大家好。 Hi, folks.
欢迎回到「原始教会」节目。 Welcome back to The Original Church.
神会受苦或随时间改变吗？ Does God suffer or change over time?
原始教会有类似过程神学的东西吗？ Did The Original Church have anything like process theology?
这其实是两个话题合在一起。 Well, this is really two topics in one.
首先，让我们谈谈神的属性。 First, let's talk about the attributes of God.
在此之前，我们必须打破另一个神话，就是所谓基督教希腊化的神话，对吧？ And before we can do that, we have to bust another myth, the myth of the so-called Hellenization of Christianity, right?
希腊化意味着这个神话提出在基督教受希腊哲学和希腊思 想影响而变质之前，曾有一个更加犹太化的原始版本。 Hellenization means This myth proposes that there was some original, more Jewish version of Christianity before it became corrupted by the influence of Greek philosophy and Greek thought.
但这只是个神话。 But this is a myth.
这根本不是真的，而且已经被彻底揭穿了。 It's just not true, and it's been thoroughly debunked.
所以，现在我只想说这一点。 And so, right now, I'll just say this.
原始基督教并不比现在更加犹太化。 Original Christianity was not more Jewish than it is now.
曾有一派想要这样。 There was a faction that wanted that.
我们称他们为犹太教化者。 We refer to them as the Judaizers.
我们在新约中看到他们。 We see them in the New Testament.
这些就是保罗所反对的所谓假教师，比如在加拉太书中。 These are the so-called false teachers that St. Paul is opposing, like in the letter to the Galatians.
他称他们的教导为另一个福音，也就是假福音。 And he refers to their teaching as another gospel, that is, a false one.
所以认为基督教在开始时更加犹太化是没有道理的。 And so there's no sense that Christianity was more Jewish at the beginning.
事实上，这种观点被拒绝了。 In fact, that was rejected.
关键是早期基督徒确实吸收了希腊哲学，但他们并没有全盘接受希腊思想。 The point is that the early Christians did incorporate Greek philosophy, but they didn't just accept everything from Greek thought.
他们只接受那些与希伯来智慧相符的希腊哲学内容。 They accepted exactly those things from Greek philosophy that were consistent with Hebrew wisdom.
他们利用希腊哲学来吸引希腊罗马文化背景的人接 受基督教，但他们从不容忍任何异教希腊思想。 They used Greek philosophy to invite people from Greco-Roman culture into Christianity, but they never tolerated anything from pagan Greek thought.
一个完美的例子就是所谓的不变性概念。 A perfect example of this is a concept called immutability.
教会从希腊哲学中接受的一个概念就是神的不变性。 One of the things that the church accepted from Greek philosophy is the concept of divine immutability.
这意味着神性是不变的。 This means that divinity is unchanging.
神不会改变。 God does not change.
顺便说一下，并非所有异教神祇都被认为是不变的。 And by the way, not all pagan deities were considered immutable.
有些被认为会经历变化。 Some of them were thought to go through change.
一些异教神祇被认为是由两个先前的异教神祇所生等等 。但无论如何，原始教会接受了神是不变的这一观念。 Some of the pagan deities were thought to be born of two previous pagan deities, etc. But in any case, the original church accepted the idea that God is unchanging.
但他们接受这一点恰恰是因为这正是犹太人所信的。 But they accepted it precisely because that's what Jews believed.
这与希伯来智慧是一致的。 It is consistent with Hebrew wisdom.
对希伯来人来说，神是不变的，我们可以在旧约中找到许多相关经文 ，但关键是神不变这一事实是好消息，因为这意味着神是可信赖的。 For the Hebrews, God is unchanging, and there are a bunch of Old Testament passages we could look to, but the point is that the fact that God doesn't change is good news, because it means that God is trustworthy.
你看，对许多希腊罗马神祇来说，这些神是反复无常的，是骗子，是不可信赖的。 You see, for many of the Greco-Roman deities, the gods were fickle, they were tricksters, and they couldn't be trusted.
事实上，他们会从事不道德的行为，有时甚至变换形态来诱 惑人类等等。但显然，犹太人和基督徒的神不是这样的。 In fact, they engage in immoral behavior, sometimes changing form to seduce a human, etc. But the God of the Jews and the Christians is not like that, obviously.
这位神，真正的神，是公义的、可信赖的，并且信守承诺。 This God, the real God, is just and trustworthy and keeps his promises.
这在希伯来文本中通过神的慈爱、神的怜悯或神的信实等概念表现出来。 And it comes through in the Hebrew text with concepts like God's loving kindness, or God's mercy, or God's faithfulness.
所以要点是我们的神是可信赖的，因为他是不变的。 So the point is that our God can be trusted because he is unchanging.
神是不变的，因此神是可信赖的。 God is immutable and therefore God is trustworthy.
现在，这也意味着神不会受苦，不是我们所理解的 那种受苦，主要是因为受苦是一种变化的形式。 Now, this also means that God does not suffer, not in the way we think of suffering, primarily because suffering is a form of change.
如果神不变，那么神就不会受苦。 And if God doesn't change, then God doesn't suffer.
我的意思是，要受苦，你必须从不受苦变成受苦，或者其他什么变化。 I mean, to suffer, you have to change from not suffering to suffering or whatever.
所以受苦总是一种变化的形式。 And so suffering is always a form of change.
但还有一个更深层的原因，那就是受苦意味着有一个受害者被外力所影响。 But there's an even deeper reason, which is that suffering means that there is a victim who is acted on by an outside force.
受苦就是经历从好变坏的变化，或在某些方面自由受到限制。 To suffer is to go through these changes from better to worse or to be limited in freedom in some ways.
所以这对我们的神来说是不可能的。 And so this is just not possible for our God.
我们的神不可能成为一个受害者，被某种外力违背他的意愿所影响。 Our God can't be a victim who is acted on against His will by some outside force.
这揭示了关于神的不变性的一个重要观点。 And this brings out an important point about God's immutability.
既然神是永恒的，就不能认为神是有限的。神在时间之外，因为时间是被造之物。 Since God is eternal, God cannot be thought to be limited God is outside of time because time is a created thing.
它是创造的一部分。 It's a part of creation.
神在创造之外。 God is outside of creation.
神与创造是分开且不同的。 God is separate and distinct from creation.
所以神在时间之外。 And so God is outside of time.
因此神不像我们一样经历时间。 And so God does not go through time like we do.
因此，不可能说永恒的神会改变，因为改变是时间的函数。 And so therefore, it's impossible for the eternal God to be said to change because change is a function of time.
改变只发生在某人经历时间的过程中。 Change only happens as someone goes through time.
事实上，时间和变化是相互依存的，因为一个只能通过另一个来衡量。 In fact, time and change are interdependent, because one can only be measured by the other.
时间只能通过观察变化来衡量，而变化只能通过追踪时间来衡量。 Time can only be measured by observing change, and change can only be measured by tracking time.
因此，要使变化存在，变化的事物必须在时间流中，受时间限制，并依赖于时间。 And so for change to even exist, the thing that changes must be within the stream of time, limited by time, and dependent on time.
但由于神是永恒的，神在时间之外，神掌管时间，因此神不能改变。 But since God is eternal, God is outside of time, God rules over time, and therefore God cannot change.
既然神不随时间而改变，神也就不能受苦。 And since God doesn't change over time, God also cannot suffer.
因此，我们用来描述这一点的词是神是不受感性的。 And so the word we use for that is God is impassible.
不受感性意味着神不受苦。 Impassible means God doesn't suffer.
现在这也是因为受苦意味着缺乏某些东西。 Now it's also because suffering implies a lack of something.
受苦就是需要某些东西。 To suffer is to need something.
缺少某些东西。 To be lacking something.
而神不能被说成缺乏或需要任何东西，因为神是完美的。 And God cannot be said to lack or need anything because God is perfect.
所以如果神需要什么或缺少什么，或者如果神能被某 种外力影响，那么神就不再完美或全能了，对吧？ And so if God needed anything or lacked anything, or if God could be acted upon by some outside force, then God wouldn't be perfect anymore or omnipotent anymore, right?
这些就是定义我们所说的神的一些神性属性。 And so these are some of the very attributes of divinity that define what we mean by God.
它们告诉我们神是谁。 They tell us who God is.
说实话，我们在描述神是什么时不能走得太远。 Now to be fair, we can't really go very far in describing what God is.
事实上，这些属性是从描述神不是什么开始的。 In fact, these are attributes that kind of begin by describing what God is not.
神不受时间、变化、苦难、缺乏或需求的影响。 God is not subject to time, or to change, or to suffering, a lack, or a need.
神不需要学习或成长，所以神没有变得更好或以任何方式成长的潜力。 God does not need to learn or grow, and so there is no potential in God To get better or to grow in any way.
神没有更多的潜力，因为神已经达到了最大值。 There's no potential for more in God because God is already at the maximum.
神不会感到惊讶。 And God cannot be surprised.
神从不被迫学习任何东西，或必须对任何事做出回应，或必须为任何事制定备用计划。 God is never forced To learn anything, or have to respond to anything, or to have to come up with plan B for anything.
所以，当我们说这些事情时，通过说神不是什么，我们开始理解神是什么。 And so, when we say these things, by saying what God is not, we begin to understand what God is.
好，现在来谈第二个话题，过程神学。 Okay, now for the second topic, process theology.
我们需要在这里退后一步。 We've got to back up a minute here.
无神论者一直用邪恶的问题来反对我们的神。 Atheists have always used the problem of evil to argue against our God.
这个论点是这样的。 The argument goes something like this.
如果神是伟大的，神是善良的，为什么世界上还有邪恶？ If God is great and God is good, why is there evil in the world?
换句话说，如果神真的是全能的，神真的是全善的，为什么神不阻止邪恶？ In other words, if God truly is omnipotent and God truly is omnibenevolent, why doesn't God prevent evil?
现在，我不打算深入回答这个问题。 Now, I'm not going to go too deep into actually answering that question right now.
那是另一个话题，而且已经讨论得很透彻了。 That's another topic, and it's been done to death.
但答案与自由意志或滥用自由意志有关。 But the answer has everything to do with free will, or the misuse of free will.
因为尽管神对我们有完美的旨意，神给了我们自由意志。 Because although God has a perfect will for us, God gives us free will.
神给人类自由意志是因为神就是爱，爱总是自愿的 ，如果我们要爱神，神希望这是出于自由意志。 God gives humanity free will because God is love, Love is always voluntary, and if we're going to love God, God wants it to be by free will.
但为了使人的意志真正自由，我们也必须自由地选 择不爱神，拒绝神，拒绝神的旨意，甚至犯罪。 But in order for human will to truly be free, we have to be free also to choose not to love God, to reject God, to reject God's will, and even to sin.
所以这个问题的答案是，因为人类滥用他们的自由意志，这就是把邪恶带入世界的原因。 So the answer to the question is that because humans misuse their free will, that's what brings evil into the world.
然而，在现代世界，我认为，不管出于什么原因，这种自由意志的答案开始无法满足人们。 Eventually, though, in the modern world, I think, for whatever reason, this answer of free will started to fail to satisfy people.
公平地说，这是一个复杂的问题，因为世界上有些事情看起来像是邪恶的，我 们不想归咎于神，但也不能简单地归因于人类的罪，比如自然灾害、疾病等。 And to be fair, it's a complicated problem, because there are things in the world that seem like evil that we don't want to blame on God, but that can't simply be attributed to human sin, like natural disasters, diseases, things like that.
所以在现代，一些人开始拒绝这个问题的旧答案，但他们努力寻找更好的答案。 So in the modern era, some people started to reject the old answers to the problem, but they struggled to find better answers.
一些人开始说，也许这个问题的答案是神并不像我们想象的那么伟大。 And some people started saying, well, maybe the answer to the question is that God isn't really as great as we thought.
也许神并不真的全能，甚至不是不变的。 Maybe God isn't really omnipotent or even immutable.
也许世界上存在邪恶的原因是因为神无能为力。 Maybe the reason why there's evil in the world is because God can't help it.
也许神不阻止邪恶是因为他做不到。当时有一本非常著名的书。 Maybe God doesn't prevent evil because he can't. Back in the day, there was a very famous book written.
我想是一位拉比写的。 I think it was written by a rabbi.
它叫做《为什么坏事发生在好人身上》。 It was called Why Bad Things Happen to Good People.
当你读到书的结尾，这基本上就是他的论点。 And you get to the end of the book, and that's basically his thesis.
世界上存在邪恶是因为，嗯，神在尽力而为，但他无能为力。 There's evil in the world because, well, God is doing his best, but he can't help it.
我觉得这个答案不令人满意，而且我发现这个答 案直接违背了我们传统上对神是谁的所有信念。 I don't find that answer satisfying, and I find that that answer goes directly against all of what we have traditionally believed about who God is.
好吧，这就引出了过程神学，因为在这个时候，一种全新的神学出现了。 Well, enter process theology, because at this time, a whole new kind of theology emerged.
你知道，我总是告诉我的学生，太阳底下没有新鲜事，今天存在的所有异端都只是早期教会 旧异端的重新包装版本，你知道，现在所有错误的东西都已经被尝试过并被发现是不足的。 And, you know, I always tell my students, there's nothing new under the sun, and all of the heresies that exist today are just repackaged versions of the old heresies from the early church and, you know, everything that's wrong now has been tried and found wanting.
但这是那个规则的一个例外。 But this is the one exception to that rule.
在早期教会时期没有类似过程神学的东西，可能有一个例外，我稍后会提到。 There was nothing like process theology in the time of the early church, with one possible exception, which I'll mention in a minute.
但据我理解，过程神学提出神也在过程中，就像我们一样，神在随时间进化。 But process theology, as I understand it, proposes that God is also in process, just like we are, that God is sort of evolving over time.
在某种程度上，这有点像一些旧的诺斯替主义，它提出旧约的神与新约的神是不同的神。 In a way, it's a bit like some of the old Gnosticism that proposed that the God of the Old Testament was a different God from the God of the New Testament.
幻影说、马吉安派和一些诺斯替派说旧约的创造者是 一个刻薄的神，想要惩罚人类，而且可能是无能的。 The Docetics, the Marcionites, and some of the Gnostics said that the Creator of the Old Testament was a mean God, out to get humanity, and probably incompetent.
但耶稣基督的父是一个不同的神，或者说是一个更好的神。 But the Father of Jesus Christ, that was a different God, or a better God.
现在，过程神学并没有走得那么远，但它确实在某种程 度上暗示旧约中的刻薄神正在变成新约中的更好的神。 Now, process theology doesn't quite go that far, but it does kind of suggest that the mean God of the Old Testament is in the process of becoming the better God of the New Testament.
现在，你知道，这一举动部分是为了解决邪恶的问题。 Now, you know, this move was partly to solve the problem of evil.
你知道，神无法避免创造一个有缺陷的宇宙，但别担心，他正在变得更好。 You know, God couldn't help creating a flawed universe, but don't worry, He's getting better.
他正在努力。 He's working on it.
但是，你知道，这也是为了强调神如何与人类团结一致。 But, you know, it's also meant to try to emphasize how God is in solidarity with humanity.
所以在过程神学中，神不仅在时间流中并在发展过程中，而且神也可以与我们一起受苦。 So in process theology, God is not only within the stream of time and in process of developing, but God can also suffer along with us too.
如果你受苦，神也受苦。 If you suffer, God suffers too.
嗯，这应该是对人们的安慰。 Well, that's supposed to be comforting to people.
事实上，同情这个词的定义也被简化为这种简单的「一起受苦」。 In fact, the very definition of the word compassion is also reduced to this kind of simplistic suffers with.
神怜悯你是因为他与你一同受苦。 God has compassion on you because he suffers with you.
但问题是，如果你生病了，你需要的是医生，而不是一个同病相怜的病友。 But the problem with that is if you're sick, you need a doctor, not a fellow patient.
你需要一位能解决你问题的神，恰恰是因为他不会遭受同样的问题，比如需要改进或成长。 You need a God who can do something about your problems precisely because he does not suffer from the same problems like needing to improve or grow.
所以过程神学通过提出神随时间变化和受苦，将神置于时间的流动中。 So process theology, by proposing that God changes over time and suffers, process theology puts God into the stream of time.
神被假定在时间之内，因此受时间限制，而不是超越时间。 God is assumed to be inside of time and therefore limited by time, not above time.
因此，过程神学试图通过否定我们认识神的神性属性， 并将创造物的属性归于神，来使神看起来更有同情心。 So, process theology tries to make God seem more compassionate by rejecting the very attributes of divinity by which we know who God is and by ascribing attributes of creation to God.
所以，过程神学否定了神的不变性和不受感性，用一 个最终不是永恒的神来替代，因为他不在时间之外。 So, process theology rejects the immutability of God and the impassibility of God and replaces that with a God who is, at the end of the day, not eternal because he's not outside of time.
他在时间之内。 He's inside of time.
这意味着他在创造之内，而不是超越创造。 Which means he is inside of creation, not above it.
这种神在创造之内的概念，被称为泛神论。 And this concept of a God who is within creation, this is called panentheism.
泛神论是一种完全不同的宗教，它认为神在创造之内，而不是与创造分离。 Panentheism is a completely different religion that suggests that God is within creation as opposed to distinct from it.
这是异教。 And it's pagan.
这不是基督教。 It's not Christian.
就像我说的，原始教会并没有类似过程神学的东西，除非你认为过程神 学是当时教会之外存在的某种异教的一个版本，我想这就是我要说的。 Like I said, the original church did not really have anything like process theology unless you consider process theology a version of some form of paganism that existed back then outside of the church, which I guess is what I would say that it is.
因为一个会改变的神不是犹太-基督教信仰的神。 Because a God who changes is not the God of Judeo-Christian faith.
但那位在圣经中，主要是在耶稣基督的道成肉身中启示 自己的神，这位神是可信赖的，恰恰因为他是不变的。 But the God who has revealed himself in the scriptures and primarily in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, this God is trustworthy precisely because he is unchanging.
他是信实的，因为他是不变的。 He's faithful because he's unchanging.
他能成为我们伟大的医生，恰恰是因为他不会遭受我们所遭受的同样问题。 And he can be our great physician precisely because he does not suffer from the same problems that we do.
但需要明确的是，神是不变的和不受感性的这一事实并 不意味着神是冷漠的、缺乏同情心的或与我们疏离的。 But just to be clear, the fact that God is immutable and impassable Does not mean that God is uncaring or lacking in compassion or detached from us.
神并不与我们疏远。 God is not aloof from us.
事实上，恰恰相反。 In fact, it's just the opposite.
神对我们的爱不可能更多，因为神的爱是不变的。 God could not be more loving toward us because God is immutably loving.
神永恒且不变地处于爱的行为和怜悯的最高水平。 God is eternally and immutably at the maximum level of loving activity and compassion.
永远没有更多的空间，因为神已经处于最高水平。 There is no room for more ever because God is already at the maximum.
神没有改进的余地，因为神对人类的怜悯永远处于最高水平。 There is no room for improvement in God because God has eternally been at maximum compassion for humanity.
说神可以发展或处于过程中，就是假设神并非一直都是完美的。 And to say that God could develop or be in process is to assume that God hasn't always been perfect.
神对苦难并非无能为力，这是好消息，对吧？ God is not powerless over suffering, which is good news, right?
因为我们需要一位对我们的苦难不是无能为力的神。 Because we need a God who is not powerless over our suffering.
神是不受感性的，这意味着神不是受害者。 God is impassable, which means that God is not a victim.
当我们受苦时，我们需要一位能对我们的苦难采取行动的神。 And when we suffer, we need a God who can do something about our suffering.
一个可以改变或可以受苦的神会受到这些事物的限制。 A God who could change or who could suffer would be limited by those things.
而真正的神是没有限制的。 And the real God is not limited.
真正的神是无限的和永恒的。 The real God is unlimited and eternal.
现在，在过程神学的世界里，有人会说，一个不能受苦的神就 是一个不能爱的神，因为他们将受苦与同情心联系在一起。 Now there are those in the world of process theology who would say, A God who can't suffer is a God who can't love, because they associate suffering with compassion.
但是原始基督徒，如果我可以代表他们说话的话，会回答说，不，那不是真的。 But the original Christians, if I can speak for them, would reply, no, that's not true.
事实上，他们会说一个不是不变的神就是一个不可信赖的神。 In fact, they would say that a God who is not immutable is a God who is not trustworthy.
感谢您观看这个视频。 Thanks for watching this video.
如果你对这个话题或者早期教会教义的发展感兴趣，请 查看我的书《阅读教父：早期教会历史和教义发展》。 If you're interested in more on this topic or in general on the development of doctrine in the early church, do check out my book, Reading the Church Fathers, A History of the Early Church and the Development of Doctrine.
这本书由索菲亚学院出版社出版。 That's from Sophia Institute Press.
我希望你会查看这本书，我期待在下一个视频中见到你。 I hope you'll check that out, and I look forward to seeing you in the next video.
嘿，感谢观看。 Hey, thanks for watching.
好吧，你知道该怎么做。 Well, you know the drill.
订阅，开启通知，等等等等。 Subscribe, notifications, blah, blah, blah.
但如果你喜欢这个视频，请分享它。 But if you liked this video, please share it.
如果你想要更多，可以考虑购买我的一本或多本书。 And if you want more, consider getting one or more of my books.
或者更好的是，在Locals.com上加入我和原始教会社区。 Or better yet, join me and the original church community on Locals.com.
在那里你可以评论并与我们其他人互动。 There you can comment and interact with the rest of us.
我希望在那里见到你。 I hope to see you there.