我最近看了你与詹姆斯·怀特的辩论。 I saw your debate recently with James White.
我认为詹姆斯·怀特是英语世界中最好的新教护教学家。 I think that James White is the best Protestant apologist in the English-speaking world.
哇，你参加那场辩论时紧张吗？ Wow, were you nervous going into that?
你在发抖吗？ Are you shaking?
我在开玩笑。 I was lying.
唯独圣经的最佳论据是什么？ What is the best argument for sola scriptura?
教宗方济各说过那个。 Pope Francis said that.
那听起来像是查理·柯克会说的话，但教宗方济各说了这个。 That sounds like something Charlie Kirk would have said, but Pope Francis said it.
公教徒认为马丁·路德消除了那个迷思，而我们需要公教徒停 止说新约三分之一，也就是九本书，在早期教会中存在争议。 Catholics think that Martin Luther removed that myth, and we need the Catholics to stop saying that one-third of the New Testament, nine books, were disputed in the early Church.
韦斯利·赫夫上了乔·罗根的节目。 Wesley Huff was on Joe Rogan.
我看了这个片段，这就是引起我注意的地方。 I saw this clip, and this is what caught my attention.
我很好奇你对此的看法。 I'm curious your take on this.
所以他是错的。 So he's wrong.
他是错的。 He's wrong.
案子结了！ Case closed!
好吧，不，开个玩笑。 All right, no just kidding.
好，让我告诉你为什么他是错的。 Well, let me tell you why he's wrong.
为什么他是错的？ Why is he wrong?
大家好，欢迎回到莉拉·罗斯秀！ Hey everyone, welcome back to the Lila Rose Show!
如你所知，我们有时在节目中谈论神学。 We talk theology on the show sometimes, as you know.
今天将会非常有趣，因为我们将深入探讨新教和公教之间的一些核心差异 ，更具体地说，是宗教改革者的一些信仰和现代新教信仰之间的差异。 Today is going to be really fascinating because we're getting into some of the core differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, but more specifically between some of the Reformers' beliefs and some of the modern-day Protestant beliefs.
在这一集中有很多你可能还不了解的宝贵信息，不仅是关于 这些差异，还有关于500年前这些辩论是如何展开的。 There's a lot of gems in this episode of things that you might not already have been aware of about some of these, not just differences, but the way that these debates unfolded 500 years ago.
我实际上邀请了护教学家亚历克斯·胡拉多做客节目。 I'm actually having on the show Alex Jurado, who is an apologist.
希望大家喜欢，如果你还没有订阅节目，别忘了订阅。 I hope you guys enjoy, and don't forget to subscribe if you're not already subscribed to the show.
如果你正在使用播客应用收听，请给我们五星评价并留下评论。 And if you are listening on a podcast app, please give us five stars and leave us a review.
这有助于节目接触到更多人。 That helps the show reach more people.
亚历克斯·托雷托，欢迎来到播客！ Alex Toretto, welcome to the podcast!
莉拉·罗斯女士，非常感谢邀请我。 Ms. Lila Rose, thank you so much for having me.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我非常兴奋能来到这里。 I am so excited to be here.
我也是！ Me too!
我很高兴你在这里。 I'm excited you're here.
我最近了解了你的作品，我心想，这个人，他做得真棒。 I've gotten to know your stuff most recently, and I was like, this guy, he's killing it.
谢谢。 Thank you.
理性之声。 Voice of reason.
我们在尽力；我们尽我们所能做到最好。 We try; we're doing the best that we can.
你刚刚告诉我，你的姓氏是法官，这很酷。 And it's cool that your last name, you were just telling me, is Judge.
这是西班牙语中「法官」的意思，所以你是亚历克斯·法官。 It's a Spanish word for judge, so you're Alex Judge.
对于法官和陪审团来说，所以亚历克斯·法官。 For judge and jury, so Alex Judge.
所以现在，根据规则，每个人都会称呼我为亚历克斯·法官。 So now, because by the ruleset, everyone is going to be calling me Alex Judge.
我喜欢那个名字。 I love that name.
这是个有力的名字。 It's a strong name.
哦，谢谢你，亚历克斯。 Oh, thank you, Alex.
法官，为什么不呢？ Judge, why not?
好的，你最近做了很多事情，有很多可以深入讨论的。 All right, so there's so much stuff that you have been doing recently, and there's so much to get into.
我最近看了你与詹姆斯·怀特的辩论，他是一位重要的加尔 文主义护教学家，我一开始想，好吧，这会怎么进行呢？ I saw your debate recently with James White, who's a big, I think, Calvinist apologist, and at first I was like, okay, how's this going to go?
我开始观看，你表现得非常出色。 I started watching it, and you crushed it.
做得很好！ Great job!
谢谢。 Thank you.
你很友善，而且非常简明扼要。 Very kindly, you're just very simple.
你的论点非常中肯，我认为评论区压倒性地认为你表现得非常出色，亚历克斯。 Your arguments are very on point, and I think the comment section was overwhelmingly that you crushed it, Alex.
理性之声为你投票。 Voice of Reason voting for you.
我不知道评论区是怎么说的。 I don't know how that goes in the comment section.
嗯，谢谢。 Well, thank you.
但你最近才开始做很多这样的事情。 But you just started doing a lot of this recently.
是的，所以我想谈谈那场辩论。 Yes, so I want to talk about the debate.
我想谈谈你的工作，你在做什么，还有你从哪里来，因为我感觉你最近突然出现在Y ouTube上，进行这些辩论，做护教学工作，我想知道亚历克斯的故事是什么。 I want to talk about your work, what you're up to, but also where you came from, because I feel like you just sort of came out of nowhere recently on YouTube, doing these debates, doing apologetics, and I want to know the story of who was Alex.
每个人都想知道关于亚历克斯的故事。 Everyone wants to know the story about Alex.
我们在2023年3月开始了「理性之声」，所以快两年了。 We began Voice of Reason in March of 2023, so it's about to be two years.
我的制片人，从六岁起就是最好的朋友，你刚刚见过的乔纳森，在这附近的某个地方。 My producer, best friend since six years old, who you just met, Jonathan, is around here somewhere.
他是说服我做这件事的人。 He was the one who convinced me to do it.
大约一年，一年半后，他一直在尝试让我做这件事有相当一段时间了。 After about maybe a year, a year and a half, he had been trying to get me to do this for quite a while.
是的，YouTube频道，在线上，做在线护教学。 The YouTube channel, yeah, to be online, to do online apologetics.
最终，在两年前的三月，我说，好的，让我们做 吧，因为我在他重归信仰的过程中起了作用。 Finally, in March of, you know, two years ago, I said, Sure, let's do it, because I had a role in his reversion to the faith.
这对他产生了如此深远的影响，以至于他说，我想让你出镜。 It had such a profound impact on him that he said, I want to put you on camera.
我想让你出镜，因为他的背景是社交媒体营销和内容创作。 I want to put you, because his background is in social media marketing and content creating.
他一直在尝试让我做这件事有相当一段时间，最后，有一天，他就闯进了我的房子。 He had been trying to get me to do it for quite some time, and finally, one day, he just barged into my house.
我不知道他是怎么进来的。 I don't know how he got in.
他只是叫我坐在沙发上，然后他架设了设备。 He just told me to sit down on the couch, and he set up his equipment.
哇，真是个好朋友！ Wow, what a friend!
我说，好吧，然后他把一切都准备好，说，这就是它将会呈现的样子，我说，好的。 I said, All right, and then he put it all together and said, This is what it's going to look like, and I said, Okay.
我唯一想出来的就是「理性之声」这个名字。 The only thing I came up with was the name Voice of Reason.
这是我唯一的——其他每一个想法都是他的。 It was the only thing that I—every other idea has been his.
我不能邀功任何事情。 I can't take credit for anything.
「理性之声」是唯一的事情。 Voice of Reason is the only thing.
所以，好的，你告诉我他——这是你从几岁起就是最好的朋友？ So, okay, you told me that he—this is your best friend since you were how old?
六岁？ Six years old?
你说你在他重新皈依中起了重要作用。 And you said you had a big role in his reconversion.
告诉我关于那个的事。 Tell me about that.
当然！ Sure!
所以他和我都是从小就是公教徒，但他在应该接受坚振的时候没有接受坚振。 So he and I are both cradle Catholics, and he didn't get confirmed when he was supposed to get confirmed.
他对自己的信仰一无所知——只是在文化上是公教徒，就像我认为大多数西班牙裔人一样。 He knew nothing about his faith—very just culturally Catholic, like I think most Hispanics are.
许多西班牙裔人在文化上是公教徒，他们并不真正了 解自己的信仰，至少在这个国家，在美国是这样。 A lot of Hispanics are culturally Catholic, and they don't really know the faith as well as they should, at least here in this country, here in America.
他真的不了解自己的信仰，也不认为它很重要。 He really didn't know his faith, and he didn't really find it to be important.
他实际上在探索其他事物。 He was actually looking into other things.
他非常热衷于新时代灵性；他非常热衷于东方宗教，你知道，佛教。 He was really into the New Age spirituality; he was really into the Eastern religions, you know, Buddhism.
他甚至有点在研究伊斯兰教，因为他对真理很好奇。 He was even kind of looking into Islam as well because he was curious about truth.
他想知道什么是真实的。 He wanted to know what is true.
所以他在探索，我想就像我们大多数人一样，我们在特定的 传统中长大，因为我们在其中长大，我们认为我们了解它。 So he was exploring, and I think like most of us, we grew up in particular traditions, and because we grew up in it, we think that we know it.
我们认为我们知道关于特定传统的所有知识。 We think that we know everything that there is to know about a particular tradition.
他一无所知。 He knew nothing.
我们大多数人一无所知。 Most of us know nothing.
他在探索其他事物。 He was looking into other things.
由于我们是最好的朋友，而且我一生都虔诚地信奉公教，从14岁起我 就认真地研究它，并且我曾在修道院学习，我决定我要帮助我的朋友。 Being that we're best friends and being that I have been devoutly Catholic my entire life, and I've studied it seriously since I was 14 years old and I was in seminary, I decided I'm gonna help my friend.
我帮助了他，最终，他真正经历了我们所说的重归信仰。 I helped him, and eventually, he had a really what we call a reversion.
他爱上了主耶稣基督，爱上了他的教会，现在他比我更像公教徒，他充满热情。 He fell in love with the Lord Jesus Christ, fell in love with His Church, and now he's like more Catholic than me, and he's on fire.
它以如此戏剧性的方式改变了他的生活，激励他让我做这件事。 It changed his life in such a dramatic way that it inspired him to get me to do this.
因为那个，我现在坐在这里和你一起。 Because of that, I'm sitting here with you.
但我认为这是我们很多人的故事。 But I think that's the story of a lot of us.
很多人在探索其他事物，因为我们发现其他事物，那些陌生的事 物，东方灵性之类的，或其他宗教，我们发现它们很有吸引力。 A lot of people that are looking into other things because we find other things, things that are foreign, the Eastern spirituality and things like that, or other religions, we find them to be attractive.
但我告诉他的是，我说，你所寻找的一切，你一直都拥有。 But what I told him was, I said, Everything that you're looking for, you've had all along.
我带他去了我的拜占庭教会。 I brought him to my Byzantine Church.
我是拜占庭公教徒，我认为当他看到基督教的东方表达方式时，那就是对他有启发的时候。 I'm Byzantine Catholic, and I think that when he saw the Eastern expression of Christianity, that was when it clicked for him.
当我带他去东方教会时，那是他真正、真正爱上的时候。 That was when he really, really fell in love when I brought him to the Eastern churches.
我们只是不断地爱上。 We just keep falling in love.
几天前，我们与圣地亚哥的迦勒底公教会神父西蒙交谈过。 We talked to Father Simon, the Chaldean Catholic priest in San Diego, a few days ago.
了不起的人。 Great guy.
是的，他很棒，我们和他一起出去玩了。 Yeah, he's amazing, and we hung out with him.
他带我们去了他父母的家；我们在他父母家过夜。 He took us to his parents' house; we spent the night at his parents' house.
他的父亲是迦勒底公教会的一位执事。 His father is a deacon in the Chaldean Church.
他们对我们很好，我们每天都更加爱神和神的子民。 They treated us so well, and we just keep falling in love every day with God and with God's people.
你去过圣迈克尔修道院吗？ Have you been to St. Michael's Abbey yet?
是的，我上个月去过那里。 I was there last month, yeah.
那里很特别。 It's so special.
我实际上有它。 I actually have it.
有趣的是，当我在那里时，我们住了大约三个晚上，他给 了我一张非常特别的专属卡，让我可以进入整个建筑。 It's funny because when I was there, we stayed there for like three nights, and he gave me like a really special, exclusive card that gets me into like the whole building.
哦，哇。 Oh wow.
我没有那张卡，当我们回家时我不小心把它带走了。 I don't have that card, and I took it with me by accident when we came back home.
我一直拿着它。 I've had it.
哦，我明白了。 Oh, I see.
我想乔纳森有它，你就像是说，去把它交回去，因为他们可 能会说，哦。我想安布罗斯神父在接下来的几周会过来。 I think Jonathan has it, and you're like, Go turn it in, because they're probably like, Oh. I think Father Ambrose is coming by in the next few weeks.
我不知道；他可能在那之前就需要它。 I don't know; he might need it before that.
我正想说你可以直接送过去。 I was going to say you could just drop it off.
我想我可以在这里把它交给你，交给弗兰科，你们可以把它给他。 I think I could drop it off here with you, with Franco, and you guys could give it to him.
把它给弗兰科。 Give it to Franco.
他会完成一项任务。 He'll do a mission.
把它送过去。 Take it over.
是的，我想你说过你想去，对吧，弗兰科？ Yeah, I think you had said you wanted to go, right, Franco?
所以，是的，我去过圣迈克尔修道院。 So, yeah, I was at St. Michael's Abbey.
我们有机会与安布罗斯神父一起做音乐会，那很有趣。 We got to do a concert with Father Ambrose, and it was fun.
每次我在这里，每次我和优秀的公教徒在一起，去所有这 些美丽的公教场所，我感觉像个孩子一样玩得很开心。 Every time that I'm here, every time that I'm with good Catholics and going to all of these beautiful Catholic places, I feel like a kid just having a blast.
好的，你介意我问你多大了吗？ All right, do you mind me asking how old you are?
我29岁。好的。 I'm 29. Okay.
所以你说的是，当你在高中时，你对公教信仰有这种，你知道的，强烈的热情。 So what you said is when you were in high school you had this, you know, powerful passion for the Catholic faith.
你在青少年时期就开始研究护教学。 You started studying apologetics as a teenager.
带我了解过去十年，因为听起来你在护教学方面做了大量研究，但听起 来其中一些是在修道院学习的，然后你离开了，还有一些是自学的。 Walk me through the last decade because it sounds like you've done a tremendous amount of study of apologetics, but it sounds like some of that's been in seminary and then you left, and then some of that's been self-taught.
你的旅程是什么样的？ What's been your journey?
你一直对你的信仰充满热情吗？ Have you always been passionate about your faith?
那么是什么激励你做这项工作，成为信仰的护教者？ And then what kind of has inspired you to do the work to become an apologist for the faith?
现在我做这个已经有半辈子了。 It's been about half my life now that I've been doing it.
我从14年末开始，进入15年，大约是我开始上高中的时候。 I started at the end of '14, going into '15, around the time that I started high school.
当我上高中时，我想就像那个年龄的大多数年轻人一样，他们对一切都很好奇。 When I went to high school, I think like most young people that age, they get really curious about everything.
好奇心是一件美丽的事情，因为好奇心激励你去弄清 楚什么是真实的，什么是真的，什么是真理本身。 Curiosity is a beautiful thing because curiosity is what inspires you to go and figure out what is real and what is true, what is truth itself.
你知道，我有那些重大问题，就像我们在那个年龄都有重大问题一样。 I had, you know, the big questions, just like we all have the big questions at that age.
我决定我要以某种方式、以某种途径得到这些紧迫问题的答案 ，这些我有的问题，我真的变得痴迷于弄清楚什么是真理。 I decided that I was going to somehow, someway get these answers to these pressing questions, these questions that I had that I just really became obsessed with figuring out what is truth.
而且很有可能，感谢神，通过我们的智力和认真做功课，我们可以得出神存在的结论。 And it's very possible, thank God, that it's very possible that through our intellect and through just doing our homework, we can come to the conclusion that God exists.
他必须存在；神不存在是不可能的。 He has to exist; it's impossible for God not to exist.
我们知道神是有位格的；他必须是有位格的。 We know that God is personal; He has to be personal.
神不是有位格的是不可能的。 It's impossible for God to not be personal.
我们知道这位有位格的神确实向人类启示了自己 ，那启示在耶稣基督的位格中和在他的教会中。 And we know that this personal God has indeed revealed Himself to mankind, and that revelation is in the person of Jesus Christ and in His Church.
这些是任何人都可以得出的结论，只要你问对问题 ，知道在哪里寻找答案，然后你就直接深入其中。 These are conclusions that anybody can arrive at just if you ask the right questions and know where to look to find the answers, and you just dive right in.
所以当我年轻时，当我那个年龄时，我就直接深入其中。 So when I was young, when I was that age, I just dove right in.
我周围有很多新教的影响。 I had a lot of Protestant influence around me.
我有很多新教朋友，新教成年人，长辈们帮助了我很 多，帮助我解答了很多问题，我就这样继续前进。 I had a lot of Protestant friends, Protestant adults, elders that helped me a lot and helped me in getting a lot of my questions answered, and I was just going.
但你是公教徒。 But you were Catholic.
你是在公教环境中长大的，但你周围有很多…… You were raised Catholic, but you were around a lot of...
我是在公教环境中长大的，在教会中长大的，但我接受任何能帮助我的人的帮助。 I was raised Catholic, raised in the Church, but I took help from anybody that would help me.
你知道，向新教牧师，向公教神父提问，你会得到所有的信息。 You know, asking questions to Protestant pastors, to Catholic priests, and you kind of get all the information.
你通过它，你把所有的碎片放在一起，你看看什么有用，什么没用。 你真正寻找的最重要的东西是一致性——历史一致性、逻辑一致性。 You look through it, you put all the pieces together, you see what works, and you see what doesn't. The most important thing that you're really looking for is consistency—historical consistency, logical consistency.
当你通过所有的证据，你会遇到一堵墙，你遇到的 那堵墙，就是没有办法绕过去：公教是真实的。 And when you go through all of the evidence, you hit a wall, and that wall that you hit, there's just no way around it: Catholicism is true.
如果耶稣基督真的是，是他所说的那个人，对此的逻辑结论是，如果我们遵循这一点， 如果我们假设公教必须是比所有其他传统更真实的，没有其他传统实际上是有意义的。 If Jesus Christ really was, is who He says that He was, the logical conclusion to that, if we're following that, if we assume that Catholicism has to be true over all of the other traditions, no other tradition actually makes sense.
所以我得出了这个结论，因为我曾经非常接近成为一名新教徒。 So I came to that conclusion because I was very close to becoming Protestant.
我周围有这么多新教的影响；我几乎成为了一名新教徒。 I had so much Protestant influence around me; I almost became a Protestant.
但是，你知道，我不知道那是什么。 But, you know, I don't know what it was.
也许这只是神的礼物，让我始终确保我认真地做我的功课，让我得到所有问题的答案。 Maybe it was just a gift from God that I always made sure that I really do my homework closely, that I get all my questions answered.
只要你得到所有问题的答案，重要的是问很多问题， 得到所有问题的答案，我认为你会得出那个结论。 And as long as you get all of your questions answered, and the important thing is to ask a lot of questions, get all of your questions answered, I think you will come to that conclusion.
所以对我来说，它始于14、15岁，然后最终到了后来。 So for me, it started at 14, 15, and then eventually later on.
你在某个时候教授教理吗？ Were you teaching catechism at a certain point?
是的，当我16岁时，就在我接受坚振礼后。 I was, when I turned 16 years old, right after I was confirmed.
他们把我视为一个青少年神童，他们让我教成年人。 They saw me as like a teenage prodigy, and they had me teaching the adults.
所以我大约16、17岁时，在我的堂区教成年人。 So I was like 16, 17, teaching the adults at my parish.
他们说，这个孩子充满热情。 They're like, this kid's on fire.
他很聪明；他在研究他所相信的。 He's smart; he's studying what he believes.
他实际上知道该教什么，所以他们让16岁的你在你的堂区教成年人。 He actually knows what to teach, and so they had to teach the adults at 16 at your parish.
对，所以我16、17岁时，教成年人，教青少年。 Right, so I was 16, 17, teaching the adults, teaching the teenagers.
然后你去了？ And then you went?
那之后你去了修道院吗？ Did you go to seminary after that?
我在修道院待了很短的时间，非常、非常短。 I was in seminary for a brief amount of time, very, very brief.
这不适合你，我猜不是。 It wasn't for you, I guess not.
我被踢出来了，不是被踢出来。 I got kicked out, not kicked out.
好的。 Okay.
不是被踢出来。 Not kicked out.
好吧，我被踢出来了。 Well, I got kicked out.
是这样的，我的灵修导师，他说，你知道吗？ What it was, my spiritual director, he said, you know what?
他说，嗯，我认为你有其他事情需要做。 He said, um, I think there's something else for you that you need to do.
我认为神在呼召你做其他事情，我不认为是这个。 I think God is calling you to something else, and I don't think it's this.
但当我在修道院时，那是我生命中最美好的时光。 But when I was in seminary, it was the best time of my life.
那是最好的。 It was the best.
那是最美丽的，我一生中经历过的最大的喜悦是在修道院中。 It was the most beautiful, the most joy that I've ever experienced in my life was being in the seminary.
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在你研究信仰和研究护教学时，你最重要的三位导师/来源是什么？ What has been your top three mentors/sources for you as you study your faith and study apologetics?
只有三个？ Only three?
哇！ Wow!
前三名，或者如果你想的话可以列五个。 Top three, or you can do five if you want.
前三名，前五名。 Top three, top five.
对于来源，你知道《教理》，教父们，因为我喜爱教父们。 For sources, you know the Catechism, the Church Fathers, because I love the Church Fathers.
这有点作弊，有点取巧，但这是公平的。 It's a little cheat, a bit of a cheat, but that's fair.
没关系。 That's okay.
没关系。 It's okay.
所有这些：《教理》，教父们，还有神学手册。 All of them: the Catechism, the Church Fathers, and just theological manuals.
我猜这有点奇怪，但就人而言，有很多在我的培养过程中帮助我的神父，如哈维尔· 古铁雷斯神父，他是把我带进修道院的人；胡里奥·古铁雷斯神父，他是我在修道院 的灵修导师；还有其他我合作过的内容创作者，当然包括所有常见的人选，对吧？ I guess it's kind of weird, but as far as people, man, so many priests that helped me in my formation were Father Javier Gutierrez, who was the one that got me into the seminary; Father Julio Gutierrez, who was my spiritual director in the seminary; and other content creators that I've worked with, like of course all of the usual suspects, right?
吉米·埃金和特伦特·霍恩和迈克尔·洛夫顿，还有很多我多年来一直在观看和学习的人。 Jimmy Akin and Trent Horn and Michael Lofton, and so many people that I've been watching and studying for years.
我15岁的时候，你知道，当我14岁的时候，我就在看吉米·埃金和特伦特·霍 恩。就在前几天，我在「公教答案」第一次与吉米·埃金交谈，感觉非常不真实。 I was watching Jimmy Akin and Trent Horn when I was 15, you know, when I was 14. I talked to Jimmy Akin for the first time at Catholic Answers just the other day, and it was very surreal.
我有这么多导师和这么多帮助过我的人。 I have so many mentors and so many people that have helped me.
那是五个吗？ Was that five?
我不知道。 I don't know.
这是一个很好的清单。 That's a good list.
有点超过五个，但是很好。 It went a little beyond five, but that was good.
你说你的朋友，当他把摄像机放在你面前时，闯入你 的房子，拿着摄像机对着你说，你只需要开始说话。 You said your friend, when you put the camera in front of you, barged into your house with the camera in front of you and said, You just got to start talking.
你记得第一个视频是什么吗？ Do you remember what that first video was?
我不记得了，因为它在YouTube频道上吗？ I don't remember because he is it on the YouTube channel?
哦，是的，它已经发布了。 Oh yeah, it came out.
如果你去我的抖音页面，一直向下滚动到最底部，无 论第一个视频是什么，我想那就是我们拍摄的那个。 If you go to my TikTok page, you scroll all the way back to the very bottom, and whatever that first video was, I think was the person that we filmed.
我不记得了，但他确实让我坐下来，然后他说，呃，谈谈这个，然 后他会随机抛出话题，我会说，好的，然后我会谈论它两分钟。 I don't remember, but he literally sat me down and he just said, Uh, talk about this, and he would just throw topics out there randomly, and I would say, Okay, and then I would talk about it for two minutes.
然后，我想在第一次会议中，我们最终拍摄了大约九个 视频，或者说，九个，你知道，一些长形式的视频。 And then, I think that first session we ended up filming something like nine videos or something, nine, you know, some long, long-form videos too.
那是在三月，然后在七月我们开始了YouTube和Instagram，七月，八月。 And that was, um, in March, and then in July we started YouTube and Instagram, July, August.
所以我们最初只在抖音上开始。 So we started just on TikTok.
所以我是一个抖音创作者，我想我仍然是抖音创作者。 So I was a TikToker, still a TikToker, I guess.
有点奇怪。 Kind of weird.
有点奇怪的是，我认为，他们并不真正理解这些圣事的意义。 It's kind of weird they don't really, I think, understand what a lot of these sacraments mean.
所以，我的意思是，我认为大多数公教徒甚至不相信真实临在，即这是耶 稣基督，真实临在，这是耶稣基督的身体、血液、灵魂和神性在圣餐中。 And so, I mean, I think it's a large majority of Catholics don't even believe in the true presence, that this is Jesus Christ, the real presence, this is Jesus Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist.
所以，我认为这个基督教护教学的世界总体上是绝对极其重要的。 So, I think this world of just Christian apologetics generally is absolutely incredibly important.
所以，看起来神确实在你朋友的生活中工作，让你 出去做更多这样的事情，因为这是如此需要的。 And so, it definitely seems like God’s working in your friend's life to get you out there to do this more because it's so needed.
人们需要听到这些。 People need to hear it.
我想谈谈詹姆斯·怀特的辩论和你一直在进行的 一些辩论，但我猜最令人惊讶的事情是什么？ I want to talk about the James White debate and some of the debates that you've been doing, but I guess what's been the most surprising thing?
你现在已经做这个，听起来差不多两年了，你的社交媒体账号在增长。 You've been doing this now, it sounds like almost two years, and your social media accounts are growing.
你现在到处分享护教学，进行辩论。 You're all over now sharing apologetics, doing debates.
关于刚刚跳入这个数字护教学世界，最令人惊讶的事情是什么？ What's been the most surprising thing about just jumping into this world of digital apologetics?
我想对我个人来说，最令人惊讶的事情就是它变得如此之大，真的很快。 I think for me personally, the most surprising thing is just how big it got really fast.
真的很快。 Just really fast.
我经常在街上遇到走到我面前并说他们知道「理性之声」的人，这对我来说真的很奇怪。 I meet people on the streets all the time that come up to me and say that they know Voice of Reason, and that's really weird for me.
甚至就在昨天，我们外出时，人们走到我面前。 Even just yesterday, we were out and about, and people were coming up to me.
当你遇到人们，你知道，当我遇到我认识的人，他们说他们是我的 粉丝，而我是他们的粉丝，你知道，就像我们在「公教答案」时。 When you meet people, you know, when I meet people that I know and they say that they're fans of me and I'm fans of them, you know, like when we were at Catholic Answers.
你知道，我遇到了赛·凯勒，他是「公教答案」 的主持人，他说，理性之声，很高兴你来这里。 You know, I met Cy Keller, who's the host of Catholic Answers, and he said, Voice of Reason, so good to have you here.
我们这里都是你的大粉丝。 We're big fans of you here.
我们走进办公室，每个人都围着我，试图拍照和和我交谈。 And we walked into the offices, and everyone was swarming me, trying to take pictures and talk to me.
这有点奇怪。 And that's kind of the weird thing.
我没想到它会是这样。 I didn't think it would be like this.
我在最狂野的梦中也从未想过会这样。 I never in my wildest dreams thought that it would be.
我开始时的主要目标是我只想与迈克尔·洛夫顿一起工作 ，因为迈克尔·洛夫顿是我最喜欢的，而我已经做到了。 My main goal when I started was I just wanted to work with Michael Lofton because Michael Lofton is my favorite, and I've done that.
我与他有很好的关系。 I have a great relationship with him.
现在，当我与洛夫顿一起工作时，我认为我成功了。 And now, when I worked with Lofton, I thought that I made it.
我现在和莉拉·罗斯在一起，前几天我和卡莉·甘斯一起，还有西蒙神 父，以及圣迈克尔修道院，我想遇见我所有的英雄是最意想不到的。 And I'm with Ida Rose, and I was with Callie Ganses the other day, and Father Simon, and St. Michael's Abbey, meeting all of my heroes I think was what was most unexpected.
我没想到会是这样。 I didn't think it would be like this.
你做的所有事情的大目标是什么？ What's your big goal with everything you're doing?
我的目标一直是尽可能多地帮助人。 My goal is to always just help as many people as I can.
只要我在帮助人，我每天都会收到人们的信息说，我因为你制作 的视频留在了公教会，或者我因为你制作的视频来到了公教会。 As long as I'm helping people, I get messages every single day from people that say, I stayed in the Catholic Church because of the videos you make, or I came to the Catholic Church because of the videos that you make.
我在考虑其他事情；我在考虑伊斯兰教，我在考虑新教，我在考虑东正教。 I was considering other things; I was considering Islam, I was considering Protestantism, I was considering Orthodoxy.
我在考虑所有这些事情。 I was considering all of these things.
我因为你制作的视频而聚集在一起。 I became gathered because of the videos that you make.
上个月我在这里时，这真的给我留下了深刻印象。 When I was here last month, this really stands out to me.
我有一个活动；我在一个演讲活动中，有数百人参加，我几乎见到了所有人。 I had an event; I was at a speaking event where it was like hundreds of people that showed up, and I met like all of them.
你知道，我几乎见过在那里的每一个人。 You know, I've met pretty much everyone that was there.
他们都认识我，你知道，上前来和我交谈。 They all know, you know, came up to speak to me.
有一个女孩走到我面前，她说，嘿，我想让你知道我因为你而戒酒了。 And there was one girl that came up to me and she said, Hey, I want you to know that I got sober because of you.
戒酒。 Sober.
我从未谈论过任何与成瘾、毒品或酒精有关的事情 ，但她告诉我，她说，你的视频帮助我戒酒了。 I've never talked about anything having to do with addictions or drugs or alcohol or anything, but she told me, she said, Your videos helped me get sober.
她说明原因了吗？ Did she say why?
没有，她只是说，她说，我想她有点解释了。 No, she just said, she said, I think she kind of explained.
她说，只是听你谈论真理，就像你说服了我这是真实的。 She said, Just hearing you talk about like the truth, and like you convinced me that this is true.
当你确信真理时，你就不再想要世界上的东西了。 And when you're convinced of the truth, like you don't want the things of the world anymore.
在我经历过的所有事情中，所有的，我猜，所有的 赞美中，那一个是真正、真正让我印象深刻的。 And that, of all of the things that I've ever, all of the, I guess, all of the compliments, that one is the one that really, really stood out to me.
你认为那意味着什么？ What do you think that means?
她能够通过听你谈论真理而戒酒？ That she would be able to get sober from hearing you just talk about the truth?
我认为这意味着神在主导一切，而不是我，因为我知道我是谁。 I think it means that God is running the show, not me, because I know who I am.
乔纳森知道我是谁。 Jonathan knows who I am.
我并不特别；没有什么，你知道，这只是神的工作。 I'm not special; there's nothing, you know, it is just the work of God.
因为，你知道，这些人联系我，告诉我我的工作对他们 意味着什么，而我想，因为我认为我的工作还可以。 Because, you know, I get these people that reach out to me and they tell me what my work means to them, and I'm like, because I think my work is okay.
我有点像是我自己最严厉的批评者。 I'm kind of like my worst critic.
乔纳森发布视频，他总是不得不安抚我，因为我像是，我不知道，伙计，我不认为那很好。 Jonathan puts the videos out, and he always has to talk me down because I'm like, I don't know, man, I don't think that's good.
我们应该重做它。 We should redo it.
每一次，他都像是，别担心，伙计，这会有效的。 And every single time, he's like, don't worry, man, this is going to work.
我就像是我自己最大的批评者，我总是像，我不喜欢它，伙计。 And I'm like my own biggest critic, and I'm always like, I don't like it, man.
我不喜欢我说这个的方式；我认为我本可以解释得更好。 I don't like how I said this; I think I could have explained it way better.
他像是，别担心，我们会发布这个。 And he's like, don't worry, we're going to put this out.
别担心。 Don't worry.
下次，下次你可以做得更好。 Next time, next time you can do better.
下次你可以。 Next time you can.
我从来不喜欢我所做的。 I never liked what I do.
我从来没有喜欢过它。 I've never liked it.
我不知道。 I don't know.
我甚至不能回看詹姆斯·怀特的辩论。 I can't even watch the James White debate back.
真的吗？ Really?
我不能看它。 I can't watch it.
我尝试了，然后我就像，不行。 I tried, and I was like, Nope.
我停止了。 I stopped.
好吧，这让我感觉好一点，因为我无法忍受看自己辩论。 All right, that makes me feel a little better because I cannot stand watching myself debate.
我就是不能。我像是，我不能，我也不能看它。 I just don't. I'm like, I can't, I can't watch it either.
让我告诉你一些事情。 Let me tell you something.
每次都是一样的。 And it's the same thing every time.
我觉得，本可以有十件事做得更好，但必须要谦虚，就像放手一样 ，好吧，我知道它不是很好，但对某些人来说可能已经足够好了。 I'm like, could have been ten things better, but just got to be humble, like let it go and be like, okay, I know it wasn't great, but it's maybe good enough for somebody.
你只需放手，祈祷神使用它。 And you just let it go and pray that God uses it.
你是我见过的最好的辩论者之一，莉拉·罗斯女士。 You are one of the best debaters that I've ever seen, Mrs. Lila Rose.
让我告诉你一些事情。 Let me tell you something.
我们在谈论它，我想是昨晚。 We were talking about it, I think it was last night.
我和乔纳森在谈论它。 Me and Jonathan were talking about it.
他提到他——因为乔纳森的妻子喜欢你。 He brought up that he—because Jonathan's wife loves you.
乔纳森的妻子就是——你是她最喜欢的。 Jonathan's wife is just—you're her favorite.
他们看了——我不知道是在什么上——你在与大约25人辩论的地方。 They watched the—I don't know what it was on—where you were debating like 25 people.
他们只是一个接一个地走到你面前，然后你会与他们辩论。 They were just coming up to you one by one, and you would debate them.
另一个人像是，天啊，莉拉·罗斯，天啊，她击败了所有人。 The other one was like, Man, Lila Rose, man, she's killed all of them.
她击垮了他们，摧毁了他们，就像焦土策略一样。 She crushed them, decimated them, just scorched earth.
就像，莉拉·罗斯不能被——我会害怕和莉拉·罗斯辩论。 Like, Lila Rose can't be—I would be afraid to debate Lila Rose.
我会对与莉拉·罗斯辩论感到恐惧。 I would be terrified of debating Lila Rose.
我的意思是，不过，你之前分享的，我非常有共鸣，因 为我们知道，就像，最终，神会使用我们的小小努力。 I mean, what you were sharing earlier, though, I just relate to that so much because we know, like, at the end of the day, God will use our little efforts.
但现实是，我很客观地知道X、Y和Z本可以做得更好。 But the reality is, I know very objectively that X, Y, and Z could have been better.
我知道你看一些自己的作品时会想，嘿，我做到了。 And I know you look at some of your stuff and you're like, Hey, I did.
但对于那些观看的人来说，他们也许是第一次以能够产 生共鸣的方式听到你所说的真理，这才是最终重要的。 But to the person watching who is maybe hearing some of that truth that you're saying for the first time in a way that they can connect with, that's what matters in the end.
所以这就是我们所说的，你只需要信任神。 And so that's where we're like, you just trust God.
让我们说，嘿，如果它是好的，那是来自你的；如果不是，帮助我下次做得更好。 Let's say, Hey, if it was good, it's of You; if it was not, help me do better next time.
你之前问我关于导师的事。 You asked me about mentors earlier.
我得到的最好的建议之一来自基思·内斯特。 One of the best pieces of advice that I ever got was from Keith Nestor.
在与詹姆斯·怀特的辩论之后，我试着去看，因为基思·内斯特是让我参加那场辩论的人。 After the James White debate, I tried to watch because Keith Nestor was the one that got me that debate.
他联系我并说，你想与詹姆斯·怀特辩论吗？ He reached out to me and said, Do you want to debate James White?
我正想问那是怎么发生的。 I was going to ask how that happened.
好吧，辩论发生后，我，你知道，收到的都是正面评价。 Well, after the debate happened, and I, you know, nothing but positive comments.
每个人都告诉我那很棒，你知道，背后有一个很大的故事。 It was just everyone was telling me that it was great, you know, and there's a big backstory behind it.
我们会谈到这个，但当我最终回去观看时，我直 到很久之后才看，比如可能是在它发生两周后。 We'll get into it, but when I finally went back to watch it, I didn't watch it until much later, like maybe two weeks after it happened.
我回去看了它，我看了它。 I went back to watch it, and I watched it.
我看了第一部分，我不知道，我看了我的开场陈述，然后是我 的反驳，之后我不得不关掉它，我说，不，我不能继续看了。 I watched the first, I don't know, I watched my opening statement and then like my rebuttal, and then after that, I had to cut it off, and I said, No, I can't do this.
我认为我做得很糟糕。 I thought I did terrible.
然后基思·内斯特给我打电话。 And Keith Nestor called me.
他打电话给我因为他想祝贺我，我像个摇滚明星一样接了电话。 He calls me on the phone because he wanted to congratulate me, and I answered the phone as a rock star.
发生了什么？ What's going on?
我像是，嘿，怎么了，基思？ And I'm like, Hey, what's up, Keith?
他说，你做得太好了。 He said, You did so good.
我像是，我不知道，伙计。 I was like, I don't know, man.
哦，我往后靠。 Oh, I sit back.
我不喜欢它。 I didn't like it.
我一点也不喜欢它。 I didn't like it at all.
但他给我的最好的建议之一，他说，这不是关于你的。 But one of the best pieces of advice that he ever gave me, he said, This isn't about you.
他说，你看到所有评论了吗？ He said, Have you seen all the comments?
你看到每个人都有，都有，大家在网上怎么评价你吗？ Have you seen everyone that has, that has, what everyone is saying about you online?
人们制作对此的反应视频？ People that are making reaction videos to it?
比如，你在关注你产生的好影响吗？ Like, are you watching the good impact that you're having?
那些说你赢了的新教徒？ Protestants that are saying that you won?
你知道，他说，这不是关于你的。 You know, he said, This is not about you.
当他说这话时，我的眼中终于有了平静。 And when he said that, I finally had peace in my eyes.
谁关心我怎么想？ Who cares what I think?
如果我在帮助人，如果我在帮助人，即使我看起来很蠢，但我在帮助人， 或者如果我没有，这不取决于我的，我不知道，我的标准或其他什么。 If I'm helping people, if I'm helping people, and if I look stupid doing it, but I'm helping people, or if I don't, it's not up to my, I don't know, my standard or whatever.
谁在乎？ Who cares?
这不是关于我的。 It's not about me.
所以如果我在帮助他人，那么基思·内斯特，向他致敬。 So if I'm helping others, so Keith Nestor, shout out to him.
他真的帮助了我，因为我当时对自己感觉有点糟糕。 He really helped me because I was like kind of feeling bad about myself.
那是一个非常好的，非常好的提醒。 That is a really good, really good reminder.
是的。 Yeah.
我们知道这是真的，对吧？ And we know it's true, right?
但很容易陷入你脑中的想法，哦，就是这样，因为你知道得越多，你 越意识到，哦，在这个人类层面上我本可以做所有这些其他事情。 But it is easy to get up in your head of like, Oh, this is it, because the more you know, the more you realize, Oh, I could have done on this human level all of these other things.
但就像你所说的，归根结底，这不是关于我们做什么；而是关于神用我们的尝试做什么。 But like you're saying, at the end of the day, it's not about us doing; it's about what God is doing with whatever the attempts are.
EveryLife.com EveryLife.com
是美国的亲生命婴儿尿布和湿巾公司，我也很兴奋地分享他们的新产品。 is America's pro-life baby diaper and wipes company, and I'm so excited to share about their new products too.
我喜欢EveryLife.com， I love EveryLife.com,
我为我的小宝贝们使用EveryLife尿布和湿巾，因为这些是一流的清洁产品。 and I use EveryLife diapers and wipes for my little ones because these are a best-in-class product that are clean.
这个产品中没有有害染料、香料或邻苯二甲酸酯。 There's no harmful dyes or fragrances or phthalates in this product.
它的设计对你的小宝贝健康，对你的小宝贝的皮肤有益。 It is designed to be healthy for your little one and good for your little one's skin.
如果你访问EveryLife.com/join If you go to EveryLife.com/join
今天，通过加入改变生活俱乐部，你不仅可以获得每月尿布和湿巾订阅的10% 折扣，此外，你还将获得一个免费手提袋，而且EveryLife.com today, by joining the Changing Lives Club, you not only get 10% off your monthly diaper and wipe subscription, in addition to that, you'll get a free tote bag, and EveryLife.com
将捐赠一盒尿布和湿巾给有需要的母亲和婴儿。 will donate a box of diapers and wipes to a mother and baby in need.
我很高兴分享EveryLife.com And I'm excited to share EveryLife.com
现在为你的小宝贝提供训练裤。 is now offering training pants for your little ones.
这些是12小时防漏训练裤，适合那些可能正在进行如厕训练的小宝贝。 These are 12-hour leak-proof training pants pull-ups for that little one that is maybe potty training.
你一定要去看看它们！ You've got to check them out!
EveryLife还刚刚推出了他们的新洗发水、婴儿沐浴露和乳液套装。 EveryLife also has just come out with their new shampoo and baby wash and lotion package.
产品很棒；我已经开始使用它了。 The product is amazing; I have already started to use it.
那就是EveryLife.com。 That's EveryLife.com.
加入，使用代码LILAH。你知道，我做的一件事是我也看很多辩论。 Join, use the code LILAH. And you know, one of the things that I kind of do is I watch a lot of debates too.
显然，当你是局外人，压力不在你身上时，你可以指出错误。 And I'm always, obviously, when you're outside looking in and the pressure isn't on you, you can point out the mistakes.
我看了很多辩论，包括你的辩论。 I watch a lot of debates, including your debates.
我研究你；我为辩论而研究你。 I study you; I study you for debate.
你知道，显然，我从未辩论过你辩论的主题。 You know, obviously, I've never debated the topics that you debate.
我很想这样做，但我研究你的辩论技巧，因为技巧非常重要。 I would love to, but I study you for like debate technique because technique is very important.
再次，因为我实际上关注基础，如果我像一个辩论教练， 我研究你，我永远不能指出你辩论技巧中的任何缺陷。 And again, because I actually look at the basics, if I'm like a debate coach, I study you, and I can never point out any flaws in your debate technique.
我认为你的辩论技巧就像会让特伦特·霍恩脸红一样。 Your debate technique is like you would make Trent Horn blush, I think.
但我想提出的一件事——实际上，现在辩论？ But one of the things that I want to propose—actually, debate right now?
不，不，不。 No, no, no.
就像我说的，我害怕与你辩论。 Like I said, I'm afraid to debate you.
我不想与你辩论。 I would not want to debate you.
从现在开始，当我进行辩论时，我想要有评委。 From now on, when I do debates, I would like to have judges.
我喜欢那个想法。 I love that idea.
我想要有评委。 I would like to have judges.
我认为从现在开始，如果我们要进行这些辩论——因为我们会有辩论，辩论会发生 ，然后每个支持一个人的人会说他赢了；每个支持另一个人的粉丝会说他赢了。 I think that from now on, if we're going to do these debates—because we'll have the debates, debates will happen, and then everyone that was supporting one guy will say he won; everyone that is a fan of the other guy will say he won.
我希望有评委。 I want there to be judges.
我希望有三个评委。 I want there to be three judges.
我希望他们给它评分。 I want them to score it.
我也是个拳击手；这就像拳击一样。 I'm a boxer too; it's like boxing.
最后会有人的手被举起来。 Someone's going to get their hand raised at the end.
所以从现在开始，每当我进行辩论时，我真的会坚持要有人知道如何给辩 论评分，就像真正的评委一样，因为我希望他们能指出所有的逻辑谬误。 So from now on, whenever I do debates, I'm going to really insist that we have somebody that knows how to score debates, like actual judges, because I want them to pull out all the logical fallacies.
我希望他们指出人们所有不坚持主题的时候，所有人们承认观点的时候。 I want them to point out all the times that people didn't stick to the topic, all the times that people conceded the point.
我参加过一场辩论，我辩论的那个人在辩论中实际上 三次让步了辩论的主题，但那是我的第一场辩论。 I did a debate where the guy that I was debating actually conceded the thesis of the debate three times in the debate, but it was my first debate.
我太紧张了，甚至没有听他在三个不同时刻所说的话，以至于我一次都没抓住他。 I was so nervous I wasn't even listening to what he was saying three different times that I didn't catch him a single time.
三次！ Three times!
但评论看到了，直播聊天看到了，我就像，你知 道，如果我们有评委，他们会介入并说，砰！ But the comments saw it, the live chat saw it, and I'm like, you know, if we had judges, they would have stopped in and said, Boom!
辩论结束了；你刚刚承认了。 The debate is over; you just conceded it.
那么，你听说过团队政策辩论或林肯-道格拉斯辩论吗？ So, have you heard of team policy debate or Lincoln-Douglas debate?
议会制，所以有所有这些格式，对吧？ Parliamentary, so there's all these formats, right?
我知道这一点，因为在高中我就在做这个，然后他们称之为进行这 些模拟辩论，你知道，模拟审判，然后他们称之为团队政策辩论。 I know this because in high school I was doing it, and then they called it doing these mock debates, you know, mock trial, and then they called it team policy debate.
但这就是他们所做的；他们有评委，然后他们有一个格式，他 们有一个决议，你必须定义术语，因为这总是一半的战斗。 But that's what they do; they have judges, and then they have a format, and they have a resolution, and you have to define the terms because that's always half the battle.
比如，这些术语到底是什么意思？ Like, what do these terms even mean?
比如，堕胎，什么是堕胎？ Like, abortion, what is an abortion?
或者，你知道，唯独圣经，在你与詹姆斯·怀特的辩论中，唯独圣经是什么？ Or, you know, sola scriptura, what is sola scriptura in the case of your debate with James White?
然后有评委，他们有一个排名系统来确定如何评估参赛者，我认为这很好。 And then there are judges, and they have a ranking system to determine how to evaluate the contestants on, and I think it's great.
但你知道吗？ But you know what?
你的评论区是你的陪审团；是你的评委。 Your comment section is your jury; it's your judges.
所以，我的意思是，我认为你是对的，有那个会很酷，但 有评委；是观看的人，他们在使用他们的任何排名系统。 So, I mean, I think you're right, it would be very cool to have that, but there are judges; it's the people watching, and they're doing whatever ranking system they're using.
你知道，他们在使用它。 You know, they're using it.
到目前为止你参加了多少场辩论？ How many debates have you done so far?
我只做了大约三场。 I've only done like three.
公开辩论。 Public debates.
只有三场公开的。 Just three public.
那些是大型的。 Those are big ones.
我实际上，技术上来说，两个健身房。 I've really, technically, two gyms.
现在有更多人想要与我辩论。 I've got more that everybody wants to debate me now.
我想要。 I want to.
我喜欢辩论。 I love debates.
辩论是我最喜欢的，但它们需要很多时间。 Debates are my favorite, but they take a lot of time.
它们需要很多准备工作。 They take a lot of prep work.
我忙于做其他事情。 I'm very busy doing other things.
我忙着和你交谈。 I'm busy talking to you.
我必须先把我所有其他事情处理好，然后我才能更专注于进行辩论。 I've got to get all my other things in order first, and then I can focus on doing debates more.
但我真的很想。 But I really do want to.
是的，我认为人们看到它们是很令人耳目一新的。 Yeah, I think it's so refreshing for people to see them.
所以，我认为它们对人们来说越来越有吸引力。 So, they're more and more, I think, attractive for people.
而且有这种新的复兴，就是「让我们与不同意我们的人交谈」。 And there's this new resurgence of, Let's talk to people who disagree with us.
我确实赞赏像禧年这样进行辩论和这种疯狂对话和讨论的频道。 I do credit channels like Jubilee that are doing debates and doing these kind of crazy conversations and discussions.
形式有点奇怪，说实话，但它们对人们来说也真的很有趣和吸引人。 The formats are a little weird, let's be real, but they're also really entertaining and engaging for people.
我认为这真的很不可思议，因为人们终于有了他 们的想法和预设被挑战的机会，有时是第一次。 I think that's really incredible because people are finally having their ideas and their presuppositions challenged, sometimes for the first time.
而这就是真理最终可能找到以前没有的入口的地方。 And that is where the truth can finally maybe make an entrance that hasn't made one before.
所以，詹姆斯·怀特，对于那些可能不知道他是谁的听众来说， 他可能是，你会说，是全国最著名的加尔文主义护教学家吗？ So, James White, for people that are listening that maybe don't know who he is, he is probably, though, would you say, the most well-known Calvinist apologist in the country?
我真诚地认为詹姆斯·怀特是英语世界中最著名的新教护教学家。 I honestly think that James White is the best well-known Protestant apologist in the English-speaking world.
哇。 Wow.
我想因为他，你知道，当我与他辩论时，那真的 是我的第二场辩论，我的第一场面对面辩论。 I think because he, you know, when I debated him, that was really my second debate, my first one in person.
那是他的第199场辩论。 That was his 199th debate.
哇。 Wow.
他做这个比我活着的时间还长。 He's been doing it longer than I've been alive.
他1990年开始；我1995年出生。而且他，是的，第199场辩论对比我的第二场。 He started in 1990; I was born in 1995. And he, yeah, 199th debate versus my second one.
特别是关于加尔文主义的唯独圣经？ On specifically Calvinism on sola scriptura?
关于任何与之相关的事情，你知道，他与公教徒、其他新教徒、无神论者、穆斯林辩论。 On just anything having to do with, you know, he debates Catholics, other Protestants, atheists, Muslims.
但我参加的是第199场辩论，我认为他的大多数辩论都是针对公教徒的。 But I was in the 199th debate, and most of his debates I think are against Catholics.
他真的喜欢与公教徒辩论，是的，就像一个大卫·里兹克。 He really likes debating Catholics, and yeah, it was like a David Rizk.
很多大家都保留的故事。 A lot of stories that everyone kept.
你参加那个时紧张吗？ Were you nervous going into that?
哦，我的天哪。 Oh my goodness.
你在发抖。 You're shaking.
我就像，我的意思是，我必须为人们表现得很酷，因为人们之前已经在那里了。 I was like, I mean, I had to be cool for like the people because the people were already there beforehand.
你会认为我即将与詹姆斯·怀特辩论，就像我必须，就像我必须确保我专注。 You would think that like I'm about to debate James White, like I got to, like I gotta make sure that I'm focused.
我有人走上来，让我拍张照。 I have people coming up, Let me take a picture.
你好吗？ How you doing?
你能签这个吗？ Will you sign this?
你能亲吻我的宝宝吗？ Will you kiss my baby?
随便什么。 Whatever.
所以我没有为它准备时间，你知道吗？ So I had no prep time for it, you know?
然后在我意识到之前，我就像，哦，我们开始了。 And then before I knew it, I was like, Oh, we're getting started.
去坐你的位置。 Go take your seat.
我说，哦，太好了，你知道，很酷。 And I said, Oh, great, you know, cool.
顺便说一下，非常感谢詹姆斯·怀特愿意辩论。 Big shout out to James White, by the way, for being willing to debate.
怀特博士对我很好。 Dr. White treated me really well.
我的意思是，我认为当你有那些对他们所相信的和他们在哲学和神学问题上的立场非常 热情的人，像詹姆斯·怀特，愿意与不同意他的人进行重复辩论，这是如此令人钦佩。 I mean, I think that's so admirable when you have people that are very passionate about what they believe and how they stand on philosophical and theological issues, like James White, who's willing to have repeat debates with people who disagree with him.
显然，对你做这件事给予巨大的赞誉，巨大的赞誉，因 为听起来让自己处于那个位置去做这件事并不容易。 Huge kudos, obviously, huge kudos to you for doing it, because it sounds like it was not easy to get yourself into that position to do it.
对，我不知道我是否曾公开说过这个，但他和我实际上在大约两周后，三周后再次见面了。 Right, I don't know if I've ever said this publicly, but he and I actually met up again like two weeks later, three weeks later.
我们见面吃午餐。 We met up to have lunch.
她经过我的城市，我们在辩论后安排了这个。 She was passing through my town, and we set it up after the debate.
嘿，我几周后会在阿尔伯克基，你知道。 Hey, I'll be in Albuquerque, you know, in a couple of weeks.
也许我们可以聚一聚。 Maybe we can get together.
是的，让我们这样做。 Yeah, let's do it.
我们聚在一起，我们在一个小餐馆见面，我们只是闲逛。 And we got together, and we met at a little restaurant, and we were just hanging out.
但他之后对辩论有什么看法？ But what did he have an opinion on the debate afterwards?
比如，如何谈论辩论？ Like, how to talk about the debate?
好的，我们没有谈论它。 Okay, we didn't talk about it.
我们只是聚在一起。 We just got together.
嘿，你好吗？ Hey, how you doing?
我说，嘿，怀特博士，你好吗？ And I was, Hey, Dr. White, how you doing?
他说，嘿，来吧，就叫我詹姆斯。 He goes, Hey, come on, just call me James.
好，我像是，好的，詹姆斯。 Well, I'm like, Okay, James.
这很酷。 And it was cool.
我们只是在吃饭，他在告诉我关于他的生活，就像两个好朋友在叙旧。 We were just eating, and he was telling me about just his life, and it was like two buddies catching up.
真的很酷。 It was really cool.
没有人看到他和我进行的大辩论。 No one ever saw the big debate that he and I had.
我们吃完饭后进行了一场非常激烈的辩论，因为 女服务员拿来了账单，把账单放在我们中间。 We had a very heated debate after we ate because the waitress brought the bill and put the bill right there in between us.
我去拿它；我试图付款，他把手放在我的手上，他说，我来付这个。 And I go for it; I'm trying to pay, and he puts his hand on mine and he goes, I'm paying for this.
就像我比你大两倍。 It's like I'm twice your age.
我说，怀特博士，我说这是我能做的最起码的事。 I said, Dr. White, I said it's the least I could do.
我坚持。 I insist.
所以他有那个东西，就像账单放在上面的那个小东西，我们 就像在做拉扯的动作，就像我们试图从对方那里拿到账单。 So he has like the thing, like the little thing that the bill comes on, and we're like doing like the pulling thing, like we're trying to like get the bill from each other.
他像是，我会付款。 And he's like, I will pay.
我邀请了你。 I invited you.
我说，怀特博士，你不远万里来见我。 And I said, Dr. White, you came all this way to see me.
让我付款。 Let me pay.
这是我能做的最起码的事。 It's the least I could do.
他像是，亚历克斯，我坚持我来付款。 And he was like, I insist, Alex, that I pay.
我像是，怀特博士，真的吗？ I'm like, Dr. White, really?
这不是什么大事。 It's not a big deal.
然后最后他说，亚历克斯，我比你赚的钱多。 And then finally he says, I make more money than you, Alex.
所以我说，好吧，那你付吧。 So I said, All right, you pay for it then.
他像是，好吧，很好，付吧。 He's like, All right, cool, pay for it.
是的，我不会在那里与你争论。 Yeah, I'm not going to argue with you there.
我像是，好吧，拿去吧。 I'm like, All right, take it.
所以詹姆斯·怀特在那场辩论中打败了我。 So James White beat me in that debate.
你像是，你怎么知道，亚历克斯？ You're like, How do you know, Alex?
你像是，你肯定比我赚得多。 You're like, You definitely make more money than me.
詹姆斯·怀特在那场辩论中打败了我，所以那天他得付钱。 James White beat me in that debate right there, so he got to pay for it on that day.
但他很棒；他对我很好。 But he was great; he treated me really well.
你知道每年有20万家庭因医疗费用而破产，即使有健康保险？ Did you know that every year 200,000 families go bankrupt from medical bills, even with health insurance?
对许多人来说，保险根本不适合他们。 For many people, insurance is simply not working for them.
这就是为什么我很兴奋与你分享CrowdHe alth，这是一种支付医疗保健的替代模式。 That's why I'm excited to share with you about CrowdHealth, which is an alternative model for paying for your health care.
CrowdHealth接收你的账单，亲自代表你进 行协商，然后向社区发出请求，帮助支付你的账单。 CrowdHealth takes your bills, personally negotiates them on your behalf, and then sends out a request to the community to help cover your bills.
CrowdHealth社区在过去两年中完全资助了5,000多份医疗账单。 The CrowdHealth community has fully funded more than 5,000 medical bills over the last two years.
这包括事故，如田纳西州的一位年轻女性在船艇事故中 失去了手指，到新生儿重症监护室的婴儿和癌症病例。 This includes accidents like a young woman in Tennessee who lost her fingers in a boating accident, to NICU babies and cancer cases.
请记住，CrowdHealth与保险不同，但它是一种 替代模式，帮助支付医疗账单并保持你的月度成本较低。 Keep in mind, CrowdHealth is not the same thing as insurance, but it is an alternative model to help pay medical bills and keep your monthly costs low.
所以去joincrowdhealth.com So go to joincrowdhealth.com
今天。 today.
在结账时使用代码LILA，只需99美元即可获得前三个月 的服务。那就是joincrowdhealth.com Use the code LILA at checkout to get your first three months for only $99. That's joincrowdhealth.com
在结账时使用代码LILA，只需99美元即可获得前三个 月的服务。joincrowdhealth.com。 and use the code LILA at checkout to get your first three months for only $99. joincrowdhealth.com.
好的，所以你们辩论了唯独圣经。 Okay, so you guys debated sola scriptura.
这是辩论的核心主题吗？ Was that the core topic of the debate?
我的意思是，这就是我从中得到的。 I mean, that's how much I made out of it.
这实际上是基本上拒绝罗马统治和加尔文主义的根本教义之一。 This is really one of the root teachings of basically the rejection of Roman rule and Calvinism.
所以我与詹姆斯·怀特的辩论实际上是两场辩论合一。 So the debate that I had with James White was actually two debates in one.
这是唯独圣经对比公教会权威。 It was Sola Scriptura versus Catholic authority.
我不想那样做因为这太宽泛了。 I didn't want to do that because that's too broad.
这就像我们实际上在这里进行两场辩论；比如我试图驳斥唯独圣经并证明公教会权威。 It's like we're really having two debates here; like I'm trying to disprove Sola Scriptura and prove Catholic authority.
他试图证明唯独圣经并驳斥公教会权威。 He's trying to prove Sola Scriptura and disprove Catholic authority.
我们在进行两场辩论。 We're having two debates.
我不想那样做。 I don't want to do that.
我喜欢辩论主题是简单的解决方案。 I like debate topics to be simple resolutions.
有简单的解决方案要好得多。 It's a lot better to have simple resolutions.
我认为它们更有成效，而且你实际上可以得出每个人都能看到的结论。 I think they're more productive, and you can actually get to a conclusion that everyone can see.
但我对那个决议有点恼火，但我不得不去做。 But I was a little annoyed by that resolution, but I had to do it.
我只有三周的时间准备那场辩论。 I only had three weeks to prepare for that debate.
嗯，所以是唯独圣经对比公教会权威。 Um, so it was Sola Scriptura versus Catholic authority.
实际上，这是两场辩论合一。 Really, it was two debates in one.
嗯，任何看过的人，你们都知道发生了什么。 Um, and anyone that saw him, you all know what happened.
但这，呃，这很多。 But it was, uh, it was a lot.
我们有，他们在跳舞，他们像是在战斗，他们像是在喊叫。 We had, they were dancing, they were like fighting, they were like yelling.
真的很疯狂。 It was really wild.
他拥抱了我；他说他爱我。 He hugged me; he said he loved me.
那确实在辩论中发生了，这也是另一件疯狂的事情。 That did happen in the debate, and that's another crazy thing too.
在怀特博士的任何辩论中，在200场辩论中， 他从未在辩论中途花时间说，我爱这个家伙。 Never in any of Dr. White's debates, of 200 debates, had he ever taken the time in the middle of the debate to say, I love this guy.
因为他说，我不知道你是否看了那部分，他说，我想花一点时间让大家知道我爱亚历克斯。 Because he said, I don't know if you watched that part, he says, I want to take a quick moment to let everyone know that I love Alex.
他走到我面前，握了我的手，拥抱了我。 And he came up to me and he shook my hand and he hugged me.
他把我拉过来；他像是说，过来这里！ He pulled me in; he was like, Get over here!
他拥抱了我，他说他爱我。 and he hugged me and he said that he loved me.
你爱他吗？ Do you love Him?
我爱怀特博士。 I love Dr. White.
我爱他。 I love him.
太美好了。 So beautiful.
我从未见过他在辩论中做过这样的事，我认为这是每个人都记住的 主要事情之一，就是他在辩论中间花时间说他爱我，并拥抱了我。 And I've never seen him do that ever in debates, and I think that was one of the main things that everyone took away, was that he took time in the middle of a debate to say that he loved me, and he hugged me.
你认为他为什么那样做？ Why do you think he did that?
我不知道。 I don't know.
所以，你们的大辩论：唯独圣经对比公教会权威。 So, your guys' big debate: Sola Scriptura versus Catholic authority.
唯独圣经的最佳论据是什么？ What is the best argument for Sola Scriptura?
然后你的回应是什么？ And then what's your response?
所以唯独圣经的最佳论据是圣经是我们唯一拥有的被神默示的，可靠的东西，没有其他东西 ，没有其他传统是我们可以可靠地知道实际来自这些使徒的，我们甚至可以称之为默示的。 So the best argument from sola scriptura would be that the Scriptures are the only thing that we have that are inspired by God, that are reliable, that no other things, no other traditions are that we can reliably know of that actually come from these apostles that we can even call inspired.
所以唯独圣经的最佳论据是圣经是独特的，圣经是 我们所拥有的同类中唯一确实是神所默示的东西。 So the best argument for sola scriptura is that Scripture is unique, that Scripture is the only thing that we have of its kind that is indeed God-breathed.
这真的是最好的论据，这不是我说的；这是他们说的。 That's really the best argument, and that's not me; that's what they say.
你知道，新教徒，每当他们批评，你知道，当公教 徒，你知道，在辩论唯独圣经时，新教徒总是说。 You know, Protestants, whenever they critique, you know, when Catholics, you know, are debating sola scriptura, Protestants always say.
你知道，嗯，唯独圣经的最好解释是圣经本身是独特的，对吧？ You know, um, the best explanation of sola scriptura is that Scripture is unique in itself, right?
他们都有，你听说过，他们还说，如果我要把这个搞砸了，你可 以纠正我，但基本上，2000年，大体上讲，相同的正典。 They all have, you heard, they also say, if I'm going to botch this badly, so you can correct me, but basically, 2,000 years, largely speaking, the same canon.
当然，公教徒会说，嗯，公教会把那个正典放在一起。 And of course, the Catholic would say, well, the Catholic Church put that canon together.
但不管那个，他们会说，嗯，当然，我们认同早期主教们聚 在一起并赞同那些已经被大多数基督徒广泛接受的东西。 But regardless of that, they would say, well, sure, we're good with early bishops getting together and thumbs-upping what was already largely accepted by Christian people at large.
所以我认为部分论点是圣灵，一般来说，已经吹拂在基督徒，自称基督的 人身上，超过2000年，他们从逻辑上可以看到这些书一起有意义。 So I think part of the argument is that the Holy Spirit, generally speaking, has breathed upon the Christian people, Christ-professing people, over 2,000 years, who logically can see these books make sense together.
这不需要公教会来说；如果需要的话，大多数基督徒可以通过 使用逻辑并查看过去2000年的基督教历史来确定正典。 And that doesn't take the Catholic Church to say it; pretty much Christians at large could come up with the canon if they needed to by just using logic and looking at the last 2,000 years of Christian history.
这也是我听到他们争论的。 That's what I've heard them argue as well.
这是他们提出的主张，而我回应的方式是我说，好的，为 什么你们的正典在最初1500年中找不到任何地方？ That's the claim that they make, and the way that I respond to that is I say, Okay, how come your canon cannot be found anywhere in the first 1500 years?
因为今天新教徒使用的66本书的圣经正典在任何地方都找不到。 Because the 66-book canon of Scripture that Protestants use today is not found anywhere.
他们试图就某些可能坚持66本书正典的教父做出论据；这行不通。 They try and make arguments about certain Church Fathers that may be held to the 66-book canon; it doesn't work.
我总是指出并说，好的，如果正典，你知道，如果你能得出正典，如果基督 教社区也能得出正典，为什么在早期教会中关于圣经正典有这么多争议？ And what I always point out and say, Okay, if the canon, you know, if you can arrive at the canon, if the Christian community as well can just arrive at the canon, why was there so much controversy in the early Church about the canon of Scripture?
很多人不知道，就像，仅新约本身，我们与新教徒的争议是关于旧约， 但仅新约本身，新约的三分之一，在早期教会中有九本书存在争议。 A lot of people don't know that, like, just the New Testament alone, our dispute with the Protestant is over the Old Testament, but just the New Testament alone, one-third of the New Testament, it was nine books that were disputed in the early Church.
它们是希伯来书、雅各书、犹大书、彼得前后书、约翰一二三书，以及启示录。 It was Hebrews, James, Jude, 1st and 2nd Peter, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John, and Revelation.
有九本；新约27本书的三分之一存在争议。 It was nine; one-third of the 27 books of the New Testament were disputed.
早期教会中有基督徒说彼得后书、希伯来书和启示录不是圣经。 There were Christians in the early Church that said that 2nd Peter and Hebrews and Revelation are not Scripture.
还有其他基督徒说它们是，关于那些书有争议。 There were other Christians that said there were, and there were disputes over those books.
所以我对新教徒的问题是，我会说，好的，你怎么知道谁是对的？ So then the question that I would have for the Protestant, I would say, Okay, how do you know who was right?
你怎么知道谁是正确的？ How do you know who was correct?
在所有这些争议中，他们实际上没有争议旧约。 And out of all of these disputes, they actually didn't dispute the Old Testament.
很多人不知道在早期教会中几乎没有关于旧约的争议 ，而这正是我们公教徒和新教徒现在争议的内容。 A lot of people don't know that in the early Church there was almost no dispute over the Old Testament, which is what we Catholics and Protestants dispute now.
但在早期教会中，关于新约有很多争议。 But in the early Church, there was a lot of dispute over the New Testament.
那么谁是对的？ So who was right?
无论你选择谁或谁是对的，他们的正典都与你的不匹配。 And no matter who you pick or who is right, their canon doesn't match yours.
为什么？ Why?
所以我认为很多人只是不知道事实。 So I think a lot of people just don't know the facts.
意思是有基督徒不同意，这是你所说的，但有人做了决定。 Meaning there were Christians that didn't agree is what you're saying, but somebody called the shots.
对。 Right.
那个人是谁？ And who is that somebody?
那个人是谁？ And who that somebody was?
382年罗马会议上的圣达玛稣一世教宗。 Pope St. Damasus I in the year 382 at the Council of Rome.
那是最初的会议。 That was the original council.
你实际上可以读他写的信。 You can actually read the letter that he wrote.
他在那封信中使用的语言，圣达玛稣一世教宗说，这是普世教会的正典。 The language that he uses in that letter, Pope St. Damasus I says, This is the canon for the universal Church.
他说有许多不同的正典被不同的地方教会使用，但这个正典——这些是每个普 世教会需要在其所有正典中拥有的所有书籍，因为这些是神所默示的书籍。 He says there are many different canons that different local churches use, but this canon—these are all of the books that every universal church needs to have in all of their canons because these are the books that are inspired by God.
这就是我们今天使用的公教会圣经的73本书。 And this is 73 books of the Catholic Bible that we use today.
所以阅读圣达玛稣教宗在382年罗马会议后所给的信，你读他 使用的语言，他非常有力，他说话就像他是世界的主教一样。 So read Pope St. Damasus' letter that he gave right after the Council of Rome in the year 382, and you read the language that he uses, and he's very forceful, and he's talking as if he's like the bishop of the world.
他说这是为所有教会准备的。 He said it's for all of the churches.
嗯，他是教宗。 Well, he's the Pope.
就是那件事，你知道，表明那是教宗，达玛稣教宗，你知道。 That one thing right there, you know, shows that it was the Pope, Pope Damasus, you know.
所以最近，韦斯利·赫夫上了乔·罗根的节目，实 际上我在看到周围流传的片段之前并不了解他。 So recently, Wesley Huff was on Joe Rogan, and I actually hadn't known about him before I saw the clips going around.
他做得很好。 He did a great job.
他是一位基督教护教学家，虽然他更偏向新教，他也进行辩论。 He's a Christian apologist, although he is more Protestant, and he does debates.
看起来他一直在做更多的辩论；我认为他在与罗马公教徒进行辩论。 It seems like he's been doing some more debates; I think he's doing debates with Roman Catholics.
无论如何，我最近看到了他的这个片段。 So anyways, I saw this clip with him recently.
我实际上联系了他邀请他上节目，因为我认为他真的很有天赋，我认 为我们在大多数事情上意见一致，但显然有一些关键的神学差异。 I actually reached out to him to have him on the show because I think he's really gifted, and I think we agree on most things, but there's obviously some key theological differences.
但我看到了这个片段，这是引起我注意的地方。 But I saw this clip, and this is what caught my attention.
我很好奇你对此的看法。 I'm curious your take on this.
所以这是他；他在谈论——实际上，我认为他谈论的不是 唯独圣经，而是在谈论新教圣经与公教会圣经的对比。 So here he is; he's talking about – effectively, he's talking not so much about, I think, sola scriptura as he is talking about the Protestant Bible versus the Catholic Bible.
所以让我播放这个片段。 So let me play this clip.
公教会圣经中的额外书籍从哪里来的？ Where did the extra books in the Catholic Bible come from?
是的，这是一个好问题，因为我们确实有一类书籍，有时被称为旁经。 Yeah, so that's a good question because we do have a category of books that are sometimes referred to as the Apocrypha.
所以，罗马公教徒会称它们为次经，意思是第二正典，他们会说，我认为这是准确的 ，这并不意味着在接受上是第二的或在影响上是第二的，而是在接受上是第二的。 So, Roman Catholics will refer to them as the Deuterocanon, which means second canon, and they would say, I think accurately, this doesn't mean second in reception or second in influence, but second in reception.
所以基本上我们所拥有的是在玛拉基书和马太福音之间，旧约的 最后一本书和新约的第一本书之间，有一段400年的时期。 So basically what we have is between Malachi and Matthew, the last book of the Old Testament and the first book of the New Testament, you have a period of 400 years.
现在，它有时被称为400年的沉默，但这有点用词不当， 因为在那段时间里，特别是在犹太历史上，有很多著作。 Now, it's sometimes referred to as the 400 years of silence, but that's a bit of a misnomer because there was a lot being written during that time, especially in Jewish history.
所以你有这些书被写出来，比如马加比一书和二书，多比传，等等。 And so you have these books being written, books like 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, and so on.
归根结底，对于早期基督徒来说，他们在看，他们在看，好的，我们 有所谓的犹太经文，塔纳赫，妥拉，先知书，圣卷，我们称之为旧约 ，而你有这另一组书籍，是在犹太人认为是经文的那组之后写的。 And what it comes down to is for the early Christians, they were looking and they were seeing, okay, we have what's referred to as the Jewish Scriptures, the Tanakh, the Torah, the Nevi'im, the Ketuvim, what we would call the Old Testament, and you have this other group of books which is written after that group that the Jews considered Scripture.
我们对此怎么办？ What do we do with that?
对于早期教会中的许多人来说，他们看着那些，他们说犹太人从未认为那是经文。 And for a lot of people within the early Church, they looked at that and they said the Jews never considered that Scripture.
犹太人被委托保管神的圣言，就像保罗所说的，所以因此我们不认为它们是经文。 The Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God, like Paul says, so therefore we don't consider them Scripture.
所以他是错的。 So he's wrong.
他是错的。 He's wrong.
案子结了！ Case closed.
好的。 All right.
好，让我告诉你为什么他是错的。 Well, let me tell you why he's wrong.
我不明白为什么新教徒一直这么说，因为这已经被揭穿很多次了。 And I don't understand why Protestants keep saying this, because it's been debunked so many times.
耶稣时代的犹太人没有最终确定的圣经正典。 The Jews during the time of Jesus did not have a finalized canon of Scripture.
如果我们要让我们的旧约与所有犹太人一致认为是圣经的所有书籍相匹配，你知道，在 耶稣和使徒的时代，我们在旧约中只会有五本书：摩西五经，创世记、出埃及记、利未 记、民数记和申命记，因为这些是所有犹太人群体一致认为是默示的唯一五本书。 If we are going to have our Old Testament match all of the books that all of the Jews agreed were Scripture, you know, in the time of Jesus and the Apostles, we will only have five books in the Old Testament: the books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, because those were the only five books that all groups of Jews agreed upon that they were inspired.
有一些犹太人说只有那五本是默示的。 There were some Jews that said only those five are inspired.
有其他犹太人说那五本和也许智慧文学是默示的。 There were other Jews that said those five and maybe the Wisdom literature is inspired.
还有其他犹太人说那五本和历史书是默示的，但智慧文学不是。 There were other Jews that said those five and the historical books are inspired, but not the Wisdom literature.
有不同的群体有不同的正典，所以在耶稣和使徒的时 代没有一个所有犹太人都一致同意的已确定的正典。 There were different groups that had different canons, so there was no set defined canon that all Jews agreed upon during the time of Jesus and the Apostles.
犹太人今天使用的正典直到耶稣和使徒时代之后才达成一致，大 约200年后，由那些拒绝耶稣作为弥赛亚的犹太人确定的。 The canon that the Jews use today was not agreed upon until after the time of Jesus and the Apostles, about 200 years after, by the Jewish people that rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
但在那一点上，你知道，你不跟随他们；你跟随教 会，你跟随基督和他的使徒以及他们的继承者。 But at that point, you know, you don't follow them; you follow the Church, you follow Christ and His Apostles and their successors.
所以我总是告诉人们，我说，好的，犹太人今天对教会有权威吗？ So what I always tell people, I say, Okay, do the Jews have authority over the Church today?
他们会说没有。 And they'll say no.
我会说，500年前呢？ And I'll say, What about 500 years ago?
他们500年前对教会有权威吗？ Did they have authority over the Church 500 years ago?
他们会说没有。 And they'll say no.
我说，1000年前呢？ And I say, What about 1,000 years ago?
他们会说没有。 And they'll say no.
我说，好的，为什么你认为在大约200年时， 基督徒在正典问题上必须跟随犹太人所做的？ And I say, Okay, why do you think that in around the year 200 Christians had to follow what the Jews were doing when it comes to the canon?
那些拒绝耶稣基督作为弥赛亚的犹太人？ Jews that rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah?
为什么？ Why?
他们没有意识到他们的正典是由拉比本·西拉确定的，我认为是在二世纪。 They don't realize that their canon was by the Rabbi Ben Sirah, who was, I think it was in the second century.
正是在二世纪，他为犹太人确定了这个正典。 It was in the second century that he finalized it for the Jewish people.
为什么？ Why?
为什么我们的正典必须与他们的正典匹配？ Why does our canon have to match their canon?
特别是当你考虑到在犹太人整理他们的正典的同一时期， 基督徒引用那七本次经作为默示的圣经，作为神的道。 Especially when you consider that Christians around that same time that the Jews were putting together their canon, they were quoting from those seven Deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture, as the Word of God.
这包括马加比书、多比传和其他书。 And that includes Maccabees, Tobit, and the others.
这包括，是的，你知道，多比传、犹滴传、马加比一书和二书、智慧书、德训篇，还有 第七本我忘记了：多比传、犹滴传、马加比一书和二书、智慧书、德训篇和巴录书。 And that includes, yeah, you know, Tobit, Judith, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and there's a seventh one that I'm forgetting: Tobit, Judith, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch.
这就是那七本，早期基督徒引用这些著作作为神默示的道，作为圣经。 Those are the seven, and the early Christians quoted from those writings as the inspired word of God, as Scripture.
这是一个很好的回应。 It's a great response.
所以问题是，我应该跟随谁？ So then the question is, who should I go with?
我应该跟随二世纪的犹太人所做的，还是应该跟随最初的基督徒所坚持的？ Should I go with what the Jews in the second century were doing, or should I go with what the Christians held to in the very beginning?
因为，再次，很多人没有意识到在早期教会中关于旧约没有争议；争议是关于新约的。 Because, again, a lot of people don't realize there wasn't controversy over the Old Testament in the early Church; it was over the New Testament that the controversy was.
我想指出的另一件事是，你知道谁还实际上同意我和大公教会关于圣经正典的观点吗？ And another thing that I would like to point out is that, you know who else actually agreed with me and with the Catholic Church about the canon of Scripture?
马丁·路德。 Martin Luther.
因为马丁·路德，甚至在1517年之后，在1517年、15 18年和1519年，他引用了那七本次经，并称它们为圣经。 Because Martin Luther, even after 1517, in 1517, in 1518, and in 1519, he quoted from those seven Deuterocanonical books, and he called them Scripture.
哇，我不知道那个。 Wow, I didn't know that.
是的，他称它们为神默示的道。 Yeah, he called them the inspired Word of God.
马丁·路德写了很多；我们有他的很多著作。 Martin Luther wrote a lot; we have a lot of his writings.
那么是约翰·加尔文不想要那七本书，还是路德改变了主意？ So was it John Calvin who didn't want those seven books, or was it Luther who changed his mind?
约翰·加尔文，他认为巴录书，那些书中的一本，巴录书也是默示的圣经。 So John Calvin, he thought Baruch, which is one of those books, that Baruch was inspired scripture as well.
他引用巴录书并说它是默示的圣经。 He quoted from Baruch and said it was inspired scripture.
所以今天新教徒使用的圣经正典甚至与路德的正典或加尔文的正典不符。 So the canon of scripture that Protestants use today doesn't even match Luther's canon or Calvin's canon.
疯狂！所以发生的事情是当马丁·路德与约翰· 埃克辩论时，他们进行了一场非常著名的辩论。 CRAZY So what happened was when Martin Luther was debating Johann Eck, they had a really famous debate.
那是当他们要弄清楚他们是否要革除马丁·路德的教籍时。 It was when they were going to figure out if they were going to excommunicate Martin Luther or not.
他们给了他很多机会；他们给了他三年的时间让他醒悟并停止他所做的事情。 They gave him so many chances; they gave him three years to come to his senses and to stop what he was doing.
在他与约翰·埃克的这场辩论中，他们在辩论炼狱。 In this debate that he had with Johann Eck, they were debating purgatory.
顺便说一句，路德在95条论纲中肯定了炼狱。 And by the way, just as an aside, Luther affirmed purgatory in the 95 Theses.
很多人不知道这一点。 A lot of people don't know that.
很多新教徒会说，哦，马丁·路德，他把95条论纲钉在大教堂门上，这也没有发生。 A lot of Protestants will say, Oh, Martin Luther, he put the 95 Theses on the cathedral door, which didn't happen either.
但95条论纲——就是这样！ But the 95 Theses—that's it!
我不认为他们曾经读过95条论纲，因为如果你去读它们，我不知道今 天有任何新教徒能够肯定马丁·路德在95条论纲中所肯定的内容。 I don't think they've ever read the 95 Theses because if you go and you read them, I don't know of any Protestants today that can affirm what Martin Luther affirms in the 95 Theses.
他肯定了炼狱。 He affirms purgatory.
他错误的地方是他认为炼狱中的灵魂仍然可能下地狱，教会说的是：不，你错了。 What he got wrong is that he thought that the souls in purgatory could still go to hell, and that was what the Church said: No, you're wrong.
炼狱中的灵魂最终会进入天堂。 The souls in purgatory will end up in heaven.
但无论如何，他在1517年写了他的95条论纲。他得到了三年； 教会给了他四年，几乎四年，让他悔改，让他醒悟，停止他的异端。 But anyway, so he writes his 95 Theses in 1517. He gets three years; the Church gives him four years, almost four years, to repent, to come to his senses, and to stop with his heresy.
好，在那段时间里，他引用次经；他称它们为圣经。 Well, during that time, he's quoting from the Deuterocanonical books; he's calling them Scripture.
他实际上在制定神学；他从那些书中制定教义。 He's actually formulating theology; he's formulating doctrine from those books.
但当他与约翰·埃克辩论时，约翰·埃克是一位受 教会委托的神学家，要说服马丁·路德回到共识。 But when he was debating Johann Eck, Johann Eck was a theologian that was commissioned by the Church to kind of convince Martin Luther to come to the census.
他们让约翰·埃克和他交谈，他试图与他解决问题。 They got Johann Eck to talk to him, and he's trying to work things out with him.
约翰·埃克提出马加比二书，因为他们又在谈论炼狱，对吧？ And Johann Eck brings up 2 Maccabees because they're talking about purgatory again, right?
所以他提出马加比二书12章，马丁·路德，因为他正在被 ——你实际上可以读它；你知道它被转录了——那场辩论。 So he brings up 2 Maccabees 12, and Martin Luther, because he was getting—you can actually read it; you know it's transcribed—the debate.
这很惊人。 It's amazing.
他被击垮了。 He was getting wrecked.
路德在辩论中被约翰·埃克击垮，当他拿出马加比二书时，马丁·路德有点被逼到墙角了。 Luther was getting wrecked by Yohanek in the debate, and when he pulled out 2 Maccabees, Martin Luther kind of had his back against the wall.
他像是，好吧，你知道吗？ He was like, Well, you know what?
他说，嗯，我不认为你可以在这场辩论中使用马加比二书。 He said, Um, I don't think you can use 2 Maccabees in this debate.
他们说，为什么？ And they said, Why?
他说，因为马加比二书不是，那不是圣经。 And he said, Because 2 Maccabees isn't, that's not Scripture.
你在开玩笑吧！ You're kidding!
那是他第一次被记录说它不是圣经吗？ Was that the first time he was on record saying it wasn't Scripture?
是的，那是第一次。 Yes, that was the first time.
因为他在这个问题上被击败了？ Because he was getting demolished on it?
他们说，为什么？ And they said, Why?
他说，嗯，你难道不知道关于那本书有争议，因为圣 耶柔米不确定那本书最初是否包含在希伯来正典中？ And he said, Well, don't you know that there's controversy over that book because St. Jerome wasn't sure if that book was originally included in the Hebrew canon?
所以，既然我们不知道，他说，我不认为我们从马加比二书得出教义结论是正确的。 So, since we don't know, he said, I don't think it's right for us to be arriving at doctrinal conclusions from 2 Maccabees.
但这里有个问题：当他说那个并试图用圣耶柔米来证明他的立 场时，因为圣耶柔米，他有一个我们现在知道是错误的想法。 But here's the problem: when he said that and he tried to use St. Jerome to justify his position, because St. Jerome, he had an idea that we now know is false.
这不是真的。 It's not true.
嗯，我正在涉及很多——好的。 Um, and I'm getting into a lot of—okay.
圣耶柔米，圣耶柔米受圣达玛稣一世教宗的委托将圣 经翻译成拉丁文，武加大译本，武加大译本，对吧？ St. Jerome, St. Jerome was commissioned by Pope Saint Damasus I to translate the Scriptures into Latin, the Vulgate, the Vulgate, right?
但圣耶柔米，嗯，他想直接从希伯来文翻译旧约，所以他去找犹太拉比，这样他 们可以教他圣经希伯来文，这样他就可以从圣经希伯来文直接翻译成拉丁文。 But St. Jerome, um, he wanted to translate the Old Testament directly from Hebrew, so he went to Jewish rabbis so that they could teach him Biblical Hebrew, so that he could make a direct translation from Biblical Hebrew into Latin.
当他与犹太拉比一起学习时，他注意到那些犹太拉比在他们的正典中没有那 七本书，因为，再次，他们在耶稣时代后200年才确定了他们的正典。 When he was studying with Jewish rabbis, he noticed that those Jewish rabbis did not have those seven books in their canon because, again, they arrived at their canon 200 years after the time of Jesus.
圣耶柔米，他认为也许是因为这些书最初不是用希 伯来文写的，因为这是他从犹太拉比那里听到的。 And St. Jerome, he thought maybe it's because these books aren't originally written in Hebrew, because that's what he heard from the Jewish rabbis.
他说，如果这些书最初不是用希伯来文写的，那么也许我们不应该认为它们是圣经。 He said, If these books weren't originally written in Hebrew, then maybe we shouldn't consider them Scripture.
它会是什么语言？ What language would it have been?
希腊文？ Greek?
他担心它们是用希腊文写的。 He was concerned they were written in Greek.
是的，他说所有这些书都是在希腊-罗马时期写的，所以它们是用希腊文写的。 Yeah, he said all these books were written during the Greco-Roman period, so they were written in Greek.
所以也许因为它们是用希腊文写的，也许它们不应该被认为是犹太人拥有的圣经。 So maybe because they were written in Greek, maybe they shouldn't be considered to be the Scriptures that the Jews had.
那只是耶柔米的推测，他之所以能这样做是因为圣经的正典还没有被教条式地定义。 That was just speculation on Jerome's part, which he was able to do because the canon of Scripture had not been dogmatically defined.
所以因为圣经的正典还没有被教条式地定义，他可以自由地对这些事情感到疑惑。 So because the canon of Scripture had not been dogmatically defined, he was free to maybe wonder about these things.
我们现在是哪一年？ What year are we at right now?
所以这是在4世纪晚期，所以是在382年之后，当圣达玛稣教宗说，这是圣经的正典。 So this is in the late 4th century, so it was after 382 when Pope St. Damasus said, This is the canon of Scripture.
大约是在那个时候，所以大约是370年代，380年代，大约那个时候。 It was around that time, so it was like in the 370s, 380s, around that time.
所以耶柔米，他只是在思考，他实际上在他对这些书的评论 中写了这个，因为他仍然翻译了那70本真正的正典书籍。 And so Jerome, he was just thinking, and he actually writes this in his commentaries to the books because he still translated those 70 real canonical books.
但在他的评论中，他对那些书的序言中，他说，这些书在犹太人的希伯 来圣经中找不到，所以也许，你知道，也许它们不应该被认为是圣经。 But in his commentaries, his preface to those books, he said, These books are not found among the Hebrew Scriptures of the Jews, so maybe, you know, maybe they shouldn't be considered Scriptures.
也许它们是家用的，是的，对吧？ Maybe they're domestic, yeah, right?
对，但是人们，你知道，忽略了圣耶柔米说他说，但他说，我可能是错的。 Right, but then people, you know, leave out the fact that St. Jerome said he said, but he said, I could be wrong.
听从教宗。 Listen to the Pope.
听从教宗所说的。 Listen to what the Pope says.
他说教宗可以告诉我们这是否是圣经。 He said the Pope can tell us if this is Scripture or not.
他说，在所有事情上听从教宗。 He said, Listen to the Pope in all things.
教宗说，是的，这是圣经。 And the Pope said, Yep, there's Scripture.
但问题是：我们现在知道圣耶柔米的前提是错误的。 But here's the thing: St. Jerome's premise we now know is wrong.
我们知道它是错误的，因为我们发现了那七本次经中的五本的希伯来文版本。 We know it's wrong because we discovered Hebrew versions of five of those seven Deuterocanonical books.
我们是如何发现的？ How did we discover that?
通过死海古卷，我们发现了这些书的希伯来文版本，也有其他著作，如教父的著作，提 到这些书是希伯来文的，它们是用希伯来文写的；它们只是没有以那种语言保存下来。 With the Dead Sea Scrolls, we discovered Hebrew versions of these books, and also there were other writings, like those of the Church Fathers, that mentioned that these books are Hebrew, that they were in Hebrew; they just didn't survive in that language.
所以即使我们没有死海古卷，我们有其他教父说这些书是用希伯来文 写的，现在我们确定那七本中的五本确实最初是用希伯来文写的。 So even if we didn't have the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have other Church Fathers that say that these books were in Hebrew, and we know now for sure that five of those seven were indeed originally written in Hebrew.
目前，我们认为只有两本是用希腊文写的，它们是智慧书和马加比二书。 The only two that, as of right now, we think were written in Greek were the Book of Wisdom and the Second Maccabees.
马加比一书是用希伯来文写的，用希伯来语，其他四本也是如此。 First Maccabees was written in Hebrew, in the Hebrew language, and so were the other four.
但智慧书和马加比二书是我们确定的——好吧，我们 可能知道的——确实最初是用希腊文写的唯一两本。 But Wisdom and Second Maccabees were the only ones that we know for sure—well, we probably know—were indeed originally written in Greek.
但其他的最初是用希伯来文写的。 But the other ones were originally written in Hebrew.
所以圣耶柔米的前提，他是错的，因为他只是不知道。 So St. Jerome's premise, he was wrong because he just didn't know.
所以现在我对新教徒的问题是，好的，如果你为你的正典求助于圣耶柔米 ，我们现在知道，如果你坚持圣耶柔米在这里的论点，现在你必须至少将 那五本包括在你的正典中，因为我们现在知道它们是用希伯来文写的。 So now my question to the Protestants is, like, okay, if you appeal to St. Jerome for your canon, we now know that if you're sticking to St. Jerome's argument here, now you have to include at least those five in your canon because now we know that they were written in Hebrew.
那么为什么你现在的正典中没有它们？ So why don't you have them in your canon now?
好吧，而且，如果他是你的权威，圣耶柔米实际上是在说，我不是你的权威。 Well, and also, if he's your authority, St. Jerome is literally saying, I'm not your authority.
没错。 Exactly.
就像，不要让我成为你的权威。 Like, don't make me your authority.
跟随教宗，这是相当重要的，我要说。 Follow the Pope, which is pretty significant, I would say.
这是完全连贯的。 It is completely coherent.
就像你接受他一样。 It's like you take Him.
我的意思是，挑选教父们的言论并说，嗯，我们喜欢他们说 的这个；我们不喜欢他们说的那个，这是一件有趣的事情。 I mean, it is an interesting thing to cherry-pick the Church Fathers and say, Well, we like this, what they say; we don't like this, what they say.
但谁是决定你认为教父们说的或不说的什么是正确的仲裁者？ But who's the arbiter of deciding what the Church Fathers say or don't say that you think is correct?
我的意思是，对我来说，这一切都回到了——你知道我是公教的皈依者，所以我经历了很多 深入研究我的新教成长背景和公教之间的神学差异的过程，还看了东正教，看了其他宗教。 And I mean, it all comes back to, for me, and you know I'm a Catholic convert, so I went through a lot of these processes of delving deep into the theological differences between my Protestant upbringing and Catholicism, and looking at Orthodoxy, and looking at like other religions.
在某一点上，甚至在我明显——对我来说很清楚，显然，基督教是真实的——但归根结底 ，就像，谁将对基督以来2000年来教会的解释和传统，坦率地说，做出最终决定？ At one point, even before I obviously—clear to me, obviously, Christianity is true—but at the end of the day, it's like, who is going to make the final call on the interpretation and the traditions, quite frankly, of the Church for 2,000 years since Christ?
谁来做决定？ Who's going to make the call?
是我自己吗？ Is it myself?
是我还是我的牧师，无论我选择参加什么教会？ Is it me or my pastor, whatever given church I choose to attend?
或者可能是别人？ Or is it somebody else, maybe?
阴间的门不能胜过它。 The gates of hell will not prevail.
可能有更多权威的其他人。 Somebody else that might have a little bit more authority.
而圣耶柔米，所有新教徒喜欢为圣经正典求助的那个人，他说，不，你要跟随教宗。 And St. Jerome, the guy that all Protestants like to appeal to for the canon of Scripture, he said, No, you follow the Pope.
他说，这只是我自己的意见；这只是我现在的想法，但要跟随教宗所说的。 He said, This is just my own opinion; this is just what I'm thinking right now, but follow what the Pope says.
教宗可以告诉我们。 The Pope can tell us.
他们总是省略那部分。 And they always leave that part out.
但回到马丁·路德和约翰·埃克，当马丁·路德说，你不能在这场辩论 中使用马加比二书，因为耶柔米说他不确定它是否可以，你知道，如果 我们可以从中得出教义，因为我们不知道它最初是否用希伯来语写的。 But going back to Martin Luther and Johann Eck, when Martin Luther said, You can't use Second Maccabees in this debate because Jerome said he wasn't sure if it could be, you know, if we could get doctrine from it because we don't know if it was originally written in the Hebrew language.
好吧，现在，因为马丁·路德，现在他试图保持 一致，现在他不得不对其他六本书说同样的话。 Well, now, because Martin Luther, now he's trying to kind of be consistent, now he had to say the same thing about the other six.
所以马丁·路德在将圣经翻译成德语时所做的——另一个我也听到韦斯特霍夫说的神话 ，你知道，我听到他说马丁·路德，你知道，将圣经翻译成通俗语言——那不是真的。 So what Martin Luther did when he translated the Bible into German—and another myth that I've also heard Westhoff say, you know, I've heard him say that Martin Luther, you know, translated the Bible into a vernacular language—that's not true.
在马丁·路德做他的翻译之前很久，公教会就已经委托了至少18种不同的德语圣经译本。 There were already at least 18 different German translations of the Bible commissioned by the Catholic Church long before Martin Luther did his.
我们已经有了大约18种；我认为大约有17到19种不同的德语圣经译本已经存在。 We already had about 18; I think it was like between 17 and 19 different German translations of the Bible that already existed.
所以马丁·路德为普通人能够阅读它的说法不是真的。 So it's not true that Martin Luther for the everyday person to be able to read it.
是的，所以马丁·路德是第一个将圣经翻译成通俗语言的人这说法不是真的。 Yeah, so it's not true that Martin Luther was the first one to translate the Bible into vernacular language.
那是另一个神话。 That's another myth.
但当马丁·路德做他的翻译时，他放入了那七本书，七本次经，新教徒称之为旁经。 But when Martin Luther did his translation, he put those seven books, the seven Deuterocanonical books, which Protestants call Apocrypha.
他没有从圣经中移除它们。 He didn't remove them from the Bible.
那是公教徒方面的一个神话。 That's a myth on the part of the Catholics.
公教徒认为马丁·路德从圣经中移除了那些书。 Catholics think that Martin Luther removed those books from the Bible.
那不是真的；那是一个神话，公教徒需要停止这样说。 That's not true; that's a myth, and Catholics need to stop saying that.
马丁·路德把它们放在旧约和新约之间的一个单独的附录中。 Martin Luther put them in a separate appendix in between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
他说，我们要把这七本书放在它们自己的小组里， 因为我们不知道我们是否可以称它们为默示的。 He said, We're going to put these seven books in their own little group in between because we don't know if we can call them inspired or not.
然后，随着时间的推移，那个附录被移到了圣经 的后面，所以是旧约，新约，然后是那七本书。 And then, over time, that appendix got moved to the back of the Bible, so Old Testament, New Testament, and then those seven books.
然后，在1823年，苏格兰圣经公会决定完全去掉它们，因为印刷更薄的圣经更便宜。 And then, in the year 1823, the Scottish Bible Society decided to get rid of them altogether because it was cheaper to print skinnier Bibles.
哇。 Wow.
这就是为什么那些书被遗漏了。 And that's why those books were left out.
知道这一点真是太疯狂了。 That is so wild to know that.
所以你说马丁·路德从未明确地说，这不是默示的圣经。 So you're saying Martin Luther never definitively said, This is not inspired Scripture.
他说，你应该读它。 He said, You should read it.
这就是它。 Here it is.
我们不是100%确定。 We're not 100% sure.
然后苏格兰圣经公会，试图省钱节俭，说，让我们把它删掉吧。 And then a Scottish Bible Society, trying to save some money and be frugal, said, Let's just cut it.
马丁·路德从来，从来，从来没有说过这不是默示的。 Martin Luther never, ever, ever said this is not inspired.
他只是说我们不确定它是否是默示的，所以让我们， 让我们，让我们在进行教义争议时尽量避开那些。 He just said we're not sure if it's inspired or not, so let's, let's, let's try to avoid those when we're having doctrinal disputes.
这就是他说的。 That's what he said.
是的，那些书是在1823年被移除的。 And then, yeah, it was in 1823 when those books were removed.
所以当你知道那段历史时，再次，问题是，好的，我们怎么知道？ So when you know that history, again, the question, okay, how do we know?
你已经深入其中了。 You're in deep.
是苏格兰圣经公会，他们是能够告诉我们它们是否是默示的人吗？ Is the Scottish Bible Society, are they the ones that are able to tell us if they're inspired or not?
我喜欢这个！ I love this!
我有一部分是苏格兰人；我喜欢苏格兰人。 I'm part Scottish; I love the Scotch.
那么你怎么知道？ So how do you know?
他们是教宗吗？ Are they the Pope?
我们还没有苏格兰教宗，但那会很酷。 We haven't had a Scottish Pope yet, but that would be cool.
也许有一天。 Maybe one day.
也许弗兰科可能会是教宗。 Maybe Franco might be the Pope.
也许我会成为教宗。 Maybe I'll be the Pope.
我会和方济各教宗一起提交我的申请，你知道。 I'll submit my application along with Pope Francis, you know.
但当他获得天上的赏赐时，我会提交我的申请。 But when he moves on to his heavenly reward, I'll submit my application.
或者他可能会走本笃的路线，只是提前退休。 Or he might do the Benedict way and just take an early retirement.
但我确实想谈谈教宗，因为那是另一个在不同护教学圈子中有很多活跃辩 论的领域，我喜欢我看到你说的一些东西，这些话击中了正确的调子。 But I do want to talk about the Pope because that's another area that there's a lot of lively debate in different apologetic circles, and I like some of the stuff I've seen you saying, which hits the right tone.
我的意思是，我从哪里开始呢？ I mean, where can I start with this?
所以有一群网上非常受欢迎的公教YouTube创作者，他们对圣父非常批评 ，我想最近有一个视频片段，与查理·柯克和我们的朋友迈克尔·诺尔斯的。 So there's a group of online, really popular Catholic YouTubers who are very critical of the Holy Father, and there was a recent clip, I think, with Charlie Kirk and our friend Michael Knowles.
他们俩都是朋友；我喜欢他们俩。 Both of them are friends; I love both of them.
他们是了不起的人。 They're amazing guys.
如果查理·克鲁克竞选总统，我会投票给他。 If Charlie Crook ever runs for president, I'm voting for him.
太棒了，是的。 Amazing, yeah.
如果查理·克鲁克竞选总统，我100%会投票给他。 100% I'm voting for Charlie Crook if he runs for president.
太棒了，是的，非常可靠，了不起的人。 Amazing, yeah, super solid, amazing people.
他们进行了一场辩论，很短；让我们甚至称之为关于圣父的讨论。 They had a debate, very short; let's call it even a discussion about the Holy Father.
让我们很快地看一下，然后我想谈谈泰勒·马歇 尔对圣父的一些批评，并听听你对此的看法。 Let's watch that really quick, and then I want to talk about some of Taylor Marshall's criticisms of the Holy Father and get your take on that.
所以我对你的问题是，因为你对公教信仰是如此的鼓舞，诺尔斯 先生，你会给那些试图向世界传播对圣餐之爱的人什么建议？ So my question to you, because you're such an inspiration to Catholicism, Mr. Knowles, what advice would you give to somebody who's trying to spread the love of the Eucharist to the world?
好的，嗯，你知道你要做这件事是很棒的。 Okay, well, you know that's wonderful that you're going to do that.
我认为这很棒。 I think it's great.
大多数时候，人们说，迈克尔，我想开始一个播客。 Most of the time, people say, Michael, I want to start a podcast.
你有什么建议？ What's your advice?
我的建议是，不要，因为太多人已经有了，我认为现在 每个75岁以下的白人男性都按法律或什么有一个。 And my advice is, Don't, because too many people have them, and I think every white man under the age of 75 has one now by law or something.
但这是我记忆中第一次有人提出一些新的内容项目。 But this is the first time in memory that someone has proposed some new content project.
我想，太好了，你应该做那个。 I've thought, Great, you should do that.
那真的很好。 That's really good.
我的建议是你应该诵读圣托马斯阿奎那在学习或写作或演讲前会做的祷告。 And my advice is you should recite the St. Thomas Aquinas prayer that he would have before study or writing or speaking.
我在情感上不喜欢它。 I don't like it emotionally.
那个祷告很美，然后你应该做的是多祷告一点。 That prayer is beautiful, and then what you should do is pray a little bit more.
祷告是第一选择，而不是最后的选择。 Praying is the first resort, not the last resort.
然后这是一些事情。 And then this is something.
对不起，我必须很快地做一个快速转场。 I'm sorry, I got to do a quick segue really quick.
原谅我，伙计们，但我只是——这就像是一个关于祷告的公益广告。 Forgive me for this, guys, but I just—this is like a PSA for prayer.
我们最近在节目中有伊玛库莱。 We had Immaculée on the show recently.
你知道谁幸存于卢旺达种族灭绝，被锁在浴室里90天。 You know who survived the Rwandan genocide, was locked in a bathroom for 90 days.
她自己的邻居试图杀她；她自己的邻居谋杀了她的父母和她的兄弟。 Her own neighbor tried to kill her; her own neighbor murdered her parents and her brother.
就像，疯狂的故事。 Like, just insane story.
这个女人是一个不可思议的人，但她说，你知道， 一百万卢旺达人因为这种种族灭绝而被杀，对吧？ This woman is an incredible person, but she was saying that, you know, a million Rwandans were killed because of this genocide, right?
他们互相开战。 They went to war with each other.
无论如何，她逃脱了。 Anyway, she escaped.
她最终成为这个令人惊叹的——她是公教徒，这个令人惊叹的。 She ends up being this amazing—she's Catholic, this amazing.
她喜欢玫瑰经，她喜欢祷告，她全是关于宽恕。 She loves the Rosary, she loves to pray, she's all about forgiveness.
我问她，你对美国有什么看法？ And I was asking her, What do you think about the United States?
就像，这真的很艰难，你知道，我们有的分歧，堕胎——这里真的是一场大战。 Like, it's like really tough, you know, the divisiveness we have, abortion—it's like really a big battle here.
她说，我非常有希望，因为这里的人祷告更多，而且看起来更多的美国人正在祷告。 And she said, I am so hopeful because people here pray more, and more Americans, it seems, are praying.
你知道，我们有来自Hallow的亚历克斯——向我们在Hallow的朋友们致敬。 And, you know, we had Alex from Hallow—shout out to our friends at Hallow.
我的意思是，所有这些倡议都是为了带回祷告的力量，并提醒人们这是最重 要的事情：我们与造物主、与圣灵以及显然与我们的主耶稣基督的关系。 I mean, all of these initiatives to bring back the power of prayer and remind people that this is the most important thing: our relationship with our Creator and with the Holy Spirit and with, obviously, our Lord Jesus Christ.
所以，无论如何，祷告将会拯救这一天，但我喜欢迈克尔·诺尔斯刚才做的那些。 So, anyways, prayer is going to save the day, but I love that Michael Knowles just did that.
是的，他给出了很好的建议。 Right, he gives great advice.
是的，他确实如此。 Yeah, he does.
他真的是这样。 He really does.
做得好，迈克尔！ Nice job, Michael!
我想和迈克尔·诺尔斯一起抽雪茄。 I want to have a cigar with Michael Knowles.
来参加现场行动晚会。 Come to the live action gala.
他为我们主持，之后他非常慷慨地抽雪茄好几个小时。 He emcees it for us, and he very generously smokes cigars afterwards for hours.
我的意思是，我大约凌晨1点离开，因为我想，我得回去睡觉，照顾我的孩子。 I mean, I leave at like 1 AM because I'm like, I've got to get back to bed, get my kids.
他和所有其他人，比如你，都在那里抽烟，谈论神学。 Him and all of the other people, like you, are out there smoking, talking theology.
我们这些「鲭鱼捕捉者」（指公教徒），我们明白。 We Mackerel Snappers, we get it.
我们不需要每年重新发明轮子。 We don't need to reinvent the wheel every year.
我们有2000年来比你我聪明得多的人，他们已经思考过这些问题，辩论过这些问题。 We got 2000 years of people who are much smarter than you and I who have thought this out, who have debated these questions.
所以如果你只是带来那个，如果你传达那个——我现在正试图说服查理接受这个。 So if you just bring that, if you convey that—I'm trying to sell Charlie on this right now.
我知道我在回答你，但我真的是在对查理说话。 I know I'm answering you, but I'm really speaking to Charlie.
如果你只是做那个，那就是你所做的一切。 If you just do that, that's all you're doing.
你只是在讲述这个故事。 You're just telling the story.
你在讲述有史以来最伟大的故事，你拥有信仰宝 库，你有训导权在你背后作为解释的诠释学。 You're telling the greatest story ever told, and you have the deposit of faith, and you have the Magisterium behind you as a hermeneutic of interpretation.
但只要做那个，你知道，真诚地做，尽你最大的努力去做，我想会很精彩。 But just do that, you know, and do that in sincerity and do that with the best of your effort, and I think it'll be wonderful.
作为一个喜爱公教徒的福音派信徒，我喜欢你在做这件事。 As an evangelical who loves Catholics, I love that you're doing it.
但让我修改一下你所说的。 But let me just edit what you say.
这是重点；这是你没有抓住的一个大问题，迈克尔。 Here's the point; it's a big one you didn't catch, Michael.
你的目标应该是把人带到耶稣面前，而不是公教。 It's that your goal should be to bring people to Jesus, not Catholicism.
等一下。 So hold on.
有什么区别？ What's the difference?
等一下。 Hold on.
所以我会问查理·克鲁克，我会说，好的，查理，哪些宗派对你来说不好？ And so what I would ask Charlie Crook, I would say, Okay, Charlie, what denominations are not good for you?
如果有人要成为基督徒，哪些宗派是好的，哪些宗派不是？ If someone's going to come in to become a Christian, what denominations are good and what denominations are not?
听起来他是在说随你喜欢。 Sounds like he's saying whatever you please.
但我知道他会说，是的，好的，所以如果有人要成为公教徒，你会同意的，查理？ But I know he would say, Yeah, okay, so if someone were to become Catholic, you'd be cool with that, Charlie?
他像是，是的，当然。 And he's like, Yeah, sure.
你像是，好的，所以他刚才说的话，我会说这就像我要说，「你知道吗？ And you're like, Okay, so the statement that he just made, I would say that it's the same as if I were to say, 'You know what?
只要把人带到耶稣面前，伙计。 Just bring people to Jesus, man.
你不需要读圣经。 You don't need to read the Bible.
你需要圣经做什么？ What do you need the Bible for?
只要来到耶稣面前。 Just come to Jesus.
只要把你的信心放在耶稣身上。 Just put your faith in Jesus.
你需要圣经做什么？」 What do you need the Bible for?'
他会说那是荒谬的说法。 He would say that's a ridiculous statement.
同样地，说你可以没有他的教会而拥有耶稣基督，那是荒谬 的说法，因为圣经告诉我们，耶稣基督的教会是神的机构。 Well, in the same way, saying that you can have Jesus Christ without His Church, that's a ridiculous statement because the Bible tells us that the Church of Jesus Christ is a divine institution.
圣经告诉我们，教会是道成肉身在地上的延续。 The Bible tells us that the Church is the continuation of the Incarnation on Earth.
道成肉身通过他的教会继续，因为我们，作为教会，是基督身体的成员。 The Incarnation continues through His Church because we, as the Church, are members of the Body of Christ.
没有他的身体你不能拥有基督。 You cannot have Christ without His Body.
那是涅斯托里派异端，在431年的以弗所会议上已经解决了。 That's the heresy of Nestorianism, which was settled in the year 431 at the Council of Ephesus.
没有他的身体你不能拥有基督。 You can't have Christ without His Body.
没有他的教会你不能拥有基督。 You can't have Christ without His Church.
你做不到。 You can't do it.
没有圣经你不能拥有基督。 You can't have Christ without Scripture.
没有他的教会你不能拥有它。 You can't have it without His Church.
我想查理可能会说，嗯，是的，当然你需要教会，但那不一定是公教会。 I think Charlie might say, Well, yeah, of course you need church, but that doesn't have to be the Catholic Church.
那可能是他的回应。 That would be probably his response.
再次，我们会邀请查理上节目；他可以自己发言。 Again, we'll have Charlie on the show; he can speak for himself.
我很乐意，是的。 I would love to, yeah.
是的，我们将在这里安排一些辩论。 Yeah, we're going to line up some debates here.
我很想和查理交谈。 I would love to talk to Charlie.
你们怎么看？ What do you guys think?
我们应该在莉拉·罗斯播客上进行更多辩论吗？ Should we do more debates on the Lila Rose podcast?
我会与查理辩论，同时我也会与自己辩论。 I'll debate Charlie, and I'll debate myself at the same time.
开玩笑的。 Just kidding.
好吧，我们可以组队，或者也许让特伦特·霍恩也加入进来。 Well, we can team up, or maybe get Trent Horn in here too.
所以他们可以说你去什么教会无关紧要；只要你去教会，你可以去任何教会。 So they can say it doesn't matter what church you go to; you can go to any as long as you're going to a church.
这是符合圣经的。 It's biblical.
我认为他们会争辩说它必须符合圣经。 I think they would argue it has to be biblical.
我会说，好的，我会说，好吧，我们可以去街上的一个教会，它声称是一个以圣 经为基础的教会，并且说他们的信仰和他们做事的方式，那些都是符合圣经的。 And I would say, okay, and I would say, all right, well, we can go to one church down the street that claims to be a Bible-based church and that says that their beliefs and that their ways of doing things, those are biblical.
然后去街上更远的一个教会，它完全与另一个教会，第一个教会相矛盾，并且说他们 做事的方式和他们的信仰，他们的教导是完全符合圣经的，而另一个教会是错误的。 Then go to a church farther down the street that completely contradicts the other church, the first church, and that says that their ways of doing things and their beliefs, their teachings are completely biblical and that the other church is wrong.
所以你有所有这些相互竞争的教会。 So you have all of these competing churches.
他们都使用同一本圣经，但他们有不同的教义，不同的信仰，不同的神学。 They all use the same Bible, but they have different doctrines, different beliefs, different theology.
但我们从圣经知道，我们知道圣经告诉我们，教会必须在教义上团结一致。 But we know from the Bible, we know that the Bible tells us that the Church has to be united in doctrine.
圣经说我们需要在信仰上，在教义上团结一致。 The Bible says that we need to be united in the faith, in doctrine.
所以如果你有两个在教义上不同意的教会，我们知道那些教会中的一个或两 个都不能是耶稣基督的教会，因为我们知道耶稣基督的教会必须是合一的。 So if you have two churches that disagree on doctrine, we know that one of those churches or both of those churches can't be the Church of Jesus Christ because we know that the Church of Jesus Christ has to be one.
所以我的问题是，好的，哪个教会有正确的教义？ So my question would be, okay, which church has the correct doctrines?
因为在这个国家，我们有数以万计的教会。 Because in this country, we have tens of thousands of them.
我知道很多新教徒不喜欢三万分之十的数字或者无论是什么。 And I know that a lot of Protestants don't like the tenth out the thirty thousand number or whatever it is.
我可以使用那个数字的唯一原因是因为所有的非宗派福音派教会。 The only reason that I'm okay with using that number is because of all of the non-denominational evangelical churches.
每个非宗派福音派教会都是自己的宗派，对吧？ Each non-denominational evangelical church is its own denomination, right?
我们在这个国家有数以万计的这样的教会，所以这意味着我们 有数以万计的宗派，因为它们与任何其他教会都没有共融。 And we have tens of thousands of those here in this country, so that means we have tens of thousands of denominations because they're not in communion with any other church.
对，我的意思是我在成长过程中有这种第一手经验，因为我的教会是一 个非宗派教会，它有点像长老会，然后就像一种以圣经为基础的教会。 Right, I mean I have this first-hand experience of this growing up because my church was a non-denominational church that had sort of Presbyterian and then like just kind of a Bible-based church.
那些是根源，对吧？ Those are the roots, right?
然后它非常像一个以圣经为基础的教会，非常福音派，非常关于把人带到主那里。 And then it was very much a Bible-based church, very evangelical, very much about like bringing people into the Lord.
非常美丽，就像教会中有很多美丽的信仰。 Very beautiful, like a lot of beautiful faith in the church.
我相信圣灵在人们的生活中工作，因为他倾向于在人们的生活中工作，就是这样。 I believe the Holy Spirit was working in people's lives as He tends to work in people's lives, period.
对吧？ Right?
但我记得我父亲是一位长老，他们正在重写，比如，我们教会对婚姻的教导是什么？ But I remember my dad was an elder, and they were kind of rewriting, like, what is our church teaching on marriage?
我们教会对离婚的教导是什么？ What's our church teaching on divorce?
我们教会对我们是否做尼西亚信经的教导是什么？ What's our church teaching on do we do the Nicene Creed?
我们不做吗？ Do we not?
我们对圣餐做什么？ What do we do with communion?
我的意思是，在教会的治理和人们的信仰和道德方面，不可避免地出现了这么多神学问题。 I mean, there are so many theological issues that inevitably came up in terms of the governance of the church and the faith and morals of the people.
我记得我父亲最终离开了他作为长老的职位，因为有一位敬拜 牧师想要离婚，得到了离婚，他们打算留下这位敬拜牧师。 And I remember my dad ended up leaving his position as an elder because there was a worship pastor who wanted a divorce, got a divorce, and they were going to retain the worship pastor.
但然后这是一个大问题，如果他再婚，这是个问题吗？ But then it was this big sticky thing of now if he remarries, is this an issue?
他们不得不字面上重写他们的教义，以适应他们的神职 人员或其他人的行为，说在某些情况下离婚是可以的。 And they had to literally rewrite their doctrine to accommodate the behavior of their clerical staff or whatever to say that in some situations divorce is okay.
所以这是一个无尽的变化兔子洞，再次，我不是试图嘲笑它或取笑它。 So it's this endless rabbit hole of changes, which again, I'm not trying to mock it or make fun of it.
对于那些面对这些艰难的神学道德问题而没有明确 权威可以求助的人，我有很多同理心和同情心。 I have a lot of empathy for and sympathy for people who are facing these tough theological moral questions who don't have a clear authority to go to.
他们可以指向圣经，但当对如何解释圣经有分歧时，就有点各自为政了。 They can point at the Bible, but when there's disagreement about how to interpret that Bible, it's kind of a free-for-all.
我认为我们都可以同意的一件事是，我们都试图用作权威的圣经告诉我们去教会。 One of the things I think we can all agree upon is that the Bible that we all try to use as our authority tells us to go to the Church.
圣经在马太福音18章告诉我们，你实际上可以去找权威，那些长老，那些在 教会中的监督者，他们可以告诉我们什么是真实的，什么不是，什么是真的， 什么不是。他们可以约束我们；他们可以把我们约束在教导上，在纪律上。 The Bible tells us in Matthew 18 that you can actually go to the authorities, the people that are the elders, that are the overseers in the Church, and that they can tell us what's real and what isn't, what's true and what isn't. They can bind us; they can bind us to teachings, to disciplines.
甚至提摩太前书3:15说，教会是真理的柱石和根基。 Even 1 Timothy 3:15 says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
所以如果我们对什么是真的，什么不是真的有争议，让我们去教会。 So if we have a dispute about what is true and what isn't, let's go to the Church.
但再次，这有点循环，因为，嗯，这就是我们试图弄清楚的：哪个教会？ But again, that's kind of circular because, well, that's what we're trying to figure out: which Church?
因为我们有所有这些相互不同意的教会。 Because we have all of these churches that disagree with each other.
所以现在你必须做的是你必须问更多问题，更深入地 说，好的，哪个教会实际上可以追溯到耶稣基督？ So now what you have to do is you have to ask more questions and go deeper and say, okay, which Church actually goes back to Jesus Christ?
那里有与詹姆斯·怀特关于公教会权威的辩论。 And there was that debate with James White about the authority of the Catholic Church.
对。 Right.
嗯，你认为什么是，我想，我们在这里有点跳来跳去，因为 我想谈谈查理在与迈克尔·诺尔斯的辩论中的另一个评论。 Um, what would you say is, and I want to, we're kind of jumping around here because I want to get to one other comment that Charlie made in this um debate with Michael Knolls.
但你认为对新教徒来说，什么是公教会权威是符合圣经的最佳论据？ But what would you say is the best argument for the authority of the Catholic Church that it's biblical for Protestants?
你可以说，看，圣经就在这里说耶稣基督的教会是符合圣经的。 You can say, look, the Bible says right here that the Church of Jesus Christ is biblical.
抱歉，耶稣基督的教会是一个权威，一个我们有义务遵循的明确权威。 I'm sorry, that the Church of Jesus Christ is an authority, a definitive authority that we have an obligation to follow.
圣经教导我们，我们都可以达成同样的共识，最好的论据是它就在圣经中。 The Bible teaches us that we can all come to the same agreement, and the best argument is that it is in the Bible.
圣经告诉我们这些事情，圣经告诉我们耶稣给了使徒们全部权柄，那些使徒，他们通过按手 将全部权柄给了人，那些人又按手在其他人身上，那个权柄继续存在，一直延续到今天。 The Bible tells us these things, and the Bible tells us that Jesus gave full authority to the Apostles, and those Apostles, they gave full authority to men by the laying on of hands, and that those men laid their hands on other men, and that that authority continues, and it continues to this present day.
这就是使徒继承。 It's apostolic succession.
所以，从耶稣基督时代开始的2000年按手传承。 So, 2000 years of the laying on of hands in the time of Jesus Christ.
是的。 Yes.
这就是我们的祭司职分。 And that's our priesthood.
是的，仅使徒继承就非常重要。 Yes, and apostolic succession alone, that's very important.
这就是你开始的地方。 That's where you start.
但我们必须记住，因为这是公教徒和新教徒一致同意的一件事：我们都同意 耶稣基督的教会是独一、圣洁、大公（意思是普世的）和使徒的，对吧？ But we have to remember, because here's the one thing that Catholics and Protestants agree upon: we all agree that the Church of Jesus Christ is one, it's holy, it's Catholic, meaning universal, and it's apostolic, right?
所以我们要做的就是找出哪个是真正的教会，找到拥 有这四个支柱的教会：独一、圣洁、大公、使徒的。 So all we have to do in figuring out which is the true Church is find the Church that has all four of those pillars: one, holy, Catholic, apostolic.
在世界上所有的基督教共融中，只有一个，只有一个拥有这 四个支柱，那就是公教会：独一、圣洁、大公、使徒的。 Of all of the Christian communions in the world, there is only one, and only one, that has all four of those, and it's the Catholic Church: one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic.
东正教，他们是使徒的；他们有有效的圣事，所以他们是圣洁的，但他们不是独一的。 The Orthodox, they're apostolic; they have valid sacraments, so they're holy, but they're not one.
他们在教义、治理和敬拜方面不统一，他们不是大公的，因为他们不是普世的。 They're not united in matters of doctrine, governance, and worship, and they're not Catholic because they're not universal.
他们的教导不是普世的。 Their teachings are not universal.
什么是普世基督教？ What is universal Christianity?
你去世界上任何地方，普通的基督徒都会是公教徒。 You go anywhere in the world, the average Christian is going to be Catholic.
实际上，当你想到这一点时，这是难以置信的，弥撒被举行——同样的弥撒，同样的圣经， 同样的圣餐——它在世界各地和世界每个大陆上以几十种，如果不是几百种语言来举行。 It's incredible, actually, when you think about it, that the Mass is being said—the same Mass, the same Scripture, the same Eucharist—and it's being said in dozens, if not hundreds, of languages throughout the world and every continent of the world.
也许南极洲没有；我不知道。 Maybe not Antarctica; I don't know.
实际上，可能南极洲也有。 Probably Antarctica, actually.
我不知道；那会是一个有趣的问题。 I don't know; that would be an interesting one.
但实际上每个大陆——我的意思是，这是一个令人惊叹的想法。 But virtually every continent—I mean, it's a mind-blowing thought.
但知道无论你去哪里，你都能找到你的公教会，这也真的很美好和安慰。 But it's also really beautiful and comforting to know that wherever you go, you can find your Catholic Church.
美丽。 Beautiful.
好的，我认为查理说的还有一件事，我们的一位朋 友在节目前发给我，像是，我们必须谈谈教宗。 Okay, there was one other thing that I think Charlie said, and one of our folks sent this to me before the episode, like, We've got to talk about the Pope.
我们必须谈谈教宗。 We've got to talk about the Pope.
所以我们要做这个，谈谈圣父。 So we're going to do it, the Holy Father.
所以我要看看我能否找到它。 So I'm going to see if I can find it.
哦，好吧，也许教宗被误解了。 Oh well, maybe the Papa was misinterpreted.
你知道，这没什么大不了的。 You know, it's no big deal.
忘了它吧。 Forget about it.
你太盎格鲁了，无法理解那个。 You're too Anglo to understand that.
太盎格鲁了。 Too Anglo.
态度是我只能希望你知道他不是说同性恋是坏的。 Attitude I have to just hope you know he doesn't mean that homosexuality is bad.
好的，我们应该知道他说神不能祝福罪。 Okay, we should know he said God can't bless sin.
不，不，不，不。 No, no, no, no.
我不会让你那样说的。 I'm not going to give you that one.
他在那个话题上，或者气候变化的事情上，态度要开放得多。 He's been way more open on that topic, or the climate change thing.
气候变化和所有这类事情，你只能希望他是在说我们想要你。 Climate change and all this sort of stuff, you just have to kind of hope that he's saying that we want you.
就像有时候我的祖母。 Just kind of, it's like my grandmother sometimes.
当她，她的一个孙子，说了些她不喜欢的话，她会把助听器调低一点。 When she, one of her grandchildren, says something that she doesn't like, she kind of turns down the hearing aid a little bit.
所以有时候，你知道，如果你对某些问题把助听器调低…… And so sometimes, you know, if you turn down the hearing aid on certain issues...
我的意思不是讽刺，但是，为什么我要在乎那个来自阿根廷的人说什么？ And I mean this like non-sarcastically, but like, why should I care at all what that guy from Argentina has to say?
嗯，因为你在乎你的牧师要说什么。 Well, because you care what your pastor has to say.
是的，但如果我的牧师开始说疯狂的事情，我会找一个新的牧师。 Yes, but if my pastor starts saying crazy things, I find a new pastor.
这是很多人有的批评，因为方济各教宗有过一些即兴评 论，这些评论让很多人感到困惑，也让很多人生气。 This is the criticism that a lot of people have because there have been off-the-cuff comments that Pope Francis has made, which have been really confusing for a lot of people and have made a lot of people angry.
显然，我对此有看法，我在节目中分享了一些，但我很好奇你 是如何处理这个问题的，因为我认为这确实是人们的绊脚石。 Obviously, I have opinions on this, and I've shared some of this on the show, but I'm very curious how you approach this because I think it is truly a stumbling block for people.
对，是这样的，我向你保证情况确实如此。 Right, here's the thing, and I promise you this is indeed the case.
如果你确实读了他说的话，确实读了他的著作，当你听 到方济各教宗说了什么疯狂的事情，实际上去找到它。 If you literally just actually read what he said, actually read his writings, when you hear Pope Francis say something crazy, actually go and actually find it.
如果有视频，实际上去听它或者在其完整的上下文中阅读它。 If there's a video of it, actually go and listen to it or read it in the entirety of its context.
百分之九十九的时间，它是没问题的。 Ninety-nine percent of the time, it's fine.
很好，是的。 It's great, yeah.
百分之九十九的时间，它是没问题的。 Ninety-nine percent of the time, it's fine.
百分之一的媒体完全，你知道，他会说些什么， 他们会把它拿出来，没有人费心去读整件事。 One percent of the media just completely, you know, he'll say something and they'll pull it out, and nobody bothers to go and read the whole thing.
不，这是我认为如果我们都做了会让这个世界变 得更好的一件事：让我们都去阅读第一手资料。 No, here's the one thing that I think would make this world better if we all did it: let's all go read first-hand sources.
停止担心，你知道，这个新闻，你知道，新闻对任何事 情的说法，特别是当涉及到，你知道，教宗的时候。 Stop worrying about what, you know, this news, you know, what the news says about anything, especially when it comes to, you know, the Pope.
亲自去阅读第一手资料，他说了什么，我向你保证，如果你只是这样做，你会没事的。 Go and read it first-hand for yourself, what he said, and I promise you that if you just do that, you'll be fine.
你不会再感到震惊了。 You're not going to be scandalous anymore.
我的意思是，我在亲生命工作中也看到很多这样的情况， 媒体采用的分裂性叙述可以造成如此多的混乱和恐慌。 I mean, I see this so much even in pro-life work, where the divisive narrative that the media takes on can create so much confusion and consternation.
我的意思是，我记得甚至像特朗普总统的事情，我在说，如果你不坚持 亲生命原则，你不会得到亲生命选票，就像我在媒体上谈论的那样。 I mean, I remember even with like the President Trump stuff, where I was saying, like, if you're not going to stand for pro-life principles, you're not going to get pro-life votes in the way that I was talking about it in the media.
但有人说莉拉正在进行一场试图选举卡玛拉·哈里斯的活动， 因为我接受采访的文章的媒体标题会选择最具分裂性的标题。 But there are people saying Lila's running a campaign to try to elect Kamala Harris because the media headline of the article that I'd be giving the interview would pick the most divisive headline possible.
当你实际阅读我说的话时，我说的是相当常识性的事情，比如，嘿——不要支持堕胎药。 When you actually read what I say, I'm saying something that's pretty common sense, like, hey – don't support the abortion pill.
亲生命者不会喜欢那样；如果你那样做，他们不会投票给你。 Pro-lifers are not going to like that; they're not going to vote for you if you do that.
所以这只是标题的力量和断章取义的引用的力量。 So it's just the power of the headline and the power of the cherry-picked quote out of context.
我确实认为在公教会的神学问题上，在圣父的评论上，这种情况肯定会不断重复。 And I do think that happens rinse and repeat constantly on theological issues in the Catholic Church, with the Holy Father's comments for sure.
因为这是我们作为保守派所面临的问题，我是一个保守派。 Because here's the issue that we as conservatives have, and I'm a conservative.
我毫不掩饰这一点。 I make no bones about it.
我说如果查理·柯克竞选总统，我会投票给他。 I say I'll vote for Charlie Kirk if he runs for president.
我是一个保守派，但我能识别保守派的盲点。 I'm a conservative, but I can identify blind spots that conservatives have.
我们不信任媒体，对吧？ We don't trust the media, right?
显然，保守派，我们，你知道，一直以来我们不信任媒体是因为媒体撒谎。 Apparently, conservatives, we, you know, all this time we don't trust the media because the media lies.
根据，你知道，为什么他们相信媒体关于方济各教宗说了什么的报道呢？ According to, you know, why do they trust what the media says about what Pope Francis says then?
因为当涉及到他们认为是对立面的人，他们认为 是敌人的人，保守派认为方济各教宗是敌人。 Because when it comes to somebody that they perceive to be on the other side, that they perceive to be an enemy, and conservatives perceive Pope Francis to be an enemy.
保守派有很多敌人，这些人实际上不应该是我们的敌人。 Conservatives have a lot of enemies that really shouldn't be our enemies.
说得太好了，亚历克斯。 Such a good point, Alex.
保守派，让我告诉你们一些事情。 Conservatives, let me tell you something.
保守派，我们希望方济各教宗成为我们的朋友，因为他实际上真的是我们的朋友。 Conservatives, we want Pope Francis to be our friend because he actually really is our friend.
他真的是。 He really is.
堕胎就像雇佣杀手。 Abortion is like firing a hitman.
我的意思是，他是如此坚定和直言不讳。 I mean, he's so solid and outspoken.
是的，你知道关于共产主义，对吧？ Yes, and you know about communism, right?
因为我知道他在这个片段中也提到了关于共产主义者的事。 Because I know that he mentions that here in this clip too about the communist folk.
他难道不知道方济各教宗多次谴责共产主义吗？ Does he not realize all of the times that Pope Francis has condemned communism?
他不知道吗？ Does he not know?
所以当特朗普总统被枪击——这实际上是因为他在夏天被枪击——但就在最近，方 济各教宗，他在谈论，他指责，方济各教宗指责媒体导致唐纳德·特朗普被枪击。 So when President Trump got shot—and this is actually because he got shot back in the summer—but just recently, Pope Francis, he was talking about, he blamed, Pope Francis blamed the media for Donald Trump getting shot.
没有人知道方济各教宗实际上说，他没有点名特朗普，但他说 有一位非常突出的政治家在夏天几乎被暗杀，因为媒体撒谎。 Nobody knows that Pope Francis actually said, and he didn't say Trump by name, but he said there was a very prominent politician that was almost assassinated back in the summer because the media lies.
方济各教宗说了那个。 Pope Francis said that.
那听起来像是查理·柯克会说的话，但方济各教宗说了这个。 That sounds like something Charlie Kirk would have said, but Pope Francis said it.
方济各教宗实际上站在我们这边，很多人不知道。 Pope Francis is actually on our side, and a lot of people don't know.
教宗无误的力量：这对教会实际上意味着什么，背后的神学是什么？ Power of papal infallibility: what does that actually mean in practice for the Church and the theology behind that?
因为我确实认为这对很多人来说是一个巨大的误解，肯定是那些不在教会 的人，你知道，新教徒，我们的公教兄弟，和非公教的基督徒兄弟姐妹。 Because I do think this is a huge misconception for a lot of people, definitely people that are not in the Church, you know, Protestants, our Catholic brothers, and non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters.
但也有一些公教徒，他们看到这些就很不安。 But some Catholics too, who see some of this and just get so upset.
是的，所以重要的是要理解教宗制度本身是神的机构。 Yeah, so it's important to understand that the papacy itself is a divine institution.
它是由耶稣基督自己给我们的。 It was given to us by Jesus Christ Himself.
如果教宗制度或任何东西是耶稣基督给我们的，那么我们需要接受它。 If the papacy or anything is given to us by Jesus Christ, then we need to accept it.
我们不能从耶稣那里挑选我们喜欢的、想要遵守或跟随的东西，对吧？ We can't pick and choose the things that we like from Jesus that we want to obey or follow, right?
现在，教宗制度如何运作？ Now, how does the papacy work?
嗯，教会告诉我们教宗制度的运作方式。 Well, the Church tells us the way that the papacy works.
公教会的训导权是权威的。 The Magisterium of the Catholic Church is what's authoritative.
训导权是有权威的。 The Magisterium is what has the authority.
所以当你听到任何来自媒体报道关于方济各教宗说的话或教会说的任何事情， 可能是美国公教主教会议，你想问自己的第一个问题是，这是训导性的吗？ So whenever you hear anything coming out of the media reporting on something that Pope Francis said or anything that the Church has said, maybe the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the first question that you want to ask yourself is, Is it magisterial?
这是第一个问题。 That's the first question.
我们怎么知道它是否是训导性的？ And when do we know if it's magisterial?
当主教或教宗讲话时？ When the bishops or the Pope speaks?
因为教会会告诉我们，它通常来自于训导性文件，比如自动诏书或使徒宪章。 Because the Church will tell us that it usually comes in a magisterial document like a motu proprio or an apostolic constitution.
而且这甚至不一定是通谕。 And that's not even an encyclical necessarily.
通谕，是的，通谕是训导性的。 An encyclical, yeah, an encyclical is magisterial.
所以，所有的通谕都是训导性的？ So, all encyclicals are magisterial?
所有的通谕都是训导性的，所以教宗通谕、自动诏书和使徒宪章 ——如果它是在这些类型的文件中说的，你知道它是训导性的。 All encyclicals are magisterial, so papal encyclicals, motu proprios, and apostolic constitutions—if it was said in one of those types of documents, you know it's magisterial.
所以如果它是训导性的，你不能忽视它。 So if it's magisterial, you can't ignore it.
现在你必须处理训导权所说的内容。 Now you have to deal with what the Magisterium has said.
如果它不是训导性的，就像迈克尔·诺尔斯那种情况， 如果它不是训导性的，你可以忽视它；它不影响信仰。 If it's not magisterial, like Michael Knowles' kind of thing, if it's not magisterial, you can ignore it; it doesn't affect the faith.
你可以把助听器调低。 You can turn the hearing aid down.
你可以把助听器调低，因为它不是训导性的。 You can turn the hearing aid down because it's not magisterial.
然而，大多数人不阅读训导权的文件，但大多数人在看新闻，他们在听方济各教宗 在飞机上接受采访时说的话，你知道，或者当他接受《60分钟》采访时说的话。 However, most people are not reading the Magisterium, but most people are turning on the news and they're listening to what Pope Francis said on an airplane when he gets interviewed, you know, or when he was interviewed by 60 Minutes.
你知道，大多数人都在听那些。 You know, most people are hearing that.
尽管我喜欢那个《60分钟》的采访，我想知道查理·柯克是否听过那个与教宗的60分钟 采访，因为仅那一个采访就完全摧毁了保守派认为方济各教宗是左派共产主义者的想法。 Even though I love that 60 Minutes interview, I wonder if Charlie Kirk ever listened to that 60-minute interview with the Pope, because that one interview alone completely just destroys this idea that conservatives have that Pope Francis is a leftist communist.
就是那个采访，仅那一个就向你展示了，因为你甚至可以看出那个 采访中的采访者，你可以看出她认为方济各教宗会站在她这边。 That interview right there, that alone shows you because you can even tell that the interviewer in that interview, you can tell that she thought that Pope Francis was going to be on her side.
她很失望。 She was disappointed.
老实说，我实际上很惊讶她没有被解雇，因为你 可以看出她进去时认为方济各教宗会只是…… Honestly, I was actually surprised that she wasn't fired because you could tell that she went in thinking that Pope Francis was going to just...
而方济各教宗就像是…… and Pope Francis was like...
方济各教宗让她看起来很愚蠢。 Pope Francis made her look stupid.
方济各教宗让她看起来真的很笨。 Pope Francis made her look really dumb.
她会说，你知道，方济各教宗，你说过这个关于女性圣职授 任或关于同性恋的事，而他就像是，你在说什么，女士？ She would say, You know, Pope Francis, you said this about women's ordination or about homosexuality, and he was like, What are you talking about, woman?
他像是说，「我从来没说过这些。 He's like, 'I never said any of this.
就像，你是什么意思？」 Like, what do you mean?'
他让她看起来很笨。 He made her look dumb.
我们得看那个片段，但他只是说不。 We got to watch that clip, but he just said no.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
那是什么？ What was that?
他只是说，是的。 And he just said, Yeah.
他说，不。我很好奇，对于今天在公教环境中成长的小女 孩，她会有机会成为执事并作为神职人员参与教会吗？ He said, No. And I'm curious, for a little girl growing up Catholic today, will she ever have the opportunity to be a deacon and participate as a clergy member in the Church?
不，我理解你说过不要女性作为祭司，但你正在研究女性作为执事的想法。 NO I understand you have said no women as priests, but you are studying the idea of women as deacons.
这是你持开放态度的事情吗？ Is that something you are open to?
如果是有圣秩的执事，不，好的，所以。 If it is deacons with holy orders, no, okay, so.
嗯，我又看了整个采访。 Well, I saw the whole interview again.
如果我是采访他的那位女士，我会觉得，我要被解雇了。 If I was that lady that interviewed him, I would have been like, I'm going to get fired.
嗯，甚至她问那个问题的方式，就像小女孩想成 为祭司，这就像，小男孩长大后想成为母亲吗？ Well, even the way she asked that question, like little girls wanting to be priests, it's like, do little boys grow up wanting to be mothers?
就像，男性和女性之间有某些不同的事情，并且有神学含义，这没关系。 Like, there are certain things that are different between men and women and have theological implications, and that's okay.
这些差异是可以的。 The differences are okay.
然后，归根结底，就像，嗯，男性在生物学上有 什么使他们更——更适合祭司职分的东西吗？ And then, at the end of the day, it's like, well, is there something biologically about men that make them more – better for the priesthood?
不，据我们所知没有。 No, not that we know of.
只是耶稣基督说了那个。 It's just that Jesus Christ said that.
耶稣基督选择了12个男人；他选择了男人。 Jesus Christ chose 12 men; he picked men.
他们有为使徒继承而按手。 They have the laying on of hands for apostolic succession.
那是耶稣决定的，所以我接受那个。 That's what Jesus decided, so I'm going with that.
没错。 Exactly.
归根结底，我们都知道男性和女性是不同的，而且说男性和 女性不同是可以的，因为我们就是我们应该成为的样子。 And what it comes down to is that we all know that men and women are different, and it's okay to say that men and women are different because we are what we're supposed to be.
我们应该不同是有原因的，因为我们互相补充。 There's a reason that we're supposed to be different, because we complement each other.
嗯，这实际上非常美丽。 Well, it's actually very beautiful.
就像，如果你读圣若望保禄二世的《身体神学》或者任何谈论这个的 伟大道德神学家的著作，关于男性和女性之间的差异，男人，对吧？ Like, if you read St. John Paul II's Theology of the Body or just any of the great moral theologians that talk about this, about the differences between men and women, the man, right?
男人，因为我们都是按照神的形象造的，但男人代表耶稣，女人代表教会，对吧？ Men, because we're all made in the image of God, but the man represents Jesus, women represent the Church, right?
因为我们知道男人给予，女人接受，对吧？ Because we know that the man gives and the woman receives, right?
这就是新生命被创造的方式。 And that's how new life is created.
嗯，神只能给予。 Well, God can only give.
神不接受因为神是神。 God doesn't receive because God is God.
神是无限的。 God is infinite.
神拥有一切。 God has everything.
神是给予者。 God is the giver.
男人代表耶稣，女人代表教会，因为教会接受她的新郎，对吧？ Men represent Jesus, women represent the Church because the Church receives her Bridegroom, right?
所以让男人做男人，让女人做女人，让男人给予，让女人接受。 So let men be men, let women be women, let men give, let women receive.
这种相互作用发生了，这就是你传播人类物种的方式，这就是社会构建的方式。 That reciprocation happens, and that is how you promulgate the human species, and that's how society was built.
这就是社会运作的方式，让男人做男人，让女人做女人。 That's how society functions, by letting men be men and letting women be women.
男人不能做母亲所做的事；我们就是做不到。 Men cannot do what mothers do; we just can't do it.
我的制作人，乔纳森，告诉我关于这个。 My producer, Jonathan, was telling me about this.
他说当他的妻子让他单独和孩子们在一起时，他总是感到害怕，因为他们让他发疯。 He says that he always gets scared when his wife leaves him alone with the kids because they drive him crazy.
他说，我就是不能。他不能给他们她给他们的东西，使他们平静 下来或使他们听话或无论是什么，因为孩子们需要他们的妈妈。 He goes, I just can't. He can't give them what she gives them to make them calm down or make them listen or whatever it is, because children need their mom.
他的妻子也不能做他所做的事，这就是重点。 And his wife cannot do what he does either, and that's the point.
这就是为什么他们在一起，因为他们需要彼此才能抚养孩子。 That's why they're together, because they need each other in order to raise their kids.
嗯，所以是的，为什么女性，为什么某些人，某些 存在的问题，为什么他们想强迫女性成为男性？ Um, so yeah, why do women, why do certain people, certain problems that be, why do they want to force women to be men?
嗯，强迫女性成为祭司，我认为最简单的答案，最明显的答案，是因为耶稣说了。 Well, and forcing women to be priests, I think the simplest answer, the most obvious answer, is because Jesus said so.
而且在这方面有很多自由，因为你可以提出一个论点，嗯，有些男人在他们 的表现方式上更女性化，比如对他们的家人，比如他们比女人更喜欢做饭。 And that there's so much freedom in that because you can make an argument that, well, there are some men that are more feminine in how they show up, like to their families, like they like cooking more than the woman.
而这些在某些方面就像是社会刻板印象，对吧，随着文化的变化和时间的变化而变化。 And like these are like, in some ways, social stereotypes, right, which change with culture and change with time.
但底线是耶稣设立了这个，不是我们。 But the bottom line is Jesus instituted this, not us.
就像这不是我们的想法。 Like this wasn't our idea.
就像祭司说的，它不是来自我们；它来自我们的主。 Like the priest said, it doesn't come from us; it came from our Lord.
他有一个特定的——他选择作为一个男人把他给予世界。 And He had a specific—He chose to give Him to the world as a man.
他选择男性作为门徒，他把手按在这些男人身上，他给了他们祭司职分。 He chose disciples as men, and He laid His hands on these men, and He gave them the priesthood.
然后他派他们出去带来更多的祭司。 And then He sent them out to bring more priests.
然后女性也参与其中，但他没有——抹大拉的马利亚 ，他没有把手按在她身上说，你将成为一名祭司。 And then women were involved too, but He didn't—Mary Magdalene, He did not put His hands on her and say, You're going to be a priest.
这里，没错。 Here, exactly.
所以我认为这非常——在我看来，这是关于这个教导最重要的事情。 So I think that’s very—that is the most significant thing in my view when it comes to this teaching.
对，因为本体论的现实和男性和女性是什么以及祭司是什么之间的差异。 Right, because of the ontological reality and the differences between what men and women are and what a priest is.
如果祭司代表耶稣基督，那么男人，让男人成为祭司，因为女人代表教会。 If a priest represents Jesus Christ, then men, let the men be the priest because the women represent the Church.
马利亚是一个代表。 Mary is a representation.
蒙福的童贞马利亚是教会的代表。 The Blessed Virgin Mary is a representation of the Church.
你知道，当你提到有些男人喜欢做饭时，这很有趣。 You know, it's funny when you mentioned about how there are some men that like to cook.
嗯，如果你是一个喜欢做饭的男人，那并不会让你成为一个女孩。 Well, if you're a man that likes to cook, that doesn't make you a girl.
我总是想到，我不知道你是否看过电影《唐尼·布拉斯科》。 I always think of, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Donnie Brasco.
我喜欢黑手党电影；我就像是一个黑手党电影迷。 I love mafia movies; I'm like a big mafia movie guy.
阿尔·帕西诺，他就像，这是他与约翰尼·德普的场景，阿尔·帕西 诺在厨房里，他在做饭，他就像，他回到家里，只有男人是厨师。 Al Pacino, and he's like, it's the scene where he's with Johnny Depp, and Al Pacino's in the kitchen and he's cooking, and he's like, he goes back home, Only men are cooks.
永远不要让女人做饭。 Never let the women cook.
男人必须做饭，因为女人不能像男人在家乡那样做饭。 Men have to cook because women can't cook like men do back home.
然后他说，把这个放进你的嘴里，唐尼。 And then he goes, Put this in your mouth, Donnie.
他说，它会像圣餐一样在你嘴里融化。 He goes, It'll melt in your mouth like Holy Communion.
所以是的，这只是一个社会事物；它因文化而异。 So yeah, it's just a social thing; it varies from culture to culture.
有很多，我的意思是，我认为我们被绊倒了，我认为保守派 ，人们，甚至那些喜欢传统这个词的人，我们想要传统。 There's a lot of, I mean, I think that we get tripped up, and I think conservatives, people, and even those that like the word tradition, we want tradition.
我的意思是，传统非常重要。 I mean, tradition is incredibly important.
作为公教徒，我们知道有大约2000年的传统，但在这些文化规范方面，关于谁 在家庭中做什么，谁在家庭经济中做什么，在世界上创造道路的项目，为家庭提供 ，这在多年来基于文化、基于配偶的技能和能力以及所有这些东西而看起来不同。 We know as Catholics there's like 2000 years of tradition, but in terms of these cultural norms about who's doing what in the household, who's doing what in the economy of the family, project making a way in the world, providing for the family, that has looked different throughout the years based on cultures, based on the skills and the aptitudes of the spouses, and all this stuff.
所以，无论如何，我喜欢你的回应。 So, anyways, I loved your response, though.
归根结底，耶稣是一个男人。 At the end of the day, Jesus is a man.
祭司代表耶稣；他们处于耶稣的位格中。 The priests represent Jesus; they're in the person of Jesus.
所以，耶稣是一个男人，圣子。 So, Jesus was a man, God the Son.
他被称为圣子是有原因的。 He's called the God the Son for a reason.
他成为肉身为一个男人。 He became incarnate as a man.
这里有差异，这是好的。 There are differences here, and that's good.
它应该是那样的。 It's supposed to be that way.
亚历克斯，这太棒了。 Alex, this has been awesome.
我玩得很开心！ I've had so much fun!
我不敢相信我能和莉拉·罗斯交谈，而我的朋友弗兰科现在在这个摄像机后面。 I cannot believe that I got to talk to Lila Rose, and my man Franco is behind this camera right now.
我的朋友哈里森将会剪掉所有愚蠢的部分。 My man Harrison is going to edit out all of the dumb things.
这是你必须剪掉的内容，哈里斯：我用不同的名字称呼你。 That's something you're going to have to edit out, Harris: me calling you by a different name.
非常感谢乔纳森让这一切成为可能！ Big shout out to Jonathan for making it!
我只是想向所有人致敬，因为像你我这样的人在那里做摄像工作并尽力而为，对吧？ I just want to do a shout out to all the people, because there are people like you and I that are out there doing camera stuff and trying to do our best, right?
但我们能够做我们正在做的事情的唯一原因是因为有一群其他 人在做他们正在做的事情，他们不一定出现在频道上，对吧？ But the only reason we are able to do what we're doing is because there are a bunch of other people that are doing what they're doing that are not showing up on the channel necessarily, right?
所以非常感谢你，乔纳森，哈里斯，基利，莫娜，所有做出惊人工作的人。 And so a huge shout out to you, Jonathan, to Harris, to Keely, to Morna, all of the people doing amazing work.
弗兰科，他像是在说，我的致敬在哪里？ Franco, he's like, Where's my shout out?
不过，弗兰科也在摄像机前面。 Franco's in front of the camera too, though.
弗兰科一直在摄像机后面跳来跳去，对我们正在做的事情感到非常兴奋。 Franco's been hopping around behind the camera, all excited that we're doing this.
太有趣了！ That's so funny!
他会在最后跳一个小舞。 He's going to do a little dance at the end.
亚历克斯，你接下来要做什么？ Alex, what's next for you?
你下一步去哪里？ Where are you going next?
无论我被邀请到哪里，我都会去。 Wherever I get invited, I will go.
几天前我正在和一位迦勒底执事交谈，他是西蒙神父的父亲， 他说，你知道，对我和约翰说，他说，「你们就像使徒一样。 I was talking to a Chaldean deacon just a few days ago, who was Father Simon's father, and he said, You know, talking to me and John, he goes, 'You guys are like apostles.
他说，无论他们邀请你去哪里，你都去，因为圣 经说任何接待你的地方，你就去并住在那家里。 He goes, wherever they invite you to go, you go, because Scripture says that any place that receives you, you go and you stay in that household.
无论他们在哪里接待你。」 Wherever they receive you.'
他说，「你让我想起使徒；无论你被邀请到哪里，你都去。」 And he said, 'You remind me of the apostles; wherever you get invited, you just go.'
阿们。 Amen.
所以我们只是在做主呼召我们去做的事。 So we're just doing what the Lord calls us to do.
为了神的国度，阿们。 For the Kingdom of God, amen.
非常感谢你邀请我。 Thank you so much for having me.
这是一种荣幸。 It has been an honor.
太棒了，谢谢你，亚历克斯。 Awesome, thank you, Alex.
谢谢你。 Thank you.
非常感谢我们的合作伙伴，EWTN。EWTN是最大的 宗教网络，通过信仰的真理、娱乐和新闻接触数百万人。 A huge thank you to our partner, EWTN. EWTN is the largest religious network, reaching millions of people with the truth of the faith, entertainment, and news.
在EWTN.com查看他们。 Check them out at EWTN.com.