- start: 0.492
  end: 6.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: How does the historical truth of the medieval Crusades compare to the modern myths and legends that surround them?
  zh: 中世纪十字军东征的历史真相与现代流传的神话传说有何不同？
- start: 6.514
  end: 14.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Join us today as we discuss that question with our guest, Dr. Paul Crawford, Professor of Medieval History at California University of Pennsylvania.
  zh: 今天我们邀请到宾夕法尼亚州加利福尼亚大学中世纪历史教授保罗·克劳福德博士，一起探讨这个问题。
- start: 14.576
  end: 21.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I'm Michael Hernon, Vice President of Advancement at Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio, and you're watching Franciscan University Presents.
  zh: 我是迈克尔·赫农，俄亥俄州斯图本维尔方济各大学发展部副校长，您正在收看方济各大学呈现。
- start: 21.858
  end: 22.778
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Stay with us!
  zh: 请继续收看！
- start: 51.843
  end: 54.064
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Welcome to Franciscan University Presents.
  zh: 欢迎收看方济各大学呈现。
- start: 54.064
  end: 56.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Today, we'll be talking about the Crusades.
  zh: 今天，我们将讨论十字军东征。
- start: 56.144
  end: 73.169
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I'm your host, Michael Hernon, Vice President of Advancement here at Franciscan University, joined here in our studios with our regular panelists, Dr. Regis Martin, Professor of Systematic Theology here at Franciscan University, and Dr. Scott Hahn, who holds the Father Michael Scanlon Chair in Biblical Theology and the New Evangelization.
  zh: 我是您的主持人迈克尔·赫农，方济各大学发展部副校长。今天在演播室里还有我们的常驻嘉宾，方济各大学系统神学教授雷吉斯·马丁博士，以及担任迈克尔·斯坎伦圣经神学与新福传讲座教授的斯科特·哈恩博士。
- start: 73.189
  end: 75.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Our special guest is Dr. Paul Crawford.
  zh: 我们的特邀嘉宾是保罗·克劳福德博士。
- start: 75.831
  end: 87.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You have an undergraduate degree from Peru State University, an MA, and a PhD in Medieval History from the University of Wisconsin, and you're currently a Professor of History at California University in Pennsylvania.
  zh: 您在秘鲁州立大学获得学士学位，在威斯康星大学获得硕士和中世纪历史博士学位，目前在宾夕法尼亚州加利福尼亚大学担任历史教授。
- start: 87.498
  end: 96.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Your specialty is the Crusades and the military religious orders, such as the Knights Templar and others, and you have published a number of works on these subjects.
  zh: 您专门研究十字军东征和军事修会组织，比如圣殿骑士团等，并在这些领域发表了多部著作。
- start: 96.378
  end: 97.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: So, we're so glad you're with us here today.
  zh: 我们非常高兴您今天能来到节目中。
- start: 97.919
  end: 98.9
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It's a pleasure to be here.
  zh: 很高兴来到这里。
- start: 98.9
  end: 103.081
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: All right, so we're talking about the Crusades, and there's a lot that goes with that.
  zh: 好的，我们今天要谈十字军东征，这个话题涉及的内容很多。
- start: 103.081
  end: 103.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: But first, let's start.
  zh: 但是让我们先从头开始。
- start: 103.902
  end: 106.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: When we say the Crusades, what are we really referring to?
  zh: 当我们说十字军东征时，究竟指的是什么？
- start: 106.883
  end: 110.124
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Kind of just define Crusades for us.
  zh: 请给我们简单定义一下十字军东征。
- start: 110.265
  end: 131.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, I think what most people are talking about when they think about the Crusades are the eight major expeditions to the Holy Land from Western Europe, beginning in 1095 in the 11th century and running up through the end of the 13th century, to 1270. That's not the only set of expeditions that qualify as Crusades.
  zh: 嗯，我想大多数人谈到十字军东征时，指的是从11世纪1095年开始到13世纪1270年结束的八次西欧到圣地的主要远征。但这并不是全部的十字军东征。
- start: 132.599
  end: 144.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The English historian Jonathan Riley-Smith has defined a crusade as basically an expedition in defense of Christianity, called by the Pope and with strong penitential overtones.
  zh: 英国历史学家乔纳森·莱利-史密斯将十字军东征定义为基本上是一次保卫基督教的远征，由教皇发起，并带有强烈的忏悔色彩。
- start: 144.602
  end: 152.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: That covers expeditions to the Holy Land, to Spain, to the Baltic, to Southern France—so much wider than what we might commonly think.
  zh: 这包括了前往圣地、西班牙、波罗的海和法国南部的远征——范围比我们通常想象的要广得多。
- start: 152.335
  end: 156.797
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Very much wider, and the time frame was much larger, really.
  zh: 确实范围要广得多，而且时间跨度也要长得多。
- start: 156.797
  end: 161.778
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The time frame for the Crusades should be thought of as running from the 11th century into the 17th.
  zh: 十字军东征的时间跨度应该被认为是从11世纪一直延续到17世纪。
- start: 161.778
  end: 162.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_10
  en: Wow!
  zh: 哇！
- start: 162.178
  end: 167.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I would say that the last crusade probably was in 1683 with the relief of the Siege of Vienna.
  zh: 我认为最后一次十字军东征大概是1683年解除维也纳之围的战役。
- start: 167.96
  end: 170.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: So, let's start with why they were waged.
  zh: 那么，让我们从为什么发动十字军东征开始谈起。
- start: 170.161
  end: 175.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: If they had a penitential component to them, there was obviously a military intervention called for by the Pope.
  zh: 如果说它们具有忏悔的成分，显然也有教皇号召的军事干预。
- start: 175.283
  end: 178.484
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I think those were the reasons.
  zh: 我认为这些就是原因。
- start: 178.484
  end: 180.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Why were the Crusades waged?
  zh: 十字军东征为什么会发动？
- start: 181.145
  end: 194.591
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: 'There''s another English historian who has given a very nice, short, concise answer to that: the Crusades were the long-term result of the rise of Islam because they are defensive expeditions in response to Islamic invasion.'
  zh: 另一位英国历史学家对此给出了一个很好的简短答案：十字军东征是伊斯兰兴起的长期结果，因为它们是对伊斯兰入侵的防御性远征。
- start: 194.591
  end: 197.332
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So, a reaction to a provocation.
  zh: 所以，这是对挑衅的一种回应。
- start: 197.332
  end: 202.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Very much so, but they've been given a very bad historical wrap.
  zh: 确实如此，但它们在历史上受到了非常不公平的评价。
- start: 202.434
  end: 203.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yes, unfortunately.
  zh: 是的，很遗憾。
- start: 203.375
  end: 204.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Why is that?
  zh: 这是为什么呢？
- start: 205.638
  end: 207.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: There are complex reasons for that.
  zh: 这其中有复杂的原因。
- start: 207.462
  end: 218.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: A lot of it, I think, goes back to Western self-hatred, really—a rejection of what the Christian West stood for and therefore a rejection of the Christian West's right to defend itself.
  zh: 我认为很大程度上源于西方的自我厌恶——对基督教西方所代表的一切的否定，因此也否定了基督教西方自卫的权利。
- start: 219.026
  end: 223.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Perhaps some of your professors at Wisconsin upheld that view.
  zh: 也许你在威斯康星大学的一些教授也持这种观点。
- start: 223.927
  end: 231.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I would say that it's complicated, though, by the fact that the Reformation really represents a lot of demarcation.
  zh: 不过我要说，宗教改革确实代表了一个重要的分水岭，这使情况变得更加复杂。
- start: 231.269
  end: 248.461
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Because up until the Reformation in the 1500s, there really was a broad consensus among Christians that what was happening was entirely justifiable on moral grounds, through the natural law and on biblical grounds, precisely because they were defensive wars.
  zh: 因为在十六世纪宗教改革之前，基督徒们普遍认同这些行动在道德上、自然法则上和圣经根据上都是完全合理的，正是因为这些都是防御性战争。
- start: 249.262
  end: 253.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: At one point, Islam had basically taken two-thirds of Christendom.
  zh: 在某个时期，伊斯兰实际上已经占领了基督教世界的三分之二。
- start: 253.586
  end: 254.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 255.328
  end: 259.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: It was a slow reaction, but it was an understandable action.
  zh: 虽然反应缓慢，但这是可以理解的行动。
- start: 259.131
  end: 269.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I think Luther, because the Pope called for it, targeted that and said that this was really to extend the tyranny of the papacy.
  zh: 我认为路德因为这是教宗发起的，就针对这一点说这实际上是为了扩张教宗制度的暴政。
- start: 269.218
  end: 270.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's when the questioning began.
  zh: 质疑就是从那时开始的。
- start: 270.659
  end: 275.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And then, of course, the Enlightenment represents an even greater disruption.
  zh: 当然，启蒙运动带来了更大的分裂。
- start: 275.402
  end: 276.543
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Yes, very much so.
  zh: 是的，确实如此。
- start: 276.543
  end: 287.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: And so today, we've got from Luther in the Reformation, the Enlightenment, all the way through to modern scholars, really casting aspersions and settling a lot of misinformation.
  zh: 所以今天，从宗教改革时期的路德，到启蒙运动，一直到现代学者，都在散布诽谤和大量错误信息。
- start: 287.988
  end: 306.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: But, you know, if you zero in on the middle of the 1500s as a kind of flashpoint, or maybe the 1400s, the great primatial sees of Christendom have all been co-opted by Islam, except for Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, and then Constantinople.
  zh: 你知道，如果我们把焦点放在1500年代中期这个关键时期，或者说1400年代，基督教世界的主要教区都已被伊斯兰占领，包括耶路撒冷、亚历山大、安提阿，然后是君士坦丁堡。
- start: 306.589
  end: 314.673
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Only Rome stands, and you would think that the impulse to rally around Rome would be almost irresistible.
  zh: 只有罗马还在坚持，你会认为团结在罗马周围的冲动几乎是不可抗拒的。
- start: 314.673
  end: 320.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, there was an impulse to do that, and even after the Reformation, there was a kind of echo of that impulse.
  zh: 确实有这样的冲动，即使在宗教改革之后，这种冲动的回响仍然存在。
- start: 321.696
  end: 336.304
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: In 1571, after the Battle of Lepanto, which was won by an allied fleet of Venetians, papal forces, and Spanish forces, I think the church bells in England, then Protestant England, were rung in celebration after Lepanto.
  zh: 1571年，勒班陀战役之后，威尼斯、教宗军队和西班牙联合舰队取得胜利，当时已经是新教国家的英格兰也敲响教堂钟声庆祝这场胜利。
- start: 336.304
  end: 341.768
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But then that was all in Spanish, and even Luther changed his mind when Austria was being threatened.
  zh: 但那时都是用西班牙语，而且当奥地利受到威胁时，连路德都改变了想法。
- start: 341.768
  end: 346.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Yes, at that point, it's no longer Rome, and it's not the Pope; it's getting closer.
  zh: 是的，在那个时候，已经不是罗马的问题，也不是教宗的问题了，威胁已经逼近。
- start: 346.471
  end: 354.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Good old German Austria was the great champion of Luther in that particular naval battle, the champion of the Catholic side, right?
  zh: 在那场海战中，路德心目中的德意志奥地利反而成了天主教一方的捍卫者，对吧？
- start: 354.357
  end: 358.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Secured a Christendom for the West.
  zh: 为西方基督教世界赢得了安全。
- start: 358.018
  end: 370.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It should be said that during the Middle Ages, there were people who objected to the Crusades, not so much because they didn't think Christendom should be defended, but because they thought it was the wrong approach—a tactic.
  zh: 应该说在中世纪，有人反对十字军东征，并不是因为他们认为基督教世界不该被保护，而是因为他们认为这是错误的方式——战术上的错误。
- start: 370.322
  end: 371.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yeah, it was the wrong tactic.
  zh: 是的，这是错误的战术。
- start: 371.883
  end: 382.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The great Catalan thinker Ramon Llull, for example, wavered back and forth between arguing in favor of Crusades sometimes and in favor of mission activities at other times.
  zh: 比如，伟大的加泰罗尼亚思想家雷蒙·柳尔，时而支持十字军东征，时而主张传教活动。
- start: 382.502
  end: 390.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: In the end of his life, he was 81, I think, and he went himself to North Africa as a missionary, saying this is what we should do to combat Islam.
  zh: 在他生命的最后，我想是81岁时，他亲自前往北非做传教士，说这才是我们应对伊斯兰的方式。
- start: 390.925
  end: 394.826
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: What happened was he got his skull stabbed by stones.
  zh: 结果他被石头砸破了头骨。
- start: 394.826
  end: 398.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: There's an interesting parallel when you consider the Dominicans.
  zh: 当你想到道明会时，会发现一个有趣的相似之处。
- start: 398.467
  end: 421.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: They were founded in order precisely to win back the Albigensians in Southern France, but that particular Crusade came to a crashing halt when these wonderful friars walked into these Albigensian villages to preach and to pray and, by example and exhortation, win them back to Rome.
  zh: 他们成立的目的正是为了赢回法国南部的阿尔比派教徒，但当这些优秀的修士走进阿尔比派的村庄传教祈祷，以身作则和劝诫来使他们回归罗马时，那场特定的十字军东征就戛然而止了。
- start: 421.343
  end: 422.424
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: They were simply ignored.
  zh: 他们完全被忽视了。
- start: 422.424
  end: 424.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: They were ignored, and therefore force had to be used.
  zh: 他们被忽视了，因此不得不使用武力。
- start: 424.645
  end: 426.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: The secular arm had to step in.
  zh: 世俗力量不得不介入。
- start: 426.486
  end: 430.388
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Albigensian Crusade is an interesting case study for crusading.
  zh: 阿尔比派十字军运动是一个很有趣的研究案例。
- start: 430.388
  end: 439.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Church gets criticized for having used force against the Albigensians, against the Cathars, but in fact, there was a canonical reason why they needed to do it and do it quickly.
  zh: 教会因对阿尔比派和卡塔里派使用武力而受到批评，但实际上，他们这样做是有教会法理由的，而且必须迅速行动。
- start: 439.245
  end: 449.11
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: According to canon law, at least at the time, and I think now still, you're not considered a heretic if you are not the person who instigated the defective beliefs.
  zh: 根据当时的教会法，我想现在也是如此，如果你不是那个引发错误信仰的人，就不会被视为异端。
- start: 449.811
  end: 458.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The people who had instigated those beliefs that generation was about to die off, so the Church was about to be in a position where it couldn't do anything about it if it didn't act quickly.
  zh: 那一代引发这些信仰的人即将去世，所以如果教会不迅速采取行动，就会陷入无能为力的境地。
- start: 458.337
  end: 473.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You just made a point that I want to go back to for a moment because there is a sense in which Christians who are sympathetic to the goals of the Crusades nevertheless can call into question the strategic value, you know, even presenting from the morality.
  zh: 你刚才提到的一点我想重新讨论一下，因为即使是同情十字军运动目标的基督徒，也会质疑其战略价值，甚至从道德角度来看也是如此。
- start: 473.916
  end: 484.543
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Because I think that what shocked me the most in preparing for this show was just how clear and strong the case for the Crusades is.
  zh: 因为在准备这个节目时，最让我震惊的是十字军运动的理由是如此清晰和有力。
- start: 484.543
  end: 492.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But practically, from a prudential standpoint, only the first Crusade in the 11th century was a limited success.
  zh: 但从实际的审慎角度来看，只有十一世纪的第一次十字军运动取得了有限的成功。
- start: 493.127
  end: 502.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Most of the other ones that are typically called Crusades—and even that language is anachronistic because the term wasn't even used by the Christians until really, I think, the 19th century.
  zh: 其他那些通常被称为十字军运动的行动——甚至这个词本身都是时代错误的，因为我认为直到十九世纪基督徒才开始使用这个词。
- start: 502.432
  end: 506.814
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It was used in the High Middle Ages, but not in the first century, probably not in the First Crusade.
  zh: 这个词在盛期中世纪使用过，但在第一世纪没有，在第一次十字军运动时可能也没有。
- start: 506.814
  end: 510.355
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Well, 11th and 12th—no, it wasn't. Yeah, it became a term of oppression.
  zh: 嗯，十一世纪和十二世纪——不，当时没有。是的，它后来变成了一个压迫性的词汇。
- start: 513.94
  end: 525.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Missions, you know, what St. Francis of Assisi is doing in seeking to evangelize and seeking after martyrdom as well, you know, I think is a real exemplary alternative.
  zh: 你知道，传教使命，就像阿西西的圣方济各寻求传播福音和追求殉道那样，我认为这是一个真正典范性的替代方案。
- start: 525.522
  end: 527.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It was, but it wasn't very effective.
  zh: 确实是这样，但效果并不很好。
- start: 527.002
  end: 527.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 527.643
  end: 527.943
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's right.
  zh: 确实如此。
- start: 527.943
  end: 530.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And he also preached the Crusades himself in the Franciscans.
  zh: 而且他本人在方济会中也宣讲过十字军东征。
- start: 530.723
  end: 535.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: But I mean, this crusading spirit, I think, is exemplified in a diversity of ways.
  zh: 但我的意思是，我认为这种十字军精神体现在多种形式中。
- start: 535.804
  end: 537.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Francis represents one way.
  zh: 方济各代表了其中一种方式。
- start: 537.564
  end: 543.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: I think taking up arms on behalf of Christendom constitutes another equally legitimate.
  zh: 我认为为基督教世界拿起武器是另一种同样正当的方式。
- start: 543.706
  end: 551.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: 'Yes, and the thing that''s at the core of both of those impulses is Jesus'' words: Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.'
  zh: 是的，这两种冲动的核心都是耶稣的话：「人为朋友舍命，人的爱心没有比这个大的。」<foot>约15:13。</foot>
- start: 551.308
  end: 556.49
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Francis and Ramon Llull were doing it in one way when Francis went to talk to the Sultan on the Fifth Crusade.
  zh: 当方济各在第五次十字军东征期间去与苏丹对话时，他和雷蒙·柳尔是用一种方式实践这种爱。
- start: 556.49
  end: 562.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Crusaders were doing it in another way, and they very much conceived of themselves as doing that.
  zh: 十字军战士们则用另一种方式，他们非常清楚地认为自己是在实践这种爱。
- start: 562.174
  end: 567.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: 'This is an important point: they saw the Crusades as an act of love on behalf of other Christians.'
  zh: 这是一个重要观点：他们将十字军东征视为代表其他基督徒的爱的行动。
- start: 567.66
  end: 577.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You make that point that it was an act of love, but help the modern mind and our sensibilities, and also those who understand what the Church is teaching in just war and so forth.
  zh: 你提出这是一种爱的行为，但请帮助现代人的思维和我们的感受，也帮助那些理解教会关于正义战争等教导的人理解。
- start: 578.331
  end: 585.256
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: We say that there was a strong case for the Crusades, but this is the Pope calling for what some would call a religious war.
  zh: 我们说十字军东征有充分的理由，但这是教宗在号召一场某些人称之为宗教战争的行动。
- start: 586.577
  end: 591.961
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Walk me through how this fits within Catholic teaching on just war.
  zh: 请为我解释这如何符合天主教关于正义战争的教导。
- start: 592.327
  end: 594.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It's rather easy, actually.
  zh: 实际上这很容易解释。
- start: 595.769
  end: 602.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Just war theory, of course, is the theory that says that there are some wars that are not only just, but it would be unjust not to fight them.
  zh: 正义战争理论当然是说，有些战争不仅是正义的，而且不打这些仗反而是不正义的。
- start: 603.154
  end: 607.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It draws on a tradition going back to Augustine and St. Ambrose.
  zh: 这源自于追溯到奥古斯丁和圣安布罗修的传统。
- start: 607.296
  end: 614.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: And St. Ambrose said something very interesting that has always stuck with me ever since I read it, and I'm going to paraphrase it, of course.
  zh: 圣安布罗修说过一段很有趣的话，自从我读到后就一直记在心里，我现在要意译一下。
- start: 614.281
  end: 631.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: He said, if you see someone doing a wrong deed, you see someone using force on someone else, someone acting unjustly to someone else, and you have the means to stop it, and you don't, you're morally guilty of that act that has been carried out by the perpetrator.
  zh: 他说，如果你看到有人做坏事，看到有人对他人使用暴力，看到有人对他人不公，而你有能力阻止却不阻止，那么你在道德上就要为作恶者所做的事负责。
- start: 631.734
  end: 632.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: That includes force.
  zh: 这包括使用武力。
- start: 632.574
  end: 638.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: If you have the ability to stop an unjust act by force and you fail to do it, you're morally guilty of it.
  zh: 如果你有能力用武力制止不义之事却没有这样做，你在道德上就要为此负责。
- start: 638.217
  end: 641.959
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I think that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says something much the same.
  zh: 我想《公教会教理》也说了类似的话。
- start: 642.099
  end: 654.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: There's a beautiful line in Romano Guardini where he says, I think quite prophetically, that at the end of the day, the sin of Cain and the sin of Pilate are morally indistinguishable.
  zh: 罗马诺·瓜尔迪尼有一句很精彩的话，我认为很有预见性，他说到最后，该隐的罪和彼拉多的罪在道德上是没有区别的。
- start: 654.229
  end: 662.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: I mean, to kill your brother—that's murder—but not to intervene on behalf of your brother is equally murderous.
  zh: 我的意思是，杀害你的兄弟是谋杀，但不为你的兄弟挺身而出同样是谋杀。
- start: 662.091
  end: 671.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Let me shift this, though, because it's not just an individual responsibility to intervene when you see another individual perpetrating some kind of violence.
  zh: 不过让我换个角度，因为这不仅仅是当你看到他人施暴时个人要介入的责任。
- start: 671.713
  end: 679.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I think even more so when you have been entrusted with the responsibility of, say, caring for and protecting your family.
  zh: 我认为当你被赋予照顾和保护家人的责任时，这种责任更大。
- start: 679.875
  end: 692.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: As a father of six and now a grandfather of nine, I have the sense, you know, certainly the shepherd lays down his life for his sheep, but he doesn't lay the sheep down in their lives.
  zh: 作为六个孩子的父亲和九个孙辈的祖父，我深知，牧人确实要为羊舍命，但他不会让羊去送命。
- start: 692.056
  end: 697.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You know, and even better than laying down your life would be laying down the lives of the wolves who are attacking the sheep.
  zh: 你知道，比舍己更好的是除掉那些攻击羊群的狼。
- start: 699.338
  end: 702.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: To not do so would be a serious dereliction of duty.
  zh: 不这样做就是严重失职。
- start: 705.52
  end: 741.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I remember hearing people say when I was in Istanbul, Constantinople, about the conquest, and we had a Muslim guy who explained how merciful the dhimma was—that is, the enslavement of Christians.
  zh: 我记得当我在伊斯坦布尔（君士坦丁堡）时，听人们谈论征服，有个穆斯林解释迪米制度多么仁慈——也就是对基督徒的奴役制度。
- start: 741.032
  end: 744.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: It's the payment of a tax, and you're allowed to worship privately.
  zh: 就是缴纳人头税，允许你私下敬拜。
- start: 744.813
  end: 750.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You can't display anything publicly; you can't share the faith publicly, but you can do it all privately.
  zh: 你不能公开展示任何东西，不能公开分享信仰，只能私下进行。
- start: 750.095
  end: 755.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And then the tax is raised to the point where Christian families simply can't afford it.
  zh: 然后人头税被提高到基督徒家庭根本无法承担的程度。
- start: 755.839
  end: 764.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And he said, well, provisions were made, though, and out stepped these two, a couple from Malta, who said the provisions were the firstborn son.
  zh: 他说，不过也有其他安排，这时一对马耳他夫妇站出来说，这个安排就是交出长子。
- start: 765.573
  end: 770.419
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: It was shades of Egypt; you forfeited your firstborn son if you couldn't pay the tax.
  zh: 这让人想起埃及的往事；如果你付不起税，就要交出你的长子。
- start: 770.459
  end: 775.025
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And they didn't just take a few; they took a lot, and they trained them as Muslim military.
  zh: 他们不是只拿走几个，而是拿走很多，并把他们训练成穆斯林军人。
- start: 775.025
  end: 778.009
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's the foundation of the Janissaries in Turkey.
  zh: 这就是土耳其禁卫军的由来。
- start: 778.009
  end: 782.155
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And this Muslim guy did not view that as somehow reprehensible?
  zh: 这个穆斯林竟然不认为这有什么可责备的吗？
- start: 782.155
  end: 801.089
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Well, once the Maltese couple stepped forward and spoke up, he was mum because they were rehearsing the history of the attack on Malta and how the first wave of Muslim militants were the children of the Christians who had been forfeited instead of the tax to be the warriors.
  zh: 当那对马耳他夫妇站出来说话时，他就沉默了，因为他们在重述马耳他遭受攻击的历史，以及第一波穆斯林战士如何是那些基督徒为抵税而被迫交出的孩子。
- start: 801.089
  end: 804.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I think that's a crucial point.
  zh: 我认为这是一个关键点。
- start: 804.071
  end: 813.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: So we have the Pope and the Church at the time calling out of an obligation—an obligation to step in—and they did it out of love.
  zh: 所以当时的教宗和教会是出于责任——介入的责任——而且他们是出于爱而这样做。
- start: 814.006
  end: 816.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: But distinguish a little bit deeper.
  zh: 但让我们更深入地区分一下。
- start: 816.348
  end: 829.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Some people cast aspersions on the Christian activity versus, kind of, differentiate the Muslim jihad versus what we would have in a Christian response.
  zh: 有些人诽谤基督徒的行动，试图区分穆斯林圣战和基督徒的回应。
- start: 829.229
  end: 830.61
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Once again, it's pretty easy to do.
  zh: 再说一次，这很容易解释。
- start: 830.61
  end: 840.596
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Muslim jihad is a religious obligation for Muslims to extend the area that Muslim law is observed, the Dar al-Islam.
  zh: 穆斯林圣战是穆斯林的宗教义务，目的是扩大伊斯兰法律实施的范围，即伊斯兰世界。
- start: 840.596
  end: 845.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: In Islamic terms, it doesn't have to be done by violence, but it certainly can be and very often is.
  zh: 从伊斯兰的角度来说，这不一定要通过暴力来实现，但它确实可以而且经常是通过暴力实现的。
- start: 845.796
  end: 849.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So jihad is something that is aggressive and expansionistic.
  zh: 所以圣战是一种侵略性和扩张性的行为。
- start: 850.299
  end: 852.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Christian idea of crusading is exactly the opposite.
  zh: 基督教十字军东征的理念恰恰相反。
- start: 852.981
  end: 854.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's defensive.
  zh: 它是防御性的。
- start: 854.643
  end: 859.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Crusades were never ever supposed to conquer land that had never been Christian.
  zh: 十字军东征从来就不是要征服那些从未成为基督教地区的土地。
- start: 860.026
  end: 868.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It is designed to protect Christians who are either under attack or under the kind of dhimma, the kind of servitude that you're talking about, Scott.
  zh: 它的目的是保护那些正在遭受攻击或者处于你所说的迪米制度下、那种奴役状态下的基督徒。
- start: 871.455
  end: 873.016
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's a completely different kind of thing.
  zh: 这是完全不同的两回事。
- start: 873.016
  end: 881.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's a defensive, reactive kind of activity that is, as we've been talking about, designed as an act of love to protect those who need to be protected.
  zh: 这是一种防御性的、被动的行动，就像我们讨论的，是出于爱来保护那些需要保护的人。
- start: 881.164
  end: 882.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So, kind of really the exact opposite.
  zh: 所以，这确实是完全相反的。
- start: 882.965
  end: 887.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The two are very often equated as being the same kind of thing, but they're night and day, really.
  zh: 这两者经常被等同视之，但它们实际上是天壤之别。
- start: 887.707
  end: 890.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: And I think that's the crucial thing.
  zh: 我认为这是关键所在。
- start: 890.068
  end: 897.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: When the Crusades are brought up, it's like, Oh, well, they all were in it equally, and they both have blood on their hands.
  zh: 当人们提到十字军东征时，就说，哦，他们都一样，双方手上都沾满了鲜血。
- start: 897.152
  end: 904.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It's a very, very different historical case, and that's what you're both making in your writing and your teaching—really showing that.
  zh: 这是一个完全不同的历史案例，这正是你们在写作和教学中所展示的。
- start: 904.875
  end: 910.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Stay with us on Franciscan University Presents as we go into some of the myths behind the Crusades.
  zh: 请继续收看方济各大学呈现，我们将探讨十字军东征背后的一些误解。
- start: 920.822
  end: 930.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: When I teach my classes on the medieval world and the history of Islam, and I talk about the Crusades, I make sure to mention to my students the positive fruits of the Crusades.
  zh: 当我教授中世纪世界和伊斯兰历史的课程，谈到十字军东征时，我一定会向学生们提到十字军东征带来的积极成果。
- start: 931.484
  end: 934.225
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: One of which is the expansion of Europe economically.
  zh: 其中之一就是欧洲经济的扩张。
- start: 934.225
  end: 946.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In particular, there was a huge economic upswing in the High Middle Ages, and there was also this evangelical awakening in the High Middle Ages with the interest in the Holy Land.
  zh: 特别是在盛期中世纪，经济出现了巨大的上升，同时由于对圣地的兴趣，也出现了福音传播的觉醒。
- start: 946.509
  end: 961.074
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There was more interest in reading and living the Gospel, living the apostolic lifestyle, and many more people were much more interested in the imitation of Christ and living life in the imitation of Christ.
  zh: 人们对阅读和实践福音、过使徒生活方式更感兴趣，更多的人热衷于效法基督、过效法基督的生活。
- start: 961.283
  end: 969.221
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, you see new religious orders founded and even lay apostolic movements founded in the High Middle Ages.
  zh: 因此，你看到在盛期中世纪建立了新的修会，甚至建立了平信徒使徒运动。
- start: 969.221
  end: 970.022
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm Dan McNally.
  zh: 我是丹·麦克纳利。
- start: 970.022
  end: 972.404
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm a theology major here at Franciscan University.
  zh: 我是方济各大学的神学专业学生。
- start: 972.404
  end: 974.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I love studying theology; it's my passion.
  zh: 我热爱研究神学，这是我的热情所在。
- start: 974.205
  end: 976.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I mean, I love learning too.
  zh: 而且，我也热爱学习。
- start: 976.627
  end: 979.629
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You walk out of the classroom wanting to know more; you don't want the lecture to end.
  zh: 你走出教室时还想知道更多；你不希望讲座结束。
- start: 979.629
  end: 984.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So, I mean, that's the really great thing about being a part of a student body is you can continue to discuss outside.
  zh: 所以，我是说，作为学生群体中的一员真正好的地方是你可以在课外继续讨论。
- start: 984.393
  end: 993.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's not just studying to make a grade; it's learning to, you know, improve yourself, and not just through your own personal prayer or your own personal study, but through community, because that's what we're made for.
  zh: 这不仅仅是为了获得分数而学习；这是为了提升自己而学习，不仅通过个人祈祷或个人学习，还通过团体，因为这就是我们被创造的目的。
- start: 994.021
  end: 998.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
  zh: 方济各大学在学术上追求卓越，在信仰上热忱天主教。
- start: 999.315
  end: 1005.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: People recognize Franciscan University as being academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
  zh: 人们认可方济各大学学术卓越和对天主教的热忱。
- start: 1005.198
  end: 1014.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We have a unique opportunity through our faculty members and through our students to proclaim that academic excellence by reaching out in many different ways.
  zh: 通过我们的教职员工和学生，我们有独特的机会以多种方式展现这种学术卓越。
- start: 1014.644
  end: 1024.589
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We also remain passionately Catholic in the way in which we are able to worship and the way in which we are able to bring that love of Christ to others on a daily basis.
  zh: 我们也在敬拜方式上保持对天主教的热忱，并在日常生活中将基督的爱带给他人。
- start: 1024.97
  end: 1027.831
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: It's important for us to be able to embrace both.
  zh: 对我们来说，能够同时拥抱这两者很重要。
- start: 1037.946
  end: 1040.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
  zh: 欢迎回到方济各大学呈现。
- start: 1040.389
  end: 1042.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Today, we're talking about the Crusades.
  zh: 今天，我们讨论十字军东征。
- start: 1042.752
  end: 1047.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: This is something that people do get hit at as Catholics oftentimes.
  zh: 这是天主教徒经常遭受抨击的话题。
- start: 1047.639
  end: 1052.305
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It's seen in popular films like The Kingdom of Heaven, which contain a lot of historical inaccuracies.
  zh: 这在像《天国王朝》这样的流行电影中可以看到，这些电影包含许多历史错误。
- start: 1052.405
  end: 1059.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Even a former president, you know, Bill Clinton, talked about some things that were historically inaccurate.
  zh: 你知道，就连前总统比尔·克林顿也说过一些历史上不准确的事情。
- start: 1059.147
  end: 1062.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I was going to say problematic, but I think they're really inaccurate.
  zh: 我本想说这些说法有问题，但我认为它们实在是不准确。
- start: 1063.168
  end: 1070.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: 'You know, the quote that we hear—we''ve already dealt with kind of the myth: Were the Crusades an aggression of the Catholic Church?'
  zh: 你知道，我们听到的那些说法——我们已经讨论过这种误解：十字军东征是公教会的侵略吗？
- start: 1070.931
  end: 1079.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: And we've already seen that that really is debunked because the reality is it was a defensive maneuver, and it was the Muslims who first attacked.
  zh: 我们已经看到这种说法被驳斥了，因为现实是这是一种防御性行动，是穆斯林首先发动攻击。
- start: 1079.267
  end: 1088.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: So, when the Crusades captured Jerusalem in 1099, did the blood really run ankle-deep in the streets, which is an exact quote?
  zh: 那么，当十字军在1099年占领耶路撒冷时，街道上真的血流成河、深及脚踝吗？这是一个确切的引述。
- start: 1088.854
  end: 1092.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Was it an accurate tale of the massacres perpetrated by Christians?
  zh: 这是关于基督徒制造大屠杀的准确描述吗？
- start: 1092.476
  end: 1096.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Because, again, a former president even used that exact quote.
  zh: 因为，再说一次，连前总统都用了这个确切的引述。
- start: 1096.117
  end: 1096.978
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yes, it did.
  zh: 是的，他确实说过。
- start: 1097.138
  end: 1098.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The short answer is no.
  zh: 简单的答案是不是。
- start: 1098.098
  end: 1099.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: There's a longer answer.
  zh: 还有一个更详细的答案。
- start: 1099.179
  end: 1107.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The short answer is due to physics; it would take far too many people to make it run as deep as President Clinton said it did.
  zh: 简单的答案是基于物理学；要让血流深度达到克林顿总统所说的程度，需要的人数远远太多了。
- start: 1107.426
  end: 1114.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: He was drawing on a Crusade chronicle to make that statement, Fulcher of Chartres, but he was using it very clumsily.
  zh: 他引用了夏特尔的富歇所写的十字军编年史来做这个陈述，但他使用得很笨拙。
- start: 1114.971
  end: 1118.052
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: You can't take ancient and medieval documents at face value.
  zh: 你不能照字面理解古代和中世纪的文献。
- start: 1118.052
  end: 1123.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: You have to know the context that they're writing in, and you have to know the purpose of what they're saying.
  zh: 你必须了解他们写作的背景，也必须了解他们说这些话的目的。
- start: 1123.296
  end: 1146.748
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Fulcher was writing something that was very significantly an advertising tract, a PR tract, and a little bit of a boastful statement, pulling in and drawing on Old Testament imagery—very consciously drawing on Old Testament imagery of victories that the Israelites had won over their foes and saying, We're doing the same kind of thing.
  zh: 富歇写的实际上是一篇宣传文章，一篇公关文章，带有一些夸耀的成分，他借鉴并运用了旧约的意象——他有意识地运用了以色列人战胜敌人的旧约意象，说我们在做同样的事。
- start: 1147.289
  end: 1150.71
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But no, the blood did not run to the horse's bridles or knees or whatever.
  zh: 但是不，血并没有流到马的嚼环或膝盖或其他什么地方。
- start: 1150.71
  end: 1155.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: This is all drawn from the Book of Revelation as well; it's from the Old Testament.
  zh: 这些都是取自启示录，也来自旧约。
- start: 1155.092
  end: 1160.475
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But the whole point is to show that the struggle, the conflict, is between evil and good.
  zh: 但整个要点是要表明这场斗争，这场冲突，是善与恶之间的较量。
- start: 1160.475
  end: 1162.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yes, it's not meant to be taken factually or mathematically.
  zh: 是的，这不是要按事实或数学来理解。
- start: 1162.916
  end: 1163.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 1163.517
  end: 1172.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And it's very problematic, even if you concede the point that Clinton is making, and it's polemically self-serving.
  zh: 即使你承认克林顿的观点，这也很有问题，而且这种说法带有争议性的自我服务倾向。
- start: 1172.506
  end: 1178.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Something survives, namely the fact that abuses and atrocities have always been committed.
  zh: 有一点是存在的，就是滥用和暴行确实一直都有。
- start: 1178.854
  end: 1187.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: But the principle of abusus non tollit usum (abuse does not negate use) should govern the situation that vindicates it.
  zh: 但是'滥用不废用'的原则应该支配这种情况的辩护。
- start: 1187.397
  end: 1189.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: The abuse doesn't abolish the use.
  zh: 滥用并不废除正当使用。
- start: 1189.838
  end: 1202.96
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: We committed countless atrocities during World War II to rid the world of that scourge called Nazism, but nobody invalidates that crusade in Europe, which is how Eisenhower described it.
  zh: 在第二次世界大战中，为了清除纳粹这个祸害，我们也犯下了无数暴行，但没有人否定艾森豪威尔所说的那场欧洲十字军的正当性。
- start: 1202.98
  end: 1204.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: That's a very good parallel.
  zh: 这是一个很好的类比。
- start: 1204.86
  end: 1215.022
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But there's something else that needs to be mentioned in terms of that massacre, and that is the laws of war that applied universally to everyone in the ancient and medieval world and really up into the modern world.
  zh: 但关于那场屠杀还有一点需要提及，那就是在古代和中世纪，乃至近代世界中普遍适用于所有人的战争法则。
- start: 1215.022
  end: 1224.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: When a city is besieged, if it surrenders, then it can make terms, and the lives and, to a certain degree, perhaps the property of the people in the city are spared.
  zh: 当一座城市被围攻时，如果投降，就可以谈条件，城中居民的生命和在某种程度上的财产可以得到保全。
- start: 1224.568
  end: 1233.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: If a city decides to resist and take its chances, then if it falls to storm, everything—the people, the belongings in the city—belongs to the conqueror.
  zh: 如果一座城市决定抵抗冒险，那么一旦被攻破，城中的一切——人民和财物——都属于征服者。
- start: 1233.792
  end: 1240.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Now, that may be very unpleasant, and I certainly would not want to be present at such an event on either the conquering or the defeated side, but that is the law.
  zh: 这当然很不愉快，我肯定不想在这样的事件中成为征服者或被征服者的一方，但这就是法则。
- start: 1240.316
  end: 1241.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: This was the common law.
  zh: 这是当时的通行法则。
- start: 1241.336
  end: 1246.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: The Muslims observed it fastidiously, ruthlessly.
  zh: 穆斯林严格且无情地遵守这一法则。
- start: 1246.099
  end: 1257.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: When you look at how the Muslims conquered Christian lands for centuries, building up until 1099 when Jerusalem falls, you see a horrendous record that is completely whitewashed and forgotten.
  zh: 当你看到穆斯林几个世纪以来如何征服基督教地区，一直到1099年耶路撒冷陷落，你会看到一段被完全粉饰和遗忘的可怕历史。
- start: 1257.526
  end: 1271.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: 'And I think more to the point is this: I think we project our own self-contempt in acting as though this was all, you know, proto-colonialization—that this was our attempt, you know, as the First World to kind of colonize the Third World.'
  zh: 更重要的是：我认为我们投射了自己的自我蔑视，把这一切都当作是原始殖民化——好像这是我们作为第一世界试图殖民第三世界的尝试。
- start: 1271.318
  end: 1276.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But as you've pointed out, and as Professor Tom Madden has pointed out, Islam was the First World.
  zh: 但正如你和汤姆·马登教授指出的，伊斯兰才是当时的第一世界。
- start: 1276.884
  end: 1281.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: The Muslim civilization was the superpower, really, up until about the 16th century.
  zh: 穆斯林文明确实是超级大国，一直到16世纪左右。
- start: 1281.409
  end: 1293.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Europe, through the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries, was more like a Third World, and they were the ones who were being colonized by force, you know, with Asia Minor falling as it did in the 11th century and so on.
  zh: 在11、12和13世纪，欧洲更像是第三世界，他们才是被强行殖民的对象，就像11世纪小亚细亚的陷落等等。
- start: 1293.317
  end: 1307.725
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: 'Yes, and we don''t have nearly enough time to list all the Muslim massacres of Christian cities, but just to list two or three: Christmas Eve 1144 in Edessa, the Muslims broke into the first Crusader state and massacred all—they targeted specifically all the Frankish Christians.'
  zh: 是的，我们没有足够的时间列举所有穆斯林对基督教城市的屠杀，但仅举两三个例子：1144年平安夜在埃德萨，穆斯林攻入第一个十字军国家，屠杀所有人——他们特别针对所有法兰克基督徒。
- start: 1307.725
  end: 1310.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It was really an act of ethnic cleansing or genocide; they killed them all.
  zh: 这实际上是一次种族清洗或种族灭绝；他们杀光了所有人。
- start: 1310.888
  end: 1320.124
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Two years later, when the Armenian Christians there asked for the Crusaders to come back and save them from the Muslims and rule them, the Muslims came back again and killed all the Armenian Christians.
  zh: 两年后，当那里的亚美尼亚基督徒请求十字军回来拯救他们脱离穆斯林统治时，穆斯林又回来杀光了所有亚美尼亚基督徒。
- start: 1320.336
  end: 1335.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: In 1268, the Muslims took Antioch, the capital of that northern Crusader state, and massacred so many of the Christians there that most of the noble families of Antioch simply disappear from the historical record—they're all dead.
  zh: 1268年，穆斯林占领了北方十字军国家的首都安提阿，屠杀了如此多的基督徒，以至于安提阿大多数贵族家族从历史记录中消失了——他们都死了。
- start: 1336.726
  end: 1341.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: In 1453, the fall of Constantinople saw enormous massacres and rapes of nuns.
  zh: 1453年，君士坦丁堡陷落时发生了大规模屠杀和对修女的强暴。
- start: 1342.449
  end: 1345.311
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I mean, this is all part of the laws of war.
  zh: 我是说，这都是战争法则的一部分。
- start: 1346.035
  end: 1351.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: If you're going to criticize what happened in 1099 in Jerusalem, you need to look at the larger record.
  zh: 如果要批评1099年在耶路撒冷发生的事，就需要看看更大的历史背景。
- start: 1351.8
  end: 1365.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You also have to look at Dresden in 1944, the firebombing of the city that did more devastation to a civilian population than Nagasaki and Hiroshima put together for days and nights.
  zh: 你还要看看1944年的德累斯顿，那场持续数日的大轰炸对平民造成的破坏比长崎和广岛加起来还要严重。
- start: 1365.169
  end: 1394.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You know, with the calm detachment of a B-24 bomber or whatever, and I am not pro-Nazi in any sense, but when you look at the abuses and when you recognize the fact that this is more than morally questionable—this is reprehensible, morally reprehensible—and the details that you marshal, I think with great scholarly rigor and scruple, you have to see those against the backdrop of a world that is simply vanishing—a Christian world.
  zh: 你知道，就像B-24轰炸机那样冷静地看待这件事，我绝不是支持纳粹，但当你看到这些暴行，认识到这不仅在道德上值得质疑——这是应该谴责的，在道德上应该谴责的——而且你以严谨的学术态度列举的这些细节，你必须把它们放在一个正在消失的世界背景下来看——一个基督教世界。
- start: 1394.891
  end: 1395.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: It disappears.
  zh: 它消失了。
- start: 1395.992
  end: 1403.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: I mean, two-thirds of Christendom is gone, vaporized in the space of what, a century or two?
  zh: 我是说，基督教世界三分之二消失了，在一两个世纪的时间里蒸发了？
- start: 1403.238
  end: 1410.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Most of the Mediterranean world is vacated, and the Muslims simply take over; they swallow it whole.
  zh: 地中海世界的大部分都被清空了，穆斯林简单地接管了；他们整个吞并了。
- start: 1411.104
  end: 1414.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Why wouldn't there be a Crusade to try to win this back?
  zh: 为什么不会有十字军东征来试图夺回这些呢？
- start: 1414.146
  end: 1417.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, sometimes people say, Well, it took a long time for the Crusaders to respond.
  zh: 嗯，有时人们说，十字军花了很长时间才做出回应。
- start: 1417.988
  end: 1423.751
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It took 450 or so years; it took that long for a Crusade to be declared.
  zh: 花了大约450年；用了这么长时间才宣布十字军东征。
- start: 1423.751
  end: 1426.012
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But it did not take that long for Christians to counterattack.
  zh: 但基督徒并没有用那么长时间才开始反击。
- start: 1426.012
  end: 1428.373
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Christians have been counterattacking in other ways.
  zh: 基督徒一直在用其他方式反击。
- start: 1428.373
  end: 1431.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Byzantines, the Eastern Christians, have been counterattacking repeatedly.
  zh: 拜占庭人，东方基督徒，一直在反复反击。
- start: 1432.035
  end: 1436.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: In the 10th century, Byzantine armies got as far into the Holy Land as Nazareth.
  zh: 在10世纪，拜占庭军队深入圣地，一直到拿撒勒。
- start: 1436.53
  end: 1442.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Their logistic lines got overextended, and they couldn't make it any further and had to withdraw, but they were trying.
  zh: 他们的后勤补给线过长，无法继续前进只能撤退，但他们一直在尝试。
- start: 1442.474
  end: 1444.735
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Italians and the Southern French were trying.
  zh: 意大利人和南法兰西人也在尝试。
- start: 1444.735
  end: 1448.197
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Spanish were beginning their Reconquista in the Spanish peninsula.
  zh: 西班牙人在伊比利亚半岛开始了收复失地运动。
- start: 1448.197
  end: 1453.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So there are plenty of other earlier examples of Christian forces counterattacking.
  zh: 所以有很多基督教力量早期反击的例子。
- start: 1453.26
  end: 1461.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: It's breathtaking when you contrast, for example, the world of Augustine in the fourth and fifth centuries—all of North Africa is Christian.
  zh: 比如，当你对比奥古斯丁时代四五世纪的世界时，会感到震惊——整个北非都是基督教地区。
- start: 1461.341
  end: 1464.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: A thousand years later, none of it is.
  zh: 一千年后，全都不是了。
- start: 1464.121
  end: 1464.761
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: What happened?
  zh: 发生了什么？
- start: 1464.761
  end: 1476.043
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Well, within one or two centuries, when you look at what Muhammad did in a short life, he was a teacher, but he was a warrior first and foremost—and a very effective one.
  zh: 在一两个世纪内，当你看穆罕默德在短暂的一生中所做的事，他是一个教师，但首先是一个战士——而且是一个非常有效的战士。
- start: 1476.043
  end: 1481.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And Muslims are not quiet about that; they're very proud and grateful for his legacy.
  zh: 穆斯林对此并不讳言；他们为他的遗产感到非常自豪和感激。
- start: 1481.624
  end: 1490.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: So when you compare Jesus and Muhammad and the two religions they founded, when Christians simply kill in the name of Christ, they're often betraying their founder.
  zh: 所以当你比较耶稣和穆罕默德以及他们创立的两个宗教时，当基督徒以基督的名义杀戮时，他们往往是在背叛他们的创始人。
- start: 1490.39
  end: 1506.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But when Muslims follow Muhammad in conquering the Dar al-Jihad, that part of the world that has not submitted to the Dar al-Islam, this is something of imitative behavior, and it's something that is virtuous in their understanding.
  zh: 但当穆斯林效仿穆罕默德征服圣战地区，即那些尚未归顺伊斯兰世界的地区时，这是一种模仿行为，在他们的理解中这是一种美德。
- start: 1506.725
  end: 1513.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: As uncomfortable as that makes us feel, it's time to grow up and look at them from their own perspective.
  zh: 尽管这让我们感到不舒服，但是是时候成熟起来，从他们自己的角度来看待他们了。
- start: 1513.991
  end: 1522.899
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: This also helped me understand why, really, until the 19th century, Muslims did not think that the Crusaders were these vandals.
  zh: 这也帮助我理解为什么直到19世纪，穆斯林都不认为十字军是野蛮人。
- start: 1524.687
  end: 1533.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: They respected Christian warfare as an attempt to kind of match; these were honest adversaries.
  zh: 他们尊重基督徒的战争是一种势均力敌的尝试；这些是诚实的对手。
- start: 1533.014
  end: 1537.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Even in the course of the Crusades, the Muslims preferred honest, wholehearted Christian adversaries.
  zh: 即使在十字军东征期间，穆斯林也更喜欢诚实、全心全意的基督徒对手。
- start: 1537.659
  end: 1547.948
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: On the Sixth Crusade, the German Emperor Frederick II went to negotiate, not fight, and went out of his way to badmouth Christians to his Muslim hosts.
  zh: 在第六次十字军东征中，德国皇帝腓特烈二世去谈判而不是战斗，还特意在穆斯林东道主面前诋毁基督徒。
- start: 1547.948
  end: 1554.405
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: His Muslim hosts were offended and basically said to him, Why don't you be a good Christian and play your own side?
  zh: 他的穆斯林东道主感到被冒犯，基本上是在对他说，你为什么不做个好基督徒，站在自己这边？
- start: 1554.405
  end: 1555.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Fight!
  zh: 战斗吧！
- start: 1555.186
  end: 1556.126
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Stop being a traitor.
  zh: 别当叛徒了。
- start: 1556.126
  end: 1564.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And again, we want to say that this is not to deny the evils that were happening at the time of the Crusades.
  zh: 再说一次，我们并不是要否认十字军东征时期发生的邪恶行为。
- start: 1564.071
  end: 1570.697
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You know, there were views at times by the Crusaders—Pope Urban II condemned that, as did Bernard of Clairvaux.
  zh: 你知道，十字军有时也有一些观点——教宗乌尔班二世谴责过这些，克莱尔沃的伯尔纳也是如此。
- start: 1570.697
  end: 1571.278
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 1571.278
  end: 1572.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: That was not an integral part of the Crusade.
  zh: 那不是十字军东征的本质部分。
- start: 1572.92
  end: 1575.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: No, in fact, it was a violation of the spirit.
  zh: 不，事实上，那是对精神的违背。
- start: 1575.483
  end: 1583.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: There were plenty of violations of the spirit and of the rules for the Crusades, but that, as you said, doesn't invalidate the principle.
  zh: 确实有许多违背十字军东征精神和规则的行为，但正如你所说，这并不能否定其原则。
- start: 1583.291
  end: 1596.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: And just to go to another myth here, just in our limited amount of time, I mean, it's often brought up—you know, we just talked about some of the atrocities that are often thrown around that are really missing context and are historically inaccurate.
  zh: 在我们有限的时间里，让我们谈谈另一个误解，我是说，人们经常提到的——你知道，我们刚才谈到的那些经常被提及的暴行，实际上是缺乏背景且历史上并不准确的。
- start: 1596.88
  end: 1605.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Was there a motivation, as a lot of people talk about, as a motivation of greed and wealth and trying to capture all of this?
  zh: 正如很多人谈论的，是否有贪婪和财富的动机，试图夺取这一切？
- start: 1605.946
  end: 1607.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Put that in some historical context.
  zh: 请把这放在历史背景中解释一下。
- start: 1607.767
  end: 1613.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: No, that's a myth.
  zh: 不，那是个误解。
- start: 1613.152
  end: 1615.353
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I could answer that question simply by saying no.
  zh: 我可以简单地用'不是'来回答这个问题。
- start: 1615.974
  end: 1620.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Let me tell you an interesting story that I just discovered the other day from the 13th century.
  zh: 让我给你讲一个我最近发现的13世纪的有趣故事。
- start: 1620.858
  end: 1626.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: There was a French nobleman, Enguerrand de Coucy, who was a jerk, to put it technically.
  zh: 有一个法国贵族，恩格兰·德·库西，用专业术语来说，他是个混蛋。
- start: 1626.861
  end: 1632.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: He found some young men trespassing on his property, and he executed them just for trespassing.
  zh: 他发现一些年轻人擅自闯入他的领地，仅仅因为擅闯就处决了他们。
- start: 1632.108
  end: 1637.154
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Basically, the case went to Louis IX, King Louis of France, who was a Crusader king.
  zh: 这个案件最终呈到了路易斯九世面前，这位法国国王也是一位十字军王。
- start: 1637.513
  end: 1647.736
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Louis tried him, found him guilty, and among other things, sentenced him to three years of crusading, which he had redeemed by paying 12,000 livres, which is a huge amount of money.
  zh: 路易斯审判了他，判他有罪，除其他惩罚外，还判他去参加三年十字军东征，他后来用12,000里弗赎回了这个刑罚，这是一笔巨额钱财。
- start: 1648.137
  end: 1658.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I'm telling you that story to show you that by the middle of the 13th century, crusading was viewed as so difficult, so dangerous, and so expensive that it was along the lines of a fine.
  zh: 我讲这个故事是要说明到13世纪中期，参加十字军东征被视为如此艰难、危险和昂贵，以至于成为一种惩罚。
- start: 1658.021
  end: 1665.328
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: So instead of a penitentiary sentence being slapped on him, this was a penitential sentence, which happened very many times to a lot of people.
  zh: 所以这不是监禁刑罚，而是一种忏悔性的惩罚，这种情况发生在很多人身上。
- start: 1665.328
  end: 1672.513
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: So people weren't rushing off to make their money in the Crusades; it became a means of atonement.
  zh: 所以人们并不是急着去十字军东征赚钱；它成了一种赎罪的方式。
- start: 1672.994
  end: 1680.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: One of the reasons that people think it was an opportunity to make your fortune is, again, going back to Fulcher of Chartres' chronicle.
  zh: 人们认为这是发财机会的原因之一，又要回到夏特尔的富歇的编年史。
- start: 1680.2
  end: 1689.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The same one that said that Jerusalem's streets ran so deeply with blood also said, Come east and become rich and get a large amount of land to rule.
  zh: 同样是说耶路撒冷街道血流成河的那本书也说，来东方吧，你会变得富有，获得大片土地统治。
- start: 1690.034
  end: 1695.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: That's an advertising brochure, and it's probably not much more accurate than the ones you get for condos in Florida.
  zh: 那是一本宣传册，其准确性可能不比你收到的佛罗里达公寓广告高多少。
- start: 1695.941
  end: 1698.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yeah, or Join the army and see the world, pretty much.
  zh: 是啊，就像「参军可以看世界」差不多。
- start: 1698.505
  end: 1700.227
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: And they often had to fund it.
  zh: 而且他们经常需要自己出资。
- start: 1700.227
  end: 1709.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: In reading all of your articles, there are a number of references to them having to fund it, and upwards of six years' worth of taxes for one of the kingdoms to just fund the Crusade.
  zh: 在读你所有的文章时，有很多提到他们必须自筹资金，其中一个王国仅仅为了资助十字军东征就要付出相当于六年的税收。
- start: 1709.857
  end: 1721.764
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: On the Seventh Crusade for Louis IX, it's very hard to translate medieval money into modern money, but roughly speaking, for a knight to go on crusade, it would have cost him about the equivalent of $250,000 today.
  zh: 在路易斯九世的第七次十字军东征中，很难把中世纪的钱换算成现代货币，但粗略说来，一个骑士参加十字军东征的花费相当于今天的25万美元。
- start: 1721.764
  end: 1726.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So they had to do things like this; it was voluntary.
  zh: 所以他们不得不这样做；这是自愿的。
- start: 1727.668
  end: 1729.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Their lives were at stake.
  zh: 他们的生命处于危险之中。
- start: 1729.069
  end: 1734.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: In the First Crusade, many of them—most—did not return, and the losses are staggering.
  zh: 在第一次十字军东征中，他们中的许多人——大多数人——没有回来，损失令人震惊。
- start: 1734.412
  end: 1737.194
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: The losses are very high; I think you're looking at a 75% casualty rate.
  zh: 损失非常高；我想伤亡率达到了75%。
- start: 1737.194
  end: 1740.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That's pretty high; that's an unbelievable figure.
  zh: 这太高了；这是个难以置信的数字。
- start: 1740.096
  end: 1741.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Well, can you explain?
  zh: 那么，你能解释一下吗？
- start: 1744.438
  end: 1757.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: 'This is a puzzle that I need to have you figure out for us: the widespread caricature, which strikes me as pretty wicked, because the points you make are transparently obvious.'
  zh: 这是一个我需要你为我们解答的奥秘：那些广泛流传的讽刺漫画，在我看来相当邪恶，因为你提出的观点明显是正确的。
- start: 1757.252
  end: 1761.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Why haven't others cottoned on to it, particularly scholars?
  zh: 为什么其他人没有意识到这一点，特别是学者们？
- start: 1761.261
  end: 1767.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: You came out of the University of Wisconsin, which is sort of a hotbed of liberal scholarship.
  zh: 你来自威斯康星大学，那是自由派学术的温床。
- start: 1767.108
  end: 1768.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: How did you survive that?
  zh: 你是如何在那里生存下来的？
- start: 1768.709
  end: 1773.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And the students you teach now, what do they make of these claims?
  zh: 现在你教的学生，他们对这些说法有什么看法？
- start: 1773.795
  end: 1776.457
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, the answer to your first question is grazie.
  zh: 好吧，对你第一个问题的回答是grazie。
- start: 1778.84
  end: 1782.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Crusade historians actually have done a rather good job of dispelling the myths.
  zh: 十字军历史学家实际上在消除这些误解方面做得相当不错。
- start: 1782.796
  end: 1787.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: What we haven't done a good job of is crossing the divide from Crusade history to the public.
  zh: 我们做得不够好的是跨越十字军历史与公众之间的鸿沟。
- start: 1789.04
  end: 1790.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: We've been trying.
  zh: 我们一直在努力。
- start: 1790.061
  end: 1795.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I talked to one of my friends about this a few years ago and said, How long is it going to take us to get the record straightened out?
  zh: 几年前我和一个朋友谈到这个问题，说要花多长时间才能纠正这些记录？
- start: 1796.225
  end: 1798.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: And he said, Probably never.
  zh: 他说，可能永远都不会。
- start: 1798.707
  end: 1807.994
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: What we need is a Sir Stephen Runciman on our side because, I mean, that author in the early '50s basically just swept the world like a literary tsunami.
  zh: 我们需要一个站在我们这边的斯蒂芬·朗西曼爵士，因为，我是说，那位50年代初的作者基本上像文学海啸一样席卷了全世界。
- start: 1807.994
  end: 1811.077
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I mean, everybody was reading him.
  zh: 我是说，每个人都在读他的作品。
- start: 1811.398
  end: 1815.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And when I sat down and read him, I knew these were lies, but man, can he write!
  zh: 当我坐下来读他的作品时，我知道这些都是谎言，但天啊，他写得真好！
- start: 1815.183
  end: 1819.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But they're very well told—beautiful and very compelling.
  zh: 但它们讲得非常好——优美而且很有说服力。
- start: 1819.168
  end: 1835.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: This Oxbridge English series needs to be rewritten; it needs to be redone by somebody who understands the historical record of the Crusades and can encapsulate that in the same kind of language, the glamour of the lack of history.
  zh: 这个牛津剑桥英语系列需要重写；需要由一个了解十字军东征历史记录的人重新撰写，用同样优美的语言，展现历史缺失的魅力。
- start: 1835.664
  end: 1838.547
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, he understands how to tell stories and to tell stories very well.
  zh: 嗯，他知道如何讲故事，而且讲得很好。
- start: 1838.547
  end: 1842.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But it's easy to do because the Crusades are full of exciting and beautiful stories.
  zh: 但这很容易做到，因为十字军东征充满了激动人心和美丽的故事。
- start: 1842.93
  end: 1852.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: The anti-Christian approach that you find in Voltaire and then raised by Gibbon and Sir Walter Scott was a minority report.
  zh: 你在伏尔泰作品中发现的反基督教观点，后来又被吉本和沃尔特·司各特爵士提出，当时只是少数派观点。
- start: 1852.414
  end: 1858.077
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Now it's beyond a majority report; it's in the water supply and in the air we breathe.
  zh: 现在它已经不仅仅是多数派观点；它已经渗入水源，存在于我们呼吸的空气中。
- start: 1858.077
  end: 1862.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: When I went to the Holy Land, it's the only thing you hear from Christians.
  zh: 当我去圣地时，这是你从基督徒那里听到的唯一说法。
- start: 1863.32
  end: 1879.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: As well, there was a group of Protestants in 1999 that went on an apology walk, a reconciliation walk, and apologized for the Crusades to every Muslim, which must have struck the local Christians in the area as a little odd—something grotesque about that.
  zh: 同样，1999年有一群新教徒进行了一次道歉之旅，一次和解之旅，向每个穆斯林为十字军东征道歉，这在当地基督徒看来一定很奇怪——有点怪诞。
- start: 1879.625
  end: 1888.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: In a very short few moments here, can you speak to the myth surrounding indulgences being offered for killing Muslims?
  zh: 在这短短的几分钟里，你能谈谈关于杀死穆斯林就能获得赎罪券这个误解吗？
- start: 1888.628
  end: 1889.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Was that accurate?
  zh: 这是准确的吗？
- start: 1889.449
  end: 1892.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: No, that's your short answer.
  zh: 不，这就是简短的答案。
- start: 1892.351
  end: 1898.596
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: There’s no indulgence being given for killing Muslims because that is definitely something, again, perpetuated as part of myth and legend.
  zh: 没有因杀死穆斯林而获得赎罪券的事，这又是一个被不断传播的神话和传说。
- start: 1898.596
  end: 1907.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Bernard of Clairvaux said in his In Praise of the New Knighthood that it was a good and virtuous act to kill Muslims, is what he meant, if you had to do it.
  zh: 克莱尔沃的伯尔纳在他的《新骑士颂》中说，如果不得不这样做，杀死穆斯林是一种善行和美德，这是他的意思。
- start: 1907.763
  end: 1912.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But it would be better, he said—and he was very careful to say this—it would be better if we didn't have to do it.
  zh: 但他说——他很谨慎地说——如果我们不必这样做会更好。
- start: 1912.187
  end: 1914.368
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: We only do this when we have to do it.
  zh: 我们只在不得不做的时候才这样做。
- start: 1914.468
  end: 1916.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yeah, distinctions like that don't make the headlines.
  zh: 是的，这样的细微区别不会成为头条。
- start: 1916.769
  end: 1921.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: No, they don't. But it's not even a minor distinction; he was very clear about it.
  zh: 确实不会。但这甚至不是小区别；他说得很清楚。
- start: 1921.552
  end: 1921.952
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You hope.
  zh: 但愿如此。
- start: 1921.952
  end: 1923.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You hope.
  zh: 但愿如此。
- start: 1923.372
  end: 1925.954
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Stay with us on Franciscan University Presents.
  zh: 请继续收看方济各大学呈现。
- start: 1925.954
  end: 1929.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: My name is Kelly Butler, and I'm a Communication Arts major.
  zh: 我叫凯利·巴特勒，我是传播艺术专业的。
- start: 1929.095
  end: 1934.978
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: I took Independent Digital Filmmaking—definitely intense, many all-nighters in the editing lab getting things done.
  zh: 我选修了独立数字电影制作——确实很紧张，在剪辑实验室熬了很多通宵完成作业。
- start: 1934.978
  end: 1941.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: 'Pope John Paul II has a quote: Do not be afraid to go out into the streets and into public places to preach Christ like the first apostles.'
  zh: 教宗若望保禄二世有一句话：不要害怕像最初的使徒一样走上街头，在公共场所传扬基督。
- start: 1942.248
  end: 1945.649
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: That's what we're called to as Catholics and as Christians.
  zh: 这就是我们作为天主教徒和基督徒的召叫。
- start: 1945.649
  end: 1950.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: You have that responsibility that every work you create should reflect Christ.
  zh: 你有责任让你创作的每一个作品都反映基督。
- start: 1950.771
  end: 1955.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
  zh: 方济各大学在学术上追求卓越，在信仰上热忱拥抱公教会。
- start: 1955.894
  end: 1963.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Explore the treasures of your Catholic heritage on a Franciscan University pilgrimage led by inspiring spiritual directors.
  zh: 在富有启发性的灵修指导者带领下，通过方济各大学朝圣之旅探索你的公教会传统瑰宝。
- start: 1963.897
  end: 1977.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: You'll walk in the footsteps of saints and martyrs in the Holy Land, Poland, France, and Italy, and you'll deepen your love for Jesus Christ through daily Mass, confession, prayer, and the joy of Christian fellowship.
  zh: 你将在圣地、波兰、法国和意大利追随圣人和殉道者的足迹，通过每日弥撒、告解、祈祷和基督徒团契的喜乐加深对耶稣基督的爱。
- start: 1977.484
  end: 1981.207
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Let Franciscan University lead you on a pilgrimage of faith.
  zh: 让方济各大学带领你踏上信仰朝圣之旅。
- start: 1981.248
  end: 1983.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Find out more at franciscan.edu.
  zh: 欲知详情，请访问franciscan.edu。
- start: 1995.043
  end: 1997.464
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
  zh: 欢迎回到方济各大学呈现。
- start: 1997.464
  end: 2002.186
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: This entire program springs forth from the very heart of Franciscan University.
  zh: 这整个节目源自方济各大学的核心。
- start: 2002.386
  end: 2005.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It's being taped right now in our Communication Arts studio.
  zh: 现在正在我们的传播艺术工作室录制。
- start: 2006.308
  end: 2008.929
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Our students are operating the cameras and equipment.
  zh: 我们的学生在操作摄像机和设备。
- start: 2008.929
  end: 2012.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Our panelists, as well as myself, are here at Franciscan University.
  zh: 我们的嘉宾和我本人都在方济各大学。
- start: 2013.031
  end: 2019.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Dr. Crawford, we've been talking about the Crusades, and I really appreciate you unpacking some of the myths.
  zh: 克劳福德博士，我们一直在讨论十字军东征，我真的很感谢你揭示了一些误解。
- start: 2019.638
  end: 2029.328
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You mentioned something as we kind of closed out about this apology walk, and I and others may have thought Pope John Paul actually apologized for the Crusades.
  zh: 在我们结束时你提到了这个道歉之旅，我和其他人可能认为教宗若望保禄二世确实为十字军东征道歉了。
- start: 2029.328
  end: 2031.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Could you help set the record straight?
  zh: 你能帮我们澄清事实吗？
- start: 2031.109
  end: 2035.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Sure, he didn't. I like your very short answers.
  zh: 当然可以，他没有道歉。我喜欢你的简短回答。
- start: 2036.054
  end: 2038.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, there are short ones and there are unpacked ones.
  zh: 嗯，有简短的回答，也有详细的解释。
- start: 2038.536
  end: 2046.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: He did not apologize for the Crusades; he apologized for things that Catholics might have done that were wrong in the course of the Crusades, which is a very different proposition.
  zh: 他并没有为十字军东征道歉；他为天主教徒在十字军东征过程中可能做错的事情道歉，这是完全不同的概念。
- start: 2046.383
  end: 2048.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And it wasn't hypothetical; he didn't say might have done.
  zh: 而且这不是假设性的；他没有说「可能做过」。
- start: 2048.185
  end: 2052.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: He acknowledged that there were things that were wrong.
  zh: 他承认确实有一些错误的事情。
- start: 2052.048
  end: 2054.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: The Crusades themselves were not the thing that he apologized for.
  zh: 十字军东征本身并不是他道歉的对象。
- start: 2054.871
  end: 2056.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: No, they were not.
  zh: 不，确实不是。
- start: 2056.912
  end: 2069.423
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: No, he did not and really could not, because the Crusades were designed and supported and promulgated by centuries and centuries of his predecessors as an activity of the Church stemming really from the Magisterium.
  zh: 不，他没有也确实不能这样做，因为十字军东征是由他的历代前任教宗设计、支持和颁布的教会活动，这真正源自训导权。
- start: 2069.764
  end: 2073.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So you really cannot, as a Catholic, say that the Crusades were unjustified.
  zh: 所以作为天主教徒，你确实不能说十字军东征是不正当的。
- start: 2073.187
  end: 2081.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: You can say that this or that action in the Crusades was unjustified, and that's fine, and I can pick some out and tell you about them, although there are probably fewer than most people think.
  zh: 你可以说十字军东征中的这个或那个行为是不正当的，这没问题，我可以举出一些例子告诉你，虽然可能比大多数人想象的要少。
- start: 2081.914
  end: 2086.677
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But you cannot say that crusading as an activity is unjustified; the Church has already spoken on that.
  zh: 但你不能说十字军东征这个行动本身是不正当的；教会已经对此表态了。
- start: 2086.677
  end: 2091.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And also a disproportionate ratio of Muslim violence to Christians.
  zh: 而且穆斯林对基督徒的暴力行为比例也是不成比例的。
- start: 2091.68
  end: 2092.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yes, indeed.
  zh: 是的，确实如此。
- start: 2093.301
  end: 2114.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: 'When I was in the Holy Land repeatedly, but earlier this year, it''s one of those things where I go with my wife, and I have to brace myself because invariably she will speak up in defense of the Byzantines and of the Crusaders, and I just watch and wait for the blowback because from our own fellow Catholic pilgrims, there''s this backlash: This was evil.'
  zh: 我多次去圣地，今年早些时候去的时候，每次和妻子一起去，我都要做好心理准备，因为她总是会站出来为拜占庭人和十字军辩护，而我就在一旁观察等待反应，因为来自我们天主教朝圣者同伴的反应总是：这是邪恶的。
- start: 2114.708
  end: 2116.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: This was diabolical; this was satanic.
  zh: 这是魔鬼的；这是撒但的。
- start: 2116.469
  end: 2126.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And then we have to kind of sift and sort and indicate that no, this has got to be something that we revisit because, as a matter of historical fact, there are a lot of misunderstandings.
  zh: 然后我们不得不筛选和整理，指出不，这是我们必须重新审视的事情，因为从历史事实来看，存在很多误解。
- start: 2126.354
  end: 2127.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Yes, there are.
  zh: 是的，确实存在很多误解。
- start: 2127.375
  end: 2128.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I think that's crucial.
  zh: 我认为这很关键。
- start: 2128.115
  end: 2132.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: That's why we're here, is that there is so much fact and fiction.
  zh: 这就是我们在这里的原因，因为有太多事实和虚构。
- start: 2132.137
  end: 2144.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: I think in reconstructing an accurate historical record, it helps to invoke this theme of love, of charity, which is, I think, at the heart of the crusading enterprise.
  zh: 我认为在重建准确的历史记录时，引入爱与慈善这个主题很有帮助，我认为这正是十字军事业的核心。
- start: 2144.307
  end: 2150.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: It's animated by love; it's a defense of Christendom, which is not a juridical theory—it's an act of love.
  zh: 它是由爱驱动的；它是对基督教世界的防卫，这不是一个法律理论——这是一种爱的行为。
- start: 2150.813
  end: 2154.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: 'You want to give to the other that which you most esteem: Jesus Christ.'
  zh: 你想给予他人你最珍视的：耶稣基督。
- start: 2154.977
  end: 2162.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And if he’s already assimilated himself to Christ, then he needs to be protected and preserved.
  zh: 如果他已经归依基督，那么他就需要得到保护和维护。
- start: 2162.453
  end: 2170.12
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: If Muslims are bent on subjugating him to an alien creed, then good men ought to intervene to protect him.
  zh: 如果穆斯林执意要强迫他归顺异教，那么善良的人就应该介入保护他。
- start: 2170.12
  end: 2175.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yes, and you said something important and interesting there—that is, we need to go back and look at what they thought of what they were doing.
  zh: 是的，你说了一些重要和有趣的事情——就是，我们需要回过头来看看他们当时是如何看待自己所做的事情的。
- start: 2175.925
  end: 2176.785
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 2176.985
  end: 2186.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: And you need to do it carefully because it's easy to take a modern mentality back to medieval sources and say, Oh, I know what they’re talking about, as in the case with Fulcher of Chartres, who said the blood ran this deep, so he must have meant it.
  zh: 而且你需要谨慎地做这件事，因为很容易用现代思维去解读中世纪的资料，说：「哦，我知道他们在说什么」，就像夏特尔的富歇说血流得那么深，所以他一定是字面意思。
- start: 2186.769
  end: 2188.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: No, he didn't mean it.
  zh: 不，他不是那个意思。
- start: 2190.811
  end: 2200.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Historians need to be careful and respectful, and they need to approach primary sources—the sources of the time—with humility and listen to what those people are saying about themselves.
  zh: 历史学家需要谨慎和尊重，他们需要以谦逊的态度接近原始资料——当时的资料——倾听那些人是如何谈论他们自己的。
- start: 2200.003
  end: 2200.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Why did they do it?
  zh: 他们为什么要这样做？
- start: 2200.783
  end: 2201.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: What did they think they were doing?
  zh: 他们认为他们在做什么？
- start: 2201.963
  end: 2203.824
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Why did they think they had to do it?
  zh: 他们为什么认为他们必须这样做？
- start: 2204.064
  end: 2217.473
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: If you read Crusade history sources with that level of humility and that ability to listen to what they have to say, you will come up with a very different idea about what the Crusades were than what you find in U.S. News and Time.
  zh: 如果你以这种谦逊的态度和倾听的能力去阅读十字军历史资料，你会对十字军东征形成一个与《美国新闻》和《时代周刊》完全不同的认识。
- start: 2217.473
  end: 2229.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: 'I would love for you to just unpack that a little bit: what was in the mind of the average person in medieval Christendom, if you will, in light of the Crusades?'
  zh: 我希望你能稍微详细解释一下：在十字军东征的背景下，中世纪基督教世界的普通人是怎么想的？
- start: 2229.223
  end: 2230.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: What did they think?
  zh: 他们是怎么想的？
- start: 2230.024
  end: 2234.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I mean, not the PR version, if you will, but what was really in the mind of those?
  zh: 我是说，不是宣传版本，而是他们内心真实的想法是什么？
- start: 2234.908
  end: 2236.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: How did they view the Crusades?
  zh: 他们如何看待十字军东征？
- start: 2236.409
  end: 2240.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, first of all, once again, to keep repeating this, they viewed it as an act of love.
  zh: 首先，再说一次，他们把它视为一种爱的行为。
- start: 2240.411
  end: 2246.735
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: They also viewed it very significantly—and we forget this in the modern world—but they very significantly viewed it as an act of penance.
  zh: 他们也非常重要地——这是我们在现代世界忘记的——把它视为一种忏悔的行为。
- start: 2246.955
  end: 2254.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Crusading and penance, as in penance after confession, was a very significant element of the Crusades.
  zh: 十字军东征和忏悔，就像告解后的补赎一样，是十字军东征的一个非常重要的元素。
- start: 2254.179
  end: 2259.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It was unpleasant, it was expensive, it was dangerous, and it was likely to result in your death.
  zh: 这是不愉快的，昂贵的，危险的，而且很可能导致死亡。
- start: 2260.102
  end: 2266.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It was an extension of pilgrimage, per se, as being an act of penance.
  zh: 它本质上是朝圣的延伸，作为一种忏悔的行为。
- start: 2266.112
  end: 2274.637
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: This is an armed pilgrimage that is even more dangerous and difficult than an ordinary pilgrimage, and it's a way to expiate the temporal penalties for your sins.
  zh: 这是一种武装朝圣，比普通朝圣更危险和困难，这是一种赎清罪过的现世惩罚的方式。
- start: 2274.637
  end: 2276.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's a huge sacrifice.
  zh: 这是一个巨大的牺牲。
- start: 2276.097
  end: 2282.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: When you consider Chaucer's account of the pilgrimage to Canterbury, those pilgrims knew they'd come back.
  zh: 当你想到乔叟描述的坎特伯雷朝圣时，那些朝圣者知道他们会回来。
- start: 2282.361
  end: 2287.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Yes, but if you go to Jerusalem to liberate the holy places, the likelihood is you'll never come back.
  zh: 是的，但如果你去耶路撒冷解放圣地，很可能你永远都不会回来。
- start: 2287.963
  end: 2291.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: On the First Crusade, it may have been as many as three-fourths of the participants who didn't come back.
  zh: 在第一次十字军东征中，可能有多达四分之三的参与者没有回来。
- start: 2291.585
  end: 2296.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You know, there's a disconnect here that I think can be overcome, at least in part, by an analogy.
  zh: 你知道，这里有一个断层，我认为至少可以通过类比部分克服。
- start: 2296.606
  end: 2314.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Because, you know, I think many of us have read Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation, and you can see through the eyes of men just like my dad what it was like to fight and sacrifice and to go overseas, either in the Pacific theater or the European theater, and how many lives were lost, but how much more than just life was lost.
  zh: 因为，你知道，我想我们很多人都读过汤姆·布罗考的《最伟大的一代》，你可以通过像我父亲这样的人的眼睛看到战斗、牺牲和远征海外是什么样的，无论是在太平洋战场还是欧洲战场，不仅失去了多少生命，还失去了比生命更多的东西。
- start: 2314.562
  end: 2318.724
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I mean, it was a tremendous sort of secular penance.
  zh: 我的意思是，这是一种巨大的世俗忏悔。
- start: 2319.345
  end: 2325.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You can look at it cynically after the fact and say, No, it was just an attempt to kind of spread things American.
  zh: 你可以事后愤世嫉俗地说，不，这只是试图传播美国价值观。
- start: 2325.37
  end: 2333.473
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You know, we celebrate Veterans Day; we celebrate Memorial Day, and rightly so, because we recognize the virtue of patriotism and the sacrifices.
  zh: 你知道，我们庆祝退伍军人节，我们庆祝阵亡将士纪念日，这是对的，因为我们认可爱国主义的美德和牺牲。
- start: 2333.713
  end: 2339.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But when you fight world wars to make the world safer for democracy and economic freedom, that's one thing.
  zh: 但当你为了使世界对民主和经济自由更安全而打世界大战时，这是一回事。
- start: 2339.316
  end: 2356.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But if you're going to fight to make the world safe for religious freedom and the Christian faith, for the Christian families that have been conquered and captured and enslaved and forcibly converted, it seems to me that is not a lower priority; it's a higher priority.
  zh: 但如果你要为了宗教自由和基督教信仰而战，为那些被征服、被俘虏、被奴役和被强迫改变信仰的基督教家庭而战，在我看来这不是更低的优先级；这是更高的优先级。
- start: 2356.091
  end: 2358.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And that is a good definition of what the Crusades are about.
  zh: 这就是对十字军东征的一个好定义。
- start: 2358.414
  end: 2370.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: In your elaboration of this myth—a four-part myth—one of the charges that is typically made is that these guys were governed by cynicism; they didn't believe the prophet.
  zh: 在你对这个四部分神话的阐述中，一个典型的指控是这些人被愤世嫉俗所支配；他们不相信先知。
- start: 2370.804
  end: 2372.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: It was all claptrap.
  zh: 这都是胡说八道。
- start: 2372.185
  end: 2379.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: They were driven by a lust for conquest and money and a kind of weird piety, but all of that is balderdash.
  zh: 他们被征服欲、金钱欲和一种奇怪的虔诚所驱使，但这些都是胡说。
- start: 2379.889
  end: 2390.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: They were driven by this desire to liberate something sacred, something precious, and they were prepared to make a supreme sacrifice of self—their own blood.
  zh: 他们被解放神圣之物、珍贵之物的愿望所驱使，他们准备做出最高的自我牺牲——献出自己的鲜血。
- start: 2390.888
  end: 2403.555
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I'm working on a biography of a Crusade leader, Renaud of Châtillon, who was murdered by Saladin after the Battle of Hattin in 1187. His grandfather, I believe it was, was the Lord of Danzig and the Count of Chalon in northern France.
  zh: 我正在写一本十字军领袖夏蒂永的雷诺的传记，他在1187年哈丁战役后被萨拉丁杀害。我相信是他的祖父，是但泽的领主和法国北部沙隆的伯爵。
- start: 2403.555
  end: 2407.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The County of Chalon was a significant principality—a county, rather.
  zh: 沙隆伯爵领是一个重要的领地——准确说是一个伯爵领。
- start: 2407.998
  end: 2412.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: His grandfather sold that county in order to raise the money to go on Crusades.
  zh: 他的祖父卖掉了那个伯爵领，为的是筹集资金参加十字军东征。
- start: 2412.659
  end: 2420.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: He pretty much permanently alienated it from the family, which is something that medieval nobles didn't like to do, but he did it in order to get the money to go on.
  zh: 他实际上永久地让家族失去了这块领地，这是中世纪贵族不愿意做的事，但他为了筹集资金继续前进而这样做了。
- start: 2420.501
  end: 2421.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It was a second part of the first part.
  zh: 这是第一部分的第二部分。
- start: 2421.941
  end: 2426.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: You know, Aristotle teaches that property is really an extension of the self.
  zh: 你知道，亚里士多德教导说财产实际上是自我的延伸。
- start: 2426.522
  end: 2431.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: To divest yourself of your property—that's an enormous depletion.
  zh: 剥离自己的财产——这是一种巨大的损失。
- start: 2431.164
  end: 2433.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yes, and they did it habitually and commonly.
  zh: 是的，他们经常这样做，这很普遍。
- start: 2433.324
  end: 2435.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: You had to do that to go on Crusade, and everybody knew it.
  zh: 你必须这样做才能参加十字军东征，每个人都知道这一点。
- start: 2435.705
  end: 2443.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: So when we commit this blackguardism about our ancestors, that's a kind of historical libel.
  zh: 所以当我们诽谤我们的祖先时，这是一种历史诽谤。
- start: 2443.912
  end: 2446.735
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: We slander the dead; we dishonor them.
  zh: 我们诽谤死者；我们不尊重他们。
- start: 2446.735
  end: 2457.396
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: We don't take seriously the motives that they pretty plainly set out for anybody who is serious about being able to practice his or her faith freely and openly.
  zh: 我们没有认真对待他们明确表达的动机，这些动机是为了让任何认真想要自由公开实践信仰的人能够这样做。
- start: 2457.396
  end: 2466.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: To the extent that you want to be able to do it, for anyone who has that orientation, to be negative about the Crusades is an act of ingratitude, I'm afraid.
  zh: 我担心，对于任何有这种倾向的人来说，如果你想要能够这样做，对十字军东征持否定态度就是一种忘恩负义的行为。
- start: 2466.282
  end: 2469.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's our family history.
  zh: 这是我们的家族历史。
- start: 2469.924
  end: 2471.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It is our family history.
  zh: 这确实是我们的家族历史。
- start: 2471.045
  end: 2476.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It's part of our lineage; it's part of our understanding, whether or not we have direct descendants who were in the Crusades or not.
  zh: 这是我们血统的一部分；是我们理解的一部分，无论我们是否有参加过十字军东征的直系后裔。
- start: 2476.548
  end: 2478.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: It's part of our corporate history.
  zh: 这是我们共同历史的一部分。
- start: 2479.55
  end: 2483.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: And we need to understand that, and we need to make sure we defend against fact from fiction.
  zh: 我们需要理解这一点，我们需要确保我们能区分事实与虚构。
- start: 2484.232
  end: 2487.874
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: But you've alluded a little to this, and we've talked about how this broke down.
  zh: 但你已经暗示了一点这个问题，我们也讨论了这是如何崩溃的。
- start: 2487.874
  end: 2496.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: We have this clear understanding of what should be understood, but historians haven't approached it, and popularists haven't approached it with the humility you called for.
  zh: 我们对应该理解的内容有清晰的认识，但历史学家没有以这种方式接近它，通俗作家也没有以你所呼吁的谦逊态度接近它。
- start: 2496.739
  end: 2501.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: That's probably where it started breaking down in our current understanding.
  zh: 这可能就是我们当前理解开始崩溃的地方。
- start: 2501.242
  end: 2504.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: The cultural understanding today was really broken down.
  zh: 今天的文化理解确实已经崩溃了。
- start: 2504.324
  end: 2505.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Is that an accurate way to say that?
  zh: 这样说准确吗？
- start: 2505.765
  end: 2515.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Whether it be from the Reformation or other popular works, where did this idea—this true understanding, historically accurate understanding—really start breaking down?
  zh: 无论是从宗教改革还是其他流行作品，这种观念——这种真实的理解，历史准确的理解——究竟是从何时开始崩溃的？
- start: 2515.515
  end: 2517.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: When did that fall apart, really?
  zh: 这究竟是什么时候开始瓦解的？
- start: 2517.496
  end: 2521.698
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, as Scott mentioned earlier, the Reformation is a significant moment when it breaks down.
  zh: 嗯，正如斯科特早先提到的，宗教改革是一个重要的转折点。
- start: 2521.698
  end: 2526.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Luther, I think at one point, said—or is said to have said—he'd rather have the Turk than the Pope.
  zh: 我想路德在某个时候说过——或据说说过——他宁愿要土耳其人也不要教宗。
- start: 2527.159
  end: 2531.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I'm not sure he meant it, but he said some extreme things, which some Byzantines said too.
  zh: 我不确定他是这个意思，但他确实说过一些极端的话，一些拜占庭人也说过类似的话。
- start: 2531.721
  end: 2533.802
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: And Byzantines also said it sometimes, yes.
  zh: 是的，拜占庭人有时也这么说。
- start: 2533.802
  end: 2542.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So it's partly from the Reformation, partly from the part of some—not all—Byzantines' distaste for the Pope.
  zh: 所以这部分来自宗教改革，部分来自一些——不是全部——拜占庭人对教宗的反感。
- start: 2542.861
  end: 2551.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It comes from the Enlightenment; certainly, Voltaire told a lot of lies, I'm afraid, about the Crusades and about other aspects of Christianity.
  zh: 这来自启蒙运动；我担心伏尔泰确实对十字军东征和基督教的其他方面说了很多谎言。
- start: 2551.806
  end: 2554.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: What time frame is that?
  zh: 那是什么时间段？
- start: 2554.807
  end: 2555.848
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: This is the 18th century.
  zh: 这是18世纪。
- start: 2555.848
  end: 2561.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Voltaire is in the earlier 18th century, and he preferred Islam as a government religion to Christianity.
  zh: 伏尔泰是在18世纪早期，他更倾向于伊斯兰教而不是基督教作为政府宗教。
- start: 2561.071
  end: 2562.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: He was quite clear about it.
  zh: 他对此非常明确。
- start: 2562.401
  end: 2564.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But you also get it at the end of the 19th century.
  zh: 但在19世纪末你也能看到这种情况。
- start: 2564.805
  end: 2572.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: In the 19th century, there were Europeans who were pro-imperialism, and they tended to glorify the Crusades, seeing them as imperialistic activities.
  zh: 在19世纪，有些欧洲人支持帝国主义，他们倾向于美化十字军东征，把它们视为帝国主义活动。
- start: 2572.858
  end: 2577.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: They were wrong; they weren't imperialistic, but they were positive about them because of their misunderstanding.
  zh: 他们是错的；十字军东征不是帝国主义的，但他们因为误解而对它持积极态度。
- start: 2577.685
  end: 2583.607
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Any European who was anti-imperialistic was negative about the Crusades, again from a mistaken idea.
  zh: 任何反帝国主义的欧洲人都对十字军东征持否定态度，这又是一个错误的想法。
- start: 2584.027
  end: 2594.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: And then when you get Marxism and people like Lenin, who were so anti-imperialistic, they looked at the 19th century's understanding of crusading as imperialistic and rejected it.
  zh: 然后当你看到马克思主义和列宁这样极度反帝国主义的人，他们看到19世纪对十字军东征的帝国主义理解就拒绝它。
- start: 2594.271
  end: 2597.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But it's, again, from a misunderstanding of what crusading is about.
  zh: 但这又一次源于对十字军东征本质的误解。
- start: 2597.112
  end: 2598.752
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's never imperialistic.
  zh: 它从来就不是帝国主义的。
- start: 2598.873
  end: 2603.474
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: The figure of Voltaire I think is fascinating because he represents a kind of symbol.
  zh: 我认为伏尔泰这个人物很有趣，因为他代表了一种象征。
- start: 2603.474
  end: 2608.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Yes, he's a cynic—really very much so.
  zh: 是的，他是个愤世嫉俗者——确实非常愤世嫉俗。
- start: 2608.496
  end: 2620.802
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: I mean, it's the confiscation of the spiritual riches of Christianity by men who no longer believe in Christianity, so they feed off what they regard as a corpse.
  zh: 我的意思是，这是那些不再相信基督教的人对基督教精神财富的侵占，所以他们以他们认为是尸体的东西为食。
- start: 2620.802
  end: 2624.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And yet it's life-giving, and I resent that.
  zh: 然而它是赋予生命的，我对此感到愤慨。
- start: 2625.465
  end: 2636.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Somebody needs to go back and exhume Voltaire and try him for these crimes and recognize what an emblematic figure he is because his name is now legion.
  zh: 需要有人回过头来发掘伏尔泰，为这些罪行审判他，认识到他是一个多么具有象征性的人物，因为他的名字现在已经成为众多。
- start: 2636.369
  end: 2646.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: There are so many intellectual parasites who advance their own agendas based upon the capital—the little individual capital—on the left of the prison.
  zh: 有太多知识分子寄生虫在监狱左边的资本——那些小型个人资本——的基础上推进他们自己的议程。
- start: 2646.545
  end: 2651.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I want to also mention that, you know, we had the luxury of having a lunch out at Bob Evans.
  zh: 我还想提到，你知道，我们有幸在鲍勃·埃文斯餐厅共进午餐。
- start: 2651.092
  end: 2652.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Yes, a very pleasant one.
  zh: 是的，非常愉快的一顿。
- start: 2652.594
  end: 2655.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Yeah, and I look forward to more of those.
  zh: 是的，我期待更多这样的机会。
- start: 2655.318
  end: 2670.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: 'But you pointed out to me back then the works of, you know, and more recently, The Crusades: Christianity and Islam, a British historian, as well as an American historian, Thomas F. Madden, as well as the works of Dr. Paul Crawford.'
  zh: 但你当时向我指出了那些著作，你知道，最近的《十字军东征：基督教与伊斯兰教》，一位英国历史学家，还有美国历史学家托马斯·F·马登，以及保罗·克劳福德博士的著作。
- start: 2671.728
  end: 2675.19
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: These sorts of things are accessible; they're understandable.
  zh: 这些著作都是可以接触到的；它们是可以理解的。
- start: 2675.19
  end: 2685.735
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: There are scholars who write a lot of scholarly articles that you have to be an academic to really appreciate, but they're also breaking it down so that ordinary people who are highly motivated can get this and give it to other people as well.
  zh: 有些学者写了很多学术文章，你必须是学者才能真正欣赏，但他们也在简化内容，这样有强烈动力的普通人也能理解并传达给其他人。
- start: 2685.855
  end: 2691.817
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: When I became a Catholic, you know, Mary, the Pope, purgatory, the saints—all of the usual issues, suspects, you know?
  zh: 当我成为天主教徒时，你知道，马利亚、教宗、炼狱、圣人——所有这些常见的问题，你知道的吧？
- start: 2691.897
  end: 2698.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: 'But I mean, the Crusades—that''s the one thing that Protestants and Catholics agreed on: these were reprehensible, horrible things.'
  zh: 但我的意思是，十字军东征——这是新教徒和天主教徒都同意的一件事：这些都是应该谴责的、可怕的事情。
- start: 2698.339
  end: 2701.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You know, this is like a citadel off in the distance, you know, ruins.
  zh: 你知道，这就像远处的一座城堡，你知道，废墟。
- start: 2701.719
  end: 2703.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You know, I don't even need to go there.
  zh: 你知道，我甚至不需要去那里。
- start: 2703.8
  end: 2708.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And when I went there, I'm like, Oh my goodness, yet one more has to fall.
  zh: 当我去到那里时，我想，天啊，又一个观念要被推翻了。
- start: 2708.021
  end: 2709.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  zh: 是的，是的，是的。
- start: 2709.741
  end: 2711.781
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Too many put those up as obstacles.
  zh: 太多人把这些当作障碍。
- start: 2711.781
  end: 2713.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: What's the impact of this, do you think?
  zh: 你认为这会有什么影响？
- start: 2713.902
  end: 2721.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I mean, this is taking you maybe out of your expertise, but looking forward today at our appreciation—we have presidents who are quoting some inaccurate things.
  zh: 我的意思是，这可能超出了你的专业范围，但看看今天我们的认识——我们有总统在引用一些不准确的东西。
- start: 2721.123
  end: 2725.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: What does that really mean in our relations and our understanding going forward?
  zh: 这对我们未来的关系和理解真正意味着什么？
- start: 2725.664
  end: 2732.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You know, I mean, there seems to be so much with our understanding of Islam, so much with the turmoil in the Middle East.
  zh: 你知道，我是说，在我们对伊斯兰的理解上，在中东的动荡上，似乎有太多问题。
- start: 2732.765
  end: 2737.235
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I mean, I think there's just so much there that this really influences us.
  zh: 我的意思是，我认为这里有太多东西真正影响着我们。
- start: 2737.235
  end: 2742.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I think it has to do with our ability and willingness to defend ourselves and to defend our faith.
  zh: 我认为这与我们保护自己和捍卫信仰的能力和意愿有关。
- start: 2742.918
  end: 2751.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: If we don't rediscover that, those who are not willing to defend themselves and their faith and their way of life are going to be run over by people who believe more strongly than they do.
  zh: 如果我们不重新发现这一点，那些不愿意保护自己、捍卫信仰和生活方式的人，将会被那些信仰更坚定的人所压倒。
- start: 2751.402
  end: 2755.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Islamic world, to do them credit, is generally not deficient in that respect.
  zh: 公平地说，伊斯兰世界在这方面通常并不缺乏。
- start: 2755.624
  end: 2761.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: But the crucial piece in the puzzle is that you're willing to defend what you regard as defensible.
  zh: 但这个谜题中的关键部分是你愿意捍卫你认为值得捍卫的东西。
- start: 2761.827
  end: 2765.789
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: More and more people don't see Christianity as defensible.
  zh: 越来越多的人认为基督教是不值得捍卫的。
- start: 2766.03
  end: 2772.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: You're also willing to desire that which we don't have, and that is the modicum of a Christian social order.
  zh: 你也愿意渴望我们所没有的，那就是基督教社会秩序的一点点。
- start: 2772.516
  end: 2786.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I mean, it's one of those things where even solid Christians I know don't desire a Christian social order; they want simply the right to kind of privatize it for themselves—okay, my family and my parish—but you know, just give us a sort of Indian reservation, as it were.
  zh: 我的意思是，这是那种即使我认识的坚定的基督徒也不渴望基督教社会秩序的事情之一；他们只是想要将其私有化的权利——好吧，我的家庭和我的教区——但你知道，就像给我们一个印第安保留地那样。
- start: 2786.703
  end: 2793.751
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: It seems to me that something much greater is needed, and that is the social vision that our faith is inherently corporate.
  zh: 在我看来，需要的是更伟大的东西，那就是我们的信仰本质上是团体性的这种社会愿景。
- start: 2793.751
  end: 2795.392
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: It's public—public and corporate.
  zh: 它是公共的——公共的和团体的。
- start: 2795.392
  end: 2797.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Yeah, I think of Jeremiah the prophet.
  zh: 是的，我想到了先知耶利米。
- start: 2797.174
  end: 2810.607
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: One Old Testament scholar said that what bothered Jeremiah so much was not that his fellow Jews were in exile, but that they didn't know it—that they were so Babylonianized that they weren't even aware that there was a city, Jerusalem, and a temple in ruins.
  zh: 一位旧约学者说，最困扰耶利米的不是他的犹太同胞被流放，而是他们不知道自己被流放了——他们如此巴比伦化，甚至不知道还有一座城市，耶路撒冷，和一座倒塌的圣殿。
- start: 2810.607
  end: 2817.993
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Yes, and this is a problem with the demi-status over centuries that can crush communities into a sort of Stockholm syndrome.
  zh: 是的，这是几个世纪以来半奴役地位的问题，它可以将社群压垮成一种斯德哥尔摩综合症。
- start: 2817.993
  end: 2824.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So they were always oppressed, and they felt comfortable—or at least were uncomfortable—objecting to it.
  zh: 所以他们一直被压迫，他们感到习惯——或者至少是不敢——反对这种压迫。
- start: 2824.178
  end: 2826.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I think that's true for many demi-communities today.
  zh: 我认为这对今天许多半边缘化群体来说都是真实的。
- start: 2826.04
  end: 2835.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: They don't dare object to it and have learned not to dare, and they don't want people coming in to object to it either because that's going to make it really bad for us.
  zh: 他们不敢反对，也学会了不要反抗，他们也不希望其他人来反对，因为那会让我们的处境更糟。
- start: 2835.307
  end: 2838.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Stay with us for the last segment on Franciscan University Presents.
  zh: 请继续收看方济各大学呈现的最后一个环节。
- start: 2839.298
  end: 2844.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_04
  en: My name is Joseph Grelitsch; I'm a chemistry major and biology minor here at Franciscan University.
  zh: 我叫约瑟·格雷利奇；我在方济各大学主修化学，辅修生物。
- start: 2844.762
  end: 2848.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_04
  en: I love the atmosphere; it's completely centered around the Catholic faith.
  zh: 我喜欢这里的氛围；它完全以公教会信仰为中心。
- start: 2848.244
  end: 2853.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_04
  en: When I play soccer and I'm in classes, everything has that same Catholic attitude.
  zh: 当我踢足球和上课时，一切都带有相同的公教会精神。
- start: 2853.167
  end: 2859.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_04
  en: Myself and a few other chemistry majors have the opportunity to work with top scientists in order to combat neglected diseases.
  zh: 我和其他几个化学专业的学生有机会与顶尖科学家合作，以对抗被忽视的疾病。
- start: 2859.552
  end: 2865.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_04
  en: I was able to connect my love for chemistry and also my love for mission work by synthesizing chemical compounds.
  zh: 我能够通过合成化合物将我对化学的热爱和对传教工作的热爱结合起来。
- start: 2865.536
  end: 2869.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_04
  en: Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
  zh: 方济各大学在学术上追求卓越，在信仰上热忱践行公教会信仰。
- start: 2869.398
  end: 2877.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Study online, on campus, or both in graduate programs for working adults at Franciscan University of Steubenville.
  zh: 在斯图本维尔方济各大学为在职成人提供的研究生课程中，可以选择在线学习、校园学习或两者结合。
- start: 2877.661
  end: 2886.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Advance your career with the ethical approach to management you'll find in our MBA. Bring online learning to life through our Master's in Education.
  zh: 通过我们MBA课程中的道德管理方法推进你的职业发展。通过我们的教育硕士课程让在线学习变得生动。
- start: 2886.224
  end: 2890.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Prepare for advanced practice nursing with our Master's in Nursing.
  zh: 通过我们的护理硕士课程为高级护理实践做准备。
- start: 2890.406
  end: 2892.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Check franciscan.edu
  zh: 访问franciscan.edu
- start: 2892.886
  end: 2910.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: or call 800-783-6220. Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
  zh: 或致电800-783-6220。欢迎回到方济各大学呈现。
- start: 2910.253
  end: 2915.276
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: We've been talking to Dr. Paul Crawford, professor and author, about the Crusades.
  zh: 我们一直在与教授兼作家保罗·克劳福德博士讨论十字军东征。
- start: 2915.416
  end: 2916.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: This is our final segment.
  zh: 这是我们的最后一个环节。
- start: 2916.597
  end: 2919.138
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Regis, could you start off our kind of summations?
  zh: 雷吉斯，你能开始我们的总结吗？
- start: 2919.138
  end: 2931.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Oh gosh, there are a great many things that I'd like to say, and not the least of them is a gesture of gratitude and thanksgiving to you for having come.
  zh: 哦天啊，我有很多话想说，其中最重要的就是要对你的到来表示感激和感谢。
- start: 2931.505
  end: 2936.009
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: You exhibit a learned enthusiasm which I find infectious.
  zh: 你展现出一种博学的热情，我发现这种热情很有感染力。
- start: 2936.009
  end: 2938.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: I'd love to have been one of your students.
  zh: 我真希望能成为你的学生之一。
- start: 2938.093
  end: 2943.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Of course, I'd be much older than you, but I would find your material highly contagious.
  zh: 当然，我会比你年长得多，但我会发现你的材料非常有感染力。
- start: 2944.373
  end: 2962.424
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: I'm struck by that word gratitude because in the break before this final session, you mentioned—and it's haunted me—this image of going home to God and being sort of accosted by your ancestors who want to know, What did you do to advance the cause of Christendom?
  zh: 我被「感激」这个词打动了，因为在这最后一节课前的休息时间，你提到——这让我难以忘怀——回到神身边时被祖先质问的画面，他们想知道，你为推进基督教世界的事业做了什么？
- start: 2962.424
  end: 2966.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And if your hands are empty, maybe you didn't do anything.
  zh: 如果你两手空空，也许你什么都没做。
- start: 2966.947
  end: 2978.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: But at least in the classroom, you can give witness to the truth, and the truth, in the end, I think will vindicate you before the councils of eternal judgment.
  zh: 但至少在课堂上，你可以为真理作证，我想最终真理会在永恒审判的法庭前为你辩护。
- start: 2979.67
  end: 2990.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: 'Another point: Chesterton speaks of the democracy of the dead, that we ought to give votes to the most obscure of all classes—our ancestors.'
  zh: 另一点：切斯特顿谈到死者的民主，我们应该给予所有阶层中最默默无闻的人——我们的祖先——投票权。
- start: 2990.519
  end: 2995.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Our ancestors in the faith—we owe them something, some deference.
  zh: 我们信仰中的祖先——我们欠他们一些东西，一些尊重。
- start: 2995.344
  end: 3004.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: And I think by telling the truth about what they did, that I think is the tribute we pay to their memory, and we keep it alive.
  zh: 我认为通过讲述他们所做事情的真相，这就是我们对他们记忆的致敬，我们让这记忆保持活力。
- start: 3005.004
  end: 3016.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: One particular memory I have, which came to mind in the course of preparing for this show, was something my great friend and mentor, Fritz Wilhelmsen, did.
  zh: 在准备这个节目的过程中，我想起了一个特别的记忆，是关于我的好朋友和导师弗里茨·威廉森所做的事。
- start: 3016.558
  end: 3027.083
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: He was an assistant professor at the University of Santa Clara in California in the mid-1950s when the Budapest Uprising took place.
  zh: 在1950年代中期布达佩斯起义发生时，他是加利福尼亚圣克拉拉大学的助理教授。
- start: 3027.083
  end: 3040.568
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: He spoke to the student body and galvanized about 1,400 of them to sign on as crusaders to go to Hungary to help their brothers lift this yoke of Soviet tyranny.
  zh: 他向学生团体发表演讲，激励约1400名学生签名成为十字军战士，前往匈牙利帮助他们的兄弟摆脱苏维埃暴政的枷锁。
- start: 3040.598
  end: 3042.9
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Of course, he was refused by the State Department.
  zh: 当然，他被国务院拒绝了。
- start: 3042.9
  end: 3048.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: We don't need you, and the Eisenhower administration wasn't going to do a damn thing to help Hungary.
  zh: 他们不需要你们，艾森豪威尔政府也不会为帮助匈牙利做任何事情。
- start: 3048.984
  end: 3053.368
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: But for Fritz, that was a kind of flashpoint.
  zh: 但对弗里茨来说，那是一个转折点。
- start: 3053.368
  end: 3065.016
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: It indicated that America was not really interested in liberating these captive peoples, and that's very different from the attitude that motivated our Christian forebears.
  zh: 这表明美国对解放这些被奴役的人民并不真正感兴趣，这与激励我们基督教先辈的态度很不同。
- start: 3065.016
  end: 3080.163
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: They were determined to do something, and by God, they succeeded in some modest yet measurable way to make life more hospitable to Christians in the places where, after all, their faith had been founded.
  zh: 他们决心要做些什么，靠着神，他们以一种谦逊但可衡量的方式取得了成功，使基督徒在他们信仰建立的地方过上更好的生活。
- start: 3080.804
  end: 3081.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Thank you, Regis.
  zh: 谢谢你，雷吉斯。
- start: 3081.984
  end: 3082.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Scott?
  zh: 斯科特？
- start: 3082.605
  end: 3091.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I'm reminded of the homilist who gets up to give a homily on ignorance and apathy, and he says the two biggest problems in the parish are what?
  zh: 这让我想起一个讲道者站起来讲道，谈论无知和冷漠，他说教区最大的两个问题是什么？
- start: 3091.978
  end: 3096.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And the fellow in the front row leans over and says, I don't know, and I don't care.
  zh: 前排的那个人探过身来说，我不知道，我也不在乎。
- start: 3097.021
  end: 3099.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I would add a third one, and that is ingratitude.
  zh: 我要加上第三个，那就是忘恩负义。
- start: 3100.563
  end: 3102.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I do think the ingratitude is great.
  zh: 我确实认为忘恩负义是很严重的。
- start: 3102.704
  end: 3107.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: I hope and pray that the ignorance is far greater, and I suspect that it is.
  zh: 我希望并祈祷无知的程度更大，我怀疑确实如此。
- start: 3107.807
  end: 3117.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But debunking this myth, I think, has really become something big—not just for me, but for all people who are on the side of truth.
  zh: 但我认为揭穿这个误解已经成为一件大事——不仅对我来说，对所有站在真理一边的人来说都是如此。
- start: 3118.027
  end: 3122.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And not just historical truth, but contemporary circumstances.
  zh: 不仅是历史真相，还有当代的处境。
- start: 3122.148
  end: 3132.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Historical truth is important in itself to clarify the record and to get it right, and to go back and to recognize these are wars of defense, that these are just wars, these are justifiable wars.
  zh: 历史真相本身很重要，它能澄清记录，让我们认识到这些是防御性的战争，是正义的战争，是可以辩护的战争。
- start: 3132.69
  end: 3139.031
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Abuses were committed and all of that, but not quite like what we did at Dresden and other things too.
  zh: 确实有滥用行为，但并不像我们在德累斯顿和其他地方所做的那样。
- start: 3139.491
  end: 3141.612
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And yet we celebrate our veterans rightly.
  zh: 而且我们理所当然地纪念我们的退伍军人。
- start: 3141.612
  end: 3144.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: At the same time, we acknowledge some excesses.
  zh: 同时，我们也承认一些过分的行为。
- start: 3144.224
  end: 3154.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: But Samuel Huntington speaks of the bloody borders of Islam and how the vast majority of all of the major conflicts that still go on are in Islamic countries.
  zh: 但塞缪尔·亨廷顿谈到伊斯兰的血腥边界，以及如何绝大多数仍在进行的主要冲突都发生在伊斯兰国家。
- start: 3154.46
  end: 3160.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: And it's not a coincidence; it's a fact of history, and it's a moral reality that we have to face.
  zh: 这不是巧合；这是历史事实，是我们必须面对的道德现实。
- start: 3161.466
  end: 3166.85
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: When we do the historical work, I think we pull back the ivy, and we suddenly are looking at what is this?
  zh: 当我们做历史研究时，我认为我们拨开常春藤，突然看到这是什么？
- start: 3166.85
  end: 3178.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: It's the front door into a Christian Catholic way of understanding social order and Western history, and it's not coming too soon.
  zh: 这是理解社会秩序和西方历史的基督教公教会方式的大门，而且来得正是时候。
- start: 3178.433
  end: 3187.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: This rediscovery, I think, is going to reawaken in us a desire to go back and get history right, but also to get the present and the future right as well.
  zh: 我认为，这种重新发现将唤醒我们回去纠正历史的愿望，同时也要纠正现在和未来。
- start: 3188.117
  end: 3194.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: We need to recognize that there is a time and a place to fight, and there's a time and a place for gratitude as well.
  zh: 我们需要认识到有战斗的时机和场合，也有感恩的时机和场合。
- start: 3194.28
  end: 3198.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Your work—and I know Mike is going to mention this—is available on Faith and Reason.
  zh: 你的作品——我知道迈克要提到这个——在《信仰与理性》上可以找到。
- start: 3198.042
  end: 3201.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That article on the four myths is indispensable reading.
  zh: 那篇关于四个误解的文章是必读之作。
- start: 3201.864
  end: 3210.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: 'But what you''ve recommended in the works of Jonathan Riley-Smith, especially this book The Crusades: Christianity and Islam, I gave it to my 19-year-old, and he devoured it.'
  zh: 但你推荐的乔纳森·莱利-史密斯的作品，特别是《十字军东征：基督教与伊斯兰教》这本书，我给了我19岁的孩子，他如饥似渴地读完了。
- start: 3211.09
  end: 3213.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: My kids are all reading it, so thank you.
  zh: 我的孩子们都在读它，所以谢谢你。
- start: 3213.631
  end: 3216.492
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Keep up the great work, and let's just share the load.
  zh: 继续做这项伟大的工作，让我们一起分担这个责任。
- start: 3216.713
  end: 3218.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Thank you, Scott.
  zh: 谢谢你，斯科特。
- start: 3218.174
  end: 3218.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Paul?
  zh: 保罗？
- start: 3219.414
  end: 3223.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Well, I think that we've covered most of the major points already.
  zh: 嗯，我想我们已经涵盖了大部分主要观点。
- start: 3223.136
  end: 3226.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's important to think of the Crusades as defensive activities.
  zh: 重要的是要把十字军东征视为防御性活动。
- start: 3226.937
  end: 3229.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: They are not offensive; they were never supposed to be offensive.
  zh: 它们不是进攻性的；它们从来就不应该是进攻性的。
- start: 3229.338
  end: 3231.619
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: They were never supposed to be about conversion.
  zh: 它们从来就不是为了改变信仰。
- start: 3232.419
  end: 3236.461
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: They were the first great Western counterattack against Islam.
  zh: 它们是西方对伊斯兰的第一次大规模反击。
- start: 3236.461
  end: 3245.543
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: They weren't the first counterattack against Islam; as we mentioned earlier in the show, the Byzantines had fought back, the Italians had fought back, the Spanish had fought back.
  zh: 它们不是对伊斯兰的第一次反击，正如我们在节目前面提到的，拜占庭人反击过，意大利人反击过，西班牙人也反击过。
- start: 3245.863
  end: 3256.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But these were the first great Western counterattacks against Islamic aggression and the first one that was centrally directed by the Pope.
  zh: 但这些是西方对伊斯兰侵略的第一次大规模反击，也是第一次由教宗集中指挥的反击。
- start: 3256.945
  end: 3272.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: For anyone who believes that human beings of whatever faith or ethnic background or whatever have a right to defend themselves against aggression—if that's what you believe, and most people do when pressed—then I don't see how you can condemn the principle of the Crusades.
  zh: 对于任何相信人类无论什么信仰或种族背景都有权利对抗侵略的人来说——如果这是你的信念，而且大多数人在被逼问时都是这样认为的——那么我不明白你怎么能谴责十字军东征的原则。
- start: 3272.479
  end: 3286.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: You can condemn this or that thing that happened in the course of them, but you can't condemn the principle because they were an act of self-defense and an act of love, as we've also said, on behalf of the Crusaders for those that they were trying to defend.
  zh: 你可以谴责在其过程中发生的这样或那样的事情，但你不能谴责其原则，因为它们是自卫行为，也是爱的行为，就像我们说过的，十字军是代表他们试图保护的人。
- start: 3287.148
  end: 3296.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Crusades—we mentioned something earlier in the show that we didn't get time to follow up on—there was really only one truly successful Crusade, and that was the first one.
  zh: 十字军东征——我们在节目前面提到了一些没来得及跟进的内容——实际上只有一次真正成功的十字军东征，那就是第一次。
- start: 3296.162
  end: 3300.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: The Third Crusade was also partially successful; the rest of them are pretty much failures.
  zh: 第三次十字军东征也部分成功了；其余的基本上都是失败的。
- start: 3301.064
  end: 3317.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: As a venture considered as a whole, given its own aims of recovering the Holy Land and protecting Eastern Christians, the Crusades really have to be considered a failure because, in the end, Catholic Christians lost the Holy Land and were driven out of the territories that they had tried to defend.
  zh: 作为一个整体来看，考虑到收复圣地和保护东方基督徒的目标，十字军东征确实必须被视为失败，因为最终，公教会基督徒失去了圣地，被驱逐出他们试图保卫的领土。
- start: 3318.012
  end: 3331.275
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: But they also need to be considered a success in the sense that by creating a counterattack, by driving Islam back for a little while, they managed to buy Western Europe—Christian Catholic Europe—time to grow up.
  zh: 但从另一个角度来说，它们也应该被视为成功，因为通过发起反击，暂时击退伊斯兰，他们为西欧——基督教公教会的欧洲——赢得了成长的时间。
- start: 3331.335
  end: 3341.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So that by the time the Crusades had pretty definitively failed by the 15th century, Western Europe was strong enough to defend itself and to preserve its own Christian way of life.
  zh: 所以到15世纪十字军东征彻底失败时，西欧已经强大到足以自卫并保持自己的基督教生活方式。
- start: 3341.897
  end: 3347.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Temporary success, but they did give Western Europe time to survive.
  zh: 虽然是暂时的成功，但它们确实给了西欧生存的时间。
- start: 3348.096
  end: 3353.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: And I think, Regis, you brought up something that is very important that we were talking about during the break.
  zh: 而且我想，雷吉斯，你提出了我们在休息时讨论的一个非常重要的事情。
- start: 3354.202
  end: 3359.266
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: As modern people, we need to look back at our ancestors and look at what they did.
  zh: 作为现代人，我们需要回顾我们的祖先，看看他们做了什么。
- start: 3359.266
  end: 3365.451
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Look at the fact that they gave up their careers, their treasure, and in very many cases, their lives.
  zh: 看看这个事实，他们放弃了他们的事业、他们的财富，在很多情况下，还有他们的生命。
- start: 3366.673
  end: 3370.956
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: We need to recognize that as Catholic Christians, we believe that we will meet these people someday.
  zh: 我们需要认识到，作为公教会基督徒，我们相信有一天我们会见到这些人。
- start: 3370.956
  end: 3378.545
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: Very many of these people died for their faith, which makes them automatically martyrs, which makes them saints, if I understand my theology correctly.
  zh: 很多这些人为信仰而死，这自动使他们成为殉道者，如果我对神学理解正确的话，这使他们成为圣人。
- start: 3379.306
  end: 3388.394
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: So if we are fortunate enough to get to heaven ourselves, we will meet them someday, and they will tell us what they did and ask us what we have done in their defense.
  zh: 所以如果我们有幸能上天堂，我们有一天会见到他们，他们会告诉我们他们做了什么，并问我们为捍卫他们做了什么。
- start: 3389.035
  end: 3392.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I hope that we all have a good answer to give to that question.
  zh: 我希望我们都能对这个问题给出一个好的答案。
- start: 3393.118
  end: 3394.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 3394.719
  end: 3396.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: We've been talking to Dr. Paul Crawford.
  zh: 我们一直在与保罗·克劳福德博士交谈。
- start: 3396.881
  end: 3402.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: If you've been interested in the subject that we've been discussing today, the Crusades, you need to go to faithandreason.com
  zh: 如果你对我们今天讨论的主题——十字军东征感兴趣，你需要访问faithandreason.com
- start: 3402.526
  end: 3403.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: or just ask us.
  zh: 或者直接问我们。
- start: 3403.887
  end: 3408.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: The four myths of the Crusade are available to download, or we'll send them to you.
  zh: 关于十字军东征的四个误解可以下载，或者我们会发送给你。
- start: 3409.39
  end: 3413.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: I want to invite you to be a part of Franciscan University's mission.
  zh: 我想邀请你成为方济各大学使命的一部分。
- start: 3413.353
  end: 3418.976
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Our mission is to transform the world through the students and the people that we educate and form.
  zh: 我们的使命是通过我们教育和培养的学生和人们来改变世界。
- start: 3419.196
  end: 3433.227
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Come and be a part of this education and this life here on our campus by going for a degree or going online in our distance education, or join us at one of our summer conferences or pilgrimages to holy shrines like the Holy Land.
  zh: 来我们的校园获取学位或参加我们的远程教育，或者参加我们的暑期会议或前往圣地朝圣，成为这种教育和生活的一部分。
- start: 3433.688
  end: 3435.65
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Or go to faithandreason.com
  zh: 或者访问信仰与理性网站（faithandreason.com）
- start: 3435.65
  end: 3439.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: and be equipped with all the tools you need to be a part of the New Evangelization.
  zh: 获得你参与新福传所需的所有工具。
- start: 3439.974
  end: 3442.957
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: And until next time, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
  zh: 愿主保佑你，直到下次再见。
- start: 3448.052
  end: 3452.993
  speaker: SPEAKER_05
  en: To download the free handout on today's topic, go to faithandreason.com.
  zh: 要下载今天主题的免费讲义，请访问信仰与理性网站（faithandreason.com）。
- start: 3453.033
  end: 3458.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_05
  en: Email your request for the handout to present at franciscan.edu
  zh: 发送电子邮件至present@franciscan.edu请求获取讲义。
- start: 3458.474
  end: 3459.774
  speaker: SPEAKER_05
  en: at faithandreason.com.
  zh: 在信仰与理性网站（faithandreason.com）。
- start: 3459.774
  end: 3476.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_05
  en: You can also purchase past episodes of Franciscan University Presents or request today's free handout and purchase past programs by calling 888-333-0381. That's 888-333-0381, or call 740-283-6357.
  zh: 你也可以通过拨打888-333-0381购买方济各大学呈现的往期节目或请求今天的免费讲义和购买往期节目。号码是888-333-0381，或者拨打740-283-6357。
