开始有一种感觉，你知道，祷告根本不是那样的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Because beginning with that, and then a whole series of Pentecostal experiences and practices, you begin to have the sense that, you know, prayer's not like that at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.98,0:26:59.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们请求神入侵，接管这里，他确实降临。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We ask God to invade, to take over here, and he does come down.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:59.46,0:27:20.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他不仅用圣灵洗礼你，他还通过你和在你里面工作，通过你的话\N语，通过你的按手，通过你在敬拜中的身体姿势，通过油，甚至\N有时，如果你能想象，一些五旬节派有圣水，还有那些东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He doesn't just baptize you with the Spirit, but he works through you and in you, and through your words, and through your laying on of hands, and through your body postures in worship, and through oil, and through, even sometimes, if you can imagine, some Pentecostals have holy water, and those kinds of things.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:20.95,0:27:30.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们开始以全新的视角看待世界，这向他们揭示了神的极度亲近，就像对我一样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And they begin to see the world in a whole new light that reveals to them, as it did to me, the utter closeness of God.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.54,0:27:36.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他就在这里，就在现在，而且他很忙。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He is right here, right now, and he's busy.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:37.24,0:27:38.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他在做事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He's doing stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.28,0:27:44.93,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以要么与他同行，要么让开，因为神正在这里，现在做事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So either get with him or get out of the way, because God is doing stuff here, right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.45,0:27:56.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，这可能在此时显得有些抽象，但我希望你能立\N刻看到，至少，这是一种更圣事的看待世界的方式。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, this is, you know, it's probably all kind of abstract at this point, but I hope you can see right away, at least, that that is a more sacramental way of looking at the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:57.22,0:28:09.54,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}神在基督里降临世界，圣灵降临，在圣事中，圣灵降临，\N他使用物质的、物理的东西，他就在这里，就在现在。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That God in Christ comes to the world, and the Holy Spirit comes, and that in the sacraments, the Holy Spirit comes, and that he uses material, physical things, and that he's right here, right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:09.70,0:28:31.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以对于五旬节派来说，就像对于天主教徒一样，我们感受到神圣的临在和力量与我\N们的呼吸、我们洗涤的水、我们赖以生存的食物和饮料一样接近，神来到我们这里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So for the Pentecostal, as for the Catholic, we come to the sense that the divine presence and power are as near to us as the breath that we breathe, the water with which we wash, the food and drink with which we are sustained, and that God comes to us.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.94,0:28:41.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他通过附近卑微的物质事物，与我们同工，并在我们里面工作，就在这里，就在现在。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He works with us and within us, right here, right now, by means of humble, physical things that are nearby.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.51,0:28:47.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}面包和酒，油，水，人类的话语，人类的手。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Bread and wine, oil, water, human words, human hands.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:49.29,0:28:53.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}让我们谈谈一些具体的事情，好吗。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Let's talk about a few particulars as our time, okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:53.72,0:29:01.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}首先，让我们看看这个概念，你可以说几乎是身体的圣事概念。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}First, let's look at this notion of, you could say almost the sacramental notion of the body.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:02.36,0:29:20.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对于天主教徒来说，你去参加敬拜，你去看弥撒，你会看到他们理解身体也在敬拜，\N这不仅仅是心灵的事情，你用身体做的事情体现、包含、反映了你用心灵做的事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}For Catholics, you go to the worship, you go to see Mass, and you see that they understand that the body worships too, it's not just this kind of mental thing, and that what you do with your body enflushes, incorporates, reflects what you're doing with your mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:20.40,0:29:27.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}跪下，有时甚至，嗯，和神父一起，举手，有时也和其他天主教徒一起。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The kneeling, sometimes even, well, with a priest, the raising of hands, and sometimes with other Catholics as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:27.54,0:29:39.13,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在一个好的星期五，那是一个强有力的时刻，当神父在祭坛前\N俯伏时，身体是重要的，它不仅仅是一个有点碍事的东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And a good Friday, that powerful, powerful time when the priests prostrate themselves before the altar, that the body's important, it's not just this thing that kind of gets in the way.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:39.38,0:29:42.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你进入一个五旬节礼拜，你会看到同样的事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You go into a Pentecostal service and you see the same kind of things.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:43.14,0:29:53.55,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}人们突破，我记得作为一个新的灵恩派，对我来说\N最难的事情就是举起我的手，然后你就这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Folks break out of, I remember as a new Charismatic, it was the hardest thing for me to get my hands up, and you kind of go, like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:53.55,0:29:57.99,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们会说，来吧，这不会伤害，但感觉很显眼。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And they'd say, come on, it won't hurt, but it feels so conspicuous.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:58.33,0:30:00.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}每个人都在做，怎么会显眼呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Everybody's doing it, how could it be conspicuous?
Dialogue: 0,0:30:00.45,0:30:01.15,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:04.29,0:30:06.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}感觉很好，感觉很好。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And it felt good, it felt good.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:06.05,0:30:09.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在我不是在谈论弥撒，我在谈论我还是新教徒的时候。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now I'm not talking about in Mass, I'm talking about when I was still a Protestant.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:10.03,0:30:16.27,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但这就是我们在我成长的传统中感到的限制，那是个禁忌。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But that's how confined we felt within the tradition I grew up in, that it was a no-no.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:16.27,0:30:21.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}除了这个姿势作为敬拜姿势，你敢做任何事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Don't you dare do anything besides this as a posture of worship.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:21.38,0:30:30.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}举起你的手，跪下，上下跳跃，跳舞，你实际上可以跳舞。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Stick your hands up, kneel, jump up and down, dance, you could actually dance.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:32.48,0:30:34.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但那只是事情的开始。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But that was just the beginning of things.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.04,0:30:38.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}关于身体治愈的概念呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}How about the notion of physical healing?
Dialogue: 0,0:30:39.32,0:31:02.41,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你看，当我在博士课程中开始研究这一切时，真正让我震惊的一件事是，我有\N历史神学的博士学位，所以我研究了教会教义的发展，我非常惊讶地发现，你\N知道，即使路德和加尔文说奇迹在使徒之后停止了，天主教会并没有这样说。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You see, one of the things that really struck me when I started studying all of this in my doctoral program, I have a PhD in historical theology, so I looked at the development of the doctrine of the Church, was that I was so surprised to find out, you know, even though Luther and Calvin said that miracles stopped after the Apostles, the Catholic Church didn't say that.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:03.06,0:31:05.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}天主教会肯定奇迹一直存在。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Catholic Church affirmed that miracles have always been.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:05.98,0:31:12.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}天主教会记录了人们被治愈的实例，许多人被治愈，不仅仅是圣徒，还有其他人。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Catholic Church recorded instances of people being healed, lots of people being healed, not just saints but other folks too.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:13.09,0:31:23.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}神实际上降临，触摸他们的身体，神的治愈力量在身体上改变了他们。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That God actually came down, touched their bodies, and the healing power of God changed them physically.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:23.39,0:31:25.93,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对于我这种背景的人来说，这是一个疯狂的想法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What a crazy idea for someone from my background.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:25.93,0:31:31.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当我成为五旬节派并开始接受这些事情时，这真的让我震惊，这太疯狂了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And when I became Pentecostal and just began to assume those things, then it really struck me that this is crazy.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:31.36,0:31:39.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是天主教与新教之间最初的一个大争论，在天主教方面，是的，神仍然有奇迹。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is one of the big Catholic-Protestant arguments in the beginning, and on the Catholic side, yes, God still has miracles.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:39.58,0:31:43.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他仍然行奇迹，并奇迹般地治愈人们。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He still works miracles, and He heals people miraculously.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:43.28,0:31:50.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而在新教方面，至少对新教改革者来说，不，他不这样做。我看着他们，我说，这很奇怪。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And on the Protestant side, at least to the Protestant Reformers, was no, He doesn't. And I looked at them and I said, that's odd.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:50.79,0:31:52.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我站在这个争论的天主教一边。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm on the Catholic side of this argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:53.75,0:31:56.03,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我不在这个争论的新教一边。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm not on the Protestant side of this argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:56.73,0:31:58.51,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们是从哪里得到这个想法的？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Where did they ever get that idea?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:58.59,0:32:00.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，我们可以谈谈他们是从哪里得到这个想法的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And, of course, we could talk about where they got the idea.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:01.91,0:32:15.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以虽然我们可能不会声称它发生得像使徒们声称的那样频繁，但我知道\N在我成长的会众中，如果你说神今天行奇迹，他们会说，不，不要指望。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So although we may not claim that it happens as often as something the Apostles would claim, nevertheless, I knew that in the congregation I grew up, if you had said that God worked miracles today, they would have said, nope, don't even expect it.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:15.06,0:32:18.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}至少他们中的大多数会这样说。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}At least most of them would.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:18.36,0:32:23.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但另一方面，如果我问五旬节派或天主教徒，他们会说，当然，当然他会这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But on the other hand, if I asked Pentecostals or Catholics, they would have said, sure, sure He does it.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:23.70,0:32:24.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有什么能阻止它呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What's to stop it?
Dialogue: 0,0:32:26.85,0:32:35.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那么，关于奥秘的概念，我们现在多谈一点，关于异象或神谕的概念呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, how about, and now we talk a little bit more about the notion of mystery, how about the notion of visions or locutions?
Dialogue: 0,0:32:35.33,0:32:38.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，我们都知道对于私人启示的事情必须非常小心。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, we all know you have to be really careful with the thing of private revelation.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:38.97,0:32:43.03,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}顺便说一下，我不是在这里说五旬节运动在各方面都很美好。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I'm not here to say, by the way, that the Pentecostal movement is just wonderful in all of its ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:43.13,0:32:50.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}它有比任何运动都更多的古怪教义和实践、天真和神学怪异。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's got more eccentric teachings and practices and naivete and theological weirdness than probably any movement around.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:51.12,0:32:54.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以相信我，我不是在这里试图全面支持五旬节运动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So believe me, I'm not here to try to give a blanket endorsement of the Pentecostal movement.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:54.87,0:33:01.21,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我只是说它实际上改变了人们看待事物的方式，\N使他们至少在某种程度上更接近天主教信仰。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I'm simply saying it actually changed the way people saw things that brought them at least a little bit closer to the Catholic faith.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.21,0:33:02.83,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但关于异象和神谕的概念呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But how about the notion of visions and locutions?
Dialogue: 0,0:33:02.83,0:33:13.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我记得在我小时候的长老会教堂里，有一次一位受到灵恩\N影响的牧师在讲道中从讲坛上宣布神对他说了些什么。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I remember in my Presbyterian church when I was a kid, one time a pastor who had come under some charismatic influence announced from the pulpit one day in a sermon that God had spoken to him about something.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:13.80,0:33:16.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们有我们称之为神谕的东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And they had what we would call a locution.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:17.12,0:33:20.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这只是关于他应该如何为类似事情悔改的简单事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And it was just a simple thing about how he was supposed to repent about something like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:20.70,0:33:22.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}几个小时内，他被解雇了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Within a few hours, he had been fired.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:23.80,0:33:27.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你敢声称神通过神谕对你说话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Don't you dare ever claim that God has spoken to you in a locution.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:27.89,0:33:31.19,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我的意思是，我不会用那个词，或者说你有异象或类似的东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I mean, I wouldn't use that term, but, or that you have a vision or anything like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:31.19,0:33:32.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那不会发生。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That doesn't happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:34.29,0:33:36.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，对天主教徒来说，那是在说，好吧，你知道，你必须小心。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, to Catholics, that's saying, okay, you know, you have to be careful.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:36.81,0:33:38.73,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但当然，神有时会这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But of course, God does that sometimes.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:38.83,0:33:41.19,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有时他派遣圣徒去做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And sometimes he sends the saints to do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:43.10,0:33:48.43,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但在这些方面，五旬节派正在回归一种更接近天主教的世界观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But in these ways, the Pentecostals were moving back toward a more Catholic way of viewing the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:49.29,0:33:51.49,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}或者关于按手呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Or how about the laying on of hands?
Dialogue: 0,0:33:51.77,0:33:58.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在我成长的长老会和其他传统中，他们会这样做，但仅限于按立，并且仅作为一种象征。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And most of the Presbyterian, other traditions that I grew up in, they would do it, but only in ordination and only as a symbol.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:58.46,0:34:02.04,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这有点像我们承认神已经选择了这个人。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It was kind of like our recognition that God has already chosen this person.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:02.04,0:34:04.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以我们同意神，并且我们在展示这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so we're agreeing with God and we're demonstrating it.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:05.32,0:34:14.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但天哪，想到你会按手在某人身上，神会通过你的手工作\N，你可能真的按手在某人身上，然后会发生一些事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But boy, the thought that you would lay hands on somebody and that God would work through your hand, that you might actually lay hands on somebody and something would happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:15.41,0:34:20.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们作为天主教徒都知道，通过神父，这种事情经常发生。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That, that we all know as Catholics, through the priest happens all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:20.70,0:34:23.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们的按立不仅仅是一个象征。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And our ordination is not just a symbol.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:23.56,0:34:26.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}神实际上在被触摸者的灵魂上留下不可磨灭的印记。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}God actually puts an indelible mark on the soul of the person being touched.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:26.72,0:34:30.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}神的手通过那位神父的手在行动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}God's hand is acting through that priest hand.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:31.32,0:34:33.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而五旬节派对此没有问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And Pentecostals don't have trouble with that.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:33.96,0:34:36.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们来自的新教团体会有问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Protestant groups they came from would have.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:36.54,0:34:37.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但对他们来说这是自然的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But that's natural to them.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:37.64,0:34:39.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然神可以通过人手工作。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Of course God can work through human hands.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:39.48,0:34:41.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然他可以通过这种方式使事情发生。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Of course he can make things happen that way.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.74,0:34:43.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们一直在这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We do it all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:44.04,0:35:04.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，当天主教徒说神实际上可以通过神父的手行动时，他的恩典的力量可\N以通过神父，通过水，洗去原罪和实际的罪，并通过油和坚振来加强我们。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so God can actually, when Catholics say God can actually, through the hands of the priest, act, the power of his grace can, through the priest, through the water, wash away original sin and actual sin that it can strengthen us with the oil and confirmation.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:04.82,0:35:07.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这对五旬节派来说并不难接受。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's not such a hard thing for Pentecostals to accept.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:07.90,0:35:11.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但这对他们来自的其他团体来说确实很难。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But it sure was hard for the other groups they came from.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:12.56,0:35:17.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那么，关于身体之外的事情呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What about, let's go out a little bit from the body.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:17.22,0:35:17.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我将提到其他事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I'm going to mention other things.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:17.90,0:35:18.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}禁食。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Fasting.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.14,0:35:26.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在我年轻时所知道的大多数新教教派中，禁食只\N是圣经中的一件事，但你为什么要这样做呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Most of the Protestant denominations I knew when I was first younger, fasting was just something in the Bible, but why would you do that?
Dialogue: 0,0:35:27.88,0:35:36.91,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们不明白实际上有一种力量，使用身体和禁食将禁\N食与祷告结合在一起，实际上有一种恩典在其中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And they didn't understand that there's actually a power, that using the body and fasting to join fasting to prayer, there's actually a grace in that.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:36.91,0:35:38.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}神的恩典就在其中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}God's grace is in that.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:39.27,0:35:40.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但五旬节派知道这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But the Pentecostals know that.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:40.99,0:35:41.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们经常禁食。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They fast all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:41.95,0:35:45.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我曾是一个禁食40天的教会的一员。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I was part of a church that fasted 40 days.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:46.33,0:35:48.61,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}整个教会四十天不吃固体食物。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Forty days no solid food as a whole church.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:48.61,0:35:52.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}只有生病的、哺乳的和怀孕的母亲没有禁食。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Only those who were ill and nursing and pregnant mothers did not.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:53.34,0:35:56.22,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，他们知道其中有力量。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, they knew that there was power in that.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:57.14,0:36:00.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}或者关于宗教游行的概念呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Or how about the notion of religious processions?
Dialogue: 0,0:36:01.58,0:36:12.35,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}哦，如果有人谈论在我的长老会教堂里，嗯，让我们参加一个小游行，\N走到中间，带上漂亮的横幅或雕像，哦，天哪，他们绝不会这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Oh, my Presbyterian church would have gone crazy if anybody talked about, well, let's get in a, you know, like a little parade and go down the middle and have beautiful banners or whatever, statues or, oh man, they would have never.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:12.61,0:36:14.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但五旬节派理解这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But the Pentecostals understand that.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:14.29,0:36:15.69,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们有游行。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They have processions.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:15.71,0:36:19.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们知道你用身体来敬拜。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They know that you use the body to worship.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:19.33,0:36:22.100,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，他们可能没有圣母的雕像，但他们会这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, they may not have a statue of Our Lady, but they would do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:24.26,0:36:26.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}或者关于人声呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Or how about the human voice?
Dialogue: 0,0:36:27.42,0:36:50.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}五旬节派恢复了其他教派所缺乏的东西，即在口头语言中实际上可\N以有神的力量，人类的话语可以是神的话语，不仅在方言中，而且\N在预言中，神可以通过某人预言性地说话，耶稣的名字有力量。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Pentecostals recovered something that other denominations had lacked, that the notion that there actually can be the power of God in the spoken word, that the words of a human being can be the words of God, not just in tongues, but prophecy, that God can speak through someone prophetically, that the name of Jesus has power.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:51.17,0:36:54.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们不仅仅是在说因为人们听到耶稣的名字，他们会想，哦，多好。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we're not just talking about because people hear the name of Jesus and they think, oh, how nice.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:54.97,0:37:02.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不，那个词本身传达力量，可以说它是一种圣事。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}No, that the word itself conveys power, that it's a sacramental, so to speak.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:02.16,0:37:03.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们不会这样称呼它。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They wouldn't call it that.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:03.80,0:37:07.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们会唱关于耶稣的力量以及它如何使恶魔逃跑。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They'd sing about the power of Jesus and how it could make the demons flee.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:07.40,0:37:08.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}嗯，我们知道这一点，天主教传统。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, we know that, the Catholic tradition.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:08.96,0:37:14.25,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们正在回归，这是回到天主教的理解，是的，耶稣的名字是有力量的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They're coming, that's a coming back to the Catholic understanding that, yes, the name of Jesus is powerful.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:14.31,0:37:21.93,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在教会的早期世纪，如果他们遇到任何形式的恶魔力量，\N那就是耶稣和十字架的标志，这就是会驱赶它们的东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In the early centuries of the church, if they had any kind of encounter with demonic power, it was Jesus and the sign of the cross, and that's what would send them on.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:22.25,0:37:42.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们重新发现了祝福的力量，现在你知道，他们会说任何人都可以这样做，而在我\N们的传统中，某些类型的祝福是为神父保留的，但神实际上通过那口头语言工作，\N祝福不仅仅是美好的想法，而是祝福中有力量，因为神将他的力量加入其中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They rediscovered the power of blessings, that they're, now, you know, they would say kind of anybody can do it, and in our tradition, certain kinds of blessings are reserved for the priest, but that God actually does work through that spoken word, that blessings aren't just kind of nice thoughts, but that there's a power in the blessing, because God joins His power to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:42.39,0:37:43.79,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是一种圣事。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's a sacramental.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:45.35,0:37:47.45,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，我们将快速继续。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, we'll move on quickly.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:47.45,0:37:48.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我只有几分钟。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I only have a few minutes.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:49.41,0:38:02.73,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}超越身体，然后是口头语言，我会说，让我提一下，即使是长老会特别会说，口头语言\N有力量，因为如果你阅读圣经并研究它，那里面有力量，但这只是因为心灵掌握了它。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Beyond the body, then, the spoken word, and I would say that, let me just mention that even Presbyterians in particular would say that the spoken word has power in the sense that if you read the scripture and study it, that there's power in that, but it's only because the mind grasps it.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:02.79,0:38:07.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对于五旬节派来说，就像对于天主教徒一样，某些话语中甚至超越了这一点的力量。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}For Pentecostals, as for Catholics, there's a power in certain words even beyond that.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:07.01,0:38:23.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当神父说出祝圣的话语时，那是圣事的形式，神的力量在那些话语中，\N通过这些话语，基督的身体和血液出现了，曾经那里只有面包和酒。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When the priest says the words of consecration, that's the form of the sacrament, the power of God is in those words, and through that, body and blood of Christ come about, where once there was only bread and wine.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:23.94,0:38:35.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}五旬节派可以开始理解，你知道，他们可能一开始不接受，但他们可以理解这\N个原则，即代表神、由神通过人类说出的话语的力量可以完成类似的事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Pentecostal can begin to, you know, they may not accept it at first, but they can understand the principle that the power of words spoken on behalf of God, by God, through a human being can accomplish something like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:35.66,0:38:37.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}五旬节派有圣事物品。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Pentecostals have sacramental objects.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:37.82,0:38:38.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}膏油。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Anointing oil.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:39.03,0:38:42.09,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们用油膏抹以进行治愈和按手。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They anoint with oil for healing and laying on of hands.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:42.72,0:38:44.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}哦，我的天哪。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Oh, my goodness.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:44.40,0:38:50.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我成长时有朋友的浸信会教堂，有人尝试这样做，结果立刻被制止。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Baptist church where, you know, I had friends when I was growing up, somebody tried doing that and it was out right away.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:50.34,0:38:51.51,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那是魔法思维。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's magical thinking.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:51.51,0:38:53.61,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你敢想这样做。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Don't you dare think of doing that.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:54.57,0:39:01.11,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但当五旬节派开始了解天主教徒时，他们看到用油膏抹，按手，哦，我明白了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But when Pentecostals start knowing Catholics, they see anointing with oil, laying on of hands, oh, I understand that.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:01.13,0:39:04.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们有祷告布的概念，这几乎像一个圣物。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They have the notion of a prayer cloth, which is almost like a relic.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:05.77,0:39:05.77,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}是的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:05.77,0:39:09.55,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而且我注意到，有些人，正如我所说，甚至有圣水。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And some, as I've noticed, even, as I said, even have holy water.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:10.07,0:39:13.15,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们实际上会祝福水并将其洒在人身上。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They'll actually bless water and put it on people.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:13.15,0:39:15.59,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对他们来说，这有什么奇怪的呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And to them, what's so strange about that?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:15.59,0:39:17.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然神通过物质事物工作。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Of course God works through material things.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:18.20,0:39:22.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们的一些老长老会浸信会朋友可能会说，你在想什么？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And some of their old Presbyterian Baptist friends might say, what are you thinking?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:23.14,0:39:24.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但对他们来说，没什么大不了的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But for them, no big deal.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:26.08,0:39:26.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}还有两件事。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Two more things.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:26.88,0:39:29.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}一是等级制度和神圣权威的概念。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}One, the notion of hierarchy and divine authority.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:29.64,0:39:43.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，五旬节派以某种方式的无序和不断分裂而闻名，因为他们有一种态度，\N你知道，每个人通常可以有某种神圣的交流，所以每个人都可以成为先知。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, Pentecostals have been known for their, in some ways, lawlessness and always splintering and because they have the attitude, you know, that every individual can often can have some kind of divine communication so everybody can be a prophet.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:44.23,0:39:56.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但有趣的是，在那些传统中，灵恩传统中，人们没有宗\N派结构，五旬节信仰的内在逻辑可以说是最自由的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But interestingly enough, in those traditions, charismatic traditions, where people have, don't have denominational structures and the inner logic, so to speak, of Pentecostal faith can, is freest to work out.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:56.88,0:40:17.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}近年来，出现了一种观念的发展，即神的神圣权威被赋予神职人员，他\N们以其他人没有的方式代表神说话。你甚至在某些地方有这种现象，我\N曾谈到五旬节教皇，在那里人们在会众的生活中拥有如此多的权威。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There has been, in recent years, a development of the notion that God's divine authority gets invested in the clergy and that they speak for God in a way that others don't. And you even have this phenomenon in some places where you, I've spoken of Pentecostal popes, where the people have so much authority in the lives of the congregation.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:17.37,0:40:18.13,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}为什么？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Why?
Dialogue: 0,0:40:18.29,0:40:34.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}认为这些人拥有那种权威是错误的，但他们掌握了一个原则，即神在选择和按\N立某人时，在他们的灵魂上留下印记，并赋予他们其他人没有的某种权威。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's not, it's mistaken to think that these people have that authority, but they've got the principle down that God, when he chooses and ordains someone, he puts a mark on their soul and it gives them a certain authority that other people don't have.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:34.74,0:40:37.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}各位，这是一种天主教的世界观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Folks, that's a Catholic way of looking at the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:37.74,0:40:39.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是一种圣事的世界观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's a sacramental way of looking at the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:39.60,0:40:42.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}最后，驱魔。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And then finally, exorcism.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:42.66,0:40:43.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}哦，我的天哪。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Oh my goodness.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:44.38,0:40:49.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你知道，五旬节派，我曾参与过几次五旬节派的驱魔。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You know, Pentecostals, I was present for several Pentecostal exorcisms.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:49.08,0:40:50.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那些事情是真实的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Those things were real.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:50.89,0:40:59.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而在主流新教世界中，如果他们仍然相信魔鬼，他们仍然不会碰驱魔。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And where so much of the mainline Protestant world, if they still believed in the devil, they still would not touch exorcism with a 10-foot pole.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:59.88,0:41:03.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那是，你知道，那是中世纪的或圣经的或其他什么。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It was, you know, that's medieval or biblical or whatever.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:03.42,0:41:04.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}远离它。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Stay away from it.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:05.45,0:41:08.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但五旬节派，你知道，直接冲进去了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But Pentecostals, you know, ran right into it.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:08.01,0:41:09.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}触及到了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Hit on it.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:09.17,0:41:11.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}进入了天使都不敢涉足的地方。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Ran in where angels dare to tread.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:11.59,0:41:13.49,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}常常因此惹上麻烦。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Often got themselves in trouble with it.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:13.93,0:41:25.25,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但主要的是他们意识到，灵界就在这里，就在现在，和我们呼吸的气息一样近。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But the main thing was that they realized that the spiritual world is right here, right now, just as close as the breath that we breathe.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:25.25,0:41:28.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果神可以以某种方式如此接近，那么恶魔和魔鬼也可以。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And if God can be that close in some way, so can demons and the devil.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:29.33,0:41:35.15,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}再一次，许多人因为谈论驱魔的可能性而被赶出教会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And again, a lot of them got thrown out of their churches for even talking about the possibility of exorcism.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:35.63,0:41:39.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但他们坚持这一点，因为这是真的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But they hung on to that because it was true.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:39.45,0:41:45.73,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在那方面，他们也恢复了一种更接近天主教的世界观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in that way as well, they had recovered a more Catholic way of looking at the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:46.60,0:41:47.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我可以继续说下去。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I could go on and on.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:47.44,0:41:48.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}还有很多。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There's so much more.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:48.34,0:41:54.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果你曾在这个传统中，然后成为天主教徒，回头\N看，你会开始说，哦，我的，看这些相似之处。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And if you've been in the tradition and then you become Catholic and you look back and you begin saying, oh my, look at all these parallels.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:55.42,0:42:09.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}再一次，如果你是在一个有更热情、表达性敬拜的新教传统中长大的，你知道，人们跪\N下，或者你，当然，越接近天主教礼仪，英国圣公会传统，你在这些方面就越接近。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And again, if you've been raised in a Protestant tradition that does have more exuberant, expressive worship, you know, where people kneel, or you, and of course, the closer you are to Catholic liturgy, Anglican tradition, the closer you are in those ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:09.39,0:42:23.71,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我特别谈论那些受加尔文影响的，有些受路德影响的，如果你所在的教\N会，你知道，你说有一个赞美和敬拜乐队，如他们所称，人们有点摇滚。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But I'm talking about especially those that are influenced by Calvin, some by Luther, that if the church you've been in, you know, you say has a praise and worship band, as they call it, and people kind of rock out.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:23.71,0:42:31.23,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}嗯，他们这样做的唯一原因是因为灵恩运动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, the only reason they do is because of the charismatic movement.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.23,0:42:36.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当我还是个孩子时，我在其中，或者当我年轻时\N，在我皈依后不久，我加入了其中一个乐队。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When I was a kid, I was in it, or when I was young, soon after my conversion, I entered into one of these bands.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:36.37,0:42:38.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我是一支基督教摇滚乐队的主唱。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I was the lead singer in a Christian rock band.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:39.01,0:42:41.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在五旬节教会中，他们很喜欢。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in Pentecostal churches, they loved it.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:41.32,0:42:45.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但天哪，那浸信会教堂不打算让我们进门。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But boy, that Baptist church wasn't about to let us through the door.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:46.10,0:42:50.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你知道，是循道宗或任何路德宗，长老会，不要带着那些东西进来。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You know, it was the Methodists or any of the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, don't you dare come in here with that stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:51.14,0:43:00.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，如今许多主流教会有那种敬拜的特别礼拜，这证明了我所谈论的运动的影响。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so the fact that so many of these mainline churches now have special services with that kind of worship is a testimony to the influence of the movement I'm talking about.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:00.81,0:43:02.77,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但无论如何，让我用这个来总结。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But anyway, let me summarize with this.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:03.79,0:43:23.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我可以从第一手经验中说，我甚至在过去几个小时里和其他一些人谈过这\N个，他们对此表示同意，一旦我和其他像我这样的新教徒进入五旬节圈子\N并开始以这种方式看待世界，许多天主教的做法实际上并不那么奇怪。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I can say from first-hand experience, and I've even talked to some other folks in the last few hours about this, who have agreed about it, that once I and other Protestants like me entered Pentecostal circles and began to see the world this way, the many Catholic practices didn't really seem so strange after all.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:24.15,0:43:27.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}它们以一种以前没有的方式变得有意义。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They made sense in a way that they hadn't before.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:27.59,0:43:44.67,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}无论是奇迹，还是按手，还是用油膏抹，还是跪下，敬拜中的身体姿势，还是驱\N魔，这些和其他方式都有意义，因为我们看待神和世界的整个方式已经改变。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Whether it was miracles, whether it was laying on hands, whether it was anointing with oil, whether it was kneeling, body postures in worship, whether it was exorcism, these and other ways, it made sense because our whole way of seeing God and the world had changed.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:48.67,0:43:51.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}是时候结束了，所以让我总结一下。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's time to close, so let me summarize.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:52.07,0:43:53.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}嗯，还有一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, one more point.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.41,0:43:59.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也许到现在你在想，五旬节派究竟是如何找到回到这些天主教世界观的方法的？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Perhaps by now you're wondering, well, how exactly did Pentecostals find their way back to these Catholic ways of viewing the world?
Dialogue: 0,0:43:59.64,0:44:00.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}嗯，这很简单。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, it's simple.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:01.12,0:44:13.35,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他们阅读圣经，他们没有通过一种我称之为加尔文主义的镜头来阅读，我的意\N思是，我想我们都有或多或少的这种镜头，但是一种“是的，但”的镜头。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}They read the Scripture, and they did not read it through a kind of Calvinist lens that I would call, I mean, and we all have it to one degree or another, I guess, but a yes, but lens.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:13.41,0:44:16.99,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}是的，那是在圣经时代发生的，但现在不是。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Yes, it was done in Bible times, but not now.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:17.37,0:44:19.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当他们只是按字面阅读时，我的意思是，这就是发生在我身上的事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When they just read it for what it was, I mean, that's what happened to me.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:19.95,0:44:25.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有一天晚上，我独自坐在长老会教堂里，阅读《使徒行传》。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I was sitting alone in a Presbyterian church one night, reading the book of Acts.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:25.51,0:44:28.11,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我不知道那是一本煽动性的书。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I didn't know that it was an incendiary tract.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:29.07,0:44:30.41,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我读到了第二章。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I got to the second chapter.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:30.41,0:44:38.22,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我读到圣灵在五旬节那天降临，我放下书，说，主啊，我不知道这是否今天发生。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I read about the Holy Ghost coming down on the day of Pentecost, and I put the book down, and I said, Lord, I don't know if this happens today or not.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.22,0:44:45.89,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我没有那种感觉，你知道，我被告知不会发生，但如果发生，我会坐在这里直到它发生。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}I didn't have that, you know, I've been told it doesn't, but if it does, I'm going to sit right here until it happens.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:48.66,0:44:49.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}然后发生了一些事情。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And something happened.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:50.48,0:45:10.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，我如何从天主教神学的角度理解它，我不确定，但我只是，你知道，那是能够\N说的开始，我放下了这种“那时发生，但现在不”的镜头，一旦我只是阅读圣经，我\N看到人们按手在上面，他们用油膏抹，有奇迹，有驱魔，所有这些都在圣经中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, how I understand it now in terms of Catholic theology, I'm not sure, but I just, you know, that was the beginning of being able to say, I put aside this lens of, it happened then, but not now, and once I just read the Scripture, then I saw that people laid hands on it, they anointed it with oil, there were miracles, there were exorcisms, all these things were right there in Scripture.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:11.29,0:45:13.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}现在，这就是总结。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, here's the summary.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:13.84,0:45:32.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在我的一生中，在我们大多数人的一生中，数百万新教基督徒经\N历了某种形式的五旬节经历，通过参与五旬节或灵恩宗教文化，\N改变了他们看待神和世界的方式，达到了对现实更圣事的理解。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Within my lifetime, the lifetime of most of us, millions of Protestant Christians have had some form of Pentecostal experience that has transformed their way of viewing God and the world through their participation in Pentecostal or Charismatic religious culture that come to a more sacramental understanding of reality.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:32.99,0:45:41.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}为什么对于像我们这样的人来说，了解这一点特\N别重要，无论是已经或正在进入天主教会的人？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Why is this especially important to know for folks like ourselves who either have been Why is this especially important to know for folks like ourselves who either have made or are now making the journey into the Catholic Church?
Dialogue: 0,0:45:41.01,0:45:42.73,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}嗯，有几个原因，我们将以此结束。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, for several reasons, and we'll end with this.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:42.73,0:45:57.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}首先，这很重要，因为五旬节经历为像我这样的非圣事传统的许多信徒\N准备了道路，使他们变得更圣事，最终成为天主教徒，真正进入教会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}First, it's important because the Pentecostal experience has prepared the way for many believers like myself from non-sacramental traditions to become more sacramental, to become, and then eventually to become Catholic, to actually enter the Church.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:57.34,0:46:05.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们需要意识到这个过程，以便我们可以帮助那些正在经历它的人找到回家的路。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We need to be aware of this process so that we can help people who are in the middle of it, who are experiencing it, to find their way home to the Church.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:05.80,0:46:09.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们可以帮助他们连接点，让他们看到，你相信这个吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We can help connect the dots for them to see, you believe in this?
Dialogue: 0,0:46:09.20,0:46:10.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}嗯，天主教会也是如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Well, so does the Catholic Church.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:10.66,0:46:12.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}你看，你正朝这个方向走。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}You see, you're headed this way.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:12.62,0:46:30.61,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}其次，这很重要，因为即使不是所有五旬节派和灵恩派都进入了天主教会，五旬\N节经历仍然让他们看到了某些天主教传统一直肯定、从未放弃的属灵圣事现实。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Second, it's important because even though not all Pentecostals and Charismatics make their way into the Catholic Church, the Pentecostal experience has nevertheless opened their eyes to certain spiritual sacramental realities that the Catholic tradition as a whole has always affirmed, has never given up on.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:30.61,0:46:38.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}通过这样做，五旬节运动在根本层面上建立了共同经验的普世桥梁。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In doing so, the Pentecostal movement has built ecumenical bridges of common experience at a fundamental level.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:38.14,0:46:41.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们需要肯定这些桥梁并加以利用。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We need to affirm those bridges and make use of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:41.82,0:46:50.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}最后，这很重要，因为灵恩经历使许多天主教徒自己恢复了一种更彻底的圣事世界观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Finally, it's important because the Charismatic experience has restored to many Catholics themselves a more thoroughly sacramental way of viewing the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:50.97,0:47:04.97,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我认识的许多参与过这一运动的天主教徒承认，在现代世俗文化的\N影响下，他们失去了某种圣事视角，这种文化否认奇迹和奥秘。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Many of the Catholics I know who have participated in this movement confess that before they had lost something of the sacramental perspective under the influence of our modern secular culture that denied both miracle and mystery.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:05.95,0:47:13.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}毫无疑问，正如我之前所说，五旬节和灵恩运动有时带来了超出其份额的问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}No doubt, as I've said before, the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements have at times brought in their wake more than their share of problems.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:13.80,0:47:21.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}古怪的行为和教义，属灵的天真，分裂，智力的浅薄，你只需打开电视布道者就能看到。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Eccentric behavior and teachings, spiritual naivete, divisiveness, intellectual shallowness, all you have to do is turn on the TV preachers to see it.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:22.34,0:47:47.79,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}然而，在我们简要考察的所有方式中，我认为我们找到了充分的证据，证明五\N旬节经历为各种基督徒重新捕捉了神即时临在和力量的强烈和持久的感觉，神\N就在这里，现在，并意识到自然界通过神的恩典可以成为超自然的载体。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Nevertheless, in all the ways we've briefly examined, I think we find ample evidence that the Pentecostal experience has recaptured for Christians of all kinds a strong and abiding sense of God's immediate presence and power, that God is here and now, and an awareness that the natural, by God's grace, can become a vehicle of the supernatural.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:48.37,0:47:57.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}通过这样做，这一运动使数百万人更接近天主教信仰，我们应该为此真诚地感谢神。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In doing so, this movement has brought millions closer to the Catholic faith, and we should be really grateful to God for that.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:57.87,0:47:57.99,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}谢谢你，愿神祝福你。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Thank you, and God bless you.