谢谢各位今天都在这里，也再次邀请我来。 Thank you, everyone, for being here, for having me here again.
我每次能和大家交流都觉得很开心，也很有收获。 It's always a blast and a joy of mine to be able to talk with you all.
今天，据我所知，如果我没记错的话，我们要讨论如何回应新教对公教的反对意见。 And today, from what I understand, if I remember correctly, we are going to be talking about responding to Protestant objections.
对吗？ Um, is this right?
是真的吧？ Is this true?
这是正确的吗？ Is this correct?
是的。 Yes.
好的。 Okay.
那么，我们有几种不同的方式可以进行讨论：我们可以先 谈一些新教徒提出的具体反对意见，或者我们也可以…… So there's a few different ways that we can do this, where we can discuss, uh, certain individual particular objections that are made by Protestants, or we could even g-...
我们也可以从比较宏观的角度来看看新教对公教的主要反对 究竟是什么，然后再展开更广泛的讨论，或者两方面都谈。 we could go broad and we could talk about, uh, what is the main objection that Protestantism has against Catholicism, and we can do something that's more general, or we can do both.
也许我们可以先从总体层面入手，然后如果你们有听到过一 些特定的问题或反对，也可以提出来，我们再深入讨论。 Maybe we can start with the general part, and then we can get into maybe if you guys have certain questions or objections that you guys have heard that you would like to address, we can do that as well.
总之，新教徒最常提出的主要反对是什么—— But basically, what is the main objection that Protestants always make against-
「唯独圣经」。 Sola Scriptura.
…… ...
公教吗？ Catholicism?
他们最主要的反对是什么？ What's the main objection?
「唯独圣经」。 Sola Scriptura.
所以，是「唯独圣经」。 So S- S- Sola Scriptura.
你们知道「唯独圣经」是什么吗？ You guys know what Sola Scriptura is?
「唯独圣经」是新教的一个教义，拉丁文意思就是只依靠圣经本身。 So Sola Scriptura is a Protestant doctrine, uh, it's just Latin for scripture alone.
这个教义的核心相信，圣经——经文——是基督徒或教会唯一毫无错误的信仰准则， And what that doctrine is, is the belief that the Bible, the scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith for the Gris-...
也就是对基督徒以及教会而言，唯有圣经才是信仰上的终极权威。 for the, for the Christian, for the church.
因此，「唯独圣经」是新教特有的信念，我们会来讨论它，但…… So Sola Scriptura is a uniquely Protestant belief, uh, which we'll address, but what...
那么，这怎么会构成一种对公教的反对呢？ how is that an objection?
因为我们正在谈他们对我们的反驳。 'Cause we're talking about objections that they make against us.
那「唯独圣经」如何成为他们用来反对公教的论点？ So how is Sola Scriptura an objection to Catholicism?
呃，它某种程度上否定了教会的权威，或者…… Uh, it kind of denies the authority of the Church or
对。 Yeah.
就是这样。 There you go.
好的。 Okay.
而且我…… and I...
那么…… So...
这其实…… this is...
昨天我在马特·普拉特的播客里提到过这点，因为我们也聊到了这个话题。 I mentioned this yesterday on Matt Pratt's podcast, because we talked about this.
他问我：「对『唯独圣经』最好的辩护是什么？」这里就要说到对「唯独圣经」的 最佳辩护。因为当我们与新教徒对话时，首先要准确理解并如实呈现他们的立场。 And he said, you know, "What would be the best defense of Sola Scriptura?" Here's, uh, uh, the best defense of Sola Scriptura, because when we engage with, with Protestants, we have to represent them correctly, first of all.
我们要明白他们真正关注的点是什么，因为他们对公教立场的疑虑很真诚。 We have to know what their concerns actually are, because they are sincere in their concerns against the Catholic position.
因此我们必须确保自己先理解他们，如果我们不 理解甚至曲解了他们的观点，我们就不会有…… So we have to make sure that we're understanding them, because if we don't understand them and we misrepresent them, we're not gonna get e-...
我们就没法真正推进任何讨论。 we're not gonna get anywhere.
所以，我认为最好的方式，就像圣托马斯·阿奎那的做法一样，先把对方的论点以最坚实、 最准确的形式表达出来，不管我们面对的是谁，都要尽量为他们的观点寻找最强的表述。 So I think the best way to do it, in the fashion of Saint Thomas Aquinas, is to steel man the position of anybody, anybody that we encounter, anybody that we interact with.
我们要努力把他们的立场强化到最好，然后再去回应。如果我 们能够驳倒他们最强的论述，对方就没有继续反驳的余地了。 We always want to steel man their position and make their position as strong as possible, so that when we engage with the strongest version of their position and we're able to prove it wrong, they will have no, no objection, no, no way to come back from it.
再说一次，这样做是为了让对话能够更好地向前推进。 And again, we do it for the sake of moving the conversation forward.
并且也希望借着神的恩典，让他们逐渐理解我们的看法。 And hopefully, by the grace of God, to get them to kind of see things our way.
而且这并不是我们个人的主张，而是教会、基督的教会、耶稣基督教会的道路。 And it's not our way, it's just the way of the Church, of the Christian Church, of Jesus Christ's Church.
所以，「唯独圣经」是新教信仰的根基。 So Sola Scriptura is the foundational belief of Protestantism.
让我先把它做成最稳固的论点…… And let me give you the steel man...
我来为「唯独圣经」做一个最强表述。 let me steel man Sola Scriptura.
好吧？ Okay?
这就是新教的立场： This is the Protestant position.
新教徒会这么说：「作为基督徒，我们想遵循使徒们的一切教导，忠实于他们的教诲。 Protestants say this, "As Christians, we want to follow everything that the apostles said, and we want to be faithful to the teachings of the apostles.
我们想要确保我们所信的一切都与使徒们的教导一致。」他们还会说：「好， We want to make sure that everything that we believe is in line with the teachings of the apostles." And what they'll say is, "Okay.
我们可以确定的是，圣经确实出自使徒们之手， The scriptures, we know for sure come from the apostles.
我们知道这些经文确实源于使徒，所以确定它们来自使徒传统。 We know that the scriptures come from the apostles, so we know for sure that that is apostolic.
至于其他种种传统，我们不确定它们是不是真的来自使徒。 All of these other things, all of these other traditions, we're not sure if they come from the apostles.
所以我们就只遵循那些确定无疑来自使徒的内容。 So let's just stick to what we know for sure, without a shadow of a doubt comes from the apostles.
就坚持这个就好。 Let's stick to that.
因为我们只想忠于使徒们的信仰和他们的教导，所以让我们紧紧遵循他们…… 'Cause we just wanna be faithful to what the apostles believed and what they taught, so let's just stick to their s-...
他们的著作，他们亲口告诉我们的那些内容，他们的信仰与教导。」这就是「唯独圣经」。 to their writings, what they tell us in their own words, what they believed and what they taught." That is, is Sola Scriptura.
实际上，你还可以更进一步说：「你知道吗？ And in fact, you could even go further and say, "You know what?
如果我们想再添加别的传统，也没关系， If we have other traditions that we want to add, that's fine.
只要它们不与使徒们所留下的文字教导相冲突就行。」然后呢， We can add other traditions as well, as long as they don't contradict what the apostles left us in their writings." And you know what?
「唯独圣经」确实是一个不错的出发点。 Sola Scriptura is a great place to start.
就当做起步点来说，「唯独圣经」相当好。 Sola Scriptura is a fantastic place to start.
你不一定要停留在「唯独圣经」，但是可以从那里开始。 You don't wanna end with Sola Scriptura, but you can start with Sola Scriptura.
这是一个很好的起点。 That's a perfect place to start.
然而，这就是为什么最终「唯独圣经」…… So here's why ultimately, though, Sola Scriptura wo-...
并不能真正成立的原因。 doesn't work.
因为把圣经视为对信徒、对基督徒、对教会唯一毫无错 误的权威，这样的教义本身并没有出现在经文当中。 Because this belief that the scriptures are the sole, infallible authority for the believer, for the Christian, for the Church, that doctrine is actually not found in the Scriptura.
也就是说，「唯独圣经」本身并没有出现在圣经里。 Sola Scriptura is not found in the Scriptura.
没有哪一节或几节经文…… There isn't a single verse or set of verses that...
你无法找到能直接证明新教那种「唯独圣经」教义的经节。 you know, verses that you can put together that would demonstrate or show the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
在圣经里找不到这样的教导。 That doesn't exist in the Bible.
确实没有。 It doesn't exist.
那么你们谁知道，有哪些常见的经文段落是新教徒会用来试图证明「唯独圣经」的？ Now, who here knows, what are some common passages or verses that Protestants will appeal to to try and prove Sola Scriptura?
谁知道？ Who, who knows?
你们知道他们会用哪些经文吗？ You guys know what they, what they appeal to?
有一段经文是新教徒常用来声称证明「唯独圣经」的：就是使徒圣保罗 在提摩太后书三章十六到十七节，那里提到「圣经都是神所默示的」。 So there's one in particular that Protestants will always go to, and that they think that this verse proves Sola Scriptura, and it's from, uh, Saint Paul's second letter to Timothy 3:16-17, where it says that all scripture is inspired by God.
事实上，我先念给你们听，免得我用自己的话说走样了。我直接逐字 念，这样你们就能知道新教徒是用什么经文来为他们的教义辩护。 Matter of fact, let me read it.Uh, so I don't butcher it, 'cause I- I have a habit of paraphrasing, let me read it word for word so you guys can know what it is that, uh, Protestants will appeal to when they try to prove this, um, Protestant belief.
提摩太后书三章十六节这样说：「All scripture is inspi red by God and profitable for teachin g, for reproof, for correction, and f or training in righteousness that the man of God may be complete and equip ped for every good work.」这是提摩太后书三章十六到 十七节。对应和合本如下：「圣经都是神所默示的，于教训、督责、使人 归正、教导人学义都是有益的，叫属神的人得以完全，预备行各样的善事。」 So Second Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness that the man of God may be complete and equipped for every good work." So that's Second Timothy 3:16-17.
许多新教徒以为这节经文可以证明「唯独圣经」，但事实上并没有。 Many Protestants think that this actually proves Sola Scriptura, but it doesn't.
因为，再重复一遍，「唯独圣经」的定义是什么？ Because again, what is the definition of Sola Scriptura?
它指的是唯一毫无错误的权威来源。 It's the only infallible authority.
也就是对信徒而言，只有圣经才是没有错误的最高权威。 That scripture is the only infallible authority for the believer.
但提摩太后书第三章并没这么讲。 Second Timothy 3 doesn't say that.
它所说的是经文是神所默示的，能用于教导、责备、纠正、使人 学义，好让神的人得以完全、装备齐全、可以行各样的善事。 What it says is that scripture is inspired, that all scripture is inspired by God, and that it's profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete and equipped for every good work.
这就是提摩太后书第三章对圣经的描述。 That's what Second Timothy 3 says about scripture.
这并不是「唯独圣经」。尽管很多新教徒会引用这节经文字面上试图说明 「你看，这就是在说我们只需要圣经」，但事实上并没有说那样的话。 That's not Sola Scriptura, though many Protestants will appeal to this verse and try and say, "Look, this right here is saying that all we need is scripture," even though that's not what it says.
那我们怎知道这里并没有教导「唯独圣经」呢？ And how do we know that this isn't teaching Sola Scriptura?
因为如果你再去看新约的其他地方，去看使徒圣保罗的另一封书信，以弗所书…… Because if you go to another part of the New Testament, to another one of the writings of Saint Paul the Apostle, and let's go to it, it's in Ephesians.
让我们翻到以弗所书第四章。 Let's go to Ephesians chapter 4.
从第十一节开始，他这样讲到教会： He says this about the church, starting in verse 11.
以弗所书四章十一节开始说：「And his gifts, the gift of the Holy Spirit, were that some sho uld be apostles, some prophets, some e vangelists, some pastors and teachers. ..（以下略）」和合本对应如下：「他所赐的，有使徒，有先知，有传福 音的，有牧师和教师。为要成全圣徒，各尽其职，建立基督的身体。直等到我们众人在 真道上同归于一，认识神的儿子，得以长大成人，满有基督长成的身量，使我们不再作 小孩子，中了人的诡计和欺骗的法术，被一切异教之风摇动，飘来飘去，就随从各样的 异端。惟用爱心说诚实话，凡事长进，连于元首基督；全身都靠他联络得合式，百节各 按各职，照着各体的功用彼此相助，便叫身体渐渐增长，在爱中建立自己。」 Ephesians 4, starting in verse 11 says this, "And his gifts, the gift of the Holy Spirit, were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ until we all attain the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness and deceitful wiles.
这段话非常长，大意是，我们要在爱中持守真理，凡事长进，连于基督 元首，从他而来，整个身体靠着百节相连，共同运作，在爱里成长。 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him, who is the head into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, uh, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and up- holds itself in love." That's one long sentence.
看看使徒圣保罗对教会、以及教会事工所讲的这些内容。 But look at everything that Saint Paul just said about the church, about the ministries of the church.
他提到了使徒、先知、传福音的、牧师、教师等等，为要装备圣徒完成 各样善工，建立基督的身体，使大家在信仰上合一，认识神的儿子，达 到成熟，在基督丰满的身量里不再像小孩子般轻易被各样教导摇晃。 He mentions apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, to equip the saints for every good work of ministry, the building up of the body of Christ, um, the unity of the faith, the knowledge of the Son of God, mature manhood, the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we no longer be children, so that we're no longer tossed back and forth and carried along with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men and by their craftiness and deceitful wiles.
所以，看看使徒圣保罗是如何描述教会，以及教会为我们所做的一切。 So look at everything that Saint Paul the Apostle said about the church, what the church does for you.
如果把以弗所书四章十一到十五节和提摩太后书三章十六到十七节对比一下，会 发现有意思的是，使徒圣保罗对于教会的论述，甚至比对经文的描述还要多。 Compare Ephesians 4:11-15 to Second Timothy 3:16-17, and the irony is that Saint Paul actually says way more things about the church than he does even about scripture.
接着我要指出，提摩太前书三章十五节说教会是「真理的柱石和根基 」。和合本对应：「倘若我耽延日久，你也可以知道在神 的家中当怎样行。这家就是永生神的教会，真理的柱石和根基。」 And then also, I'll point out that First Timothy 3:15 says that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
因此，「唯独圣经」也许是个不错的起始点，但当你真正深入圣经时，你会发现它实际上告 诉我们，教会对所有信徒、所有跟随耶稣基督的人，确实拥有真正、明确、权威性的职能。 So Sola Scriptura's a great place to start with, but when you actually go into the Scriptura and you read it, what you're going to find is that the scripture tells us that the church has true, authentic, definitive authority over all of her subjects, over all of the Christians, all of us who follow Jesus Christ.
教会是有权柄管辖我们的。 The church has authority over us.
教会确实有权威，而这是被…… The church has true authority, and it's given...
教会的权威是直接从耶稣基督而来的。 The- the- the au- the authority of the church comes from Jesus Christ Himself.
所以光从圣经本身，你也会知道教会确实拥有不会错误的权威。 So if you have just the Bible alone, from the Bible alone, you- you will know that the church is indeed an infallible authority.
关键在这里。 Here's the thing.
你们知道「infallible」这个词在圣经里从来没有出现过吗？ You guys know that the word infallible is never used in the Bible?
圣经里没有用「infallible」这个词。 The Bible doesn't use the word infallible.
确实没有，对吗？ It's not there, right?
可新教徒们还是会读提摩太后书三章十六节，虽然圣经里从未用「 infallible」来形容经文，但他们还是会说：「你看， 只有圣经是绝对不会错误的。」这其实就是「唯独圣经」的主张。 So Protestants will read Second Timothy 3:16, and even though the word infallible is not used ever to des- you know, as an adjective for the scriptures, they will still say, "You know, you know, only scripture is infallible," is basically what Sola Scriptura is.
但这时你可以指出许多其他提到教会的经文，比如教会是「真理的柱石和根基」 ，还有我刚才读的以弗所书第四章，说教会能够装备我们应对所有这些方面。 But then you can point to a- all of the other verses that talk about the church, that the church is the pillar and the foundation of truth, and what I just read from Ephesians 4, that the church is able to equip us for all, for all of these things.
另外，如果我们看马太福音第十六章和第十八章，耶稣基督把捆绑和 释放的权柄交给使徒们，尤其在路加福音二十二章里，耶稣更是为彼 得的信心不至失落而祈祷，从而也等于是为彼得的不会错误恳求。 And then also if we go to, like, Matthew 16 and Matthew 18, where Jesus Christ gives, uh, his apostles the authority to bind and loose, in particular with the Apostle Peter in Luke 22 when he, um, uh, prays that his faith not fail, that where he's literally praying for the infallibility of Peter.
在使徒行传、保罗书信以及其他书信当中，我们都能见到教会确 实拥有真正、明确的权威——只要读圣经本身，你也能得出这样 一个完全符合圣经的结论：教会对基督徒也同样具有权威。 And when you see all over the Book of Acts and all over the writings of Paul and all over the writings th- uh, all over the other epistles that the church actually has this true, authentic authority, from the Bible alone, from scripture alone, from Sola Scriptura, you will be able to arrive at a position that is 100% biblical that the church is also an authority, al- also an authority, uh, over the Christian as well.
所以并不只有圣经本身而已。 So it's not just the scripture.
还要记住这一点： And also remember this.
先有哪个？ What came first?
圣经先出现，还是教会先出现？ What came first, the Bible or the church?
是教会。 Church.
先有了教会。 The church came first.
当然，一些新教徒会反驳说：「不，圣经更早，因为在教会成立之前，就已经 有希伯来经文了。」在耶稣基督建立教会以前，旧约经文就已存在，不是吗？ Now, there are Protestants who will object to this, and they'll say, "No, the scriptures came first because the Hebrew scriptures were already in existence before the foundation of the church." Before Jesus Christ gave us the church, they already had the Hebrew scriptures, right?
这是他们会提出的观点。 That's what they will point out.
可是光有希伯来经文并不等于整本圣经，因为圣 经是神给人类的完整启示，包括旧约和新约。 But the Hebrew scriptures alone are not the Bible, because the Bible is the full, complete revelation that God gave to mankind, and that's in the Old Testament and in the New Testament.
所以换句话说，真正要问的是：到底是教会先出现，还是那部 完整合集的、受默示的著作——也就是整本圣经——先出现？ So to better phrase, to better phrase the question is, what came first, the church or the full, complete collection of inspired writings that make up the Bible?
答案是教会…… The church....
因为那些…… because those...
组成整本圣经的所有受默示著作，其实是通过教会而传下来的。 the full complete collection of inspired writings that make up the Bible came from the Church.
神借着教会将它们赐给我们。 God gave them to us through the Church.
所以，没有教会，就不会有我们现在称为圣经的完整体系。 So you cannot have the Bible without the Church.
确实是教会更先出现，因为正是教会把这些经文汇编在一起。 The Church actually came first, because it was the Church that actually put the Scriptures together.
因此，新教及其核心教义「唯独圣经」的第一个难 题在于：「唯独圣经」并没有被圣经本身所教导。 So, the first strike against Protestantism and their core doctrine, Sola Scriptura, is that Sola Scriptura isn't taught in the Bible.
第二个问题是，圣经里事实上宣示了教会所拥有的决定性权威。 The second, you know, knock is that in the Bible, the Bible actually teaches about the definitive authority of the Church.
这是第二个关卡。 That's the second strike.
而第三个关卡，则是一个新教徒没法回答的问题。 But then the third strike is a question that Protestants are unable to answer.
持「唯独圣经」的基督徒没法回答的，就是：你们怎么知道圣经是完整的？ Protestants cannot answer this question, and this is the question that those Christians who believe in Sola Scriptura, the question that they can't answer is this: How do you know that the Bible is complete?
你怎么确定圣经并没有缺少某些书卷，或者没有夹入不该在圣经里的书卷？ How do you know that the Bible isn't missing books or that it includes books that shouldn't belong in the Bible?
你又如何得知？ How do you know?
如果他们坚持「唯独圣经」的立场，他们就无法回答这个问题。 That's actually a question that Protestants actually can't answer, especially if they use Sola Scriptura.
如果他们的信念是圣经才是信徒唯一不会出错的权威，那么问题就来了：好， If their belief is that only the Scriptures, that that's the only infallible authority for the believer, then the question is okay.
你手上的圣经，翻开扉页，你看到目录——这个目录在圣经经文哪一页找得到？ The Bible that you have, that you open up to the front page and you see the table of contents, where do you find the table of contents in the Bible in the pages of Scripture?
你找不到，因为由哪些受默示的著作组成整本圣 经，这个完整的清单在经文里根本没有列出来。 You don't, because the complete list of inspired writings that make up the Bible is found nowhere in the pages of Scripture.
你无法凭经文确认「旧约的Judas书」是否受默示。 You cannot go anywhere in Scripture to know that the Old Testament Book of Judas is inspired.
也无法从经文里确认希伯来书是否受默示。 You cannot go anywhere in Scripture to know that the Epistle of the Hebrews is inspired.
找不到任何经文告诉我们说：「这里就是全部的圣经 书卷清单」，让你知道哪些书属于圣经的完整收录。 You cannot go anywhere in Scripture where one of the writers of Scripture, one of the inspired authors gives us a complete list that says, "Here are all of the books of the Bible," and then gives us the whole list.
这份清单并不存在于圣经文本中。 That, that, that doesn't exist.
圣经并没有告诉我们哪些归入圣经之内。 The Bible doesn't tell us what belongs in the Bible.
因此，如果你坚持「唯独圣经」，实际上你就只能先假定你手上的经文就是全部的圣经。 So if you hold to Sola Scriptura, you actually have to assume the Scriptura.
而一旦如此，那就意味着你必须依赖经文之外的某种权威来告诉你：「什么才是经文」。 And if you're assuming the Scriptura, that means that you have to be relying on some authority outside of the Scriptura to even know what the Scriptura is.
所以我们向他们提出的问题是：你怎么知道这就是完整 的经文，它既不缺少任何东西，也没有多余的内容？ So then the question, the question that we've composed to them that they can't answer is, how do you know that this is the Scriptura, that there's nothing missing or that it doesn't have anything that doesn't belong?
你怎么知道？ How do you know?
他们没法回答这个问题。 And they can't answer that question.
你要如何客观地知道？ How do you know objectively?
他们并没有答案。 They don't have an answer for that question.
我并没有曲解他们， And I'm not misrepresenting them.
也没有把他们当成稻草人随意攻击。 I'm not straw-manning them.
这就是事实。 This is just, uh, uh, the fact.
如果「唯独圣经」是你的根基，你就无法自圆其说地回答这个问题。 If Sola Scriptura is your foundation, then you cannot answer this question coherently.
还有一点。 And here's another thing.
如果我们只被圣经文字所约束，那就意味着目录本身，也就是那份「哪些 著作被视为受默示而组成整本圣经的清单」——我们称之为「正典」—— If we are only bound, if we are only bound by what is in the pages of Scripture, what that means is that that table of contents, that full list of the inspired writings that make up the Bible, that canon, that's what we call it, the canon of Scripture...
让我这样来说吧： So let me put it to you this way.
我们之所以知道「唯独圣经」行不通， Here's how we know Sola Scriptura doesn't work.
对吗？ Right?
我们已经知道「唯独圣经」的定义是什么了。 The definition of Sola Scriptura, we know what that is.
问一个新教徒：「好，你相信『唯独圣经』。 Ask a Protestant, say, "Okay, you believe in Sola Scriptura.
翻开你手中的圣经，看那份目录，然后问他：『这个目录本身，算是一个 决定性的信仰准则吗？』也就是，所有基督徒都必须接受这份目录吗？ Open up the, the Bible to, to that table of contents and say, 'This table of contents, is this table of contents a definitive rule of faith?'" Meaning, are all Christians bound to hold to this table of contents?
我们必须遵守它吗？ Are we bound to hold to it?
你觉得新教徒会怎么回答？ What do you think Protestants will say?
大概会说：「是的。」 Yeah, probably.
那些没意识到这个逻辑困境的新教徒可能会这么回答。 Protestants that aren't aware of this dilemma, they're gonna say yes.
但如果答案是「是的」，那么它就已经推翻了「唯独圣经」。 But if the answer is yes, then you just disproved Sola Scriptura.
因为既然只有经文自身可以作为信仰准则，而目录（也就是正典清单）并没有写在经文 当中，你现在就不得不借助经文以外的东西，这样一来，「唯独圣经」就被抵消了。 Because if only what's inside of Scripture is a definitive rule of faith, but the table of contents, the canon, is not in the Scripture, you've, you've just thrown Sola Scriptura under the bus, 'cause now you're appealing to something outside of Scripture.
所以「唯独圣经」和「一份定死的目录」无法同时成立。 So Sola Sc- so you can't have both.
你没办法既认可一份界定了所有经卷的固定清单，又同时坚持「唯独圣经」。 You cannot have a defined, d- you know, set list of books and hold to Sola Scriptura at the same time.
这二者无法并存。 You can't have those two things.
是不可能的。 It's not possible.
再说一次，我并没有曲解新教徒，因为你猜怎样？ And y- and again, I'm not misrepresenting the, the, the Protestants here, because guess what?
最优秀、最顶尖的新教护教学者也承认这一点。 The very best, the very top Protestant apologists, they admit this.
你在网上、YouTube上、或者学术界、神学圈都 能找到一些新教神学家和学者，他们都会承认这一点。 The top Protestant apologists that you can find on the internet, on YouTube, online, even, you know, the theologians and scholars, they'll admit this.
他们会说：「是的，经文正典的范围并不是信仰准则。」他们承认这点 ，因为倘若他们说正典也是，那么就得把「唯独圣经」扔到一边了。 They'll say, "Yeah, the canon o- the canon of Scripture is not a rule of faith." They'll admit it, 'cause they know that if they say it is, now they ha- they have to, they have to l- throw Sola Scriptura under the bus.
他们不想那么做，所以只好硬着头皮说：「圣经正典并没有封闭。」这是他们给出的说法。 And they're not willing to do that, so they have to bite the bullet and say, "The canon of Scripture is not closed." That's what they, that's what they say.
嗯。 Hm.
「并没有定案。」 "It's not closed."
他们说还没封闭？ They say it's not closed?
他们说并没有封闭。 They say it's not closed.
因为如果把它确定下来，那就表示这是一个定论。 Because if you close it, that means it's definitive.
而一旦是定论，而且确实是…… And if it is definitive, and it is, is...
你可以用那种已经确定封闭的教导，也就是正典，来约束整个教会、每个 基督徒的良心，那么「Sola Scriptura」就不成立了。 you, you can bind the conscience of a, of a Christian, of the entire Church, with that closed definitive teaching, which is the canon, then Sola Scriptura is not true.
所以他们让这个可能性保持开放—— So they're leaving the door open for-
他们留下了…… They leave the...
是的。 Yes.
…… ...
启示。 revelation.
对。 Yes.
而且，最…… And the, the very...
就是…… The, the...
还有一点。 So here's another thing.
新教徒会同意启示在使徒时代就结束了。 They, Protestants, will agree that revelation ceased with the time of the apostles.
嗯哼。 Uh-huh.
他们会这么说。 They'll say that.
不过你知道有趣的是什么吗？ You know what's funny though?
圣经并没有这么说。 The Bible doesn't say that.
你们有没有注意到，新教徒相信很多被视为确定的信条，其实并没有 记载在圣经里。比如，你们知道圣经并没有说以后不会再有使徒吗？ Did you gu- you know, there's a whole lot of things that Protestants believe to be definitive rules of faith that actually, i- those things actually aren't in the Bible.Like, you guys know that the Bible doesn't say that there won't be any more apostles?
但是我们公教、东正教、新教都同意如今再没有使徒了。 But we all agree, Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, we all agree that there are no more apostles.
可圣经其实没说不再有使徒。 But the Bible doesn't say there are no more apostles.
然而新教徒还是会认同这一点，尽管圣经并没有这样教导。 But the Protestants will agree with us, even though the Bible doesn't teach it.
他们还把它视为一个确定的信仰准则。 And they see that as a definitive rule of faith.
但这…… But it- it...
这是你还可以指出的另一点。 That's another, another thing you can say.
比如可以说：「哦，你相信现在没有更多使徒了？ Be like, "Oh, you believe that there are no more apostles?
那你就得放弃『Sola Scriptura』，因为『S ola Scriptura』没教这个。」它没这样说。 Then you have to get rid of Sola Scriptura, 'cause Sola Scriptura doesn't teach that." It doesn't say that.
神父，请继续。 Go ahead, Father.
那么，「Sola Scriptura」出自谁之手？ So, Sola Scriptura comes from whom?
好的，「Sola Scriptura」…… So, Sola Scriptura, that...
「Sola Scriptura」这个概念，实际上我们在历史上 首次看到，是在十四世纪由扬·胡斯提出的，他后来被定为异端。 The idea of Sola Scriptura, actually, the first time that we see it in history is in the 14th century, uh, by, uh, Jan Hus, who was condemned to be a heretic.
嗯，威克里夫和扬·胡斯这两位，都是十四、十五世纪的基督徒， Uh, so both Wycliffe and Jan Hus, from the 14th and 15th centuries, they were Christians who were...
他们其实…… They were actually...
其中一位实际上…… One of them was actually...
我记得他们两个人都是祭司。 They were both priests, I think, actually.
威克里夫是祭司，对吧？ Wycliffe was a priest, right?
是的。 Yeah.
威克里夫和扬·胡斯都是祭司，他们最早提出「Sola Scriptura」这个想 法，因为他们不喜欢教会对他们进行管教，原因是他们当时持有一些被视为异端的主张。 Wycliffe and Jan Hus were both priests, and they were both the first ones to, uh, posit this idea of Sola Scriptura, because they didn't like, uh, they didn't like that the Church was disciplining them, because they ha- held to certain heresies.
然后，过了两百年，到十六世纪，也就是一五零零年代的时候，马丁·路德——他也是位 祭司，先是多明我会成员，后来又是奥斯定会的祭司——他又把这个观点重新带回来了。 And then, 200 years later, in the 16th century, uh, in the 1500s, Martin Luther, who was also a priest, he was a Dominican, uh, and a August- Augustinian priest, he brought it back.
他就说：「嘿，你知道吗？扬·胡斯相信『Sola Scriptur a』。」于是他接受了这个观点，尽管扬·胡斯已经被教会定为异端。 He, he said, "Hey, you know," uh, you know, "Jan Hus, um, he believed in Sola Scriptura." So he adopted that idea, even though Jan Hus was a condemned heretic.
事实上，历史上有个非常著名的时刻是当扬…… And actually, one of the very famous moments in, in history was when Jan...
当马丁·路德受审时，教会在审理是否要判他为异 端，那个时候有句非常著名的话，他们问他…… when, uh, Martin Luther was on trial, when the Church was trying him to see if they were going to condemn him as a heretic, there's this famous line where they ask him, uh, uh...
他们说：「嘿，你现在教的这些……」因为不只是「Sola Scriptura」 ，马丁·路德还从威克里夫和扬·胡斯那里继承了其他一些被视为异端的内容，对吗？ Well, they're, "Hey, what you're teaching right now..." 'Cause it wasn't just Sola Scriptura, but there was other heresies that Martin Luther got from those two guys, from Wycliffe and, and, and Jan Hus, right?
而扬·胡斯的追随者被称为胡斯派。 And the f- the followers of Jan Hus were called Hussites.
然后他们问马丁·路德：「嘿，这听起来就像你是从扬·胡斯那里学来的。 And they asked Martin Luther, they were like, "Hey, this sounds like you got this from, from, from Jan Hus.
是不是？」马丁·路德就非常戏剧性地回答：「是 的，我是胡斯派。」他说完以后，全体会议都…… Did you?" And Martin Luther dramatically says, "Yes, I am a Hussite." And when he said that, like, the whole council was like...
他们都已经准备好要，那个，你知道…… They were ready to, like, you know...
他们都准备对他施以极刑。 They were ready to, like, execute him.
所以，答案就是它源自十四、十五世纪的这两位被定为异端的人，然后在十六世纪，马丁 ·路德又把它重新提了出来，并得以推行，然后其他新教改革的创始人也纷纷采纳了它。 Um, so the answer is that it came from these two heretics in the 14th and 15th century, and then in the 16th century, um, Martin Luther brought it back and he was able to get away with it, and then it was adopted by all of these other, all of the other original Protestant Reformers.
而到了今天，我们就看到新教里已经有成千上万个教派。 And then today, we now have thousands and thousands and thousands of denominations in, in Protestantism.
神父，请讲。 Go ahead, Father.
那么，新教的护教学者会如何—— So, then how do the Protestant apologists-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
回应来自哥林多前书的内容呢？ respond to quotes from 1 Corinthians?
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
就像说，我不愿意受人心的变化和人的欺骗带动—— That, you know, I'm not going to be subject to the whims of men and the wiles of men that come up-
对。 Right.
…… ...
因为这些很明显是来自人的诡计—— because these are obviously from the wiles of men-
对。 Right.
…… ...
在那之后1400年—— 1400 years after-
对。 Right.
…… ...
扬·胡斯。 Huss.
嗯，这就是新教徒会说的，因为现在新教徒又会……他们也同样会强调…… Well, well, here's where Protestants will say, because now Protestants, again, they, they appreciate the fact...
所以最优秀的新教徒会认同我刚才讲的这些，他们会让步。 So the very, very best of Protestants, they will concede everything that I'm telling you, they'll concede it.
他们会说正典并没有封闭，或者说正典并不绝对，因为如果正典是绝对 确立的，那就不能坚持「Sola Scriptura」了，对吗？ They will say the canon isn't closed or the canon isn't definitive, because if, if the canon is definitive, then we can't hold it to Sola Scriptura, right?
不过他们同样会承认…… Um, but they will also, um, concede...
这就是现在新教徒所做的事。 Thi- this is what Protestants are now doing.
他们会说「Sola Scriptura」并不是一个教义。 They will say that Sola Scriptura isn't a doctrine.
他们会说「Sola Scriptura」是一种认识论框架。 They will say that Sola Scriptura is an epistemological framework.
这是他们给它的称呼。 That's what they, that's what they will call it.
他们会说：「它不是教义，而是一种认识论框架。」他们认为这样就可以摆脱问题。 They'll say, "It's not a doctrine, it's an epistemological framework." And they think that they can get out of it.
他们之所以这么想，是因为他们知道圣经确实没 有教导「Sola Scriptura」。 They think that they can get out of it because, because they, they appreciate the fact that the scripture doesn't teach Sola Scriptura.
所以，如果「Sola Scriptura」是个教 义，那它就会自相矛盾，因为圣经里并没有教导它。 So, if Sola Scriptura is a doctrine, it's self-defeating, because it's not taught in the scr- in the Scriptura.
但如果把「Sola Scriptura」仅仅视作一种认识论 框架，那么就还能继续坚持「Sola Scriptura」。 But if Sola Scriptura is just an epistemological framework, then you can still hold to Sola Scriptura.
可问题在于，如果它只是一种认识论框架，你就无法强 迫我的良心去遵守这个框架，因为这并不属于教义。 But the problem is, if it's only an epistemological framework, you cannot bind my conscience to hold to this epistemological framework, 'cause it's not a doctrine.
因为我们要知道，基督徒的良心只能被耶稣基督向使徒所启示的内容所约束。 Because we are c- You know, the conscience of the Christian can only be bound to whatever was revealed by Jesus Christ to his apostles.
连教会也不能用任何不属于神的启示范围内的东西来约束我们。 And not even the Church can bind us to anything that isn't part of Revelation, of Divine Revelation.
当我们谈到教义的时候，如果不在信仰的传承之内，教会就不能要求我们必须相信。对吧？ The Church cannot bind us to anything that is not part of the Deposit of Faith, when we're talking about doctrines, right?
教会可以在规范层面上约束我们。 The Church can bind us to disciplines.
教会也可以在礼仪或遵守事项上约束我们，因为你知道， 圣经也有提到这些内容，比如在马太福音第十八章里。 The Church can, can, can bind us to observances, because, you know, that's another thing that, that the Scripture tells us, like in Matthew 18.
教会在纪律或教规方面有权限，而不仅仅是教义方面，对吗？ The Church is able to bind us in matters of discipline, not just doctrine, right?
这又是新教徒会遇到的另一件麻烦事。 So that's a whole something extra that Protestants would have a problem with.
但是，教会不能强迫我们以公教信仰去相信某些 并非属于信仰传承的东西，也就是那些不在…… But, uh, the Church cannot bind us to believe something with a divine and Catholic faith that isn't part of the Deposit of Faith, that isn't part...
不属于我们所说的教义或信条的范畴里。 that isn't what would be called dogma or dogmatic.
所以，「Sola Scriptura」，那些最优秀的新教护教 者现在会说：「『Sola Scriptura』不是教义，而是 认识论框架。」但如果它只是认识论框架，那就不能强迫我接受它。 So, Sola Scriptura, the best of Pro- the very best of Protestant apologetics, they are now saying, "Sola Scriptura is not a doctrine, it's an epistemological framework." But again, if it's just an epistemological framework, then you can't bind me to it.
然后，这就引出了「Sola Scriptura」的问题所在。 And then, here's what leads to the, the problem with Sola Scriptura.
从实际操作层面，我们由此可以看出「Sola S criptura」并不是真的，而且无法行得通。 This is, this is how we know, in practice, that Sola Scriptura is not true and that it doesn't work.
因为如果我们和新教徒一样，先假设「Sola Scr iptura」是真的，那么它实际上带来了什么后果？ Because if S- you know, Sola Scriptura, we assume that it's true, like how Protestants assume that it's true, what has Sola Scriptura actually led to?
因为新教的护教学者、新教神学家以及改革者会说：「如果我们都坚持『S ola Scriptura』，就可以在教义上达成统一。」可问题是： Because what Protestant apologists, what Protestant theologians, the Reformers, what they say is that, "If we all hold to Sola Scriptura, we will all be united in matters of doctrine." Here's the problem.
新教已经分裂成成千上万个不同宗派，他们在教义上彼此都不一致…… Protestantism has splintered into thousands and thousands and thousands of different denominations that all disagree with each other in matters of doctrine....
但他们都在读同一本圣经，而且都声称自己奉行「Sola Scriptura」。 yet they all read the same Bible and they all claim to follow Sola Scriptura.
因此，如果「Sola Scriptura」真的能够让大家统一，对吧？ So if Sola Scriptura actually allows for unity, right?
如果「Sola Scriptura」本该让我们根据圣经 的文字在教义上合一，为什么最后却出现了数不清的宗派？ If Sola Scriptura is, is supposed to make us all united in doctrine because we're just going by what the Bible says, why has that led to thousands and thousands of denominations?
有一点我必须先澄清，因为我知道很多新教徒——也许正 在看的人——会对我说的几千几千这个数字感到胃疼。 And there's something that I need to address, 'cause I know that, you know, many Protestants, y- you know, probably the ones that are watching right now are, are pulling their hair out because I, I used the thousands and thousands number.
很多新教徒对这成千上万的数字非常反感，对吗？ Many Protestants really object to that number, about the thousands and thousands and thousands, right?
他们不喜欢这个数字，对吧？ They don't like that number, right?
有点好笑，也很讽刺，因为当我和新教徒交谈，提到三万、四 万、甚至五万个新教宗派时，他们就会说：「那不是真的！ A- and it's kind of funny, it's kind of ironic, because Protestants, when- when- whenever I've, I've had conversations with Protestants and I bring up that number, 30,000 or even 40,000 or even 50,000 denominations of Protestantism, they'll say, "That's not true!
实际上差不多两百个。」所以他们不喜欢三万、四万、五万，或者成千上万这种说法。 There's like 200." So they don't like the 30 or 40 or 50,000 or the thousands and thousands and thousands.
他们会说：「嘿，那不是真的。 They'll say, "Hey, that's not true.
新教只有两百个宗派。」然后我就会说：「等一下。好吧，那么咱 们就用你这个保守数字：新教里面有两百个宗派，他们都坚持『S ola Scriptura』，可是他们教义上并不一致。 There's only 200 denominations." I'm like, "Wait a second." Okay, let's, okay, let's take your conservative number then, 200 denominations within Protestantism that all hold the Sola Scriptura, yet they do not agree with each other in matters of doctrine.
这也就是他们为何彼此分裂成不同宗派的原因。 And that's why they're separate, distinct deno- denominations.
所以即便我们使用这个保守的数字，我们就这么算吧，好吧，让我们来看看。 So even if we use the conservative number, let's, okay, let's, let's go for it.
两百。 200.
两百并不等于一，而圣经告诉我们耶稣基督的教会应该是合一的，而不是两百个。 200 is not one, and the scriptures tell us that the Church of Jesus Christ needs to be one, not 200.
那么，如果我们…… So then, if we...
那我们就先看这个问题吧。 Let's stick with the other one, then.
那对他们来说，问题就是：好呀，为什么新教里会有两百个在教义上彼此不同意的宗派？ So the question for them would be, okay, why are there 200 denominations of Protestantism that disagree with each other on matters of doctrine?
他们无论是在教义、教会治理还是敬拜上都不统一， 可是都坚守「Sola Scriptura」。 They're u- they're not united with each other in matters of doctrine or governance or worship, yet they all hold the Sola Scriptura.
如果「Sola Scriptura」是要让我们合一，为什么它却让新教更加分裂？ If Sola Scriptura is supposed to unite us, why has it fractured Protestantism more?
我之所以会说到几千，甚至三万、四万、五万这个规模的原因是…… And the reason that I say the thousands, that I give the thousands figure and that I can even go as high as 30,000 or 40,000 or 50,000 is because...
你们当中有多少人听说过「不隶属任何宗派的教会」？ How many of you have ever heard of the non-demon- non-denominational church?
好的，不隶属宗派的教会存在一个问题。 Okay, here's the problem with the non-denominational church.
每一个不隶属宗派的教会，其实等同于一个独立宗派。 Every non-denominational church is its own denomination.
这条街拐角处的不隶属宗派教会，和街另一头的不隶属宗派教会，彼此并没有共融关系。 The non-denominational church that's right here on the corner is not in communion with the non-denominational church that's right here down the street.
所以这就是两个相互独立的宗派。 So these are two separate denominations.
而光是在美国，不隶属宗派教会的保守估计就有大约两万七千个。 And in the United States alone, a conservative number of non-denominational churches in the United States is about 27,000.
这是一个相当保守的数字。 And that's conservative, that's a conservative number.
大约两万七千个不同的不隶属宗派教会。 About 27,000 different non-denominational churches.
因此，这两万七千个就是两万七千个不同的教会，因为他们在教义上并不一致。 So those are all 27,000 different churches, 'cause they're not in agreement when it comes to matters of doctrine.
这就是为什么我会说这个数字。 So that's why, that's why I'm okay using that figure.
我完全理解。 I totally get it.
我知道甚至有一些公教人士也不喜欢用这个数字来描述。 I, I know that there's even Catholics that don't like using that figure.
但如果你只看「不隶属宗派」的教会，纵使你把这些教会都视为一 个教会，虽然这并不正确，因为他们在教义上仍然不一致，对吗？ But if you just look up just the non-denominational churches, any- any- even if you were to lump all of the non-denominational churches together as one church, even though it's not true, 'cause they're not united in doctrine, right?
即便你把它们都算成同一个宗派，那现在新教就在原 有的基础上多了一个宗派，总共就两百零一个了。 Even if you were to say that's one denomination, the non-denominational churches are all one denomination, well, now you have 201 denominations in Protestantism.
好，你或许排除掉了几千个，但你还是有两百个。 So, okay, you, you've eliminated thousands, but you still have 200.
我们如何知道哪个才是正确的教会，或者哪个教会才 是正确落实「Sola Scriptura」的？ How do we know now which is the correct church, or which is the church that is correctly applying Sola Scriptura?
因为当你问…… Because when you ask...
我在去年夏天和新教里最顶尖的护教学者之一，詹姆斯·怀特博士，有过一场大辩论…… And I, I ha- I had a big debate back last summer last year with Dr. James White, who is one of the top Protestant apologists in...
他可以说是英语世界历史上最有名的护教学者之一。 ever, in the history of, like, the English-speaking world.
他大概是首屈一指的人物，对吧？ He's probably, he's the top guy, right?
在英语世界里。 In the English-speaking world.
我在交叉询问时就问过他这个问题。 And I asked him this question when I cross-examined him.
我说：「博士， I said, "Dr.
怀特，为什么新教内部会有这么多分裂？明明你们都使用同一 本圣经，而且都相信『Sola Scriptura』， White," I said, "why all of the divisions within Protestantism if you all have the same Bible and you all hold Sola Scriptura?
可你们为什么得出如此截然不同的结论呢？」你们知道他怎么回答吗？ Why have you all come to such radically different conclusions?" You know what he said?
他说：「那些得出截然不同结论的教会，是没有正确解读经文。他们并没有真正遵循 『Sola Scriptura』，是他们误解了经文。」你们看出问题了吗？ He said, "The churches that come to all of these radically different conclusions, they're not reading the scriptures correctly." "They're not using Sola Scriptura because they're misunderstanding the Scriptura." Do you guys see the problem here?
「Sola Scriptura」不可能是真的，尤 其不可能作为教义，甚至连作为认识论框架都有问题。 Sola Scriptura cannot be true, especially not as a doctrine, but even as an epistemological framework.
「Sola Scriptura」无法站得住脚，因为你需要有人来阐释圣经经文。 Sola Scriptura cannot be true, because you need somebody to interpret the Scriptura.
问题在于，你怎么知道这条街角的这个教会对经文，或者说对『Sola Scr iptura』的诠释是错的，而另一个地方的那个教会对经文的诠释是对的？ And the question always comes down to, how do you know that this church right here down the street, how do you know that their interpretation of Sola, of, of the Scriptura is wrong, but that this church over here down the way, that their interpretation of the sc- of the Scriptura is correct?
你怎么知道？ How do you know?
如果错的是你呢？ What if you're the one that's in error?
如果是这座教会错了而另一座教会对了呢？ What if this church is wrong and this church is right?
那你怎么判断？ How do you know?
如果是你自己，怀特博士，你曲解或者误用了经文，又该怎么办？ What if you are the one, Dr. White, that is misapplying or misreading or misunderstanding or misinterpreting the Scriptura?
你如何知道？ How do you know?
新教里之所以会有这么多宗派，是因为每一个教 会的牧师都成了他自己那间教会的「教宗」。 The reason there are so many denominations within Protestantism is because every pastor of every church is their own pope.
我知道，这…… And I know that it, it's...
我知道这对新教徒来说可能很刺耳。 I know it's offensive to Protestants.
所以给各位新教信徒，如果你们在听，我并无冒犯之意。 So my Protestant listeners, I don't mean any offense.
这只是，实事求是来讲，这是新教必须要面对的问题。 This is just, you know, really what, what, what Protestantism has to contend with.
如果你是新教徒，你所在的本地教会的牧师，能否让你的良心对他所说的都唯命是从？ Is th- is your pastor at your local church, if you're a Protestant, is he able to bind your conscience to whatever he says?
如果你去问一个新教普通信徒，不是牧师，也不是教会领袖，你问他： 「嘿，你本地教会的牧师是否能用他对经文的诠释来约束你的良心，让 你必须服从他的解释？」你知道多数人会怎么回答吗？你知道吗？ Well, if you ask a Protestant, right, just a layperson, not a pastor, not a, a, a, a leader in ministry, and you ask him and say, "Hey, your pastor at your local church, is he able to bind your conscience to his interpretation of scripture, and you have to obey his interpretation of scripture?" And you know what most of them will say?You know what?
你知道…… You know...
你们猜他们会说什么？ you guys know what they'll say?
他们会说：「不， They'll say, "No.
如果我不同意我的牧师，我可以离开他，再去找另一个牧师。 If I disagree with my pastor, I can just leave and find another pastor.
如果我不同意他，我就可以说他错了，然后去找另外一个更 符合我对经文理解的人。」你们知道查理·柯克是谁吧？ If I disagree with him, I can just say he's wrong and I can go find someone else who, who matches my understanding, my reading of scripture." You guys know who Charlie Kirk is, right?
查理·柯克就是这么说的。 Charlie Kirk said the exact same thing.
我有一段影片就是回应他的观点。 I have a video in which I respond to him.
他和迈克尔·诺尔斯在对话时确实这么说了。 He's having a conversation with Michael Knowles, and he literally said that.
他说：「如果我的牧师说了什么荒唐的话，我可以直接走开，再去 找另一个牧师。」这意味着，不仅每个牧师都成了他自己那座新教 教会的「教宗」，而且拿着圣经的每个人都成了自己的「教宗」。 He said, "If my pastor says something crazy, I can just leave him and go find another pastor." But what that means is that now, it's not, it's not just every pastor is the pope of his own local Protestant church, every individual person with a Bible is now their own pope.
他们可以随心所欲地去任何他们认为符合自己对圣经理解的教会。 And they can go to any church that they think is teaching what they think the Bible teaches.
你们看出「Sola Scriptura」在这里碰到的问题了吗？ You guys see the problem here with Sola Scriptura?
问题在于，你怎么知道究竟谁才对经文有真正、可靠且不出错的理解和诠释？ The question is, how do you know who has the true, definitive, inerrant understanding and interpretation of the Scriptura?
你怎么判断？ How do you know?
这里有一件事非常值得注意。 Because here's something that's really interesting.
经文在约翰福音十四章和十六章等处里说，圣灵要引导教会明白一切真理。 The Scriptura says, in places like John:14 and John:16, that the Holy Spirit will lead the church into all truth.
圣灵带领教会进入所有真理，这就是为什么提摩太前书 三章十五节再次说，教会是「真理的柱石和根基」。 The Holy Spirit leads the church into all truth, which is why 1 Timothy 3:15 once again says that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
所以，如果我们想知道谁对经文有正确的理解和诠释，你只需要去找 教会，因为教会能够告诉我们，哪些才是对经文的正确理解和阐释。 So if we want to know who has the correct interpretation and understanding of the scriptures, you just go to the church, because the church is able to tell us what the correct understanding and interpretations of the scriptures are.
不过，这里我们就和新教朋友出现分歧了。 But now, here's where we run into a problem with our Protestant friends.
问题是，哪一个教会？ The question is, what church?
到底是哪一个教会能够给出经文的真正含义，并确实拥有约束我们内心服从该解释的权威？ Which is the church that can give us the true meaning of scripture and actually has the authority to bind our, our hearts to this interpretation?
因为根据圣经，我们知道教会确实拥有这个权威。 Because we know according to the scriptures, the church has this authority.
那么，究竟是哪一间教会呢？ Which church?
所以我们又回到原点，因为我们要问：是…… So now, we're back to square one, 'cause now is it gonna be I...
我自己来选那个教会吗？ do I get to pick the church?
是不是随便我喜欢哪个就行？ Is it just whatever church I like?
当然不是。 No.
我们从经文知道，客观上只存在耶稣基督惟一的教会，正是这一个教会拥有权威。 We know from the scriptures that objectively there is one church of Jesus Christ, and that one church is the church that has the authority.
它一定就是最初把圣经传承给我们的那个教会。 It would have to be the same church that gave us the scriptures to begin with.
当你回顾历史，你会问：「嗯，到底是哪一个教 会把圣经传给了我们？」你可以上网搜一下。 And when you look back at history, and you ask the question, you say, "Well, which church gave us the scriptures?" You could Google it.
是公教会。 It was the Catholic Church.
所以，我们知道把圣经交给我们的教会，一定就是早于经文而存 在、由耶稣基督亲自建立并且拥有这种权威的那同一个教会。 So we know that the church that gave us the scriptures has to be that same church that predated the scriptures, that Jesus Christ founded and established, that has this authority.
在全世界所有的教会和团体当中，只有一个教会可以一路追溯到耶稣基督和使徒们的时代。 And of all the churches in the world, all the communities in the world, there is only one church that actually goes back to the time of Jesus Christ and his apostles.
那就是公教会。 It's the Catholic Church.
所以对新教徒而言，问题就在于：好，你们所使用的 正典，其实是公教会交给你们的，这无法否认吧。 So the question for the Protestant would be, okay, your canon of scripture was given to you by the Catholic Church, can't deny that.
一开始新教也使用这一正典，但后来他们实际上把其 中一些书卷拿掉了，这是另一个相当荒唐的事情。 They had it, and then later on down the line, they actually removed books from it, which is another crazy story in and of itself.
要不要我们简单说一下新教徒移除的那些书卷？ Should we get into that really quick, about the, the, the books that the Protestants removed?
好的。 Yeah.
实际上，从路德那个时代开始，新教版圣经和公教会的圣经是相同的。 So, Protestant Bibles actually matched Catholic Bibles even from the time of Luther.
几百年来，我们的圣经都是完全一样的，里头的书卷也相同。 For hundreds of years, we had the exact same bible, same books, everything.
直到公元一八二三年，才首次出现一本新教圣经把其中七卷书去掉了。 It wasn't until the year 1823 when the first Protestant bible was, was published without seven, seven books.
新教徒移除了那七卷书。 There were seven books that were removed by Protestants.
他们之所以移除那些特定的书卷，原因是当时印刷更薄的圣经成本更低。 And the reason that those certain books were removed was because it was cheaper to print skinnier bibles.
他们移除那七卷书的理由是…… And the reason they removed those seven books is because it was the...
那七卷书就是旧约的次经书卷，也就是所谓的「Deuterocanon」。 those seven books were the books of the Deuterocanon of the Old Testament.
「Deuterocanon」意思是「第二正典 」，代表这是后来所接受的第二批正典，对吧？ Deuterocanon means second canon, which is the second canon that was received, right?
就像希伯来传统所说的，这是一套后来编定的正典，对吗？ Like by, by, by the Hebrews, it was the second canon, right?
嗯，他们就把这些书移除了。马丁·路德在一五一九年的时候——虽然 他当祭司期间，以及在据说把《九十五条论纲》贴上德国教堂门后的那 段日子里（其实他并没这么做，那只是一种传说）——整段时间里， Um, and they just removed it because Martin Luther, in, in the year 1519, even though for his entire career, his time as a priest and even after he posted his, his 95 Theses on the, on the door of the cathedral in Germany, which didn't happen either, that's actually a myth, he didn't do that.
但是即使在他九…… Um, but even in his nin-...
即使在他一五一七年发布那九十五条后近三年的时间里，他其实仍在使用那七卷书。 even after he posted his 95 Theses in 1517, for three years he actually used those seven books.
他曾经引用这些书，视之为神圣经文，也就是神的话。 He quoted them and he cited them as sacred scripture, as divine scripture, as the word of God.
结果在一五一九年，他和约翰·艾克辩论时被对方辩驳得很厉害， And then in 1519, because he was getting his butt kicked in a debate with Johann Eck.
约翰·艾克援引了玛加伯下篇，路德就说：「你知道吗？ Johann Eck appealed to 2 Maccabees, and Martin Luther said, "You know what?
「呃，你不能在这场辩论中使用玛加伯下篇，因为我们不知道玛 加伯下篇是否是受神启示的。」马丁·路德是借助第四世纪教父 热罗尼莫（圣热罗尼莫）的观点，他当时也持有类似看法。 Uh, you can't use 2 Maccabees in this debate because we don't know if 2 Maccabees is inspired or not." And Martin Luther was appealing to a church father from the fourth century named Jerome, Jerome, St. Jerome, who actually had the same theory.
他曾认为那些…… He thought that those...
这些次经书卷，因为当时认为这些书并不是用希伯来文写的，甚至…… this Deuterocanon, because the Deuterocanon wasn't, um, written in Hebrew, even...
不过现在我们知道，他的这个看法其实有误。 and we now know that he was wrong actually.
我们现在知道，在那七卷次经中，有五卷最初确实是用希伯来文写成的。 Uh, we know that of the seven Deuterocanonical books, five of them were written in Hebrew originally.
只有两卷是用希腊文写的，那就是智慧篇和玛加伯下篇。 The only two that were not written in Hebrew that were written in Greek were Wisdom and 2 Maccabees.
而其余的几卷最初都是希伯来文写成的，连圣热罗尼莫自己都承认说，多比传和友 弟德传很可能是用希伯来文写的，因为他找到了希伯来文版本，但当时不确定。 Um, but we know that the other ones were originally written in Hebrew, and even St. Jerome, even, even St. Jerome himself tells us that Tobit and Judith probably were written in Hebrew, 'cause he was able to find Hebrew copies, but he wasn't sure.
所以呢，马…… So, uh, so Ma-...
马丁·路德在一千一百年后的十六世纪就说：「嘿，我们大概不该在 这个辩论里用次经，因为我们也许无法把次经用作教义，毕竟我们不 知道它是否受神启示。」马丁·路德在把圣经翻译成德文时…… so Martin Luther, you know, 1,100 years later in the 16th century said, "Hey, we probably shouldn't use the Deuterocanon, uh, in this debate because we probably can't, uh, use the Deuteroncanon for doctrine because we don't know if it's inspired or not." And what Martin Luther did when he translated his Bible into German...
另外，还有一个历史通俗误解是说马丁·路德是第一个把圣经翻译成德文的人。 And by the way, another big myth in history is that Martin Luther was the first one to translate the Bible into German.
其实不对。 That's not true.
在路德翻译圣经之前，公教会已经委托并出版了至少十七种德文版的圣经。 There were already at least 17 different German translations of the Bible commissioned by the Catholic Church before Luther ever did his....
七……至少十七种。 seven- at least 17.
大约十七、十八、或十九种，差不多就那个数。 It's, like, 17 or 18 or 19, something like that.
所以，不是的，公教会早就把圣经译成了德文。可是 马丁·路德在翻译时，把那七卷放进单独的附录里。 Um, so no, the, the Catholic Church had already, uh, had the Bible translated into German, but when Martin Luther did his translation into German, he took those seven books and he put them in their own separate appendix.
马丁·路德本人并没有把那些书完全移除出圣经。 Martin Luther did not remove those books from the Bible.
那些书在圣经里保留了将近三百年，直到一八二 三年才首次出现不包含这些书的新教版圣经。 Those books stayed in the Bible for 300 years, almost, until 1823 was the first time that a Protestant Bible was printed without it.
后来，最受新教徒推崇的中世纪时期译本、也就是钦定本 圣经，则是在十九世纪八十年代才将那七卷书移除了。 And then eventually, the King James Bible, which is the most popular translation of the medieval times for Protestants, it was in the 1880s when those seven books were removed from the King James Bible.
不过，如果你拿到一六一一年版本的最初钦定本，你猜里面包含什么？ But if you get an original King James Bible, like from 1611, guess what it includes?
它也包含那些次经书。 It includes those, the seven deuterocanonical books.
它还有一个列有各种圣者庆日的日历。 It also includes a calendar of all of the saints' feast days.
因为当时的新教，仍旧承认诸圣相通这件事。 Because Protestantism, you know, even back then, they still held to the communion of the saints.
而在今天的圣公会中，他们依然相信圣徒相通，也依然庆祝圣徒庆日。 And the Anglicans, to this day, they hold to the communion of the saints, and they celebrate the saints' feast days.
不过总之，「Sola Scriptura」本身就有很多问题。 But anyway, so sola scriptura, so many problems with it.
你没法把它称作教义，因为它会自相矛盾。 Can't- you can't call it a doctrine, 'cause it defeats itself.
如果它是个教义，或者你把它称作一种认识论框架，那么首先你得解释 或证明，这个认识论框架要比耶稣基督所建立的教会框架更好才行。 If it's a doctrine, if you call it an epistemological framework, first you have to- first you have to explain or prove that this epistemological framework is a better framework than the framework of the Church that Jesus Christ founded.
而且即使你能证明它在某种意义上更好——但事实上你做不到，因为它导致 了无数个新教宗派——你也没法让任何人的良心必须服从这种认识论框架。 And even if you're able to prove that it's somehow a better framework, which you can't do, because it's led to thousands and thousands of denominations, um, you, uh, you can't bind anyone's conscience to holding this epistemological framework.
这就是所有的问题所在。 So here's all of these problems.
而且，如果你相信「Sola Scriptura」，你根本没法确定经文 真正的含义是什么，哪种解释才是正确的。把「Sola Scriptur a」当作信条就像说美国宪法可以自行解释，因此我们不需要最高法院一样。 And with sola scriptura, you actually can't know, you can't know what the scripture was actually- what it actually means, what the true, correct meaning of it- You know, holding the sola scriptura is like saying that the Constitution of the United States can interpret itself, so we don't need a Supreme Court.
我们不需要……我们可以无视最高法院，因为你看，我知道 宪法究竟说了什么，所以完全可以忽略最高法院的裁定。 We don't need a- we don't need a Fa- we, we can ignore the Supreme Court, because, you know, I know what the Constitution really says, and I can ignore the rulings of the Supreme Court.
其实这个比喻都不算恰当，因为我们知道最高法院也会犯错。 And, and that- that's not even a good analogy, 'cause we know the Supreme Court can get things wrong.
最高法院也常常有出错的例子。 The Supreme Court has gotten things wrong a lot.
最高法院绝非不会出错。 The Supreme Court is- the Supreme Court is by no means infallible.
但美国开国者明白，光有书面文件是不够的。 But the Fo- the founding fathers knew that you can't have a written document by itself.
你需要有一个活生生的机构，能够去诠释并且执行它。 You need to have a living organism that is able to interpret it and apply it.
这就是为什么我们要有最高法院的原因。 And that's why we have the Supreme Court.
如果我们没有最高法院，那么宪法就会像「Sola Sc riptura」一样，陷入一种认识论上的混乱当中。 If we didn't have the Supreme Court, the Constitution, it would lead to, like sola scriptura has, epistemological chaos.
所以，「Sola Scriptura」行不通，尤其是你想到在最 早的十四世纪以前，从来没有人相信过这种说法，甚至没人听说过。 So sola scriptura doesn't work, especially when you consider that nobody believed in it, nobody ever believed in it or even heard of such a belief until the, the 14th century at the earliest.
很多新教徒会试图说早期教父们也相信「Sola Scriptura」。 And what a lot of Protestants try to do is they'll try and say that the early Church fathers, that they believed in sola scriptura.
但这说法并不成立。 That doesn't work.
因为他们能列举出来的每一位教父，其实都无法支 持这种说法。通常他们会搬出圣奥古斯丁来说事。 Because every single Church father that they could possibly maybe try and appeal to, usually they try to do it with Saint Augustine.
你只要去读一下他其他的著作，看看圣奥古斯丁多少次提到教会的权威。 All you gotta do is look at his other writings and see all of the times that Saint Augustine talked about the authority of the Church.
圣奥古斯丁说过：「我之所以知道那些福音书确实是神的话 ，唯一的理由是公教会告诉我如此。」他真的那么讲过。 Saint Augustine said, "The only reason I, I, I know that the, uh- that the Gospels are truly the word of God is 'cause the Catholic Church told me so." Saint Augustine literally said that.
这算是「Sola Scriptura」吗？ Is that sola scriptura?
不算。 No.
所以并不成立。 So no, it doesn't work.
它行不通。 It can't work.
只会导致混乱。 It leads to chaos.
会引发分裂。 It leads to division.
而且呢，我们这堂课本来不打算去批评新教的，但兄弟，你提起这个话题了。 And, um, and this lesson wasn't even supposed to be a critique of Protestantism, but you brought it up, brother.
哎。 Dang.
你既然提了，我就顺势讲一下为什么它行不通了。 You brought it up, and now I just kind of gave a little presentation as to why it doesn't work.
我们本来是要谈他们对我们的反对意见。 We were supposed to actually talk about objections that they have for us.
也许有人会针对这个话题做个回应视频。 Maybe someone will make a response video to this video.
我相信很可能会有人这么做，我会作出回应的。 I'm sure s- I'm sure somebody will, and I'll respond to them.
好了，还有什么……还有什么问题吗？ Anyway, any o- any questions?
有问题吗？ Any questions?
我们要不要谈谈他们可能会向我们提出的反对意见呢？ Should we get into, like, objections that maybe they have for us?
因为他们大体上的反对，通常会说：「噢，公教并不符合圣经。」首先，这不是真的。 Because the general objections, what Pro- what Protestants will say is, they'll say, "Oh, Catholicism isn't biblical." First of all, that's not true.
公教会所相信的每一项信条、每一个教义，其实都可以从圣经本身找到佐证。 Every single Catholic belief, every single Catholic doctrine can actually be proved from scripture alone.
这就是一种讽刺。 That's irony.
讽刺在于，公教徒并不坚持「Sola Scrip tura」，却能用经文本身证明我们所信的一切。 That's the ironic part, is that, you know, Catholics, we don't hold to sola scriptura, yet we can prove everything that we believe from scripture alone.
这真得很有意思。 That's kind of ironic.
可我们确实做得到。 But we can.
而更具讽刺意味的是，那些坚持「Sola Script ura」的人，却无法用经文来证明他们新教独有的教义。 And th- the ironic thing is that the group that, that holds to sola scriptura, they cannot prove their unique Protestant beliefs from the scriptura.
他们没法证明「Sola Scriptura」。 They can't prove sola scriptura.
他们没法证明「唯独信心」，就是光靠信心得救的那个观念。 They can't prove, uh, Sola Fide, which is the, the, the belief of, uh, salvation by faith alone.
他们也无法证明所谓的「永保安全」——一旦得救就不会失落救恩的看法。 They can't prove eternal security, which is the belief that once saved, always saved, you can never lose your salvation.
这些都无法从圣经里得到证明。 They can't prove any of those things from scripture.
于是更讽刺的是，新教徒在「是否相信永保安全」或者「加尔文主义是否正确」还是「亚 米纽主义才对」等问题上，自己都跟着一分为二，还有很多他们彼此都不同意的事情。 And then the iron- the irony is that, like, you know, Protestants are kind of split in half about whether they hold eternal security or not, or if Calvinism is true or Arminianism is true, or, you know, there's a lot of things that they don't agree upon.
但先让我们专注在他们对我们的反对意见。 But let's just focus on the objections that they make against us.
他们会说公教不符合圣经，然而他们本身就得先 假设「圣经包含哪些书」才能做出这些指控。 So they'll say that Catholicism is not biblical, even though they're assuming what the Bible is in order to make their, their, their claims.
我们只要说：「不，事实上公教是符合圣经的。」并且你可以逐字去核对。 But we can just say, "Nope, actually, it is biblical," and you can actually go through it.
你可以用经文来证明一切。 You can prove everything from the scriptures.
所有的教义都能透过圣经加以说明。 Everything can be proven from the scriptures.
如果对方依旧不同意，如果我身为公教徒，翻阅圣经 经文并指出它们在哪里，然后你猜他们会说什么？ And if there's a disagreement, if, if I as a Catholic go and I go through the pages of the Bible and I show them where everything is found in the Bible, you know what they're gonna say?
他们会说：「你在曲解——你在错误地解释圣经。」或者说：「你在滥用经文， They're gonna say, "You're interpreting- you're, you're interpreting the Bible the wrong way." They're gonna say, "You're, you're, you're, you're abusing the scriptures.
你并不明白经文意义。」然后我就会回应：「太好了，你提到这点正 好。我们怎么知道谁对经文有正确的理解呢？这就回到他们没法回答 的问题，特别当他们坚持『Sola Scriptura』时。 You're, you're, you don't understand the scriptures." And I'll say, "Perfect, I'm so glad you brought that up." How do we know who has the correct understanding of scripture?And that goes back to the question that they can't answer, especially if they're holding full scriptura.
他们没法回答，因为我可以问：「你能不能指给我看？ They can't answer that question 'cause I can say, "Can you point me?
你能指给我某个地方、某个来源、也许是某个活生生的机构，能…… Can you, can you point me to a, a, a, a place, a source, a living organism, maybe, that could...
告诉我，如果我哪儿错了，就能指出来吗？」我可以告 诉那位新教徒：哥们，其实我已经比你领先两步了。 is able to tell me that I'm wrong, if I'm wrong about anything?" And I could tell the Protestant, I'm actually just two steps ahead of you, bud.
你猜怎样？ Guess what?
我告诉你的这些都不是我个人的想法。 Everything that I'm telling you, it's not me.
我没凭空捏造。 I didn't make this stuff up.
我怎么看经文其实没什么意义。 Who cares what I think about what scripture says?
我只是在告诉你耶稣基督的教会所教导的内容，因为根据这些经文，耶稣基督的教 会有权告诉我们这部书、这些经文真正的含义是什么——是他们编订了这本圣经。 I'm just telling you what the Church of Jesus Christ teaches, because according to these scriptures, the Church of Jesus Christ has the authority to tell us what this book, these scriptures actually mean, 'cause they put it together.
他们将其列入正典。 They canonized it.
他们将这些经卷汇编传承，一代又一代地传了下来。 They put it together, and they handed it down from generation to generation.
他们真正把它们记录下来。 They actually wrote it down.
他们抄录，经年累月地抄写。 They record- they, they made copies.
是公教会的修士们在执笔…… It was the Catholic monks that were writing this...
他们抄写经文，保存传承下来，并将其确立为正典。 you know, that were copying the scriptures and preserved them and handed them down and canonized them.
我们之所以会有圣经，唯一的原因就是公教会的存在。 And the only reason we have the Bible is because of the Catholic Church.
所以我并不是在说我个人的见解。 So I'm not giving you my opinion.
我只是告诉你我的主的教会怎么说，因为我对经文的看法一点也不重要。 I'm just telling you what my Lord's church says, 'cause who cares what I think about the scriptures?
有什么关系呢？ Who cares?
你们任何一个人，如果我们每个人都拿着一本圣经，一页页翻，然后我们就…… Every single last one of you, if we all had a Bible in front of us and we're all flipping through and we're just, just...
最后完全会变成各人怎么理解就怎么说，我们都…… it just comes down to what we think it means, we're every single last...
我们每个人…… we're all...
没有任何两个人的诠释会完全一样。 not a single one of us will match an interpretation.
每个人都会有不同的看法。 We'll all have different beliefs.
感谢神在世间赐下一座教会，可让我们辨明什么是真，什么不是。 Thank God that He gave us a church to tell us what is true and what isn't.
这就是第一个反对意见。 So that's the first objection.
他们会说，哎呀，公教并不符合圣经。 They'll say, oh, Catholicism isn't, isn't biblical.
我们很容易证明他们错了。 We can easily prove them wrong.
如果他们不同意我们的解释，我们就能指出其实他们也没拿出任何 更好的选择，因为他们甚至无法告诉你哪一种才是正确的解读。 And then if they don't agree with our interpretation, then we can just show that they're not offering anything better, because they can't even tell you what, what the true interpretation is.
是因为你不喜欢这个解释吗？ Is it just the interpretation that you don't like?
你不喜欢我的解释，所以就觉得它是错的吗？ You don't like my interpretation, so that's why it's false?
如果真错的是你呢？ What if you're the one that's wrong?
如果其实你的解释才是不对呢？ What if you're the one with the incorrect interpretation?
你看，这样根本无法让我们走向任何结论。 See, it doesn't get us anywhere.
还有什么吗？ What else?
请说。 Go ahead.
我能提个新的质疑吗？ Can I make like a new objection?
可以，当然可以。 Yeah, yes, yes.
比如说，为什么坚持「圣母马利亚一生童贞」这个教义如此重要？ Like, why is it important to hold, um, the dogma that Mary was a perpetual virgin?
为什么一定要这么看重？ Like, why is that important?
发言者1：对。 Speaker 1: Yeah.
好的。 Sure.
那么，一条教义…… So a dogma...
我以前也在你们面前提过：教义就是任何神向人类启示的真理。 and I know I've said this before here in front of this group, a dogma is anything that is revealed by God to mankind.
凡是神亲自启示下来的真理，我们都必须接受。 Any truth that is divinely revealed needs to be held.
我们有责任相信每一条…… We have the obligation to believe in every...
任何神亲自向世人公开启示的教义，因为神想要我们明白，所以我们就有义务去相信它。 any and every dogma, because if God went out of His way to reveal it to mankind publicly, it means that He wants you to know it.
而如果马利亚一生保持童贞这件事是神亲自启示的，你却选择拒绝，那么你 就是错的，因为你等于拒绝了神所启示的真理，也就是我们所说的教义。 And if the perpetual virginity of Mary is one of the things that God divinely revealed, and you choose to reject it, now you're in error, because you are rejecting a divinely-revealed truth, which is what we call a dogma.
你不能这么做，因为如果你拒绝了神…… And you can't do that, 'cause if you reject what something Got-...
神启示给你一些事，是祂希望你知道，这意味着你拒绝的话就直接在抗拒神。 what something that God revealed to you and because He wa- He wanted to reveal it to you, it means He wants you to know it.
如果你明知如此还去拒绝，那实际上就是在拒绝神本身。 If you actually knowingly reject that, what you're doing is you're rejecting God.
所以，马利亚的永远童贞，或者其他任何教义，像基督的神性…… So the reason that the perpetual virginity of Mary or any dogma, the divinity...
三位一体、基督的神性，呃，还有…… the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, uh, you know, uh, the...
像基督的救赎与复活、升天、圣灵降临、各项圣事、以及圣经本身，如果你 拒绝其中任何一项，都形同拒绝神，因为神正是借着这些来启示祂自己。 you know, the- the Christ atonement and His resurrection, you know, the ascension into Heaven, the descent of the Holy Spirit, uh, the sacraments, uh, everything, the scriptures themselves, if you reject anything, you are rejecting God, 'cause He reveals Himself in these things.
因此，你不能拒绝任何一条教义。 So that's why you can't reject even a single dogma.
只要你…… If you only...
你只要拒绝其中任何一条，就已经处在危机当中了。 if you reject even just one, you are in danger.
嗯，你…… Uh, you are...
你是在冒灵魂的险，因为你拒绝了神告诉你的事情。 you're putting your soul on the line, 'cause you're rejecting something that God has told you.
就好比你父母告诉你一件事，而你却说他们在撒谎。 It would be like if your parent told you something and you called him or her a liar.
你指责你的父母是骗子。 You call your parent a liar.
你父母说了某件…… Your parent says something about...
比如，你的父亲对你说了什么，然后你说：「爸，我不相信你， you know, your, your dad says something to you about Him, and you say, "I don't believe you, Dad.
你是在撒谎。 You're a liar.
我就当没听见。」这就等于不尊重你的父亲了。 I'm just gonna ignore that thing that you told me." That would be dishonoring your- your father.
同理，当我们拒绝了神向我们启示的事，就是在不尊重我们在天的父。 Well, we dishonor our Heavenly Father when we reject the things that He reveals to us.
既然神已经亲自向我们启示了，我们就该知道自己不能拒绝它。 And just by the, by the virtue of the fact that He revealed it to us, that alone, that's all we need to know that we can't reject it.
这就是我们必须明白的一点。 That's all we need to know.
我们不能拒绝它。 We can't reject it.
特别是关于马利亚的永远童贞，这是神所启示的真理。神让马利亚持续童贞，是因为她身 为弥赛亚的母亲，神的母亲，我们主耶稣基督的母亲，这个身份决定了她所扮演的角色。 In particular, about the perpetual virginity of Mary, uh, the reason that that is a divinely-revealed truth, and the reason that God kept Mary a perpetual virgin is because of the role that she plays as the mother of the Messiah, as the mother of God, as the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.
她的职分就像新约的约柜，对吗？ Um, the role that she plays as the Ark of the New Covenant, right?
之所以永远童贞的意义很重大，首先在于耶稣是由童贞女所生的。 The reason that the perpetual virginity, uh, uh, matters is because, first of all, Jesus was born of a virgin.
我……如果…… I- if...
想想耶稣是由童贞女所生。 so imagine Jesus is born of a virgin.
那么…… W- it...
对这点，新教徒和我们都一致认同。 so Protestants, w- we're all in agreement.
新教徒和公教徒都同意，嗯…… Protestants and Catholics are all in agreement that, um...
新教和公教都同意这个…… Protestants and Catholics are all in agreement that, uh, the...
也就是说童贞女怀孕这点是一条教义，对吧？ that the, uh, virgin birth is a, is a dogma, right?
新教徒也会告诉你，不能拒绝童贞女所生这事。 A Protestant will tell you, you cannot reject the virgin birth.
因为这是已经启示给人的真理。 Like, that is something that is revealed.
你没法否认，对吗？ You can't reject it, right?
好的。 Okay.
关于马利亚的终身童贞，想象一下，如果耶稣出生后，马利亚又开始生其他孩子。 Well, when it comes to the perpetual virginity of Mary, imagine if, um, you know, Jesus is born and then Mary just starts having other kids, starts having other children.
再想想如果你当时就在那里，对吧？ And imagine if you're there, right?
你在耶稣那个时代，大家都说:「噢，耶稣是奇迹般地由童贞女所生 的。」可你却看到他还有很多马利亚所生的兄弟姊妹，那么就会…… You're, you're there in the time of Jesus, and, you know, everyone is saying, "Oh, Jesus was born miraculously of, of a virgin." But then you see that he has all of these other siblings that are children of Mary, and then that'll...
这就会很容易让人怀疑。 kind of might cast doubt into question.
会想：「嘿，你确定吗？ Be like, "Hey, are you sure?
你确定吗，你可还有这么多别的孩子。 Like, are you sure that, like, you have all these other kids.
那我们干嘛得相信你没有…… Like, why should we believe that you don't...
你知道，这…… you know, that this...
这个，这…… that this, this...
你儿子耶稣，他…… your son, Jesus, that he...
他是奇迹般降生，你也是…… that he was born miraculously, that you're...
一位童贞女呢？」而她长期保持童贞，正是因为她在…… a virgin?" And she remains a virgin because of her role, the role in, in the...
在神的救赎计划里，她是新约的约柜、是无玷的约柜。 马利亚因承载了我们的主在她腹中而被奉献，对吧？ in God's plan of salvation as the Ark of the New Covenant, the Undefiled Ark, uh, because Mary was consecrated, uh, by having our Lord in her womb, right?
她被分别为圣，被拣选出来。 She was set aside, set apart.
她被特别地拣选来承担独特的使命…… She was set apart for something unique....
这使命使得她绝不可能再用作其他任何目的。 that can never, ever, ever be used for anything else again.
就像新约的约柜一样，对吧？ So like the Ark of the New Covenant, right?
在那约柜里，除了神的道、摩西的法版、祭司的杖，还 有天上降下的吗哪，就不可能放其他任何东西，对吧？ Nothing could ever be placed inside the ark that wasn't, you know, the, the, the Word of God, you know, the, the, Moses' tablets, the staff of the priesthood, and the, um, and the manna from heaven, right?
绝对不能再放别的进去。 Nothing could ever, ever, ever, ever again be put inside of it.
那么，如果我们可敬的圣母在她的腹中孕育了我们的主共九个月，那就再也不可能有 什么置于其中，因为这位女子已被圣化、被分别出来，为承载我们的主——弥赛亚。 Well, if our Blessed Mother had Our Lord in her womb, you know, for nine months, nothing could ever be put inside of that, because that woman is sanctified and set apart for carrying Our Lord, the Messiah.
这是经文中启示给我们的道理，你不能拒绝。 And that's something that is revealed in the Scriptures, and that's why you can't reject it.
你没法否认，对吧？ You can't deny it, right?
不然就像是在说：「噢，神只利用了马利亚九个月，等九个月一过、耶稣出生了，神就 说『好啦，你随意吧』」，不是这样的。因为马利亚在我们的救恩里扮演着她的角色。 Because then you wanna say that, "Oh, God just used Mary and used her for nine months, and then after the nine months were up and Jesus was born, then God said, 'May I do whatever you want?' You know, and you can..." No, because Mary actually plays a role in our salvation.
这是新教徒不喜欢听的，但事实就是如此。 And that's another thing that Protestants don't like to hear, but it's just the truth.
只要好好去看看福音里马利亚所扮演的角色就知道了。 Just read, read Mary's role in the Scriptures, in the Gospel.
你要结合旧约中那位母后（王之母）的地位理解经文，她一直都是君王的母亲，对吧？ You know, read it in light of the role of the queen mother of the Old Testament, who was always the mother of the king, right?
而耶稣是我们的新君王。 And Jesus being our new king.
所以你不能拒绝它——既然神已经启示了，就不能拒绝任何启示给我们的真理。 Um, so that's why you can't reject it, just because if, if it's revealed, you can't reject anything that's revealed.
还有其他问题或反对吗？ Any other questions or objections?
那边的朋友有什么想问的？ What's up, man?
关于教宗不会错误的教义，如果有人想从圣经角度理解，你会怎么回答？ How would you respond to a Biblical understanding of the infallibility of the Pope?
如果有人要我用圣经来论证教宗不会错误，我会怎么说？ How would I respond to a Biblical understanding of the infallibility of the Pope?
我会说：「对，确实有圣经依据。」你是说，如果有人要 挑战我，要求我拿出圣经里的根据，我会如何回应吗？ I would say, "Yep, it's Biblical." So do you mean how, how would I respond to someone, like challenging me to like make a Biblical case for it?
对。 Yeah.
好的。 Sure.
我其实稍早有谈到一点，不过你当时可能还没进来听。 I, I, I did talk about that a little bit earlier where I think you hadn't come inside yet.
总之，你知道，新教徒都熟悉我们常引用的那节著名经文。 So basically, um, y- you know, and all Protestants, they know the, the famous verse that we always go to.
如果看马太福音第十六章，耶稣在那儿对彼得说 ，也就是对名叫西门的人说，当时他还叫西门。 If you go to Matthew 16, in Matthew 16 is where Jesus tells, uh, Peter, uh, Simon, his name was Simon, so he called him Simon.
耶稣把他的名字改成彼得，而「彼得」这个词实际意味着磐石。 He changes his name to Peter, and the word Peter actually means rock.
耶稣说：「我要把我的教会建造在这磐石上」，对吧？ And he says, "On this rock, I will build my church," right?
关于「彼得就是磐石」这点，新教徒确实也有提出反对意见，如果你想我们可以谈谈。 And there's objections that Protestants actually make about Peter being the rock, and we can address those if you'd like.
但耶稣说：「你是那磐石。 But he says, "You're the rock.
我要在这磐石上建造我的教会。」然后在路加福音 二十二章的最后晚餐场景里，耶稣只为彼得祈祷。 On this rock, I'll build my church." And then in Luke 22 at the Last Supper, Jesus prays only for Peter.
他单独为彼得祈祷。 He prays for Peter alone.
他祈求彼得的信心不至失落，对吗？ He prays that his faith will not fail, right?
所以在路加福音二十二章里，耶稣跟使徒们说：「撒但想要筛你们 像筛麦子一样。」也就是说，撒但想摧毁教会，把使徒们分散。 So it's in, in Luke 22 when, uh, when Jesus tells them, He tells the apostles, He says, "Satan has demanded to sift you all like wheat," meaning Satan wants to scatter the apostles, 'cause he wants to destroy the church.
他要把使徒赶得四分五裂。 He wants to scatter the apostles.
在原文希腊文里，耶稣说的「筛你们像麦子」那个「你们」是复数形式。 In the Greek, when Jesus says, "To sift you all like wheat," the Greek word for you is plural.
但接着耶稣转向彼得说：「我已为你祈求」，在这里那个「你」是单数。 But then, He turns to Peter and He says, "But I have prayed for your faith," and your is singular.
也就是说，耶稣只专门对彼得说：「我已为你祈求，叫你不至于失了信心； 你回头之后，要坚固你的弟兄。」这表示彼得对其他十一位有带领责任。 So He's addressing only Peter, and he says, "I have prayed that your faith will not fail, and when you have returned, you strengthen your brethren." So he is putting Peter in charge of the other, uh, uh, of the other eleven.
彼得是十二使徒之首。 Peter is the head of The Twelve.
然后在约翰福音二十一章里，也就是我们主复活后的那一 幕，约翰福音的最后一章，那里耶稣向全体使徒显现。 And then, in John 21, this is after the resurrection of Our Lord, the final chapter of the Gospel according to Saint John, um, when Jesus appears to the apostles, He appears to all of the apostles.
耶稣问彼得：「你比这些人更爱我吗？」彼得回答「是」，耶稣又问了两 次，彼得都说「是」。每次彼得回答后，耶稣都说：「你要牧养我的羊、 牧养我的小羊、牧养我的羊群。」也就是让彼得来牧养整个教会的群羊。 And He asks Peter, He says, "Peter, do you love me more than these guys love me?" And he says, "Yes." And He asks him two more times, and P- Peter says, "Yes." And every time that Peter says, "Yes," Jesus says, "Feed my sheep, tend my lambs, feed my sheep." He makes Peter the pastor of the entire flock, of the universal church.
使徒圣彼得是整个教会的牧者，这点在《使徒行传》中就能看出。 Saint Peter the Apostle was the pastor of the entire church, and y- that's actually demonstrated in the Book of Acts.
你去读使徒行传前半部分，从第一章到第十五章， 都是围绕彼得展开，也展现了他对全教会的权威。 Read the first half of the Book of Acts, from chapter one to chapter 15, it's all about Peter, and it's all about the authority that he had over the entirety of the church.
彼得清楚地处于教会领袖的位置，即使是新教学者如J.N.D. Peter was clearly, clearly the head of the church, and even Protestant scholars, like J.N.D.
凯利——他是历史上非常著名的新教学者之一——对，J.N.D. Kelly, who was one of the most famous Protestant scholars in history, uh, J.N.D.
凯利也承认，彼得在初代教会确实拥有首席地位，凌驾于其他使徒之上。 Kelly admits, yes, Peter had primacy in the early church, even over the other apostles.
彼得是其他使徒的头。 Peter was the head of the other apostles.
而且实际上有不少新教学者也承认这一点，对吧？ And there are many Protestant scholars that actually concede that, they admit that, right?
那么由此看来，耶稣基督确实在彼得身上赐予了特殊的权威，让他成为其他使徒之首。 Um, so now, we know that Jesus Christ divinely established a special authority on one person, who was Peter, who was the head of the others.
我们也知道，根据经文，所有使徒都有各自的继任者，而继任者是通过按手礼而确立的。 And we know, according to the Scriptures, that all of the apostles had successors, and that those successors were made successors through the laying on of hands.
使徒会为人按手，委任他们去牧职或成为祭司、执事， 这些被按立的教会事工人员就是使徒的继承人，对吗？ So the apostles would lay their hands on men, ordain them to the ministry, ordain them to the priesthood, to the diaconate, and then they would be the ordained ministers of the church, and those are the successors of the apostles, right?
好了，问题来了。 Well, here's the thing.
所有使徒都是真正的使徒，也就是说他们直接从神那里接受启示。 All of the apostles were apostles, meaning that they received divine revelation directly from God.
但是即使这十二个人（如果把保罗也算进去是十三人）都直接从神 那里得到启示，这些人之中也尚且需要一位领导者，那就是彼得。 But even amongst the 12 guys, or 13 if you count Paul, that they received divine revelation from God, even those guys needed a head, and it was Peter.
而所有的使徒继任者当中，没有谁是还在接受神直接启示的。 All of these successors of the apostles, none of them received divine revelation.
公共启示已经完成并结束了，对吧？ Public revelation is, is, is, is done and over with, right?
因为信仰已经一次性地启示给所有圣徒了。 Because the faith was revealed for all, you know, once and for all to all of the saints.
所以再没有人会接受到神直接给众人的启示，也就是公共启示了。 So no one is receiving divine revelation anymore, not public revelation.
那么，如果连那些亲自从神领受启示的使徒都需要有首 领，那么使徒的继承人就更需要一个领袖来带领了。 So the successors of the apostles, how much more so would they need a head if even the guys that were receiving revelation from God, if they needed a head?
所以，如果十二或十三位使徒都需要一个人作为大家之首，那么他们 所有的继任者、所有的主教，也同样需要一个人来带领和统辖他们。 So if the 12, 12, 13 apostles needed one guy to be the leader of them all, then all of their successors, all of the bishops, they need one guy to be the head and the leader of them all.
这个人，就是彼得使徒的直接继承者。 And that's the one who is the direct successor of the Apostle Peter.
彼得去世时，他所拥有的全部权柄就传给了一个叫李纳的人，李纳再传给克莱 特，克莱特再传给克肋孟，然后是埃瓦里斯托、亚历山大、西斯笃等等，一路 传到今天的教宗——现任罗马主教，他就是彼得使徒的唯一正统继承者。 When Peter died and discharged the fullness of his, of his authority, he did so on a guy called Linus, and then Linus, uh, did that to Cletus, and then, uh, Cletus to Clement, and then Evaristus, Alexander and Sixtus, and all of these other guys, down to the present day, to the present pope, to the present bishop of Rome, the unique successor of Peter the Apostle.
这就是我们确认耶稣基督教会的方式。 And that's how we identify the Church of Jesus Christ.
根据那块磐石，也就是彼得，你去寻找现在的彼得在哪里？我们要 问：「现代的彼得在哪？」也就是找到彼得的正宗继承人在哪。 You identify it by the rock, who is Peter, and you find, where is Peter today?And we ask the question, "Where is Peter today?" It's, where is his unique successor?
答案就是在罗马的主教。 And it's in the bishop of Rome.
而且他的信心，像路加福音二十二章里彼得的信心一样，被圣灵保持着不 会错误，因为约翰福音十四章和十六章说，圣灵带领教会进入一切真理。 And his faith, like Peter's faith in Luke 22, is protected from ever falling into error by the Holy Spirit, because John 14 and John 16 say that the Holy Spirit leads the Church into all truth.
如果他是普世的牧人，如果彼得及其继任者是教会的普世牧者，那就意味着圣 灵会保护这人，使他在信仰和道德问题上，不会向普世教会传递错误教导。 And if he's the universal pastor, if Peter and his successors are the universal pastors of the Church, that means that the Holy Spirit is going to protect whoever that guy is from ever teaching error to the universal Church, in matters of faith, which is matters of belief and morals.
所以这在圣经和历史上都是百分之百有根据的，因为初期的基督徒都这样谈论 彼得的权柄，以及他的权柄如何透过在罗马教会中的历代继承者传承下来的。 So it's 100% biblical and historical as well, because this is what all the early Christians said about the au- pe- the authority of Peter, and that authority being passed down from Peter through his successors in the Church of Rome.
好的，希望这样能回答你的问题。 Very g- I hope that answered your question.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
还有别的问题吗？ Any other questions?
嗯，如果我应该只向耶稣祈祷，为什么还要向圣人祈求代祷呢？ Um, why pray to saints if I should only pray to Jesus?
如果我只能向耶稣祈祷，为什么要求圣人代祷？ Why pray to saints if I should only pray to Jesus?
好的。 Okay.
我们自然都向耶稣祈祷，对不对？ So we all pray to Jesus, right?
你们有多少人会彼此代祷？ How many of you guys pray for each other?
或者你们会请求其他人替你们祈祷吗？ Or how many of you guys ask people for prayers?
好。 Okay.
为什么呢？ Why?
如果你可以直接向耶稣祈祷， If you can just pray to Jesus?
这当然没错，我也同意，你可以直接向耶稣祈祷。 If you can just pray directly to Jesus, which is true, I, I actually agree.
是的，你可以直接祈求耶稣。 Yeah, you can pray directly to Jesus.
那既然我可以直接祷告耶稣，我何必需要你们任何人在？ So since I can pray directly to Jesus, what do I need any of you for?
为什么我还要请求你为我祈祷？ Why do I need to ask you to pray for me?
为什么…… What...
为的是什么？ For, for what?
我自己可以直接去到神面前，为何还要你帮我祈祷，对吗？ I can just go to God myself, so why do I need you to pray for me, right?
这正是那些否认圣人代祷的新教徒所说的逻辑。 That, that is what Protestants who deny the intercession of the saints, that's what they're saying.
他们说：「我们不需要找任何其他人， They're saying, "We don't need to go to anybody else.
我们都能自己直接去找耶稣。 We can all go to, directly to Jesus ourselves.
我们不需要彼此代求。」我知道他们会反驳，说：「我们才没这么说。」 但我就会说：「我知道你们表面上不这么说，但你们其实没有意识到，你 们的立场推到逻辑极端，却正是这么个意思。」这就正好是你们对圣人代 祷的反对逻辑最终会演变成的结果，尤其是考虑到，你猜怎么样？ We don't need to pray for each other." And I know that they would object, and they will say, "That's not what we're saying." I was like, "I know that that's not what you mean, but you don't realize that that's actually what you're saying." That is the, the logical conclusion to your objection to the intercession of the saints, especially because, guess what?
圣经在《启示录》五章八节和八章三节告诉我们，圣人在天上为我们代祷。 The Bible tells us that the saints intercede for us in Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3.
那里提到在天上的天使和众圣，将我们的祈祷呈到神的宝座前。 It mentions the angels and the saints in heaven presenting our prayers before the throne of God.
所以经文很清楚地说，天使和圣人会为我们代祷，他们甚至会把我们的祈求带到神面前。 So the Bible explicitly says that the angels and the saints pray for us, that they even present, take our prayers that we're praying, they take those prayers and they present them to God.
甚至最优秀的新教护教学者也会说：「对，天上 的天使和圣人在确实为我们祈祷，确实会的。 And the very best of Protestant apologists, the very best Protestant apologists, they say, "Yeah, the angels and the saints in heaven, they do pray for us, they do pray for us.
圣经告诉我们他们把我们的祈祷呈给神，但这并不表示我们可以、或有能力去请求他们。 The Bible tells us that they present our prayers before God, but that doesn't mean that we can, we're able to ask them.
他们自己会去做这件事。 They just do it by themselves.
你不用请求他们做，只要让他们去做就行。 You don't need to ask them to do that, just let them, just let them do it.
他们心里明白。 They know.
他们知道。 They know.
你不用开口求他们。」那我就说：「你说无需开口求他们吗？」因为如果 你说我们不必也不用请求他们任何事情，那你就违反了保罗在哥林多前书 第十二章的教导。保罗在哥林多前书十二章里说，在教会里，每个人都是 基督身体的一部分，一个肢体不能对另一个肢体说「我不需要你」。 You don't need to ask them." You say, "Y- you don't need to ask them?" Because if you're saying that we don't need, we don't, we don't need to ask them for anything, well, you are now violating what Saint Paul says in First Corinthians 12, because in First Corinthians 12, Saint Paul says that everyone who is in the Church, we're all part of the bo- we're all members of the body of Christ, and that one member of the body cannot say to another member of the body, "I have no need for you."
嗯。 Hm.
可按照新教会的观点，如果我们可以对天上的圣人说：「我不需要你」，或 者：「我要忽略你的存在，我不需要你为我祈祷，尽管我也承认你在帮我祈 祷」，但如果我真这么讲，那我就错在违背哥林多前书十二章的教导。 But according to the Protestant position, if we can tell the, the, the, the, the saints in heaven, say, "I have no need for you," or, "I'm going to ignore you, I don't need to ask you for your prayers, even though I'll admit that you're praying for me anyway," but if I say that, now I'm guilty of violating First Corinthians 12.
也就是说，要么我违背哥林多前书十二章，要么我就得说天上的圣人并不属于基督的身体。 So either, either I'm gonna violate First Corinthians 12, or somehow, the saints that are in heaven are not part of the body of Christ.
你说哪种对呢？ Which is it?
哥林多前书第十二章。 First Corinthians 12.
你不会想…… You're not gonna...
你也不会想说是圣人出了问题。 You don't wanna say it's them.
你也不可能说那些和我们的主同在天上的圣人已经不属于教会身体的一部分，对吧？ You don't wanna say it's the saints who are already in heaven with our Lord, that they're not part of this body anymore, right?
那么，既然他们是基督身体的一部分，我们为什么要忽略他们？ So if they're part of the body of Christ, why are we ignoring them?
如果你身为新教徒并拒绝圣人代祷，为什么你会觉得我们就该忽略他们呢？ Why do you think that we should ignore them if you're a Protestant and you reject the intercession of the saints?
为什么？ Why?
然后我会说：「哦，顺便说一下，其实也有很多新教徒，比如圣公会的，还有很多路德 宗的，他们是相信圣徒相通，并且会向圣人请求代祷的。」那我要跟哪个新教派呢？ And then I was like, "Oh..." And I, and I would point out, "Oh, and by the way, there are many Protestants, like the Anglicans and, and even many Lutherans, that actually do believe in, in the, uh, communion of the saints, and they actually do pray to the saints, they ask the saints for prayers." So which Protestant should I go with?
我是该跟随路德宗和圣公会的吗？ Should I go with the Luth- the Lutherans and the Anglicans?
还是要去找那些不隶属任何宗派、彼此观念也不统一的新教徒，或者加 尔文派却不同意亚米纽派，普通浸信会又不同意改革宗浸信会的人呢？ Or should I go with the non-denominational Christians that can't even agree with each other, or with the Calvinists that can't even agree with the Arminians, or with the General Baptists that can't agree with the Reformed Baptists?
我该选择哪一个？ Which one should I go with?
「你要我成为新教徒？ "You want me to be a Protestant?
好啊，那我就加入圣公会，我仍然会向圣人祈求代祷。」那到底怎样才对？ Okay, cool, but I'm gonna go with Anglicans, and I'm gonna keep praying to the saints." So which is it?
因为根据圣公会的新教立场，向圣人求代祷是符合「唯独圣经」的解释的。 Because according to the Anglican, uh, according to Anglican Protestantism, uh, praying to the saints is in line with the Sola Scriptura.
依他们对经文的理解，这是没问题的。 According to their understanding of Sola, of, of the Scriptures, we can do it.
那，到底哪个对呢，对吧？ So, so which is it, right?
这个问题很有意思。 Good question.
还有其他反对意见吗？ Any other objections?
「如果他们已经去世，怎么听得到我们的祈祷？」 How can they hear us if they're dead?
这就像新教徒常见的反驳。 Like, that would be like a Protestant objection.
他们会问，怎…… Like, how-
怎么…… How-
…… ...
你怎么知道他们能听到我们？ do you know they can hear us?
经文哪里说他们能听到我们的祈祷？ Like, where in Scripture can you find that they can hear us?
对。 Right.
首先，我会说，那些圣人并没有死。 So I would say, first of all, the saints aren't dead.
在天上的圣人比你我都更「活」，因为他们在天 上与我们的主同在，所以比我们更有真生命。 The saints that are in heaven are more alive than you and I, because they're in heaven with our Lord, so they're actually more alive than us.
如果你承认《启示录》五章八节和八章三节，说天上的圣人及天使能把 我们的祈祷呈到神座前，这本身就足以说明他们知道我们的祈祷是什么 ，特别是结合哥林多前书第十二章所说，我们同属一个身体。保罗明明 讲我们是同一个身体，所以若一个肢体受苦，大家都一同受苦。 And if you will admit that Revelation 5:8 and 8:3, that the saints that are in heaven, and the angels too, that they're able to present our prayers before the throne of God, that alone is enough to prove that they know what, what our prayers are, especially in light of First Corinthians 12, which says that we're all one body, and if we're all one bo- So literally, Saint Paul says we're all one body, so if one member of the body suffers, we all suffer.
若一个肢体得荣耀，我们就一同快乐，对吧？ And if one member of the body is honored, then we all should rejoice, right?
这也是我觉得很多新教徒可能并没有彻底想过的问题。 Which is another thing that I, I don't think Protestants have thought all the way through.
所以，他们究竟是怎么听到我们祷告的呢？ So, um, how do, how would they be able to hear us?
因为神准许了，显然神许可他们这么做…… Well, because God would allow it, because obviously he would allow it in...
你看，圣经在《启示录》里就提及这种状况，因为我们是同一个身体，这就是原因。 You know, he allowed it in the Book of Revelation, um, because we're all one body, that's why.
至于我们在世上生活的人，会受到我们肉身和物理条件的限制。 Those of us here that are on Earth, we are limited by normal, physical, natural limitations of being in the flesh here on Earth.
可是在天国里的圣人不会遭受这些局限，因为他们已经与神同在， 已进入完全状态，也已瞻仰神的奥妙，所以能够洞悉神的智意。 But the saints that are in heaven, they don't have, they don't have that problem, because they're already perfect being with God, and because they have the beatific vision, meaning that they get to see the mind of God.
正因为看见了神的心思，他们才能知道他的身体…… It is through seeing the mind of God that they know what the prayers of his body-...
的祈祷是什么。 are.
他们便可成为我们的祈祷伙伴，也能以他们的祈 祷来支持我们的祈祷，把我们的祈祷献给神。 And they're able to, to actually become our prayer partners, and they're able to also throw their prayers, you know, behind our prayers, and they're able to take our prayers to God.
之所以要天上的天使和圣人为我们代祷，是因为圣经告诉 我们，好比雅各书第五章，说圣洁之人的祷告大有力量。 And the reason that we want the angels and the saints in heaven to pray for us is because the Bible tells us, for example, like in James chapter five, that, uh, the prayers of holy people are the strongest.
圣经也告诉我们，比如在彼得后书里，罪恶会妨碍我们的祷告。 And the Bible also tells us, like in se- in, uh, second Peter, that sin actually hinders our prayer.
罪会拦阻我们的祈祷。 Sin hinders our prayers.
那么，你想想看？ Well, guess what?
天上的天使和圣人因为身处天国并没有罪，因此他们的代祷比我们的更有力量。 The angels and the saints that are in heaven, they don't have any sin because they're already in heaven, so their prayers are stronger than ours.
所以我真心希望圣人能为我代祷，因为他们比我更圣洁，我需要圣人的代祷来增强我的祈 祷得蒙垂听的机会。若只有我自己求，我这么个可怜愚笨的人，神也许都懒得再理我。 So that's why I would like the saints to pray for me, thank you very much, because they're holier than me and I need the prayers of holy people to make sure that my prayers get answered, because if it's just me praying for myself, God will never listen to me again because I am a wretched fool.
感谢神有这些在天上与主同在的圣徒，他们为我代祷。 Thank God that there are holy people and holy saints that are already in heaven with the Lord that are praying for me.
我一切的好事，恐怕都要归功于这些圣洁之人的代祷。 That's the only reason anything good is happening in my life, is because of the prayers of good, holy people like the saints.
道理就在这里。 That's why.
那么…… So...
我原本还想再说些什么。 I was going somewhere with this.
本来准备了个总结，可我现在想不起来了。 I had a big grand finale and I can't remember.
我的思路断了。 I lost my train of thought.
不过，呃…… But, um...
嗯，还有什么问题吗？ Yeah, anything else?
还有别的反对意见吗？ Any other objections?
「一旦得救，永不失落」。 Once saved, always saved.
是的，「一次得救，永远得救」。 Once saved, always saved.
这是新教特别的「永保安全」教义。 So this is the, uh, unique Protestant belief of eternal security.
「一旦得救，永不失落」就是字面意思：只要你一旦得救了，就再也不可能失去救恩…… Once saved, always saved means exactly what it sounds like it means, meaning that once you are saved, once you have received salvation, then you can no longer lose...
你就一直处于那个状态，不再…… That you're stuck in that state and you can no longer...
你不能失去救恩。 You cannot lose salvation.
你得救了，你就一直得救，无论怎样都不会改变。 You're saved and you will always be saved, no matter what.
那么，你只要去看圣经里很多很多经文，它们其实跟这种讲法相左。 Well, all you have to do is go to all of the countless, countless, countless scriptures that actually say otherwise.
举个例子，你们之中有多少人读过希伯来书—那封写给希伯来人的书信？ For example, how many of you have ever read the book of to the Hebrews, letter, the Epistle of the Hebrews?
如果你去读《希伯来书》，比如第四章、第六章、第八章、第十章、第 十二章，几乎整卷书都很清楚地告诉我们，人确实有可能失去救恩。 If you read like Hebrews, like basically chapters four, six, eight, 10, 12, pretty much the entire epistle, it is clear, it is clear that you can indeed actually lose your salvation.
实际上，让我来简单翻阅其中的一些内容。 Matter of fact, let me actually go through some of those.
我想列举一些经文，因为我可以很快找到它们。 I'm gonna go through some of these 'cause I c- I can pull them up really quick.
我会简单说几个，让我们读几段，你们就会发现：「哇，怎么会这样…… I'm gonna go through some of these and let, let's read just a, just a couple, just a few, um, so that you guys can see like, "Wow, how can like, um...
怎么可能有人还会坚持所谓的『一次得救，永远得救 』、『永保安全』呢？」我先快速念几处经文…… How can anyone actually like hold to this idea of, uh, you know, eternal security, of once saved always saved?" Really quick, let me rattle off all of the scriptures that would actually...
我不会逐字逐句地读，只是告诉你大概的意思。 I'm not even gonna read them, I'm just gonna tell you like what they say.
好的。 Okay.
《哥林多前书》第十五章第一到第二节提到，你有可能『徒然地相信』。 First Corinthians 15 verses one and two say that you can believe in vain.
也就是说，你可能信了，却是徒然的，对不对？ It's possible to believe and believe in vain, right?
呃，《哥林多前书》第二章第十五节提到，得救是一个过程。 Uh, first Corinthians, uh, 2:15 says that salvation is a process.
可是，呃，《哥林多后书》第六章第一节说明，你可以『徒然地领受恩典』。 But, uh, uh, second Corinthians chapter six verse one says that you can receive grace in vain.
然后《哥林多后书》第十三章说，你必须省察自己，否则就可能失败。 And chapter 13 of second, uh, Corinthians says that you have to test yourselves or, uh, or fail.
也就是说，如果你…… That if you...
唯有检验自己，才能知道自己是否仍在恩典之中， 是否得救，而且的确有可能没通过这考验，对吗？ That the only way to know if you're in grace and the only way to know you're, that you're saved is if you test yourself to know, and that you can actually fail that test, right?
呃，《加拉太书》一章六节说，那些已得救的人， 例如加拉太的信徒，也可能转向『别的福音』。 Uh, Galatians 1:6 says that it's possible for people that are saved, like the Galatians, to turn to a different gospel.
如果你转向别的福音，也就意味着你和耶稣基督隔绝 了，因为这是圣保罗在《加拉太书》第一章说的。 And if you turn to a different gospel, that means that you cut yourself off from Jesus Christ, because that's what Saint Paul says in Galatians 1.
呃，《加拉太书》第三章第二到第五节则提到，你可能『徒然地领受』圣灵。 Uh, Galatians chapter three verses two to five says that you can receive the spirit in vain.
《加拉太书》第三章二十六到二十七节，以及第四章六到九节， 明确说加拉太人确实已得救，圣保罗写这封书信给这一群已经得 救、正处于恩典之下的基督徒，也警告他们可能失去救恩。 Galatians chapter three verses 26 to 27 and chapter four verses six through nine tell us explicitly that the Galatians were indeed saved, that Saint Paul is addressing his epistle to a group of Christians, a church, a local church of Christians that are saved, they are in grace, and he's warning them that they can lose their salvation.
这就是在《加拉太书》里，对吗？ That's in Galatians, right?
《加拉太书》第五章第十九到…… Galatians chapter five verses 19 to...
第十九到二十一节直接列出会让你失去救恩的罪行。 19 through 21 literally lists the sins that can cost you your salvation.
所以圣保罗写信给加拉太人…… So Saint Paul, writing to the Galatians, to...
他说他们已经得救，但就在《加拉太书》第五章第十九到二十一节那里， And he says that they're saved in the la- in the, in the second to last chapter of Galatians chapter five verses 19, 19 to 21.
他列举出人可能犯的会让你失去救恩的罪。 He lists all of the sins that you can commit that cost you your salvation.
然后若看《以弗所书》第五章第三到第六节，那里说得救的人也可能受迷惑而陷于悖逆。 And then if you go to Ephesians chapter five verses three to six, it says that the saved can be deceived into disobedience.
所以你虽然得救，也仍可能被迷惑而不顺服。 So you can be saved, you can be deceived into disobedience.
那耶稣在《约翰福音》第三章第三十六节里对那些不顺从他的人说了什么？ And what does Jesus tell us about those who disobey him in John 3:36?
《约翰福音》第三章第三十六节说，那些信的人就能得救， The Gospel of John chapter three verse 36 says, uh, those who believed, um, will receive salvation.
但那些不顺从的就不能得救。 Those who do not obey, those who disobey will not.
所以你纵然得救，后来也可能陷入不顺从；若你悖逆了，就 会在《约翰福音》第三章第三十六节所说的耶稣审判之下。 So you can be saved, but then you fall into disobedience, and if you're in disobedience, you're under the condemnation of Jesus in John 3:36.
《哥林多前书》第九章，以及《腓立比书》第二章，还有《希伯 来书》第二章、第三章、第六章、第十章等等，圣保罗在《哥林 多前书》和《腓立比书》中明确说他自己也可能失去救恩。 First Corinthians chapter nine, uh, and, uh, Philippians chapter two and Hebrews chapter two and three and six and 10, um, w- uh, Saint Paul in first Corinthians and in, uh, Philippians, he literally says that he can lose his own salvation.
你去读《哥林多前书》第九章，圣保罗说…… Go and read first Corinthians nine and Saint Paul says...
他说：「我可以传道给别人，可是我自己却可能被弃绝，就算已经传道给世人了。」所以 连圣保罗自己都认为他可能失去救恩，这是《哥林多前书》第九章第二十七节所说的。 He says, "It's possible that I can go and preach to the world and then m- I might still be disqualified even after having preached to the world." So even Saint Paul believed that he could lose his own salvation, first Corinthians 9:27.
在《提摩太前书》第五章第八节…… In first Timothy chapter five verse eight...
这是个有趣的经文段落。 This is a fun one.
《提摩太前书》第五章第八节说，如果你不供养自己的家人，就等于背弃了信仰。 First Timothy 5:8 says that if you don't provide for your family, you disown the faith.
所以假设你已得救，但你身为丈夫、身为父亲，却不供养自己的家人， So let's say you're s- you're saved, but then, you know, let's say you're a husband, a father, and you don't provide for your own family.
实际上，《提摩太前书》第五章第八节说，如果你不供养家人，那比不信的人还不如。 Literally, uh, first Timothy 5:8, go and read it, it actually says you're worse than an unbeliever if you don't provide for your family.
哇。 Wow.
如果你不供养自己的家人，就比不信的人更糟，而且算是背弃信仰。 You're worse than an unbeliever and you disown the faith if you don't provide for your own family.
这听起来像是「噢，不管怎样你还是得救」吗…… Does that sound like you're o- you know...
圣保罗可没说：「哦，如果你不供养家人，那么你虽 比信徒更糟，但还算得救。」他并没这样说，对吧？ Saint Paul didn't say, "Oh, if you stop providing for your own family, you know, you're worse than a believer, but you're still saved." He didn't say that, right?
呃，《彼得前书》第一章第六到第七节说，信心是可以毁坏的。 Uh, first Peter chapter one verses six through seven says that faith can perish.
所以，如果我们是凭「唯独信心」得救（这是新教的 另一项但其实并不符合圣经的主张），那么彼得…… So if we're saved by faith alone, sola fide, which is another Protestant belief that's actually not biblical, well, S- uh, Peter...
就算我们看彼得怎么说，信心可以失落——然后，嗯 ，《彼得后书》，这是我想特别读给你们听的内容。 Even if we grant that Peter says faith can perish-And then, um, second Peter, this is the one that I'm going to read.
我实际上要把它读出来。 I'm actually going to read this one.
《彼得后书》第二章。 Second Peter chapter two.
让我们看《彼得后书》第二章第二十到二十二节，然后就用这个例子。 Let's go to second Peter chapter two, verses 20 through 22, and I'll leave you guys with this.
来看看这个。 Check this out.
你们看看，这听起来像是「永保安全」、一次得救永远得救、无法失去救恩的说法吗？ You all tell me if this sounds like eternal security, or once saved, always saved, that you can't lose your salvation.
《彼得后书》第二章…… Second Peter 2 verses...
从第二十节开始这样说：「倘若他们因为得了…… starting in verse 20 says this, "For if after they have accepted the def- the...
他们既脱离了…… they have escaped...
是的，既然他们已脱离世上的污秽…… yeah, after they have escaped the defilements of the word...
从世界的……我要…… of the world..." I'm gonna...
好，让我重新念。 okay, let me start again.
把刚才那段跳过。 Cut that part out.
《彼得后书》二章二十节说：「若他们因认识主—救主耶稣基督，得以脱离世 上的污秽，后来又在其中被缠住打败，他们末后的景况就比先前更不好了。」 Second Peter 2:20 says this, "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
「他们若不认识义路还好；既然认识了，又转离所传给他们的圣命，倒不如不认识为妙。」 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
「俗语说：『狗所吐的，它又转过来吃；猪洗净了，又回到泥里去打滚。 』这话在他们身上正合式。」你觉得这听起来像是永不失落的救恩吗？ It has happened to them according to the true proverb, the dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire." Does that sound like eternal security to you?
听起来像是你永远无法失去救恩吗？ Does that sound like you can never lose your salvation?
使徒彼得实实在在地说，如果你已经认识了我们的主耶 稣基督的真理，然后再回到罪里，你的景况会更糟。 He- s- sa- Saint Peter, the first pope, literally said that it's worse, it's worse for you if you did come to knowledge of the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ and then you go back to your sin.
他明确说，你末后的境况比先前还不如，比那些从没信过耶稣的人更糟。 It literally says the last state is worse than your first state, that you're worse than a sinner that never came to faith in Jesus Christ to begin with.
接着他还把你比作狗。 And then he calls you a dog.
他说：「你是回头去吃自己所吐之物的狗。」这话相当直接，对吧？ He says, "You're a dog that's returned to his vomit." That's pretty, uh, pretty explicit language, huh?
的确很直接。 Pretty explicit language.
然后，然后，你其实可以继续说下去。 And, and, and then, and then, you know, you could actually keep going.
《约翰二书》第一章第八节说，你可能失去你所劳碌得来 的，并与『完全的赏赐』作对比，也就是指天上的赏赐。 Second John 1:8 says that you can lose what you've worked for, and con- and he contrasts that with a full reward, meaning the full reward of heaven.
他指出你确实可能失去。 He says you can lose it.
呃，《犹大书》第五到第八节提到，你可以是个…… Uh, Jude, the Epistle to Jude in verses five through eight says, um, that you can be a...
书里明确说你可能得救后又陷入不信。 It literally says this, that you can be saved and then destined for unbelief.
然后在第二十一节，提到你必须保守自己常在神的爱中。 And then in verse 21, it says, it says you have to keep yourself in God's love.
《犹大书》就一章，第21节说你要保守自己常在神的爱里。 Jude, there's only one chapter, verse 21 says that you have to keep yourself in God's love.
你是有可能把自己从神的爱里挪开的。 You're able to remove yourself from God's love.
然后看看《启示录》第二章、第三章、第十四章、第二十章、第二十一章、第二十二章。 And then read Revelation 2, Revelation 3, Revelation 14, Revelation 20, Revelation 21, Revelation 22.
把《启示录》整卷都读下来。 Read the whole book of Revelation.
再读整卷《希伯来书》。 Read the whole book of the Epistle of the Hebrews.
是啊，一切都很清楚。 Yeah, it's clear, man.
「永保安全」并不符合圣经。 Eternal security is not biblical.
圣经里并没有这样的教导。 It's not ta- it's not taught in there.
圣保罗在《以弗所书》中明白说过，你可以与基督隔绝。 Saint Paul literally says in Ephesians, he says you can cut yourself off from Christ.
如果我们说是『与基督隔绝』，就表示得先与他结合，之后才能断绝关系。 If you cut yourself off from Christ, you gotta be first united to him to begin with, in order to cut yourself off from him.
所以，「永保安全」并不在圣经当中。 So no, eternal security is not biblical.
嗯，好，你请说。 Yeah, go ahead.
那么与此相反的观点呢？ What about the opposite of that?
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
也就是那种好像说「人人都注定要下地狱」。 Which is kind of like everybody's damned if you say so.
几乎所有人都被定罪，只有少数得救吗？ Everybody is damned with only a few saved?
是的。 Yes.
我们知道《提摩太前书》告诉我们，神愿意万人得救。 Well, we know that the scripture tells us in First Timothy that, um, it is God's desire for all men to be saved.
神愿所有人都能够得救。 God wants all men to be saved.
不过圣经里并没有告诉我们大多数人都会得救，或者大多数人都被定罪。 But there's nothing in scripture that would tell us that the majority of people are gonna be saved or that the majority of people are gonna be damned.
耶稣告诉我们的是，那条路是窄的。 You know, what Jesus does tell us is that it is a narrow path.
你必须走那窄路才能进窄门，对吧？ You have to be on the nar- the narrow path to enter through the narrow gate, right?
许多人想从别的路进来，却进不来，对吗？ Many will try to come in through another way, and they won't be able to, right?
有些人据此解读为，也许只有少数人能得救。 So many people have interpreted that as meaning, like, hey, maybe it's only going to be a few that are saved.
至于「只有少部分人得救，而绝大多数人被定罪」的说法， 神的启示、圣经或教会传统都没有明确陈述这样的内容。 That, that, uh, question about only, only a few are going to be saved and vast majority of people are going to be damned, that's actually not something that is, uh, explicitly clear or even mentioned at all in divine revelation, in the scripture, or in the tradition of the church.
因此那并不是启示里的一部分，我们只能推测而已，对吗？ So that's something that isn't part of divine revelation, so we can only speculate on such things, right?
你甚至可以用数学去推算。 And you can even break it down, like, mathematically.
你可以想想，自耶稣时代以来所有存在过的人，有多少人真正听闻了主耶稣基督。 You could, like, look at, like, all of the people that have ever lived, like since the time of Jesus, that would have an explicit knowledge of, you know, the Lord Jesus Christ.
历世历代加起来有多少人，其中有多少人真正成了基督徒？ How many people have ever lived, and then statistically, how many of those people actually were Christian?
然后做个大概的比例，你也许就会有个概念。 And then, like, kind of, like, maybe do the math and you can kind of see.
所以有一种数学方式可以计算。 So there's, like, a mathematical way to do it.
你们应该能做这种推算，因为你们在学校里，而我 是在街头长大，没怎么上过学，所以我不知道。 You guys could probably do it 'cause you guys go to the school, and I, I grew up in the streets, I never went to school, so I don't know.
你们可以做这个数学题。 You guys do the math.
不过或许你真能通过算术方法得到一个不错的推论。 But maybe you could, uh, you can maybe actually come to a pretty good, you know, conclusion just do- doing the math.
这是个有趣的问题。 That's a good question.
在过去两千年间，究竟有多少基督徒存在过？ How many Christians have ever lived in- in the last 2000 years?
这是个好问题。 That's a good question.
恐怕是好几十亿，因为现今大约有多少？十三亿…… It's billions and billions and billions, because right now, there's about, what, 1.3 billion...
啊不，嗯，现在的基督徒差不多有二十亿或者超过二十亿左右。 Or no, um, how many Chri- Uh, there's like two billion, more than two billion Christians in the world right now.
那你想想过去两千年所有世代人数加起来。 So imagine all over the last 2000 years.
那可真是很多人。 It's a lot of people.
非常多。 A lot of people.
然后把这个数与自耶稣时代以来的总人口作比较， And then compare that number to all of the people that have lived since the time of Jesus.
这就很有意思了。 Interesting.
那么，还有别的问题吗？ So, any other questions?
嗯哼，还有一个问题。 Mm-hmm, one more.
只能问最后一个了吗？ Time for only one more?
对。 Yeah.
那就好好问吧。 Make it good.
好的。 I will.
我正在想。 I'm trying.
你要是想问个难题也行，看你需要什么。 Make it bad then if you want, if you need to.
嘿，你最喜欢回应哪一种反对意见？ Hey, what's your favorite objection to respond to?
我最喜欢回应的反对意见？ My favorite objection to respond to?
其实它们都一样让我心烦。 They all annoy me the same.
不过我喜欢回应那些值得讨论的好问题。 Um, I like responding to good objections.
我真的喜欢回应有深度的问题，因为那比较有意思。 I really like responding to good objections, um, 'cause it's fun.
我喜欢回应那些值得认真回答的质疑。 Like, I like responding to things that are worthy of, like, a response.
比如，嗯…… Like, um...
有什么是不错的反对意见呢？…… What's a good objection?...
因为，让我这么说吧， because, let, let me tell you something.
有些事情我完全能理解。 There are things that I totally under- I totally get it.
哦，我最喜欢回应的大概是你提到的圣母终身童贞这 个议题，以及有人说马利亚后来又生了别的孩子。 Oh, here's my favorite that I love responding to, uh, 'cause you mentioned the perpetual virginity of Mary, about that, that Mary had other children.
我特别喜欢回应这种说法。 I love responding to that one.
我也不知道为什么。 I don't know why.
只是我喜欢跟人家解释清楚。 It just m- Like I, I just like showing them.
很多人会说马利亚有其他孩子，因为圣经里 mention 耶稣有兄弟，是吧？ So a lot of people will say Mary had other children, because the Bible tells us that Jesus had brothers, right?
圣经还列出耶稣弟兄的名字，对吧？ And the Bible even tells us the names of Jesus' brothers, right?
呃，有雅各，约西，西门，还有犹大，对吗？ Uh, James, Joseph, Simon and, and Judas, right?
就是这几位。 So there it is.
看起来很清楚。 It's cl- It's plain.
耶稣有兄弟，所以他有手足，也就代表马利亚还有别的孩子。 Jesus had other brothers, so he had siblings, so that, that means that Mary had other children.
我明白他们的想法。 I get it.
我完全了解。 I totally, totally get it.
我可以理解为什么一个自己读圣经的新教徒不会接受马利亚终身童贞的说法。 I under- I totally understand why a Protestant who can read the Bible to not come to this idea of Mary being a perpetual virgin.
不过你知道有趣的地方吗？ But you know what's actually really funny?
圣保罗在给加拉太人的书信里提到，耶稣的那些「兄弟」中有一位其实是使徒。 Saint Paul, in his Letter to the Galatians, tells us that one of those brothers of Jesus was actually one of the apostles.
所以耶稣的一个兄弟是雅各，对吧？ So one of Jesus' brothers was James, right?
圣保罗在《加拉太书》里说，这位主的兄弟雅各， 其实是使徒，而且也是耶路撒冷的第一任主教。 And Saint Paul tells us in Galatians, he goes, th- that the brother of our Lord, James, he's actually one of the apostles, and he was also the first bishop of Jerusalem.
好，那么有趣的点来了。 Well, here's the funny thing.
如果你看福音中耶稣拣选十二使徒的记载，就会发现那位雅各的父亲叫做亚勒腓。 When you go to, like, um, like all the places in the gospel when Jesus chooses the 12 apostles, it turns out that that James, his dad is named Alphaeus.
而马利亚的丈夫可不是亚勒腓， Mary's husband was not Alphaeus.
是约瑟。 It was Joseph.
接着，《约翰福音》提到这些人的母亲的名字，发现并不是耶稣的母亲马利亚。 And then, the Gospel of John tells us the name of the m- of the mother of these guys, and it's not Mary the mother of, of Jesus.
而是另一个也叫马利亚的妇女，如果你读《约翰福音》 第十九章，就知道她跟耶稣的母亲马利亚站在一起。 It's another woman who's also named Mary, but she's standing next to Mary the mother of Jesus if you read in John 19.
她被称为「革罗巴的妻子」，对吧？ And she's actually called the wife of Clopas, right?
就是革流巴的妻子。 The wife of Cleophas.
而我们从教父的记载得知，革罗巴和亚勒腓其实是同一个人，一个是希 腊文名，另一个是他的希伯来名，希腊名字是他希伯来名字的音译。 And we know from the church fathers, they told us that Clopas and, uh, Alphaeus were the same guy, that one was the, the Gree- the Greek name and the other was, uh, his Hebrew name, and that, uh, the Greek name was like a, like a transliteration of his Hebrew name.
我不知道哪个是哪个。 I don't know which is which.
不知道革罗巴是希伯来名还是亚勒腓是希腊名，反正就是这样。 I don't know if Clopas would be the Hebrew name and then Alphaeus would be the Greek name or whatever it is.
但是我们确定这些人不可能是马利亚所生，因为我们知道雅各的父亲叫亚勒腓， But we know for sure that these guys could not have been the children of Mary, because we know that the father of James was Alphaeus.
而不是约瑟。除非我们要说马利亚…… That's not Joseph, unless we wanna say that Mary...
她在约瑟去世后又嫁给了亚勒腓，然后生了其他孩子吗？ Did she get remarried after Joseph died, and then she started having other kids?
不可能。 No.
呃，你也可以指出，英文里被译作「弟兄」的希腊 词 adelphos，其实不一定非指亲兄弟。 Uh, you can also point out that the Greek word that is used, that is translated into brethren, uh, into English, that that Greek word, adelphos, that that word actually doesn't mean, it doesn't necessarily, uh, mean like, uh, like, um, like siblings.
它也可能表示远亲。 It could also mean, like, a distant relative.
也可以表示亲族关系。 It could also mean kinsmen.
也或指同乡、同民族的人。 It could also mean fellow countrymen.
还可以表示在主内、在信仰里的弟兄，因为这个词也常这样用…… It could also den- mean that you're a brother in, a brother in the Lord, brother in the faith, 'cause that same word is used...
比如圣保罗也用这个词来称呼他在基督里的弟兄。 Like St. Paul uses that same word when he addresses his brothers in Christ.
他使用的就是 adelphos 这个希腊词。 He uses the word adelphos.
所以不能说 adelphos 就一定是血缘兄弟。 So you cannot say that adelphos has to mean biological sibling.
把其他所有证据合起来看，就能表明…… All of the other ev- evidence put together sh- shows that e-...
你知道吗，谁也支持我的这个观点？ And you know, and you know who agreed with me on this?
就是最初的新教徒。 The original Protestants.
马丁‧路德，即使在他脱离教会以后，依然坚决捍卫马利亚终身童贞的教义。 Martin Luther, even after he broke away from the church, he staunchly defended the perpetual virginity of Mary.
他可是个大力捍卫者。 He was a big defender.
他毕生到临终都维护马利亚永远童贞的教义。 To, to the day he died, he defended the perpetual virginity of Mary.
你们知道还有谁吗？ You know who else?
就是约翰·加尔文。 John Calvin.
约翰·加尔文说，福音里提到的耶稣的那些兄弟不可能是马利亚的孩子。 John Calvin said that the brothers of Jesus that are mentioned in the gospel cannot be the children of Mary.
他是这么说的。 He says that.
他写道：「他们不可能是马利亚的孩子，因为如果你说那是 马利亚的孩子，就等于忽略了圣经中关于他们的其他说法。 He goes, "They can't be Mary's children, 'cause if you say that those are Mary's children, you're ignoring all of this other stuff that the Bible says about them.
他们不可能是马利亚的孩子。」他在著作里就直 言，耶稣那些所谓的兄弟不可能是马利亚所生。 It's impossible for them to be Mary's children." He literally said that in his writings, that those brothers of Jesus can't be the children of Mary.
所以，最初的新教徒也相信马利亚的终身童贞。 So even the, the first Protestants believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
最早的新教徒其实相信了许多公教的教导。 The first Protestants believed in a lot of Catholic stuff.
正如我提到的，一六一一年第一版钦定本圣经里就含 有次经书卷，也附有包含所有圣人庆日的礼仪日历。 Like I said, the King James Bible in 1611, the first one, had the Deuterocanonical Books and it had the, the s- the, the liturgical calendar with all of the saints' feast days.
最后那些内容全都被删掉了。新教的另一个问题在于，他们一直在改变。 And eventually that, those all got taken out as well, because Protestantism, another thing, uh, that goes against them is that they've changed.
如今的新教，和最初宗教改革时期的新教，已截然不同。 The Protestantism of today does not look like the Protestantism of, of the time of the original reformers.
它已经改变了。 It has changed.
而且不只是改变，还自相矛盾。 Not only has it changed, it's contradicted itself.
确实自相矛盾。 It has contradicted itself.
所有…… All...
你们知道吗，所有的新教徒在一九三零年之前，一致都 说人工避孕是不道德的，带有内在的恶，不能使用吗？ Do you know that all Protestants up until the year 1930, they all said that, uh, artificial contraception was a, was immoral, intrinsically evil and it could not be used?
可是一九三零年左右，他们全都改了口，开始说：「哎，现在可以用避孕套了啊，兄弟。 And then ab- in the year 1930, they all changed their minds and they started saying, "Ah, you can use condoms now, bro.
这没问题。 It's cool.
只要在婚姻内。」他们就这样改口了。 Only in marriage." So they changed.
如果他们可以这样随意反复，那就不是耶稣基督的教会了，因为圣 经告诉我们，耶稣基督的教会会被引入一切真理，是圣灵在带领。 And if they can flip-flop like that, they're not the Church of Jesus Christ, because the Bible tells us that the Church of Jesus Christ is led into all truth, because the Holy Spirit runs the show.
耶稣基督说过祂会常与祂的教会同在，直到这世代的终结，并且不会让教会陷入错误。 And Jesus Christ said that He'll be with His Church always till the end of the age, and He will never let His Church fall into error.
所以问题在于，你是否相信耶稣基督的这个应许？ So the question is, do you believe in the promises of Jesus Christ or not?
如果你相信，你就必须接纳教会是耶稣基督在世上的权威。 If you do, you have to believe that the Church is the authority of Jesus Christ on Earth.
你们还有其他问题吗？ Any other questions, you guys?
我有一个私人的问题想问。 I have like just a personal question.
好，请说。 Sure.
有没有什么特别的事情或想法让你想创办这个「Voice of Reason」平台？ Was there any specific event or just like, I don't know, a perspective that made you create Voice of Reason?
然后你是如何…… And then how...
我想你也投入了许多精力和想法在其中。 I guess you kind of do it like, as like put a lot of energy and thought into it.
当人们特别固执时，你怎么不会觉得难过或沮丧呢？ How do you not get like, like sad or down whenever people are like, you know-
嗯。 Uh-huh.
…… ...
比如对方非常顽固的时候？ stubborn?
对啊。 Uh-huh.
所以，是什么激励了你？又是什么让你能继续坚持下去？ So yeah, sort of like what inspired you and then kind of what keeps you going?
这都是这家伙的「错」。 It was this guy's fault.
就是正拿着手机不理我的这个人。 This guy right here that's not even paying attention to me on his phone.
他…… He was...
就是站在镜头后面这位，他才是「Voice of Reason」背后的主意人。 He, this, this guy right here behind the camera, he's the mastermind behind Voice of Reason.
是他来说服我来做这个。 He's the one that talked me into doing this.
他花了一年多，差不多一年半时间，才让我终于点头…… It took him a, a little over a year, like a year and a half for me to finally agree to...
可以说他半逼着我做的。 He kind of forced me into it.
所以，我之所以会站在这里和你们说话，都要归功于他。 So-The reason I'm here, standing up here in front of you guys is because of this guy right here.
如果你们有什么抱怨，就找他去。 So if you have any complaints, you talk to him.
至于我在和那些很顽固的人对话时，会不会气馁或受伤之 类，其实不会。首先，我一般不太去看影片下面的评论。 And then as far as, uh, as far as, uh, me like getting like upset or hurt when I talk to str- stubborn people, I don't because, um, first of all, like I don't really read the comments on my videos.
有时我还是会看，如果遇到我能轻松回答的问题， 并且觉得能够帮到对方，我就会简短回复一下。 Sometimes I will, and sometimes occasionally I'll respond if it's like a quick and easy thing that I can respond to for the sake of helping the person that left the comment.
我不会生气，因为我知道我没法让任何人皈依。 Um, I don't get upset because like I cannot convert anybody.
亚历克斯也没法让任何人皈依。 Alex can't convert anybody.
这不属于我的职责范围。 It's not my job.
神并没有给我「让他人皈依」的任务。 G- God did not give me the job of converting people.
那不是我该做的事。 That's not my job.
神…… G- God...
你知道吗？我常常这样想。 You know, I always think about this.
你看在《使徒行传》里，使徒们到处传福音时，也没能让所有人都信服。 We can read in the Book of Acts, when the apostles were going around and they were preaching the Gospel, they didn't convince everybody.
事实上，他们常常被人赶出城， As a matter of fact, they got ran out of town quite a few times, like that.
甚至还有人试图杀他们。 And then they even tried to kill them.
而至少目前还没人想要杀我。 No one's tried to kill me yet.
所以我其实已经相当不错了。 So I, I have it pretty good.
因此我就用不着伤感，或者哭诉「唉，有个人……他并不…… So I shouldn't c- c- get my feelings hurt or cry or complain, "Oh, somebody, he doesn't...
你知道，我尽力了，可他还是不想成为公教徒。」他就是不…… you know, I, I gave him by best shot and he doesn't wanna be Catholic." He doesn't...
不会的。 No.
那…… That's...
不关我的职责。 It's not my job.
是神在掌管人的内心。 It's G- God is the one that takes care of the heart.
我所能做的不过是把资讯摆出来，让你了解，然后你再去过你 的人生，努力保持真诚并竭力跟随真理，其余的交给神就好。 All I can do is put th- the information on the table, just make sure you know it, and then you carry on with your life and make sure that you're trying your best to be sincere and m- try your best to follow the truth, and God will take care of the rest.
这不属于我的工作。 It's not my job.
一点都不是我的职责。 Not my job.
我只是来分享我所知道的东西。 I'm just here to just share what I know.
所以我不会难过，尤其想到每天都有许多这样的情况。 So I don't, I don't get upset, especially when I think about like the countless count every single day.
我们两天后就要庆祝频道成立两周年了，对吧？ D- d- it's like w- we're about to celebrate our two-year anniversary, uh, uh, in two days, right?
十三号这天就是「Voice of Reason」启动满两周年。 The 13th is when we're celebrating two years of Voice of Reason since we started.
自从我们开始做这件事，这两年来，成千上万的人联络我，说：「嘿， And since we started, for two years, man, like tsh, thousands and thousands and thousands of people that have reached out to me saying, "Hey.
谢谢你所做的分享。 Thank you for your work.
我准备加入公教会了。」你们想听个有趣的经历吗？ I'm coming into the Catholic Church." You guys wanna hear a cool story?
我有一位很好的朋友，克里斯神父认识她。 I have a really good friend who Father Chris knows.
克里斯神父和她见过面。 Father Chris got to meet her.
她是亚美尼亚人，对吧？ She's, uh, from Armenia, right?
前几天她告诉我…… And, uh, she let me know just the other day...
她原先是东方正统派，对吗？ So she, she's Oriental Orthodox, right?
那是她原本所在的教会。 That was the church she came from.
她来自亚美尼亚使徒教会。 She's from the Armenian Apostolic Church.
但她知道…… And she knew that she...
公教的信仰才是真实的，所以她想成为公教徒。 that Catholicism is true and she wants to become Catholic.
她和亚美尼亚礼公教的主教见了面，你们知道在公教会中也有亚美尼亚礼。 She had a meeting with the Armenian Catholic Bishop, 'cause you guys know that the Arme- there's the Armenian Rite of the Catholic Church.
她和那位亚美尼亚礼公教主教开了次会。 She had a me- a meeting with the Armenian Catholic Bishop.
她和主教见面时，主教就面谈了她一会儿，做了简单的面试。 She sat with him and he like interviewed her for, you know, for a little bit, for, you know, he, he gave her an interview.
基本上他给了她一场神学小考，想看她对信仰是 否熟悉，也看她是否准备好了，她都通过了。 And he basically gave her like a theological exam to see if she like knew her stuff and if she was ready, and she passed it.
对吗？ Right?
在交谈当中，她表现得非常好。 Just in the conversation, she passed it with flying colors.
主教对她印象深刻，说：「我太惊讶了，你年纪轻 轻就懂这么多学问。」你们猜他对她说了什么？ He was so impressed with her and he was like, he, he was like, "I can..." He's like, "I'm so impressed that you, you're so young and you know your stuff." You know what he told her?
他说：「如果你愿意，我现在立刻就可以接纳你进入教会。」 He said, "I can receive you into the Church right now if you want."
哦。 Oh.
哇。 Wow.
「如果你愿意的话，你现在今天就能成为公教徒， "Right now you can become Catholic, right now today if you want.
你只要去办妥告解， All you gotta do is go to, make your confession.
我听你的告解，你宣认信仰，然后我给你圣餐，你就属于公教了。」 I'll hear your confession, you're gonna make a profession of faith, and I'll give you the Eucharist and you're Catholic."
哇。 Wow.
太好了。 Good.
她说：「我能不能等一等？好让我的朋友也能来看我领受这些？ 」 And she said, she said, "Can I wait just so that my friends can come and see this and this?"
对。 Yeah.
所以我想她会在复活节、也就是复活前夕礼仪时正式加入吧。 So she's gonna get, so she's gonna, I think she's gonna get received like on Easter, you know, for the Easter vigil I think.
不过是啊，她就那样走进去说：「嘿，我考虑成为公教徒。」主 教就问了她一通，面谈之后，就说：「好啊，你今天就能加入。 」这很不错，因为一般人可能得去慕道课程上三年之类的…… But yeah, she literally just walked in the door and she's like, "Hey, I, I'm thinking about becoming Catholic." And he's like, you know, he grilled her, interviewed her, and then he was like, "All right, well, you could do it today." That's, that's pretty cool considering that you gotta go to OCIA for like three years or whatever it is and...
那都是因为她很懂信仰。 Just 'cause, just 'cause she knew her stuff.
我不想自夸什么，但主教后来就问她：「我很好奇，你是怎么明白这些的？ And I don't wanna brag or anything but like the, the bishop afterwards he's like, he's just like, "I'm so curious, like how do you know this stuff?
多数人都不懂你知道的那些。」她说：「我经常听『Voice of Reason』，还听特伦特·霍恩的内容。」她就是谈到自己常在 YouTube上关注哪几个人，从而能通过那位主教的神学考核。 Like most people don't know what you know." And she goes, "I listen to Voice of Reason and I listen to Trent Horn." And she was just talking about all the guys on YouTube that she likes, that she likes to listen to and that's how she was able to pass the good bishop's theological exam.
所以听到这样的故事，我根本不在意那些负面的人。 So stories, with stories like that, I don't care about like the negative people.
我甚至没看那些负面留言，因为我忙不过来。 I don't even see those comments 'cause I'm too busy.
你知道…… I'm, you know...
总之就是这样。 So anyway.
好啦，我们就快结束了，还有什么话题吗？ Yeah, anything else before we head out?
没有。 No.
好。 Yeah.
大概就这样吗？ Pretty much it?
对。 Yeah.
好的，谢谢大家听我在这里唠叨。 Well, thank you guys for listening to my yapping.
谢谢你们…… Thank you for...
谢谢你们愿意听我的一连串说话。 Thank you for listening to my ramblings.
我很感谢。 I appreciate it.
在家收看的各位，也请记得点赞、分享和订阅。 And those of you that are watching at home, make sure that you like, share, and subscribe.
愿一切荣耀归于耶稣基督。 Glory to Jesus Christ.
荣耀与颂赞。 Glory and praise.
耶稣。 Jesus.
谢谢你们。 Thank you, guys.