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再次欢迎收看EWTN读书节目。 Welcome once again to EWTN Bookmark.
我是您的主持人道格·凯克。 I'm Doug Keck, your host.
我们今天的嘉宾作家是大卫·柯里先生，他的新书是《被 提：抛开圣经的末世论》，由索菲亚研究所出版社出版。 Our guest author is Mr. David Curry, and the book is Rapture: The End Times Era That Leaves the Bible Behind, published by Sophia Institute Press.
大卫，欢迎您再次做客EWTN读书节目。 Welcome back, David, to EWTN Bookmark.
说到被提，我想很多人都知道那套《末世迷踪》系列丛 书，我注意到你的书名用了「抛开圣经」这个说法。 The Rapture, obviously, I would think many people know that there's that set of books out, The Left Behind, and I notice that you've got Leave the Bible Behind.
这是在玩拉海耶那些书的文字游戏。 It's kind of a play on the LaHaye books that are out there.
但有件事很奇怪，你在书中也谈到了这个问题，就是我们已经跨过 了世纪之交，2000年这个千禧年过去了，什么事也没发生。 But one of the things that is kind of odd is, and you address it in the book when you talk about the issue, is you know, here we are, we're past the turn of the century, the millennium period in the sense of the year 2000 went and nothing really happened.
你可能会以为所有这些关于末世的预言都会平息消失，但事实并非如此，对吧？ You would think all of these kind of predictions that swirl around the end times would have subsided and gone away, but that's not the case at all, is it?
是的，这本书实际上是源自我1998年的一些演讲，当时正是为这个话题做铺垫。 Yeah, the book is actually an outgrowth of some talks I gave in 1998. It was the whole build-up toward that.
那时，圣约瑟传播社制作了系列录音带，我告诉人们我认为2000年后 这种说法不会消退。下一个被提的重要日期是2007年，那是1967 年的四十周年，也就是以色列占领整个耶路撒冷时签订和平协议的时候。 At that point, St. Joseph's Communications did the tape series, and I told people that I did not think it would subside after 2000. The next big date for the Rapture is 2007. That's the 40-year anniversary of 1967, which is the peace accords and all that when Israel took over all of Jerusalem.
他们上一个重要日期是1988年，那是以色列建国四十周年。 The last big date for them was 1988, which was the 40-year anniversary for when Israel was founded.
当然，2000年是很多人普遍关注的一个日期。 2000, of course, was one that universally a lot of people looked at.
但我把它称为滚动式的世界末日，对吧？ But I call it the rolling end of the world, right?
你知道，他们选定一个日期并谈论这个日期，然后当 这个日期临近时，他们就会选择一个更晚的日期。 You know, they pick a date and they talk about a date, and then as that date starts to approach, they put and pick a later date.
对吧？ Right?
比如说，哈尔·林赛在《晚期大地球》中明确表示末日会发生在80年代。 So Hal Lindsey still feels, for example, in The Late Great Planet Earth, he made very clear that it was going to happen in the '80s.
当80年代什么都没发生时，他说：「我并没有错，我们仍然处在最后一代。」 When it didn't happen in the '80s, he said, I wasn't wrong; we're still in the final generation.
然后他们就倾向于选择另一个日期。 Then they tend to pick another date.
他们不得不重新计算，提出一个新的日期。 They have to go and recalculate and come up with a new date.
他们重新计算，日期越来越晚。 They recalculate, and it's getting later.
这就成了更晚期的大地球了。 It's the later great planet Earth.
就像1998年出版的那本小册子，卖出了500万册，叫《基督1988年再来的 88个理由》。当预言落空后，同一个作者又出版了《基督再来的89个理由》。 It's like in 1998, there was the little pamphlet that came out; it sold 5 million copies, 88 Reasons Why Christ Will Come Back in 1988. When it didn't happen, that same author came back with 89 Reasons Why Christ Will Come Back, and 89 Reasons Why.
所以这就这样反复循环，不知为什么人们似乎都没注意到这一点。 So it just rolls back, and people tend to not notice for some reason.
你知道，我几乎为自己的笑感到不好意思，因为当你看到这个 ，退一步想想，好吧，没有发生，然后就变成了89个理由。 You know, I almost feel bad because I chuckled over that because you look at it, and you kind of step back and say, Well, it didn't happen, and then it goes to 89 Reasons.
但是有500万人在那里——我想你在书中也提到 了这一点——这不仅仅是一个轻松阅读的问题。 But there are 5 million people out there who—and I think you make this point in this book—it's not just a question of, Oh gee, some light reading.
有人在根据这些来做出关于他们未来和生活的决定。 There are people making decisions about their future and their lives.
你在书的开头就谈到了这点，讲述了一些真实故事，说明 人们的生活是如何被这种救恩历史观所影响的，对吧？ You talk about it right in the beginning of the book and your true stories of whose lives are being shaped by this kind of view of salvation history, right?
确实如此。 Absolutely.
我在开头讲述了九个被这种观点影响的人的故事。 I have nine stories at the beginning about people whose lives have been affected by this.
其中一个是我自己的故事，讲述人们如何做出改变人生的决定，比如买房子 、不结婚、不要更多孩子，把财富用来购买圣经并藏在巴勒斯坦的山洞里。 Mine is one of them, where they made life-changing decisions to buy a house, to not get married, to not have more children, to invest their wealth in buying Bibles and hiding them in caves in Palestine.
人们基于这种错误的神学观点做出这样的决定，实在令人心碎。 These kinds of decisions that people have made based on the fact of this faulty theology, and it's heartbreaking.
现在，从某种意义上说，你追溯到了早期教父爱任纽及其后的时期。 Now, you trace this all the way back, in a sense, to the early Church Fathers, Irenaeus and forward.
但实际上，当我们今天回想起来，这些观点似乎大多是在19世纪中期开始冒出来的？ But really, it seems to be that when we think about it today, a lot of this really seemed to bubble up in the middle of the 1800s?
是的，19世纪早期。 Yeah, the early part of the 1800s.
让我们面对现实，我们有摩门教、基督复临安息日会，还有整个——我不太确定那 时的文化背景是什么——但那时约翰·达比也出现了，他提出了这个被提神学。 Let's face it, we have the Mormons, the Seventh-day Adventists, and there was a whole—I’m not sure what culture was going on during that time—but that's when John Darby came on the scene as well, and he came up with this Rapture theology.
从专业角度讲，这被称为前千禧年时代论或大灾难前千禧年时代论。 Technically, it's called premillennial dispensationalism or pre-tribulational premillennial dispensationalism.
这个术语太长了，所以我在书中不太使用它。 That's such a long term; I don't use it a whole lot in the book.
对，我觉得对于那些偶尔听到这些词却不明白含 义的公教会信徒来说，解释一下会很有帮助。 Right, and it would be good, I think, for a lot of Catholics out there who maybe once in a while hear these words get bandied about to understand what they mean.
这些词听起来比实际要复杂得多。 They sound a lot more complicated than they actually are.
你能解释一下什么是前千禧年和后千禧年吗？ Why don't you explain what it is to be premillennial and postmillennial?
这里涉及两个时间框架。 There are two time frames that are in view.
其中一个是公教会信徒很熟悉的，叫做千禧年。 The one is one that Catholics are pretty familiar with, which is called the Millennium.
这是一千年的时期，作为公教会信徒，我们遵循圣奥古斯丁的观点，他 在1500年前重申了教会的原始教导，即我们现在就处在教会时期。 It's a thousand years, and as Catholics, we follow St. Augustine, who 1,500 years ago reaffirmed the original teaching of the Church that that was the time of the Church that we are in.
这并不是严格的一千年，而是一个极其漫长的时期。 It's not exactly a thousand years long; it's an extremely long time.
在圣经中随处可见'一千年'作为象征性数字的用法。 The thousand years, everywhere in the Bible, you can find thousand years as a symbolic number.
神拥有千山之上的牲畜。 God owns the cattle on a thousand hills.
这并不是说你要出去数一千座山，然后说其他山上的牲畜都是我的。 It doesn't mean you go out and count the thousand hills and then say, All the other ones are my cattle.
它们都是神的。同样地，奥古斯丁说这一千年是一 个漫长的教会时期，这使我们成为无千禧年论者。 They're all God's. So, in the same way, Augustine said that thousand years is a long Church period, and that makes us amillennial.
我们相信我们现在就在千禧年期间，明白吗？ We believe we're in the Millennium, okay?
作为公教会信徒，而现在，那些《末世迷踪》系列的支持者们说我们还没有进入那个时期。 As Catholics, right now, what these people say with the Left Behind series is they say that we're not in that time period yet.
他们说在那个时期到来之前，基督必须再来，而那时，神会回到祂对以色列民族的计划。 That before that time period occurs, Christ has to come again, and at that time, God will revert back to His plan for ethnic Israel.
这是一种对教会的错误理解。 It's a defective view of the Church.
作为公教会信徒，我们相信世界被创造的原因就是为了教会。 As Catholics, we believe that the reason the world was even created was for the Church.
神对祂的教会有这美好慈爱的计划；祂想为祂的圣子预备一个新妇。 God had this wonderful, loving plan for His Church; He wanted a bride for His Son.
圣父想要一个教会，所以祂创造了世界为要建立教会。 The Father wanted a Church, and so He built the world in order to build the Church.
被提论者的看法并非如此。 That's not how Rapturists view it.
我们实际上只是个插曲。 We are really a parenthesis.
基督来了；弥赛亚第一次来临，他被拒绝了。 Christ came; the Messiah came the first time, and He was rejected.
结果就形成了教会，但这只是B计划。因为犹太领袖不接受基督，A 计划失败了，所以就开始了B计划，这就是我们现在所处的时期。 And as a result, the Church was formed, but it was Plan B. Plan A didn't work out because the Jewish leaders didn't accept Christ, so Plan B was started, and that's the period that we're in now.
千禧年将是神重新回到以色列民族的时期。 The Millennium is going to be a time when God goes back to ethnic Israel.
好的，教会被搁置一边，被提到天上，不再参与正在发生的事，而以色列又重新成为焦点。 Okay, the Church is put on the back burner; they're taken to heaven, they're not involved in really what's going on, and now Israel is again.
那么，教会被提到天上的那部分，就是字面意义上的被提吗？ So that part, when the Church is taken to heaven, is that the literal Rapture then?
对，这就是教会被提到天上的原因。 Right, that's why the Church is taken to heaven.
好的，为了开始这七年的时期。 Okay, in order to start this seven-year period.
现在，就在千禧年之前是这七年的试炼期，这就是他们所说的灾难，大灾难。 Now, right before the thousand years is this seven-year period of trial; that's the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation that they talk about.
好的，这个目的是要让以色列准备好在千禧年期间接受他们的弥赛亚。 Okay, the purpose of that is to get Israel ready to accept their Messiah for the thousand years.
好的，有灾前被提、灾中被提和灾后被提。 Okay, and there's the pre-trib, the mid-trib, and the post-trib.
所以那就是基督要将他的教会提走的时候。 So that's when Christ is going to Rapture His Church out of here.
有些人认为教会会在一开始就被提走，这是大多数人的看法。 Some of them think the Church will be gone right at the very beginning; that's what most of them believe.
有些人认为教会会在这里待三年半，还有些人认 为教会会在最后才被提走，必须经历整个过程。 Some think the Church will be here for three and a half years, and some think the Church will be taken right at the very end; they'll have to go through it.
对吧？ Right?
但正如你在书中所说和你的经验所示，他们中的大 多数人都相信他们会在这些事情发生之前被提。 But most of them, as you say in the book and in your experience, would believe that they would be Raptured before that would happen.
绝对是，我估计大约95%。所以这是一个很有吸引力的观点，对吧？ Absolutely, I'd say probably 95%. So that has a very appealing view then, right?
嗯，从心理学角度来说，这是一种美好、平和的生活方式。 Well, psychologically, it's a wonderful, peaceful way to live in the world.
不幸的是，这并没有帮助。 Unfortunately, it doesn't help.
你可以对发生的事情持悲观态度。 You can be a pessimist about things that happen.
比如说，当世贸中心被摧毁时，我有两个前千禧年论的朋友打电话给我，从末日 临近这个事实中得到安慰，说这就像启示录中所说的巴比伦一日之间被焚烧。 For example, when the World Trade Centers were destroyed, I had two premillennial friends call me up and take comfort in the fact that the end was coming up close, that Babylon was burned in a day, as they say in Revelation.
他们看到这个就说，看，这表明基督的被提就在眼前了。 They looked at that and they said, See, that shows that Christ's Rapture is just around the corner.
问题是，这对他们来说可能是种安慰，但对在世贸中心失去亲人的家庭来说却毫无安慰。 The trouble is, it may have been comforting to them, but it wasn't comforting to the families that lost someone in the World Trade Center.
所以，从心理上说，这很有吸引力；因为没有十字架。 So, psychologically, it's very appealing; there is no cross.
对，在你的真实故事部分，你有几个不同的故事。 Right, and in your true stories section, you have a couple of different stories.
其中一个是你小时候回到家，有一段时间以为你母 亲可能已经被提了，可以说是你错过了这趟电梯。 One where you, as a young boy, come home and think for a period of time that maybe your mother's been Raptured and that you missed the elevator, so to speak.
那是我的个人故事，实际上这种情况不止发生过一次，但我选择了我小时候的那一次。 That's a personal story of myself, and there was actually more than one case where that happened, but I chose one when I was a young boy.
书中还有其他人的故事。 And there are other people then in there as well.
我知道，其中一个故事让我印象深刻。 I know, and one of them struck me.
我记得一个年轻女子的故事与堕胎有关，她觉得自己的使命是从事维护生命的工作。 I remember a young woman who had to do with abortion, and she felt like her call was to work with pro-life.
我记得有一句话说：嗯，为什么？ I think there was a line about, Well, why?
你不需要真的为那个担心。 You don't need to be really worried about that.
你真正需要做的是出去传福音拯救灵魂，因为反正世界就要结束了。 What you really need to do is go out and evangelize for souls because the world's going to end anyway.
所以为什么要做呢？ So why?
就像那句话说的：为什么要在沉船上擦铜器呢？ That phrase was like, Why polish the brass on a sinking ship?
世界正在沉沦；基督随时会回来把你带离这里。 The world is going down; Christ is going to come back any moment to take you out of it.
你为什么要担心堕胎的问题呢？ Why do you want to worry about abortion?
有趣的是，从新教的角度来看，这就像是在新教光谱的另 一端，与那种极度注重社会正义的方法完全相反，对吧？ It's interesting because, in some ways, from a Protestant perspective, that's like the other extreme of the incredibly social justice-oriented approach that you find on the other side of, let's say, the Protestant spectrum, right?
对。 Right.
是的，实际上，这种神学对那些厌倦了被告知要喂养饥饿的人 、给赤身的人穿衣服、探访监狱里的人的人来说很有吸引力。 Yeah, in fact, this theology is very attractive to someone that's tired of being told to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, and to visit those in prison.
如果你厌倦了这种福音——虽然如你所说，在社会福音中可能会走向极端， 但这确实是我们在教会听到的福音的一部分，也是我们的责任的一部分。 If you're tired of that Gospel, which, as you say, can be taken to the extreme in the social Gospel, but it is part of the Gospel that we hear in the Church and is part of our responsibility.
如果你厌倦了听这些，这就是一个很好的去处，因为你永远不会听到这些，对吧？ If you're tired of hearing that, this is a wonderful place for you to go because you'll never hear that, right?
因为那不是我们的责任。 Because that's not our responsibility.
我们的责任只是向那些随沉船下沉的人扔出救生衣。 Our responsibility is just to throw life jackets out to people that are going down with a sinking ship.
对，这并不是说要对人不基督徒化或不帮助人，但那不是优先事项。 Right, that's not to be un-Christian to people and not help people, but that's not the priority.
拯救他们的灵魂更重要。 It's more important that I save their souls.
对，从公教会的角度来看，这又是一个中间立场，这两方面都是基督徒生活的重要部分。 Right, and from a Catholic perspective, it would be, again, that kind of middle ground where both of those are important aspects of the Christian life.
对，道格，这绝对是真的。 Right, and Doug, that's absolutely true.
新教有一个有趣的现象，就是当它离开训导权，离开教会及其指 导，它的活生生的指导时，就倾向于朝这样或那样的方向分裂。 One interesting thing about Protestantism was when it leaves the Magisterium, when it leaves the Church and its guidance, its living guidance, it tends to splinter one way or the other.
它无法保持教会一直以来所持守的中间立场，因为它脱离了锚——也就是彼得。 It can't keep the middle ground that the Church has always held because it gets detached from the anchor, which is Peter.
完全正确，还有训导的教导。 Exactly right, and the Magisterial teachings.
书中另一个有趣的点——我刚才听你说话时在想——就是你提到大 多数参与这种千禧年主义、被提论的人会以某种方式称自己为福音 派或基要主义者，而且他们中的一些人会拒绝使用新教徒这个词。 The other thing that was interesting in the book—I was just thinking while you were talking about that—was you talk about most of the people who would be involved, let's say, in this kind of millennialism, the Rapture orientation, would describe themselves in some fashion as evangelicals or fundamentalists, and that some of them would reject the term Protestant.
是的，我在成长过程中并不认为自己是新教徒。 Yes, I did not consider myself a Protestant growing up.
我认为自己——你知道，我大约40、41岁时才加入教会。嗯哼。 I considered myself—and I came into the Church, as you know, at about 40, 41. Mm-hmm.
我不认为自己是新教徒的原因，也是我大多数朋友不认为自己是新 教徒的原因，是因为新教是在16世纪由路德和加尔文开始的。 And the reason I didn't consider myself a Protestant, and most of my friends didn't consider themselves Protestants, is that Protestants started in the 1500s with Luther and Calvin.
那就是宗教改革。 That was the Protestant Reformation.
我们认为自己是从一开始就存在的真教会，在公元3 00年君士坦丁使基督教合法化时不得不转入地下。 We viewed ourselves as the true Church that had been around since the very beginning and had to go underground in 300 when Constantine made it legal to be a Christian.
在那时，我们认为公教会是作为国家的一部分而形成的，他们开始杀害我们。 At that point, we felt that the Catholic Church was formed as part of the state, and they started killing us.
现在，撇开这个想法完全没有历史证据或可信度的事实不谈；根本没有证据支持。 Now, forget about the fact that there's absolutely no historical evidence or credibility to that idea; there's no evidence for it.
但那就是我们所相信的，所以我们不喜欢新教徒这个词。 That's what we believed, so we didn't like the term Protestant.
那就把我们推迟了11个世纪。 That put us 11 centuries too late.
听到这很有趣，因为我从未从这个角度想过新教徒。 It's interesting hearing that because I never thought of that in terms of Protestants.
你知道，我听说过耶和华见证人或者摩门教也是这样的方式——某种意 义上就是大背教的观念——但从某种意义上说很相似，是同样的方式。 I've heard, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses kind of approach that way or even Mormonism approach that way—this idea of the Great Apostasy, in a sense—but it's very similar in the sense that it is that same kind of approach.
好的，我们正在与大卫·柯里交谈，他的书是《被提：抛开圣经的末世论》。 Okay, we're speaking with David Curry, and his book is Rapture: The End Times Era That Leaves the Bible Behind.
这本书由索菲亚研究所出版社出版。 It is published by Sophia Institute Press.
短暂休息之后，我们将继续与大卫的对话。 Much more with David right after this quick break.
愿荣耀归于父、子、圣灵，起初如何，现在如何，永远如何，世世无尽。 Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.
阿们。 Amen.
非常感谢您继续收看读书节目，我们的嘉宾是《 被提：抛开圣经的末世论》的作者大卫·柯里。 And thank you so much for staying with us here on Bookmark with David Curry, the author of Rapture: The End Times Era That Leaves the Bible Behind.
被提确实是如今任何关注基督信仰的人都会注意的词。 Rapture is certainly a word that anyone pays attention to in their Christian faith these days.
我们从拉海耶的书中了解了很多；这些书非常非常受欢迎。 There's quite a bit we know from the LaHaye books; they're very, very popular.
在销售榜单上可能就排在哈利波特后面某个位置。 It's probably right there behind Harry Potter somewhere on the sales list.
你对它如此受欢迎而且持续受欢迎感到惊讶吗？ Were you surprised that it would be so popular and continue to be so popular?
我并不惊讶，道格。 I was not, Doug.
在1970年代初哈尔·林赛的书出版时我还是个青少年， 如果我没记错的话，那是美国有史以来最畅销的宗教小说。 I was a teenager in the early 1970s when Hal Lindsey's book came out, which, if I am not mistaken, is the number one religious fiction of all time in America.
现在，我认为《末世迷踪》系列已经让它相形见绌 了，但在《末世迷踪》系列出版之前，它是... Now, I think the Left Behind series is leaving that in the dust, but until the Left Behind series came out, it was...
哈尔在写作时认为这是非虚构作品吗？ Did Hal think it was non-fiction at the time when he wrote it?
你知道，人们问我这是非虚构还是虚构作品，我说这是虚构的。 You know, people ask me if it's non-fiction or fiction, and I say it's fiction.
好的，让我们谈谈你是如何安排这本书的结构的。 Okay, let's talk about how you laid out this book.
你写了很好的导言，我们来读一些其中的引述。 You've got a fine introduction, and we'll read some quotes from it.
应该说是斯科特·哈恩写的序言，他对这部作品给予了极高的评价。 A forward, I should say, by Scott Hahn, who's quite effusive in his praise of this work.
你是如何决定这本书的布局的？ How did you decide to lay this book out?
你介绍了什么是被提，术语和基本规则，这本书究竟是为谁设计的？ You kind of go through what is the Rapture, terms and ground rules, and who is this really formatted and designed to reach?
好的，道格，已经有一些关于被提或被遗落的书是针对公教 会读者的，我觉得这很好，因为公教会信徒需要了解这些。 Okay, Doug, there are some books out already on the Rapture or being left behind that I felt targeted Catholic audiences, and I thought that was great because Catholics need to know about this.
但我想要做的是把论述带给那些涉猎这些内容的公教会信徒——换句话说，就是 那些正在阅读《末世迷踪》系列并在不知不觉中开始接受其中一些神学观点的公 教会信徒——或者那些考虑加入教会但首先需要处理这个被提问题的新教徒。 But what I was trying to do was bring the argument to either Catholics that are dabbling in it—in other words, a Catholic that's reading the Left Behind series and is starting to absorb some of the theology there without even realizing it, which is what happens—or Protestants that are thinking of coming into the Church but have to deal with this Rapture issue first.
在我能成为公教会信徒之前，在我能认真考虑成为公教会信徒之前，我 必须处理这个神学问题，因为我不能既是公教会信徒又坚持这种观点。 Before I could become a Catholic, before I could even seriously consider being a Catholic, I had to deal with this theology because I couldn't be a Catholic and hold on to it.
所以要么这个是真的，要么那个是真的，这就是我心目中的另 一类读者：那些思想开放到能说'你知道吗？'的新教徒。 So one was true, or the other was true, and so that was the other audience that I had in mind: Protestants that are open-minded enough to say, You know what?
我要好好看看这是否是真的。 I'm going to look at this and see if it's true.
所以我从一些真实的故事开始——九个我认识的 人——讲述这种观点如何影响了他们的生活。 So I started with some stories of true-life people—nine people that I've known—how this has affected their lives.
然后我总结了被提论者的信仰，因为有些人可能甚 至不知道《末世迷踪》系列背后的含义是什么。 Then I went with just a summary of what the Rapturists believe because some people may not really even know what is behind these Left Behind series.
所以我讲述了这些。 So I went through that.
然后我觉得直接跳入圣经讨论还为时过早；我需要先给人们一些基本规则。 Then I felt like it was a little too early to jump into the Bible; I needed to give some people some ground rules.
被提论是从一些非常启示性和预言性的经文中提炼出来的神学，这是一种很特殊的经文。 The Rapture is pulled out of the theology that is pulled out of some passages that are very apocalyptic and very prophetic, and that's a very special kind of passage.
所以我觉得我们需要一些基本规则，于是我制定了九条基 本规则，用于我们作为圣经学习者解读这类文献时使用。 So I felt like we needed to get some ground rules, so I laid down nine ground rules about reading this kind of literature when we interpret it as Bible students.
从这点出发，我认为任何新教徒都应该能接受并同意这九条基本规则。 From there, I think any Protestant should be able to take those nine ground rules and agree with them.
这就是我的目标：从圣经中提取这些基本规则，而不 是说，这是基本规则是因为教会说它是基本规则。 That was my goal: to take those ground rules out of the Bible, to not say, This is a ground rule because the Church says it's a ground rule.
就只是说，这是基本规则，这是原因。 It's just, this is a ground rule, and here's why.
你可以看到这就是圣经如何使用圣经的方式。 You can look and see that's how the Bible used the Bible.
所以我试图面向那些接受圣经为权威但对教会还不太确定的读者。 So I was trying to go to the audience of someone that was accepting the Bible as their authority and wasn't so sure about the Church.
从那里开始，我说，好的，让我们来看看被提论者使用的每一段经文。 From there, I said, Okay, let's just go look at every passage that the Rapturists use.
我从但以理书开始。 I start with Daniel.
大多数公教会信徒不知道那是最重要的经文。 Most Catholics aren't familiar that that's the most important passage.
他们谈论帖撒罗尼迦书，或者谈论启示录，或者谈论橄榄山讲论。 They talk about Thessalonians, or they talk about Revelation, or they talk about the Olivet Discourse.
最重要的经文是但以理书。 The most important passage is Daniel.
为什么？ Why?
因为这是达比说服使他成为被提论者的经文。 Because that's the one that Darby said convinced him to be a Rapturist.
这是圣经中唯一提到七年大灾难的经文。 It's the only passage in the Bible that gives you a seven-year Tribulation.
明白吗？ Okay?
但以理书第9章有一个预言，讲到但以理的七十个七，人们 熟悉但以理的最后一个七，最后的一周，或第七十个七。 Daniel chapter 9 has an oracle in there where there are the 70 weeks of Daniel, and people are familiar with the last week of Daniel, the final week, or the 70th week.
达比把第七十个七放到未来，这就是他得出七年大灾难的地方。 Darby took that 70th week and put it into the future, and that's where he comes up with that seven-year Tribulation.
现在，达比有一个主要问题，大多数被提论者不熟悉，大多数公教会信徒也不知道。 Now, there's a major problem that Darby has that most Rapturists are not familiar with, and most Catholics don't know either.
我听过公教会信徒谈论即将到来的七年大灾难。 I've heard Catholics talk about the coming seven-year Tribulation.
问题是，早期教会的大多数人并不认为这是将要来临的七年大灾难 ；他们认为这是七十年的圣约过渡期——从旧约到新约的过渡。 Well, the problem is the majority of the early Church did not consider it to be a seven-year Tribulation to come; they considered it to be seven decades of covenantal transition—the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.
在这个过渡期中有道成肉身、受难，以及所有那些事件。 In that transition was the Incarnation, was the Passion, and all of those events.
这就是公元70年出现的原因。 That's where 70 AD shows up.
是的，没错。 Yeah, exactly.
好的，所以这就是但以理书第9章所说的七十年或七个十年过渡期的高潮，就是圣殿被毁。 Okay, so that was the culmination of the 70 years or seven decades of transition, which is in that Daniel 9 passage, and it's the destruction of the Temple.
好的，所以这是从基督诞生左右到圣殿被毁的时期——从基 督诞生的公元前4年到圣殿开始遭受攻击的公元67年。 Okay, so it's from Christ's birth, approximately, to the destruction of the Temple—from about 4 BC when Christ was born to 67 AD, which is when the assault on the Temple started.
所以如果你看但以理书第9章，他说的就是这七十年期间。 So that 70-year period, if you look at Daniel 9, that's what he's talking about.
哦，好的，早期教会的大多数人都同意这种解释，对吧？ Oh, okay, and the majority of the early Church agreed, right?
你说大多数是因为实际上确实有一些公教会早期教父持有不同的观点。 And you say majority because the reality is there were some Catholic early Church Fathers who had differing opinions.
确实如此，甚至有一些圣人在不同时期也有不同的看法。 Absolutely, even some saints who had different views at different times.
道格，作为公教会信徒的一个美妙之处在于，只要你遵循 训导权所规定的范围，你就可以按照圣经的指引行事。 One of the wonderful things about being Catholic, Doug, is that you have the option to follow Scripture as long as you stay in the realm of what the Magisterium has laid down.
所以，让圣经引导你前行。 So, follow Scripture where it takes you.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
所以我真的不会和那些对我说'戴夫，我不同意你对但 以理书的解释，这是我的看法'的公教会信徒争论。 And so I don't have really an argument with the Catholics that say to me, Dave, I don't agree with your interpretation of Daniel; this is what I believe.
但我试图说明的是，任何一种公教会的观点都比 被提论者的观点更可信，这就是我要论证的。 But what I try to lay out is that any one of the Catholic views is more credible than the Rapturist view, and that's what I was arguing for.
这正是我要问你的。 That's what I was going to ask you.
对于那些说'嗯，你知道的，戴夫，我是公教会信徒，我某种程度上确实相信被提，你知 道，我相信这些事情是因为它们给我安慰或者对我来说很有道理'的人，你会怎么说？ What do you say to someone who says, Well, you know, Dave, I'm Catholic, and I do believe in the Rapture in some way, you know, and I believe in these other things because I find comfort or they make sense to me?
作为公教会信徒，这样有问题吗？ Is there a problem with that as a Catholic?
是的，特别是关于被提的问题，确实有问题。 Yes, specifically with the Rapture, there is.
因为它做的事，道格，就是把第二次降临分成了两次。 Because what it does, Doug, is it takes the Second Coming and splits it into two.
换句话说，按照被提论者的教导，你不再只有一个第二次降临。 In other words, you no longer have a Second Coming as the Rapturists teach it.
按照被提论者的教导，现在不再是第二次降临了；实际上是第二次降临和第三次降临。 As the Rapturists teach it, it's now no longer a Second Coming; it's really a Second Coming and a Third Coming.
现在，他们通过说基督第一次并没有真正降临到地上来回避这个问题。 Now, they get around that by saying that Christ doesn't actually touch down the first time.
好的。 Okay.
他只是从上面经过；他经过，我们在空中与他相遇。 He just kind of passes over; he passes over, and we go meet him in the air.
但实际上，归根结底就是还有两次降临，而教会一直说只有一次降临。 But really, what it boils down to is two comings to come, and the Church has always said that there's only one more coming.
现在，这就导致了不止一次审判，而教会一直很明确：只有一次审判。 Now, what that leads to then is more than one judgment, and the Church has always been very clear: there's only one more judgment.
我们都有各自的个别审判，但那普遍审判将是启示录所说的白色大宝座审判。 We all have our particular judgment, but that general judgment will be the great white throne that Revelation talks about.
这样的审判只有一次，对吧？ There's only one of those, right?
如果你开始把第二次降临分成两次，你最终就会有不止一次审判。 And if you start to split the Second Coming into two, you end up with more than one judgment.
一些被提论者甚至有多达四次审判。 Some Rapturists have as many as four.
哇，好的。 Wow, okay.
这就表明，一旦你开始了，它可以发展到任何方向，对吧？ It just goes to show, once you get started, it can go anywhere, right?
它可以发展到任何方向。 It can go anywhere.
你几乎可以找到任何东西来支持任何人可能想出来的特定理论。 You can almost find anything to support any particular theory one might come up with.
没错，这就是为什么你必须再次回到训导权。 That's right, which is why, once again, you've got to come back to the Magisterium.
嗯，在看这些和阅读时有趣的是，意识到你有但以理 书或帖撒罗尼迦书，这就像是在挑选启示录一样。 Well, what's interesting in looking at it and reading it is to realize how you've got Daniel or Thessalonians, and it's kind of like picking revelations.
这不像你去找一本书，就像我猜有些人心里想的那样，哦，这些都是来自启示录。 It's not like you go and there's the book, like some people have in their mind, I guess, Oh, this is all out of the book of Revelation.
他们说是在解释启示录，但实际上并不是。 They just are interpreting the book of Revelation, but they're really not.
正如你所说，他们是从启示录中抽取一些内容，这里一 点，那里一点——就是这种拼凑片段组建理论的想法。 They're pulling some out of Revelation, as you said, a little bit out of here, a little bit out of there—that whole idea of just pulling pieces together and assembling a theory.
没错，这就是我要强调的主要观点之一。 Exactly, and that's one of the major points I'm trying to make.
如果圣保罗相信这个，如果圣彼得相信这个，如果基督教导过这个，如果这是原始信仰宝库 的一部分，为什么我们找不到任何一段经文同时教导这两次降临——被提和第二次降临？ If St. Paul had believed this, if St. Peter had believed this, if Christ had taught this, if this was a part of the original deposit of faith, why can we not find any one passage that teaches both comings—the Rapture and the Second Coming?
为什么我们找不到任何一段经文谈到这种分离？ Why can we not find any passage that talks about the split?
他们所做的就是说这些经文讲的是这个，那些经文讲的是 那个，但没有任何经文谈到这种分离或两次降临的联系。 All they do is they say these passages are speaking of this, and these passages are speaking of the other, but there's no passage that talks about the split or the two comings together.
实际上是把它们联系在一起。 It actually pulls them together.
我知道的一件事是，我猜斯科菲尔德这个名字在这里很重 要，因为我猜是他编写或以他的名字命名的研读版圣经。 One of the things I know, I guess Schofield's a name that's very important in this because I guess the study Bible that he authored or carries his name.
有趣的是很多人使用那个版本，然后他们看注释，而这些注释似乎支持那种解释方法。 The interesting thing is a lot of people use that, and then they go to the notes, and the notes seem to support that approach.
但是——我想我在其他节目中听你提到过，人们很容易把注释当作圣经的一部分来读。 But—and I think I've heard you on other programs mention the idea that it is easy for people to read the notes as if the notes were part of the Scripture.
通过把注释放在页面底部，给了它们某种特殊的额外权威性。 By having it at the bottom of the page, it gives them a sort of extra special authority.
这些注释都是从一个很特定的角度写的，所以当人 们读了经文后再看注释，注释就支持那种解释。 They are all written from a very specific slant, so somebody reads the passage and then goes to the notes, and the notes support that interpretation.
他们说，好吧，这很明显... They say, Well, it's clearly...
部分原因是因为耶稣的一些话很难理解。 and part of it is because some of Jesus' statements were hard to understand.
所以你读福音书的那部分时就会想，天哪，他那句话是什么意思？ So you read that part of the Gospel and you go, Golly, what did he mean by that?
彼得说过这个，对吧？ Peter said that, right?
没错。 Exactly.
所以当你看到注释，它把内容解释得非常非常简单，你就会说，哦，现在我明白了！ And so then you go down to the notes, and it's explained for you very, very simply, and you go, Oh, now I got it!
现在我明白耶稣的意思了。 Now I understand what Jesus meant.
唯一的问题是，你知道，这可能不是耶稣真正的意思。 The only trouble is, you know, that may not be what Jesus did mean.
现在让我说说，因为我们谈到这本书，斯科特·哈恩是这样说的。 Now let me just say, because we talk about the book, Scott Hahn talks about it.
他说，我倾向于把它描述为启示性文本和预言性预言的实质总汇。 He said, I'm tempted to describe it as a virtual summa of apocalyptic texts and prophetic prophecies.
在《被提》中，柯里为我们提供了基要主义新教 徒通常解释为末世预言的圣经文本的全面汇集。 In Rapture, Curry gives us a comprehensive collection of the biblical texts that fundamentalist Protestants have commonly interpreted as end times predictions.
这本书有500页吗？ And this is what, is there 500 pages in this book?
我不想吓跑人，但这里确实有很多内容。 I don't want to scare people off, but there's a lot of material here.
他接着说，作者对每段经文进行理性和冷静的分析，纠正错误， 建立合理的解释范围，所有这些都与公教会的活传统相和谐。 And he goes on to say he then subjects each passage to sane and sober analysis, correcting errors along the way and establishing a range of reasonable interpretations, all in harmony with the Catholic Church's living tradition.
所以你是这样做的，为了让人们理解，你列出每个论点，然后从两个角度来处 理它，说明为什么人们最初会支持这个论点，最终为什么这个论点站不住脚。 So you go, just so that people understand, you take every argument, you put it up there, and then deal with it right from both perspectives to show why people would support this argument initially and ultimately why that argument falls.
没错，然后我试图更进一步说，作为公教会信徒，我们对此可以采取什么样的观点？ Exactly, and then I try to go one more step and say, as Catholics, what's one possible view that we can take on that?
我很小心地不说这是唯一的公教会观点，但我确实试图提供一个替代方案。 I try to be very careful not to say that this is the only Catholic view, but I do try to give an alternative.
我觉得如果你摧毁了他们理解的那个体系，却不给他 们一个好的公教会替代方案，这对人们没有帮助。 I feel like there's no help to people if you destroy the one system that they understand unless you give them a good Catholic alternative.
对，就像我们刚才说的，基要主义的倾向是把每段圣经文本孤立地 解读，这与公教会将旧约和新约视为应验关系的倾向是相对的。 Right, and here, as we were just talking before, the fundamentalist tendency, however, as opposed to the Catholic tendency, which is to read the Old Testament and the New Testament in fulfillment, is to read each biblical text in isolation from the other texts.
当然，问题是这些文本本身并不是为这种阅读方式而写的。 The problem, of course, is that the texts themselves are not written to be read this way.
你必须明白，当耶稣说话时，他是在对那些以旧约为民族历史 、宗教历史、音乐、文化的人说话——这就是他们的一切。 You've got to understand that when Jesus spoke, he was speaking to people for whom the Old Testament was their national history, their religious history, their music, their culture—it was their everything.
他们理解这些，他就是在这样的环境中说话的。 And they understood it, and he spoke in that milieu.
现在，这里的威胁是什么？ Now, what's the threat here?
现代主义这个词在你的书中出现了。 The word modernism pops up in your book.
这有点不寻常。 It's kind of unusual.
我们讲述了所有这些文本，早期教父和达比派、米勒派的历史，以及许多 公教会信徒不太熟悉的人物，然后是现代主义——19世纪之交的异端。 We're going through all these texts, all this history of the early Church Fathers and the Darbyites and the Millerites and all these people that a lot of Catholics wouldn't be as familiar with here and there, and then modernism—the heresy from the turn of the 19th century.
为什么现代主义和诺斯底主义会成为问题？ Why is modernism something—and Gnosticism?
在你看来，为什么这些问题对今天的公教会信徒来说与被提有关？ Why are those issues for Catholics today in reference to the Rapture, in your mind?
嗯，诺斯底派是一群否认超自然能够影响物质的人，他们有自己的理论体系。 Well, the Gnostics were a group of people that denied that the supernatural could impinge on the material, and they had their own way of coming up with that.
但我同意一些教宗的说法，认为现代主义异端，也就是现在仍存在 于公教会中的异端，只是那个古老的诺斯底异端的重现和复活。 But I agree with some of the popes that have said that the modernist heresy, which is still with us in Catholicism, is just a recreation, a resurrection of that ancient heresy, Gnosticism.
是的，诺斯底主义通过现代主义异端又与我们同在了。 Yeah, Gnosticism is with us again in the modernist heresy.
道格，举个例子，这个现代主义异端在弥撒中所做的是，弥撒的两个部分 是圣道礼仪和圣祭礼仪，他们试图在这两个部分中都剔除超自然的因素。 And what that modernist heresy does, for example, Doug, in the Mass is that the two parts of the Mass are the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and they try to strip out the supernatural on both halves.
现在，我们大多数人都熟悉他们是如何对待圣体的，他们说这只是一个象征。 Now, most of us are familiar with how they try to do it with the Eucharist, and they say it's only a symbol.
是的，它是一个象征，但它远不止是一个象征。 Well, it is a symbol, but it's much more than a symbol.
它是一个圣事，这意味着它就是它所象征的，它有能力给予我们它所象征的。 It's a sacrament, which means it is what it symbolizes, and it has the power to give us what it symbolizes.
但他们在圣道礼仪中也做同样的事，他们试图把圣言当作， 嗯，只是一本人写的书，或说其中有错误，诸如此类的事。 But they do the same thing in the Liturgy of the Word, and what they do is they try to take the Word and say, Well, it's just a human book, or There are errors in it, and those kinds of things.
当这种异端进入教会时，前千禧年主义或这种被提观念就会冒出来，这是为什么？ When that heresy comes into the Church, premillennialism or this Rapture idea pops its head up because?
我认为这是普通公教会信徒看到自己的信仰受到攻击时的一种反应。 I think it's because of a reaction of the average Catholic that sees his faith under assault.
好的，所以这是对那种情况的反应？ Okay, so it's a reaction to that?
这是对现代主义的反应。 It's a reaction to that modernism.
坐在教堂长椅上的人说，你知道吗？ The guy sitting in the pew says, You know what?
我的神父告诉我说... My priest is telling me that...
让我们举一个很简单的例子：鱼口中的钱币。 Let's just take a real simple one: the coin in the mouth of the fish.
我的神父在讲道中告诉我说这事实际上并没有发生 ，这没有任何目的，这只是教会后来加上去的。 My priest is telling me in a sermon that that really didn't happen, that there was no purpose to it, and that was just added by the Church later.
这里有一个坐在长椅上的人。 And here’s a man sitting in the pew.
他可能无法很好地解释他的信仰，但他经历过基督。 He may not be able to explain his faith very well, but he has experienced Christ.
他认识基督；基督在他的生命中，他对自己的信仰充满热情。 He knows Christ; Christ is in his life, and he's excited about his faith.
他说，这对我来说听起来不对。 He says, That doesn't sound right to me.
这感觉不对劲。 It smells off.
我不能和神父争论，但这感觉不对劲。 I can't argue with my priest, but it smells off.
最终这个人会去一个接受超自然的地方，那就是前千禧年派那里。 And what that man will eventually do is go play someplace where the supernatural is accepted, and that's at the premillennial scale.
好的，很好。 Okay, very good.
我们时间到了，大卫。 We are just out of time, David.
祝这部作品成功，我们期待将来看到你更多的作品。 Good luck with this work, and we look forward to more work from you in the future.
谢谢。 Thank you.
与大卫·柯里的时间到此结束，他的著作《被提：抛开圣经的末世论》 由索菲亚研究所出版社出版，可以通过EWTN宗教目录在全国购买。 Just out of time with David Curry, the book Rapture: The End Times Era That Leaves the Bible Behind, published by Sophia Institute Press, available nationally through EWTN's Religious Catalog.
值得一读！ Worth a look!
下次也请继续收看EWTN读书节目。 Check us out next time as well right here on EWTN's Bookmark.
如果您对本节目刚才讨论的这本书感兴趣，请拨打EWTN宗教目录 电话1-800-854-6316。800-854-6316。 If you are interested in the book just discussed on this program, call the EWTN Religious Catalog at 1-800-854-6316. 800-854-6316.