你好，欢迎来到《与阿奎那共饮》节目。 Hi, welcome to Pints with Aquinas.
我刚刚采访了蒂姆·斯台普尔斯，讨论了四个关于马利亚的教义， 即神之母马利亚、马利亚的永恒童贞、无原罪成胎和马利亚升天。 I just interviewed Tim Staples on the four Marian dogmas, that is to say, Mary the Mother of God, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary.
我们甚至谈到了马利亚作为万恩中保，可能在未来被定义为第五个马利亚教义，谁知道呢。 We even talked about Mary being the Mediatrix of All Graces, a possible fifth Marian dogma to be defined in the future, who knows.
这是一次非常重要的采访，我想着回家后明天再录制介绍。 It was such a big interview and I thought to myself, I'll go home and I'll record the intro tomorrow.
然后我想，不，我不会那样做，因为如果那样做，我就不会有现在这种充满激情的感觉。 And then I thought, no, I'm not going to do that because if I do that, I won't have the kind of enthusiasm that is just pulsing through my veins right now.
天哪，天哪，天哪，天哪。 My goodness, goodness, goodness, goodness gracious.
这真是一次重要的采访。 This is like the one interview.
如果你想了解公教会关于圣母的教导，以及为什么你与 她有关系并应当对她产生敬奉之情，这就是那次采访。 If you want to understand what the Catholic Church teaches about the Blessed Mother and why it is you have a relationship with her and ought to develop a devotion to her, this is that one interview.
我想请你为我做一件事。 And I would ask you to do something for me.
我希望你能把这个视频分享给你的一位新教朋友。 I would like you to share this video with a Protestant friend of yours.
点击分享，把它放在脸书上，放在推特上，直接发送给你的一位新教朋友。 Click share, put it on Facebook, put it on Twitter, send it directly to a Protestant friend of yours.
如果你是新教徒在看这个视频，我恳请你保持开放的心态。 And if you're a Protestant watching this, I just beg you to be open-minded.
你能听我唠叨几分钟，这本身就是你心态开放的证明。 The fact that you've even gotten through a couple of minutes of me jabbering is evidence that you have an open mind.
但请在听这个时保持开放的心态。 But please have an open mind as you listen to this.
作为一个天主教徒，我对我的新教兄弟姐妹有着深厚的爱。 As a Catholic, I have tremendous love for my Protestant brothers and sisters.
当我的新教兄弟姐妹看到天主教徒面前的马利亚 雕像和燃烧的蜡烛时，我也能理解他们的感受。 And I also can sympathize with my Protestant brothers and sisters when they look at Catholics and they see statues of Mary and candles burning before her.
我明白。 I get it.
从新教的角度来看，我明白。 I get it coming from a Protestant perspective.
我能理解那看起来有多奇怪。 I can see how that looks weird.
但新教徒做的事情对我们来说也有些奇怪。 But there's also things that Protestants do that look weird to us.
我想你会对我说，好吧，这是你不习惯的不同文化。 And I think what you would say to me is, okay, this is a different culture to what you're used to.
至少给我们一个解释的机会。 At least give us the chance to explain it.
所以这就是我在这一集里想做的事情。 And so that's what I want to do in this episode.
我希望蒂姆能帮助你理解天主教徒对马利亚的信仰，以及所有基督徒应该对马利亚的信仰。 I want Tim to help you understand what Catholics believe about Mary and what all Christians should believe about Mary.
现在，每当我们做《与阿奎那共饮》节目时，我们都会上传节目后的总结视频。 Now, whenever we do these Pints with Aquinas shows, we put up post-show wrap-up videos.
这一集非常精彩。 This one was awesome.
所以在今天的节目后总结视频中，我问蒂姆关于 马利亚显现的事，历史上圣母马利亚的显现。 So the post-show wrap-up video today, I asked Tim about Marian apparitions, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary throughout history.
我问他哪些显现最让他信服。 I asked him the ones he finds the most convincing.
我还请他对梅杜戈耶的圣母显现发表看法。 And I asked him to give us his opinion on the alleged apparitions of the Blessed Mother in Medjugorje.
你一定不想错过这个。 You are not going to want to miss that.
相信我。 Believe me.
所以如果你是赞助者，我们会在今天结束时上传。 So if you're a patron, we'll have it up at the end of the day.
到今天结束时，你就可以观看了。 By the end of the day, you can watch it.
如果你想成为赞助者，你将可以观看我们所有的节目后总结视频。 And if you want to become a patron, you'll get access to all of these post-show wrap-up videos that we do.
这真的很棒。 It was really great.
你能看出来我现在超级兴奋吗？ Can you tell that I'm just like super pumped right now?
因为我现在真的超级兴奋。 Because I am super pumped right now.
帮我个忙。 Do me a favor.
点击下面的订阅和那个铃铛按钮。 Click subscribe below and that bell button.
这样就会强制谷歌在我们发布新视频时通知你。 And that will force Google to let you know whenever we put out a new video.
说实话，强制谷歌通知你关于圣母的视频发布，这是一件美好的事情。 And quite honestly, forcing Google, come on, forcing them to let you know when a video comes out on the Blessed Mother, that's a beautiful thing.
此外，像我们一直做的那样，我们将在接下来的几周内发布一些视频片段，都是这 次与蒂姆的采访，因为这是一次相当长的采访，这样你可以把这些小片段分享给你 的新教兄弟姐妹和天主教兄弟姐妹，以便我们都能对神之母有更准确的认识。 Also, as we always do, we're going to be putting out videos over the next couple of weeks, just little snippets from this interview with Tim, because it was quite a long interview, so that you can share those little snippets with your Protestant brothers and sisters, your Catholic brothers and sisters, so that we can all have a more accurate view of the Mother of God.
好了，这就够了。 All right, that'll do.
节目开始了。 Here's the show.
蒂姆·斯台普尔斯。 Tim Staples.
很高兴见到你。 It's good to see you.
和你在一起真好，我的朋友。 It is good to be with you, my friend.
你是在看我的脸还是在看我的监视器？ Are you looking at my face or a monitor of me?
不，我就在看你的脸，那位有胡子的奇人。 No, I'm looking right at your face, the bearded wonder himself.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
本，自从你离开后，这个地方变得如此空荡。 Ben, you know, this place is so empty since you left, man.
我怀念天主教答疑。 I miss Catholic Answers.
最近和你在一起时，我们在那个晚会上是在哪里？ When I was with you recently, where were we at that gala?
我不会撒谎。 I'm not going to lie.
有一部分的我想打电话给我妻子，问她是否可以让我试着说服你再给我一份工作。 There was part of me that was like, I'm just going to call my wife, ask her if I can try and talk you into giving me a job again.
是的，和你在一起真好，伙计。 Yes, it is good to be with you, man.
很高兴看到你做得这么好。 It's great to see you're doing such great work.
哦，求神，我是。 Oh, please, God, I am.
是的，我非常享受我的时光。 Yeah, I just thoroughly enjoyed my time.
对于那些在观看的人来说，蒂姆·斯台普尔斯曾是我在天主教答疑时的老板，长达三年。 For those who are watching, Tim Staples was my boss back in the days of Catholic Answers for three years.
蒂姆，我从你那里学到了很多，能在天主教答疑工作真是一种快乐。 I learned so much from you, Tim, and it was just a joy to work at Catholic Answers when I did.
嗯，我们也失去了很多人，因为我们这里现在没有澳大利亚口音了。 Well, we've also lost a whole lot of people because we don't have an Australian accent now here.
对。 Right.
就像，我不想要跨国智慧。 Like, I don't want trans intellect.
我们需要一个澳大利亚口音。 We need an Aussie accent.
是的，太有趣了。 Yeah, so funny.
今天我们要谈论圣母，我真的很兴奋，因为我们 有很多新教观众，我希望我们能澄清一些事情。 Well, today we're going to talk about the Blessed Mother, and I'm really excited to talk about this because we have a lot, a surprising amount of Protestant viewers, and my hope is that we can kind of clarify some things.
我认为这是人们在面对公教会时最大的绊脚石之一。 I think this is one of the biggest stumbling blocks people have when it comes to the Catholic Church.
他们不理解，我知道你可以谈论这个，因为你曾经是浸信会的，对吗，还是神召会什么的？ They don't understand it, and I know you're in a place to talk about that because you used to be a Baptist, correct, or Assemblies of God or something?
我两者都是。 I was both.
我经历了各种事情，但，是的，我是南方浸信会长大的。 I was all kind of stuff, but, yeah, I was raised a Southern Baptist.
后来我成为了神召会的青年牧师。 I later became a youth pastor in the Assemblies of God.
我曾是吉米·斯瓦加特圣经学院的学生，事实上，正如你所知，马特，我 在天主教答疑的皈依故事叫做《吉米·斯瓦加特让我成为天主教徒》，因 为我确实是在路易斯安那州巴吞鲁日的JSBC时皈依了天主教信仰。 I was a student at boy1 Swaggart Bible College, and, in fact, as you know, Matt, my conversion story here at Catholic Answers is called boy1 Swaggart Made Me Catholic because I really did convert to the Catholic faith while I was at JSBC in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
所以马利亚是我最大的障碍。 So Mary was the greatest obstacle for me.
最大的。 The greatest.
怎么说？ How so?
所以你开始理解某些天主教教义，你看到了最早的基督徒怎么说。 So you started to kind of wrap your mind around what certain Catholic teachings, you saw what the earliest Christians had to say.
是的。 Yeah.
你知道吗？ You know what?
让我想想，因为我最近一直在思考这个问题，事实上，我 会说在前十名中，因为没有一个原因让我不是天主教徒。 Let me check that because I've been thinking about this recently, in fact, because I would say of the top ten, because there wasn't one reason why I wasn't Catholic.
我认为公教会简直是疯了。 I thought the Catholic Church was just crazy.
怎么会有头脑正常的人是天主教徒呢？ How could anybody that has a brain that works be Catholic?
我对公教会有很多问题，但在我的前十名中，我必须说马利亚教义占了其中的六个。 I had so many problems with the Catholic Church, but of my top ten, I would have to say that Marian doctrines made up about six of those ten.
但我必须说我不是天主教徒的首要原因是圣餐。 But I would have to say the number one reason I wasn't Catholic was the Eucharist.
我认为那是偶像崇拜，疯狂。 I thought that was idolatry, insanity.
这对我来说完全没有意义。 It made absolutely no sense to me.
但在那之后，肯定是无原罪成胎和升天。 But after that, definitely the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption.
我的意思是，对我来说，无原罪成胎，所有的罪， 伙计，你不知道“所有”是什么意思吗，第一？ I mean, to me, the Immaculate Conception, all of sin, dude, what part of all don't you know, number one?
而升天对我来说是最大的假设，因为没有任何依据。 And the Assumption to me was the greatest assumption ever made because there's nothing.
这就是一个假设。 It is an Assumption.
经文中没有任何记载。 There's nothing in Scripture.
甚至在早期教父中也没有任何记载，你们这些疯狂的天主教徒声称爱护和珍惜的。 There's nothing in the early fathers, even, that you crazy Catholics claim to love and cherish.
至少到五世纪才有记载，对吗？ Nothing until at least the fifth century, right?
或者甚至到六世纪，正如一些新教徒所说的那样。 Or even sixth century, as some Protestants would say.
是的，因为我知道很多新教徒会说，好吧，我几乎可以 同意你关于圣餐的说法，特别是当我看早期教会时。 Yeah, because I know a lot of Protestants who say, OK, I can almost get on board with what you're saying about the Eucharist, especially when I look at the early church.
事实上，当你读约翰福音第六章时，至少表面上看，它似乎在说天主教徒一直相信的东西。 The fact that when you read John 6, at least prima facie, it seems to say what Catholics have always believed.
但马利亚，我觉得有很多善良的新教徒会说，看，我明白。 But Mary, it just feels like, I think there's a lot of good-hearted Protestants who are like, look, I get it.
她是一个了不起的人。 She was a wonderful person.
我甚至可以称她为有福的，因为她说所有世代都要称她为有福的。 I can even call her blessed because she said all generations will call her blessed.
但你们天主教徒对她的所有说法都太过了。 But all you Catholics say about her is over the top.
所以我在想，蒂姆，除非你在我们开始之前想说些什么，否则我 很想谈谈这些事情，神之母、永恒童贞、无原罪成胎之类的。 So I was thinking, Tim, unless you wanted to say anything before we get into it, I'd love to talk about some of these things, Mother of God, Perpetual Virgin, Immaculate Conception, this sort of thing.
当然。 Absolutely.
对我来说，现在，正如你所知，马特，大多数新教徒，尤其是更传 统的新教徒，至少在概念上同意我们关于马利亚是神之母的观点。 For me now, and as you know, Matt, most Protestants, certainly the more traditional Protestants, agree with us, at least conceptually, with regard to Mary being the Mother of God.
在福音派和基要主义者中，哦，这是行不通的。 Among evangelicals, fundamentalists, oh, it's a no-go.
但再次强调，现在我们更传统的新教徒不理解其中的影响，这源于马利亚是神之母的事实。 But again, now, our more traditional Protestants don't understand the ramifications involved, that it follows from the fact that Mary is the Mother of God.
但他们至少会承认耶稣基督是神。 But they would at least acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God.
马利亚是耶稣的母亲。 Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
这个三段论是无懈可击的。 The syllogism is airtight.
这是必然的结论。 It follows, necessarily.
马利亚是神之母。 Mary is the Mother of God.
但我是在一个教导像吉米·斯瓦加特在他的书《天主教与基督教》 中那样的传统中长大的，沃尔特·马丁博士，你的一些新教徒追随 者或观众可能还记得沃尔特·马丁博士，那是在七八十年代。 But I was raised, Matt, in a tradition that taught, like boy1 Swaggart in his book, Catholicism vs. Christianity, Dr. Walter Martin, who some of your followers or watchers here who are Protestant probably remember Dr. Walter Martin at the time, way back in the 70s and 80s.
他可能是世界上最受欢迎的新教护教学者，当然在美国也是。 He was probably the most popular Protestant apologist in the world, certainly in the United States.
而沃尔特·马丁博士是著名的反对马利亚为神之母的人。 And Dr. Walter Martin was a famous opponent of Mary as Mother of God.
我对马利亚作为神之母的问题是，你似乎在把马利亚当作神。 And the problem I had with Mary as Mother of God is you seem to be making a God out of Mary.
因为，看，我们知道耶稣是神的原因之一或方式之一是他以神的儿子身份显现自己。 Because, look, one of the reasons why or one of the ways we know Jesus is God is He reveals Himself as the Son of God.
因为神爱世人，甚至将他的独生子赐给他们，独一无二的。 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, monogamous.
他是唯一的天生之子。 He is the only Son by nature.
当然，天使是通过参与成为儿子的。 Of course, angels are sons by participation.
我们是通过收养和参与成为儿子的。 We are sons by adoption as well as participation.
但只有耶稣被显现为天生之子。 But Jesus alone is revealed to be Son by nature.
在那启示中，当然，他被显现为神。 And in that revelation, then, of course, He is revealed as God.
所以，当然，我们作为基督徒在这一点上是一致的。 And so, and of course, we all agree as Christians on that point.
所以，马特，我记得当他们说马利亚是神之母时，我会想，你实际上是在说马利亚是神。 And so, Matt, in my mind, I can remember thinking when they say Mary's the Mother of God, you are ipso facto necessarily saying Mary is God.
因为狗生狗。 Because a dog gives birth to a dog.
猫生猫，人生人。 Cat, cat, human, human.
神生神。 God, God.
这对我来说是个大问题。 And that was a huge problem with me.
我保证现在听的人中也有一些人有这个问题。 And I guarantee you some folks listening right now have that problem as well.
对。 Right.
我想有些人会说，好吧，如果你说马利亚是神之母，你就是在说她是他神性的来源。 I think some people would say, okay, if you say Mary is the Mother of God, you're saying that she's the source of His divinity.
所以很多新教徒，或者至少我知道其中一些人，会说，好吧，她生了人性。 And so a lot of Protestants, or I know some of them at least, want to say, okay, well, she gave birth to the human nature.
你怎么说？ What do you say to that?
对，对。 Right, right.
你知道，这让我想起了我的书《看哪，你的母亲》，我知道你读过并记住了，对吗？ You know, this reminds me, in fact, in my book, Behold Your Mother, which I know you've read and memorized, right?
说实话，这是最好的书之一，可能是最好的书。 It's honestly one of the best, probably the best book.
事实上，不，这本书是我读过的关于护教学中最 好的书，涉及马利亚和天主教徒对她的看法。 In fact, nay, the best book I've read on apologetics as it pertains to Mary and what Catholics think of her.
真的，真的很好。 Really, really good.
好吧，我稍后付钱给你。 Okay, I'll pay you later.
谢谢。 Thank you.
无论如何，在《看哪，你的母亲》中，我在那儿指出， 多年前，天哪，我不敢相信那是1986年，马特。 Anyway, in Behold Your Mother, I make the point there, years ago, oh my gosh, I can't believe that was 1986, Matt.
这意味着我正式变老了。 That means I'm officially old.
我那时三岁，继续。 I was three, continue.
是的，但当时有一场辩论，我很兴奋，因为我正处于天主教研究的激烈阶段。 Yes, but there was a debate, and I was excited because I was in the midst of, really, the throes of my Catholic studies.
我当时在海军陆战队的最后一年。 I was in my final year in the Marine Corps.
我遇到了我的朋友，马特·杜拉中士。 I'd met my buddy, Sergeant Matt Dula.
对于那些不知道的人来说，这就是让我开始走向罗马的人，我们在讨论，我听到，天哪， 沃尔特·马丁博士要和这个疯狂的耶稣会士米奇·帕夸神父辩论，我当时从未听说过他。 For those of you who don't know, this is the guy that got me started toward Rome, and we were going at it, and I hear, oh my goodness, Dr. Walter Martin's going to debate this crazy Jesuit, Father Mitch Pacwa, who I'd never heard of at this time.
他当时只是一个年轻人，刚从21年的神学院毕业。 He was just a young buck, just out of 21 years of the seminary.
真的，帕夸神父在神学院待了21年。 Literally, he was in the seminary for 21 years, Father Pacwa.
当时没有人真正认识他，但他与沃尔特·马丁辩论，在那场辩论 中，沃尔特·马丁的书《邪教之王》，我读过并吞噬并记住了。 Nobody really knew him back then, but he debated Walter Martin, and in that debate, Walter Martin, whose book, The King of the Cults, I had read and devoured and memorized.
实际上，我读了好几遍，现在还保留着。 I read it, actually, multiple times, still have it.
他在与帕夸神父的辩论中提出了这一点。 He makes this very point in the debate with Father Pacwa.
他说，看，如果你接受这个三段论，耶稣是神，马利亚是耶稣的母亲，因此，或 者耶稣是神，马利亚是耶稣的母亲，因此，马利亚是神的母亲，那么你就必须说 ，神是三位一体，马利亚是神的母亲，因此，马利亚是三位一体的母亲，对吧？ He says, look, if you accept this syllogism, Jesus is God, marries the mother of Jesus, therefore, or Jesus is God, marries the mother of Jesus, therefore, marries the mother of God, well, then you have to then say, God is Trinity, marries the mother of God, therefore, marries the mother of the Trinity, pal, right?
我当时想，是啊，回答这个问题吧，你这个疯狂的耶稣会士，对吧？ And I'm going, yeah, answer that, you crazy Jesuit, right?
当然，帕夸神父冷静地回应说，看，你的三段论是无效的，伙计。 And, of course, Father Pacwa just calmly responds and says, look, you have an invalid syllogism there, pal.
你在术语上模棱两可。 You're equivocating on terms.
当你说神是三位一体时，这是一个真实的命题。 When you say God is Trinity, that is a true proposition.
然而，你不一定指的是所有三位，因为我们有三位一体的三位。 However, you are not necessarily referring to all three persons, because we have three persons of the Blessed Trinity.
我们可以说圣父是神，圣子是神，圣灵是神，我们不必总是指所有三位。 We can say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and we don't have to be referring to all three persons at all times.
所以你的三段论失败了，因为，是的，神是三位一体，但马利亚作 为神之母，不是三位一体的母亲，因为圣父和圣灵没有道成肉身。 And so your syllogism fails, because, yes, God is Trinity, but Mary, being the mother of God, is not the mother of the Trinity, because the Father and the Holy Spirit were not incarnate.
只有三位一体的第二位道成肉身。 It was only the second person of the Blessed Trinity who was incarnate.
我得告诉你，马特，这就像是第一步。 And I have to tell you, Matt, this was like a first step.
这对我来说有道理，我想，哇，他击败了沃尔特·马丁的三段论。 It made sense to me, and I'm going, wow, he blew away Walter Martin's syllogism there.
但他仍然没有回答问题，因为马丁仍然有反驳说，好吧，即使我说， 好吧，也许我这里有点偏差，但三位一体的第二位仍然具有神性。 But he still didn't answer the question, because Martin still had the comeback that, okay, well, even if I say, okay, maybe I was a little bit off here, still the second person of the Blessed Trinity has a divine nature.
所以如果你说马利亚是三位一体的第二位的母亲，你仍然是在说她是神性的来源。 So if you say Mary's the mother of the second person of the Blessed Trinity, you're still saying she's the source of divinity.
我告诉你，沃尔特·马丁在这场辩论中被击败了，蒂姆·斯台普尔斯也是 ，他在观看时，帕夸神父只是用了一个简单的人类婚姻和生育的类比。 And I'll tell you, Walter Martin got torched in this debate, and so did Tim Staples, who was watching it, when Father Pacwa used just a simple analogy of a human marriage and childbirth.
正如你所知，马特，那时这震撼了我的世界。 And as you know, Matt, and man, it rocked my world back then.
我不喜欢我在这里错了的事实。 I didn't like the fact that I was wrong here.
但他说，看，想想看。 But he says, look, think about it.
妈妈，爸爸在一起，结婚，然后他们有了一个孩子。 Mom, dad get together, get married, and they have a baby.
好吧，现在我就用我们谈话的例子，马特，我的妻子和我的第一个儿子，蒂米。 All right, now I'll use, just for our conversation, Matt, my wife and my first son, Timmy.
现在，当我妻子在她的子宫里怀上蒂米时，我们 会说我妻子和我是我儿子人类灵魂的来源吗？ Now, when my wife conceived Timmy in her womb, would we say that my wife and I were the source of the human soul of my son?
不。当然我们说不，因为我们不是灵魂传递论者，对吧？ No. And of course we say no, because we're not tradutionists, right?
不，显然不是。 No, obviously not.
好吧，等一下。 Well, wait a minute.
等一下。 Wait a minute.
那这是否意味着，在蒂米的余生中，他应该对他的母亲说，您好，我身体的母亲？ Does that mean, then, that for the rest of Timmy's life, he should be saying to his mother, hello, mother of my body?
当然不是。 Of course not.
为什么呢？ And why is that?
因为即使瓦尔和我，我的妻子和我，只是身体的来源，从物理 上讲，那是我们给我们儿子的，我的妻子没有生下一个身体。 Because even though Val and I, my wife and I, are only the source of the body, physically speaking, that's what we gave to our son, my wife didn't give birth to a body.
她甚至没有生下一个本性。 She didn't even give birth to a nature.
她生下的是一个身心合一的人。 She gave birth to a person who is a body-soul composite.
所以我们说，我们是父母。 And so we say, we are the parents.
我是父亲。 I am the father.
她是蒂米的母亲。 She is the mother of Timmy.
帕夸神父指出，同样地，当马利亚生下耶稣时，她生下的是一个身体吗？ Well, in the same way, Father Pacwa points out, when Mary gave birth, did she give birth to a body?
不，她没有。 No, she did not.
她没有生下一个身体。 She didn't give birth to a body.
她生下的是一个人类灵魂吗？ Did she give birth to a human soul?
不。即使她只是耶稣人类身体的来源，这并不意味着她不是他的母亲。 No. Even though she is only the source of the human body of Jesus, that doesn't mean she is not His mother.
对吗？ Right?
因为她没有生下一个身体，她没有生下一个本性，她甚至没有生下两个本性。 Because she didn't give birth to a body, she didn't give birth to a nature, she didn't even give birth to two natures.
她生下的是一个人。 She gave birth to a person.
这就是辩论的转折点，马特。 And this is where the debate turned, Matt.
帕夸神父在这里做出了一个震撼的联系，令我震惊。 And Father Pacwa made the devastating connection here that blew my mind.
他说，看，如果你否认马利亚是神之母，你就是在否认 耶稣基督的本质，否认耶稣基督作为神人二性的本质。 He said, look, if you deny Mary is the mother of God, you are denying something essential about the person of Jesus Christ, the nature of Jesus Christ as the God-man.
因为你最终会把耶稣分成两个人。 Because you end up separating Jesus into two persons.
因为谁——帕夸神父问了这个问题。 Because who did – and Father had asked the question.
在过去的几十年里，我问过成千上万的新教朋友。 I've asked thousands of my Protestant friends down through the last several decades.
耶稣——或者说马利亚生下了谁？ Who did Jesus – or who did Mary give birth to?
谁？ Who?
是神吗？ Was it God?
很快，你知道你在书中看到的，我在书中有一个关于我多年前辩论的小故事。 And real quick, you know you saw in the book, I have a little anecdote in the book about a debate I had years ago.
那实际上是在一个天主教教堂里。 It was actually in a Catholic church.
当时有大约700人在场，与一位新教牧师辩论。 It was about 700 people there at the debate with a Protestant minister.
在辩论中我们谈到了神之母这个问题，我问了他这些问题。 And during the debate we got to this point on the mother of God, and I asked him these questions.
好吧，我们来简化一下。 Okay, well, look, let's just simplify things here.
让我问你这个问题。 Let me ask you this.
你相信耶稣是神吗？ Do you believe Jesus is God?
他说是的。 He said yes.
我说，你相信他在六个月大时是神吗？ I said, do you believe that he was God when he was six months old?
他说，绝对是。 He said, absolutely.
我想，谢天谢地，因为我们还有更多工作要做，对吧？ And I'm going, thank goodness, because we'd have more work to do, right?
好，是的。 Okay, yes.
当他在圣母马利亚的子宫里六个月时，他是神吗？ Was he God when he was six months in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
反应有点慢，但回答是的。 A little bit of a slower response, but yes.
他看出了你的意图。 He saw where you were going.
是的。 Yes.
然后我问，当他从圣母马利亚的子宫里出来时，他是神吗？ And then I asked the question, was he God when he was coming out of the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
现场有点沉默。 And there was kind of silence.
嗯，是的。 Well, yes.
马利亚是神之母吗？ Is Mary the mother of God?
你可以听到一根针掉在地上的声音。 You could have heard a pin drop.
整个教堂沉默了大约十秒钟，场面很尴尬。 There was silence in the whole church for about ten awkward seconds.
然后他喊道，不，她不是神之母。 And then he exclaimed, no, she's not the mother of God.
我说，兄弟，我认为你需要回家祈祷一下，因为我认为你知道，是的，她是神之母，因 为如果你承认耶稣基督是神人，那么马利亚实际上是神之母这一事实是无法回避的。 And I said, brother, I think you need to go home and pray on that a little bit, because I think you know that, yes, she is the mother of God, because if you acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the God man, then there is no way around the fact that Mary is, in fact, the mother of God.
这对我来说是一个巨大的进步，因为我看到了，然后我深入研究，开始学习马利亚学。 And that was a huge step for me because I saw it, and then I dove in and I started studying Mariology.
我买了书。 I got books.
我开始阅读教父们的著作，天哪，我真的陷入了困境。 I started reading Fathers of the Church on it, and, man, did I get myself in trouble.
所以这个教义，这个马利亚为神之母的教义，从某种意义上说，是 为了保护关于基督的某些东西，而不仅仅是关于马利亚的，对吗？ So this doctrine, this dogma of Mary being Theotokos, is meant to guard something about Christ more than it is something about Mary, in a sense, right?
完全正确。 Exactly.
事实上，如果你去看，我在我的书《看哪，你的母亲》中引 用了沃尔特·马丁博士的著名书籍，这是一本很好的书。 In fact, if you go to, and again, I quote this in my book, Behold Your Mother, Dr. Walter Martin's famous book, and it's an excellent book.
就像我说的，我读了好几遍。 Like I said, I've read it multiple times.
这是一本很好的护教学书籍。 It's an excellent apologetics book.
它叫《邪教之王》。 It's called Kingdom of the Cults.
多年来它卖出了无数的副本。 It's sold bazillions of copies over the years.
沃尔特·马丁在那本书的第103页，他是发生了什么的经典例子 ，或者说他成为了否认马利亚是神之母时会发生什么的经典例子。 Walter Martin, on page 103 of that book, he is the classic example of what happened, or he becomes a classic example of what happens when you deny Mary's the mother of God.
因为，看，马特，否认是一回事，不是吗？ Because, see, it's one thing, Matt, isn't it, to deny.
否认东西很容易。 It's easy to deny stuff.
嘿，你错了，伙计，我不相信那。 Hey, you're wrong, man, I don't believe that.
但基于你的否认建立一个神学是另一回事。 But it's another thing to build a theology based on your denial.
所以他说，哦，现在马利亚不是神之母，那是偶像崇拜，是这样或那样的，这是一回事。 And so it's one thing for him to say, oh, now Mary's not the mother of God, that's idolatry, that's this or that.
好吧，那么耶稣是谁？ Okay, well then who is Jesus?
当他试图建立一个基督论时，他走上了1500、1600年前景教徒的老路。 When he attempts to build a Christology, he goes the same road as the Nestorians 1,500, 1,600 years before.
他在第103页说了这些。我是凭记忆说的，但如果你 看我的书《看哪，你的母亲》，我在那里面都引用了。 And he says this on page 103. I'm going from memory here, but if you get my book, Behold Your Mother, I got it all quoted there for you.
他说，基本上是天主教徒创造了这个概念，你知道， 马利亚是神之母，这在基督论上导致了各种问题。 He says that it's the Catholics, basically, who created this idea, you know, Mary the mother of God, and it leads to all sorts of problems Christologically.
他说这是基于永恒子嗣的谬误。 And he says it's based on a fallacy of eternal sonship.
沃尔特·马丁说，看，圣经从未教导过永恒子嗣，因为子嗣适用于时间、变化和人类。 And Walter Martin says, see, the Bible never teaches eternal sonship because sonship applies to time and change and humanity.
所以它不能适用于神性。 So it can't apply to divinity.
天主教徒做了这些，他们把自己搞得很麻烦。 The Catholics did that, and they get themselves in trouble.
所以神不能是儿子。 So God can't be the son.
他成为了儿子。 He became a son.
你明白吗，马特？ Do you catch that, Matt?
他在道成肉身中成为了儿子，一个类比的儿子，好吗？ He became a son in the Incarnation, a son by analogy, all right?
然后，如果这还不够糟糕的话，因为基本上沃尔特·马丁所做的是他失去了耶稣。 And then, if that's not bad enough, because basically what Walter Martin did is he lost Jesus.
在否认马利亚是神之母的过程中，他失去了耶稣。 In the midst of denying Mary's the mother of God, he lost Jesus.
但接下来，马特，他又说，我们在新约的任何地方都没有看到圣父被称为 永恒的父亲，因为父亲身份也适用于时间、变化，它不能适用于神性。 But in the next breath, Matt, he then says, neither do we see anywhere in the pages of the New Testament the Father ever referred to as the Eternal Father, because fatherhood, too, applies then to time, to change, and it cannot apply to divinity.
沃尔特·马丁说，只有希伯来书第9章第14节中的圣灵被称为永恒的灵。 There's only the Spirit in Hebrews 9, verse 14, Walter Martin says, is referred to as the Eternal Spirit.
所以神在永恒中，想象一下，马特，在永恒中，我3 4年前不得不问沃尔特·马丁博士，那么，谁是神？ So God in all eternity, imagine this, Matt, in all eternity, and I had to ask the question 34 years ago of Dr. Walter Martin, well then, who is God?
在永恒中，在创造之前，谁是神？ In all eternity, before there was a creation, who is God?
沃尔特·马丁唯一能说的是，我们不知道。 And the only thing Walter Martin could say is, we don't know.
我们知道有三位，但我们不知道第一位。 We know there are three persons, but we don't know the first person.
第二位是永恒的道，因为约翰福音1:1:1，太 初有道，道与神同在，道就是神，第三位是圣灵。 The second person is the Eternal Word, because John 1, 1, 1, and the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God, and the third person is the Holy Spirit.
天哪，马特。 My goodness, Matt.
在否认马利亚是神之母的过程中，沃尔特·马丁最终失去了耶稣，现在他失去了耶稣来 到这个世界的一个核心原因，那就是显明神在永恒中的内在生命，圣父、圣子、圣灵。 In the midst of denying Mary's the mother of God, Walter Martin ended up losing Jesus, and now he's lost one of the central reasons why Jesus came to this earth, and that is to reveal God as He is in His inner life from all eternity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
约翰福音第17章的大祭司祷告，马特。 The great high priestly prayer of John 17, Matt.
我的意思是，父啊，求你使我同你享荣耀，就是未有世界以先我同你所有的荣耀。 I mean, Father, glorify Thou me with the glory I had with Thee before the world was.
父啊，我已将你的名显明给他们，还要显明。 Father, I have revealed Your name, and I will reveal it again.
什么名字？ What name?
父。 Father.
我的意思是，这太令人震惊了。 I mean, this was devastating.
马特，我甚至无法用语言表达，当我意识到这一点时，这对我来说是多么的 毁灭性，天哪，我们作为新教徒，我们这些好的浸信会和五旬节派，在否认 马利亚是神之母的过程中，我们最终变成了景教徒，我们最终在基督里创造 了两个人，甚至最终，我可以告诉你，在书中，我引用了埃里克·斯文森博 士，他在否认马利亚是神之母时，对耶稣基督有一个更疯狂的想法。 I can't even put it into words, Matt, how devastating this was to me when I realized, oh my goodness, we as Protestants, we good Baptists and Pentecostals, in the midst of denying Mary's the mother of God, we end up Nestorian, we end up creating two persons in Christ, and ultimately even, and I can tell you in the book, I quote Dr. Eric Svensson, who has an even crazier idea of who Jesus Christ is in his denial of Mary's the mother of God.
这非常重要。 And this is so important.
马特，我可能会说，我在我的书《看哪，你的母亲》中最重要的贡献 是，我试图展示每一个马利亚教义对我们的灵性生活是多么重要。 Probably I would say, Matt, the most important contribution I make in my book, Behold Your Mother, is I tried to show how each one of the Marian doctrines is crucial for our spiritual lives.
它们对我们的救赎，对我们认识神是谁至关重要。 They're crucial for our salvation, for us to know who God is.
这就是永生，使他们认识你独一的真神，并且认识你所差来的耶稣基督。 This is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.
正是在认识马利亚中我们才得以认识，正如你之前所说，马利亚捍卫 了那些会贬低她的儿子或圣父、圣子、圣灵的异端，神之母是一个经 典的例子，如果你在马利亚上错过了，你最终会在耶稣和神上错过。 It's in knowing Mary that we come to know, and as you said earlier, Mary defends against heresies that would diminish her son or father, son, Holy Spirit, and Theotokos is the classic example that if you miss it on Mary, you're going to end up missing it on Jesus and missing it on God.
那太好了。 That's excellent.
我想在这一点上我能听到一个新教徒说，好吧，从技术上讲这是真的 ，但我们仍然不应该使用这种语言，因为它会不必要地让人困惑。 I think at this point I could hear a Protestant saying, okay, technically it's true, but we still shouldn't use the language because it confuses people unnecessarily.
但对我来说，这就像有人说，看，当我们向我们的 穆斯林朋友传福音时，不要谈论神是三位一体。 But to me that's like somebody saying, look, when we evangelize our Muslim friends, don't talk about God as Trinity.
也许从技术上讲这是真的，但我们不想让人困惑。 Maybe technically it's true, but we don't want to confuse people.
换句话说，我们要按事物的本来面目谈论它们，即使它们 让人困惑，好吧，那是我们可以在事后尝试澄清的事情。 In other words, the point, we want to talk about things as they are, and even if they confuse people, well, that's something we can try and clear up after the fact.
你知道，马特，美妙的是，在我通往天主教信仰的旅程中，当我开始看 到这样的真理和我们可以谈论的许多其他真理时，我感到非常害怕。 You know, the beautiful thing, Matt, is in my own odyssey to the Catholic faith, it started, I was petrified when I started to see truths like this and so many others we could talk about.
我感到非常害怕。 I was petrified.
我不想要它。 I didn't want it.
我的意思是，我想成为一个五旬节派教会的牧师。 I mean, I wanted to be a pastor of a Pentecostal church.
伙计，我在找一个会弹钢琴的漂亮妻子。 Man, I was looking for a good-looking wife that plays piano.
伙计，我不想要这个。 Man, I don't want this.
这是一件可怕的事情。 And it was a fearful thing.
但一旦你深入其中，你就会开始看到联系。 But what happens is once you dive in, you start seeing connections.
你开始看到那神学。 You start seeing that theology.
我认为是弗兰克·希德说过神学是一部交响乐。 I think it was Frank Sheed who said theology is a symphony.
这是真的，因为一切最终都是相连的，因为真理不仅仅是一个概念。 And it is so true because everything is connected ultimately because truth is not just a concept.
它是一个人。 It's a person.
耶稣说，我就是真理。 Jesus said, I am the truth.
我不仅仅讲真理。 I don't just speak truth.
我就是真理。 I am the truth.
好吧，我能看到一个新教徒说，好吧，没问题。 Okay, so I can see a Protestant saying, okay, fine.
她是神之母。 She's the mother of God.
明白了。 Got it.
并不觉得他们需要相信关于马利亚的其他任何事情。 And not really feeling like they need to believe anything else about Mary.
那么让我们谈谈第二个教义，马利亚的永恒童贞。 So let's talk about that second dogma, Mary being a perpetual virgin.
圣经提到她有兄弟。 The Bible speaks about her having brothers.
即使你能解释清楚，为什么你仍然觉得有必要捍卫她的童贞？ And even if you can explain that away, why do you feel the need to defend her virginity anyway?
为什么这如此重要？ Why is that so important?
是的。 Yes.
你知道，我记得读过，愿神保佑我的朋友马特·杜拉，他在早期就挑战了我。 You know, I can remember reading, and God bless my buddy Matt Dula who challenged me early on.
他说，蒂姆，我注意到你引用了吉米·斯瓦加特、沃尔特·马丁和诺曼·盖斯勒的话。 He said, Tim, I notice you quote boy1 Swaggard and Walter Martin and Norman Geisler.
你引用了很多新教护教学者的话。 And you quote a lot of Protestant apologists.
你以前读过教父们的著作吗？ Have you read the church fathers before?
我说，嗯，我想我读过一些零星的引用。 And I said, well, I think I've read a few quotes here and there.
你知道，我想我读过一句引用，不，我的意思是，你读过教父们的著作吗？ You know, I think I read one quote from, no, I mean, have you read the church fathers?
或者你读过任何天主教信仰的文献吗？ Or have you ever read any documents of the Catholic faith?
你知道，马特，令我惊讶的是，作为一个新教徒，我非常热衷于护教学。 And you know what was amazing to me, Matt, is whenever, as a Protestant, I was very much into apologetics.
当我研究摩门教时，我读了摩门教的文献。 When I studied Mormonism, I read Mormon documents.
当我研究耶和华见证人时，我读了《通向永生的真理》这本书。 When I studied Jehovah's Witnesses, I read the book, The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life.
我读了，但对于天主教徒，我没有那样做。 I read, but with Catholics, I just didn't do that.
他挑战了我。 He challenged me.
他实际上给了我书让我读，我开始读它们。 He actually gave me the books to read, and I started to read them.
令我惊讶的是，当你读到我们拥有的最早的教父们的著作时，因 为，正如你所知，马利亚的永恒童贞是教会教父们一致教导的。 And what was amazing to me is when you read the earliest fathers we have, because, as you know, the perpetual virginity of Mary is taught unanimously by the fathers of the church.
从我们拥有的一些最早的文献，《雅各福音》开始。 From some of the earliest documents we have, the Proto-Evangelium of James.
事实上，这就是它在公元120到140年左右写 成的一个核心原因，旨在证明马利亚的永恒童贞。 In fact, that's one of the central reasons why it was written in about 120 to 140 A.D., was demonstrating the perpetual virginity of Mary.
令我惊讶的是，马特，第一次对马利亚永恒童贞的严重拒绝。 And what was amazing to me, Matt, is the first serious rejection of Mary's perpetual virginity.
现在，除了特土良，我喜欢，正如你的一些听众可能知道的，当赫尔维迪乌斯， 基本上是第一个严重的——还有另一个叫博纳苏斯的人，安布罗斯拆散了他。 Now, other than Tertullian, I love, as some of your listeners may know, when Helvidius, who was basically the first serious – there was another fellow by the name of Bonasus who Ambrose took apart.
赫尔维迪乌斯是圣杰罗姆拆散的那个人，他提出了马利亚可能有其他孩子的可能性。 Helvidius was the one that St. Jerome took apart who posited the possibility of Mary having other children.
教父们对他们大发雷霆。 The fathers went nutso on them.
我的意思是，这是一种愤怒。 I mean it was outrage.
圣埃皮法尼乌斯很生气。 St. Epiphanius was angry.
圣杰罗姆，你怎么敢假设？ St. Jerome, how dare you posit?
谁——无论如何。 Who – whatever.
嗯，赫尔维迪乌斯用的一个人是特土良，因为特土良是第一个 否认马利亚永恒童贞的基督徒，但那是在他成为异端之后。 Well, one guy Helvidius used was Tertullian because Tertullian was the first Christian to deny Mary's perpetual virginity, but it was after he had become a heretic.
所以圣杰罗姆在他反对赫尔维迪乌斯的著作中有一句话说，当赫尔维迪乌斯 提到特土良时，他说，至于特土良，我只需要说他不是教会的儿子，对吧？ And so St. Jerome, in one line in his work against Helvidius, he says, when Helvidius brings Tertullian up, he says, as far as Tertullian goes, the only thing I need to say is he was not a son of the Church, right?
他是一个异端。 He was a heretic.
所以让我们谈谈一些严肃的事情。 So let's go on to something serious.
但这很重要，马特，所有基督徒都同意这一点。 But that's significant, Matt, that all Christians agreed with this.
这不仅仅是神学问题。 This was something that was not just a matter of theology.
这是历史！ It was history!
这是一个在全世界所有基督教社区中都知道的历史事实，第一。 This was a historical fact that was known in all the Christian communities all around the world, number one.
现在为什么这如此重要？ Now why is that so important?
嗯，在圣杰罗姆的回应中，正如我在书中指出的，杰罗姆指出 了为什么这如此重要的一些原因，那就是马利亚成为了约柜。 Well, in St. Jerome's response, as I point out in my book, Jerome gets at some of the reasons why this is so important, and that is that Mary becomes the Ark of the Covenant.
正如圣杰罗姆所说，神的殿。 As St. Jerome says, the temple of God.
事实上，杰罗姆指出，圣约瑟完全知道他与谁同住。 In fact, Jerome makes the point that St. Joseph knew full and well who he was living with.
她是为特定目的奉献给神的，正如我在书中指出的，你学习旧约，新约，每当某物或 某人被奉献给神用于特定目的时，用它或他或她用于任何其他目的都是不可想象的。 She was consecrated to God for a specific purpose, and this is something, as I point out in the book, you learn Old Testament, New Testament, whenever something or someone is consecrated to God for a particular person, to use it or he or she for any other purpose was unthinkable.
旧约的神的子民以及新约的神的子民。 Old covenant people of God as well as new covenant people of God.
事实上，亵渎或将某物用于其他目的的惩罚通常是死刑。 In fact, the punishment was often death for sacrilege or using something for another purpose.
所以在道成肉身时，圣杰罗姆说，当她为了将神带入世 界而奉献给圣灵时，想到圣约瑟触摸她是一种愤怒。 And so at the Incarnation, St. Jerome says, when she becomes consecrated to the Holy Spirit for the purpose of bringing God into the world, to think of St. Joseph touching her is an outrage.
你在开玩笑吗？ Are you kidding me?
所以现在我们需要进入细节，因为我们可以提出关于约 柜的各种伟大事物，任何触摸约柜的人都是死肉等等。 And so now we need to get into the particulars, though, because we can bring up all kinds of great stuff about the Ark of the Covenant, and anybody who touches the Ark is dead meat and all of that.
但我知道我的新教朋友会说，好吧，对不起。 But I know my Protestant friends are saying, OK, I'm sorry.
我不能走那条路，因为马太福音13:55明确告诉我们耶稣有兄弟。 I can't go down that road there because Matthew 1355 plainly tells us that Jesus has brothers.
所以也许我们应该谈谈这个。 So maybe we should go there.
我们来谈谈吧。 Let's do it.
是的。 Yeah.
我们还应该指出一个事实，即在这个教义上，新教改革者是站在你这边的。 We should also point out the fact that the Protestant reformers were on your side when it comes to this doctrine.
哦，天哪。 Oh, my goodness.
约翰·加尔文，马丁·路德，慈运理。 John Calvin, Martin Luther, Zwingli.
甚至200年后，约翰和查尔斯·卫斯理也是马利亚永恒童贞的捍卫者。 Even 200 years later, John and Charles Wesley were defenders of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
是的，还有很多我们可以谈的。 But yeah, and there's so much more we could get to.
事实上，在我的书中，我给出了八个马利亚是永恒童贞的圣经理由。 In fact, in my book, I give you eight biblical reasons why Mary is a perpetual virgin.
哦，当你深入研究时，这真的很美。 Oh, and it's really beautiful when you dive in.
不，实际上，我给出了八个无原罪成胎的理由。 No, actually, I give eight for the Immaculate Conception.
我给出了七个永恒童贞的理由。 I give seven for the perpetual virginity.
但重点是这个。 But the point is this.
对我来说，我有这个问题。 For me, I had the problem.
但马太福音13:55怎么解释？我们有主的兄弟，名叫雅各、约瑟、西门和犹大。 But what about Matthew 1355? We have the brothers of the Lord named James, Joseph, Simon and Judas.
我们有主的四个兄弟。 We've got four brothers of the Lord.
所以如果主有兄弟，那就意味着马利亚有其他孩子。 So if the Lord has brothers, that means Mary had other children.
无懈可击的论点，对吧？ Airtight argument, right?
事实上，不，不是的。 Well, in fact, no, it is not.
因为兄弟，正如你所知，马特，在一世纪的犹太教中有非常广泛的 语义范围，无论我们谈论的是希伯来语、亚拉姆语还是希腊语。 Because brothers, as you know, Matt, had a very wide semantic range in first century Judaism, whether we're talking about Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.
事实上，在希伯来文化中，这可能源于希伯来语和亚拉姆语中都没有“表兄弟”这个词。 In fact, in Hebrew culture, this probably is born out of the fact that in both Hebrew and Aramaic, they didn't have a word for cousin.
事实上，通常会使用一种迂回说法，对吧？ In fact, it was common to use, say, a circumlocution, right?
用“他父亲的兄弟的儿子”来表示表兄弟。 His father's brother's son to get at cousin.
但那样说太繁琐了。 But that becomes cumbersome.
所以几个世纪以来，你就直接说兄弟，就像我们这里的非裔美国朋友一样。 And so over the centuries, you just say, brother, kind of like our African-American friends here.
你知道，我说，嘿，兄弟，这并不意味着你们都是同一个妈妈生的。 You know, I say, hey, brother, that doesn't mean you're all from the same mama.
对。 Right.
嗯，这就是事情的发生方式。 Well, that's kind of the way it happens.
以至于亲戚被称为兄弟姐妹的观念非常深入。 So much so that that idea of relatives being brothers and sisters goes very deep.
例如，在创世记第19章中，我们看到罗得和亚伯 拉罕，尽管他们是叔侄关系，但他们互称兄弟。 For example, in Genesis chapter 19, we see Lot and Abraham, even though they are uncle and nephew by relation, they call each other brother.
为什么？ Why?
这是他们语言中根深蒂固的文化现象。 This is a cultural thing rooted in their language.
所以当你读到福音书，马太福音13:55时，主的兄弟实际上是表 兄弟或某种亲戚被称为兄弟，这并不奇怪，因为这是他们的说法。 And so when you get to the Gospels, Matthew 13, 55, it's no wonder that brothers of the Lord that are actually cousins or some sort of relative are referred to as brothers because that's the way they spoke.
当然，在希腊语中，正如你所知，马可福音第4章第1 0节使用了“nepsios”来表示马可的表兄弟。 Now, of course, in Greek, as you know, Mark chapter four, verse 10 uses a nepsios for the cousin of Mark.
希腊语确实有“表兄弟”这个词。 Greek did have a word for cousin.
但这样想。 But think of it this way.
马特，犹太人写作和说话都有犹太口音。 Matt, the Jews wrote and spoke with a Jewish accent.
对。 Right.
他们非常熟悉亚拉姆语，而亚拉姆语没有这个词。 They very much were steeped in Aramaic, which did not have the term.
这就是他们那样说话的原因。 And this is why they spoke that way.
好消息是，你实际上可以从圣经文本中指出这一点，这是我以前没有看到的。 And the good news is you can actually point this out from the text of Scripture, which I had not seen before.
我的天主教朋友让我震惊。 My my Catholic friend leveled me with.
他说，好吧，蒂姆，我们开始吧。 He says, OK, Tim, let's go.
注意马太福音13:55。顺便说一下，《公教会教理》第500段指 出，同样的主的兄弟，雅各、约瑟、西门和犹大，前两个在马太福音2 7:56中再次被提到。你有雅各和约瑟，但这次提到了他们的母亲。 Notice in Matthew 13, 55. And by the way, the Catechism of the Catholic Church points this out in paragraph 500, that the same brothers of the Lord, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas, the first two are mentioned again in Matthew 27, 56. You have James and Joseph, but this time their mama is mentioned.
顺便说一下，她的名字是马利亚，但不是神之母。 And by the way, her name is Mary, but not the mother of God.
如果你参考约翰福音19章，很多人相信。 If you cross reference to John 19 at any rate, many believe.
我认为这是一个姐妹，马利亚的姐妹，克罗帕的马利亚。 And I argue that it's a sister, Mary's sister, Mary Cleopas.
但关键是提到了母亲，而不是马利亚。 But the bottom line is the mama is mentioned and it ain't Mary.
这告诉你，主的兄弟不是同母兄弟，而是某种亲戚关系。 And that tells you that the brothers of the Lord are not uterine brothers, but they are some sort of relation.
让我给你举一个例子，还有很多，但让我给你举一个。 Let me just give you there's a lot more, but let me just give you one.
正如你所知，我可以一直说下去。 I could go forever, as you know.
但让我再给你举一个例子，因为约翰·加尔文甚至承认在加拉太书第1章 第19节中，圣保罗谈到基本上是去耶路撒冷获得彼得和使徒们的认可。 But let me just give you one more example, because John Calvin even acknowledged that in Galatians chapter one, verse 19, St. Paul talks about going up to Jerusalem basically to get approval from Peter and the apostles.
这是他皈依三年后。 And this was three years after he had converted.
现在他在多年后写下了这件事。 And now he's writing about it years later.
他说，14年后或14年前，我上了耶路撒冷。 He says 14 years later or 14 years ago, I went up to Jerusalem.
再次，这是为了获得在他之前的使徒们的认可。 And again, this is kind of to get approval of the apostles who are possible before him.
他说，我上去见了彼得。 And he says, I went up to see Peter.
你为什么要去见彼得？ Why would you go up to see Peter?
他是去见老板。 He's going up to see the boss.
他上去见彼得。 He goes up to see Peter.
当我在那里时，除了主的兄弟雅各，我没有见到其他使徒。 And while I was there, none other of the apostles did I see except James, the Lord's brother.
约翰·加尔文指出，只有两个雅各是使徒，只有两个。 John Calvin points out that there's only two Jameses that are apostles, only two.
显然，他指的不是宽泛意义上的使徒，就像使徒行传14:1 4中的巴拿巴被称为使徒一样，因为他谈到的是去见老板。 And obviously he's referring not to apostle in a looser sense, as Barnabas in Acts 14, 14 is referred to as an apostle, because he's talking about going up to see the bosses.
这是14年前的事。 And this is 14 years ago.
这些是他要去获得认可的大人物。 These are the big guys he's going up to get approval from.
当我在那里时，我只见到了彼得和主的兄弟雅各。 And while I'm there, I saw none other than Peter, but none other than James, the Lord's brother.
正如约翰·加尔文指出的，有两个雅各是使徒。 Well, as John Calvin points out, there are two Jameses that are apostles.
第一个的父亲名叫西庇太。 The first one's dad is named Zebedee.
现在，我们知道不是他，因为他在使徒行传12章早期被斩首。 Now, we know it's not him because he was beheaded very early in Acts 12. One.
所以不会是他。 So it wouldn't be him.
嗯，让我们看看这里。 Well, let's see here.
二减一等于一。 Two minus one is one.
所以只剩下一个。 And so there's only one left.
根据路加福音第六章第15和16节，他被称为亚勒腓的儿子雅各。 And he is, according to Luke chapter six, verse 15 and 16. He is called James, the son of Alphaeus.
所以无论你怎么说亚勒腓，他都不是约瑟。 And so whatever you want to say about Alphaeus, he ain't Joseph.
那么我们有什么？ And so what do we have?
我们再次有证据表明，这个主的兄弟不是耶稣的同母兄弟。 We have evidence once again that this brother of the Lord is not Jesus uterine brother.
他是某种亲戚。 He is a relative of some sort.
当你读我的书时，我会谈到优西比乌。 When you get into my book, I get into Eusebius.
我会谈到历史，这也无懈可击地表明，当然，这些 主的兄弟是表兄弟，某种亲戚，不是同母兄弟。 I get into history that shows also airtight that, of course, these brothers of the Lord are cousins, some sort of relatives, not uterine brothers.
所以，好吧，也许你可以把这些结合起来，表明天主教的立场和圣经并不矛盾。 So, OK, maybe maybe you can gel this together to show that the Catholic position and Scripture aren't inconsistent.
对。 Right.
但我仍在挣扎。 But I'm still struggling.
我能看到一些新教听众仍在挣扎，为什么这如此必要。 I can see some Protestant listeners still struggling with why it's so necessary.
我的意思是，除了你说她是奉献给神的，因此以 其他方式使用她是不可想象的这一事实之外。 I mean, other than the fact that you say she's consecrated unto God, therefore, to use her in another way would be unthinkable.
但这并不能真正解决问题。 But that doesn't really cut it.
也许这只是我的现代思维方式，我看不出这有什么问题。 Maybe that's just kind of my, you know, modern mindset that I don't see the problem with that.
我认为有些人看待这个问题时会觉得你在贬低性行为。 I think some people look at that and they think it sounds like you're denigrating the sexual act.
是因为性是肮脏的，所以马利亚不会参与性行为吗？ Is it because sex is dirty that Mary wouldn't have engaged in sex?
问题是什么？ What's the what's the problem?
对。 Right.
是的。 Yes.
这涉及到一个关于独身的重要问题。 And this gets to a very important point with regard to celibacy.
事实上，在我的书中，我有一整章讨论这个问题。 In fact, in my book, I have a whole chapter on it.
它叫《大事》。 It's called The Big Deal.
为什么永恒童贞？ Why the perpet?
我这样做是因为这对我来说是一个大问题。 I did this because that was such a big issue with me.
我有一整章讨论这个问题。 I have a whole chapter on it.
大事，为什么马利亚的永恒童贞很重要。 The big deal, why the perpetual virginity of Mary matters.
这是它重要的一个巨大原因。 And here is a huge reason why it matters.
因为如果你否认，就像我们看到的神之母马利亚一样，如果你再次否认，否认是很容易的。 Because if you deny, just as we saw with Mary, the mother of God, if you deny once again, it's easy to deny.
但然后你必须建立一些东西。 But then you got to build something.
如果你否认马利亚是永恒童贞，那么你对婚姻有什么看法？ If you deny Mary is perpetual virgin, then what are you saying about marriage?
你对耶稣降生在这个世界上有什么看法？ What are you saying about Jesus being born into this world?
他真的是在婚外受孕的吗？ Was he really conceived out of wedlock?
我们真的想这么说吗？ Do we really want to say that?
许多新教徒确实这么说。 Many Protestants do.
事实上，不久前我在网上看到一个新教徒，他有一个非常热情的事工，贞洁事工。 In fact, I was online not long ago and and there was a Protestant who has a very passionate ministry, chastity ministry.
你知道，谈论我们如何不评判等等，因为，我的意思是，看看马利亚。 And, you know, talking about how we were not judgmental and such, because, I mean, look at Mary.
对。 Right.
她在婚外受孕。 She conceived out of wedlock.
实际上，她没有。 Well, actually, she did not.
事实是马利亚和约瑟。 The fact is Mary and Joseph.
我发现令人惊讶的是人们不知道这一点，马特。 And this is I find amazingly people just don't know this, Matt.
不仅是新教徒，许多我的天主教朋友也不知道马利亚和约瑟已经结婚了。 Not just Protestants, but many of my Catholic friends that Mary and Joseph were already married.
他们有我们称之为正式婚姻的关系。 They had what we would call a ratified union.
他们订婚了。 They were betrothed.
希腊文本说在天使传达信息之前。 The Greek text says right before the angel gave.
事实上，他被称为马利亚的未婚夫，或者马利亚在 天使传达她将成为神之母的信息之前已经订婚。 In fact, he's called betrothed to Mary or Mary is betrothed before the angel gives her the message that she is to be the mother of God.
现在，不幸的是，在一些现代圣经中，他们把它翻译成订婚。 Now, betrothed, unfortunately, in some of the modern Bibles, they translate it as engaged.
对。 Right.
2000年前没有订婚这种事。 There was no such thing as engaged 2000 years ago.
那时不存在这种事。 That did not exist.
那时有订婚。 There was betrothal.
在订婚时，男人有权进入婚床。 And at the betrothal, the man would have the right to the marriage bed.
但在古代以色列有一个传统，我发现我的许多兄弟和朋友都知道。 But there was a tradition in ancient Israel, which I find many of my brothers and friends right about.
但不要在这里做出这样的联系，即在订婚时，男人 的任务是离开并基本上为他的新娘建造一所房子。 But don't make the connection here that upon the betrothal, the man was tasked with going off and and basically building a house for his new bride.
他必须建好房子才能迎娶她。 And he could not receive her until he builds a house.
在古代以色列没有懒汉。 There were no dead beats in in ancient Israel.
你必须建造一所房子。 You had to build a house.
你找你的朋友。 You get your friends.
我敢打赌我会很惨。 I'll bet you I'd be screwed.
我会说不行。 I'd have been saying I'd be saying no.
是的，我会找很多朋友说，快点，因为我们完成之前我不能圆房。 Yeah, I'd get lots of friends and say, let's hurry this up, man, because I can't consummate until we get this thing done.
所以在建好房子之后。 And so it would be then after building the house.
顺便说一下，这是耶稣在约翰福音14:1-6中使用的语言。 And by the way, this is the language Jesus uses in John 14, one through six.
你们心里不要忧愁。 Let not your hearts be troubled.
你们信神。 You believe in God.
也当信我，在我父的家里。 Believe also in me and my father's house.
有许多住处。 There are many dwelling places.
我去是为你们预备地方去。 I go to prepare a place for you.
我若去为你们预备了地方，就必再来接你们到我那里去，我在那里，叫你们也在那里。 And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again to receive you unto myself that where I am there, you may be also language.
是的。 Yeah.
这是新郎的语言。 This is the language of the bride groom.
他要为新娘预备地方。 He's going to prepare a place for the bride.
然后他会在夜间来。 And then he would come during the night.
耶稣讲了十个童女的比喻。 And we have Jesus gives the parable of the of the ten.
是的。 Yeah.
那些没有准备好的愚拙童女。 Foolish virgins who are who are not prepared.
但这里的关键是她已经与约瑟有了婚姻关系。 But here the bottom line is she was already in a nuptial relationship with Joseph.
这使得这一点更加重要。 And this is what makes it all the more important.
当马利亚在路加福音第1章第34节中说，这事怎能成就呢？ When Mary says in Luke, chapter one, verse thirty four, how shall this be?
因为我不认识男人，你知道，圣埃皮法尼乌斯、圣亚他拿修、圣奥古斯丁，他们都这么说。 For I know not man that makes that, you know, saying Epiphanius, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, they all say it.
这个誓言没有意义。 The vow makes no sense.
或者我应该说，这个问题没有意义，除非你理解这个誓言。 Or I should say the question makes no sense unless you understand the vow.
她已经发了誓。 She had already made the vow.
约瑟像信心之父亚伯拉罕一样行走。 Joseph is walking like, you know, Abraham, the father of faith.
我要去哪里？ Where am I going?
这里发生了什么？ What's going on here?
好吧，好的。 OK, all right.
我要娶这个女孩，但我们不会有性行为。 I'm going to marry this girl and we're not going to have sex.
好吧，神，接下来是什么？ OK, God, what's next?
对。 Right.
所以这就是这里正在发生的事情。 So this is the midst of what's going on here.
约瑟发现了马利亚。 And Joseph discovers Mary.
我们都知道马太福音中的故事。 We all know the story in Matthew.
第一章是怀孕。 Chapter one is pregnant.
约瑟非常困扰。 And Joseph is greatly troubled.
但作为一个公义的人，圣经说他决定私下离婚，因为他当然不想让马利亚处于危险之中。 But being a just man, the Bible says he determined to Apollo side to divorce her privately because, of course, he didn't want Mary to be in danger.
他不想这样。 He didn't want to.
而且，我相信他内心深处会知道马利亚是多么圣洁。 And plus, I believe he would have known in his heart of hearts how holy Mary is.
他可能没有完全理解，但他知道有事情发生。 And he may not have had full comprehension, but he's going something's going on.
但我知道申命记24:1-4告诉我，我必须把她休掉。 But I know this Deuteronomy 24, one through four tells me I have to put her away.
这是法律规定的。 That is by law.
所以他这样做了。 And so he does it.
他悄悄地这样做，把她休了。 He does it quietly, puts her.
就在这时，天使来了，说，我希望你们注意，大家，跟我来。 And that's when the angel comes and says, and I want you to notice, folks, follow me on this.
在马太福音第1章第18节，这一切发生在他们同房之前，希 腊词是“soon Elphain”，意思是婚姻结合。 In Matthew, chapter one, verse 18, this all happens before they came together, which is the Greek word there is soon Elphain, which means to come together in a nuptial union.
但当天使来时说，约瑟，就在他准备离婚时，天使说，约瑟，不 要怕娶你的妻子马利亚，因为她所怀的孩子是由圣灵成孕的。 But then when the angel comes and says, Joseph, just when he is ready to divorce her, he says, Joseph, fear not to take Mary, your wife, for the child conceived in her is conceived of the Holy Spirit.
那时约瑟知道他可以娶马利亚。 That's when Joseph knew he could take Mary.
天使说你可以娶你的妻子马利亚。 And the angel says you can take Mary, your wife.
但当受启示的作者说你可以娶马利亚为妻时，他没有使 用“soon Elphain”来表示婚姻关系。 But when the inspired author says you can take Mary as your wife, he doesn't use soon Elphain to come together in a nuptial relationship.
他使用的是“paralambano”，意思是 字面上是并肩行走，接纳，和你的妻子一起走。 He uses paralambano, which means literally to walk beside, to receive alongside, to walk with your wife.
我相信，正如我在书中指出的，马特，这直接来自撒母耳记下第16章和第 21章。记得大卫的故事，他的儿子押沙龙试图从他父亲那里夺取王位。 And I believe, as I point out in my book, as you know, Matt, this comes right out of Second Samuel, chapter 16 and 21. Remember the story of David, whose son Absalom tried to take the throne from his father.
当他带走大卫的十个妻子时，政变发生了。 And the coup d'etat happens when he takes ten of David's brides.
现在，这对我们来说很奇怪，但这是一个部落文化。 Now, this is strange for us, but this is a tribal culture.
他已经有将军站在他这边。 He already had generals on his side.
他已经有人民站在他这边。 He already had the people on his side.
现在如果他能带走大卫的妻子，政变就完成了。 And now if he can take David's wives, the coup is complete.
这是对他父亲的终极羞辱。 It's the ultimate humiliation of his father.
他带走了十个妻子。 He takes the ten wives.
当然，他的政变失败了。 Of course, his coup fails.
他被美丽的长发挂在树上，这是一幅强有力的画面。 It's kind of a powerful image of him getting caught in that tree with his beautiful long hair.
他是一个英俊的男人，大卫为他的儿子押沙龙哭泣。 He was a handsome man, and David weeps for his son Absalom.
嗯，这是耶稣爱他的孩子们的美丽形象，但那是另一个话题，不是吗，马特？ Well, it's a beautiful image of Jesus loving his children, but that's another talk, isn't it, Matt?
但关键是，当押沙龙带走大卫的那十个妻子，十个妾时，押沙龙 死后，大卫立即派人——再次，这是在撒母耳记下16章和撒母 耳记下21章第3节——他派人把那十个妻子带到他的宫殿。 But the bottom line is, when Absalom took those ten wives of David, ten concubines, after Absalom died, David immediately sent – and again, this is in Second Samuel 16 and Second Samuel 21, verse 3 – he sends for those ten wives and has them brought to his palace.
她们来和他住在一起，但圣经在21章3节中说，她们被锁起来像寡妇一样。 And they come to live with him, but the Scripture says there in chapter 21, verse 3, they were locked up as in widowhood.
他不能与她们有夫妻关系。 He could not have conjugal relations with them.
为什么呢？ And why is that?
因为耶利米书第3章第1和2节，以及申命记第24章第1至4节告 诉我们，如果你有一个订婚的，无论是正式婚姻还是圆房的婚姻，女 人和别人走了，她永远不能回到她的前配偶那里，即使他死了。 Because Jeremiah chapter 3, verses 1 and 2, as well as Deuteronomy 24, verses 1 through 4, tells us that if you have a betrothed, whether it's a ratified union or a consummated union, and the woman goes with someone else, she can never come back to her former spouse, even if he dies.
再次强调，这不是新约神学。 Again, this is not New Testament theology.
这不是我们今天的婚姻神学。 This is not our theology of marriage today.
但这是旧约中的婚姻神学。 But this is the theology of marriage in the Old Testament.
在任何情况下，他都不能再娶她。 He could never take her back under any circumstances.
他再也不能与她有夫妻关系。 He could never have conjugal relations with her again.
为什么呢？ Why?
因为她属于另一个人。 Because she belongs to that other.
所以大卫所做的，他有责任照顾他的前妻们，因为记住在古代以色 列，作为一个女人，你不能只是出去找工作，照顾自己，对吧？ And so what David did, he had a responsibility to take care of his former wives, because remember in ancient Israel, you couldn't just go out as a woman, get a job, take care of yourself, right?
他有责任照顾她，但他再也不能与她有夫妻关系，因为她属于另一个人。 He had a responsibility to take care of her, but he could never have conjugal relations with her because she belongs to another.
同样，当天使说这个孩子是由圣灵成孕时，约瑟会知道，马特，我在 书中论证，马利亚，让我们这样说，圣灵不能签署人口普查文件。 In the same way, Joseph knew when the angel said, this child is conceived of the Holy Spirit, he would have known, Matt, I argue in my book, that Mary, let's put it this way, the Holy Spirit cannot sign census papers.
圣灵不能保护马利亚免受想知道那个孩子从哪里来的暴民的攻击。 The Holy Spirit cannot defend Mary against a mob that wants to know where that baby came from.
但约瑟有责任照顾马利亚。 But Joseph has a responsibility to take care of Mary.
因此，天使说，不要怕娶她，接纳她，成为她的保护者。 Thus, the angel says, fear not to take her, to receive her alongside, to be her protector.
但他当然不能有夫妻关系。 But he, of course, could never have conjugal relations.
事实上，如果你认为他有，那就与我们在旧约和 新约中所知道的关于奉献给神的一切相矛盾。 In fact, if you argue that he did, that is contradicting everything we know in the Old Testament and New Testament about that which is consecrated to God.
正如我之前所说，婚姻的性质，旧约，事实上在新约中也是 如此，因为我们在圣母马利亚中引入了圣事层面的婚姻。 As I said before, the nature of marriage, Old Testament, and in fact in the New Testament as well, because we have introduced in the Blessed Virgin Mary marriage on a sacramental level.
也就是说，她与圣灵结婚。 That is, she was married to the Holy Spirit.
她成为新约中婚姻的原型，甚至在羔羊与他的新娘教会的婚姻之前。 She becomes the prototype for marriage in the New Testament, even before the marriage of the lamb to his bride, the church.
所以，我说了这些，我知道我们在这里花了很多时间 ，但我说了这些，马特，还有很多我们可以说的。 And so, I say all this, and I know we're taking a lot of time here, but I say all this, Matt, and there's so much more we could say.
你必须从犹太和基督教的角度理解，这是教会教父们如此愤怒的原因之一。 You have to understand from a Jewish and a Christian perspective, this is one of the reasons why the fathers of the church were so angry.
当有人提出约瑟可能与马利亚发生性关系的可能性时，他们非常愤怒。 They were livid when anybody would posit even the possibility that Joseph could have sex with Mary.
这不是因为性是肮脏的，而是因为神圣的本质。 It's not because sex is dirty, but it's because of the nature of the sacred.
事实上，这是因为婚姻的神圣性。 In fact, it's because of the sacredness of marriage.
如果你说约瑟可以与她有夫妻关系，你就是在否 认婚姻的神圣性和马利亚奉献给圣灵的事实。 If you say Joseph could have conjugal relations with her, you are rejecting the sacred nature of marriage and the fact that Mary is consecrated to the Holy Spirit.
她成为了圣灵的新娘，当然，这是亚西西的圣方济各之后方济各会大力倡导的。 She becomes what, of course, the Franciscans championed greatly after St. Francis of Assisi, the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
哦，还有很多我们可以谈的。 Oh, and there's so much more we could talk about.
嗯，那很美。 Well, that's beautiful.
假设一个新教徒说，很好，神之母，没问题，永恒童贞，我可以接受。 Suppose a Protestant says, great, mother of God, fair enough, perpetual virginity, I can get on board with that.
我想谈谈无原罪成胎，但因为我们没有15个小 时，我想也许不要深入探讨圣经，相信与否。 I want to talk about the Immaculate Conception, but because we don't have 15 hours, I would like to maybe just not delve too deep into Scripture, believe it or not.
我知道忠实的新教徒和天主教徒可以在这些经文上来回争论。 I know faithful Protestants and Catholics can go back and forth on these verses.
也许我们可以谈谈这个，但我真的很感兴趣早期教会对此的看法是什么？ Maybe we can get to that, but I'm really interested in what do the early church believe about this?
我的意思是，如果你有像——嘿，你能转过来吗？ I mean, if you've got people as late as the – hey, are you able to turn that?
是的，我现在就去做。 Yeah, I'm going to do that now.
明白了。 Got it.
如果你有像托马斯·阿奎那这样的人——这个节目叫《与阿奎那共饮》。 If you've got people like Thomas Aquinas, who – this show is called Pints with Aquinas.
阿奎那显然相信马利亚是无罪的，但似乎否认了无原罪成胎。 Aquinas clearly believed that Mary was sinless, but seems to have denied the Immaculate Conception.
如果你有像13世纪的人否认它，因为他不知道如何调和——正确。 If you've got somebody like in the 13th century denying it because he doesn't know how to reconcile that with – Correct.
为什么我们应该接受这个？ Why should we accept this?
我明白当我们看早期教会时，我可以看到他们在洗礼重生上是一致的。 I get when we look at the early church, I can see that they're unanimous on baptismal regeneration.
我可以看到他们在圣餐上是一致的。 I can see that they're unanimous on the Eucharist.
那马利亚的无原罪成胎呢？ What about the Immaculate Conception of Mary?
教父们使用过这种语言吗？ Did the fathers use that language?
说所有最早的基督徒或大多数人教导这个，不是有点牵强吗？ Isn't it a bit of a stretch to say that all the earliest Christians or the majority of them taught this?
如果不是，那在哪里找到的？ If not, where is that found?
这是一个很好的问题，再次强调，非常重要的问题。 It's a great and, once again, very important question.
但我们发现的是，像三位一体一样，最早的教会教父们没有教导三位一体。 But what we find is, like the Trinity, the earliest fathers of the church do not teach on the Trinity.
事实上，第一次使用“三位一体”这个词是在公元181年，由安提 阿的圣西奥菲勒斯使用的，三位一体的教义将在几个世纪中发展。 In fact, the first time the word Trinity is used is in 181 A.D. by St. Theophilus of Antioch, and the Trinity would be developed over centuries.
但所有基督徒都承认这一点，对吧？ But all Christians acknowledge this, right?
是的。 Yep.
那么，当谈到无原罪成胎时，你所拥有的不是明确的，就像三位一体一样。 Well, when it comes to the Immaculate Conception, what you have is not an explicit, just as with the Trinity.
现在，你可以在圣伊格那修中看到基督的神性，你可以在圣 爱任纽中看到圣灵的神性等等，但你没有三位一体本身。 Now, you can see in St. Ignatius the divinity of Christ, you can see it in St. Irenaeus and the divinity of the Holy Spirit and such, but you don't have Trinity per se.
同样，我的朋友，你所拥有的是无原罪成胎的种子形式。 In the same way, my friend, what you have is the Immaculate Conception in seed form.
现在，正如我指出的那样，墨菲特斯写给戴奥格尼图斯的信 ，大约写于公元140年，谈到马利亚没有腐败，对吧？ Now, as far back as I point out, the letter of Mephetes to Diognetus, which is written roughly about 140 A.D., that talks about Mary being without corruption, right?
现在，有些人认为这是为了马利亚的永恒童贞，而我相信，正如我在书中指 出的，他谈到的腐败是像夏娃被腐败一样，她不是因为性而腐败，她被腐败 了……试图将这种观点插入墨菲特斯写给戴奥格尼图斯的书信中是错误的。 Now, some argue that for the perpetual virginity of Mary, and I believe, as I point out in my book, he's talking about corruption as in Eve was corrupted, she was not corrupted by sex, she was corrupted… And that's a false notion to try to insert that into the epistle of Mephetes to Diognetus.
但你也有从最早的著作中，马利亚被揭示为新的夏娃。 But you also have from, again, the very earliest writings, Mary revealed as the new Eve.
这对圣约翰·亨利·纽曼和他关于新夏娃的伟大文章来说是关键，这篇文章非常出色。 And this was the key for St. John Henry Newman and his great essay on the new Eve, which is phenomenal.
他真的带回了那种有点沉寂的预表论。 He really brought back typology that had kind of been somewhat dormant.
不是绝对的，但它没有他真正带来的那种受欢迎程度。 Not absolutely, but it didn't have the popularity that he really brought to it.
但他指出，你有马利亚作为新的夏娃，再次在墨菲特斯，公元14 0年。你有殉道者游斯丁，公元150年，在他的第一次护教中。 But he brings out that you have Mary as the new Eve, again, in Mephetes, 140 A.D. You have Justin Martyr, 150 A.D., in his first apology.
你有圣爱任纽以一种极其发达的方式。 You have St. Irenaeus in an extremely developed way.
圣爱任纽谈到，正如通过马利亚的不服从，死亡降临到她所有的孩子身上……哦，夏娃。 St. Irenaeus talks about how that, you know, just as through the disobedience of Mary, death came to all her children… Oh, Eve.
夏娃的不服从。 Disobedience of Eve.
哦，是的，对不起。 Oh, yes, I'm sorry.
主啊，原谅我。 Forgive me, Lord.
好的，是的，通过夏娃的不服从，死亡降临到她的孩子们身上。 Okay, yeah, through the disobedience of Eve, death came to her children.
通过马利亚的顺服，生命降临，你在那里真正地揭示了共救主的力量。 Through the obedience of Mary, life came, and there you have really co-redemptrix powerfully revealed.
但新的夏娃是教父们一致教导的，马特，一致的。 But new Eve is unanimously taught by the fathers, Matt, unanimously.
我可以列出清单，我在书中也这样做了，并声称直到你说出它的名字。 And I could go down the list, and I do in my book, and claim it till you name it.
好吧，如果马利亚确实是新的夏娃，这就变得显而易见了。 All right, well, if in fact Mary is the new Eve, this becomes a no-brainer.
你看到的，再次，我必须说，以种子形式，你知道，你有叙利亚的 圣以法莲在他的尼西比斯赞美诗中，第27首赞美诗……美丽。 What you see, again, now I have to say, in seed form, you know, you have St. Ephraim of Syria in his Nisibine hymns, hymn number 27… Beautiful.
……谈到马利亚和耶稣是没有污点的。 …talks about how, you know, Mary and Jesus are without stain.
我的意思是，这几乎是丑闻，把他们放在同等地位。 I mean, it's almost scandalous, putting them on a par.
这不是他在做的，但他是关于他们的无罪。 That's not what he's doing, but he is with regard to their sinlessness.
奥古斯丁在这个问题上也做了类似的事情，不是吗？ Augustine does something similar, doesn't he, when it comes to the issue?
是的，他做了。 Yes, he does.
他说，我想明确一点，当谈到马利亚时，在谈论罪时，那是他在处理伯拉纠派时。 He says, I want to make clear that when it comes to Mary, in talking about sin, that's when he was dealing with the Pelagians.
他说，当处理罪时，我想明确一点，我们不是在谈论马利亚， 因为她是一个独特的类别，因为罪在任何方面都没有触及她。 He says, when dealing with sin, I want to make clear, we're not talking about Mary, because she's in a category by herself, because sin in no wise touches her.
你有所有这些一致的例子。 You have all of these examples consistently.
然而，关于这与原罪的关系究竟如何运作，并没有完全掌握。 However, there was not a full grasp on exactly how this works in relation to original sin.
直到大约9世纪的拉德伯图斯·帕西乌斯。 It would not be until Radbertus Pacius in about the 9th century.
他将是第一个真正阐明威廉·沃尔后来会注意到的东西，然后是他 的弟子邓斯·司各脱在15世纪，真正阐明了保存性救赎的概念。 He would be the first that really hammers out what William of Ware would pick up on later, and then his disciple Duns Scotus in the 15th century, and would really hammer it out, the idea of a preservative salvation.
这成为了一个关键点。 And this becomes a key point here.
虽然所有教父都承认马利亚没有罪……我告诉你，在我的研究 中，马特，很多人认为理所当然，有些教父说马利亚有罪。 While all of the fathers acknowledge Mary's without sin… I'll tell you, in my research, Matt, a lot of folks take for granted, well, some fathers say Mary has sinned.
你找不到这样的说法。 You can't find it.
你找到的是轻微的过错和类似的事情，但在任何教父的口中找到罪是非常困难的。 What you find are venial faults and things like that, but it is very difficult to find sins on the lips of any church fathers.
他们都避开这个问题，这很不寻常。 It's extraordinary how they all stay away from.
而且当我实际研究那些被认为说过这话的教父时，他们并没 有。他们会说轻微的过错，但从不说罪，这是有原因的。 And some of the very fathers who are claimed to say it when I actually research them, they don't. They'll say venial faults, but they never say sin, and there's a reason for that.
即使在东方，她也被称为“全圣”，尽管神学还没有完全阐明。 Even in the East, she was referred to as panhagia, all holy, even though, again, the theology wasn't fully laid out.
但随着我们对原罪的理解的发展，出现了问题，因为，好吧，原罪在这里是如何运作的？ But with our developed understanding of original sin came problems because, OK, how does original sin work here?
当然，马利亚没有个人罪。 Granted, Mary has no sins as far as personal sins.
这是确定的。 That's a done deal.
正如路德维希·奥特在他的《天主教教义基础》中 指出的那样，在个人罪方面，教父们是一致的。 As Ludwig Ott in his Fundamentals of the Catholic Dogma points out, it's unanimous among the fathers when it comes to personal sin.
这是确定的。 That's a done deal.
原罪，在概念上是这样的。 Original sin, it was conceptually.
我们如何处理这个问题？ How do we deal with this?
因为如果你读托马斯·阿奎那的著作，顺便说一下， 当我在神学院时，马特，我实际上写了一篇论文。 Because if you read for St. Thomas Aquinas, and by the way, when I was in the seminary, Matt, I actually wrote a paper.
我试图为托马斯在无原罪成胎上的观点辩护。 I tried to defend Thomas on the Immaculate Conception.
我失败了。 I lost.
我们可以承认托马斯在某些事情上是错的。 We can admit that Thomas was wrong on things.
没关系。对的。 It's OK. That's right.
但托马斯无法理解的是，当你读《神学大全》时很明显，他说 无原罪成胎的概念没有意义，因为他认为只有两种可能性。 But what Thomas could not fathom, and it's obvious when you read the Summa on this, is he says the idea of an Immaculate Conception doesn't make sense because he argues there's only two possibilities.
她要么在受孕前被救赎，这是荒谬的，因为她还不存在。 She was either redeemed before her conception, which is absurd because she did not exist yet.
这是不可能的。 That's impossible.
或者在她受孕之后。 Or after her conception.
他甚至没有——他一定没有读过拉德伯图斯·帕西乌斯的著作， 后者在几百年前提出了这个观点，但它并没有真正获得支持。 He did not even have – he must not have read Radbertus Pacius, who did posit this a few hundred years before, but it didn't really gain ground.
在司各脱之前。 Before Scotus.
是的，在威廉·沃尔之前，他也教过司各脱。 Yes, before William of Ware, who taught Scotus as well.
但关键是。 But here's the bottom line.
当威廉·沃尔和他的弟子司各脱真正阐明这一点时，我们不是在说 ——教会不是在说——你不能说马利亚在她存在之前就被救赎了。 When William of Ware and then Scotus, his disciples, really hammers out this, we're not saying – the Church is not saying – you cannot say that Mary was redeemed before she existed.
那是荒谬的。 That's absurd.
但你也不必说她直到后来才被救赎。 But you also don't have to say that she wasn't redeemed until afterward.
为什么呢？ And why is that?
好吧，看看犹大书。 Well, look at the book of Jude.
在犹大书第25节，现在归于那能保守你们不失脚、使你们无 瑕疵、欢欢喜喜站在他荣耀之前的我们的主和救主耶稣基督。 In Jude, verse 25, Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling and preserve you blameless at the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
这就是保存性的救赎，那就是救赎。 There is preservative salvation, and that is salvation.
事实是，马特，你每天都在被神的恩典保守，免于陷入神知道的罪中。 The fact is, Matt, you are being kept from sins every day of your life by the grace of God that keeps you from falling into God only knows what.
相信我，如果不是神的恩典，他会的。 And trust me, he would if it wasn't for God's grace.
事实上，我们都会。 In fact, we all would.
这就是重点。 That's the point.
马利亚被保守了。 Mary was preserved.
因此，教宗圣庇护九世在1854年说，因基督的功德 ，马利亚因恩典的特殊特权被保守，免于原罪的污点。 Hence, Pope St. Pius IX in 1854 would say, By a singular privilege of grace in view of the merits of Christ, Mary was preserved free of the stain of original sin.
那么她得救了吗？ So was she saved?
绝对是。 Absolutely.
路加福音第1章第47节，我的灵以神我的救主为乐。 Luke chapter one, verse 47. My soul rejoices in God, my Savior.
她得救了，但她以更崇高的方式得救。 She was saved, but she was saved in a more sublime way.
正如邓斯·司各脱著名地说的那样，就像一个接近泥 坑或深泥坑的人，一个人掉进去，他必须被救出来。 As as Duns Scotus famously said, like the man who is approaching a mud puddle or a deep pit of mud who one falls in, he must be saved and lifted out of the pit.
但另一个人是通过防止开始的跌倒而得救的。 But another is saved by preventing the fall to start with.
事实上，后者是更完美的救赎。 In fact, the latter is the more perfect salvation.
那就是圣母马利亚。 And that's the blessed Virgin Mary.
我听到有人说，好吧，如果他能做到，如果神能为 马利亚做到，为什么他不能为我们所有人做到？ I've heard people say, well, if he can do that, if God can do that for Mary, why can't he just do that for all of us?
他当然可以。 He sure could.
好吧，说神能做什么是一回事，因为理论上你可以说神，神可以做到。 Well, it's one thing to say what what God could do, because theoretically you could say God, God could do that.
但有很多原因他没有做到。这涉及到一个伟大的奥秘。 But there are lots of reasons why he doesn't. And that gets into a great mystery.
但这当然是合理的。 But it certainly is reasonable.
最终，这让我们回到了邪恶的问题。 And ultimately, that gets us back to the problem of evil.
是的，总的来说。 Yeah, in general.
但这是一个很好的答案。 But that's a good answer.
我喜欢这个。 I like that.
是的，他可以。 Yeah, well, he can.
你不认为他能做到吗？ Don't you think he can?
你要争论他不能做到吗？ Are you going to argue he's he's incapable of doing that?
嗯，不。 Well, no.
好吧，这里有另一个反对意见。 OK, well, here's another objection.
我的意思是，你已经给出了一些理由。 I mean, you've kind of given a bit of a case.
我知道你在书中详细讨论了这个问题，每个人都需要去那里花更多的钱。 I know you go into it in much greater detail in your book, which everyone needs to go and get more money for that place.
但很多人会说，听着，我的意思是，这个无原罪成 胎的教义直到19世纪才由教宗庇护九世定义。 But a lot of people will say, listen, I mean, this this this dogma of the Immaculate Conception wasn't defined until the 19th century, but by Pope Pius the ninth.
对。 Right.
所以，拜托。 So come on.
我的意思是，这是天主教会在游戏后期发明的东西。 I mean, this is this is stuff that the Catholic Church is inventing really late in the game.
你对此有什么快速回应？ What do you what's your quick response to that?
对。 Right.
显然，当你看历史时，这不是教会在游戏后期发明的东西 ，因为你知道，我们有16世纪的特伦特会议在讨论。 Well, obviously, when you look at history, this isn't something the church invented late in the game because, you know, we have the Council of Trent in the 16th century talking about.
我认为这是关于原罪的第五次会议，特伦特会议在这方面说，我 们把马利亚放在一边，因为事实上，正如圣奥古斯丁在一千多年 前所说的那样，因为我们想明确表示这不适用于圣母马利亚。 And it's in it's I think it's session five on original sin where the Council of Trent says with regard to this, we're leaving Mary aside because in fact, just as St. Augustine said over a thousand years before that, because we want to make clear that this does not apply to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
看，人们必须理解的是，这是我为我的新教朋友使用的类比，马特。 See, what folks have to understand is here's the analogy I use, Matt, for my Protestant friends.
为什么教会直到公元382年才有圣经正典，甚至在普通层面上也是如此？我的意 思是，你有圣亚他拿修，他在367年有一个正典，但并不完全同意最终的正典。 Why did the church not have a canon of Scripture until even on the ordinary level until 382 A.D.? I mean, you have St. Athanasius who had a canon in 367 that did not entirely agree with what would be the final canon.
你知道，你有来自埃尔维拉的300年的正典。 You have, you know, canons from 300 from Elvira.
你有一些流传的正典。 You have canons floating around.
你有不同的教父在说类似的话，好吧，我们不看优西比乌。 You have different fathers of the church that were saying things like, well, we don't look at Eusebius.
我们可以概括一下，当优西比乌说启示录被许多 第二彼得、第二和第三约翰希伯来书拒绝时。 We could kind of synopsize when Eusebius says the book of Revelation is rejected by many second Peter, second and third John Hebrews.
这些是有问题的。 These were questionable.
为什么教会没有定义它？ Why didn't the church define it?
事实上，这是圣灵工作了几千年的方式。 Well, the fact is, this is the M.O. of the Holy Spirit working for thousands of years.
圣灵，马特，从未降临。 The Holy Spirit, Matt, has never come down.
让我们回到亚伯拉罕。 Let's go back to Abraham.
神有没有降临亚伯拉罕并说，亚伯拉罕，我是圣父、圣子和圣灵？ Did God come down to Abraham and say, Abraham, I am father, son and Holy Spirit?
不，这不是神的工作方式。 No, this is not the way God works.
作为基督徒，我们都知道这一点。 And we all know this as Christians.
当亚当和夏娃堕落时，为什么神不立即降临并向他们揭示一切并带他们回来？ When Adam and Eve fell, why didn't God just come in immediately and reveal everything to them and bring them back?
因为神爱自由。 Because God loves freedom.
他创造了我们，使我们自由。 He created us as free.
他允许我们离开。 He allows us to walk away.
他说，你走开，你将收获旋风。 He says, you walk away, you're going to reap the whirlwind.
但然后他逐渐开始播种，正如希伯来书第1章第1节 所说，神在古时借着众先知多次多方地晓谕列祖。 But then he gradually begins to plant seeds to, as Hebrews chapter one, verse one says, God, who through various and partial ways spoke through the prophets.
就在这末世借着他儿子晓谕我们。 Now, in these last days has spoken by a son.
注意他是如何在几千年中传达他的道。 Notice how he he speaks the word over thousands of years.
他逐渐传达他的道。 He speaks the word gradually.
然后，耶稣，我们有了完全的启示。 Then, Jesus, we have the fullness of the revelation.
但即便如此，我们花了两千年时间探究他所启示的深度。 But even there, we spend two thousand years plumbing the depth of what he revealed.
这就是神的方式。所以如果你要说，我不接受这个，因为教会花了太长时间。 And that's just God's M.O. And so if you're going to say, well, I'm not going to accept this because it took the church too long.
那么你将无法接受任何基督教教义。 Well, then you're not going to be able to accept any Christian doctrine.
是的，这是一个好观点，因为我们不是在谈论持续的启示。 Yeah, that's a good point, because we're not talking about ongoing revelation.
就像亚伯拉罕的时代，你知道，我们是开放的。 Like in the time of Abraham, you know, we're open to.
事实上，当时确实有持续的启示。 And in fact, there was ongoing revelation.
在最后一个使徒去世后，就没有了。所以你说的并不正确。 The death of the last apostle, there wasn't. So what you're saying isn't correct.
这是事后接受的，但这有点像是使徒们所接受的东西的展开。 This was received after the fact, but this is kind of the working out of what was received by the apostles.
耶稣对天国说了什么？ And what does Jesus say about the kingdom of heaven?
他说天国或地上的神的国度就像酵母。 He says the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God on Earth is like leaven.
它进入面团，然后发酵。 It gets into the lump and then it grows.
它像一粒芥菜种。 It's like a mustard seed.
它开始时非常小，然后变得巨大。 It starts really small and it becomes enormous.
假设一个来自仙女座星系的火星人或外星人来到这里，看着芥菜种和长成的植物。 Take a Martian or alien from the Andromeda galaxy comes here, looks at mustard seed and full grown plant.
那是从那来的。 That came from that.
对。 Right.
嗯，那就是教会。 Well, that's the church.
教会像芥菜种一样成长。 The church grows like the mustard seed.
这包括教义以及我们的崇拜形式等等。 And that includes doctrine as well as our forms of worship and so forth.
它被期望成长，因为圣灵带来生命和成长。 It is expected to grow because the Holy Spirit brings life and growth.
那是他所做的。 That's what he does.
好吧。 Okay.
现在，你提到了共救主，我想，之前提到过。 Now, you mentioned co-redemptrix, I think, earlier.
我想问你一个人们一直在谈论的可能的第五个马利亚教义。 I wanted to ask you about a possible fifth Marian dogma that people have been talking about.
这是关于马利亚作为中保的概念。 And this is the idea of Mary being mediatrix.
这几乎就像天主教徒有意吓唬他们的新教兄弟。 It's almost like Catholics are intent on scaring their Protestant brethren.
我们还能说什么能吓到他们？ What else can we say that could freak them out?
解释一下这对我们意味着什么，以及为什么我们不需要害怕它。 Explain what this means to us and why we don't need to be afraid of it.
是的，绝对是。 Yes, absolutely.
首先，中保，如果你去看《教会宪章》，教会的教 义宪章，会议的教父们实际上宣布马利亚为中保。 Well, first of all, mediatrix, if you go to Lumen Gentium, the dogmatic constitution on the church, the council fathers actually declared Mary to be mediatrix.
但在梵蒂冈第二次会议上，有一项动议要定义马利亚为共救主和万恩中保。 But there was a motion at Vatican II to define Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all grace.
教父们对万恩中保和共救主说不。 The father said no to the mediatrix of all graces and no to the co-redemptrix.
事实上，正如你所知，拉辛格枢机——我仍然称他为拉辛格枢机——荣休教宗 本笃十六世在他伟大的书《神与世界》中谈到他反对共救主定义的特定原因。 And, in fact, as you know, Cardinal Ra—I still call him Cardinal Ra—Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI in his great book, God and the World, talks about how he was opposed to the definition of co-redemptrix for a particular reason.
他认为这是语言的滥用，造成了太多的混淆。 He believed it was an abuse of language, causes way too much confusion.
但他说我们有其他圣母马利亚的称号，教导相同的神学，比如教会之母。 But he says that we have other titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary that teach the same theology, like Mother of the Church.
这是保禄六世所走的方向。 That's the direction Paul VI went in.
他定义马利亚为教会之母，现在我们刚刚有教宗方济各将其定为教会的节日。 He defined Mary as Mother of the Church, and now we just had Pope Francis make it a feast day in the church.
作为教会之母，当然，这与她作为共救主密切相关 ，因为你知道，所有的救赎都通过公教会而来。 As Mother of the Church, of course, that's integrally related to her as co-redemptrix, because, you know, all salvation comes through the Catholic Church.
除了通过马利亚的子宫，你不能到达洗礼的水。 You can't get to the baptismal waters except through the womb of Mary.
对不起，事实就是这样。 I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.
所以，现在，我恰好是——我会告诉你——我恰好是共救主有一天被定义的支持者。 So, now, I happen to be—I will tell you—I happen to be a fan of co-redemptrix one day being defined.
但作为——帮我个忙，对吧？ But as— Do me a favor, right?
我们有一个心态开放的天主教徒或福音派教徒对这种语言感到紧张。 We've got an open-minded Catholic or evangelical who's nervous of this language.
你能为我们总结一下吗？ Could you just, like, sum it up for us?
因为我知道这可能会变得非常复杂。 Because I know it can get very complicated.
你能以一种我们能理解的方式为我们总结一下吗，好吧， 这就是他们在说的，尽管这种语言听起来有点令人生畏？ Could you sum it up for us in a way that we're like, okay, that's what they're saying, even though this language can sound a bit daunting?
是的。 Yes.
我认为最好的方法是看哥林多前书第3章第9节。当圣保罗谈到他的使徒 事工时，他说，我们是与基督同工，希腊语是“sun ergoi”。 I think the best way to do that is go to 1 Corinthians 3, verse 9. When St. Paul is talking about his apostolic ministry, and he says, we are co-laborers with Christ, sun ergoi in Greek.
等一下！ Wait a minute!
你怎么能说你是同工呢？ How can you say you are a co-laborer?
好吧，他在第5节中告诉了你原因。他说，保罗算什么？ Well, he just told you why in verse 5. He says, what is Paul?
巴拿巴算什么？ What is Barnabas?
但你们信主是借着我们，他对哥林多人说。 But instruments by which you have come to believe, he's saying to the Corinthians.
然后接着说，因为我们是与基督同工的。 And then that moves into, for we are co-laborers with Christ.
这就是我们在谈论的。 That's what we're talking about.
这并不是说保罗与耶稣平等，不是的。 It's not meaning that Paul is equal to Jesus, no.
这意味着他与耶稣合作带来救赎，从这个意义上说，他是同工，而不是平等的意义上。 It means that he cooperates with Jesus in bringing salvation, and in that sense, he is a co-laborer, not in the sense of being an equal.
这就是人们被绊倒的地方。 And that's where people get tripped up.
顺便说一下，这也是本笃对共救主的一个问题，因为它引起了人们认为他们平等的混淆。 And by the way, that's one of the problems Benedict has with co-redemptrix, is the confusion it causes with people thinking they're equal.
我认为，只要教导他们。 I argue, just teach them.
有点像我们说的神之母。 Kind of like what we were saying with the mother of God.
在你陈述真相之后，澄清混淆。 Clear up the confusion after you state what's true.
绝对是，绝对是。 Absolutely, absolutely.
我指出本笃教宗的立场，因为我确实相信在可预见的未来我们不会有一个定义。 I point out Pope Benedict's position because I do believe we're not going to have a definition in the foreseeable future.
但人们必须理解，这已经是天主教神学。 But what people have to understand, it's already Catholic theology.
正如本笃自己所说，我们有其他与相同神学相关的形象。 It is what the Catholic, and as Benedict himself says, we have other images that relate the same theology.
她是共救主。 She is co-redemptrix.
事实上，我们都被召唤，这是一个重要部分，我们都被召唤与基督一起成为共救主。 In fact, we are all called, and this is an important part, we're all called to be co-redeemers with Christ.
如果你理解我们是与他同工的，我们被召唤带其他人到耶稣那里，对吧？ If you understand we are co-laborers with him, we're called to bring other people to Jesus, right?
正如我们这样做，我们可以和圣保罗一起说，例如，在哥林多 前书9:22中，他说，我向众人就作众人，务要救些人。 And as much as we do that, we can say with St. Paul, for example, in 1 Corinthians 9.22, he says, I've become all things to all men that by all means I might save some.
对吗？ Right?
保罗可以在提摩太前书4:16中对提摩太说，圣经怎么能更清楚呢？ Paul could say to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4.16, How could the Bible be any more plain?
我们被召唤与基督一起成为共救主，拯救我们自己的灵魂以及他人的灵魂。 We are called to be co-redeemers with Christ, saving our own souls as well as others.
再一个，我可以给你100个，但彼得前书3:22，彼得 说我们必须从一切污秽中洁净自己，在真理中洁净自己。 One more, I could give you 100, but 1 Peter 3.22, Peter says we must purify ourselves from all defilement, purify ourselves in the truth.
你怎么能洁净自己，伙计？ How can you purify yourself, man?
你是救主吗？ What are you, the Savior?
不，是通过与神的恩典合作。 No, it's by cooperating with God's grace.
好吧，再一个。 Well, just one more.
约翰一书1:7，这里有一个美丽的图像，说明成为共救主的意义。 1 John 1.7, here's a beautiful image of what it means to be a co-redeemer.
圣经说，所以注意，我们必须做一些事情。 Scripture says, So notice, we have to do something.
我们必须行在光中，如果我们这样做，耶稣的血就洁净我们。 We have to walk in the light and if we do, the blood of Jesus cleanses us.
那就是共救主，兄弟。 That's co-redemptrix, brother.
通过我们的合作，我们的罪被除去了。 By our cooperation, our sins are being taken away.
如果我们承认我们的罪，是的。 If we confess our sins, yes.
我非常喜欢这个。 I like that a lot.
所以就像腓立比、以弗所或罗马的基督徒可以说，如果不是保罗，我就不会成为基 督徒，整个历史上的基督徒群体可以说，如果不是马利亚，我就不会成为基督徒。 So just like a Christian at Philippi or Ephesus or Rome could say, if it weren't for Paul, I wouldn't be a Christian, the entire body of Christians throughout history can say, to an even greater degree, if it weren't for Mary, I wouldn't be a Christian.
哦，天哪。 Oh, my goodness.
我有一个观点，大家。 I got a point, folks.
在我关于无原罪成胎的部分中，我引用了，当你 读那篇讲道时，我给你一大段，它是美丽的。 In my section on the Immaculate Conception, I quote, When you read that homily, and I give you a good chunk of it, it is beautiful.
他基本上说的正是你所说的，通过马利亚的“是”，恶魔被驱逐，对吧？ He basically says exactly what you're saying, how that through the yes of Mary, demons are put to flight, right?
罪被消灭。 Sins are destroyed.
在以弗所会议上，马利亚作为共救主的名单上，美丽地宣告了。 And it goes down the list of Mary as co-redemptrix, right there at the Council of Ephesus, beautifully declared.
大家，真的，这只是基督教。 And, folks, really, this is just Christianity.
是的，这很有趣。 Yeah, it's funny.
有时我会听到人们说，你知道，在东方他们不像你们在西方那样谈论马利亚。 Sometimes I'll hear people say, you know, in the East they don't talk about Mary the way that you in the West do.
有这种发展。 There's been this kind of development.
但我的意思是，我已经去拜占庭教会五年了，我可以 告诉你，我的意思是，只要看看《马利亚赞词》。 But, I mean, I've been going to a Byzantine church for five years now, and I can tell you, I mean, just look at the Acathist to Mary.
你熟悉那个祷告吗，蒂姆？ Are you familiar with that prayer, Tim?
我熟悉，我熟悉。 I am, I am.
哦，宝贝，它太强大了，是吗？ Ooh, baby, it's so powerful, huh?
确实是，是的。 It really is, yes.
那是一个神话，因为我的意思是，我们的许多马利亚敬奉来自东方。 That is a myth because, I mean, much of the Marian devotion that we have comes from the East.
事实上，我会提醒人们，圣西里尔是在以弗所会议上的东方教父。 In fact, I would remind people that St. Cyril was an Eastern father at the Council of Ephesus.
你读那些话。 And you read those words.
我会挑战你。 I'll challenge you.
当你读我的书时，读无原罪成胎的那部分，你会看到的。 When you get my book, read that section in the Immaculate Conception, and you'll see it.
它太美了。 It's so beautiful.
你知道吗？ And you know what?
在这里，我之前说过，如果你在马利亚上错过了，你最终会错过神是谁，耶稣是谁。 Here, I said earlier that if you miss it on Mary, you end up missing it on who God is, on who Jesus is.
但你知道你还错过了什么吗？ But you know what else you miss?
你错过了你在耶稣基督里的身份。 You miss it on who you are in Jesus Christ.
因为马利亚不仅来向我们揭示神是谁，还来向我们揭示我 们是谁，她在她的“是”中如此美丽地做到了这一点。 Because Mary came not just to reveal who God is to us, but also to reveal who we are to us, and she does it so beautifully in her yes.
因为当她说“是”时，整个宇宙都改变了。 Because when she says yes, the entire universe is changed.
现在，马特·弗雷德和蒂姆·斯台普尔斯，我们没有被召唤 像马利亚那样作为宇宙的女王来合作改变整个宇宙，对吧？ Now, Matt Fred and Tim Staples, we're not called to cooperate in transforming the whole universe the way Mary is queen of the universe, right?
但我们被召唤改变我们的宇宙，我的生活，我的家 庭，我的妻子，我的孩子，以及我接触到的人。 But we are called to transform our universe, my life, my family, my wife, my kids, and those with whom I have contact.
所以在圣母马利亚中，我们看到了我们自己的尊严，也看到了我们责任的伟大本质。 And so in the Blessed Virgin Mary, we see our own dignity, and we also see the awesome nature of our responsibility.
是的，那很美。 Yeah, that's beautiful.
我最喜欢的《马利亚赞词》中的一个小片段是马利亚被称为恶魔的创伤。 One of my favorite little nuggets from the Akathist to Mary is where Mary is called trauma to the demons.
是的。 Yes.
我喜欢这个想法，她是一个他们仍未从中恢复的创伤事件。 I love the idea that she was a traumatic event that they still haven't recovered from.
我喜欢在西方的圣母马利亚祷文中，称她为异端的锤子。 And I love in the West the hammer of heretics in the litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
为什么？ Why?
因为，你知道，想想景教徒。 Because, you know, think about the Nestorians.
想想基督论的异端。 Think about the Christological heresies.
如果你在神之母上做对了，你是安全的。 If you get it right on Theotokos, you are safe and secure.
美丽。 Beautiful.
好吧，我们需要看的最后一个马利亚教义是马利亚升天。 All right, final Marian dog we need to look at is the assumption of Mary.
你会如何帮助某人理解马利亚升天？ How would you help someone come to understand the assumption of Mary?
这是什么意思？ What does it mean?
它在圣经中有记载吗？ Is it found in Scripture?
早期教会相信它吗？ Did the early church believe it?
哦，天哪。 Oh, my goodness.
是的。 Yeah.
嗯，你知道，这是一个我受到了我的天主教朋友极大帮助的， 他帮助我看到了圣母马利亚的一些古老形象，特别是约柜。 Well, you know, this was one that I was helped greatly by my Catholic friend in helping me to see some of the ancient imagery of the Blessed Virgin Mary, especially the Ark of the Covenant.
现在，约柜是你在圣亚他拿修中看到的东西。 Now, Ark of the Covenant is something you see it in St. Athanasius.
你看到它，甚至更早。 You see it or even early.
亚他拿修真的很美丽地发展了马利亚作为约柜的形象。 Athanasius really develops beautifully Mary as the Ark of the Covenant.
但当然，它在他之前很久就存在了。 But, of course, it was around long before him.
这对我有帮助的原因是。 And this was helpful to me for this reason.
我的天主教朋友告诉我，蒂姆，升天真的不那么难，因 为你去看启示录12:1，你知道我要说什么，马特。 My Catholic buddy shows me, Tim, the assumption is really not that tough because you go to Revelation 12, verse 1, and you know where I'm going, Matt.
这里有一个女人，头戴十二星的冠冕，脚踏月亮，身披太阳。 And here you have the woman clothed with the sun on her head, a crown of 12 stars, the moon under her feet.
第4和5节，她生了耶稣，这个要用铁杖辖管万国的男孩，引用了弥赛亚诗篇第2篇。 Verse 4 and 5, she gives birth to Jesus, the man-child who's to rule the nations with a rod of iron, quoting Psalm 2, the Messianic Psalm.
这显然是耶稣，谁生了耶稣，除了马利亚。 This is obviously Jesus, who gave birth to Jesus, but Mary.
当然，我的回应是，那不是马利亚。 And, of course, my response was, well, that's not Mary.
那是教会，或者是旧约的神的子民。 That's the Church, or it's the Old Testament people of God.
当然，天主教的回应是，是的，阿门。 And, of course, the Catholic response, yes, amen.
那是神的子民。 It is the people of God.
但正如本笃教宗所说，我在书中引用了他的话，文本的字面意思是什么？ But what is, as Pope Benedict, and I quote him in my book, says, what is the literal sense of the text?
大家，谁生了耶稣？ Folks, who gave birth to Jesus?
马利亚生了，好吗？ Mary did, all right?
现在，我们可以来回争论，好吧，那个女人是谁？ Now, we can fight back and forth on, okay, who is the woman?
我说是马利亚，你说不是。 I say it's Mary, you say it's not.
但对我来说，马特，不仅仅是那里。 But for me, Matt, it wasn't just there.
顺便说一下，对于升天，你知道，你显然有马利亚在那里被揭示，那个女人，身体在天堂。 And, by the way, for the assumption, you know, you clearly have Mary being revealed there, the woman, as being bodily in heaven.
我的意思是，把它与同一本书并列，启示录6:9，我们 看到殉道者在祭坛下在天堂被揭示，他们在说要多久。 I mean, juxtapose that with the same book, Revelation 6, verse 9, where we have the martyrs revealed in heaven under the altar, and they're saying how long.
它说的是殉道者的灵魂。 It says the souls of the martyrs.
但马利亚，同一本书，启示录，头，脚，对吧？ But Mary, same book, Revelation, head, feet, right?
显然她身体在天堂。 Clearly she is bodily in heaven.
但再次，我们与新教朋友来回争论。 But, again, back and forth we fight with our Protestant friends.
但我要告诉你点燃我的东西是倒退一节。 But I'm going to tell you the thing that lit me up was backing up one verse.
启示录11:19。这是让我震惊的一节。 Revelation 11, verse 19. This is the one that blew my mind.
因为约翰是什么，正如我们的许多听众所知，启示录是启示。 Because what is John, and as many of our listeners know, the book of Revelation is the apocalypsis.
这是约翰看到天堂，天上敬拜的揭示，以及我们如何被提 升，它被带到我们这里，我们正在体验那天上的敬拜。 This is John seeing heaven, the unveiling of the heavenly worship and how we are being lifted up, and it is being brought down to us, and we're experiencing that heavenly worship.
但在第11章第19节，当他看到天堂时，他看到天堂中的神的殿。 But in chapter 11, verse 19, as he is seeing heaven, he sees the temple of God in heaven.
现在，大家，神的殿是什么？ Now, folks, what is the temple of God?
我们从约翰自己的著作中知道。 We know from John's own writings.
这是写约翰福音的同一个约翰。 This is the same John who wrote the Gospel of John.
殿是什么？ What is the temple?
约翰福音2:21，或者如果你倒退到第19节，拆毁这殿，三天内我将它重建，对吧？ John 2, verse 21, or if you back up to verse 19, destroy this temple three days, I'll raise it up again, right?
第21节，他所说的殿是他的身体。 Verse 21, the temple he spoke of is his body.
启示录21:22，你有什么？ Revelation 21, 22, what do you have?
约翰看到天堂中没有殿。 John sees that there is no temple in heaven.
为什么？ Why?
因为殿是羔羊。 Because the temple is the Lamb.
是全能的神和羔羊。 It's Almighty God and the Lamb.
殿的可见部分是什么？ What is the visible component of the temple?
基督的身体。 The body of Christ.
正如他在约翰福音2:21中所说，拆毁这殿，三天内我将它重建。 Just as he said in John 2, 21, destroy this temple three days, I will raise it up.
殿是什么？ What is the temple?
他的身体。 His body.
好吧。 All right.
接着，我们看启示录11:19。所以约翰看到了殿。 With that, we go to Revelation 11, 19. So John sees the temple.
殿是什么？ What is the temple?
基督的身体。 The body of Christ.
那么，他在殿里看到了什么，除了约柜？ Well, what does he see in the temple but the Ark of the Covenant?
那么那是什么？ So what would that be?
哦，当我第一次意识到这一点时，你知道，马特，你去看路加福音1:43，当伊丽 莎白著名地体验到新约约柜的力量和存在时，马利亚走进房子，只是说，你好吗？ Oh, when that first hit me, as you know, Matt, you go to Luke chapter 1, verse 43, when Elizabeth famously experiences the power, the presence of the new covenant Ark, when Mary walks into the house and just says, How you doing?
她只需要这样做，整个天堂就爆发了。 That's all she had to do, and all heaven breaks loose.
当然，在圣灵的启示下，伊丽莎白惊呼，我主的母亲到我这里来，这是怎么回事呢？ And under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, of course, Elizabeth exclaims, Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
几乎逐字引用了撒母耳记下6:9，大卫在经历了旧约约柜的 强大显现时说，我主的约柜到我这里来，这是怎么回事呢？ Quoting almost verbatim 2 Samuel 6, 9, where David says when he experienced a powerful manifestation of the Old Testament Ark, Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come unto me?
马利亚是约柜，我的朋友们。 Mary is the Ark, my friends.
当约翰看到约柜时，他不是在看一个由出埃及记25章的皂荚木制成的、镀金的箱子。 When John sees the Ark, he is not looking at a box made out of acacia wood from Exodus 25, overlaying with gold.
他看到的是马利亚。 He is seeing Mary.
你猜怎么着？ And guess what?
不仅是马利亚，还有她的身体，因为那是承载羔羊的。 Not just Mary, but her body, because that is what carried the Lamb inside.
这就是为什么马利亚是约柜。 And that's why Mary is the Ark of the Covenant.
她在天堂。 She's in heaven.
所以在你甚至到达下一节关于女人的经文之前，你已经有了马利亚。 So before you even get to the next verse of the woman, you've already got Mary.
指出这一点，因为有些人不知道，章节和经文不是那样写的。 And point out to us, because some people don't know this, that chapters and verses, it wasn't written like that.
那是在中世纪加入的。 That was included in the Middle Ages.
斯科特·哈恩博士在他那本很棒的书《圣母万岁》中。 Dr. Scott Hahn in his awesome book, Hail Holy Queen.
这个人很聪明，但他美丽地指出，是的，圣经在基督 教时代的前近1000年里没有分成章节和经文等。 This man is brilliant, but he beautifully points that out, that yes, the Bible was not broken up into chapters and verses and such for the first almost 1,000 years of the Christian era.
嗯，部分是在1000年标记之前，然后新约大约在1000年标记左右。 Well, parts of it before 1,000-year mark and then the New Testament right around the 1,000-year mark.
那是一起的。 That was together.
现在通常章节和经文分得很好，但有时不是。 Now usually the chapters and verses are broken up pretty good, but sometimes they're not.
这是一个没有在好的地方分开的例子，因为这两节经文是绝对结合在一起的。 And that's an example of it really not being separated at a good point because those two verses are absolutely wedded together.
我得告诉你，马特，这就是约柜或升天对我来说的意义所在。 And I have to tell you, Matt, that's what did it for me on the Ark of the Covenant or on the assumption was the Ark of the Covenant.
我看到了这个。 I saw this.
哦，天哪，那是她的身体。 Oh my gosh, that's her body.
所以在下一节经文中，当然那是马利亚。 So then in the next verse, well, of course that's Mary.
现在我们的观众可以看到文本。 Right now our viewers can see the text.
我从第11章第19节开始，一直到第12章。所以他们在你解释时看到这个。 I have it started at verse 19, chapter 11, going down to chapter 12. So they're seeing this as you're explaining it.
这相当显著，特别是考虑到约柜在此之前已经丢失了多少年？ And it is quite remarkable, especially given the fact that the Ark of the Covenant had been lost for how many years prior to this?
是的，几百年。 Yes, hundreds of years.
这对犹太人来说非常重要。 And this was very important to the Jewish people.
确实是，是的。 It sure was, yeah.
我们最后听到它的消息是在旧约中的马加比书，然后它消失了。 The last we hear of it, right, in the Old Testament is in Maccabees, and it disappears.
所以至少100年。 So at least 100 years.
好吧，所以这就像至圣所？ Okay, so this is like the Holy of Holies?
那是我们称之为约柜的东西，还是我们会说约柜在至圣所内？ Is that what we would call the Ark, or would we say that the Ark was within the Holy of Holies?
约柜在里面。 The Ark was within.
好吧，但这是以色列带入战斗以确保胜利的东西。 Okay, but this is what Israel brought with them into battle to assure their victory.
正确。 Correct.
它使旷野中的会幕成为圣洁。 It's what made the tabernacle in the wilderness holy.
约柜在会幕里。 The Ark was in the tabernacle.
在所罗门后来建造的圣殿里，约柜在圣殿里。 And in the temple that Solomon built later, the Ark was in the temple.
所以如果你是一个一世纪的犹太读者，约翰说他找到了约柜，你的耳朵会竖起来。 So if you're a first-century Jewish reader and John says he's found the Ark, your ears pick up.
我得告诉你，伙计，我不知道我们有多少时间，但我在飞机上遇到一个同伴，他正在路上。 I've got to tell you, man, I don't know how much time we have, but I was on an airplane with a fellow who was on his way.
他是一个美好的福音派基督徒兄弟。 He was a wonderful evangelical brother in Christ.
我们进行了很好的对话。 We had a great conversation.
我们在头等舱，所以我们很舒服，我们聊了几个小时。 We were in first class, so we were comfortable, and we just talked for hours.
这个人正在前往一个挖掘地点，他们试图找到约柜。 This guy was on his way to an excavation where they're trying to find the Ark of the Covenant.
哦，天哪。 Oh, my goodness.
我几乎不忍心戳破他的泡沫，因为这个人涉及数 百万美元和挖掘，获得捐款和所有这些东西。 I almost hated to pop his bubble because this guy's involved in millions of dollars and excavations, getting donations and all this stuff.
但我向他解释，我向他阐明了马利亚是约柜的事实，作为天主 教徒，你知道，如果你找到了约柜，那将是一个不错的发现。 But I explained to him, I laid out to him the fact that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, and as Catholics, you know, if you found the Ark, that would be a nice find.
但那不是约柜。 But that's not the Ark.
那不是真正的约柜。 That's not the true Ark.
真正的约柜是圣母马利亚。 The true Ark is the Blessed Virgin Mary.
他目瞪口呆。 He was dumbfounded.
他说，我得告诉你，我以前从未听说过这个，我 不知道该怎么想，但你给了我一些思考的东西。 He said, I've got to tell you, I've never heard that before, and I don't know what to think, but you've given me something to think about.
那很有力量。 That is powerful.
蒂姆，你是圣母的一个了不起的代言人，我很高兴你存在并且在做你正在做的事情。 Tim, you are such a terrific spokesperson for the Blessed Mother, and I'm so glad that you exist and that you're doing what you're doing.
我要把你所有这些产品的链接放在下面，因为它们对我非常有帮助。 I'm going to put the links to all of these products of yours below because they have been tremendously helpful to me.
但请告诉我们的观众一些他们应该了解更多关于马利 亚的事情，因为信不信由你，你只是触及了表面。 But just tell our viewers a couple of the things they should get to learn more about Mary because, believe it or not, you've just scratched the surface.
绝对是。 Absolutely.
《看哪，你的母亲》，一本关于马利亚教义的圣经和历史辩护，是必须 得到的，因为在这里我不仅处理四大教义，你知道，神之母，无原罪成 胎，永恒童贞和升天，但我处理马利亚，共救主，中保，天地之王后。 Behold Your Mother, a Biblical and historical defense of the Marian doctrines, is a must-get because here I deal with not just the Big Four, you know, the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity and Assumption, but I deal with Mary, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Queen of Heaven and Earth.
你需要得到它。 You need to get it.
我会告诉你一个小花絮。 And I'll tell you a little tidbit.
你可能不知道，马特，但这本书原本更长。 You may not know this, Matt, but the book was originally longer.
惊喜！ Surprise!
它实际上更长。 It was actually longer.
我们最终在剪辑室，因为你知道，我们必须让人们实际购买这本书。 We ended up on the cutting room floor because, you know, we had to have people actually buy the book.
所以我写了另一本《20个关于马利亚的答案》，里面有很多没有写进书里的东西 ，但我处理了像向马利亚祈祷，玫瑰经，为什么我们做这些实践和类似的事情。 So I wrote another, 20 Answers Mary, that has a lot of the stuff that didn't get in the book, but I deal with things like praying to Mary, the rosary, why do we do practices and things like that.
所以我真的推荐，而且《20个关于马利亚的答案》只要几块钱，但我推荐你得到那些。 So I really recommend, and it's only a couple bucks for the 20 Answers Mary, but I recommend you get those.
它们真的密切相关。 They really go hand in hand.
如果你喜欢MP3下载，如果你喜欢听，好吧，我也有马利亚的套装，它们分为三部分。 And if you like MP3 downloads, if you like to listen, well, I also have the Mary sets, and they are in three parts.
我想我们有两个。 I think we have two.
我们给了你前两个，对吧？ We gave you the first two, right?
不，不是《所有世代》。 No, it's not All Generations.
不是《所有世代》。 It's not All Generations.
我现在在商店里看。 I'm looking right now on the store.
是的。 Yeah.
我在想圣约瑟通讯的旧套装。 I'm thinking of the older set at St. Joseph Communications.
你有《新夏娃》、《中保》和《母亲》吗？ You have New Eve, Mediatrix and Mother?
是的，那是其中之一。 Yeah, that's one of them.
然后，哦，这里还有几个。 And then, oh, here's a couple more.
你有《关于马利亚的福音真理》。 You have The Gospel Truth About Mary.
就是这个。 That's it.
然后是《关于马利亚的福音真理》第二卷，如果我没记 错的话，如果是CD形式的话，加起来有10张CD。 And then The Gospel Truth About Mary, Volume 2, which I think adds up, if it were in CD form, to 10 CDs, if I'm not mistaken.
是的，是的，就是这个。 Yes, yes, that's it.
所以《关于马利亚的福音真理》。 So The Gospel Truth About Mary.
我多年前为特里·巴伯做过一个叫《所有世代都要称我有福》的，这一直在我脑海中。 I had done one for Terry Barber years ago called All Generations, I'll Call Me Blessed, and that was stuck in my head.
但如果你喜欢听，如果你得到那三套，你就有大约16小时的圣母马利亚的教导。 But if you like to listen, if you get those three sets, you've got about 16 hours of teaching on The Blessed Virgin Mary.
哦，伙计，荣耀归于神。 Oh, man, glory to God.
嗯，我希望每个人都去买它们，那太好了。 Well, I want everyone to go out and buy them, and that's great.
这是shop.catholic.com。 It's shop.catholic.com.
你不必买CD。它们都有MP3版本，所以你可以下载它们，在通勤或其他时候听。 You don't have to buy the CDs. They all have MP3 versions available, so you can just download them and listen to them on your commute or whatever.
那太棒了。 So that's fantastic.
蒂姆，非常感谢你和我们在一起。 Tim, thank you so much for being with us.
太好了。 Great.
马特，随时，兄弟。 Matt, anytime, brother.
保持联系。 Stay in touch.
再见。 See you.
好吧，非常感谢你观看这一集我和蒂姆·斯台普尔斯聊天关于圣母的精彩节目。 Okay, thank you very much for watching this fantastic episode of me and Tim Staples chatting about the Blessed Mother.
正如我在开始时承诺的那样，将有一个仅限赞助者的节目后总结部分，我们 讨论蒂姆认为最可信的显现以及他对梅杜戈耶的原始和未经过滤的想法。 As I promised in the beginning, there's going to be a post-show wrap-up segment for patrons only where we discuss Tim's, you know, what apparitions he finds most credible and his raw and unfiltered thoughts on Medjugorje.
如果你想访问那个，你只需要成为一个赞助者，你可能无论如 何都应该这样做，对吧，因为我们发布了很多很棒的东西。 If you want access to that, you just have to become a patron, which you should probably do anyway, right, because we're putting out a lot of great stuff.
我们在做很多很棒的工作，这一切都需要花钱。 We're doing a lot of great work, and it all costs money.
所以只需访问patreon.com。 So just come to patreon.com.
看看我给你的所有免费东西作为回报。 See all the free stuff I give you in return.
你将可以访问我和新教徒卡梅伦·贝图齐之间的每月辩论。 You'll get access to monthly debates between me and Protestant Cameron Bertuzzi.
你将获得一本我签名的书。 You'll get a signed copy of my book.
你会收到邮寄给你的贴纸。 You'll get stickers sent to you in the mail.
你会收到我的视频反思。 You'll get video reflections from me.
你将可以访问我们正在做的不同课程。 You'll get access to different courses that we're doing.
我们即将开设一门关于《奥古斯丁忏悔录》的课程，只 有你可以访问，你还可以访问这些节目后的总结视频。 We're about to do a course on Augustine's Confessions, which only you will have access to, and you'll also get access to these post-show wrap-up videos.
所以去看看，patreon.com。 So check it out, patreon.com.com.com.com.com.
每月加入5美元，10美元，看看你得到的所有免费东西，我们真的很感激。 Join for $5 a month, $10 a month, and see all the free stuff you get in return, and we would really appreciate it.
非常感谢。 Thanks so much.
再见。 See ya.