感谢大家收听公教会真理播客，在这里我们只传授和 宣讲从耶稣和使徒们传承了两千年的公教会真理。 Thank you everybody for joining us in this Catholic Truth podcast, where we teach and preach nothing but the Catholic truth, which has come down to us for 2,000 years from Jesus and the Apostles.
我们很高兴传授和宣讲来自耶稣的真理，我们希望帮助你认识你的信仰 ，热爱你的信仰，捍卫你的信仰，并且充满目标和热情地活出信仰。 We are happy to teach and preach the truth from Jesus, and we want to help you to know your faith, love your faith, defend your faith, and to live it with purpose and passion.
感谢你今天收听本期节目。 We want to thank you for joining us today on this episode.
我是主持人布莱恩·梅西耶，今天我们邀请到了一位特别的嘉宾。 My name is Brian Mercier, I am your host, and we have a very special guest today.
他就是保罗·西格彭，一位国际知名的演说家、畅 销书作家、获奖记者，已经写作了超过35本书。 His name is Paul Thigpen, and he is an internationally known speaker, a bestselling author, and an award-winning journalist who has written over 35 books.
我相信他的作品已被翻译成约15种不同的语言 ，可见他是一位非常有学问且广受欢迎的作家。 I believe they’ve been translated into something like 15 different languages, so he’s really studied and he’s really popular.
他最著名的著作是《被提陷阱》，你可以在他的网站和其他平台上找到这本书。 His most famous book is The Rapture Trap, which you can find on his website and on other platforms as well.
在这期节目中，我们将围绕被提这个话题进行深入讨论。 We’ll be talking a lot about that in this video, which we’re going to be discussing regarding the Rapture.
在开始之前，我想说西格彭先生在2008年被美国公 教会主教会议任命为全国顾问委员会的平信徒顾问。 But before we get to that, I just want to say that Mr. Thigpen, in 2008, was appointed by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to their National Advisory Board as a lay advisor.
他以教授、历史学家、护教学者和教理讲授者的身份服务于教会。 He serves the Church as a professor, a historian, an apologist, and a catechist.
可以说他是多才多艺，而且他作为护教学者已经很多年了。 You might say that he does it all, and he’s been an apologist for a very long time.
说到被提这个话题，我想不出还有比保罗·西格彭更专业的专家了。 There’s no person that I can think of on the topic of the Rapture than Paul Thigpen, who is an expert on this.
正如我们将要看到的，被提说是不符合圣经的，这 既不是耶稣基督的教导，也不是基督教的教义。 The Rapture is, as we’re going to see, unbiblical; it is not a teaching of Jesus Christ, and it’s not a teaching of Christianity.
现在，让我们欢迎保罗·西格彭做客本期节目。 Here to talk about this today, we are going to welcome to the show Paul Thigpen.
感谢您今天做客。 Thank you for joining us today.
很高兴来到这里，布莱恩。 Great to be here, Brian.
感谢邀请。 Thanks for the invitation.
太好了！ Absolutely!
我们的一些听众可能会问，被提到底是什么？ Some of our listeners might be asking, Well, what’s a Rapture?
为了让那些不了解或认为自己了解的听众明白，您能否简 单解释一下什么是被提，以及围绕这个话题的一些争议？ You know, for any of our listeners who might not know or think they know, could you just give us a brief explanation of what the Rapture is and maybe a little bit of the controversy around it?
当然可以！ Sure!
是的，这个词来源于拉丁语，意思是被抓走，就像被提上去一样。 Yeah, it comes from a Latin word that means to be snatched, like snatched up.
这就是为什么猛禽，比如迅猛龙这类恐龙被这样称呼，因为它们是掠食者。 That’s why raptors, like Velociraptors, the dinosaurs, were called that; they were snatchers.
所以在公教会传统中，这更多是指…… And so, in Catholic tradition, it has more to do with being...
陷入灵魂超拔，比如我们说锡耶纳的圣加大利纳 祈祷时进入灵魂超拔的状态，就是这样的意思。 Caught up in ecstasy, so you might talk about St. Catherine of Siena praying and being in a rapture, that kind of thing.
虽然这个词本身并没有出现在圣经中，但在某些基督教传统中，这是一个概念。 There are some Christian traditions, though, in which it is a notion, even though the word itself in that sense doesn’t appear in Scripture.
这个概念认为在耶稣第一次降临（当然是作为救主在伯利恒降生）和祂最后的 荣耀再临（带着荣耀的云彩，与天使和圣徒一同作为审判者降临）之间，在末 世时期会有一次隐秘的降临，那时祂是不可见的，世人既看不见也听不见祂。 The notion is that in between Jesus' first coming, which was, of course, at Bethlehem as our Savior, and His final second coming in glory, clouds of glory, and with His angels and saints—that second coming as judge—there is, in between, toward the end of time, a secret coming in which He will be invisible; He will be unseen and unheard by the world.
但真正的信徒会被提走，可以说是被从世界中拉到天上，与祂一同回到天堂。 But that true believers will be snatched, you might say, or pulled out of the world into heaven, to go back with Him to heaven.
这一定会发生。 And that will happen.
他们对具体发生的时间有分歧。 They disagree over exactly when it will happen.
有人说是在世界末日大灾难之前，有人说是在中间，有人说是在之后。 Some say before the great tribulation at the end of the world, some say in the middle, some say afterwards.
所以基本上，这种末世场景是神会把他忠实的追随 者从地上带走，然后留下的人将经历可怕的灾难。 So basically, you have this kind of end-times scenario where God’s going to take His faithful followers from the earth, and then all hell at some point will break loose upon the people who are left.
这样说对吗？ Is that fair to say?
是的，不过还是有一些分歧。 Yes, although again, there’s some disagreement.
有些人说信徒会在末世灾难开始前被提走，有些人说是在中间，还有人说是在接近结束时。 Some folks would say they’re all snatched out before any of the tribulation at the end; others would say in the midway; others would say more toward the end.
但核心想法是他会秘密降临——耶稣会秘密地来，把 教会从即将临到世界其他人身上的灾难中解救出来。 But the idea is that He comes secretly—Jesus comes secretly and kind of rescues the Church out of what’s happening to the rest of the world.
是的，谢谢。 Yeah, thank you.
我想很多收看我们频道的人会说公教会是邪恶的，因为他们不相信被提。 And I think it’s fair to say that many people on our channel will say Catholics are evil because they don’t believe in the Rapture.
他们说这明明是圣经中的教导，但公教会不遵循圣经。 You know, it’s clearly biblical, but Catholics, you know, don’t follow the Bible.
但不接受被提说的不只是公教会，对吧？ But it’s not just Catholics that don’t accept the Rapture, is it?
据我所知，东正教不接受这个说法，如果我没记错的话，大多数新教宗派也拒绝被提说。 I mean, as far as I know, Orthodox don’t accept it, and if I’m not mistaken, most Protestant religions would reject the Rapture as well.
这说得对吗？ Is that correct?
是的，这是我发现的情况之一。 Yeah, that’s one of the things I’ve found.
我成长的传统中确实谈论被提。 I grew up in a tradition where they actually talked about it.
我是皈依公教会的。 I’m a convert to the Catholic faith.
当我开始攻读教会历史和历史神学博士学位时，从历史角度研究这个概念是不可避免的。 When I started working on my doctorate in Church history and historical theology, it was inevitable that I’d look at this notion in light of history.
我发现的一点是，这实际上不是公教和新教之间的争论。 One of the things I discovered was that it really is not a Catholic-Protestant argument.
不仅公教会的教导中没有这个，如你所说东正教也不接受，而且新教运动的创始人——路 德、加尔文、慈运理，以及后来创立卫理公会或运动的卫斯理，他们都不相信这个说法。 Not only is it not part of the teaching of the Catholic Church, as you said, the Eastern Orthodox Churches don’t accept it, but also even the founders of the Protestant movement—Luther, Calvin, Zwingli—and then later people like Wesley, who founded the Methodist denomination or movement, anyway, none of them believed that.
他们在解释那些经常被视为圣经依据的经文时，从未提到过这样的事。 They would interpret the passages that are often seen as biblical proof and never mention such a thing.
这是教会历史上一个非常新近的发展。 It’s a very recent development in Church history.
第一次——请说。 The first time—go ahead.
哦，请您继续。 Oh, go ahead, please.
我正想问您这个问题。 I was just going to ask you about that.
好的，如果这不是历史传统，而且大多数基督徒都不接受，甚至新教改 革很久之后的新教改革家也不接受，那么，它是什么时候开始的呢？ Okay, if it’s not historical and most Christians didn’t accept it, and even Protestant reformers long after the Protestant Reformation didn’t accept it, then, you know, kind of when did it begin?
是谁发明的？它是如何出现的？ Who invented it, and how did it come to light?
这是一段相当复杂的历史。 It’s a very complicated kind of history.
你现在在某些基要派新教圈子里常见的这些观念。 You have the ideas you normally meet today, say, in certain fundamentalist Protestant circles.
完整的被提信仰直到19世纪才真正出现。 Full-blown belief did not really come out until the 1800s.
在此之前，可能偶尔有人提到，比如在18世纪末。 Before that, you might have an occasional person, like in the late 1700s.
有趣的是，有一位智利的耶稣会士教导过一种被提说，但 更有趣的是，他认为被提的人是那些每天领圣体的人。 Interestingly enough, you had a Jesuit from Chile who taught a kind of rapture, but it was interestingly enough based on the idea that the people who were raptured were the ones who were daily communicants with the Eucharist.
显然，这种说法不会被采纳。 So obviously, that’s not going to be picked up.
偶尔会有人，比如清教徒神学家科顿·马瑟，提到某种形 式的把基督徒带离世界的说法，但这很特殊，很不寻常。 You’d have an occasional person, Cotton Mather, one of the Puritan divines, that there was some kind of taking the Christians out of the world, but very kind of eccentric, very unusual.
19世纪发生的事是，这种说法在英国某些新教小圈子里变得流行起 来，他们部分受到一位年轻女子的影响，她声称自己看到了异象。 What happened in the 1800s is that it became a popular belief among a small circle of a certain kind of Protestants in England, and they themselves were partly influenced by a young woman who had what she thought was a vision of things.
她描述的就是这种被提的景象。 The way she described it was this kind of rapture.
这在那些圈子里变得很受欢迎，然后影响了英国的一些基督教运动。 It became very popular in those circles, and then what happened is it influenced certain movements in England—Christian movements in England.
大约在那个时候，美国的复兴运动成为一种很受欢迎的复兴方式。 About that time, the American revival movement was one of the ways of revival that was becoming very popular.
结果就是成千上万的人参加了美国的一种特定复兴传统的复兴会。 So you end up having hundreds of thousands of people going to revivals in America from a particular kind of revivalist tradition.
圣经教师们跨越大西洋，许多相信被提说的人开始在这 些大型复兴会上传讲这个观念，于是开始传播开来。 The Bible teachers kind of crossed the Atlantic, and a lot of the people who believed this notion of the rapture started preaching it at these large revival meetings, and that began to spread.
然后像慕迪圣经学院这样的地方（以复兴运动的伟大布道家德怀特·慕 迪命名）接受了这种说法，并开始培训全国各地的牧师相信这个观点。 Then places like Moody Bible Institute, named after Dwight Moody, who was one of the great evangelists of the revival movements, picked it up and began training pastors from all over the country to believe it.
但真正推动它的是一本特别的圣经注释书，是针对英 王钦定本的，它教导了时代论体系中的一部分内容。 What really pushed it, though, was that there was a particular commentary of the Bible, the King James Bible, that taught maybe just a part of a whole system called dispensationalism.
详细解释需要很长时间，但总之，他在注释中把它当作事实来写。 It would take a long time to go into it, but anyway, in his notes, he just put it as if it were a fact.
很多人读圣经时——有时经文和注释的篇幅差不多——他们几乎 把注释当作圣经的一部分来读，想着：哦，一定就是这样的。 A lot of folks would read the Bible—sometimes it’s this much text and this much commentary—and they would read it almost as if it’s part of the Bible and think, Oh, well, this must be how it is.
这本特别的圣经，以编写者的名字命名为司可福圣经——顺便说一下， 他不是神学家，而是一位律师——这是理解这个问题的一个重要线索。 And that particular Bible, called the Scofield Bible, after the man who did it—who, by the way, was not a theologian; he was actually a lawyer—is a good keynote to understand.
是的，司可福圣经后来成为美国最畅销的圣经，售出了几十万甚至上百万册。 Yeah, the Scofield Bible then became the bestselling Bible in America, with tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of copies sold.
人们把这些注释当作圣经的一部分来读。 People were reading these notes as if it were just part of Scripture.
所以，在司可福圣经、复兴会，以及像慕迪圣经学院这样培 训牧师的地方的影响下，这种观念在美国变得极其流行。 So, between the Scofield Bible, the revival meetings, and then certain places like Moody Bible College, where they were training pastors who then went on to teach their people, it became extremely popular in America.
这种观念也传到了世界其他地方，但美国在历史和地理上都是一个特例。 It went to some other places in the world too, but America was kind of the anomaly, both in history and geographically.
我们在这里认识很多相信这种说法的人——我个人 就认识很多——所以这似乎成了常态的一部分。 We know so many people here—I do personally—who believe it, and so it kind of seems like part of the norm.
但如果你看教会两千年的历史和整个教会的情况， 全世界有超过十亿的基督徒是不相信这种说法的。 But if you look at the whole span of 2,000 years of Church history and the entire Church, there are more than a billion Christians worldwide who do not believe it.
所以从这个角度来看待这个问题很重要。 So it’s good to have it in context that way.
是的，确实如此。 Yeah, absolutely.
就像你说的，在18世纪，这种说法几乎闻所未闻。 And like you said, in the 1700s, it was virtually unheard of.
到了19世纪，它才开始获得关注。 In the 1800s, it started to get traction.
还有《末世迷踪》系列也有关系，对吧？ And there was something about the Left Behind series too, right?
您认为《末世迷踪》这部小说系列是否真的帮助推广了这种非圣经的被提理论？ Would you say the Left Behind series, that fictional book series, really helped popularize this unbiblical theory of the Rapture?
对新一代人确实起到了这样的作用。 It did for a new generation.
这种观念像很多事物一样是周期性的。 It’s the kind of idea that goes through cycles, like a lot of things.
你知道，就像是一种宗教潮流。 You know, like this, you know, almost religious fad.
但这种观念有一定的持久力。 But this is one with some staying power.
特别是那些电视传道人，他们在电视上推广这些东西——这已经成了一个产业。 What will happen, especially with the kind of folks you have on TV—the TV preachers who will push it for some of the stuff—it’s a whole industry.
我可以详细说说这个。 I could go into that.
他们推广这个让人相信，然后销售他们的书籍和视频，这就是他们的产业。 They push this and get people to believe it, and then they sell their books and their videos, and that’s kind of their industry.
但在70年代就有一次大规模的推广。 But what happened was there probably had been back in the 70s a big push.
我是说，哈尔·林赛写了一本叫《晚期的大地球》的书，成为畅销书，售出了数百万册。 I mean, Hal Lindsey wrote a book called The Late Great Planet Earth, and that became a bestseller with so many million copies sold.
那时我正好高中毕业并刚刚成为基督徒，所以那是它流行的一种方式。 That was the time when I was graduating from high school and just becoming a Christian, so that became one way in which it got popularized.
但到了30年后，在上个世纪末，大约2000年前后，《末 世迷踪》系列的作者们又让这个观念在新一代人中流行起来。 But here we are, 30 years later, around the turn of this last century, around the year 2000, and a new generation gets popularized by a couple of authors who wrote the Left Behind series.
这一直是他们教导的一部分，而《末世迷踪》系列 小说就是建立在耶稣会秘密再来这个前提之上。 They’ve been part of their teaching all along, and just the Left Behind books were novels that built on the premise that Jesus did come back secretly.
最后他们还拍成了电影，非常受欢迎。 And they ended up making a feature film out of it, which was really popular.
他们做了各种各样的东西——儿童读物等等——我可以一直说下去，这确实成了一个产业。 They did all kinds of stuff—children's books—and I could go on and on, but it became quite an industry.
正是在那时，这种观念开始前所未有地渗透到公教圈子里。 It was at that time when more than ever it began to kind of, what do I want to say, leak into Catholic circles.
公教徒在看这些电视节目、电影和书籍，但当然，这再次强调，这不是公教的教导。 Catholics were watching the TV stuff, watching the films, reading the books, and of course, again, it’s not Catholic teaching.
所以在那时候，比如伊利诺伊州的主教们就聚在一起发表声明，说这不是公教的教导。 So what happened was right around that time, you had, for instance, the bishops of Illinois get together and make a statement saying that this is not Catholic teaching.
我们发现这些书被作为公教学校的指定读物，也 在公教学校图书馆里，但它们不应该在那里。 We understand that these books have been given as assigned reading in Catholic schools and they’re in Catholic school libraries; they’re not to be there.
有一个电视传道人——我就不指名道姓了——试图吸引公教徒成为 他的观众，他说，哦，公教会教导这些东西，教宗也接受这个。 One particular TV preacher—I won’t name him—was trying to woo Catholics to his audience, and he said, Oh, the Catholic Church teaches us that kind of thing, and the Pope embraces this.
然后升天出版社的创始人马特·平托来找我说，你知道，还没有公教的书来回应这些。 Then I had Matt Pinto, founder of Ascension Press, approach me and say, You know, there’s no Catholic book responding to all this.
你为什么不写一本呢？ Why don’t you do it?
这正好是我在教会历史研究中的专长之一，所以我说，好啊。 That had been one of my specializations in my Church history studies, so I said, Go for it.
我写了《被提陷阱》，我记得是2001年出版的 ，现在还在印刷，这对公教平装书来说很不寻常。 I wrote The Rapture Trap, which came out in, I think, 2001, and it’s still in print, which is unusual for a Catholic paperback.
所以这算是第一本这样的书。 So it was like the first book.
之后，我的朋友卡尔·奥尔森和其他一些人也开始写这个主题。 Then right after, Carl Olson, one of my friends, and some other folks began to also write about it.
所以不只是我的书，其他人也开始说，嘿，让我们从历史和神学的角度来看这个问题。 So it wasn’t just my book, but others that began to kind of say, Hey, let’s look at this in a historical and theological context.
这真的不符合圣经，从历史角度来看也很特异。 It really is not biblical; it’s really kind of eccentric historically.
所以那个电视传道人甚至在他的一集节目中拿着我的书 ，声称因为我不相信被提，所以我不相信基督再来。 So I even had that same TV preacher get on in one of his episodes with my book and claim that I didn’t believe in the Second Coming because I didn’t believe in the Rapture.
事情变得很混乱。 It got really messy.
我试图私下接触他，说，让我们作为弟兄坐下来谈一谈，这不是事实。 I approached him privately, tried to, and said, Let’s get together and talk this out as brothers; that’s not true.
他采取了回避态度，不过这都不重要了。 He stonewalled, but that’s neither here nor there.
总之，有些人对此投入太深，甚至无法考虑被提说可能不是真实的这种可能性。 Anyway, there were some people so deeply invested in it that they could not even consider the possibility that the Rapture is not true.
现在我们马上要谈到一些新教徒试图引用的圣经经文。 Now we’re going to get to the Bible verses that some Protestants try to use in a minute.
你知道，他们用三四节经文来试图证明被提的存在。 You know, they utilize three or four verses to try to prove that there was a Rapture.
但在此之前，为什么公教徒和大多数新教徒不接受它？ But before we do, why don’t Catholics and most Protestants accept it?
我是说，也许这是个简单的修辞性问题，但为什么他们不接受被提说？ I mean, maybe this is a rhetorical, easy question, but why don’t they accept the Rapture?
被提说有什么问题？ What are some of the problems with the Rapture?
首先，传统对我们来说很重要。 Well, first of all, tradition is important to us.
我们不认为这样的观念会通过某个年轻女孩的私人启示和异象产生，因为这种教义与教会一 直以来的教导和圣经一直以来被理解的方式相违背——不仅是公教，还包括东正教和新教。 We don’t think that some notion like this is going to be done by some kind of private revelation to a young girl in a vision that puts out this doctrine that is contrary to what the Church has always taught and the way the Scripture has always been believed—not just by Catholics, but by Orthodox and Protestants.
当你去看那些被用来支持这种说法的圣经经文时，会发现它们并不支持这种说法。 When you go to look at the verses that are used to support it in Scripture, they don’t support it.
这些经文一直以来都有其他的解释方式，不仅是公教，我提到的其他教会也是如此。 They’ve always been interpreted other ways, not just by Catholics but by the others I mentioned.
事实上，它最终与我们所知的基督教真理相抵触。 In fact, it ends up pressing against certain things that we know to be Christian truth.
当它流行时，常常导致不良的属灵和社会后果——用结果来形容最恰当。 When it has been popular, it’s often led to spiritual and social consequences that are bad—fruit is the best way to put it.
所以，基于所有这些原因。 So, kind of for all those reasons.
但主要原因是这不是从使徒们那里接受并传下来的信仰。 But the main reason is that this is not the faith that was received from the Apostles and has been handed down.
这是一个非常特异的、历史晚期的信仰发展，部分来自于 一个年轻女子的异象和狂喜，然后其他人也跟着接受了。 It’s a very eccentric, late-in-history faith development that comes in part from, you know, some young woman’s vision and ecstasy, and then others too kind of picked up on that.
所以基本上，这是人的遗传——引用马可福音7:7— 或者在这种情况下是女人的遗传，但它不是来自耶稣。 So basically, it’s a tradition of man—to quote Mark 7:7—or in this case, a tradition of woman, but it doesn’t come from Jesus.
是的，你也可以说，好吧，那个智利耶稣会士也有类似的想法，但实际上并不相同。 Yeah, and I mean, you could also say, all right, you had that idea kind of in the Jesuit from Chile, but again, it wasn’t really similar.
我觉得有趣的联系是，那位耶稣会士的著作——我想他从未称之为 被提——而是关于基督徒中忠实领圣体者、每日领圣体者的撤离， 这本书被一个英国人翻译，而这个人后来成了被提教义的推广者。 The interesting connection I feel to make is that that Jesuit’s work on what he thought was—I don’t think he ever called it Rapture—but this withdrawal of Christians to faithful communicants, daily communicants, that book was translated by a man in England who then became a promoter of the Rapture doctrine.
所以你不得不怀疑他是否受到了这个的影响。 So you have to wonder if he was influenced by this thing.
顺便说一下，当然，教会谴责了那位耶稣会士写的书。 And by the way, the Church condemned the book that the Jesuit had written, of course.
但这类事情往往会有…… But things like this tend to have...
所以不仅仅是那个看见异象的女孩，还有这个人从一个叛逆的耶稣会士那里得到这 个想法，然后试图在圣经中找到一些地方来说，哦，是的，这就是经文所说的。 So it’s not just the girl in the vision, but this guy picking up this thing from a kind of renegade Jesuit and then trying to look in Scripture to find some place where they could say, Oh yeah, that’s what that’s talking about.
这就是这类想法通常是如何开始的。 That’s how ideas like that often get going.
是的，你提到了圣经，我刚才也提到了。 Yeah, and you mentioned Scripture, and I just mentioned it a minute ago.
您能否谈谈一些宗派和非宗派教会用来试图证明被 提的主要经文，以及为什么这些论证站不住脚？ Could you mention or talk about perhaps some of the top verses that some denominations and non-denominational churches will use to try to prove the Rapture, and maybe talk about why they don’t hold up?
你知道，为什么历史上大多数基督徒都不是那样解释这些经文的，这是一个很新的创造。 You know, why Christians throughout most of history did not translate them that way, and it’s a very new invention.
是的，在帖撒罗尼迦前后书中有几处地方，圣保罗谈到了主的再来。 Yeah, there are a couple of places in 1 and 2 Thessalonians where St. Paul is talking about the Lord’s second coming.
在帖撒罗尼迦前书4:17和帖撒罗尼迦后书2:1和17 中，他谈到主的再来，以及我们将被提到空中与他相遇。 So, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 17, he talks about the Lord’s returning and that we’ll be caught up in the air to meet Him.
所以他们会说，好的，看，虽然没有说被提这个词，但这就是被提。 So they’ll say, Okay, see, it doesn’t say Rapture, but that’s what it is.
我们将被提出这个世界，被带走。 We’re being caught up out of the world and taken out.
当然，问题在于当他描述这些时，他使用的所有词语，包括天使 、号筒和呼喊等，都是他一直用来描述最后再来的相同词语。 Of course, the problem is that when he describes those, all the words he’s using, with the angel, trumpet, and shouts and stuff, are all the same things that he uses throughout to mean the final coming.
所以这不是在说一个独立的事件，而是在说耶稣 最后在荣耀中公开再来的事件——不是秘密的。 So this is not talking about something separate; this is talking about some kind of event when Jesus finally comes in glory at the end—not secretly.
这绝不是秘密的，就像耶稣所说的闪电从东边发出直照到西边，还有天使的号筒声等等。 It’s anything but secret, like the lightning coming from east to west, as Jesus said, and the sound of the trumpet to the angels and all that.
他要与众天使和圣徒一同来临，这一点都不秘密。 He’s coming with His angels and saints; there’s nothing secret about that.
事实上，你知道，这就给你留下了一个问题。 In fact, you know, so I mean that leaves you with a problem.
好吧，那么当他显现时我们被提到空中与他相遇是什么意思呢？ All right, so what does it mean that we’re kind of caught up to meet Him when He appears?
有趣的是，你可以在四世纪的圣金口若望的著作中找到这个解释。 Here’s the interesting thing, and you can find this in St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century.
他已经在解释这段经文了。 He’s already talking about this in this passage.
在那个时期和耶稣时代，有一种称为perugia的事物，在希腊语中意为显现或出现。 During that time and during the time of Jesus, there was something that was called the perugia, meaning in Greek an appearance or appearing.
这是地中海世界的一种流行习俗，当一位王室成员或刚获得重大 胜利的将军到来时，人们会用游行来欢迎他们进入这座大城。 It was a popular custom in the Mediterranean world where if you had either someone who was royalty or a general who had just had a great conquest, they would be welcomed into a big walled city with a parade to honor them.
当他们进入城市时，这被称为perugia，即显现。 As they came into the city, it was called the perugia, an appearance.
城里的人会出城迎接他们，然后护送他们进城。 The people of the city would go out to meet them and then escort them back in.
Apontixis是指这种迎接——出去相遇，而perugia是指显现。 Apontixis is what was called the meeting—going out to meet them—and perugia was the name of the appearance.
这些就是圣保罗在那里使用的词。 Those are the words being used by St. Paul there.
如果你想想看，棕枝主日的福音故事正是如此：耶稣被视为进城的君王 ，人们出去迎接他，铺上衣服，拿着棕树枝等物，然后护送他进城。 If you think about it, the Gospel story of Palm Sunday is precisely that: Jesus is seen as a king who’s coming into the city, so the people go out to meet Him, and they put their garments down and have the palm branches and all the other things, and then they escort Him back in.
这给了人们一个机会参与庆典，在游行中欢庆。 It gave the people a chance to kind of, you know, take part in the party, have fun in the parade.
事实上，圣保罗在其他地方也使用了这个意象——耶稣如何 掳掠了仇敌，公开羞辱了魔鬼的权势，然后将恩赐赐给人。 In fact, St. Paul then uses this in other places—the imagery of how Jesus took captivity captive and made a spectacle of all the demonic powers and then gave gifts to men.
这来自同样的传统，因为征服的将军在这种游行中会带着他们刚征服的敌军首 领，然后把从敌人那里缴获的战利品分给百姓，以此讨好他们，获得支持。 That’s from the same thing because what the conquering generals would do in this parade was they would bring the leaders of the enemy they had just conquered in, and then they would take the loot from the enemy and give it to the people as a way of, you know, brown-nosing and getting their support and dividing up and giving them gifts.
这正是他所说的。 That’s exactly what he’s talking about.
所以这是一个很普遍的事情，早在四世纪，圣金口若望就说，是的，这就是经文所说的。 So it’s a very common thing there, and as early as the 4th century, St. John Chrysostom is saying, Yeah, that’s what this is talking about.
耶稣的显现——他就像圣保罗所暗指的伟大君王，在末 日降临地上，那些爱他并愿意接受他的人出去迎接他。 Jesus' perugia—He’s like this great king that St. Paul has alluded to, coming into earth at the end, and those who love Him and want to receive Him come out to greet Him.
就像你说的，这一点都不秘密，对吧？ As you said, there’s nothing secret about it, right?
对，请继续。 Right, go ahead.
是的，我想评论一下那个秘密部分，因为这似乎是说耶稣来过 一次，然后他要秘密地再来一次，然后在末世还要再来一次。 Yeah, I was going to comment on that secret part because it almost seems like Jesus came, but then He’s going to come again secretly, and then He’s going to come again at the end of time.
所以这不是传统基督教理解的第二次来临，这几乎像是第三次来临。 So it’s not the second coming that traditional Christianity understands; it almost seems like it’s a third coming.
没错，这一直以来都是批评的焦点。 Exactly, and that’s been, you know, the critique all along.
你知道，即使是研究这个问题并拒绝被提说法的 新教学者也说，看，你不能这样解释这些... You know, from folks who are even Protestant scholars who look at this and reject the notion of a Rapture say, Look, there’s no way you can talk about these as...
因为他们会反驳说，好吧，这不是两次额外的来临，而是第二次来临的两个阶段。 Because the argument would be back, Okay, well, it’s not really two more comings; it’s two phases of the second coming.
但是，你知道，新教学者也说，不，你真的无法从经文中得出这种解释。 But even, you know, Protestant scholars just say, No, you really can’t get that from the text.
这确实是第三次来临。 It is a third coming.
他来了又走，回到另一个阶段，你知道，当他再来时的第一个阶段。 He comes and goes back to phase, you know, phase one of another when He has another coming.
但是，你知道，这就像是，不，这是个新想法。 But yeah, you know, it’s just like, No, that’s a new idea.
这是一组经文。 So that’s one set of passages.
我想另一个你最常听到的，也是《末世迷踪》系列书籍和电影标题的来源，是 马太福音24:37及其后的经文，耶稣正在讲述福音书中所谓的小启示录。 Another one that you’ll hear the most frequently, I think, and this is where the words left behind come from that gave the title to the series, the books, and the movies, is that in the Gospel of Matthew 24:37 and following verses, Jesus is in the middle of what’s called the little apocalypse in the Gospel.
他的使徒们来到他面前说——他们谈论圣殿的石头——他说有一天这些都要被拆毁。 His apostles come to Him and say—they’re talking about the stones of the temple—and He says it’s going to be torn down one day.
所以他们说，那么，这第一件事什么时候会发生？ So they say, Well, when will that happen, number one?
第二，你来临的预兆是什么？ And number two, what will be the sign of your coming?
显然，他们相信——我想当时这种想法很普遍— —当圣殿被拆毁的时候，就是他显现的时候。 Apparently, they believed—and I think it was pretty common then—that when the tearing down of the temple would come and all that, that would be the time when He appears.
他确实这样做了，对吧？ And He does that, right?
但当他回答时，很明显他在谈论两个不同的事件。 But when He responds, it begins to be clear He’s talking about two different events.
我们从历史知道，在公元70年，耶路撒冷被毁。 We know from history, you know, in 70 AD, Jerusalem gets torn down.
那是对百姓的审判。 That’s the judgment of the people.
这就是他说的，当你们看见军队围城的时候，就要逃出去，这些都发生了。 That’s when He says, When you see the troops surrounding the city, get out, and all that happened.
这回答了第一个问题：这事什么时候会发生？ But that answers the first question: when will be the time that this happens?
当你看见军队围城时，那就是审判之日——赶快逃离。 When you see the city being surrounded by troops, that’s the day of judgment—get out.
但接着他又谈到他再来时末世的事。 But then He goes on to talk about things at the very end when He returns.
所以他在回答第二个问题，但不能把这两件事混淆。 So He’s answering the second question, but you can’t confuse those two things.
这就是这段经文的背景。 So that’s the passage, the context of it.
但他们关注的是耶稣说在审判的时候，例如，两个女人在田里，一个被 取去，一个撇下；两个人在床上，一个被取去，一个撇下，诸如此类。 But what they focus on is where Jesus says that at the time of the judgment there will be, for instance, two women in the fields, and one will be taken and the other one left behind; two people sleeping in a bed, one will be taken and the other left behind, and all these things.
通过混淆这两件事，他们说，看，这意味着在秘密被提时，人们会从床 上、田里、磨坊或任何地方被提走，义人被带走，恶人留下等候审判。 By confusing those two things, they say, Oh, see, that means that in the secret Rapture they’re going to be snatched out of the bed, snatched out of the field, snatched from the mill, or wherever it is that they are, and the righteous one will be taken away and the evil one left for judgment.
首先，我要说——我认为这是教会的伟大传统，不 仅仅是公教——不，这是在谈论审判突然来临。 So first of all, I would say—and I think the great tradition of the Church, not just Catholic—is that no, that’s talking about judgment coming suddenly.
当耶路撒冷被毁时，会有人死去，也有人存活。 There will be people who die and people who survive when Jerusalem is destroyed.
但即使是最后的审判，让我们就假设是这样。 But even if it were the final judgment, let’s just grant that.
关键是耶稣说这将如同挪亚的日子：一个被取去，一个撇下。 The key here is that Jesus says it will be as it was in the days of Noah: one will be taken and one will be left behind.
好，在挪亚的日子，谁在审判中被取去？ Okay, in the days of Noah, who was taken away in judgment?
这就是他所说的。 That’s what He’s talking about.
是在审判中被取去，不是被提到空中。 It’s taken away in judgment, not snatched into the air.
在挪亚的日子，谁被取去？ In the days of Noah, who was taken away?
恶人被取去，他们被洪水冲走。 The wicked were taken away; they were washed away by the flood.
他们被淹死，他们灭亡了。 They were drowned; they were lost.
留下的是义人——挪亚和他的家人。 The ones left behind were the righteous—Noah and his family.
所以如果耶稣说这种审判如同挪亚的日子，他们完全理解错了。 So if Jesus says this kind of judgment is about those like the days of Noah, they’ve got it exactly opposite.
不是义人被取去而恶人留下，而是恶人在审判中被取去，义人留下。 It’s not that the righteous will be taken away and the wicked left behind; it’s the wicked who will be taken away in judgment and the righteous left behind.
我们都同意这一点。 And we would agree with that.
是的，就是这样发生的。 Yes, that’s what happens.
这是一个审判。 It’s a judgment.
最后，当他对山羊说，在你们下地狱之前去那个地方，基本上就是说你们要去接受审判。 Finally, when He says to the goats, Go to the place before you go to hell, basically, you’re going off to judgment.
那时他们就被带去接受审判。 They are taken away to judgment then.
这很有意思。 That’s very interesting.
确实很有意思，因为圣经只说一个被取去，一个撇下。 Forever, that’s very interesting because the Bible doesn’t say; it just says one will be taken and one will be left.
它没有说，你知道，是好人还是坏人。 It doesn’t say, you know, good or evil.
他们只是假设是好人被取去，可能是基于对帖撒罗尼迦书的错误解释。 They just assume it’s good people, perhaps based off the erroneous interpretations of Thessalonians.
但它明确地作了比较，说这将如同挪亚的日子。 But it definitely distinctly compares it and says it’s going to be the same as the days of Noah.
就像你刚才说的，恶人是被取去的，义人是留下的。 And as you just said, the evil people were the ones who were taken, and the righteous were left.
他们完全理解反了。 They do it completely backwards.
我觉得这太有意思了。 I think that’s so interesting.
而且是被带走，不是被提到空中。 And taken away, not being snatched out of the air.
你知道，在挪亚的日子没有人被提到空中进入天堂。 Nobody got snatched out of the air, you know, into heaven in Noah’s day.
但谁被带走了？ But who did get taken away?
他们在审判中被带走，被洪水冲走，被神的审判带走。 They were taken away in judgment, washed away by the flood, by the judgment of God.
是的，非常有力量，非常可怕。 Yeah, very powerful, very frightening.
要记住这就是他第二次来临时将要发生的事：恶人将受审判并被带去永远的痛苦中。 Keep in mind that’s what will happen at His second coming: the wicked will be judged and taken away to eternal misery.
很有趣的是，在超过1800年的时间里，几乎所有存在过 的基督徒都把这些经文与基督的第二次来临联系在一起。 So interesting that for basically over 1,800 years, virtually every Christian in existence ever always associated these verses with the second coming of Christ.
然后几个人——比如说其中一个女子——他们没有圣 经训练，也许还有其他人，就完全改变了这种理解。 And then a couple of individuals—who we’ll just say one of the women, for example—who have no biblical training and maybe some others as well, just completely change that.
不知怎的，他们开始传讲这个，然后慢慢地，像涓涓细流一样开始流传开来。 Somehow, they start to preach that, and it slowly starts to, like a trickle effect, catch on.
这就是为什么我们要做这个节目，你知道，因为很多人是真诚的。 And that’s why we’re doing this show, you know, because many people are sincere.
他们真诚地相信这是合乎圣经的，真诚地认为这 会发生，他们真的只是不知道事实并非如此。 They sincerely believe this is biblical; they sincerely think this is going to happen, and they really just don’t know that it’s not.
他们不知道区别，因为从来没有人告诉过他们。 They don’t know the difference because they’ve never been told.
所以我们想要为那些被这个困惑的人纠正这个信 息，帮助他们看到真正的基督教传统是什么。 So we kind of want to reverse that message for anyone who’s confused by it and help them to see what the true Christian tradition is.
是的，你知道，这也是为什么我拼命工作获得历史神学博 士学位的原因之一，因为在教会历史中，这太有用了。 Yeah, that’s, you know, and that’s one reason why I work my head off to get a PhD in historical theology, because in Church history, that’s so useful.
你面前就放着这本书。 You just have the book sitting in front of you.
这是一本伟大的书，是书中之书。 It’s a great book; it’s the book of books.
但当你去解释它时，你需要帮助。 But when you go to interpret it, you need help.
人们可以把它解释成千种方向，而首先要看的一点是教会 ，一般的基督徒，在这些世纪以来是如何解释这些的？ People can take it in a thousand directions, and one of the first places to look is how has the Church, Christians in general, even interpreted this over all the centuries?
你开始明白，哦，这个观念是特异的，是后来才有的。 You begin to see, oh, this notion is eccentric; it’s late.
直到最近才有人想到这个。 Nobody even thought of that until relatively recently.
对某些人来说，如果存在了200年，好吧，那就是永远了。 For some folks, if it’s been around 200 years, well, that’s forever.
但我记得有一次和一个人谈话，他甚至没有意识到他 说的话有多么讽刺，他说，那么，你在研究什么？ But I remember talking to a guy one time who, very without even realizing the irony of what he was saying, said, Well, what are you studying?
他说——我甚至不知道克里斯是谁——他说，你在研究什么？ And he was—I don’t even know who Chris is—he said, What are you studying?
我说，嗯，我现在正在研究教父。 I said, Well, right now I’m studying the Church Fathers.
他说，哦是的，我喜欢那些人，比如我刚才提到的慕迪之类的。 He said, Oh yeah, I like those guys, like Moody, like I mentioned a while ago, and stuff.
他把所有这些19世纪的复兴运动家都称为教父， 我想，好吧，我们这里需要多学习一些教会历史。 And he named all these 1800s revivalists as Church Fathers, and I thought, okay, we need some more Church history here.
是的，我并不是想否定或评判他们。 Yeah, and I’m not trying to dismiss it or judge them.
我是说，我们的文化普遍放弃了太多的历史和研究。 I mean, our culture in general has given up so much history and so much study.
我学到的一件事——我妈妈患有阿尔茨海默症——我对个人学到的一件 事，对社会和文化也是如此，就是如果你失去记忆，你就失去了身份。 One thing I learned—my mom had Alzheimer’s—and one of the things I learned for an individual, that’s also true of a society and culture, is that if you lose your memory, you lose your identity.
这太重要了。 That’s so important.
记忆对身份认同至关重要，因为到了某个时候，她 对过去的大部分记忆都消失了，不记得自己是谁。 Memory is critical to identity because there came a time when she, for much of her past, could not remember who she was.
我觉得我们的文化在很多方面都处于这种状态。 I feel like our culture is at that place in many ways.
我教过的大学生们，他们完全没有历史感——甚至对过去两年的历史都不了解。 I’ve taught college students who come in, and they have no sense of history at all—history from the last two years.
他们会听到'人民，人民，地上的人民'，你知道，他们会问是谁说的？ They would hear, The people, the people, the people from the earth, you know, who said that?
他们会猜是乔治·华盛顿说的，然后他们会问，是在什么时候？ And they would kind of guess George Washington, and then afterward they said, During what?
是在第一次世界大战期间吗？他们不知道是谁说的，甚至不知道林 肯不是第一次世界大战时期的人，华盛顿也不是内战时期的人。 Was it during World War I? They had no idea who said it, and they even had no idea that Lincoln was not with World War I or that Washington wasn’t with the Civil War.
我想，天啊，我们必须要学习，我们必须帮助人们学习他们的历史。 I thought, oh my goodness, so we’ve got to learn; we’ve got to help people to learn their history.
我还要补充一点，历史给你提供的背景真是令人惊叹。 And I would even add on to that, and it’s amazing the context it gives you.
是的，绝对是这样。 Yeah, absolutely.
我还要补充一点——无意冒犯——对新教来说也是如 此，在路德分离之前，他们曾是基督教会的一部分。 And I definitely would add on to that—no disrespect intended—but for Protestant religions as well, they used to be part of the Church of Christ before Luther broke away.
很长一段时间，他们记得这段历史，但后来，他们就忘记了这段 历史，某种意义上忘记了他们是谁，忘记了基督的真理是什么。 For a long time, they remembered that history, but subsequently, they’ve just forgotten that history, in a sense forgotten who they are and what the real truth of Christ is.
我觉得这很有意思。 I think that’s interesting.
许多新教徒在这一点上也有分歧，也许这是我们今天要讨论的最后一个话题。 Many Protestants even disagree on this, and maybe this is the last thing that we can talk about today.
但是，你知道，这与世界末日、基督的第二次来临有很大关系。 But, you know, this kind of has a lot to do with the end of the world, the second coming of Christ.
有些人说，你知道，耶稣会回来，只是带走他的子民。 Some people say that, you know, Jesus is going to come back and just take His people with Him.
其他人说耶稣会回到地上，真的在地上生活一千年。 Others say that Jesus is going to come back down and literally live here on earth for a thousand years.
有些人会说他会真的踏足以色列，从那里统治。 Some will say He will literally put His feet on Israel and rule from there.
你知道，有人持未来派观点，有人持过去派观点，还有其他不同的观点。 You know, there are different people who have a futurist view, a preterist view, and different things like that.
你能不能，你知道，简单地给人们介绍一下这些不同观点的 梗概，然后也许说说公教的观点是什么，为什么是正确的？ Can you talk about, you know, maybe briefly just kind of give people a nutshell version of these different views and then maybe what the Catholic view is and why it’s correct?
好的，让我看看怎么总结。 Yeah, let me see how I can summarize that.
这内容很多，我道歉。 That’s a lot; I apologize.
有一个称为千禧年主义的概念，来自拉丁语中'一千年'的词。 You have a notion that’s referred to as millenarianism, from the Latin word for a thousand years.
启示录中有一段经文，用非常比喻性的语言，以许多神秘的方式谈到基督将统治一千年。 There’s a passage in Revelation that is so figurative in its language and so mysterious in so many ways that talks about Christ will reign for a thousand years.
之后魔鬼会被释放。 And then the devil is released afterward.
他会在基督统治的一千年中被捆绑，之后被释放，然后就是终结。 He'll be bound for a thousand years with Christ's reign, and then he'll be released afterward, and then the end.
确实有一些早期基督教作家把这看作是字面意思——真的是一千年。 So you do have a couple of early Christian writers who see that as kind of a literal thing—a literal thousand years.
但很早的时候，教会就说，不，这不是这个意思。 But early on, the Church said, No, that’s not what that means.
我们不确定具体是什么意思，但不是那个意思。 We’re not sure what it means, but it doesn’t mean that.
圣奥古斯丁的观点可能是最主流的观点，就是这本书谈到的一千年和启示 录中所有的数字一样——144,000、666——都是象征性的。 St. Augustine's position has probably been the most mainstream position, that the book is talking about the thousand years like all the numbers in the Book of Revelation—144,000, 666—they're all symbolic.
如果不是这样，我是说，我们就有麻烦了，因为经上说只有144,000人得救上天堂。 If not, I mean, we’re in trouble because it talks about 144,000 being saved and going to heaven.
那么，我们其他人怎么办？ Well, then what about the rest of us?
你明白吗？ You know?
耶和华见证人就照字面意思理解，然后说我们其他人住在地上的乐园而不是天堂。 And the Jehovah's Witnesses take that literally and then say the rest of us live in an earthly paradise instead of heaven.
所以那个一千，你知道，他说是10乘10乘10，这个 数字象征着某种完满和长久，不管它字面上是什么意思。 So that thousand, you know, he says it’s 10 times 10 times 10; it’s the number kind of of great fullness and a long time, whatever it means literally.
所以圣奥古斯丁说，是的，魔鬼被基督彻底击败， 然后教会时代来临，在某种程度上，魔鬼被捆绑。 So St. Augustine said, yes, the devil is decisively defeated by Christ, and then the Church age comes where, to a certain extent, the devil is chained.
那一千年指的是教会的生命——不是字面意义上的一千年，而是很长的时间。 That thousand years refers to the life of the Church—not a literal thousand years, but a very long time.
然后在末期，当基督即将再来和大灾难时，魔鬼会回来。 Then at the end, when it is time for Christ to return soon and the great tribulation, the devil returns.
我的意思是，不是说他现在什么都不能做，但他在教会出现之前所做的事要糟糕得多。 I mean, it’s not that he can’t do anything now, but the stuff he was doing before the Church came was much worse.
他会被释放，神会让他有机会在地上做各种可怕的事——大灾难——然后基督就会来临。 He’ll be released, and God will give him the chance to do all kinds of terrible things on the earth—the great tribulation—and then Christ will come.
这被称为无千禧年说，意思是没有千禧年，但我更愿 意称之为象征性的千禧年，那一千年指的就是这个。 So that’s called amillennial, which means no millennium, but I’d rather call it kind of a symbolic millennium that the thousand years refers to that.
所以还有人相信千禧年——比如加尔文，就是新教改革家约翰·加尔文——认为这 一千年指的是地上的事物会越来越好的时期，圣灵通过他的子民进行更多的统治。 So you have others who believe that the millennium—and people like Calvin, who’s one of these, John Calvin, the Protestant reformer—that the thousand years refers to a time when we will have a time on earth of things getting better and better, and the Holy Spirit ruling more through His people.
然后在最后，我们基本上会有一个完美的世界等待耶稣回来，我们把它献给他。 Then at the end of it, we’ll basically have a perfected world that Jesus comes back to, and we give it to Him.
所以前千禧年论者认为所有这些可怕的事情会在耶稣来临并统治一千年之前发生。 So the premillennial folks think all this horrible stuff’s going to happen before Jesus comes and reigns for a little thousand years.
后千禧年论者说，不，实际上，通过圣灵的工作，情况会逐渐改善 直到变得很好，然后耶稣回来，我们就把这个作为礼物献给他。 The post-millennial guys say, No, actually, through the work of the Holy Spirit, there will be a gradual improvement until things are really good, and then Jesus comes back, and we kind of give it to Him as a gift.
而公教会会说，不，这更像是——你知道，现在的千禧年才是最常用的说法。 And the Catholics would say, no, it’s more like a—you know, present millennial would be the word that’s most often used.
我们现在就在千禧年中，我们就在这一千年里。 We’re in the millennium now; we’re in the thousand years.
教会在这里，基督通过教会统治。 The Church is here; Christ is reigning through the Church.
但在末期会有一段非常糟糕的时期。 But there will be a time at the end when it gets really bad.
所以你看到了这些解释。 So you’ve got those interpretations.
公教会特别指出，现在在教会文件、训导文件中，你在教理问答中也可以看到，千禧年主 义的观点是错误的——不会有基督在地上字面意义上统治一千年，使一切都美好完美。 The Catholic Church has specifically, now it’s a part of the Church documents, magisterial documents, and you have it also in the Catechism that the millenarian view is mistaken—that there will not be a literal rule of Christ for a thousand years here in which everything is just beautiful and perfect.
不，我们不确切知道他什么时候回来，可能在任何时候。 No, it’s that we don’t know for sure when He’s coming back; it could be at any time.
但当他回来时，他将带着他所有的荣耀，作为审判者回来，他要审判世界。 But when He does come back, then in all His glory, He will come back as judge, and He will judge the world.
所有关于最后审判的经文都会应验。 All the passages about the final judgment will be there.
死人要复活，所以每个人都会得回自己的身体，因为身体也要参与审判。 There will be a resurrection of the dead, so everyone gets their bodies back because the body will take part in the judgment as well.
将有审判，身体的复活，义人的复活。 There will be the judgment, the resurrection of the body, the resurrection of the righteous.
然后那些与神有友谊的人将被迎入天堂；他们已经在那里 了，圣徒们和天使们会在第二次来临时与他们一同回来。 Then those who are in friendship with God will be welcomed into heaven; they’ve been out already there, and the saints do come back with them and the angels at the second coming.
然后其他人被送入地狱，这一切都会发生。 Then the others set off to hell, and all that is happening.
然后魔鬼和他所有的同盟以及所有的邪恶将被最终彻底地阻止继续作恶，将会有新天新地。 Then the devil and all of his allies and all the evil will finally be definitively prevented from doing what they’ve done, and there will be a new heavens and a new earth.
我们不完全确定这意味着什么，但对于所有与主有友谊的人来说，这种天堂的状态将会 实现，我们不用再担心其他事情了——一切都已完成，一切都已结束——所有的邪恶。 We’re not exactly sure what that means, but that this heavenly condition then for all of us who are in friendship with the Lord will be done, and we don’t have to worry about all the other stuff anymore—decisively done, decisively ended—all that evil.
很好，这是个很好的总结。 Great, that’s a good summary.
谢谢你。 Thank you.
我个人觉得很有趣的是，纵观整本圣经，我想不出有任何一个例子是新教徒、 公教徒、东正教徒或其他任何人把1000这个数字按字面意思来解释的。 And I find it interesting personally that throughout the whole Bible, I mean, I can’t think of a single instance where most Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, or anyone else translates the number 1000 as a literal number.
我是说，我很确定几乎每个学者都知道这是一个象征性的数字，意味着一个很长的时期。 I mean, I’m pretty sure almost every scholar knows that it’s a symbolic number, which means a long period of time.
你知道，对我们来说的一天就像对神来说的一千天。 You know, one day to us is like a thousand days to God.
对我们来说的一千天就像对神来说的一天。 A thousand days to us is like a day to God.
但最近，一些人说，不，这一千年是字面意思，这完全背离 了所有基督教传统——不仅是公教，而是所有基督教传统。 But yet recently, some people have said, Nope, this thousand years is literal, out of a complete break with all of Christian tradition—not just Catholic, but all Christian tradition.
他们说那是字面意思。 They say that that’s literal.
我觉得这很有意思。 I find that very interesting.
再说一次，在教会历史上确实有少数人说过字面意义上的一千年统治这样的话，但我是 说，持这种观点的人数是如此之少，直到最近，你知道，每个人都会认为这很特异。 Again, you do have a few people in Church history who have said a literal thousand-year reign, that kind of thing, but I mean, it’s so minuscule the number of people that, up until recently, it was, you know, everyone would look at it as eccentric.
所以教会的伟大神学家们，追溯到教父们，都会说这是象征性的。 So the great theologians of the Church, going back to the Church Fathers, would all say it’s symbolic.
好的，所以基本上这一切都归结为被提不是秘密的来临。 Okay, so basically all of this comes down to the Rapture is not a secret coming.
不会有人在任何时候被提到空中。 There’s nobody going to be snatched into the air at any time.
《末世迷踪》电影不是真实的；这些书也不是真实的。 The movies Left Behind are not true; the books are not true.
我们真正谈论的是时间的终结，耶稣要再来审判 活人死人，在那之前不会发生这些事，对吧？ What we’re really talking about here is the end of time, where Jesus is going to come again to judge the living and the dead, and it’s not going to happen before that time, right?
是的，还要记住的重要一点是，这种被提的观念会导致人们放弃在世上行善。 Yes, and the important thing to remember again is that this other notion of the Rapture can lead people to kind of give up on trying to do anything good in the world.
反正一切都要下地狱，那我为什么要做呢？所以很重要的是要认 识到，如果我们不接受被提的观念，我们就要长期坚持下去。 Well, it’s all going to hell literally anyway, so why should I? So it’s very important to realize that if we don’t accept that Rapture notion, we’re in here for the long haul.
而且，耶稣说忍耐到底的必然得救——不是说被提走的人必然得救。 Also, that Jesus said those who endure to the end will be saved—not those who are snatched out will be saved.
所以苦难是基督徒生活的一部分，这是我成为公教徒后 发现的事情之一：关于救赎性苦难的这个美好教导。 So suffering is a part of the Christian life, and that’s one of the things I discovered becoming Catholic: this beautiful teaching about redemptive suffering.
苦难可以有救赎的目的，而整个被提观念是，我要逃避那种苦难因为我 是好人，所以我会被提走，或者至少我已经得救了，所以我会被提走。 Suffering can have a redemptive purpose, whereas the whole Rapture notion is, I’m going to escape that suffering because I’m the good guy, so I get pulled out, or at least I’ve been saved, so I get pulled out.
但这不是基督徒的生活。 But that’s not the Christian life.
去和那些在共产党统治下一生被关在劳改营的中国基督徒谈谈，如果你对他们 说，哦，你不知道当耶稣来的时候，他会秘密地来临并使我们免受苦难吗？ Talk to a Chinese Christian who’s been imprisoned in labor camps and stuff all their life under the Communist Party there, and if you were to come and say, Oh, don’t you know when Jesus comes, He’s going to come secretly and keep us from suffering?
他会把我们提走，他们会说，为什么他没有把我提走？ He’s going to snatch us out, they would say, Why didn’t He snatch me?
他们比这个更明白。 They know better than that.
纵观历史，基督徒都经历苦难，如果他们以正确的方式承担，这就是救赎性的。 All through history, Christians suffer, and if they take it the right way, it’s redemptive.
但他们确实受到迫害。 But they are persecuted.
当情况变得很糟糕时，我们不会被提走。 We’re not going to be snatched out when things get really bad.
这完全正确。 That’s exactly right.
马太福音第10章——你知道，背起你的十字架来跟从我。 Matthew chapter 10—you know, Pick up your cross and follow me.
不背起他的十字架跟从我的，与我没有相交；他不能作我的门徒。 He who does not pick up his cross and follow me has no fellowship with me; he cannot be my disciple.
我认为这是一个很关键的点：我们会受苦。 I think that’s a very crucial point: we are going to suffer.
你知道吗？ And you know what?
你完美地联系到我们在谈论马太福音24章，其中说到一个得救，一个被取去。 You made the perfect connection that we’re talking about Matthew 24, where one will be saved and one will be taken.
但耶稣也明确表示，忍耐到底的必然得救，这意味着你必须要忍受苦难直到最后才能得救。 But Jesus also makes it clear that he who perseveres to the end will be saved, meaning you’re going to have to persevere through the suffering to be saved.
太好了！ Perfect!
我是说，我认为这是对被提的很好总结。 I mean, I think that’s a great summary of the Rapture.
我是说，你写了一整本书，我要告诉我的观众——我会在描述部 分下面链接你的信息、你的网站和你所做的一切，西格彭先生。 I mean, you wrote an entire book, and I want to point my audience—I’m going to link your information, your website, and everything you do, Mr. Thigpen, down below in the description section.
我们会让人们知道在哪里可以关注你。 We’re going to let people know where they can follow you.
我们会在下面链接你的书，我强烈推荐大家去买这本书。 We’re going to link your book down there, and I would highly recommend that people get this book.
我是说，看看这本书有多厚！ I mean, look at how thick this book is!
我们只是触及了表面。 We just scratched the surface.
如果你想了解更多关于它的历史、圣经方面的信息，以及不同宗教和它 是如何形成的——我是说，这里有整整一部分是关于威廉·米勒的。 If you would like to know a lot more information on the history of it, on the biblical aspect of it, just the different religions and how it came to be—I mean, there’s a whole part on William Miller in here.
这是一个很有趣的故事。 It’s a very interesting story.
我是说，他是自学成才的，但却有这么多人追随他，这真的很有趣。 I mean, he’s self-taught, and yet so many people followed him, and it’s just so interesting.
所以我会在下面为我们的观众链接所有这些内容，我建议你们都去看看。 So I’m going to link all this down below for our audience, and I would recommend that you all check that out.
我要感谢西格彭博士今天做客公教会真理，为我们和观众解释这些内容。 I want to thank you, Dr. Thigpen, for joining us today on Catholic Truth and explaining this to us and our audience.
布莱恩，这是我的荣幸。 Brian, it’s been a great pleasure.
我祈祷上帝祝福你所有的观众，引导他们更多地 认识关于他的真理，使他们效法他儿子的形象。 I pray that God will bless all your viewers and lead them more and more to the truth about Him and conform them to the image of His Son.
阿们，这是我们的荣幸！ Amen, and the pleasure is all ours!
我们要感谢每一位收听今天播客的人，感谢你们收听公教会真理——这里是让任 何人在任何时候、任何地方都能准确了解公教会教导什么以及为什么的地方。 We just want to thank everybody for tuning into our podcast today, and thank you for tuning in to Catholic Truth—your place so that anyone, at any moment, anywhere can come to know exactly what the Catholic Church teaches and why.
请大家查看下面的节目说明。 Please check out our show notes below, everybody.
查看我们的脸书，在Instagram上关注我们，以及我们的播客。 Check out our Facebook, follow us on Instagram, and our podcast.
如果你愿意支持我们的事工，你就是我们存在的理由——为了拯救灵魂，改变生命。 If you would consider supporting our ministry, you are the reason we exist—to save souls and change lives.
所以请查看下面的所有内容。 So check that all out below.
感谢大家！ Thank you all!
请为我们祈祷；我们一直在为你们祈祷。 Please pray for us; we are always praying for you.
愿上帝保佑你们！ God bless you!