欢迎大家！ Welcome everybody!
今天我们邀请到了一位皈依公教会的人，他现在是一 位公教会的YouTuber，你们可能见过他。 Today we are joined by a convert to Catholicism who now is a Catholic YouTuber, who you may have seen.
希望你们曾经看过他。 Hopefully, you've seen him.
Brayden Cook，今天和我们在一起。 Brayden Cook, the catechumen, is here with us today.
非常感谢你，Brayden，来到我们节目。 So thank you so much, Brayden, for coming on.
这将会是一个精彩的节目。 This is going to be a great show.
嘿，谢谢你邀请我，Cameron。 Hey, thanks for having me, Cameron.
我们一直想做一个视频，老兄，我很兴奋终于能做一个了。 We've been meaning to do a video for so long, man, and I'm hyped to finally do one.
孩子们，我来告诉你们我们有什么。 I'll tell you what we got, kids.
所以你会意识到，你的时间随着你拥有的越多而不断减少， 这是一件美好的事情，美好的事情，但它让事情变得困难。 And so you realize that your time just keeps on diminishing the more that you have, and it's a beautiful thing, beautiful thing, but it makes it tough.
所以这很不错，老兄。 So good deal, man.
嗯，我非常兴奋。 Well, I am super excited.
我实际上还没有真正听过你的皈依故事，我总是喜欢做这些采访，当我不 知道会发生什么时，因为我所有的反应，一切，都是完全、完全真实的。 I actually have not really heard your conversion story yet, and I always love doing these interviews when I don't know what to expect because all my reactions, everything, is totally, totally authentic.
所以是的，我认为你的故事，虽然——我假设它可能与许多其他人相当相似。 So yeah, I think that your story, though, is—I'm assuming it's probably fairly similar to a lot of other people.
我认为，对传统宗教，特别是公教的兴趣正在激增， 所以我认为你的故事可能与成千上万的人非常相似。 There's this surge in interest, I think, in the traditional religions, especially Catholicism, and so I think that your story is probably very similar to tens of thousands of people out there.
所以这是我认为你如此成功的原因之一，因为你与人 们产生共鸣，因为你的故事是整个一代人的故事。 So that's one of the reasons I think you're having so much success is that you just resonate with people because your story is the story of an entire generation.
所以无论如何，让我们——我想问你在宗教方面是从哪里开始的，对吧？ So anyway, let's just—I want to ask you where you started with religion, right?
因为显然你并不是一直都是公教徒，对吧？ Because obviously you weren't always Catholic, right?
有没有什么事情让你觉得——你有没有感觉过公教会就是错的？ What was something where you're like—did you ever have a feeling like the Catholic Church is just wrong?
这就是错的，我不能成为其中的一部分？ This is just wrong, and I can't be a part of it?
你有没有以这种方式开始？ Did you ever start off in that way?
是的，所以在成长过程中，我来自浸信会，无宗派，有点像南方浸信会，在那里有点流动。 Yeah, so growing up, I come from the Baptist, non-denominational, kind of Southern Baptist, kind of moving around there.
顺便说一下，我喜欢南方浸信会的人。 I love Southern Baptists, by the way.
他们只是很棒的人。 They're just wonderful people.
我说我喜欢南方浸信会的人，他们都很棒。 I said I love Southern Baptists; they're all wonderful.
这就是为什么我和你相处得很好。 That's why I get along with you.
我遇到的每一个南方浸信会的人都很令人愉快。 Every Southern Baptist I've ever met has been a delight.
我喜欢他们。 I've loved them.
是的。 Yes.
嗯，是的，他们确实如此。 Well, yeah, they definitely are.
他们可以非常非常好，非常友好。 They can be very, very nice and friendly.
你知道，我们有聚餐，我们掌握了这一点。 You know, we got the potlucks; we got that down.
那就像是我们的第三个圣事，对吧？ That was like our third sacrament, right?
我们只有两个：我们有洗礼、圣餐，然后如果我们必须有第三个，那绝对是聚餐。 We only have two: we have baptism, Eucharist, and then if we had to have a third one, it's definitely potluck.
但是，是的，我在那个传统中长大，我上的是卫斯理宗基督教学校。 But yeah, I grew up in that tradition, and I went to a Wesleyan Christian school growing up.
所以那是，我的意思是，它有点类似于浸信会神学，减去一些其他的东西。 And so that's, I mean, it's sort of similar to like Baptist theology, minus some of the other things.
但他们对公教有着非常相似的看法，这就像一场辩论： 不是，好的，他们在哪里错了或者他们错到什么程度？ But they had a very similar perspective on Catholicism, and that's like the debate: it's not, okay, where are they wrong or how wrong are they?
它就像，他们是基督徒还是不是？ It's like, are they Christian or are they not?
这是我们需要传福音的一大群人，还是我们可以与他们合作，把人们带到基督的福音中？ Is this a big pool of people we need to evangelize, or can we cooperate with them in bringing people to the Gospel of Christ?
这就是我成长过程中的辩论。 And that was the debate growing up.
而且在大多数情况下，课程，即使在我们的——我们在这个卫斯理宗基督教学校有 圣经课——在我的高中圣经课上，我们被教导，是的，所以耶和华见证人是邪教， 摩门教是邪教，公教徒，他们在一个邪教中，他们不是真正的基督徒，对吧？ And for the most part, the curriculum, even in like our—we had Bible classes at this Wesleyan Christian school—and in my high school Bible classes, we were taught, yeah, so Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult, Mormons are a cult, Catholics, they're in a cult; they're not really Christian, right?
他们相信他们可以赚取救恩，他们崇拜马利亚，他们崇拜死人，他们向他们 祈祷，他们实践招魂术，他们删除了第二条诫命，所有那种东西，对吧？ They believe they can earn their salvation, they worship Mary, they worship dead people, they pray to them, they practice necromancy, they remove the Second Commandment, all that sort of stuff, right?
它有点像与这些其他邪教般的宗教混在一起，那就是我对公教的接触。 It's kind of like jumbled in with a bunch of these other cult-like religions, and that was my exposure to Catholicism.
我没有真正质疑它，因为，你知道，它呈现给你的方式，就像，我为什么要认真对待呢？ And I did not really question it because, you know, the way that it's presented to you, it's like, why would I want to take that seriously?
你知道，我不想认真对待公教。 You know, I did not want to take Catholicism seriously.
我记得在成长过程中只有一个公教徒朋友，实际上他不是公教徒，他 还没有接受坚振，但他正在去公教会的教堂，现在他是路德宗信徒。 I remember growing up having only one Catholic friend, and really he wasn't Catholic; he wasn't confirmed yet, but he was going to a Catholic church, and now he's Lutheran.
我以前在我的频道上有他，但我记得作为一个浸信会信徒与他辩论。 I've had him on my channel before, but I remember debating with him as a Baptist.
我就像，所以你认为，你知道，人们只是被水淋，他们就得救了？ I'm like, so you think that, you know, people just like get water on them, they're saved?
洗礼对救恩必要是怎么回事？ What's the deal with baptism being necessary for salvation?
所以你认为马利亚救了自己，因为她从未犯过罪？ So you think Mary saved herself because she's never committed a sin?
所以接触真正的公教和有具体的圣经理由和教父理 由来接受和相信某些教义，我没有接触到，对吧？ So the exposure to authentic Catholicism and having concrete biblical reasons and patristic reasons for accepting and believing certain doctrines, I wasn't exposed to that, right?
所以，是的，你被引导不认真对待公教，真的你只是开始同情公教徒。 And so, yeah, you are led to not take Catholicism seriously, and really you just start pitying Catholics.
就像，天啊，他们的教会里有太多人为的传统， 他们认为教宗是神，教宗无误又是怎么回事？ Like, man, there's just so many man-made traditions that are in their church, and they think the Pope is God, and what's the thing with papal infallibility?
他们一定认为教宗永远不会说错或做错任何事，所以那只 是如此奇怪和怪异，那很蠢，所以我要嘲笑它，对吧？ They must think that the Pope can never say or do anything wrong, so that's just so bizarre and weird, and that's dumb, so I'm going to make fun of it, right?
是的，我认为那基本上就是我成长的样子。 Yeah, I think that was me growing up pretty much.
这很真实，人们——他们如此坚决地反对他们认为的公教是什么。 That's so true that people are – they're so adamantly opposed to what they think Catholicism is.
是的。 Yeah.
就像一旦你检查这些主张，你会想，哦，这实际上比我想象的要合理一点。 Like once you examine the claims, it'll be like, Oh, that's actually a little more reasonable than I thought.
所以，在你成长过程中，你有没有到过这样一个点，如果有人试图向你解释这个 ，并且像，实际上，嗯，你知道，这是圣依纳爵所说的，这是与旧约的联系，这 是圣——你就像经历过的，并且一步一步地引导你，你有没有到过你认为你会像 ，不，就像我根本不愿意接受它，我现在甚至不愿意被传福音或听这个？ So, were you growing up, were you ever at a point where if somebody would have tried to explain this to you and be like, Actually, well, you know, this is what St. Ignatius says, this is the connection from the Old Testament, this is what St. you're like gone through, and just walk you through step by step, were you ever at a point where you think you would have been like, Nah, like I'm not even open to it, I'm not even willing to be evangelized or to hear this right now?
你曾经到过那样的点吗？ Were you ever at a point like that?
是的。 Yes.
在我所处的圈子里，我们没有接触到早期基督教著作。 In the circle I was in, we were not exposed to early Christian writings.
我知道奥古斯丁的名字，我不是加尔文主义者，但我将那个名字与加尔 文主义联系起来，原因很明显，因为，你知道，加尔文主义者喜欢抓住 圣奥古斯丁说的特定事情，扭曲它们以适应他们的范式，无论如何。 I knew the name Augustine, and I wasn't a Calvinist, but I associated that name with Calvinism for obvious reasons, because, you know, Calvinists love latching on to particular things St. Augustine says, twisting them to fit their paradigm, whatever.
所以我听说过奥古斯丁的名字，然后你听说路德的名字，而中间 的所有其他事情，就像是模糊的，朦胧的，或者根本不存在的。 And so I heard the name Augustine, and then you hear the name Martin Luther, and like everything else in between, there is like blurry, fuzzy, or just non-existent.
所以如果有人提到安提阿的圣依纳爵，他谈到你如何像顺服神一样顺服主教 ，你需要主教、长老、执事，如果你没有主教，你就不是教会的一部分，以 及所有关于圣餐和类似事情的这些东西，如果我曾经听到有人说那些，我就 像，那不是圣经，所以我为什么要关心一些生活在二世纪的随机人？ So if someone were to bring up St. Ignatius of Antioch, where he talks about how you submit to the bishop as you would to God, and you need a bishop, presbyter, deacon, and if you don't have a bishop, you're not a part of the Church, and all these things about the Eucharist and things like that, if I had ever heard anyone say that, I'm like, That's not the Bible, so why do I care about some random dude who lived in the second century?
就像，显然教会在某个时候偏离了轨道，因为当你到达路德时，他们正在 出售救恩，他们正在出售宽恕，那就是我认为我的公告是什么，对吧？ Like, obviously the Church went off the rails at some point, because by the time you get to Martin Luther, they're selling salvation, they're selling forgiveness, and that's what I thought my bulletins is, right?
所以，是的，这只是我认为公教是什么，教会历史是什么的一种扭曲、偏斜的观点，对吧？ And so, yeah, it's just such a warped, skewed perspective of what I thought Catholicism was, Church history was, right?
是的，确实没有太多的研究，至少从浸信会传统中， 对那些特定的个人，特别是当我是无宗派的时候。 And yeah, there never really was much study, at least from the Baptist tradition, into those particular individuals, especially when I was non-denominational.
我在这个传统中成长的大部分时间是从无宗派的 角度来看的，所以它甚至比南方浸信会更保守。 The majority of my upbringing in this tradition was like from the non-denominational perspective, so it's even like more like dialed back than the Southern Baptist.
就像，我们没有主日学，我们有你可以加入的小组，但没有教理。 Like, we didn't have Sunday schools; we had small groups that you could join, but there's no catechism.
没有，像，我们在我们的网站上有几页显示这是我们所相信的，对吧？ There's no, like, we have like a few pages on our website showing this is what we believe, right?
但没有，像，门徒训练课程或像教理讲授儿童，说这是我们作为一个教 会所相信的，并且像系统地阐述出来，这就是为什么我们不相信这个。 But there was no, like, discipleship courses or like catechizing children, saying this is what we believe as a Church, and like laying it out systematically, and this is why we don't believe this.
它真的就像，好的，你周日出现，听讲道，然后我们在周三晚上为 青年人举办一堆课外活动，然后我们会有像男性聚会之类的活动。 It was really just like, Okay, you show up on Sunday, listen to the sermon, and then we have a bunch of extracurricular activities for the youth on Wednesday night, and then we'll have like men's get-togethers and stuff.
就像，它更像是以社区为中心的，像关系性的，你知道，那是好的。 Like, it's more like the community-centered, like relational, which, you know, that's good.
我感觉很多公教会的教堂需要更多地关注这一点，对吧？ I feel like a lot of Catholic churches need to focus on that a little bit more, right?
所以有优点和缺点，但就像对教理讲授没有真正的深度，或 者总的来说对信仰基础是什么没有真正的教理或教理讲授。 So there's strengths and weaknesses, but it's like there is no real depth to the catechizing or really no catechism or catechizing in general of what the basics of the faith were.
如果有人要求我解释三位一体，我可能会以一种超级古怪、异端的方式解释它。 If someone asked me to explain the Trinity, I would probably have explained it in a super wacky, heretical way.
我记得在高中，我为我的高年级课程写了一篇论文，我被允许 做一些宗教性的事情，所以我就像，好的，我要写关于三位一 体的内容，我要尝试用一个以前没有人听过的比喻来解释它。 I remember in high school, I wrote a paper for my senior one of my courses, and I was allowed to do something religious, and so I'm like, Okay, I'm going to write about the Trinity, and I'm going to like try and explain it using an analogy that no one's heard of before.
好吧，猜猜怎么了？ Well, guess what?
我冒出了像形态论、三神论、部分论，以及所有不同的异端一起，所以 这是一个如此好的解释，以至于我在四个不同的方面都像是一个异端。 I emerged like modalism, tritheism, partialism, and like all the different heresies together, so it was such a good explanation that I was like a heretic on four different accounts.
但是，你知道，你没有被教导那个。 But, you know, you're not taught that.
你没有被教导什么是形态论。 You're not taught what modalism is.
你真的没有被教导任何那些东西。 You're not taught any of that, really.
现在，如果你接触到更多的传统新教教派，他们有那种东西，对吧？ Now, if you get to like more of the traditional Protestant denominations, they have that sort of stuff, right?
他们有更多的公教化，更多地强调教会历史。 They have more Catholicizing on them, more emphasis on Church history.
但实际上，当涉及到教会历史，我确信我们稍后会谈到 这一点，从公教的角度来看，我们不像是外人向内看。 But really, when it comes to Church history, and I'm sure we're going to get to this later, it's like from the Catholic perspective, we're not like outsiders looking in.
就像我们回顾，我们必须声称那段历史，因为我们的教会在每个时代都存在。 It's like we look back, and we have to claim that history because our Church has existed in every age.
所以我们有一些外部的事情，像新教教派可能能够指出那是一个分歧点或摩擦点 ，我们不能只是像，哦，是的，没关系，因为我们可以，你知道，把它抹掉。 And so we have things that outside, like the Protestant denominations might be able to point to that as a point of disagreement or friction, and we can't just be like, Oh yeah, it's fine, because we could just, you know, swipe it off.
我们可以忽略那个，因为那是我们的教会。 We can just ignore that because that is our Church.
那就是教会，对吧？ That is the Church, right?
所以我们必须以某种方式认同每个时代的教会，这是一件美好的事情， 但也可能是一件非常混乱的事情，因为教会是由人类组成的，对吧？ And so we have to identify in some way with the Church in every age, and it's a beautiful thing, but it can also be a very messy thing because the Church is composed of human beings, right?
但是，按照天意，作为公教徒，我们相信神已经在教会中保存了 2000年的信仰，它已经绽放成为非常美好的东西，对吧？ But providentially, God, now we believe as Catholics, has preserved the faith in the Church for 2000 years, and it's blossomed to be something very beautiful, right?
所以，是的，抱歉，我说得太多了。 And so, yeah, sorry, I'm rambling on.
不，不，这很好。 No, no, this is good.
是的，所以是的，我认为这也是新教徒理解错误的一点，听起来你也有这种误 解，认为教宗无误意味着教宗无罪或者教宗在某种程度上是完美的，对吧？ Yeah, so yeah, I think that's one thing too Protestants get wrong, and it sounds like you had this misconception too about papal infallibility meaning papal impeccability or that the Pope is somehow perfect, right?
而新教对马太福音16章的解释说，哦，那磐石是彼 得的信心，嗯，那实际上加强了教宗无误的立场。 And the Protestant interpretation of Matthew 16 saying, Oh, the rock is Peter's faith, well, that actually strengthens the position of papal infallibility.
很明显，彼得本人并不是无误的，因为他会犯罪；他 停止做他应该做的事，保罗不得不指出他的错误。 It's quite obvious Peter in himself is not infallible insofar as he sins; he stops doing what he's supposed to be doing, and Paul has to call him out.
但彼得的信心，彼得信心的磐石，没有失败。 But Peter's faith, the rock of Peter's faith, does not fail.
彼得在犯罪，但他的信心是坚固的。 Peter is sinning, but his faith is solid.
他正确地教导着信仰。 He's teaching the faith correctly.
你提出这一点真是美妙。 That's beautiful that you bring that up.
但我必须知道，好的，听起来你已经很深入了。 But I've got to know, okay, so it sounds like you're pretty in deep.
你有一圈朋友，听起来，他们都是你的回音板，有着相同的心态。 You've got a circle of friends, it sounds like, that are all kind of soundboards for you, same mentality.
那么到底是什么让你想，嗯，也许公教不是敌基督，或者也许公教不是这个奇怪的邪教？ So what the heck made you go, Well, maybe Catholicism is not the Antichrist, or maybe Catholicism is not this weird cult?
是什么让你开始睁开眼睛？ What was the foot in the door that kind of opened your eyes?
因为一定有什么原因，对吧？ Because there's got to be something, right?
是的，所以这有点难。 Yeah, so it's kind of tough.
我在高中时去了一次宣教旅行，就像许多人在去第三世界国家或有很 多贫困和挣扎的国家的宣教旅行中所经历的那样，你去那里服务。 I went on a mission trip in high school, and as many people experience on mission trips to third world countries or countries that have a lot of poverty and are struggling, you go and you serve.
我们去了危地马拉，就像很多人在宣教旅行中经历的那样，他 们感到这种吸引力或呼召，去与神建立更深的关系和联系。 We went to Guatemala, and as a lot of people experience when they go on mission trips, they feel this draw or calling towards a deeper relationship and connection with God.
我在高中时去危地马拉的这次宣教旅行中肯定感受 到了这一点，这促使我更认真地对待我的信仰。 I definitely felt that whenever I went to Guatemala on this mission trip in high school, and that prompted me to take my faith more seriously.
这也促使我考虑以牧职的身份提供帮助，所以我开始辨别我是否应 该以某种身份成为一名牧师，或者成为某种主日学文学作家之类的 ，因为我看到了那里的需要，对吧，至少在我的无宗派传统中。 It also prompted me to consider helping out in a ministerial capacity, so I started discerning whether I ought to become a pastor in some capacity or become some sort of like Sunday school literature writer or whatever, because I saw a need there, right, in at least my non-denominational tradition.
这最终导致我专门为神学而上大学。 That led me ultimately to going to college specifically for theology.
我在俄克拉荷马州的巴特尔斯维尔长大，在塔尔萨有一所叫做奥拉尔·罗伯茨大学的学院。 I grew up in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, and there is a college in Tulsa called Oral Roberts University.
如果你听说过奥拉尔·罗伯茨这个名字，当时我没有听说过，但那是一个巨大的红旗。 If you've ever heard of the name Oral Roberts, I hadn't at the time, but that is a huge red flag.
那就像是背景中的一个巨大警钟：奥拉尔·罗伯茨，成功神学。 That is like a huge alarm bell in the background: Oral Roberts, prosperity gospel.
这个家伙，如果你不知道他是谁，而你知道肯尼斯·科普兰 是谁，肯尼斯·科普兰的个人导师就是奥拉尔·罗伯茨。 This dude, if you don't know who this is, and you know who Kenneth Copeland is, Kenneth Copeland's personal mentor was Oral Roberts.
奥拉尔·罗伯茨开创了现在的肯尼斯·科普兰和乔尔·奥斯汀的事工。 Oral Roberts started what Kenneth Copeland is now, and Joel Osteen is now.
肯尼斯·科普兰和乔尔·奥斯汀就像是奥拉尔·罗伯茨大学的校友，这太疯狂了。 Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen are like alumni of Oral Roberts University, which is insane.
所以我不知道那是什么。 So I had no idea what that was.
我知道你不应该喜欢肯尼斯·科普兰和乔尔·奥斯汀，但你对那类 事情了解不多，或者至少我不了解。但我最终去了那里，当我去那 里时，我在一个——我们在那里的第一年或学期寻找一个教会。 I knew you're not supposed to like Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen, but you don't know that much about that sort of stuff, or at least I didn't. But I ended up going there, and as I go there, I get hired at a—we're looking for a church for the first year or semester that we're there.
我们有点像是在无宗派教会间跳转。 We're kind of church hopping non-denominational churches.
你在这个时候已经结婚了吗？ Are you married at this point?
不，我们没有。 No, we're not.
抱歉，「我们」是指谁？ Sorry, who's we?
我完全忘记说了，好的，谢谢你让我慢下来。 I totally forgot to say, okay, thanks for slowing me down.
我和我的妻子从中学起就认识对方。 My wife and I have known each other ever since middle school.
我们一起度过了高中，我们一起去了同一所大学 ，我们在高中生涯结束进入大学时开始约会。 We went through high school together, we went to the same college together, and we started dating at the end of our high school career going into college.
所以我们一起去了同一所大学。 And so we go to the same college together.
好的，很酷。 Okay, cool.
你必须——我不想打断你——但你必须告诉我们你的 妻子对你突然成为公教徒的反应，当那是被诅咒的。 And you'll have to—I don't want to cut you off—but you'll have to tell us how your wife reacted to you becoming Catholic all of a sudden when that's anathema.
我们必须谈到那个，但继续。 We have to get there, but continue.
是的，千分之千。 Yes, a thousand percent.
所以，我去了ORU。我加入了这个浸信会教会， 他们有一个青年事工职位需要临时填补，对吧？ So, I go to ORU. I joined this Baptist church, and they have a youth ministry position to fill interim, right?
所以这不会是一个全职的事情，但它可能会变成一个全职的事情。 And so it wouldn't be like a full-time thing, but it could turn into a full-time thing.
我就像，哦，我完全可以在ORU期间在这里服务。而 且，你知道，我有点像浸信会，无宗派的环境长大。 I'm like, Oh, I could totally serve here while I'm at ORU. And, you know, I grew up kind of Baptist, non-denominational.
它能有多大不同？ How different could it be?
他们非常浸信会，这真的开始在我心中巩固我的浸信会信念。 They were pretty Baptist, and that really started solidifying in me my Baptist convictions.
我开始变得超级，超级，超级，超级浸信会，以至于我回 头看我的无宗派教会，我就像，哦，我不再习惯这个了。 I started to become super, super, super, super Baptist, so much so that I looked back at my non-denominational church, and I'm like, Oh, I am not used to this anymore.
我需要去一些传统的南方浸信会教会，对吧？ I need to go to some traditional Southern Baptist church, right?
所以，是的，我加入了教会。 And so, yeah, I joined the church.
他们聘请我作为他们的临时青年事工人员。 They hired me on as their interim youth minister.
我没有正式被按立，但那是我在那里填补的职位。 I wasn't officially ordained, but that's the capacity that I filled there.
我在ORU开始变得超级，超级浸信会，我开始更深入地思考神学。 I started becoming super, super Baptist at ORU, and I started thinking more deeply about theology.
我正在上我的神学课程，我就像，好的，你知道吗？ I'm taking my theology courses, and I'm like, Okay, you know what?
考虑到他们在ORU所教授的内容，它仍然与成功神学，某种超级灵恩神学，说方 言，诸如此类的东西一致，现在我有了这些浸信会信念，我可能需要换大学了。 I've probably got to move universities now that I have these Baptist convictions, given the things that they were teaching at ORU, which still aligned with like the prosperity gospel, with kind of super charismatic theology, speaking in tongues, that sort of stuff.
那种东西让我非常反感，比如当代敬拜音乐。 And that like turned me off super bad from that sort of stuff, like contemporary worship music.
我开始远离那些东西。 I started like getting away from that.
我就像，我无法接受这个。 I'm like, I cannot handle this.
所以在这段时间里，你知道，当时我的女朋友茉莉开始变得更加认真，开始思 考我们的共同未来，开始有这种感觉，我们可能会在大学结束前订婚和结婚。 And so during this time, you know, my then-girlfriend Jasmine at the time started to get more serious, started to think about our future together, started having this feeling that we're probably going to get engaged and married before college ends.
我们决定转到OBU，我们就像，你知道吗？ And we decide to make the switch to OBU, and we're like, You know what?
OBU有已婚学生宿舍。 OBU has married dormitories.
ORU没有。 ORU did not.
我们是浸信会信徒。 We are Baptist.
我可能会成为一名浸信会牧师。 I'm probably going to become a Baptist minister.
ORU不会为我准备那个，对吧？ ORU is not going to prepare me for that, right?
如果我去浸信会神学院，而我已经从OBU毕业， 他们更有可能接受我，我也会得到折扣，对吧？ And if I go to a Baptist seminary and I have graduated from OBU, they're more likely to accept me, and I'll also get a discount, right?
所以所有这些事情，我们就像，我们要去OBU 。在这整个辨别过程中，好的，我们要转学吗？ So all these things, we're like, We're going to go to OBU. And throughout this discernment of, Okay, are we going to switch?
我们要结婚吗？ Are we going to get married?
我们什么时候要结婚？ When are we going to get married?
你知道，所有这些事情，我有几门课，即我的系统神学课和 护教学课，开始让我接触到基督教会的这个更广泛的历史。 you know, all this stuff, I have a few classes, namely my systematic theology class and my apologetics class, that begin to expose me to this wider history of the Christian church.
我对此非常着迷。 And I was so fascinated with this.
我从未听说过这些人，比如圣亚他拿修，圣依勒内，就像所有这 些早期的人，但甚至，你知道，贯穿尼西亚和后尼西亚时期。 I had never heard of these individuals like St. Athanasius, St. Irenaeus, like all these early people, but even, you know, throughout the Nicene and post-Nicene era.
所以你开始学习三位一体神学，基督论，我对这 些人物非常感兴趣，因为我们有这些教科书。 And so you start learning about Trinitarian theology, Christology, and I'm just getting so interested in these individuals because we have these textbooks.
我们有，它叫做，让我看看，它在哪里？ We have, it's called, let me see, where is it?
这是我们使用的教科书，好吗？ This is the textbook that we used, okay?
阿利斯特·麦格拉思的《基督教神学》，好吗？ Christian Theology by Alistair McGrath, okay?
而且，你知道，这里有一些教父的摘录，但实际上它只是像对基督教历史发展的总结。 And, you know, there's some excerpts from the Church Fathers in here, but really it was just like a summary of like developments throughout Christian history.
我就像，我想要更多。 I'm like, I want more.
我需要更多这样的内容。 I need more of this.
同时，我想是在同一学期，也许是下一学期，我在这 个基督教护教学课程中，我的教授是一位公教徒。 And at the same time, I think it was the same semester, maybe the next semester, I am in this Christian apologetics course, and my professor's a Catholic.
这是一所跨宗派的大学。 This is an interdenominational university.
教授是公教徒？ The professor's a Catholic?
他是怎么得到那份工作的？ How did he get that job?
是的，是的，我就像，我从未，我想，我就像，天啊，你很聪明。 Yeah, yeah, I was like, I'd never, I thought, I was like, Man, you're smart.
你怎么能是公教徒？ How can you be a Catholic?
那太奇怪了。 That's so weird.
我可能非常傲慢。 I can be very arrogant.
我可能非常傲慢。 I could have been very arrogant.
但是，是的，公教徒，东正教。 But yeah, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox.
我的解经学教授是东正教徒。 My hermeneutics professor was an Eastern Orthodox.
有一些无宗派的，卫理公会的，以及所有这些其他人在教我所有的神学知识。 There's a few non-denominational, Methodists, and all these other people who are teaching me all my theology stuff.
在我的护教学课程中，当我们学习如何捍卫基督教的基本核心教 义时，当我们想到基督教会的核心教义时，你自然会想到什么？ And in my apologetics course, as we're learning to defend the basically just core teachings of Christianity, what do you naturally think of when we think of the core teachings of the Christian church?
嗯，信经，对吧？ Well, the creeds, right?
我们课程的一部分是学习尼西亚信经。 And part of our curriculum was learning the Nicene Creed.
我就像，这个尼西亚信经到底是什么东西？ I'm like, What the heck is this Nicene Creed thing?
我以前从未听说过尼西亚信经。 I had never heard of a Nicene Creed before.
我就像，这一定是某种奇怪的小众，超级古老的，像是没人再说的信经。 I'm like, This must be some weird niche, super old, like creed that no one says anymore.
嗯，令我惊讶的是，大多数人并不是每个星期日都诵读信经，对吧？ Well, to my surprise, the majority of people don't say the creed every Sunday, right?
所以这就像，世界上怎么回事？ And so it's just like, What in the world?
就像，这是什么？ Like, what is this?
我以前从未听说过信经。 I've never heard of the creed before.
而且，那就像是你在孩子们成长过程中教他们的最基本的事 情之一，就是尼西亚信经或使徒信经，或者最好两者都有。 And like, that's like one of the most fundamental things that you teach your kids when they're growing up is the Nicene or Apostles' Creed, or both hopefully.
而且，你知道，研读这个信经真的很有趣。 And, you know, it's just so interesting going through this creed.
所以我想这大约是在圣诞节期间，我开始喜欢在I nstagram上关注那些发布教父言论的人。 And so I think this was around like Christmastime, and I'm like, I'm starting to like follow things on Instagram where people are posting like quotations from the Church Fathers.
我就像，天啊，这些人太有趣了。 I'm like, Man, these guys are so interesting.
就像，我想读更多。 Like, I want to read more.
我看到人们在将临期阅读亚他拿修关于道成肉身的著作。 And I see people are doing an Advent reading of St. Athanasius on the Incarnation.
我就像，好的，这将是我第一次阅读教父的著作。 I'm like, Okay, this is going to be my first thing that I read from the Church Fathers.
我在将临期/圣诞节期间阅读了它，我就像，哇，这个人太棒了。 And I read it for Advent slash Christmas, and I'm just like, Wow, this dude is awesome.
但他听起来不像浸信会信徒。 But he doesn't sound like a Baptist.
他听起来不像浸信会信徒。 He doesn't sound like a Baptist.
他的基督论是浸信会的，对吧？ His Christology is Baptist, right?
因为基督论是所有基督教派或其他派别共有的，但 在很多这些事情上，他听起来不像浸信会信徒。 Because Christology is common to all Christian denominations or whatever, but he doesn't sound like a Baptist in a lot of these things.
如果我没记错的话，他以救恩的方式谈论洗礼。 If I recall correctly, he speaks about baptism in a salvific way.
我很久没有读它了，因为从那以后我读了很多其他的东西。 I haven't read it in a long time because I've read a lot of other things since then.
我就像，天啊，这有点奇怪。 I'm like, Man, this is kind of weird.
也许我应该研究一些其他的教父。 Maybe I should look into some other Church Fathers.
对我来说，至少我的第一印象是，好的，这个人听起来不像浸信会信徒。 And to me, at least my first impression is like, Okay, this guy doesn't sound Baptist.
但如果我必须说，他听起来像什么？ But if I had to say, What does he sound like?
嗯，不是卫斯理宗的，不是卫理公会的，不是路德宗的，也许是圣公会的。 Well, not Wesleyan, not Methodist, not Lutheran, maybe Anglican.
但我只是有点像在回避说这个人完全是个公教徒。 But I'm just kind of like trying to shy away from saying this guy is totally a Catholic.
我试图说，不，他不必是公教徒。 I'm trying to say, No, he doesn't have to be a Catholic.
你知道，那里仍然有一些回旋的余地。 You know, there's still some wiggle room there.
你知道，圣公会和公教会基本上是同一回事，或者在某种程度上可以是。 You know, Anglicans and Catholics are basically the same thing, or they can be in a way.
在什么时候，你的态度是你愿意改变宗教，但你就是特别不想成为公教徒？ At what point was your kind of disposition like you were open to switching religions, but you just specifically didn't want to be Catholic?
你是处于那种状态，还是你就像，不，我坚定地要做浸信会信徒？ Was that kind of where you were at, or were you like, No, I'm set on Baptist?
所以，我的态度大多是可以的。 So, my disposition was mostly okay.
无论这引导我到哪里，我都需要知道真相，所以我需要跟随真相的指引。 Wherever this leads me, I need to know the truth, so I need to go wherever the truth leads me.
但我没有改变我的任何计划。 But I wasn't changing any of my plans.
我打算在一两年内去一所浸信会大学，我要在那里获得学位。 I was going to a Baptist university in a year or two, and I was going to get my degree there.
我们要结婚，我要成为一名浸信会牧师，我真的没有期望有太多变化。 We're going to get married; I'm going to become a Baptist minister, and I wasn't really expecting much to change.
你知道，我就像，你知道吗？ You know, I was like, you know what?
浸信会信徒可以非常灵活。 Baptists can be pretty flexible.
作为一个浸信会信徒，你可以相信，你知道，只要你不认 为洗礼能救人，只要你不认为你可以给你的婴儿施洗。 As a Baptist, you can believe, you know, as long as you don't think baptism saves and as long as you don't think you can baptize your babies.
我的意思是，你知道，那里有很多回旋的余地。 I mean, you know, there's a lot of wiggle room there.
所以，你知道，我就像，哦，也许我可以成为某种，就像 ，也许我可以成为一个很酷的浸信会信徒，你知道吗？ So, you know, I was like, oh, maybe I can just be some, like, maybe I can be like a cool Baptist, you know?
我喜欢作为一个阅读教父著作的酷浸信会信徒，有这些奇怪的小众观点，对吧？ I like have these weird niche views as a cool Baptist that reads the Church Fathers, right?
所以我就像，是的，也许我会那样做。 And so I'm like, yeah, maybe I'll do that.
但随着时间的推移，随着我开始阅读更多的教父 著作，我就像，这听起来越来越像公教会了。 But as time went on, as I started reading more of the Church Fathers, I'm like, this is sounding more and more Catholic.
在这一点上，我向我的妻子求婚了，我们计划在我大二和大三之间的夏天结婚。 And at this point, I proposed to my wife, and we're planning on getting married the summer between my sophomore and junior year.
而在我的大三年，我开始在OBU学习，所以那是我们的计划。 And my junior year, I'm starting at OBU, and so that's our plan.
我们订婚了，在我们订婚期间，我正在阅读更多，我就像，好的，我必须学习更多。 We're engaged, and while we are engaged, I'm like reading more, and I'm like, okay, I've got to learn more.
我必须了解教父们相信什么。 I've got to learn about what the Church Fathers believed.
我开始在网上查找。 I start looking up online.
我实际上得到了我漏说的部分是我得到了这本书。 I actually get part of what I miss saying is I got this book.
抱歉，我要继续从书架上拿书。 Sorry, I'm going to keep pulling books off the shelf.
我喜欢它。 I love it.
太棒了。 It's great.
我爱它！ I love it!
《早期教父的信仰》，威廉·尤尔根斯著，我只是在阅读这个 ，就像后面有一个系统索引，就像我不知道这是公教的，但它 确实是公教的，因为教父们是公教的，所以这有点不可避免。 The faith of the early Fathers, William Juergens, and I'm just like reading this and like there's a systematic index in the back, and like I didn't know this was like Catholic, but it is Catholic because the Church Fathers are Catholic, so it's kind of unavoidable.
但只是阅读，就像，天啊，什么？ But just reading, like, man, what?
这些都是摘录，所以人们会说，哦，好吧，他们只是挑选了最像公教的东西。 And these are excerpts, so people will say, Oh, well, they just picked the most Catholic-sounding things.
用浸信会宗教做这个，好吗？ Do this with the Baptist religion, okay?
你不会——如果你尝试用非重生的只浸没信条洗礼做这个 ——你会得到一本宽度只有一半，明确性只有一半的书。 You will not – if you try and do this with non-regenerative immersion-only credo baptism – you're going to get a book half as wide and half as explicit.
你必须依靠模糊性，才能使你的立场——浸信会对 洗礼的理解在任何方面都具有历史性——成立。 You have to rely upon ambiguity in order to make your position that the Baptist's understanding of baptism was in any way historical.
你必须依靠模糊性。 You have to rely upon ambiguity.
无论如何，那是我的热门观点。 Anyway, that's my hot take.
总之，随着我阅读更多，我开始进入辩论。 Anyways, as I'm reading more, I start getting into debates.
我就像，好的，好吧，如果人们研究过这个，如果人们真的做了功课，深入研究了教 父，他们开始看到越来越多的公教徒，我就像，也许我应该开始听公教-新教辩论。 I'm like, Okay, well, if people have studied this, if people have really done their homework and have gone into the Church Fathers and they're starting to see more and more Catholics, I'm like, maybe I should start listening to Catholic-Protestant debates.
我已经很喜欢听播客了。 I already really liked listening to podcasts.
我喜欢听《圣经计划》。 I love listening to The Bible Project.
我喜欢听《救恩论101》，因为我是《救恩论101》的忠实 粉丝，喜欢加尔文主义和阿米念主义的辩论以及所有那些东西。 I love listening to Soteriology 101 because I was a big Soteriology 101 fan and like Calvinism and Arminianism debates and all that stuff.
那是一个完全不同的问题，但我已经非常喜欢听神学的东西，对吧？ And that's like a whole different issue, but I was already really into listening to theology stuff, right?
我就像，好的，我就听辩论。 And I'm like, Okay, I'll just listen to debates.
我literally消费了每一场网上可获得的辩论。 And I literally consume every single debate that is available online.
我只是不停地听它们。 I just nonstop listen to them.
我在听播客。 I'm listening to podcasts.
我找到了斯科特·哈恩。 I find Scott Hahn.
我找到了史蒂夫·雷。 I find Steve Ray.
史蒂夫·雷对我有很大影响，实际上，在我参加 成人入门礼的那一年，我实际上亲自见到了他。 Steve Ray was a huge influence, and I actually, the year I was in RCIA, I actually met him in person.
那有点超前了，但我就像，天啊，你对我的皈依有如此大的影响。 That's kind of going forward, but I was like, Man, you're such a big influence in my conversion.
我得到了他签名的书。 I got a book signed by him.
是的，太棒了。 Yeah, it was awesome.
无论如何，但我开始听，我就像，哦不，哦不，我有点认为公教徒是对的。 Anyway, but I start listening, and I'm like, Oh no, oh no, I kind of think the Catholics are right.
这很糟糕。 This is bad.
这不好。 This is not good.
我就像，他们不可能是对的。 I'm like, They can't be right.
但你学得越多，从教父那里看到的越多，你就越看到如果我们要从这些教会中 选择任何一个——至少在历史连续性方面——对我来说，它就像是公教会。 But the more you learn, the more you see from the Church Fathers, the more you see how if we are to pick from any of these churches – at least with historical continuity – to me, it's just like the Catholic Church.
如果你必须选择一个，那就是公教会。 If you had to pick one, it's the Catholic Church.
但我不想相信，仅仅因为相信那个特定的事情，一切都与我作对。 But I did not want to believe that everything was set against me for believing that specific thing.
对我来说，在那个时候，我就像，好的，也许它可以是英国圣公会。 And to me, at that point, I was just like, Okay, maybe it can be Anglican.
也许它可以是英国圣公会。 Maybe it can be Anglican.
也许是路德宗。 Maybe Lutheran.
但我不想走东方路线。 But I don't want to go Eastern.
也许是东正教。 Maybe Eastern Orthodox.
我就像，也许我可以只做东正教徒，因为我不接受教宗那一套。 I was like, Maybe I could just be Eastern Orthodox because I'm not down with the Pope thing.
我不能接受教宗那一套。 I can't do the Pope thing.
他们有更多的回旋余地，因为他们没有所有的教条或其他东西。 They have a little bit more wiggle room because they don't have all the dogmas or whatever.
那时我并不真正了解东正教是如何运作的。 I didn't really understand how Eastern Orthodoxy worked very well back then.
最后发生的是我让我最亲近的两个朋友知道。 What ends up happening is I let my two closest friends know.
我就像，伙计们，我最近一直在挣扎，我想我可能不得不成为公教徒。 I'm like, Guys, I've been really struggling for the past while, and I think I might have to be Catholic.
我不知道，但我倾向于那边。 I don't know, but I'm leaning there.
他们就像，不可能！ And they're like, No way!
因为我从高中就认识他们，而且我在高中时特别与他们辩论过重生洗礼。 Because I've known them since high school, and like I debated with them in high school about regenerative baptism specifically.
就像，我们在我们的圣经课上有这整个模拟辩论的事情，我们的高年级/低年级圣经课。 Like, we had this whole mock debate thing in our Bible class, our senior/junior class Bible class.
我记不清了。 I can't remember.
那是高三的圣经课。 It was senior year Bible class.
我们进行了一场关于洗礼重生的辩论。 We had a whole debate about baptismal regeneration.
我只是一遍又一遍地敲打他们，圣经说…… I was just hammering them over and over, The Bible says...
你知道吗？ You know?
他们就像，他们一百万年都不会想到我甚至会考虑像公 教这样的事情，更不用说他们当时的情况，路德宗。 And they're like, they never would have thought in a million years that I would even consider anything like Catholicism, not to mention like what they were at that point, Lutheran.
所以他给了我，我想在那个时候他可能给了我教理，或者他可能把那个给了我。 And so he gives me, I think at that point he might have given me the catechism, or he might have given that to me.
哦不，他在高中时给了我他的教理。 Oh no, he gave me his catechism in high school.
《公教会教理》，对吧？ Catechism of the Catholic Church, right?
是的，《公教会教理》。 Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
他在高中时给了我《公教会教理》，我差点在网上买了一个那种印章，上面 写着「仅供研究的异端胡言」，并用它盖章，但我没有。我只是，你知道， 我就像，好的，我会读它，然后我把它放在一个盒子里，我没有碰它。 He gave me the Catechism of the Catholic Church in high school, and I almost bought one of those stamps online that says heretical nonsense for research purposes only and stamped it with that, but I didn't. I just, you know, I was like, Okay, I'll read it, and I put it in a box and I didn't touch it.
在这一点上，我就像，哦糟糕，我有那本《教理》。 At this point, I'm like, Oh shoot, I have that Catechism.
我开始阅读《教理》，我开始阅读更多的教父著作，听更多的辩论，得到正确的公教答案， 读了一堆他们的文章，听了一堆《公教答案直播》，我就像，哦不，我最好让茉莉知道。 I start reading the Catechism, I start reading more Church Fathers, listening to more debates, getting the Catholic answers right, read a bunch of their articles, listen to a bunch of Catholic Answers Live, and I'm like, Oh no, I better let Jasmine know.
但在这一点上，你知道，我谈到了我的两个朋友，佩顿和洛根。 But at this point, you know, I talked about my two friends, Peyton and Logan.
他们就像，不可能。 They're like, There's no way.
这是在我结婚前几个月。 This is like a few months before I get married.
他们反对你皈依公教吗？ Were they opposed to you converting to Catholicism?
他们是不是像，是的，你知道，浸信会，路德宗？ Were they like, Yeah, you know, Baptist, Lutheran?
他们感觉如何？ How did they feel?
所以在那个时候，他们是路德宗信徒，如果你知道路德对再洗礼派的看法 ，再洗礼派可以说是浸信会的神学祖父，或者说是浸信会的祖先，他们并 不直接来自再洗礼派，因为我知道一些浸信会信徒会在下面评论，好吗？ So at that point, they were Lutheran, and if you know anything about Luther's opinion of the Anabaptists, which are kind of the theological grandparents, so to say, or ancestors of the Baptists, they don't come directly from the Anabaptists because I know some Baptists will comment down there, okay?
好的，神学传承。 Okay, theological heritage.
再洗礼派就像是浸信会的祖父母。 The Anabaptists are like the grandparents of Baptists.
无论如何，路德说他宁愿与教宗一起喝血，也不愿与再洗礼派一起参加圣餐。 Anyways, Luther said he would rather drink blood with the Pope than participate in communion with an Anabaptist.
就像，他就像，或者有一些引用是超级，就像，就像，你知道，那样生动。 Like, he was like, or there was like some quote that was like super, like, like, you know, vivid like that.
他向我引用了那个。 And he quoted that to me.
我就像，好的。 I'm like, okay.
他就像，我宁愿你成为教皇党人而不是浸信会信徒。 He's like, I would much rather you be Papist than a Baptist.
我就像，好的。 I'm like, okay.
我的意思是，那是路德的观点，所以我理解，我猜。 I mean, that was Luther's view, so I get it, I guess.
所以他们就像，没门，他们有点鼓励它。 So they're like, no way, and they kind of encouraged it.
显然，他们宁愿我成为路德宗信徒。 Obviously, they would have rather me be Lutheran.
所以每当我对公教感兴趣时，他就像，嘿，也许你应该看看这些Y ouTube视频，Vaticancatholic.com And so whenever I was interested in Catholicism, he's like, hey, maybe you should check out some of these YouTube videos, Vaticancatholic.com
以及一堆其他分裂的空位论YouTube频道。 and a bunch of other schismatic sedevacantist YouTube channels.
那对我来说非常令人困惑和震惊。 That was very confusing and scandalous to me.
我就像，也许我不知道我是否应该皈依。 I'm like, maybe I don't know if I should convert.
所以这有点让我慢下来。 So that kind of slowed me down.
但在回答了那些问题之后，这有点像是显而易见的事情，多米诺骨牌倒下。 But after answering those questions, it was kind of like a no-brainer, dominoes falling.
但最后发生的可能是在我和我妻子，我现在的妻子和我，结婚前几周，也 许是一个月，我基本上就像90%到了那里，80，90%到了那里。 But what ends up happening is probably a few weeks, maybe a month before my wife and I, my now wife and I, get married, I'm basically like 90% there, 80, 90% there.
我就像，哦，我很确定这会发生。 I'm like, oh, I'm pretty sure this is going to happen.
也许我会喜欢，但我从未踏入过公教会的教堂。 Maybe I'll like, but I had never set foot in the Catholic Church.
我从未参加过弥撒。 I had never been to Mass.
我从未听说过弥撒。 I had never heard of a Mass.
我从未上网查看过弥撒，比如直播或其他什么。 I'd never gone online and looked at Mass, like live or whatever.
从未做过任何那些事情。 Never done any of that.
从未接触过任何形式的公教事物，我妻子也没有。 Never been exposed to any sort of Catholic anything, and neither had my wife.
所以当我观看一堆辩论和东西时，我下载了这个名为Ha llow的祈祷应用程序，我就像，好的，这很有趣。 And so as I'm watching a bunch of debates and stuff, I download this prayer app called Hallow, and I'm like, okay, this is interesting.
它上面有一堆祈祷，就像我开始进入那种东西。 It has a bunch of prayers on there, and like I start getting into that sort of stuff.
在我们的蜜月期间，我有点告诉茉莉这个。 And it was on our honeymoon that I kind of tell Jasmine this.
我就像，嘿，看看这个应用程序。 I'm like, hey, check out this app.
我很确定这是一个公教应用程序，但你知道，它上面有主祷文。 I'm pretty sure it's a Catholic app, but you know, it's got Our Father on it.
它有一堆福音书。 It's got a bunch of Gospels.
我记不清在那个时候乔纳森·鲁米是否在上面朗读福音书。 I can't remember if at that point Jonathan Rumi read the Gospels or not on it.
我记不清了，但那可能是其中一个吸引点，就是乔纳森·鲁米。 I can't remember, but that might have been one of the draws, is Jonathan Rumi.
我们喜欢《被选中的人》。 We like The Chosen.
我记不清那是在我们成为公教徒之前还是之后。 I can't remember if that was before or after we became Catholic.
无论如何，就像，哦，听听这个。 Anyways, like, oh, listen to this.
这是一个如此好的祈祷。 It's such a good prayer.
就像，那是公教的吗？ Like, is that Catholic?
我不知道。 I don't know.
我就像，我不知道。 I'm like, I don't know.
就像，是的，我认为它是公教的。 Like, yeah, I think it's Catholic.
随着时间的推移，就像我不断地暗示。 And as time goes on, like I keep dropping hints.
我就像，茉莉，这是我在教父们中看到的。 I'm like, Jasmine, here's what I'm seeing in the Fathers.
这是公教会——我皈依的另一部分，抱歉，我完全跳过了这个— —就是了解到公教会并不相信很多人认为公教会相信的东西。 Here's what the Catholic—another part of my conversion, sorry, I completely skipped over this—it's just learning that the Catholic Church doesn't believe what a lot of people think the Catholic Church believes.
我就像，所以基本上，就像我在那个时候不是公教徒的原因的60%只是一个谎言。 I'm like, so basically, like 60% of the reason why I wasn't Catholic at that point was just a lie.
是的。 Yep.
我就像，如果你真的有理由不成为公教徒，为什么你必须对此撒谎？ And I'm like, if you actually have reasons to not be Catholic, why do you have to lie about it?
为什么你必须对公教徒相信的东西撒谎？ Why do you have to lie about what Catholics believe?
这太荒谬了。 It's so ridiculous.
但是，那只是一个完全不同的事情。 But yeah, that's just a whole other thing.
这就像是重新调整你对公教会真正是什么的理解，并对公教 会相信什么和教导什么有一个清晰的，水晶般清晰的观点。 It's like reorienting your understanding of what the Catholic Church really is and having a clear, crystal-clear view of what the Catholic Church believes and what it teaches.
当公教会和公教信仰以这样一种方式呈现给你，使 它们看起来毫无意义和荒谬时，这只会更有意义。 It just makes so much more sense when the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith are presented in such a way as to seem nonsensical and ridiculous to you.
猜猜怎么着？ Guess what?
你没有接触到公教信仰，这只是一种如此荒谬的 方式，向人们提出为什么你不相信他们的事情。 You're not being exposed to the Catholic faith, and that's just such a ridiculous way to propose things to people as to why you don't believe them.
无论如何，所以几个月过去了，当你与你的妻子分享这些。 Anyway, so months go by as you're sharing this with your wife.
不过我得知道，她是不是用奇怪的眼光看着你？ Though I got to know, is she looking at you funny?
她是不是像，我到底嫁给了谁？ Is she like, What the heck did I just marry?
这是怎么回事？ What is going on?
我将永远和这个人在一起，而他现在要成为公教徒？ I'm in with this guy forever and he's becoming Catholic now?
我感觉他们几乎是在她脚下抽走地毯，对吧？ I feel like they're pulling the rug out from under her almost, right?
是的，那完全就是当时的情况。 Yeah, that's totally how it was.
有些对话就像，我嫁给了一个浸信会信徒。 And there were conversations where it was like, I married a Baptist.
就像，这些话从她嘴里说出来：我嫁给了一个浸信会信徒，我只是不知道这个。 Like, those words came out of her mouth: I married a Baptist, and I just don't know about this.
你知道，我真的不知道。 You know, I just don't know.
也许我们可以成为英国圣公会信徒。 Maybe we can be Anglican.
我不是公教徒，我只是，慢慢地但肯定地，以我需要的方式呈现 给我，慢慢地但肯定地提供帮助，回答问题，暗示，表明，嘿， 我们认为的公教不是这样的，公教信仰的真相从未呈现给你。 I'm not Catholic, and I'm just like, slowly but surely, in the way that I needed it presented to me, slowly but surely offering helps, answering questions, dropping hints, showing that, Hey, this thing that we think is Catholicism isn't it, and the truth of the Catholic faith has never been presented to you.
当你那样想的时候，这就像，那么我一生中被告知的是什么呢？ And when you think about it that way, it's just like, So what about what have I been told my entire life?
对吧？ Right?
然后，当你开始得到困难的解答时，你内心会产生这种好奇心。 And, um, then there's this curiosity that is inspired within you when you start getting the difficulties answered for you.
为什么公教徒相信马利亚无罪？ Why do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless?
为什么公教徒相信教宗可以无误地发言？ Why do Catholics believe that the Pope can speak infallibly?
为什么公教徒相信教会是无误的？ Why do Catholics believe that the Church is infallible?
你知道吗？ You know?
你清除那些只是不准确、误解和讽刺画的困难，然后你开始通过圣经和 教父的原因来了解为什么公教徒相信某某是真的，它就开始有道理了。 And, um, you clear away the difficulties that are just inaccuracies and misunderstandings and caricatures, and then you start going through the biblical and patristic reasons why Catholics believe so-and-so is true, and it just starts clicking.
我们的认识论是新教的。 And our epistemology is Protestant.
这就像你试图自己弄清楚圣经教导什么，然后你去找一个最符合你所相信的教会。 It's like you try and figure out what the Bible teaches for yourself, and then you go and find a church that best matches what you believe.
就是这样。 That's what it is.
然后，一旦你找到一个符合你所相信的教会，你就 服从他们的权威，因为你已经相信他们所相信的。 And then, once you find a church that matches what you believe, you submit to their authority because you already believe what they believe.
而当他们说一些你不相信或你不同意，而且你认为是 不服从的理由的话时，你就不再有服从的义务了。 And the moment that they say something you don't believe or that you disagree with and you think is grounds for not submitting, you don't have that obligation to submit anymore.
没关系，你教的东西很奇怪；我要离开去别的地方。 It's okay, you're teaching something weird; I'm leaving and going somewhere else.
这不像他们可以被某个主教追究责任，或者主教 可以被教宗追究责任，只需要寄一封信上去。 It's not like they can be held accountable by some bishop, or the bishop can be held accountable by the Pope and just send a letter up.
那不是它的运作方式。 That's not how it works.
这不像有一个普遍的教理，你可以据此追究人们的责任，或者大公会议。 It's not like there's this universal catechism that you can hold people accountable to, or ecumenical councils.
不，我们的信仰基于圣经。 No, we base our beliefs on the Bible.
我想我们一开始的方法是，好的，我们需要能够证明和理解 每一个公教教义，才能开始顺服，这真的就是我们的旅程。 Our approach, I suppose at the beginning, was, Okay, we need to be able to prove and understand every single Catholic doctrine in order for us to start submitting, and that's really what our journey was.
就像我们正在经历，我们有这种新教的皈依方法，但一旦我明白我们应该从教会学习信 仰，而不是从我们已有的信仰学习教会，那么无论我有什么困难，我都相信基督和他的 应许，阴间的门不能胜过教会，他差遣真理的圣灵引导教会进入每个时代的一切真理。 It's like we're going through, we have this Protestant approach to conversion, but once it clicked to me that we are to learn the faith from the Church and not learn the Church from the faith that we have, then it's like, no matter the difficulties I have, I have faith in Christ and His promises that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church and that He set the Holy Spirit of Truth to guide the Church into all truth forever in every age.
我应该作为一个温顺的学习者来学习信仰。 And I'm supposed to learn the faith as a docile learner.
我坐在教会脚前，让它告诉我神说了什么和启示了什么。 I am sitting at the feet of the Church to tell me what God said and revealed.
一切都明白了；一切都各就各位。 It all clicks; it all falls into place.
我所有的困难和问题，我知道，如果这是真正的教会，它们将会得到解决。 And all of my difficulties and my questions, I know, well, if this is the true Church, they're going to be resolved.
即使我在解决其中一两个问题时遇到困难，那也是我可以操练谦 卑的时刻，那是我可以说，神啊，我在信心上有困难的时刻。 And even if I have trouble resolving one or two of them, then that's a moment where I can exercise humility, and that's a moment where I can say, God, I'm having trouble having faith.
给我那种信心。 Give me that faith.
给我那种我需要的信心，来信任你和你的应许。 Give me that faith that I need to trust in You and Your promises.
所以，在长时间的互相倾听和交谈，说，嘿，我对这个有困难， 好的，这是他们相信那个的原因，实际上是这样，最终促使我们 皈依的是，有一天茉莉就像，我们为什么不去参加弥撒呢？ And so what actually ended up prompting our conversion, after a long, long time of listening and talking with each other and saying, Hey, I'm having trouble with this, and Okay, here's the reason why they believe that, and that's actually this, Jasmine one day was like, Why don't we just go to Mass?
你以前从未参加过弥撒？ You've never been to a Mass before?
从未在公教会的教堂50英尺范围内走过？ Never walked within 50 feet of a Catholic church?
可能甚至不知道圣水是什么，对吧？ Didn't even know what holy water was, probably, right?
什么都不知道。 Didn't know any of that.
当你说那些话的时候，我浑身起鸡皮疙瘩。 I got absolute goosebumps when you were saying that.
顺便说一下，那太不可思议了。 By the way, that's incredible.
那太美了。 That's beautiful.
但好的，所以你要走进去。 But okay, so you're walking into it.
你要去参加公教会的弥撒。 You're going to a Catholic Mass.
你要做了。 You're doing it.
是的，第一次。 Yes, first time.
抱歉，先说一下。 Sorry, preface.
在这段挣扎期间，我记得我在ORU。我们搬到了OBU，位于俄克拉荷马州肖尼。 During this struggle, I remember I was at ORU. We moved to OBU, which is in Shawnee, Oklahoma.
它在俄克拉荷马城西边一个半小时的地方。 It's an hour and a half west towards Oklahoma City.
我仍然每周三和周日作为他们的青年事工人员旅行。 I am still traveling Wednesdays and Sundays as their youth minister.
当我经历这种挣扎时，我仍然在这个浸信会教会工作，随着时间的推移，我 只是有这种信念，好的，我的观点正在改变，在我只是像，好的，我不能本 着良心在你的教会教导你所相信的，因为我不能，或者在你的教会教导我所 相信的，因为你不相信我所相信的，之前，我只有那么多的回旋余地。 I'm still working at this Baptist church as I'm going through this struggle, and as time goes on, I just get this conviction like, okay, my views are changing, and there's only so much wiggle room that I can have before I'm just like, okay, I can't in good conscience teach what you believe at your church because I can't, or teach what I believe at your church because you don't believe what I believe in.
所以有一段时间，我和茉莉谈了很久。 And so there came a time when me and Jasmine had been talking for a long time.
我不知道我应该如何带领。 I don't know how I'm supposed to lead.
我不知道我该怎么告诉他们，是的，我们不再做这个了。 I don't know how I'm supposed to tell them, yeah, we're not doing it anymore.
那时就有了这个对话：我们就去参加弥撒，看看会发生什么。 And that's when this conversation comes up: let's just go to Mass and see what happens.
我就像，好的，让我们去做，因为我以为要花更长的时间才能让她到达那个点。 And I'm like, okay, let's do it, because I thought it was going to take a longer time to get her to that point.
但她就像，可能是受圣灵的提示，让我们去看看会发生什么。 But she's like, probably prompted by the Holy Spirit, let's just go and see what happens.
让我们惊讶的是，我们走进去——美丽的彩色玻璃。 And to our surprise, we walked in—beautiful stained glass.
实际上，这真的很有趣。 And actually, it was really funny.
我们星期六早上来，因为我们以为他们有星期六早上的弥撒，但实际上是星期六晚上。 We came on a Saturday morning because we thought they had Saturday morning Mass, but it was actually Saturday evening.
我们都盛装前来，外面闲逛的是我们未来的成人入门礼主任。 And we came all dressed up, and outside just hanging out was our future RCIA director.
你知道，我走上前，我字面上——我就像——我拿着一本大圣经。 And you know, I come up, and I'm literally—I'm like—I'm holding like a big Bible.
它可能就是这个大小。 It's probably about this size.
这是一本CSB（基督教标准圣经）。我就这样拿着我的圣经，在停车场走向教堂。 It was a CSB. I was holding my Bible like this, walking up to the church in the parking lot.
我就像，嘿，我们——你知道，我们从未参加过弥撒。 I'm like, hey, we're—you know, we've never been to a Mass before.
这就是你们所称的弥撒吗？ Is that what you call it, a Mass?
我们从未去过，你知道，它是不是很快就要开始了？ We've never been, you know, is it happening now soon?
就像，停车场是空的，她只是坐在那里，她就像，今晚不管什么时候再来。 Like, the parking lot's empty, and she's just sitting out there, and she's like, just come back tonight at whatever time.
我想大约是5:30或6点左右。 I think it was like 5:30 or 6 or something like that.
所以她就像——她告诉我们回来，我们就回来了。 And so she's like—she tells us to come back, and we come back.
那是一个星期六的晚上，因为我们不能去星期日，因为猜怎么着？ It was a Saturday night because we couldn't go Sunday because guess what?
我必须起床，开一个半小时的车回到塔尔萨，教主日学，参加浸信会的礼拜。 I had to wake up and drive an hour and a half back to Tulsa to teach Sunday school and go participate in the Baptist service.
所以我每个星期日都这样做，然后我们开一个半小时的车回来。 And so I did that every Sunday, and then we drove back an hour and a half.
所以我们不能去星期日；我们去了星期六晚上。 And so we couldn't go Sunday; we went Saturday night.
我们太累了，只是被礼仪的美丽所震撼。 And we were so tired, blown away just by the beauty of the liturgy.
我们成长过程中没有这种正式的，像是规程化的礼仪，像是，好的，你说这个， 你做这个，你站起来，你坐下，你跪下，你知道，做所有——你说这些事情。 We did not grow up having this sort of formal, like, rubric liturgy, like, okay, you say this, you do this, you stand up, you sit down, you kneel, you know, do all—you say these things.
不知道怎么念尼西亚信经；我们不得不使用座位上的那个东西。 Didn't know how to say the Nicene Creed; we had to use the thing in the pew.
但没关系，那没有害处，好吗？ But that's okay, no harm in that, okay?
那没什么可羞耻的。 No shame in that.
当我们确实知道的时候，我们确实知道的一件事，我们知道怎么说，就是主祷文。 When we did know, we did know the one thing we did know how to say is the Our Father.
所以，我们在天上的父，愿人都尊你的名为圣。 So, Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
我们就像看着人们，好的，我们试图跟着做。 We're like looking at people like, okay, we're trying to like follow along.
愿你的旨意行在地上，如同行在天上。我们日用的饮食 ，今日赐给我们。免我们的债，如同我们免了人的债。 On earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
不叫我们遇见试探，救我们脱离凶恶。 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
因为国度、权柄、荣耀，全是你的，我们大声说出来，而每个人都沉默了。 For thine is the kingdom, we say out loud, and everyone silent.
我们就像，哦！ And we're like, oh!
但它仍然，你知道，看到彩色玻璃上耶稣基督和我们 蒙福的圣母的图像，仍然是一段如此美妙的时光。 But it was still, you know, it was still such an amazing time seeing the pictures of Jesus Christ and our Blessed Mother on the stained glass.
十字架苦路就像，哦我的天哪，墙上有大约10或15个不 同的，你知道，基督在这些不同十字架苦路站点的雕像。 The Stations of the Cross were like, oh my goodness, there's like 10 or 15 different, you know, statues on the walls with Christ at these different Stations of the Cross.
当时我们完全不知道十字架苦路是什么。 We had no idea what the Stations of the Cross were at that time.
我们抬头看；有一尊我们蒙福圣母的雕像，有一尊基督的雕像，有十字架上的基督。 And we looked up; there's a statue of our Blessed Mother, there's a statue of Christ, there's Christ on the crucifix.
这是如此美丽的雕像、祭坛和十字架。 It's such a beautiful statue, altar, and crucifix.
在右边，有一尊圣本笃的雕像。 And on the right, there's a statue of St. Benedict.
我完全不知道圣本笃是谁。 I had no idea who St. Benedict was.
实际上，它可能是圣额我略，但教堂的名字是圣本笃。 Actually, it might have been St. Gregory, but the church was named St. Benedict.
这是一座非常美丽的教堂，建于俄克拉荷马成为州之前，好吗？ It's a very beautiful church and built before Oklahoma was even a state, okay?
然后我们结束了，我们就像，好的，首先，他们在弥撒中读圣经，这太疯狂了。 And we end it, and we're like, okay, first of all, they read the Bible at Mass, which is crazy.
其次，礼仪就是圣经，好吗？ Second of all, the liturgy is just the Bible, okay?
礼仪字面上就是圣经和教父们的引用。 The liturgy is literally just the Bible and like quotations from the Church Fathers.
就像，那太疯狂了。 Like, that's insane.
就像，我就像，我听到像，哦，什么是一个好例子？ Like, I'm like, I'm hearing like, oh, what's a good example?
神的羔羊，除去世上罪孽的，求你怜悯我们。 Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
或者，主啊，我不配你到我的屋檐下。 Or, Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof.
我听到这些东西，从一个新教浸信会的角度成长，圣经就像是那个东西。 And I hear these things, and growing up from a Protestant Baptist perspective, the Bible is like the thing.
没有教理，没有任何那些东西。 Don't have no catechisms, don't have any of that.
我们有问题，是的，我们有gotquestions.org， We have got questions, yeah, we got gotquestions.org,
但我们没有教理。 but we don't have the catechism.
我们没有任何那种东西。 We don't have any of that sort of stuff.
所以就像，是的，你只是——就像，你必须读的唯一东西基本上就是圣经。 So it's like, yeah, you just—like, the only thing that you have to read is the Bible pretty much.
然后你有一些像是评论圣经的其他书籍。 And then you have like other books that like comment on the Bible.
所以这些在我们主的生平中的圣经故事就像，哦我的天哪，当 我们在礼仪中听到这些东西时，它们开始在我的脑海中浮现。 And so these stories of Scripture during the life of our Lord just like, oh my gosh, they start like appearing before my mind as we hear these things in the liturgy.
我就像，我尽量不哭因为它太美了。 And I'm just like, I'm like trying not to cry because it's so beautiful.
是的，哦，看到圣餐礼仪是如此美丽的事情。 Yeah, oh, it was such a beautiful thing seeing the liturgy of the Eucharist.
是的，之后我们去买了披萨，因为我们就像，是的，让我们去买些披萨。 And yeah, and afterwards we went and got pizza because we're like, yeah, let's go get some pizza.
我们就像，天哪，他们读圣经。 And we're like, man, they read the Bible.
那太美了。 That was so beautiful.
那与我预期的完全不同，因为我们，再次，我们甚至 从未经历过礼仪性的，像是传统的教会礼拜，对吧？ That is nothing like I would have expected because we had, again, we had never even experienced a liturgical, like, traditional church service, right?
我们就像，是的，我们可能必须这样做。 And we were just like, yeah, we might have to do this.
我就先告诉了——我想是几周后，我记不清了，我想这实 际上也是将临期的第一个星期日，如果我没记错的话。 And I went ahead and I told—I think a few weeks later, I can't remember, and I think this was actually the first Sunday of Advent too, if I remember correctly.
所以那里有真正酷的象征意义。 So really cool symbolism there.
但我给主要牧师发短信，我就像，嘿，我们不能再做这个车程了。 But I texted the lead pastors, and I'm like, hey, we can't do the drive anymore.
也许将来有什么我们可以做的，但我不确定，因为，你知道，和他们的暂定 计划是，我将去完成我的教育，我将回来，我将成为你们的全职青年牧师。 Maybe there's something in the future that we can do, but I'm not sure because, you know, the tentative plan with them, I'm going to go finish my education, I'm going to come back, I'm going to be your full-time youth pastor.
我已经与所有孩子建立了这么好的联系。 And I had formed such a good connection with all the kids.
我们在那个教堂结婚。 We got married in that church.
说再见是如此艰难的事情，我不能让自己说我们正在成为公教徒。 It was such a hard thing to do to say goodbye, and I couldn't bring it to myself to say we’re becoming Catholic.
所以他们最终通过我开始我的YouTube频道发现我成为了公教徒。 And so they ended up finding out that I became Catholic by me starting my YouTube channel.
我永远不能打电话给他们说，嘿，我正在成为公教徒。 I could never call them and say, hey, I'm becoming Catholic.
现在回顾，那可能是我最大的遗憾之一，我没有说，嘿，我们正在成为公教徒。 And looking back now, that's probably one of my biggest regrets is I didn't say, hey, we are becoming Catholic.
但在那个时候，就像我们可能只是必须这样做。 But at that point, it was like we might just have to do this.
我们加入了成人入门礼课程来了解更多，我们去 得越多，我们就越像，是的，我们要做这个。 And we joined RCIA to learn more, and the more we went, the more we were just like, yeah, we're doing this.
我们的问题慢慢但肯定地得到了回答，现在就像一个——你知道，我们在2023年复 活节接受了坚振，从那时起，学习所有不同的灵修资源，教会的美好敬拜实践，阅读《 教理》，阅读各种教理，因为在教会过去2000年中写了许多不同的教理，阅读教父 著作，真正与他们认同，感受这种联系，圣徒的共融，这一直是如此美好的时光。 And our questions were slowly but surely answered, and now it's just like such a—you know, we got confirmed in Easter of 2023, and ever since then, it's been such a wonderful time learning of all the different spiritual resources and just like wonderful devotional practices of the Church and like reading the catechism and reading the catechisms because there's a bunch of different catechisms that have been written throughout the past 2000 years of the Church and reading the Church Fathers and really identifying with them and feeling this connection, the communion of saints.
我们认识到凯旋教会是与战斗教会同一个身体的一部分，对吧？ We recognize that the Church Triumphant is part of the same body as the Church Militant, right?
知道我在圣奥古斯丁、圣亚他拿修、圣耶柔米、殉道者圣游斯丁和所有 这些我仰慕的人的教会中，以及安提阿的圣依纳爵，这真是太美了。 And it was just so beautiful knowing that I am in the Church of St. Augustine and St. Athanasius and St. Jerome and St. Justin Martyr and all these people that I looked up to, and St. Ignatius of Antioch.
当我接受坚振时，我以他的名字作为我的主保圣人，在2023年复活节 ，我们接受了入门圣事，除了洗礼，因为我们已经接受了新教的洗礼。 I took his name as my patron saint whenever I was confirmed, and Easter 2023, we received the sacraments of initiation, minus baptism because we were baptized Protestant.
实际上，在那之前，我们也做了我们的第一次告解作为准备，我想那是另一个很棒的经历。 And we actually, before that, we made our first confession as well in preparation, and that was just a whole nother like great experience, I suppose.
作为一个成年人，你第一次是什么感觉？ And what was that like for your first time as an adult?
你知道，我是在公教会长大的，所以这只是你在成长过程中所做的事情。 You know, I was raised Catholic, and so it's just kind of something you do growing up.
但我无法想象作为一个成年人走进去，就像，是的，只是向某个人说出你的罪。 But I can't imagine walking in as an adult and, like, yeah, just saying your sins to some guy.
如果你从未做过，它一定很奇怪，对吧？ If you've never done it, it's got to be so weird, right?
你知道，感觉很奇怪。 You know, it felt weird.
但你开始，你意识到这是耶稣基督希望将他的怜悯倾注到我的心里。 But you start and you realize that this is Jesus Christ wishing to have His mercy poured out into my heart.
你知道，在我们的成人入门礼课程中，我们有多次关于和好圣事的课程，你知道， 祭司真的是在基督位格中行动，把这一点放在我脑海的最前面，并且说，这是一位 神的仆人，希望作为一个工具传递神的怜悯给我，使我能处于成圣恩宠的状态。 And you know, we had multiple sessions on the Sacrament of Reconciliation in our RCIA class, and you know, really the priest acting in persona Christi, having that at the forefront of my mind and saying, This is a minister of God who wishes to act as an instrument to impart God's mercy to me so that I can be in a state of sanctifying grace.
它变得不奇怪了，你知道，排队。 It was, it became not weird, you know, lining up.
我坐下时很紧张，嘿，这是我的第一次告解。 I was nervous sitting down and, Hey, this is my first confession.
你知道，我17岁时受洗，所以像是多年前，或者16岁。我想 我是16岁，所以从那以后有很多罪，你知道，我就像，是的。 You know, I was baptized when I was 17, so like years ago, or 16. I think I was 16, so there's a lot of sins since then, you know, and I'm like, Yeah.
但对我来说，告解让我想起在礼仪中我们说，主啊，我不配你 到我的屋檐下，只要你说一句话，我的灵魂就会得到医治。 But just confessing to me, it reminded me of in the liturgy when we say, Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
当我听到赦罪的话语时，就像和平突然涌上我心头。 And when I heard the words of absolution, it's just like peace just rushed over me.
当你把你的罪交给神时，它们被从你的灵魂中解除，神在说，是的 ，这现在是我的了，它消失了，我给你我的义，我使你讨人喜悦。 And as you're giving your sins to God, they are being lifted off of your soul, and God is saying, Yeah, this is mine now, and it's gone, and I give you my righteousness, and I make you pleasing.
没有什么你可以做的来赚取它。 There's nothing that you can do to earn it.
没有什么你可以做的，你知道，通过努力获得我的青睐或通过努力获得我的宽恕。 There's nothing that you can do to, you know, work your way into my favor or work your way into my forgiveness.
这是我愿意恩慈和怜悯地赐给你的东西。 It's something that I will to graciously and mercifully bestow upon you.
是的，通过耶稣在十字架上的赎罪死亡，他的父爱在和好圣事中应用 于我们，这是我听说过的最解放的事情，我迫不及待地想再去告解。 And yeah, just His fatherly love through Jesus' atoning death on the cross being applied to us in the Sacrament of Reconciliation was the most freeing thing that I've ever heard of, and I couldn't wait to get back to confession.
我就像，这太棒了！ I'm just like, This is so awesome!
这实际上促使我开始坐在祭司面前，没有隔板，知道有那额外的一层 责任，虽然你是一位祭司，你是神的仆人，但你也和我一样是个人。 And that actually prompted me to start sitting in front of the priests without the partition, and there's just that extra layer of accountability knowing, although you are a priest, you're a minister of God, and you're a man just like me.
你和我一样是个罪人。 You're a sinner just like me.
你有这个特殊的事工赐给你，这真的是基督希望通过你作为一个仆人传递他的怜悯。 You have this special ministry given to you, and really this is Christ wishing to impart His mercy through you as a minister.
所以，嗯，是的，约翰，约翰章节，是约翰21:20还是约翰2 0:21？是20？是的，是20。是20章，耶稣说，你们赦免 谁的罪，谁的罪就赦免了；你们留下谁的罪，谁的罪就留下了。 And so, um, yeah, John, John chapters, is it John 21:20 or John 20:21? Where 20? Yeah, it's 20. It's 20 where Jesus says, Whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.
而在新教世界中，这的实际应用是什么？ And like in the Protestant world, what's the practical application of this?
好吧，如果你传福音，他们接受福音，那么你可 以说他们的罪被赦免了，因为他们接受了福音。 Well, if you preach the Gospel and they accept the Gospel, then you can say that their sins are forgiven because they accepted the Gospel.
我们的主说，你们赦免谁的罪，谁的罪就赦免了。 Our Lord says, Whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven.
这是耶稣希望在新约教会中传递宽恕的方式。 This is the way that Jesus willed to impart forgiveness in the New Covenant Church.
这是福音书中的一个重要时刻。 This is a monumental moment in the Gospels.
他说，你们赦免谁的罪，谁的罪就赦免了；你们留下谁的罪，谁的罪就留下了。 He says, Whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.
这就像，在公教范式中，在公教神学中，它有更多的意义。 And this is just like, it makes so much more sense in the Catholic paradigm, the Catholic theology.
它如此紧密地结合在一起；有如此多的交叉。 It's so cohesive together; there's so much crossover.
只是拥有一种寻求理解的信仰，随着岁月的流逝而了解更多，就像，哇，那就像， 你了解到那些对你当时如此重要的时刻，在月底时比你意识到的有更多的意义。 And just having a faith that seeks understanding and learning more about that as the years go by, it's just like, wow, that was just like, you learn that the moments that were so significant to you in the moment have much more significance than you even realize at the end of the month.
是的，学习公教信仰，了解到我所认为的公教信仰只是 对公教会教导的如此大的扭曲，这是如此美丽的旅程。 Yeah, it was just such a beautiful journey learning about the Catholic faith, learning that what I thought the Catholic faith was, just, it was just such a distortion of what the Catholic Church teaches.
知道这一点，知道教会的敌人必须曲解她才能诋毁她，这听起来像什么？ And knowing that, knowing that the enemies of the Church have to misrepresent her in order to discredit her, what does that sound like?
魔鬼从一开始就是说谎者。 The devil has been a liar from the beginning.
如果你必须对你的对手撒谎来诋毁他们，这说明的是你自己的问题，而不是他们的问题。 If you have to lie about your adversaries to discredit them, it says more about you than it does about them.
所以我认为这基本上总结了我的旅程。 So I think that pretty much wraps up my journey.
如果你有任何具体问题或需要回顾。 If you have any specific questions or need to go back.
是的，那很美。 Yeah, that was beautiful.
是的，听你谈论这些事情，我起了鸡皮疙瘩。 Yeah, I'm getting goosebumps hearing you talk about these things.
这太神奇了。 This is amazing.
但我确实想问，当你经历这些时，是什么——因为你知 道可能有大约三个主要反对意见一次又一次地出现。 But I do want to ask, though, as you were going through, what was – because you know there's probably maybe three-ish main objections that come up over and over again.
最大的几个，可能是教宗或马利亚，对吧？ The biggest ones, probably the Pope or Mary, right?
这两个是并排的，然后第二受欢迎的可能是圣餐，对吧？ Those two are kind of side by side, and then a sort of second most popular would be the Eucharist, right?
我认为这三个是我看到最多的三个。 I think those three are the three that I see the most.
人们就像，你敬拜马利亚，等等等等，我就像，不，我不是，要么是圣餐要么是教宗制度。 People are like, You worship Mary, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, No, I don't, or else the Eucharist or else the papacy.
所以也许你可以过一遍，带我们走一遍。 So maybe you could go through and just walk us through it.
也许从马利亚开始。 Start with Mary, maybe.
我想我们的圣母真的，真的很想听到这个。 I think Our Lady really, really would love to hear this.
但从你开始的地方开始，好吗？ But start with where did you start with?
因为我想你在介绍中提到你认为公教徒向马利亚祈祷，向死人祈祷，所有这些事情。 Because I think you mentioned in the intro you thought Catholics pray to Mary, pray to dead people, all these things.
是的，所以这就是你开始的地方。 Yeah, so that's kind of where you started.
但对你来说，什么是一个分水岭时刻？ But what was sort of a watershed moment for you?
是阅读教父著作吗？ Was it reading the Fathers?
是在圣经中看到了什么吗？ Was it seeing something in the Scripture?
是不是就像一个天使向你显现，就像，嘿，别闹了？ Was it just like an angel appeared to you and was like, Hey, knock it off?
发生了什么，你知道吗？ What happened, you know?
是的，对我来说，每一个解决的困难，基本上就是 我的守护天使亲自向我显现，就像，哟，是的！ Yeah, every difficulty that was resolved for me, it was basically just my guardian angel just like appearing to me in person and being like, Yo, yeah!
关于蒙福童贞马利亚，她的升天，她的无罪，与 无罪一起的，无原罪始胎，然后就是她的转祷。 With the Blessed Virgin Mary, her assumption, her sinlessness, which along with the sinlessness, the Immaculate Conception, and then just her intercession.
所以这只是圣徒更广泛的转祷。 And so that's just the broader intercession of the saints.
真的，如果我没记错的话，对我来说第一个崩溃的是转祷，因为我的意思 是这只是与更广泛的神学理解有关，好的，当你去天堂，你在神的面前， 你组成希伯来书11和12章的云彩般的见证人，你看到地上发生的事情 ，向那些仍在奔跑，仍在战斗教会中的人呼喊，为什么你不祈祷呢？ Really, the first thing that fell for me was intercession, if I recall correctly, because I mean that just has to do with a broader theological understanding of, okay, when you go to heaven and you're in the presence of God and you make up the cloud of witnesses of Hebrews 11 and 12, and you are seeing what's occurring on earth and shouting the people on who are still running the race, who are still among the Church Militant, why would you not pray?
显然，我们在圣经中看到许多例子，天上的人，启示录中的殉道者。 Obviously, we see many examples in Scripture for where people in heaven, the martyrs of Revelation.
然后对我来说一个巨大的时刻是看到启示录5:8和启示录8:5。它们如何在你身上反转 很有趣，天使和圣徒，长老们，带着香炉，就是圣徒的祈祷，来到神面前，把它们献给神。 And then what was a huge moment for me is seeing in Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:5. It's nice how they kind of reverse on you, where both the angels and the saints, the elders, come before God with a bowl of incense, which are the prayers of the saints, and they offer them to God.
所以根据希伯来书11和12章，他们不仅知道我们在地上的 生活，他们组成了伟大的见证人云彩，他们在为我们加油。 And so not only are they aware of our life on earth, according to Hebrews 11 and 12, they make up the great cloud of witnesses and they're cheering us on.
他们不仅知道我们向神发出祈祷，而且在启示录中，他 们literally代表我们向神献上我们的祈祷。 Not only are they aware that we're sending prayers up to God, but they are literally offering our prayers to God on our behalf in the Book of Revelation.
是的，圣徒的转祷还能是什么呢？ Yeah, what else is saintly intercession?
它还能是什么？ What else is it?
如果不是圣徒让神知道你的请求并把它们给他，那是什么？ If it's not the saints making your request known to God and giving them to Him?
对。 Right.
绝对地，对我来说，那就像，哦哇，那在圣经中是明确的。 Absolutely, to me that was just like a, Oh wow, that's like explicitly in the Bible.
你知道，那就像，好的，那是有道理的。 You know, that was just like such a, Okay, that makes sense.
你知道，那些反对意见与此有关，哦，为了让圣徒为你祈祷，他们 必须有某种全知的知识；他们有这种只有神才有的超自然属性。 And you know, the objections that have to do with, Oh well, in order for the saints to pray for you, they must have some sort of omniscient knowledge; they have like this supernatural attribute that only God has.
真的，像那些低级别，低层次的论点就像，不，他们没 有。神可以使他想要的任何人拥有任何能力，好吗？ And really, like those low-level, low-tier arguments were just like, No, they don't. God can enable whoever He wants to have whatever capacity, okay?
你不需要literally知道所有时间中关于一切 的每一个细节，才能知道向神发出的特定祈祷，好吗？ And you don't need to know literally every single detail about everything among all of time in order to know specific prayers addressed to God, okay?
所以它仍然是有限数量的祈祷。 So it's still a finite number of prayers.
不过，我不得不问。 I've got to ask, though.
是的，抱歉，我不得不问。 Yeah, sorry, I've got to ask.
我只是不得不问这个：你记得你对马利亚说的第一个祈祷吗？ I've just got to ask this: Do you remember the first prayer that you said to Mary?
就像，那感觉如何？ Like, how did that feel?
那很尴尬，还是像，这很合适？ Was that awkward, or was it like, This fits?
你记得吗？ Do you remember it?
我很好奇。 I'm curious.
好的，所以蒙福童贞马利亚，我想她是我请求为我祈祷的 第一个人，我不记得它是像圣母经还是像，哟，怎么了？ Okay, so the Blessed Virgin Mary, I think she was the first person that I asked to pray for me, and I don't remember if it was like a Hail Mary or like, Yo, what's up?
这通常是我开始祈祷的方式：我画十字圣号。 That's usually how I start my prayers: I make the sign of the cross.
是的，即使是这样为我们画十字圣号看起来就像——特别是回到家里， 在我们家人面前做，你知道，那真的就像，你知道，就像我们有点像， 是的，有时只是在我们的额头上画十字就像，是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, even the sign of the Cross for us like that just seems like – especially going back home and doing it in front of our family members, you know, that was like really like, you know, like we’re kind of like, yeah, sometimes it’s crossing on our forehead just like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
所以，是的，这是一个范式转变。 And so, yeah, that is a paradigm shift.
它感觉不不自然，但它感觉不是不合理的，因为一旦神学在那里， 它就有点像，好的，这是为了我的好处，神可能愿意我这样做，因 为圣经命令我们在地上时为地上的每个人做请求和转祷，对吧？ It didn’t feel unnatural, but it didn’t feel unwarranted because once the theology is there, it’s just kind of like, okay, this is for my good, and God probably wills that I do this because Holy Scripture commands us to make petitions and intercessions for everyone on earth while we’re on earth, right?
你知道，保罗请求他写信的教会为他祈祷，他说他为他们祈祷，就像我们向与 我们同属于圣徒共融的基督里的弟兄姐妹请求为我们祈祷是很自然的，对吧？ And you know, Paul asks for prayer from the churches he writes to, and he says he prays for them, and it’s like it’s only natural that we would ask our brothers and sisters in Christ who are part of the same communion of saints as us to pray for us, right?
所以那个多米诺骨牌倒得很快，我向马利亚祈祷的第一个祈祷，我想它就像，感觉 有点不舒服，但我知道在一生的反公教偏见之后形成我的良知，需要一些时间。 And so that domino fell really quickly, and the first prayer that I prayed to Mary, I think it was like, it felt a little uncomfortable, but I knew that forming my conscience after a lifetime of anti-Catholic bigotry, it would take some time.
也许那是神，你知道，给我的一点暂时的惩罚，因为就像 ，哇，我取笑这个这么久，结果它是对的，你知道吗？ And maybe that’s a little temporal punishment that God was, you know, giving me because just like, wow, I made fun of this for so long, turns out it’s right, you know?
所以，是的，我想可能是圣母经。 And so, yeah, I think it was probably Hail Mary.
可能是我祈祷了部分玫瑰经或类似的东西，或者祈祷 了一串玫瑰经，但我一定在那之前说过一句圣母经。 It might have been I prayed part of the Rosary or something like that or prayed a Rosary, but I must have said a Hail Mary before that.
但我必须思考一下，因为我不记得具体的日子，但我确实知道，我确实知道它是在我们开 始成为公教徒之前，或者是在我们加入成人入门礼之前。它是在我们去参加弥撒之前。 But I have to think about that because I don’t remember the specific day, but I do know, I do know it was before we had started becoming Catholic or it was before that we joined RCIA. It was before we had gone to Mass.
是的，我在我的频道上一直这么说。 Yeah, I say it all the time on my channel.
我就像，你只需对马利亚说一个小小的祈祷，一切就结束了。 I'm like, you say just one small prayer to Mary and it's over.
一切都结束了，你完了，你被煮熟了。 It's all over, you're done, you're cooked.
迟早，我喜欢那样。 Sooner or later, I love that.
好的，我不想占用你太多时间。 Okay, I don't want to keep you too long.
我们已经做了将近一个小时，所以我希望你有多一点时间。 We've been at this for almost an hour, so I hope you got a little bit more.
我不知道你有多少时间，但是... I don't know how much time you got, but...
我应该可以再，让我看看，可能再20，20，30分钟。 I should be good for another, let's see, another probably 20, 20, 30 minutes.
是的，我们在这里会快点。 Yeah, we'll go quick here.
我也想听听，你知道，为你阅读教父和圣经，在圣经中看到的东西。 I do want to hear also just, you know, reading the Fathers and the Scriptures for you and seeing things in the Bible.
但是我经常遇到反对意见，嗯，教宗在圣经哪里？ But oftentimes I get the objection, Well, where's the Pope in the Bible?
对吧？ Right?
就像，那在圣经哪里？ Like, where is that in the Bible?
那在哪里？ Where is that?
那么是什么——因为我假设那可能是你的立场，对吧？ And so what was – because I'm assuming that was probably your position, right?
在生命早期，你读马太福音16章，你就像，哦是的，彼得很酷。 Early in life, you read Matthew 16 and you're like, Oh yeah, Peter's cool.
我不知道，有不同的新教解释。 I don't know, there's different Protestant interpretations.
但是你的最终分水岭时刻是什么，你就像，哦我的天哪，教宗实际上是基督在地上的代表？ But what was your final watershed moment where you're like, Oh my gosh, the Pope is actually Christ's vicar on earth?
我想，嗯，我们都会去的最明确的段落是马太福音16:18-19。但 我认为这真的与我的主要反对意见无关，你知道，有这个人是领导者。 I think, well, the most explicit passage we all go to is Matthew 16:18-19. But I think it has to do really because my main objection wasn't, you know, there's this guy who is the leader.
他是地上有形的领导者；他是基督有形的代表，能够保持团结。 He's the visible leader on earth; he's a visible representation of Christ who's able to preserve unity.
这对我来说并不难理解，因为在使徒时代，特别是 阅读使徒行传和福音书的记述，这是很清楚的。 That wasn't as difficult for me to understand because it's clear in the Apostolic Age, especially reading Acts and reading the accounts of the Gospels.
在所有十二使徒中，他被提到的次数远远更多。 Among all the twelve apostles, he's mentioned far more.
他多次代表团体发言，而还有谁这样做，对吧？ He speaks on behalf of the group many times, whereas who else does that, right?
他主动为犹大按立继任者。 And he takes initiative for ordaining a successor to Judas.
他主动宣讲第一篇道。 He takes the initiative for preaching the first sermon.
他主动做了很多很多事情，甚至在基督的生平中，对吧？ He takes the initiative for many, many things, even during the life of Christ, right?
马太福音16:18，意识到，好的，我对这段经文的解释不能完全否定它的重要性。 And Matthew 16:18, realizing, okay, my exegesis of this passage can't just completely nullify the significance of it.
这与约翰福音第20章有相同之处，耶稣说，你们赦免谁的罪，谁的罪就赦免了。 And it kind of goes the same with John chapter 20, where Jesus says, Whosoever sins you forgive, they’re forgiven.
好的，那么哪个教会传统对这段经文最有意义？ Okay, so what church tradition makes the most sense of this passage?
马太福音16:18-19。好的，彼得，我给你重新命名； 你的名字现在意味着磐石，在这磐石上我要建立我的教会。 Matthew 16:18-19. Okay, Peter, I'm renaming you; your name now means rock, and on this rock I will build my church.
甚至——就像你之前说的——即使你将其解释为，好的 ，嗯，耶稣在上面建立他的教会的磐石是彼得的信心。 And even—like you were saying earlier—even if you interpret that to mean, okay, well, the rock that Jesus is building his church on is Peter's faith.
圣奥古斯丁采取了那个立场，猜猜怎么着？ St. Augustine took that position, and guess what?
他仍然说彼得是教会的基础。 He still said that Peter was the foundation of the church.
好吗？ Okay?
所以，就像，即使你说，哦，好吧，它只是——它实际上 不是彼得；是彼得的信心是磐石，它仍然是彼得的信心。 So, like, even if you say, Oh, well, it's just—it's not actually Peter; it's Peter's faith who is the rock, it's still Peter's faith.
好吗？ Okay?
所以这是马太福音16:18-19，它不仅仅是，好的——彼得是基督教会的基础，因 为就像，好的，我们可以对此有一些奇怪的理解，这会在某种程度上否定那的重要性。 And so it's Matthew 16:18-19, and it isn't only just, okay—Peter's the foundation of Christ's church because it's like, okay, we can have some weird understanding of that that would just kind of nullify the significance of that.
但耶稣在关联中说什么？ But what does Jesus say in connection?
我要给你天国的钥匙，凡你——单数，单数动词或单数名词，抱歉——凡你在 地上所捆绑的，在天上也要捆绑；凡你在地上所释放的，在天上也要释放。 I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you—singular, singular verb or singular noun, sorry—whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
人们会说，哦，好吧，这同样的权柄在马太福音18 :15-19中也给了使徒们。好吧，你猜怎么着？ And people will say, Oh, well, this same power was given to the apostles in Matthew 18:15-19. Well, guess what?
是当他们作为一个群体行动时，他们才有那种捆绑和释放的权柄，因 为在马太福音18:15——抱歉，是20，马太福音18:15- 20，或者抱歉，天哪，18:15-20——我一直把数字搞混。 It's when they act as a group that they have that power of binding and loosing because in Matthew 18:15—sorry, it was 20, Matthew 18:15-20, or sorry, gosh, 18:15-20—I keep mixing the numbers around.
他正在谈论如果你的弟兄得罪你，你应该怎么做。 He's speaking about what you ought to do if your brother sins against you.
你私下去找他；如果他不听你的，你就带两三个 人去，好叫凭着两三个人的口，句句都可定准。 You go to him in private; if he doesn't listen to you, you bring two or three others so that the testimony of two or three witnesses all things might be established.
他不听那些见证人；然后你把它带到教会，如果他不听教会，这意味着什么？ He doesn't listen to those witnesses; then you bring it to the church, and if he doesn't listen to the church, what's the implication?
我们必须听从教会。 We have to listen to the church.
若是不听教会，就看他像外邦人和税吏一样。 If he doesn't listen to the church, let him be unto you as a tax collector and a heathen.
我对你们说，凡你们——复数——凡你们，你知道，那种随意的，凡你们在地 上所捆绑的，在天上也要捆绑；凡你们在地上所释放的，在天上也要释放。 And I say to you, whatever you all—plural—whatever y'all, you know, the kind of laid-back, whatever y'all bind, whatever you all bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you all loose shall be loosed in heaven.
但猜猜那里缺少什么？ But guess what's missing there?
钥匙。 The keys.
所以只有彼得被委托了钥匙的权柄。 So Peter alone is entrusted with the power of the keys.
在马太福音16:18-19中，只有他被给予了钥匙，他 单独拥有这种能力，可以捆绑和释放，并得到天上的批准。 He alone is given the keys in Matthew 16:18-19, and he has this capacity singularly to bind and loose with heavenly ratification.
只有在马太福音18:15-20中才再次提到的东 西——捆绑和释放，使徒们作为一个团体有能力做。 Something that is only mentioned—binding and loosing is only mentioned again in Matthew 18:15-20, which the apostles as a college have the capacity to do.
那么这对我来说充实了什么？ So what does this flesh out for me?
当教会行使她捆绑和释放的权柄时，这在马太福音18:15-20中显然涉及某种能力， 可以将人们排除在基督建立的这个社会之外，这个社会在捆绑和释放上得到了天上的批准。 When the church exercises her power of binding and loosing, which obviously in Matthew 18:15-20 involves some sort of ability to exclude people from this society that Christ has established with heavenly ratification in binding and loosing.
我应该早些提到这一点：我们一世纪的拉比术语，指的是公会禁止或允许某事的权柄。 I should have mentioned this earlier: our first-century rabbinic terms that refer to the power of the Sanhedrin to forbid or allow something.
所以无论是纪律，还是教义，对吧，关于信仰或道德， 基督给予教会这种权柄，并说它现在得到天上的批准。 So whether that be discipline, whether that be doctrine, right, on faith or morals, Christ gives this power to the church and says it has heavenly ratification now.
所以无论你是与作为钥匙持有者的彼得一起行动，还是与使徒团体一起 行动，教会都被赋予了这种能力，可以带着天上的批准来捆绑和释放。 So whether you operate with Peter as the possessor of the keys or the apostolic college together, there is this capacity given to the church to bind and loose with heavenly ratification.
对我来说，这听起来就明确地像教宗无误和教会无误。 To me, that just sounds explicitly like papal infallibility and ecclesial infallibility.
教会可以无误地发言的场合有三种：一，通过她的头，教宗，马太福音16:18-1 9；二，通过与她的头合一的主教团体，而不是离开她的头，因为谁是钥匙的持有者？ There are three occasions when the church can speak infallibly: one, through her head, the pope, Matthew 16:18-19; two, through the college of bishops in union with her head, not apart from her head, because who's the possessor of the keys?
彼得。 Peter.
所以他们必须与他们的头合一；他们必须一起做。 So they have to be in union with their head; they have to do it together.
凡你们在地上所捆绑的，在天上也要捆绑；凡你们在地上所释放的，在天上也要释放。 Whatever you all bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you all loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
所以它仍然是天上的批准。 So it's still heavenly ratification.
他们必须作为一个团体与他们的头一起做。 They have to do it together as a college with their head.
这就是大公会议的无误性。 That's the infallibility of ecumenical councils.
他们聚集在一起，捆绑和释放某些教义或纪律。 They come together and they bind and loose certain doctrines or disciplines.
好的，那么他们能够无误行动的第三种方式是什么？ Okay, so what's the third way that they can act infallibly?
每当他们分散在全地，教导一些必须被所有信徒相信的事情时，即使他们没有聚集在一起。 Whenever they're spread throughout the earth and they teach something as having to be believed by all the faithful, even when they're not gathered together.
所以这种情况必须进入圣灵的引导：约翰福音14章，约翰福音 16章，使徒行传15章，所有这些谈论圣灵活动的不同经文。 And so that kind of has to go into the guidance of the Holy Spirit: John 14, John 16, Acts 15, all these different passages that talk about the Holy Spirit's activity.
但对我来说，我就像，好的，教会被赋予了如此大的权柄，谁有能力行使那种权柄？ But to me, I'm just like, okay, there's such a great power accorded to the church, and who has the capacity to exercise that power?
是教会的牧者，要么是马太福音16:18-19中的彼得单独，要么是马太福音18: 15-20中作为团体的牧者，因为他说，凡你们在地上所捆绑的，在地上也要捆绑。 It's the pastors of the church, either Peter singularly in Matthew 16:18-19 or the pastors as a college in Matthew 18:15-20 because he says, Whatever you all bind on earth shall be bound on earth.
还有在路加福音，是路加福音10:16。他对教会的牧者说，听从你们的——那是另一个 复数——听从你们的就是听从我；弃绝你们的就是弃绝我；弃绝我的就是弃绝那差我来的。 And also in Luke, it's Luke 10:16. He's speaking to the pastors of the church, and he says, Whoever hears you all—that's another plural—whoever hears y'all hears me; whoever rejects y'all rejects me; and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
好的，那么基督命令我们什么？ Okay, so what are we commanded by Christ?
我们被命令听从教会，教会有捆绑和释放的权柄，以及教会的代表，无论 是教会的头，彼得，他被给予了天国的钥匙，还是作为整体行动的牧者。 We're commanded to listen to the church, who has the power to bind and loose, and the representatives of the church, whether the head of the church, Peter, who's been given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, or the pastors as a whole acting.
他们有能力代表教会发言，这就是为什么耶稣基督在 路加福音10:16中说，听从你们的就是听从我。 They have the capacity to speak on behalf of the church, and that's why Jesus Christ says in Luke 10:16, Whoever hears you hears me.
这是教导的教会和被教导的教会之间的区别。 This is the distinction between the church teaching and the church taught.
好的，所以在那些接受了圣秩圣事的人，他们是与他们的头，教宗，合一的主教团体的一部 分，他们有这种能力代表教会发言，捆绑教会，从教会释放事物，与其他人之间有区别。 Okay, so there's a distinction between those who have been given the sacrament of holy orders, who are a part of the college of bishops in union with their head, the pope, who have this capacity to speak on behalf of the church and to bind the church and to loose things from the church.
然后有一些人是教会的一部分，但不构成这个牧者或领导人的团体。 And then there are people who are a part of the church who don't make up this college of pastors or leaders.
那是被教导的教会，那是我们作为平信徒的位置。 That's the church taught, and that's our position as laity.
我们应该谦卑地接受教会的教导，我们听从它们，正如《教 理》所说，就像我们听从基督自己一样，因为猜怎么着？ We are to humbly receive the teachings of the church, and we listen to them, as the catechism says, as we listen to Christ himself because guess what?
这就是圣经所说的。 That's what Scripture says.
哪个新教宗派或教会曾经为自己声称过这一点？ Which Protestant denomination or church has ever claimed that for themselves?
不，他们总是只是淡化它——抱歉没有更好的词——他们只是淡化了这些经文。 No, they've always just washed it—sorry for lack of better—they've just washed down these passages.
他们只是概括它们。 They just generalize them.
哦，这只是在谈论福音的传讲，而且是有条件的，如果他们接受福 音，你可以说，好吧，如果你接受福音，那么你的罪就被赦免了。 Oh, this is just talking about the preaching of the gospel, and conditionally, if they accept the gospel, you can say, Well, if you accept the gospel, then your sins are forgiven.
哦，还有捆绑和释放？ Oh, and binding and loosing?
好吧，那只是谈论权柄，但如果你不符合神的道，你就没有真正的权柄。 Well, that just talks about authority, but you don't really have authority if you're not in line with the word of God.
所以你的权柄来自神的道。 And so your authority comes from the word of God.
所以神的道是唯一的权柄，如果你与神的道的权柄一致，那么你就有权柄。 So the word of God is the only authority, and if you're aligned with the authority of the word of God, then you have authority.
如果人们认为你与神的道一致，那么你就有权柄，你对他们有权柄。 And if people think that you align with the word of God, then you have authority, and you have authority over them.
但一旦你与神的道不一致，你就不再对他们有权柄，你也不能再强迫他们相信。 But the moment that you don't align with the word of God, you no longer have authority over them, and you can no longer oblige them to believe.
这真是太倒退了，它使这些谈论教会权柄的经文失效。 It's just so backwards, and it nullifies these passages that speak about the authority of the church.
听从你们的就是听从我；弃绝你们的就是弃绝我。 Whoever hears you hears me; whoever rejects you rejects me.
这就像，哇！ This is just like, wow!
我听到这个，我就像，这是什么情况？ I hear this, and I'm like, What in the world?
这些经文是什么时候进入我的圣经的？ When did these passages get in my Bibles?
就像，哦我的天哪！ Like, oh my goodness!
耶稣谈论解决你和你兄弟之间争端的方式和开除教籍。 Jesus talks about the way to resolve a dispute between you and your brother and excommunication.
他谈论它如何得到天上的批准，然后我们在使徒行传15章和稍早之前的犹 太主义者争议中看到这一点的实际实施，保罗和提摩太无法自己解决困难。 He's talking about how it has heavenly ratification, and then we see the practical implementation of this in the Judaizer controversy in Acts 15 and shortly before, where Paul and Timothy are unable to resolve the difficulty on their own.
由于他带来了几个见证人的证词，他不能自己解决，所以他们上耶路撒冷，把它带到教会。 And since he brought the testimony of a few witnesses, he's not able to resolve it on their own, so they go up to Jerusalem and they bring it to the church.
猜猜怎么着？ And guess what?
这不仅仅是所有平信徒和所有组成教会的人的会众会议。 It's not just some congregational meeting with all the laity and all the people who make up the church.
不是那样的。 It's not that.
是教会的领导者。 It's the leaders of the church.
是使徒和长老们聚会，决定，并向分散各处的整个教会发出。 It's the apostles and the elders who meet, who decide, and who send out to the entire church everywhere, dispersed everywhere.
圣灵和我们定意，这些是你们必须相信的。 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, and these are what you are obliged to believe.
这是一个感知并有信念的教会的行动，它被圣灵引导进入真理，并被基督的应许保护。 That is the action of a church who senses and who has the conviction that it's guided by the Holy Spirit into truth and protected by the promises of Christ.
所以，这一大段漫谈带我到了那个立场。 And so, big ramble there that brought me to that position.
我只能想象从只有圣经，对吧？ I can only imagine the sort of sensation or experience it must have been to go from just having the Bible, right?
可能是1,300页吧，我不知道。 Which is, I don't know, maybe 1,300 pages.
我不知道它如何取决于页面的大小和所有东西。 I don't know how it depends on the size of the page and everything.
只有这么多信息，现在拥有教父，会议，所有这些其他信息，数据落在你身上。 Just having this amount of information to now having the Fathers, the councils, all this other information, data dropped on you.
而这一切都回到，你知道，我认为像你和我这样的人在记忆教会会议和 教父以及所有这些事情上有高度成功的原因之一是因为我们熟悉圣经。 And it's all leading back to, you know, I think one of the reasons that people probably like you and me have a high degree of success in remembering Church councils and Church Fathers and all these things is because we're familiar with the Bible.
所以我们正在学习的所有这些事情，我能够将它插入 到一节圣经经文中，我可以在我的记忆中连接一切。 And so all these things that we're learning, I'm able to plug it into a Bible verse, and I can connect everything in my memory.
我确信你有同样的经历。 And I'm sure you have the same experience.
但那一定是难以置信的，就像，哦我的天哪，信仰 不仅仅是我在这1,300页中所拥有的，对吧？ But that just must've been incredible to be like, Oh my gosh, there's more to the faith than what I have in these 1,300 pages, right?
就像这1,300页有解释。它比这些页中的内容更深入。 Like there's explanations to these 1,300. It goes deeper than what's just in these.
我可以想象你的思想绝对被震撼了。 And like I can just imagine your mind being absolutely blown.
是的，不，肯定的。 Yeah, no, for sure.
而且，我思考得越多，就越不仅仅是了解更多关于公教信仰的事；它是了解新教信仰。 And like, the more I thought about it, the more like it wasn't just like learning more about Catholic beliefs; it's learning about Protestant beliefs.
抱歉，新教信仰，人们开始相信新教信仰的起源。 Sorry, Protestant beliefs, the origin when people started believing Protestant beliefs.
对我来说，直觉上，如果惟独圣经是真的，难道我们不期望信仰有系统性的呈现吗？ And how, to me, it's just like intuitively, like if sola scriptura is true, like wouldn't we expect something like a systematic presentation of the faith?
难道我们不期望，好的，这里正是教会应该如何组织；这里正是 你应该支付牧师多少钱；这里正是，你知道，这里是，你知道， 这是你如何在你的教会中进行商业会议，你知道，与牧师一起？ Wouldn't we expect, okay, well, here's exactly how the Church is supposed to be structured; here's exactly how much you pay your pastors; here's exactly how, you know, here's the, you know, this is how you do a business meeting in your Church, you know, with a pastor?
就像，我们会期望更多的清晰度。 Like, we would expect so much more clarity.
在我看来，我不知道，人们可能不同意，但如果惟独圣经 是真的，我们会期望圣经正典更早就固定下来，对吧？ In my opinion, I don't know, people might disagree, but like if sola scriptura were true, we would expect the biblical canon to be solidified much earlier, right?
我们会期望圣经被系统地呈现，或者至少有像附录或解释性文章之类的东西。 We would expect the Bible to be systematically presented or at least have like an appendix or like explanatory essays or something.
基本上，我想说的是，各种教会传统认为对形成他们的会众和提取那些他们视为圣经中明确 或隐含的教义所必需的东西，我们会期望这些东西在圣经本身中被启示，并从使徒传下来。 Basically, what I'm trying to say is the things that the various Church traditions see as necessary to forming their congregation and drawing out those doctrines which they see as explicit or implicit in Scripture, we would expect those things to be inspired in the Bible themselves and passed down from the apostles.
如果使徒真的打算让圣经像一本教会论或教会治理的手册，对吧？ If the apostles truly intended for the Scriptures to act like a manual to Church ecclesiology or Church government, right?
或者像圣事的管理或讲道，如果使徒真的打算让圣经只作为一些像 手册，像系统手册那样，你会期望其中的呈现更加系统地布局。 Or to like the administration of the sacraments or preaching, like if the apostles really intended the Bible to act as just some like manual, like systematic manual, you'd expect the presentation within there to be much more systematically laid out.
是的，说得好。 Yeah, that's well said.
是的，我想如果你把圣经给十个不同国家的十个不同的人，然后告诉他们，好 的，阅读这本书并以此为基础建立一个教会，你会得到十个完全不同的教会。 Yeah, I think if you gave the Bible to ten different people in ten different countries and you told them, Okay, read this book and start a church based off of it, you're going to get ten completely different churches.
是的。 Yeah.
单靠圣经不是——新教世界的一个修辞观点是，你给10个人一本 圣经，把他们留在一个岛上一年，他们中没有一个会成为公教徒。 The Bible alone is not – one of the points of rhetoric in the Protestant world was like you give 10 people a Bible and leave them on an island for a year, none of them is going to be Catholic.
就像你认为有人会——相信正确的，准确的三位一体和基督论教义吗？ It's like you think anyone is going to have like – believe in the proper, like, precise Trinitarian and Christological doctrines?
我的意思是，他们应该相信，但你真的认为圣经是以 这样的方式概述的，让他们得出你教会中的结论吗？ I mean, they should, but like you really think that the Scriptures are like outlined in such a way so as for them to like come to your conclusion in your church?
就像，天哪，宗教改革之前的人一定非常愚蠢。 Like, man, the people who lived before the Reformation must have been really stupid.
他们一定非常无知，就像他们不知道如何正确阅读圣经。 They must have been like so ignorant, like they didn't know how to read the Bible correctly.
但是感谢神，现在每个人都有文化了，所以我们可以 有所有这些不同的宗派，希望其中一个可能是对的。 But like, thank God everyone's literate now so that we can have like all these different denominations so that hopefully one of them might be right.
你知道，希望其中一个可能接近正确。 You know, hopefully one of them might be like close to being right.
就像，是的，那个论点就像你思考得越多，它就越像，哦等 等，也许对于基督徒生活，你确实需要比圣经更多的东西。 It's just like, yeah, that argument was like the more you think about it, the more it's just like, oh wait, maybe you do need something more than just the Bible for Christian life.
这几乎就像耶稣基督建立了一个教会，对吧？ It's almost like Jesus Christ established a Church, right?
多么新颖的想法，对吧？ What a novel idea, right?
为什么他没有想到那个，对吧？ Why didn't he think of that, right?
太棒了，伙计。 That's awesome, man.
抱歉我的讽刺，但这是我在这里对我过去的自己说话。 Sorry for the snark, but this is me talking to my former self right here.
这就是我，就像，五年前的我。 This is me, like, five years ago.
我就像，嘿你，让我们快速跟上节奏。 I'm just like, Hey you, let's bring it to speed real fast.
让我们把这个理清楚。 Let's get this straightened out.
是的，我喜欢那个。 Yeah, I love that.
我喜欢那个。 I love that.
你也能谈谈吗？ And can you talk too?
因为我知道关于圣餐有很多错误信息。 Because I know there’s a lot of misinformation about the Eucharist.
人们认为我们每天都在重新钉死基督。 People think that we’re like re-crucifying Christ every day.
人们认为我们是食人族。 People think that we’re cannibals.
那里有各种各样的错误信息，真的是对公教会的诽谤。 There’s all kinds of misinformation out there and really slander against the Catholic Church.
你从哪里开始的？ Where did you start with that?
从浸信会的角度来看，你对公教会的弥撒有什么看法？ Coming from a Baptist perspective, what did you think about the Catholic Mass?
我知道你从未参加过，直到你真的去参加了一个。 I know you’d never been to one until you did go to one.
是的，所以它总是有点像一个谣言，像，哦，那些公教徒，他们不是相信当他 们在星期日吃面包和果汁时，当它进入他们的胃时，它会变成基督的身体吗？ Yeah, so it was always kind of like a rumor, like, Oh, those Catholics, don't they believe that when they eat the bread and the juice on Sunday, it like turns into Christ's body when it hits their stomach?
所以，就像，如果他们呕吐或什么的，它就会像是肉和血的样子。 And so, like, if they were to throw up or something, it'd just be like the appearance of flesh and blood.
就像，你不会生病吗？ Just like, wouldn't you get sick?
你只是，你们这些食人族，你知道吗？ You just, you cannibals, you know?
就像，所以就像，它是这样一个神话，像是对它的一种奇怪理解。 Like, so like, it was such a myth, like a weird understanding of it.
你了解得越多，这是为什么安提阿的圣依纳爵是我的主保圣人的原因之一， 因为他写于很早很早的100年代，就像107，108年，你知道吗？ The more you learn about it, this is one of the reasons why St. Ignatius of Antioch is my patron saint, is because he wrote in the early, early, early 100s, like 107, 108, you know?
那些是保守的估计，对吧？ And those are conservative estimates, right?
他写信给七个不同的教会，他在谈论幻影说派，他说他们如何避开圣餐，因为他们不承认 它——也就是圣餐——他们不承认圣餐是成为人并被钉十字架的耶稣基督的肉，对吧？ And he wrote to seven different churches, and he was speaking about the Docetists, and he was saying how they abstain from the Eucharist because they don't confess it—that is, the Eucharist—they don't confess the Eucharist to be the flesh of Jesus Christ, who is made man and crucified, right?
我需要在这里准备好那段话。 And I need to have that passage ready over here.
我需要找到它并将它发布在我的Obsidian中，因为它是如此好的一段话。 I need to find it and post it in my Obsidian because it's such a good passage.
它就像是主要的事情之一：哦哇，人们相信圣餐真 的是基督的身体和基督的血，那么早就相信了？ It's like one of the main things: Oh wow, people believed that the Eucharist was really the body of Christ and the blood of Christ that early on?
天啊，他们一定不知道寓言或象征主义是什么。 Man, they must not have known what allegory or symbolism was.
他们一定就像有一些奇怪的，像，哦，这显然是象征性的。 They must have just like had some weird, like, Oh, this is obviously symbolic.
他们一定不知道那是什么，即使他们是使徒的门徒，你知道吗？ They must not have known what that was, even though they were the disciples of the apostles, you know?
就像，你了解到这一点，它就像，哦我的天哪。 Like, you learn about that, and it's like, Oh my goodness.
所以，是的，真的，阅读乔·赫施迈尔的书，《早期教会是公教会》，真正关注 的是高度建议的圣餐，三层教会层级，包括与你的主教团结的必要性，使徒继承 ，那些就像——你读圣依勒内的《反异端》，你实际上得到所有那些东西。 And so, yeah, really, reading Joe Heschmeyer's book, The Early Church Was the Catholic Church, what was really focused on highly suggested Eucharist, three-tier church hierarchy, including like the necessity to be united to your bishop, apostolic succession, and those are like—you read Against Heresy by St. Irenaeus, you practically get all those things.
但圣依纳爵也真的很好，而且真的很容易读。 But St. Ignatius is really good too and really easy read.
哦，洗礼，洗礼也是。 And oh, baptism, baptism too.
第一世纪的《十二使徒遗训》，就像，哦是的，好吧，显 然，你知道，新约中的作者认为洗礼只能通过浸没施行。 The Didache during the first century, it's like, Oh yeah, well, obviously, you know, the writers in the New Testament thought that baptism was only administered by immersion.
好吧，就像《十二使徒遗训》说，在三位一体公式中，把水倒在某人头上是有效的。 Well, it's like the Didache says that pouring water over someone's head in the Trinitarian formula is valid.
所以就像，那literally是在使徒活着的时候。 So it's just like, that's literally during the time when the apostles were alive.
所以，无论如何，圣餐，对我来说真正击中要害的是约翰福音第6章，约翰福音第6章的 结尾，耶稣明确地说，人若吃人子的肉，喝人子的血，就有永生，在末日我要叫他复活。 And so, anyways, Eucharist, what really hit it for me was John 6, the end of John 6, and Jesus says in no uncertain terms, Whoever eats the flesh of the Son of Man and drinks his blood shall have eternal life, or I shall raise him up on the last day.
他说那个大约六次。 He says that like six different times.
我literally在我的圣经中给它们编了号。 I literally numbered them in my Bible.
我就像，好的，一，二，三，就像他不同次数说，人 若吃人子的肉，喝人子的血，就有生命，就有永生。 I was like, Okay, one, two, three, like the different times he says, Whoever eats the flesh of the Son of Man and drinks his blood shall have life, or shall have eternal life.
哦，就是那样！ Oh, that's what it is!
你们若不吃人子的肉，不喝人子的血，就没有生命在你们里面，对吧？ Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you shall have no life within you, right?
所以我就像在读那段经文，我就像，嗯，这一定是比喻，因为除 了十二使徒外，所有的门徒都离开了他，说，这教训太难了。 And so I'm like reading that passage, I'm like, Hmm, this must be metaphorical because all his disciples except for the Twelve left him, saying, This is such a hard teaching.
我们怎么能吃他的肉，喝他的血呢？ How are we supposed to eat his flesh and drink his blood?
耶稣没有在后面追着他们说，伙计们，等等，那只是比喻！ And Jesus isn't running after them saying, Guys, wait, it was just metaphorical!
我要给你们面包和果汁，每季度喝和吃，就像一年四次。 I'm going to give you guys bread and juice to drink and eat quarterly, like four times a year.
那不是他在说的，对吧？ That's not what he was saying, right?
这在公教系统中如此连贯。 This fits so coherently within the Catholic system.
就像，让我震惊的是这些圣经段落竟然就出现在我的圣经中。 It's just like, it blows my mind how these passages of Scripture just appear in my Bible.
我以前从未听说过它们。 I've never heard of them before.
约翰福音第6章，我肯定以前读过约翰福音，但我想我只是跳过了这段耶稣告诉我们吃 他的肉，喝他的血的经文，还有人若吃我的肉，喝我的血，我父在末日要叫他复活。 John 6, I've definitely read through the Gospel of John before, but I guess I just passed over this passage where Jesus tells us to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, my Father shall raise him up on the last day.
所以绝对是约翰福音第6章，真的，约翰福音第6章就像是那个东西，因为你可以 去看建立的叙述，你可以看到，好的，耶稣说，「这是我的身体，这是我的血。」 So John 6 definitely, and really, John 6 was like the thing because you can go to the institution narratives and you can see, Okay, Jesus said, 'This is my body, this is my blood.'
但就像，我们可以说，好的，这是我，这是卡梅伦，我们在谈话，你知道吗？ But like, we can say, Okay, this is me and this is Cameron, and we're talking on, you know?
就像，我们可以以一种明显是比喻的方式使用那种语言。 Like, we can use that sort of language in a way that can be obviously metaphorical.
所以就像那样真的，对我来说，说，好的，这是或者是意味着是，你知道吗？ And so like that really, for me, saying, Okay, this is or is means is, you know?
我认为那就像一个常见的路德宗简洁的陈述：是就是是。 I think that's like a common Lutheran just kind of like pithy statement: Is means is.
好吗？ Okay?
我们相信是就是是。 We believe is means is.
所以，但对于约翰福音第6章，就像我可以看到有人如何尝试使这符合浸信会的理解。 So, but for John 6, it's just like I can see how someone can like try and make this fit in the Baptist understanding.
就像，别误会我的意思，新教徒，路德宗信徒相信真实临在，好吗？ And like, don't get me wrong, Protestants, Lutherans believe in the real presence, okay?
那很好。 That's fine.
英国圣公会信徒在某种意义上相信真实临在，取决于你是什么样的英国圣公会信徒。 Anglicans believe in the real presence in a sense, depending on what kind of Anglican you are.
就像，我明白，好吗？ Like, I get that, okay?
但我是从浸信会的角度来看的。 But I'm coming from a Baptist perspective.
我试图看这如何符合我的理解。 I'm trying to see how this fits in my understanding.
就像，我看不出如果耶稣没有设立圣餐以某种方式以真实实质的 方式向我们传达他的身体和血，我不知道这段经文如何有意义。 Like, I can't see how if Jesus didn't institute the Eucharist to somehow communicate to us his body and blood in a real substantial way, I don't know how this passage makes sense.
我不知道约翰福音第6章的教导周围的环境如何有意义。 And I don't know how the circumstances surrounding the teaching in John 6 makes sense.
他不只是在说，好的，吃只代表相信，吃他的肉 只意味着相信他的肉，因为门徒已经相信他了。 He's not just saying, Okay, eating just represents believing, and eating his flesh just means believing in his flesh because the disciples already believed in him.
在那里的门徒已经在听他和他的事工。 The disciples that were there were already listening to him and his ministry.
他们已经相信他的事工。 They already believed in his ministry.
所以如果你认为，哦，好吧，他真正的意思只是像吃他的肉和喝他的血 只是相信和来到基督面前的比喻，好吧，那不是跟随他的门徒所想的。 So if you think, Oh, well, what he really meant was just like eating his flesh and drinking his blood is just a metaphor for believing and coming to Christ, well, that's not what the disciples thought that were following him.
但他们接受了他的话。 But they accepted his words.
他们拒绝了他的话，因为他们不是属灵的人，他们离开了。 They rejected his words because they weren't spiritually minded, and they left.
他们不愿意看到这位在他们中间行了无数奇迹的明显的先知将如何为他们实现这一件事。 And they weren't willing to see how this obvious prophet who had been performing countless miracles among them would fulfill this one thing for them.
你知道，你认为他们连接点点：我是从天上降下来的吗哪，真正的吗哪， 不像你们的祖宗在旷野吃了吗哪还是死了，但凡吃这从天上降下来的粮的 人，就必得永生，我所要赐的粮，就是我的肉，为世人之生命所赐的。 And you know, you think that they connect the dots: I am the manna that has come down from heaven, the true manna, not like the manna that your fathers ate in the wilderness and died, but whoever eats of this bread that comes down from heaven shall have eternal life, and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.
就像，嗯，好的，我明白了。 Like, huh, okay, I get it.
你要给出你的肉。 You're going to give your flesh.
凡吃我肉的人——哇，等一下！ And whoever eats my flesh—whoa, wait a second!
你知道吗？ You know?
是的，那对我来说是一件大事。 Yeah, that was like a big thing for me.
但阅读教父著作，就像是如此明确。 But reading the Fathers, it's just like so explicit.
就像，教父著作中最明确的两件事：圣餐是基督的真实身体和真实血液，以及洗礼重生。 Like, two of the most explicit things in the Fathers: the Eucharist being the real body and real blood of Christ and baptismal regeneration.
它就在那里。 It's like so there.
它确实在那里，是的。 It's so there, yeah.
而且，不想显得自大，它在圣经中也很明显。 And like, without seeming like cocky, it's so there in Scripture too.
确实如此，特别是洗礼重生。 It so is, especially baptismal regeneration.
它确实在那里，是的。 It's so there, yeah.
但你知道，当你成长过程中被教导以特定方式理解圣经时，就会想，也许它不在那里。 But you know, when you grow up having this particular way of understanding the Scriptures taught to you, then it's like, Maybe it's not there.
也许有另一种方式理解彼得前书3:21：「洗礼现在拯救你们」。 Maybe there's another way to understand 1 Peter 3:21: 'Baptism now saves you.'
也许我们有另一种方式理解它，使它意味着洗礼不能拯救你。 Maybe there's another way for us to take that and for it to mean baptism doesn't save you.
你知道，如果你的神学明显且直接地被圣经的话语所 驳斥，而这个宗教仅仅基于圣经，那就很奇怪了。 You know, like, if your theology is like blatantly and flatly contradicted by the words of Scripture for a religion that is based upon the Scriptures alone, that's just weird.
这应该让你——不仅是彼得前书3:21，还有雅各书2:24 ——这应该让你感到，人不是单因着信得救，而是因着行为。 That should make you—not only 1 Peter 3:21, but James 2:24—that should make you feel, For a man is not saved by faith alone, but by works.
因为你们看到，人称义是因着行为，不是单因着信。 For you say that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
就是这样。 That's what it is.
抱歉，我弄乱了那段经文。 Sorry, I butchered that passage.
你看到这个，然后你说，你知道这一定意味着什么？ You see that and you say, You know what this must mean?
这一定意味着我们是单因着信称义，正是这段经文说我们不是的那件事，你知道吗？ This must mean that we're justified by faith alone, the exact thing that the passage says that we're not, you know?
所以这就是为什么，好吧，你真的必须对这些经 文施加很大的力量，才能让它们说出一些话。 And so that's why it's like, Okay, you really have to exert a lot of force on these passages in order for them to say something.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
是的，赞美神，伙计！ Yeah, praise God, man!
我很高兴你加入了团队。 I'm so happy that you're on the team.
哦是的，我很高兴你在这里，伙计。 Oh yeah, I'm so happy you're here, man.
我很高兴在这里，这太棒了。 I'm happy to be here, but this is great.
听着，嘿，我想让你离开这里。 Listen, hey, I want to get you out of here.
我知道你今天下午有事情要做，所以我们在这里结束吧。 I know you've got things going on this afternoon, so we'll wrap it up here.
但非常感谢你来到节目。 But thank you so much for coming on.
这太棒了。 This has been amazing.
我们可能需要再做一次，因为我感觉我还有17个其他问题我想回过头来问。 We may have to do this again because I feel like I've got 17 other questions I would love to run back to.
伙计，我很乐意再做一次。 Dude, I would love to do this again.
我们也必须在我的频道上做一个视频。 We have to do a video on my channel, too.
是的，是的，听起来很棒。 Yeah, yeah, that sounds great.
但是嘿，是的，简单地说，所有正在观看的人，你需要去查 看YouTube上的The Catechumen。 But hey, yeah, real quick, everybody who's watching, you need to go and you need to check out The Catechumen on YouTube.
我会把链接放在描述中。 I'll put the links in the description.
不过，你一定要看看这个人的视频。 You've got to check out this guy's videos, though.
他深入讲解并解释所有这些。 He goes really in-depth and explains all this.
有大量的信息，他综合了这些信息，使它简单，使它容易，而且他有一个很棒的故事。 There's a ton of information, synthesizes it, makes it simple, makes it easy, and he's got a great story.
我认为，他是公教会实质的活证据。 He's living proof, I think, to the substance of the Catholic Church.
但是Brayden，除了在YouTube上，你还想告诉他们去哪里关注你吗？ But Brayden, is there anything else you want to tell them to check you out besides just on YouTube?
他们还可以在哪里联系到你，或者你想让他们做什么？ Anywhere else they can get a hold of you, or what do you want them to do?
是的，你们可以做的是，如果你还没有订阅Cameron Riker，现在就去订阅。 Yes, what you guys can do is, if you're not subscribed to Cameron Riker, go subscribe right now.
点赞这个视频，评论，然后去点赞他所有其他的视频并观看所有的视频。 Like this video, comment, and go like all the rest of his videos and watch all of them.
这就是我想说的。 That's what I wanted to say.
好的，我喜欢它。 All right, I love it.
太棒了。 It was awesome.
我喜欢它。 I love it.
神祝福你，伙计。 God bless you, man.
是的，这太有趣了。 Yeah, this was so much fun.
但是嘿，我也得离开了。 But hey, I got to get going here too.
但我们肯定很快会再次交谈。 But we'll talk again soon for sure.
神祝福，Braden。 God bless, Braden.
再见，伙计。 See you, man.