- start: 14.621
  end: 21.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm not going to review their bios, which you have in your folders.
  zh: 我不打算复述他们的简历，你们手中的文件夹里已经有了。
- start: 21.283
  end: 28.145
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, it's obvious they are distinguished scholars, and we are really honored to have them with us today.
  zh: 我的意思是，很明显他们都是杰出的学者，我们今天能有他们在场真是深感荣幸。
- start: 28.145
  end: 31.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think I'll just add a little personal note.
  zh: 我想我只是要加一点个人的看法。
- start: 34.467
  end: 42.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I was privileged to get to know Professor Papandrea as we prepared for this class.
  zh: 在准备这门课程的过程中，我有幸认识了帕潘德里亚教授。
- start: 42.296
  end: 51.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: My experience, and I do know a lot of wonderful scholars, and they're gifted and smart people, but they're not always the best teachers.
  zh: 根据我的经验，我确实认识很多优秀的学者，他们都是有天赋的聪明人，但他们并不总是最好的老师。
- start: 52.881
  end: 68.03
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Jim is a scholar and a teacher, and it is really delightful to have gotten to know him and to have been taught by him so far up to this point, and I'm really looking forward to his presentation.
  zh: 吉姆既是学者又是老师，能认识他并到目前为止一直受教于他真是令人愉快，我非常期待他的演讲。
- start: 68.03
  end: 71.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I know you're going to be very pleased.
  zh: 我知道你们一定会很满意的。
- start: 76.334
  end: 79.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I saw in my vision a man.
  zh: 我在异象中看见一个人。
- start: 80.706
  end: 88.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Riding a white bronco, he rode near the sea in a shining city of angels.
  zh: 他骑着一匹白色野马，在天使之城的海边骑行。
- start: 90.295
  end: 99.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Following him was a great multitude, riding mustangs and pallets, flashing black and white, red and blue.
  zh: 跟随他的是一大群人，骑着野马和托盘，闪烁着黑白红蓝的光芒。
- start: 100.785
  end: 106.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And no one knew who would be worthy to open the paper and read the verdict.
  zh: 没有人知道谁配展开那纸张并宣读判决。
- start: 109.187
  end: 112.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Anyone want to interpret that for me?
  zh: 有人想为我解释一下吗？
- start: 112.128
  end: 115.189
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What am I talking about?
  zh: 我在说什么？
- start: 115.189
  end: 119.31
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yes, the OJ trial, right?
  zh: 是的，OJ辛普森审判，对吧？
- start: 120.451
  end: 130.194
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: If you heard that 2,000 years from now, would you know that was about the OJ Simpson trial and that same low speed chase?
  zh: 如果你在2000年后听到这段话，你会知道这是关于OJ辛普森审判和那场低速追逐吗？
- start: 130.194
  end: 135.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No, you probably wouldn't. And that's a point.
  zh: 不，你可能不会知道。这就是重点所在。
- start: 137.368
  end: 139.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Uh, as you heard, I'm Jim Patterson.
  zh: 呃，正如你们所听到的，我是吉姆·帕特森。
- start: 139.25
  end: 140.771
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Thanks for having me here.
  zh: 感谢邀请我来这里。
- start: 140.771
  end: 144.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's a great honor to be here and I'm really happy to be a part of this.
  zh: 能来到这里是一种莫大的荣幸，我真的很高兴能参与其中。
- start: 144.714
  end: 153.12
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And those of you who know me know that I'm serious when I say it because I put on a tie today and I almost never do that.
  zh: 那些了解我的人都知道，我说这话是认真的，因为我今天戴了领带，而我几乎从不这样做。
- start: 153.16
  end: 158.084
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so this is my honor to be a part of this day.
  zh: 所以，能成为今天活动的一部分是我的荣幸。
- start: 158.304
  end: 162.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm here to do three things this morning.
  zh: 今天上午我要做三件事。
- start: 162.466
  end: 171.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: First, I'm going to put the book of Revelation in its historical context for you.
  zh: 首先，我要为你们把启示录放在其历史背景中。
- start: 171.791
  end: 184.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Then I'm going to dispel some of the myths about what the book of Revelation is really about.
  zh: 然后，我要澄清一些关于启示录真正内容的误解。
- start: 188.507
  end: 195.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And then finally, I want to point out the core message of Revelation and why it's still relevant today.
  zh: 最后，我想指出启示录的核心信息，以及为什么它在今天仍然具有相关性。
- start: 195.515
  end: 199.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So let's start with the historical context for the book of Revelation.
  zh: 那么，让我们从启示录的历史背景开始。
- start: 199.619
  end: 208.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, there is some scholarly debate over the authorship and date of any biblical text,  And you can look those things up in any commentary.
  zh: 现在，对于任何圣经文本的作者和日期都存在一些学术争议，你可以在任何注释书中查阅这些内容。
- start: 209.246
  end: 219.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But speaking as a Church historian, I'm convinced that this document was, in fact, written by John the Apostle on the Isle of Pass.
  zh: 但作为一个教会历史学家，我确信这份文献实际上是使徒约翰在拔摩岛上所写的。
- start: 219.231
  end: 224.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It was written during the reign of the Emperor Domitian, who briefly persecuted the Church.
  zh: 它是在短暂迫害教会的多米田皇帝统治期间写成的。
- start: 224.893
  end: 241.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And because this persecution was brief, we can date the Book of Revelation to the year 95 CE.  And, in fact, it really is one of the few books in the New Testament that we can date that precisely.
  zh: 由于这次迫害时间很短，我们可以将启示录的写作时间确定为公元95年。事实上，它确实是新约中少数几本我们能如此精确确定日期的书之一。
- start: 242.582
  end: 258.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, if you lived in the eastern part of the Empire, in 95 CE, and if you had a coin in your pocket, they didn't have a coin in their pocket, okay, so you had a coin in your pocket, you took that coin out of your pocket, you took that coin out and you looked at it, whose image would you see on it?
  zh: 事实上，如果你在公元95年生活在帝国东部，如果你口袋里有一枚硬币，他们口袋里没有硬币，好吧，所以你口袋里有一枚硬币，你从口袋里拿出那枚硬币，你拿出那枚硬币看了看，你会看到谁的肖像？
- start: 258.913
  end: 261.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, of course, the Emperor, Domitian.
  zh: 当然是皇帝多米田。
- start: 262.08
  end: 268.942
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And around the image you could read the names and imperial titles of the emperor Domitian.
  zh: 在肖像周围，你可以读到多米田皇帝的名字和帝国头衔。
- start: 269.002
  end: 274.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They would be there in Greek characters, and they'd be abbreviated because the coins were small and you can't fit all that in a coin.
  zh: 这些会用希腊字母写着，而且会被缩写，因为硬币很小，无法容纳所有内容。
- start: 275.063
  end: 290.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But if you took those Greek letters in those abbreviations for Domitian's name and title, and if you converted the Greek letters into numbers, which anyone could have done, and if you added them all up, anyone would want to guess what it would add up to?
  zh: 但如果你把那些缩写中多米田名字和头衔的希腊字母转换成数字，这是任何人都能做到的，然后把它们全加起来，有人想猜猜加起来是多少吗？
- start: 291.4
  end: 294.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's correct, 666. What a surprise.
  zh: 没错，是666。真是令人惊讶。
- start: 294.002
  end: 310.905
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, when you read in the book of Revelation about a number that corresponds to a man's name,  It was the man himself, the emperor at the time, not some prediction of future man.
  zh: 所以，当你在启示录中读到一个与人名相对应的数字时，它指的就是那个人本身，当时的皇帝，而不是对未来某个人的预言。
- start: 310.905
  end: 322.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Of course, you've probably read all the different theories about the 566, and I've seen everything from Ronald Reagan to Adolf Hitler and everybody in between, but it's really omitted.
  zh: 当然，你可能已经读过关于666的各种不同理论，我看过从罗纳德·里根到阿道夫·希特勒以及其间的所有人，但这些都是被忽略的。
- start: 322.933
  end: 332.74
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The truth is, if you work hard enough, you can make almost any name at 566. You can make almost anybody fit, depending on who your engine is.
  zh: 事实是，如果你足够努力，你几乎可以让任何名字等于666。你几乎可以让任何人符合，这取决于你的计算方法。
- start: 334.801
  end: 337.822
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was the emperor at the time, Domitian.
  zh: 它指的是当时的皇帝多米田。
- start: 338.202
  end: 346.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And Domitian was in some way sort of the seat of the imperial claims to divine titles.
  zh: 多米田在某种程度上是帝国宣称神圣头衔的中心。
- start: 346.965
  end: 355.507
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because in the Roman Empire, after a great man, someone who was considered a great man, after he died, the Senate would proclaim him a god.
  zh: 因为在罗马帝国，一个被认为是伟人的人死后，元老院会宣布他为神。
- start: 356.56
  end: 366.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And if you're the successor, if you're the son by adoption of the last emperor, who is now in the kingdom of God, does that make you a son of a God?
  zh: 如果你是继承人，如果你是上一任皇帝的养子，而他现在在神的国度里，那么这是否使你成为神的儿子？
- start: 367.345
  end: 380.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, when we read in the New Testament that Jesus is the Son of God, Catholic theology,  It means, among other things, Jesus and not that dying Rome.
  zh: 所以，当我们在新约中读到耶稣是神的儿子时，公教会神学认为，这意味着，除其他外，是耶稣而不是那个垂死的罗马。
- start: 380.376
  end: 390.299
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when we read about the Kingdom of God, which could easily be translated the Empire of God, it means God and not that dying Rome.
  zh: 当我们读到神的国度时，这很容易被翻译为神的帝国，它意味着神，而不是那个垂死的罗马。
- start: 390.959
  end: 408.923
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when Thomas met the risen Christ and says, My Lord and my God, in Latin, Domus et Deus,  That's exactly the title that the Emperor Domitius demanded everyone call him, Domus Aetatus.
  zh: 当多马遇见复活的基督并说「我的主，我的神」时，用拉丁语说「Domus et Deus」，这正是皇帝多米田要求每个人称呼他的头衔，「Domus Aetatus」。
- start: 409.724
  end: 415.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, the book of Revelation was written in the context of a persecuted church.
  zh: 因此，启示录是在教会受迫害的背景下写成的。
- start: 416.031
  end: 428.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, the persecution of Christianity by the Roman Emperor, going back to the year 64 CE, when the Emperor Nero, looking for a scapegoat,  Needed someone to blame for the fire in Rome.
  zh: 罗马皇帝对基督教的迫害可以追溯到公元64年，当时尼禄皇帝在寻找替罪羊，需要有人为罗马的大火负责。
- start: 428.878
  end: 430.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It was a big fire in the city.
  zh: 那是城市里的一场大火。
- start: 430.079
  end: 432.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Rome leveled a major chunk of the city.
  zh: 罗马的一大片区域被夷为平地。
- start: 432.78
  end: 433.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's been to Rome.
  zh: 它已经到过罗马。
- start: 433.68
  end: 435.961
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a part of the Colosseum now.
  zh: 现在它是斗兽场的一部分。
- start: 435.961
  end: 443.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the rumors started that Nero himself had set the fire.
  zh: 谣言开始流传，说是尼禄自己放的火。
- start: 443.505
  end: 453.609
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, coincidentally or not, he had planned on his death to build a new palace, which was going to go right in the spot that was leveled by the fire.
  zh: 我是说，不管是巧合还是什么，他原本计划在死后建造一座新宫殿，而这座宫殿正好要建在被火烧平的地方。
- start: 454.009
  end: 459.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, you can imagine how people started to talk that he had set the fire to clear the land.
  zh: 所以，你可以想象人们是如何开始谈论他放火清理土地的。
- start: 459.312
  end: 471.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He needed someone else to blame, and so he chose what he saw as a new and suspect and suspicious and possibly dangerous sect called Christianity.
  zh: 他需要找人背黑锅，所以他选择了他眼中新兴的、可疑的、可能危险的教派——基督教。
- start: 471.539
  end: 474.02
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't even called Christianity yet.
  zh: 当时甚至还没有被称为基督教。
- start: 474.02
  end: 475.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's how new it was.
  zh: 它就是这么新。
- start: 477.286
  end: 488.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that set a precedent so that by the year 95, there's enough precedent in the Roman Empire that a Christian leader like John could be arrested simply for spreading the Jews.
  zh: 但这开创了一个先例，以至于到了95年，罗马帝国已经有足够的先例，像约翰这样的基督教领袖仅仅因为传播犹太人的信仰就可能被逮捕。
- start: 488.493
  end: 495.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And he could be exiled to an island prison off the coast of what is now a church called Patmos.
  zh: 他可能被流放到现在被称为拔摩岛的一个海岛监狱。
- start: 495.998
  end: 501.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The point here is that this document is the product of a persecuted church.
  zh: 这里的要点是，这份文献是受迫害教会的产物。
- start: 501.468
  end: 508.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And John functions as a kind of bishop, writing a letter to his districtal areas.
  zh: 约翰扮演着一种主教的角色，给他所管辖的地区写信。
- start: 509.211
  end: 515.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And his primary reason for writing this letter is to tell them not to give up the faith.
  zh: 他写这封信的主要原因是告诉他们不要放弃信仰。
- start: 516.013
  end: 521.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Don't give in to the persecution and deny the faith, even to save your own life.
  zh: 不要屈服于迫害而否认信仰，即使是为了保全自己的生命。
- start: 522.595
  end: 534.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, the book of Revelation is basically an extended sermon on Jesus' own word in the Gospel,  Whoever endures to the end will be saved.
  zh: 因此，启示录基本上是对耶稣在福音书中自己的话的延伸讲道，「忍耐到底的必然得救」。
- start: 534.994
  end: 536.695
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's Matthew.
  zh: 这是马太福音中的话。
- start: 536.695
  end: 541.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jesus said that in chapter 10 and chapter 24. Whoever endures to the end will be saved.
  zh: 耶稣在第10章和第24章中说过这话。忍耐到底的必然得救。
- start: 541.819
  end: 552.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, there's a double meaning there, because on one level it means whoever endures to the end of the persecution, but another level means whoever endures to the end of their life.
  zh: 这里有双重含义，因为在一个层面上，它意味着忍耐到迫害结束的人，但在另一个层面上，它意味着忍耐到生命终结的人。
- start: 553.496
  end: 568.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, I'm not saying that the book of Revelation is not the product of an ecstatic vision that John the Apostle had, perfectly willing to believe that John really did have a vision.
  zh: 现在，我并不是说启示录不是使徒约翰所经历的灵魂超拔异象的产物，我完全愿意相信约翰确实有过异象。
- start: 576.699
  end: 599.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But whether the text of Revelation and the symbolism in the book of Revelation is the product of a person who's had an exact vision, trying to describe the indescribable, or whether it's simply a carefully crafted recycling and reusing of symbols from the Old Testament, or some combination of the two, the end result is the same.
  zh: 但无论启示录的文本和其中的象征是一个经历过确切异象的人试图描述不可描述之事的产物，还是对旧约中符号的精心重新利用和再使用，或是两者的某种结合，最终结果都是一样的。
- start: 599.264
  end: 606.106
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The symbols are familiar to John and to his audience, and his audience wouldn't know how to interpret them.
  zh: 这些符号对约翰和他的受众来说都很熟悉，他的受众会知道如何解释它们。
- start: 607.112
  end: 615.239
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, just because the symbols come from the Old Testament does not mean that they mean the same thing in the book of Revelation that they do in the Old Testament.
  zh: 现在，仅仅因为这些符号来自旧约，并不意味着它们在启示录中的含义与在旧约中的含义相同。
- start: 615.239
  end: 626.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: These symbols come from the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah primarily, and it is not necessary to first interpret those books in order to interpret Revelation.
  zh: 这些符号主要来自以西结书、但以理书和撒迦利亚书，但为了解释启示录，并不需要先解释这些书。
- start: 626.548
  end: 632.353
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The symbols, the images, come from the Old Testament, but they're used in a different way, and they mean something different.
  zh: 这些符号和图像来自旧约，但它们以不同的方式被使用，意味着不同的事物。
- start: 632.633
  end: 640.18
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The obvious example of this is that when you read about Babylon in the book of Revelation, you're not really reading about Babylon, are you?
  zh: 一个明显的例子是，当你在启示录中读到巴比伦时，你实际上并不是在读关于巴比伦的内容，对吧？
- start: 640.18
  end: 642.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're reading about Rome.
  zh: 你读的是关于罗马的内容。
- start: 642.883
  end: 650.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The oppressive, colonizing empire of John's time was Rome.
  zh: 约翰时代的压迫性殖民帝国是罗马。
- start: 651.232
  end: 653.733
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the numbers, of course, are simple, too.
  zh: 当然，数字也很简单。
- start: 653.774
  end: 655.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so even the numbers are translated.
  zh: 所以甚至数字也被转译了。
- start: 655.955
  end: 662.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: As I always say, numbers in the Bible almost always have a significance beyond their numerical value.
  zh: 正如我常说的，圣经中的数字几乎总是具有超越其数值的意义。
- start: 662.418
  end: 670.082
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There are a few cases in Revelation where the numbers actually mean, literally, the numerical value of something.
  zh: 在启示录中有几处数字确实字面上表示某物的数值。
- start: 670.082
  end: 673.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But most of the time, the numbers are also combined.
  zh: 但大多数时候，这些数字也是组合在一起的。
- start: 673.534
  end: 678.237
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, okay, I don't have time this morning to go through all the symbols and terms before you.
  zh: 好吧，今天早上我没有时间详细解释你们面前的所有符号和术语。
- start: 678.237
  end: 681.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I do add in my quote the wedding of the Lamb.
  zh: 我确实在我的引用中加入了羔羊的婚礼。
- start: 682.219
  end: 688.843
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the good news is that we don't need to interpret the Old Testament first in order to understand the Revelation.
  zh: 但好消息是，我们不需要先解释旧约就能理解启示录。
- start: 688.983
  end: 705.561
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: What we do need to do is sort of understand that the symbols and the images come from the Old Testament,  And we need to understand also that the genre of the book of Revelation is something that comes from the world of the Old Testament.
  zh: 我们需要做的是理解这些符号和图像来自旧约，我们还需要理解启示录的文体是来自旧约世界的东西。
- start: 705.561
  end: 707.282
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We call it Revelations.
  zh: 我们称之为启示录。
- start: 707.282
  end: 710.524
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: By the way, it's Revelations, not Revelations.
  zh: 顺便说一下，是启示录，不是启示录们。
- start: 710.524
  end: 713.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I just want to clear that up, right?
  zh: 我只是想澄清这一点，对吧？
- start: 713.745
  end: 714.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's Revelations.
  zh: 是启示录。
- start: 714.766
  end: 719.568
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's simply our English word for Greek word Apocalypse.
  zh: 这只是我们用来翻译希腊词「启示」的英语词。
- start: 719.948
  end: 723.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In Greek, the original title would be the Apocalypse.
  zh: 在希腊语中，原始标题应该是「启示」。
- start: 726.251
  end: 734.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We use the word Apocalypse in our popular thinking to mean something about the end of the world, but it really doesn't mean that.
  zh: 在我们的通俗理解中，我们用「启示」这个词来指世界末日之类的事，但它实际上并不是这个意思。
- start: 734.897
  end: 738.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The word Apocalypse simply means that which is being revealed.
  zh: 「启示」这个词简单地意味着正在被揭示的事物。
- start: 739.4
  end: 745.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so the book of Revelation is that which is being revealed, right?
  zh: 所以启示录就是正在被揭示的内容，对吧？
- start: 745.804
  end: 754.71
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And what is being revealed is the Kingdom of God, or, if you will, the Empire of God, over against the one that comes out of Rome.
  zh: 而正在被揭示的是神的国度，或者说，如果你愿意，是神的帝国，与那来自罗马的帝国相对。
- start: 755.442
  end: 763.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the book is written in a style or a genre that comes to be named after apocalyptic.
  zh: 但这本书是以一种后来被称为启示文学的风格或体裁写成的。
- start: 763.766
  end: 773.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And apocalyptic is a kind of variation of prophecy that does include images of cataclysmic events.
  zh: 启示文学是预言的一种变体，确实包含灾难性事件的图像。
- start: 774.398
  end: 777.7
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Though they are not always about the so-called end of the world.
  zh: 尽管它们并不总是关于所谓的世界末日。
- start: 777.7
  end: 779.722
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They're not always eschatological.
  zh: 它们并不总是末世论的。
- start: 779.722
  end: 780.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know that, right?
  zh: 你知道这一点，对吧？
- start: 780.683
  end: 784.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Eschatology about the end, the end time, the ultimate goal of things.
  zh: 末世论是关于终结、末世、事物的最终目标。
- start: 784.705
  end: 790.309
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Sometimes apocalyptic is also eschatological, sometimes it's not.
  zh: 有时启示文学也是末世论的，有时则不是。
- start: 790.309
  end: 802.582
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Sometimes it's just warnings that, you know,  Stuff is going to happen, and it's going to be earth-shattering stuff, but it isn't necessarily about the end of the world.
  zh: 有时它只是警告，你知道，一些事情将要发生，而且会是震撼世界的事情，但不一定是关于世界末日的。
- start: 803.384
  end: 810.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, I would say that the prophecy itself isn't really about telling the future anyway, like some sort of brief order.
  zh: 事实上，我会说预言本身并不真的是关于预测未来的，就像某种简短的命令。
- start: 811.313
  end: 814.756
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Prophecy is primarily bringing a message from God.
  zh: 预言主要是传递来自神的信息。
- start: 815.297
  end: 824.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And by the way, in the history of the Church, the office of prophet in the Church evolves into the preacher.
  zh: 顺便说一下，在教会历史中，教会中先知的职分演变成了传道人。
- start: 824.945
  end: 825.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Right?
  zh: 对吧？
- start: 825.785
  end: 829.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so the prophet is the one who brings the message from God.
  zh: 所以先知就是那个带来神信息的人。
- start: 830.009
  end: 839.896
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now again, sometimes that message, especially in apocalyptic literature, sometimes that message contains warnings or promises about the future.
  zh: 再次强调，有时这个信息，尤其是在启示文学中，有时这个信息包含关于未来的警告或承诺。
- start: 840.522
  end: 844.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the message is not for people in the future.
  zh: 但这信息不是给未来的人的。
- start: 844.564
  end: 847.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The message is for the people of that time.
  zh: 这信息是给当时的人的。
- start: 847.805
  end: 859.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so even apocalyptic prophecy, even when it contains warnings of cataclysmic events in the future, the message is not for people in the future to decode something to figure out what's going on.
  zh: 所以即使是启示性的预言，即使它包含对未来灾难性事件的警告，这信息也不是给未来的人解码以弄清楚发生了什么。
- start: 859.211
  end: 860.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's not.
  zh: 并非如此。
- start: 860.711
  end: 866.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's about giving warnings and promises for the benefits of the people at the time the document was written.
  zh: 它是为了给文献写作时代的人提供警告和承诺，使他们受益。
- start: 867.82
  end: 873.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so I can't say this emphatically enough, the book of Revelation was not written for Jews.
  zh: 所以我再怎么强调也不为过，启示录不是为犹太人写的。
- start: 874.704
  end: 877.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't written for me, it wasn't written for us.
  zh: 它不是为我写的，不是为我们写的。
- start: 877.566
  end: 883.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It was written for the people in the late first century, whoever had the years to hear.
  zh: 它是为一世纪末的人写的，为那些有耳可听的人。
- start: 883.31
  end: 893.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't have a message for us, because I believe it does have a message for us, and I believe it is still relevant, but it wasn't originally written for us.
  zh: 现在，这并不意味着它对我们没有信息，因为我相信它确实对我们有信息，我相信它仍然具有相关性，但它最初并不是为我们写的。
- start: 893.976
  end: 901.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So what I want to do now is start with a clean slate,  And get rid of some of the misconceptions about the book of Revelation.
  zh: 所以我现在想做的是从头开始，消除一些关于启示录的误解。
- start: 902.299
  end: 915.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And, you know, you've probably already known that this is perhaps the book of the Bible that has more varying interpretations and is more hotly debated than any other.
  zh: 你知道，你可能已经知道这可能是圣经中有最多不同解释和争议最大的一卷书。
- start: 915.168
  end: 921.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, you know, you go ahead and assume that by giving me my interpretation.
  zh: 所以，你知道，你可以继续假设我给出的是我的解释。
- start: 921.533
  end: 929.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But,  Revelation is not about future worldwide government persecuting Christianity.
  zh: 但是，启示录并不是关于未来的世界政府迫害基督教。
- start: 930.636
  end: 935.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It is about a worldwide government persecuting Christianity, but in the past.
  zh: 它是关于一个世界性政府迫害基督教，但是在过去。
- start: 935.643
  end: 938.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that worldwide government is called the Roman Empire.
  zh: 而那个世界性政府就是罗马帝国。
- start: 939.026
  end: 947.728
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And okay, yes, it wasn't really worldwide by our understanding, but back in the day, for the great people involved, it was the world.
  zh: 好吧，是的，按我们的理解它并不是真正的全世界，但在当时，对于那些相关的重要人物来说，它就是整个世界。
- start: 948.029
  end: 954.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it was us against the world from the perspective of the Christian church.
  zh: 从基督教会的角度来看，这是我们对抗整个世界。
- start: 954.97
  end: 960.272
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the point is that Revelation is not a doomsday document about the future.
  zh: 但重点是，启示录不是一份关于未来末日的文件。
- start: 961.216
  end: 969.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not a code to be deciphered at some later date, when the people who were alive at the time of the rite were no longer here.
  zh: 它不是在某个以后的日期，当仪式时代的人已经不在时才能破译的密码。
- start: 969.6
  end: 972.881
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not a puzzle to be figured out.
  zh: 它不是一个需要解开的谜题。
- start: 973.723
  end: 980.646
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Revelation was a message of hope for a persecuted church at the time it was written.
  zh: 启示录在写作时是给受迫害教会的一个希望信息。
- start: 980.646
  end: 982.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The message was for the people at that time.
  zh: 这信息是给当时的人的。
- start: 982.927
  end: 986.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, there are predictive elements in the book of Revelation.
  zh: 现在，启示录中确实有预言性的元素。
- start: 986.488
  end: 989.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For example, John predicts the fall of the Roman Empire.
  zh: 例如，约翰预言了罗马帝国的衰落。
- start: 989.81
  end: 991.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in that sense, it's perfect.
  zh: 所以，从这个意义上说，它是完美的。
- start: 991.29
  end: 992.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It contains a warning.
  zh: 它包含一个警告。
- start: 992.871
  end: 994.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Hey, Romans!
  zh: 嘿，罗马人！
- start: 994.591
  end: 998.333
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not that they would have read it, but you're going to get what's coming to you.
  zh: 虽然他们不会读它，但你们将得到应得的报应。
- start: 999.435
  end: 1004.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But you're going to get what's coming to you from God, not from us.
  zh: 但你们将从神那里得到报应，而不是从我们这里。
- start: 1004.056
  end: 1005.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We're not going to do it.
  zh: 我们不会这么做。
- start: 1005.297
  end: 1008.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that's going to be the point.
  zh: 这就是重点。
- start: 1008.398
  end: 1016.44
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, yeah, there are some predictive elements in the book of Revelation, but it's really not a doomsday document for people of the future.
  zh: 所以，是的，启示录中确实有一些预言性的元素，但它真的不是为未来的人准备的末日文件。
- start: 1017.22
  end: 1024.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The fall of the Roman Empire is not going to come by God's people taking up arms against the enemy.
  zh: 罗马帝国的衰落不会通过神的子民拿起武器对抗敌人而实现。
- start: 1024.162
  end: 1027.905
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, Jesus had that chance during his earthly life of ministry, right?
  zh: 我的意思是，耶稣在他地上的事工生涯中有那个机会，对吧？
- start: 1027.905
  end: 1030.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And he chose to be a Catholicist instead.
  zh: 但他选择成为一个公教会信徒。
- start: 1030.547
  end: 1042.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in fact, some people were very disappointed in Jesus that he wasn't a military messiah, that he didn't become a general and raise an army and try to fight for independence from Rome.
  zh: 事实上，一些人对耶稣感到非常失望，因为他不是一个军事弥赛亚，他没有成为将军并组建军队试图为脱离罗马而战。
- start: 1042.217
  end: 1045.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That wasn't his calling.
  zh: 那不是他的使命。
- start: 1046.64
  end: 1054.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, the fall of the Roman Empire in the time of John  It wasn't going to come that way either.
  zh: 所以，在约翰的时代，罗马帝国的衰落也不会以那种方式到来。
- start: 1054.372
  end: 1059.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It wasn't going to come by God's people taking up arms, but only by divine intervention.
  zh: 它不会通过神的子民拿起武器而来，而只会通过神的干预。
- start: 1059.535
  end: 1062.577
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because vengeance belongs to God alone.
  zh: 因为复仇只属于神。
- start: 1063.257
  end: 1067.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when we take vengeance upon ourselves, we are playing God.
  zh: 当我们自己复仇时，我们就是在扮演神。
- start: 1067.98
  end: 1074.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, the book of Revelation, not a code to be cracked by people 2,000 years later.
  zh: 所以，启示录不是2000年后的人要破解的密码。
- start: 1074.465
  end: 1078.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's written in symbols that the people of that time would have understood.
  zh: 它是用当时的人能理解的符号写成的。
- start: 1078.883
  end: 1082.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it's also not primarily about events in our time.
  zh: 它也主要不是关于我们这个时代的事件。
- start: 1082.646
  end: 1091.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, a large portion of the book of Revelation is actually about something that happened 25 years before it was written, the fall of Jerusalem.
  zh: 事实上，启示录的很大一部分实际上是关于它写作前25年发生的事情，耶路撒冷的陷落。
- start: 1091.993
  end: 1097.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: You probably know that in the year 70 CE, the Romans laid siege to the city of Jerusalem.
  zh: 你可能知道，在公元70年，罗马人围攻了耶路撒冷城。
- start: 1097.218
  end: 1101.48
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: This was at the end of a war that lasted three and a half years.
  zh: 这是一场持续了三年半的战争的结束。
- start: 1102.36
  end: 1116.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this war between the Jews and the Romans, the Jews had rebelled, and the Romans finally came in to put the rebellion down, and when they finally came to Jerusalem,  They lay feast to the city of Jerusalem.
  zh: 在这场犹太人和罗马人之间的战争中，犹太人起义了，罗马人最终前来镇压叛乱，当他们最终来到耶路撒冷时，他们围攻了耶路撒冷城。
- start: 1116.139
  end: 1117.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you know what it means to lay feast to a city.
  zh: 你知道围攻一座城市意味着什么。
- start: 1117.92
  end: 1120.961
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You surround the city, forcing everybody in.
  zh: 你包围这座城市，迫使所有人进入城内。
- start: 1120.961
  end: 1124.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They close up, lock the doors, and then you wake up.
  zh: 他们关闭城门，锁上门，然后你醒来。
- start: 1124.823
  end: 1127.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And they starve, and run out of clean water.
  zh: 他们挨饿，用完了干净的水。
- start: 1127.645
  end: 1129.646
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what happens?
  zh: 然后会发生什么？
- start: 1129.686
  end: 1136.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There is famine, disease, and plague.
  zh: 会有饥荒、疾病和瘟疫。
- start: 1136.769
  end: 1143.973
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this event is depicted in the book of Revelation as the swarm of locusts from hell.
  zh: 这个事件在启示录中被描绘成来自地狱的蝗虫群。
- start: 1144.581
  end: 1150.587
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And if you read the text, you read the description of the locusts, they are wearing armor.
  zh: 如果你读这段文字，你会读到对蝗虫的描述，它们穿着盔甲。
- start: 1150.808
  end: 1155.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And if you think about the broken soldiers and what they would have looked like, that's what's being described.
  zh: 如果你想象那些残破的士兵会是什么样子，那就是正在被描述的。
- start: 1155.594
  end: 1162.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the locusts are said to be able to torment, but not kill, for five months.
  zh: 据说这些蝗虫能折磨人五个月，但不能杀死人。
- start: 1162.982
  end: 1165.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Guess how long the siege of Jerusalem lasted?
  zh: 猜猜耶路撒冷被围攻持续了多长时间？
- start: 1167.269
  end: 1174.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So that's what that's about, about the seizure through Jerusalem.
  zh: 所以这就是它的内容，关于耶路撒冷被占领。
- start: 1174.212
  end: 1179.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so after that five months, the city fell, the temple was destroyed.
  zh: 五个月后，城市陷落，圣殿被毁。
- start: 1179.275
  end: 1182.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The temple in Jerusalem was leveled up.
  zh: 耶路撒冷的圣殿被夷为平地。
- start: 1182.576
  end: 1186.038
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The parts of it that could burn were burned to the ground, the rest were knocked over.
  zh: 能烧的部分被烧成平地，剩下的部分被推倒。
- start: 1186.498
  end: 1201.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And this was content that was so earth-shatteringly cataclysmic in the minds of the people who lived there that to them it was the end of the world if they knew it.
  zh: 这在当地人的心中是如此震撼和灾难性的事件，对他们来说，如果他们知道的话，这就是世界末日。
- start: 1201.525
  end: 1209.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: This was, if you allow the analogy, their 9-11. This was the thing they thought could never happen.
  zh: 如果允许这样比喻的话，这就是他们的「9·11」。这是他们认为永远不会发生的事情。
- start: 1209.348
  end: 1215.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The invasion that rocked them at their very core because it came to the center of their life.
  zh: 这次入侵动摇了他们的核心，因为它冲击到了他们生活的中心。
- start: 1216.669
  end: 1227.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it shook the very foundation of their faith and robbed them of any feeling of security that they had come to enjoy from the Pax Romana.
  zh: 它动摇了他们信仰的根基，剥夺了他们从罗马和平中享受到的任何安全感。
- start: 1228.812
  end: 1231.533
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it was the end of the world, as they knew.
  zh: 对他们来说，这就是他们所知的世界末日。
- start: 1232.914
  end: 1239.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that event is still fresh in the collective mind of John's audience when he writes Revelation.
  zh: 所以当约翰写启示录时，这个事件在他的读者的集体记忆中仍然鲜活。
- start: 1239.375
  end: 1242.076
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He knows 25 years, and it's gone by.
  zh: 他知道25年已经过去了。
- start: 1243.44
  end: 1248.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: And when John writes the book of Revelation, the persecution is escalating.
  zh: 当约翰写启示录时，迫害正在升级。
- start: 1248.384
  end: 1249.764
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: It's getting worse.
  zh: 情况正在变得更糟。
- start: 1249.945
  end: 1267.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: And so, thinking back to this event in their mind causes fear, anxiety, anger, despair, and the very real possibility of giving up the faith to save their lives.
  zh: 因此，回想起这个事件会在他们心中引起恐惧、焦虑、愤怒、绝望，以及为了保全生命而放弃信仰的非常真实的可能性。
- start: 1268.264
  end: 1274.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in fact, John is saying in the book of Revelation, folks, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
  zh: 事实上，约翰在启示录中说，各位，情况会在好转之前变得更糟。
- start: 1275.332
  end: 1277.474
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And historically, he was right.
  zh: 从历史上看，他是对的。
- start: 1277.474
  end: 1278.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He did.
  zh: 确实如此。
- start: 1278.395
  end: 1288.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The persecution got progressively worse through the second and especially the third century, into the beginning of the fourth century, when we see the so-called Great Persecution.
  zh: 迫害在第二世纪，尤其是第三世纪逐渐加剧，直到第四世纪初，我们看到了所谓的大迫害。
- start: 1289.406
  end: 1291.628
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But then the persecution ended.
  zh: 但随后迫害结束了。
- start: 1293.155
  end: 1304.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And as I interpret the so-called millennium in the book of Revelation, which, by the way, there are so much data that I hate in the millennium, it's like half a verse in the whole book of Revelation.
  zh: 我对启示录中所谓的千禧年的解释是，顺便说一下，千禧年中有很多我不喜欢的数据，它在整本启示录中只有半节经文。
- start: 1304.229
  end: 1312.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But as I interpret the concept of the millennium, it's simply John looking ahead to a time when persecution is over.
  zh: 但根据我对千禧年概念的解释，它只是约翰展望迫害结束的时期。
- start: 1312.459
  end: 1314.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Someday the persecution will end.
  zh: 总有一天迫害会结束。
- start: 1315.2
  end: 1328.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in fact, again, historically, you know, not to glorify Constantine or anything, but historically, the persecution ended, and the Church converted the Empire, didn't it?
  zh: 事实上，再次从历史角度来看，你知道，不是要美化君士坦丁或什么的，但从历史上看，迫害结束了，教会改变了帝国，不是吗？
- start: 1328.665
  end: 1341.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing is a debate for another day, but the point is that this future time of glory, a time when Christ will reign on the earth, might live in it.
  zh: 所以，无论你认为这是好事还是坏事，那是另一天要辩论的问题，但重点是这个未来的荣耀时期，基督将在地上统治的时期，可能会在其中生活。
- start: 1342.132
  end: 1345.433
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: For better or for worse.
  zh: 无论是好是坏。
- start: 1345.433
  end: 1348.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So the millennium begins when the persecution ends.
  zh: 所以千禧年始于迫害结束的时候。
- start: 1348.054
  end: 1349.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's that simple.
  zh: 就是这么简单。
- start: 1349.555
  end: 1358.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the point for us is that we need not to look for the events of Revelation to be fulfilled in our time.
  zh: 对我们来说，重点是我们不需要寻找启示录中的事件在我们的时代实现。
- start: 1358.658
  end: 1364.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We must not read the book of Revelation with the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other.
  zh: 我们不应该一手拿着圣经，一手拿着报纸来阅读启示录。
- start: 1365.62
  end: 1368.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is not the signs of the times.
  zh: 它不是时代的征兆。
- start: 1368.181
  end: 1370.882
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is the signs of an entirely different time.
  zh: 它是完全不同时代的征兆。
- start: 1372.453
  end: 1374.475
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And here's another misconception.
  zh: 这里还有另一个误解。
- start: 1377.939
  end: 1383.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: As I mentioned, Revelation is not about humans fighting in the name of God.
  zh: 正如我提到的，启示录不是关于人类以神的名义战斗。
- start: 1384.245
  end: 1388.468
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now don't get me wrong, there is a battle in the book of Revelation.
  zh: 现在别误会我的意思，启示录中确实有一场战斗。
- start: 1388.468
  end: 1392.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's a battle between good and evil, between God and evil.
  zh: 这是善与恶之间的战斗，是神与邪恶之间的战斗。
- start: 1393.13
  end: 1394.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's a spiritual battle.
  zh: 这是一场属灵的战斗。
- start: 1394.951
  end: 1397.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's not about people fighting for God.
  zh: 它不是关于人为神而战。
- start: 1397.993
  end: 1400.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's about God fighting for evil.
  zh: 它是关于神与邪恶作战。
- start: 1400.575
  end: 1401.755
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: God fights for us.
  zh: 神为我们而战。
- start: 1401.755
  end: 1403.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We don't fight for God.
  zh: 我们不为神而战。
- start: 1403.356
  end: 1405.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: God fights against the forces of evil.
  zh: 神与邪恶势力作战。
- start: 1406.987
  end: 1412.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And God is on our side, but only as long as we remain on the side of God.
  zh: 神站在我们这边，但只有当我们继续站在神这边时才是如此。
- start: 1412.81
  end: 1436.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Remember, this is based on the Old Testament, and there is an ongoing message in the Old Testament, even with all the violence in the Old Testament, and even when the violence is justified as being somehow the will of God in the Old Testament, the message is still, look people, if you walk away from God, don't blame God when He's not with you anymore.
  zh: 记住，这是基于旧约的，旧约中有一个持续的信息，即使旧约中有所有的暴力，即使暴力被某种程度上解释为神的旨意，信息仍然是：看，人们，如果你们离开神，当祂不再与你们同在时，不要责怪神。
- start: 1437.585
  end: 1444.712
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There are times when God doesn't fight on the side of people because they are no longer on the side of God.
  zh: 有时神不站在人这边，因为他们不再站在神这边。
- start: 1444.712
  end: 1449.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: God is on our side only if we remain on the side of God.
  zh: 只有当我们继续站在神这边时，神才站在我们这边。
- start: 1449.897
  end: 1453.18
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's not for us to fight for God.
  zh: 我们不是要为神而战。
- start: 1453.18
  end: 1454.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: God fights for us.
  zh: 神为我们而战。
- start: 1454.721
  end: 1457.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's a spiritual battle, not a literal battle.
  zh: 这是一场属灵的战斗，而不是字面意义上的战斗。
- start: 1458.164
  end: 1464.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Every time you see warfare in the book of Revelation, John is looking into the spiritual realm.
  zh: 每当你在启示录中看到战争时，约翰都是在观察属灵领域。
- start: 1464.269
  end: 1468.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: These wars are not happening on planet Earth.
  zh: 这些战争并不是发生在地球上。
- start: 1469.394
  end: 1473.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now again, if you want more of the interpretation, I'll just read my quote.
  zh: 再次说明，如果你想要更多的解释，我就读一下我的引用。
- start: 1473.517
  end: 1475.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Shame it was commercial.
  zh: 可惜它是商业性的。
- start: 1476.439
  end: 1478.861
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that's the point here.
  zh: 但这就是这里的重点。
- start: 1479.062
  end: 1484.306
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The point is that we don't fight for God, God fights for us.
  zh: 重点是我们不为神而战，神为我们而战。
- start: 1485.683
  end: 1490.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so what is, then, the message of Revelation?
  zh: 好的，那么启示录的信息是什么呢？
- start: 1490.967
  end: 1493.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And how is it relevant today?
  zh: 它在今天如何相关？
- start: 1493.689
  end: 1501.694
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because I'm convinced that Revelation is neither a doomsday document, nor is it irrelevant.
  zh: 因为我确信启示录既不是末日文件，也不是无关紧要的。
- start: 1501.694
  end: 1504.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's also not irrelevant.
  zh: 它也不是无关紧要的。
- start: 1505.097
  end: 1510.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is ultimately a timeless message, a message of hope.
  zh: 它最终是一个永恒的信息，一个希望的信息。
- start: 1511.021
  end: 1515.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a message of hope, but one that advises patience.
  zh: 这是一个希望的信息，但它建议要有耐心。
- start: 1517.543
  end: 1547.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To whatever extent the millennium is the reign of Christ, to whatever extent the Church more or less successfully brings the reign of Christ to the earth or participates in the reign of Christ on the earth, it is that the love and compassion and mercy and forgiveness of Christ are being made to reign in the world through the people of Christ, the Church.
  zh: 无论千禧年在多大程度上是基督的统治，无论教会在多大程度上或多或少成功地将基督的统治带到地上或参与基督在地上的统治，都是通过基督的子民，即教会，使基督的爱、怜悯、慈悲和宽恕在世界上统治。
- start: 1548.326
  end: 1552.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What did the angels say when Jesus was born?
  zh: 当耶稣诞生时天使说了什么？
- start: 1552.589
  end: 1554.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Peace on earth.
  zh: 地上平安。
- start: 1554.29
  end: 1556.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is God's will.
  zh: 这是神的旨意。
- start: 1557.192
  end: 1565.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, to put it in John's terms, evil is weakest where the church is strongest.
  zh: 所以，用约翰的话说，教会最强大的地方，邪恶就最弱。
- start: 1567.948
  end: 1574.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is what he means by the restriction of the devil, the binding of the devil.
  zh: 这就是他所说的魔鬼的限制，魔鬼的捆绑。
- start: 1574.894
  end: 1579.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we see this in Jesus' own preaching, the binding of the strong man.
  zh: 我们在耶稣自己的讲道中看到这一点，就是捆绑壮士。
- start: 1579.177
  end: 1587.944
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To put it another way, evil is strongest where the people of God are complacent.
  zh: 换句话说，神的子民最自满的地方，邪恶就最强大。
- start: 1589.205
  end: 1607.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But to stand up to evil does not mean to use the force, and it does not mean  So, I would argue that we are God's hands, but we are not God's fists.
  zh: 但是对抗邪恶并不意味着使用武力，它并不意味着——所以，我认为我们是神的手，但我们不是神的拳头。
- start: 1609.661
  end: 1615.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, to be fair, the book of Revelation does have that promise of retribution in it, right?
  zh: 现在，公平地说，启示录确实包含报应的承诺，对吧？
- start: 1615.684
  end: 1620.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The first years are going to get what's coming to them, and Rome will fall.
  zh: 最初的几年将会得到应得的报应，罗马将会衰落。
- start: 1623.914
  end: 1631.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The author never wavers from the basic message that judgment belongs to God alone.
  zh: 作者始终坚持审判只属于神这一基本信息。
- start: 1631.977
  end: 1634.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Vengeance belongs to God alone.
  zh: 复仇只属于神。
- start: 1635.998
  end: 1648.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the scenes of warfare, where evil is defeated, again, are part of John's vision into the spiritual realm, and are not about actual warfare on earth.
  zh: 因此，那些邪恶被击败的战争场景，再次强调，是约翰对属灵领域的异象的一部分，而不是关于地上实际的战争。
- start: 1650.021
  end: 1659.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's a battle that God fights on our behalf, not a battle that people fight on behalf of God, or in the name of God.
  zh: 所以这是神为我们而战的战斗，而不是人为神而战或以神的名义而战的战斗。
- start: 1660.005
  end: 1668.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And even when the martyrs cry out to God in the text, how long, O Lord, quoting the Psalms, how long until you avenge our deaths?
  zh: 即使在经文中殉道者向神呼喊，「主啊，要等到几时」，引用诗篇，「你才为我们的死伸冤呢？」
- start: 1668.489
  end: 1669.89
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What is the answer?
  zh: 答案是什么？
- start: 1670.27
  end: 1671.23
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Patience.
  zh: 忍耐。
- start: 1671.831
  end: 1672.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Wait.
  zh: 等待。
- start: 1676.676
  end: 1689.768
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So I think that part of the message of Revelation is that people have to let go of the need to take it upon themselves to right wrongs or to defeat evil, especially by violence, of course.
  zh: 所以我认为启示录信息的一部分是人们必须放弃自己纠正错误或战胜邪恶的需求，特别是通过暴力的方式，当然。
- start: 1690.989
  end: 1703.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When the martyrs are told to wait, you know, it's not only that  You're not going to take revenge for yourself, but you're not going to ask when this will be done.
  zh: 当殉道者被告知要等待时，你知道，这不仅意味着你不会为自己报仇，而且你也不会问这何时会完成。
- start: 1703.133
  end: 1707.676
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're not going to know whether it will be done.
  zh: 你不会知道它是否会被完成。
- start: 1707.836
  end: 1711.259
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not for you to know or even care.
  zh: 这不是你该知道或甚至关心的。
- start: 1711.699
  end: 1722.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, standing up to evil means taking up the weapons of God, which are patience, forgiveness, and reconciliation.
  zh: 所以，对抗邪恶意味着拿起神的武器，这些武器是忍耐、宽恕和和解。
- start: 1725.217
  end: 1732.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There's that interesting image in the text where John eats the scroll, and it tastes good, but then it gives him stomachache.
  zh: 文中有一个有趣的画面，约翰吃了书卷，它尝起来很甜，但随后让他肚子疼。
- start: 1733.163
  end: 1740.948
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So the scroll represents God's judgment, and the message there is that God's judgment is bittersweet.
  zh: 所以这书卷代表神的审判，其中的信息是神的审判是苦乐参半的。
- start: 1742.309
  end: 1754.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And this, I think, is a warning not to ever get joy from another's downfall, not to be triumphalistic about the misfortune even of one's enemy.
  zh: 我认为，这是一个警告，不要从他人的失败中获得快乐，不要对敌人的不幸幸灾乐祸。
- start: 1755.416
  end: 1757.638
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because God's judgment is bittersweet.
  zh: 因为神的审判是苦乐参半的。
- start: 1759.199
  end: 1766.985
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Ultimately, the method of the book of Revelation is to keep the faith and not give up hope.
  zh: 最终，启示录的方法是坚持信仰，不放弃希望。
- start: 1766.985
  end: 1769.567
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Remember, it's written to a persecuted church.
  zh: 记住，它是写给一个受迫害的教会的。
- start: 1769.567
  end: 1770.608
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Keep the faith.
  zh: 坚持信仰。
- start: 1770.608
  end: 1775.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Don't abandon your faith, even to save your life.
  zh: 不要放弃你的信仰，即使是为了救你的生命。
- start: 1775.672
  end: 1777.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Don't give up hope.
  zh: 不要放弃希望。
- start: 1778.321
  end: 1788.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It looks forward to a peaceful future, but this is a peaceful future that will be brought about by divine intervention, by God's activity.
  zh: 它展望和平的未来，但这是一个将由神的干预，由神的行动带来的和平未来。
- start: 1788.47
  end: 1801.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And we can participate in God's activity as long as we are actually participating in God's activity and not taking our own activity and calling it God's. God fights for us.
  zh: 只要我们真正参与神的活动，而不是把我们自己的活动称为神的活动，我们就可以参与神的活动。神为我们而战。
- start: 1801.341
  end: 1803.082
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We don't fight for God.
  zh: 我们不为神而战。
- start: 1804.124
  end: 1811.957
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the meantime,  Our world still presents us with false gods demanding worship.
  zh: 同时，我们的世界仍然向我们呈现要求崇拜的假神。
- start: 1814.177
  end: 1816.278
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I see them every day.
  zh: 我每天都看到它们。
- start: 1816.478
  end: 1819.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're called commercials on television.
  zh: 它们被称为电视广告。
- start: 1819.559
  end: 1829.662
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, they want you to buy more and they want you to believe the lie that you're feeling love if you buy their product and all that stuff.
  zh: 你知道，它们想让你买更多，它们想让你相信谎言，如果你买了它们的产品，你就会感受到爱，诸如此类的东西。
- start: 1829.662
  end: 1843.81
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so every day we're faced with false gods  And we're faced with temptations to remove our focus from the things that matter and from our Creator and focus on the things of creation.
  zh: 所以每天我们都面对着假神，我们面对着诱惑，要我们把注意力从重要的事物和我们的创造者身上移开，转而关注被造物。
- start: 1844.55
  end: 1856.874
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But being a person of God, no less today than in 95 CE, being a person of God means being counter-cultural and choosing not to worship those false gods.
  zh: 但作为神的子民，今天和公元95年一样，意味着要反文化，选择不崇拜那些假神。
- start: 1858.058
  end: 1864.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that's what Revelation calls John's audience to, and that's what Revelation calls us to.
  zh: 这就是启示录呼召约翰的听众去做的，也是启示录呼召我们去做的。
- start: 1864.341
  end: 1866.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Reject the false doubt.
  zh: 拒绝虚假的怀疑。
- start: 1866.222
  end: 1867.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Focus on the real one.
  zh: 专注于真实的那一位。
- start: 1868.403
  end: 1871.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Don't trade the Creator for creation.
  zh: 不要用创造物换取创造主。
- start: 1872.125
  end: 1875.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Keep the faith, and don't lose hope.
  zh: 保持信心，不要失去希望。
- start: 1876.868
  end: 1877.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 1882.965
  end: 1912.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, one of my questions is not really a historical question, I guess it's a spiritual discipline question, which is the question of this repeated admonishment to patience, and to not taking matters of vengeance, or even sometimes in well-meaning ways what we would call justice,  In to our own hands, particularly to our fists, as you've noted.
  zh: 嗯，我的一个问题并不真的是历史问题，我猜这是一个属灵操练的问题，就是关于这种反复劝诫要有耐心，不要自己动手报复，甚至有时以善意的方式我们称之为正义的事，不要把它们掌握在我们自己手中，特别是用我们的拳头，正如你所指出的。
- start: 1912.631
  end: 1936.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, because I know that you work both in historical scholarship and also pastoral and spiritual work, what are some spiritual practices that you might assign to us as we try to keep that patience  Well, you know, I think that there are as many different callings and spirits of discipline as there are people.
  zh: 所以，因为我知道你既从事历史学术研究，也从事牧养和属灵工作，你可能会给我们指派一些什么样的属灵操练，让我们在努力保持那种耐心时实践呢？嗯，你知道，我认为有多少人就有多少不同的呼召和纪律精神。
- start: 1936.496
  end: 1944.701
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, we're everybody unique, and there's no two personalities alike, and so there are no two relationships with God that are alike.
  zh: 你知道，我们每个人都是独特的，没有两个性格是完全相同的，所以也没有两个与神的关系是完全相同的。
- start: 1944.962
  end: 1947.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And different things work for different people.
  zh: 不同的方法对不同的人有效。
- start: 1947.123
  end: 1954.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I will say this, that I think what we ought to be, what we all ought to be striving for is a balance.
  zh: 但我要说的是，我认为我们应该成为，我们都应该努力追求的是一种平衡。
- start: 1955.283
  end: 1968.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: A balance between what we might call good works or social responsibility and, on the other hand, personal devotion.
  zh: 在我们可能称之为善行或社会责任与个人虔诚之间取得平衡。
- start: 1968.787
  end: 1984.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so I think we all have personalities that  Make us tend to lean one way or the other.
  zh: 所以我认为我们都有倾向于偏向一方或另一方的性格。
- start: 1984.579
  end: 1994.545
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some people are more comfortable with getting out into the world and doing good in the name of God.
  zh: 有些人更喜欢走出去，以神的名义行善。
- start: 1994.545
  end: 2004.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that very tendency might make that same person tend to ignore personal devotion or even worship.
  zh: 但这种倾向可能会使同一个人倾向于忽视个人虔诚甚至敬拜。
- start: 2004.211
  end: 2015.761
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the other hand, some people are much more comfortable with going to a quiet place and praying  But they do that so much that they never get out and speak under you, or for fatigue.
  zh: 另一方面，有些人更喜欢去一个安静的地方祷告，但他们做得太多以至于从不出去为你发声，或因疲劳而不出去。
- start: 2015.761
  end: 2018.504
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it's all about this balance.
  zh: 所以这一切都是关于这种平衡。
- start: 2018.684
  end: 2021.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, I call it spiritual triumph, actually.
  zh: 我的意思是，我实际上称之为属灵的胜利。
- start: 2021.267
  end: 2029.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think there are three things you need, which would be corporate worship,  Personal emotion and social responsibility.
  zh: 我认为你需要三件事，那就是集体敬拜、个人情感和社会责任。
- start: 2029.613
  end: 2033.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I think, like a tripod, without any of those three-legged things passing over.
  zh: 我认为，就像一个三脚架，缺少了这三条腿中的任何一条都无法站立。
- start: 2033.835
  end: 2048.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, if you're asking me, I think that some of the ancient disciplines, like the Jesus Prayer and things like that, that allow for time of quiet reflection,  Subtitles by the Amara.org
  zh: 现在，如果你问我，我认为一些古老的操练，比如耶稣祷告之类的，允许有安静反思的时间，字幕由Amara.org提供
- start: 2048.102
  end: 2059.678
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: community  Are there other questions?
  zh: 团体 还有其他问题吗？
- start: 2059.678
  end: 2060.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Evelyn?
  zh: 伊芙琳？
- start: 2060.478
  end: 2065.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You've got me up short with, not confusing the Creator with the creation.
  zh: 你让我措手不及，说不要混淆创造主和被造物。
- start: 2065.339
  end: 2077.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm a fan of Earth and all such things that we know about, and I tend to like the definition of God as ground of being, and I don't think those are confusable.
  zh: 我是地球和我们所知道的所有这些事物的粉丝，我倾向于喜欢将神定义为存在的基础，我不认为这些是可以混淆的。
- start: 2078.342
  end: 2088.255
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, ground of being, I think, you know, comes from a  Historical-traditional perspective.
  zh: 嗯，我认为，你知道，「存在的基础」这个概念来自一个历史传统的视角。
- start: 2089.095
  end: 2099.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Ground of being is fine as long as you recognize the distinction between creator and creation, so that you don't run into a kind of pantheistic or panentheistic understanding of God.
  zh: 「存在的基础」这个说法没问题，只要你认识到创造主和被造物之间的区别，这样你就不会陷入一种泛神论或泛神在论的神观。
- start: 2099.897
  end: 2101.437
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No, that's just me.
  zh: 不，那只是我的看法。
- start: 2101.957
  end: 2105.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I would prefer source of being.
  zh: 但我更喜欢「存在的源头」这种说法。
- start: 2105.598
  end: 2109.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think that would make the distinction a little bit better.
  zh: 我认为这样会使区别更加清晰一些。
- start: 2111.199
  end: 2117.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Certainly not to denigrate creation because God's creation is good.
  zh: 当然不是要贬低创造，因为神的创造是好的。
- start: 2117.144
  end: 2123.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that is, I think, an essential aspect of understanding the goodness of God.
  zh: 我认为，这是理解神的良善的一个重要方面。
- start: 2123.389
  end: 2128.333
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How else can we know God except from God's creation?
  zh: 除了通过神的创造，我们还能如何认识神呢？
- start: 2128.333
  end: 2132.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So I appreciate that you bring that up.
  zh: 所以我很感谢你提出这一点。
- start: 2132.937
  end: 2133.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Other questions?
  zh: 还有其他问题吗？
- start: 2136.924
  end: 2149.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Jim, I don't know if you're going to touch on this, but you talked a little bit about the seven churches that the book of Revelation was originally written to, and I think there were two that were faithful.
  zh: 吉姆，我不知道你是否会谈到这一点，但你稍微提到了启示录最初写给的七个教会，我记得其中有两个是忠心的。
- start: 2149.357
  end: 2156.104
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, you know, the seven churches in the beginning chapters of Revelation, there are seven churches that are addressed directly.
  zh: 嗯，你知道，在启示录开头几章中，有七个教会被直接提到。
- start: 2156.398
  end: 2175.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in almost every case, there's a pattern to that address, where it's basically a very sort of, there's an encouraging part, and then there's, here's where there's room, room, room, and so it's like, I'm proud of you that you're doing this, that, the other thing, but here's what I have against you.
  zh: 在几乎每一种情况下，这种表述都有一个模式，基本上是这样的：有一个鼓励的部分，然后是「这里有改进的空间」，所以就像是「我为你做这个、那个感到骄傲，但这是我对你的不满之处」。
- start: 2176.219
  end: 2183.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I see that really as, and this is why I talk about Revelation as kind of an Episcopal letter from John functioning as a sort of bishop.
  zh: 我真的把它看作是，这就是为什么我说启示录是约翰以某种主教身份写的一种主教书信。
- start: 2183.565
  end: 2188.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, the office of bishop, as it exists today, didn't exist yet back then.
  zh: 现在，今天存在的主教职位，在当时还不存在。
- start: 2188.028
  end: 2190.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We don't really know that, but, okay.
  zh: 我们并不真的知道那一点，但好吧。
- start: 2191.531
  end: 2209.03
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think it's fair to see some kind of an analogy as though John is the apostle who is the overseer, because that's the word bishop, he's the overseer, who is the overseer, or who is in some sense the apostolic authority over the churches of Asia Minor.
  zh: 我认为可以做一个类比，把约翰看作是监督者的使徒，因为「主教」这个词就是监督者的意思，他是监督者，或者说在某种意义上是小亚细亚教会的使徒权威。
- start: 2209.03
  end: 2214.616
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So these are the churches that were seeing him  Music will be omitted.
  zh: 所以这些是看到他的教会 音乐将被省略。
- start: 2243.55
  end: 2267.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: There's quite a movement from the very beginning of the book to the end, in terms of what the final, you know, all these, you get to chapters 20, 21, 22, and they talk about the new city and the new Jerusalem, and this almost like a beatific vision of this marvelous sense of what eternity would look like or something like that, or what we might interpret today as being eternal.
  zh: 从书的开头到结尾有相当大的变化，就最后的内容而言，你知道，所有这些，到了20、21、22章，它们谈到新城和新耶路撒冷，这几乎就像是一个美好的异象，展现了永恒可能的样子，或者我们今天可能解释为永恒的东西。
- start: 2267.602
  end: 2270.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: How would that fit in within the context of the book?
  zh: 这如何与整本书的背景相符呢？
- start: 2270.97
  end: 2305.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, I think that ultimately what's happening here is that the book of Revelation is the culmination of the New Testament shift  In the Old Testament, you have the concept of the day of the Lord, that there would be a time when God would intervene, and all wrongs would be righted, and oppressors would be punished, and victims would be vindicated, and they would be rewarded for their faithfulness.
  zh: 嗯，我认为最终发生在这里的是，启示录是新约转变的高潮。在旧约中，你有「主的日子」的概念，就是会有一个时候神会介入，所有的错误都会被纠正，压迫者会受到惩罚，受害者会得到平反，他们会因忠诚而得到奖赏。
- start: 2307.339
  end: 2313.786
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But in the Old Testament, this idea is  It's still in this world.
  zh: 但在旧约中，这个想法仍然是在这个世界里。
- start: 2313.826
  end: 2318.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Salvation, even in the Old Testament, is in many ways an earthly concept.
  zh: 即使在旧约中，救恩在很多方面也是一个世俗的概念。
- start: 2318.369
  end: 2323.311
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you read in the Psalms, there are a lot of salvation psalms, but it's all about God saving from my enemies.
  zh: 如果你读诗篇，有很多关于救恩的诗，但都是关于神从我的敌人手中拯救我。
- start: 2323.391
  end: 2325.492
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Get me out of this foxhole, right?
  zh: 把我从这个困境中救出来，对吧？
- start: 2326.412
  end: 2340.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The shift from that to the New Testament is that in the New Testament, the day of the Lord is put off, not until sometime in the future, but in this world, but it's put off into the actual afterlife, the next world, the spiritual realm.
  zh: 从旧约到新约的转变是，在新约中，主的日子被推迟了，不是推迟到未来的某个时候，而是在这个世界里，但它被推迟到实际的来世，下一个世界，属灵的领域。
- start: 2340.899
  end: 2360.828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the book of Revelation is the pinnacle of that, so that, you know, even the coming of Jesus only partially brings the day of the Lord, but the real  Fulfillment of that, wait until, as it's understood in the text, a return, a second coming.
  zh: 启示录是这一转变的顶点，所以，你知道，即使耶稣的到来只是部分带来了主的日子，但真正的实现，要等到，正如文本中理解的那样，一个回归，一个再来。
- start: 2362.249
  end: 2372.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so what we're seeing here is almost, not quite, almost an admission that there's something irredeemable about this world.
  zh: 所以我们在这里看到的几乎是，虽然不完全是，但几乎是承认这个世界有些无可救药的东西。
- start: 2372.834
  end: 2394.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, not that earth and creation is bad, but that there's something about the world that  Humans aren't going to be omitted, it's going to take divine intervention, and it's going to take, you know, more than just divine intervention, it's going to take a re-creation, and a restoration of the whole creation.
  zh: 再次强调，不是说地球和创造是坏的，而是这个世界有些东西人类无法改变，它需要神的干预，而且你知道，不仅仅是神的干预，它需要重新创造，需要整个创造的恢复。
- start: 2395.163
  end: 2398.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So I think that's what you get here, that this is the revelation.
  zh: 所以我认为这就是你在这里得到的，这就是启示。
- start: 2398.965
  end: 2428.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: At the end of our assessment, reverend, this is the ultimate  You hinted at it a number of times through your talk about God's role in punishing the evildoers and getting our vengeance and whatnot.
  zh: 在我们评估的最后，牧师，这是最终的——你在谈话中多次暗示了神在惩罚作恶者和为我们报仇等方面的角色。
- start: 2428.524
  end: 2438.349
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: And I guess I wonder,  How much do you think, what kind of God-worthy worship is this picture painting?
  zh: 我想知道，你认为这幅画描绘的是什么样的配得神的敬拜？
- start: 2438.349
  end: 2442.832
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: Does it seem too wrapped up in our notions of what justice is?
  zh: 它是否似乎过于局限于我们对正义的理解？
- start: 2444.414
  end: 2448.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: And what appeal does this have, even if the violence is not for us to do?
  zh: 即使暴力不是我们要做的，这种描述有什么吸引力？
- start: 2449.141
  end: 2453.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: But it's God's to take care of, as he's intimated a number of times.
  zh: 但这是神要处理的事，正如他多次暗示的那样。
- start: 2453.466
  end: 2454.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Right, right.
  zh: 对，对。
- start: 2454.146
  end: 2463.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, again, you know, I think the point, part of the point is that when God takes care of it, it will, it ultimately won't be taken care of through violence.
  zh: 嗯，再次说明，你知道，我认为重点是，部分重点是当神处理这事时，最终不会通过暴力来解决。
- start: 2463.136
  end: 2472.006
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, that doesn't mean that there isn't judgment that's held out there as either a promise or a warning.
  zh: 现在，这并不意味着没有作为承诺或警告而存在的审判。
