大卫·柯里是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》这部经典著作的作者，今天他将在《简 单真理》节目中分享他从基要主义新教背景皈依公教会的感人故事，以及更多内容。 David Curry, author of the classic work Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, will share his powerful conversion story from a fundamentalist Protestant background to the Catholic faith and much more today on The Simple Truth.
这是《简单真理》的见证星期二环节，我们为您带来关于 耶稣和他的公教会赐予生命的真实性的第一手见证故事。 It is Testimony Tuesday on The Simple Truth, where we bring you real-life, first-hand testimonial accounts of the life-giving reality of Jesus and His Catholic Church.
我们通过圣母玛利亚的无玷圣心和圣约瑟纯洁、 坚强、贞洁的心，将一切奉献给耶稣的圣心。 We consecrate everything to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the pure, strong, chaste heart of St. Joseph.
再次介绍，我们今天的嘉宾是大卫·柯里。 Again, our guest today is David Curry.
他是一位公教会的丈夫、父亲、祖父，也是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。 He's a Catholic husband, father, grandfather, and also the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
这就是让我认识他的那本书，在将近25年前，它对我回归公教会信仰的旅程帮助很大。 That's the book I know him by; it was very helpful to my journey back to the Catholic faith almost 25 years ago now.
他还写过其他一些书。 But he's the author of some other books as well.
在节目进行过程中他会和我们分享一些他的好作品，但我们想从开始讲起。 He's going to share some of his good work with us as we go, but we want to start in the beginning.
但首先，让我们欢迎他的到来。 But first, we want to welcome him in.
大卫·柯里，欢迎来到《简单真理》。 David Curry, welcome to The Simple Truth.
感谢您今天做客。 Thank you for being with us today.
您好吗？ How are you?
我很好，吉姆，谢谢你邀请我。 I'm doing very well, thank you for having me, Jim.
能交谈总是很好。 It's always good to talk.
是啊，太好了！ Yeah, excellent!
很荣幸有您做客，我们总是从开始讲起见证。 It's a great blessing to have you with us, and we always begin the testimonies with the beginning.
我们从童年开始。 We start with childhood.
您的早年生活是怎样的？您的家庭，您成长的文化环境是怎样的？ What was your early life like, your family, the culture that you grew up in?
好的，也许我可以从一个童年故事开始讲起。 Okay, well, maybe I can start with a story about my childhood.
这是我童年最深刻的记忆之一，我的书也是从这个故事 开始的，因为它能让人对整个故事有个全面的认识。 It's one of my most vivid memories as a child, and I start the book with the same story because it sort of puts everything into perspective.
我是个传道人的孩子，有三个姐妹，生活在一个充满爱的家庭里。 I think I was a PK; I was a preacher's kid, and I had three sisters and a very loving family.
但我最深刻的记忆之一是在六年级的时候。 But one of my most vivid memories was when I was in 6th grade.
那时我正在操场上。 I was on the playground in 6th grade.
当时我们像六年级的男孩一样在玩耍，他们提前把我们叫了进来，告诉我们总统被枪击了。 Messing around like 6th grade boys do, they called us in a little early and told us that the president had been shot.
当时他们还没有详细情况，但这个消息让整个下午都笼罩在阴影之中。 At that time, they didn't have any details, but it sort of put a darkness over the whole afternoon.
当然，我们说的是肯尼迪总统。 And of course, we're talking about President Kennedy.
吉姆，信不信由你，我已经老到能记得那时候的事了。 I'm old enough to remember that, believe it or not, Jim.
那天他们提前让学校放学，告诉我们说，我们希望你们回家。 After they actually ended up dismissing school a little bit early that day, they told us, We want you to go home.
从种种迹象看来，我们的总统已经遇刺身亡了，他已经离开了我们。 From all appearances, it appears that our president has been successfully assassinated; he's no longer with us.
我记得走回家的路，我们住在离学校大约一英里 的地方，那时候没有校车，你只能步行上学。 I remember walking home; we lived about a mile from school, and back then there weren't buses, you just walked to school.
在我走回家的路上，大颗的眼泪顺着脸颊流下来，因为作为一个基要主义的六 年级学生，我毫不怀疑约翰·肯尼迪已经没有希望了——他一定在地狱里。 As I was walking home, big tears were dripping down my cheek because, as a fundamentalist sixth grader, there was no doubt in my mind that there was no hope for John F. Kennedy—that he was in hell.
我就是这么认定的。 I just knew it.
我知道，作为一个公教徒，他在试图靠行为上天堂 ，或者说我以为我知道他在试图靠行为上天堂。 I knew, as a Catholic, he was trying to work his way, or I thought that I knew he was trying to work his way to heaven.
他不接受因信称义，单靠信心得救，这是我生命中的一个转折点，因为那时充满 了悲伤，太多的悲伤，我们的总统离世了，而且他在永恒中已经没有希望了。 He didn't accept sola fide, salvation by faith alone, and that was a pivotal moment in my life because it was just so much sorrow, so much sorrow that our president was gone and that there was no hope for him for all eternity.
但这就是我所受的神学教育。 But that's the kind of theology I was raised in.
我在一个基要主义传道人的家庭中长大。 I was raised in a fundamentalist preacher's kid's home.
我们很有爱心，我们爱人。 We were very loving; we loved people.
但有些事情是绝对不能妥协的。 But there were some things that were just non-negotiable.
我们相信因信称义，人单靠信心得救。 We believed in sola fide; you are saved by faith alone.
我们以为我们知道公教徒是靠行为上天堂的，因为他们谈 论行为，所以我们觉得很明显他们不可能相信因信称义。 We thought we knew that Catholics worked their way to heaven because they talked about works, so obviously we felt that it was pretty obvious they couldn't believe in sola fide.
我们也相信圣经是我们唯一的权威——唯独圣经。 We also believed that Scripture was our only authority—sola scriptura.
如果我们需要知道什么才能上天堂，那一定会在圣经里，我们不需要担心任何世俗权威。 If we needed to know something to get to heaven, it would be in Scripture, and we did not need to worry about any earthly authority.
现在回想起来觉得有点好笑，因为每个传道人——吉姆，如果你在基要主义或任何新教 圈子里待过，你就知道实际上传道人才是权威，因为是他打开圣经，是他教导圣经。 Which is sort of funny when I look back on it because every preacher—and if you spent some time, Jim, in fundamentalist or any kind of Protestant circles, you know that really the preacher is the authority, you know, because he opens Scripture and he teaches Scripture.
但他给我们的是他对圣经的理解。 But it's his perspective on Scripture that he gives us.
但我们坚信圣经是唯一的权威。 But we believed very strongly that Scripture was the only authority.
当时我们还有其他一些信仰，其中有些让我远离公教会。 Now, there were other things that we believed as well, some of which kept me away from Catholicism.
我们相信童贞女生子和替代性救赎。 We believed in the virgin birth, the substitutionary atonement.
耶稣基督的真实死亡、埋葬和三天后复活——在那个时候，这 些都受到许多自由派新教徒甚至一些自由派公教徒的质疑。 The true death, burial, and resurrection three days later of Jesus Christ—that was a time back then when that was questioned by a lot of liberal Protestants and even a few liberal Catholics.
但让我几十年远离公教会的其中一个原因是关于末世的整个观念。 But one of the things that kept me from the Catholic Church for decades was the whole idea of the future times.
这个世界将如何终结？ How is this world going to wrap up?
我们非常确信在我们前面还有一个秘密的被提，大多数人都不知道这件事将要发生。 We were quite convinced that there was still ahead of us a secret rapture that most people didn't know was coming.
人们会在一瞬间被提到天堂，而其他人则会陷入七年可怕的大 灾难时期，在此期间以色列会再次成为神救赎计划的焦点。 People would be taken at the split second, in a moment, to heaven, while other people would be plunged into a seven-year horrible time called the Great Tribulation, during which Israel would come to the forefront again of God's plan for salvation.
在那七年结束时，会有一场大战，耶稣会第二次降临。 At the end of that seven years, there would be this massive war, and Jesus would come back the second time.
我们称之为第二次，但实际上，如果算上被提，这其实是第三次了。 We called it the second time, but actually, if you count the rapture, it's really like the third time.
然后我们会进入千禧年——换句话说，就是天国在地上的一千年统治。 Then we would go into a thousand-year millennium—in other words, one thousand years of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
所以我们拒绝公教会所说的神的国度在基督第一次 降临时就已建立的说法，这让我远离了公教会。 So we rejected the Catholic claim that the Kingdom of God was already established at Christ's first advent, and that kept me away from Catholicism.
我们对公教徒都很友好，非常友好，但我没有公教徒朋友。 We were all friendly with Catholics; we were very friendly with Catholics, but I had no Catholic friends.
我在学校当然认识公教徒，我上的是公立学校。 I knew Catholics at school, obviously; I went to public school.
但我们非常非常注重分别为圣，我们保持着距离。 But we were very, very separatist; we kept ourselves.
如果我们和公教徒谈论宗教，通常是在试图让他们明白公教会有多么错误。 If we were talking to a Catholic about religion, we were usually trying to get them to understand how Catholicism was wrong.
另一个让我长期远离公教会的重要原因——吉姆， 这一点一点也不会让你感到惊讶——就是马利亚。 The other big thing that kept me away from Catholicism for a long time—and Jim, this is not going to surprise you at all—is Mary.
马利亚，马利亚，总是有争议。 Mary, Mary, quite contrary.
我们一直对公教徒关于这方面的观点有异议，但对我来说特 别的是，教会关于马利亚的教导似乎与圣经的教导相冲突。 We always had problems with Catholics' views on that, but particularly for me, it seemed to me that the Church's teaching on Mary conflicted with what the Bible taught.
当你说圣经是唯一权威时，如果教会在某些方面 与圣经有分歧，那就意味着教会一定是错的。 When you say that the Bible is your only authority, and then if the Church is disagreeing with the Bible on something, it seems like that means the Church has to be wrong.
具体来说，是关于——这看似是个小问题，但对 我来说却是个大问题——耶稣有没有兄弟姐妹？ Specifically, it was about—it's such a minor issue, but it was a huge issue to me—did Jesus have any brothers and sisters?
换句话说，马利亚在耶稣之后有没有其他孩子？ In other words, did Mary have other children after Jesus?
这两个问题必须先得到解决，我才能认真考虑公教会。 Those two things had to fall into place before I could even really look seriously at Catholicism.
这些是我最早的记忆。 So that's my youngest memories.
我有一些相当奇怪的记忆，你可能会看着我说，戴夫，你真的是这么想的吗？ I have some rather weird ones that you probably would look at me and say, Dave, did you really think that?
我记得有一次我回到家，我妈妈不在家，我的姐妹们也都不在家。 I remember one time I came home, and my mom wasn't home, and none of my sisters were home.
要记住，我们相信耶稣随时可能带着秘密被提回来。 And remember, we believed that at any moment, Jesus could come back with the secret rapture.
如果你没有和那些被秘密提走的人一起走，你就会被留下来经历七年可怕的时期。 If you didn't go with the people that were in the secret rapture, you were going to be left behind for seven horrible years.
那时我大概在三四年级，在那几分钟里，当我找不到我的妈 妈和姐妹们时，我确信他们已经被提走了，而我被留下了。 Well, I was probably in about third or fourth grade at that time, and I became convinced in those minutes, while I was looking for my mom and my sisters, who were nowhere to be found at home, that they had been taken and I had been left.
我想，这七年我该怎么办？ I thought, What am I going to do for seven years?
那一刻我感到的恐惧是难以置信的。 The fear that I had at that moment was incredible.
但最后我发现他们都去邻居家了，那天我放学回家时，他们正在那里愉快地喝着下午茶。 But I found eventually that they'd all gone over to the neighbor's house and were having a nice, friendly cup of coffee in the afternoon when I got home from school that day.
我只是不知道他们的安排。 I just didn't know what the agenda was.
由于我的信念，我觉得我真的不想成为除了我父 亲那样的基要主义传道人之外的任何其他角色。 As a result of my convictions, I felt like I really didn't want to ever be anything other than what my dad was, which was a fundamentalist preacher.
所以我去了圣经学校，然后去了基督教大学，之 后又去了三一神学院，进入了全职基督教事工。 So I went to Bible school, then I went to Christian college, then I went to Trinity Seminary, and entered full-time Christian service.
大约就在那时，我开始对我所学的体系产生质疑。 It was about that time that I started having problems with the system that I was taught.
我的问题是我发现了一些在新教中说不通的经文。 My problem was I was finding verses that didn't make sense in Protestantism.
我记得最清楚的是我第一次注意到的：歌罗西书第一章第20节 ，那里说：「既然藉着他在十字架上所流的血成就了和平，便藉 着他叫万有，无论是地上的、天上的，都与自己和好了。」 The one I remember most vividly is the first one I remember: Colossians chapter 1, verse 20, where Paul talks about the fact that he adds his suffering to the suffering of Christ for the salvation of the world.
这不是新教的观念，你知道我们不能在基督的苦难上再添加任何东西。 That's not a Protestant idea; you know we can't add anything to the sufferings of Christ.
那时我才六年级——不，不，我那时要大一点。 So I was only about sixth grade at that—no, no, I was a little older.
我那时大概是八年级，我问了我父亲这个问题。 I was probably about eighth grade at that time, and I asked my dad about it.
我能看出他没有一个很好的答案，因为他没有直接回答这个问题。 I could tell he didn't have a real good answer because he wouldn't answer the question.
他说：「嗯，达拉斯神学院的院长约翰·沃尔沃德博士这个星期天要来吃晚饭。」 He said, Well, Dr. John Walvoord, who is president of Dallas Seminary, is going to be over for dinner this Sunday.
「你为什么不问问沃尔沃德博士这个问题呢？」 Why don't you ask that question to Dr. Walvoord?
所以我想：「好的，是的，沃尔沃德博士一定会有一个好答案。」 So I thought, Okay, yeah, Dr. Walvoord will have a good answer to that.
达拉斯神学院、慕迪圣经学院、惠顿学院——这些都是我们有联系的学校。 Dallas Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, Wheaton College—those were sort of the schools that we associated with.
所以我问了沃尔沃德博士，最后他看着我说：「 戴夫，有些事情我们不能把它作为神学基础。」 So I asked Dr. Walvoord, and at the end of that, he looked at me and said, Dave, there are some things that we can't base our theology on.
吉姆，听起来我们该休息一下了，所以我可以把这个故事留到之后再讲。 It sounds like maybe we're going into a break here, Jim, so I can place this story on the other end of the page.
好的，好的，我们在这里暂停。 Yeah, yeah, we'll pause there.
是的，大卫·柯里分享了很棒的内容。 But yeah, great stuff here with David Curry.
他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者，如果 你还没有这本书，我真的想鼓励你至少买一本。 And he is the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, and I do want to encourage you to get at least one copy of the book if you don't have it.
这是一本非常精彩的书，大卫在第一章就讲述了他的故事，详细 地展开了很多内容，然后一一列举，消除了所有关于公教会教导 的误解和他以前不了解的方面，以及他是如何认识这些真理的。 It's just an incredible read, and David does go into his story really in the first chapter of the book, laying out quite a bit of it there, and then really just going down the list, knocking down all of the misconceptions and areas of things he just didn't know about with regard to Catholic teaching, and then how he came to know them.
这是一本很好的书，能帮助我们更好更深入地了解这些真理，也能更好地传递这些真理。 It's a great book to come to know these truths better and stronger ourselves and also to hand them on better.
我们马上回来继续节目，请继续收听。 We're going to be right back with more, so stay tuned.
解救祷文：全能的神和圣父，我们恳求你，藉着总领天使圣弥额尔、圣拉 法厄尔和圣加俾额尔的转祷和帮助，解救我们被邪恶者奴役的弟兄姐妹。 Prayer of Deliverance: Almighty God and Father, we beg Thee, through the intercession and help of the archangels St. Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel, for the deliverance of our brothers and sisters who are enslaved by the evil one.
从焦虑、悲伤和执念中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。 From anxiety, sadness, and obsession, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
从仇恨、淫乱和嫉妒中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。 From hatred, fornication, and envy, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
从妒忌、愤怒和死亡的念头中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。 From thoughts of jealousy, rage, and death, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
从一切自杀和堕胎的念头中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。 From every thought of suicide and abortion, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
从一切罪恶的性行为中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。 From every form of sinful sexuality, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
从家庭中的一切分裂和一切有害的友谊中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。 From every division in our family and every harmful friendship, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
从一切咒语、恶意、巫术和各种邪术中，我们恳求你，神啊，求你拯救我们。 From every sort of spell, malice, witchcraft, and every form of the occult, we implore Thee, deliver us, O Lord.
你曾说：「我留下平安给你们，我将我的平安赐给你们」，求你藉着童贞圣马利亚的 转祷，使我们从一切魔鬼的影响中得到释放，常享你的平安，因我们的主基督之名。 Thou who said, Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you, grant that through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, we may be liberated from every demonic influence and enjoy Thy peace always, in the name of Christ our Lord.
阿们。 Amen.
你知道，我可能在圣诞节的时候去过教堂，但渐渐地我就不去了。 I might have gone to church, you know, at Christmas time, but gradually I quit going.
这里并不像我想象的那么可怕，这是一个更温暖更开放的地方，神真的是关于爱的。 It's not as scary as I thought it was; it's a much more warm and open place, and God really is about love.
这不是关于规则和我童年记忆中的那些事情。 It's not about the rules and the things that I remember as a child.
这真的是关于神对我们每个人那深厚而美妙的爱。 It really is about the love that God has for each one of us that’s so deep and wonderful.
如果你因为任何原因离开了公教会，请访问CatholicComeHome.org。 If you’ve been away from the Catholic Church for any reason, visit CatholicComeHome.org.
我们网络制作的节目播客可以在TheStati onoftheCross.com免费收听。 Podcasts of our network-produced shows are free for your listening pleasure at TheStationoftheCross.com
也可以在安卓和苹果移动设备上通过我们免费的 iCatholic Radio应用收听。 and on our free iCatholic Radio app for Android and Apple mobile devices.
在信仰中得到提升，并受到启发去传播耶稣基督的福音。 Be uplifted in your faith and inspired to spread the good news of Jesus Christ.
今天就在TheStationoftheCross.com收听吧。 Listen today at TheStationoftheCross.com
或在我们的iCatholic Radio移动应用上收听。 or on our iCatholic Radio mobile app.
欢迎回到《简单真理》。 Welcome back to The Simple Truth.
我是吉姆·哈文斯，今天我们特邀嘉宾是大卫·柯里。 Jim Havens here with our special guest today, David Curry.
他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。 He is the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
我强烈推荐这本书。 I highly recommend this book.
大卫，你刚才在给我们讲一个故事，我想回到那个故事，但首先，我想请你跟听众解释一下 ，因为可能有人对新教内部的各种派别不太了解，作为一个基要主义者到底意味着什么？ David, you were sharing a story with us, and I want to get back to that story, but first, I’m wondering if you can just share with the audience, in case there’s anybody out there that just isn’t very sure or doesn’t know much about the various divisions within Protestantism, what exactly does it mean to be a fundamentalist?
这在整个新教背景下处于什么位置？ Where does this land in context with Protestantism overall?
这是个很好的问题，吉姆。 That’s a very good question, Jim.
首先，我们不认为自己是新教徒。 First of all, we did not consider ourselves Protestants.
我们认为新教徒是在16世纪离开公教会的——路德和其他新教徒。 Protestants, we believed, had left the Catholic Church in the 1500s—Luther and the other Protestants.
我们认为自己是从基督创教以来就存在的真正基督徒， 从未加入过公教会；可以说，是公教会离开了我们。 We considered ourselves the true Christians that had been since Christ's beginning and never joined the Catholic Church; that the Catholic Church left us, so to speak.
这是新教徒的一个独特之处。 That’s sort of a unique thing about Protestants.
他们谈论着一条一直延伸到教会最初始的金线。 They talk about this golden thread that goes all the way back to the very, very beginning of the Church.
吉姆，这话就说在你我之间，别告诉别人，但这完全是胡说八道。 Just between you and me, Jim, don’t tell anybody this, but it’s utter nonsense.
这完全没有任何历史或圣经依据，但那就是我们所相信的。 There is absolutely no historical or biblical evidence for that at all, but that’s what we believed.
在19世纪，新教经历了启蒙运动的影响，他们开始否定一切超自然的事物。 During the 1800s, Protestantism went through the Enlightenment, which started to affect Protestantism, where they began to reject all the supernatural.
他们开始质疑圣经的默示、无误性和绝对正确性。 They started to call into question the biblical inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of Scripture itself.
他们开始质疑耶稣基督的死亡和复活。 They began to call into question the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
他们开始质疑童贞女生子，以及所有这些不同的信仰，实际 上，作为基要主义者，我们和公教会一样都维护这些信仰。 They started to call into question the virgin birth, all of these different beliefs that, actually, as fundamentalists, we protected and shared with Catholics.
我从未想过这一点，但我们其实比自由派新教徒更接近公教会。 I never thought about that, but we were much more akin to Catholics than we were to liberal Protestants.
所以当他们走向那个方向时，基要主义者就更多地成为一个运动。 So when they went that direction, the fundamentalists became more of a movement.
在那之前，他们还不太像一个运动，但这事发生在纽约。 Before that, they weren't as much of a movement, but it happened up in New York.
他们聚在一起提出了信仰的五个基要，这就是「基要主义者」这个词开始用于宗教的由来。 They got together and came up with the five fundamentals of the faith, and that’s where the word fundamentalist started to be applied to religions.
信仰的基要包括童贞女生子、圣经默示、基督的死亡与复活、基督的再来，以及因信称义。 The fundamentals of the faith included the virgin birth, inspiration of Scripture, the death and resurrection of Christ, the second coming of Christ, and salvation by faith alone.
他们列举了这些，这就是我们所信的。 They enumerated those, and that was what we believed.
这是一个非常非常简朴的宗教。 It was a very, very sparse religion.
我们去的教堂里到处都没有十字架，也没有任何图像。 The church we went to had no cross anywhere in the church; there was never an image anywhere.
我们非常反对偶像崇拜，教堂里没有任何人的图像。 We were very iconoclastic; there was no image of anyone in the church.
唯一的特点——这是一座美丽的建筑，一座我父亲担 任牧师的大教堂——就是它有美丽的拱形天花板。 The only thing—and it was a beautiful building, a huge church that my dad was pastor of—was that it had beautiful arched ceilings.
但哪里都没有图像。 But there was not an image anywhere.
在教堂里，当你坐着看向前方时，除了普通的油漆、植物或木板 之外，唯一能看到的就是讲台两侧顶部印着的两节圣经经文。 The only thing in the church, as you sat and looked at the front, that you saw that was not just plain paint or a plant or paneling of wood were two Bible verses that were printed at the very top on each side of the pulpit.
在它们中间有一个洗礼池，但教堂里除此之外什么都没有。 Then there was a baptismal in between them, but there was nothing other than that in the church.
我们唱很多诗歌，我们有一个很好的管风琴，在礼拜中我们主要做的就是听讲道。 We sang a lot; we had a great organ, and the main thing that we did during the service was listen to a sermon.
当我的孩子或孙子抱怨12、13或14分钟的讲道时，我 会暗自发笑，因为我们通常要听45到50分钟的讲道。 I would chuckle to myself when my kids or my grandkids complain about a 12, 13, or 14-minute homily because we usually had 45 to 50-minute sermons.
是的，在这45到50分钟里我的思绪有时确实会走神，但我们的礼拜就是这样的。 Yeah, my mind did tend to wander sometimes in 45 to 50 minutes, but that’s what our worship was like.
我们周日去教堂三次，周三一次，然后周五还有青 年团契，所以这基本上占据了你的社交时间表。 We went to church three times on Sunday, once on Wednesday, and then we had youth group on Friday, so it pretty much capitalized your social calendar.
这就是为什么我成长过程中几乎没有非基要主义者的朋友，因为我们都忙于教会的活动。 That’s why I really didn’t have many non-fundamentalist friends growing up, because we were so involved in what we were doing at church.
都是好人。 Good people.
我很感激我的家人和教会给我传授的对神的认识和爱，以及对圣经的认识。 I’m thankful for the knowledge and the love of God that was imparted to me by my family and by my church, the knowledge of Scripture.
我对此非常非常感激。 I’m very, very thankful for that.
我最后得出的结论是，他们在一些很基本的问题上是错的。 What I came to the conclusion was that they were just wrong on some very basic issues.
吉姆，这算是回答了你的问题吗，还是你想让我说得更详细些？ Does that sort of answer your question, Jim, or do you want me to go into more of that?
不用了，已经很充分了。 No, very much so.
是的，这确实是一个基础——因为你真的愿意去探索。 And yeah, really, it's a foundation that—because you were really willing.
我的感觉是，当我读你书中的故事，读完整本书，对整体有了认识，甚至现在你开 始和我们分享你的故事时，你有一种特质——我想我会称之为谦逊，你会说，嘿， 如果我看到什么地方不协调，我就不会简单地忽视它然后继续前进把它忘掉。 My sense is, when I read your story in the book and then read through the book and just the overall sense of things, and even as you begin to share your story with us here, there was a certain—I would call it, I guess, a humility about you to say, Hey, if I'm seeing something here that doesn't go together, then I'm not going to just ignore it and move on and forget about it.
我要试着更深入地研究它。 I'm going to try to look deeper into it.
我想，这引导你走上了一条路，使你能够开放地接受神为你倾注的更大的真理和恩典。 And that led you down the road that allowed you to be open to receive greater truth and greater graces, I think, that God was pouring out for you.
我想这确实是每个人都能从中学到的一课，对吧？ I think this is really something that is a lesson for every person, right?
如果我们能有一个基本的谦卑态度，那么主就能按照他的旨意在真理和恩典上建立我们。 If we can have a fundamental disposition of humility, then the Lord is going to be able to really build us up in truth and grace as He wants to.
但这种基本的谦卑态度是关键。 But that fundamental disposition of humility is key.
所以我认为你在休息前分享的故事就是一个很好的例子。 And so the story that you were sharing right before the break is really, I think, a good example of that.
你说你是传道人的孩子，你也在成为传道人的路上，但你看到你有这种唯独圣经的信念— —只有圣经，单靠圣经——然而你遇到了一些与你所理解的基要主义教导不符的经文。 So you were saying you were a preacher's kid, you were in that pipeline to become a preacher yourself, but you see how you have this belief in sola scriptura—Scripture alone, the Bible alone—and yet you're coming across Scripture passages that don't line up with the fundamentalist teachings that you had come to understand.
所以这里有些东西对不上；你开始提出问题。 So there's something that doesn't go together here; you're asking questions.
最后，我记得你说有一位慕迪圣经学院的重要人物来吃晚饭。 Eventually, you have a big guy over from Moody Bible College, I think you said, at dinner.
是的，继续讲那个故事吧。 Yeah, continue on with that story.
告诉我们后来发生了什么。 Tell us what happened next.
是的，在休息时间，我刚查了那节经文，这样我可以准确地读给你听，以免有任何混淆。 Yeah, during the break, I just looked up the verse so I can read the verse to you exactly so that there's no confusion.
是歌罗西书第一章24节，保罗说：现在我为你们受苦，倒觉欢乐，并 且为基督的身体，就是为教会，要在我肉身上补满基督患难的缺欠。 It's Colossians chapter 1, verse 24, and it says, Paul is speaking: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, the Church.
我就是想不通这怎么可能符合我所信的任何东西。 I just couldn't figure out how that could possibly fit into anything that I believed.
我不明白这怎么可能。 I didn't understand how it could be.
不仅基要主义者会对此有困扰，所有新教徒都会对此有困扰。 Not only would fundamentalists have trouble with that, but all Protestants would have trouble with that.
所以是的，是沃尔沃德博士。 So yes, it was Dr. Walvoord.
他实际上是德克萨斯州达拉斯神学院的院长，但与 慕迪圣经学院很相似，神学观点也是完全一致的。 He was actually the president of Dallas Seminary down in Dallas, Texas, but very much like Moody Bible Institute, and the theology would be hand in glove.
我问了他那个问题，他转向我——在这里我只是个试图理解这节经文的八年级 学生——他说，戴夫，你永远不要把你的神学建立在一个不清楚的经文上。 I asked him that question, and he turned to me—here I am, about an eighth grader trying to struggle through this verse—and he said, Dave, you don't ever want to base your theology on an unclear verse.
这就是一节不清楚的经文吗？ And this is an unclear verse?
好吧，我那时是八年级学生，他是神学院院长，但我知道那节经文并不含糊。 Well, I was in eighth grade, and he was the president of a seminary, but I knew that verse wasn't unclear.
问题不是经文不清楚，问题是我不同意这节经文，这是完全不同的问题。 The problem wasn't that the verse was unclear; the problem was I didn't agree with the verse, and that's a totally different issue.
所以我没说什么，但我把那节经文记在心里，还有很多其 他经文——包括我在高中时发现的撒迦利亚书中的一节。 So I didn't say anything, but I put that verse into the back of my head, along with lots of verses—a verse in Zechariah that I found when I was in high school.
到处都有这样的经文，我去神学院部分原因就是想把所有这些经文理清楚并串起来。 There are verses all over the place, and I went to seminary partly to get all those verses sorted out and put together.
当我到了三一神学院时，我相信这是世界上最大的福音派新教神学院 ——至少在我在那里的时候是——他们有来自不同神学背景的人。 What I found when I got to seminary, Trinity Seminary, is I believe the largest evangelical Protestant seminary in the world—it was at least at the time that I was there—and they have people from all different theological backgrounds.
他们都是新教徒，但我找不到任何教授能回答那些让我困扰的经文。 They're all Protestant, but I couldn't find any professors that could answer any of the verses that were giving me problems.
所以这是个问题，吉姆。 So that was a problem, Jim.
我不知道该如何处理，但我进入了基督教事工，我在基督教 事工没有待很长时间——几年后——我决定，你知道吗？ I didn't know how to handle that, but I went into Christian service, and I wasn't in Christian service for a real long time—a few years—when I decided, You know what?
我必须弄明白这个。 I’ve got to figure this out.
我必须自己弄明白这个。 I’ve got to figure this out for myself.
这就是开启了我走向公教会的整个旅程。 And that’s what sort of started the whole journey down Catholicism.
我在研究圣经，我仍然活跃在教会中，但我不是全职事奉。 I was studying the Bible; I was still active in the church, but I wasn't in full-time service.
我是浸信会教堂的一名执事，而且我在浸信会教堂有最好的差事。 I was a deacon at a Baptist church, and I had the best gig that you can have in a Baptist church.
我是成人主日学的老师。 I was the adult Sunday school teacher.
现在，你跟任何参与新教教会的人说说，这是最好的差事。 Now, you talk to anybody that’s involved in any Protestant church; that’s the best gig.
这比牧师的差事还好，因为你可以准备一个一小时的深入查经，讲任 何你想讲的内容，而且来听的人都是真心想来的，还是讨论的形式。 It’s a better gig than the pastor because you get to prepare one really intensive one-hour-long Bible study on whatever you decide to talk about, and you have people that are there that really want to be there, and it’s a discussion format.
我很喜欢这个。 I loved it.
我教了一段时间，我记得当时我们快讲完路加福音还是什么。 I had been teaching it for a while, and we were coming to the end, I believe, of the Gospel of Luke or something.
我不太记得具体是什么了，但我说，你们下周想学什么？ I don’t remember exactly what it was, but I said, What do you guys want to study next week?
通常有50到60个成年人，都带着圣经准备学习，他们决定要学但以理书。 There were usually about 50 to 60 adults, all with their Bibles geared up to study, and they decided that they wanted to study the Book of Daniel.
我不想教但以理书，因为但以理书里有很多我还没弄明白的经 文让我感到困扰，而且我认为但以理书完全不符合新教教义。 Well, I didn’t want to teach the Book of Daniel because Daniel had a lot of the verses that I was having trouble with that I hadn’t been able to figure out, and I didn’t think that Daniel agreed at all with Protestantism.
但我被否决了，吉姆，在那个主日学课程开始后大约一年半的时间里，我被接 纳进了罗马公教会，因为我说，好吧，如果我要教这个，我就必须非常仔细地 研究，因为我不能站在那里说，'好吧，伙计们，我不理解这节经文。' But I got overruled, and Jim, it was within about a year and a half of that Sunday school class that I was being accepted into the Roman Catholic Church because I said, Okay, if I’m going to teach this, I’m going to have to study this really closely because I can’t go up and say, 'Well, I don’t understand this verse, guys.'
当我开始以前所未有的方式深入研究它时——吉姆，这其中也有很多恩典。 And as I started to study it in depth in a way that I’d never studied before—and Jim, a lot of this is grace too.
我想把这一点说得很清楚。 I want to make that real clear.
我不知道为什么突然间我在研究这些经文时，它们开始以不同的方式对我产生意义。 I don’t know why all of a sudden I was studying these verses, and they started to make sense to me in a different way.
我只能说是神让我眼睛上的鳞片掉下来了。 The only thing I can say is God just had the scales dropped from my eyes.
我开始看到我以前从未看到的东西。 I just started to see things that I had never seen before.
到那个课程结束时，我意识到我不再是前千禧年派了；我不能接受神的国度 将在未来某个时候来临，而且在那之前我们要经历七年大灾难的整个想法。 I came to the end of that class and realized that I was no longer premillennial; I couldn’t accept the whole idea that the kingdom was going to come in the future sometime and that we were going to go through this seven-year tribulation before we got there.
我不知道这会让我走向何方，但我知道我不能停留在原地。 I didn’t know where that left me, but I knew I couldn’t be there.
看来我们又要休息了。 And it looks like we’ve got another break coming up.
是的，是的。 Yeah, we do.
确实。 We do.
大卫·柯里和我们在一起，他是《生为基要派，重生为公 教徒》的作者，今天和我们分享了他的一些个人见证。 David Curry is with us, author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, sharing some of his personal testimony with us today.
太有力量了！ So powerful!
你可以在那本书的第一章找到这些内容，但今天我 们通过与他的现场对话了解到了一些特别的细节。 Again, you can find it in chapter 1 of that book, but we’re getting some special little aspects of it here with him live with us today.
非常蒙福。 Very blessed.
是的，大卫指出了这里所涉及的恩典，而且再次说明了对恩典的回应就是接受它 并参与其中的功课——不是拒绝它，不是因为你不想看到它、不想面对它可能意 味着什么而逃避——而是说愿意，并参与其中，靠着神的恩典迈出下一步。 And yeah, David points out there the grace that is involved here, and yet again, the lesson of the response to that grace being one of receiving it and participating with it—not rejecting it, not running away from it because you don’t want to see it, you don’t want to deal with what it might mean—but to say yes and to participate and to take that next step with God’s grace.
我们回来后会谈论那下一步。 We’re going to talk about that next step when we get back.
请继续收听。 Stay tuned.
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玛利亚姆修女是一位公教会修女，她的使命是将耶稣和希望的信息带给迷失方向的世界。 Mother Miriam is a Catholic nun on a mission to bring Jesus and a message of hope to a world that has lost its way.
亲爱的朋友们，你们好，我是玛利亚姆修女，我很高兴欢迎你们收看玛利亚姆修女直播。 Hello, beloved, this is Mother Miriam, and I am thrilled to welcome you to Mother Miriam Live.
像往常一样，你可以通过电话、短信或电子邮件提出任何问题。 As always, you’re going to be able to call, text, or email whatever your questions are.
通过十字架电台和生命网站新闻的合作，你可以在十字架电台的YouTube 和Facebook上收听和观看玛利亚姆修女直播，包括播客上的往期节目。 Through a partnership between The Station of the Cross and LifeSite News, you will be able to listen and watch Mother Miriam Live on YouTube and Facebook at The Station of the Cross, including past episodes on podcasts.
愿神保佑你！ God bless you!
你可以通过当地的十字架电台分台和我们免费的iCatholi c Radio移动应用收听，或者在Facebook和You Tube上搜索十字架电台观看玛利亚姆修女的直播视频流。 Listen on your local Station of the Cross affiliate and our free iCatholic Radio mobile app, or watch the Mother Miriam Live video stream on Facebook and YouTube by searching The Station of the Cross.
这就是玛利亚姆修女直播，每个工作日东部时间上午10点到11点在十字架电台播出。 That’s Mother Miriam Live, each weekday from 10 to 11 AM Eastern on The Station of the Cross.
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十字架电台感谢那些使我们能够播放公教节目超过20年的支持者们。 The Station of the Cross thanks our supporters who have enabled us to broadcast Catholic programs for more than 20 years.
通过你们的慷慨，我们能够用福音信息启发无数听 众，帮助引导他们到堂区接受圣事的灵性滋养。 Through your generosity, we are able to inspire countless listeners with the Gospel message and help lead them to a parish to be spiritually nourished by the sacraments.
感谢你们持续的支持，愿神保佑你们和你们的家人。 Thank you for your continued support, and may God bless you and your family.
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永远不要错过你最喜欢的节目的任何一分钟！ Never miss another minute of your favorite show!
下载iCatholic Radio应用，这样你就可以在世界任何地方全天候收听。 Download the iCatholic Radio app so you can listen anywhere in the world, 24 hours a day.
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访问TheStationoftheCross.com Visit TheStationoftheCross.com
获取更多信息。 for more information.
欢迎回到《简单真理》。 Welcome back to The Simple Truth.
我是吉姆·哈文斯，今天我们的嘉宾是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者大卫·柯里。 Jim Havens here with our guest today, David Curry, author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
再次推荐这本书，《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》。 Get the book again, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
你会很高兴拥有这本对持续培育和持续皈依很有帮助的优秀资源。 You will be very glad that you got this great resource for ongoing formation and ongoing conversion.
我们总是希望在传递信仰的能力上越来越好，特 别是对我们周围的许多孩子、孙子或任何人。 We always want to be getting better and better at our ability to transmit the faith, especially to many children, grandchildren, or anybody in our midst.
所以这本书是一个很大的祝福，大卫在《生为基要 派，重生为公教徒》中为我们详细阐述了这一切。 So we have a great blessing here in this book, the way that David lays it all out for us in Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
但是大卫，请再多跟我们分享一些关于你是如何走向公教信仰的细节。 But David, share with us a little bit more in terms of just connecting the dots to that coming into the Catholic faith.
所以你开始发现事情对不上；你开始深入研究。 So you start to see that things aren't lining up; you start to take a deeper look.
从那里开始，你有什么想分享的来把这些点连接起来吗？ Is there anything that you want to share that connects the dots from there?
我记得在书中读到过这些；我最近又重读了一遍。 I remember reading this in the book; I recently read it again not long ago.
当你意识到公教会是唯一真实的教会，我必须成为公教徒时，会遇到困难 ，而且事实上，由于你来自基要主义背景，现在你面临着不同的冲突。 There’s the difficulty of, once you do come to realize, Well, the Catholic Church is the one true Church; I've got to become Catholic, and the fact that coming from a fundamentalist background, now you’ve got a different conflict going on.
即使你看到了真理，要采取实际行动也并不容易。 It’s not so easy, even when you see the truth of it, to actually take that action.
关于家人、朋友，一切事情都会变得非常麻烦。 There’s a lot that is very troublesome about that with respect to family, friends, everything.
所以你有什么想分享的来帮我们理解这一点吗？ So is there anything that you want to share to get us to that point?
然后我真的很想听听你是如何处理的，以及你是如 何真正跨过那个门槛的，即使面对那么多障碍。 And then I definitely want to hear more about how you handled that and how you were able really to get over that threshold, even with all the many obstacles.
当然，当然！ Sure, sure!
是的，我想我决定必须成为公教徒的那一刻，是在我仔细研究了 约翰福音第六章之后。那是在逾越节前一年，在耶稣受死之前。 Yeah, I’d say probably the moment at which I decided I had to be Catholic was after I did a careful study of John chapter 6. It was exactly a year before the Passover, before Jesus died.
我们都知道那些经文，就是耶稣说，你们必须吃我的身体；你们必须吃我的肉。 We all know those verses, you know, where Jesus says, You have to feed on my body; you have to eat my body.
他因此失去了各种门徒，然后他转向其他十二个门徒说，你们也要走吗？ He lost all kinds of disciples over that, and He turned to the other disciples, the twelve, and said, Are you going to leave too?
他们说——他们的意思大概是，好吧，我们也想走，但是我们不知道该去哪里。 And they said—sort of what they said is, Well, we would, except we don’t know where we’d go.
他们大概是这个意思。 That’s sort of what they said.
所以我意识到我不是唯一对此有困扰的人。 So I realized that I wasn’t the only person having problems with this.
但我研究了施洗约翰，我意识到，你知道吗？ But I studied John the Baptist, and I realized, You know what?
公教会在他们教导的其他教义上可能对也可能错，但他们在圣体圣事上是对的。 The Catholic Church is probably right or wrong about every other doctrine that they teach, but they’re right about the Eucharist.
这是我第一次对公教会神学说，不，他们在这一点上是对的。 That was the first part of Catholic theology that I said, No, they’re right about this.
他们在圣体圣事上绝对是对的。 They are absolutely right about the Eucharist.
我告诉人们如果只有一节经文让我成为公教徒，那就是约翰福 音6章51节：你们必须吃我的身体，这身体就是我的肉。 I tell people if there was just one verse that made me become a Catholic, it was John 6, verse 51: You have to eat my body, and that body is my flesh.
你知道，他说得如此清楚——太清楚了！ You know, He’s so clear—so clear!
我在神学院学过希腊文却还是错过了这点。 I studied in Greek in seminary and missed it.
你知道，这就是为什么我说，吉姆，必须有鳞片从你眼睛上掉下来。 You know, that’s why I say, Jim, there are scales that have to come off of you.
我们必须为人们祈祷，因为只有神的恩典才能真正让那些鳞片掉下来。 We have to pray for people because God’s grace is the only one that really gets us to have those scales fall off.
我开始阅读早期教父的著作。 I started to read the early Church Fathers.
我开始阅读教宗若望保禄二世的著作，并开始进行比较。 I started to read Pope John Paul II, and I started to compare that.
我开始从公教会的角度阅读教会历史——这是我从未做过的事。 I started to read Church history from a Catholic perspective—things which I had never done.
我在神学院上过教父学课程，但回想起来，那只是从教父著作中摘取的一些片段。 I took a patristics class in seminary, but looking back, it was just little snippets that they took out of the patristics.
我开始阅读教父学著作；我开始阅读教父们的著作，我意识到他们在所有事情上都是对的。 I started to read the patristics; I started to read the Church Fathers, and what I came to realize is that they were right on everything.
他们在绝对一切事情上都是对的。 They were right on absolutely everything.
这就是我在书中所写的，因为这些问题一个接一个被解决了，我意识到我必须成为公教徒。 And that’s what I cover in the book because they fell one by one by one, and I realized I have to become Catholic.
我记得有一天醒来，那是个星期六。 I remember I woke up one day; it was a Saturday.
因为不用上班，我转向也刚醒来的妻子，说：科琳，我真的相信——我真的相信这是真的。 Because they didn't have to go to work, I turned to my wife, who was just waking up also, and I said, Colleen, I really believe—I really believe it's true.
这是我第一次真正知道我相信圣体圣事就是公教会所说的那样。 It was the first time I really knew that I knew that I believed that the Eucharist was what the Catholic Church said.
我甚至不需要告诉她我在说圣体圣事，因为我们已经谈论过很多事情 ，但她知道我在说圣体圣事——我相信在公教会里，如果我加入教会 ，耶稣基督的身体、血、灵魂和天主性就真实临在并可以领受。 I didn't even need to tell her I was talking about the Eucharist because we had talked so much about things, but she knew I was talking about the Eucharist—that I believed that at that Catholic Church, the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ was present and available if I just joined the Church.
现在，我们一直与公教徒达成共识的一点是，我们在浸信会教堂里没有这个。 Now, one thing we always agreed with Catholics about is that we didn't have that at the Baptist Church.
换句话说，公教会神父会说，不，你们在浸信会教堂没有基督的身体， 我们会同意说，你说得对，我们没有，因为我们认为那只是一个象征。 In other words, the Catholic priest would say, No, you don't have the body of Christ at the Baptist Church, and we would agree, You're right, we don't, because we thought it was only a symbol.
我的妻子，愿主保佑她，早些时候告诉我说：戴夫，如果我想嫁 给一个公教徒，我就会和公教徒约会，但我没有和公教徒约会。 My wife, bless her heart, had told me earlier, Dave, if I had wanted to be married to a Catholic, I would have dated Catholics, and I didn't date Catholics.
所以你知道，她自己也在经历这些问题的挣扎。 So she was struggling, you know, herself through all these issues.
但愿主保佑她，那天在床上，她说：你知道，戴夫，如果你 真的有这种感觉，你需要去找街区那边的公教会神父谈谈。 But bless her heart, that day in bed, she said, You know, Dave, if you really feel that way, you need to go to the Catholic priest down the block and talk to him.
我说，是的，我想我该这么做。 I said, Yeah, I guess I do.
所以我预约了时间去见特里神父。 So I made an appointment and went down to talk to Father Terry.
他告诉我说：戴夫，我觉得你不应该这样做。 He told me, Dave, I don't think you should do this.
我觉得这会太难了。 I think it's going to be too hard.
我说，是的，这会很难。 I said, Yeah, it's going to be hard.
我知道这会很难。 I know it's going to be hard.
我可能会因此被家人断绝关系，事实上最后确实如此；我父亲因此与我断绝了关系。 I may get disowned over this, which I did end up being; my dad disowned me over it.
但我说，是的，我知道这会很难，但如果这是真理，我想这样做。 But I said, Yeah, I know it's going to be hard, but if it's the truth, I want to do that.
他说，嗯，不，我不是觉得太难。 He said, Well, no, I don't think it's too hard.
别这样做。 Don't do it.
我回去后，吉姆，那时比我整个旅程中的任何时候都更沮丧，因为我在试图追随真理， 然后我发现我甚至还不是公教徒，但我对公教信仰的相信却比街区的堂区神父还要深。 I went back, and I was more discouraged, Jim, at that point than at any other time in my journey because I was trying to follow the truth, and then I just found out that I wasn't even Catholic, but I believed in the Catholic faith more than the parish priest on the block.
所以我不知道该怎么办，这时神带领两位律师进入我的生活，他们是非常坚定、稳重、有见 识的公教徒，他们让我认识了一位神父，彼得神父，他后来成为了我三十年的灵修导师。 So I didn't know exactly what to do, and God brought into my life two lawyers who were very, very firm, solid, knowledgeable Catholics, and they put me in contact with a priest, Father Peter, who has ended up being my spiritual director for 30 years.
这是我第一次有人告诉我：戴夫，发生在你身上的是恩典。 For the first time, I had people tell me, Dave, what's happening to you is grace.
这是神的恩典，这就是发生在你身上的事。 This is the grace of God; that's what's happening to you.
拥抱它，跟随它，去做吧！ Embrace it, follow it, do it!
我知道没有我妻子我做不到。 Well, I knew I couldn't do it without my wife.
我做不到，真的做不到。我太软弱了。 I couldn't; I just couldn't. I'm too weak.
所以我开始让她读一些书。 So I started getting her to read books.
对她来说最有意义的书是汤姆·霍华德的《福音派是不够的》。 The book that made the most sense to her was Tom Howard's Evangelical Is Not Enough.
在汤姆去世前，我曾告诉他说他把我的妻子还给了 我，因为她说，是的，这对我来说现在说得通了。 I told Tom before he died once that he gave me my wife back because she said, Yeah, this makes sense to me now.
所以我们和孩子们一起学习，花了大约六个月时间让全家人在这个决定上达成一致。 So we studied with the kids, and it took about six months to get the whole family together about this decision.
我们全家在同一天进入了教会。 We all came into the Church on the same day.
那时我们有六个孩子，最大的在八年级，所以他是自己做的决定。 We had six kids at that time; my oldest was in eighth grade, so he was making his own decision.
我的六年级孩子也是自己做的决定。 My sixth grader was making his own decision.
在我们成为公教徒后又有了两个孩子。 We had two more kids after we became Catholic.
吉姆，我可以告诉你：这是我做过的最好的决定。 And Jim, I can tell you this much: it is the best decision I have ever made.
进入教会是我做过的最好的决定。 The best decision I've ever made was to come into the Church.
我说这话时意识到这不仅仅是我的决定；有大量的恩典倾注 在我、我的妻子和孩子们身上，使我们能够一起进入教会。 I say that realizing that it wasn't just my decision; there was this tremendous amount of grace that was poured out on me, my wife, and my kids so that we all could come in together.
这个教会是多么美好的地方啊，可以在这里抚养孩子，一起走天路朝圣。 But what a wonderful place this Church is to raise kids and to just travel in our pilgrimage to heaven.
我妻子唯一的条件是：好的，戴夫，如果我们要成为公教徒，她说，我觉得你是对的。 The only stipulation my wife said was, Okay, Dave, if we're going to be Catholic, she goes, I think you're right.
我觉得加入公教会是我们该做的。 I think the Catholic Church is what we need to do.
我觉得这是真实的。 I think it is true.
我们不会做新教徒；我们也不会到处挑选我们喜欢的公教堂区。 We're not going to be Protestants; we're not going to shop around for a Catholic parish we like.
如果我们要成为公教徒，我们就要做真正的公教徒，这意味着我们要去街区那边的堂区。 If we're going to be Catholics, we're going to be Catholics, and that means we're going to go to the parish down the block.
我说，但特里神父在那里；他告诉我我不能加入。 I said, But that's where Father Terry is; he told me I couldn't come in.
她说，好吧，你需要去和他谈谈。 She said, Well, you need to go talk to him.
你需要说服他让你加入。 You need to convince him that he needs to let you come in.
所以我去了，我们进行了一次长谈。 So I did, and we had a long conversation.
我们谈了几个小时，最后他说，戴夫，这些年来我们堂区都没有新人加入。 We talked for hours, and at the end of that, he said, Dave, we haven't had anybody come into this parish in years.
我心里想，是的，我知道为什么会这样，特里神父。 I thought to myself, Yeah, I know why that is, Father Terry.
但他说，所以我们没有成人入教课程，但你在接受灵修指导。 But he said, So we don't really have an RCIA program, but you're under spiritual direction.
我每周都和彼得神父见面，他说，当彼得神父认为你准备好了，我们就接纳你进入教会。 I was meeting with Father Peter like every week, and he said, When Father Peter thinks you're ready to come in, we'll accept you into the Church.
所以我们一起加入了——我的六个孩子、我的妻子和我。我们都一起进入了教会。 So we all came in together—my six kids, my wife, and I. We all came into the Church together.
我的孩子们不久之后就受了洗，我和我的儿子一起领受了坚振圣事。 My kids were baptized shortly thereafter, and I was confirmed with my son.
我最大的儿子，八年级的，正好要领受坚振圣事，所以我和我的妻子——我在 孩童或青少年时期已经受过洗——有了一个蒙福的、美好的进入教会的经历。 My oldest, eighth-grade son, was due for confirmation, so my wife and I—and I'd already been baptized as a child or as a teenager—had a blessed, wonderful experience coming into this Church.
真是一个蒙福的、美好的经历。 Just a blessed, wonderful experience.
这很难吗？ Was it hard?
哦是的，真的很难。 Oh yeah, it was really hard.
我们失去了所有的朋友；我的家人与我断绝了关系。 We lost all of our friends; we were disowned by my family.
最终与家人的关系有所改善，但这个过程很艰难。 Everything eventually got better with family, but it was hard.
但是，吉姆，每一分痛苦都是值得的。 And it was, Jim, it was worth every minute of the pain.
因为我们跟随圣经中的真理，神大大地祝福了我们。 God has blessed us so much because we followed the truth that’s in the Bible.
因为你猜怎么着？ Because guess what?
这是一本公教会的书！ It is a Catholic book!
我不断发现，其中有些部分我无法让它与新教教义协调一致。 As I kept finding, there were parts in it that I couldn't get to agree with Protestantism.
这是一本公教会的书，但教会远不止这本书。 It's a Catholic book, but there's so much more to the Church than just this book.
神给了我们解释圣经的权威；他给了我们圣事。 God gave us an authority to interpret the books of the Bible; He gave us the sacraments.
我曾经认真地尝试过有圣事和没有圣事的基督徒生活， 吉姆，我告诉你，我认为没有圣事几乎是不可能的。 I've tried to live this Christian faith seriously, with and without the sacraments, and Jim, I'll tell you, I think it's virtually impossible without the sacraments.
有了圣事，虽然真的很难，但并非不可能。 With the sacraments, it's really, really hard, but it's not impossible.
你知道，偶尔我会有这样的一周，我会说，是的，我觉得这周我真 的过着应该过的生活，但下周我又得去告解了，因为我做不到。但 是没有圣事，甚至尝试过基督徒的生活都是难以置信的困难。 You know, every once in a while, I have a week where I go, Yeah, I actually think I lived the way I'm supposed to this week, and then the next week I have to go to confession again because I didn't. But without the sacraments, it's just incredibly difficult to even try to live the Christian life.
我们在公教会里有这么多恩赐。 We have so many gifts in the Catholic Church.
我所有的孩子都是实践信仰的公教徒；所有的孙辈都受了洗。 All my kids are practicing Catholics; all my grandkids are baptized.
神对我们家庭非常非常仁慈。 God has been very, very gracious to our family.
不是说我们没有经历过艰难时期。 Not that we haven't gone through hard times.
我有一个孩子在十年级时回家告诉我他是无神论者，那些年很艰难。 I had one of my kids come home in 10th grade and tell me he was an atheist, and that was some tough years.
我在他身上发现了同样的事情；他回到了教会。 I found the same thing with him; he's back in the Church.
我在他身上发现了和我自己心中一样的事情，那就是祈祷，吉姆，是祈祷带来了改变。 I found the same thing with him that I found with my own heart, and that is prayer, Jim, is what makes the difference.
我有时整夜为他祈祷。 I just prayed for him sometimes all night.
我在这里有点哽咽，抱歉。 I choked up a little bit here, but sorry.
我意识到神想要应允那个祷告，比我想要他应允的愿望还要强烈。 I realized God wanted to answer that prayer more than I wanted Him to answer that prayer.
神要我进入公教会的意愿，比我想要进入教会的意愿还要强烈。 God wanted me to come into the Catholic Church more than I wanted to come into the Church.
相信我，我真的很想进入公教会，但神比我更想让我这样做。 And believe me, I really wanted to come into the Catholic Church, but God wanted me to do it more than I did.
我只需要有那样的信心，安息在他所能赐予的恩典中。 I just needed to have that faith and rest in the grace that He can bestow.
吉姆，这是一种很好的生活方式。 It's a great way to live, Jim.
还有什么我没有提到的吗？ Anything else I didn't cover?
没有了，太精彩了！ No, it's amazing!
是的，我是说，当你在最后提到圣事生活和权威教导，训导权的教 导，权威解释圣经的能力时——顺便说一下，正是公教会在早期世 纪权威地编纂了圣经，决定哪些书卷应该收录，哪些不应该收录。 Yeah, I mean, when you mentioned at the end, you know, the sacramental life and the authoritative teachings, the magisterial teachings, the ability to authoritatively interpret the Scriptures—which, by the way, were authoritatively put together by the Catholic Church to say which books are in and which books are out back in the early centuries.
所以是的，这是一本公教会的书。 So yes, this is a Catholic book.
所以，是的，权威——对我来说，这是最重要的事。 And so, yet authority—to me, that was the big thing.
我的故事是生为公教徒，重生为公教徒，中间有一段迷失的时期。 My story would be born Catholic, born again Catholic, and it was being lost.
然后在回归的路上，我意识到，好的，耶稣是真实的，但是他 在哪里？这么多地方都声称是教会，而这才是真实的教会。 Then on my way to coming back, I realized, Okay, Jesus is real, but then, Where is He? There are all these different places claiming to be churches, and this is the real Church.
所以即使我生来就是公教徒，我想，好吧，也许我只是生来如此。 So even though I was born Catholic, I thought, Well, maybe I was just born that way.
让我们弄清楚真相是什么——他在哪里？当我开始思考这个问题并深入 研究时，我遇到了你的书，你在书中关于权威的论述让我大开眼界。 Let’s figure out what really is—where is He? As I started to think about that question and dig into that some, your book is one that I came across, and what you write there about authority was eye-opening to me.
对我来说，这是一切的关键所在。 This, to me, was what everything hinged on for me.
只有一个教会拥有权威；只有一个教会有使徒传 承，在读到你的书之前我想我从未听说过这个。 There’s only one Church that has authority; there’s only one Church that has apostolic succession, which I don’t think I had ever heard of until I read about it in your book.
意识到这一点是非常重要的真理。 That’s a pretty vital truth to be aware of.
所以一旦我开始学习这些东西——再次感谢你写了这本书——我意识到，好 的，不，我不是仅仅生来就是公教徒；这是唯一真实的教会，我需要回归。 So once I started learning these things—and again, thank you for writing this book—I realized, Okay, no, I wasn’t just born Catholic; this is the one true Church, and I need to go back.
我们马上回来。 We’re going to be right back.
请继续收听。 Stay tuned.
如果生活的忧虑和焦虑让你感到沉重，请来圣托马斯·莫尔祈祷之家，让主更新你的灵魂。 If the cares and anxieties of life are weighing you down, come to the St. Thomas More House of Prayer and allow the Lord to refresh your soul.
圣托马斯·莫尔祈祷之家是一个致力于祈祷和推广时辰祈祷的公教会退省中心。 The St. Thomas More House of Prayer is a Catholic retreat center devoted to praying and promoting the Liturgy of the Hours.
无论是个人还是团体退省，你都能在这里找到适合深度祈祷的宁静氛围。 You’ll find a tranquil atmosphere that’s ideal for deep prayer, whether as an individual or for a group retreat.
我们位于宾夕法尼亚州克兰贝里希尔城路365号。 We’re located at 365 Hill City Road in Cranberry, Pennsylvania.
今天就预约或在LiturgyoftheHours.org了解更多信息。 Make your reservation today or learn more at LiturgyoftheHours.org.
你也可以拨打814-676-1910联系我们。重复一遍：814-67 6-1910。我们很乐意帮助你体验时辰祈祷，发现能改变你生命的祈祷。 You can also call us at 814-676-1910. That’s 814-676-1910. We would love to help you experience the Liturgy of the Hours and discover the prayer that will change your life.
iCatholic Radio移动应用是二合一 应用——你可以在这里收听优质的公教节目和音乐。 The iCatholic Radio mobile app is two apps in one—your place to hear great Catholic programs and music.
这是听众对更新后的iCatholic Radio移动应用的评价： 通过iCatholic Radio应用，我多次收听了讲道和教导。 Here’s what listeners are saying about the updated iCatholic Radio mobile app: Through the iCatholic Radio app, I have listened to the sermons and teachings several times.
这让我对信仰和公教传统有了更深的理解。 The effect has been a deeper understanding of my faith and Catholic tradition.
这个应用确实在我的生活中带来了祝福，增强了我的信仰。 This app has truly been a blessing in my life and has increased my faith.
通过这个新应用，你可以随时收听我们的节目，如玛利亚姆修女直 播或天主教时事，你也可以切换到公教艺术家的最佳当代音乐。 With the new app, you can choose to listen to our programs like Mother Miriam Live or The Catholic Current whenever you like, but you can also switch over to the best in contemporary music by Catholic artists.
我们甚至每个星期天早上都为你带来数小时的额我略圣咏。 We even bring you hours of Gregorian chant every Sunday morning.
如果你目前还没有我们的应用，可以通过苹果商店下载到iPhone， 或在谷歌商店搜索iCatholic Radio下载到安卓手机。 If you do not currently have our app, download it to your iPhone through the Apple Store or to your Android phone by going to Google Play and searching iCatholic Radio.
更新后的iCatholic Radio移动应 用——你获取优质公教节目和音乐的一站式平台。 The updated iCatholic Radio mobile app—your one-stop for great Catholic programs and music.
欢迎回到《简单真理》。 Welcome back to The Simple Truth.
我是吉姆·哈文斯，今天大卫·柯里与我们分享了他的一些个人见证。 Jim Havens here with David Curry, sharing some of his personal testimony with us today.
他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。 He’s the author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
好书！ Great book!
一定要读这本书，也和他人分享。 Get your hands on this book and share it with others as well.
大卫，真希望我们有更多时间。 David, I wish we had more time.
我们还有最后一个环节。 We’ve got this last segment to go.
我们很希望你能再来，这样我们可以更深入地探讨这本书，也许还有你的其他著作。 We’d love to have you back so we can dig in more into this book and perhaps other books that you have.
但就今天而言，关于我在上一段休息结束时谈到的权 威问题——它有多重要，你还有什么想分享的吗？ But as far as today goes, is there anything else that you want to share on anything that I was saying there about authority at the end of the last break—how important that is?
另外，也许可以分享一下这本《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》 是如何写成的，以及你注意到这本书带来了什么样的果效？ Also, maybe share something of the story around how this book, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, came to be and what you’ve noticed in terms of the fruits that have come from this book?
好吧，这是很多不同的问题，吉姆。 Well, that’s a lot of different questions, Jim.
我试着回答一下。 I’ll give it a shot.
权威对我来说确实是个问题。 Authority was an issue for me.
我是说，这是个重要问题，但它不是...而且每个人都有自己特别重要的问题。 I mean, it was an important issue, but it wasn’t... And everybody has their own specific, really important issue.
我在三一神学院认识的一个朋友在我们进入教会大约三个月后也加入了教会。 A friend of mine that I knew from Trinity Seminary came into the Church about three months after we did.
在我们加入后，我们经常交谈，最后他也加入了。 After we came in, we talked a lot, and he ended up coming into it.
对他来说，权威确实是最大的问题。 For him, authority was really the biggest issue.
对我来说，权威是个很大的问题，特别是关于唯独圣经的问题。 For me, authority was huge, especially as it related to sola scriptura.
但对我来说，最大的问题是圣体圣事。 But for me, the biggest issue was the Eucharist.
当我意识到教会在圣体圣事上是对的之后，吉姆， 我需要做的就是确认他们在其他方面不是错的。 When I realized that the Church was right about the Eucharist, then all I needed to do with everything else, Jim, was find out that they weren't wrong.
我认为如果他们在圣体圣事上是对的，而且在其他方面也不是错的，那么就是我错了。 I assumed that if they were right about the Eucharist and they weren't wrong about everything else, then I was wrong.
所以我试图证明教会的权威和除了圣体圣事之外的所有其他 问题——这点我已经确定了——在某些地方一定有错误。 So I went about trying to prove that the authority of the Church and all the other issues besides the Eucharist—which I had already decided on—somehow there was a mistake somewhere in there.
在某些地方公教会一定是错的。 That somewhere the Catholic Church had been wrong.
他们在权威上是错的；他们在使徒传承上是错的；他们在关于马利亚的问题上是错的。 They were wrong about their authority; they were wrong about apostolic succession; they were wrong about Mary.
我检视了每一个问题，试图找出他们哪里错了。 I went through every one of the issues to try to see where they were wrong.
而且吉姆，你知道答案：我找不到他们有任何错误。 And Jim, you know the answer: I couldn't find anything that they were wrong about.
每一件事都是更好地解释了我已经知道是真实的 事情，当我停下来思考时，这一切都说得通。 Everything was a better way to explain what I knew already was true, and it made sense when I stopped to think about that.
当然，耶稣不会只给我们一本书。 Of course, Jesus would not just give us a book.
他没有给我们这本书，他也不会只给我们一本书然后说，给你们，尽你们所能去做吧。 He didn't give us the book, but He wouldn't just give us a book and say, Here, do the best you can.
当你只有这本书，圣经，而每个人都尽其所能去理解时，会发生什么？ What happens when you have just the book, the Bible, and everybody does the best they can?
你最终会得到数千个不同的教派，就像现在的新教一样。 You end up with thousands of different denominations, like Protestantism is in right now.
你必须有一个统一的权威来告诉你，是的，这节经文的 意思不是这样；而是这样，或者这是我们对此的信仰。 You have to have a unifying authority that tells you, Yes, this is not exactly what that verse means; it means this, or This is what we believe about this.
我思考了所有这些不同的事情。 I worked through all those different kinds of things.
例如，关于教会的权威，我意识到有不同层次的权威。 For example, with the authority of the Church, I realized that there were different levels of authority.
注意我们得到了信仰宝库，这是实际发生过的事情——使徒们直接从耶稣口中得到的真理。 Notice we've been given the deposit, which was stuff that had actually happened—the truth that the apostles were given from the very mouth of Jesus.
然后是教会多年来通过大公会议和所有教会文献确立的教义，这些都是真实的。 Then there was the dogma that the Church had established throughout the years with councils and all the Church documents that this stuff is really true.
这两样东西永远不会改变。 Those two things never change.
但也有一些事情是会改变的。 But then there were some things that do change.
例如，像玫瑰经这样的敬礼可以改变。 For example, devotions like the Rosary can change.
在我们的有生之年它就改变过，对吧，吉姆？ It's changed in our lifetime, right, Jim?
我是说，教宗若望保禄二世，大约20年前，说，嘿，我们要在这里加入更多的奥迹。 I mean, Pope John Paul II, what was it, about 20 years ago, said, Hey, we're going to add some more mysteries to this.
有趣的是那时我已经是公教徒了，我对他有这个权威完全没有问题。 It was interesting because by then I was Catholic, and I had no problem with the fact that he had the authority.
这是一种敬礼；你甚至不是必须要念玫瑰经。 It was a devotion; you didn't even have to say the Rosary.
所以这种权威对我来说真的非常有道理。 So the authority just really, really made a whole lot of sense to me.
至于这本书本身，吉姆，我其实并不是一开始就打算写书的。 As far as the book itself, I didn't really, Jim, set out to write a book.
我写这本书主要有两个原因。 I wrote it for two primary reasons.
最主要的原因是我想向我父亲解释为什么他的儿子做了这件在他看来完全不可接受的事。 The biggest reason was I wanted to explain to my dad why his son had done this totally unacceptable thing, as far as he was concerned.
在他看来，如果我完全离开教会或完全离开基督教反而更好。 It would have been better if I’d left the Church altogether or left Christianity altogether.
所以我试图向他解释，我也想让我的孩子们将来知道这些，但主要是为了我父亲。 So I tried to explain that to him, and I also wanted to tell my kids in the future so that they would know, but mainly my dad.
我把它拿给我的灵修导师看，就是那位帮助我进入教会的神父，我大约每两周见他一次。 I brought it to my spiritual director, the priest that had helped me come into the Church, whom I was seeing about once every two weeks.
我说，彼得神父，我只是个新公教徒，我在试图向我父亲解释公教信仰， 我在想，您愿意快速看一下这个，告诉我有没有什么地方说得很离谱吗？ I said, Father Peter, I'm just a new Catholic, and I'm trying to explain the Catholic faith to my father, and I'm wondering, would you be willing to just proofread this real quick and tell me if I'm really off on any of this stuff?
他说，当然可以。 He said, Sure.
大约两周后，他说，戴夫，一切都说得很好，但我们必须把这 个出版，因为我认为这不仅能帮助你父亲，还能帮助其他人。 So about two weeks later, he said, Dave, everything says fine, but we've got to get this published because I think this will help other people besides just your dad.
所以我想，好吧，我得改一改。 So I thought, Okay, well, I'm going to have to change it.
我是说，有些内容很私人，所以我把它改成更适合任何人拿起来阅读的形式。 I mean, some of it was very personal, so I put it into more of something that would be acceptable for anybody to pick up off the shelf and read.
吉姆，我完全没想到那个决定会带来这么多恩典。 And Jim, I had no idea the graces that were going to flow from that decision.
我几乎去不了一个堂区不遇到有人来对我说，哦，你是戴夫·柯里？ I can hardly go into a parish where somebody doesn't come up to me and say, Oh, you're Dave Curry?
哦，我在15年前或10年前或去年读了你的书，我就是因为这个才在这里。 Oh, I read your book 15 years ago or 10 years ago or last year, and I'm here because of that.
我们从芝加哥搬到这里爱荷华州大约四年了，我在芝加 哥住了一辈子，因为我们一半的孩子搬到了爱荷华州。 We moved from Chicago, where we’d been my whole life, out here to Iowa about four years ago because half of our kids moved out here to Iowa.
所以我们想，好吧，我退休了就搬到爱荷华州。 So we thought, Well, I retired and moved out to Iowa.
令人难以置信的是，在教堂里，至少有四五个家庭来找我说，哦，我一直在 想——他们告诉我戴夫·柯里来到了这个堂区的教堂，我就在想你是谁。 It was incredible because at the church, I've had at least four or five families come up to me and say, Oh, I was wondering—they told me Dave Curry had come to the church in the parish, and I just was wondering who you are.
这是如此大的祝福，这是恩典。 It’s such a blessing; it’s a grace.
这不是我应得的；这不是我可以邀功的事。 It’s not something I ever deserved; it’s not something I can take credit for.
神奇妙地使用了这本书。 God has used the book phenomenally.
在我们教区有两位执事说，嘿，我只是想让你知道我回到了教会，现在我是执事了。 I've had two deacons out here in our diocese that have said, Hey, I just wanted to let you know I came back to the Church, and I'm a deacon now.
所以神用它不仅带领人进入教会，还带领人回到教会，就像你一样。 So God has used it to bring people not just into the Church but back into the Church, like with you.
这不是唯一在起作用的事物，但神的恩典真的非常奇妙。 And it’s not the only thing doing it, but God’s grace has been really, really wonderful.
我从未真正期待过这些。 I never really expected that.
出版商告诉我大约有二十五万人读过这本书，这让我有点惊讶。 The publisher tells me about a quarter of a million people have read the book, so I'm sort of surprised about that.
但我只是试着不妨碍，吉姆。 But I just try to stay out of the way, Jim.
我只是试着不妨碍，让圣灵工作。 I just try to stay out of the way and let the Holy Spirit work.
这是个好策略！ That's a good strategy!
是的，大卫·柯里再次和我们在一起，他是《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》的作者。 Yeah, David Curry is with us again, author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
如果你还没有读过这本书，一定要读一读；你会非常感激你这样做了。 Check out the book for yourself if you haven't already; you will greatly appreciate the fact that you did.
再说一次，这是值得分享的东西——也是可以与他人分享的很好的资源。 And again, it's something to share—a great resource to share with others as well.
希望我们都能不妨碍，让圣灵做他想做的事。 Hopefully, we can all get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit do what He wants to do.
大卫，在最后几分钟，你还有什么想和我们分享的吗？ David, in the final minutes here, is there anything else that you want to share with us today?
在我们结束之前，你还有什么其他的书籍、工作或资源想和大家分享吗？ Any other books, any other work, any other resources that you’d want to share with folks before we go?
嗯，我算是半退休了，吉姆。 Well, I’m sort of semi-retired, Jim.
我以前常常出去演讲做这类事情，但老实说，因为年纪大了，我现在不怎么做这些了。 I used to go out and speak and do stuff like that, but I don’t do a whole lot of that just because I’m getting a little old, to be honest with you.
但我正在写第五本书。 But I’m working on my fifth book.
你问我其他四本是什么。 You asked me what the other four were.
我们谈到的第一本书——当我写完那本书后，很多人问我 ，嘿，你能告诉我们更多关于大灾难和前千禧年的事吗？ The first one that we talked about—when I got done with that book, a lot of people asked me, Hey, could you tell us more about this whole tribulation premillennial stuff?
我不明白教会教导什么；我不明白为什么新教徒对教会的教导这么生气。 I don’t understand what the Church teaches; I don’t understand why Protestants are so angry at us for what the Church teaches.
所以我写了这本书，《被提：末世的谬误》。 So I wrote this book right here, Rapture: The End Times Error.
很多人告诉我说，嘿，这真的说得通。 A lot of people have told me, Hey, this really made sense.
第一次我出去讲这本书时，信不信由你，我们做了一个周六全天七小时的末世研讨会。 The first time I went out and spoke about this book, believe it or not, we did an all-day Saturday seven-hour seminar on the end times.
我试图解释末世的问题，一位女士在最后走过来对我说，告解室在哪里？ What I try to do is deal with the end times, and a lady at the end of it came up to me and said, Where's the confessional?
我因为这个问题离开教会20年了；我需要回来。 I've been gone from the Church for 20 years over this issue; I need to come back.
所以我赞美神赐给我们这样的恩典。 So I praise God for the kind of grace that He bestows on us.
我们不配得到这些。 We don't deserve it.
是的，这是最好的果效——谦卑悔改，回转归向我们的主耶稣和他的公教会。 Yeah, and that’s the best fruit of all—humble repentance, turning back to our Lord Jesus and His Catholic Church.
这是他受死要给我们的圆满。 This is what He died to give us in the fullness.
他在吸引我们所有人在公教会中来到他面前，特别是在圣体圣事中。 He is drawing all of us to come to Him in the Catholic Church, especially in the Holy Eucharist.
是的，读约翰福音第六章；在大卫的书《生为基要派，重生为公教徒》中读到这些。 Yes, read John chapter 6; read about it in David's book, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.
戴夫·柯里，今天有你和我们在一起真是一个祝福。 Dave Curry, what a blessing to have you with us today.
非常感谢你和我们在一起。 Thank you so much for being with us.
嗯，谢谢你邀请我，吉姆。 Well, thank you for having me, Jim.
我真的很享受。 I really enjoyed it.
好的，愿神保佑你们所有人！ All right, God bless you all!