欢迎回到无耻教皇党。 Welcome back to Shameless Popery.
我是乔·赫施迈尔。 I'm Joe Heschmeier.
如果你问基督徒大公教会是否出现在圣经中，你可能会得到两个答案。 If you were to ask Christians whether or not the Catholic Church makes an appearance in the Bible, you're probably going to get two answers.
非公教会的基督徒，比如新教徒，会说不；大公教会在新约时代并不存在。 Non-Catholic Christians, like Protestants, are going to say no; the Catholic Church didn't exist at the time of the New Testament.
所以我们要么在圣经中看不到大公教会的出现，要么 如果看到了，也是预言中警告我们的基督的教会。 So either we don't see any appearances of the Catholic Church in the Bible, or if we do, it's in prophetic passages warning us about the Church of Christ.
比如启17章中的巴比伦大淫妇。另一方面，天主教徒会说不，那不是真的。 You know, for instance, the Whore of Babylon in Revelation chapter 17. Catholics, on the other hand, are going to say no, that's not true.
教会在新约的每一页都有。 The Church is found all over the pages of the New Testament.
只是过了几十年，新约中的教会才开始更广泛地被称为大公教会。 It's just going to be a few decades before the Church of the New Testament starts being known more popularly as the Catholic Church.
但如果我告诉你，耶稣基督和大公教会实际上都在旧约的 一段经文中被预言了，而许多基督徒忽略了这段经文呢？ But what if I were to tell you that both Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church are actually prophesied in the Old Testament in a passage that many Christians overlook?
如果我告诉你，这段经文实际上是解决天主教徒、新教徒、基 督复临安息日会和摩门教徒之间一些最大神学争议的关键呢？ And what if I were to tell you that this passage is actually the key to settling some of the biggest theological controversies between Catholics, Protestants, Seventh-day Adventists, and Mormons?
所以今天，我想向你介绍这段经文，然后我想考虑一些现代怀 疑论者、摩门教徒、安息日会和时代论者误解这预言的方式。 So today, I want to introduce you to that passage, and then I want to consider some of the ways that this passage is misread as the prophecy is misunderstood by modern skeptics, by Mormons, by Adventists, and by dispensationalists.
那么，事不宜迟，我在谈论什么预言呢？ So without further ado, what prophecy am I talking about?
我说的是但以理书第二章的预言。现在，稍微提醒一下，以 防你不记得，尼布甲尼撒王做了一个梦，这梦很难解释。 I'm talking about the prophecy of Daniel chapter 2. Now, as a little bit of a refresher in case you don't remember it, King Nebuchadnezzar has a dream, and this dream is hard to interpret.
他自己的人无法解释，甚至不知道梦是什么。 His own men are unable to interpret it; they don't even know what the dream is.
但以理能够成功地解释，梦是一个像偶像的像，像的顶部是金，然后是银，然后是铜。 Daniel is able to successfully interpret it, and the dream is of a statue, something like an idol, and an idol in which the top part is gold, and then silver, and then bronze.
刚看完奥运会的你们，这可能感觉很熟悉。 Those of you who just watched the Olympics, this may feel very familiar.
然后底部是铁，然后是铁和泥。 And then the bottom part is iron and then iron and clay.
正如但以理解释的，头是精金，胸膛和膀臂是银，肚腹和腰是铜，腿是铁，脚是半铁半泥。 As Daniel explains, the head is of fine gold, the breast and arms are of silver, the belly and thighs are of bronze, the legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
然后他解释说，这指的是四个相继的国。 Now, he then explains that this refers to four successive kingdoms.
第一个，他告诉我们是什么：就是尼布甲尼撒王自己的国，巴比伦帝国。 The first one, he tells us what it is: it's King Nebuchadnezzar's own kingdom, the Babylonian Empire.
然后是继后的国，就是在他之后兴起的国——那是 银的国——然后是第三个铜的国和第四个铁的国。 And then it's going to refer to the successive kingdom, a kingdom that will arise after him—that's the kingdom of silver—and then a third kingdom of bronze and a fourth kingdom of iron.
很直观，对吧？ Pretty straightforward, right?
那么这是什么意思呢？ So what does this mean?
但以理书第二章的这四个国是什么呢？好吧，正如我所说，第一个已经 给了我们，古代的犹太人和早期的基督徒很容易就知道另外三个是谁。 What are these four kingdoms of Daniel chapter 2? Well, the first one, as I say, has already been given to us, and the ancient Jews and the early Christians had no trouble figuring out who the other three were.
正如约翰·伯格斯马和布兰特·皮特里指出的，从第二圣殿时期开始——也就是 基督的时代，稍早一些，然后到公元70年——那是第二圣殿时期，但以理书第 二章中金属像所象征的四个国一直被解释为四个连续的帝国：巴比伦、玛代波斯 帝国（就是玛代人和波斯人共同统治），然后是希腊人，最后是罗马人。 As John Bergsma and Brant Petrie point out, since the time of the Second Temple period—so this is around the time of Christ, a little before, and then up to 70 AD—that's the Second Temple period, the four kingdoms symbolized by the metallic image in Daniel 2 have been interpreted as four consecutive empires: Babylon, the Medo-Persian Empire (this is the Medes and the Persians kind of co-ruling), then the Greeks, and then the Romans.
值得注意的是，他们提到这在所谓的犹太启示文学中也是如此，比如《以 斯拉四书》和《巴录二书》——其他预言文本，我们不认为是正典，但仍 然重要，因为它们让我们了解当时的犹太人如何理解但以理书第二章。 Significantly, they mention that this is true also in what's called Jewish apocalyptic literature, like 4th Ezra and 2nd Baruch—other prophetic texts, ones that we don't consider canonical but are still important because they give us insight into how Jews of the time were understanding what Daniel 2 was about.
它们指向巴比伦、玛代波斯、希腊和罗马，罗马是第四个帝国。 They pointed towards Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, with Rome being the fourth empire.
这将非常重要，原因很快就会明了。 This is going to be really important for reasons that will be clear in a few moments.
所以这些就是帝国：罗马帝国是铁和泥的帝国。 So those are the empires: the Roman Empire is the empire of iron and clay.
现在，洛伦兹·迪·托马索指出，这种认定在晚期 古代的拉比犹太教和教父基督教中都是一致的。 Now, Lorenz Di Tommaso points out that this identification was consistent throughout late antiquity in both rabbinic Judaism and patristic Christianity.
所以在第二圣殿时期，人们就是这样理解的，然后稍后一点，随着犹太教所 谓的拉比时期的开始，圣殿被毁，然后你开始有了非常有影响力的拉比。 So during the Second Temple period, this is how people understood it, and then a little bit later, as you have the beginning of what's called the rabbinic period of Judaism, the Temple's destroyed, and then you start to have rabbis who are really influential.
他们也是这样解释的。 They're interpreting it the same way.
教父时期，意思是早期教会的教父，早期的基督徒，他们也是这样解释的。 The patristic period, meaning the early Church Fathers, the early Christians, they interpret it the same way.
所以这不仅仅是在基督的时代是这样理解的；它继续被这样理解。 So it isn't just like up to the time of Christ this is how it's understood; it continues to be understood that way.
事实上，史蒂夫·梅森指出，在希腊罗马时期， 它被一致解释为指这四个国，第四个国是罗马。 In fact, Steve Mason points out that during the Greco-Roman period, it was interpreted unanimously as referring to these four kingdoms, with the fourth kingdom being Rome.
我提到这一点是因为现代怀疑论者，包括梅森本人 ，会认为这实际上是误认，但我们会讨论原因。 I mention this because modern skeptics, including Mason himself, are going to think this is actually a misidentification, but we'll get into why.
耶路撒冷的圣区利罗就是众多例子之一，他说这国是罗马人的国 ，意思是第四个国是罗马人的国，而教会一直是这样解释的。 St. Cyril of Jerusalem is one of many examples who says this kingdom is that of the Romans, meaning the fourth kingdom is that of the Romans, and that this is how the Church has always interpreted it.
他在大约公元350年说这话，但他指出，他不是第一个这样解释的人。 He says that in about 350, but he's pointing to the fact that he's not the first to interpret it this way.
有一大批解释者，至少可以追溯到公元100年代的希波吕托，他们也是这样解释的。 There are a bunch of interpreters going back to at least Hippolytus in the 100s who interpreted it in the same way.
那么这为什么重要呢？ So why does this matter?
这很重要，因为神对他要在第四个国的时候所要做的事作了特别的应许。 Well, it matters because God makes special promises for what He's going to do during the time of the fourth kingdom.
那些应许是什么呢？ What are those promises?
在异象中，它是这样的：正如但以理向王述说的，有一块非人手凿出来的石 头打在这像半铁半泥的脚上，把它们砸得粉碎，以致找不着它们的踪迹。 In the vision, it looks like this: as Daniel recounts to the king, a stone cut out by no human hand smites the image on its feet of iron and clay and breaks them into pieces so that not a trace of them could be found.
那打碎这像的石头变成一座大山，充满天下。 The stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
这就是预言，一块非人手凿出来的石头要来建立一个新 的天国——这就是意思——而且这国要遍及全世界。 That's the prophecy that a stone not formed by human hands is going to come and establish a new heavenly kingdom—that's the idea—and this kingdom will be worldwide.
他在解释中在44节说：当那列王在位的时候，天 上的神必另立一国，永不败坏，也不归别国的人。 He explains in the interpretation in verse 44: In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people.
却要打碎灭绝那一切国，这国必存到永远。 It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever.
现在，不需要解释天才也能明白，在罗马帝国时期，我们看到了这预言的应验。 Now, it doesn't take an interpretive genius to understand that during the time of the Roman Empire, we see this fulfilled.
我们看到那非人手凿出来的石头来到世上。 We see the stone not formed by human hands come into the world.
我们看到主耶稣基督的诞生，他确实建立了一个国 度，把这国度托付给圣彼得，赐给他天国的钥匙。 We see the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, and He in fact sets up a kingdom, entrusting this kingdom to St. Peter in the giving of the keys.
这国度，就是地上的教会，是天国的钥匙，遍及全世界，永存不朽。 This kingdom, the Church on earth, is kind of the key to the Kingdom of Heaven, spreads throughout the whole world, and lasts forever.
它永不败坏，也不归别国的人。 It will never be destroyed and will never be left to another people.
这是一个相当明确的解释，指向一个非常具体的时期——在罗马帝国控制犹太的时 候——我们将看到弥赛亚来到世上，在地上建立神的国度，并且要遍及全世界。 This is a pretty clear interpretation that points both to a very specific time period—during the time when the Roman Empire is controlling Judea—when we’re going to see the Messiah come into the world and establish the Kingdom of God on earth, and that it will spread worldwide.
这就是预言，正如我所说，是关于耶稣基督和大公教会的预言。 That’s the prophecy, which, as I say, is a prophecy both of Jesus Christ and of the Catholic Church.
所以，鉴于这预言如此清晰，显然指向大公教会， 你可能会想，那么非公教会基督徒如何解释呢？ So given how clear that seems to be, given how obviously that seems to point to the Catholic Church, you might wonder, well, how do non-Catholics interpret that?
他们如何避免得出这些听起来非常像公教会的结论呢？ How do they avoid coming to these very Catholic-sounding conclusions?
我想看看几种主要的方式。 I want to look at several of the major ways.
第一种，几乎可以肯定是最流行的，就是怀疑论学者的方式。 The first, and almost certainly the most popular, is the way skeptical scholars do.
现在，他们认为这预言不是关于罗马帝国的，正 如过去每个人理解的那样，而是关于希腊的。 Now, they make this prophecy not about the Roman Empire, as everybody understood it in the past, but instead about Greece.
罗伯特·格尼指出了这一点。 Robert Gurney points this out.
现在，格尼就是认为这指希腊的人之一。 Now, Gurney is one of these people who thinks it refers to Greece.
然而，他说激进的作者总是将四个国认定为巴比伦、玛代、波斯和希腊。 Nevertheless, he says radical authors always identify the four kingdoms as Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece.
注意这里，不是将波斯和玛代视为一个帝国，而是将它们分开。 Notice there, rather than the Persians and Medes being treated as one empire, this move splits them up.
所以玛代成为第二个帝国，波斯成为第三个帝国，就是铜的，然后希腊成为铁的。 So the Medes become the second empire, and the Persians become the third empire, the bronze one, and then Greece becomes iron.
这就是想法，这就是做法。 That’s the idea; that’s the move.
而保守的作者——你会注意到他们在这里得到古代犹太人 和古代基督徒的共识支持——按照我描述的方式认定它。 Whereas conservative authors—and you’ll notice they’re supported here by the consensus of ancient Jews and ancient Christians—identify it in the way that I described.
我想给出一个很好的例子，但在此之前，格尼解释了为什么这些激进学者倾向 于选择希腊而不是罗马的原因之一，是因为他们认为但以理书并不是真的来自 但以理的时代，而是公元前二世纪的作品，作者实际上并没有预言什么。 I want to give a really good example of this, but before I get there, Gurney explains one of the reasons why these radical scholars tend to settle on Greece rather than Rome is because they believe that Daniel isn’t really from the time of Daniel, that the Book of Daniel is actually from the 2nd century BC, and that the author isn’t actually predicting anything.
他只是在描述当前事件。 He’s instead describing current events.
他能够准确而详细地描述罗马帝国事件的原因是因为他正在经历这些事件。 The reason he’s able to describe things accurately and in great detail about the events of the Roman Empire is because he’s living through them.
现在，我只想把这一点说得非常清楚：这背后的前提是但以理并不是真正的先知。 Now, I just want to make that extremely clear: the presupposition behind this is that Daniel isn’t really a prophet.
他不可能是先知，因为按照这种怀疑理论，先知是不存在的。 He couldn't be a prophet because prophets don't exist, as this skeptical theory goes.
因此，如果我们看到这些对未来的准确预言，它们一定不是对 未来的预言；它们实际上一定是对当前事件或过去的描述。 Therefore, if we see these accurate predictions of the future, they must not be predictions of the future; they must actually be descriptions of current events or of the past.
这就是做法。 That's the move.
它预设预言文学不可能是它所声称的那样。 It's presupposing that prophetic literature couldn't possibly be what it claims to be.
一个很好的例子是德国神学家卡塔琳娜·布拉赫特，她说但以 理的四个世界时代由巴比伦、玛代、波斯和希腊的国度组成。 A good example of this is the German theologian Katharina Bracht, who says Daniel's four world eras consist of the kingdoms of Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece.
所以她非常明确：第四个国必须是希腊。 So she was very clear: the fourth kingdom must be Greece.
现在，为什么第四个国必须是希腊呢？ Now, why must the fourth kingdom be Greece?
她指出，最早的基督教注释者，如圣希波吕托，却将其解释为罗马， 她想当然地认为希波吕托实际上知道它应该是希腊，只是把它说成是 罗马，尽管每个人——犹太人和基督徒——都认为它是关于罗马的。 She points out that the earliest Christian commentators, like St. Hippolytus, interpret it instead as Rome, and she takes it for granted that Hippolytus actually knows it should be Greece and is just making it about Rome, even though everybody—Jewish and Christian—thought it was about Rome.
每个人心里都知道它是关于希腊的，这就是她的论点。 Everybody secretly knew it was about Greece; that's her argument.
她说，他面临的挑战是，当时的世界帝国——即罗马帝国 ——并没有出现在但以理书编辑所看到的国度序列中。 She says he’s faced with the challenge that the contemporary world empire—that is, the Roman Empire—does not appear within the sequence of kingdoms which the editor of the Book of Daniel had in view.
他怎么会知道这一点呢？ And how would he know this?
根据现代历史批判的解释，我们知道罗马帝国不可能被看到，因为但以理书的最 终编辑是在安提阿哥四世时期，大约公元前164年。换句话说，她假设，第一 ，但以理书最终是在公元前164年左右编写或编辑的，用她的话说；第二，因 此它不可能谈到罗马帝国，因为那时还没有发生，怎么可能有人是先知呢？ Well, on the basis of modern historical-critical exegesis, we know the Roman Empire could not have been in view because the final redaction of the Book of Daniel took place at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes IV, around 164 BCE. In other words, she’s assuming, number one, that Daniel was finally composed or redacted in about 164 BCE, to use her language; number two, that therefore it can't have anything to say about the Roman Empire because that hadn't happened yet, and how could anyone possibly be a prophet?
那会是，你知道，奇迹或什么的。 That would be, you know, miraculous or something.
圣希波吕托和早期基督徒一定意识到了这一点，对吧？ And Hippolytus and early Christians must realize this, right?
他们一定熟悉现代历史批判的解释。 They must be familiar with modern historical-critical exegesis.
现在，你可能注意到，这表面上是一种荒谬的观点。 Now, you might notice this is, on its face, kind of an absurd view.
它预设了自己的结论；它预设但以理不是先知。 It's presupposing its conclusion; it's presupposing Daniel's not a prophet.
这些都不是真的，然后得出一个结论：它不可能正确预言未来。 None of this is real, and then arriving at a conclusion that it couldn't possibly have gotten the future right.
现在，你会看到人们经常对新约这样做。 Now, you'll see people do this with the New Testament all the time.
耶稣预言耶路撒冷圣殿被毁，所以他们说，好吧，后来门徒一定是编造了 这个预言，而且一定是在公元70年圣殿被毁之后编造的。现在，正如其 他人指出的，我想德怀特·隆内克神父实际上有一篇关于这方面的文章。 Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and so they say, well, therefore later disciples must have made this prophecy up, and it must have been made up after the Temple was destroyed in the year 70. Now, As others have pointed out, I think Father Dwight Longenecker actually has an article about this.
即使耶稣不是先知——这是一个荒谬的出发点——但即使他不是， 也不奇怪30年代的某个人可能会预言，你知道，嘿，曾几何时， 当我们起来反抗统治我们的帝国势力时，他们毁坏了我们的圣殿。 Even if Jesus weren't a prophet—which is a ridiculous starting point—but even if He weren't, it wouldn't be shocking that someone in the 30s might foretell, you know, Hey, once before when we rose up against the imperial power dominating us, they destroyed our temples.
我看到很多狂热分子想要起来反抗罗马帝国；我想知道他们是否会毁坏我们的圣殿。 I see a lot of zealots wanting to rise up against the Roman Empire; I wonder if they'll destroy our temple.
想象这一点并不令人震惊，对吧？ It's not shocking to envision that, right?
一个有创造力的作者，一个聪明的人，一个能看透局势的人 ，甚至撇开超自然因素，也许能对未来作出准确的预测。 A creative author, a smart person, a person who can read the room, can maybe make an accurate prediction of the future, even leaving aside the supernatural element.
但注意，这是假设圣经是虚假的。 But notice this is presupposing the falsity of Scripture.
它假设圣经不是真的；预言文本不可能是预言，然后从那里推论。 It presupposes Scripture is not true; the prophetic text couldn't possibly be prophetic, and then working from there.
所以这是一个层面的批评：要接受这种希腊理论，你 应该意识到为之辩护的人是在预设圣经是虚假的。 So that's one level of critique: to accept the kind of Greek theory, you should realize that people arguing for it are presupposing the falsity of the Bible.
这不是他们在证明的东西，这是他们在假设的东西。 That's not something they're proving; it's something they're assuming.
要么这本书实际上是古老的，并准确地预言了未来，但如果你不能接受这一 点，那么你就必须编造它一定是更近代的，你必须编造四个国以希腊结束。 Either the book is actually ancient and accurately foretells the future, but if you can't accept that, then you have to invent that it must be much more recent, and you have to invent that the four kingdoms end with Greece.
但怀疑论的观点还有其他问题。 But there are additional problems with the skeptical view.
怀疑论的观点对但以理书本身没有意义，因为，记住，怀疑论的观点说四个国是：第一，巴 比伦——每个人都同意这一点，因为但以理直言不讳地说了；第二，玛代；第三，波斯。 The skeptical view doesn't make sense of Daniel itself because, remember, the skeptical view says the four kingdoms are: number one, Babylon—everybody agrees on that because Daniel says it outright; number two, the Medes; number three, the Persians.
为什么这是个问题？ Why is that a problem?
因为在这种观点中，你把玛代和波斯视为两个独立的国，两个独立的帝国。 Because in this view, you treat the Medes and the Persians as two separate kingdoms, two separate empires.
看看但以理书第八章。在但以理书第八章中，有另一个预言异象。 Look at Daniel 8. In Daniel 8, there's another prophetic vision.
这是一只公山羊攻击一只双角的公绵羊的异象。 This one's of a he-goat going up against a ram with two horns.
现在，在但以理书八章20至21节中明确指出：「那双角的公绵羊就是玛代和波斯王。」 Now, it's very explicit in Daniel 8, verses 20 to 21, that the ram with two horns is the kings of Media and Persia.
注意，在但以理书中它不是被视为两个国，玛代和波斯被视为一个双头的国。 Notice it's not treated as two kingdoms in Daniel; the Medes and the Persians are treated as one two-headed kingdom.
希望这有意义——那两个角是一个国的两个角，它们面对的是公山羊，就是希腊人。 Hope that makes sense—that the two horns are two horns of a single kingdom, and they're facing off against the he-goat, the Greeks.
另外，还有一些其他细节会有帮助。 Additionally, there are some other details that are going to be helpful.
在但以理书第八章，这公山羊，就是我们知道的希腊人，从西方来，越过全地。 In Daniel 8, this he-goat, which we know to be the Greeks, came from the west across the face of the whole earth.
记住这语言，因为在但以理书第二章，第三个国，铜的国，被描述为统治全地或统治天下。 Remember that language because in Daniel 2, the third kingdom, the kingdom of bronze, is described as ruling over the whole earth or ruling over all the earth.
换句话说，同样的语言被用来描述希腊人是第三个国，所以我们可以比 较但以理书第二章和第八章，意识到这些怀疑论学者在这里是错的。 In other words, the same language is used to describe the Greeks as the third kingdom, so we can compare Daniel 2 and Daniel 8 and realize that these skeptical scholars are just wrong here.
第四个国不可能是希腊，因为玛代和波斯被视为一个 国——但以理书第八章的双角公绵羊。那是银的国。 The fourth kingdom couldn't be Greece because the Medes and Persians are treated as one kingdom—the two-horned ram of Daniel 8. That's the silver kingdom.
希腊人被视为铜的国，在但以理书第二章和第八章中都将统治全世界。这意味着 第四个国，铁和泥的国，必须是希腊之后的国，我们历史上知道那是罗马帝国。 The Greeks are treated as the bronze kingdom, which will rule over the whole world in both Daniel 2 and in Daniel 8. That means that the fourth kingdom, the kingdom of iron and clay, must be the kingdom that comes after the Greeks, which we know historically is the Roman Empire.
现在，我要说的是：至少，这一点是正确的，它承认——就像怀疑论学者一样—— 那种不相信这一切是真的学术群体至少承认这是关于四个国的预言这一基本点。 Now, I will say this: what this gets right, at least, is it acknowledges—like the skeptical scholars—the kind of academic crowd that doesn't believe any of this is true at least recognizes the basic point that this is a prophecy about four kingdoms.
现在，这可能看起来不算什么，但等你看到其他一些误解经文的方式。 Now, that may not seem like much, but wait till you see some of the other ways the text gets misinterpreted.
让我们看看第二种误解。 Let's look to the second misinterpretation.
这是关于把它说成是欧洲或美国，然后加上一些额外的国。 This is about making it about Europe or maybe America and then adding some extra kingdoms.
这有点像摩门教的解释。 This is sort of the Mormon interpretation.
耶稣基督后期圣徒教会的会长金博尔在1970年代提出了对但以理书第 二章的解释，认为这实际上不是关于耶稣在罗马帝国时期的到来，而是关 于约瑟夫·史密斯在1830年代在美国的到来——耶稣基督后期圣徒教 会在1830年恢复。现在，你可能注意到这种解释有几个问题。 The president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Kimball, in the 1970s, presents an interpretation of Daniel 2 that this is all actually not about the coming of Jesus during the time of the Roman Empire, but about the coming of Joseph Smith in the 1830s in America—the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints restored in 1830. Now, you might notice a few problems with that interpretation.
首先，你怎么可能从巴比伦、玛代、波斯，然后得出尼布 甲尼撒代表万王之王，一个世界强权代表金头的解释呢？ The first is, how are you possibly getting from Babylon, Media, Persia, then came the interpretation that Nebuchadnezzar represented the king of kings, a world power representing the head of gold?
另一个国要兴起，接管世界统治。 Another kingdom would arise and take over world domination.
解释包括其他国的统治：居鲁士大帝和他的玛代波斯被腓力和亚历山大统治下的希腊或马 其顿王国取代，那世界强权被罗马帝国取代，罗马被一组欧洲国家取代，代表像的脚趾。 The interpretation included the domination of other kingdoms: Cyrus the Great with his Medes and Persians to be replaced by the Greek or Macedonian kingdom under Philip and Alexander, and that world power to be replaced by the Roman Empire, and Rome to be replaced by a group of nations of Europe represented by the toes of the image.
简要勾勒了世界历史，现在来了真正的启示，但以 理说：「当那列王在位的时候」，就是那一组…… Having delineated the history of the world in brief, now came the real revelation, and Daniel said, And in the days of these kings, that is, the group of...
所以注意，摩门教的观点发生了几件事。 So notice that a couple of things happen for the Mormon view.
首先，你引入了第五个国；你把脚趾变成一个国，或者 实际上是一组国，比如可能是十个不同的欧洲国家。 First, you introduce a fifth kingdom; you make the toes into a kingdom, or really a set of kingdoms, like maybe ten different European nations.
这有很多解释上的问题。 And there are a lot of exegetical problems with that.
首先，欧洲的世界强权与以色列的情况有什么关系？ First, how do European world powers have anything to do with the situation of Israel?
在但以理书第二章中，这些是统治犹太人民，统治以色列人的连续国度。 In Daniel 2, these are successive kingdoms that rule over the Jewish people, that rule over the Israelites.
所以从巴比伦人到波斯玛代或玛代波斯人，到希腊人，到罗马 人，有一个明显的顺序，因为一个接一个地统治神的子民。 And so there's an obvious sequence from the Babylonians to the Perso-Medes or the Medo-Persians, to the Greeks, to the Romans, because one after another rules over the people of God.
这与欧洲的世界强权有什么关系？ What does any of that have to do with European world powers?
如果你不在正确的大陆，你就不在正确的时间。 If you're not on the right continent, you're not in the right time period.
而且，但以理书第二章是关于弥赛亚的到来，那非人手凿出来的石头。 Also, Daniel 2 is about the coming of the Messiah, the stone not formed by human hands.
这怎么能指约瑟夫·史密斯呢？ How does that refer to Joseph Smith?
现在，我知道他有时称自己，比如在他自己的传记中，他称自己是从高处滚下来 的粗糙石头，但他似乎没有声称自己是但以理书第二章所描述的弥赛亚人物。 Now, I know he sometimes calls himself, for instance, in his own biography, he calls himself a rough stone rolling coming from on high, but he seems to stop just short of claiming he's the messianic figure Daniel 2 is describing.
此外，即使你要说脚趾是一组欧洲国家或什么的，我 们真的不知道为什么这些——什么，十个？——是 Additionally, even if you're going to say the toes are a group of European nation-states or something, we don't really know why these—what, ten?—are
我们在谈论什么？ we talking about?
你怎么从罗马帝国过渡到后来的欧洲君王？ How are you getting from the Roman Empire to later European kings?
你有一个2000年的空白要跨越。 You've got a 2000-year gap you're trying to span there.
那么，约瑟夫·史密斯实际上不是来自欧洲，那你怎么到达美国呢？ Well, Joseph Smith doesn't actually come from Europe, so where are you getting to America?
所以你可以看到这里有几个问题。 So you can see a few issues here.
注意你在添加一堆其他的国。 Notice you're adding a bunch of other kingdoms.
这将是人们误解经文的一个共同主题。 This is going to be a common theme of people misinterpreting the text.
你必须添加一堆国，使它不是关于耶稣，也不是关于但以理书第二 章中的大公教会。虽然在第40节，注意它说：「必有第四国」。 You have to add a bunch of kingdoms to make it not about Jesus and not about the Catholic Church in Daniel 2. Though in verse 40, notice it says, There shall be a fourth kingdom.
它从未说过必有第五国或再有十个国或类似的东西。 It never says there shall be a fifth kingdom or ten more kingdoms or anything like that.
它说必有第四国，坚固如铁。 It says there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron.
然后他说：「你既见像的脚和脚趾头一半是窑匠的泥，一半是铁，那国将来也必分开。」 And then he says, And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom.
也就是说，第四国——就是罗马帝国——第四国将是一个分裂的国，这当然是事实。 That is, the fourth kingdom—that the Roman Empire—the fourth kingdom will be a divided kingdom, which of course it was.
它始终处于政治动荡之中。 It was constantly in a state of political flux.
尽管它在外部是一个强大而凶猛的力量，像一个铁的国 度统治着整个世界，但在内部却受到不断内斗的困扰。 Even though it was externally this fierce, powerful force that was like a kingdom of iron dominating the whole world, internally it was plagued by constant infighting.
帝国内部有大规模的内战和各种分裂，最著名的是 东西罗马帝国的分裂，但这绝不是唯一的分裂。 You have massive civil wars and all sorts of divisions within the empire, most famously the division between the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, but by no means is that the only one.
这就是但以理书二章40到41节。但另一个问题是，正如我在34到35节中提到 的，它说有一块非人手凿出来的石头，打在这像半铁半泥的脚上，把它们砸得粉碎。 So that's Daniel 2, verses 40 to 41. But then the other problem is, as I mentioned in verses 34 to 35, it says that a stone was cut out by no human hand; it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces.
耶稣基督后期圣徒教会如何做到这一点？ How does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do that?
它是在欧洲兴起的吗？ Did it arise in Europe?
不是。它是否取代了我们想象中罗马帝国之后存在的任何欧洲帝国？ No. Did it overtake the whatever European empire we're imagining existed after the Roman Empire?
不是。没有任何意义上但以理书第二章的预言得到了应验。 No. There’s no sense in which the prophecy of Daniel 2 is fulfilled.
但更重要的是，如果你把这四个国的预言看作是：巴比伦、玛代、波斯、 希腊、罗马，然后你随意添加十个欧洲国家——你没有列出是哪十个—— 然后说你不知怎么就到了美国和约瑟·史密斯，这预言的意义何在？ But what’s more, if you think about this prophecy of the four kingdoms as going: Babylon, Media, Persia, Greece, Rome, and then you randomly are adding ten European nations—you’re not enumerating which ten—and then saying somehow you’re then getting to America and Joseph Smith, what was the point of the prophecy?
这显然不是关于四个国，而是关于几十个国，我们不知道有多少，然后这些国都不重要。 It was clearly not about four kingdoms; then it was about dozens of kingdoms we don’t know how many, and then none of those kingdoms matter.
统治以色列的国与此无关；欧洲列强与此无关。 The kingdoms ruling Israel have nothing to do with this; the European powers have nothing to do with it.
真正的行动发生在美国，而美国在预言中根本没有出现。 The real action is taking place in America, which doesn’t appear at all in the prophecy.
这是对但以理书第二章一个非常奇怪的误解。虽然许多新教徒不会 同情摩门教的这种误解，但许多新教徒也有非常类似的一套误解。 That’s a very strange misinterpretation of Daniel 2. And while many Protestants aren’t going to be sympathetic to the kind of Mormon misinterpretation, a great many Protestants make a very similar set of misinterpretations.
所以我想看的最后一种误解经文的类别是那些说这不是关于耶稣基 督来到世上，也不是关于他在第一次来临时在地上建立神的国度。 So the last kind of category of misinterpreted texts I want to look at are the ones that say this is not about Jesus Christ coming into the world, and it’s not about Him establishing the Kingdom of God on earth in His first coming.
相反，他们把它说成是关于基督的第二次来临，并去掉任何关于教会的提及。 Rather, they make it about the second coming of Christ and remove any reference to the Church.
我想看看几个这样的例子。 I want to look at a few examples of this.
这在基督复临安息日会的官方圣经注释中很清楚。 This is pretty clear in the official Seventh-day Adventist Bible commentary.
它看但以理书2章44节，并承认，许多注释者试图将这预言的细节作为基督第 一次降临的预言，也就是说他在第一世纪进入历史，以及随后福音征服世界。 It looks at Daniel 2:44 and acknowledges, Many commentators have attempted to make this detail of the prophecy a prediction of the first advent of Christ, that means when He came into history in the first century, and the subsequent conquest of the world by the Gospel.
但这个「国」，它用方括号括起来，不会与那四个国中的任何一个同时存在 ；它要继承铁和泥的阶段，而当基督在世上的时候，这阶段还没有到来。 But this kingdom, it puts it in square quotes, was not to exist contemporaneously with any of those four kingdoms; it was to succeed the iron and clay phase which had not yet come when Christ was here on earth.
所以安息日会的论点是你有四个国；我们到罗马帝国为止都很好。 So the Adventist argument is that you have the four kingdoms; we’re good up to the Roman Empire.
基督来了，然后——虽然这显然不是一个重要的细节——然后脚和脚 趾是第五个帝国，它描述为从第四个帝国中成长出来的各个国家。 Christ comes, then—although that’s apparently not an important detail—then the feet and toes are a fifth empire, which it describes as the various nations that grew out of the fourth empire.
所以你又有四个国；它们都不重要。 So again, you have four kingdoms; none of them matter.
然后你有从第四个帝国中成长出来的各个国家， 然后在未来的某个时候，你有基督国度的来临。 Then you have the various nations that grew out of the fourth empire, and then at some point in the future, you have the coming of Christ’s kingdom.
那么这四个国与任何事情有什么关系呢？ So what did the four kingdoms have to do with anything?
结果什么都没有。 It turned out nothing.
但以理书第二章是一个关于无的预言。 Daniel 2 is a prophecy about nothing.
将有四个国；它们都不重要。 There are going to be four kingdoms; none of them are important.
将有一些其他的王——我们不知道有多少，十个脚趾——但不会是十个国。 There are going to be some other kings—we don't know how many, ten toes—but it's not going to be ten kingdoms.
然后在那之后的某个时候，基督的来临将带着他的弥赛亚国度。 And then sometime after that, the coming of Christ will be with His messianic kingdom.
这就是预言，据说是根据安息日会的观点。 That’s the prophecy, allegedly, according to the Adventist view.
现在，你会注意到那并不是真正的预言什么。 Now, you’ll notice that’s not really a prophecy of anything.
那只是意味着在罗马帝国之后的某个时候，会有一些 其他的事情，然后在那之后会发生一些其他的事情。 That just means that sometime after the Roman Empire, there’ll be some other stuff, and then some other stuff will happen after that.
这是一个完全不可证伪的预言，因为它可以是未来的任何时间。 It’s a totally unfalsifiable prophecy because it could be any time in the future.
除了在罗马帝国之后的某个时候，根本没有指定任何时间窗口。 There’s no window of time specified at all, other than sometime after the Roman Empire.
所以你会注意到基督在历史上的来临甚至不是一个因素。 And so you’ll notice the coming of Christ in history is not even a factor.
就像那非人手凿出来的石头显然与基督的诞生无关；在这里根本没有提到。 Like the stone not formed by human hands has apparently nothing to do with the birth of Christ; it’s just not mentioned in this.
这就是安息日会的观点。 So that’s the Adventist view.
时代论基督徒持有一个惊人相似的观点。 There’s a surprisingly similar view taken by dispensational Christians.
如果你熟悉《末日迷踪》系列和人们谈论被提，那就是这个叫做时代论的运动的标志。 If you’re familiar with the Left Behind series and people talking about the rapture, that’s a sign of this movement called dispensationalism.
这是19世纪对圣经的看法，你会发现很多不同类型的时代论者。 It’s a 19th-century vision of the Bible, and you’ll find a lot of different varieties of dispensationalists.
我要给出几个不同的时代论解释，但我要说明的是，时代论者会试图将 这些经文解读为对世界事件的预言，他们会得出彼此截然不同的结论。 I’m going to give a couple of different dispensational interpretations, but I want to caveat that dispensationalists will try to read these texts as predictions of world events, and they’ll come to wildly different conclusions from one another.
所以我不是说这是时代论者解读它的唯一方式，但这里有三 种不同的时代论解释，所有这些都提出了类似的错误主张。 So I’m not saying this is the only way dispensationalists read it, but here are three different dispensational interpretations, all of which make similar false claims.
我想从一位非常著名的20世纪早期的时代论者开始，他的名字叫克拉伦斯·拉金。 I want to start with a very well-known early 20th-century dispensationalist by the name of Clarence Larkin.
他说那石头——记住但以理书第二章的石头——不可能是基督教。 He says the stone—remember the stone of Daniel 2—cannot be Christianity.
他直言不讳地说：这不是关于基督教的预言。 He says it outright: this is not a prophecy about Christianity.
那石头不可能是基督教，因为它不是逐渐充满全地，从而挤压巨像，而是一击就摧毁了它。 The stone cannot be Christianity, for it does not fill the earth by degrees and thus crowd up the colossus, but it at one blow demolishes it.
所以在他看来，耶稣基督历史中的破碎太过渐进，所以不可能是关于耶稣的。 So the breaking in the history of Jesus Christ is too gradual in his view, and so it can't be about Jesus.
事实上，他在书中有一张图表，勾画了他对历史 的看法，他明确表示教会没有向但以理启示。 In fact, he has a chart in his book where he outlines his vision of history, and he explicitly says the Church was not revealed to Daniel.
但以理书第二章的预言不是关于基督在历史中降临，也不是关于教会的。 The prophecy of Daniel 2 is not about Christ coming in history, and it's not about the Church.
相反，它是关于石头的国度，他认为这将在遥远的未来某个时候成为以色列。 Instead, it's about the stone kingdom, which he thinks is going to be Israel at some point in the far distant future.
事实上，如果你比较图像，石头的国度甚至不在四个国或脚的任何时候。 In fact, if you compare in the image, the stone kingdom is not even like at the time of any of the four kingdoms or the feet.
还记得脚趾吗？ Remember the toes?
你把它们变成额外的国度；这就是你为自己争取更多时间的方法。 You turn them into extra kingdoms; that’s how you buy yourself more time.
它不在四个国或脚中；在图像中，它远在那之后。 It’s not in the four kingdoms or the feet; it’s way after that in the image.
所以他又说，这不可能是基督教。 So again, he says it can't be Christianity.
那么它是什么呢？ And so what is it?
他声称，在敌基督兴起之前的战争中，那时在古罗马 帝国地理范围内的国家将为相互保护而结成联盟。 Well, he claims during the wars preceding the rise of the Antichrist, the nations that will then be found in the geographical limits of the old Roman Empire will form an alliance for mutual protection.
很多人会把这看作是关于欧盟的。 A lot of people are going to take that as about the European Union.
你有——尽管欧盟与罗马帝国并不完全重合——然而， 欧洲的部分，这些国家将有十个，由兽的十角代表。 You’ve got— even though the European Union doesn’t really overlap very well with the Roman Empire—nevertheless, parts of Europe, these nations will be ten in number, represented by the ten horns of the beast.
他认为但以理书第二章的十个脚趾与描绘中的十个角相同——有两个不同 的描绘，一个在但以理书，一个在启示录——一个兽，一个十角，七头。 He thinks Daniel 2’s ten toes are the same as the ten horns in the depiction—there are two different depictions, one in Daniel and one in Revelation—of a beast, in one case ten horns, seven heads.
他说所有这些都是指罗马帝国，但不是真正的罗马帝国——在未来的某个 时候，毫无疑问，在未来的几千年里，跟随罗马帝国的十个欧洲国家。 He said all of these are referring to the Roman Empire, but not really the Roman Empire—ten European nations that followed the Roman Empire at some point, thousands of years in the future, no doubt.
他说教皇的教会将在这些进程中扮演重要角色；她将在这种政教合一中恢复政治 权力作为回报，其中大公教会将掌控，正如女人骑在兽上所示，从而支配它。 He says the papal Church will play a prominent part in those proceedings; she’ll be rewarded by restoration of political power in this union of church and state, in which the Catholic Church will have control, as shown by the woman riding the beast, thus dominating it.
所以尽管他说教会没有在但以理书第二章中被预言，他确实认为这 十个国家与石头国度的来临有关，涉及大公教会以某种方式将这十 个国家连接在一起，在某种模糊的政治联盟中，再次，十个国家。 So even though he says that the Church is not foretold in Daniel 2, he does view the ten nations with the coming of the stone kingdom as being about the Catholic Church somehow involved in connecting these ten nations in some ambiguous political union of just, again, ten nations.
欧盟有太多国家；然而，这就是论点，这在某种程度上是在遥远的未来。 The EU has way too many; nevertheless, that’s kind of the argument, and this is somehow way in the future.
所以拉金对四个国的看法——巴比伦、玛代波斯、希 腊、罗马——到目前为止都很好，但这些都不重要。 So Larkin’s view of the four kingdoms—Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome—were good so far, but none of that matters.
基督进入历史——没有提到，不重要。 Christ comes into history—not mentioned, doesn’t matter.
基督教的救恩不重要；这不是预言的一部分。 Salvation of Christianity doesn’t matter; it’s not part of the prophecy.
然后你有几千年——我们不知道多长时间——然后你有脚和脚趾，这在 但以理书第二章中根本没有强调，但显然实际上是整个事情的关键。 You then have thousands of years—we don’t know how long—and then you have the feet and toes, which are not stressed at all in Daniel 2, but apparently are actually the key to the whole thing.
十个脚趾这一事实竟然是最重要的细节，而但以理完全忽略了它。 The fact that there are ten toes turns out to be the most important detail, and Daniel totally overlooks it.
他没有说一句话，说明这十个脚趾如何代表十个欧洲强 国，它们将被敌基督的大公教会策划为某种政治联盟。 He doesn’t say one word about how the ten toes represent ten European powers who are going to be confederated as some sort of political alliance orchestrated by the Antichrist Catholic Church.
这就是事情的全部关键，然后石头来临——基督的地上国度——在那之后的某个时候。 That’s the whole crux of the thing, and then the stone comes—Christ’s earthly kingdom—at some point after that.
所以注意，以色列被一连串的巴比伦人，也许还有 波斯人、希腊人和罗马人统治的现实与此无关。 So notice Israel has nothing to do with this in terms of the reality of Israel being ruled by a successive set of Babylonians, maybe Persians, Greeks, and Romans.
事实证明，那根本不重要。 Turns out that’s not important at all.
基督在历史上的来临——根本不重要。 The coming of Christ in history—not important at all.
他建立教会——根本不重要。 The establishment of His Church—not important at all.
相反，他所设想的某种虚构的国家地缘政治灾难才是未 来整个事情的关键，这就是我们应该一直在读的内容。 Rather, some imaginary nation-state kind of geopolitical disaster that he’s envisioning is the crux of the whole thing in the future, and that’s what we should have been reading this all about.
事实证明，这一切都是关于欧盟政治或欧洲世界大战政治，尽 管在但以理书第二章中没有提到这些。这就是拉金的观点。 Turns out it’s all about EU politics or European world war politics, even though there’s nothing about that in Daniel 2. So that’s Larkin’s view.
我现在想转向一个相当受欢迎的YouTube频道，叫做《明日世界》， 看看他们如何有一种稍微不同但有些相似的看法，认为这并不是真正关于耶 稣和他的教会，而是关于一系列可怕的，也许是虚构的复兴罗马帝国。 I want to turn now to a fairly popular YouTube channel called Tomorrow’s World and look at how they have a slightly different but somewhat similar kind of vision of how this isn’t really about Jesus and His Church, but instead about a whole series of scary, maybe imaginary, revival Roman empires.
让我们从他们正确的地方开始：但以理书第二章像的第四部分是铁的腿。 Let’s start with what they get right: the fourth section of the statue in Daniel 2 was the legs of iron.
当然，这代表将要兴起并推翻希腊马其顿帝国的国度。 Of course, this represented the kingdom that would rise up and put down the Greco-Macedonian Empire.
这是罗马帝国。 This was the Roman Empire.
好，到目前为止一切顺利。 Okay, so far so good.
他们把前四个国弄对了，这比怀疑论学者要好。 They get the first four kingdoms right, which is better than skeptical scholars.
如果他们就此打住，说这是一系列连续的国，一个接一个地推翻 ，带你到罗马帝国，带你到耶稣基督和他的教会，那就太好了。 If they just stopped here and said this is a series of successive kingdoms, one which kind of knocks out another and it gets you to the Roman Empire, gets you to Jesus Christ and His Church, it would be great.
但他们不能这样做，因为那样他们就不得不承认基督建立了一个有2000年历史的教会。 But they can’t do that because then they’d have to acknowledge that Christ establishes a 2000-year-old Church.
那么他们该怎么办呢？ So what do they do instead?
他们想出了一整套额外的国度，他们又用脚趾为自己买下这些国度。 They come up with a whole series of extra kingdoms, and again they buy themselves these kingdoms with the toes.
他们在这里解释这个异象：在最初的帝国衰弱并走向终结之后，将有十个额 外的复兴或君王，由但以理书第七章的十个角代表。第三，在这十个复兴中 ，其中七个将在一个从罗马帝国中兴起的宗教亵渎体系出现之后出现。 Here they are, kind of explaining this vision: after the initial empire weakened and came to its end, there would be ten additional revivals or kings represented by the ten horns of Daniel 7. And third, of these ten revivals, seven of them would come after the emergence of a religious blasphemous system that would rise out of the Roman Empire.
所以他们又一次对大公教会着迷，但他们不能仅仅说教会是基督建立的国度。 So again, they’re really obsessed with the Catholic Church, but they can’t just say the Church is the kingdom established by Christ.
他们必须说，实际上，这是这个邪恶的帝国，虚假的教会，它是从罗马帝国中建立的。 They have to say, actually, this is this evil empire, false church, and it is established out of the Roman Empire.
但注意，他们把脚当作复兴的罗马帝国，他们声称这是十个连续的。 But notice that they have the feet as a revival Roman Empire, and they claim that it’s ten successive.
所以注意这里，拉金的观点是这是一个同时存在的十国 联盟，而《明日世界》说这是罗马帝国的十次复兴。 So notice here, whereas Larkin’s view is that it’s a coalition of ten nations that exist at the same time, Tomorrow’s World is saying it’s ten revivals of the Roman Empire.
所以这不仅仅是添加第五个国；它还要再加十个国。 So it’s not just adding a fifth kingdom; it’s going to add ten more kingdoms.
我给你举两个例子，因为他们只告诉我们其中两个。 I’ll give you an example of two of them because they only tell us two of them.
公元554年查士丁尼的复兴是七个角中的第一个， 而最近宣布的复兴是在希特勒-墨索里尼政权下。 Justinian’s restoration in 554 AD was the first of the seven horns, while the most recent proclaimed revival was under the Hitler-Mussolini regime.
这成为最后七个角中的第六个。 This made the sixth of the seven final horns.
最后一个还未到来，这把我们带回到但以理书第二章的像。尼 布甲尼撒预言梦中像的第五部分和最后一部分是脚和脚趾。 The last one is still to come, which brings us back to the statue of Daniel 2. The fifth and final part of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s prophetic dream was the feet and toes.
这些代表尚未到来的罗马帝国最后的复兴，在但以理书第二章中 被描绘为十个脚趾，在启示录17章12节中被描绘为十个角。 These represent the yet future final revival of the Roman Empire, depicted in Daniel 2 as the ten toes and in Revelation 17, verse 12, as ten horns.
所以我想确保你明白这一点，因为他认为查士丁尼的 复兴实际上是第四个国，十个脚趾中的第四个脚趾。 So I want to make sure you get this because he argues that Justinian’s revival is actually the fourth kingdom, the fourth toe of the ten toes.
现在，这甚至是一个奇怪的理解脚趾的方式。 Now, that’s a weird way of even understanding toes.
你的脚趾不是那样连续的；它们是并存的。 Your toes are not consecutive like that; they’re concurrent.
它们都在你身体的同一水平线上。 They’re all at the same level of your body.
所以如果时间线的方式是一个像，你会想象脚趾会同时发生。 So if the way the timeline is going is as a statue, you would imagine that toes would all happen at the same time.
但他们要把每个脚趾当作一个连续的帝国。 But they’re going to treat each toe as a successive empire.
但前三个显然是在罗马帝国时期。 But the first three are apparently during the period of the Roman Empire.
他们没有告诉我们那三个是什么，因为查士丁尼当然仍然在罗马时期 ，他们没有告诉我们其他任何一个，除了第九个，就是希特勒和墨索 里尼作为一个帝国——不知怎么的，实际上他们不是，但算了。 They don’t tell us what those three are because Justinian is certainly still during the Roman period, and they don’t tell us any of the other ones other than the ninth one, which is Hitler and Mussolini as one empire—somehow, which really they weren’t, but fine.
他们与罗马帝国有什么关系？ What did they have to do with the Roman Empire?
不清楚。 Unclear.
德国是罗马帝国的一部分吗？ Is Germany part of the Roman Empire?
不清楚。 Unclear.
埃尔弗能够找到另一个列表，填补他们所说的十个，因为，记住，你在看但以 理书第二章的十个脚趾，这在但以理的解释中不是一个重要特征，但如果你要 误解经文，这是一个关键特征，并将其与但以理书第七章的十个角和启示录第 十七章的七个头结合起来。所以论点是，前三个角可能是在罗马帝国时期。 Elfer is able to find another list that filled in what they said were the ten because, remember, you’re looking at the ten toes of Daniel 2, which are not an important feature in Daniel’s interpretation but are the critical feature if you’re going to misinterpret the text, and combining that with the ten horns of Daniel 7 and the seven heads in Revelation 17. And so the argument is that the first three horns are during the Roman Empire period, maybe.
理查德·德·里滕堡是赫伯特·阿姆斯特朗那种奇 怪的邪教教会的后裔之一，他提供了这个列表。 Richard de Rittenbaugh, who is one of the offspring of Herbert Armstrong's kind of weird set of culty churches, provides this list.
他们是不信三位一体的；我想大多数新教徒根本不会认为他们是基督徒。 They’re non-Trinitarians; I think most Protestants wouldn’t consider them Christians at all.
但你会发现像这样的列表。 But you will find lists like this one.
它声称前三个群体是汪达尔人、赫鲁利人和东哥特人。 It claims the first three groups are the Vandals, the Heruli, and the Ostrogoths.
你可能注意到这些都不是罗马帝国。 You might notice none of those are the Roman Empire.
然后你有554年的查士丁尼，这与《明日世界》一致。 Then you have Justinian in 554, which agrees with Tomorrow’s World.
《明日世界》没有列出接下来的几个，但他们有查理曼、奥托大帝、查理五世和拿破仑。 Tomorrow’s World doesn’t name the next several, but they have Charlemagne, Otto the Great, Charles V, and Napoleon.
然后第九/第六是他们有加里波第和墨索里尼。 Then the ninth/slash sixth is they have Garibaldi and Mussolini.
《明日世界》有墨索里尼和希特勒，然后很方便地，总是就在眼前——有一 些可怕的事情即将发生，十个国家显然，尽管它们是连续的帝国，它们也代 表十国联盟，如果你是《明日世界》，也许是欧盟，它们将把权力交给兽。 Tomorrow’s World has Mussolini and Hitler, and then conveniently, it’s always just around the corner—there’s some horrible thing about to happen where the ten nations are apparently, even though they were consecutive empires, they also represent an alliance of ten nations that maybe is the EU if you’re Tomorrow’s World, and they’re going to give their power to the beast.
这里有几个问题：第一，这些事情与但以理书第二章 的预言有什么逻辑联系？我想答案很明显是没有。 A couple of questions here: number one, what logical connection do any of these things have to the prophecy in Daniel 2? I think the answer is pretty clearly none.
这些不是连续的世界帝国。 These are not successive world empires.
以赫鲁利人为例，他们是一个东日耳曼民族，最初来自斯堪的纳维亚。 The Heruli, just to take one example, were an Eastern Germanic people originally from Scandinavia.
根据《大英百科全书》，他们袭击了罗马帝国的城镇，我不得不查阅，因为我不知道他们是 谁，他们在公元267年取得了最大的成功，当时他们占领了拜占庭，洗劫了希腊城市。 They raided towns in the Roman Empire, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, which I had to look up because I didn’t know who they were, scoring their greatest success in AD 267 when they captured Byzantium and sacked Greek cities.
两年后，东赫鲁利人被罗马皇帝哥特克劳狄二世彻底击败。 Two years later, the Eastern Heruli were crushingly defeated by the Roman Emperor Claudius II Gothicus.
所以我问你，他们是罗马帝国的复兴吗？ So I ask you, are they a revival of the Roman Empire?
他们不是。 They are not.
所以时代论对四个国的看法归结为这样：你把前四个弄对了——实际上在预言中 的四个，但以理书第二章：巴比伦、玛代、波斯、希腊、罗马——然后你就把十 个国当作随机的欧洲东西：异教部落、罗马皇帝，也许是法国、意大利王国、纳 粹德国，也许是欧盟。你可以在那里放任何你想要的东西；没有逻辑顺序。 So the dispensational view of the four kingdoms comes down to something like this: you get the first four right—the four that are actually in the prophecy, Daniel 2: Babylon, Media, Persia, Greece, Rome—and then you just treat the ten kingdoms as like random European stuff: pagan tribes, Roman emperors, maybe the French, the Kingdom of Italy, Nazi Germany, maybe the EU. You can just put in whatever you want there; there’s no logical order.
它们不是一个推翻另一个的国；与征服犹大或以色列人或类似的事情无关。 They’re not one kingdom that knocks out another; it has nothing to do with conquering Judea or the Israelites or anything like that.
耶稣来到世上对此并不重要。 Jesus coming into the world is not important for this.
教会的建立与此无关；这只是关于21世纪即将发生的一些坏事，这将吸引点击。 The establishment of the Church has nothing to do with this; it’s just about there being some bad thing that happens in the 21st century, just around the corner, that’s going to get clicks.
这只是糟糕的圣经解释。 That’s just terrible biblical exegesis.
所以一旦你认识到但以理书第二章明确是关于四个国，不是五个或十五 个——十四个，数学不好——但以理书第二章证明了关于教会的什么？ So once you recognize that Daniel 2 is explicitly about four kingdoms, not five or fifteen—fourteen, bad math there—what does Daniel 2 prove about the Church?
很明显，在罗马帝国时期，基督将带着他的国度降临。 Well, pretty clearly that during the time of the Roman Empire, Christ will come with His kingdom.
现在，这在其他经文中也有很清楚的预言。 Now, this is prophesied in other texts also very clearly.
以赛亚书第九章就是其中一段美丽的圣诞经文：「因有一婴孩 为我们而生，有一子赐给我们，政权必担在他的肩头上。」 Take Isaiah 9. This is one of those beautiful Christmas texts: For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and then it says, and the government will be upon His shoulder.
这很明显是关于基督降生的预言，并且与统治联系在一起。 This is very clearly a prophecy about the birth of Christ, and it’s tying it with rule.
「政权必担在他的肩头上，他名称为奇妙策士、全能的神、永在的父、和平的君。」 The government will be upon His shoulder, and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
不要忽略「君」是一个王室头衔。 Don’t lose the fact that Prince is a royal title.
然后在下一节我们被告知：「他的政权与平安必加 增无穷，他必坐在大卫的宝座上，治理他的国。」 And then we’re told in the very next verse that of the increase of His government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom to establish it.
基督第一次来到世上绝对是为了将他的国度带入世界——这就是以赛亚书第 九章的应许。所以，如果你以一种基督来到世上无关紧要，他将神的国度带 入世界无关紧要的方式来解释但以理书第二章，你就完全误解了经文。 That Christ’s first coming into the world is absolutely about bringing His kingdom into the world—that is the promise of Isaiah 9. So if you’re interpreting Daniel 2 in such a way that Christ coming into the world doesn’t matter and Him bringing the Kingdom of God into the world doesn’t matter, you’ve completely missed the text.
你完全误解了正在发生的事情。 You’ve completely misunderstood what’s going on.
现在，这并不是孤立的。 Now, this is not alone.
当天使加百列向童贞女马利亚宣告弥赛亚的诞生时，他说： 「他要作雅各家的王，直到永远，他的国也没有穷尽。」 When the angel Gabriel announces the birth of the Messiah to the Virgin Mary, he says, And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.
神永恒的国度随着耶稣第一次降临来到世上，而不是他的第二次降临。 The eternal Kingdom of God comes with Jesus into the world in His first coming, not His second coming.
在他第一次降临时，这是神国度的突破。 In His first coming, this is the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God.
现在，可以肯定的是，它在全世界扩展和增长。 Now, to be sure, it expands and grows throughout the world.
在马太福音第十三章，他把它比作一粒芥菜种，起初很小，然后长大。 In Matthew 13, He compares it to a mustard seed that’s small at first and then grows.
这就是应许。 That’s the promise.
这不是一件瞬间的事情；说它是瞬间的事情是错误的。 It’s not an instantaneous thing; it’s a mistake to say it’s an instantaneous thing.
这是对世界的突破，当神自己突然进入历史时的根本断裂。 It is an in-breaking into the world, the radical rupture when suddenly God Himself enters history.
但他的国度的增长是石头扩展成大山，芥菜种扩展成芥菜树。 But the growth of His kingdom is the spread of a stone into a mountain, the spread of a mustard seed into a mustard tree.
这是耶稣基督的信息，如果你错过了这一点，你就错过了他信息的很大一部分。 This is the message of Jesus Christ, and if you’ve missed this, you’ve missed a huge part of His message.
确实，他在马可福音中的第一句话是：「日期满了，神的国近了，你们当悔改，信福音！」 Literally, His first words in the Gospel of Mark are, The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the Gospel.
如果你持有时代论的观点、摩门教的观点、安息日会的观点 ，你就不得不说日期还没有满，而且在几千年内都不会满。 If you’re taking the dispensational view, the Mormon view, the Adventist view, you have to say the time is not fulfilled and won’t be for thousands of years.
神的国并不是真的近了。 The Kingdom of God is not really at hand.
这是一个重大的区别。 That is a major difference.
或者看马太福音21章，耶稣告诉不信的犹太听众： 「神的国必从你们夺去，赐给那能结果子的百姓。」 Or take Matthew 21, where Jesus tells the unbelieving Jewish audience that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.
这就是警告，神的国已经以某种方式在以色列中存在，将被夺去，赐给外邦人。 That’s the warning that the Kingdom of God, already present in some way amongst Israel, will be taken and given to the Gentiles.
我们在哪里看到这一点？ Where do we see this?
在歌罗西书第一章，圣保罗对教会说：「他救了我们脱离黑暗的权势， 把我们迁到他爱子的国里；我们在爱子里得蒙救赎，罪过得以赦免。」 Well, in Colossians 1, St. Paul says to the Church, He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the Kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
他显然不知道自己错了几千年，因为他不知道欧盟政治，显然这才是但以理书第二章真 正的内容，或者1830年代美国的摩门教——一个圣保罗从未去过或听说过的地方。 He apparently didn’t know that he was thousands of years off because he didn’t know about EU politics, which is apparently what Daniel 2 is really about, or about Mormonism in the 1830s in America—a place St. Paul had never been or heard about.
他以为我们已经有神的国在地上，我们已经被耶稣基督迁入其中。 He thought we already had the Kingdom present on earth, that we are already transferred into it by Jesus Christ.
他真傻，相信基督教而不是奇怪的误解。 Silly him, believing in Christianity instead of weird misinterpretations.
这当然与教会有关。 And this is, of course, tied to the Church.
现在，我不想说教会就是国度。 Now, I don’t want to say the Church simply is the Kingdom.
国度是神掌权的地方。 The Kingdom is where God reigns.
所以如果基督在你心中掌权，如果他是王，那么神 的国就临到你们中间，神的国也可以在你们里面。 So if Christ reigns in your heart, if He’s the King, then the Kingdom of God has come among you, and the Kingdom of God can be within.
但绝对地，你不能在不参考教会的情况下正确理解国度。 But absolutely, you can’t understand the Kingdom properly without reference to the Church.
这在马太福音16章中变得非常清楚，当他说彼得：「我要把我的教会建造在这磐石上。」 And this becomes very clear in Matthew 16 when He says to Peter, Upon this rock I’ll build my Church.
然后他说：「阴间的权柄不能胜过他。」然后他说：「我要把天国的钥匙给你。」 Then He says, The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it, and then He says, I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.
教会和国度之间的这种联系就在这里明确地表达出来。 This connection between Church and Kingdom is right there explicitly.
在以弗所书第二章，教会被描述为神家里的人，「并且被建 造在使徒和先知的根基上，有基督耶稣自己为房角石。」 In Ephesians 2, the Church is described as members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone.
他把它描述为「在主里面成为圣殿」。 He describes it as a holy temple in the Lord.
基督，这非人手凿出来的石头，来到世上建立一个帝国 ——基督的帝国，神的国度——其钥匙托付给圣彼得。 That Christ, this stone not formed by human hands, comes into the world and builds an empire—the empire of Christ, the Kingdom of God—and the keys to it are entrusted to St. Peter.
所以如果这是对的——我认为这只是基督教入门——我们能从中得出什么结论呢？ So if that’s right—and I think that’s just Christianity 101—what can we make of that?
让我们说四件事：第一，教会和基督的降临将始于罗马帝国时期。 Let’s say four things: Number one, this incoming of the Church and of Christ will begin during the Roman Empire.
第二，教会将由一块非人手凿出来的石头建立——很明显是耶稣，对吧？ Number two, the Church will be founded by a stone cut out by no human hand—very clearly Jesus, right?
第三，它将成为一座大山，充满全地。 Number three, it will become a great mountain and fill the whole earth.
第四，它必存到永远。 And number four, it shall stand forever.
所有这些都直接来自对但以理书第二章的正确理解。 如果那不是指罗马公教会，请告诉我，那是指谁？ All of that is coming directly from a proper understanding of Daniel chapter 2. If that doesn’t refer to the Roman Catholic Church, pray tell, who does it refer to?
如果你必须发明十个国才能达到目的，并且必须添加一堆与但以理 书第二章无关的奇怪欧洲政治才能达到目的，你就误解了经文。 And if you have to invent ten more kingdoms to get there and have to add a bunch of weird European politics that has nothing to do with Daniel 2 to get there, you’ve misread the text.
最后一句，与此无关，但我要感谢K.H. Wilson邀请我做这一集。 Final word, unrelated to this, but I want to give a shout-out to K.H. Wilson for asking me to do this episode.
还有，我在其中几集提到过Patreon；如果你能支持，那就太好了。 And to say, look, I’ve mentioned Patreon in a few of these; it’s wonderful if you can support that.
我知道这对你们中的一些人来说不现实，我完全同情和理解这一点。 I know that’s not realistic for some of you, and I totally empathize and understand that.
你越多地评论、互动、分享——就像YouTub er总是告诉你做的那些事情——就越有帮助。 The more you do things like comment and engage, share—like all that stuff YouTubers always tell you to do—the more it helps.
回顾过去几个月，我非常具体地看到了这一点，到目前为止 表现最好的一集是关于马丁·路德和宗教改革的八个神话。 I saw this very concretely looking back at the last several months, and the best performing episode by far was the one about eight myths about Martin Luther and the Reformation.
我认为很大一部分原因是YouTube因为版权投诉将其隔离了两周；它被困在炼狱中。 I think a big part of that is YouTube had quarantined it for two weeks because of a copyright strike; it was stuck in purgatory.
然后当它出来时，你们非常积极地推广、评论和提升算法，这产生了显著的效果。 And then when it came out, you guys were really active in promoting it and commenting and boosting the algorithm, and it made a marked difference.
所以如果这是你关心的事情，如果你想要一个很好的免费帮助方式，做所有那些讨厌的事 情——点赞、分享、评论——是一个很好的免费方式，帮助确保更多人获得这样的内容。 So if this is something you care about, if you want a great free way to help, doing all of that obnoxious stuff—liking, sharing, commenting—is a great way for free to help make sure more people get content like this.
请继续提供好的内容创意。 And please continue to give good content ideas.
如果有你真的想要的一集，也许下次我做的一集就是回应你。 If there’s an episode you really want, maybe next time it’ll be you that I’m doing an episode in response to.
我是乔·赫施迈尔，为无耻教皇党服务。 For Shameless Popery, I’m Joe Heschmeier.
愿神祝福你！ God bless you!