我很喜欢和年轻人交谈并一起工作，这真的让我很兴奋——我很高兴能在这里。 I love talking and working with young people, and this really is—I’m excited to be here.
我们其实也在录制这场活动，原因是——待会儿我会 再多讲一些关于录这种演讲以及可能发生的情况。 We are actually filming this too, just for—I’ll talk a little bit more about filming talks like this and what can happen with that in a minute.
我们今天要讨论的主题是——我不知道别人告诉你我们会聊什 么，但我们会在二十五分钟内探讨许多与性有关的不同议题。 What we’re going to be chatting about today is—I don’t know what they told you we were talking about, but we’re going to be looking at a lot of the different topics surrounding sexuality in 25 minutes.
就像我在Ritter教高中毕业班时一样，那时候这部分要上两堂课，另外还有一堂课。 So, like this at Ritter, when I was teaching high school seniors, was two classes, and this was another class.
之后我们上了一堂课谈同性婚姻，然后又有一堂课讨论同性收养。 Then we did a class on homosexual marriage and then another class on homosexual adoption.
避孕——也是两堂课。 Contraception—two classes.
有一堂课我们并没有特别讲口交；那会有点奇怪。 One class we didn’t have a class on oral sex; that would be weird.
那时还有一堂是关于贞洁、独身、以及祭司圣职的完全不同的话题。 Chastity was the talk, celibacy, priesthood was a whole other.
我们每堂课都有一个半小时，而现在要在二十五分钟内全部讲完。 Each of our classes was an hour and a half, so we’re going to do it all in 25 minutes.
好的，所以我现在要非常快地说了。 Okay, so I’m going to talk really fast now.
我花了很长时间在思考这场演讲——要如何把这些内容浓缩成一个 核心，而且这些话题除了都和性相关之外，彼此又有什么联系？ I was thinking about this talk for a long time—like how can we siphon it all down to something that’s really kind of central, and how is it all related other than just it’s about sexual things?
我想今天要我们快速思考的一个问题，也请你们也想想， 就是：如果我不总是顺着我的欲望去行动，我会爆炸吗？ I think the question that I want us to think about today, really quickly—I want you to think about as well—is this question: If I don’t always act on my attractions, will I explode?
这是我们今天的核心问题。 That’s the key question for us today.
我不是——虽然听起来好像有点好笑，但这确实是我想让我们思考的问题 ，因为所有相关议题最终都汇聚在这里，我们要讨论它们怎样连在一起。 I’m not—like, it’s funny, ha-ha, but literally this is the question that I want us to think about because all of these things really kind of come together here, and we’re going to talk about how they come together.
我们当然觉得答案是否定的，可是有很多人——很多在娱乐圈、音乐 、电影、电视等领域的人——他们基本上在公开或暗中对抗公教会。 You know, we think, of course, the answer is no, but there are a lot of people— a lot of people who work in the entertainment industries, music, movies, television—all of the people who are basically kind of fighting either outwardly or subtly against the Catholic Church.
对他们来说，这个问题的答案是「会」，我会爆炸。 The answer for them to this is yes, I will explode.
他们觉得自己真的会爆炸，或者变得怪异。 I will literally explode or become a freak.
好的，在他们看来，这两种情况没什么区别。 Okay, which they’re both the same.
我意思是，如果我会变成怪胎，那不如直接爆炸算了，因为这样就死了。 I mean, if I’m going to become a freak, then I might as well just explode because then I’m dead.
社会上很多人在说「会」，很多人会告诉你答案就是「会」。我想让你思考：你相信吗？ Society is saying yes; there are a lot of people out there telling you that the answer to this question is yes, and I want you to think about: Do you believe that?
你是否相信，如果我不总是顺着自己的欲望去行动，我就会爆炸？ Do you believe that if I don’t always act on my attractions, I will explode?
你觉得是哪一种？ Which way do you think?
因为，正如我所说，很多人都在说「会」。 Because there are a lot of people, again, out there saying yes.
然后公教会在这里说「不会」。 And then you have the Catholic Church over here saying no.
基本上只有公教会会告诉你「不会」。 The Catholic Church is about the only place where you’re going to find people telling you no.
我们稍后会谈谈其他基督徒就这个问题的看法，但总的 来说，你唯一能听到「不会」的地方，就是公教会。 We will talk about what other Christians say about this specific question here in a minute, but basically the only place where you’re going to find no is from the Catholic Church.
你也许会想，这很傻，他是一位祭司，当然会这么说。 And you might think, well, that’s stupid; he’s a priest, of course he’s going to say that.
但我是真心这么说，而且我也没收任何钱来说这些话。 I really mean that, and I’m not getting paid to say that.
公教会强调「不会」，我如果不顺着欲望去行动也不会爆炸，这点 非常重要。因为，通常会有人告诉你，如果你在化学课上对苏西有 欲望，你又不去淫想她，反而想抵抗这种冲动，你就会爆炸。 The Catholic Church is out there saying no, I do not explode if I don’t act on my attractions, and that’s really important because, again, there are a lot of people that will come out and will tell you that if you have an attraction towards Susie in chemistry class and you don’t lust after her and you try to fight that, you will explode.
美国的卫生部门负责人几年前还说，我们必须教青少年如何自慰， 这样他们才不会变得——从根本上讲，她是在说自慰是健康的。 The Surgeon General of the United States came out a few years ago and said we have to teach our teenagers how to masturbate so that they don’t become—basically she’s saying it’s healthy masturbation.
社会上有人会告诉你，如果你不顺从自己的欲望，你就会不健康。 Society—there are people out there telling you that acting on your—if you do not act on your attractions, you are unhealthy.
好吧？ Okay?
很多人也对此抱有类似看法，这也是在同性恋议题中的核心问题。 There are people—this is the central question around this issue of homosexuality as well.
人们会说，你看，这些人有欲望；难道你要告诉他们不能照着做吗？ People are saying, look, these people have an attraction; are you telling them that they can’t act?
为什么要对他们说「不」？ Why would you tell them no?
如果他们忍住，那就会爆炸。 If they don’t, they’re going to explode.
你凭什么告诉别人，他们不该总是跟着欲望走？ Who are you to tell someone that they shouldn’t always act on their attractions?
如果他们都没压抑，那我又怎么可能做到不顺着欲望？ If they didn’t, how can I not act on my attractions?
很多人都在要求你这样想。 Is what a lot of people are asking you to think about.
你看，教会也反对避孕。 You know, the Church is against contraception.
你是不是在说已婚夫妇不能随时想发生关系就发生？ Are you saying that a married couple can’t just have sex all the time?
他们若想用自然的方式规划家庭，就要有四五天不能有性行为吗？ That they’re supposed to—if they want to practice natural family planning, are supposed to abstain from sexual activity for four or five days?
天哪！ Well, my heavens!
你这是要让那对已婚夫妇变成怪人。 You’re asking that married couple to become weirdos.
你要他们变成怪胎，就因为要忍五天？ You’re telling them to become freaks because that would be five days?
你在开玩笑吗？ Are you kidding me?
天啊，我们会有到处都爆炸的已婚夫妇——才五天？ My heavens, we’d have married couples blowing up everywhere—five days?
天啊，你一定是在开玩笑。 My heavens, you’ve got to be kidding me.
你在说你们公教徒的祭司从来没有过任何性行为吗？ You’re telling me that you Catholics have priests that never, ever have sex?
当然！ Well, of course!
难怪他们都很怪，也难怪所有这些祭司都是怪人。 No wonder they’re all weird, and no wonder all the priests are weird people.
你是说，身为公教徒，这种贞洁的想法——真的能做到那样生活、不顺着欲望吗？ You’re saying, as Catholics, this idea of chastity—that it’s possible to live that way and not act on my attractions?
对今天大多数人来说，公教会在这些议题上的说法——很多人一听就觉得， 公教会在他们心里完全没有任何公信力，只因为教会给出的答案就是这样。 That, to most people today, all of these things—what the Church says about that—most people hear that, and they don’t even—the Church has zero credibility for most people because of this answer that the Church gives here.
社会——很多人，而且越来越多人认同那个立场，也就是说，你必须跟着欲望走。 Society—a lot of people, and more and more people are joining, I think, this part of it that are saying, yeah, you have to act on your attractions.
现在我想请各位思考这个问题，主要是因为我想在黑板上写一点东西。 Here’s the question that I want us to consider, mainly because I want to write on the board.
好吧？ Okay?
我们先来看那些说「是的，我必须跟着欲望走」的人。 So we have the people that say yes, I must act on my attractions.
好吧？ Okay?
我没法控制。 I can’t help it.
好吧？ Okay?
他们觉得必须每次都要顺着吸引力去行动。 Must act on attractions—always, every time.
然后教会这边说「不，我不一定要跟着欲望里走」。 Then you have the Church over here saying no, I don’t always act on my attractions.
在地球上我们确实存在一些，数量还很多的生物，牠们就一定要随着欲望行动。 We have something on this earth—there’s a lot of them on this earth that must act on their attractions.
它们是谁呢？ What are they called?
有人知道吗？ Anybody know?
我们有一大群这样的生物——也就是动物。 We have a group of things—lots of them—animals.
好吧？ Okay?
在发情季节里，一只小雄鹿看到母鹿从跟前走过。 A little male deer in the middle of mating season, and the lady deer prances by.
那只雄鹿不会停下来思考：「我该贞洁生活吗？」 The male deer does not take a moment to think, ought I to live chastely?
不会的，他会去追母鹿，然后就会有小鹿诞生了。 No, he chases the lady deer, and then there’s baby deers.
好吧？ Okay?
以前有首歌——上一群人知道，也许你们也听过。 There’s a song that was out when I—the last group knew about it, so maybe you know about it too.
我高中时很流行，我甚至不记得歌名。 It was when I was in high school; it was called—I don’t even remember the name of the song.
我记得那时候电台一直在播。 I remember hearing it all the time on the radio.
歌中有一句：「你和我，宝贝，不就是哺乳动物吗？那就 像他们在Discovery频道里做的那样来吧。」 The line from the song, “You and me, baby, ain’t nothing but mammals, so let’s do it like they do it on the Discovery Channel.”
你们知道我说的是什么吗？ You know what I’m talking about?
好吧，我是说，这首歌的词和信息当然很离谱，我那时听到就觉得，人们怎么听得下去？ Okay, it’s—I mean, the word—the message is obviously whack, but I mean, I was just listening to it and being like, how do people listen to this?
这音乐糟透了。 This is terrible music.
不过撇开这首歌在音乐上的评价不谈，他们想表达的就是：我们也是动物。 But anyways, aside from the musical critique of the song, yeah, but look, we’re animals too.
我们和那只鹿没什么不同，亲爱的，所以我在聚会上遇见你。 We’re just like the deer, honey, and so I met you at the party.
也就是说，我老公被你吸引，你也被我吸引。 So, I mean, my husband is attracted to you; you’re attracted to me.
我们在这里感觉互相有好感。 We’ve got this thing going here.
你有这种感觉吗？ Are you feeling it?
因为我感受到了。 Because I’m feeling it.
我们有了这层吸引，所以我们得去我的车里，假如我 们不顺着这股欲望走，天啊，我们就会变得奇怪。 So we’ve got this attraction thing going on, so we’ve got to go to my car because if we don’t act on this attraction, my heavens, we would be weird.
如果我们不这样做，就会成为怪胎。 We would be freaks if we didn’t act on that.
公教会挺身而出，说我不一定得跟着我的欲望走，而且——这不仅仅因为这 是关于性——教会说这是个非常重要的议题，但并不是因为它只关乎性。 The Catholic Church stands up and says I don’t have to act on my attractions, and in fact—and this isn’t just because it’s about sex—the Church says this is a huge thing, not because it’s about sex.
人们总是说，哦，公教会太执着于性了。 People are always like, oh, the Church is so obsessed with sex.
不，其实是我们自己在纠结性，教会只是努力站出来说，瞧，这里面有非常重要的事情。 No, we’re obsessed with sex, and the Church is just trying to stand up and say, look, there’s something that’s really important going on here.
并不是因为教会就是想一直谈性。 Not because we’re like, oh, we can always talk about sex.
教会说这并不是真的；公教会还说，正是因为我 不总是跟着自己的欲望走，这才让我成为人。 The Church says not only is this not true; the Church is saying precisely because I don’t always act on my attractions, that is what makes me a human.
这种能力正是我和鹿的差别所在，而我也没有鹿角。 This ability is precisely what distinguishes me from the deer, and I don’t have antlers.
好吧？ Okay?
就是，对吧？ I mean, yes, right?
好吧？ Okay?
但重点是，公教会想表达的是，能够决定「我并不非得依照欲望行事」的能力，就是人性。 But for all the main thing here going on is the Church is saying, look, this ability to decide that I don’t have to act on my attractions—that’s humanity.
我们在创世记中说，我们是照着神的形象和样式被造的。 We say in Genesis that we’re made in God’s image and likeness.
但神没有这样形容鹿。 He doesn’t say that about the deer.
只有我们是按神的形象和样式被造的。 It’s just us that are made in God’s image and likeness.
神的形象和样式对我来说意味着什么？ What does God’s image and likeness do for me?
它让我能够不顺从欲望，同时也不会爆炸，而且还能因此活得很健康。 It gives me the ability to not act on an attraction and not explode, and in fact be quite healthy because of it.
这一点非常重要，但很多人却像唱那首歌的人一样，实际上在说：「谢谢你给我人性 的礼物，谢谢你给了我不必总跟着欲望走的能力，但我不想要；我想把它退回去。」 This is hugely important, and there are a lot of people that are saying this guy singing that song is basically saying thanks for the gift of humanity, thanks for the gift of being able to not act on my attractions, but I don’t want it; I want to give it back.
你看过电影《黑客帝国》吗？ Have you ever seen the movie The Matrix?
有人看过吗？ Anybody ever seen that?
《黑客帝国》里有各种欺骗，人们被谎言蒙蔽。 The Matrix is like where all this deception is going on, and people are lied to.
片中有个人想回到假象中去；他宁愿活在无知当中，很多人就是这样。 There’s a guy in the movie that wants to go back in; he’d rather live there in ignorance, and that’s what a lot of people are.
他们得到来自神的恩典，比如这种能不被欲望牵着走的宝贵能力。 They experience gifts from God, such as this most important gift of being able to not always act on my attractions.
他们却说：「是啊，非常感谢；但我不要。」 They say, yeah, thanks a lot; I don’t want it.
「你留着吧，因为我想做那只鹿。」 You can keep it because I want to be a deer.
我想想做爱就做爱。 I want to just have sex whenever I want.
我想跟着我的贪欲和各种欲望走，诸如此类， I want to act on my lust and my attractions, whatever, etc.,
等等。这是个非常重要的问题。 etc. This is a hugely important question.
你相信吗？ Do you believe that?
你相信如果我不总是顺从自己的欲望，就不会爆炸吗？ Do you believe that if I don’t act on my attractions all the time that I won’t explode?
这是非常非常重要的。 Very, very important.
现在，我想提到另一件相关的事：我们要传达的一个非常重要的信息 ，能帮助我们应对所有这一切，包括同性恋议题，我们稍后会谈到。 Now, the other thing then that I want to mention in relation to all of this stuff is that there’s a very important message we’re teaching that will help us with all of these things here, including homosexuality, and we’ll get to that in a minute.
若望保禄二世有个非常重要的教导。 John Paul II has a very important teaching.
我先把这块板擦一下。 I’m going to erase this for just a moment.
他的教导帮了我很多忙，我认为我们做教会工作时需要更好地传递此讯息，因为 大多数人都像是在玩「天主教猜谜」：公教会是不是认为婚前性行为是错的？ That helped me out a lot, and I think that we need to do a better job of getting this message out as the Church because most people are like, if we’re doing Catholic Jeopardy up here, does the Catholic Church think it’s wrong to have sex outside of marriage?
是。 Yes.
公教会是否反对同性性行为？ Does the Catholic Church against homosexual sex?
是。 Yes.
公教会是不是很逊？ Is the Catholic Church really lame?
是。 Yes.
就这样列下去，我们都会知道答案。 Going down the list, we would know the answers to this.
人们都知道这些，却不知道为什么，而我们自己也不 了解这方面的内容。这在我高中时帮了我很多忙。 People know that, but they don’t know why, and we don’t know this part of it, and this helped me out a lot when I was in high school.
好，那时我在化学课，苏西坐在那儿，或者是米歇尔，不管是谁。 Okay, and I was in chemistry class, and Susie was there, or whoever, Michelle, or whatever.
你就坐在那里，老师在不停讲有效数字或者元素周期表里的第 一百四十二号元素，而你却想着：哎，那边有苏西，好多了。 And, okay, so you’re sitting there, and the teacher’s going on and on about, you know, significant digits or, you know, the 142nd element in the periodic table, and you’re like, oh, hey, there’s Susie—much better.
就这样，你心里对苏西感到一种吸引力。 And you’re there, and you experience an attraction to Susie.
然后你想：天啊，好吧，我是个好的公教小伙子，可我对苏西产生了欲望。 So then it’s like, oh my gosh, okay, I’m a good Catholic guy; I experience this attraction to Susie.
那我现在该怎么办？ Well, what am I going to do now?
老师还在前面对着周期表喋喋不休，而苏西就坐在那里。 The teacher’s still rambling at the front of the room about the periodic table, and Susie is there.
我当时以为，身为一个好的公教男生，就应该不要去想苏西，不要对她有任何想法。 The thing that I thought I was supposed to do in high school as a good Catholic guy was to not think about Susie, to not have the attraction.
我努力想做对的事，知道自己该等到结婚之后才行——所有这些，我不能想到苏西。 I’m trying to do the right thing; I know I’m supposed to wait until I’m married—all of these things—and I can’t think about Susie.
如果我想到苏西，我就犯罪了。 If I think about Susie, I’ve sinned.
只要有关于苏西的念头或画面浮现，我就会下地狱。 If any thoughts or images of Susie pop into my mind, I’m going to hell.
于是我就拼命想压制这种吸引或任何相关念头。 And so I would try to fight the attractions or whatever.
若望保禄二世提出了这个教导，其实不是他凭空想 出的；教会一直都有，只是过去没有人广泛宣讲。 John Paul II came along, and this is the teaching that—and he didn’t come up with it; the Church has had it; we just didn’t have somebody out there telling everyone about it.
这是非常重要的事情。 This is hugely important.
公教会对欲望的教导是：当下的欲望并不在我的掌控之中。 The Church teaches about attraction—that it is not in my control in the moment.
这是非常关键的。 That’s very important.
我无法在当下这一刻控制我的欲望。 I cannot control my attractions in this particular moment.
所以，如果我在化学课上突然冒出关于苏西的念头 ，如果那是种吸引，我并不是自愿选择它出现的。 So if I’m in chemistry class and a thought pops into my mind about Susie, I didn’t—if it’s an attraction, I didn’t choose it.
好吧？ Okay?
我没有去选择它。 I didn’t choose it.
问题是——这一点非常重要。 The problem—so that’s really important.
我无法在那一刻控制吸引力。 Attraction is not in my control at this moment.
当然，我的欲望在长远来看是可以被引导的，因为如果我是个年轻人，而 且我每小时都在看色情内容，那么我想到的画面就会受到这习惯的影响。 Now, my attractions can be shaped long-term because if I’m a young man and I’m looking at pornography every hour, okay, then my attractions—the things that pop into my mind are going to be affected by that.
所以我可以在日常生活里逐渐把我的欲望引导到更正面的事物上。 So I can slowly start to kind of steer my attractions to more positive things over time.
但如果我在化学课上，当下突然出现这个念头，我有做什么让这个念头出现吗？ But if I’m in chemistry class in that moment and a thought comes into my mind, did I do anything to make that happen?
没有。所以若望保禄二世说，我们无法当下控制这个，而且如果我努 力去消灭那种吸引，我们称之为压抑，而那确实会让你变得不正常。 No. So John Paul II is saying, look, we can’t control that, and in fact, if I try to not have an attraction, we call that something; we call it repression, and that does turn you into a psycho.
如果你强行压抑自己的欲望，你就会变得怪异、不健康，这不好。 If you repress, you try to repress your attractions, you will become weird, unhealthy, not good.
很多公教徒，尤其是想做对的事的人，以为要么就是像Disc overy频道里的哺乳动物一样放任欲望，要么就是压抑。 There are a lot of Catholics, especially ones who are trying to do the right thing, who think that it’s either mammals on the Discovery Channel or repression.
然后他们就想选压抑，于是努力去抵抗欲望。 Then I’ve got to choose repression, so they’re trying to fight against the attraction instead.
这是非常重要的。 And this is really important.
公教会真正的教导是这样的，而当我终于明白时，这 对我这个年轻人来说可真是好消息，让我受益匪浅。 What the Church teaches is this, and this was very good news for me because it helped me out a lot as a young person when I finally figured this out.
我真希望在高中时有人告诉我，但不管怎样，若望保禄二世和公教 会都在说，既然我无法控制当下的欲望，我也不能因此被定罪。 I wish somebody had told me when I was in high school, but nonetheless, John Paul II and the Church are out there saying, look, I can’t control the attraction, so you can’t be judged for it.
这就是我们所说的道德中立的欲望。 It’s what we call morally neutral attraction.
要是我没选择它出现，那我怎么会对它负责呢？ If I didn’t choose it, then how could I be held accountable for it?
你明白我的意思吗？ You see what I’m saying?
大家能理解吗？ Does everybody understand that?
这真的相当重要。 That’s really important.
因为我没主动选择这种吸引力，所以没人能因此而指责我，对吗？ The attraction that I experienced, I can’t be judged for that because it didn’t come from me choosing it, right?
我们能看明白吗？ Do we see that?
好吧？ Okay?
如果有人在楼上抢银行，结果钱掉到你腿上，你不会因此被逮捕。 If somebody’s robbing a bank upstairs and the money falls into your lap, you can’t be arrested for that.
你有选择那笔钱到你这儿吗？ Did you choose to have the money?
没有。是楼上那几个人做的，他们会被抓，对吧？ No. Now, the guys upstairs chose it; they can be arrested, right?
欲望本身在道德上是中立的，这是关键所在。 Attraction is morally neutral, and this is what’s key.
身为一个公教徒或任何人，我真正需要留意的时刻，不是在化学课 上有了那个念头的当下，而是当我意识到自己有了这个念头时。 The moment that I need to really pay attention to as a Catholic person or as any person is not when I have it in chemistry class, but when I become aware that I’m having it.
当我在化学课上，脑中突然出现和苏西一起在海滩散步的画面，好吧，那不是我的错。 When I’m in chemistry class and the thought pops into my mind about Susie and her and I taking a long stroll on the beach, okay, that’s not my fault.
那是自然而来的欲望；我没有选择它出现。 That was an attraction that came to me; I didn’t choose it.
我真正需要负责的是，我在意识到这个想法时，会选择如何处理它？ When I become held accountable, what I have to pay attention to is what do I do when I become aware in the moment that I’m having this thought?
我对这个念头会怎么做？ What do I do with that?
这才是关键问题。 That’s the question.
这就是我们必须留意的，因为到了这个时刻，我确实有了一个选择。 That’s what we have to pay attention to because this will determine—now when I get here, I do have a choice.
当我意识到自己对某人有吸引时，我就要做一个决 定，而在我意识到之前，可能已经过了几分钟。 When I become aware of experiencing an attraction, I now have a choice that I have to make, and this might go on for minutes before I’m aware of it.
好吧？ Okay?
可能是五秒，也可能是几分钟，我会像被从一个无聊的讲道中惊醒，突然想到某件事，却 没立即意识到自己正想什么，然后两分钟后才发现：「哇，我已经想了苏西三分钟了。」 It could go on for five seconds; it could go on for minutes before I’m actually like wake up out of, you know, it’s like a really boring homily, and all of a sudden you’ve been—something pops into your mind, and you’re not aware of what’s going on, and then like two minutes later you’re like, wow, I’ve been thinking about Susie for the last three minutes.
好吧？ Okay?
我要负责的是，当我意识到自己有欲望、有这些想法时，我会怎么处理？ What I am held accountable for is what do I do when I arrive at this spot where I’m now aware of my attraction and having this thought or whatever is popping into my mind?
我现在有了一个选择。 I now have a choice.
我能选择犯罪，我可以选择继续、有意地沉溺在这个意念里。 I can now choose sin; I can choose to keep intentionally choosing to have the thought.
我可以继续说：「你知道吗？ I can continue to say, you know what?
我不仅要和苏西一起在海边散步，还要和她生孩子。 I’m going to—not only are Susie and I going to be walking on the beach, but we’re going to have babies.
好吧？ Okay?
而且我要继续想下去。 And I’m going to think about that.
我在有意识地选择那种想法；这就叫做淫欲。 I’m choosing that thought; that is called lust.
所以，当我意识到自己的欲望时，我便处在某种决定点上 ，可以选择纵容淫欲继续想下去，也可以选择不犯罪。 So I can choose in the moment when I’m aware of an attraction, and I’ve had it, now I stand at a decision point somewhere down the line here, and I can choose to lust and keep thinking about it, or I can choose to not sin.
我可以选择贞洁，可以选择那样的生活方式。 I can choose chastity; I can choose to live that way.
我们称那叫做活出美德的生活。 We call that living a life of virtue.
我会说：「你知道吗？ I say, you know what?
我脑中有那个想法；我不会因此下地狱，但我现在要选择，并说：「你知道吗？ I had that thought in my mind; I’m not going to hell because of it, but now I’m going to choose to say, you know what?
这个念头是自然而来，我没选它，现在我要把它放下。 I had that thought, and I didn’t choose it, and now I’m going to kind of walk away from that.
我要转离刚才的想象，把注意力重新放回到化学课上，即使这很难。 I’m going to walk away from that thought that I was having, and I’m going to focus back in on chemistry, as hard as that is.
好吧？ Okay?
对这部分有任何问题吗？ Any questions on that?
因为我们刚才谈的就是关键所在。 Because that is really key what we’ve just been talking about.
而且我们提前开始，所以还有一点时间。 And we have some extra time because we started early.
有没有什么想法或评论？ Any thoughts or comments on any of that?
有什么不清楚的吗？ Anything that wasn’t clear?
好的，没问题。 Okay, all right.
那么，我们就再花几分钟来谈谈同性恋在这一切中所处的位置。 So we have then a few minutes at the end here to talk about how homosexuality fits into all of this.
好吧？ Okay?
祝福你。 Bless you.
其中一件事是——我正在录制这堂课或说这段简短的内容，让任何想看的人都能观看。 One of the things—I’m taping this class or this little presentation so that anybody that wants to watch it is able to do that.
我平时也会录制我的讲道或其他事情，不是因为我觉得自己很厉害，而是有人会看。 I do that with my homilies and anything else I do, not because I think I’m like, oh, I’m really good, but because people watch it.
只要放到网络上，神奇的是总有人会看。 If you put it out on the internet, it’s amazing; somebody will watch it.
即便是新加坡那个讨厌公教会的人，也会看。 Somebody in Singapore who hates Catholicism will still watch.
总之，这很容易做到，而且不花钱，所以就这样放着。 So anyways, it’s really easy to do; it’s for free, so it’s there.
我在上这方面的课时，用了四堂课来讨论。 Teaching this issue, I did this over four classes.
我在Ritter的第一年，我刚成为祭司，那年我教到同性恋议题。 Well, the first year I taught it at Ritter, my very first year as a priest, I taught this issue of homosexuality came up.
当时我教的是毕业班，我想：「好，这些学生都很聪明，他们会想要知道真相。 I’m teaching seniors, and I’m thinking, like, going into that year, I’m like, okay, these seniors are sharp; they’re going to want to know the truth.
他们即将进入现实社会，肯定会在避孕这类议题上反驳教会，包括避孕 药和保险套的相关教导，也会在独身、堕胎等等问题上和我激烈辩论。 They’re getting ready to have it in the real world; they’re going to really fight back on contraception, what the Church teaches on birth control pills and condoms and all those things, and they’re really going to fight me hard on, you know, celibacy and abortion and all these other things.
我记得我在上课前做了充分准备，带了资料发给他们，结果他们都说：「好啊，有 道理，听起来不赖，对，避孕与自然规划，听起来很合理。」所以我当时的心情是 ，原本还想好好辩一场——并不是要打架，而是准备他们会上来激辩，对吗？ And I remember presenting and teaching that, and I was all ready, and I had all my handouts, and they were like, fine, makes sense, sounds good, yep, contraception, NFP, right on, sounds very—so I’m like, I was almost like ready for a fight—like not like punching fight, but like I was ready for them to like storm the front, right?
结果并没有人来辩。 And that never happened.
然后到了学年末提到同性恋，我记得那次课，我也稍微做了准备。 Then we get to homosexuality towards the very end of the year, and I remember teaching that, and I kind of prepared for it.
但那天，我教的每个班，每个人都对公教会表现出愤怒、气愤，甚至仇恨。 There was rage, anger, hatred at the Church from every single person in every class that I taught that day.
「公教会很偏执；公教会什么都不知道；公教会落后 两千年；公教会还停留在中世纪；公教会仇恨人。」 The Church is bigoted; the Church doesn’t know anything; the Church is 2000 years behind; the Church was stuck in the Middle Ages; the Church hates people.
真是让人难以置信。 It was unbelievable.
我没办法——他们问了许多我并没有准备的问题。 I had no—they were asking questions that I hadn’t prepared.
真是一大堆问题，我完全被打了个措手不及。但我还挺高兴的— —我的意思是，我不怪他们，只是我没准备好，那是我的问题。 You know, there was just all of this stuff, and I was just totally caught off guard by it, and I’m glad—I mean, I’m not mad at them for that; it was just I wasn’t ready; that was my fault.
接着下一年，我又来教这门课。 So the next year I come along, and I teach this again.
我心想：「好，开始吧！」 I’m like, all right, here we go.
于是我真的做了很多研究，对我而言很有帮助，因为 读了六年修院后，我还不完全清楚教会的具体教导。 I’m going to really—so I did a lot of research, and it was really good for me because I didn’t know after six years of seminary what exactly the Church said.
我只知道一点，但还不够，也无法系统地教。 I knew some of the stuff; I didn’t really know; I couldn’t teach it.
所以我花了十个小时精心准备了这两三堂课的内容，因为我想给他们答案。 And so I bet I put ten hours of work into getting these two or three classes ready because I wanted to give them the answers.
我像往常一样录了视频，然后放到我的博客上，我常常上传课程到那里。 And so I filmed them like I do all of my classes, and I put them online on my blog where I always put my classes.
我记得那天，我上完最后一堂课，正好是春假，我就和我的神父朋友 梅耶一起坐飞机到罗马，吃意大利面、去圣彼得大殿，一切都很棒。 And I remember that day I finished my last one, and it was spring break, so me and my priest friend, Father Meyer, we get on a plane and we fly to Rome, and we’re eating pasta and going to St. Peter’s, and it’s awesome.
然后我们到那里的第四天，正住在一间修院，一个 朋友过来对我说：「老兄，你现在到处都是。" Well, like the fourth day we’re there, a friend of mine—we were staying at a seminary—and a friend of mine comes in and is like, dude, you are everywhere.
我问：「你在说什么？」 I go, what are you talking about?
他说：「你不知道发生了什么吗？」 He’s like, you don’t know what happened?
我说：「不知道啊，我一直在吃意大利面。」 I’m like, no, I’ve been eating pasta.
「发生了什么事？」 What happened?
他说：「来我房间看看。」 He’s like, come up to my room.
于是我们去了他房间，然后上网查看。 So we went up to his room, and we got online.
我的照片——我教学的视频出现在大约一百个网站上，很多网站上还在我的脸上P出犄角。 My picture—the video of me teaching was on about 100 websites, a lot of them with my face with horns coming out of it.
「看穿着袍子的祭司如何扭曲年轻人的思想。 “Watch priest in a dress warp the minds of young people.
「看祭司如何满口仇恨言论。」 Watch priests with hate speech.”
Ritter的电子邮件账号和服务器都被关闭了，因为我们收到了大量仇恨邮件。 Ritter’s email accounts and server got shut down because we got so much hate mail.
我的博客和YouTube视频各有大约一千条评论。 The blog and my YouTube video had about a thousand comments on each one.
我登录博客后，看见：「哦，天啊！」 I log onto my blog; I’m like, oh my gosh.
有上千条评论等着我去回复。 You know, there’s like a thousand comments waiting for me to respond to them.
我心想：「好吧，那放假就来处理这些吧。」 You know, I’m like, oh, okay, yeah, let’s start with that on vacation.
其实大部分留言并不是想要答案，他们只是骂我偏执、仇恨、诸如此类。 Most of them really weren’t wanting an answer anyways; they were just like, you bigoted, you hate, you know, just whatever.
就是——你知道，同时看到自己在全国各个博客上出现，真的会感到有点不知所措。 It was just—but it was really kind of overwhelming at the same time, you know, to kind of see yourself all over the country on these blogs.
就好像，这是一次非常特别的经历。 Like, it was really an interesting experience.
社会上对公教会在这项教导上有许多仇恨，而且只会越来越明显。 There is a lot of hatred towards the Church about this teaching, and this is only getting—it’s only going to come more to the front as we go forward.
好吧？ Okay?
我和我的一个朋友正在——呃，我们正在努力筹集一笔资金，我们有一个项 目，想筹集七万美元拍一部二十分钟的纪录片，深入探讨这些议题，以及公 教会对这些问题的立场和原因，希望在短时间内以优美的方式、搭配一些好 音乐与有趣的元素来呈现，因为公教会在这方面的讯息传播做得并不好。 A friend of mine and I are actually—we just, uh, we’re working actually to raise—we have a project; we’re trying to raise seventy thousand dollars to do a documentary, a twenty-minute documentary that really dives into all of this, what the Church says about this and why, in a short amount of time, in a beautiful way with some good music, some interesting things like that, because the Church is not doing a good job of getting its message out about this.
没有人会去读梵蒂冈的文件。 No one’s going to read a Vatican document.
好吧？ Okay?
我自己也不喜欢读梵蒂冈的文件。 I don’t like reading Vatican documents.
那些文件内容很好，也很棒，也能让我更亲近神，可是前 十段常常都是没人懂的神学用词，这并不能单纯怪他们。 They’re good; they’re great; they draw me closer to God, but the first ten paragraphs are always like just theology words that no one understands, and that’s not their fault.
我们身为公教徒，得更努力把这些内容用人们能理解的方式呈现出来。 We have to do a better job as Catholics of taking that and presenting it to people in a way that they understand.
所以我们现在就在尝试这么做。 So we’re trying to do that.
我相信，这会成为我们这一代人的关键议题。 I believe that this will become the issue of our generation.
你需要知道公教会在这方面的教导，因为如果你不知道，你就会受到攻击。 You need to know what the Church says on this because if you don’t, you will be attacked.
即使你知道，你也仍然会被攻击。但当你上大学，在哲学课、神学课、演讲课、经 济课或其他任何课时——几乎所有人都会针对你，这时你最好已经准备好答案。 And even if you do, you’re going to be attacked, but you better have the answer ready when you go to college and you’re in a philosophy class or you’re in a theology class or you’re in a speech class or you’re in an economics class or whatever—basically probably about everybody.
我并不是想要你多疑，但你大学里遇到的多数人，尤其是老师，大多都认 定公教会在这件事上是错的，而且他们也不了解公教会真正教导什么。 I’m not trying to make you paranoid, but about everybody in your college experience, especially teachers, already has decided that the Church is wrong on this, and they don’t know what the Church teaches.
但大多数公教徒进入那种环境时，自己也不了解公教会的教导。 But most Catholics go into those situations, and they don’t know what the Church teaches either.
他们以为自己知道，但其实并不了解，因为这问题相当复杂。 They think they know, but they don’t because it’s a complicated thing.
所以我想花一点时间——我们还剩多少时间？ So I want to spend—how much time do we have?
十五分钟？ Fifteen minutes?
我们会提早结束。 We’ll end early.
好，不用担心；我不会花满十五分钟。 Okay, don’t worry; I’m not going to take fifteen minutes.
这跟我们一直以来的讨论有关，所以当我们在谈同性恋 以及公教会的教导时，这是很自然能衔接讨论的话题。 This fits into the discussion we’ve already been having, and so it’s a really easy substitute to talk about this when we’re talking about homosexuality and what the Church teaches.
我在修院念了六年，只知道公教会说：欲望本身 没问题，可以有吸引，但我不能去付诸行动。 All I knew after six years of seminary was that the Church said it’s okay; attraction is okay, but I can’t act on it.
我当时只知道这些。 That’s all I knew.
那么，为什么呢？ Now, why?
为什么公教会会这么说？ Why does the Church say that?
公教会站在这一边——把这个说法摆进来——其实核心还是相同的。 The Church comes over here—put this word in there—and it’s still all the same.
对同性的吸引力在当下这一刻并不由我控制。 Homosexual attraction is not in my control at this moment.
我们都明白这点。 We all know that.
好吧？ Okay?
我们都知道这一点。 We all know that.
所以，这才让我们觉得很难处理。 And so that’s what gives us a hard time.
我们会想：我认识一些人正为此挣扎，我知道他们并不是在假装。 We’re like, I know people that struggle with this; I know they’re not making it up.
好吧？ Okay?
于是公教会说：看，这只是一种吸引。 And so the Church says, look, this is just a type of attraction.
如果我在化学课上对象是苏西，那么如果换成比尔也是类似道理。 If I’m in chemistry class and it’s Susie, well, the same things apply if it’s Bill.
好吧？ Okay?
同性吸引只是某种吸引而已，而且很有意思。 Homosexual attraction is a type of attraction, and it’s interesting.
我们在这里要指出一件事——让我们快速来看一下。 One thing we want to point out here is this—come over here really quickly.
也就是说，如果我们看看社会对这议题的看法，基本存在两个声 音很大的阵营，但我们并不属于任何一个，这也是问题所在。 This is—if we look at what society—there are two basically really loud camps on this issue, and we’re neither, and that’s part of the problem.
我们有时会以为自己在其中一个阵营里，但其实并不是。 We think we are in one of them, but we’re not.
所谓的宗教右派，如果你们明白我指的是什么，就是那些福音派教会。 The religious right, so to speak, if you know what I’m talking about there, we’re talking about the evangelical churches.
大部分人都知道，比如浸信会——很多非公教的基督教派都会高声主张，同性吸引就是罪。 Most of you know, like Baptist Church—a lot of those Christian denominations who are not Catholic are out there yelling very loudly that homosexual attraction is a sin.
对他人有同性吸引，本身就是罪。 To have an attraction in a homosexual way towards another person is a sin.
这就是公教会的教导吗？ Is that what the Church teaches?
不是的。公教会说：在那一刻，比尔并没有主动选择对戴夫产生吸引或对戴夫有感觉。 No. The Church says in that moment Bill is not choosing to be attracted to Dave or have an attraction towards Dave.
好吧？ Okay?
现在社会上另一种有趣的声音，来自多数教授、娱乐产业、电影与电视节目，你看过的 那些「The New Normal」、还有「Modern Family」。 Now, the other interesting message that’s out there is from most of your professors that you’ll have in the entertainment industry, in the movies and TV that you watch—the new normal, Modern Family.
好吧？ Okay?
他们在宣扬——那一派是极左派，对吧？ They’re out there saying—that’s the far left, right?
他们大声主张，不仅同性吸引不是罪，同性性行为也不是罪。 They’re out there very loudly saying not only is homosexual attraction not a sin; homosexual sex is not a sin.
这就是当下的两个主要论调。 These are the two messages that are out there.
一边说同性吸引是罪，同性性行为也是罪，统统是罪。 You have one side saying homosexual attraction is a sin, and so is homosexual sex; it’s all a sin.
另一边的人则说同性吸引不是罪，同性性行为也不是罪。 You have people over here saying homosexual attraction is not a sin, and neither is homosexual sex.
事实上，在这一边的人大多会觉得：「罪是什么？」 In fact, most people over here are like, what’s a sin anyways?
他们甚至不认为有罪这种东西。 There is no such thing as a sin in the first place.
但无论如何，公教会在这两者之间走中间路线。 But regardless, the Church comes in the middle between those two.
教会并不属于任何一个阵营。 They’re in neither camp.
我们并不在那个福音派阵营里；我们不认为光有欲望本身就是罪。 We’re not in the evangelical camp; we don’t think that just having an attraction is a sin.
公教会处在中间位置，但很多公教徒并不知道这一点。 The Church is right here in the middle, but not many Catholics know that.
有人会把你跟那些基督徒混为一谈，说：「喔，你就是那些基督教里的一员。 People will try to clump you in with, oh, you’re one of those Christian people.
对啊，你就是那边抗议的那些人，你觉得我们都是罪人，觉得我们都会下地狱。 Yeah, you’re over there, and you’re just protesting, and you think we’re all sinners, and we’re all going to hell.
不，完全不是那么回事。 No, that’s not it at all.
实际上，我们和他们非常不同。 Actually, we’re actually a lot different than that.
我们所相信的，其实就是心理学入门的概念。有趣的是，这 并不是教会只靠《公教会教理》之类的文献来证明这点。 We believe what is actually—this is psychology 101. The interesting thing about it—this is not like the Church saying the Catechism is the only place to find this.
这是良好、稳定、健康的心理学内容。 This is good, solid, healthy psychology.
并不是你必须因为我说了就去相信。 It’s not like you’re just having to believe this because I tell you.
心理学家会告诉你，欲望在此刻并不受你控制，但你可以决定要怎么处理它。 Psychologists will tell you that an attraction is not something in my control at this moment, but I can decide what I want to do with it.
好吧？ Okay?
所以，公教会——我曾让所有的学生读过一篇非常有意思的文章。 So the Church—there’s a really interesting essay that I had all my students read.
这是一个公教徒，正为同性吸引而挣扎，或者说「一直和同性吸 引共处」——这样形容更好。他在文章里谈到自己如何成长。 It’s a person who is Catholic who struggles with or lives with—probably the better word—lives with same-sex attraction, and he talks in this essay about how he grew up.
他后来真正加入了公教会；他原本在有同性吸引的情况下并不是公教徒。 He actually joined the Church; he wasn’t a Catholic as a person with same-sex attraction.
这个「疯狂」的人竟然加入了公教会。 This psycho guy joins the Catholic Church.
我们几乎从没听说过这种事。 Now, we never hear about that.
我们也几乎没听过一个有同性吸引的人会加入公教 会，因为所有人都会想：「你到底怎么想的？」 We never hear about a person that has same-sex attraction in their life joining the Catholic Church because everyone would be like, what are you smoking?
「你不知道他们恨你吗？」 Don’t you know they hate you?
「他们想把你绑在火刑柱上烧死吗？」 They want to burn you at the stake?
他们就会说：「对啊，像抓女巫一样，噢，你懂吗？」 They’re like, yeah, witch hunter, ooh, you know?
「你要加入公教会？」 You’re joining the Catholic Church?
「你一定是在开玩笑吧！」 You’ve got to be kidding me.
你知道他在文章里解释为什么吗？ You know why he says in his essay?
这篇文章很短，也写得非常好。 It’s really short, really well written.
他说：「我加入公教会，是因为只有他们在跟我对话时，真正在说明我的处境。」 He says, I joined the Catholic Church because they’re the only ones that are talking to me in a way that describes me.
他在这里找不到定罪，却找到了希望。 He finds not judgment; he finds hope.
这个人谈到，他从公教会给予他的讯息中找到希望，帮助他理解自己在生活中经历的一切。 This guy is talking about how he finds hope in the message of the Church talking to him about what he’s experiencing in his life.
还有另一篇文章，也是我让他读的，内容是一位年轻女性写的，谈到同样的感受。 There’s also another essay that I had him read by a young lady that says the same thing.
我们正在尝试把他们俩都邀请到我们那部小视频里。 We’re trying to get both of them for our little video.
要是能请到他们加入，影响会很大，那将非常棒。 It should be huge to get them in there; that would be awesome.
不过，真正研究这议题、亲身经历同性吸引的人，很多 时候会告诉你，他们从公教会那里得到了许多希望。 But people who actually study the issue and look at it and are living same-sex attraction will tell you a lot of times I find a great deal of the hope from the Church.
很有意思的是；即使当时在我的博客上也有人留言——好，其中有一个 人，我记不得他的名字了，但他说：「你很蠢，你很笨，等等等等。」 And it was interesting; even there were some people who were commenting on my blog in the middle of the—okay, one guy, I remember—I don’t remember his name, but he was like, you know, you’re stupid, you’re dumb, blah, blah, blah.
但是后来他又发了一条帖子，对其他所有人说：「嘿，你们知道吗？」 But then he had this other post where he comes on and he says to all the other people, he goes, hey, you know what?
「他讲的东西听起来疯狂，但我们应该和这些人对话，因为他们 并没有——」这个人在告诉那些厌恶我、厌恶我的讯息的人， What he’s saying is crazy, but we should be talking to guys like this because they’re not—he’s telling all the other people who are hating what I was saying and hating me and the message.
他说：「你看，我们也许厌恶他，但他并不属于那种极端的立场。」 He’s saying, look, we might hate him, but he’s not there.
「公教会并不是那种极端，而我们应该去接触。」 The Church is not there, and we ought to be.
他们说，在公教会里找到的东西其实有点不一样，以某种方式来说，是另一个不同的讯息。 They’re saying what they find in the Catholic Church is actually a little bit different—in a way, a different message.
如果你希望这一年之后仍想当公教徒，你得能在三十秒内把这点表达清楚。 You have to be able to articulate that in 30 seconds if you’re going to hope to be Catholic after this year.
好吧？ Okay?
不管你到公立学校，或去上大学，不管身在何处。 You’re going to a public school, or you go off to college, wherever you’re at.
如果你连花一分钟也无法向别人清晰说明，而且自己都拿不准，那你就完了。 If you can’t articulate that in a minute to somebody and you’re not sure of it, you’re done.
我们或许得等到你四十岁时才能再见，好吗？ We’ll see you maybe when you’re 40. Okay?
这就是关键，而且确实适用，并不是说公教会有一大堆关于性与欲望的教导。 This is the issue, and it applies, and it really is—it’s not like we have—the Church has all of these teachings on sexuality and attraction.
也不是说：「噢，你想知道同性恋？ It’s not like we say, oh, you want to know about homosexuality?
那我们就带你到一个小小的秘密房间里，那里有专门谈同性恋的文件。」 Well, let’s come over here to our little secret room where we have documents on homosexuality.
不，公教会说，其实这和其他的情况都是相同的原理。 No, the Church is like, it’s all the same.
讲的都是一样的道理，所有的议题都在相同的脉络里。 It’s the same story; it all fits in the same arc.
我不会因为没有顺着欲望便爆炸。 I do not explode because I don’t act on an attraction.
这并不代表我不健康，也不会让我变得奇怪，更不会变成怪胎。 It doesn’t mean I’m unhealthy; it doesn’t make me weird; it doesn’t make me creepy.
好吧？ Okay?
不论我此刻的欲望是什么，从长远来看，如果我选择某 些生活方式，能不能在某种程度上影响我的欲望走向？ Whatever my attractions are now, long-term, can I help steer them in different directions if I live certain ways?
是的，是可以的。 Yeah, yeah.
但欲望本身不在我的即时掌控之中；它在道德上是中立的。 But my attraction is not in my control; it’s morally neutral.
我必须决定的是，当我意识到自己有这种欲望时， 该如何处理。这基本上就是公教会要我们思考的。 What I have to decide is what will I do with it once I experience it, and that really is basically what the Church is asking us to think about.
有什么疑问吗？ Questions?
有什么想要评论的吗？ Comments?
好的，女士。 Yes, ma’am.
每学年开学时，我都会向我的毕业班学生推荐一本书，若他们想要，我会帮他们买。 There’s a book that I would always offer at the beginning of the year to buy all my seniors, any of them that wanted a copy of it.
这本书非常好，它是一系列很短的文章合集。 It’s amazing; it’s a book of essays that are really short.
那些文章都是一些和我们年纪相仿的年轻公教徒写的。 They’re all written by young Catholics about our age.
书名是《Faith at the Edge》。 It’s called Faith at the Edge.
里面什么话题都有。 It’s got everything in there.
其中有两篇文章讨论了公教会中的同性恋议题，是由有同性吸引的人撰写的。 Two of the essays are about homosexuality in the Church, written by people who live with same-sex attraction.
里面也提到与毒品、堕胎，以及许多有关守斋等正面事物的讨论。 There’s stuff in there about drugs and abortion and a lot of the other positive things about fasting.
这是一本非常适合青年牧灵工作者或任何人的好书。 It’s really well done for youth ministers or anybody.
那些最终拿到我送的这本书的学生，通常都会觉得：「嘿，这书真棒。」 All the kids that ended up getting a copy from me were always really like, hey, this is awesome.
所以，对，就是《Faith at the Edge》。 So, yeah, Faith at the Edge.
对啊。 Yep.
如果你想留下来，如果你还有什么问题想要问，我知道这里有点热。 If you want to stick around, if you have any questions that you’d like to ask after this, I know it’s kind of hot in here.
我们还剩五分钟，不过这里确实有点闷热。 We still have five minutes, but it’s kind of toasty.