大约四十年前，一次主日讲道中的随口一语，引发了史考特 ·韩开始一场智识探寻，从而改变了他和他家人的人生。 Nearly 40 years ago, an offhand remark in a Sunday sermon launched Scott Hahn on an intellectual quest that would change his life and the life of his family.
那究竟是什么样的探寻，他又找到了什么答案？ What was that quest, and what answers did he find?
今天，我们将与方济各大学神学教授、同时也是新书《第四杯：揭开最后的晚餐 与十字架的奥秘》作者的史考特·韩博士，一同讨论这些问题以及更多内容。 Today, we'll discuss those questions and more with Dr. Scott Hahn, professor of theology here at Franciscan and author of the new book, The Fourth Cup: Unveiling the Mystery of the Last Supper and the Cross.
我是鲍勃·赖斯博士，任教于俄亥俄州斯托本维尔的方济各大学教理学。您现在正 在观看「Franciscan University Presents」。 I'm Dr. Bob Rice, professor of catechetics at Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio, and you're watching Franciscan University Presents.
请继续收看。 Stay with us.
欢迎来到「Franciscan University Presents」。 Welcome to Franciscan University Presents.
我是主持人鲍勃·赖斯博士，在斯托本维尔的方济各大学教授教理学 。今天我们要讨论《第四杯：揭开最后的晚餐与十字架的奥秘》。 I'm your host, Dr. Bob Rice, a catechetics professor here at Franciscan University of Steubenville, and we're talking about The Fourth Cup: Unveiling the Mystery of the Last Supper and the Cross.
和我一起的还有我们固定的讨论成员：方济各大学系统神学教授瑞吉斯·马丁 博士，以及特邀讨论成员、同样是方济各大学神学教授的威廉·牛顿博士。 I'm joined by our regular panelist, Dr. Regis Martin, professor of systematic theology here at Franciscan University, and guest panelist Dr. William Newton, professor of theology here at Franciscan University.
我们很高兴邀请到史考特·韩博士来担任特别来宾。 We're pleased to welcome to the guest chair Dr. Scott Hahn.
韩博士是方济各大学神父迈克尔·斯坎伦圣经神学及新福传讲座教授。 Dr. Hahn holds the Father Michael Scanlon Chair of Biblical Theology and the New Evangelization at Franciscan University.
他创办并担任圣保禄中心的主席，是深受欢迎的演讲者，也著有数十本畅销书， 其中就包括他近期的一本著作《第四杯：揭开最后的晚餐与十字架的奥秘》。 He is the founder and president of the St. Paul Center, a popular speaker, and a best-selling author of dozens of books, including one of his most recent, The Fourth Cup: Unveiling the Mystery of the Last Supper and the Cross.
史考特，很高兴你能来到我们节目。 Scott, it's great that you're here.
谢谢！ Thanks!
我们都是你的忠实粉丝，非常感谢你抽出时间来这里。 We're all big fans of yours, and we appreciate you making time to come down here.
那么，跟我们介绍一下——我们先讲讲这个概念—— 「The Fourth Cup」到底是什么？ Hey, tell us about—why don't we just introduce the idea—what is the Fourth Cup?
其实，「The Fourth Cup」指的就是犹太逾越节的四重结构 ，犹太人在第一世纪如此庆祝，到现在正统犹太人还是以同样的方式庆祝。 Well, the Fourth Cup refers to the fourfold structure of the Jewish Passover as it was celebrated in the first century and as it's still celebrated in the 21st century by Orthodox Jews.
对我而言，这原先是个未知领域；我是在个人研究的过程中才发现的。 It was something unknown to me; it was something I discovered as part of my own personal research.
在神学院最后一个学期，我感觉自己好像成了侦探一般。 I was feeling like a detective one semester at the end of my seminary career.
我刚参加完圣枝主日的礼拜，当时我最喜欢的传 道人对基督受难的经文做了一篇精彩的讲道。 I had just come back from a Palm Sunday service where my favorite preacher had delivered a wonderful sermon on the Passion narrative.
当他讲到《约翰福音》第十八章和第十九章，第28到30节时，他提到我们十分熟 悉的一处：耶稣「知道各样的事已经成了，为要使经上的话应验，就说：『我渴了。 』有一个器皿盛满了醋；他们就拿牛膝草蘸满了醋，送到他口，」耶稣于是喝了。 When he got to John 18 and John 19, verses 28 to 30, he was covering very familiar ground where Jesus, seeing that all was now finished, said to fulfill the Scripture, I thirst, and there was a bowl full of sour wine there with a hyssop branch, and they lifted it to his lips, and he drank.
耶稣喝完之后就说：「成了！」 And when he drank it, he said, It is finished.
那位传道人接着问了一个修辞性的问题，我们都以为 他会给出答案，那就是：「成了」的究竟是什么？ The preacher asked a rhetorical question that we all thought he was prepared to answer, and that is, What is finished?
到底是什么？ What is it?
耶稣在说什么呢？ What is Jesus talking about?
我当时坐在那里想：这并不难吧。 And I'm sitting there thinking, well, that's not hard.
我的意思是，这是在说我们的救赎嘛。 I mean, it’s our redemption.
这是我们得救的工作——这就是「成了」的含义。 It’s the work of our redemption—that’s what’s finished.
他似乎看透了我的心思，就说：「如果你认为那是耶稣的救赎之工，就再想想吧，因为在《 罗马书》4章25节中『复活是为叫我们称义』，既然祂还没有复活，就还不算完成。」 And he must have been reading my mind because he said, Well, if you think it’s Jesus' redemptive work, think again, because in Romans 4:25, He was raised for our justification, and since he’s not resurrected yet, it’s not finished yet.
所以那一定是别的事情。 So it must be something else.
但那究竟是什么，我也不知道。 But what it is, I don’t know.
于是他又回到他的讲道稿上。 And so he went back to his sermon notes.
而我就不这么干了。我忍不住想打电话——你不能在没准 备好答案的时候提出一个问题，尤其是那样的好问题。 I didn’t. I would just like grab a call—you can’t ask a question you’re not ready to answer, especially a good one like that.
所以，当我和金伯利回到公寓后，我几乎用了一整天来思考。这是好多年前的事 ，当时是1982年，我神学院最后一年。那么，那是你还没加入教会之前吗？ And so I spent literally the rest of the day, when I got back to my apartment with Kimberly, and this was years ago; this is when I was in my last year at seminary in 1982. So before you came into the Church?
对，还没加入！ Before!
我是1986年才加入教会的，就在毕业之前，也在我准备成为长老会牧师之前。 I came into the Church in '86. I came into the Church right before graduation and right before ordination as a Presbyterian pastor.
那时我就开始像电视剧里彼得·佛克扮演的柯南伯一样去追查 线索，因为我想回答一个在初听时感觉再明显不过的问题。 I went on a—it felt like Columbo, the detective, you know, Peter Falk played—because I’m looking for clues to answer a question that I thought was a self-evident one when I first heard it.
我慢慢意识到，要等一下，你得放在整个脉络里去看。 I began to realize that, wait a second, you know, you’ve got to look at that in context.
耶稣被钉十字架正值逾越节期间，所以我回头去研究《出埃及记》第十二章 所记载的首次逾越节，我对那段经文本来就蛮熟，但我对第一世纪犹太人如 何在耶路撒冷的楼房与耶稣、门徒及其他朝圣者共度逾越节不太熟悉。 Jesus' crucifixion is taking place at the time of the Passover, so I went back to Exodus 12 to study the first Passover, which I pretty well knew, but I wasn’t familiar with the first-century Passover the way the Jews would have celebrated in the Upper Room with Jesus and the disciples and all the other pilgrims in Jerusalem.
我就是在那时，通过一位拉比大卫·多布（他是牛津大学的教授）所写的《The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism》，发现了线索。 And that’s where I discovered, through the writings of a rabbi, a professor at Oxford, David Dobb, who wrote a book called The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism.
他从一位拉比的角度去看新约圣经，看到许多基督徒通常看不见的东西。 So he’s looking at the New Testament through the eyes of a rabbi and seeing all kinds of things that Christians wouldn’t see.
他给我指出的一点是，当你从十字架往回看到楼房的场景，也就是从受难 日回到圣周四的时候，就会发现耶稣在最后的晚餐中使用了几次杯子。 And the one thing he showed me was that when you back up from the Cross to the Upper Room, from Good Friday to Holy Thursday, as it were, you can see that there are multiple cups that are being used in the Last Supper.
《路加福音》第22章也提到了这些。 Luke 22 refers to those.
你也可以看出，耶稣为圣餐所祝圣的那杯就是「祝福之杯」。 You can also tell that the cup that Jesus consecrates for the Eucharist is the Cup of Blessing.
保罗在《哥林多前书》10章16节里提到：「我们所祝福的杯，岂不是同 领基督的血么？」多布身为一位拉比指出，这里耶稣所祝圣的就是第三杯。 From what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:16, The cup of blessing, the cup which we bless, the cup of blessing is a participation in the blood of Christ, Da points out, as a rabbi, that he's consecrating the third cup.
接着，耶稣宣告说：祂不会再尝葡萄汁，直到祂在天国里与他们一起喝新的那一杯。 And then he announces that he’s not going to taste of the fruit of the vine again until he drinks it new with them in the Kingdom.
之后，他们唱了诗，就是「大哈利勒」，然后就出发前往客西马尼园。 And then they sing the hymn, the great Hallel, and then they go out to the Garden of Gethsemane.
对外邦基督徒的读者来说似乎没什么特别，但对拉比来说，耶稣和 门徒已共饮了被祝圣的第三杯，也唱完了「大哈利勒」，却并没有 喝第四杯——也就是「哈利勒之杯」，它才是逾越节礼仪的高潮。 Nothing seems out of the ordinary to Gentile Christian readers, but to a rabbi, they shared the third cup, which he consecrated; they sang the great Hallel, but they never had the fourth cup—the Hallel cup, which is the climax of the Passover liturgy.
就好比你邀请一位犹太人参加弥撒，他并不会注意到如果 神父奇怪地忘记了祝圣的话，或是省略了领圣餐的礼仪。 It would be like inviting a Jew to a Mass, and he wouldn’t notice if your priest somewhat oddly forgot the words of consecration or omitted the rite of communion.
但任何一个公教徒都会立刻发觉。 But, of course, every Catholic would notice.
所以，当我透过拉比的眼光去看时，就意识到：等等，他跳过了第四杯。 And so I’m looking at it through a rabbi’s eyes and I’m realizing, wait a second, you know, he skipped the fourth cup.
为什么？ Why?
也许是因为那些即将发生的悲惨事件让他心绪难安，但耶稣似乎一直保持镇定，也 清楚地宣告自己：「我再也不喝这葡萄汁，直到有一天我在天国和你们一同喝。」 Well, maybe he was just too bothered about all of the tragic events that we knew were about to unfold, but he seemed to be very much in control of himself, and he also seemed to express himself so clearly: I am not going to taste of the fruit of the vine again until I drink it with you in the Kingdom.
听起来好像在提醒他们：「我不会喝你们所预期我会喝的那一杯。」 It sounds as though he’s warning them that I’m not going to drink what you’re expecting me to drink.
这就引发了我的疑问，于是我继续思考，跟随耶稣去到橄榄山，看见祂三次俯伏在 地祈祷：「父啊，把这杯挪去」，又一次呼求：「阿爸，父啊，把这杯挪去。」 And so it raised the question, and then I pursued it further simply by following him out to the Mount of Olives where he falls on his face and prays three times, Take this cup, Father, and then again, Abba, Father, take this cup.
我原以为那只是对先知以赛亚、耶利米的一种模糊呼应，但后来我意识 到，对像大卫·多布这样的犹太拉比读者而言，这必定与那四杯有关— —他们已经喝了三杯，没有喝第四杯——第三杯是耶稣所祝圣的。 I always thought that that was some kind of vague allusion to the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah, but I began to realize that, no, again for Jewish readers like Rabbi Dobb, this must be somehow connected to the four cups—three of which they drank, the fourth they didn’t—the third he consecrates.
所以，耶稣在最后一次庆祝逾越节，但祂以神的羔羊之身份来 完成这礼仪，将旧的转变成新的，而那转变当时还没有完成。 And so he’s celebrating the Passover one last time, but he’s fulfilling it as the Lamb of God by transforming the old into the new, and that hasn’t happened yet.
因此，当你看到兵丁来到时，彼得拔刀，耶稣在园中第 四次提到：「我父所给我的那杯，我岂可不喝呢？」 And so when you see the soldiers arrive, Peter draws the sword, and Jesus says a fourth time there in the garden, Shall I not drink the cup which the Father has for me?
祂心里一直挂念着那杯。 He’s got cup on the mind.
当我读你的书时，听你这样讲，好像很明显啊。 When I read your book, as you’re talking about it, it seems so obvious.
我想当时别人并没这么认为，不过教父们有没有提到这个？ I don’t think it did to anybody, but did the Church Fathers?
我的意思是，他们与犹太传统的渊源比我们更深。 I mean, they were obviously much more connected to the Jewish roots than we are.
所以，显然有一位现代的犹太学者在牛津大学，对此进行了深入研究。 So there’s obviously a Jewish scholar of modern times in Oxford who kind of was honing in on that.
教父们有没有对此有所洞察？ Did the Church Fathers have some sort of insight in that?
例如，撒狄的梅利图在《Peri Pascha》中堪称是逾越节 预表的权威，但他其实并没有任何对逾越节礼仪传统席德尔的了解迹 象；那礼仪不仅包含逾越节筵席，也是一种与祭献相结合的共融。 You know, Melito of Sardis in Peri Pascha is the master of the Passover typology, but he doesn't actually show any trace of awareness of the traditional Jewish practice of the Seder of the Passover liturgy, which includes the meal but is also sacrificial communion.
我指的是，从公元70年耶路撒冷圣殿被毁之后，一切都变成了「圣殿后的犹太教」。 I mean, in a certain sense, with the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 AD, everything is post-Temple Judaism.
于是人们从圣殿转向会堂，从大祭司转向拉比，从献祭转向研读经卷，也从献祭转向讲道。 So you move from the temple to synagogues, you move from a chief priest to rabbis, you move from a sacrifice to scrolls, you move from a sacrifice to sermons.
等到公元二、三、四世纪时，在教父的文献中，几乎见不 到他们对于耶稣所行的传统逾越节礼仪形式有任何了解。 And by the time you get to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries, the patristic sources don't show really hardly any awareness of the traditional form of the Passover as Jesus did.
这是否部分源于你在经文中读到的逾越节并没有提到杯子？ Is that partly because the Passover that you read in the Scripture doesn’t have the cup?
后来才在犹太传统中发展出来吗？ And it develops later in the Jewish tradition?
因为在《出埃及记》第十二章里的逾越节是家庭礼仪。 So the Passover in Exodus 12 is a domestic liturgy.
当时他们仍在埃及受奴役，却要在前往自由之前先在那里庆祝。 You’re celebrating it in Egypt while you’re still enslaved, en route to freedom.
可是一旦出了埃及，在应许之地安顿下来之后，这个礼仪显然会从家宅迁 移到圣殿，从家中长子与父亲担任祭礼，变成由大祭司和利未人负责。 But by the time you get out and get settled in the land, the liturgy is obviously going to change from your own family dwellings to the temple, from fathers and their firstborns to the chief priests and the Levites.
对我而言，原始礼仪的转变正是让我兴致盎然之处 ，而教父们几乎把注意力都放在圣经的预表上。 The adaptation of the original liturgy is precisely what fascinated me much more than it fascinated the Fathers, because they were focusing almost exclusively on the biblical typology.
嗯，你像是在五分钟里把一切都说透了，可事实上这一路耗费了不少时日。 Well, you’re sort of crystallizing everything in the space of about five minutes, but it really took a long time.
让我来回顾一下时间轴：1982年你听到了那篇 令你困惑的讲道，四年后，你成为一位公教徒。 I mean, let’s revisit the chronology: 1982, you hear the sermon that baffles you, and then four years later, you become Catholic.
在那往大马士革的路上肯定发生了一些事，那是什么？ Something happened en route to that Damascus, and what was it?
你是怎么让这个问题在心中逐渐发酵的？ How did you marinate this question?
是的，你指出了一个很显然的问题。回头去看，我才意识到，答案其 实就摆在明处—it’s been hiding in pla in view—but我和几乎所有其他人一样，都没注意到。 Well, you know, you’re pointing out the obvious question because, you know, looking back in hindsight, I realized that the answer was hiding in plain view, but I had overlooked it like practically everybody else had.
我首先要克服的是那种把最后的晚餐与逾越节彻底切割开的历史批判学成见。 The first thing I had to overcome was the bias of historical-critical scholarship that simply dissociates the Last Supper from the Passover.
二十世纪，多数圣经学者会说：「不，并不是逾越节；那只是 福音作者把当时最后晚餐的场景，硬套在逾越节上而已。」 The majority of biblical scholars in the 20th century would say, No, there is no Passover; that’s just something that the evangelists are kind of superimposing upon whatever they were doing in the Last Supper.
后来出现了一位德国学者约阿希姆·耶雷米亚斯，他写了《耶稣的圣餐言语》这本书。 And then along comes a German scholar, Joachim Jeremias, who writes The Eucharistic Words of Jesus.
身为当时世界上首屈一指的历史批判学家，他颠覆了那个 定论，指出：「不，证据实际上支持福音作者的说法。」 As a historical critic, one of the greatest in the world, he overturns that settled conclusion by showing, No, the evidence actually points in favor of it being what the Gospel writers say.
这样我便迈过了第一个门槛：那的确是逾越节，正如《公教会教理》第1340条所说。 随后，我再看《出埃及记》第十二章的逾越节时也明白，到楼房的场景就变得不一样了。 So I got over the first hurdle: it is a Passover, like the Catechism states in 1340. Then, looking at the Passover in Exodus 12, I’m realizing, okay, but it’s different in the Upper Room.
在那里用了好几杯酒，但《出埃及记》第十二章 并没有提到过这些杯。这些杯是从哪里来的？ There are multiple cups that aren’t mentioned in Exodus 12. Where do the cups come from?
拉比大卫·多布给出了确切解释，而且我也发现了其他相关研究，但他是最明确的一个。 他特别指出了第四杯没有被饮用，并且在他书中以「未饮的第四杯」为小标题讲了这点。 Rabbi Dobb nails it, and I found others too, but he was the clearest, and he was the one who pointed out the omission of the fourth cup, as he called this one section of his book that was the subheading: The Omission of the Fourth Cup.
哎呀！ Huh!
他也把这事和耶稣在客西马尼园的祈祷联系起来，但和其他人一样，他只是说：「 嗯，第四杯可能就是耶稣打算在末了才饮的，因为他说过他不会再尝葡萄汁。」 And he also connects it to the prayer of Jesus in Gethsemane, but like others, he just says, Well, the fourth cup must be what Jesus plans to drink at the end of time, because he’s not going to taste of the fruit of the vine.
确实，他们在苦路上给耶稣喝那掺了没药的酒时，祂拒绝了。 And sure enough, when they offer him the wine mingled with myrrh up the Via Dolorosa, he refuses it.
四部福音都提到有人给祂喝醋，但在马太、马可 、路加这三卷里，没明确说耶稣到底有没有喝。 All four evangelists point out that they’re offering him sour wine, but Matthew, Mark, and Luke don’t tell us whether he drank.
要是我们只根据那三卷对观福音，大概会猜祂没喝，因为祂曾说过祂不会喝。但约 翰福音则不同，因为约翰是唯一的见证人，他不仅告诉我们耶稣有没有喝，还特别 强调：「耶稣知道各样的事已经成了，为要应验经上的话，就说：『我渴了。』」 And if all we had to go on were the three Gospels—the Synoptic—we’d probably say he probably didn’t because he said he wouldn’t. But John is the only eyewitness, and John doesn’t just tell us whether he drank or not; he emphasizes, Jesus, knowing that all was finished, said to fulfill the Scripture, 'I thirst.'
这话触动了我：祂已经痛苦、饥饿、干渴了好几个小时。 It struck me: well, that guy had been suffering from pain and hunger and thirst for hours.
为什么多半快要断气时，祂才会说：「我渴了」呢？ Why, moments before he’s dead, is he saying, I thirst?
就是为了应验经上的话。 Well, to fulfill the Scripture.
而根据约翰的记载：「耶稣尝了那醋，就说：『成了！』」随后约翰继续写到耶稣就死了。 And when John says, When he drank of the sour wine, he said, 'It is finished,' and then John goes on to notice that he dies.
那些兵丁打断了与耶稣同钉的强盗腿骨，却没打断耶稣的骨头，因为 祂已经死了，也正应验了「他的骨头，一根也不可折断」的经文。 They break the bones, the legs of the thieves, but not Jesus because he’s already dead, thus to fulfill the Scripture, Not a bone of his shall be broken.
只有约翰——唯一的目击者，且只在约翰福音第十九章里，我们才看到与《 出埃及记》12章46节相对应：他们不可献上一只残缺或有残疾的羔羊。 Only John, the only eyewitness, and only in John 19 do you have Exodus 12:46—that you couldn’t offer as evidence a passive or sacrificed, a gimpy or crippled lamb.
所以，一切线索都像车辐一样汇集到中心——基督。 And so all of these things converged like spokes on the hub of a wheel, which was Christ.
可与此同时，我也只能说这些线索其实都摆在那里了，我 只是把它们汇总起来，当时我还为自己感到非常得意。 But at the same time, I had to say these clues are out there, and I gathered them together, and I was really proud of myself.
哦，哇，你找到了答案！ Oh wow, you found the answer!
然后我才意识到，这些结论所带来的意义，早已深深植 根于公教会有关圣餐的传统，以及公教会的弥撒之中。 And then I began to realize that the implications of the answers were already embedded in the Catholic tradition of the Eucharist and the Catholic Mass.
嘿，你也知道，柯南伯大概四十五分钟就能破案。 Well, you know, Columbo cracks the case in about 45 minutes.
我的意思是，你可不止是柯南伯啊。 I mean, you’re more than Columbo.
不仅是因为你没穿风衣，而是你对这个话题真正满怀热情。 I mean, not just because you don’t wear a trench coat, but you’re impassioned about this.
这不仅仅是思辨上的探讨，更是与你的信仰旅程相连。 This is not just an intellectual exercise; this is a piece with a pilgrimage.
你正在经历一段旅程，努力寻找真理，并带着一种单纯谦卑的热忱。 You’re on a journey; you’re trying to find the truth, and you’re fired with a certain poverty of spirit.
你想知道究竟发生了什么，以及那意味着什么？ You want to know what really happened, what does it mean?
我还想说，这个过程真的让人感到兴奋，也让人更有胆量去追求。 And I would also say this: that it was exciting; it was emboldening.
说实话，这也确实让我有点飘飘然。 You know, it certainly puffed up my head more than a little.
然而另一方面，当你最终走到终点时，你会发现，你 并不只是像老侦探剧里的柯南伯那样跟着线索瞎跑。 But on the other hand, when you finally get to the end, you realize that you weren’t just following clues like Columbo on an old detective show.
而是一路在拾着有人特意为你留下的蛛丝马迹，引导你回到那位主身 边；他赐给我一个礼物，而我之前却一直把它当作是自己的功劳。 You were picking up crumbs on a trail that were deliberately left for you to find to trace it to the Master, who gave me a gift that I had been taking credit for all along.
直到我真正发现了它，我才意识到，这完全是出于恩典。 Until I found it, then I realized this is pure grace.
阿们！ Amen!
而那已经是四十年前的事了。 And that was 40 years ago.
是啊，没错。 Yeah, that’s right.
你最近出了本书，而自那时候起，你肯定持续更深入地钻研这个奥秘，对吗？ So there’s a book that you just came out with, and certainly since that time, you’ve continued to dive deeper into this mystery, right?
我是说，我可能用几十种方式讲过这主题，前前后后加起来大概有上百次了。 I mean, I’ve given this talk probably close to 100 times in close to 100 ways.
每次讲出来都有些不同，因为我从未正式把它写下来过。 It always comes out differently because I’ve never written it up.
嗯，我确实在九十年代时，把它写在《The Father Keeps His Promises》的第十二章里；后来布兰特·皮特里也在他的《 Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist》里引用过部分内容，我也很荣幸帮那本书写了序。 Well, I wrote it up as Chapter 12 of The Father Keeps His Promises back in the '90s, and Brant Pitre kind of adapted it in his book, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist, as well, that I was privileged to write a foreword to.
有一些其他学者也对它作了评析、扩充和强化，诸如此类。 A number of other scholars have critiqued it and advanced it and strengthened it and that sort of thing.
不过当我的出版商问我：「我们能不能把这个出成一本书？」 But you know, when my publisher asked me, Can we put out the book?
我就说：「当然可以啊。」 I’m like, Yeah.
可是一旦我动手写书，我就会参考我以前多次演讲的内容和记录稿。 But whenever I work on a book, I always draw from my talks that I’ve given many times and the transcripts.
然后我就想：「我可有好多演讲记录可用，要展开的话可能会写成一本大部头啊。」 And I’m like, I have more transcripts to draw from for this one; this could be a big, big book.
于是，我重新翻阅了那些讲稿、记录等等，最后才把它整合起来。 And so when I went through the talk and all the transcripts and this sort of thing, it came together.
把这个一路纠缠了我不止一年的思考过程做一个了结，让 我相当兴奋，而且我发觉也吸引许多其他人一路关注。 It was kind of exciting to bring closure on a process that had not only enveloped me for over a year but has also seemed to enchant a lot of other people along the way.
我还记得当年我在格罗夫城学院担任校长助理的时候。 I remember going back to when I was an assistant to the president of Grove City College.
那时我还在两座长老会教会里服事。 I was still working at two Presbyterian churches.
我知道自己迟早要走向英国圣公会、东正教，或 者投身公教会，但当时我也没确定是哪一个。 I knew I was headed either Anglican, Orthodox, or Catholic; I just didn’t know which.
可是我开始跟一些神学专业的大学生分享这些事，其中有几个很优秀的学生。 But I was sharing this with a number of my college kids, the better ones who were theology majors.
其中一个曾经是公教徒，但后来离开了公教会。他就像一道激光一 样盯着我问：「难道你看不出来这么研究下去会走向哪里吗？」 One of them was an ex-Catholic, and he was the one like a laser: Can’t you see where this is leading?
我就说：「不，我没看出来。」结果除了他，其他人都已经加入了公教会，你知道吗？ And I’m like, No. And all of them but him have come into the Church, you know?
所以，这对我帮助很大，而且看来对许多其他人也有很大的帮助。 So it seemed to help me a lot; it seemed to help a lot of other people a lot.
因此，我非常感谢我们的主，让我有机会将这一切写下来。 And so I’m grateful to our Lord for the privilege of writing it up.
好的，感谢神！ Well, praise God!
我们还有很多内容要讨论，请继续收看接下来的「Franc iscan University Presents」。 Well, we have so much more to talk about, so stay with us as Franciscan University Presents continues.
正如耶稣的祭献并不是始于加尔瓦略山，而是从逾越节时在楼房 内开始一样；同样，逾越节也并没有在离开那楼房时就结束。 Just as Jesus' sacrifice doesn’t begin on Calvary, but the Calvary sacrifice begins in the Upper Room during Passover, so the Passover doesn’t end when they leave the Upper Room.
逾越节要到耶稣在十字架上喝那杯酒时才算真正结束。 The Passover doesn’t end until Jesus receives the wine on the Cross.
那一刻才是逾越节的完成，也就是耶稣将旧约逾 越节转化为我们称作圣餐的新约逾越节的时刻。 That is the consummation of the Passover, and that is the point at which Jesus finishes the transformation of the Old Covenant Passover into the New Covenant Passover that we call the Eucharist.
在斯托本维尔的方济各大学，您会发现信仰与理性、智慧与恩典、怜悯与真理。 At Franciscan University of Steubenville, you’ll find faith and reason, wisdom and grace, mercy and truth.
在这里，您将跟随世界一流的学者和实践经验丰富的老师，他们忠于基督和祂的教会。 You’ll study under world-class scholars and seasoned practitioners who are committed to Christ and his Church.
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欢迎回到「Franciscan University Presents」。 Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
我们正与史考特·韩博士讨论「The Fourth Cup」这个主题。 We’re talking about The Fourth Cup with our guest, Dr. Scott Hahn.
史考特，我们之前提过，要理解「The Fourth Cup」 ，很大一部分在于了解逾越节筵席，也就是「Seder」餐叙。 Scott, so much of understanding the Fourth Cup, as we talked about in the earlier segment, is understanding the Passover meal and the Seder meal.
对于许多观众来说，也许不知道那具体是什么样子。若放在今天的公教 徒身上，更深入了解、甚至参与那种逾越节庆典会带来哪些益处呢？ For many of our audience who might not have any real familiarity with what that looks like, what is the benefit of a deeper understanding of that, or even potentially celebrating that for a Catholic today?
这里分为三个层次：在《出埃及记》第十二章记载的 原初逾越节、犹太人的Seder餐，以及圣餐。 There are three stages here: the original Passover in Exodus 12, the Jewish Seder meal, as well as the Eucharist.
让我们先谈前两个。 So let's take the first two.
《出埃及记》第十二章里，通过摩西为以色列众人颁布的仪式其实相对简单。 You know, in Exodus 12, the ritual prescribed by our Lord through Moses for all of Israel is rather simple.
选取一只羔羊，要公的、没有残疾，也不可折断它的任何骨头，然后你宰杀这只羔羊。 You take a lamb, a male lamb, unblemished, with no broken bones, and you just slaughter the lamb.
接着，你拿牛膝草蘸羊血，涂在门框上。 Then you take a hyssop branch and you sprinkle the blood on the doorpost.
然后，你把羔羊烤熟，全家围坐在桌边，一同吃这只烤羔羊。 Next, you roast the lamb, and you gather as a family around the table and you eat that roasted lamb.
他们当时还得站着吃，手持手杖，束上腰带，随时 准备在摩西的带领和圣灵的引导下逃离为奴之地。 You do so standing up, with staff in hand, your loins girded, ready to flee to freedom under the leadership of Moses and the guidance of the Spirit.
但宰杀羔羊、洒羊血、吃掉羔羊，这些环节都至关重要。 But it’s really important to slaughter the lamb, to sprinkle the blood, and to eat the lamb.
吃羔羊并不是因为大家都爱吃羊肉，而是祭献的高潮，也就是共融之时刻。 The eating of the lamb is not because lamb is everybody's favorite dish; it’s the climax of the sacrifice, which is the communion.
因此，这并没有得选；如果当时有人决定「我们不 吃羔羊」，那他们的长子就会在第二天一早丧命。 So it really wasn’t an option; if you took a vote and you said, Well, we’re not going to eat the lamb, your firstborn would be dead by morning.
因此，你必须吃下那只羔羊，而这正是逾越节的高潮。 So you had to eat the lamb, and that’s the climax of the Passover.
我想这也正是教父们所看见的一个对应：如果耶稣是神的羔羊，那么仅 仅在世上最后一次庆祝，还不足以完成；也不只是简单地受死就行。 I think that also really has an application that the Fathers saw—that if Jesus is the Lamb of God, it’s not enough just to celebrate it one last time; it’s not enough just to kind of die.
事实上，祂必须在圣餐中预备好一切，让我们能够同领这祭献的羔羊。 There really is a sense in which he has to make provisions in the Eucharist so that we can commune upon the sacrificial lamb.
我认为这正是《出埃及记》第十二章帮我们了解的要点。 I think that’s what Exodus 12 really helps us with.
至于 Seder 餐本身，它在第一世纪和二十一世纪的庆祝 方式，正如我提到的，有一个“四段式结构”，也就是四杯酒。 The Seder meal itself, the way it was celebrated in the first century and the 21st century, you know, as I mentioned, has a fourfold structure, with four cups.
第一杯称为「Kaddush」，在希伯来语里意为「 祝圣」，因为它主要是为整个筵席、整个节庆做祝福。 The first cup is called the Kaddush, which is the Hebrew word for consecration because it’s basically a blessing for the whole meal, the festival.
接着大家会一起吃一些苦菜，提醒自己在为奴之地的苦涩，随后几乎 立刻又进入第二阶段，也就是所谓的「Haggadah 之杯」。 You share some bitter herbs to remind yourselves about the bitterness of slavery, and then you move to the second stage almost immediately, the Haggadah cup.
它的基础是「Haggadah」，也就是对《出埃及记 》第十二章逾越节故事的复述，通常以问答的形式进行。 This is based upon the Haggadah, which is the recitation of the Passover narrative in Exodus 12, typically in interrogative form.
因此，由家中最年轻的人提出问题，年长者回答。在耶稣那边，可能是 那位主所爱的门徒倚靠在祂的胸前，然后耶稣回答最年轻门徒的问题。 So the youngest member asks the questions that the oldest member answers, and it might have been the beloved disciple reclining on Jesus' breast, and then Jesus responding to his youngest disciples' questions.
当人们分饮完「Haggadah 之杯」后，就 进入正餐——这时会端上羔羊，并再配一些苦菜。 When the Haggadah cup is shared, you then move into the main course, and that’s where the lamb is served, along with some more bitter herbs.
然后出现第三杯，也就是「Barakah 之杯」——香颂（或祝 福）阶段的逾越节之杯，因为「Barakah」意为「祝福」。 This is where the third cup comes in, the Barakah cup—the Barakah stage of the Passover because that’s the word for blessing.
这是「祝福之杯」。 It’s the cup of blessing.
因此，保罗谈到「我们所祝福的杯，岂不是同领 基督的血吗？」时，所指的正是这杯祝福之杯。 So when Paul speaks of the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion in the blood of Christ?
他所说的是圣餐，但那是从犹太背景的基督徒角度出发，因为若不是在他毕 生作为犹太人、每年经历逾越节的前提下，他也不会知道要这样称呼它。 He’s talking about the Eucharist, but he’s talking as a Jewish Christian because he wouldn’t know to call it that unless he had experienced a Passover every year throughout his entire life as a Jew.
所以很明显，在《路加福音》第22章中，第三杯就 是耶稣所祝圣的「圣餐之杯」，也就是祝福之杯。 And so clearly in Luke 22, the third cup is the cup that he consecrates as the Eucharistic cup of blessing.
路加也提到了之前所使用的一只杯。 Luke also refers to a previous cup.
因此，你知道在那个楼房里，他们确实喝了多杯酒，而且还有「哈利勒诗篇」的吟唱。 So, you know that there are multiple cups that are being shared in the Upper Room, and then you also have the Hallel sung.
第四杯称为「Hallel 之杯」，因为那包含了宏大的颂歌，即诗篇114到 118篇，并在喝下、共领第四杯时到达整个逾越礼仪的高潮，而那却被跳过了。 The fourth cup is called the Hallel cup because the great praise, which is Psalms 114 through 118, climaxed with the consumption, the shared communion of the fourth cup, and that’s what’s skipped.
那么，我们怎么从最初的逾越节发展到后来的 Seder 式呢？ Now, how did we go from Passover to Seder?
换句话说，至少在犹太人的历史中，我们是从何 时开始看到使用这些「四杯」的庆祝方式的？ I mean, at least in the history of the Jewish people, where did we see the celebration of these cups begin?
基本上，这条「新河流」至少由两条支流汇成。 Well, there are at least two tributaries that make for this new river.
正如我先前所提到的，在埃及时，那是家庭式礼仪；利未人甚至还没成为正式的祭司群体。 As I said, in Egypt, it was a domestic liturgy; the Levites hadn't even become clergy yet.
等你进入应许之地时，就会形成两个阶段。 So when you're now in the Promised Land, there are two stages.
一方面，这时成了由祭司们在圣殿举行的利未人礼仪。 On the one hand, it is now a Levitical ritual celebrated in the Temple by the priests.
它不再是由家中的父亲与长子来完成的家庭式礼仪。 It's no longer a domestic liturgy celebrated by the fathers and the firstborn sons.
不过，第二条支流是：尽管你不再像利未人或亚伦那样在祭 坛前献羔羊，你仍然要以家庭为单位参与某些部分的礼仪。 Yet, the second tributary is the fact that you still do something as a family, even if it's not going to the altar like a Levite, like Aaron the High Priest, and sacrifice from the lamb.
逾越节的 Seder 与逾越节祭献是分不开的， 并没有哪本规则手册能将这些事解释得清清楚楚。 The Passover Seder is inseparable from the Passover sacrifice, and there’s no rulebook that exactly explains these things.
不过，你也知道 Seder 本身也是我们所理解的新约逾越节——也就是我 们称作圣餐的基督徒逾越节——的一条支流，而这一点主要体现在那几杯酒上。 But you know that the Seder is also a tributary to what we would see as the Passover of the New Covenant, the Christian Passover we call the Eucharist, because of the cups.
我认为这之所以变得重要，是因为当圣殿被毁后，祭献已无法继续进 行，Seder 便更多地成了一场聚餐，和献祭的概念部分脱节。 I think the situation became significant because when the Temple was destroyed and there was no longer the possibility of sacrifices, then actually the Seder became much more a meal and was somewhat divorced from the idea of sacrifice.
从某种意义上说，公教会的看法是，如果最后的晚餐多少可视 为弥撒的原型，那么那第四杯就是和祭献相连接的关键所在。 In a certain sense, the Catholic position is going to be that if the Last Supper is somehow the sort of prototype of the Mass, the fourth cup makes the connection with the sacrifice.
因此，我们理解弥撒既是祭献又是筵席；而在新教传统中，若更注重筵席部分，这 也许多少与犹太传统的衔接已然断开，或被削弱了。还是说，我这么说过于牵强？ We understand, therefore, the Mass to be both sacrifice and meal, whereas maybe from the Protestant tradition, if there’s more of a focus on the meal, it’s somehow because the Jewish connection had lost itself, and that is somehow filtered in, or was that pushing things too far?
不会，我觉得这是个好问题；确实也不容易回答。 No, I mean it’s a good question; it’s not an easy one.
我会说，你问题的第一部分，不仅触及公元70年后出现的离散犹太教，也如你提 到的，随着公元前587年耶路撒冷圣殿被毁，就已经出现离散的犹太教形态了。 I would say the first part of your question points to not only the Diaspora Judaism which comes after 70 AD, but as you mentioned, with the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple back in 587, you have now Diaspora Judaism.
因为他们没有了圣殿、祭坛和大祭司来宰杀逾越节羔羊。 You don't have a temple with an altar and a high priest offering Passover lambs.
不过，这并不代表逾越节就彻底成了一顿简单的饭食而已。 That doesn’t necessarily mean, though, that it is reduced to nothing more than a meal.
例如，在埃及的埃勒芬提尼定居点，我们也知道在 迦密山，以利亚也没有依赖耶路撒冷圣殿而献祭。 At Elephantine, the colony in Egypt, we also know that at Mount Carmel, Elijah sacrifices apart from the Jerusalem Temple.
可见，在犹太教里确实存在一些做法，即便没有圣殿、祭 坛与利未人大祭司，也能以某种半献祭的形式宰杀羔羊。 So we find out that there are strands within Judaism that allow for a lamb to be slaughtered in a semi-sacrificial way, even if you didn’t have a temple with an altar and a Levitical high priest standing there.
因此，这类调整往往没有被精确地记载，但你会感觉到，那些逾越节的前夕…… And so these adaptations are not always chronicled with precision, but you get a sense that the Passover eve...
从未只是单纯的筵席，它一并是祭献，因为牵涉到羔羊。 Never becomes exclusively a meal; it’s always a sacrifice too because there’s a lamb.
在如此学术性的探讨背后，我觉得可能还有一个隐藏的问题：公教徒可不可以去实践 Seder 这样的传统，好像显示大公合一的精神，并提醒犹太人我们同是闪族呢？ It seems to me that the question that’s probably lurking in this otherwise very learned discussion is: is it okay for Catholics to observe this custom, to do the Seder meal so that they can strut their ecumenical sinews and remind the Jews that we’re all Semites?
这样做合适吗？ Is that plausible?
这就有点像要在「一方面……另一方面……」之间权衡。 It’s sort of like, on the one hand—and on the other.
一方面，我这些年来也曾参加过类似的活动，并且从中获益良多。 On the one hand, I’ve done this over the years, and I’ve learned from it.
然而另一方面，不仅在教父文献中有一些强烈的警示，而且从 大公合一的敏锐度来看，这也关系到教会如何与他人相处。 On the other hand, not only from patristic sources do you have strong warnings against that, but also with rather ecumenical sensitivities.
毕竟，你也不会希望某些离开公教会的团体，自行 举办他们所谓的圣餐，却缺少祝圣中的要素等等。 You wouldn’t want some post-Catholic group to kind of celebrate their version of the Eucharist without the words of consecration or what have you.
因此，为了尊重正统犹太人的感受，也为了忠于早期教父的见证，屈梭多模曾写过一篇 反对犹太化基督徒的论述，因为 Seder 经常会模糊弥撒与犹太礼仪的界限，让 人倾向犹太化，而早期教父们当时就很清楚地否定这种做法：他们说，那些该是弥撒。 And so, out of sensitivity to Orthodox Jews, as well as out of kind of faithfulness to the testimony of the early Church Fathers, Chrysostom has a discourse against the Judaizing Christians because a Seder can often sort of blur the lines and attract people to Judaize in ways that the early Church Fathers had a clear sense that no, these things are the Mass.
这就属于我们所说的混合主义的一种形式，我们希望能避免并加以抵制。 It’s a species of what we call syncretism, which we want to avoid and deplore.
当今我们会用「文化挪用」这样的说法来形容这种情况 ，譬如想起沃伦参议员宣称自己是切罗基人那件事。 Nowadays, we have that phrase cultural misappropriation, and one thinks of, for example, Senator Warren telling us that she’s really a Cherokee.
我指的是「宝嘉康蒂斯」那一番争论，其实就十分荒诞。 I mean, Pocahontas, that whole business is really phony.
犹太教——从基督信仰的角度看，它只是更美好事物的预表，因此我们不该回到 从前，因为犹太教整体的走向就是等待那位已在耶稣基督身上完全应验的救恩。 The Jews—well, Christianity views Judaism as a foreshadowing of something far better, and so we ought not to return to that because the whole orientation of Judaism is in the direction of a fulfillment which is precisely enfleshed in Jesus the Christ.
是的，没错！ That’s right!
我的意思是，如果基督就是羔羊，那么逾越节的羔羊 并不比耶稣更「羔羊本质」；它仅仅是一个预表。 I mean, if Christ is the Lamb, then the Passover lamb isn’t more lamb-like than Jesus; it’s a foreshadowing.
一旦我们在基督里看见了真相，我们就明白它是如何在旧约中投射出影 像，以及为什么那只羔羊——它是非理性的动物——不过是一个预表。 Once we see the reality in Christ, we understand how it casts the shadows back into the Old Testament and why the lambs, which are irrational animals, merely foreshadow.
因此，如果在真相已显明之后再回到原本的预表，就好比回 到柏拉图的山洞里，只盯着那些影子，而不是面对真实。 So to return to that after the reality is kind of like going back into the cave of Plato and looking at the shadows instead of the reality.
你在书里提到了一些预表的内容，的确令人惊叹。 You mentioned some of the typology in the book, which is quite astounding.
我以前不知道：你说在宰杀羔羊时，常常会用木桩将它固定成类似十字架的形状。 I didn’t know this point: you say that when the lamb was sacrificed, often it was actually using stakes that were put into a cruciform sort of structure.
是的，没错！ That’s right, yeah!
而且，我的意思是，那些做法并不是耶稣想说「噢， 我知道他们就是这样做的，那我就来配合一下」。 And I mean, those kinds of things—it's not that Jesus is sort of thinking, Well, I know that’s what they do, so I’m going to sort of play the part.
而是在神的护理之中，圣灵带领他们如此行，好让 耶稣成为犹太人信服的理由，你也可以这么说。 Those things, in divine providence, the Spirit’s been leading those people to do those precisely to make Jesus, you might say, their motives of credibility for the Jews.
就像：「瞧，这一位才是真正完全应验了那一切的人。」 Hey, look, this one is completely fulfilling it exactly right.
这正是梵蒂冈第一届大公会议所说的「信服理由」所要表达的意义。 The motives of credibility from Vatican I are exactly what these provide.
在十九世纪的时候，除梵蒂冈第一届大公会议之外，我们还有一位著名的犹太裔皈 依者阿尔弗雷德·爱德夏姆，他写过一本关于圣殿的书，还写过其他一些著作。 Back in the 19th century, besides Vatican I, we have this famous Jewish convert, Alfred Edersheim, who writes a book on the Temple and some other books as well.
他是一位新教徒，不过公教徒也从他的著作中获益 良多，尤其是我那位好朋友布兰特·皮特里博士。 He’s a Protestant, but Catholics have found him very useful, especially my good friend Dr. Brant Pitre.
正是他从《米书拿》和《塔木德》以及其他资料里提出证据 ，说明羔羊确实是被撑成一种十字形状之后再宰杀的过程。 He’s the one who draws from the Mishnah and the Talmud and these other sources that show us the process—that, in effect, the lamb was really stretched to cruciform in order to be slaughtered.
当你从犹太文献中看爱德夏姆对所流出的血与水的描述，就会发 现耶稣肋旁被刺后流出的血与水，与圣殿祭仪的氛围极其相似， 犹太的背景与这些相合而形成了一个非常令人惊奇的对应。 When you look at what Edersheim described from the Jewish sources in terms of the blood and the water that flowed out, you realize that the blood and the water that flows from the piercing side of Jesus is so Temple-like that again, Jews and convergences and parallels provide a pretty astonishing example.
那些刚被宰杀的羔羊，肠肚似乎被包成一种头盔状，放在整体祭礼的顶端 ——这一画面和象征，令人很自然地联想到荆棘冠冕缠绕在耶稣的头上。 The image, the symbolism of the entrails of the freshly slain sheep wrapped in a kind of helmet and placed at the top of this whole affair reminds us exactly of the crown of thorns wrapping themselves about the head of Jesus.
我的意思是，这种对应几乎显而易见，也令人感到惊异。 I mean, the parallel is unmistakable; it’s uncanny.
是的，我认为我们需要谨慎对待撒母耳·桑德玛所说的「平行狂热」。 Yeah, I think we’ve got to be careful of what Samuel Sandma once called parallel mania.
我相信教父们更为重视的经文本身的平行对应才是更重要的。 I think the canonical parallels that the Fathers privileged are more significant.
换言之，当你像我一样做历史研究，看到爱德夏姆以及《米书拿 》、《塔木德》等非正典文献对犹太习俗的描述时，我觉得那些 可用来当背景，但我们要突出展示的还是圣经本身的内容。 In other words, when you do this historical work as I have done and you find from Edersheim and from the Mishnah and the Talmud non-canonical descriptions of Jewish customs, I think these have got to be backgrounded, and the biblical material is what I try to foreground.
因此，我们优先关注正典中蒙默示的细节，同时也可以参考背景材料。 So there’s a privileging of the canonical, inspired details, and at the same time, there’s recourse to the background.
不过，我认为也存在一种过度沉迷的风险，好像有人沉醉于 这些看似很有趣的历史信息，但其实也有不少待商榷之处。 But I think there’s a danger of a kind of titillation or a fascination, like I’m fixating on all these historical things that are really nice, you know, but they’re questionable.
我觉得它们很可能是真实的，但当你看到这些平行时，它们所提供的更 多还是「信服理由」；相较之下，当你看到旧约逾越节那段蒙默示的叙 事，以及基督设立的蒙默示记载时，你才能获得真正的信心的确据。 I think that they’re very probable, but I don’t think that you’re ever going to add up to more than motives of credibility when you see these parallels, whereas I think you have the certitude of faith when you see the inspired narrative of the Old Covenant Passover and then you see the inspired narrative of the institution.
是的。 Right.
没错，对象征意义的过度挖掘有时会近乎疯狂，对吗？ Yeah, that is—the search for symbols can be almost demented, right?
我想起弗兰纳里·欧康纳曾有一句妙语，说有些批评者就像煮得 太淡的汤，到处在找些所谓的寓意，其实那样做没什么前景。 I mean, Flannery O’Connor has a great line about the critic’s soup too thin, looking for this or that allegory, and there’s not a whole lot of future in that.
不过，我认为殉道者游斯丁确实引用了那些内脏的 比喻，而那也无可置疑地让我们联想到荆棘冠冕。 But Justin Martyr, I think, does seize upon that example of the entrails, and it does unmistakably remind us of a crown of thorns.
在《启示录》中，正如你指出的，有28处单独提到基督是羔羊。 In the Book of Revelation, as you yourself point out, there are 28 discrete references to Christ as the Lamb.
如果犹太人宰杀羔羊时是这样做的，那自然就使 我们想到当耶稣被杀时，可以做这样的对应。 If this is what happens to the lamb when it’s been slaughtered by the Jews, then it invites that application to Jesus when he’s being slaughtered.
我们提到，这场血腥的罗马行刑——从犹太人的角度看，首先会注意到的 就是「第四杯」的缺失，而另一个重要点是最后的晚餐中没有出现羔羊。 This bloody Roman execution—we pointed out previously that the sort of great admission that somebody would note if they’re a Jew is that the fourth cup, but the other great admission is that there wasn’t a lamb at the Last Supper.
正是因为……其实已经有那「羔羊」了！ Precisely because… well, there was the Lamb!
所以，我是说，这就是两大要点——就犹太人的思维而言，如果你从犹太思想来 阅读这个故事，就会发现缺了两样关键：最后一杯在哪里，以及羔羊在哪里？ So, I mean, they are the two great— I assume from the Jewish point of view, if you’re looking at the story from Jewish ideology, there are two things that really are missing here: the last cup and where’s the lamb?
嗯，学界对于到底有没有羔羊存有争论。我的倾向是「没有 」，因为其中没有提到苦菜，也缺少许多旁枝末节的细节。 Well, you know, there is a scholarly debate as to whether there was or wasn’t. I kind of lean towards there wasn’t because there are no bitter herbs that are mentioned, and there are a lot of other little details that are sort of omitted.
我会觉得犹大在场就算是一味苦菜吧，耶稣还得想办法把它「消化」掉。 I would think the presence of Judas would be the bitter herb that Jesus had to somehow assimilate.
嗯，你的比喻是有点牵强，但我想它的确引我们去思考最后的晚 餐里到底有什么祭献——我们会看到它在十字架上得以应验。 Well, you’re straining the soup in your alligator, but it does lead us, I think, to the idea of what was the sacrifice that was done at that Last Supper, which we’re going to see fulfilled on the Cross.
那就是关键！ That’s the key!
就是这个关键！ That’s the key!
我们待会回来就要讨论这一点。 And that’s what we’re going to talk about when we get back.
请继续收看「Franciscan University Presents」。 Please stay with us at Franciscan University Presents.
神之所以吩咐人要献祭牲，其中一个原因是要让我 们一同吃祭肉，从而彰显我们与祂一家的共融。 The reason why God orders animal sacrifice is to bring about a communion meal to signify our family unity with Him.
因此，当逾越节羔羊被宰杀，血被洒上后，还有个至关重要的步骤——那就是吃羔羊。 So when the Passover lamb is slaughtered and his blood is sprinkled, something ultimate still remains, and that is eating the lamb.
你必须吃那羔羊；若不吃，就算不得数。 You had to eat the lamb; if you didn’t, it wouldn’t take.
所以耶稣基督就是神的羔羊；祂被杀，流了血，但还有一件事等着我们去完成。 So Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God; He is slain, His blood is shed, but something remains for us to do.
我们的羔羊被宰杀，祂的血被洒出，但我们还要吃这羔羊。 Our Lamb is slaughtered, His blood is sprinkled, but we have to eat the lamb.
欢迎回到节目，谢谢各位继续收看。 Welcome back, and thank you for joining us.
您正在观看「Franciscan University Pres ents」，我们在斯托本维尔方济各大学传播艺术工作室为您播出。 You’re watching Franciscan University Presents, and we’re coming to you from the Communication Arts Studio here on the campus of Franciscan University of Steubenville.
我们的学生担任摄像和设备操作，而我在神学系的同事——瑞吉斯· 马丁博士、威廉·牛顿博士，以及史考特·韩博士——我们一起在讨 论史考特的新书《第四杯：揭开最后的晚餐与十字架的奥秘》。 Our students are operating the cameras and equipment, and my colleagues in the theology department—Dr. Regis Martin, Dr. William Newton, and Dr. Scott Hahn—we're all talking about Scott's book, The Fourth Cup: Unveiling the Mystery of the Last Supper and the Cross.
让我们来谈谈核心问题：那只羔羊到底在哪里？ Let’s get into the heart of it: where was the lamb?
那次祭献又是在哪里完成的？ Where was the sacrifice?
我们在最后的晚餐里并没有看见那种像 Seder 餐时进行的献羔羊仪式。 We didn't see it happening at the Last Supper as you normally would at a Seder meal.
实际上，你在书中所谈的核心就是要理解基督本身即是祭献。 Really, the heart of what you’re talking about in the book is understanding Christ as a sacrifice.
是的，没错。 That’s right.
就请你再多说说这点吧，因为我认为这非常关键——这是我在阅读时感到最震撼的一处。 Just talk more about that because I think that is really the key—the mind-blowing moment when I was reading this.
究竟是哪一点？ Of just what?
没错！ Right!
我的意思是，对我而言，也相信对我们所有人而言，关键就 在于，逾越节为背景这一点揭示了耶稣被钉十字架的真义。 I mean, the takeaway for me, and I think for all of us, is the fact that, you know, the Passover as the background is the key that illuminates the crucifixion.
我们往往把耶稣在受难日于加尔瓦略山上受死，看作一项祭献。 We’re so accustomed to seeing Jesus dying at Calvary on Good Friday as a sacrifice.
但有一点很重要：设若我们身在当时受难日、站在加尔瓦略山下，身为虔诚的犹太人 ，或跟随主两三年的门徒，就没有任何人会把自己所见、所感受的称为「祭献」。 It’s important to kind of recognize that if we’d been there on Good Friday, standing at Calvary as devout Jews, as developed disciples who had followed our Lord for the last two or three years, not one of us could have been able to express our experience in terms of a sacrifice.
因为在犹太人看来，一个祭献必须在耶路撒冷的圣殿里、 在祭坛上，由大祭司和利未祭司们主持才可称为祭献。 Because for Jews, a sacrifice had to take place in the Jerusalem temple on top of an altar, with the high priest and the Levitical clergy there to preside.
然而耶稣却是在城墙外、离圣殿甚远的地方被钉 ，没有祭坛，也没有利未祭司在那里主持礼仪。 And He’s crucified outside the walls, far from the temple, where there were no altars and no Levitical clergy standing by to preside at the liturgy.
所以我们当天所目睹的、后来向亲友讲述的，不会是「祭献」，而 只是一场罗马式处决，而且还是极为残酷、血淋淋的死刑执行。 So what we would have witnessed and what we would have recounted later that day to our friends and family members would not have been a sacrifice; it would have been a Roman execution—and a really brutal, bloody execution at that.
于是我就产生了这个问题：这一场罗马式行刑，怎么会不仅成为一 项祭献，而且圣到足以取代耶路撒冷圣殿里所献的一切祭牲呢？ And so the question became for me: how did a Roman execution get turned into not only a sacrifice, but one so holy that it retires all of the animals that are offered in the Jerusalem temple?
答案只能在逾越节里找到。 The only way you can find an answer to that question is the Passover.
这正是保罗在《哥林多前书》5章7节告诉我，也告诉早期教父们的信息 ：「我们逾越节的羔羊基督已经被杀献祭了；所以我们守这节……」。 And that’s exactly what Paul provided me and the early Fathers in 1 Corinthians 5, verse 7, when he says, Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed; therefore let us keep the feast.
保罗随后在后面的章节里对此作了进一步阐释，他所说的守节，就是我们所称的圣餐。 The feast that he goes on to explain in the subsequent chapters is what we call the Eucharist.
因此，他把周四和周五，也就是楼房的晚餐与加尔瓦略 山连接起来，因为少了其一，你就无法真正明白其二。 And so he’s connecting Thursday and Friday, the Upper Room and Calvary, because you can’t understand either one without the other.
如果你只看见楼房的一幕，你只会以为自己见到了一个犹太人的逾越节庆祝。 If all you had was the Upper Room, all you’d think you were witnessing was a Jewish Passover.
当然，期间也有一些非常规之举。 You know, there were some aberrations.
比如耶稣在无酵饼上所做的，是门徒们前所未见、前所未 闻的：「你们拿着吃，这是我的身体，为你们舍的。」 You know Jesus is doing something with the unleavened bread that the disciples had never seen or heard before: Take this and eat of it; this is my body, which will be given up for you.
他们当时一定很想打断耶稣，问：「你这是在说什么？」 I mean, they must have wanted to interrupt him and ask, What was that?
可是耶稣很快又继续往下，所以门徒就没打断。 You know, but he’s back on track, so we’ll let him go.
可在最后，当耶稣拿起祝福之杯——也就是第三杯，并用那些我们从小到 大都耳熟能详的话语祝圣时，现场没有一个犹太人曾经听过那样的表达。 But then at the end, when he’s taking the cup of blessing, the third cup, and he’s consecrating with words that we’ve grown up with all of our lives, none of the Jews there would have ever heard before.
这些举动肯定让他们倍感困惑。 They must have been baffled.
因为在这样神圣的礼仪里可不容即兴发挥，但耶稣却在这样说、 这样做，让他们感到或许只是说说场面话或是另一种仪式罢了。 You know, you don’t just improvise in the middle of this sacred liturgy, and yet here he is saying things and doing things that might have struck them as rhetoric or ritual.
然而到第二天，也就是受难日，在加尔瓦略山，他们 恍然明白：那真的是祂的身体，而且已经被交付了。 But then suddenly, the reality is what’s dawning on them the next day at Good Friday at Calvary: you’re like, that is his body and it is given up.
祂言出即意，意表其言。 He said what he meant; he meant what he said.
那正是祂所流出的血。 And that’s the blood that’s being poured out.
因此，那一次逾越节并不只是再庆祝一次，而是由真正的羔羊来成全。 So the Passover wasn’t just celebrated one last time; it was fulfilled by the true Lamb.
祂将旧的逾越节转变为新的方式，从而真正完成了逾越节。而在 旧约里，逾越节从来不仅是简单的一顿饭；它始终是一项祭献。 He fulfilled the Passover by transforming the old into the new, and the Passover in the old was never just a meal; it was always a sacrifice.
那顿筵席其实正象征了「祭献的共融」。 The meal was simply a sacrificial communion.
如果那在旧约中是如此，那么在新约中就不仅相同，而且更 为显明；因为神的羔羊因爱为我们舍下了祂的身体和生命。 And if that’s true in the old, it’s not less but more true in the new, where the Lamb of God has laid down his body and life for us out of love.
祂为我们预备了一顿宴席，但那是一种祭献的共融。 He’s made provisions for a meal, but that’s a sacrificial communion.
再一次，你会发现这一切都循着祂的方向延伸，如同多米诺骨牌般地展开。 And once again, all of these, you know, all of the dominoes sort of fall from him.
就好比我们这些原本是新教徒的人，曾经认为把弥撒视作祭献，简直是骇人听闻的亵渎。 It’s like, you know, for us as Protestants, the idea that the Mass is a sacrifice is the most horrendous blasphemy.
的确，那是一顿筵席；对公教徒而言，它就是那最后的晚餐，也就是主的圣餐。 It is a meal, and for Catholics, it is a meal; it’s the Last Supper; it’s the Lord’s Supper.
但它不只是筵席，也不以筵席为首要。 But it’s not just a meal or primarily a meal.
它首要是祭献，宴席只是次要的、与祭献相契合的共融。 It’s primarily a sacrifice; the meal is secondarily a sacrificial communion.
突然之间，我发现公教会的教导不只是合情合理，而且是唯一能自洽说明这些细节的诠释。 And all of a sudden, the Catholic Church’s teachings not only struck me as plausible, but it’s the only coherent account of the details.
因此，如果这只是一顿普通的宴席，那么那接下来的就只是一场处决而已。 So, you know, if this is just a meal, then that’s just an execution.
可若这是新约的逾越节，就不可能只是用餐；它必定是一场祭献。 But if this is the Passover of the New Covenant, it can’t be just a meal; it had to be a sacrifice.
这正是揭示加尔瓦略之奥秘的关键。 And that’s what illuminates the mystery of Calvary.
祂并非被罗马暴力所夺去性命，而是因神的爱甘愿献上自己的生命。 He’s not losing his life as a victim of Roman violence; he’s giving his life as a victim of divine love.
因此，圣餐把这场处决转化为祭献，正如复活主日又 将这祭献转化为圣事，使我们在纪念祂时得以同领。 And so, the Eucharist transforms an execution into a sacrifice, just as Easter Sunday transforms the sacrifice into the sacrament, which we do in remembrance of him.
因为祂的身体已不在那楼房里，也不再悬在十字架上流血，也不再埋于坟墓中。 Because his body isn’t in the Upper Room anymore; it’s not hanging and bleeding on the Cross; it’s not buried in the tomb.
祂已从死里复活，升至高天，成为在天上的大祭 司，又在弥撒的祭献中，藉着圣灵的能力临现。 He’s raised from the dead; he’s ascended on high; he’s the High Priest in heaven who comes in the power of the Spirit in the sacrifice of the Mass.
无论我是否明白、是否接受或批判，这就像一份圣恩一般。 Whether I knew it or not, whether I accepted it or condemned it, it’s just like holy grace.
关于圣殿的概念也非常耐人寻味。 This idea of the Temple is an intriguing one.
在犹太人的传统里，凡要献祭，通常得在圣殿之内进行。 It strikes me that in Jewish usage, if you’re going to have a sacrifice, it’s got to take place inside the Temple.
然而耶稣就是新的圣殿；祂打破了原有的框架，完全推翻了旧规。 But Jesus is the new Temple; he breaks that precedent, he blows it wide open, pulverizes that.
同样，在十字架脚下见证这一切的又是谁呢？ And likewise, who’s there to witness this at the foot of the Cross?
是祂的母亲马利亚。她不仅出现在终点，也在起初——当天使在拿撒 勒她的家中向她宣告时就在场，而那儿 ebenso 不是圣殿。 Mary, his mother, who was there at the end and was there at the beginning when the announcement was made to her in her home in Nazareth—that wasn’t a temple either.
与耶稣的表亲施洗约翰不同，他的诞生是在圣殿里向正在服事的祭司撒迦利亚 宣告的；但马利亚只是一位无足轻重的妇人，住在那个偏僻的小镇拿撒勒。 Unlike Jesus’ cousin, John the Baptist, whose birth is announced in a temple to a functioning official of the temple, Zechariah, Mary is this no-account woman, a woman of all things in this jerkwater town, Nazareth.
而一切正是从那里开始。 And it all begins right there.
那里就是阿尔法点，然后一直走到欧米伽之处，圣殿再度更新 ，在耶稣身上完成祭献；祂的身体被擘开，成为世人的食粮。 There’s the alpha point, and it leads to the omega, where the Temple is once again renewed, sacrificed in the person of Jesus, whose body is broken to become food for the world.
祂正能成就此事。 He can do this.
你对最后的晚餐发生的时间点有一番有趣的探讨，并且倾向认为是在更早一些的星期二。 You make an interesting exploration of the timing of the Last Supper, and you’re in favor of a slightly earlier Tuesday.
我部分是想知道，这对我们有没有帮助呢？ In part, I was wondering, does that help us?
因为如果情况确实如此，那么在时间上，我们就能把基督的 祭献与圣殿体制下在圣殿里宰杀逾越羔羊的行为对上号。 Because if that is the case, then actually we can chronologically coincide Christ’s sacrifice with the sacrifice of the lamb in the Temple under the Temple regime.
这是否是让你倾向于将时间往前提一点的原因之一呢？ Is that an element that sort of sways you in favor of a slightly earlier timing?
简单回答就是，你提到的事实是，对观福音的记述与若望福音的记述似乎出现了分歧。 To answer briefly, you're pointing to the fact that the Synoptic accounts and the Johannine accounts seem to diverge.
它们并不互相矛盾，但对观记述明确指出那楼房里的晚餐就是逾越节筵席。 They’re not a contradiction, but the Synoptic accounts explicitly state that the Upper Room is a Passover meal.
约翰曾如此描述，却从未明确称它是逾越节筵席。 John describes it as such, but never calls it that.
在若望福音第18章和19章的记载里，逾越节的一些活动 似乎确实是在那最后晚餐之后才发生的，我认为这是事实。 In John's account, there in John 18 and 19, it seems as though the Passover events are actually subsequent to the Last Supper, which I think is true.
因此，我参考了本笃十六世教宗的看法——他在2006年的圣周四讲道中提到 吉尔伯特教授等人的研究，根据死海古卷可知，在第一世纪时，虔诚的犹太人（ 也就是爱色尼派）遵从摩西律法中的太阳历；而那些堕落的撒都该人与法利赛人 所采用的是从被掳归来后，引进的巴比伦阴历。当时两派之间有激烈的争论。 So I kind of riff from Pope Benedict, who on Holy Thursday back in 2006 pointed to the scholarship of Professor Gilbert and others who, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized that in the first century, there was a raging debate between the devout Jews known as Essenes, who followed the solar calendar of the Mosaic Torah, and the lunar calendar of the corrupt Sadducees and the Pharisees, who had adapted that from the Babylonians when they had come back from captivity.
我认为神自有祂的引导，虽然环境复杂，但从初期教会的斯基托波利的戴维 到帕塔尔的维克多里努斯，都给出了一个我觉得相当准确的对观福音年表。 Well, I think God writes straight with crooked lines because what you have in the early Church, from David of Scythopolis to Victorinus of Patal, is a Synoptic chronology that I think is quite accurate.
我仍然支持我们现行的圣周四，但我确实认为我们通常说是在周四发生的那些情节， 可能实际是在周二夜里发生，而按照严格的摩西太阳历推算，那才是逾越节的日子。 I’m all in favor of keeping Holy Thursday, but I do think that the events we associate with Thursday probably happened on Tuesday night, which looks to have been the Passover according to the strict Torah solar calendar.
马太、马可和路加都说马利亚在逾越节前两天在伯大 尼给耶稣抹香膏；而约翰则说是在逾越节前六天。 Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that Mary anointed Jesus at Bethany two days before the Passover; John says six days before the Passover.
到底是哪一天呢？ Which is it?
其实都对。 It’s both.
因为约翰所描述的，是祭司们采用的那个、更改之后的阴历逾越节。 Because what John is describing is the lunar Passover that was sort of adapted corruptly by the priests.
于是，我们就发现可以为那五六场审判留出足够的时间，比如先到亚那， 再到该亚法，随后又回亚那，然后从彼拉多转到希律，又回到彼拉多。 And so, you know, suddenly we now have enough time for five or six trials because we have Annas, Caiaphas, back to Annas, then Pilate to Herod and back to Pilate.
要不然，你怎么可能在一夜之间塞进六场审讯呢？ And you know, how do you squeeze six trials into one night?
尤其是这些审讯还要从凌晨两点就开始。固然，所有人可以连续熬夜，包括 暴民和公会，但教父文献记载里却把犹太人的审判说成是发生在星期三。 Especially when the trials have to begin around 2 AM. Now, everybody could have pulled an all-nighter, including the mobs and the Sanhedrin, but these patristic accounts describe the Jewish trials as occurring on Wednesday.
随后，当他们意识到无法以亵渎罪钉死耶稣，就把他交给彼拉多，说他自称为王。 And then, once they realize they can’t crucify him for blasphemy, they hand him over to Pilate and say he’s trying to be a king.
「你若是该撒的朋友，就不能任由这事发生。」 “If you’re a friend of Caesar, you can’t let that happen.”
于是一来一回，彼拉多送他去见希律，希律再把他送还彼拉多。 So Pilate hands him to Herod, who hands him back to Pilate.
罗马方面的审判是在星期四进行，然后到了受难 日，也就是星期五，才正式宣判和执行死刑。 The Roman trials occur on Thursday, and the verdict and sentence of death is pronounced on Good Friday.
比起把所有审判都挤在凌晨两点到清晨八点之间，这方案听起来 要合理得多。我在那一章提到，神在祂的怜悯护理中，藉着死海 古卷向我们启示了一些拉比们在接下去九百年里都知道的事。 This just seems so much more plausible than trying to do all of the trials from 2 AM until roughly 8 AM. In that chapter, I show how, in God’s merciful providence, the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal something that the rabbis were well aware of for the next 900 years.
也就是说，使用的是阴历还是太阳历？ That is, is it a lunar or is it a solar?
在神的安排之下，其实两种都用了！ Well, in God’s providence, it was both!
而且就是以这种方式实现了救恩。 And it’s fulfilled that way.
这样一来，就有了可能：最后的晚餐确实是逾越节，而耶 稣作为新的羔羊，也确实在宰杀逾越羔羊的时刻被杀献。 That opens up the possibility that the Last Supper really is the Passover, and yet Jesus, as the new Lamb, really is slaughtered at the moment when the lamb is slaughtered.
否则的话，你根本做不到这一点。 Otherwise, you can’t do that.
这真是一种出于神的安排。 That’s a kind of divine configuration.
是的，我是说，这有点像《约翰福音》第十一章提 到，当年的大祭司该亚法不经意间就说出了预言。 Yeah, I mean, it’s sort of like in John 11 when Caiaphas, being a high priest that year, prophesied inadvertently.
那么，他怎么会这样？ Well, how?
他这是以合谋者的口吻冷嘲地说：「让一人死为整个民族换来生存，不是更好吗？」 It’s a cynical quip from a co-conspirator: “It’s better for one man to die to spare the nation.”
于是，一个本身极为腐败的大祭司，却讽刺地、也在神的安排下，说出了一个预言。 So here is the quintessentially corrupt high priest giving us what is ironically and divinely a prophecy.
就这样，虽然体系腐败，却依然成就了神最奇妙的计划与旨意。 And so here is a corrupt institution that nevertheless yields the most exquisite fulfillment of God’s purpose and plan.
我想，这一点贯穿在若望的叙事之中，与对观福音相 互互补并不矛盾，形成了一部四部和鸣的美妙交响。 I think that runs throughout John’s account, overlapping with complementarity and not contradiction with the synoptic narratives—a wonderful symphony that is fourfold.
那么，尤其现在正值四旬期、即将进入圣周，这些关于祭 献与最后晚餐关联的见解，对我们公教徒有什么影响呢？ How does all of this, especially this understanding of the connection of the sacrifice with the Last Supper, especially as we’re in Lent and we’re heading towards Holy Week, impact us as Catholics?
你提到许多新教徒会对把这看作祭献感到非常震惊。我其实挺好奇 ，作为一个并非新教传统背景的人，他们为什么会如此反感呢？ You mentioned that many of your Protestant brothers and sisters would be horrified to think this was a sacrifice, and I’m actually curious, as somebody that wasn’t raised Protestant, why would they be so upset by this?
嗯，这在新教徒中也因人而异，但他们普遍的想法是 ，祭献就是一次性的、彻底完成了；那是过去的事。 Well, you know, it varies from Protestant to Protestant, but the idea of a sacrifice—well, a sacrifice is once for all, over and done; it’s in the past.
这就是《希伯来书》指的「只一次就够了」。 That’s what Hebrews means by “once for all.”
可若《希伯来书》里「只一次就够了」指的是我们在 天上的大祭司正行的事，那就并非指已经终止了。 But if, in fact, “once for all” in Hebrews is talking about what our high priest in heaven is doing, it’s not “once and for all” in the sense of terminated.
而是指持续不灭、一次而长存。 It’s once for all in the sense of perpetuated.
你并不需要重复祭献，因为当它是永存的，就无所谓重复。 You don’t repeat the sacrifice, but you don’t repeat anything if it’s never-ending.
如果基督在天上的大祭司之祭献是永远的，自然不会一再重复；而是永恒、不断进行的。 If Christ’s high priestly offering is everlasting in heaven, then, of course, it’s not repetitive; it’s everlasting, it’s continuous.
这就是我们所说的常献祭。 It’s what we call a perpetual offering.
不过，我认为你提到的关于四旬期的另一部分更具意义，因为这是一个补赎自省的时节。 But I think the other part of the question about Lent is more significant, and that is this is a penitential season.
讽刺地或者说是在神的护理下，这本书刚好在圣灰礼仪日出版了。 Ironically or providentially, the book came out on Ash Wednesday.
所以在四旬期中，我们要看见耶稣怎样把苦难转化为了祭献。 So in the period of Lent, we have to recognize that Jesus has transformed suffering into sacrifice.
痛苦成为了神之爱的受难。 Pain has become the passion of divine love.
他不仅为我们背上十字架，也让我们背负十字架。 He doesn’t just bear a Cross for us; he bestows crosses on us.
但在那之前，他在每一台弥撒中，一次又一次地把那祝福之杯赐给我们。 But before he does, he gives us the cup of blessing over and over again in every Mass.
这正是他祝圣的第三杯，也是我们的祭司们祝圣的那杯，因为他知 道我们会面对各样的客西马尼时刻，也明白我们终会有临终之日。 It’s the third cup that he consecrates, that our priests consecrate, because he knows that there’s going to be a Gethsemane for us—many of them—and he also knows that there’s going to be an hour of death.
因此，当他在临终时分饮下那第四杯，使死亡化为祈祷、圣礼、祭献 ，生命的失却便成了生命的恩赐——不只给我们，他也藉着圣餐赐给 我们力量，让我们以自身的生命为爱而回馈他给予我们的生命之礼。 So that if he drank the fourth cup at the hour of death, transforming death into prayer, liturgy, sacrifice, the loss of life becomes the gift of life—not just for us, but he empowers us through the Eucharist to make our life a gift of love in return to him for his gift of life to us.
说得真好！ Nice job!
在我看来，这种互惠正是美所在：唯有耶稣死时却没有失去生命。 And that reciprocity, to me, is the beauty: that Jesus alone died without losing his life.
祂将自己的生命化为爱的礼物，并在圣餐中赐给我们同样去做的力量。 He made his life a gift of love, and he empowers us to do that in the Eucharist.
然后，在客西马尼园里，当我们把自己的十字架背到我们的加尔瓦略山，当我们呼 出最后一口气——就像我看见我父母当年那样——你突然就明白耶稣成就了什么。 Then, in the Garden of Gethsemane, when we carry our cross to our Calvary, when we breathe our last—like I saw my mother and my father do—you suddenly see what Jesus has done.
祂已将死亡转化成了完美的生命祭献。 He’s transformed death into the perfect sacrifice of life.
所以，从十字架上传来的呼声「Consummatum es t」——「成了，完成了」——在神秘的层面上，意味着一切的 实存和残破的人性，都被耶稣汇集起来奉献、交还给圣父。 So the cry from the Cross, you know, Consummatum est—it is finished, consummated—means at the mystical level that all of reality, the whole broken human condition, has been gathered up by Jesus and offered, bestowed, returned to the Father.
这是最终极的逾越节。 This is the ultimate Passover.
它究竟是什么呢？ What is it?
「成了」指的是什么呢？ What is finished?
正是逾越节、新约完成了！ The Passover, the New Covenant!
因为我们不是从埃及前往迦南。 Because we’re not coming out of Egypt into Canaan.
我们正从必死的状态进入天上神的荣耀，使死亡成为通往应许之 地的终极通道，与之相比，迦南就像从前在埃及为奴一般了。 We’re coming out of mortality into the glory of God in heaven, so that death becomes the ultimate passage to a promised land that makes Canaan look like Egyptian bondage in comparison.
因此，我们可以对死亡说：「你将被消灭；」生命才是最后的 宣告，我们也可与耶稣同说：「成了，我的逾越节已完成。」 So we’re able to say to death, Thou shalt die; life is the last word, and we can say with Jesus, It is finished; my Passover is complete.
我此刻已预备好进入在天上的应许之地。 I am now ready to enter into the promised land of heaven.
阿们！ Amen!
好的，我们稍后回来时，小组成员和来宾将分享他们对今天主题的最后想法，请继续收看。 Well, when we come back, our panel and guests will have their final thoughts on today’s topic, so please stay with us.
当耶稣喝了那杯酒后说「成了」时，祂指的是什么？ When Jesus said, It is consummated after drinking the wine, what was he referring to?
祂在楼房里与门徒同设立圣餐时开始的逾越节，虽然中途停顿， 如今祂喝下那相当于「完成之第四杯」的酒，便将其彻底完成。 The Passover, which he had begun in the Upper Room with his disciples while instituting the Eucharist, which he had temporarily suspended, he now completes and consummates by drinking the wine that would correspond to the fourth cup of consummation.
跟随富有灵性启发性的神师，参加方济各大学的 朝圣之旅，去探索你所拥有的公教遗产宝藏。 Explore the treasures of your Catholic heritage on a Franciscan University pilgrimage led by inspiring spiritual directors.
你将踏上圣地、波兰、法国及意大利的旅程，追随圣人与殉道者的足迹。 You’ll walk in the footsteps of saints and martyrs in the Holy Land, Poland, France, and Italy.
你会借着每日的弥撒、告解、祈祷，以及基督徒团契的喜乐，更深地爱慕耶稣基督。 You’ll deepen your love for Jesus Christ through daily Mass, confession, prayer, and the joy of Christian fellowship.
就让方济各大学带领你进行这样一趟信仰之旅吧。 Let Franciscan University lead you on a pilgrimage of faith.
详情请上 franciscan.edu/pilgrimages 查询。 Find out more at franciscan.edu/pilgrimages.
欢迎回到「Franciscan University Presents」。 Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
我们已进入今天节目的最后一段。 We’ve come to our final segment.
瑞吉斯，你能先来吗？ Regis, would you start us off?
我脑海里有许多画面和想法，想要努力理出头绪。不过，史考特，你的著作 ——其实你所有的书——让我印象深刻的是其中那极其精彩的自传式风格。 You know, I’m a great welter of images and impressions that I’ll try and make some sense of, but the thing that really struck me, Scott, about your book—and it’s in all of your books—is this marvelous autobiographical strain.
我的意思是，这真的有着极其真挚的自我剖白。 I mean, it’s just marvelously confessional.
在书的结尾处，你提到自己作为公教徒第一次参与弥撒。在领圣餐前 举行祝圣时，你几乎是满怀渴望、热泪盈眶地预备首次领受耶稣。 Near the end of the book, you recount your first Mass as a Catholic, and just before the communion, there’s the consecration, and you are literally salivating and weeping at the prospect of receiving Jesus for the very first time.
要是所有的公教徒都能体验这种激动人心的喜悦，那种期待中的喜乐，该多好啊！ Would that all Catholics could experience that kind of thrill, that anticipatory joy!
我想，这实在太令人惊讶了，因为大多数公教徒走上圣体 栅栏时，常是漠不关心、随意，甚至也许并不真正相信。 I mean, that’s pretty amazing because most Catholics, when they repair to the altar rail, are utterly indifferent, casual, and perhaps even disbelieving.
对他们来说，这似乎毫无意义。 It just doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
然而对你来说，这却是一种带来生命、改变生命的喜乐。 But for you, this was life-giving, life-changing joy.
这让我意识到，基督信仰是我们亲身经历的一场相遇。 And it struck me that Christianity is an event we experience.
当我们品尝、看见、感受并触摸到永生的神时，这正是你整个生 命所指向的——为与永生的神相交而预备，尤其是在圣餐中。 We encounter, when we taste and see and feel and touch the living God, this is exactly what your whole life has been—a preparation for communion with the living God, especially in the Eucharist.
我不禁想到约翰福音中，那一切开始的场景。 And I can’t help but think of that scene in John’s Gospel where it all begins.
安得烈和约翰原本跟随施洗约翰，正在听他教导。 Andrew and John have attached themselves to John the Baptist, and they’re listening to this guy.
人群中有人离开，走开了。施洗约翰突然看见那个人并宣告说：「看哪！神的羔羊。」 There’s somebody in the crowd who breaks off, wanders away, and John suddenly espies him and announces, There goes the Lamb of God.
约翰和安得烈本能地离开，去跟随这位神秘的人。祂 注意到他们走近，就转身问道：「你们要什么？」 Instinctively, John and Andrew break away and follow this mystery man, who notices their approach, turns, and asks them, What are you looking for?
「你们渴求什么？」 What do you desire?
「你们想要什么？」 What do you want?
他们就说：「你住在哪里？」 And they say, Where do you live?
他温和地回应：「你们来看。」 In a very gentle sort of way, he says, Come and see.
我便问自己，如今祂住在哪里呢？ And I ask myself, where does he live now?
祂就住在圣餐之中。 He lives in the Eucharist.
我的意思是，这就是「第四杯」。祂成就了时间与历史， 使与耶稣持续亲近成为可能，而这恰恰借着圣餐实现。 I mean, that’s the Fourth Cup, and his consummation of time and history makes possible this ongoing intimacy with Jesus, which is precisely Eucharistic.
你精准地抓住了重点。这本书非常优美，也是一份美好的见证。 You’ve nailed it, and it’s a beautiful book, a beautiful testimony.
是啊，我觉得里面有很多可细细品味的内容，但其中一个特别打动我的 是，你可以说，那位神圣的「库管」既拿出旧事物，也拿出新的智慧。 Yeah, I mean, so many things to pick from, but one thing really struck me was the sort of, you might say, the wisdom of the divine storekeeper who brings out his store, both old and new.
就像你解释逾越节那样——在最后的晚餐里有旧约的要素：地点在耶路撒 冷，时间在夜间，还有许多其他我们能辨认出「这是逾越节」的部分。 Because the way you explain the Passover—there are the old elements at the Last Supper; it’s in Jerusalem, it’s at night, and all those other elements which we can see: hey, this is the Passover.
但也有出人意料的新元素：并没有那头羔羊——动物意义的羔羊。 And then there’s something startlingly new: there isn’t the lamb—the animal of the lamb.
却有另一只羔羊在其中，而那第四杯并未在那里饮下，而是在别处饮用。 There is a different Lamb which is present, and the fourth cup isn’t drunk there; it’s drunk somewhere else.
此外，你文中提到的另一些事也给我留下了深刻的印象。 And something else from the things you wrote sort of struck me as well.
另一项差异当然是，他们并不喝被献羔羊的血，而是把它倒掉了。 The other difference, of course, is that they didn’t drink the blood of the lamb that was sacrificed; they poured it out.
还有一点不同之处，就是他们所倒出来的血是献给神的。 And there’s a difference there as well because the blood that they poured out was offered to God.
据我对《利未记》第17章的理解，其中部分原因是血唯独属于神。 As far as I understand from the book in Leviticus chapter 17, it’s in part because the blood belonged only to God.
血代表生命，而生命归于神，并且只在敬拜中献给神。 It was the life, and that belongs to God and is only given to God in worship.
再看看在弥撒中，这新逾越节所带给我们的是什么。 And look what we have in the New Passover in the Mass.
诚然，那所倒出的血是「在祂内、藉祂并同祂」献给神，但我们也得以饮 用这血，因为在旧约里本属祂独有的，如今在新约中祂却与我们分享。 Certainly, the blood which is poured out is offered to God in him, through him, with him, but actually, we get to drink that blood because that which in the Old Covenant was his and his alone, in the New Covenant, he shares with us.
在我看来，这正是新旧之别的关键所在：旧约中人们盼望 却无法得的亲密，如今在新约里，神将之赐给我们了。 And that struck me as somehow essentially the difference between the old and the new: the intimacy that was yearned for in the old is something which is almost exclusively God's and is given to us in the new.
这正是人类永恒渴望的真正成全。 That’s really the consummation of an eternal longing of mankind.
我多年来研读圣经，发现约乃是核心：旧约和新约 并非相互对立，而是彼此呼应，却又不完全相同。 In my years of Bible study, I have come to see that the covenant is central—the Old Covenant and the New—and how they’re not opposed; they’re harmonized, but they’re not the same.
在旧约中，人们是具同样血肉的人类家庭；但只有当神进入这人类家庭，我 们才真正能领受作为饮食的血和肉，而不再只是在人间层面形成一家人。 In the Old Covenant, you have a human family that shares flesh and blood, but not until the divine enters into the human family do we really have flesh and blood to eat and drink that binds us not just horizontally as a family.
我们常说：「主是我的牧者；我们是祂的羊群。」 You know, the Lord is my shepherd; we’re the flock.
但当这牧者成为神的羔羊时，约的亲属关系就不再只是人间的，而是出自神的。 But when the shepherd becomes the Lamb of God, suddenly covenant kinship is not merely human; it is divine.
我们所吃所喝的血肉，如你所说，正是与基督之血的共融。 The flesh and the blood that we eat and drink is now, as you say, a communion in the blood of Christ.
而身为法利赛人的扫罗，本来就熟悉「koinonia」和「 haburah」——这是法利赛人信仰核心的希伯来词汇。 And Saul, as a Pharisee, would have been familiar with koinonia, haburah—the Hebrew term that is at the center of the Pharisees' faith.
不过，这是一种横向的共融，不会有法利赛人想 到把它用在垂直角度上，宣称我们与神共融。 But it’s a horizontal communion; nowhere would you ever find a Pharisee applying it vertically to claim that we have communion with God.
不，因为神只是我们之间共融的根源，若说我们与神建立这种至亲关系，就近乎亵渎了。 No, he’s the source of communion among us, but to claim that we enter into this kinship with God borders on blasphemy.
然而如今，这却恰恰成了信经的开端：「我信全能的圣父神」。 And yet now, it is exactly the opening line of the Creed: I believe in God, the Father Almighty.
我们共同分受祂儿子的血肉，祂也超越了牧养羊群的意义，真正成为这大家庭之父。 We share the flesh and blood of his Son, and he fathers this family more than just pasturing a flock.
而新的正应了那旧的，犹如新酒冲破旧皮袋，你明白吗？ And the new fulfills the old like new wine bursts old skins, you know?
你说得很对，这让我想起《马太福音》第十三章末尾所说，从旧的和新的都可以取出来。 There really is a nice sense in which you’re referring to the end of Matthew 13, where you take out of the old and the new.
其中既有相似之处，也存在差异之处。 There is similarity, but there’s also dissimilarity.
我认为最大的差异，正是这四旬期的主旨：在新约里，苦难 成为了祭献，不仅是耶稣替我们受罚，更是祂代表我们。 I think the greatest dissimilarity is precisely what this Lent is all about—and that is suffering in the New Testament becomes sacrificial, not just by Jesus as a substitute, but as a representative.
不仅我们看着发生而已，而要我们切身参与其中。 Not just by our observation but by our participation.
因此，当我们不断地从圣餐得到滋养，不管我们 有没有领那酒杯，都在不断地领受「第三杯」。 So that when we continually draw from the Eucharist, whether we’re receiving from the chalice or not, we are continually receiving the third cup.
但这始终是为「第四杯」作预备。 But it’s always preparation for the fourth cup.
也就是为各种不同的「客西马尼时刻」做预备。 You know, it’s preparation for Gethsemanés of various sorts.
我把我在2012年某次濒临死亡的经历从最后一章里删掉了。当时大 约凌晨四点四十五分，我在威尔斯医学院、威尔斯医院，差点去世。 I excised from the last chapter an account of my own near-death experience back in 2012. I went around 4:45 AM; I was at Weirth Medical School, Weirth Medical Hospital, and I almost died.
我当时由雷神父给予临终礼，并与金柏莉一起诵念玫瑰经。 I had last rites from Father Ray, a rosary with Kimberly.
但在那一刻，这真理突然临到我面前；正要面对死亡 时，我感到主和圣母就在身边，驱散了我的恐惧。 But all of a sudden, this truth came home to me, and facing death, I felt like our Lord and our Lady were there, taking away my fear.
那感觉就像，我的生命并未真的要失去。 Like, I’m not about to lose my life.
我并不想死，但若这是神的旨意，我能将祂浇注我灵魂中的恩惠，尽我所能微薄地回馈。 I don’t want to die, but if it’s God’s will, I get to pay you back the smallest pittance of what you poured into my soul.
所幸的是，对金柏莉、对家人，也对我，我都被保全了。 Fortunately for Kimberly, the family, and for me, I was spared.
主刀医生在极短时间内迅速进行深且长的切开手术，表现十分出色。 The surgeon did an amazing job and had very little time to cut quick and deep and long.
回顾时，我把那经历当作一个启示性的时刻，让我意识到这不只是理论。 But I look back, and I’m going to put that aside as an informative moment for me to realize this is more than theory.
这是实践，不仅是观察，更是参与其中。 This is practice; this is more than observation; this is participation.
这就是我们所说的「把苦难奉献起来」——也就是救 赎性的苦难，不论我们还想怎样形容，都是如此。 This is what we mean by offer it up—redemptive suffering, whatever else we mean, right?
而且它不仅仅只是象征层面，而是真真实实可以让我们参与其中的。 And it’s not just in a symbolic way; it’s a real way that we get to participate in.
携手前行，我们得以成圣。 Hand in hand, we are holy.
正是如此——阿们！ Exactly—amen!
阿们！ Amen!
好的，谢谢你，史考特。 Well, thank you, Scott.
今天的参考资料是一段史考特·韩博士关于「第四杯」的演讲录音 ，你可以在 faithandreason.com 收听。 Today’s handout is an audio recording of a talk on The Fourth Cup given by Dr. Scott Hahn, and you can listen to that at faithandreason.com.
我对此想简单分享一点感想：二十年前我还是你的学生时就 听过这个内容，真是大受恩典，看见一切联系得如此紧密。 My brief thought on this is that I got to hear this as a student of yours 20 years ago and was so blessed by it—just connecting everything together.
这正是其精彩之处。 That was what was great.
当时，我身为一名公教徒，知道有圣周四的礼仪，还有受难日，以及复活主日。 I would say, as a Catholic at the time, I knew there was a Holy Thursday liturgy, I knew there was a Good Friday, I knew there was an Easter Sunday.
我会视当日状况而尽量参加所有这三场礼仪。 I tried to go to all three, depending on what was going on that day.
但当我看清耶稣在最后晚餐、十字架祭献、和复活荣耀之间的连贯后，又留 意到礼仪本身——圣周四开始的礼仪并未结束，而是在受难日继续下去。 But seeing the through line of what Jesus was doing in the Last Supper, the sacrifice of the Cross, and of course the glory of the Resurrection, and then as I paid more closely attention to the liturgy itself—how Holy Thursday begins a liturgy but doesn’t finish it—it continues through Good Friday.
我们在圣周四礼仪开端时划十字，直到复活节守夜礼结束才再度划十字。 We make the sign of the cross at the beginning of Holy Thursday; we don’t do it again until the closing of the Easter Vigil.
这是同一个礼仪庆典，所有人都被邀请参与其中。 It’s the same celebration that we are all invited to be a part of.
再次谢谢各位收看本节目。 So thank you for watching the show.
愿神祝福各位的圣周，期待不久后与各位再相见！ May God bless your Holy Week, and we look forward to seeing you soon!
请前往 faithandreason.com。 Go to faithandreason.com.
在 faithandreason.com 上， At faithandreason.com,
你也可以购买《Franciscan University Presents》过去的节目，或索取今天的免费资料。 you can also purchase past episodes of Franciscan University Presents or request today’s free handout.
你可以拨打 888-333-0381（也就是 888-333-0381 ），或者拨打 740-283-6357 来购买过往的节目。谢谢大家！ You can purchase past programs by calling 888-333-0381—that’s 888-333-0381—or call 740-283-6357. Thank you!