- start: 3.955
  end: 17.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: David Curry, author of the classic work Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, will share his powerful conversion story from a fundamentalist Protestant background to the Catholic faith and much more today on The Simple Truth.
  zh: 大卫·柯里是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》这部经典著作的作者，今天他将在《简单真理》节目中分享他从基要主义新教背景皈依公教会的感人故事，以及更多内容。
- start: 17.767
  end: 26.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: It is Testimony Tuesday on The Simple Truth, where we bring you real-life, first-hand testimonial accounts of the life-giving reality of Jesus and His Catholic Church.
  zh: 这是《简单真理》的见证星期二环节，我们为您带来关于耶稣和他的公教会赐予生命的真实性的第一手见证故事。
- start: 26.754
  end: 34.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We consecrate everything to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the pure, strong, chaste heart of St. Joseph.
  zh: 我们通过圣母玛利亚的无玷圣心和圣约瑟纯洁、坚强、贞洁的心，将一切奉献给耶稣的圣心。
- start: 34.245
  end: 35.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Again, our guest today is David Curry.
  zh: 再次介绍，我们今天的嘉宾是大卫·柯里。
- start: 35.846
  end: 43.35
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: He's a Catholic husband, father, grandfather, and also the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 他是一位公教会的丈夫、父亲、祖父，也是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。
- start: 43.35
  end: 50.274
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: That's the book I know him by; it was very helpful to my journey back to the Catholic faith almost 25 years ago now.
  zh: 这就是让我认识他的那本书，在将近25年前，它对我回归公教会信仰的旅程帮助很大。
- start: 50.474
  end: 52.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: But he's the author of some other books as well.
  zh: 他还写过其他一些书。
- start: 52.936
  end: 57.954
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: He's going to share some of his good work with us as we go, but we want to start in the beginning.
  zh: 在节目进行过程中他会和我们分享一些他的好作品，但我们想从开始讲起。
- start: 57.954
  end: 59.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: But first, we want to welcome him in.
  zh: 但首先，让我们欢迎他的到来。
- start: 59.395
  end: 61.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: David Curry, welcome to The Simple Truth.
  zh: 大卫·柯里，欢迎来到《简单真理》。
- start: 61.536
  end: 62.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Thank you for being with us today.
  zh: 感谢您今天做客。
- start: 62.776
  end: 63.677
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: How are you?
  zh: 您好吗？
- start: 64.597
  end: 67.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm doing very well, thank you for having me, Jim.
  zh: 我很好，吉姆，谢谢你邀请我。
- start: 67.478
  end: 69.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's always good to talk.
  zh: 能交谈总是很好。
- start: 70.26
  end: 71.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yeah, excellent!
  zh: 是啊，太好了！
- start: 71.0
  end: 76.342
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: It's a great blessing to have you with us, and we always begin the testimonies with the beginning.
  zh: 很荣幸有您做客，我们总是从开始讲起见证。
- start: 76.342
  end: 77.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We start with childhood.
  zh: 我们从童年开始。
- start: 77.503
  end: 82.345
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: What was your early life like, your family, the culture that you grew up in?
  zh: 您的早年生活是怎样的？您的家庭，您成长的文化环境是怎样的？
- start: 84.535
  end: 88.599
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, well, maybe I can start with a story about my childhood.
  zh: 好的，也许我可以从一个童年故事开始讲起。
- start: 88.599
  end: 95.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's one of my most vivid memories as a child, and I start the book with the same story because it sort of puts everything into perspective.
  zh: 这是我童年最深刻的记忆之一，我的书也是从这个故事开始的，因为它能让人对整个故事有个全面的认识。
- start: 95.925
  end: 104.752
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think I was a PK; I was a preacher's kid, and I had three sisters and a very loving family.
  zh: 我是个传道人的孩子，有三个姐妹，生活在一个充满爱的家庭里。
- start: 105.233
  end: 110.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But one of my most vivid memories was when I was in 6th grade.
  zh: 但我最深刻的记忆之一是在六年级的时候。
- start: 111.078
  end: 113.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was on the playground in 6th grade.
  zh: 那时我正在操场上。
- start: 114.145
  end: 121.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Messing around like 6th grade boys do, they called us in a little early and told us that the president had been shot.
  zh: 当时我们像六年级的男孩一样在玩耍，他们提前把我们叫了进来，告诉我们总统被枪击了。
- start: 122.812
  end: 129.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: At that time, they didn't have any details, but it sort of put a darkness over the whole afternoon.
  zh: 当时他们还没有详细情况，但这个消息让整个下午都笼罩在阴影之中。
- start: 129.979
  end: 132.44
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And of course, we're talking about President Kennedy.
  zh: 当然，我们说的是肯尼迪总统。
- start: 133.722
  end: 136.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm old enough to remember that, believe it or not, Jim.
  zh: 吉姆，信不信由你，我已经老到能记得那时候的事了。
- start: 138.586
  end: 148.677
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: After they actually ended up dismissing school a little bit early that day, they told us, We want you to go home.
  zh: 那天他们提前让学校放学，告诉我们说，我们希望你们回家。
- start: 149.158
  end: 156.221
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: From all appearances, it appears that our president has been successfully assassinated; he's no longer with us.
  zh: 从种种迹象看来，我们的总统已经遇刺身亡了，他已经离开了我们。
- start: 156.821
  end: 163.224
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I remember walking home; we lived about a mile from school, and back then there weren't buses, you just walked to school.
  zh: 我记得走回家的路，我们住在离学校大约一英里的地方，那时候没有校车，你只能步行上学。
- start: 164.024
  end: 179.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As I was walking home, big tears were dripping down my cheek because, as a fundamentalist sixth grader, there was no doubt in my mind that there was no hope for John F. Kennedy—that he was in hell.
  zh: 在我走回家的路上，大颗的眼泪顺着脸颊流下来，因为作为一个基要主义的六年级学生，我毫不怀疑约翰·肯尼迪已经没有希望了——他一定在地狱里。
- start: 179.177
  end: 182.88
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I just knew it.
  zh: 我就是这么认定的。
- start: 182.88
  end: 190.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I knew, as a Catholic, he was trying to work his way, or I thought that I knew he was trying to work his way to heaven.
  zh: 我知道，作为一个公教徒，他在试图靠行为上天堂，或者说我以为我知道他在试图靠行为上天堂。
- start: 190.906
  end: 207.986
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He didn't accept sola fide, salvation by faith alone, and that was a pivotal moment in my life because it was just so much sorrow, so much sorrow that our president was gone and that there was no hope for him for all eternity.
  zh: 他不接受因信称义，单靠信心得救，这是我生命中的一个转折点，因为那时充满了悲伤，太多的悲伤，我们的总统离世了，而且他在永恒中已经没有希望了。
- start: 209.667
  end: 213.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But that's the kind of theology I was raised in.
  zh: 但这就是我所受的神学教育。
- start: 213.971
  end: 217.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was raised in a fundamentalist preacher's kid's home.
  zh: 我在一个基要主义传道人的家庭中长大。
- start: 217.953
  end: 220.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We were very loving; we loved people.
  zh: 我们很有爱心，我们爱人。
- start: 220.996
  end: 223.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But there were some things that were just non-negotiable.
  zh: 但有些事情是绝对不能妥协的。
- start: 224.958
  end: 228.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We believed in sola fide; you are saved by faith alone.
  zh: 我们相信因信称义，人单靠信心得救。
- start: 228.841
  end: 240.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We thought we knew that Catholics worked their way to heaven because they talked about works, so obviously we felt that it was pretty obvious they couldn't believe in sola fide.
  zh: 我们以为我们知道公教徒是靠行为上天堂的，因为他们谈论行为，所以我们觉得很明显他们不可能相信因信称义。
- start: 241.58
  end: 247.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We also believed that Scripture was our only authority—sola scriptura.
  zh: 我们也相信圣经是我们唯一的权威——唯独圣经。
- start: 247.801
  end: 255.662
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If we needed to know something to get to heaven, it would be in Scripture, and we did not need to worry about any earthly authority.
  zh: 如果我们需要知道什么才能上天堂，那一定会在圣经里，我们不需要担心任何世俗权威。
- start: 256.282
  end: 271.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Which is sort of funny when I look back on it because every preacher—and if you spent some time, Jim, in fundamentalist or any kind of Protestant circles, you know that really the preacher is the authority, you know, because he opens Scripture and he teaches Scripture.
  zh: 现在回想起来觉得有点好笑，因为每个传道人——吉姆，如果你在基要主义或任何新教圈子里待过，你就知道实际上传道人才是权威，因为是他打开圣经，是他教导圣经。
- start: 271.938
  end: 274.779
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it's his perspective on Scripture that he gives us.
  zh: 但他给我们的是他对圣经的理解。
- start: 275.26
  end: 279.203
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But we believed very strongly that Scripture was the only authority.
  zh: 但我们坚信圣经是唯一的权威。
- start: 279.203
  end: 285.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, there were other things that we believed as well, some of which kept me away from Catholicism.
  zh: 当时我们还有其他一些信仰，其中有些让我远离公教会。
- start: 285.628
  end: 289.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We believed in the virgin birth, the substitutionary atonement.
  zh: 我们相信童贞女生子和替代性救赎。
- start: 290.305
  end: 307.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The true death, burial, and resurrection three days later of Jesus Christ—that was a time back then when that was questioned by a lot of liberal Protestants and even a few liberal Catholics.
  zh: 耶稣基督的真实死亡、埋葬和三天后复活——在那个时候，这些都受到许多自由派新教徒甚至一些自由派公教徒的质疑。
- start: 308.842
  end: 318.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But one of the things that kept me from the Catholic Church for decades was the whole idea of the future times.
  zh: 但让我几十年远离公教会的其中一个原因是关于末世的整个观念。
- start: 318.41
  end: 321.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How is this world going to wrap up?
  zh: 这个世界将如何终结？
- start: 321.91
  end: 331.392
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We were quite convinced that there was still ahead of us a secret rapture that most people didn't know was coming.
  zh: 我们非常确信在我们前面还有一个秘密的被提，大多数人都不知道这件事将要发生。
- start: 332.373
  end: 355.083
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: People would be taken at the split second, in a moment, to heaven, while other people would be plunged into a seven-year horrible time called the Great Tribulation, during which Israel would come to the forefront again of God's plan for salvation.
  zh: 人们会在一瞬间被提到天堂，而其他人则会陷入七年可怕的大灾难时期，在此期间以色列会再次成为神救赎计划的焦点。
- start: 355.303
  end: 363.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: At the end of that seven years, there would be this massive war, and Jesus would come back the second time.
  zh: 在那七年结束时，会有一场大战，耶稣会第二次降临。
- start: 363.589
  end: 368.332
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We called it the second time, but actually, if you count the rapture, it's really like the third time.
  zh: 我们称之为第二次，但实际上，如果算上被提，这其实是第三次了。
- start: 370.534
  end: 379.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then we would go into a thousand-year millennium—in other words, one thousand years of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
  zh: 然后我们会进入千禧年——换句话说，就是天国在地上的一千年统治。
- start: 379.428
  end: 392.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we rejected the Catholic claim that the Kingdom of God was already established at Christ's first advent, and that kept me away from Catholicism.
  zh: 所以我们拒绝公教会所说的神的国度在基督第一次降临时就已建立的说法，这让我远离了公教会。
- start: 393.198
  end: 397.781
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We were all friendly with Catholics; we were very friendly with Catholics, but I had no Catholic friends.
  zh: 我们对公教徒都很友好，非常友好，但我没有公教徒朋友。
- start: 397.802
  end: 401.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I knew Catholics at school, obviously; I went to public school.
  zh: 我在学校当然认识公教徒，我上的是公立学校。
- start: 403.295
  end: 407.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But we were very, very separatist; we kept ourselves.
  zh: 但我们非常非常注重分别为圣，我们保持着距离。
- start: 407.938
  end: 414.803
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If we were talking to a Catholic about religion, we were usually trying to get them to understand how Catholicism was wrong.
  zh: 如果我们和公教徒谈论宗教，通常是在试图让他们明白公教会有多么错误。
- start: 415.804
  end: 422.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The other big thing that kept me away from Catholicism for a long time—and Jim, this is not going to surprise you at all—is Mary.
  zh: 另一个让我长期远离公教会的重要原因——吉姆，这一点一点也不会让你感到惊讶——就是马利亚。
- start: 423.949
  end: 425.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Mary, Mary, quite contrary.
  zh: 马利亚，马利亚，总是有争议。
- start: 425.27
  end: 440.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We always had problems with Catholics' views on that, but particularly for me, it seemed to me that the Church's teaching on Mary conflicted with what the Bible taught.
  zh: 我们一直对公教徒关于这方面的观点有异议，但对我来说特别的是，教会关于马利亚的教导似乎与圣经的教导相冲突。
- start: 441.019
  end: 449.9
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you say that the Bible is your only authority, and then if the Church is disagreeing with the Bible on something, it seems like that means the Church has to be wrong.
  zh: 当你说圣经是唯一权威时，如果教会在某些方面与圣经有分歧，那就意味着教会一定是错的。
- start: 450.18
  end: 459.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Specifically, it was about—it's such a minor issue, but it was a huge issue to me—did Jesus have any brothers and sisters?
  zh: 具体来说，是关于——这看似是个小问题，但对我来说却是个大问题——耶稣有没有兄弟姐妹？
- start: 459.462
  end: 465.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In other words, did Mary have other children after Jesus?
  zh: 换句话说，马利亚在耶稣之后有没有其他孩子？
- start: 466.794
  end: 473.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Those two things had to fall into place before I could even really look seriously at Catholicism.
  zh: 这两个问题必须先得到解决，我才能认真考虑公教会。
- start: 473.777
  end: 478.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that's my youngest memories.
  zh: 这些是我最早的记忆。
- start: 478.898
  end: 484.52
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I have some rather weird ones that you probably would look at me and say, Dave, did you really think that?
  zh: 我有一些相当奇怪的记忆，你可能会看着我说，戴夫，你真的是这么想的吗？
- start: 484.52
  end: 492.083
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I remember one time I came home, and my mom wasn't home, and none of my sisters were home.
  zh: 我记得有一次我回到家，我妈妈不在家，我的姐妹们也都不在家。
- start: 493.263
  end: 497.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And remember, we believed that at any moment, Jesus could come back with the secret rapture.
  zh: 要记住，我们相信耶稣随时可能带着秘密被提回来。
- start: 498.065
  end: 503.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you didn't go with the people that were in the secret rapture, you were going to be left behind for seven horrible years.
  zh: 如果你没有和那些被秘密提走的人一起走，你就会被留下来经历七年可怕的时期。
- start: 503.067
  end: 520.761
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, I was probably in about third or fourth grade at that time, and I became convinced in those minutes, while I was looking for my mom and my sisters, who were nowhere to be found at home, that they had been taken and I had been left.
  zh: 那时我大概在三四年级，在那几分钟里，当我找不到我的妈妈和姐妹们时，我确信他们已经被提走了，而我被留下了。
- start: 520.761
  end: 524.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I thought, What am I going to do for seven years?
  zh: 我想，这七年我该怎么办？
- start: 525.885
  end: 529.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The fear that I had at that moment was incredible.
  zh: 那一刻我感到的恐惧是难以置信的。
- start: 531.09
  end: 540.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I found eventually that they'd all gone over to the neighbor's house and were having a nice, friendly cup of coffee in the afternoon when I got home from school that day.
  zh: 但最后我发现他们都去邻居家了，那天我放学回家时，他们正在那里愉快地喝着下午茶。
- start: 540.699
  end: 543.561
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I just didn't know what the agenda was.
  zh: 我只是不知道他们的安排。
- start: 547.055
  end: 556.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As a result of my convictions, I felt like I really didn't want to ever be anything other than what my dad was, which was a fundamentalist preacher.
  zh: 由于我的信念，我觉得我真的不想成为除了我父亲那样的基要主义传道人之外的任何其他角色。
- start: 556.878
  end: 568.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I went to Bible school, then I went to Christian college, then I went to Trinity Seminary, and entered full-time Christian service.
  zh: 所以我去了圣经学校，然后去了基督教大学，之后又去了三一神学院，进入了全职基督教事工。
- start: 570.241
  end: 577.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was about that time that I started having problems with the system that I was taught.
  zh: 大约就在那时，我开始对我所学的体系产生质疑。
- start: 579.051
  end: 588.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My problem was I was finding verses that didn't make sense in Protestantism.
  zh: 我的问题是我发现了一些在新教中说不通的经文。
- start: 590.254
  end: 608.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The one I remember most vividly is the first one I remember: Colossians chapter 1, verse 20, where Paul talks about the fact that he adds his suffering to the suffering of Christ for the salvation of the world.'
  zh: 我记得最清楚的是我第一次注意到的：歌罗西书第一章第20节，那里说：「既然藉着他在十字架上所流的血成就了和平，便藉着他叫万有，无论是地上的、天上的，都与自己和好了。」
- start: 610.344
  end: 616.347
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's not a Protestant idea; you know we can't add anything to the sufferings of Christ.
  zh: 这不是新教的观念，你知道我们不能在基督的苦难上再添加任何东西。
- start: 616.868
  end: 620.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I was only about sixth grade at that—no, no, I was a little older.
  zh: 那时我才六年级——不，不，我那时要大一点。
- start: 620.25
  end: 625.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was probably about eighth grade at that time, and I asked my dad about it.
  zh: 我那时大概是八年级，我问了我父亲这个问题。
- start: 626.633
  end: 630.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I could tell he didn't have a real good answer because he wouldn't answer the question.
  zh: 我能看出他没有一个很好的答案，因为他没有直接回答这个问题。
- start: 631.691
  end: 637.996
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He said, Well, Dr. John Walvoord, who is president of Dallas Seminary, is going to be over for dinner this Sunday.
  zh: 他说：「嗯，达拉斯神学院的院长约翰·沃尔沃德博士这个星期天要来吃晚饭。」
- start: 637.996
  end: 640.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why don't you ask that question to Dr. Walvoord?
  zh: 「你为什么不问问沃尔沃德博士这个问题呢？」
- start: 640.858
  end: 644.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I thought, Okay, yeah, Dr. Walvoord will have a good answer to that.
  zh: 所以我想：「好的，是的，沃尔沃德博士一定会有一个好答案。」
- start: 646.443
  end: 655.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Dallas Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, Wheaton College—those were sort of the schools that we associated with.
  zh: 达拉斯神学院、慕迪圣经学院、惠顿学院——这些都是我们有联系的学校。
- start: 658.232
  end: 668.764
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I asked Dr. Walvoord, and at the end of that, he looked at me and said, Dave, there are some things that we can't base our theology on.
  zh: 所以我问了沃尔沃德博士，最后他看着我说：「戴夫，有些事情我们不能把它作为神学基础。」
- start: 668.764
  end: 673.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It sounds like maybe we're going into a break here, Jim, so I can place this story on the other end of the page.
  zh: 吉姆，听起来我们该休息一下了，所以我可以把这个故事留到之后再讲。
- start: 673.505
  end: 674.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yeah, yeah, we'll pause there.
  zh: 好的，好的，我们在这里暂停。
- start: 674.945
  end: 678.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: But yeah, great stuff here with David Curry.
  zh: 是的，大卫·柯里分享了很棒的内容。
- start: 678.606
  end: 687.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And he is the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, and I do want to encourage you to get at least one copy of the book if you don't have it.
  zh: 他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者，如果你还没有这本书，我真的想鼓励你至少买一本。
- start: 687.959
  end: 712.237
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: It's just an incredible read, and David does go into his story really in the first chapter of the book, laying out quite a bit of it there, and then really just going down the list, knocking down all of the misconceptions and areas of things he just didn't know about with regard to Catholic teaching, and then how he came to know them.
  zh: 这是一本非常精彩的书，大卫在第一章就讲述了他的故事，详细地展开了很多内容，然后一一列举，消除了所有关于公教会教导的误解和他以前不了解的方面，以及他是如何认识这些真理的。
- start: 712.548
  end: 718.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: It's a great book to come to know these truths better and stronger ourselves and also to hand them on better.
  zh: 这是一本很好的书，能帮助我们更好更深入地了解这些真理，也能更好地传递这些真理。
- start: 718.565
  end: 720.65
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We're going to be right back with more, so stay tuned.
  zh: 我们马上回来继续节目，请继续收听。
- start: 721.914
  end: 733.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: 'Prayer of Deliverance: Almighty God and Father, we beg Thee, through the intercession and help of the archangels St. Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel, for the deliverance of our brothers and sisters who are enslaved by the evil one.'
  zh: 解救祷文：全能的神和圣父，我们恳求你，藉着总领天使圣弥额尔、圣拉法厄尔和圣加俾额尔的转祷和帮助，解救我们被邪恶者奴役的弟兄姐妹。
- start: 733.741
  end: 738.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_05
  en: From anxiety, sadness, and obsession, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
  zh: 从焦虑、悲伤和执念中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。
- start: 738.164
  end: 742.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_05
  en: From hatred, fornication, and envy, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
  zh: 从仇恨、淫乱和嫉妒中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。
- start: 742.287
  end: 746.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: From thoughts of jealousy, rage, and death, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
  zh: 从妒忌、愤怒和死亡的念头中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。
- start: 746.714
  end: 751.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: From every thought of suicide and abortion, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
  zh: 从一切自杀和堕胎的念头中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。
- start: 751.257
  end: 755.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: From every form of sinful sexuality, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
  zh: 从一切罪恶的性行为中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。
- start: 755.699
  end: 761.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: From every division in our family and every harmful friendship, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
  zh: 从家庭中的一切分裂和一切有害的友谊中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。
- start: 761.003
  end: 767.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: From every sort of spell, malice, witchcraft, and every form of the occult, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
  zh: 从一切咒语、恶意、巫术和各种邪术中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。
- start: 767.344
  end: 779.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Thou who said, Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you, grant that through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, we may be liberated from every demonic influence and enjoy Thy peace always, in the name of Christ our Lord.
  zh: 你曾说：「我留下平安给你们，我将我的平安赐给你们」，求你藉着童贞圣马利亚的转祷，使我们从一切魔鬼的影响中得到释放，常享你的平安，因我们的主基督之名。
- start: 779.0
  end: 779.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_07
  en: Amen.
  zh: 阿们。
- start: 781.698
  end: 785.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: I might have gone to church, you know, at Christmas time, but gradually I quit going.
  zh: 你知道，我可能在圣诞节的时候去过教堂，但渐渐地我就不去了。
- start: 786.1
  end: 794.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's not as scary as I thought it was; it's a much more warm and open place, and God really is about love.
  zh: 这里并不像我想象的那么可怕，这是一个更温暖更开放的地方，神真的是关于爱的。
- start: 794.123
  end: 798.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It's not about the rules and the things that I remember as a child.
  zh: 这不是关于规则和我童年记忆中的那些事情。
- start: 798.805
  end: 804.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_09
  en: It really is about the love that God has for each one of us that’s so deep and wonderful.
  zh: 这真的是关于神对我们每个人那深厚而美妙的爱。
- start: 804.947
  end: 809.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: If you’ve been away from the Catholic Church for any reason, visit CatholicComeHome.org.
  zh: 如果你因为任何原因离开了公教会，请访问CatholicComeHome.org。
- start: 811.539
  end: 817.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Podcasts of our network-produced shows are free for your listening pleasure at TheStationoftheCross.com
  zh: 我们网络制作的节目播客可以在TheStationoftheCross.com免费收听。
- start: 817.763
  end: 822.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: and on our free iCatholic Radio app for Android and Apple mobile devices.
  zh: 也可以在安卓和苹果移动设备上通过我们免费的iCatholic Radio应用收听。
- start: 822.285
  end: 827.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Be uplifted in your faith and inspired to spread the good news of Jesus Christ.
  zh: 在信仰中得到提升，并受到启发去传播耶稣基督的福音。
- start: 827.128
  end: 829.97
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Listen today at TheStationoftheCross.com
  zh: 今天就在TheStationoftheCross.com收听吧。
- start: 829.97
  end: 834.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: or on our iCatholic Radio mobile app.
  zh: 或在我们的iCatholic Radio移动应用上收听。
- start: 843.411
  end: 844.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Welcome back to The Simple Truth.
  zh: 欢迎回到《简单真理》。
- start: 844.532
  end: 847.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Jim Havens here with our special guest today, David Curry.
  zh: 我是吉姆·哈文斯，今天我们特邀嘉宾是大卫·柯里。
- start: 847.515
  end: 850.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: He is the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。
- start: 850.998
  end: 853.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: I highly recommend this book.
  zh: 我强烈推荐这本书。
- start: 853.26
  end: 872.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: David, you were sharing a story with us, and I want to get back to that story, but first, I’m wondering if you can just share with the audience, in case there’s anybody out there that just isn’t very sure or doesn’t know much about the various divisions within Protestantism, what exactly does it mean to be a fundamentalist?
  zh: 大卫，你刚才在给我们讲一个故事，我想回到那个故事，但首先，我想请你跟听众解释一下，因为可能有人对新教内部的各种派别不太了解，作为一个基要主义者到底意味着什么？
- start: 873.051
  end: 880.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Where does this land in context with Protestantism overall?
  zh: 这在整个新教背景下处于什么位置？
- start: 881.993
  end: 883.694
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s a very good question, Jim.
  zh: 这是个很好的问题，吉姆。
- start: 884.694
  end: 887.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: First of all, we did not consider ourselves Protestants.
  zh: 首先，我们不认为自己是新教徒。
- start: 888.475
  end: 896.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Protestants, we believed, had left the Catholic Church in the 1500s—Luther and the other Protestants.
  zh: 我们认为新教徒是在16世纪离开公教会的——路德和其他新教徒。
- start: 897.663
  end: 911.71
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We considered ourselves the true Christians that had been since Christ's beginning and never joined the Catholic Church; that the Catholic Church left us, so to speak.
  zh: 我们认为自己是从基督创教以来就存在的真正基督徒，从未加入过公教会；可以说，是公教会离开了我们。
- start: 912.951
  end: 916.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s sort of a unique thing about Protestants.
  zh: 这是新教徒的一个独特之处。
- start: 916.032
  end: 922.953
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They talk about this golden thread that goes all the way back to the very, very beginning of the Church.
  zh: 他们谈论着一条一直延伸到教会最初始的金线。
- start: 924.894
  end: 929.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just between you and me, Jim, don’t tell anybody this, but it’s utter nonsense.
  zh: 吉姆，这话就说在你我之间，别告诉别人，但这完全是胡说八道。
- start: 929.775
  end: 937.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There is absolutely no historical or biblical evidence for that at all, but that’s what we believed.
  zh: 这完全没有任何历史或圣经依据，但那就是我们所相信的。
- start: 938.856
  end: 951.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: During the 1800s, Protestantism went through the Enlightenment, which started to affect Protestantism, where they began to reject all the supernatural.
  zh: 在19世纪，新教经历了启蒙运动的影响，他们开始否定一切超自然的事物。
- start: 952.1
  end: 961.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They started to call into question the biblical inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of Scripture itself.
  zh: 他们开始质疑圣经的默示、无误性和绝对正确性。
- start: 961.306
  end: 965.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They began to call into question the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
  zh: 他们开始质疑耶稣基督的死亡和复活。
- start: 966.189
  end: 979.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They started to call into question the virgin birth, all of these different beliefs that, actually, as fundamentalists, we protected and shared with Catholics.
  zh: 他们开始质疑童贞女生子，以及所有这些不同的信仰，实际上，作为基要主义者，我们和公教会一样都维护这些信仰。
- start: 979.876
  end: 986.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I never thought about that, but we were much more akin to Catholics than we were to liberal Protestants.
  zh: 我从未想过这一点，但我们其实比自由派新教徒更接近公教会。
- start: 987.842
  end: 996.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So when they went that direction, the fundamentalists became more of a movement.
  zh: 所以当他们走向那个方向时，基要主义者就更多地成为一个运动。
- start: 997.109
  end: 1002.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Before that, they weren't as much of a movement, but it happened up in New York.
  zh: 在那之前，他们还不太像一个运动，但这事发生在纽约。
- start: 1002.471
  end: 1011.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They got together and came up with the five fundamentals of the faith, and that’s where the word fundamentalist started to be applied to religions.
  zh: 他们聚在一起提出了信仰的五个基要，这就是「基要主义者」这个词开始用于宗教的由来。
- start: 1011.837
  end: 1022.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The fundamentals of the faith included the virgin birth, inspiration of Scripture, the death and resurrection of Christ, the second coming of Christ, and salvation by faith alone.
  zh: 信仰的基要包括童贞女生子、圣经默示、基督的死亡与复活、基督的再来，以及因信称义。
- start: 1022.323
  end: 1025.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They enumerated those, and that was what we believed.
  zh: 他们列举了这些，这就是我们所信的。
- start: 1025.865
  end: 1030.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was a very, very sparse religion.
  zh: 这是一个非常非常简朴的宗教。
- start: 1032.157
  end: 1037.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The church we went to had no cross anywhere in the church; there was never an image anywhere.
  zh: 我们去的教堂里到处都没有十字架，也没有任何图像。
- start: 1037.94
  end: 1042.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We were very iconoclastic; there was no image of anyone in the church.
  zh: 我们非常反对偶像崇拜，教堂里没有任何人的图像。
- start: 1042.442
  end: 1055.487
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only thing—and it was a beautiful building, a huge church that my dad was pastor of—was that it had beautiful arched ceilings.
  zh: 唯一的特点——这是一座美丽的建筑，一座我父亲担任牧师的大教堂——就是它有美丽的拱形天花板。
- start: 1056.653
  end: 1058.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But there was not an image anywhere.
  zh: 但哪里都没有图像。
- start: 1058.354
  end: 1076.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only thing in the church, as you sat and looked at the front, that you saw that was not just plain paint or a plant or paneling of wood were two Bible verses that were printed at the very top on each side of the pulpit.
  zh: 在教堂里，当你坐着看向前方时，除了普通的油漆、植物或木板之外，唯一能看到的就是讲台两侧顶部印着的两节圣经经文。
- start: 1076.462
  end: 1082.824
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then there was a baptismal in between them, but there was nothing other than that in the church.
  zh: 在它们中间有一个洗礼池，但教堂里除此之外什么都没有。
- start: 1083.645
  end: 1094.368
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We sang a lot; we had a great organ, and the main thing that we did during the service was listen to a sermon.
  zh: 我们唱很多诗歌，我们有一个很好的管风琴，在礼拜中我们主要做的就是听讲道。
- start: 1096.089
  end: 1104.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I would chuckle to myself when my kids or my grandkids complain about a 12, 13, or 14-minute homily because we usually had 45 to 50-minute sermons.
  zh: 当我的孩子或孙子抱怨12、13或14分钟的讲道时，我会暗自发笑，因为我们通常要听45到50分钟的讲道。
- start: 1108.564
  end: 1119.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, my mind did tend to wander sometimes in 45 to 50 minutes, but that’s what our worship was like.
  zh: 是的，在这45到50分钟里我的思绪有时确实会走神，但我们的礼拜就是这样的。
- start: 1119.552
  end: 1135.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We went to church three times on Sunday, once on Wednesday, and then we had youth group on Friday, so it pretty much capitalized your social calendar.
  zh: 我们周日去教堂三次，周三一次，然后周五还有青年团契，所以这基本上占据了你的社交时间表。
- start: 1136.445
  end: 1146.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s why I really didn’t have many non-fundamentalist friends growing up, because we were so involved in what we were doing at church.
  zh: 这就是为什么我成长过程中几乎没有非基要主义者的朋友，因为我们都忙于教会的活动。
- start: 1147.269
  end: 1148.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Good people.
  zh: 都是好人。
- start: 1149.67
  end: 1159.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m thankful for the knowledge and the love of God that was imparted to me by my family and by my church, the knowledge of Scripture.
  zh: 我很感激我的家人和教会给我传授的对神的认识和爱，以及对圣经的认识。
- start: 1159.753
  end: 1163.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m very, very thankful for that.
  zh: 我对此非常非常感激。
- start: 1163.479
  end: 1168.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What I came to the conclusion was that they were just wrong on some very basic issues.
  zh: 我最后得出的结论是，他们在一些很基本的问题上是错的。
- start: 1169.461
  end: 1173.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Does that sort of answer your question, Jim, or do you want me to go into more of that?
  zh: 吉姆，这算是回答了你的问题吗，还是你想让我说得更详细些？
- start: 1173.503
  end: 1174.824
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: No, very much so.
  zh: 不用了，已经很充分了。
- start: 1174.824
  end: 1182.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And yeah, really, it's a foundation that—because you were really willing.
  zh: 是的，这确实是一个基础——因为你真的愿意去探索。
- start: 1182.607
  end: 1210.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: My sense is, when I read your story in the book and then read through the book and just the overall sense of things, and even as you begin to share your story with us here, there was a certain—I would call it, I guess, a humility about you to say, Hey, if I'm seeing something here that doesn't go together, then I'm not going to just ignore it and move on and forget about it.
  zh: 我的感觉是，当我读你书中的故事，读完整本书，对整体有了认识，甚至现在你开始和我们分享你的故事时，你有一种特质——我想我会称之为谦逊，你会说，嘿，如果我看到什么地方不协调，我就不会简单地忽视它然后继续前进把它忘掉。
- start: 1210.489
  end: 1213.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: I'm going to try to look deeper into it.
  zh: 我要试着更深入地研究它。
- start: 1213.093
  end: 1225.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And that led you down the road that allowed you to be open to receive greater truth and greater graces, I think, that God was pouring out for you.
  zh: 我想，这引导你走上了一条路，使你能够开放地接受神为你倾注的更大的真理和恩典。
- start: 1225.984
  end: 1229.447
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: I think this is really something that is a lesson for every person, right?
  zh: 我想这确实是每个人都能从中学到的一课，对吧？
- start: 1229.447
  end: 1242.11
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: If we can have a fundamental disposition of humility, then the Lord is going to be able to really build us up in truth and grace as He wants to.
  zh: 如果我们能有一个基本的谦卑态度，那么主就能按照他的旨意在真理和恩典上建立我们。
- start: 1242.11
  end: 1246.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: But that fundamental disposition of humility is key.
  zh: 但这种基本的谦卑态度是关键。
- start: 1246.173
  end: 1251.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And so the story that you were sharing right before the break is really, I think, a good example of that.
  zh: 所以我认为你在休息前分享的故事就是一个很好的例子。
- start: 1251.398
  end: 1275.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So you were saying you were a preacher's kid, you were in that pipeline to become a preacher yourself, but you see how you have this belief in sola scriptura—Scripture alone, the Bible alone—and yet you're coming across Scripture passages that don't line up with the fundamentalist teachings that you had come to understand.
  zh: 你说你是传道人的孩子，你也在成为传道人的路上，但你看到你有这种唯独圣经的信念——只有圣经，单靠圣经——然而你遇到了一些与你所理解的基要主义教导不符的经文。
- start: 1276.157
  end: 1281.38
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So there's something that doesn't go together here; you're asking questions.
  zh: 所以这里有些东西对不上；你开始提出问题。
- start: 1281.401
  end: 1287.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Eventually, you have a big guy over from Moody Bible College, I think you said, at dinner.
  zh: 最后，我记得你说有一位慕迪圣经学院的重要人物来吃晚饭。
- start: 1287.683
  end: 1288.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yeah, continue on with that story.
  zh: 是的，继续讲那个故事吧。
- start: 1288.964
  end: 1290.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Tell us what happened next.
  zh: 告诉我们后来发生了什么。
- start: 1291.106
  end: 1298.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, during the break, I just looked up the verse so I can read the verse to you exactly so that there's no confusion.
  zh: 是的，在休息时间，我刚查了那节经文，这样我可以准确地读给你听，以免有任何混淆。
- start: 1298.671
  end: 1316.523
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'It''s Colossians chapter 1, verse 24, and it says, Paul is speaking: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ''s afflictions for the sake of his body, the Church.'
  zh: 是歌罗西书第一章24节，保罗说：现在我为你们受苦，倒觉欢乐，并且为基督的身体，就是为教会，要在我肉身上补满基督患难的缺欠。
- start: 1317.35
  end: 1323.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I just couldn't figure out how that could possibly fit into anything that I believed.
  zh: 我就是想不通这怎么可能符合我所信的任何东西。
- start: 1323.314
  end: 1325.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I didn't understand how it could be.
  zh: 我不明白这怎么可能。
- start: 1325.135
  end: 1329.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Not only would fundamentalists have trouble with that, but all Protestants would have trouble with that.
  zh: 不仅基要主义者会对此有困扰，所有新教徒都会对此有困扰。
- start: 1329.937
  end: 1331.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So yes, it was Dr. Walvoord.
  zh: 所以是的，是沃尔沃德博士。
- start: 1331.758
  end: 1344.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He was actually the president of Dallas Seminary down in Dallas, Texas, but very much like Moody Bible Institute, and the theology would be hand in glove.
  zh: 他实际上是德克萨斯州达拉斯神学院的院长，但与慕迪圣经学院很相似，神学观点也是完全一致的。
- start: 1345.518
  end: 1361.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I asked him that question, and he turned to me—here I am, about an eighth grader trying to struggle through this verse—and he said, Dave, you don't ever want to base your theology on an unclear verse.
  zh: 我问了他那个问题，他转向我——在这里我只是个试图理解这节经文的八年级学生——他说，戴夫，你永远不要把你的神学建立在一个不清楚的经文上。
- start: 1362.842
  end: 1364.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And this is an unclear verse?
  zh: 这就是一节不清楚的经文吗？
- start: 1364.942
  end: 1373.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, I was in eighth grade, and he was the president of a seminary, but I knew that verse wasn't unclear.
  zh: 好吧，我那时是八年级学生，他是神学院院长，但我知道那节经文并不含糊。
- start: 1375.12
  end: 1385.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The problem wasn't that the verse was unclear; the problem was I didn't agree with the verse, and that's a totally different issue.
  zh: 问题不是经文不清楚，问题是我不同意这节经文，这是完全不同的问题。
- start: 1386.444
  end: 1397.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I didn't say anything, but I put that verse into the back of my head, along with lots of verses—a verse in Zechariah that I found when I was in high school.
  zh: 所以我没说什么，但我把那节经文记在心里，还有很多其他经文——包括我在高中时发现的撒迦利亚书中的一节。
- start: 1397.008
  end: 1407.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There are verses all over the place, and I went to seminary partly to get all those verses sorted out and put together.
  zh: 到处都有这样的经文，我去神学院部分原因就是想把所有这些经文理清楚并串起来。
- start: 1409.119
  end: 1425.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What I found when I got to seminary, Trinity Seminary, is I believe the largest evangelical Protestant seminary in the world—it was at least at the time that I was there—and they have people from all different theological backgrounds.
  zh: 当我到了三一神学院时，我相信这是世界上最大的福音派新教神学院——至少在我在那里的时候是——他们有来自不同神学背景的人。
- start: 1425.592
  end: 1435.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're all Protestant, but I couldn't find any professors that could answer any of the verses that were giving me problems.
  zh: 他们都是新教徒，但我找不到任何教授能回答那些让我困扰的经文。
- start: 1436.634
  end: 1440.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that was a problem, Jim.
  zh: 所以这是个问题，吉姆。
- start: 1440.935
  end: 1453.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I didn't know how to handle that, but I went into Christian service, and I wasn't in Christian service for a real long time—a few years—when I decided, You know what?
  zh: 我不知道该如何处理，但我进入了基督教事工，我在基督教事工没有待很长时间——几年后——我决定，你知道吗？
- start: 1455.238
  end: 1456.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’ve got to figure this out.
  zh: 我必须弄明白这个。
- start: 1457.299
  end: 1459.319
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’ve got to figure this out for myself.
  zh: 我必须自己弄明白这个。
- start: 1460.5
  end: 1467.374
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s what sort of started the whole journey down Catholicism.
  zh: 这就是开启了我走向公教会的整个旅程。
- start: 1467.374
  end: 1474.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was studying the Bible; I was still active in the church, but I wasn't in full-time service.
  zh: 我在研究圣经，我仍然活跃在教会中，但我不是全职事奉。
- start: 1474.94
  end: 1480.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was a deacon at a Baptist church, and I had the best gig that you can have in a Baptist church.
  zh: 我是浸信会教堂的一名执事，而且我在浸信会教堂有最好的差事。
- start: 1480.864
  end: 1483.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was the adult Sunday school teacher.
  zh: 我是成人主日学的老师。
- start: 1483.046
  end: 1486.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, you talk to anybody that’s involved in any Protestant church; that’s the best gig.
  zh: 现在，你跟任何参与新教教会的人说说，这是最好的差事。
- start: 1486.989
  end: 1505.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s a better gig than the pastor because you get to prepare one really intensive one-hour-long Bible study on whatever you decide to talk about, and you have people that are there that really want to be there, and it’s a discussion format.
  zh: 这比牧师的差事还好，因为你可以准备一个一小时的深入查经，讲任何你想讲的内容，而且来听的人都是真心想来的，还是讨论的形式。
- start: 1505.641
  end: 1507.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I loved it.
  zh: 我很喜欢这个。
- start: 1507.622
  end: 1513.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I had been teaching it for a while, and we were coming to the end, I believe, of the Gospel of Luke or something.
  zh: 我教了一段时间，我记得当时我们快讲完路加福音还是什么。
- start: 1513.906
  end: 1519.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t remember exactly what it was, but I said, What do you guys want to study next week?
  zh: 我不太记得具体是什么了，但我说，你们下周想学什么？
- start: 1519.11
  end: 1532.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There were usually about 50 to 60 adults, all with their Bibles geared up to study, and they decided that they wanted to study the Book of Daniel.
  zh: 通常有50到60个成年人，都带着圣经准备学习，他们决定要学但以理书。
- start: 1535.151
  end: 1548.094
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, I didn’t want to teach the Book of Daniel because Daniel had a lot of the verses that I was having trouble with that I hadn’t been able to figure out, and I didn’t think that Daniel agreed at all with Protestantism.
  zh: 我不想教但以理书，因为但以理书里有很多我还没弄明白的经文让我感到困扰，而且我认为但以理书完全不符合新教教义。
- start: 1548.797
  end: 1574.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I got overruled, and Jim, it was within about a year and a half of that Sunday school class that I was being accepted into the Roman Catholic Church because I said, Okay, if I’m going to teach this, I’m going to have to study this really closely because I can’t go up and say, 'Well, I don’t understand this verse, guys.'
  zh: 但我被否决了，吉姆，在那个主日学课程开始后大约一年半的时间里，我被接纳进了罗马公教会，因为我说，好吧，如果我要教这个，我就必须非常仔细地研究，因为我不能站在那里说，'好吧，伙计们，我不理解这节经文。'
- start: 1575.607
  end: 1585.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And as I started to study it in depth in a way that I’d never studied before—and Jim, a lot of this is grace too.
  zh: 当我开始以前所未有的方式深入研究它时——吉姆，这其中也有很多恩典。
- start: 1585.444
  end: 1587.065
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I want to make that real clear.
  zh: 我想把这一点说得很清楚。
- start: 1589.187
  end: 1597.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t know why all of a sudden I was studying these verses, and they started to make sense to me in a different way.
  zh: 我不知道为什么突然间我在研究这些经文时，它们开始以不同的方式对我产生意义。
- start: 1597.114
  end: 1601.698
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only thing I can say is God just had the scales dropped from my eyes.
  zh: 我只能说是神让我眼睛上的鳞片掉下来了。
- start: 1601.698
  end: 1604.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I just started to see things that I had never seen before.
  zh: 我开始看到我以前从未看到的东西。
- start: 1605.954
  end: 1619.947
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I came to the end of that class and realized that I was no longer premillennial; I couldn’t accept the whole idea that the kingdom was going to come in the future sometime and that we were going to go through this seven-year tribulation before we got there.
  zh: 到那个课程结束时，我意识到我不再是前千禧年派了；我不能接受神的国度将在未来某个时候来临，而且在那之前我们要经历七年大灾难的整个想法。
- start: 1620.689
  end: 1624.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I didn’t know where that left me, but I knew I couldn’t be there.
  zh: 我不知道这会让我走向何方，但我知道我不能停留在原地。
- start: 1626.434
  end: 1629.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And it looks like we’ve got another break coming up.
  zh: 看来我们又要休息了。
- start: 1629.516
  end: 1630.816
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yeah, we do.
  zh: 是的，是的。
- start: 1630.856
  end: 1631.216
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We do.
  zh: 确实。
- start: 1631.216
  end: 1637.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: David Curry is with us, author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, sharing some of his personal testimony with us today.
  zh: 大卫·柯里和我们在一起，他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者，今天和我们分享了他的一些个人见证。
- start: 1637.66
  end: 1638.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So powerful!
  zh: 太有力量了！
- start: 1638.46
  end: 1649.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Again, you can find it in chapter 1 of that book, but we’re getting some special little aspects of it here with him live with us today.
  zh: 你可以在那本书的第一章找到这些内容，但今天我们通过与他的现场对话了解到了一些特别的细节。
- start: 1649.606
  end: 1651.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Very blessed.
  zh: 非常蒙福。
- start: 1651.147
  end: 1678.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And yeah, David points out there the grace that is involved here, and yet again, the lesson of the response to that grace being one of receiving it and participating with it—not rejecting it, not running away from it because you don’t want to see it, you don’t want to deal with what it might mean—but to say yes and to participate and to take that next step with God’s grace.
  zh: 是的，大卫指出了这里所涉及的恩典，而且再次说明了对恩典的回应就是接受它并参与其中的功课——不是拒绝它，不是因为你不想看到它、不想面对它可能意味着什么而逃避——而是说愿意，并参与其中，靠着神的恩典迈出下一步。
- start: 1678.751
  end: 1680.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We’re going to talk about that next step when we get back.
  zh: 我们回来后会谈论那下一步。
- start: 1680.372
  end: 1680.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Stay tuned.
  zh: 请继续收听。
- start: 1680.692
  end: 1687.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: 'Music: Each weekday from 10 to 11 AM Eastern, The Station of the Cross brings you Mother Miriam Live.'
  zh: 音乐：每个工作日东部时间上午10点到11点，十字架电台为您带来玛利亚姆修女直播。
- start: 1687.634
  end: 1694.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Mother Miriam is a Catholic nun on a mission to bring Jesus and a message of hope to a world that has lost its way.
  zh: 玛利亚姆修女是一位公教会修女，她的使命是将耶稣和希望的信息带给迷失方向的世界。
- start: 1694.598
  end: 1701.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Hello, beloved, this is Mother Miriam, and I am thrilled to welcome you to Mother Miriam Live.
  zh: 亲爱的朋友们，你们好，我是玛利亚姆修女，我很高兴欢迎你们收看玛利亚姆修女直播。
- start: 1701.542
  end: 1706.365
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: As always, you’re going to be able to call, text, or email whatever your questions are.
  zh: 像往常一样，你可以通过电话、短信或电子邮件提出任何问题。
- start: 1706.365
  end: 1719.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: Through a partnership between The Station of the Cross and LifeSite News, you will be able to listen and watch Mother Miriam Live on YouTube and Facebook at The Station of the Cross, including past episodes on podcasts.
  zh: 通过十字架电台和生命网站新闻的合作，你可以在十字架电台的YouTube和Facebook上收听和观看玛利亚姆修女直播，包括播客上的往期节目。
- start: 1719.715
  end: 1720.695
  speaker: SPEAKER_08
  en: God bless you!
  zh: 愿神保佑你！
- start: 1720.695
  end: 1733.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: Listen on your local Station of the Cross affiliate and our free iCatholic Radio mobile app, or watch the Mother Miriam Live video stream on Facebook and YouTube by searching The Station of the Cross.
  zh: 你可以通过当地的十字架电台分台和我们免费的iCatholic Radio移动应用收听，或者在Facebook和YouTube上搜索十字架电台观看玛利亚姆修女的直播视频流。
- start: 1733.069
  end: 1739.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_06
  en: That’s Mother Miriam Live, each weekday from 10 to 11 AM Eastern on The Station of the Cross.
  zh: 这就是玛利亚姆修女直播，每个工作日东部时间上午10点到11点在十字架电台播出。
- start: 1741.949
  end: 1749.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: As a nonprofit lay organization financially independent from your diocese, our apostolate is listener-supported.
  zh: 作为一个在财务上独立于教区的非营利平信徒组织，我们的使徒工作靠听众支持。
- start: 1749.211
  end: 1756.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: The Station of the Cross thanks our supporters who have enabled us to broadcast Catholic programs for more than 20 years.
  zh: 十字架电台感谢那些使我们能够播放公教节目超过20年的支持者们。
- start: 1756.033
  end: 1765.736
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Through your generosity, we are able to inspire countless listeners with the Gospel message and help lead them to a parish to be spiritually nourished by the sacraments.
  zh: 通过你们的慷慨，我们能够用福音信息启发无数听众，帮助引导他们到堂区接受圣事的灵性滋养。
- start: 1765.736
  end: 1770.197
  speaker: SPEAKER_02
  en: Thank you for your continued support, and may God bless you and your family.
  zh: 感谢你们持续的支持，愿神保佑你们和你们的家人。
- start: 1772.228
  end: 1779.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Do you love listening to The Station of the Cross on your car radio but sometimes find yourself driving outside the listening area?
  zh: 你是否喜欢在车载收音机上收听十字架电台，但有时发现自己开车超出了收听范围？
- start: 1779.114
  end: 1781.737
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Never miss another minute of your favorite show!
  zh: 永远不要错过你最喜欢的节目的任何一分钟！
- start: 1781.737
  end: 1788.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Download the iCatholic Radio app so you can listen anywhere in the world, 24 hours a day.
  zh: 下载iCatholic Radio应用，这样你就可以在世界任何地方全天候收听。
- start: 1788.002
  end: 1795.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: The iCatholic Radio app is available for your phone in the Apple Store or for your Android phone in Google Play.
  zh: iCatholic Radio应用可在苹果商店或谷歌商店下载到你的手机上。
- start: 1795.449
  end: 1797.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: Visit TheStationoftheCross.com
  zh: 访问TheStationoftheCross.com
- start: 1797.871
  end: 1799.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_03
  en: for more information.
  zh: 获取更多信息。
- start: 1804.474
  end: 1805.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Welcome back to The Simple Truth.
  zh: 欢迎回到《简单真理》。
- start: 1805.714
  end: 1811.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Jim Havens here with our guest today, David Curry, author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 我是吉姆·哈文斯，今天我们的嘉宾是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者大卫·柯里。
- start: 1811.497
  end: 1814.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Get the book again, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 再次推荐这本书，《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》。
- start: 1814.998
  end: 1821.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: You will be very glad that you got this great resource for ongoing formation and ongoing conversion.
  zh: 你会很高兴拥有这本对持续培育和持续皈依很有帮助的优秀资源。
- start: 1821.6
  end: 1832.064
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We always want to be getting better and better at our ability to transmit the faith, especially to many children, grandchildren, or anybody in our midst.
  zh: 我们总是希望在传递信仰的能力上越来越好，特别是对我们周围的许多孩子、孙子或任何人。
- start: 1832.745
  end: 1840.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So we have a great blessing here in this book, the way that David lays it all out for us in Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 所以这本书是一个很大的祝福，大卫在《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》中为我们详细阐述了这一切。
- start: 1840.389
  end: 1848.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: But David, share with us a little bit more in terms of just connecting the dots to that coming into the Catholic faith.
  zh: 但是大卫，请再多跟我们分享一些关于你是如何走向公教信仰的细节。
- start: 1848.112
  end: 1855.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So you start to see that things aren't lining up; you start to take a deeper look.
  zh: 所以你开始发现事情对不上；你开始深入研究。
- start: 1855.917
  end: 1859.498
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Is there anything that you want to share that connects the dots from there?
  zh: 从那里开始，你有什么想分享的来把这些点连接起来吗？
- start: 1861.759
  end: 1866.06
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: I remember reading this in the book; I recently read it again not long ago.
  zh: 我记得在书中读到过这些；我最近又重读了一遍。
- start: 1866.801
  end: 1884.632
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: There’s the difficulty of, once you do come to realize, Well, the Catholic Church is the one true Church; I've got to become Catholic, and the fact that coming from a fundamentalist background, now you’ve got a different conflict going on.
  zh: 当你意识到公教会是唯一真实的教会，我必须成为公教徒时，会遇到困难，而且事实上，由于你来自基要主义背景，现在你面临着不同的冲突。
- start: 1884.632
  end: 1889.794
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: It’s not so easy, even when you see the truth of it, to actually take that action.
  zh: 即使你看到了真理，要采取实际行动也并不容易。
- start: 1889.794
  end: 1900.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: There’s a lot that is very troublesome about that with respect to family, friends, everything.
  zh: 关于家人、朋友，一切事情都会变得非常麻烦。
- start: 1900.966
  end: 1903.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So is there anything that you want to share to get us to that point?
  zh: 所以你有什么想分享的来帮我们理解这一点吗？
- start: 1903.927
  end: 1912.129
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And then I definitely want to hear more about how you handled that and how you were able really to get over that threshold, even with all the many obstacles.
  zh: 然后我真的很想听听你是如何处理的，以及你是如何真正跨过那个门槛的，即使面对那么多障碍。
- start: 1913.429
  end: 1915.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Sure, sure!
  zh: 当然，当然！
- start: 1916.15
  end: 1933.224
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, I’d say probably the moment at which I decided I had to be Catholic was after I did a careful study of John chapter 6. It was exactly a year before the Passover, before Jesus died.
  zh: 是的，我想我决定必须成为公教徒的那一刻，是在我仔细研究了约翰福音第六章之后。那是在逾越节前一年，在耶稣受死之前。
- start: 1935.065
  end: 1944.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We all know those verses, you know, where Jesus says, You have to feed on my body; you have to eat my body.
  zh: 我们都知道那些经文，就是耶稣说，你们必须吃我的身体；你们必须吃我的肉。
- start: 1944.75
  end: 1952.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He lost all kinds of disciples over that, and He turned to the other disciples, the twelve, and said, Are you going to leave too?
  zh: 他因此失去了各种门徒，然后他转向其他十二个门徒说，你们也要走吗？
- start: 1953.055
  end: 1958.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And they said—sort of what they said is, Well, we would, except we don’t know where we’d go.
  zh: 他们说——他们的意思大概是，好吧，我们也想走，但是我们不知道该去哪里。
- start: 1958.765
  end: 1960.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s sort of what they said.
  zh: 他们大概是这个意思。
- start: 1961.967
  end: 1965.17
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I realized that I wasn’t the only person having problems with this.
  zh: 所以我意识到我不是唯一对此有困扰的人。
- start: 1965.17
  end: 1967.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I studied John the Baptist, and I realized, You know what?
  zh: 但我研究了施洗约翰，我意识到，你知道吗？
- start: 1969.072
  end: 1975.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Catholic Church is probably right or wrong about every other doctrine that they teach, but they’re right about the Eucharist.
  zh: 公教会在他们教导的其他教义上可能对也可能错，但他们在圣体圣事上是对的。
- start: 1975.717
  end: 1981.581
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That was the first part of Catholic theology that I said, No, they’re right about this.
  zh: 这是我第一次对公教会神学说，不，他们在这一点上是对的。
- start: 1981.702
  end: 1985.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They are absolutely right about the Eucharist.
  zh: 他们在圣体圣事上绝对是对的。
- start: 1985.746
  end: 1997.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'I tell people if there was just one verse that made me become a Catholic, it was John 6, verse 51: You have to eat my body, and that body is my flesh.'
  zh: 我告诉人们如果只有一节经文让我成为公教徒，那就是约翰福音6章51节：你们必须吃我的身体，这身体就是我的肉。
- start: 1997.251
  end: 1999.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, He’s so clear—so clear!
  zh: 你知道，他说得如此清楚——太清楚了！
- start: 1999.092
  end: 2000.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I studied in Greek in seminary and missed it.
  zh: 我在神学院学过希腊文却还是错过了这点。
- start: 2000.933
  end: 2004.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, that’s why I say, Jim, there are scales that have to come off of you.
  zh: 你知道，这就是为什么我说，吉姆，必须有鳞片从你眼睛上掉下来。
- start: 2004.974
  end: 2013.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We have to pray for people because God’s grace is the only one that really gets us to have those scales fall off.
  zh: 我们必须为人们祈祷，因为只有神的恩典才能真正让那些鳞片掉下来。
- start: 2015.018
  end: 2018.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I started to read the early Church Fathers.
  zh: 我开始阅读早期教父的著作。
- start: 2019.381
  end: 2025.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I started to read Pope John Paul II, and I started to compare that.
  zh: 我开始阅读教宗若望保禄二世的著作，并开始进行比较。
- start: 2025.786
  end: 2031.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I started to read Church history from a Catholic perspective—things which I had never done.
  zh: 我开始从公教会的角度阅读教会历史——这是我从未做过的事。
- start: 2032.531
  end: 2041.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I took a patristics class in seminary, but looking back, it was just little snippets that they took out of the patristics.
  zh: 我在神学院上过教父学课程，但回想起来，那只是从教父著作中摘取的一些片段。
- start: 2041.217
  end: 2050.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I started to read the patristics; I started to read the Church Fathers, and what I came to realize is that they were right on everything.
  zh: 我开始阅读教父学著作；我开始阅读教父们的著作，我意识到他们在所有事情上都是对的。
- start: 2051.147
  end: 2054.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They were right on absolutely everything.
  zh: 他们在绝对一切事情上都是对的。
- start: 2057.111
  end: 2065.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s what I cover in the book because they fell one by one by one, and I realized I have to become Catholic.
  zh: 这就是我在书中所写的，因为这些问题一个接一个被解决了，我意识到我必须成为公教徒。
- start: 2067.778
  end: 2073.722
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I remember I woke up one day; it was a Saturday.
  zh: 我记得有一天醒来，那是个星期六。
- start: 2074.414
  end: 2089.799
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because they didn't have to go to work, I turned to my wife, who was just waking up also, and I said, Colleen, I really believe—I really believe it's true.
  zh: 因为不用上班，我转向也刚醒来的妻子，说：科琳，我真的相信——我真的相信这是真的。
- start: 2092.26
  end: 2098.682
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was the first time I really knew that I knew that I believed that the Eucharist was what the Catholic Church said.
  zh: 这是我第一次真正知道我相信圣体圣事就是公教会所说的那样。
- start: 2098.682
  end: 2117.309
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I didn't even need to tell her I was talking about the Eucharist because we had talked so much about things, but she knew I was talking about the Eucharist—that I believed that at that Catholic Church, the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ was present and available if I just joined the Church.
  zh: 我甚至不需要告诉她我在说圣体圣事，因为我们已经谈论过很多事情，但她知道我在说圣体圣事——我相信在公教会里，如果我加入教会，耶稣基督的身体、血、灵魂和天主性就真实临在并可以领受。
- start: 2119.09
  end: 2124.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, one thing we always agreed with Catholics about is that we didn't have that at the Baptist Church.
  zh: 现在，我们一直与公教徒达成共识的一点是，我们在浸信会教堂里没有这个。
- start: 2124.792
  end: 2133.216
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In other words, the Catholic priest would say, No, you don't have the body of Christ at the Baptist Church, and we would agree, You're right, we don't, because we thought it was only a symbol.
  zh: 换句话说，公教会神父会说，不，你们在浸信会教堂没有基督的身体，我们会同意说，你说得对，我们没有，因为我们认为那只是一个象征。
- start: 2135.457
  end: 2145.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My wife, bless her heart, had told me earlier, Dave, if I had wanted to be married to a Catholic, I would have dated Catholics, and I didn't date Catholics.
  zh: 我的妻子，愿主保佑她，早些时候告诉我说：戴夫，如果我想嫁给一个公教徒，我就会和公教徒约会，但我没有和公教徒约会。
- start: 2146.206
  end: 2150.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So she was struggling, you know, herself through all these issues.
  zh: 所以你知道，她自己也在经历这些问题的挣扎。
- start: 2150.57
  end: 2159.256
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But bless her heart, that day in bed, she said, You know, Dave, if you really feel that way, you need to go to the Catholic priest down the block and talk to him.
  zh: 但愿主保佑她，那天在床上，她说：你知道，戴夫，如果你真的有这种感觉，你需要去找街区那边的公教会神父谈谈。
- start: 2160.878
  end: 2162.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I said, Yeah, I guess I do.
  zh: 我说，是的，我想我该这么做。
- start: 2162.785
  end: 2166.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I made an appointment and went down to talk to Father Terry.
  zh: 所以我预约了时间去见特里神父。
- start: 2167.468
  end: 2170.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He told me, Dave, I don't think you should do this.
  zh: 他告诉我说：戴夫，我觉得你不应该这样做。
- start: 2170.45
  end: 2171.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think it's going to be too hard.
  zh: 我觉得这会太难了。
- start: 2171.791
  end: 2172.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I said, Yeah, it's going to be hard.
  zh: 我说，是的，这会很难。
- start: 2172.872
  end: 2174.192
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I know it's going to be hard.
  zh: 我知道这会很难。
- start: 2174.513
  end: 2179.616
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I may get disowned over this, which I did end up being; my dad disowned me over it.
  zh: 我可能会因此被家人断绝关系，事实上最后确实如此；我父亲因此与我断绝了关系。
- start: 2179.616
  end: 2186.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I said, Yeah, I know it's going to be hard, but if it's the truth, I want to do that.
  zh: 但我说，是的，我知道这会很难，但如果这是真理，我想这样做。
- start: 2187.441
  end: 2191.124
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He said, Well, no, I don't think it's too hard.
  zh: 他说，嗯，不，我不是觉得太难。
- start: 2191.124
  end: 2192.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Don't do it.
  zh: 别这样做。
- start: 2192.597
  end: 2207.163
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I went back, and I was more discouraged, Jim, at that point than at any other time in my journey because I was trying to follow the truth, and then I just found out that I wasn't even Catholic, but I believed in the Catholic faith more than the parish priest on the block.
  zh: 我回去后，吉姆，那时比我整个旅程中的任何时候都更沮丧，因为我在试图追随真理，然后我发现我甚至还不是公教徒，但我对公教信仰的相信却比街区的堂区神父还要深。
- start: 2209.484
  end: 2228.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I didn't know exactly what to do, and God brought into my life two lawyers who were very, very firm, solid, knowledgeable Catholics, and they put me in contact with a priest, Father Peter, who has ended up being my spiritual director for 30 years.
  zh: 所以我不知道该怎么办，这时神带领两位律师进入我的生活，他们是非常坚定、稳重、有见识的公教徒，他们让我认识了一位神父，彼得神父，他后来成为了我三十年的灵修导师。
- start: 2231.791
  end: 2237.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For the first time, I had people tell me, Dave, what's happening to you is grace.
  zh: 这是我第一次有人告诉我：戴夫，发生在你身上的是恩典。
- start: 2237.436
  end: 2239.917
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is the grace of God; that's what's happening to you.
  zh: 这是神的恩典，这就是发生在你身上的事。
- start: 2240.858
  end: 2243.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Embrace it, follow it, do it!
  zh: 拥抱它，跟随它，去做吧！
- start: 2243.701
  end: 2246.222
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, I knew I couldn't do it without my wife.
  zh: 我知道没有我妻子我做不到。
- start: 2247.504
  end: 2250.986
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I couldn't; I just couldn't. I'm too weak.
  zh: 我做不到，真的做不到。我太软弱了。
- start: 2251.86
  end: 2254.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I started getting her to read books.
  zh: 所以我开始让她读一些书。
- start: 2254.882
  end: 2261.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The book that made the most sense to her was Tom Howard's Evangelical Is Not Enough.
  zh: 对她来说最有意义的书是汤姆·霍华德的《福音派是不够的》。
- start: 2263.648
  end: 2271.034
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I told Tom before he died once that he gave me my wife back because she said, Yeah, this makes sense to me now.
  zh: 在汤姆去世前，我曾告诉他说他把我的妻子还给了我，因为她说，是的，这对我来说现在说得通了。
- start: 2271.034
  end: 2278.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we studied with the kids, and it took about six months to get the whole family together about this decision.
  zh: 所以我们和孩子们一起学习，花了大约六个月时间让全家人在这个决定上达成一致。
- start: 2279.513
  end: 2283.057
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We all came into the Church on the same day.
  zh: 我们全家在同一天进入了教会。
- start: 2283.057
  end: 2287.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We had six kids at that time; my oldest was in eighth grade, so he was making his own decision.
  zh: 那时我们有六个孩子，最大的在八年级，所以他是自己做的决定。
- start: 2287.981
  end: 2290.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My sixth grader was making his own decision.
  zh: 我的六年级孩子也是自己做的决定。
- start: 2291.745
  end: 2296.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We had two more kids after we became Catholic.
  zh: 在我们成为公教徒后又有了两个孩子。
- start: 2296.389
  end: 2305.457
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'And Jim, I can tell you this much: it is the best decision I have ever made.'
  zh: 吉姆，我可以告诉你：这是我做过的最好的决定。
- start: 2306.474
  end: 2310.875
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The best decision I've ever made was to come into the Church.
  zh: 进入教会是我做过的最好的决定。
- start: 2311.636
  end: 2323.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I say that realizing that it wasn't just my decision; there was this tremendous amount of grace that was poured out on me, my wife, and my kids so that we all could come in together.
  zh: 我说这话时意识到这不仅仅是我的决定；有大量的恩典倾注在我、我的妻子和孩子们身上，使我们能够一起进入教会。
- start: 2323.54
  end: 2331.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But what a wonderful place this Church is to raise kids and to just travel in our pilgrimage to heaven.
  zh: 这个教会是多么美好的地方啊，可以在这里抚养孩子，一起走天路朝圣。
- start: 2332.643
  end: 2338.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only stipulation my wife said was, Okay, Dave, if we're going to be Catholic, she goes, I think you're right.
  zh: 我妻子唯一的条件是：好的，戴夫，如果我们要成为公教徒，她说，我觉得你是对的。
- start: 2338.772
  end: 2340.914
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think the Catholic Church is what we need to do.
  zh: 我觉得加入公教会是我们该做的。
- start: 2340.914
  end: 2342.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think it is true.
  zh: 我觉得这是真实的。
- start: 2343.255
  end: 2347.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We're not going to be Protestants; we're not going to shop around for a Catholic parish we like.
  zh: 我们不会做新教徒；我们也不会到处挑选我们喜欢的公教堂区。
- start: 2347.959
  end: 2353.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If we're going to be Catholics, we're going to be Catholics, and that means we're going to go to the parish down the block.
  zh: 如果我们要成为公教徒，我们就要做真正的公教徒，这意味着我们要去街区那边的堂区。
- start: 2353.844
  end: 2357.106
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I said, But that's where Father Terry is; he told me I couldn't come in.
  zh: 我说，但特里神父在那里；他告诉我我不能加入。
- start: 2357.707
  end: 2359.828
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: She said, Well, you need to go talk to him.
  zh: 她说，好吧，你需要去和他谈谈。
- start: 2359.828
  end: 2362.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You need to convince him that he needs to let you come in.
  zh: 你需要说服他让你加入。
- start: 2363.735
  end: 2367.057
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I did, and we had a long conversation.
  zh: 所以我去了，我们进行了一次长谈。
- start: 2367.057
  end: 2376.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We talked for hours, and at the end of that, he said, Dave, we haven't had anybody come into this parish in years.
  zh: 我们谈了几个小时，最后他说，戴夫，这些年来我们堂区都没有新人加入。
- start: 2377.405
  end: 2380.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I thought to myself, Yeah, I know why that is, Father Terry.
  zh: 我心里想，是的，我知道为什么会这样，特里神父。
- start: 2381.387
  end: 2389.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But he said, So we don't really have an RCIA program, but you're under spiritual direction.
  zh: 但他说，所以我们没有成人入教课程，但你在接受灵修指导。
- start: 2390.314
  end: 2398.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was meeting with Father Peter like every week, and he said, When Father Peter thinks you're ready to come in, we'll accept you into the Church.
  zh: 我每周都和彼得神父见面，他说，当彼得神父认为你准备好了，我们就接纳你进入教会。
- start: 2400.341
  end: 2404.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we all came in together—my six kids, my wife, and I. We all came into the Church together.
  zh: 所以我们一起加入了——我的六个孩子、我的妻子和我。我们都一起进入了教会。
- start: 2404.823
  end: 2411.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My kids were baptized shortly thereafter, and I was confirmed with my son.
  zh: 我的孩子们不久之后就受了洗，我和我的儿子一起领受了坚振圣事。
- start: 2411.965
  end: 2426.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My oldest, eighth-grade son, was due for confirmation, so my wife and I—and I'd already been baptized as a child or as a teenager—had a blessed, wonderful experience coming into this Church.
  zh: 我最大的儿子，八年级的，正好要领受坚振圣事，所以我和我的妻子——我在孩童或青少年时期已经受过洗——有了一个蒙福的、美好的进入教会的经历。
- start: 2426.236
  end: 2428.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just a blessed, wonderful experience.
  zh: 真是一个蒙福的、美好的经历。
- start: 2428.476
  end: 2429.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Was it hard?
  zh: 这很难吗？
- start: 2429.777
  end: 2430.737
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh yeah, it was really hard.
  zh: 哦是的，真的很难。
- start: 2430.737
  end: 2434.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We lost all of our friends; we were disowned by my family.
  zh: 我们失去了所有的朋友；我的家人与我断绝了关系。
- start: 2436.78
  end: 2442.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Everything eventually got better with family, but it was hard.
  zh: 最终与家人的关系有所改善，但这个过程很艰难。
- start: 2444.244
  end: 2449.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And it was, Jim, it was worth every minute of the pain.
  zh: 但是，吉姆，每一分痛苦都是值得的。
- start: 2449.808
  end: 2456.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God has blessed us so much because we followed the truth that’s in the Bible.
  zh: 因为我们跟随圣经中的真理，神大大地祝福了我们。
- start: 2456.793
  end: 2457.814
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because guess what?
  zh: 因为你猜怎么着？
- start: 2457.814
  end: 2459.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is a Catholic book!
  zh: 这是一本公教会的书！
- start: 2459.135
  end: 2463.978
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As I kept finding, there were parts in it that I couldn't get to agree with Protestantism.
  zh: 我不断发现，其中有些部分我无法让它与新教教义协调一致。
- start: 2464.098
  end: 2469.342
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's a Catholic book, but there's so much more to the Church than just this book.
  zh: 这是一本公教会的书，但教会远不止这本书。
- start: 2469.963
  end: 2477.077
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God gave us an authority to interpret the books of the Bible; He gave us the sacraments.
  zh: 神给了我们解释圣经的权威；他给了我们圣事。
- start: 2477.138
  end: 2488.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I've tried to live this Christian faith seriously, with and without the sacraments, and Jim, I'll tell you, I think it's virtually impossible without the sacraments.
  zh: 我曾经认真地尝试过有圣事和没有圣事的基督徒生活，吉姆，我告诉你，我认为没有圣事几乎是不可能的。
- start: 2489.343
  end: 2494.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: With the sacraments, it's really, really hard, but it's not impossible.
  zh: 有了圣事，虽然真的很难，但并非不可能。
- start: 2494.305
  end: 2513.231
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, every once in a while, I have a week where I go, Yeah, I actually think I lived the way I'm supposed to this week, and then the next week I have to go to confession again because I didn't. But without the sacraments, it's just incredibly difficult to even try to live the Christian life.
  zh: 你知道，偶尔我会有这样的一周，我会说，是的，我觉得这周我真的过着应该过的生活，但下周我又得去告解了，因为我做不到。但是没有圣事，甚至尝试过基督徒的生活都是难以置信的困难。
- start: 2513.532
  end: 2517.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We have so many gifts in the Catholic Church.
  zh: 我们在公教会里有这么多恩赐。
- start: 2518.653
  end: 2524.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All my kids are practicing Catholics; all my grandkids are baptized.
  zh: 我所有的孩子都是实践信仰的公教徒；所有的孙辈都受了洗。
- start: 2524.575
  end: 2526.856
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God has been very, very gracious to our family.
  zh: 神对我们家庭非常非常仁慈。
- start: 2526.856
  end: 2528.736
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Not that we haven't gone through hard times.
  zh: 不是说我们没有经历过艰难时期。
- start: 2528.973
  end: 2536.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I had one of my kids come home in 10th grade and tell me he was an atheist, and that was some tough years.
  zh: 我有一个孩子在十年级时回家告诉我他是无神论者，那些年很艰难。
- start: 2538.338
  end: 2542.18
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I found the same thing with him; he's back in the Church.
  zh: 我在他身上发现了同样的事情；他回到了教会。
- start: 2542.4
  end: 2551.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I found the same thing with him that I found with my own heart, and that is prayer, Jim, is what makes the difference.
  zh: 我在他身上发现了和我自己心中一样的事情，那就是祈祷，吉姆，是祈祷带来了改变。
- start: 2552.245
  end: 2556.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I just prayed for him sometimes all night.
  zh: 我有时整夜为他祈祷。
- start: 2559.039
  end: 2560.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I choked up a little bit here, but sorry.
  zh: 我在这里有点哽咽，抱歉。
- start: 2562.921
  end: 2568.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I realized God wanted to answer that prayer more than I wanted Him to answer that prayer.
  zh: 我意识到神想要应允那个祷告，比我想要他应允的愿望还要强烈。
- start: 2570.045
  end: 2574.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God wanted me to come into the Catholic Church more than I wanted to come into the Church.
  zh: 神要我进入公教会的意愿，比我想要进入教会的意愿还要强烈。
- start: 2574.007
  end: 2580.61
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And believe me, I really wanted to come into the Catholic Church, but God wanted me to do it more than I did.
  zh: 相信我，我真的很想进入公教会，但神比我更想让我这样做。
- start: 2580.61
  end: 2586.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I just needed to have that faith and rest in the grace that He can bestow.
  zh: 我只需要有那样的信心，安息在他所能赐予的恩典中。
- start: 2587.893
  end: 2589.815
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's a great way to live, Jim.
  zh: 吉姆，这是一种很好的生活方式。
- start: 2591.157
  end: 2592.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Anything else I didn't cover?
  zh: 还有什么我没有提到的吗？
- start: 2592.158
  end: 2594.301
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: No, it's amazing!
  zh: 没有了，太精彩了！
- start: 2594.301
  end: 2620.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yeah, I mean, when you mentioned at the end, you know, the sacramental life and the authoritative teachings, the magisterial teachings, the ability to authoritatively interpret the Scriptures—which, by the way, were authoritatively put together by the Catholic Church to say which books are in and which books are out back in the early centuries.
  zh: 是的，我是说，当你在最后提到圣事生活和权威教导，训导权的教导，权威解释圣经的能力时——顺便说一下，正是公教会在早期世纪权威地编纂了圣经，决定哪些书卷应该收录，哪些不应该收录。
- start: 2620.374
  end: 2623.19
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So yes, this is a Catholic book.
  zh: 所以是的，这是一本公教会的书。
- start: 2623.19
  end: 2628.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And so, yet authority—to me, that was the big thing.
  zh: 所以，是的，权威——对我来说，这是最重要的事。
- start: 2628.772
  end: 2635.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: My story would be born Catholic, born again Catholic, and it was being lost.
  zh: 我的故事是生为公教徒，重生为公教徒，中间有一段迷失的时期。
- start: 2635.715
  end: 2646.32
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Then on my way to coming back, I realized, Okay, Jesus is real, but then, Where is He? There are all these different places claiming to be churches, and this is the real Church.
  zh: 然后在回归的路上，我意识到，好的，耶稣是真实的，但是他在哪里？这么多地方都声称是教会，而这才是真实的教会。
- start: 2646.92
  end: 2649.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So even though I was born Catholic, I thought, Well, maybe I was just born that way.
  zh: 所以即使我生来就是公教徒，我想，好吧，也许我只是生来如此。
- start: 2649.902
  end: 2667.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Let’s figure out what really is—where is He? As I started to think about that question and dig into that some, your book is one that I came across, and what you write there about authority was eye-opening to me.
  zh: 让我们弄清楚真相是什么——他在哪里？当我开始思考这个问题并深入研究时，我遇到了你的书，你在书中关于权威的论述让我大开眼界。
- start: 2667.852
  end: 2670.995
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: This, to me, was what everything hinged on for me.
  zh: 对我来说，这是一切的关键所在。
- start: 2670.995
  end: 2684.404
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: There’s only one Church that has authority; there’s only one Church that has apostolic succession, which I don’t think I had ever heard of until I read about it in your book.
  zh: 只有一个教会拥有权威；只有一个教会有使徒传承，在读到你的书之前我想我从未听说过这个。
- start: 2684.404
  end: 2689.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: That’s a pretty vital truth to be aware of.
  zh: 意识到这一点是非常重要的真理。
- start: 2689.486
  end: 2700.009
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: So once I started learning these things—and again, thank you for writing this book—I realized, Okay, no, I wasn’t just born Catholic; this is the one true Church, and I need to go back.
  zh: 所以一旦我开始学习这些东西——再次感谢你写了这本书——我意识到，好的，不，我不是仅仅生来就是公教徒；这是唯一真实的教会，我需要回归。
- start: 2700.009
  end: 2700.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We’re going to be right back.
  zh: 我们马上回来。
- start: 2700.709
  end: 2701.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Stay tuned.
  zh: 请继续收听。
- start: 2705.738
  end: 2713.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: If the cares and anxieties of life are weighing you down, come to the St. Thomas More House of Prayer and allow the Lord to refresh your soul.
  zh: 如果生活的忧虑和焦虑让你感到沉重，请来圣托马斯·莫尔祈祷之家，让主更新你的灵魂。
- start: 2714.185
  end: 2721.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: The St. Thomas More House of Prayer is a Catholic retreat center devoted to praying and promoting the Liturgy of the Hours.
  zh: 圣托马斯·莫尔祈祷之家是一个致力于祈祷和推广时辰祈祷的公教会退省中心。
- start: 2722.111
  end: 2729.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You’ll find a tranquil atmosphere that’s ideal for deep prayer, whether as an individual or for a group retreat.
  zh: 无论是个人还是团体退省，你都能在这里找到适合深度祈祷的宁静氛围。
- start: 2729.508
  end: 2734.931
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: We’re located at 365 Hill City Road in Cranberry, Pennsylvania.
  zh: 我们位于宾夕法尼亚州克兰贝里希尔城路365号。
- start: 2735.271
  end: 2740.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: Make your reservation today or learn more at LiturgyoftheHours.org.
  zh: 今天就预约或在LiturgyoftheHours.org了解更多信息。
- start: 2740.894
  end: 2750.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_12
  en: You can also call us at 814-676-1910. That’s 814-676-1910. We would love to help you experience the Liturgy of the Hours and discover the prayer that will change your life.
  zh: 你也可以拨打814-676-1910联系我们。重复一遍：814-676-1910。我们很乐意帮助你体验时辰祈祷，发现能改变你生命的祈祷。
- start: 2761.863
  end: 2768.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_10
  en: The iCatholic Radio mobile app is two apps in one—your place to hear great Catholic programs and music.
  zh: iCatholic Radio移动应用是二合一应用——你可以在这里收听优质的公教节目和音乐。
- start: 2768.509
  end: 2777.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Here’s what listeners are saying about the updated iCatholic Radio mobile app: Through the iCatholic Radio app, I have listened to the sermons and teachings several times.'
  zh: 这是听众对更新后的iCatholic Radio移动应用的评价：通过iCatholic Radio应用，我多次收听了讲道和教导。
- start: 2777.037
  end: 2780.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The effect has been a deeper understanding of my faith and Catholic tradition.
  zh: 这让我对信仰和公教传统有了更深的理解。
- start: 2780.78
  end: 2784.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This app has truly been a blessing in my life and has increased my faith.
  zh: 这个应用确实在我的生活中带来了祝福，增强了我的信仰。
- start: 2784.463
  end: 2795.985
  speaker: SPEAKER_10
  en: With the new app, you can choose to listen to our programs like Mother Miriam Live or The Catholic Current whenever you like, but you can also switch over to the best in contemporary music by Catholic artists.
  zh: 通过这个新应用，你可以随时收听我们的节目，如玛利亚姆修女直播或天主教时事，你也可以切换到公教艺术家的最佳当代音乐。
- start: 2796.086
  end: 2800.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_10
  en: We even bring you hours of Gregorian chant every Sunday morning.
  zh: 我们甚至每个星期天早上都为你带来数小时的额我略圣咏。
- start: 2800.667
  end: 2811.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_10
  en: If you do not currently have our app, download it to your iPhone through the Apple Store or to your Android phone by going to Google Play and searching iCatholic Radio.
  zh: 如果你目前还没有我们的应用，可以通过苹果商店下载到iPhone，或在谷歌商店搜索iCatholic Radio下载到安卓手机。
- start: 2812.228
  end: 2819.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_10
  en: The updated iCatholic Radio mobile app—your one-stop for great Catholic programs and music.
  zh: 更新后的iCatholic Radio移动应用——你获取优质公教节目和音乐的一站式平台。
- start: 2822.377
  end: 2824.939
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Welcome back to The Simple Truth.
  zh: 欢迎回到《简单真理》。
- start: 2824.939
  end: 2829.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Jim Havens here with David Curry, sharing some of his personal testimony with us today.
  zh: 我是吉姆·哈文斯，今天大卫·柯里与我们分享了他的一些个人见证。
- start: 2829.643
  end: 2833.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: He’s the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。
- start: 2833.466
  end: 2834.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Great book!
  zh: 好书！
- start: 2834.086
  end: 2838.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Get your hands on this book and share it with others as well.
  zh: 一定要读这本书，也和他人分享。
- start: 2838.877
  end: 2841.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: David, I wish we had more time.
  zh: 大卫，真希望我们有更多时间。
- start: 2841.538
  end: 2843.959
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We’ve got this last segment to go.
  zh: 我们还有最后一个环节。
- start: 2843.959
  end: 2850.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: We’d love to have you back so we can dig in more into this book and perhaps other books that you have.
  zh: 我们很希望你能再来，这样我们可以更深入地探讨这本书，也许还有你的其他著作。
- start: 2850.842
  end: 2860.725
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: But as far as today goes, is there anything else that you want to share on anything that I was saying there about authority at the end of the last break—how important that is?
  zh: 但就今天而言，关于我在上一段休息结束时谈到的权威问题——它有多重要，你还有什么想分享的吗？
- start: 2860.725
  end: 2873.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Also, maybe share something of the story around how this book, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, came to be and what you’ve noticed in terms of the fruits that have come from this book?
  zh: 另外，也许可以分享一下这本《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》是如何写成的，以及你注意到这本书带来了什么样的果效？
- start: 2875.38
  end: 2879.781
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, that’s a lot of different questions, Jim.
  zh: 好吧，这是很多不同的问题，吉姆。
- start: 2880.182
  end: 2881.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’ll give it a shot.
  zh: 我试着回答一下。
- start: 2883.743
  end: 2886.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Authority was an issue for me.
  zh: 权威对我来说确实是个问题。
- start: 2886.264
  end: 2893.366
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, it was an important issue, but it wasn’t... And everybody has their own specific, really important issue.
  zh: 我是说，这是个重要问题，但它不是...而且每个人都有自己特别重要的问题。
- start: 2894.466
  end: 2901.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A friend of mine that I knew from Trinity Seminary came into the Church about three months after we did.
  zh: 我在三一神学院认识的一个朋友在我们进入教会大约三个月后也加入了教会。
- start: 2901.645
  end: 2904.546
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: After we came in, we talked a lot, and he ended up coming into it.
  zh: 在我们加入后，我们经常交谈，最后他也加入了。
- start: 2904.546
  end: 2907.247
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For him, authority was really the biggest issue.
  zh: 对他来说，权威确实是最大的问题。
- start: 2907.767
  end: 2913.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For me, authority was huge, especially as it related to sola scriptura.
  zh: 对我来说，权威是个很大的问题，特别是关于唯独圣经的问题。
- start: 2913.93
  end: 2916.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But for me, the biggest issue was the Eucharist.
  zh: 但对我来说，最大的问题是圣体圣事。
- start: 2916.851
  end: 2928.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When I realized that the Church was right about the Eucharist, then all I needed to do with everything else, Jim, was find out that they weren't wrong.
  zh: 当我意识到教会在圣体圣事上是对的之后，吉姆，我需要做的就是确认他们在其他方面不是错的。
- start: 2929.85
  end: 2939.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I assumed that if they were right about the Eucharist and they weren't wrong about everything else, then I was wrong.
  zh: 我认为如果他们在圣体圣事上是对的，而且在其他方面也不是错的，那么就是我错了。
- start: 2940.073
  end: 2953.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I went about trying to prove that the authority of the Church and all the other issues besides the Eucharist—which I had already decided on—somehow there was a mistake somewhere in there.
  zh: 所以我试图证明教会的权威和除了圣体圣事之外的所有其他问题——这点我已经确定了——在某些地方一定有错误。
- start: 2953.338
  end: 2956.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That somewhere the Catholic Church had been wrong.
  zh: 在某些地方公教会一定是错的。
- start: 2956.656
  end: 2963.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They were wrong about their authority; they were wrong about apostolic succession; they were wrong about Mary.
  zh: 他们在权威上是错的；他们在使徒传承上是错的；他们在关于马利亚的问题上是错的。
- start: 2963.402
  end: 2967.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I went through every one of the issues to try to see where they were wrong.
  zh: 我检视了每一个问题，试图找出他们哪里错了。
- start: 2968.908
  end: 2972.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'And Jim, you know the answer: I couldn''t find anything that they were wrong about.'
  zh: 而且吉姆，你知道答案：我找不到他们有任何错误。
- start: 2972.671
  end: 2983.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Everything was a better way to explain what I knew already was true, and it made sense when I stopped to think about that.
  zh: 每一件事都是更好地解释了我已经知道是真实的事情，当我停下来思考时，这一切都说得通。
- start: 2983.754
  end: 2987.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Of course, Jesus would not just give us a book.
  zh: 当然，耶稣不会只给我们一本书。
- start: 2987.037
  end: 2991.98
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He didn't give us the book, but He wouldn't just give us a book and say, Here, do the best you can.
  zh: 他没有给我们这本书，他也不会只给我们一本书然后说，给你们，尽你们所能去做吧。
- start: 2993.782
  end: 2999.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What happens when you have just the book, the Bible, and everybody does the best they can?
  zh: 当你只有这本书，圣经，而每个人都尽其所能去理解时，会发生什么？
- start: 2999.507
  end: 3005.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You end up with thousands of different denominations, like Protestantism is in right now.
  zh: 你最终会得到数千个不同的教派，就像现在的新教一样。
- start: 3005.419
  end: 3015.504
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You have to have a unifying authority that tells you, Yes, this is not exactly what that verse means; it means this, or This is what we believe about this.
  zh: 你必须有一个统一的权威来告诉你，是的，这节经文的意思不是这样；而是这样，或者这是我们对此的信仰。
- start: 3017.885
  end: 3019.926
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I worked through all those different kinds of things.
  zh: 我思考了所有这些不同的事情。
- start: 3019.926
  end: 3024.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, with the authority of the Church, I realized that there were different levels of authority.
  zh: 例如，关于教会的权威，我意识到有不同层次的权威。
- start: 3024.168
  end: 3032.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Notice we've been given the deposit, which was stuff that had actually happened—the truth that the apostles were given from the very mouth of Jesus.
  zh: 注意我们得到了信仰宝库，这是实际发生过的事情——使徒们直接从耶稣口中得到的真理。
- start: 3032.81
  end: 3041.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then there was the dogma that the Church had established throughout the years with councils and all the Church documents that this stuff is really true.
  zh: 然后是教会多年来通过大公会议和所有教会文献确立的教义，这些都是真实的。
- start: 3041.114
  end: 3042.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Those two things never change.
  zh: 这两样东西永远不会改变。
- start: 3043.816
  end: 3046.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But then there were some things that do change.
  zh: 但也有一些事情是会改变的。
- start: 3046.297
  end: 3051.939
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, devotions like the Rosary can change.
  zh: 例如，像玫瑰经这样的敬礼可以改变。
- start: 3053.36
  end: 3055.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's changed in our lifetime, right, Jim?
  zh: 在我们的有生之年它就改变过，对吧，吉姆？
- start: 3055.041
  end: 3063.065
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, Pope John Paul II, what was it, about 20 years ago, said, Hey, we're going to add some more mysteries to this.
  zh: 我是说，教宗若望保禄二世，大约20年前，说，嘿，我们要在这里加入更多的奥迹。
- start: 3064.019
  end: 3070.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was interesting because by then I was Catholic, and I had no problem with the fact that he had the authority.
  zh: 有趣的是那时我已经是公教徒了，我对他有这个权威完全没有问题。
- start: 3070.641
  end: 3073.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was a devotion; you didn't even have to say the Rosary.
  zh: 这是一种敬礼；你甚至不是必须要念玫瑰经。
- start: 3076.762
  end: 3082.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the authority just really, really made a whole lot of sense to me.
  zh: 所以这种权威对我来说真的非常有道理。
- start: 3082.003
  end: 3086.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As far as the book itself, I didn't really, Jim, set out to write a book.
  zh: 至于这本书本身，吉姆，我其实并不是一开始就打算写书的。
- start: 3086.384
  end: 3088.985
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I wrote it for two primary reasons.
  zh: 我写这本书主要有两个原因。
- start: 3088.985
  end: 3101.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The biggest reason was I wanted to explain to my dad why his son had done this totally unacceptable thing, as far as he was concerned.
  zh: 最主要的原因是我想向我父亲解释为什么他的儿子做了这件在他看来完全不可接受的事。
- start: 3101.615
  end: 3108.639
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It would have been better if I’d left the Church altogether or left Christianity altogether.
  zh: 在他看来，如果我完全离开教会或完全离开基督教反而更好。
- start: 3110.42
  end: 3120.568
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I tried to explain that to him, and I also wanted to tell my kids in the future so that they would know, but mainly my dad.
  zh: 所以我试图向他解释，我也想让我的孩子们将来知道这些，但主要是为了我父亲。
- start: 3120.768
  end: 3127.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I brought it to my spiritual director, the priest that had helped me come into the Church, whom I was seeing about once every two weeks.
  zh: 我把它拿给我的灵修导师看，就是那位帮助我进入教会的神父，我大约每两周见他一次。
- start: 3128.353
  end: 3141.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I said, Father Peter, I'm just a new Catholic, and I'm trying to explain the Catholic faith to my father, and I'm wondering, would you be willing to just proofread this real quick and tell me if I'm really off on any of this stuff?
  zh: 我说，彼得神父，我只是个新公教徒，我在试图向我父亲解释公教信仰，我在想，您愿意快速看一下这个，告诉我有没有什么地方说得很离谱吗？
- start: 3141.483
  end: 3142.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He said, Sure.
  zh: 他说，当然可以。
- start: 3142.103
  end: 3155.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So about two weeks later, he said, Dave, everything says fine, but we've got to get this published because I think this will help other people besides just your dad.
  zh: 大约两周后，他说，戴夫，一切都说得很好，但我们必须把这个出版，因为我认为这不仅能帮助你父亲，还能帮助其他人。
- start: 3157.488
  end: 3160.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I thought, Okay, well, I'm going to have to change it.
  zh: 所以我想，好吧，我得改一改。
- start: 3160.048
  end: 3168.81
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, some of it was very personal, so I put it into more of something that would be acceptable for anybody to pick up off the shelf and read.
  zh: 我是说，有些内容很私人，所以我把它改成更适合任何人拿起来阅读的形式。
- start: 3169.29
  end: 3174.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And Jim, I had no idea the graces that were going to flow from that decision.
  zh: 吉姆，我完全没想到那个决定会带来这么多恩典。
- start: 3178.357
  end: 3186.299
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I can hardly go into a parish where somebody doesn't come up to me and say, Oh, you're Dave Curry?
  zh: 我几乎去不了一个堂区不遇到有人来对我说，哦，你是戴夫·柯里？
- start: 3186.299
  end: 3195.18
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh, I read your book 15 years ago or 10 years ago or last year, and I'm here because of that.
  zh: 哦，我在15年前或10年前或去年读了你的书，我就是因为这个才在这里。
- start: 3197.081
  end: 3208.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We moved from Chicago, where we’d been my whole life, out here to Iowa about four years ago because half of our kids moved out here to Iowa.
  zh: 我们从芝加哥搬到这里爱荷华州大约四年了，我在芝加哥住了一辈子，因为我们一半的孩子搬到了爱荷华州。
- start: 3208.245
  end: 3212.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we thought, Well, I retired and moved out to Iowa.
  zh: 所以我们想，好吧，我退休了就搬到爱荷华州。
- start: 3214.669
  end: 3227.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was incredible because at the church, I've had at least four or five families come up to me and say, Oh, I was wondering—they told me Dave Curry had come to the church in the parish, and I just was wondering who you are.
  zh: 令人难以置信的是，在教堂里，至少有四五个家庭来找我说，哦，我一直在想——他们告诉我戴夫·柯里来到了这个堂区的教堂，我就在想你是谁。
- start: 3228.737
  end: 3229.898
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s such a blessing; it’s a grace.
  zh: 这是如此大的祝福，这是恩典。
- start: 3229.898
  end: 3233.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s not something I ever deserved; it’s not something I can take credit for.
  zh: 这不是我应得的；这不是我可以邀功的事。
- start: 3233.58
  end: 3236.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God has used the book phenomenally.
  zh: 神奇妙地使用了这本书。
- start: 3236.849
  end: 3244.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I've had two deacons out here in our diocese that have said, Hey, I just wanted to let you know I came back to the Church, and I'm a deacon now.
  zh: 在我们教区有两位执事说，嘿，我只是想让你知道我回到了教会，现在我是执事了。
- start: 3246.275
  end: 3253.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So God has used it to bring people not just into the Church but back into the Church, like with you.
  zh: 所以神用它不仅带领人进入教会，还带领人回到教会，就像你一样。
- start: 3253.839
  end: 3258.442
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And it’s not the only thing doing it, but God’s grace has been really, really wonderful.
  zh: 这不是唯一在起作用的事物，但神的恩典真的非常奇妙。
- start: 3258.442
  end: 3262.52
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I never really expected that.
  zh: 我从未真正期待过这些。
- start: 3262.52
  end: 3267.845
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The publisher tells me about a quarter of a million people have read the book, so I'm sort of surprised about that.
  zh: 出版商告诉我大约有二十五万人读过这本书，这让我有点惊讶。
- start: 3267.845
  end: 3270.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I just try to stay out of the way, Jim.
  zh: 但我只是试着不妨碍，吉姆。
- start: 3270.928
  end: 3273.21
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I just try to stay out of the way and let the Holy Spirit work.
  zh: 我只是试着不妨碍，让圣灵工作。
- start: 3273.21
  end: 3275.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: That's a good strategy!
  zh: 这是个好策略！
- start: 3275.593
  end: 3280.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yeah, David Curry is with us again, author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 是的，大卫·柯里再次和我们在一起，他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。
- start: 3280.397
  end: 3287.411
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Check out the book for yourself if you haven't already; you will greatly appreciate the fact that you did.
  zh: 如果你还没有读过这本书，一定要读一读；你会非常感激你这样做了。
- start: 3287.411
  end: 3293.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: And again, it's something to share—a great resource to share with others as well.
  zh: 再说一次，这是值得分享的东西——也是可以与他人分享的很好的资源。
- start: 3293.536
  end: 3298.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Hopefully, we can all get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit do what He wants to do.
  zh: 希望我们都能不妨碍，让圣灵做他想做的事。
- start: 3298.86
  end: 3303.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: David, in the final minutes here, is there anything else that you want to share with us today?
  zh: 大卫，在最后几分钟，你还有什么想和我们分享的吗？
- start: 3303.144
  end: 3309.749
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Any other books, any other work, any other resources that you’d want to share with folks before we go?
  zh: 在我们结束之前，你还有什么其他的书籍、工作或资源想和大家分享吗？
- start: 3310.834
  end: 3313.856
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, I’m sort of semi-retired, Jim.
  zh: 嗯，我算是半退休了，吉姆。
- start: 3313.856
  end: 3321.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I used to go out and speak and do stuff like that, but I don’t do a whole lot of that just because I’m getting a little old, to be honest with you.
  zh: 我以前常常出去演讲做这类事情，但老实说，因为年纪大了，我现在不怎么做这些了。
- start: 3321.741
  end: 3324.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I’m working on my fifth book.
  zh: 但我正在写第五本书。
- start: 3324.283
  end: 3326.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You asked me what the other four were.
  zh: 你问我其他四本是什么。
- start: 3326.665
  end: 3336.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The first one that we talked about—when I got done with that book, a lot of people asked me, Hey, could you tell us more about this whole tribulation premillennial stuff?
  zh: 我们谈到的第一本书——当我写完那本书后，很多人问我，嘿，你能告诉我们更多关于大灾难和前千禧年的事吗？
- start: 3336.351
  end: 3343.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t understand what the Church teaches; I don’t understand why Protestants are so angry at us for what the Church teaches.
  zh: 我不明白教会教导什么；我不明白为什么新教徒对教会的教导这么生气。
- start: 3343.799
  end: 3347.581
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'So I wrote this book right here, Rapture: The End Times Error.'
  zh: 所以我写了这本书，《被提：末世的谬误》。
- start: 3349.704
  end: 3352.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A lot of people have told me, Hey, this really made sense.
  zh: 很多人告诉我说，嘿，这真的说得通。
- start: 3352.947
  end: 3363.155
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The first time I went out and spoke about this book, believe it or not, we did an all-day Saturday seven-hour seminar on the end times.
  zh: 第一次我出去讲这本书时，信不信由你，我们做了一个周六全天七小时的末世研讨会。
- start: 3364.557
  end: 3369.441
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What I try to do is deal with the end times, and a lady at the end of it came up to me and said, Where's the confessional?
  zh: 我试图解释末世的问题，一位女士在最后走过来对我说，告解室在哪里？
- start: 3369.441
  end: 3373.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I've been gone from the Church for 20 years over this issue; I need to come back.
  zh: 我因为这个问题离开教会20年了；我需要回来。
- start: 3373.668
  end: 3379.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I praise God for the kind of grace that He bestows on us.
  zh: 所以我赞美神赐给我们这样的恩典。
- start: 3379.657
  end: 3380.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We don't deserve it.
  zh: 我们不配得到这些。
- start: 3382.085
  end: 3393.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yeah, and that’s the best fruit of all—humble repentance, turning back to our Lord Jesus and His Catholic Church.
  zh: 是的，这是最好的果效——谦卑悔改，回转归向我们的主耶稣和他的公教会。
- start: 3394.391
  end: 3397.353
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: This is what He died to give us in the fullness.
  zh: 这是他受死要给我们的圆满。
- start: 3397.353
  end: 3404.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: He is drawing all of us to come to Him in the Catholic Church, especially in the Holy Eucharist.
  zh: 他在吸引我们所有人在公教会中来到他面前，特别是在圣体圣事中。
- start: 3404.657
  end: 3411.02
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Yes, read John chapter 6; read about it in David's book, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
  zh: 是的，读约翰福音第六章；在大卫的书《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》中读到这些。
- start: 3411.281
  end: 3413.582
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Dave Curry, what a blessing to have you with us today.
  zh: 戴夫·柯里，今天有你和我们在一起真是一个祝福。
- start: 3413.582
  end: 3415.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: Thank you so much for being with us.
  zh: 非常感谢你和我们在一起。
- start: 3416.204
  end: 3417.405
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, thank you for having me, Jim.
  zh: 嗯，谢谢你邀请我，吉姆。
- start: 3417.405
  end: 3418.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: I really enjoyed it.
  zh: 我真的很享受。
- start: 3418.985
  end: 3419.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_11
  en: All right, God bless you all!
  zh: 好的，愿神保佑你们所有人！
