- start: 0.796
  end: 12.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you everybody for joining us in this Catholic Truth podcast, where we teach and preach nothing but the Catholic truth, which has come down to us for 2,000 years from Jesus and the Apostles.
  zh: 感谢大家收听公教会真理播客，在这里我们只传授和宣讲从耶稣和使徒们传承了两千年的公教会真理。
- start: 12.284
  end: 21.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We are happy to teach and preach the truth from Jesus, and we want to help you to know your faith, love your faith, defend your faith, and to live it with purpose and passion.
  zh: 我们很高兴传授和宣讲来自耶稣的真理，我们希望帮助你认识你的信仰，热爱你的信仰，捍卫你的信仰，并且充满目标和热情地活出信仰。
- start: 21.851
  end: 24.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We want to thank you for joining us today on this episode.
  zh: 感谢你今天收听本期节目。
- start: 24.913
  end: 29.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My name is Brian Mercier, I am your host, and we have a very special guest today.
  zh: 我是主持人布莱恩·梅西耶，今天我们邀请到了一位特别的嘉宾。
- start: 29.284
  end: 39.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: His name is Paul Thigpen, and he is an internationally known speaker, a bestselling author, and an award-winning journalist who has written over 35 books.
  zh: 他就是保罗·西格彭，一位国际知名的演说家、畅销书作家、获奖记者，已经写作了超过35本书。
- start: 39.871
  end: 47.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I believe they’ve been translated into something like 15 different languages, so he’s really studied and he’s really popular.
  zh: 我相信他的作品已被翻译成约15种不同的语言，可见他是一位非常有学问且广受欢迎的作家。
- start: 48.497
  end: 57.203
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: His most famous book is The Rapture Trap, which you can find on his website and on other platforms as well.
  zh: 他最著名的著作是《被提陷阱》，你可以在他的网站和其他平台上找到这本书。
- start: 57.356
  end: 62.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’ll be talking a lot about that in this video, which we’re going to be discussing regarding the Rapture.
  zh: 在这期节目中，我们将围绕被提这个话题进行深入讨论。
- start: 62.379
  end: 74.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But before we get to that, I just want to say that Mr. Thigpen, in 2008, was appointed by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to their National Advisory Board as a lay advisor.
  zh: 在开始之前，我想说西格彭先生在2008年被美国公教会主教会议任命为全国顾问委员会的平信徒顾问。
- start: 74.806
  end: 79.608
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He serves the Church as a professor, a historian, an apologist, and a catechist.
  zh: 他以教授、历史学家、护教学者和教理讲授者的身份服务于教会。
- start: 79.608
  end: 84.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You might say that he does it all, and he’s been an apologist for a very long time.
  zh: 可以说他是多才多艺，而且他作为护教学者已经很多年了。
- start: 84.531
  end: 90.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There’s no person that I can think of on the topic of the Rapture than Paul Thigpen, who is an expert on this.
  zh: 说到被提这个话题，我想不出还有比保罗·西格彭更专业的专家了。
- start: 91.198
  end: 97.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Rapture is, as we’re going to see, unbiblical; it is not a teaching of Jesus Christ, and it’s not a teaching of Christianity.
  zh: 正如我们将要看到的，被提说是不符合圣经的，这既不是耶稣基督的教导，也不是基督教的教义。
- start: 97.704
  end: 101.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Here to talk about this today, we are going to welcome to the show Paul Thigpen.
  zh: 现在，让我们欢迎保罗·西格彭做客本期节目。
- start: 101.548
  end: 103.309
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you for joining us today.
  zh: 感谢您今天做客。
- start: 103.51
  end: 104.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Great to be here, Brian.
  zh: 很高兴来到这里，布莱恩。
- start: 104.611
  end: 106.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Thanks for the invitation.
  zh: 感谢邀请。
- start: 106.352
  end: 107.553
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Absolutely!
  zh: 太好了！
- start: 107.853
  end: 112.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Some of our listeners might be asking, Well, what’s a Rapture?
  zh: 我们的一些听众可能会问，被提到底是什么？
- start: 113.103
  end: 123.628
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, for any of our listeners who might not know or think they know, could you just give us a brief explanation of what the Rapture is and maybe a little bit of the controversy around it?
  zh: 为了让那些不了解或认为自己了解的听众明白，您能否简单解释一下什么是被提，以及围绕这个话题的一些争议？
- start: 124.108
  end: 124.568
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Sure!
  zh: 当然可以！
- start: 124.568
  end: 129.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, it comes from a Latin word that means to be snatched, like snatched up.
  zh: 是的，这个词来源于拉丁语，意思是被抓走，就像被提上去一样。
- start: 130.191
  end: 134.172
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s why raptors, like Velociraptors, the dinosaurs, were called that; they were snatchers.
  zh: 这就是为什么猛禽，比如迅猛龙这类恐龙被这样称呼，因为它们是掠食者。
- start: 134.333
  end: 139.502
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And so, in Catholic tradition, it has more to do with being...
  zh: 所以在公教会传统中，这更多是指……
- start: 139.502
  end: 144.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Caught up in ecstasy, so you might talk about St. Catherine of Siena praying and being in a rapture, that kind of thing.
  zh: 陷入灵魂超拔，比如我们说锡耶纳的圣加大利纳祈祷时进入灵魂超拔的状态，就是这样的意思。
- start: 145.604
  end: 154.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: There are some Christian traditions, though, in which it is a notion, even though the word itself in that sense doesn’t appear in Scripture.
  zh: 虽然这个词本身并没有出现在圣经中，但在某些基督教传统中，这是一个概念。
- start: 154.926
  end: 179.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The notion is that in between Jesus' first coming, which was, of course, at Bethlehem as our Savior, and His final second coming in glory, clouds of glory, and with His angels and saints—that second coming as judge—there is, in between, toward the end of time, a secret coming in which He will be invisible; He will be unseen and unheard by the world.
  zh: 这个概念认为在耶稣第一次降临（当然是作为救主在伯利恒降生）和祂最后的荣耀再临（带着荣耀的云彩，与天使和圣徒一同作为审判者降临）之间，在末世时期会有一次隐秘的降临，那时祂是不可见的，世人既看不见也听不见祂。
- start: 179.773
  end: 186.756
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But that true believers will be snatched, you might say, or pulled out of the world into heaven, to go back with Him to heaven.
  zh: 但真正的信徒会被提走，可以说是被从世界中拉到天上，与祂一同回到天堂。
- start: 187.137
  end: 189.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And that will happen.
  zh: 这一定会发生。
- start: 189.998
  end: 192.299
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They disagree over exactly when it will happen.
  zh: 他们对具体发生的时间有分歧。
- start: 192.299
  end: 196.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Some say before the great tribulation at the end of the world, some say in the middle, some say afterwards.
  zh: 有人说是在世界末日大灾难之前，有人说是在中间，有人说是在之后。
- start: 197.742
  end: 207.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So basically, you have this kind of end-times scenario where God’s going to take His faithful followers from the earth, and then all hell at some point will break loose upon the people who are left.
  zh: 所以基本上，这种末世场景是神会把他忠实的追随者从地上带走，然后留下的人将经历可怕的灾难。
- start: 207.205
  end: 208.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that fair to say?
  zh: 这样说对吗？
- start: 209.385
  end: 210.966
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yes, although again, there’s some disagreement.
  zh: 是的，不过还是有一些分歧。
- start: 210.966
  end: 218.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Some folks would say they’re all snatched out before any of the tribulation at the end; others would say in the midway; others would say more toward the end.
  zh: 有些人说信徒会在末世灾难开始前被提走，有些人说是在中间，还有人说是在接近结束时。
- start: 218.688
  end: 227.09
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But the idea is that He comes secretly—Jesus comes secretly and kind of rescues the Church out of what’s happening to the rest of the world.
  zh: 但核心想法是他会秘密降临——耶稣会秘密地来，把教会从即将临到世界其他人身上的灾难中解救出来。
- start: 227.682
  end: 228.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, thank you.
  zh: 是的，谢谢。
- start: 228.723
  end: 235.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I think it’s fair to say that many people on our channel will say Catholics are evil because they don’t believe in the Rapture.
  zh: 我想很多收看我们频道的人会说公教会是邪恶的，因为他们不相信被提。
- start: 235.75
  end: 239.874
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, it’s clearly biblical, but Catholics, you know, don’t follow the Bible.
  zh: 他们说这明明是圣经中的教导，但公教会不遵循圣经。
- start: 239.874
  end: 243.237
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it’s not just Catholics that don’t accept the Rapture, is it?
  zh: 但不接受被提说的不只是公教会，对吧？
- start: 243.237
  end: 251.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, as far as I know, Orthodox don’t accept it, and if I’m not mistaken, most Protestant religions would reject the Rapture as well.
  zh: 据我所知，东正教不接受这个说法，如果我没记错的话，大多数新教宗派也拒绝被提说。
- start: 251.384
  end: 252.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that correct?
  zh: 这说得对吗？
- start: 252.836
  end: 254.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, that’s one of the things I’ve found.
  zh: 是的，这是我发现的情况之一。
- start: 254.537
  end: 256.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I grew up in a tradition where they actually talked about it.
  zh: 我成长的传统中确实谈论被提。
- start: 256.658
  end: 258.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I’m a convert to the Catholic faith.
  zh: 我是皈依公教会的。
- start: 258.359
  end: 267.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: When I started working on my doctorate in Church history and historical theology, it was inevitable that I’d look at this notion in light of history.
  zh: 当我开始攻读教会历史和历史神学博士学位时，从历史角度研究这个概念是不可避免的。
- start: 267.945
  end: 272.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: One of the things I discovered was that it really is not a Catholic-Protestant argument.
  zh: 我发现的一点是，这实际上不是公教和新教之间的争论。
- start: 272.788
  end: 291.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Not only is it not part of the teaching of the Catholic Church, as you said, the Eastern Orthodox Churches don’t accept it, but also even the founders of the Protestant movement—Luther, Calvin, Zwingli—and then later people like Wesley, who founded the Methodist denomination or movement, anyway, none of them believed that.
  zh: 不仅公教会的教导中没有这个，如你所说东正教也不接受，而且新教运动的创始人——路德、加尔文、慈运理，以及后来创立卫理公会或运动的卫斯理，他们都不相信这个说法。
- start: 291.139
  end: 297.101
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They would interpret the passages that are often seen as biblical proof and never mention such a thing.
  zh: 他们在解释那些经常被视为圣经依据的经文时，从未提到过这样的事。
- start: 297.101
  end: 300.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s a very recent development in Church history.
  zh: 这是教会历史上一个非常新近的发展。
- start: 300.102
  end: 301.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The first time—go ahead.
  zh: 第一次——请说。
- start: 301.663
  end: 302.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh, go ahead, please.
  zh: 哦，请您继续。
- start: 303.103
  end: 304.484
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was just going to ask you about that.
  zh: 我正想问您这个问题。
- start: 304.484
  end: 315.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, if it’s not historical and most Christians didn’t accept it, and even Protestant reformers long after the Protestant Reformation didn’t accept it, then, you know, kind of when did it begin?
  zh: 好的，如果这不是历史传统，而且大多数基督徒都不接受，甚至新教改革很久之后的新教改革家也不接受，那么，它是什么时候开始的呢？
- start: 315.458
  end: 317.978
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Who invented it, and how did it come to light?
  zh: 是谁发明的？它是如何出现的？
- start: 318.519
  end: 320.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s a very complicated kind of history.
  zh: 这是一段相当复杂的历史。
- start: 320.499
  end: 326.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You have the ideas you normally meet today, say, in certain fundamentalist Protestant circles.
  zh: 你现在在某些基要派新教圈子里常见的这些观念。
- start: 327.362
  end: 330.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Full-blown belief did not really come out until the 1800s.
  zh: 完整的被提信仰直到19世纪才真正出现。
- start: 330.283
  end: 333.884
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Before that, you might have an occasional person, like in the late 1700s.
  zh: 在此之前，可能偶尔有人提到，比如在18世纪末。
- start: 337.425
  end: 351.599
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Interestingly enough, you had a Jesuit from Chile who taught a kind of rapture, but it was interestingly enough based on the idea that the people who were raptured were the ones who were daily communicants with the Eucharist.
  zh: 有趣的是，有一位智利的耶稣会士教导过一种被提说，但更有趣的是，他认为被提的人是那些每天领圣体的人。
- start: 351.72
  end: 354.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So obviously, that’s not going to be picked up.
  zh: 显然，这种说法不会被采纳。
- start: 355.862
  end: 364.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You’d have an occasional person, Cotton Mather, one of the Puritan divines, that there was some kind of taking the Christians out of the world, but very kind of eccentric, very unusual.
  zh: 偶尔会有人，比如清教徒神学家科顿·马瑟，提到某种形式的把基督徒带离世界的说法，但这很特殊，很不寻常。
- start: 365.148
  end: 384.124
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: What happened in the 1800s is that it became a popular belief among a small circle of a certain kind of Protestants in England, and they themselves were partly influenced by a young woman who had what she thought was a vision of things.
  zh: 19世纪发生的事是，这种说法在英国某些新教小圈子里变得流行起来，他们部分受到一位年轻女子的影响，她声称自己看到了异象。
- start: 384.784
  end: 386.685
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The way she described it was this kind of rapture.
  zh: 她描述的就是这种被提的景象。
- start: 386.685
  end: 393.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It became very popular in those circles, and then what happened is it influenced certain movements in England—Christian movements in England.
  zh: 这在那些圈子里变得很受欢迎，然后影响了英国的一些基督教运动。
- start: 394.187
  end: 402.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: About that time, the American revival movement was one of the ways of revival that was becoming very popular.
  zh: 大约在那个时候，美国的复兴运动成为一种很受欢迎的复兴方式。
- start: 402.758
  end: 408.74
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So you end up having hundreds of thousands of people going to revivals in America from a particular kind of revivalist tradition.
  zh: 结果就是成千上万的人参加了美国的一种特定复兴传统的复兴会。
- start: 409.281
  end: 420.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The Bible teachers kind of crossed the Atlantic, and a lot of the people who believed this notion of the rapture started preaching it at these large revival meetings, and that began to spread.
  zh: 圣经教师们跨越大西洋，许多相信被提说的人开始在这些大型复兴会上传讲这个观念，于是开始传播开来。
- start: 421.172
  end: 435.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then places like Moody Bible Institute, named after Dwight Moody, who was one of the great evangelists of the revival movements, picked it up and began training pastors from all over the country to believe it.
  zh: 然后像慕迪圣经学院这样的地方（以复兴运动的伟大布道家德怀特·慕迪命名）接受了这种说法，并开始培训全国各地的牧师相信这个观点。
- start: 435.44
  end: 449.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: What really pushed it, though, was that there was a particular commentary of the Bible, the King James Bible, that taught maybe just a part of a whole system called dispensationalism.
  zh: 但真正推动它的是一本特别的圣经注释书，是针对英王钦定本的，它教导了时代论体系中的一部分内容。
- start: 449.614
  end: 458.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It would take a long time to go into it, but anyway, in his notes, he just put it as if it were a fact.
  zh: 详细解释需要很长时间，但总之，他在注释中把它当作事实来写。
- start: 458.555
  end: 467.917
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: A lot of folks would read the Bible—sometimes it’s this much text and this much commentary—and they would read it almost as if it’s part of the Bible and think, Oh, well, this must be how it is.
  zh: 很多人读圣经时——有时经文和注释的篇幅差不多——他们几乎把注释当作圣经的一部分来读，想着：哦，一定就是这样的。
- start: 468.217
  end: 479.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And that particular Bible, called the Scofield Bible, after the man who did it—who, by the way, was not a theologian; he was actually a lawyer—is a good keynote to understand.
  zh: 这本特别的圣经，以编写者的名字命名为司可福圣经——顺便说一下，他不是神学家，而是一位律师——这是理解这个问题的一个重要线索。
- start: 479.017
  end: 488.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, the Scofield Bible then became the bestselling Bible in America, with tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of copies sold.
  zh: 是的，司可福圣经后来成为美国最畅销的圣经，售出了几十万甚至上百万册。
- start: 488.28
  end: 491.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: People were reading these notes as if it were just part of Scripture.
  zh: 人们把这些注释当作圣经的一部分来读。
- start: 491.921
  end: 504.464
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So, between the Scofield Bible, the revival meetings, and then certain places like Moody Bible College, where they were training pastors who then went on to teach their people, it became extremely popular in America.
  zh: 所以，在司可福圣经、复兴会，以及像慕迪圣经学院这样培训牧师的地方的影响下，这种观念在美国变得极其流行。
- start: 505.569
  end: 511.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It went to some other places in the world too, but America was kind of the anomaly, both in history and geographically.
  zh: 这种观念也传到了世界其他地方，但美国在历史和地理上都是一个特例。
- start: 512.413
  end: 518.176
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We know so many people here—I do personally—who believe it, and so it kind of seems like part of the norm.
  zh: 我们在这里认识很多相信这种说法的人——我个人就认识很多——所以这似乎成了常态的一部分。
- start: 518.176
  end: 527.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But if you look at the whole span of 2,000 years of Church history and the entire Church, there are more than a billion Christians worldwide who do not believe it.
  zh: 但如果你看教会两千年的历史和整个教会的情况，全世界有超过十亿的基督徒是不相信这种说法的。
- start: 527.982
  end: 530.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So it’s good to have it in context that way.
  zh: 所以从这个角度来看待这个问题很重要。
- start: 530.683
  end: 531.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, absolutely.
  zh: 是的，确实如此。
- start: 531.663
  end: 535.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And like you said, in the 1700s, it was virtually unheard of.
  zh: 就像你说的，在18世纪，这种说法几乎闻所未闻。
- start: 535.865
  end: 537.966
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In the 1800s, it started to get traction.
  zh: 到了19世纪，它才开始获得关注。
- start: 537.966
  end: 543.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And there was something about the Left Behind series too, right?
  zh: 还有《末世迷踪》系列也有关系，对吧？
- start: 543.048
  end: 552.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Would you say the Left Behind series, that fictional book series, really helped popularize this unbiblical theory of the Rapture?
  zh: 您认为《末世迷踪》这部小说系列是否真的帮助推广了这种非圣经的被提理论？
- start: 552.872
  end: 554.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It did for a new generation.
  zh: 对新一代人确实起到了这样的作用。
- start: 554.313
  end: 557.314
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s the kind of idea that goes through cycles, like a lot of things.
  zh: 这种观念像很多事物一样是周期性的。
- start: 557.314
  end: 559.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You know, like this, you know, almost religious fad.
  zh: 你知道，就像是一种宗教潮流。
- start: 559.435
  end: 561.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But this is one with some staying power.
  zh: 但这种观念有一定的持久力。
- start: 562.43
  end: 569.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: What will happen, especially with the kind of folks you have on TV—the TV preachers who will push it for some of the stuff—it’s a whole industry.
  zh: 特别是那些电视传道人，他们在电视上推广这些东西——这已经成了一个产业。
- start: 569.376
  end: 570.356
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I could go into that.
  zh: 我可以详细说说这个。
- start: 570.957
  end: 575.701
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They push this and get people to believe it, and then they sell their books and their videos, and that’s kind of their industry.
  zh: 他们推广这个让人相信，然后销售他们的书籍和视频，这就是他们的产业。
- start: 575.701
  end: 582.587
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But what happened was there probably had been back in the 70s a big push.
  zh: 但在70年代就有一次大规模的推广。
- start: 582.587
  end: 593.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I mean, Hal Lindsey wrote a book called The Late Great Planet Earth, and that became a bestseller with so many million copies sold.
  zh: 我是说，哈尔·林赛写了一本叫《晚期的大地球》的书，成为畅销书，售出了数百万册。
- start: 593.39
  end: 601.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That was the time when I was graduating from high school and just becoming a Christian, so that became one way in which it got popularized.
  zh: 那时我正好高中毕业并刚刚成为基督徒，所以那是它流行的一种方式。
- start: 601.153
  end: 615.718
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But here we are, 30 years later, around the turn of this last century, around the year 2000, and a new generation gets popularized by a couple of authors who wrote the Left Behind series.
  zh: 但到了30年后，在上个世纪末，大约2000年前后，《末世迷踪》系列的作者们又让这个观念在新一代人中流行起来。
- start: 615.718
  end: 622.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They’ve been part of their teaching all along, and just the Left Behind books were novels that built on the premise that Jesus did come back secretly.
  zh: 这一直是他们教导的一部分，而《末世迷踪》系列小说就是建立在耶稣会秘密再来这个前提之上。
- start: 622.725
  end: 626.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And they ended up making a feature film out of it, which was really popular.
  zh: 最后他们还拍成了电影，非常受欢迎。
- start: 627.148
  end: 633.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They did all kinds of stuff—children's books—and I could go on and on, but it became quite an industry.
  zh: 他们做了各种各样的东西——儿童读物等等——我可以一直说下去，这确实成了一个产业。
- start: 633.132
  end: 644.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It was at that time when more than ever it began to kind of, what do I want to say, leak into Catholic circles.
  zh: 正是在那时，这种观念开始前所未有地渗透到公教圈子里。
- start: 644.94
  end: 653.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Catholics were watching the TV stuff, watching the films, reading the books, and of course, again, it’s not Catholic teaching.
  zh: 公教徒在看这些电视节目、电影和书籍，但当然，这再次强调，这不是公教的教导。
- start: 653.721
  end: 663.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So what happened was right around that time, you had, for instance, the bishops of Illinois get together and make a statement saying that this is not Catholic teaching.
  zh: 所以在那时候，比如伊利诺伊州的主教们就聚在一起发表声明，说这不是公教的教导。
- start: 663.604
  end: 672.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We understand that these books have been given as assigned reading in Catholic schools and they’re in Catholic school libraries; they’re not to be there.
  zh: 我们发现这些书被作为公教学校的指定读物，也在公教学校图书馆里，但它们不应该在那里。
- start: 674.248
  end: 687.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: One particular TV preacher—I won’t name him—was trying to woo Catholics to his audience, and he said, Oh, the Catholic Church teaches us that kind of thing, and the Pope embraces this.
  zh: 有一个电视传道人——我就不指名道姓了——试图吸引公教徒成为他的观众，他说，哦，公教会教导这些东西，教宗也接受这个。
- start: 689.066
  end: 698.65
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then I had Matt Pinto, founder of Ascension Press, approach me and say, You know, there’s no Catholic book responding to all this.
  zh: 然后升天出版社的创始人马特·平托来找我说，你知道，还没有公教的书来回应这些。
- start: 698.65
  end: 699.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Why don’t you do it?
  zh: 你为什么不写一本呢？
- start: 701.011
  end: 704.732
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That had been one of my specializations in my Church history studies, so I said, Go for it.
  zh: 这正好是我在教会历史研究中的专长之一，所以我说，好啊。
- start: 704.892
  end: 711.677
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I wrote The Rapture Trap, which came out in, I think, 2001, and it’s still in print, which is unusual for a Catholic paperback.
  zh: 我写了《被提陷阱》，我记得是2001年出版的，现在还在印刷，这对公教平装书来说很不寻常。
- start: 712.738
  end: 714.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So it was like the first book.
  zh: 所以这算是第一本这样的书。
- start: 714.159
  end: 718.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then right after, Carl Olson, one of my friends, and some other folks began to also write about it.
  zh: 之后，我的朋友卡尔·奥尔森和其他一些人也开始写这个主题。
- start: 718.383
  end: 724.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So it wasn’t just my book, but others that began to kind of say, Hey, let’s look at this in a historical and theological context.
  zh: 所以不只是我的书，其他人也开始说，嘿，让我们从历史和神学的角度来看这个问题。
- start: 724.828
  end: 728.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It really is not biblical; it’s really kind of eccentric historically.
  zh: 这真的不符合圣经，从历史角度来看也很特异。
- start: 731.293
  end: 739.583
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So I even had that same TV preacher get on in one of his episodes with my book and claim that I didn’t believe in the Second Coming because I didn’t believe in the Rapture.
  zh: 所以那个电视传道人甚至在他的一集节目中拿着我的书，声称因为我不相信被提，所以我不相信基督再来。
- start: 739.583
  end: 741.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It got really messy.
  zh: 事情变得很混乱。
- start: 741.264
  end: 746.786
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I approached him privately, tried to, and said, Let’s get together and talk this out as brothers; that’s not true.
  zh: 我试图私下接触他，说，让我们作为弟兄坐下来谈一谈，这不是事实。
- start: 747.106
  end: 750.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He stonewalled, but that’s neither here nor there.
  zh: 他采取了回避态度，不过这都不重要了。
- start: 750.248
  end: 757.191
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Anyway, there were some people so deeply invested in it that they could not even consider the possibility that the Rapture is not true.
  zh: 总之，有些人对此投入太深，甚至无法考虑被提说可能不是真实的这种可能性。
- start: 757.691
  end: 763.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now we’re going to get to the Bible verses that some Protestants try to use in a minute.
  zh: 现在我们马上要谈到一些新教徒试图引用的圣经经文。
- start: 763.77
  end: 768.094
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, they utilize three or four verses to try to prove that there was a Rapture.
  zh: 你知道，他们用三四节经文来试图证明被提的存在。
- start: 768.335
  end: 773.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But before we do, why don’t Catholics and most Protestants accept it?
  zh: 但在此之前，为什么公教徒和大多数新教徒不接受它？
- start: 773.78
  end: 779.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, maybe this is a rhetorical, easy question, but why don’t they accept the Rapture?
  zh: 我是说，也许这是个简单的修辞性问题，但为什么他们不接受被提说？
- start: 779.705
  end: 782.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What are some of the problems with the Rapture?
  zh: 被提说有什么问题？
- start: 782.988
  end: 789.013
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Well, first of all, tradition is important to us.
  zh: 首先，传统对我们来说很重要。
- start: 789.013
  end: 804.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We don’t think that some notion like this is going to be done by some kind of private revelation to a young girl in a vision that puts out this doctrine that is contrary to what the Church has always taught and the way the Scripture has always been believed—not just by Catholics, but by Orthodox and Protestants.
  zh: 我们不认为这样的观念会通过某个年轻女孩的私人启示和异象产生，因为这种教义与教会一直以来的教导和圣经一直以来被理解的方式相违背——不仅是公教，还包括东正教和新教。
- start: 807.768
  end: 812.131
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: When you go to look at the verses that are used to support it in Scripture, they don’t support it.
  zh: 当你去看那些被用来支持这种说法的圣经经文时，会发现它们并不支持这种说法。
- start: 812.671
  end: 816.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They’ve always been interpreted other ways, not just by Catholics but by the others I mentioned.
  zh: 这些经文一直以来都有其他的解释方式，不仅是公教，我提到的其他教会也是如此。
- start: 818.466
  end: 824.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: In fact, it ends up pressing against certain things that we know to be Christian truth.
  zh: 事实上，它最终与我们所知的基督教真理相抵触。
- start: 825.611
  end: 835.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: When it has been popular, it’s often led to spiritual and social consequences that are bad—fruit is the best way to put it.
  zh: 当它流行时，常常导致不良的属灵和社会后果——用结果来形容最恰当。
- start: 835.878
  end: 837.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So, kind of for all those reasons.
  zh: 所以，基于所有这些原因。
- start: 837.459
  end: 843.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But the main reason is that this is not the faith that was received from the Apostles and has been handed down.
  zh: 但主要原因是这不是从使徒们那里接受并传下来的信仰。
- start: 843.303
  end: 854.382
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s a very eccentric, late-in-history faith development that comes in part from, you know, some young woman’s vision and ecstasy, and then others too kind of picked up on that.
  zh: 这是一个非常特异的、历史晚期的信仰发展，部分来自于一个年轻女子的异象和狂喜，然后其他人也跟着接受了。
- start: 854.843
  end: 865.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So basically, it’s a tradition of man—to quote Mark 7:7—or in this case, a tradition of woman, but it doesn’t come from Jesus.
  zh: 所以基本上，这是人的遗传——引用马可福音7:7—或者在这种情况下是女人的遗传，但它不是来自耶稣。
- start: 865.812
  end: 873.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, and I mean, you could also say, all right, you had that idea kind of in the Jesuit from Chile, but again, it wasn’t really similar.
  zh: 是的，你也可以说，好吧，那个智利耶稣会士也有类似的想法，但实际上并不相同。
- start: 874.139
  end: 892.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The interesting connection I feel to make is that that Jesuit’s work on what he thought was—I don’t think he ever called it Rapture—but this withdrawal of Christians to faithful communicants, daily communicants, that book was translated by a man in England who then became a promoter of the Rapture doctrine.
  zh: 我觉得有趣的联系是，那位耶稣会士的著作——我想他从未称之为被提——而是关于基督徒中忠实领圣体者、每日领圣体者的撤离，这本书被一个英国人翻译，而这个人后来成了被提教义的推广者。
- start: 893.027
  end: 895.689
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So you have to wonder if he was influenced by this thing.
  zh: 所以你不得不怀疑他是否受到了这个的影响。
- start: 895.689
  end: 901.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And by the way, the Church condemned the book that the Jesuit had written, of course.
  zh: 顺便说一下，当然，教会谴责了那位耶稣会士写的书。
- start: 901.632
  end: 903.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But things like this tend to have...
  zh: 但这类事情往往会有……
- start: 903.233
  end: 915.737
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So it’s not just the girl in the vision, but this guy picking up this thing from a kind of renegade Jesuit and then trying to look in Scripture to find some place where they could say, Oh yeah, that’s what that’s talking about.
  zh: 所以不仅仅是那个看见异象的女孩，还有这个人从一个叛逆的耶稣会士那里得到这个想法，然后试图在圣经中找到一些地方来说，哦，是的，这就是经文所说的。
- start: 915.777
  end: 918.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s how ideas like that often get going.
  zh: 这就是这类想法通常是如何开始的。
- start: 918.739
  end: 922.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, and you mentioned Scripture, and I just mentioned it a minute ago.
  zh: 是的，你提到了圣经，我刚才也提到了。
- start: 923.083
  end: 936.973
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Could you mention or talk about perhaps some of the top verses that some denominations and non-denominational churches will use to try to prove the Rapture, and maybe talk about why they don’t hold up?
  zh: 您能否谈谈一些宗派和非宗派教会用来试图证明被提的主要经文，以及为什么这些论证站不住脚？
- start: 936.973
  end: 944.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, why Christians throughout most of history did not translate them that way, and it’s a very new invention.
  zh: 你知道，为什么历史上大多数基督徒都不是那样解释这些经文的，这是一个很新的创造。
- start: 944.618
  end: 952.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, there are a couple of places in 1 and 2 Thessalonians where St. Paul is talking about the Lord’s second coming.
  zh: 是的，在帖撒罗尼迦前后书中有几处地方，圣保罗谈到了主的再来。
- start: 952.783
  end: 966.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 17, he talks about the Lord’s returning and that we’ll be caught up in the air to meet Him.
  zh: 在帖撒罗尼迦前书4:17和帖撒罗尼迦后书2:1和17中，他谈到主的再来，以及我们将被提到空中与他相遇。
- start: 966.779
  end: 969.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So they’ll say, Okay, see, it doesn’t say Rapture, but that’s what it is.
  zh: 所以他们会说，好的，看，虽然没有说被提这个词，但这就是被提。
- start: 969.66
  end: 972.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We’re being caught up out of the world and taken out.
  zh: 我们将被提出这个世界，被带走。
- start: 972.862
  end: 982.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Of course, the problem is that when he describes those, all the words he’s using, with the angel, trumpet, and shouts and stuff, are all the same things that he uses throughout to mean the final coming.
  zh: 当然，问题在于当他描述这些时，他使用的所有词语，包括天使、号筒和呼喊等，都是他一直用来描述最后再来的相同词语。
- start: 985.167
  end: 992.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So this is not talking about something separate; this is talking about some kind of event when Jesus finally comes in glory at the end—not secretly.
  zh: 所以这不是在说一个独立的事件，而是在说耶稣最后在荣耀中公开再来的事件——不是秘密的。
- start: 992.628
  end: 1001.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s anything but secret, like the lightning coming from east to west, as Jesus said, and the sound of the trumpet to the angels and all that.
  zh: 这绝不是秘密的，就像耶稣所说的闪电从东边发出直照到西边，还有天使的号筒声等等。
- start: 1001.05
  end: 1006.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He’s coming with His angels and saints; there’s nothing secret about that.
  zh: 他要与众天使和圣徒一同来临，这一点都不秘密。
- start: 1006.691
  end: 1009.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: In fact, you know, so I mean that leaves you with a problem.
  zh: 事实上，你知道，这就给你留下了一个问题。
- start: 1009.051
  end: 1014.632
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: All right, so what does it mean that we’re kind of caught up to meet Him when He appears?
  zh: 好吧，那么当他显现时我们被提到空中与他相遇是什么意思呢？
- start: 1014.752
  end: 1018.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Here’s the interesting thing, and you can find this in St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century.
  zh: 有趣的是，你可以在四世纪的圣金口若望的著作中找到这个解释。
- start: 1018.653
  end: 1020.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He’s already talking about this in this passage.
  zh: 他已经在解释这段经文了。
- start: 1021.084
  end: 1029.729
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: During that time and during the time of Jesus, there was something that was called the perugia, meaning in Greek an appearance or appearing.
  zh: 在那个时期和耶稣时代，有一种称为perugia的事物，在希腊语中意为显现或出现。
- start: 1030.41
  end: 1046.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It was a popular custom in the Mediterranean world where if you had either someone who was royalty or a general who had just had a great conquest, they would be welcomed into a big walled city with a parade to honor them.
  zh: 这是地中海世界的一种流行习俗，当一位王室成员或刚获得重大胜利的将军到来时，人们会用游行来欢迎他们进入这座大城。
- start: 1047.7
  end: 1050.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: As they came into the city, it was called the perugia, an appearance.
  zh: 当他们进入城市时，这被称为perugia，即显现。
- start: 1050.967
  end: 1055.89
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The people of the city would go out to meet them and then escort them back in.
  zh: 城里的人会出城迎接他们，然后护送他们进城。
- start: 1057.091
  end: 1062.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Apontixis is what was called the meeting—going out to meet them—and perugia was the name of the appearance.
  zh: Apontixis是指这种迎接——出去相遇，而perugia是指显现。
- start: 1063.114
  end: 1065.495
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Those are the words being used by St. Paul there.
  zh: 这些就是圣保罗在那里使用的词。
- start: 1066.756
  end: 1083.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: 'If you think about it, the Gospel story of Palm Sunday is precisely that: Jesus is seen as a king who’s coming into the city, so the people go out to meet Him, and they put their garments down and have the palm branches and all the other things, and then they escort Him back in.'
  zh: 如果你想想看，棕枝主日的福音故事正是如此：耶稣被视为进城的君王，人们出去迎接他，铺上衣服，拿着棕树枝等物，然后护送他进城。
- start: 1083.565
  end: 1089.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It gave the people a chance to kind of, you know, take part in the party, have fun in the parade.
  zh: 这给了人们一个机会参与庆典，在游行中欢庆。
- start: 1090.711
  end: 1102.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: In fact, St. Paul then uses this in other places—the imagery of how Jesus took captivity captive and made a spectacle of all the demonic powers and then gave gifts to men.
  zh: 事实上，圣保罗在其他地方也使用了这个意象——耶稣如何掳掠了仇敌，公开羞辱了魔鬼的权势，然后将恩赐赐给人。
- start: 1102.159
  end: 1119.507
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s from the same thing because what the conquering generals would do in this parade was they would bring the leaders of the enemy they had just conquered in, and then they would take the loot from the enemy and give it to the people as a way of, you know, brown-nosing and getting their support and dividing up and giving them gifts.
  zh: 这来自同样的传统，因为征服的将军在这种游行中会带着他们刚征服的敌军首领，然后把从敌人那里缴获的战利品分给百姓，以此讨好他们，获得支持。
- start: 1119.627
  end: 1120.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s exactly what he’s talking about.
  zh: 这正是他所说的。
- start: 1120.967
  end: 1126.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So it’s a very common thing there, and as early as the 4th century, St. John Chrysostom is saying, Yeah, that’s what this is talking about.
  zh: 所以这是一个很普遍的事情，早在四世纪，圣金口若望就说，是的，这就是经文所说的。
- start: 1126.949
  end: 1139.062
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Jesus' perugia—He’s like this great king that St. Paul has alluded to, coming into earth at the end, and those who love Him and want to receive Him come out to greet Him.
  zh: 耶稣的显现——他就像圣保罗所暗指的伟大君王，在末日降临地上，那些爱他并愿意接受他的人出去迎接他。
- start: 1139.822
  end: 1142.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: As you said, there’s nothing secret about it, right?
  zh: 就像你说的，这一点都不秘密，对吧？
- start: 1143.505
  end: 1146.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Right, go ahead.
  zh: 对，请继续。
- start: 1147.107
  end: 1158.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, I was going to comment on that secret part because it almost seems like Jesus came, but then He’s going to come again secretly, and then He’s going to come again at the end of time.
  zh: 是的，我想评论一下那个秘密部分，因为这似乎是说耶稣来过一次，然后他要秘密地再来一次，然后在末世还要再来一次。
- start: 1158.754
  end: 1164.729
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So it’s not the second coming that traditional Christianity understands; it almost seems like it’s a third coming.
  zh: 所以这不是传统基督教理解的第二次来临，这几乎像是第三次来临。
- start: 1164.85
  end: 1167.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Exactly, and that’s been, you know, the critique all along.
  zh: 没错，这一直以来都是批评的焦点。
- start: 1167.53
  end: 1177.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You know, from folks who are even Protestant scholars who look at this and reject the notion of a Rapture say, Look, there’s no way you can talk about these as...
  zh: 你知道，即使是研究这个问题并拒绝被提说法的新教学者也说，看，你不能这样解释这些...
- start: 1177.252
  end: 1182.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Because the argument would be back, Okay, well, it’s not really two more comings; it’s two phases of the second coming.
  zh: 因为他们会反驳说，好吧，这不是两次额外的来临，而是第二次来临的两个阶段。
- start: 1182.773
  end: 1187.034
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But even, you know, Protestant scholars just say, No, you really can’t get that from the text.
  zh: 但是，你知道，新教学者也说，不，你真的无法从经文中得出这种解释。
- start: 1187.034
  end: 1190.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It is a third coming.
  zh: 这确实是第三次来临。
- start: 1190.035
  end: 1197.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He comes and goes back to phase, you know, phase one of another when He has another coming.
  zh: 他来了又走，回到另一个阶段，你知道，当他再来时的第一个阶段。
- start: 1197.938
  end: 1202.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But yeah, you know, it’s just like, No, that’s a new idea.
  zh: 但是，你知道，这就像是，不，这是个新想法。
- start: 1202.599
  end: 1204.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So that’s one set of passages.
  zh: 这是一组经文。
- start: 1204.479
  end: 1225.843
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Another one that you’ll hear the most frequently, I think, and this is where the words left behind come from that gave the title to the series, the books, and the movies, is that in the Gospel of Matthew 24:37 and following verses, Jesus is in the middle of what’s called the little apocalypse in the Gospel.
  zh: 我想另一个你最常听到的，也是《末世迷踪》系列书籍和电影标题的来源，是马太福音24:37及其后的经文，耶稣正在讲述福音书中所谓的小启示录。
- start: 1226.203
  end: 1232.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: His apostles come to Him and say—they’re talking about the stones of the temple—and He says it’s going to be torn down one day.
  zh: 他的使徒们来到他面前说——他们谈论圣殿的石头——他说有一天这些都要被拆毁。
- start: 1233.547
  end: 1237.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So they say, Well, when will that happen, number one?
  zh: 所以他们说，那么，这第一件事什么时候会发生？
- start: 1237.049
  end: 1239.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And number two, what will be the sign of your coming?
  zh: 第二，你来临的预兆是什么？
- start: 1240.01
  end: 1248.274
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Apparently, they believed—and I think it was pretty common then—that when the tearing down of the temple would come and all that, that would be the time when He appears.
  zh: 显然，他们相信——我想当时这种想法很普遍——当圣殿被拆毁的时候，就是他显现的时候。
- start: 1248.274
  end: 1250.195
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And He does that, right?
  zh: 他确实这样做了，对吧？
- start: 1250.453
  end: 1254.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But when He responds, it begins to be clear He’s talking about two different events.
  zh: 但当他回答时，很明显他在谈论两个不同的事件。
- start: 1254.775
  end: 1258.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We know from history, you know, in 70 AD, Jerusalem gets torn down.
  zh: 我们从历史知道，在公元70年，耶路撒冷被毁。
- start: 1258.576
  end: 1259.737
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s the judgment of the people.
  zh: 那是对百姓的审判。
- start: 1259.737
  end: 1265.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s when He says, When you see the troops surrounding the city, get out, and all that happened.
  zh: 这就是他说的，当你们看见军队围城的时候，就要逃出去，这些都发生了。
- start: 1265.699
  end: 1269.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: 'But that answers the first question: when will be the time that this happens?'
  zh: 这回答了第一个问题：这事什么时候会发生？
- start: 1269.321
  end: 1273.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: When you see the city being surrounded by troops, that’s the day of judgment—get out.
  zh: 当你看见军队围城时，那就是审判之日——赶快逃离。
- start: 1273.363
  end: 1276.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But then He goes on to talk about things at the very end when He returns.
  zh: 但接着他又谈到他再来时末世的事。
- start: 1277.059
  end: 1281.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So He’s answering the second question, but you can’t confuse those two things.
  zh: 所以他在回答第二个问题，但不能把这两件事混淆。
- start: 1283.204
  end: 1285.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So that’s the passage, the context of it.
  zh: 这就是这段经文的背景。
- start: 1285.385
  end: 1306.12
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But what they focus on is where Jesus says that at the time of the judgment there will be, for instance, two women in the fields, and one will be taken and the other one left behind; two people sleeping in a bed, one will be taken and the other left behind, and all these things.
  zh: 但他们关注的是耶稣说在审判的时候，例如，两个女人在田里，一个被取去，一个撇下；两个人在床上，一个被取去，一个撇下，诸如此类。
- start: 1307.951
  end: 1323.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: By confusing those two things, they say, Oh, see, that means that in the secret Rapture they’re going to be snatched out of the bed, snatched out of the field, snatched from the mill, or wherever it is that they are, and the righteous one will be taken away and the evil one left for judgment.
  zh: 通过混淆这两件事，他们说，看，这意味着在秘密被提时，人们会从床上、田里、磨坊或任何地方被提走，义人被带走，恶人留下等候审判。
- start: 1324.036
  end: 1334.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So first of all, I would say—and I think the great tradition of the Church, not just Catholic—is that no, that’s talking about judgment coming suddenly.
  zh: 首先，我要说——我认为这是教会的伟大传统，不仅仅是公教——不，这是在谈论审判突然来临。
- start: 1335.214
  end: 1339.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: There will be people who die and people who survive when Jerusalem is destroyed.
  zh: 当耶路撒冷被毁时，会有人死去，也有人存活。
- start: 1340.275
  end: 1344.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But even if it were the final judgment, let’s just grant that.
  zh: 但即使是最后的审判，让我们就假设是这样。
- start: 1345.296
  end: 1354.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: 'The key here is that Jesus says it will be as it was in the days of Noah: one will be taken and one will be left behind.'
  zh: 关键是耶稣说这将如同挪亚的日子：一个被取去，一个撇下。
- start: 1355.018
  end: 1359.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Okay, in the days of Noah, who was taken away in judgment?
  zh: 好，在挪亚的日子，谁在审判中被取去？
- start: 1359.198
  end: 1360.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s what He’s talking about.
  zh: 这就是他所说的。
- start: 1360.079
  end: 1363.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s taken away in judgment, not snatched into the air.
  zh: 是在审判中被取去，不是被提到空中。
- start: 1363.41
  end: 1365.931
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: In the days of Noah, who was taken away?
  zh: 在挪亚的日子，谁被取去？
- start: 1366.951
  end: 1369.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The wicked were taken away; they were washed away by the flood.
  zh: 恶人被取去，他们被洪水冲走。
- start: 1369.933
  end: 1371.993
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They were drowned; they were lost.
  zh: 他们被淹死，他们灭亡了。
- start: 1372.514
  end: 1376.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The ones left behind were the righteous—Noah and his family.
  zh: 留下的是义人——挪亚和他的家人。
- start: 1377.015
  end: 1384.619
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So if Jesus says this kind of judgment is about those like the days of Noah, they’ve got it exactly opposite.
  zh: 所以如果耶稣说这种审判如同挪亚的日子，他们完全理解错了。
- start: 1384.619
  end: 1393.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s not that the righteous will be taken away and the wicked left behind; it’s the wicked who will be taken away in judgment and the righteous left behind.
  zh: 不是义人被取去而恶人留下，而是恶人在审判中被取去，义人留下。
- start: 1393.717
  end: 1394.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And we would agree with that.
  zh: 我们都同意这一点。
- start: 1394.758
  end: 1395.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yes, that’s what happens.
  zh: 是的，就是这样发生的。
- start: 1395.859
  end: 1396.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s a judgment.
  zh: 这是一个审判。
- start: 1396.8
  end: 1405.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Finally, when He says to the goats, Go to the place before you go to hell, basically, you’re going off to judgment.
  zh: 最后，当他对山羊说，在你们下地狱之前去那个地方，基本上就是说你们要去接受审判。
- start: 1405.007
  end: 1407.749
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They are taken away to judgment then.
  zh: 那时他们就被带去接受审判。
- start: 1407.99
  end: 1408.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s very interesting.
  zh: 这很有意思。
- start: 1408.67
  end: 1415.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Forever, that’s very interesting because the Bible doesn’t say; it just says one will be taken and one will be left.
  zh: 确实很有意思，因为圣经只说一个被取去，一个撇下。
- start: 1415.515
  end: 1417.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn’t say, you know, good or evil.
  zh: 它没有说，你知道，是好人还是坏人。
- start: 1417.576
  end: 1424.802
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They just assume it’s good people, perhaps based off the erroneous interpretations of Thessalonians.
  zh: 他们只是假设是好人被取去，可能是基于对帖撒罗尼迦书的错误解释。
- start: 1424.802
  end: 1430.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it definitely distinctly compares it and says it’s going to be the same as the days of Noah.
  zh: 但它明确地作了比较，说这将如同挪亚的日子。
- start: 1430.506
  end: 1435.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And as you just said, the evil people were the ones who were taken, and the righteous were left.
  zh: 就像你刚才说的，恶人是被取去的，义人是留下的。
- start: 1435.57
  end: 1437.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They do it completely backwards.
  zh: 他们完全理解反了。
- start: 1437.812
  end: 1439.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think that’s so interesting.
  zh: 我觉得这太有意思了。
- start: 1439.42
  end: 1441.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And taken away, not being snatched out of the air.
  zh: 而且是被带走，不是被提到空中。
- start: 1441.4
  end: 1445.581
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Nobody got snatched out of the air, you know, into heaven in Noah’s day.
  zh: 你知道，在挪亚的日子没有人被提到空中进入天堂。
- start: 1445.601
  end: 1446.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But who did get taken away?
  zh: 但谁被带走了？
- start: 1446.902
  end: 1450.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They were taken away in judgment, washed away by the flood, by the judgment of God.
  zh: 他们在审判中被带走，被洪水冲走，被神的审判带走。
- start: 1450.642
  end: 1453.523
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, very powerful, very frightening.
  zh: 是的，非常有力量，非常可怕。
- start: 1453.523
  end: 1461.845
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: 'Keep in mind that’s what will happen at His second coming: the wicked will be judged and taken away to eternal misery.'
  zh: 要记住这就是他第二次来临时将要发生的事：恶人将受审判并被带去永远的痛苦中。
- start: 1461.845
  end: 1472.255
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So interesting that for basically over 1,800 years, virtually every Christian in existence ever always associated these verses with the second coming of Christ.
  zh: 很有趣的是，在超过1800年的时间里，几乎所有存在过的基督徒都把这些经文与基督的第二次来临联系在一起。
- start: 1472.255
  end: 1482.101
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then a couple of individuals—who we’ll just say one of the women, for example—who have no biblical training and maybe some others as well, just completely change that.
  zh: 然后几个人——比如说其中一个女子——他们没有圣经训练，也许还有其他人，就完全改变了这种理解。
- start: 1482.101
  end: 1488.328
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Somehow, they start to preach that, and it slowly starts to, like a trickle effect, catch on.
  zh: 不知怎的，他们开始传讲这个，然后慢慢地，像涓涓细流一样开始流传开来。
- start: 1488.328
  end: 1491.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s why we’re doing this show, you know, because many people are sincere.
  zh: 这就是为什么我们要做这个节目，你知道，因为很多人是真诚的。
- start: 1491.809
  end: 1498.151
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They sincerely believe this is biblical; they sincerely think this is going to happen, and they really just don’t know that it’s not.
  zh: 他们真诚地相信这是合乎圣经的，真诚地认为这会发生，他们真的只是不知道事实并非如此。
- start: 1498.151
  end: 1500.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They don’t know the difference because they’ve never been told.
  zh: 他们不知道区别，因为从来没有人告诉过他们。
- start: 1500.631
  end: 1507.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we kind of want to reverse that message for anyone who’s confused by it and help them to see what the true Christian tradition is.
  zh: 所以我们想要为那些被这个困惑的人纠正这个信息，帮助他们看到真正的基督教传统是什么。
- start: 1507.893
  end: 1518.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, that’s, you know, and that’s one reason why I work my head off to get a PhD in historical theology, because in Church history, that’s so useful.
  zh: 是的，你知道，这也是为什么我拼命工作获得历史神学博士学位的原因之一，因为在教会历史中，这太有用了。
- start: 1519.184
  end: 1520.885
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You just have the book sitting in front of you.
  zh: 你面前就放着这本书。
- start: 1520.885
  end: 1523.465
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: It’s a great book; it’s the book of books.
  zh: 这是一本伟大的书，是书中之书。
- start: 1523.786
  end: 1526.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But when you go to interpret it, you need help.
  zh: 但当你去解释它时，你需要帮助。
- start: 1526.527
  end: 1536.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: People can take it in a thousand directions, and one of the first places to look is how has the Church, Christians in general, even interpreted this over all the centuries?
  zh: 人们可以把它解释成千种方向，而首先要看的一点是教会，一般的基督徒，在这些世纪以来是如何解释这些的？
- start: 1536.79
  end: 1540.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You begin to see, oh, this notion is eccentric; it’s late.
  zh: 你开始明白，哦，这个观念是特异的，是后来才有的。
- start: 1540.291
  end: 1544.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Nobody even thought of that until relatively recently.
  zh: 直到最近才有人想到这个。
- start: 1544.692
  end: 1547.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: For some folks, if it’s been around 200 years, well, that’s forever.
  zh: 对某些人来说，如果存在了200年，好吧，那就是永远了。
- start: 1547.033
  end: 1555.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But I remember talking to a guy one time who, very without even realizing the irony of what he was saying, said, Well, what are you studying?
  zh: 但我记得有一次和一个人谈话，他甚至没有意识到他说的话有多么讽刺，他说，那么，你在研究什么？
- start: 1555.183
  end: 1558.265
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And he was—I don’t even know who Chris is—he said, What are you studying?
  zh: 他说——我甚至不知道克里斯是谁——他说，你在研究什么？
- start: 1558.265
  end: 1560.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I said, Well, right now I’m studying the Church Fathers.
  zh: 我说，嗯，我现在正在研究教父。
- start: 1560.726
  end: 1564.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He said, Oh yeah, I like those guys, like Moody, like I mentioned a while ago, and stuff.
  zh: 他说，哦是的，我喜欢那些人，比如我刚才提到的慕迪之类的。
- start: 1564.149
  end: 1571.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And he named all these 1800s revivalists as Church Fathers, and I thought, okay, we need some more Church history here.
  zh: 他把所有这些19世纪的复兴运动家都称为教父，我想，好吧，我们这里需要多学习一些教会历史。
- start: 1571.754
  end: 1574.896
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, and I’m not trying to dismiss it or judge them.
  zh: 是的，我并不是想否定或评判他们。
- start: 1574.896
  end: 1580.464
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I mean, our culture in general has given up so much history and so much study.
  zh: 我是说，我们的文化普遍放弃了太多的历史和研究。
- start: 1581.405
  end: 1593.151
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: One thing I learned—my mom had Alzheimer’s—and one of the things I learned for an individual, that’s also true of a society and culture, is that if you lose your memory, you lose your identity.
  zh: 我学到的一件事——我妈妈患有阿尔茨海默症——我对个人学到的一件事，对社会和文化也是如此，就是如果你失去记忆，你就失去了身份。
- start: 1593.411
  end: 1594.312
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s so important.
  zh: 这太重要了。
- start: 1594.312
  end: 1604.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Memory is critical to identity because there came a time when she, for much of her past, could not remember who she was.
  zh: 记忆对身份认同至关重要，因为到了某个时候，她对过去的大部分记忆都消失了，不记得自己是谁。
- start: 1604.177
  end: 1608.104
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I feel like our culture is at that place in many ways.
  zh: 我觉得我们的文化在很多方面都处于这种状态。
- start: 1608.104
  end: 1614.749
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I’ve taught college students who come in, and they have no sense of history at all—history from the last two years.
  zh: 我教过的大学生们，他们完全没有历史感——甚至对过去两年的历史都不了解。
- start: 1614.749
  end: 1622.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They would hear, The people, the people, the people from the earth, you know, who said that?
  zh: 他们会听到'人民，人民，地上的人民'，你知道，他们会问是谁说的？
- start: 1622.895
  end: 1629.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And they would kind of guess George Washington, and then afterward they said, During what?
  zh: 他们会猜是乔治·华盛顿说的，然后他们会问，是在什么时候？
- start: 1629.42
  end: 1645.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Was it during World War I? They had no idea who said it, and they even had no idea that Lincoln was not with World War I or that Washington wasn’t with the Civil War.
  zh: 是在第一次世界大战期间吗？他们不知道是谁说的，甚至不知道林肯不是第一次世界大战时期的人，华盛顿也不是内战时期的人。
- start: 1645.358
  end: 1650.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I thought, oh my goodness, so we’ve got to learn; we’ve got to help people to learn their history.
  zh: 我想，天啊，我们必须要学习，我们必须帮助人们学习他们的历史。
- start: 1650.661
  end: 1654.023
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And I would even add on to that, and it’s amazing the context it gives you.
  zh: 我还要补充一点，历史给你提供的背景真是令人惊叹。
- start: 1654.583
  end: 1655.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, absolutely.
  zh: 是的，绝对是这样。
- start: 1655.704
  end: 1664.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I definitely would add on to that—no disrespect intended—but for Protestant religions as well, they used to be part of the Church of Christ before Luther broke away.
  zh: 我还要补充一点——无意冒犯——对新教来说也是如此，在路德分离之前，他们曾是基督教会的一部分。
- start: 1664.984
  end: 1674.193
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For a long time, they remembered that history, but subsequently, they’ve just forgotten that history, in a sense forgotten who they are and what the real truth of Christ is.
  zh: 很长一段时间，他们记得这段历史，但后来，他们就忘记了这段历史，某种意义上忘记了他们是谁，忘记了基督的真理是什么。
- start: 1674.193
  end: 1675.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think that’s interesting.
  zh: 我觉得这很有意思。
- start: 1675.894
  end: 1681.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Many Protestants even disagree on this, and maybe this is the last thing that we can talk about today.
  zh: 许多新教徒在这一点上也有分歧，也许这是我们今天要讨论的最后一个话题。
- start: 1681.719
  end: 1686.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But, you know, this kind of has a lot to do with the end of the world, the second coming of Christ.
  zh: 但是，你知道，这与世界末日、基督的第二次来临有很大关系。
- start: 1687.244
  end: 1691.647
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Some people say that, you know, Jesus is going to come back and just take His people with Him.
  zh: 有些人说，你知道，耶稣会回来，只是带走他的子民。
- start: 1691.647
  end: 1697.352
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Others say that Jesus is going to come back down and literally live here on earth for a thousand years.
  zh: 其他人说耶稣会回到地上，真的在地上生活一千年。
- start: 1697.352
  end: 1701.976
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Some will say He will literally put His feet on Israel and rule from there.
  zh: 有些人会说他会真的踏足以色列，从那里统治。
- start: 1701.976
  end: 1707.301
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, there are different people who have a futurist view, a preterist view, and different things like that.
  zh: 你知道，有人持未来派观点，有人持过去派观点，还有其他不同的观点。
- start: 1707.301
  end: 1718.17
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Can you talk about, you know, maybe briefly just kind of give people a nutshell version of these different views and then maybe what the Catholic view is and why it’s correct?
  zh: 你能不能，你知道，简单地给人们介绍一下这些不同观点的梗概，然后也许说说公教的观点是什么，为什么是正确的？
- start: 1719.045
  end: 1721.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yeah, let me see how I can summarize that.
  zh: 好的，让我看看怎么总结。
- start: 1721.007
  end: 1724.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That’s a lot; I apologize.
  zh: 这内容很多，我道歉。
- start: 1725.13
  end: 1730.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You have a notion that’s referred to as millenarianism, from the Latin word for a thousand years.
  zh: 有一个称为千禧年主义的概念，来自拉丁语中'一千年'的词。
- start: 1731.035
  end: 1744.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: There’s a passage in Revelation that is so figurative in its language and so mysterious in so many ways that talks about Christ will reign for a thousand years.
  zh: 启示录中有一段经文，用非常比喻性的语言，以许多神秘的方式谈到基督将统治一千年。
- start: 1744.298
  end: 1746.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And then the devil is released afterward.
  zh: 之后魔鬼会被释放。
- start: 1747.22
  end: 1752.163
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He'll be bound for a thousand years with Christ's reign, and then he'll be released afterward, and then the end.
  zh: 他会在基督统治的一千年中被捆绑，之后被释放，然后就是终结。
- start: 1753.144
  end: 1763.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So you do have a couple of early Christian writers who see that as kind of a literal thing—a literal thousand years.
  zh: 确实有一些早期基督教作家把这看作是字面意思——真的是一千年。
- start: 1763.551
  end: 1766.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But early on, the Church said, No, that’s not what that means.
  zh: 但很早的时候，教会就说，不，这不是这个意思。
- start: 1767.193
  end: 1769.254
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We’re not sure what it means, but it doesn’t mean that.
  zh: 我们不确定具体是什么意思，但不是那个意思。
- start: 1769.254
  end: 1782.644
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: St. Augustine's position has probably been the most mainstream position, that the book is talking about the thousand years like all the numbers in the Book of Revelation—144,000, 666—they're all symbolic.
  zh: 圣奥古斯丁的观点可能是最主流的观点，就是这本书谈到的一千年和启示录中所有的数字一样——144,000、666——都是象征性的。
- start: 1782.904
  end: 1787.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: If not, I mean, we’re in trouble because it talks about 144,000 being saved and going to heaven.
  zh: 如果不是这样，我是说，我们就有麻烦了，因为经上说只有144,000人得救上天堂。
- start: 1787.928
  end: 1789.169
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, then what about the rest of us?
  zh: 那么，我们其他人怎么办？
- start: 1789.169
  end: 1789.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: You know?
  zh: 你明白吗？
- start: 1790.07
  end: 1796.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And the Jehovah's Witnesses take that literally and then say the rest of us live in an earthly paradise instead of heaven.
  zh: 耶和华见证人就照字面意思理解，然后说我们其他人住在地上的乐园而不是天堂。
- start: 1796.215
  end: 1806.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So that thousand, you know, he says it’s 10 times 10 times 10; it’s the number kind of of great fullness and a long time, whatever it means literally.
  zh: 所以那个一千，你知道，他说是10乘10乘10，这个数字象征着某种完满和长久，不管它字面上是什么意思。
- start: 1807.183
  end: 1817.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So St. Augustine said, yes, the devil is decisively defeated by Christ, and then the Church age comes where, to a certain extent, the devil is chained.
  zh: 所以圣奥古斯丁说，是的，魔鬼被基督彻底击败，然后教会时代来临，在某种程度上，魔鬼被捆绑。
- start: 1817.892
  end: 1825.799
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: That thousand years refers to the life of the Church—not a literal thousand years, but a very long time.
  zh: 那一千年指的是教会的生命——不是字面意义上的一千年，而是很长的时间。
- start: 1825.919
  end: 1832.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then at the end, when it is time for Christ to return soon and the great tribulation, the devil returns.
  zh: 然后在末期，当基督即将再来和大灾难时，魔鬼会回来。
- start: 1832.225
  end: 1837.966
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I mean, it’s not that he can’t do anything now, but the stuff he was doing before the Church came was much worse.
  zh: 我的意思是，不是说他现在什么都不能做，但他在教会出现之前所做的事要糟糕得多。
- start: 1839.287
  end: 1846.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He’ll be released, and God will give him the chance to do all kinds of terrible things on the earth—the great tribulation—and then Christ will come.
  zh: 他会被释放，神会让他有机会在地上做各种可怕的事——大灾难——然后基督就会来临。
- start: 1846.548
  end: 1856.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So that’s called amillennial, which means no millennium, but I’d rather call it kind of a symbolic millennium that the thousand years refers to that.
  zh: 这被称为无千禧年说，意思是没有千禧年，但我更愿意称之为象征性的千禧年，那一千年指的就是这个。
- start: 1856.488
  end: 1877.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So you have others who believe that the millennium—and people like Calvin, who’s one of these, John Calvin, the Protestant reformer—that the thousand years refers to a time when we will have a time on earth of things getting better and better, and the Holy Spirit ruling more through His people.
  zh: 所以还有人相信千禧年——比如加尔文，就是新教改革家约翰·加尔文——认为这一千年指的是地上的事物会越来越好的时期，圣灵通过他的子民进行更多的统治。
- start: 1878.255
  end: 1882.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then at the end of it, we’ll basically have a perfected world that Jesus comes back to, and we give it to Him.
  zh: 然后在最后，我们基本上会有一个完美的世界等待耶稣回来，我们把它献给他。
- start: 1883.117
  end: 1890.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So the premillennial folks think all this horrible stuff’s going to happen before Jesus comes and reigns for a little thousand years.
  zh: 所以前千禧年论者认为所有这些可怕的事情会在耶稣来临并统治一千年之前发生。
- start: 1890.903
  end: 1900.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The post-millennial guys say, No, actually, through the work of the Holy Spirit, there will be a gradual improvement until things are really good, and then Jesus comes back, and we kind of give it to Him as a gift.
  zh: 后千禧年论者说，不，实际上，通过圣灵的工作，情况会逐渐改善直到变得很好，然后耶稣回来，我们就把这个作为礼物献给他。
- start: 1900.726
  end: 1908.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: And the Catholics would say, no, it’s more like a—you know, present millennial would be the word that’s most often used.
  zh: 而公教会会说，不，这更像是——你知道，现在的千禧年才是最常用的说法。
- start: 1908.849
  end: 1911.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We’re in the millennium now; we’re in the thousand years.
  zh: 我们现在就在千禧年中，我们就在这一千年里。
- start: 1911.37
  end: 1914.691
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The Church is here; Christ is reigning through the Church.
  zh: 教会在这里，基督通过教会统治。
- start: 1915.758
  end: 1918.639
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But there will be a time at the end when it gets really bad.
  zh: 但在末期会有一段非常糟糕的时期。
- start: 1919.139
  end: 1921.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So you’ve got those interpretations.
  zh: 所以你看到了这些解释。
- start: 1922.88
  end: 1940.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The Catholic Church has specifically, now it’s a part of the Church documents, magisterial documents, and you have it also in the Catechism that the millenarian view is mistaken—that there will not be a literal rule of Christ for a thousand years here in which everything is just beautiful and perfect.
  zh: 公教会特别指出，现在在教会文件、训导文件中，你在教理问答中也可以看到，千禧年主义的观点是错误的——不会有基督在地上字面意义上统治一千年，使一切都美好完美。
- start: 1941.126
  end: 1949.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: No, it’s that we don’t know for sure when He’s coming back; it could be at any time.
  zh: 不，我们不确切知道他什么时候回来，可能在任何时候。
- start: 1950.067
  end: 1958.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But when He does come back, then in all His glory, He will come back as judge, and He will judge the world.
  zh: 但当他回来时，他将带着他所有的荣耀，作为审判者回来，他要审判世界。
- start: 1958.53
  end: 1961.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: All the passages about the final judgment will be there.
  zh: 所有关于最后审判的经文都会应验。
- start: 1961.091
  end: 1969.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: There will be a resurrection of the dead, so everyone gets their bodies back because the body will take part in the judgment as well.
  zh: 死人要复活，所以每个人都会得回自己的身体，因为身体也要参与审判。
- start: 1970.015
  end: 1976.88
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: There will be the judgment, the resurrection of the body, the resurrection of the righteous.
  zh: 将有审判，身体的复活，义人的复活。
- start: 1976.88
  end: 1986.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then those who are in friendship with God will be welcomed into heaven; they’ve been out already there, and the saints do come back with them and the angels at the second coming.
  zh: 然后那些与神有友谊的人将被迎入天堂；他们已经在那里了，圣徒们和天使们会在第二次来临时与他们一同回来。
- start: 1986.507
  end: 1989.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then the others set off to hell, and all that is happening.
  zh: 然后其他人被送入地狱，这一切都会发生。
- start: 1989.75
  end: 2000.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Then the devil and all of his allies and all the evil will finally be definitively prevented from doing what they’ve done, and there will be a new heavens and a new earth.
  zh: 然后魔鬼和他所有的同盟以及所有的邪恶将被最终彻底地阻止继续作恶，将会有新天新地。
- start: 2000.158
  end: 2016.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We’re not exactly sure what that means, but that this heavenly condition then for all of us who are in friendship with the Lord will be done, and we don’t have to worry about all the other stuff anymore—decisively done, decisively ended—all that evil.
  zh: 我们不完全确定这意味着什么，但对于所有与主有友谊的人来说，这种天堂的状态将会实现，我们不用再担心其他事情了——一切都已完成，一切都已结束——所有的邪恶。
- start: 2017.74
  end: 2019.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Great, that’s a good summary.
  zh: 很好，这是个很好的总结。
- start: 2019.721
  end: 2020.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢你。
- start: 2020.722
  end: 2037.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I find it interesting personally that throughout the whole Bible, I mean, I can’t think of a single instance where most Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, or anyone else translates the number 1000 as a literal number.
  zh: 我个人觉得很有趣的是，纵观整本圣经，我想不出有任何一个例子是新教徒、公教徒、东正教徒或其他任何人把1000这个数字按字面意思来解释的。
- start: 2037.281
  end: 2043.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, I’m pretty sure almost every scholar knows that it’s a symbolic number, which means a long period of time.
  zh: 我是说，我很确定几乎每个学者都知道这是一个象征性的数字，意味着一个很长的时期。
- start: 2043.483
  end: 2046.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, one day to us is like a thousand days to God.
  zh: 你知道，对我们来说的一天就像对神来说的一千天。
- start: 2046.184
  end: 2048.764
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A thousand days to us is like a day to God.
  zh: 对我们来说的一千天就像对神来说的一天。
- start: 2049.385
  end: 2060.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But yet recently, some people have said, Nope, this thousand years is literal, out of a complete break with all of Christian tradition—not just Catholic, but all Christian tradition.
  zh: 但最近，一些人说，不，这一千年是字面意思，这完全背离了所有基督教传统——不仅是公教，而是所有基督教传统。
- start: 2061.068
  end: 2062.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They say that that’s literal.
  zh: 他们说那是字面意思。
- start: 2062.149
  end: 2064.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I find that very interesting.
  zh: 我觉得这很有意思。
- start: 2064.562
  end: 2078.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Again, you do have a few people in Church history who have said a literal thousand-year reign, that kind of thing, but I mean, it’s so minuscule the number of people that, up until recently, it was, you know, everyone would look at it as eccentric.
  zh: 再说一次，在教会历史上确实有少数人说过字面意义上的一千年统治这样的话，但我是说，持这种观点的人数是如此之少，直到最近，你知道，每个人都会认为这很特异。
- start: 2079.808
  end: 2088.11
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: So the great theologians of the Church, going back to the Church Fathers, would all say it’s symbolic.
  zh: 所以教会的伟大神学家们，追溯到教父们，都会说这是象征性的。
- start: 2088.931
  end: 2094.629
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so basically all of this comes down to the Rapture is not a secret coming.
  zh: 好的，所以基本上这一切都归结为被提不是秘密的来临。
- start: 2094.629
  end: 2097.311
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There’s nobody going to be snatched into the air at any time.
  zh: 不会有人在任何时候被提到空中。
- start: 2097.311
  end: 2101.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The movies Left Behind are not true; the books are not true.
  zh: 《末世迷踪》电影不是真实的；这些书也不是真实的。
- start: 2101.054
  end: 2111.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What we’re really talking about here is the end of time, where Jesus is going to come again to judge the living and the dead, and it’s not going to happen before that time, right?
  zh: 我们真正谈论的是时间的终结，耶稣要再来审判活人死人，在那之前不会发生这些事，对吧？
- start: 2112.041
  end: 2119.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Yes, and the important thing to remember again is that this other notion of the Rapture can lead people to kind of give up on trying to do anything good in the world.
  zh: 是的，还要记住的重要一点是，这种被提的观念会导致人们放弃在世上行善。
- start: 2119.008
  end: 2130.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Well, it’s all going to hell literally anyway, so why should I? So it’s very important to realize that if we don’t accept that Rapture notion, we’re in here for the long haul.
  zh: 反正一切都要下地狱，那我为什么要做呢？所以很重要的是要认识到，如果我们不接受被提的观念，我们就要长期坚持下去。
- start: 2130.634
  end: 2136.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Also, that Jesus said those who endure to the end will be saved—not those who are snatched out will be saved.
  zh: 而且，耶稣说忍耐到底的必然得救——不是说被提走的人必然得救。
- start: 2136.376
  end: 2143.9
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: 'So suffering is a part of the Christian life, and that’s one of the things I discovered becoming Catholic: this beautiful teaching about redemptive suffering.'
  zh: 所以苦难是基督徒生活的一部分，这是我成为公教徒后发现的事情之一：关于救赎性苦难的这个美好教导。
- start: 2143.9
  end: 2153.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Suffering can have a redemptive purpose, whereas the whole Rapture notion is, I’m going to escape that suffering because I’m the good guy, so I get pulled out, or at least I’ve been saved, so I get pulled out.
  zh: 苦难可以有救赎的目的，而整个被提观念是，我要逃避那种苦难因为我是好人，所以我会被提走，或者至少我已经得救了，所以我会被提走。
- start: 2154.257
  end: 2156.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But that’s not the Christian life.
  zh: 但这不是基督徒的生活。
- start: 2156.558
  end: 2171.826
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Talk to a Chinese Christian who’s been imprisoned in labor camps and stuff all their life under the Communist Party there, and if you were to come and say, Oh, don’t you know when Jesus comes, He’s going to come secretly and keep us from suffering?
  zh: 去和那些在共产党统治下一生被关在劳改营的中国基督徒谈谈，如果你对他们说，哦，你不知道当耶稣来的时候，他会秘密地来临并使我们免受苦难吗？
- start: 2171.847
  end: 2176.577
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: He’s going to snatch us out, they would say, Why didn’t He snatch me?
  zh: 他会把我们提走，他们会说，为什么他没有把我提走？
- start: 2177.798
  end: 2179.259
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: They know better than that.
  zh: 他们比这个更明白。
- start: 2179.259
  end: 2184.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: All through history, Christians suffer, and if they take it the right way, it’s redemptive.
  zh: 纵观历史，基督徒都经历苦难，如果他们以正确的方式承担，这就是救赎性的。
- start: 2184.341
  end: 2185.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: But they are persecuted.
  zh: 但他们确实受到迫害。
- start: 2185.421
  end: 2188.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: We’re not going to be snatched out when things get really bad.
  zh: 当情况变得很糟糕时，我们不会被提走。
- start: 2189.043
  end: 2190.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s exactly right.
  zh: 这完全正确。
- start: 2190.003
  end: 2192.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Matthew chapter 10—you know, Pick up your cross and follow me.
  zh: 马太福音第10章——你知道，背起你的十字架来跟从我。
- start: 2192.965
  end: 2198.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He who does not pick up his cross and follow me has no fellowship with me; he cannot be my disciple.
  zh: 不背起他的十字架跟从我的，与我没有相交；他不能作我的门徒。
- start: 2199.788
  end: 2204.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'I think that’s a very crucial point: we are going to suffer.'
  zh: 我认为这是一个很关键的点：我们会受苦。
- start: 2204.063
  end: 2204.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And you know what?
  zh: 你知道吗？
- start: 2204.924
  end: 2212.47
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You made the perfect connection that we’re talking about Matthew 24, where one will be saved and one will be taken.
  zh: 你完美地联系到我们在谈论马太福音24章，其中说到一个得救，一个被取去。
- start: 2212.47
  end: 2222.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But Jesus also makes it clear that he who perseveres to the end will be saved, meaning you’re going to have to persevere through the suffering to be saved.
  zh: 但耶稣也明确表示，忍耐到底的必然得救，这意味着你必须要忍受苦难直到最后才能得救。
- start: 2223.179
  end: 2223.679
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Perfect!
  zh: 太好了！
- start: 2223.679
  end: 2225.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, I think that’s a great summary of the Rapture.
  zh: 我是说，我认为这是对被提的很好总结。
- start: 2225.741
  end: 2237.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, you wrote an entire book, and I want to point my audience—I’m going to link your information, your website, and everything you do, Mr. Thigpen, down below in the description section.
  zh: 我是说，你写了一整本书，我要告诉我的观众——我会在描述部分下面链接你的信息、你的网站和你所做的一切，西格彭先生。
- start: 2237.707
  end: 2240.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’re going to let people know where they can follow you.
  zh: 我们会让人们知道在哪里可以关注你。
- start: 2240.528
  end: 2244.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’re going to link your book down there, and I would highly recommend that people get this book.
  zh: 我们会在下面链接你的书，我强烈推荐大家去买这本书。
- start: 2244.87
  end: 2247.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, look at how thick this book is!
  zh: 我是说，看看这本书有多厚！
- start: 2247.592
  end: 2249.192
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We just scratched the surface.
  zh: 我们只是触及了表面。
- start: 2249.192
  end: 2260.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you would like to know a lot more information on the history of it, on the biblical aspect of it, just the different religions and how it came to be—I mean, there’s a whole part on William Miller in here.
  zh: 如果你想了解更多关于它的历史、圣经方面的信息，以及不同宗教和它是如何形成的——我是说，这里有整整一部分是关于威廉·米勒的。
- start: 2260.358
  end: 2261.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s a very interesting story.
  zh: 这是一个很有趣的故事。
- start: 2261.758
  end: 2266.299
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, he’s self-taught, and yet so many people followed him, and it’s just so interesting.
  zh: 我是说，他是自学成才的，但却有这么多人追随他，这真的很有趣。
- start: 2266.299
  end: 2273.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I’m going to link all this down below for our audience, and I would recommend that you all check that out.
  zh: 所以我会在下面为我们的观众链接所有这些内容，我建议你们都去看看。
- start: 2273.62
  end: 2279.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I want to thank you, Dr. Thigpen, for joining us today on Catholic Truth and explaining this to us and our audience.
  zh: 我要感谢西格彭博士今天做客公教会真理，为我们和观众解释这些内容。
- start: 2280.541
  end: 2282.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Brian, it’s been a great pleasure.
  zh: 布莱恩，这是我的荣幸。
- start: 2282.322
  end: 2290.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: I pray that God will bless all your viewers and lead them more and more to the truth about Him and conform them to the image of His Son.
  zh: 我祈祷上帝祝福你所有的观众，引导他们更多地认识关于他的真理，使他们效法他儿子的形象。
- start: 2291.392
  end: 2293.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Amen, and the pleasure is all ours!
  zh: 阿们，这是我们的荣幸！
- start: 2294.074
  end: 2307.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We just want to thank everybody for tuning into our podcast today, and thank you for tuning in to Catholic Truth—your place so that anyone, at any moment, anywhere can come to know exactly what the Catholic Church teaches and why.
  zh: 我们要感谢每一位收听今天播客的人，感谢你们收听公教会真理——这里是让任何人在任何时候、任何地方都能准确了解公教会教导什么以及为什么的地方。
- start: 2307.842
  end: 2309.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Please check out our show notes below, everybody.
  zh: 请大家查看下面的节目说明。
- start: 2309.704
  end: 2313.326
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Check out our Facebook, follow us on Instagram, and our podcast.
  zh: 查看我们的脸书，在Instagram上关注我们，以及我们的播客。
- start: 2313.326
  end: 2319.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you would consider supporting our ministry, you are the reason we exist—to save souls and change lives.
  zh: 如果你愿意支持我们的事工，你就是我们存在的理由——为了拯救灵魂，改变生命。
- start: 2319.488
  end: 2321.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So check that all out below.
  zh: 所以请查看下面的所有内容。
- start: 2321.41
  end: 2322.23
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you all!
  zh: 感谢大家！
- start: 2322.23
  end: 2324.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Please pray for us; we are always praying for you.
  zh: 请为我们祈祷；我们一直在为你们祈祷。
- start: 2324.873
  end: 2325.514
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God bless you!
  zh: 愿上帝保佑你们！
