「各位晚上好。」 Good evening, everyone.
「感谢大家来参加我们的堂区使命活动。」 Thank you for coming out for our parish mission.
「真的非常感谢大家的到来。」 Really, thank you for coming out.
「大家都品尝了甜面包，味道很不错。」 Everybody had some sweet bread, and it was good.
「是的，确实很好。」 It was good, yes.
「克里斯汀，你也这么告诉我的。」 You told me so, Christine.
「好的。」 Okay.
「明晚我们将在同一时间同一地点再次相聚，届时会有汤和 面包，然后琼斯博士将为我们带来第二场公教会讲座。」 Well, we're going to play tomorrow night, same time, same station, and we'll have the soup and the bread, and then Dr. Jones is going to be giving me a second Catholic talk tomorrow.
「首先，非常感谢德文和贝拉·卢娜提供的西装。」 So, first of all, thank you very much to Devin and Bella Luna for the suit.
「感谢马特神父，他是我的前辈，还有米姆和他的团队，特别是戈登 神父，他用他一贯幽默的方式对我说，宝贝，我们就上广播吧。」 Thanks to Father Matt, who is my senior male, to Mim and his set of guys, and especially Father Gordon, who said to me, in the usual funny style, baby, let's just hop on the radio.
「当我在街上遇见他时。」 When I saw him on the street.
「对于那些黑人和印度学者来说，他们谈论新教宗 选举时教宗的声望如何，希望这事能尽快发生。」 For those of you who are Black and Indian scholars, they say how famous Papa was when the New Folk was elected, which hopefully will be soon.
「同时也要感谢天主教菲律宾网络、黑人天主教徒和玛 丽·福克，是他们为我们今晚安排了嘉宾演讲者。」 So, thanks also to the Catholic Filipino Network, the Black Catholics, and Mary Fork, who put us together with our guest speaker here for this evening.
「他的名字是吉姆·科克伦-格雷厄姆博士。」 And his name is Dr. Jim Cochran-Graham.
「他是一位教师、作家、演讲者和音乐家。」 He's a teacher, an author, a speaker, and a musician.
「吉姆在西北大学获得了早期基督教会历史与神 学博士学位，辅修新约解释和罗马帝国历史。」 Jim holds a Ph.D. in History and Theology of the early Christian Church at Northwestern University, with secondary concentrations in the New Testament Interpretation and the History of the Roman Empire.
「他还在布罗姆利的美国学院学习过罗马历史。」 He has also studied Roman history at the American Academy in Bromley.
「他是西北大学尼尔森校区加里克福音神学院的教会历史副教授。」 He is an Associate Professor of Church History at Garrick Evangelical Seminary on the campus of Northwestern University at the Nelson.
「他还在芝加哥总教区和乔利埃特教区的平信徒培训项目、芝加 哥公教会圣经学校以及芝加哥总教区的执事培训项目中任教。」 He also teaches for the lay formation programs in the Archdiocese of Chicago and the Diocese of Joliet, the Chicago Catholic Scripture School, and Deacon Formation Program in the Archdiocese of Chicago.
「非常忙碌的一个人。」 Very busy guy.
「好的。」 Okay.
「关于他的网站，我们会在一些宣传资料上提到 ，在他演讲结束后，教堂后面会有相关信息。」 And his website is, we'll be on some promotional information that, there's information that will be in the back of the church after his speaking.
「在吉姆演讲结束后，我知道会有问答时间。那么，介绍到此为 止，我现在把时间交给我们的演讲者，吉姆·波默罗伊博士。」 And at the end of Jim's talk, I know there will be time for Q&A. So, with that introduction, I will bring it over to our speaker, Dr. Jim Pomeroy.
「我打算唱一首歌来为今晚定调，希望大家不介意。」 I'm going to give a song to set the mood for this evening, so I hope that's okay.
「我有我的舞蹈，我高举我的舞蹈。我是一个弯曲者，我的罪如同沙粒。」 I've got my dance I lift my dance I am a bender and my sins are like sand.
「当我祷告时，我需要感受你的同在。」 I need to feel your presence when I pray.
「但我并不总能找到合适的言语。」 But I can't always find the words to say.
「我一再向你祈求，当四周无人时他在地上，我听不到声音，如同鸽子的翅 膀，你高举这片大地，我抬起头，伸出手，就像有人曾为我做的那样。」 I ask you, thought and thought, He's on the ground when there's no one around And I just can't hear the sound Coming like the wings of a dove You're holding this piece of earth above I lift my head, reach out my hand, just like someone did for me.
「我能帮你站起来吗？」 Can I help you stand?
「我想成为你眼中的耶稣。」 It's a Jesus to you I want to be.
「我想成为你眼中的耶稣。」 And it's Jesus to you I want to be.
「当你迷失又被寻回时，他就在地上。」 When you're lost and found, he's on the ground.
「当四周无人，你听不到任何声音时。」 When there's no one around, and you can't hear a sound.
「他如鸽子的翅膀般降临。」 He's coming like the waves of a dove.
「圣灵述说他爱的话语。」 The Holy Spirit speaks his words of love.
「我低头时，你赐我力量，让我说出心中所想的祷告。」 And bow my head, you give me the strength that I've been speaking the prayers I have thought about.
「在紧要关头，他就在地上。」 He's on the ground when push comes to shove.
「你感恩于上，如同天上的波浪降临。」 You're grateful to above, coming like the waves above.
「你的圣灵述说你爱的话语。当我行走时，我能被寻见，双脚踏实地。谢谢。」 Your Holy Spirit speaks Your words of love When I walk, I can be found With my two feet on the ground Thank you.
「我是吉姆·帕顿·布朗，我来这里是为了烦扰你们。」 So, I'm Jim Patton Brown, and I'm here to annoy you.
「没关系。」 It's okay.
「我们知道。」 We know.
「当我说我们时，我是指我们这些皈依者。」 And when I say we, I mean we converse.
「我们知道对于你们这些从小就是天主教徒、终身天主教徒的人来 说，我们可能有多烦人，因为我们带着对信仰的全部热情而来。」 We know how annoying we can be to those of you who are cradle Catholics, lifelong Catholics, and here we come with all of our enthusiasm for the faith.
「实际上，严格来说我是重归者，不是皈依者，因为我在斯科基的圣兰伯特教堂受洗。」 Actually, technically I'm a revert, not a convert, because I was baptized at St. Lambert in Skokie.
「我在罗马公教会信仰中受洗，但后来在新教教派中长大。」 Baptized in Roman Catholic faith, but then raised in a Protestant denomination.
「最终在另一个新教教派中被按立为神职人员。」 Eventually ordained as clergy in a different Protestant denomination.
「现在我很高兴又重新成为罗马公教会的一员。」 And now I'm happy to be a Roman Catholic again.
「事实上，有两件事我想说。」 In fact, there are two things I hope to say.
「有两件事我希望能早点做。」 There are two things I wish I could have done sooner.
「回到罗马公教会和找到一份工作。」 Come back to the Roman Catholic Church and get a job.
「我改天再跟你们详细讲讲我的工作，但现在我们在这里谈论的是教会和信仰。」 I'll tell you all about my job some other time, but right now we're here talking about the church and faith.
「有趣的是，现在我在一所新教神学院教授教会历史和历史神学。」 And so now, interestingly enough, I teach church history and historical theology at a Protestant seminary.
「就是我获得博士学位的那所神学院。但在罗马公教会 ，我在堂区教学，我教导执事，这是我喜欢做的事。」 The same front of the seminary where I got my Ph.D. But in the Roman Church, I teach at parishes, I teach to deacons, which I love to do.
「事实上，关于执事，我旁边有一个神学课程，所以我很期待。」 In fact, concerning the deacons, there's a theology class next to me, so I'm looking forward to that.
「我在圣经学校教学，在特定任务中教授神学，我还举办音乐会，所以我经常四处奔波。」 I teach in scripture schools, theology in a task, I do concerts, and so I'm out and about a lot.
「我非常高兴能来到这个同样美丽的地方，今晚的主题是两种信仰，两种恐惧。」 I'm very, very glad to be here at this equally beautiful place, and tonight's topic is Two Kinds of Faith, Two Kinds of Fear.
「纵观教会历史，总有一些恐惧制造者告诉我们，行为规范的理由是为了避免审判。」 Now, throughout the history of the Church, there have always been the fear-minders telling us that the reason to behave is to avoid judgment.
「这种观念可以追溯到教会的初期。」 And this idea goes all the way back to the beginning of the Church.
「但如果仅仅如此，那宗教就被简化为不过是一种防火保险，对吧？」 But if that's all it is, then religion is reduced a little more than fire insurance, right?
「这就是你心目中的基督教信仰吗？」 And is that what your Christianity is to you?
「仅仅是一种防火保险？」 Just fire insurance?
「还是有什么在告诉你，应该不止于此？」 Or is there something telling you that there should be more, too?
「早期教会神学家亚历山大的克莱门特写道，实际上有两种恐惧。」 The early church theologian, Clement of Alexandria, wrote that there are actually two kinds of fear.
「有坏的恐惧和好的恐惧。」 There is the bad kind and the good kind.
「坏的恐惧是伴随着仇恨的恐惧。」 The bad kind of fear is fear accompanied by hatred.
「这是被压迫者对权威感到的那种恐惧。」 This is the kind of fear that oppressed people feel toward a title.
「但也有好的恐惧。」 But there's also good kind of fear.
「这是伴随着敬畏的恐惧。」 This is the fear that is accompanied by drama.
「可以说，这就像孩子想要向父母表示的那种尊重。」 The kind of respect, shall we say, that children want to show their parents.
「区别在于一种是被迫的，另一种是自愿的。」 The difference is that one is forced and the other is voluntary.
「我们知道，孩子应该对父母表示的那种尊重是自愿的。」 And we know that the kind of respect that children ought to show their parents is voluntary.
「我们知道这是自愿的，因为无论你是父母、曾经是父母，还是有过父母，在 这种关系中总有人在某个时候反抗过，证明了尊重并不总是必然存在的。」 We know that's voluntary because either you are a parent, have been a parent, or you have had parents, and somebody in that relationship rebelled at some time or another and proved the point that respect isn't necessarily always shown.
「在新约中，约翰一书4章18节说，完全的爱可以驱除恐惧。」 In the New Testament, in the letter to 1 John, 1 John 4, 18 says, Perfect love casts out fear.
「所以这种恐惧，就是克莱门特和亚历山大所说的第一种恐惧，坏的恐惧，被迫的恐惧。」 So this kind of fear is, Clement and Alex had this first kind of fear, the bad kind of fear, the forced kind of fear.
「这是伴随着仇恨的恐惧。」 It's fear accompanied by hatred.
「为什么？」 Why?
「因为这是没有信任的恐惧。」 Because it's fear without trust.
「这是神想要消除的。」 And this is something God wants to do away with.
「圣经告诉我们，神的爱驱除了这种恐惧。」 God's love, the Bible tells us, casts it out.
「然后，在一个人的生命中，这种恐惧被神的爱所取代。」 And this thing here is replaced, then, by God's love in a person's life.
「但你可能也注意到，在旧约中，诗篇和箴言告诉我们，敬畏耶和华是智慧的开端。」 But you may have also noticed that in the Old Testament, the Psalms and the Proverbs tell us, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
「这就是克莱门特所说的另一种恐惧。」 Now this is Clement's other kind of fear.
「带有敬畏的恐惧。」 Fear with reverence.
「换句话说，这是带有信任的恐惧。」 In other words, this is fear with trust.
「这种恐惧，或者说敬畏，实际上是圣灵的恩赐。」 And this kind of fear, or reverence, is actually a gift of the Holy Spirit.
「你遇到过对神没有敬畏之心的人吗？」 Have you met people who have no reverence for God?
「这真的是一种恶性循环。」 It's kind of a vicious cycle, really.
「因为这些人在生活中拒绝了神。」 Because these are people who have rejected God in their lives.
「通过拒绝神，他们在生活中没有利用圣灵。」 By rejecting God, they've made no use of the Holy Spirit in their lives.
「既然对神的敬畏是圣灵的恩赐，他们显然不会拥有它，因为 没有圣灵在他们的生命中，他们就不会有圣灵持久的恩赐。」 And since this reverence for God is a gift of the Holy Spirit, they're obviously not going to have it, because without the Holy Spirit in their lives, they're going to be lasting gifts of the Holy Spirit.
「所以，拒绝神导致没有圣灵，进而导致对神没有敬畏。」 So, rejecting God leads to no Holy Spirit, leads to no reverence for God.
「你看，这是一种恶性循环。」 So you see, it's kind of a vicious cycle.
「但这个循环也可以反过来运作，朝另一个方向发展。」 But the cycle can work the other way, move in the other direction.
「欢迎神进入你的生命意味着你生命中有了圣灵 ，这意味着圣灵的恩赐对你来说是可得的。」 Welcoming God into your life means you have the Holy Spirit in your life, which means the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to you.
「在那里，敬畏之心会增加。」 And there, the reverence will be increased.
「所以有这两种灵，一种没有信任，一种有信任。」 So there are these two kinds of spirits, one without trust and one with trust.
「带有信任的恐惧是一种健康的恐惧，尽管我们可能更愿意称之为敬畏，因为 在我们的文化中，他们使用恐惧这个词的方式正是我们想要标记的方式。」 Fear with trust is a healthy fear, though we might prefer to call it reverence, as in our culture they use the word fear quite the way we want to label it.
「但对神健康的敬畏，或对神健康的惧怕，提醒我们在神面前的位置。」 But healthy reverence for God, or healthy fear of God, reminds us of our place before God.
「换句话说，神是神，我们不是，对吧？」 In other words, God is God, and we are not, right?
「我可以用一句话总结所有希伯来智慧文学。」 I can sum up all of Hebrew wisdom literature in one sentence.
「你知道，回想一下诗篇、箴言、传道书。」 You know, think back to the Psalms, the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes.
「归根结底就是这个。」 It all boils down to this.
「神是智慧的，我们不是。」 God is wise, and we're not.
「神是神，我们不是。」 God is God, and we're not.
「在智慧方面存在一个美妙的悖论。」 And there's this beautiful paradox when it comes to wisdom.
「如果你认为自己很智慧，你就是愚蠢的。」 If you think you're wise, you're foolish.
「但如果你承认自己不智慧，那才是智慧。」 But if you admit you're not wise, now that's wisdom.
「所以神是智慧的，我们不是。」 So God is wise and we are not.
「神是神，我们不是。」 God is God and we are not.
「实际上，这是好消息。」 Actually, that's good news.
「这是好消息，因为当我们不必与神同等时，做自己会更容易，对吧？」 That's good news because it makes it easier to be us when we don't have to be transcribed with God, right?
「这也使我们更容易信靠神，因为我们可以将信任放在全能的神身上。」 And it makes it easier to trust God, because we can put our trust in a God who is all-powerful.
「如果我们只能信任自己，那将是很大的压力。」 If we only had ourselves to trust, that'd be a lot of pressure.
「我不想要那种压力。」 I don't want that kind of pressure.
「但这减轻了我们的压力。」 But it takes the pressure off of us.
「如果我们能将信任放在一位比我们更智慧、更伟 大的神身上，我们就不必成为自己的更高自我。」 We don't have to be our own higher self if we can put our trust in a God who is so much wiser than we are, so much greater than we are.
「正是因为与神相比我们如此渺小，我们才能将信任放在神身上，因为神值得我们信任。」 And so it's precisely because we are so small compared to God that we can put our trust in God, because God is worthy of our trust.
「我们信靠神，因为他远远超越我们，超出我们的理解。」 We trust in God because He is so far beyond us and beyond our comprehension.
「我的意思是，想象一下如果你能完全理解神。」 I mean, imagine if you could have God completely figured out.
「那不是会让你比神更聪明吗？」 Wouldn't that make you smarter than God?
「如果你比神更聪明，那不是会让他失去作为神的资格吗？」 And if you were smarter than God, wouldn't that disqualify Him as God?
「所以，如果神不是如此伟大、令人敬畏的奥秘，他就不值得我们信任。」 So, if God wasn't such a big, awesome mystery, He wouldn't be worthy of our trust.
「但他确实是。」 But He is.
「他值得我们信任。」 He is worthy of our trust.
「因为他远远超越我们。」 Because He's so far beyond us.
「所以我们信靠他，恰恰是因为我们无法完全理解他。」 And so we put our trust in Him, precisely because we can't fully understand Him.
「当我们带着那种健康的敬畏，那种好的恐惧，敬畏，带着信任的敬畏接近他时。」 As we approach Him with that healthy fear, that good kind of fear, reverence, reverence with trust.
「现在，正如有两种恐惧一样，也有两种信心。」 Now, just as there are two kinds of fear, there are also two kinds of faith.
「首先，信心是信念。」 First of all, faith is belief.
「从某种意义上说，它是我们宗教的内容。」 In a sense, it is the content of our religion.
「它是我们所相信的。」 It is what we believe.
「当我想到它时，我的第一个想法总是信经。」 And when I think of it, my first thought is always, the creed.
「第十九条信经被认为是玫瑰经信徒的地狱，你知道， 当我说信经时，那老人，时钟之王，和教会之王。」 The 19th creed is considered a hell of rosary people, you know, when I say the creed, the old man, the king of the clock, and the king of the church.
「但我是一个基督教历史学家，所以我不必考虑第十九条信经。」 But I'm a Christian historian, so I don't have to think of the 19th creed.
「哪一个都行。」 Either one is fine.
「但关键是信经是一种信仰声明。」 But the point is that the creed is a statement of faith.
「信经是我们作为基督徒所信仰的总结。」 A creed is a summary of what we as Christians believe.
「在旧约中，你可以阅读整个旧约。」 In the Old Testament, you could read the whole Old Testament.
「这是一件好事。」 It's a good thing to do.
「但旧约也包含总结，不是吗？」 But the Old Testament also contains summaries, doesn't it?
「十诫。」 The Ten Commandments.
「十诫基本上是旧约的总结。」 The Ten Commandments are basically a summary of the Old Testament.
「新约也有一个总结。」 There is a summary of the New Testament also.
「不同之处在于它不在新约中。」 The difference is that it isn't in the New Testament.
「它必须在新约时代之后写成。」 It has to be written after the time of the New Testament.
「新约的总结是信经。」 The summary of the New Testament is decreed.
「这就是我们所信的。」 It is what we believe.
「这就是我们谈论信仰时所指的。」 It is what we mean when we talk about the faith.
「所以信心就是信念。」 So faith is belief.
「但仅有信念是不够的。」 But belief alone is not enough.
「信心必须不仅仅是信念。」 Faith has to be more than just belief.
「否则，它就是一种无意义的形式。」 Otherwise, it is a form of nonsense.
「现在，我希望你们知道诺斯替主义是什么。」 Now, I hope you know what Gnosticism is.
「你们可能在某个时候听说过诺斯替这个词。」 You may have heard the term Gnostic from around at one time or another.
「我给你们简单讲一下教会历史。」 I'll give you a very brief church history lesson.
「在早期教会中，有一群人。」 In the early church, there was a group of folks.
「我们现在称他们为异端。」 We now refer to them as heretics.
「他们也被称为诺斯替派。」 They were also called Gnostics.
「诺斯替这个词来自希腊词gnosis，以G开头，你知道的，G -N-O-S-I-S。Gnosis是希腊语中知识的意思。」 And the word Gnostic comes from the Greek word gnosis, spelled with a G, you know, G-N-O-S-I-S. Gnosis is the Greek word for knowledge.
「就像英语中我们的knowledge这个词开头有个不发音 的K一样，他们的gnosis这个词开头有个不发音的G。」 So just like in English our word knowledge has the silent K at the beginning, their word gnosis has the silent G at the beginning.
「但这些诺斯替派相信你是通过知识得救的，是你的知识拯救了你。」 But these Gnostics believed that you were saved by knowledge, that it was your knowledge that saved you.
「是你所知道的让你进入天堂。」 It was what you knew that would get you into heaven.
「现在，你可能会猜到这被欧洲教会拒绝作为一种可能的信仰形式。」 Now, you might guess that was rejected by the European church as a possible form of faith.
「但你知道吗？」 But you know what?
「传道书的作者说这世上没有新事物，他是对的。」 The writer of Ecclesiastes is right when he says there's nothing new on this earth.
「这不是因为它仍然存在。」 And not because it's still around.
「所以，当你听到有人告诉你真正需要的是开悟时，嗯，那不是一种知识形式。」 So, any time you hear someone telling you that what you really need is enlightenment, well, that's not a form of knowledge.
「当你听到有人告诉你真正需要的是从事物中找到知 识，从事物中找到洞见时，那也是一种知识形式。」 And any time you hear someone tell you that what you really need is to find the knowledge from the things, find the insight from the things, that's also a form of knowledge.
「问题是，如果我们把信心仅仅局限于我们所看 到的，仅仅局限于个人对一系列命题的认同。」 The problem with that is, if we make faith only about what we will see, only about a personal ascent to a list of propositions.
「那么就会发生几件事。」 Then a couple of things happen.
「首先，信心可能变得非常个人化。」 First of all, faith can become very individualistic.
「对诺斯替派来说确实如此。」 And it is for the Gnostic.
「事实上，诺斯替主义的现代版本基本上就是新时代运动。」 In fact, the modern version of Gnostic is basically the New Age movement.
「如果你了解新时代运动的话，你基本上可以成为一个 宗教人士，看到你想看到的任何东西，这都没问题。」 And if you know anything about the New Age movement, you can basically be a religious one, see whatever you want, and that's fine.
「所以信心变得过于个人化了。」 So faith becomes way too individualistic.
「当我们把信心仅仅局限于知识时，另一件发生的事是我们排 除了那些不理解我们所理解的或无法理解我们所理解的人。」 The other thing that happens when we make faith only about knowledge is that we leave out people who don't understand what we understand or who cannot understand what we understand.
「有不同能力的人，他们会被抛在后面。」 People with different abilities, they would be left behind.
「事实上，如果我们说我们的知识拯救了我们，你会在哪里划定界限？」 In fact, if we were to say that our knowledge saved us, where would you draw the line?
「你需要有多少知识才能得救？」 How much knowledge would you have to have to be saved?
「你是否必须完全理解三位一体？」 Would you have to understand Trinity completely?
「谁能做到这点？」 Who busted that?
「因为这让我们回到了原点，承认神是这个伟大、令人敬畏的奥秘，我们无 法完全理解，因为如果我们能完全理解神，那就意味着我们就是神了。」 Because that puts us right back where we were, admitting that God is this great, awesome ministry that we can't get our heads around, because if we could completely understand God, then that would mean love God.
「所以我们的信心不仅仅是接受教义。」 So our faith is not just about accepting doctrine.
「别误会我的意思，接受教义是好的。」 Now don't get me wrong, accepting doctrine is good.
「我是教义的忠实拥护者，因为我教授历史神学。」 And I'm a big fan of doctrine because I teach historical theology.
「我教授的是教会澄清教义的那个时期。」 I teach the time period of the church when the church is clarifying the doctrine.
「我也是教理问答的忠实拥护者。」 And I'm also a big fan of catechism.
「所以我鼓励你们去阅读它。」 So I encourage you to read that.
「教理问答是一个神奇的宝库，包含了你可能想知道的关于教会和我们信仰的一切。」 Catechism is an amazing well of of everything that you possibly want to know about the Church and what we believe.
「但归根结底，这里仍然存在一个奥秘的元素，不是吗？」 But at the end of the day, there's still an element of mystery here, isn't there?
「信心的一部分就是接受甚至拥抱这个奥秘。」 And part of faith is accepting and even embracing the mystery.
「事实上，我会说真正的信心需要奥秘。」 In fact, I would say that real faith requires mystery.
「如果没有奥秘，那就不是信心了。」 If there wasn't ministry, it wouldn't be faith.
「所以，除了信念之外，信心也是信任。」 So, in addition to belief, faith is also trust.
「你知道，当我们说某人有信心时，我们的意思是他们是值得信赖的。」 You know, when we talk about someone being faithful, what we mean is that they are trustworthy.
「对于神，我们相信神是值得信赖的。」 With God, we believe God is trustworthy.
「我们相信神是值得信赖的，有很多原因，但我现在想提两个原因。」 We believe God is trustworthy for, well, for many reasons, but for two reasons that I want to mention now.
「我们对神的信念之一是，神是，我要用一个神学术语，全善的。」 Part of what we believe about God is that God is, I'm going to throw a theological word at you, omnibenevolent.
「神是全善的，这是说神完全善良、永远善良的最好方式。」 God is omnibenevolent, which is the best way to say that God is all good, always good.
「我们还相信，这是另一点，我们相信神是不变的，意味着永恒不变。这很 好，因为如果神不是不变的，我们可能会说神今天是全善的，但明天呢？」 We also believe, here's another one, we also believe that God is immutable, meaning unchanging, Which is good, because if God wasn't unchanging, we could say that God is all good today, but what about tomorrow?
「对吧？」 Right?
「所以，把这两点放在一起，神是全善的，神是 不变的，这两点加起来就是神是值得信赖的。」 So, with those two things put together, that God is all good, and God is unchanging, those two add up to God is trustworthy.
「神是信实的。」 God is faithful.
「现在我们必须信靠神，因为神是一个奥秘。」 Now we have to trust God, because God is a minister.
「我们必须把自己交托给神的照顾，尽管没有任何实际证据。」 And we have to put ourselves in God's care without really any proof of it.
「我的意思是，我无法向你证明神将来会照顾你。」 I mean, I can't prove to you that God will care for you in the future.
「但我们信心的一部分是，我们相信他会这样做，基于神已经塑造了我们的道路， 神是始终如一的，神过去一直与我同在，所以我相信神将来也会继续与我同在。」 But part of our faith is that we believe that He will based on the fact that God has characterized our path, that there is a consistency to God, and God has been with me in the past, and so I believe God will continue to be with me in the future.
「所以，信心就是信念和信任的结合。」 So faith, then, is this combination of belief and trust.
「所以当我说有两种信心时，这与两种恐惧不同。」 So when I say there's two kinds of faith, It's not like the two kinds of fear.
「你知道，在两种恐惧中，有好的也有坏的。」 You know, with the two kinds of fear, there was bad and there was good.
「今天的情况不是这样的。」 It's not like that today.
「在这种情况下，它们都是好的。」 In this case, they're both good.
「只是第一种还不够深入。」 It's just that the first one doesn't quite go far enough.
「仅仅作为信念的信心还不够好。」 Faith as belief only isn't quite good.
「但第二种，作为信任的信心，完善了信心，完善了信徒。」 But the second one, faith as trust, completes faith, completes the believer.
「现在，我要说我们需要在心中放下几件事。」 Now, I'm going to say that there are a couple of things we need to put aside in our minds.
「信心不关乎数量，也不关乎质量。」 Faith is not about quantity, and it's not about quality.
「我接下来要讲的内容来自我正在读的一本书，叫《灵性蓝图》。」 And what I'm going to talk about now for a few minutes comes from one of the books I was reading called Spiritual Blueprints.
「这本书实际上是我在整理自己的生活时写的，结果出版商 想要出版它，认为它可能也会帮助读者整理他们的生活。」 And this book, I actually wrote it when I was sorting out my own life, and it turned out the publisher wanted to publish it, thinking it might help the books sort out their lives too.
「所以这本书可以说成了我自己的宣言。」 And so this book has become sort of my own manifesto, so to say.
「这可能是我自己的信仰之旅。」 It's my own, maybe, faith journey.
「我们都必须克服的一个观念是，认为信心与数量或质量有任何关系。」 And one of the things that we all have to get over is the idea that faith has anything to do with quantity or quality.
「首先，这不是数量的问题。」 First of all, it's not a matter of quantity.
「这不是我们有多少信心的问题。」 It's not a matter of how much faith we have.
「少量的信心仍然是有效的信心。」 A small amount of faith is still valid faith.
「这不是关于有足够的信心。」 It's not about having enough faith.
「耶稣说过，芥菜种子般的信心就足够了。」 Jesus said to himself that faith besides mustard seeds is enough.
「芥菜种子是小小的种子。」 Mustard seeds are small, tiny seeds.
「想想投资。」 Think of an investment.
「你们中有些人可能在股市上投资很多，愿神保佑我们。」 Some of you may have much investment in the stock market, God help us.
「我们可能有退休账户。」 We may have a retirement account.
「想想投资，任何种类的投资。」 Think about an investment, any kind of investment.
「投入更多的钱会使投资更安全吗？」 Does putting in more money make the investment safer?
「增加投资金额与投资的安全性或可靠性有关系吗？」 Does increasing the amount of the investment have anything to do with how safe or reliable the investment is?
「不，没有。它只是增加了你获得钱的可能性。」 No, it doesn't. It only increases your possibility of getting the money.
「重要的不是你投入了多少钱，而是你把钱投入到什么地方。」 It's not how much money you put into the investment, but it's what you put your money in that matters.
「信心也是一样的。」 And it's the same thing with faith.
「重要的不是你有多少信心，而是你把信心放在什么上面。」 It's not about how much faith you have, it's what you put your faith in that matters.
「重要的是你信心的对象。」 It's the object of your faith.
「信心也不关乎质量。」 Faith is also not about quality.
「并不是说信心有诚意的要求。」 It's not as though there's a sincerity requirement on faith.
「你听说过这种说法吗？」 Have you heard this one?
「你信什么并不重要，只要你全心全意地相信就行了。」 It doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you believe with all your heart.
「你听说过这种说法吗？」 Have you heard that one?
「嗯，那是谎言。」 Well, that's a lie.
「你信什么确实很重要。」 It does matter what you believe.
「事实上，你可能并不是非常坚定地相信某事。」 In fact, you may not believe in something very strongly.
「你可能发现你的信心不如你邻居的强。你可能发现你 有疑虑，但这没关系，只要你信心的对象是正确的。」 You may find that your faith is not as strong as your neighbor's. You may find that you have doubts, but that's okay, as long as your faith is the right object.
「说『你信什么并不重要，只要你全心全意地相信就行了』，就像说『 你发明什么并不重要，只要你把所有钱都投入其中就行了』一样。」 To say, it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you believe it with all your heart, would be like saying, it doesn't matter what you invented, as long as you put all your money into it.
「这有多荒谬？」 How ridiculous is that?
「你真诚地希望你的钱增长这一事实会让投资变得更好吗？」 Does the fact that you really want your money to grow sincerely make the investment any better?
「不会。事实上，这会让你有点痛苦，意味着你不能做你想做的事。」 It doesn't. The fact that it will make it hurt a little bit means you don't do what you want.
「再说一次，重要的不是你的信心有多诚恳。」 Again, it's not how sincere your faith is.
「也不是你相信得有多坚定。」 It's not how strongly you believe.
「重要的是对象。」 It's the object.
「重要的是你把信心放在什么上面。」 It's what you put your faith in.
「我想给你们讲个故事。」 I want to tell you a story.
「这是关于我们冰钓的故事。」 This is the story of our ice fishing.
「这里有人去过冰钓吗？」 Anyone here ever gone ice fishing?
「是的，我也没去过。」 Yeah, me either.
「我不知道为什么有人会想做这个。」 I don't know why anyone would want to do this.
「我没有给你们讲过个人经历的故事。」 I've not told you the story on a personal experience.
「这个故事完全是过时的。」 The story is completely dated.
「但你们会明白其中的道理，即使你们从未去过冰钓。」 But you'll get the idea, even though you've never been ice fishing.
「嗯，但你们知道什么是冰钓，对吧？」 Um, but you know what ice fishing is, right?
「我的意思是，冰钓就是你走到一个结冰的湖面上，在冰上凿 一个洞，把鱼线放进水里，然后你说，用这种方式捕鱼。」 I mean, ice fishing is you go out onto a frozen lake, you cut a hole through the ice, you drop a line into the water, and you quote, to catch fish this way.
「有些人甚至在冰上搭一个小棚子，里面放个暖炉。」 Some people even put up a little shaft on the ice with a heater in it.
「谢天谢地，他是对的。」 Thankfully, he's right.
「嗯...好的，你们明白了吧。」 Um... Okay, so you get the idea.
「你们知道什么是冰钓，对吧？」 You know what light fishing is, right?
「我在明尼苏达上的大学，所以我经常去冰钓。」 I went to college in Minnesota, so I get to do a lot of that.
「所以想象两个人要去冰钓。」 So imagine two guys are going to go light fishing.
「我们叫他们弗雷德和巴尼吧。」 Let's call them Fred and Barney.
「弗雷德和巴尼要去冰钓。」 Fred and Barney are going to go light fishing.
「现在，巴尼...」 Now, Barney...
「把他的装备装进他的皮卡车。」 Loads his gear into his pickup truck.
「他有他的小棚子，把它装进皮卡车里。」 He's got his little shaft, loads that into that pickup truck.
「他带上了所有的设备，然后开车去湖边。」 He's got all his equipment, and he drives into the lake.
「当他到达湖边时，他把皮卡车停在路边，然后下车走到冰面上。」 When he gets to the edge of the lake, he parks the pickup truck on the drive and he gets out of the truck and he goes and he walks over to the ice.
「他用脚趾碰了碰冰面的边缘，看看是否会裂开。」 And he puts a toe on the edge of the ice to see if it cracks.
「没有裂开。所以他站在冰上，但他还是离边缘很近，如果冰破了他还能站在浅水里。」 It doesn't. So he stands on the ice, but now he's still so close to the edge that if he broke through he'd put on his hanged feet.
「所以他站在冰上，上下跳了跳，敲了敲冰面，看看是否会塌陷。」 So he stands on the ice, he kind of bounces up and down and taps the ice to see if it's going to fall in.
「冰没有塌陷。他走得更远一些，比他刚开始离开岸边时走得更远。」 And it doesn't. He walks a little farther out into the icy ice than maybe where he felt when he was moving away from himself.
「他并没有处于太大的危险中，但他走得非常小心，倾听是否有裂缝的声音。」 He's not in too much danger, but he walks very carefully, listening for cracks.
「他没有听到任何声音，于是又跳了跳。」 It doesn't hear anything, and it jumps up and down a little bit.
「好的，没问题，冰面似乎是安全的。」 Okay, no problem, the ice seems to be safe.
「他走到他想钓鱼的地方，在那里测试冰面，看起来是安全的。」 He walks out farther to the place where he wants to fish, tests the ice there, it seems to be safe.
「所以他在冰上凿了一个洞，在凿洞的过程中，他发现冰层很厚。」 So he cuts a hole in the ice, and in cutting a hole in the ice, he finds that the ice itself is a toothpick.
「厚得足以随时承载他的皮卡车。」 Well thick enough to hold up his pickup truck at any time.
「所以他回到岸边，上了车，把车开到冰面上， 搭起他的小棚子，享受90天的冰钓时光。」 So he goes back to the shore, gets in his truck, drives his truck out onto the ice, sets up his shack, and enjoys the 90 days of ice fishing.
「这就是巴尼。」 That's Barney.
「现在，弗雷德也想去冰钓。」 Now, Fresh also wants to go ice fishing.
「弗雷德把他的装备装进皮卡车，把他的小棚子放在皮卡车后面，然后开车去湖边。」 Fred loads his gear in his pickup truck, and he puts his little shack in the back of the pickup truck without equipment, and he drives to the lake.
「当他到达湖边时，他摇下车窗，探出头看了看 ，心想看起来没问题，就直接开车上了冰面。」 When he gets to the edge of the lake, he rolls out of the window and sticks his head out, thinks, that looks okay, and he drives right out onto the ice.
「他刚下车，就听到一声巨大的破裂声，他刚好来得及跑开 ，就看到他的皮卡车、冰钓棚和所有装备都沉到了湖底。」 And he gets out of the truck, and the next thing he hears is that great cracking sound, and he's just able to run away in time to see his pickup truck and his ice fishing shaft and all the gear sink to the bottom of the lake.
「现在问题是，谁的信心更大，弗雷德还是巴尼？」 Now the question is, who had more faith, Fred or Barbara?
「谁的信心更强？」 Whose faith was stronger?
「答案是显而易见的。」 The answer is obvious.
「弗雷德有更多的信心。」 Fred had more faith.
「弗雷德对那冰有更多的信心，他完全不怀疑冰能承载他。」 Fred had more faith in that ice, and he had no doubt at all that the ice was going to hold him up.
「但结果如何？」 But what happened?
「冰没有承载住他。他把信心放在了错误的事物上。」 It didn't. He put his faith in the wrong thing.
「现在，就他所知，他的信心更加谨慎了。」 Now, far as he knew, his faith was more tentative.
「但通过测试，他的信心随着时间增长。当他测试 冰面并走得越来越远时，他的信心也在增长。」 But it grew by testing him, and over time, As he tested the ice and went farther and farther out onto the lake, his faith grew.
「你知道，人们常说信心就像肌肉，通过拉伸而增长，这是对的，对吧？」 You know, it's true what they say, that faith is like a muscle, and it grows by stretching, right?
「所以，对正确信仰对象的一点点信心会随着时间而增长。」 So a little bit of faith in the right object of faith will grow over time.
「对错误对象的大量信心就像在薄冰上行走。」 A lot of faith in the wrong object is like walking on thin ice.
「所以你看，你知道，这个故事的寓意当然是，弗雷德有很多很多的信心。」 So you see, you know, the moral of the story, of course, is that, you know, Fred had lots and lots of faith.
「他的信心很强。」 His faith was strong.
「但他把信心放在了错误的事物上。」 But he put his faith in the wrong thing.
「巴尼只有一点点信心。」 Barney had a little bit of faith.
「你可以说是芥菜种子大小的信心。」 The size of a 100 feet, you might say.
「但他的信心放在了值得信赖的事物上。」 But his faith was placed in something trustworthy.
「所以他把我们的信心放在了唯一值得信赖的神身上。」 And so he placed our faith in the one and only trustworthy God.
「所以，即使是对我们值得信赖的神的一点点信 心，也比对其他任何事物的大量信心要好。」 And so even a little bit of faith in our God, who is worthy of our faith, is better than a lot of faith in anything else.
「我知道你认识那些不断寻找其他事物来寄托信心的人，比如塔罗 牌、星座运势、通灵读心、政治运动，我刚看到一个新的广告。」 And I know you know people who search and search and search for other things to put their faith in, like tarot cards, horoscopes, psychic readings, political causes, I just saw a commercial for a new one.
「它叫什么来着？」 What was it called?
「加州通灵，类似这样的名字。」 California Psychic, something like this.
「广告中有人作证，说他们对通灵读心的结果非常满意，仿佛亲眼所见。」 And it had testimonies by people who were so happy about the psychic reading that they could just see it.
「你知道，他们会想，哦，我的通灵师。」 And, you know, thinking like, oh, my psychic.
「我简直不敢相信她对我的未来知道得这么多。」 I couldn't believe how much she knew about my future.
「或者，你知道，就是那些常见的、公平的事情，任何人都可以告诉他们他们想听的话。」 Or, you know, the usual, fair things that, you know, anyone can tell them what they want to hear.
「你知道，我上周第一次见到我妻子，因为我嫉妒她。」 And, you know, I met, first, my wife last week, because I'm jealous of her.
「她太生气了。」 She's just so mad.
「但他们在寻找其他事物来寄托信心。」 But they're looking for other things to put their faith in.
「他们似乎在拼命寻找除了神之外的任何事物来寄托信心。」 It's almost as though they're clawing over themselves to find anything else to put their faith in other than God.
「也许是因为他们害怕神，因为他们不知道不健康的恐惧和健康的敬畏之间的区别。」 Maybe it's because they're afraid of God, because they don't know the difference between the unhealthy fear and the healthy fear.
「但请记住，我们谈到的健康的敬畏，是一种认识到我们在神面前位置的敬畏。」 But remember, the healthy fear that we talked about, reverence, it's a fear that recognizes our place before God.
「神是一个令人敬畏的奥秘。」 That God is an awesome mystery.
「但这种敬畏也信靠神，因为我们相信神是良善的，永恒 地爱我们，不变地爱我们，不变地怜悯和同情我们。」 But it's a fear that also trusts in God, because we believe that God is good and eternally loving, unchangeably loving, unchangeably merciful and compassionate for us.
「这基本上就是信心的本质。」 That's basically what faith is.
「相信神并信靠神。」 Believing in God and trusting in God.
「所以信心是信念，但仅有信念是不够的，因为如果我们仅仅把信心等同于知道 正确的事情，我们知道的正确事情还不够多，而且我们有一半时间是错的。」 So faith is belief, but belief alone is not good enough, because again, if we just make faith about knowing the right things, we don't know enough of the right things, and we're wrong half the time.
「而且我们会把那些不像我们知道那么多的人抛在后面。」 And we would leave behind those who don't know as much as we do.
「所以作为信念的信心是好的，但信念加上信任的信心更加完整。」 So faith as belief is good, but faith as belief plus trust, that is more complete.
「这种信心会带来盼望。」 And this kind of faith leads to hope.
「这种信心，带有信任的信心，会带来盼望。」 This kind of faith, faith with trust, leads to hope.
「而盼望是这个世界更需要的东西。」 And hope is something the world needs more of.
「我们生活在一个盼望太少的世界里。」 We live in a world where there's far too little hope to go around.
「明晚我会更多地谈论即时的盼望。」 Now tomorrow night I'm going to be talking more about immediate kinds of hope.
「但现在，我所说的盼望是我称之为大局盼望的东西。」 But for now, the hope I'm talking about is what I call big picture hope.
「大局盼望。」 Big picture hope.
「这是对一位永远良善、永远慈爱的神的信念。」 It's the belief in a God who is always good and always loving.
「这是把我们的信任放在那位神的应许上。」 And it's putting our trust in the promises of that God.
「这些应许引向永生。」 Promises that lead to eternal life.
「永生，你知道，我们在这一生中能得到的一些最大的祝福属于和好的范畴。」 Eternal life You know, some of the greatest blessings that we can have in this life fall under the category of reconciliation.
「与我们长时间没见的亲人和好。」 Reconciliation with loved ones we haven't seen for a long time.
「与我们曾经不和的人和好，与那些从天堂坠落的人和好。」 Reconciliation with people who we've had falling out, who have fallen out of heaven and we've reconciled.
「和好圣事，在那里我们经历神的恩典和宽恕，罪疚的重担从我们肩上卸下。」 The sacrament of reconciliation, where we experience God's grace and forgiveness, and the burden of guilt lifted from our shoulders.
「但我相信永生是和好的平方。」 But I believe that eternal life is reconciliation squared.
「这是一种指数级更大的和好形式。」 It is an exponentially greater form of reconciliation.
「因为永生是与我们的神和好，正如保罗告诉我们 的，我们将以神现在认识我们的方式认识神。」 Because eternal life is reconciliation with our God, where, as Paul told us, we will know God the way God now knows us.
「永生也是与所有在我们之前离世的人和好。」 And eternal life is reconciliation with all those people who have gone before us.
「天堂是一次重聚。」 Heaven is a reunion.
「你知道吗？」 Did you know that?
「你可能知道，但也许你没听我这样说过。」 You probably did, but maybe you haven't heard me say it quite like that.
「天堂是一次重聚。」 Heaven is a reunion.
「这就是我所说的那种视角。」 And so that's the kind of perspective that I'm talking about.
「这就是我们可以牢记的大局观，它给我们带来盼望。」 That's the kind of big picture that we can keep in mind that gives us hope.
「这种基于神的爱的盼望，能驱除恐惧。」 And that's the kind of hope, based on God's love, that casts out fear.
「如果可以的话，我想再唱一首歌。」 I'm going to do another song, if that's alright.
「我觉得你现在可以听每一个福音了，所以也许这样不太好。」 I feel like you can listen to each gospel now, so maybe that's not better.
「你们要休息，要知道我是神。」 Be still and know that I am God.
「当生命失去时，去寻求庇护和祷告。」 Go refuge and pray when the life is lost.
「无需恐惧。」 There is no need to fear.
「音乐将被省略。」 Music will be omitted.
「在主的眼中，有一位新的安静的主。」 In the eye of the Lord, there's a new quiet Lord.
「我们活着，知道我们的神是神。」 We live and know that our God is God.
「我们按他的旨意生活和行动。」 We live and act by His will.
「有一条生命之河从高处流下。」 There's a river of life that flows from on high.
「音乐将被省略。」 Music will be omitted.
「所有的创造都宣告主的伟大作为，音乐将被省略。」 All creation proclaims the great work of the Lord, Music will be omitted.
「音乐将被省略。」 Music will be omitted.
「好的。」 All right.
「我看到这里有一只手举起来，是的。」 I see a hand here, yes.
「我本打算把它从你那里拿走。」 I was planning to take it away from you.
「谢谢你。」 Thank you.
「我喜欢这个，它谈到了你之前说的一些事，它向我揭示了真理，为什么 他们继续前进而不是去犯罪，最终只是安静下来达到那种敬虔的程度？」 And I love that, and it talks about that, something you said earlier, it brings truth to me, why did they go on and not go and sin and end up doing just quieting down to that point of Godliness?
「嗯，是的，对的，对的。」 Well, yeah, right, right.
「我想你已经回答了这个问题。」 And I think you answered the question.
「你在倾听神的声音，而不是你自己的声音。」 You're listening to the voice of God, not your own voice.
「所以当你向内寻求时，按你所说的方式，你是在与 你内在的圣灵连接，因此你是在倾听神的声音。」 And so when you go within, in the way you're talking about it, you're connecting with the Holy Spirit within you, so you are listening to the voice of God.
「但你必须承认这不是来自于你自己。」 But you have to acknowledge that it's not coming from you.
「换句话说，如果我想要开悟，我想要的是从外部来到我这里 的东西，是当我读经、祷告时从神那里来到我这里的东西。」 In other words, if I want enlightenment, what I want is something that comes to me from the outside, something that comes to me from God while I read scripture, I pray.
「我不敢妄自认为这是来自于我。」 I don't presume to think that it's coming from me.
「诺斯替的说法是，你知道，它来自于你，在你 内心，在我内心，任何在你自身之外的东西。」 The Gnostic way of saying it, you know, it comes from you, within you, within me, anything outside of yourself.
「但实际上它源于你自己。」 But then it really originates with you.
「所以，再说一次，这是一种把自己变成自己的更高存在的方式，对吧？」 So, again, it's a way of sort of making yourself your own higher earth, right?
「你自己的更高力量。」 Your own higher power.
「所以，谢谢你让我澄清这一点。」 So, but thanks for asking me to clarify that.
「嗯，我原本计划开放提问环节，我很乐意回答问题。」 Um, I was planning on opening up for questions, and I'm happy to take questions.
「嗯，你不必局限于我到目前为止谈到的内容，因为我指向那个术语，我希望你也是。」 Um, you don't have to stick with what I've talked about so far, because I'm pointing to that term, and I hope you do too.
「嗯，当我明天回来时，我会从我停下的地方继续。」 Um, when I come back tomorrow, I'm going to pick up where I left off.
「你能再重复一遍吗？」 Would you just again repeat?
「两种信心。」 The two kinds of faith.
「嗯，这两种信心实际上是一种建立在另一种之上的。」 Well, the two kinds of faith are really one builds on the other.
「所以第一种是作为信念的信心，接受教义，接受信仰的内容。」 So the first kind was faith as belief, accepting doctrine, accepting the content of the faith.
「所以当你诵读信经时，你是在接受信经的内容。」 So when you say the creed, you're accepting the content of the creed.
「第二种信心更进一步，建立在第一种之上。」 The second kind of faith takes it one step further, builds on the other.
「这是否是另一种谈论我们过去认为的简单信心的方式？」 Is that another way of talking about what we used to think of as simple faith?
「我可以走进来，低头，请求宽恕我的罪，这与知识体系和信仰的理性信心相对。」 I can walk in, I bow my head, Forgive me a sin, as opposed to the intellectual faith of the intellectual systems and the belief.
「但多年来，我在这里看到了一种盲目的信心，一种简单的信心，一种将自己托 付给神的信心，但也经常被视为迷信、仪式或只是习俗，就是你做事的方式。」 But I've seen here, over the years, sort of a blind faith, sort of a simple faith, sort of a entrusting myself to God, but also seen, many times, as a superstition, or ritual, or just a custom, the way you do things.
「这似乎非常忠诚。」 And it seems to be very faithful.
「我们在这里寻找的关键是平衡。」 The key that we're looking for here is balance.
「所以我们的信心不仅仅是相信关于神的某些事。」 So that our faith is more than just believing something about God.
「但同时，它也不仅仅是仪式和公式，它是什么。」 But also, it is also more than just rituals and formulas, what that is.
「它建立在传统之上，建立在教会的教义之上。」 It's built on tradition, it's built on the doctrines of the church.
「但同时，我们也不必始终理解教会的所有教义，所以这是其中的一部分是件好事。」 But at the same time, we don't necessarily have to consistently understand all the doctrines of the church either, so it's a good thing that that is a part of it.
「是的，有问题吗？」 Yeah, questions?
「是的，事实上它确实可以反过来运作。」 Yes, it certainly can work the other way, in fact.
「有一句著名的话通常归功于圣安瑟伦，这句话是，信心寻求理解。」 There's a famous statement that St. Anselm usually credited with, the statement is, faith-seeking understanding.
「换句话说，正是你所说的，从另一个方向工作，从信任开始，然后试图更多地了解神。」 In other words, exactly what you're talking about, working in the other direction, starting with the trust and then trying to learn more about God.
「从某种程度上说，这就是基督徒生活在很多方面的意义所在。」 And that really, in a way, is what the Christian life is about in a lot of ways.
「我们从某个地方开始，无论从哪里开始，我们都试图在前进的过程中更多地理解它。」 We begin someplace, wherever we begin, and we try to understand it more as we go.
「就像我说的，圣安瑟伦通常对此持批评态度，但圣奥古斯丁说了类似的话，简单地 说，你不能只是学习某事然后希望有一天你会知道得足够多，死亡会转变为信心。」 Like I said, St. Anselm was usually really critical of that, but St. Augustine said something very similar, simply that you can't learn about something and then hope that someday you'll know enough The death will turn into faith.
「不是说知识会自动转变为信心，但可能发生的是信心始于信心，然后知识从中增长。」 Not that knowledge will automatically turn into faith, but it could happen that faith can begin with faith and then knowledge grows from it.
「所以它不能两种方式都行得通。」 So it can't work either way.
「确实如此。博士，如果你能重复一下问题，因为后面的人听不到。」 And it certainly doesn't. Doctor, if you could repeat the questions because they can't hear them from the back.
「好的，我总是忘记这么做。」 Alright, I always forget to do that.
「我会尽量重复问题。」 I will try to repeat the questions.
「是的，对此我很抱歉。」 Yeah, sorry about that.
「好的，我看到这里有一个问题，那边还有一个。」 Okay, so I see one here and one over there.
「好的，这不是这次谈话核心的问题。」 Okay, this is not a question from the heart of this conversation.
「我想祝贺你，你是我们最需要的人。」 I wish to congratulate you, you are the one we need the most.
「在我们的社会中，他们有一种独特性，世俗性，我们只理解，我们只有我们 的职业带给我们的，并为我们的家庭和我们对某些方面的信仰传播信息。」 In our society, they have a singularity, wordly, and we only understand, we just have what our profession took us, and spread the word for our family and for our faith in something square.
「神不能改变他的方式来适应那些不可增殖的、圣灵的圣工。」 God cannot change his ways to the unproliferable, holy works of the Holy Spirit.
「你不相信什么？」 What don't you believe?
「不要害怕。」 Be not afraid.
「我们的敌人，约翰·圣托马斯，是国度，神的国度。」 Our enemy, John St. Thomas, is kingdom, the kingdom of God.
「好吧，如果你不介意的话，让我们现在回答另一个问题。」 Well, let's take another question now, if you don't mind.
「好的，后面有一个问题。」 Okay, there was a question back there.
「是的，让我们继续回答后面的问题。」 Yeah, let's move on here to the question in the back.
「我只是两年前还有点文盲，所以之前没有收到任何感谢的问题。」 I was just a two years a little bit illiterate, so I didn't get any thank you questions before.
「在某些方面，那是我的错。」 That was, in some things, my fault.
「字幕由Amara.org提供」 Subtitles by the Amara.org
「社区 我们谈论信心和内容，内容就是信心，显然一个九个月大的婴儿没有内容。」 community We talk about faith and content, and content is faith, and obviously someone who's nine months old has no content.
「所以请帮我理解公教会对此的看法。」 And so help me understand the Catholic view on that.
「这就是我们现在为什么这样做，以及我们对此的信念。」 This is why we practice that now, and what we believe about that.
「这个问题是关于公教会对洗礼的理解。」 The question was about the Catholic understanding of baptism.
「我将首先以历史学家的身份回答这个问题，然后再以礼仪专家的身份回答。」 I'm going to answer this as a historian before then as an expert in liturgy.
「这里有一些神职人员可以从礼仪的角度以不同的方式回答这个问题。」 There are clergy around here who can answer it in different ways from the perspective of the liturgy.
「关于洗礼你必须理解的一点是，洗礼是我们的入会圣事。」 One of the things that you have to understand about baptism is that baptism is our sacrament of initiation.
「所以，虽然希伯来人有某些方式将成员引入他们的 社区，我们有洗礼来引导人们进入我们的社区。」 So, whereas the Hebrew people had certain visions to initiate employees into their community, we have baptism to initiate people into our community.
「我们不会等到他们达到理性年龄才这样做。」 And we don't wait until they are of the age of reason to do that.
「我们不必这样做，因为他们正被引入一个家庭。」 And we don't have to because they're being initiated into a family.
「家庭存在于不同的层面，教会的家庭，父母的家庭。」 Families exist on different levels, families of church, families of parents.
「在这种情况下，这很有趣，因为我们正在谈论信心。」 And in this case, this is interesting because we're talking about faith.
「在婴儿洗礼的情况下，我们依赖的是我们称之为代理信心的东西，换句话说，我们 依赖父母和担保人的信心来在信仰社区中抚养孩子，直到孩子能够自己接受信仰。」 In the case of infant baptism, We are relying on what we call vicarious faith, in other words, we're relying on the faith of the parents and sponsors to raise a child in faith community and to get to the point where that child will accept faith for him or herself.
「在那时，孩子将接受坚振礼。」 At that point, the child will be confirmed.
「在教会最早期，洗礼和坚振礼是一回事。」 In the earliest days of the Church, Baptism and Confirmation were one thing.
「一个人受洗后，主教通过按手，通常还会用圣油来确认洗礼。」 A person was baptized, and then the baptism was confirmed by the bishop with the laying on of hands, and often with the sacred oil.
「因此，一旦教会...这与越来越多的儿童接受洗礼有关。」 And so, once the church It had to do with more and more child children into baptism.
「罗马公教会最终决定将洗礼和坚振礼分为两个独立的仪式， 这样坚振礼就会包括年龄足够大能够自己做出选择的孩子。」 The decision was made eventually in the Roman Church to separate baptism and conservation into two separate rites, so that the conservation event would include the child old enough to make that choice for himself.
「但是，你知道，在教会的早期阶段，新约教会，有很多 反对洗礼的情况，因为当时没有太多第二代基督徒。」 But, you know, in the early stages of the Church, the New Testament Church, there were a lot of anti-Baptisms because there weren't very many second-generation Christians.
「我的意思是，人们是作为成年人来到教会的。」 I mean, people were coming to the Church as adults.
「有几个例子我们可以看到整个家庭或家族或团体一起受洗。」 There are a couple of instances where we can see households or families or initiatives all together.
「但大多数情况下，儿童洗礼...在3世纪有一场关于洗礼的大争议，我现在无法 深入讨论，这很有趣，但最终我们对洗礼的理解...某种程度上回到了那时做出的 一些决定，关于洗礼将会是什么，它将对所有年龄的人开放，而且不能重复。」 But for the most part, Baptism in children's instances There's a whole controversy over baptism in the 3rd century, which I can't get into now, it's very interesting, but ultimately our understanding of baptism Sort of going back to that, to some of the decisions that were made then about what baptism was going to be, that it was going to be available to people of all ages, and that it was not something that could be repeated.
「所以洗礼一旦完成就永远不能重复，因为即使是在基础之下完成的洗礼，通常当我 们有教会时它也是有效的，因为在基督的身体中，跨越所有教派，只有一个疫苗。」 So baptism to be done is never to be repeated, because even baptism to be done in and under the foundation Usually it will be valid when we have the church, and because there is one vaccine in the body of Christ across all denominations.
「这就是我现在能做的最好解释了。」 So this is about the best I can do now.
「你说你将信心定义为一种信念，就像信经中那样。」 You said that you were defining faith as a belief, as in the creed.
「你用信经作为例子，对吧？」 You used the creed as an example, right?
「你说的是尼西亚信经，对吧？」 You said the Nicene Creed, right?
「所以他们在尼西亚举行了那次会议。」 So they had that council in Nicaea.
「你能简单地把你所说的与你为什么这么说联系起来吗？」 Can you tie what you're saying, just kind of briefly, to why you said that?
「我是说，对于信仰来说？」 I mean, for the faith?
「所以也许你是说从尼西亚会议开始，我们得到了我们的信 仰信经，那是我们在4世纪定义我们信仰信经的地方。」 So maybe from that Council of Nicaea you're saying that's where we get our faith creed, that's where we defined our faith creed in the 4th century.
「是的，所以问题是回到尼西亚信经，它来自4世纪初3 25年的尼西亚会议，并将其与我所说的联系起来。」 Yes, so the question was to go back to the 19 creed, which comes from the Council of Nicaea in the early 4th century, period 325, and to tie that back to what I was saying.
「尼西亚会议所做的...在写那个信经时，你知道的信经实际上是两 个不同会议的产物，一个在325年，一个在381年。但是会议实际 上做的是澄清教会一直以来所相信的，但已经成为争论的内容。」 What the Council of Nicaea did In writing that creed, and the creed you know is that the 19th creed is actually a product of two separate calendars, one in 325 and one in 381. What the Council actually did though was to clarify what the Church had always believed and had believed all along, but had come under debate.
「这与基督的神性以及圣父神和圣子耶稣基督之间的关系有很大关系。」 And it has a lot to do with the divinity of Christ and the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
「你知道，那个对你来说可能很新的词，那个词...实际上是整 个神职人员的关键，因为它准确定义了圣父和圣子之间的关系。」 And, you know, that word that might seem new to you, the word, That is actually the linchpin of the entire priest, because it defines exactly the relationship between the Father and the Son.
「圣父和圣子是同质的。」 The Father and the Son are not substantial.
「现在，有多少人因神父的变化而感到烦恼？」 Now, how many people were annoyed by the change in the priest?
「来吧，举手。」 Come on, pass up.
「字幕由Amara.org提供」 Subtitles by the Amara.org
「社区 老实说，那个词是给教会的礼物。」 community Honestly, that word is a gift to the church.
「你可能不这么认为，但事实如此，因为当我与那些抱怨它的人交谈时，」 You may not think so, but it is, because as I talk to people, who have complained about it.
「我已经和朋友们反复进行过这样的对话。」 And I've had this conversation with friends over and over again.
「他们说，哦，同质，没人知道那是什么意思。」 They say, oh, consubstantial, nobody knows what that means.
「我说，等等，你知道一体是什么意思吗？」 And I say, wait, did you know what one is being meant?
「他们说，当然知道。」 And they say, sure.
「他们试图告诉我，但他们实际上并不知道它的意思。」 And they try to tell me, but they really didn't know what it meant.
「我总是说，同质这个词是给教会的礼物，因为它迫使我们讨论它并谈论它的含义。」 And I always say, the word consubstantial is a gift to the church because it forces us to talk about it and talk about what it means.
「其实并不那么难理解，对吧？」 And it's really not that difficult, right?
「同质实际上意味着一件事，但那是一件额外的事，所以是两件事。」 Consubstantial means really one thing, but that's one additional thing, so two things.
「同样的神性，同样的永恒。」 Same divinity, same eternity.
「就是这样。」 That's it.
「圣父和圣子，还有部分圣灵，但我还没有完全理清楚。」 The Father and the Son, and a part of the Spirit too, but I haven't quite sorted that out yet.
「对我来说，圣父和圣子在同一永恒中是一样的。」 The Father and the Son are the same to me through the same eternity.
「这在四世纪并不是新事物。」 And that wasn't new in the fourth century.
「这是教会从一开始就教导的，但曾经有过争论， 有些人想质疑它，这整个大事，但它是可怕的。」 That is what the Church has taught from the beginning, but there had been debate over it, and some people wanted to question it, and this whole big thing, but it was terrifying.
「在澄清耶稣基督和圣父神之间的关系时，教会定义了其信仰，并将其写入信经，会 议给了我们一些具体的东西，我们现在继续说它有，我们可以记住并试图理解。」 In clarifying that relationship between Jesus Christ and God the Father, the Church defines its belief, and in putting it into a creed, the Council gave us something concrete that we now continue to say it has, and that we can memorize and try to understand.
「这回答了你的问题吗？」 Does that get at what you were asking?
「我认为他们当时在做的是试图弄清楚神是否完全是人性的，完全是神性的。」 I think what they were doing was they were trying to figure out whether God is fully human, fully divine.
「你是说耶稣基督是否是神。」 You mean whether Jesus Christ is God or not.
「没错。」 Exactly.
「是的，但这不是从一开始，从教会最早的日子就有的问题。」 Yes, but that isn't a question from the very beginning, from the earliest days of church.
「真正的问题是这个。」 The real question is this.
「等一下。」 Wait a minute.
「你说你是一神论者，但你崇拜耶稣。」 You say you're monotheist and you worship Jesus.
「这怎么可能？」 How does that work?
「这才是教会必须回答的真正问题。」 That was the real question that the church had to answer.
「你如何声称自己是一神论者，同时又崇拜耶稣？」 How do you claim to be monotheist and also worship Jesus?
「而答案...所以这个问题就是三位一体的教义。」 And the answer So that question is the doctrine of the Trinity.
「所以，你知道，这是早期就理解的东西，但只是在某个时候才被澄清。」 And so, you know, that was something that was understood early on, but only clarified at one time.
「有问题吗？」 Questions?
「是的。」 Yeah.
「哦，好的，所以有两种恐惧。」 Oh, okay, so there's two types of fear.
「其中一种是恐惧...」 The one was fear...
「恐惧，嗯，按照克莱门特·亚历山大的描述，是带有温 顺的恐惧，是被压迫者可能对暴君感到的那种恐惧。」 Fear, well, the way Clement Alexander describes it, is fear with meekness, the kind of fear that an oppressed person might feel toward a tyrant.
「但我将其描述为没有信任的恐惧。」 But I describe it as fear without trust.
「然后另一种恐惧，好的那种恐惧，是带有信任的恐惧，我更愿意称之为敬畏。」 And then the other kind of fear, the good kind of fear, is fear with trust, which I prefer to call reverence.
「这种敬畏是认识到我们在神面前的位置，认识 到我们在任何时候都与神接近的那种恐惧。」 The reference is the kind of fear that recognizes our place before God, that recognizes that we are near to God in time and all times.
「那么没有信任的恐惧，是否与一个优雅地走过 并告诉你优雅的好消息和坏消息的人有关？」 And the fear without trust, is that related to like a person who is like a graceful walking by and telling you a graceful good and bad news?
「这是一种没有信任的恐惧吗？」 Is that a fear without trust?
「这就是我不能诱惑的原因。」 That's what I couldn't be enticing.
「问题是，这种没有信任的恐惧，是否是你可能在非斯图尔 特主义情况下发现的东西，比如有人害怕独自走在街上？」 The question was, is this fear without trust, is that something that you might find, you know, in maybe a non-stuartist situation, like someone who's afraid to walk down the street alone?
「是的，那是它的一个大版本。」 Yes, that's a big version of it.
「嗯，你有的任何种类的恐惧都是因为你不信任。」 Well, any kind of fear that you have is because you don't trust.
「那就是没有信任的恐惧。」 That's the fear without trust.
「是的，我们都会在这里。」 Yeah, we'll all be in here.
「我只是在问你一些聪明的事情。」 I'm just asking you smart things.
「所以我想这就是为什么我要在这里把话题转向牧师。」 So I guess that's why I'm going to turn it here to Reverend.
「是的，这里有一个。」 Yes, one here.
「在观察教会历史的展开过程中，有一件事让我感触很深，我是从犹太教到 无神论再到公教会的皈依者，所以作为一个外来者，我能以一种非凡的方式 看待事物，我开始以你描述的方式看待教会，它是一个有机的教会。」 In watching the unfolding of the history of the Church, one of the things that comes to me, and I am a convert from Judaism to Atheism to the Catholic Church, and so as coming in from the outside, I get to see things in a remarkable way, and I come to see the Church the way you're describing it, It's an organic church.
「这是一个真理永不改变的教会，但我们对真理的理解和我们在真理中的 生活，也就是在耶稣基督里的生活，确实会改变，会成长，会成熟。」 It's a church where the truth never changes, but our understanding and our life in the truth, which is Jesus Christ, does change, does grow, does mature.
「当你谈论信心时 音乐将被省略！」 And when you talk about faith Music will be omitted!
「我相信并尽可能地思考我的词汇，因为我实际上希望神为我思考和相信。」 I believe and I think as much as possible for my vocabulary, because I want God, in effect, to do my thinking and believing for me.
「我想要使自己符合，而不是为自己塑造。」 I want to conform myself, not form for myself.
「这就是我所看到的教会的美，就是信任神给予我们的。」 And that's what I see as a beauty of the Church, is trusting in what God has given us.
「我喜欢你说教会是一个有机体，这些东西在其中成长的方式。」 I like the way you said that the church is an organic within which these things grow.
「信心在成长。」 Faith grows.
「信任在成长。」 Trust grows.
「盼望在成长。」 Hope grows.
「也许这是一个很好的方式来总结现在的一切，然后我们明天可以再继续讨论。」 And maybe that's a good way to sort of wrap it all up for now, and then we can pick this up again tomorrow.
「但是这样想，教会是所有这些事物成长的地方。」 But think of it this way, that the church is The place in which all of these things grow.
「共鸣，甚至共鸣也在成长。」 Resonance, even resonance grows.
「信心在成长。」 Faith grows.
「盼望在成长。」 Hope grows.
「明天我们将讨论和平。」 And tomorrow we'll talk about peace.
「所以我要在这里结束，我实际上要通过门厅观察。我那里有一个播放列表，所以如 果你有更多问题或想和我交谈，我有书和CD出售，如果你想买任何东西的话。」 So I'm going to close there and I'm actually going to watch out through the vestibule And I've got a playlist up there, so if you have more questions or want to talk to me, I've got books and CDs for sale if you want to buy anything.
「我会在那里。」 I'll be out there.
「另外，你进来时收到了一张传单。」 Also, you were given a flyer when you came in.
「那是我最新书的原始传单。」 That is the original flyer for my latest book.
「那本书已经出版了，如果你想在亚马逊上购买的话。」 That book is out, if you want it on Amazon.
「但我实际上想让你拿着那张传单，因为上面有我的网站，我也在F acebook和Twitter以及所有那些类似的平台上。」 But I actually wanted you to have that flyer because it has my website on it, and I'm on Facebook and Twitter and all those kind of things.
「所以你有所有那些联系信息。」 So you have all that contact information.
「所以那真的就是为了这个。」 So that's just really for that.
「否则，再说一遍，我会在桌子外面。」 Otherwise, again, I'll be outside the table.
「谢谢。」 Thank you.