大家好，欢迎收听公教答疑播客Focus，这 里我们探讨如何生活、理解和捍卫公教信仰。 Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith.
我是主持人Cy Kellett，今天Carlo Broussard和我们一起来谈谈被提的话题。 I'm Cy Kellett, your host, and Carlo Broussard is here with us to talk about the Rapture.
这是不是一件你应该期待、努力追求或担心的事呢？ Is it something you should be anticipating, working towards, or worried about?
事实上，以上都不是。Carlo将为我们解释这个十九世纪在美国发明的教义是 如何被许多公教徒误认为是信仰的一部分的，但实际上它并不是信仰的组成部分。 As a matter of fact, none of the above, and Carlo will explain how this 19th-century teaching, invented here in America, came to be seen by many Catholics as part of the faith, but it is not part of the faith.
不过，公教会关于末世的教导确实非常好，你一定也想听听Carlo对此的见解。 The Catholic teaching on the end times, however, is really, really good, and you'll want to get some insights into that from Carlo as well.
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我本想做个特效，让我突然消失，就好像我被提了一样，但我想我们可能做不到。 I wanted to do a special effect, but I don't think we can do a special effect where I just disappear right now so that it would seem like I got raptured.
不管怎样，让我们听听Carlo谈谈被提的话题。 But in any case, here's Carlo on the Rapture.
Carlo，我先告诉你为什么我不喜欢谈论被提，因为有太多像 「大灾难后」这样的词，我不知道，这些词对我来说太混乱了。 I'm just going to tell you, Carlo, first why I don't like talking about the Rapture, because there are all these words like post-tribulation, and I don't know, like the words get so confusing to me.
所以你得帮帮我。 So you're going to have to help me.
首先，你会担心被提发生时自己被留下来吗？ First, are you at all worried about being left behind when the Rapture happens?
我一点也不担心被留下来，因为我希望被留下来。 I am not worried about being left behind because I desire to be left behind.
好吧，你得解释一下这是为什么。 Okay, you got to explain that.
太好了，很好，很好。 Great, very good, very good.
好吧，在解释这个之前，也许我们应该先说清楚我们到底在讨论什么。 Well, before we explain that, maybe it's important to articulate what we're talking about here.
我们在讨论被提。 We're talking about the Rapture.
关于被提有很多不同的观点，对吧？ So there are a variety of different positions on the Rapture, right?
在我们与新教徒家人和朋友的日常交谈中最常见的是所谓的灾前被提前千禧年论。 The most common that we encounter in our daily conversations with our Protestant family members and friends is what is known as the pre-tribulational pre-millennialism Rapture.
这正是我最喜欢说的。 That's my favorite right there.
是的，这基本上是来自约翰·纳尔逊·达比，对吧？ Yeah, and basically, this is coming from John Nelson Darby, right?
大约从1833年开始，这位英裔爱尔兰圣经教师 是早期普利茅斯弟兄会中最有影响力的人物之一。 Starting about 1833, he was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren.
这种说法认为，基督的信徒们会被提走，从地上被带到空中与基督相遇，基 督会部分下降来接走义人，这一切都发生在末世七年大灾难之前，对吧？ But the idea is that believers in Jesus Christ will be snatched away, taken from the earth into the air with Christ, kind of partially coming down to take the righteous with Him before the great seven-year tribulation at the end of time, right?
这就是为什么它被称为灾前论。 And so that's why it's referred to as the pre-tribulational view.
在七年大灾难之后，他们认为会有一个字面意义上的一千年统治。 Subsequently, after the seven-year tribulation, there's the view that there will be a literal 1,000-year reign.
因此，这就是所谓的灾前前千禧年论。 Therefore, you have pre-tribulational premillennialism.
哦，我明白了。 Oh, I see.
是的，千禧年，对吧？ Yeah, the millennium, right?
这与其他类型的前千禧年论不同，无论是灾前、灾中还是灾后前千禧年论。 And this is distinguished from other types of premillennialism, whether it's pre-trib, you know, from mid-trib or post-trib premillennialism.
但还有后千禧年论这样的观点，对吧？ But then you also have views such as post-millennialism, right?
还有非千禧年论，这更接近公教会的观点，也是与我们东正教弟兄姐妹共同持有的观点。 And then you also have amillennialism, which is more of the Catholic view in association with our Orthodox brothers and sisters as well.
但我们这里要关注的，就是当你和新教徒朋友或邻居谈 论被提时通常指的那种观点，也就是灾前前千禧年论。 But what we're focusing on here, what is commonly referred to as the Rapture when you're just talking to your Protestant friend, your neighbor, or something, is the pre-tribulational premillennialism view.
现在，「被提」这个词很有趣，它来自拉丁文武加大译 本中的rapiemur，意思是「我们被提上去」。 Now, the word Rapture comes—this is interesting—the word Rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate's word rapiemur, which means we're caught up.
这实际上是翻译自帖撒罗尼迦前书四章17节中的希腊文harpageso metha，这是我们在本期Focus节目中要讨论的两段圣经章节之一。 This actually translates the Greek word harpagesometha in 1 Thessalonians 4, verse 17, one of the two Bible passages that we'll be considering in this Focus episode.
这是他们常引用的两段圣经章节之一。 One of the two Bible passages that they'll appeal to.
有趣的是，他们谈论被提时用的词竟然来自拉丁文武加大译本。 But what's interesting is that they're referring to the Rapture, and that's coming from the Latin Vulgate.
他们在这里用的是公教的用语——这里有点讽刺意味。 They're using Catholic language here—a little bit of irony there.
是的，没错，没错。 Yeah, right, right.
这个词在英王钦定本里可没有，是吧？ That's not in the King James Version, huh?
嗯，这是拉丁文rapiemur，但它是在翻译那个希腊词。 Well, it's the Latin rapiemur, but it's translating the Greek word there.
这来自帖撒罗尼迦前书四章17节。另一个经常被引用的经文 是马太福音二十四章37-40节，或者它的平行经文路加福 音十七章24-37节。这就是他们「被撇下」说法的来源。 And so that's coming from 1 Thessalonians 4, verse 17. The other Bible passage that's often appealed to is Matthew 24, verses 37-40, or its parallel passage, Luke 17, verses 24-37. And that's where they get the left behind.
我明白了。 I see.
明白了。 Gotcha.
好，那我们就从马太福音开始。 Okay, so we'll start with Matthew then.
你是说这段经文被用来证明灾前前千禧年论和被提的观点？ And you're saying this is the passage that's used to justify this pre-tribulational premillennialism and the idea of the Rapture?
是的，好的。 Yeah, okay.
这是耶稣说的话：「挪亚的日子怎样，人子降临也要怎样。」 So here's what Jesus says: As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
「当洪水以前的日子，人照常吃喝嫁娶，直到挪亚进方舟的那日 ，不知不觉洪水来了，把他们全都冲去。人子降临也要这样。」 For as in those days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they didn't know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
那时，两个人在田里，取去一个，撇下一个。 Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
两个女人在磨坊推磨，取去一个，撇下一个。 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
这就是「被撇下」这个说法的来源。 And this is where the left behind comes from.
你想被撇下吗？ Do you want to be left behind?
是的，但挪亚的这部分内容真的很重要。 Yeah, but the Noah part is really important to this.
我刚刚意识到。 I just realized.
是的，我们马上就要谈到这个。 Yeah, we're going to get there.
所以要警醒—其实我没有把这段写在笔记里，但你说到了 —所以要警醒，因为你们不知道你们的主是哪一天来到。 Watch, therefore—actually, I didn't put this one in the notes, but you got it—watch, therefore, Jesus says, For you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
现在有趣的是：路加在他的版本中加了一段，就是路加福音十七章37节。在马太 所记载的这些之后，路加添加了这样一段：他们问他说：「主啊，在哪里呢？」 Now here's what's interesting: there's an added bit by Luke in his version, Luke chapter 17, verse 37. Subsequent to everything Matthew is recording here, Luke adds this bit: And they said to Him, 'Where, Lord?'
耶稣对他们说：「尸首在哪里，鹰也必聚在那里。」 And He said to them, 'Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered.'
明白吗？ All right?
是的，这就是许多新教徒用来为他们的灾前被提观点辩护或支持的经文。 Yeah, so that's the text that many Protestants will appeal to in order to defend or support their pre-tribulation rapturous view.
对。 Right.
所以问题来了：首先要注意，我们的新教朋友们把那些被取去的人认定为义人。 So here's the question: notice, first of all, that our Protestant friends are identifying those who are being taken away as the righteous ones.
没错，就是把他们当作信徒。 Exactly, as the believers.
是的，而那些被撇下的就是不信的人，不义的人，他们 将不得不经历最后的邪恶冲击，就是大灾难，对吧？ Yeah, and the ones left behind are the unbelievers, the unrighteous, who are going to have to experience the final push of evil, the tribulation, right?
但如果仔细阅读，我认为—很多人也这么认为—实 际上那些被取去的是恶人，而义人才是被留下的。 But if you read it closely, I argue—and many others do—that actually those who are being taken away are the wicked ones, and the righteous are the ones left behind.
现在，当经文把人子降临比作挪亚的日子时，你已经注意到了其中的细节。 Now, you already picked up a detail in there when it compared the coming of the Son of Man to the days of Noah.
谁是被冲去的人？ Who were the ones who were wiped away?
经上说洪水来了，把他们全都冲去。 It says the flood came and swept them all away.
被冲走的是谁？ Who were the ones that were swept away?
挪亚吗？ Noah?
是恶人。 The wicked ones.
谁被留下来了？ Who was left behind?
是的，好人。 Yeah, the good.
好人—挪亚和他的家人。 The good—Noah and his family.
这是一种方法，一条途径，可以用来说明被取去的是恶人，被留下的是义人。 So that's one way, one route you can take in order to show that the ones being taken are the wicked and the ones being left behind are the righteous.
但是Cy，还有另一种解释方法，我必须承认这是多年前从我的同事和好朋友Ti m Staples那里听来的，当时他在讲被提的话题，这个解释很有道理。 But here's another way that we can do it, Cy, and I must admit I got this from my colleague and good friend here, Tim Staples, many years ago, hearing him give a talk on the Rapture, and it makes a lot of sense.
想想看：想想使徒们听到耶稣说'两个人在田里，取去一个，撇下一个'时问的问题。 So consider this: consider the question that the apostles ask in response to Jesus saying, Two in the field; one taken, one left.
两个女人在磨坊推磨，取去一个，撇下一个。 Two women grinding at the mill; one taken, the other left.
路加记载使徒们回应说：'主啊，在哪里呢？' Luke records the apostles asking in response to that, Where, Lord?
这个'在哪里'的问题不可能是指那些被撇下的人，因为他 们已经知道被撇下在哪里—他们被撇在田里，被撇在磨坊。 Now that question of where cannot be referring to those who are left behind because they already know where they're left behind—they're left in the field, they're left grinding at the mill.
所以'主啊，在哪里呢？'这个问题 So the question of Where, Lord?
一定是指那些被取去的人，对吧？ must refer to those who are being taken away, right?
是的。 Yes.
那么耶稣是如何回答'主啊，他们被带到哪里去'这个问题的呢？ And so what does Jesus answer to the question, Where are they being taken away, Lord?
他并没有说什么天堂、荣耀和街道用珍珠铺就的美丽城市。 It's not like heaven and glory and a beautiful city with streets made of pearl—that's not what He says.
如果被提的观点是对的，耶稣就会这样说。 If the Rapture's view were correct, that's what Jesus would have said.
是的，没错。 Yeah, right.
让我们看看耶稣说了什么。 But let's see what Jesus says.
耶稣回答说：'尸首在哪里，鹰也必聚在那里。' Jesus responds and says, Where the body is, there will the eagles gather.
现在，如果被提的观点是对的，这必须是指天堂，对吧？ Now, for the Rapture's view to be correct, this must refer to heaven, right?
对。 Right.
这种解释有一定根据，因为鹰—这里用的希腊词是aetos，是etos的复数 —可能有积极的含义，也许是因为启示录四至七章提到四活物之一像鹰，对吧？ And there's some warrant to this view because eagles—the Greek word for eagles, aetos, that's the plural of etos spoken of here—could be seen in a positive sense, perhaps because Revelation 4-7 speaks of one of the four living creatures as an eagle, right?
那里用的也是同样的希腊词，aetos。 The same Greek word there, aetos.
所以aetos可能是以积极的意义指鹰，比如在 天空高飞，也许这就是耶稣所指的，就是天堂。 So aetos could refer to an eagle in the positive sense, like soaring high in the sky, and maybe that's what Jesus is referring to, and that's heaven.
但实际上，这不是耶稣所指的。 Well, actually, this is not what Jesus is referring to.
Aetos可以指鹰，但也可以指秃鹫。 Aetos can mean like eagle, but it can also mean vulture.
它通常指食腐鸟类，就是吃死动物腐肉的鸟，对吧？ It generally refers to a carrion-eating bird, like a bird that eats the decaying flesh of dead animals, right?
比如鹰或秃鹫—这是这个词的一般含义。 Like an eagle or a vulture—that's the general sense of the term.
我认为这才是耶稣在这里要强调的含义。 And I argue that this is the meaning that Jesus intends to emphasize here.
他要强调的是吃肉这一方面，因为他说'尸首在哪里，鹰也必聚在那里。' He intends to emphasize the flesh-eating aspect because He says, Where the body is, there will the eagles gather.
换句话说，尸体会被留给这些鹰—这些秃鹫，这些食腐鸟—来吃这腐烂的肉，对吧？ In other words, the body will be left for the eagles—these vultures, these carrion-eating birds—to come and eat the decaying flesh, right?
对。 Right.
这不可能是天堂，兄弟。 That can't be heaven, brother.
是啊，天堂怎么会是食腐鸟吃腐肉的地方呢，对吧？ No, heaven is not about carrion-eating birds eating decaying flesh, right?
这听起来更像是地狱。 That sounds more like hell.
这更像是一个受苦的地方。 That sounds more like a place of torment.
所以，既然那些被取去的—回到那个问题，我应该被撇下吗？ So, since those taken away—so to the question, should I be left behind?
答案是应该。 The answer is yes.
你应该想被撇下，因为你要像挪亚和他的家人一样，在义人当中。 You want to be left behind because you want to be among the righteous, like Noah and his family.
你不会想成为被冲走的人，人子即将来临，所以你要被留下来迎接他的到来。 You don't want to be the one swept away, and the Son of Man is coming, so you want to be left behind to greet Him when He's coming.
阿们！ Amen to that!
能够迎接他，而且正如我们将要看到的，当我们讲到帖 撒罗尼迦前书第四章时，是要迎接他来建立新天新地。 To be able to greet Him, and as we're going to see, and when we come to 1 Thessalonians 4, to usher Him in to establish the new heaven and the new earth.
即使我们把这段经文解释为指公元70年耶路撒冷的毁灭，也是合 理的，因为在公元70年耶路撒冷被毁时，街道上到处都是尸体。 And even if we interpret this side as referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, it still fits because with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, there were bodies and corpses filling the streets of Jerusalem.
然后会有什么？ And what do you have?
会有食腐鸟来，对吧？ You have flesh-eating birds coming, right?
所以那些被取去的人是被带去毁灭的，而那些被撇下的 人将要经历的是新天新地的来临—这是指末世而言。 And so those who are taken away, right, are those who are taken to destruction, and the ones who are left behind are going to be the ones to experience destruction—the new heaven and the new earth when applied to the end of time.
最后，这里根本没有什么秘密的降临，对吧？ And finally, it's just—there's no secret coming here, right?
如果被提的观点是对的，那就必须是一个秘密的降临，因为这是被提论普遍的观点。 In order for the Rapture's view to be correct, it would have to be a secret coming because that's common among the Rapture's view.
基督会以一种秘密的方式部分降临，不是像末世时 那样带着所有的荣耀，而是秘密地来提走义人。 Christ comes down partially in a secret way, not in all of His glory like at the end of time, but in a secret way to snatch away the righteous.
但在这里，耶稣描述他降临的方式一点也不秘密，对吧？ But here, the way Jesus describes His coming is not very secretive, right?
因为耶稣说，他们要看见人子带着能力和大荣耀， 驾着天上的云降临，他要差遣使者用号筒的大声。 Because Jesus says, They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call.
这听起来一点也不秘密，对吧？ That doesn't sound very secretive, does it?
是的，一点也不秘密。 No, not at all.
因此，基于这些原因，我们读马太福音二十四章和路加福音十七章的 平行经文时，可以得出结论说这并不支持灾前前千禧年被提的观点。 So for these reasons, we can read this passage of Matthew 24 and its parallel version in Luke 17 and conclude this does not support the pre-tribulational premillennialism rapturous view.
至于那个问题，我应该被撇下吗？ And to the question, should I be left behind?
我认为答案是应该。 I think the answer is yes.
好的，明白了。 Okay, all right.
所以你提到帖撒罗尼迦前书也被用来支持被提的观点。 So you mentioned then the first letter to the Thessalonians also as being used in support of the idea of the Rapture.
是的，保罗在那里说，我们这活着还存留的人，必和他一同被 提到云里，在空中与主相遇。这样，我们就要和主永远同在。 Right, and that's where Paul says, We who are alive, we who are left, shall be caught up together with Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
所以，你们当用这些话彼此劝慰。 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.
这是在主降临的背景下说的，对吧？ This is within the context of the coming of the Lord, right?
所以在主降临时，保罗说我们要被提到空中与主相遇，并要永远与他同在。 So at the coming of the Lord, Paul says we're going to be caught up in the air to meet the Lord, and we're going to be with Him always.
许多人引用这段经文来支持灾前前千禧年被提的观点。 Many appeal to this passage in support of this pre-tribulational premillennialism rapturous view.
但这里有个问题—实际上有几个问题。 But here's the problem—there are several problems, actually.
第一，被提的解释错误地把经文理解为基督部分性的降临，但事实并非如此。 Number one, the rapturous interpretation misreads the text as a partial coming down of Christ, but that's not the case.
经文nowhere没有说基督降下来然后又升回天上。 Nowhere does it say that Christ comes down and then ascends back to heaven.
第15节只是简单地说主必从天降临，有呼叫的声音。 Verse 15 just simply says the Lord will descend from heaven with a cry of command.
没有提到他要回去，对吧？ It says nothing about Him going back, right?
这是被提解释的第一个问题。 So this is the first problem with the rapturous interpretation.
现在，第二个问题是，Cy，这段经文中有一些 细节表明保罗说的是耶稣在末世的最后降临。 Now, the second problem is that there are certain details, Cy, in this passage that reveal Paul is talking about the final coming of Jesus at the end of time.
这是第一个细节：在第16节，保罗谈到复活，在基督里死了的人必先复活。 So here's the first detail: in verse 16, Paul talks about the resurrection, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
那么，在保罗的神学中，复活是什么时候发生的呢？ Well, guess when the resurrection happens for Paul in Paul's theology?
是在末世的时候，明白吗？ It happens at the end of time, okay?
我们从哥林多前书十五章22至24节知道这一点。所以如果保罗在帖撒罗 尼迦前书四章15-17节谈到在主降临时我们要在空中与主相遇，如果他 说这要发生在复活的时候，而根据哥林多前书十五章22-24节，他告诉 我们复活是在末世发生，那么在帖撒罗尼迦前书四章，他说的是什么？ And we know this from 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verses 22 through 24. So if Paul is, in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, talking about being caught up with the Lord in the air at the coming of the Lord, if he's saying that's going to happen at the time of the resurrection, and according to 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, he tells us that the resurrection happens at the end of time, well then it follows that in 1 Thessalonians 4, what is he talking about?
他说的是主在末世的降临，而不是在大灾难之前部分性地降临来提走义人。 He's talking about the coming of the Lord at the end of time, not some partial coming before the tribulation to snatch away the righteous.
这是一个细节。 So that's one detail.
还有其他几点，但你对此有什么想法吗？ There are a couple of others, but any thoughts on that?
嗯，看起来似乎根本就没有被提这回事。 Well, it's starting to seem like there is no Rapture.
那么，公教徒认为被提是什么时候发生的？ Like, when do Catholics think the Rapture happens?
就是说，我们根本不相信会发生被提。 Like, we don't believe it happens at all.
如果你说的被提是指我们要在空中与主相遇，迎接他最后荣耀的降临，那么从这个意义上 说我们确实相信被提，这将发生在末世，当基督再次荣耀降临时，他要战胜一切邪恶，战 胜敌基督，迎来新天新地，伴随着身体复活等等。这实际上是对保罗所指的合理解释。 If you mean by Rapture that we're going to be caught up with the Lord in the air to meet Him, to usher Him in at His final glorious coming, we do believe in the Rapture in that sense, which will take place at the end of time when Christ comes in glory again to vanquish all evil, to vanquish the Antichrist, to usher in the new heaven and new earth, with bodily resurrection, etc. And this actually gets to the plausible interpretation of what Paul is referring to here.
如果他说的是在空中与主相遇，如果不是被提论的观点，那他是什么意思？ If he's talking about being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, if it's not the Rapture's view, then what does he mean?
是的，好的，他是什么意思？ Yeah, okay, what does he mean?
正如基督教历代以来许多人所说，这很可能是指在主再来时地 上的义人，以及在主再来之前已在天堂享见神的义人，对吧？ And as many have said throughout the centuries of Christianity, this most likely refers to the righteous on earth at the time of the Second Coming, along with those righteous who are in the beatific vision prior to the Second Coming, right?
在死后的存在状态中，当主带着一切荣耀降临时，他们要被提到空中迎接他。 In the post-mortem state of existence, being taken up to meet the Lord in the air as He descends in all of glory to usher Him in.
这就像城市的居民会出城迎接一位贵宾一样。 Similar to how citizens of a city will go out of the city walls to meet a dignitary to usher him in.
我们在圣经中实际上也看到这样的例子。 And we actually see this in the Bible.
例如，在使徒行传二十八章14-17节，我们读到罗马的弟兄们如何出城迎接保罗。 For example, in Acts 28:14-17, we read how the brethren at Rome went out of the city to meet Paul as he approached.
我们也是这样做的，对吧？ And we do this, right?
当总统来到机场降落时，会有一大群人在那里迎接他，欢迎他进城，对吧？ When the president comes and lands at the airport, you'll have a big group of people there to meet him and to welcome him into the city, right?
是的，没错。 Yeah, right.
这不是降下来然后再上去。 This is not a come down and go back up.
这不是降下来再上去；而是被提上去迎接他，迎 接他进来，对吧，当他来建立新天新地的时候。 It's not a come down and go back up; it's being caught up with Him to meet Him, to usher Him in, right, as He comes to establish the new heaven and the new earth.
这是对保罗在这里所说的更合理的理解。 And that is a more plausible reading of what Paul is talking about here.
这才是真正的被提的理解—被提上去，与主相遇，迎接 他来建立新天新地，而不是灾前前千禧年的被提观点。 That's the true rapturous understanding—here to be raptured, to be caught up with the Lord, to usher Him in to establish the new heaven and the new earth, as opposed to the pre-tribulation premillennialism rapturous view.
所以我认为我们不仅有充分理由否定灾前被提的观点，而且在马太福音 二十四章和帖撒罗尼迦前书四章中的这些原则实际上与公教的末世观相 符并支持它—就是主在末世带着他一切的荣耀降临，与身体复活相关联 ，我们要在他的荣耀中被提上去迎接他，迎接他来建立新天新地。 So I think we have not only good reason to deny the pre-tribulation rapturous view, but also we have principles here in both Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 that actually cohere with and support the Catholic view of the end times—that the coming of the Lord at the end of time in all of His glory is associated with the bodily resurrection, say, and us being caught up with Him in His glory to usher Him in to establish the new heaven and the new earth.
好的，我能问一个有点偏题的问题作为结束吗？ Okay, can I just end with a little offbeat question?
问吧，兄弟。 Go ahead, brother.
让我们看看能否用这个变奏创作出新的交响乐。 Let's see if we can create a new symphony with that offbeat.
我们要创作一首全新的歌。 We'll create a whole other song.
在公教的理解中，这不仅仅是象征；这是历史。 This is not mere symbolism in the Catholic way of understanding; this is history.
这是真实会实现的预言；主真的会降临。 This is prophecy that will really come true; the Lord really will descend.
我说得对吗？ Am I right about that?
嗯，这是个好问题。 Well, that's a good question.
我需要进一步询问一下这具体是什么性质。 I'd have to inquire a little bit more as to the precise nature of that.
你完全可以从字面意思理解，我们会真的被提到空中，就像在天空 中那样，然后以我们想象中那种具体的方式与他一同降临，对吧？ You could very well take it as if we will literally be caught up with Him in the air, like up there in the sky, and then come down with Him in the sort of concrete way that our imagination conjures when we think about this, right?
或者也可以从比喻的角度理解—就是说我们会被主的荣耀所吸引 ，当他在最后荣耀中降临时与他同在，这是一种比喻性的解读。 Or it could be taken in a metaphorical sense—in the sense that we're going to be caught up in the Lord's glory and present with Him as He comes in His final glory and have some sort of metaphorical reading.
我接受这种解释，但我也接受字面和物理意义上的解释，就是 以某种方式被提到主那里，让当时在地上有肉眼的人能看见。 I'm open to that interpretation, but I'm also open to a literal physical interpretation of somehow being caught up with the Lord so that those who are present on the earth with physical eyeballs at the time.
对，所以我认为这里有不同解释的空间。 Right, so I think there's room for differing interpretations here.
但关于降临的部分—主的第二次来临—是的，我是说 ，在第二次来临时，主会驾着天上的云降临，对吧？ But the descending part—the Second Coming—yeah, I mean, the Second Coming, the Lord will descend on the clouds of heaven, right?
所以我接受字面上的理解，但我也接受—除非有我不知道的教会的不可错误 训导—这可能是一种比喻的说法，表示基督将以荣耀的方式在地上显现。 And so I'm open to taking that in a literal way, but I'm also open—unless I'm not aware of some infallible teaching of the Church—I'm also open to that being a metaphorical way of saying that Christ will manifest Himself physically on the earth in a glorious way.
因为主驾云降临，这在旧约中是上主来施行审判的象征。 Because the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven, that's symbolism in the Old Testament for God coming in judgment.
所以当耶稣称自己像人子驾着天上的云降临，甚至当他谈到他的来临— 人子的降临—时，这可能是指人子在末世来审判地上的恶人和敌基督。 So it could very well be when Jesus refers to Himself more like a Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, and even speaks about that when He's talking about His coming—the coming of the Son of Man—that could be referencing the Son of Man coming in judgment for the evil ones on the earth at the end of time and also the Antichrist.
是的，但也可以理解为主真的驾云降临，对吧，带着他所有的荣耀显现自己。 Yeah, but one could interpret it to be physically the Lord descending on a cloud, right, in all of His glory, manifesting Himself.
所以我认为这两种解释都有空间。 So I think there's room for both interpretations there.
我很喜欢这次谈话。 I do like having this conversation.
现在当我坐飞机时，我不用担心飞行员像电影里那样突然被提走了。 Now that I'm flying, when I'm flying on an airplane, I don't have to worry about the pilot getting raptured out like he did in the movie.
谢谢你，Carlo。 Thanks, Carlo.
谢谢你，Cy。愿神保佑你。 Thank you, Cy. God bless you.
好吧，如果你一直期待被提，现在发现它并不会如期 而至，至少不是通常教导的那种方式，我很抱歉。 Well, sorry if you were looking forward to the Rapture to find out that it's not to be expected, at least in the way that it is usually taught.
但正如Carlo所说的，我们有很多值得期待的事，包括主的第二次来临，无 论我们是在他来临时还在地上，还是在他来临时已经在他的队伍中与他同在。 But as you can see from what Carlo had to say, we've got a lot to look forward to, including the Second Coming of the Lord, whether we're here on the earth when He comes or whether we are with Him in His retinue when He comes.
无论如何，这都是未来的好消息。 Either way, it's awful good news that that is in the future.
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我是主持人Cy Kellett，若神愿意， 我们下次再会，就在公教答疑Focus节目。 I'm Cy Kellett, your host, and we'll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.