中世纪十字军东征的历史真相与现代流传的神话传说有何不同？ How does the historical truth of the medieval Crusades compare to the modern myths and legends that surround them?
今天我们邀请到宾夕法尼亚州加利福尼亚大学中世纪 历史教授保罗·克劳福德博士，一起探讨这个问题。 Join us today as we discuss that question with our guest, Dr. Paul Crawford, Professor of Medieval History at California University of Pennsylvania.
我是迈克尔·赫农，俄亥俄州斯图本维尔方济各大 学发展部副校长，您正在收看方济各大学呈现。 I'm Michael Hernon, Vice President of Advancement at Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio, and you're watching Franciscan University Presents.
请继续收看！ Stay with us!
欢迎收看方济各大学呈现。 Welcome to Franciscan University Presents.
今天，我们将讨论十字军东征。 Today, we'll be talking about the Crusades.
我是您的主持人迈克尔·赫农，方济各大学发展部副校长。今天在演播室 里还有我们的常驻嘉宾，方济各大学系统神学教授雷吉斯·马丁博士，以 及担任迈克尔·斯坎伦圣经神学与新福传讲座教授的斯科特·哈恩博士。 I'm your host, Michael Hernon, Vice President of Advancement here at Franciscan University, joined here in our studios with our regular panelists, Dr. Regis Martin, Professor of Systematic Theology here at Franciscan University, and Dr. Scott Hahn, who holds the Father Michael Scanlon Chair in Biblical Theology and the New Evangelization.
我们的特邀嘉宾是保罗·克劳福德博士。 Our special guest is Dr. Paul Crawford.
您在秘鲁州立大学获得学士学位，在威斯康星大学获得硕士和中世纪 历史博士学位，目前在宾夕法尼亚州加利福尼亚大学担任历史教授。 You have an undergraduate degree from Peru State University, an MA, and a PhD in Medieval History from the University of Wisconsin, and you're currently a Professor of History at California University in Pennsylvania.
您专门研究十字军东征和军事修会组织，比如圣 殿骑士团等，并在这些领域发表了多部著作。 Your specialty is the Crusades and the military religious orders, such as the Knights Templar and others, and you have published a number of works on these subjects.
我们非常高兴您今天能来到节目中。 So, we're so glad you're with us here today.
很高兴来到这里。 It's a pleasure to be here.
好的，我们今天要谈十字军东征，这个话题涉及的内容很多。 All right, so we're talking about the Crusades, and there's a lot that goes with that.
但是让我们先从头开始。 But first, let's start.
当我们说十字军东征时，究竟指的是什么？ When we say the Crusades, what are we really referring to?
请给我们简单定义一下十字军东征。 Kind of just define Crusades for us.
嗯，我想大多数人谈到十字军东征时，指的是从11世纪1095年开始到13世 纪1270年结束的八次西欧到圣地的主要远征。但这并不是全部的十字军东征。 Well, I think what most people are talking about when they think about the Crusades are the eight major expeditions to the Holy Land from Western Europe, beginning in 1095 in the 11th century and running up through the end of the 13th century, to 1270. That's not the only set of expeditions that qualify as Crusades.
英国历史学家乔纳森·莱利-史密斯将十字军东征定义为基本上是 一次保卫基督教的远征，由教皇发起，并带有强烈的忏悔色彩。 The English historian Jonathan Riley-Smith has defined a crusade as basically an expedition in defense of Christianity, called by the Pope and with strong penitential overtones.
这包括了前往圣地、西班牙、波罗的海和法国南 部的远征——范围比我们通常想象的要广得多。 That covers expeditions to the Holy Land, to Spain, to the Baltic, to Southern France—so much wider than what we might commonly think.
确实范围要广得多，而且时间跨度也要长得多。 Very much wider, and the time frame was much larger, really.
十字军东征的时间跨度应该被认为是从11世纪一直延续到17世纪。 The time frame for the Crusades should be thought of as running from the 11th century into the 17th.
哇！ Wow!
我认为最后一次十字军东征大概是1683年解除维也纳之围的战役。 I would say that the last crusade probably was in 1683 with the relief of the Siege of Vienna.
那么，让我们从为什么发动十字军东征开始谈起。 So, let's start with why they were waged.
如果说它们具有忏悔的成分，显然也有教皇号召的军事干预。 If they had a penitential component to them, there was obviously a military intervention called for by the Pope.
我认为这些就是原因。 I think those were the reasons.
十字军东征为什么会发动？ Why were the Crusades waged?
另一位英国历史学家对此给出了一个很好的简短答案：十字军东征是 伊斯兰兴起的长期结果，因为它们是对伊斯兰入侵的防御性远征。 There's another English historian who has given a very nice, short, concise answer to that: the Crusades were the long-term result of the rise of Islam because they are defensive expeditions in response to Islamic invasion.
所以，这是对挑衅的一种回应。 So, a reaction to a provocation.
确实如此，但它们在历史上受到了非常不公平的评价。 Very much so, but they've been given a very bad historical wrap.
是的，很遗憾。 Yes, unfortunately.
这是为什么呢？ Why is that?
这其中有复杂的原因。 There are complex reasons for that.
我认为很大程度上源于西方的自我厌恶——对基督教西方所 代表的一切的否定，因此也否定了基督教西方自卫的权利。 A lot of it, I think, goes back to Western self-hatred, really—a rejection of what the Christian West stood for and therefore a rejection of the Christian West's right to defend itself.
也许你在威斯康星大学的一些教授也持这种观点。 Perhaps some of your professors at Wisconsin upheld that view.
不过我要说，宗教改革确实代表了一个重要的分水岭，这使情况变得更加复杂。 I would say that it's complicated, though, by the fact that the Reformation really represents a lot of demarcation.
因为在十六世纪宗教改革之前，基督徒们普遍认同这些行动在道德上、自 然法则上和圣经根据上都是完全合理的，正是因为这些都是防御性战争。 Because up until the Reformation in the 1500s, there really was a broad consensus among Christians that what was happening was entirely justifiable on moral grounds, through the natural law and on biblical grounds, precisely because they were defensive wars.
在某个时期，伊斯兰实际上已经占领了基督教世界的三分之二。 At one point, Islam had basically taken two-thirds of Christendom.
没错。 That's right.
虽然反应缓慢，但这是可以理解的行动。 It was a slow reaction, but it was an understandable action.
我认为路德因为这是教宗发起的，就针对这一点说这实际上是为了扩张教宗制度的暴政。 I think Luther, because the Pope called for it, targeted that and said that this was really to extend the tyranny of the papacy.
质疑就是从那时开始的。 That's when the questioning began.
当然，启蒙运动带来了更大的分裂。 And then, of course, the Enlightenment represents an even greater disruption.
是的，确实如此。 Yes, very much so.
所以今天，从宗教改革时期的路德，到启蒙运动， 一直到现代学者，都在散布诽谤和大量错误信息。 And so today, we've got from Luther in the Reformation, the Enlightenment, all the way through to modern scholars, really casting aspersions and settling a lot of misinformation.
你知道，如果我们把焦点放在1500年代中期这个关键时期， 或者说1400年代，基督教世界的主要教区都已被伊斯兰占领 ，包括耶路撒冷、亚历山大、安提阿，然后是君士坦丁堡。 But, you know, if you zero in on the middle of the 1500s as a kind of flashpoint, or maybe the 1400s, the great primatial sees of Christendom have all been co-opted by Islam, except for Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, and then Constantinople.
只有罗马还在坚持，你会认为团结在罗马周围的冲动几乎是不可抗拒的。 Only Rome stands, and you would think that the impulse to rally around Rome would be almost irresistible.
确实有这样的冲动，即使在宗教改革之后，这种冲动的回响仍然存在。 Well, there was an impulse to do that, and even after the Reformation, there was a kind of echo of that impulse.
1571年，勒班陀战役之后，威尼斯、教宗军队和西班牙联合舰队取 得胜利，当时已经是新教国家的英格兰也敲响教堂钟声庆祝这场胜利。 In 1571, after the Battle of Lepanto, which was won by an allied fleet of Venetians, papal forces, and Spanish forces, I think the church bells in England, then Protestant England, were rung in celebration after Lepanto.
但那时都是用西班牙语，而且当奥地利受到威胁时，连路德都改变了想法。 But then that was all in Spanish, and even Luther changed his mind when Austria was being threatened.
是的，在那个时候，已经不是罗马的问题，也不是教宗的问题了，威胁已经逼近。 Yes, at that point, it's no longer Rome, and it's not the Pope; it's getting closer.
在那场海战中，路德心目中的德意志奥地利反而成了天主教一方的捍卫者，对吧？ Good old German Austria was the great champion of Luther in that particular naval battle, the champion of the Catholic side, right?
为西方基督教世界赢得了安全。 Secured a Christendom for the West.
应该说在中世纪，有人反对十字军东征，并不是因为他们认为基督教世 界不该被保护，而是因为他们认为这是错误的方式——战术上的错误。 It should be said that during the Middle Ages, there were people who objected to the Crusades, not so much because they didn't think Christendom should be defended, but because they thought it was the wrong approach—a tactic.
是的，这是错误的战术。 Yeah, it was the wrong tactic.
比如，伟大的加泰罗尼亚思想家雷蒙·柳尔，时而支持十字军东征，时而主张传教活动。 The great Catalan thinker Ramon Llull, for example, wavered back and forth between arguing in favor of Crusades sometimes and in favor of mission activities at other times.
在他生命的最后，我想是81岁时，他亲自前往北 非做传教士，说这才是我们应对伊斯兰的方式。 In the end of his life, he was 81, I think, and he went himself to North Africa as a missionary, saying this is what we should do to combat Islam.
结果他被石头砸破了头骨。 What happened was he got his skull stabbed by stones.
当你想到道明会时，会发现一个有趣的相似之处。 There's an interesting parallel when you consider the Dominicans.
他们成立的目的正是为了赢回法国南部的阿尔比派教徒，但当这 些优秀的修士走进阿尔比派的村庄传教祈祷，以身作则和劝诫来 使他们回归罗马时，那场特定的十字军东征就戛然而止了。 They were founded in order precisely to win back the Albigensians in Southern France, but that particular Crusade came to a crashing halt when these wonderful friars walked into these Albigensian villages to preach and to pray and, by example and exhortation, win them back to Rome.
他们完全被忽视了。 They were simply ignored.
他们被忽视了，因此不得不使用武力。 They were ignored, and therefore force had to be used.
世俗力量不得不介入。 The secular arm had to step in.
阿尔比派十字军运动是一个很有趣的研究案例。 The Albigensian Crusade is an interesting case study for crusading.
教会因对阿尔比派和卡塔里派使用武力而受到批评，但实际 上，他们这样做是有教会法理由的，而且必须迅速行动。 The Church gets criticized for having used force against the Albigensians, against the Cathars, but in fact, there was a canonical reason why they needed to do it and do it quickly.
根据当时的教会法，我想现在也是如此，如果你不 是那个引发错误信仰的人，就不会被视为异端。 According to canon law, at least at the time, and I think now still, you're not considered a heretic if you are not the person who instigated the defective beliefs.
那一代引发这些信仰的人即将去世，所以如果教 会不迅速采取行动，就会陷入无能为力的境地。 The people who had instigated those beliefs that generation was about to die off, so the Church was about to be in a position where it couldn't do anything about it if it didn't act quickly.
你刚才提到的一点我想重新讨论一下，因为即使是同情十字军运动目 标的基督徒，也会质疑其战略价值，甚至从道德角度来看也是如此。 You just made a point that I want to go back to for a moment because there is a sense in which Christians who are sympathetic to the goals of the Crusades nevertheless can call into question the strategic value, you know, even presenting from the morality.
因为在准备这个节目时，最让我震惊的是十字军运动的理由是如此清晰和有力。 Because I think that what shocked me the most in preparing for this show was just how clear and strong the case for the Crusades is.
但从实际的审慎角度来看，只有十一世纪的第一次十字军运动取得了有限的成功。 But practically, from a prudential standpoint, only the first Crusade in the 11th century was a limited success.
其他那些通常被称为十字军运动的行动——甚至这个词本身都是时 代错误的，因为我认为直到十九世纪基督徒才开始使用这个词。 Most of the other ones that are typically called Crusades—and even that language is anachronistic because the term wasn't even used by the Christians until really, I think, the 19th century.
这个词在盛期中世纪使用过，但在第一世纪没有，在第一次十字军运动时可能也没有。 It was used in the High Middle Ages, but not in the first century, probably not in the First Crusade.
嗯，十一世纪和十二世纪——不，当时没有。是的，它后来变成了一个压迫性的词汇。 Well, 11th and 12th—no, it wasn't. Yeah, it became a term of oppression.
你知道，传教使命，就像阿西西的圣方济各寻求传播福音和 追求殉道那样，我认为这是一个真正典范性的替代方案。 Missions, you know, what St. Francis of Assisi is doing in seeking to evangelize and seeking after martyrdom as well, you know, I think is a real exemplary alternative.
确实是这样，但效果并不很好。 It was, but it wasn't very effective.
没错。 That's right.
确实如此。 That's right.
而且他本人在方济会中也宣讲过十字军东征。 And he also preached the Crusades himself in the Franciscans.
但我的意思是，我认为这种十字军精神体现在多种形式中。 But I mean, this crusading spirit, I think, is exemplified in a diversity of ways.
方济各代表了其中一种方式。 Francis represents one way.
我认为为基督教世界拿起武器是另一种同样正当的方式。 I think taking up arms on behalf of Christendom constitutes another equally legitimate.
是的，这两种冲动的核心都是耶稣的话：「人为朋友舍命，人的爱心 没有比这个大的。」约15:13。 Yes, and the thing that's at the core of both of those impulses is Jesus' words: Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
当方济各在第五次十字军东征期间去与苏丹对话 时，他和雷蒙·柳尔是用一种方式实践这种爱。 Francis and Ramon Llull were doing it in one way when Francis went to talk to the Sultan on the Fifth Crusade.
十字军战士们则用另一种方式，他们非常清楚地认为自己是在实践这种爱。 The Crusaders were doing it in another way, and they very much conceived of themselves as doing that.
这是一个重要观点：他们将十字军东征视为代表其他基督徒的爱的行动。 This is an important point: they saw the Crusades as an act of love on behalf of other Christians.
你提出这是一种爱的行为，但请帮助现代人的思维和我们的 感受，也帮助那些理解教会关于正义战争等教导的人理解。 You make that point that it was an act of love, but help the modern mind and our sensibilities, and also those who understand what the Church is teaching in just war and so forth.
我们说十字军东征有充分的理由，但这是教宗在号召一场某些人称之为宗教战争的行动。 We say that there was a strong case for the Crusades, but this is the Pope calling for what some would call a religious war.
请为我解释这如何符合天主教关于正义战争的教导。 Walk me through how this fits within Catholic teaching on just war.
实际上这很容易解释。 It's rather easy, actually.
正义战争理论当然是说，有些战争不仅是正义的，而且不打这些仗反而是不正义的。 Just war theory, of course, is the theory that says that there are some wars that are not only just, but it would be unjust not to fight them.
这源自于追溯到奥古斯丁和圣安布罗修的传统。 It draws on a tradition going back to Augustine and St. Ambrose.
圣安布罗修说过一段很有趣的话，自从我读到后就一直记在心里，我现在要意译一下。 And St. Ambrose said something very interesting that has always stuck with me ever since I read it, and I'm going to paraphrase it, of course.
他说，如果你看到有人做坏事，看到有人对他人使用暴力，看到有人对他人不 公，而你有能力阻止却不阻止，那么你在道德上就要为作恶者所做的事负责。 He said, if you see someone doing a wrong deed, you see someone using force on someone else, someone acting unjustly to someone else, and you have the means to stop it, and you don't, you're morally guilty of that act that has been carried out by the perpetrator.
这包括使用武力。 That includes force.
如果你有能力用武力制止不义之事却没有这样做，你在道德上就要为此负责。 If you have the ability to stop an unjust act by force and you fail to do it, you're morally guilty of it.
我想《公教会教理》也说了类似的话。 I think that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says something much the same.
罗马诺·瓜尔迪尼有一句很精彩的话，我认为很有预见性，他 说到最后，该隐的罪和彼拉多的罪在道德上是没有区别的。 There's a beautiful line in Romano Guardini where he says, I think quite prophetically, that at the end of the day, the sin of Cain and the sin of Pilate are morally indistinguishable.
我的意思是，杀害你的兄弟是谋杀，但不为你的兄弟挺身而出同样是谋杀。 I mean, to kill your brother—that's murder—but not to intervene on behalf of your brother is equally murderous.
不过让我换个角度，因为这不仅仅是当你看到他人施暴时个人要介入的责任。 Let me shift this, though, because it's not just an individual responsibility to intervene when you see another individual perpetrating some kind of violence.
我认为当你被赋予照顾和保护家人的责任时，这种责任更大。 I think even more so when you have been entrusted with the responsibility of, say, caring for and protecting your family.
作为六个孩子的父亲和九个孙辈的祖父，我深知 ，牧人确实要为羊舍命，但他不会让羊去送命。 As a father of six and now a grandfather of nine, I have the sense, you know, certainly the shepherd lays down his life for his sheep, but he doesn't lay the sheep down in their lives.
你知道，比舍己更好的是除掉那些攻击羊群的狼。 You know, and even better than laying down your life would be laying down the lives of the wolves who are attacking the sheep.
不这样做就是严重失职。 To not do so would be a serious dereliction of duty.
我记得当我在伊斯坦布尔（君士坦丁堡）时，听人们谈论征服，有 个穆斯林解释迪米制度多么仁慈——也就是对基督徒的奴役制度。 I remember hearing people say when I was in Istanbul, Constantinople, about the conquest, and we had a Muslim guy who explained how merciful the dhimma was—that is, the enslavement of Christians.
就是缴纳人头税，允许你私下敬拜。 It's the payment of a tax, and you're allowed to worship privately.
你不能公开展示任何东西，不能公开分享信仰，只能私下进行。 You can't display anything publicly; you can't share the faith publicly, but you can do it all privately.
然后人头税被提高到基督徒家庭根本无法承担的程度。 And then the tax is raised to the point where Christian families simply can't afford it.
他说，不过也有其他安排，这时一对马耳他夫妇站出来说，这个安排就是交出长子。 And he said, well, provisions were made, though, and out stepped these two, a couple from Malta, who said the provisions were the firstborn son.
这让人想起埃及的往事；如果你付不起税，就要交出你的长子。 It was shades of Egypt; you forfeited your firstborn son if you couldn't pay the tax.
他们不是只拿走几个，而是拿走很多，并把他们训练成穆斯林军人。 And they didn't just take a few; they took a lot, and they trained them as Muslim military.
这就是土耳其禁卫军的由来。 That's the foundation of the Janissaries in Turkey.
这个穆斯林竟然不认为这有什么可责备的吗？ And this Muslim guy did not view that as somehow reprehensible?
当那对马耳他夫妇站出来说话时，他就沉默了，因为他们在重述马耳他遭受攻击 的历史，以及第一波穆斯林战士如何是那些基督徒为抵税而被迫交出的孩子。 Well, once the Maltese couple stepped forward and spoke up, he was mum because they were rehearsing the history of the attack on Malta and how the first wave of Muslim militants were the children of the Christians who had been forfeited instead of the tax to be the warriors.
我认为这是一个关键点。 I think that's a crucial point.
所以当时的教宗和教会是出于责任——介入的责任——而且他们是出于爱而这样做。 So we have the Pope and the Church at the time calling out of an obligation—an obligation to step in—and they did it out of love.
但让我们更深入地区分一下。 But distinguish a little bit deeper.
有些人诽谤基督徒的行动，试图区分穆斯林圣战和基督徒的回应。 Some people cast aspersions on the Christian activity versus, kind of, differentiate the Muslim jihad versus what we would have in a Christian response.
再说一次，这很容易解释。 Once again, it's pretty easy to do.
穆斯林圣战是穆斯林的宗教义务，目的是扩大伊斯兰法律实施的范围，即伊斯兰世界。 Muslim jihad is a religious obligation for Muslims to extend the area that Muslim law is observed, the Dar al-Islam.
从伊斯兰的角度来说，这不一定要通过暴力来实 现，但它确实可以而且经常是通过暴力实现的。 In Islamic terms, it doesn't have to be done by violence, but it certainly can be and very often is.
所以圣战是一种侵略性和扩张性的行为。 So jihad is something that is aggressive and expansionistic.
基督教十字军东征的理念恰恰相反。 The Christian idea of crusading is exactly the opposite.
它是防御性的。 It's defensive.
十字军东征从来就不是要征服那些从未成为基督教地区的土地。 Crusades were never ever supposed to conquer land that had never been Christian.
它的目的是保护那些正在遭受攻击或者处于你所 说的迪米制度下、那种奴役状态下的基督徒。 It is designed to protect Christians who are either under attack or under the kind of dhimma, the kind of servitude that you're talking about, Scott.
这是完全不同的两回事。 It's a completely different kind of thing.
这是一种防御性的、被动的行动，就像我们讨论的，是出于爱来保护那些需要保护的人。 It's a defensive, reactive kind of activity that is, as we've been talking about, designed as an act of love to protect those who need to be protected.
所以，这确实是完全相反的。 So, kind of really the exact opposite.
这两者经常被等同视之，但它们实际上是天壤之别。 The two are very often equated as being the same kind of thing, but they're night and day, really.
我认为这是关键所在。 And I think that's the crucial thing.
当人们提到十字军东征时，就说，哦，他们都一样，双方手上都沾满了鲜血。 When the Crusades are brought up, it's like, Oh, well, they all were in it equally, and they both have blood on their hands.
这是一个完全不同的历史案例，这正是你们在写作和教学中所展示的。 It's a very, very different historical case, and that's what you're both making in your writing and your teaching—really showing that.
请继续收看方济各大学呈现，我们将探讨十字军东征背后的一些误解。 Stay with us on Franciscan University Presents as we go into some of the myths behind the Crusades.
当我教授中世纪世界和伊斯兰历史的课程，谈到十字军东征 时，我一定会向学生们提到十字军东征带来的积极成果。 When I teach my classes on the medieval world and the history of Islam, and I talk about the Crusades, I make sure to mention to my students the positive fruits of the Crusades.
其中之一就是欧洲经济的扩张。 One of which is the expansion of Europe economically.
特别是在盛期中世纪，经济出现了巨大的上升，同 时由于对圣地的兴趣，也出现了福音传播的觉醒。 In particular, there was a huge economic upswing in the High Middle Ages, and there was also this evangelical awakening in the High Middle Ages with the interest in the Holy Land.
人们对阅读和实践福音、过使徒生活方式更感兴趣 ，更多的人热衷于效法基督、过效法基督的生活。 There was more interest in reading and living the Gospel, living the apostolic lifestyle, and many more people were much more interested in the imitation of Christ and living life in the imitation of Christ.
因此，你看到在盛期中世纪建立了新的修会，甚至建立了平信徒使徒运动。 So, you see new religious orders founded and even lay apostolic movements founded in the High Middle Ages.
我是丹·麦克纳利。 I'm Dan McNally.
我是方济各大学的神学专业学生。 I'm a theology major here at Franciscan University.
我热爱研究神学，这是我的热情所在。 I love studying theology; it's my passion.
而且，我也热爱学习。 But I mean, I love learning too.
你走出教室时还想知道更多；你不希望讲座结束。 You walk out of the classroom wanting to know more; you don't want the lecture to end.
所以，我是说，作为学生群体中的一员真正好的地方是你可以在课外继续讨论。 So, I mean, that's the really great thing about being a part of a student body is you can continue to discuss outside.
这不仅仅是为了获得分数而学习；这是为了提升自己而学习，不仅通过 个人祈祷或个人学习，还通过团体，因为这就是我们被创造的目的。 It's not just studying to make a grade; it's learning to, you know, improve yourself, and not just through your own personal prayer or your own personal study, but through community, because that's what we're made for.
方济各大学在学术上追求卓越，在信仰上热忱天主教。 Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
人们认可方济各大学学术卓越和对天主教的热忱。 People recognize Franciscan University as being academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
通过我们的教职员工和学生，我们有独特的机会以多种方式展现这种学术卓越。 We have a unique opportunity through our faculty members and through our students to proclaim that academic excellence by reaching out in many different ways.
我们也在敬拜方式上保持对天主教的热忱，并在日常生活中将基督的爱带给他人。 We also remain passionately Catholic in the way in which we are able to worship and the way in which we are able to bring that love of Christ to others on a daily basis.
对我们来说，能够同时拥抱这两者很重要。 It's important for us to be able to embrace both.
欢迎回到方济各大学呈现。 Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
今天，我们讨论十字军东征。 Today, we're talking about the Crusades.
这是天主教徒经常遭受抨击的话题。 This is something that people do get hit at as Catholics oftentimes.
这在像《天国王朝》这样的流行电影中可以看到，这些电影包含许多历史错误。 It's seen in popular films like The Kingdom of Heaven, which contain a lot of historical inaccuracies.
你知道，就连前总统比尔·克林顿也说过一些历史上不准确的事情。 Even a former president, you know, Bill Clinton, talked about some things that were historically inaccurate.
我本想说这些说法有问题，但我认为它们实在是不准确。 I was going to say problematic, but I think they're really inaccurate.
你知道，我们听到的那些说法——我们已经讨论 过这种误解：十字军东征是公教会的侵略吗？ You know, the quote that we hear—we've already dealt with kind of the myth: Were the Crusades an aggression of the Catholic Church?
我们已经看到这种说法被驳斥了，因为现实是这 是一种防御性行动，是穆斯林首先发动攻击。 And we've already seen that that really is debunked because the reality is it was a defensive maneuver, and it was the Muslims who first attacked.
那么，当十字军在1099年占领耶路撒冷时，街道上 真的血流成河、深及脚踝吗？这是一个确切的引述。 So, when the Crusades captured Jerusalem in 1099, did the blood really run ankle-deep in the streets, which is an exact quote?
这是关于基督徒制造大屠杀的准确描述吗？ Was it an accurate tale of the massacres perpetrated by Christians?
因为，再说一次，连前总统都用了这个确切的引述。 Because, again, a former president even used that exact quote.
是的，他确实说过。 Yes, it did.
简单的答案是不是。 The short answer is no.
还有一个更详细的答案。 There's a longer answer.
简单的答案是基于物理学；要让血流深度达到克 林顿总统所说的程度，需要的人数远远太多了。 The short answer is due to physics; it would take far too many people to make it run as deep as President Clinton said it did.
他引用了夏特尔的富歇所写的十字军编年史来做这个陈述，但他使用得很笨拙。 He was drawing on a Crusade chronicle to make that statement, Fulcher of Chartres, but he was using it very clumsily.
你不能照字面理解古代和中世纪的文献。 You can't take ancient and medieval documents at face value.
你必须了解他们写作的背景，也必须了解他们说这些话的目的。 You have to know the context that they're writing in, and you have to know the purpose of what they're saying.
富歇写的实际上是一篇宣传文章，一篇公关文章，带有一些夸耀的成分，他借鉴并运用了 旧约的意象——他有意识地运用了以色列人战胜敌人的旧约意象，说我们在做同样的事。 Fulcher was writing something that was very significantly an advertising tract, a PR tract, and a little bit of a boastful statement, pulling in and drawing on Old Testament imagery—very consciously drawing on Old Testament imagery of victories that the Israelites had won over their foes and saying, We're doing the same kind of thing.
但是不，血并没有流到马的嚼环或膝盖或其他什么地方。 But no, the blood did not run to the horse's bridles or knees or whatever.
这些都是取自启示录，也来自旧约。 This is all drawn from the Book of Revelation as well; it's from the Old Testament.
但整个要点是要表明这场斗争，这场冲突，是善与恶之间的较量。 But the whole point is to show that the struggle, the conflict, is between evil and good.
是的，这不是要按事实或数学来理解。 Yes, it's not meant to be taken factually or mathematically.
没错。 That's right.
即使你承认克林顿的观点，这也很有问题，而且这种说法带有争议性的自我服务倾向。 And it's very problematic, even if you concede the point that Clinton is making, and it's polemically self-serving.
有一点是存在的，就是滥用和暴行确实一直都有。 Something survives, namely the fact that abuses and atrocities have always been committed.
但是'滥用不废用'的原则应该支配这种情况的辩护。 But the principle of abusus non tollit usum (abuse does not negate use) should govern the situation that vindicates it.
滥用并不废除正当使用。 The abuse doesn't abolish the use.
在第二次世界大战中，为了清除纳粹这个祸害，我们也犯下了无数 暴行，但没有人否定艾森豪威尔所说的那场欧洲十字军的正当性。 We committed countless atrocities during World War II to rid the world of that scourge called Nazism, but nobody invalidates that crusade in Europe, which is how Eisenhower described it.
这是一个很好的类比。 That's a very good parallel.
但关于那场屠杀还有一点需要提及，那就是在古代和中 世纪，乃至近代世界中普遍适用于所有人的战争法则。 But there's something else that needs to be mentioned in terms of that massacre, and that is the laws of war that applied universally to everyone in the ancient and medieval world and really up into the modern world.
当一座城市被围攻时，如果投降，就可以谈条件，城 中居民的生命和在某种程度上的财产可以得到保全。 When a city is besieged, if it surrenders, then it can make terms, and the lives and, to a certain degree, perhaps the property of the people in the city are spared.
如果一座城市决定抵抗冒险，那么一旦被攻破， 城中的一切——人民和财物——都属于征服者。 If a city decides to resist and take its chances, then if it falls to storm, everything—the people, the belongings in the city—belongs to the conqueror.
这当然很不愉快，我肯定不想在这样的事件中成 为征服者或被征服者的一方，但这就是法则。 Now, that may be very unpleasant, and I certainly would not want to be present at such an event on either the conquering or the defeated side, but that is the law.
这是当时的通行法则。 This was the common law.
穆斯林严格且无情地遵守这一法则。 The Muslims observed it fastidiously, ruthlessly.
当你看到穆斯林几个世纪以来如何征服基督教地区，一直到109 9年耶路撒冷陷落，你会看到一段被完全粉饰和遗忘的可怕历史。 When you look at how the Muslims conquered Christian lands for centuries, building up until 1099 when Jerusalem falls, you see a horrendous record that is completely whitewashed and forgotten.
更重要的是：我认为我们投射了自己的自我蔑视，把这一切都当作是原 始殖民化——好像这是我们作为第一世界试图殖民第三世界的尝试。 And I think more to the point is this: I think we project our own self-contempt in acting as though this was all, you know, proto-colonialization—that this was our attempt, you know, as the First World to kind of colonize the Third World.
但正如你和汤姆·马登教授指出的，伊斯兰才是当时的第一世界。 But as you've pointed out, and as Professor Tom Madden has pointed out, Islam was the First World.
穆斯林文明确实是超级大国，一直到16世纪左右。 The Muslim civilization was the superpower, really, up until about the 16th century.
在11、12和13世纪，欧洲更像是第三世界，他们才是 被强行殖民的对象，就像11世纪小亚细亚的陷落等等。 Europe, through the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries, was more like a Third World, and they were the ones who were being colonized by force, you know, with Asia Minor falling as it did in the 11th century and so on.
是的，我们没有足够的时间列举所有穆斯林对基督教城市的屠杀， 但仅举两三个例子：1144年平安夜在埃德萨，穆斯林攻入第一 个十字军国家，屠杀所有人——他们特别针对所有法兰克基督徒。 Yes, and we don't have nearly enough time to list all the Muslim massacres of Christian cities, but just to list two or three: Christmas Eve 1144 in Edessa, the Muslims broke into the first Crusader state and massacred all—they targeted specifically all the Frankish Christians.
这实际上是一次种族清洗或种族灭绝；他们杀光了所有人。 It was really an act of ethnic cleansing or genocide; they killed them all.
两年后，当那里的亚美尼亚基督徒请求十字军回来拯救他们脱 离穆斯林统治时，穆斯林又回来杀光了所有亚美尼亚基督徒。 Two years later, when the Armenian Christians there asked for the Crusaders to come back and save them from the Muslims and rule them, the Muslims came back again and killed all the Armenian Christians.
1268年，穆斯林占领了北方十字军国家的首都安提阿，屠杀了如此多的基 督徒，以至于安提阿大多数贵族家族从历史记录中消失了——他们都死了。 In 1268, the Muslims took Antioch, the capital of that northern Crusader state, and massacred so many of the Christians there that most of the noble families of Antioch simply disappear from the historical record—they're all dead.
1453年，君士坦丁堡陷落时发生了大规模屠杀和对修女的强暴。 In 1453, the fall of Constantinople saw enormous massacres and rapes of nuns.
我是说，这都是战争法则的一部分。 I mean, this is all part of the laws of war.
如果要批评1099年在耶路撒冷发生的事，就需要看看更大的历史背景。 If you're going to criticize what happened in 1099 in Jerusalem, you need to look at the larger record.
你还要看看1944年的德累斯顿，那场持续数日的大 轰炸对平民造成的破坏比长崎和广岛加起来还要严重。 You also have to look at Dresden in 1944, the firebombing of the city that did more devastation to a civilian population than Nagasaki and Hiroshima put together for days and nights.
你知道，就像B-24轰炸机那样冷静地看待这件事，我绝不是支持纳粹， 但当你看到这些暴行，认识到这不仅在道德上值得质疑——这是应该谴责的 ，在道德上应该谴责的——而且你以严谨的学术态度列举的这些细节，你必 须把它们放在一个正在消失的世界背景下来看——一个基督教世界。 You know, with the calm detachment of a B-24 bomber or whatever, and I am not pro-Nazi in any sense, but when you look at the abuses and when you recognize the fact that this is more than morally questionable—this is reprehensible, morally reprehensible—and the details that you marshal, I think with great scholarly rigor and scruple, you have to see those against the backdrop of a world that is simply vanishing—a Christian world.
它消失了。 It disappears.
我是说，基督教世界三分之二消失了，在一两个世纪的时间里蒸发了？ I mean, two-thirds of Christendom is gone, vaporized in the space of what, a century or two?
地中海世界的大部分都被清空了，穆斯林简单地接管了；他们整个吞并了。 Most of the Mediterranean world is vacated, and the Muslims simply take over; they swallow it whole.
为什么不会有十字军东征来试图夺回这些呢？ Why wouldn't there be a Crusade to try to win this back?
嗯，有时人们说，十字军花了很长时间才做出回应。 Well, sometimes people say, Well, it took a long time for the Crusaders to respond.
花了大约450年；用了这么长时间才宣布十字军东征。 It took 450 or so years; it took that long for a Crusade to be declared.
但基督徒并没有用那么长时间才开始反击。 But it did not take that long for Christians to counterattack.
基督徒一直在用其他方式反击。 Christians have been counterattacking in other ways.
拜占庭人，东方基督徒，一直在反复反击。 The Byzantines, the Eastern Christians, have been counterattacking repeatedly.
在10世纪，拜占庭军队深入圣地，一直到拿撒勒。 In the 10th century, Byzantine armies got as far into the Holy Land as Nazareth.
他们的后勤补给线过长，无法继续前进只能撤退，但他们一直在尝试。 Their logistic lines got overextended, and they couldn't make it any further and had to withdraw, but they were trying.
意大利人和南法兰西人也在尝试。 The Italians and the Southern French were trying.
西班牙人在伊比利亚半岛开始了收复失地运动。 The Spanish were beginning their Reconquista in the Spanish peninsula.
所以有很多基督教力量早期反击的例子。 So there are plenty of other earlier examples of Christian forces counterattacking.
比如，当你对比奥古斯丁时代四五世纪的世界时 ，会感到震惊——整个北非都是基督教地区。 It's breathtaking when you contrast, for example, the world of Augustine in the fourth and fifth centuries—all of North Africa is Christian.
一千年后，全都不是了。 A thousand years later, none of it is.
发生了什么？ What happened?
在一两个世纪内，当你看穆罕默德在短暂的一生中所做的事，他是 一个教师，但首先是一个战士——而且是一个非常有效的战士。 Well, within one or two centuries, when you look at what Muhammad did in a short life, he was a teacher, but he was a warrior first and foremost—and a very effective one.
穆斯林对此并不讳言；他们为他的遗产感到非常自豪和感激。 And Muslims are not quiet about that; they're very proud and grateful for his legacy.
所以当你比较耶稣和穆罕默德以及他们创立的两个宗教时，当基 督徒以基督的名义杀戮时，他们往往是在背叛他们的创始人。 So when you compare Jesus and Muhammad and the two religions they founded, when Christians simply kill in the name of Christ, they're often betraying their founder.
但当穆斯林效仿穆罕默德征服圣战地区，即那些尚未归顺伊斯兰世 界的地区时，这是一种模仿行为，在他们的理解中这是一种美德。 But when Muslims follow Muhammad in conquering the Dar al-Jihad, that part of the world that has not submitted to the Dar al-Islam, this is something of imitative behavior, and it's something that is virtuous in their understanding.
尽管这让我们感到不舒服，但是是时候成熟起来，从他们自己的角度来看待他们了。 As uncomfortable as that makes us feel, it's time to grow up and look at them from their own perspective.
这也帮助我理解为什么直到19世纪，穆斯林都不认为十字军是野蛮人。 This also helped me understand why, really, until the 19th century, Muslims did not think that the Crusaders were these vandals.
他们尊重基督徒的战争是一种势均力敌的尝试；这些是诚实的对手。 They respected Christian warfare as an attempt to kind of match; these were honest adversaries.
即使在十字军东征期间，穆斯林也更喜欢诚实、全心全意的基督徒对手。 Even in the course of the Crusades, the Muslims preferred honest, wholehearted Christian adversaries.
在第六次十字军东征中，德国皇帝腓特烈二世去谈判而 不是战斗，还特意在穆斯林东道主面前诋毁基督徒。 On the Sixth Crusade, the German Emperor Frederick II went to negotiate, not fight, and went out of his way to badmouth Christians to his Muslim hosts.
他的穆斯林东道主感到被冒犯，基本上是在对他 说，你为什么不做个好基督徒，站在自己这边？ His Muslim hosts were offended and basically said to him, Why don't you be a good Christian and play your own side?
战斗吧！ Fight!
别当叛徒了。 Stop being a traitor.
再说一次，我们并不是要否认十字军东征时期发生的邪恶行为。 And again, we want to say that this is not to deny the evils that were happening at the time of the Crusades.
你知道，十字军有时也有一些观点——教宗乌尔班 二世谴责过这些，克莱尔沃的伯尔纳也是如此。 You know, there were views at times by the Crusaders—Pope Urban II condemned that, as did Bernard of Clairvaux.
没错。 That's right.
那不是十字军东征的本质部分。 That was not an integral part of the Crusade.
不，事实上，那是对精神的违背。 No, in fact, it was a violation of the spirit.
确实有许多违背十字军东征精神和规则的行为，但正如你所说，这并不能否定其原则。 There were plenty of violations of the spirit and of the rules for the Crusades, but that, as you said, doesn't invalidate the principle.
在我们有限的时间里，让我们谈谈另一个误解，我是说，人们经常提到的——你知道 ，我们刚才谈到的那些经常被提及的暴行，实际上是缺乏背景且历史上并不准确的。 And just to go to another myth here, just in our limited amount of time, I mean, it's often brought up—you know, we just talked about some of the atrocities that are often thrown around that are really missing context and are historically inaccurate.
正如很多人谈论的，是否有贪婪和财富的动机，试图夺取这一切？ Was there a motivation, as a lot of people talk about, as a motivation of greed and wealth and trying to capture all of this?
请把这放在历史背景中解释一下。 Put that in some historical context.
不，那是个误解。 No, that's a myth.
我可以简单地用'不是'来回答这个问题。 I could answer that question simply by saying no.
让我给你讲一个我最近发现的13世纪的有趣故事。 Let me tell you an interesting story that I just discovered the other day from the 13th century.
有一个法国贵族，恩格兰·德·库西，用专业术语来说，他是个混蛋。 There was a French nobleman, Enguerrand de Coucy, who was a jerk, to put it technically.
他发现一些年轻人擅自闯入他的领地，仅仅因为擅闯就处决了他们。 He found some young men trespassing on his property, and he executed them just for trespassing.
这个案件最终呈到了路易斯九世面前，这位法国国王也是一位十字军王。 Basically, the case went to Louis IX, King Louis of France, who was a Crusader king.
路易斯审判了他，判他有罪，除其他惩罚外，还判他去参加三年十字军东 征，他后来用12,000里弗赎回了这个刑罚，这是一笔巨额钱财。 Louis tried him, found him guilty, and among other things, sentenced him to three years of crusading, which he had redeemed by paying 12,000 livres, which is a huge amount of money.
我讲这个故事是要说明到13世纪中期，参加十字军东征 被视为如此艰难、危险和昂贵，以至于成为一种惩罚。 I'm telling you that story to show you that by the middle of the 13th century, crusading was viewed as so difficult, so dangerous, and so expensive that it was along the lines of a fine.
所以这不是监禁刑罚，而是一种忏悔性的惩罚，这种情况发生在很多人身上。 So instead of a penitentiary sentence being slapped on him, this was a penitential sentence, which happened very many times to a lot of people.
所以人们并不是急着去十字军东征赚钱；它成了一种赎罪的方式。 So people weren't rushing off to make their money in the Crusades; it became a means of atonement.
人们认为这是发财机会的原因之一，又要回到夏特尔的富歇的编年史。 One of the reasons that people think it was an opportunity to make your fortune is, again, going back to Fulcher of Chartres' chronicle.
同样是说耶路撒冷街道血流成河的那本书也说， 来东方吧，你会变得富有，获得大片土地统治。 The same one that said that Jerusalem's streets ran so deeply with blood also said, Come east and become rich and get a large amount of land to rule.
那是一本宣传册，其准确性可能不比你收到的佛罗里达公寓广告高多少。 That's an advertising brochure, and it's probably not much more accurate than the ones you get for condos in Florida.
是啊，就像「参军可以看世界」差不多。 Yeah, or Join the army and see the world, pretty much.
而且他们经常需要自己出资。 And they often had to fund it.
在读你所有的文章时，有很多提到他们必须自筹资金，其中一 个王国仅仅为了资助十字军东征就要付出相当于六年的税收。 In reading all of your articles, there are a number of references to them having to fund it, and upwards of six years' worth of taxes for one of the kingdoms to just fund the Crusade.
在路易斯九世的第七次十字军东征中，很难把中世纪的钱换算成现代货币， 但粗略说来，一个骑士参加十字军东征的花费相当于今天的25万美元。 On the Seventh Crusade for Louis IX, it's very hard to translate medieval money into modern money, but roughly speaking, for a knight to go on crusade, it would have cost him about the equivalent of $250,000 today.
所以他们不得不这样做；这是自愿的。 So they had to do things like this; it was voluntary.
他们的生命处于危险之中。 Their lives were at stake.
在第一次十字军东征中，他们中的许多人——大多数人——没有回来，损失令人震惊。 In the First Crusade, many of them—most—did not return, and the losses are staggering.
损失非常高；我想伤亡率达到了75%。 The losses are very high; I think you're looking at a 75% casualty rate.
这太高了；这是个难以置信的数字。 That's pretty high; that's an unbelievable figure.
那么，你能解释一下吗？ Well, can you explain?
这是一个我需要你为我们解答的奥秘：那些广泛流传的讽刺漫 画，在我看来相当邪恶，因为你提出的观点明显是正确的。 This is a puzzle that I need to have you figure out for us: the widespread caricature, which strikes me as pretty wicked, because the points you make are transparently obvious.
为什么其他人没有意识到这一点，特别是学者们？ Why haven't others cottoned on to it, particularly scholars?
你来自威斯康星大学，那是自由派学术的温床。 You came out of the University of Wisconsin, which is sort of a hotbed of liberal scholarship.
你是如何在那里生存下来的？ How did you survive that?
现在你教的学生，他们对这些说法有什么看法？ And the students you teach now, what do they make of these claims?
好吧，对你第一个问题的回答是grazie。 Well, the answer to your first question is grazie.
十字军历史学家实际上在消除这些误解方面做得相当不错。 Crusade historians actually have done a rather good job of dispelling the myths.
我们做得不够好的是跨越十字军历史与公众之间的鸿沟。 What we haven't done a good job of is crossing the divide from Crusade history to the public.
我们一直在努力。 We've been trying.
几年前我和一个朋友谈到这个问题，说要花多长时间才能纠正这些记录？ I talked to one of my friends about this a few years ago and said, How long is it going to take us to get the record straightened out?
他说，可能永远都不会。 And he said, Probably never.
我们需要一个站在我们这边的斯蒂芬·朗西曼爵士，因为，我是说 ，那位50年代初的作者基本上像文学海啸一样席卷了全世界。 What we need is a Sir Stephen Runciman on our side because, I mean, that author in the early '50s basically just swept the world like a literary tsunami.
我是说，每个人都在读他的作品。 I mean, everybody was reading him.
当我坐下来读他的作品时，我知道这些都是谎言，但天啊，他写得真好！ And when I sat down and read him, I knew these were lies, but man, can he write!
但它们讲得非常好——优美而且很有说服力。 But they're very well told—beautiful and very compelling.
这个牛津剑桥英语系列需要重写；需要由一个了解十字军东征历史 记录的人重新撰写，用同样优美的语言，展现历史缺失的魅力。 This Oxbridge English series needs to be rewritten; it needs to be redone by somebody who understands the historical record of the Crusades and can encapsulate that in the same kind of language, the glamour of the lack of history.
嗯，他知道如何讲故事，而且讲得很好。 Well, he understands how to tell stories and to tell stories very well.
但这很容易做到，因为十字军东征充满了激动人心和美丽的故事。 But it's easy to do because the Crusades are full of exciting and beautiful stories.
你在伏尔泰作品中发现的反基督教观点，后来又被吉本 和沃尔特·司各特爵士提出，当时只是少数派观点。 The anti-Christian approach that you find in Voltaire and then raised by Gibbon and Sir Walter Scott was a minority report.
现在它已经不仅仅是多数派观点；它已经渗入水源，存在于我们呼吸的空气中。 Now it's beyond a majority report; it's in the water supply and in the air we breathe.
当我去圣地时，这是你从基督徒那里听到的唯一说法。 When I went to the Holy Land, it's the only thing you hear from Christians.
同样，1999年有一群新教徒进行了一次道歉之旅，一次和解之旅，向每个 穆斯林为十字军东征道歉，这在当地基督徒看来一定很奇怪——有点怪诞。 As well, there was a group of Protestants in 1999 that went on an apology walk, a reconciliation walk, and apologized for the Crusades to every Muslim, which must have struck the local Christians in the area as a little odd—something grotesque about that.
在这短短的几分钟里，你能谈谈关于杀死穆斯林就能获得赎罪券这个误解吗？ In a very short few moments here, can you speak to the myth surrounding indulgences being offered for killing Muslims?
这是准确的吗？ Was that accurate?
不，这就是简短的答案。 No, that's your short answer.
没有因杀死穆斯林而获得赎罪券的事，这又是一个被不断传播的神话和传说。 There’s no indulgence being given for killing Muslims because that is definitely something, again, perpetuated as part of myth and legend.
克莱尔沃的伯尔纳在他的《新骑士颂》中说，如果不得不 这样做，杀死穆斯林是一种善行和美德，这是他的意思。 Bernard of Clairvaux said in his In Praise of the New Knighthood that it was a good and virtuous act to kill Muslims, is what he meant, if you had to do it.
但他说——他很谨慎地说——如果我们不必这样做会更好。 But it would be better, he said—and he was very careful to say this—it would be better if we didn't have to do it.
我们只在不得不做的时候才这样做。 We only do this when we have to do it.
是的，这样的细微区别不会成为头条。 Yeah, distinctions like that don't make the headlines.
确实不会。但这甚至不是小区别；他说得很清楚。 No, they don't. But it's not even a minor distinction; he was very clear about it.
但愿如此。 You hope.
请继续收看方济各大学呈现。 Stay with us on Franciscan University Presents.
我叫凯利·巴特勒，我是传播艺术专业的。 My name is Kelly Butler, and I'm a Communication Arts major.
我选修了独立数字电影制作——确实很紧张，在剪辑实验室熬了很多通宵完成作业。 I took Independent Digital Filmmaking—definitely intense, many all-nighters in the editing lab getting things done.
教宗若望保禄二世有一句话：不要害怕像最初的使徒一样走上街头，在公共场所传扬基督。 Pope John Paul II has a quote: Do not be afraid to go out into the streets and into public places to preach Christ like the first apostles.
这就是我们作为天主教徒和基督徒的召叫。 That's what we're called to as Catholics and as Christians.
你有责任让你创作的每一个作品都反映基督。 You have that responsibility that every work you create should reflect Christ.
方济各大学在学术上追求卓越，在信仰上热忱拥抱公教会。 Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
在富有启发性的灵修指导者带领下，通过方济各大学朝圣之旅探索你的公教会传统瑰宝。 Explore the treasures of your Catholic heritage on a Franciscan University pilgrimage led by inspiring spiritual directors.
你将在圣地、波兰、法国和意大利追随圣人和殉道者的足迹，通过 每日弥撒、告解、祈祷和基督徒团契的喜乐加深对耶稣基督的爱。 You'll walk in the footsteps of saints and martyrs in the Holy Land, Poland, France, and Italy, and you'll deepen your love for Jesus Christ through daily Mass, confession, prayer, and the joy of Christian fellowship.
让方济各大学带领你踏上信仰朝圣之旅。 Let Franciscan University lead you on a pilgrimage of faith.
欲知详情，请访问franciscan.edu。 Find out more at franciscan.edu.
欢迎回到方济各大学呈现。 Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
这整个节目源自方济各大学的核心。 This entire program springs forth from the very heart of Franciscan University.
现在正在我们的传播艺术工作室录制。 It's being taped right now in our Communication Arts studio.
我们的学生在操作摄像机和设备。 Our students are operating the cameras and equipment.
我们的嘉宾和我本人都在方济各大学。 Our panelists, as well as myself, are here at Franciscan University.
克劳福德博士，我们一直在讨论十字军东征，我真的很感谢你揭示了一些误解。 Dr. Crawford, we've been talking about the Crusades, and I really appreciate you unpacking some of the myths.
在我们结束时你提到了这个道歉之旅，我和其他人可 能认为教宗若望保禄二世确实为十字军东征道歉了。 You mentioned something as we kind of closed out about this apology walk, and I and others may have thought Pope John Paul actually apologized for the Crusades.
你能帮我们澄清事实吗？ Could you help set the record straight?
当然可以，他没有道歉。我喜欢你的简短回答。 Sure, he didn't. I like your very short answers.
嗯，有简短的回答，也有详细的解释。 Well, there are short ones and there are unpacked ones.
他并没有为十字军东征道歉；他为天主教徒在十字军东 征过程中可能做错的事情道歉，这是完全不同的概念。 He did not apologize for the Crusades; he apologized for things that Catholics might have done that were wrong in the course of the Crusades, which is a very different proposition.
而且这不是假设性的；他没有说「可能做过」。 And it wasn't hypothetical; he didn't say might have done.
他承认确实有一些错误的事情。 He acknowledged that there were things that were wrong.
十字军东征本身并不是他道歉的对象。 The Crusades themselves were not the thing that he apologized for.
不，确实不是。 No, they were not.
不，他没有也确实不能这样做，因为十字军东征是由他的历代 前任教宗设计、支持和颁布的教会活动，这真正源自训导权。 No, he did not and really could not, because the Crusades were designed and supported and promulgated by centuries and centuries of his predecessors as an activity of the Church stemming really from the Magisterium.
所以作为天主教徒，你确实不能说十字军东征是不正当的。 So you really cannot, as a Catholic, say that the Crusades were unjustified.
你可以说十字军东征中的这个或那个行为是不正当的，这没问题， 我可以举出一些例子告诉你，虽然可能比大多数人想象的要少。 You can say that this or that action in the Crusades was unjustified, and that's fine, and I can pick some out and tell you about them, although there are probably fewer than most people think.
但你不能说十字军东征这个行动本身是不正当的；教会已经对此表态了。 But you cannot say that crusading as an activity is unjustified; the Church has already spoken on that.
而且穆斯林对基督徒的暴力行为比例也是不成比例的。 And also a disproportionate ratio of Muslim violence to Christians.
是的，确实如此。 Yes, indeed.
我多次去圣地，今年早些时候去的时候，每次和妻子一起去，我都要做好心 理准备，因为她总是会站出来为拜占庭人和十字军辩护，而我就在一旁观察 等待反应，因为来自我们天主教朝圣者同伴的反应总是：这是邪恶的。 When I was in the Holy Land repeatedly, but earlier this year, it's one of those things where I go with my wife, and I have to brace myself because invariably she will speak up in defense of the Byzantines and of the Crusaders, and I just watch and wait for the blowback because from our own fellow Catholic pilgrims, there's this backlash: This was evil.
这是魔鬼的；这是撒但的。 This was diabolical; this was satanic.
然后我们不得不筛选和整理，指出不，这是我们必须重 新审视的事情，因为从历史事实来看，存在很多误解。 And then we have to kind of sift and sort and indicate that no, this has got to be something that we revisit because, as a matter of historical fact, there are a lot of misunderstandings.
是的，确实存在很多误解。 Yes, there are.
我认为这很关键。 I think that's crucial.
这就是我们在这里的原因，因为有太多事实和虚构。 That's why we're here, is that there is so much fact and fiction.
我认为在重建准确的历史记录时，引入爱与慈善这个 主题很有帮助，我认为这正是十字军事业的核心。 I think in reconstructing an accurate historical record, it helps to invoke this theme of love, of charity, which is, I think, at the heart of the crusading enterprise.
它是由爱驱动的；它是对基督教世界的防卫，这不是一个法律理论——这是一种爱的行为。 It's animated by love; it's a defense of Christendom, which is not a juridical theory—it's an act of love.
你想给予他人你最珍视的：耶稣基督。 You want to give to the other that which you most esteem: Jesus Christ.
如果他已经归依基督，那么他就需要得到保护和维护。 And if he’s already assimilated himself to Christ, then he needs to be protected and preserved.
如果穆斯林执意要强迫他归顺异教，那么善良的人就应该介入保护他。 If Muslims are bent on subjugating him to an alien creed, then good men ought to intervene to protect him.
是的，你说了一些重要和有趣的事情——就是，我们需要 回过头来看看他们当时是如何看待自己所做的事情的。 Yes, and you said something important and interesting there—that is, we need to go back and look at what they thought of what they were doing.
没错。 That's right.
而且你需要谨慎地做这件事，因为很容易用现代思维去解读中世纪的资料，说：「哦， 我知道他们在说什么」，就像夏特尔的富歇说血流得那么深，所以他一定是字面意思。 And you need to do it carefully because it's easy to take a modern mentality back to medieval sources and say, Oh, I know what they’re talking about, as in the case with Fulcher of Chartres, who said the blood ran this deep, so he must have meant it.
不，他不是那个意思。 No, he didn't mean it.
历史学家需要谨慎和尊重，他们需要以谦逊的态度接近原始资 料——当时的资料——倾听那些人是如何谈论他们自己的。 Historians need to be careful and respectful, and they need to approach primary sources—the sources of the time—with humility and listen to what those people are saying about themselves.
他们为什么要这样做？ Why did they do it?
他们认为他们在做什么？ What did they think they were doing?
他们为什么认为他们必须这样做？ Why did they think they had to do it?
如果你以这种谦逊的态度和倾听的能力去阅读十字军历史资料，你会对 十字军东征形成一个与《美国新闻》和《时代周刊》完全不同的认识。 If you read Crusade history sources with that level of humility and that ability to listen to what they have to say, you will come up with a very different idea about what the Crusades were than what you find in U.S. News and Time.
我希望你能稍微详细解释一下：在十字军东征的背 景下，中世纪基督教世界的普通人是怎么想的？ I would love for you to just unpack that a little bit: what was in the mind of the average person in medieval Christendom, if you will, in light of the Crusades?
他们是怎么想的？ What did they think?
我是说，不是宣传版本，而是他们内心真实的想法是什么？ I mean, not the PR version, if you will, but what was really in the mind of those?
他们如何看待十字军东征？ How did they view the Crusades?
首先，再说一次，他们把它视为一种爱的行为。 Well, first of all, once again, to keep repeating this, they viewed it as an act of love.
他们也非常重要地——这是我们在现代世界忘记的——把它视为一种忏悔的行为。 They also viewed it very significantly—and we forget this in the modern world—but they very significantly viewed it as an act of penance.
十字军东征和忏悔，就像告解后的补赎一样，是十字军东征的一个非常重要的元素。 Crusading and penance, as in penance after confession, was a very significant element of the Crusades.
这是不愉快的，昂贵的，危险的，而且很可能导致死亡。 It was unpleasant, it was expensive, it was dangerous, and it was likely to result in your death.
它本质上是朝圣的延伸，作为一种忏悔的行为。 It was an extension of pilgrimage, per se, as being an act of penance.
这是一种武装朝圣，比普通朝圣更危险和困难，这是一种赎清罪过的现世惩罚的方式。 This is an armed pilgrimage that is even more dangerous and difficult than an ordinary pilgrimage, and it's a way to expiate the temporal penalties for your sins.
这是一个巨大的牺牲。 It's a huge sacrifice.
当你想到乔叟描述的坎特伯雷朝圣时，那些朝圣者知道他们会回来。 When you consider Chaucer's account of the pilgrimage to Canterbury, those pilgrims knew they'd come back.
是的，但如果你去耶路撒冷解放圣地，很可能你永远都不会回来。 Yes, but if you go to Jerusalem to liberate the holy places, the likelihood is you'll never come back.
在第一次十字军东征中，可能有多达四分之三的参与者没有回来。 On the First Crusade, it may have been as many as three-fourths of the participants who didn't come back.
你知道，这里有一个断层，我认为至少可以通过类比部分克服。 You know, there's a disconnect here that I think can be overcome, at least in part, by an analogy.
因为，你知道，我想我们很多人都读过汤姆·布罗考的《最伟大的一代》，你可以 通过像我父亲这样的人的眼睛看到战斗、牺牲和远征海外是什么样的，无论是在太 平洋战场还是欧洲战场，不仅失去了多少生命，还失去了比生命更多的东西。 Because, you know, I think many of us have read Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation, and you can see through the eyes of men just like my dad what it was like to fight and sacrifice and to go overseas, either in the Pacific theater or the European theater, and how many lives were lost, but how much more than just life was lost.
我的意思是，这是一种巨大的世俗忏悔。 I mean, it was a tremendous sort of secular penance.
你可以事后愤世嫉俗地说，不，这只是试图传播美国价值观。 You can look at it cynically after the fact and say, No, it was just an attempt to kind of spread things American.
你知道，我们庆祝退伍军人节，我们庆祝阵亡将士纪念 日，这是对的，因为我们认可爱国主义的美德和牺牲。 You know, we celebrate Veterans Day; we celebrate Memorial Day, and rightly so, because we recognize the virtue of patriotism and the sacrifices.
但当你为了使世界对民主和经济自由更安全而打世界大战时，这是一回事。 But when you fight world wars to make the world safer for democracy and economic freedom, that's one thing.
但如果你要为了宗教自由和基督教信仰而战，为那些被征服、被俘虏、被奴役和被强 迫改变信仰的基督教家庭而战，在我看来这不是更低的优先级；这是更高的优先级。 But if you're going to fight to make the world safe for religious freedom and the Christian faith, for the Christian families that have been conquered and captured and enslaved and forcibly converted, it seems to me that is not a lower priority; it's a higher priority.
这就是对十字军东征的一个好定义。 And that is a good definition of what the Crusades are about.
在你对这个四部分神话的阐述中，一个典型的指控 是这些人被愤世嫉俗所支配；他们不相信先知。 In your elaboration of this myth—a four-part myth—one of the charges that is typically made is that these guys were governed by cynicism; they didn't believe the prophet.
这都是胡说八道。 It was all claptrap.
他们被征服欲、金钱欲和一种奇怪的虔诚所驱使，但这些都是胡说。 They were driven by a lust for conquest and money and a kind of weird piety, but all of that is balderdash.
他们被解放神圣之物、珍贵之物的愿望所驱使，他 们准备做出最高的自我牺牲——献出自己的鲜血。 They were driven by this desire to liberate something sacred, something precious, and they were prepared to make a supreme sacrifice of self—their own blood.
我正在写一本十字军领袖夏蒂永的雷诺的传记，他在1187年哈丁战役后 被萨拉丁杀害。我相信是他的祖父，是但泽的领主和法国北部沙隆的伯爵。 I'm working on a biography of a Crusade leader, Renaud of Châtillon, who was murdered by Saladin after the Battle of Hattin in 1187. His grandfather, I believe it was, was the Lord of Danzig and the Count of Chalon in northern France.
沙隆伯爵领是一个重要的领地——准确说是一个伯爵领。 The County of Chalon was a significant principality—a county, rather.
他的祖父卖掉了那个伯爵领，为的是筹集资金参加十字军东征。 His grandfather sold that county in order to raise the money to go on Crusades.
他实际上永久地让家族失去了这块领地，这是中世纪贵族 不愿意做的事，但他为了筹集资金继续前进而这样做了。 He pretty much permanently alienated it from the family, which is something that medieval nobles didn't like to do, but he did it in order to get the money to go on.
这是第一部分的第二部分。 It was a second part of the first part.
你知道，亚里士多德教导说财产实际上是自我的延伸。 You know, Aristotle teaches that property is really an extension of the self.
剥离自己的财产——这是一种巨大的损失。 To divest yourself of your property—that's an enormous depletion.
是的，他们经常这样做，这很普遍。 Yes, and they did it habitually and commonly.
你必须这样做才能参加十字军东征，每个人都知道这一点。 You had to do that to go on Crusade, and everybody knew it.
所以当我们诽谤我们的祖先时，这是一种历史诽谤。 So when we commit this blackguardism about our ancestors, that's a kind of historical libel.
我们诽谤死者；我们不尊重他们。 We slander the dead; we dishonor them.
我们没有认真对待他们明确表达的动机，这些动机是为 了让任何认真想要自由公开实践信仰的人能够这样做。 We don't take seriously the motives that they pretty plainly set out for anybody who is serious about being able to practice his or her faith freely and openly.
我担心，对于任何有这种倾向的人来说，如果你想要能够这 样做，对十字军东征持否定态度就是一种忘恩负义的行为。 To the extent that you want to be able to do it, for anyone who has that orientation, to be negative about the Crusades is an act of ingratitude, I'm afraid.
这是我们的家族历史。 It's our family history.
这确实是我们的家族历史。 It is our family history.
这是我们血统的一部分；是我们理解的一部分， 无论我们是否有参加过十字军东征的直系后裔。 It's part of our lineage; it's part of our understanding, whether or not we have direct descendants who were in the Crusades or not.
这是我们共同历史的一部分。 It's part of our corporate history.
我们需要理解这一点，我们需要确保我们能区分事实与虚构。 And we need to understand that, and we need to make sure we defend against fact from fiction.
但你已经暗示了一点这个问题，我们也讨论了这是如何崩溃的。 But you've alluded a little to this, and we've talked about how this broke down.
我们对应该理解的内容有清晰的认识，但历史学家没有以这种 方式接近它，通俗作家也没有以你所呼吁的谦逊态度接近它。 We have this clear understanding of what should be understood, but historians haven't approached it, and popularists haven't approached it with the humility you called for.
这可能就是我们当前理解开始崩溃的地方。 That's probably where it started breaking down in our current understanding.
今天的文化理解确实已经崩溃了。 The cultural understanding today was really broken down.
这样说准确吗？ Is that an accurate way to say that?
无论是从宗教改革还是其他流行作品，这种观念——这种真 实的理解，历史准确的理解——究竟是从何时开始崩溃的？ Whether it be from the Reformation or other popular works, where did this idea—this true understanding, historically accurate understanding—really start breaking down?
这究竟是什么时候开始瓦解的？ When did that fall apart, really?
嗯，正如斯科特早先提到的，宗教改革是一个重要的转折点。 Well, as Scott mentioned earlier, the Reformation is a significant moment when it breaks down.
我想路德在某个时候说过——或据说说过——他宁愿要土耳其人也不要教宗。 Luther, I think at one point, said—or is said to have said—he'd rather have the Turk than the Pope.
我不确定他是这个意思，但他确实说过一些极端的话，一些拜占庭人也说过类似的话。 I'm not sure he meant it, but he said some extreme things, which some Byzantines said too.
是的，拜占庭人有时也这么说。 And Byzantines also said it sometimes, yes.
所以这部分来自宗教改革，部分来自一些——不是全部——拜占庭人对教宗的反感。 So it's partly from the Reformation, partly from the part of some—not all—Byzantines' distaste for the Pope.
这来自启蒙运动；我担心伏尔泰确实对十字军东征和基督教的其他方面说了很多谎言。 It comes from the Enlightenment; certainly, Voltaire told a lot of lies, I'm afraid, about the Crusades and about other aspects of Christianity.
那是什么时间段？ What time frame is that?
这是18世纪。 This is the 18th century.
伏尔泰是在18世纪早期，他更倾向于伊斯兰教而不是基督教作为政府宗教。 Voltaire is in the earlier 18th century, and he preferred Islam as a government religion to Christianity.
他对此非常明确。 He was quite clear about it.
但在19世纪末你也能看到这种情况。 But you also get it at the end of the 19th century.
在19世纪，有些欧洲人支持帝国主义，他们倾向 于美化十字军东征，把它们视为帝国主义活动。 In the 19th century, there were Europeans who were pro-imperialism, and they tended to glorify the Crusades, seeing them as imperialistic activities.
他们是错的；十字军东征不是帝国主义的，但他们因为误解而对它持积极态度。 They were wrong; they weren't imperialistic, but they were positive about them because of their misunderstanding.
任何反帝国主义的欧洲人都对十字军东征持否定态度，这又是一个错误的想法。 Any European who was anti-imperialistic was negative about the Crusades, again from a mistaken idea.
然后当你看到马克思主义和列宁这样极度反帝国主义的人， 他们看到19世纪对十字军东征的帝国主义理解就拒绝它。 And then when you get Marxism and people like Lenin, who were so anti-imperialistic, they looked at the 19th century's understanding of crusading as imperialistic and rejected it.
但这又一次源于对十字军东征本质的误解。 But it's, again, from a misunderstanding of what crusading is about.
它从来就不是帝国主义的。 It's never imperialistic.
我认为伏尔泰这个人物很有趣，因为他代表了一种象征。 The figure of Voltaire I think is fascinating because he represents a kind of symbol.
是的，他是个愤世嫉俗者——确实非常愤世嫉俗。 Yes, he's a cynic—really very much so.
我的意思是，这是那些不再相信基督教的人对基督教精神 财富的侵占，所以他们以他们认为是尸体的东西为食。 I mean, it's the confiscation of the spiritual riches of Christianity by men who no longer believe in Christianity, so they feed off what they regard as a corpse.
然而它是赋予生命的，我对此感到愤慨。 And yet it's life-giving, and I resent that.
需要有人回过头来发掘伏尔泰，为这些罪行审判他，认识到他是 一个多么具有象征性的人物，因为他的名字现在已经成为众多。 Somebody needs to go back and exhume Voltaire and try him for these crimes and recognize what an emblematic figure he is because his name is now legion.
有太多知识分子寄生虫在监狱左边的资本——那些 小型个人资本——的基础上推进他们自己的议程。 There are so many intellectual parasites who advance their own agendas based upon the capital—the little individual capital—on the left of the prison.
我还想提到，你知道，我们有幸在鲍勃·埃文斯餐厅共进午餐。 I want to also mention that, you know, we had the luxury of having a lunch out at Bob Evans.
是的，非常愉快的一顿。 Yes, a very pleasant one.
是的，我期待更多这样的机会。 Yeah, and I look forward to more of those.
但你当时向我指出了那些著作，你知道，最近的《十字军东征：基督教与伊斯兰教》，一位 英国历史学家，还有美国历史学家托马斯·F·马登，以及保罗·克劳福德博士的著作。 But you pointed out to me back then the works of, you know, and more recently, The Crusades: Christianity and Islam, a British historian, as well as an American historian, Thomas F. Madden, as well as the works of Dr. Paul Crawford.
这些著作都是可以接触到的；它们是可以理解的。 These sorts of things are accessible; they're understandable.
有些学者写了很多学术文章，你必须是学者才能真正欣赏，但他们也 在简化内容，这样有强烈动力的普通人也能理解并传达给其他人。 There are scholars who write a lot of scholarly articles that you have to be an academic to really appreciate, but they're also breaking it down so that ordinary people who are highly motivated can get this and give it to other people as well.
当我成为天主教徒时，你知道，马利亚、教宗、炼 狱、圣人——所有这些常见的问题，你知道的吧？ When I became a Catholic, you know, Mary, the Pope, purgatory, the saints—all of the usual issues, suspects, you know?
但我的意思是，十字军东征——这是新教徒和天主教徒 都同意的一件事：这些都是应该谴责的、可怕的事情。 But I mean, the Crusades—that's the one thing that Protestants and Catholics agreed on: these were reprehensible, horrible things.
你知道，这就像远处的一座城堡，你知道，废墟。 You know, this is like a citadel off in the distance, you know, ruins.
你知道，我甚至不需要去那里。 You know, I don't even need to go there.
当我去到那里时，我想，天啊，又一个观念要被推翻了。 And when I went there, I'm like, Oh my goodness, yet one more has to fall.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
太多人把这些当作障碍。 Too many put those up as obstacles.
你认为这会有什么影响？ What's the impact of this, do you think?
我的意思是，这可能超出了你的专业范围，但看看今天 我们的认识——我们有总统在引用一些不准确的东西。 I mean, this is taking you maybe out of your expertise, but looking forward today at our appreciation—we have presidents who are quoting some inaccurate things.
这对我们未来的关系和理解真正意味着什么？ What does that really mean in our relations and our understanding going forward?
你知道，我是说，在我们对伊斯兰的理解上，在中东的动荡上，似乎有太多问题。 You know, I mean, there seems to be so much with our understanding of Islam, so much with the turmoil in the Middle East.
我的意思是，我认为这里有太多东西真正影响着我们。 I mean, I think there's just so much there that this really influences us.
我认为这与我们保护自己和捍卫信仰的能力和意愿有关。 I think it has to do with our ability and willingness to defend ourselves and to defend our faith.
如果我们不重新发现这一点，那些不愿意保护自己、捍卫信 仰和生活方式的人，将会被那些信仰更坚定的人所压倒。 If we don't rediscover that, those who are not willing to defend themselves and their faith and their way of life are going to be run over by people who believe more strongly than they do.
公平地说，伊斯兰世界在这方面通常并不缺乏。 The Islamic world, to do them credit, is generally not deficient in that respect.
但这个谜题中的关键部分是你愿意捍卫你认为值得捍卫的东西。 But the crucial piece in the puzzle is that you're willing to defend what you regard as defensible.
越来越多的人认为基督教是不值得捍卫的。 More and more people don't see Christianity as defensible.
你也愿意渴望我们所没有的，那就是基督教社会秩序的一点点。 You're also willing to desire that which we don't have, and that is the modicum of a Christian social order.
我的意思是，这是那种即使我认识的坚定的基督徒也不渴望基督教社 会秩序的事情之一；他们只是想要将其私有化的权利——好吧，我的 家庭和我的教区——但你知道，就像给我们一个印第安保留地那样。 I mean, it's one of those things where even solid Christians I know don't desire a Christian social order; they want simply the right to kind of privatize it for themselves—okay, my family and my parish—but you know, just give us a sort of Indian reservation, as it were.
在我看来，需要的是更伟大的东西，那就是我们的信仰本质上是团体性的这种社会愿景。 It seems to me that something much greater is needed, and that is the social vision that our faith is inherently corporate.
它是公共的——公共的和团体的。 It's public—public and corporate.
是的，我想到了先知耶利米。 Yeah, I think of Jeremiah the prophet.
一位旧约学者说，最困扰耶利米的不是他的犹太同胞被流放，而是他们不知道自己被流放 了——他们如此巴比伦化，甚至不知道还有一座城市，耶路撒冷，和一座倒塌的圣殿。 One Old Testament scholar said that what bothered Jeremiah so much was not that his fellow Jews were in exile, but that they didn't know it—that they were so Babylonianized that they weren't even aware that there was a city, Jerusalem, and a temple in ruins.
是的，这是几个世纪以来半奴役地位的问题，它可以将社群压垮成一种斯德哥尔摩综合症。 Yes, and this is a problem with the demi-status over centuries that can crush communities into a sort of Stockholm syndrome.
所以他们一直被压迫，他们感到习惯——或者至少是不敢——反对这种压迫。 So they were always oppressed, and they felt comfortable—or at least were uncomfortable—objecting to it.
我认为这对今天许多半边缘化群体来说都是真实的。 I think that's true for many demi-communities today.
他们不敢反对，也学会了不要反抗，他们也不希 望其他人来反对，因为那会让我们的处境更糟。 They don't dare object to it and have learned not to dare, and they don't want people coming in to object to it either because that's going to make it really bad for us.
请继续收看方济各大学呈现的最后一个环节。 Stay with us for the last segment on Franciscan University Presents.
我叫约瑟·格雷利奇；我在方济各大学主修化学，辅修生物。 My name is Joseph Grelitsch; I'm a chemistry major and biology minor here at Franciscan University.
我喜欢这里的氛围；它完全以公教会信仰为中心。 I love the atmosphere; it's completely centered around the Catholic faith.
当我踢足球和上课时，一切都带有相同的公教会精神。 When I play soccer and I'm in classes, everything has that same Catholic attitude.
我和其他几个化学专业的学生有机会与顶尖科学家合作，以对抗被忽视的疾病。 Myself and a few other chemistry majors have the opportunity to work with top scientists in order to combat neglected diseases.
我能够通过合成化合物将我对化学的热爱和对传教工作的热爱结合起来。 I was able to connect my love for chemistry and also my love for mission work by synthesizing chemical compounds.
方济各大学在学术上追求卓越，在信仰上热忱践行公教会信仰。 Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic.
在斯图本维尔方济各大学为在职成人提供的研究生课 程中，可以选择在线学习、校园学习或两者结合。 Study online, on campus, or both in graduate programs for working adults at Franciscan University of Steubenville.
通过我们MBA课程中的道德管理方法推进你的职业发 展。通过我们的教育硕士课程让在线学习变得生动。 Advance your career with the ethical approach to management you'll find in our MBA. Bring online learning to life through our Master's in Education.
通过我们的护理硕士课程为高级护理实践做准备。 Prepare for advanced practice nursing with our Master's in Nursing.
访问franciscan.edu Check franciscan.edu
或致电800-783-6220。欢迎回到方济各大学呈现。 or call 800-783-6220. Welcome back to Franciscan University Presents.
我们一直在与教授兼作家保罗·克劳福德博士讨论十字军东征。 We've been talking to Dr. Paul Crawford, professor and author, about the Crusades.
这是我们的最后一个环节。 This is our final segment.
雷吉斯，你能开始我们的总结吗？ Regis, could you start off our kind of summations?
哦天啊，我有很多话想说，其中最重要的就是要对你的到来表示感激和感谢。 Oh gosh, there are a great many things that I'd like to say, and not the least of them is a gesture of gratitude and thanksgiving to you for having come.
你展现出一种博学的热情，我发现这种热情很有感染力。 You exhibit a learned enthusiasm which I find infectious.
我真希望能成为你的学生之一。 I'd love to have been one of your students.
当然，我会比你年长得多，但我会发现你的材料非常有感染力。 Of course, I'd be much older than you, but I would find your material highly contagious.
我被「感激」这个词打动了，因为在这最后一节课前的休息时 间，你提到——这让我难以忘怀——回到神身边时被祖先质问 的画面，他们想知道，你为推进基督教世界的事业做了什么？ I'm struck by that word gratitude because in the break before this final session, you mentioned—and it's haunted me—this image of going home to God and being sort of accosted by your ancestors who want to know, What did you do to advance the cause of Christendom?
如果你两手空空，也许你什么都没做。 And if your hands are empty, maybe you didn't do anything.
但至少在课堂上，你可以为真理作证，我想最终真理会在永恒审判的法庭前为你辩护。 But at least in the classroom, you can give witness to the truth, and the truth, in the end, I think will vindicate you before the councils of eternal judgment.
另一点：切斯特顿谈到死者的民主，我们应该给予所有 阶层中最默默无闻的人——我们的祖先——投票权。 Another point: Chesterton speaks of the democracy of the dead, that we ought to give votes to the most obscure of all classes—our ancestors.
我们信仰中的祖先——我们欠他们一些东西，一些尊重。 Our ancestors in the faith—we owe them something, some deference.
我认为通过讲述他们所做事情的真相，这就是我 们对他们记忆的致敬，我们让这记忆保持活力。 And I think by telling the truth about what they did, that I think is the tribute we pay to their memory, and we keep it alive.
在准备这个节目的过程中，我想起了一个特别的记忆， 是关于我的好朋友和导师弗里茨·威廉森所做的事。 One particular memory I have, which came to mind in the course of preparing for this show, was something my great friend and mentor, Fritz Wilhelmsen, did.
在1950年代中期布达佩斯起义发生时，他是加利福尼亚圣克拉拉大学的助理教授。 He was an assistant professor at the University of Santa Clara in California in the mid-1950s when the Budapest Uprising took place.
他向学生团体发表演讲，激励约1400名学生签名成为十字 军战士，前往匈牙利帮助他们的兄弟摆脱苏维埃暴政的枷锁。 He spoke to the student body and galvanized about 1,400 of them to sign on as crusaders to go to Hungary to help their brothers lift this yoke of Soviet tyranny.
当然，他被国务院拒绝了。 Of course, he was refused by the State Department.
他们不需要你们，艾森豪威尔政府也不会为帮助匈牙利做任何事情。 We don't need you, and the Eisenhower administration wasn't going to do a damn thing to help Hungary.
但对弗里茨来说，那是一个转折点。 But for Fritz, that was a kind of flashpoint.
这表明美国对解放这些被奴役的人民并不真正感 兴趣，这与激励我们基督教先辈的态度很不同。 It indicated that America was not really interested in liberating these captive peoples, and that's very different from the attitude that motivated our Christian forebears.
他们决心要做些什么，靠着神，他们以一种谦逊但可衡量的方式 取得了成功，使基督徒在他们信仰建立的地方过上更好的生活。 They were determined to do something, and by God, they succeeded in some modest yet measurable way to make life more hospitable to Christians in the places where, after all, their faith had been founded.
谢谢你，雷吉斯。 Thank you, Regis.
斯科特？ Scott?
这让我想起一个讲道者站起来讲道，谈论无知和冷漠，他说教区最大的两个问题是什么？ I'm reminded of the homilist who gets up to give a homily on ignorance and apathy, and he says the two biggest problems in the parish are what?
前排的那个人探过身来说，我不知道，我也不在乎。 And the fellow in the front row leans over and says, I don't know, and I don't care.
我要加上第三个，那就是忘恩负义。 I would add a third one, and that is ingratitude.
我确实认为忘恩负义是很严重的。 I do think the ingratitude is great.
我希望并祈祷无知的程度更大，我怀疑确实如此。 I hope and pray that the ignorance is far greater, and I suspect that it is.
但我认为揭穿这个误解已经成为一件大事——不仅对 我来说，对所有站在真理一边的人来说都是如此。 But debunking this myth, I think, has really become something big—not just for me, but for all people who are on the side of truth.
不仅是历史真相，还有当代的处境。 And not just historical truth, but contemporary circumstances.
历史真相本身很重要，它能澄清记录，让我们认识到这些 是防御性的战争，是正义的战争，是可以辩护的战争。 Historical truth is important in itself to clarify the record and to get it right, and to go back and to recognize these are wars of defense, that these are just wars, these are justifiable wars.
确实有滥用行为，但并不像我们在德累斯顿和其他地方所做的那样。 Abuses were committed and all of that, but not quite like what we did at Dresden and other things too.
而且我们理所当然地纪念我们的退伍军人。 And yet we celebrate our veterans rightly.
同时，我们也承认一些过分的行为。 At the same time, we acknowledge some excesses.
但塞缪尔·亨廷顿谈到伊斯兰的血腥边界，以及如何 绝大多数仍在进行的主要冲突都发生在伊斯兰国家。 But Samuel Huntington speaks of the bloody borders of Islam and how the vast majority of all of the major conflicts that still go on are in Islamic countries.
这不是巧合；这是历史事实，是我们必须面对的道德现实。 And it's not a coincidence; it's a fact of history, and it's a moral reality that we have to face.
当我们做历史研究时，我认为我们拨开常春藤，突然看到这是什么？ When we do the historical work, I think we pull back the ivy, and we suddenly are looking at what is this?
这是理解社会秩序和西方历史的基督教公教会方式的大门，而且来得正是时候。 It's the front door into a Christian Catholic way of understanding social order and Western history, and it's not coming too soon.
我认为，这种重新发现将唤醒我们回去纠正历史的愿望，同时也要纠正现在和未来。 This rediscovery, I think, is going to reawaken in us a desire to go back and get history right, but also to get the present and the future right as well.
我们需要认识到有战斗的时机和场合，也有感恩的时机和场合。 We need to recognize that there is a time and a place to fight, and there's a time and a place for gratitude as well.
你的作品——我知道迈克要提到这个——在《信仰与理性》上可以找到。 Your work—and I know Mike is going to mention this—is available on Faith and Reason.
那篇关于四个误解的文章是必读之作。 That article on the four myths is indispensable reading.
但你推荐的乔纳森·莱利-史密斯的作品，特别是《十字军东征：基督教 与伊斯兰教》这本书，我给了我19岁的孩子，他如饥似渴地读完了。 But what you've recommended in the works of Jonathan Riley-Smith, especially this book The Crusades: Christianity and Islam, I gave it to my 19-year-old, and he devoured it.
我的孩子们都在读它，所以谢谢你。 My kids are all reading it, so thank you.
继续做这项伟大的工作，让我们一起分担这个责任。 Keep up the great work, and let's just share the load.
谢谢你，斯科特。 Thank you, Scott.
保罗？ Paul?
嗯，我想我们已经涵盖了大部分主要观点。 Well, I think that we've covered most of the major points already.
重要的是要把十字军东征视为防御性活动。 It's important to think of the Crusades as defensive activities.
它们不是进攻性的；它们从来就不应该是进攻性的。 They are not offensive; they were never supposed to be offensive.
它们从来就不是为了改变信仰。 They were never supposed to be about conversion.
它们是西方对伊斯兰的第一次大规模反击。 They were the first great Western counterattack against Islam.
它们不是对伊斯兰的第一次反击，正如我们在节目前面提到的 ，拜占庭人反击过，意大利人反击过，西班牙人也反击过。 They weren't the first counterattack against Islam; as we mentioned earlier in the show, the Byzantines had fought back, the Italians had fought back, the Spanish had fought back.
但这些是西方对伊斯兰侵略的第一次大规模反击，也是第一次由教宗集中指挥的反击。 But these were the first great Western counterattacks against Islamic aggression and the first one that was centrally directed by the Pope.
对于任何相信人类无论什么信仰或种族背景都有权利对抗侵略的 人来说——如果这是你的信念，而且大多数人在被逼问时都是这 样认为的——那么我不明白你怎么能谴责十字军东征的原则。 For anyone who believes that human beings of whatever faith or ethnic background or whatever have a right to defend themselves against aggression—if that's what you believe, and most people do when pressed—then I don't see how you can condemn the principle of the Crusades.
你可以谴责在其过程中发生的这样或那样的事情，但你不能谴责其原则，因为它们 是自卫行为，也是爱的行为，就像我们说过的，十字军是代表他们试图保护的人。 You can condemn this or that thing that happened in the course of them, but you can't condemn the principle because they were an act of self-defense and an act of love, as we've also said, on behalf of the Crusaders for those that they were trying to defend.
十字军东征——我们在节目前面提到了一些没来得及跟进的内容 ——实际上只有一次真正成功的十字军东征，那就是第一次。 The Crusades—we mentioned something earlier in the show that we didn't get time to follow up on—there was really only one truly successful Crusade, and that was the first one.
第三次十字军东征也部分成功了；其余的基本上都是失败的。 The Third Crusade was also partially successful; the rest of them are pretty much failures.
作为一个整体来看，考虑到收复圣地和保护东方基督徒的目标，十字军东征确实必须 被视为失败，因为最终，公教会基督徒失去了圣地，被驱逐出他们试图保卫的领土。 As a venture considered as a whole, given its own aims of recovering the Holy Land and protecting Eastern Christians, the Crusades really have to be considered a failure because, in the end, Catholic Christians lost the Holy Land and were driven out of the territories that they had tried to defend.
但从另一个角度来说，它们也应该被视为成功，因为通过发起反击，暂时击 退伊斯兰，他们为西欧——基督教公教会的欧洲——赢得了成长的时间。 But they also need to be considered a success in the sense that by creating a counterattack, by driving Islam back for a little while, they managed to buy Western Europe—Christian Catholic Europe—time to grow up.
所以到15世纪十字军东征彻底失败时，西欧已经 强大到足以自卫并保持自己的基督教生活方式。 So that by the time the Crusades had pretty definitively failed by the 15th century, Western Europe was strong enough to defend itself and to preserve its own Christian way of life.
虽然是暂时的成功，但它们确实给了西欧生存的时间。 Temporary success, but they did give Western Europe time to survive.
而且我想，雷吉斯，你提出了我们在休息时讨论的一个非常重要的事情。 And I think, Regis, you brought up something that is very important that we were talking about during the break.
作为现代人，我们需要回顾我们的祖先，看看他们做了什么。 As modern people, we need to look back at our ancestors and look at what they did.
看看这个事实，他们放弃了他们的事业、他们的财富，在很多情况下，还有他们的生命。 Look at the fact that they gave up their careers, their treasure, and in very many cases, their lives.
我们需要认识到，作为公教会基督徒，我们相信有一天我们会见到这些人。 We need to recognize that as Catholic Christians, we believe that we will meet these people someday.
很多这些人为信仰而死，这自动使他们成为殉道者， 如果我对神学理解正确的话，这使他们成为圣人。 Very many of these people died for their faith, which makes them automatically martyrs, which makes them saints, if I understand my theology correctly.
所以如果我们有幸能上天堂，我们有一天会见到他们，他们 会告诉我们他们做了什么，并问我们为捍卫他们做了什么。 So if we are fortunate enough to get to heaven ourselves, we will meet them someday, and they will tell us what they did and ask us what we have done in their defense.
我希望我们都能对这个问题给出一个好的答案。 I hope that we all have a good answer to give to that question.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我们一直在与保罗·克劳福德博士交谈。 We've been talking to Dr. Paul Crawford.
如果你对我们今天讨论的主题——十字军东征感兴趣， 你需要访问faithandreason.com If you've been interested in the subject that we've been discussing today, the Crusades, you need to go to faithandreason.com
或者直接问我们。 or just ask us.
关于十字军东征的四个误解可以下载，或者我们会发送给你。 The four myths of the Crusade are available to download, or we'll send them to you.
我想邀请你成为方济各大学使命的一部分。 I want to invite you to be a part of Franciscan University's mission.
我们的使命是通过我们教育和培养的学生和人们来改变世界。 Our mission is to transform the world through the students and the people that we educate and form.
来我们的校园获取学位或参加我们的远程教育，或者参加我们 的暑期会议或前往圣地朝圣，成为这种教育和生活的一部分。 Come and be a part of this education and this life here on our campus by going for a degree or going online in our distance education, or join us at one of our summer conferences or pilgrimages to holy shrines like the Holy Land.
或者访问信仰与理性网站（faithandreason.com） Or go to faithandreason.com
获得你参与新福传所需的所有工具。 and be equipped with all the tools you need to be a part of the New Evangelization.
愿主保佑你，直到下次再见。 And until next time, may the Lord bless you and keep you.
要下载今天主题的免费讲义，请访问信仰与理性网 站（faithandreason.com）。 To download the free handout on today's topic, go to faithandreason.com.
发送电子邮件至present@franciscan.edu请求获取讲义。 Email your request for the handout to present at franciscan.edu
在信仰与理性网站（faithandreason.com）。 at faithandreason.com.
你也可以通过拨打888-333-0381购买方济各大学呈现 的往期节目或请求今天的免费讲义和购买往期节目。号码是888 -333-0381，或者拨打740-283-6357。 You can also purchase past episodes of Franciscan University Presents or request today's free handout and purchase past programs by calling 888-333-0381. That's 888-333-0381, or call 740-283-6357.