- start: 0.489
  end: 6.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, before I go on, I promised you a map.
  zh: 好的，在我继续之前，我答应过给你们一张地图。
- start: 7.714
  end: 16.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This map is something actually a student made a year or so ago, and basically it just shows east and west.
  zh: 这张地图实际上是一年前左右一个学生制作的，基本上它只显示了东方和西方。
- start: 16.059
  end: 25.962
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when I talk about the eastern church versus the western church, or vice versa,  This gives you a visual on what we're talking about.
  zh: 所以当我谈到东方教会与西方教会的对比时，或者反过来说，这给你们一个直观的印象，让你们明白我们在讨论什么。
- start: 25.962
  end: 31.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm just going to hand this out and I'm not really going to say anything else about it.
  zh: 我只是要把这个分发给大家，我不会再多说什么了。
- start: 39.794
  end: 68.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, tonight's agenda, as it were, is I am going to take the first  Lecture tonight, and then Reverend Van Slyke is going to take the second half.
  zh: 好的，今晚的议程是这样的，我将主讲第一堂课，然后范斯莱克牧师将负责下半场。
- start: 68.699
  end: 74.288
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so in the first half we're going to talk about some stuff.
  zh: 所以在上半场我们将讨论一些内容。
- start: 77.809
  end: 80.81
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Do we want to start with a prayer from the early church?
  zh: 我们要以早期教会的祷告开始吗？
- start: 80.81
  end: 86.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Let's see what we've got here.
  zh: 让我们看看这里有什么。
- start: 101.92
  end: 104.082
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I don't remember what we've done.
  zh: 我不记得我们做过什么。
- start: 120.487
  end: 130.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is on that page in the back of your syllabus.
  zh: 这在你们教学大纲后面的那一页上。
- start: 130.711
  end: 133.533
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's the first of the pages that say prayers from the early church.
  zh: 这是标有「早期教会祷告」的第一页。
- start: 133.533
  end: 135.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's the fourth one down.
  zh: 是从上往下数第四个。
- start: 150.32
  end: 152.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is a prayer of Irenaeus.
  zh: 这是爱任纽的一段祷告。
- start: 152.841
  end: 156.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We talked about him last week.
  zh: 我们上周讨论过他。
- start: 157.102
  end: 158.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let's pray together.
  zh: 让我们一起祷告。
- start: 158.923
  end: 164.545
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It is not thou that shapes God, but it is God that shapes thee.
  zh: 不是你塑造神，而是神塑造你。
- start: 164.885
  end: 165.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Amen.
  zh: 阿们。
- start: 191.145
  end: 194.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now that was interesting, because that really isn't addressing God, is it?
  zh: 现在这很有趣，因为这实际上并不是在对神说话，对吧？
- start: 194.548
  end: 198.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's addressing each other, and yet it's considered a prayer.
  zh: 它是在对彼此说话，但却被视为一种祷告。
- start: 199.372
  end: 201.534
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so.
  zh: 好的，那么。
- start: 202.435
  end: 212.583
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, so as you know, we are behind in the schedule as far as the syllabus goes, and it's just going to have to be that way.
  zh: 好的，如你们所知，就教学大纲而言，我们的进度落后了，而且只能这样了。
- start: 212.583
  end: 218.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, we're sort of at week five.
  zh: 所以，我们大概在第五周。
- start: 219.219
  end: 222.34
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It says March 2nd, even though it's March 9th.
  zh: 上面写着3月2日，尽管现在是3月9日。
- start: 222.64
  end: 232.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we're not even going to finish week 5. I'm going to talk about Montanism and the Episcopacy, and then in the second half, we're going to go back and pick up early Christian liturgy.
  zh: 我们甚至不会完成第5周的内容。我将讲述孟他努主义和主教制，然后在下半场，我们将回过头来讨论早期基督教礼仪。
- start: 233.242
  end: 238.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then next week, we're going to do persecution and martyrdom and novation and the Baptist controversy.
  zh: 然后下周，我们将讨论迫害和殉道、诺瓦提安和浸信会争议。
- start: 238.463
  end: 241.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then the following week, we'll do the Great Persecution.
  zh: 再下一周，我们将讨论大迫害。
- start: 241.826
  end: 244.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Your first essay is still down the road a bit.
  zh: 你们的第一篇论文还要等一段时间。
- start: 244.827
  end: 268.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I haven't figured out what date it's going to be yet, but it will be pushed back at least  Maybe two weeks.
  zh: 我还没有确定具体日期，但它至少会推迟两周左右。
- start: 268.475
  end: 273.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'll have to figure that out and send an email out to everyone and just, you know, clarify dates.
  zh: 我需要确定一下，然后给大家发一封电子邮件，你知道的，明确日期。
- start: 273.419
  end: 278.262
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But since we had a snow day, that's part of the problem.
  zh: 但由于我们有一天因下雪停课，这是问题的一部分。
- start: 278.402
  end: 282.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other part is just, you know, the regular stuff.
  zh: 另一部分就是，你知道的，常规的事情。
- start: 283.165
  end: 283.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 283.766
  end: 284.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All right.
  zh: 好了。
- start: 284.586
  end: 289.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, we can go ahead and start if you haven't already.
  zh: 那么，如果你们还没开始的话，我们可以开始了。
- start: 289.63
  end: 290.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Start taping.
  zh: 开始录制。
- start: 290.571
  end: 292.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I guess it's not tape, is it?
  zh: 我猜现在不是用磁带了，对吧？
- start: 292.892
  end: 294.352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's digital nowadays.
  zh: 现在是数字化的了。
- start: 294.352
  end: 296.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I always say, we're taping.
  zh: 我总是说，我们在录制。
- start: 296.713
  end: 297.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's no tape.
  zh: 其实没有磁带。
- start: 298.814
  end: 308.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so we're going to talk about the episcopacy and a related subject, and that is Montanism.
  zh: 好的，我们将讨论主教制度和一个相关的主题，那就是孟他努主义。
- start: 308.337
  end: 311.378
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's what we're going to talk about in the first half of class tonight.
  zh: 这就是我们今晚课程上半场要讨论的内容。
- start: 311.378
  end: 313.899
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How's the volume on the microphone?
  zh: 麦克风的音量如何？
- start: 313.899
  end: 314.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Is it good?
  zh: 声音好吗？
- start: 314.84
  end: 318.961
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Tell me if it's too loud and boomy, because that can be just as annoying as too quiet.
  zh: 如果声音太大太轰鸣请告诉我，因为那和声音太小一样令人烦恼。
- start: 319.901
  end: 321.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so...
  zh: 好的，那么……
- start: 323.84
  end: 350.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We have already talked about the development of the hierarchy and I want to continue that discussion in talking about the  Episcopacy in particular.
  zh: 我们已经讨论过等级制度的发展，我想继续讨论，特别是关于主教制度。
- start: 350.808
  end: 354.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, the episcopacy is the office of bishop.
  zh: 换句话说，主教制度就是主教的职位。
- start: 356.692
  end: 369.441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so we've covered this idea of the difference between hierarchical authority, or apostolic authority, and charismatic authority.
  zh: 我们已经讨论了等级权威或使徒权威与灵恩权威之间的区别。
- start: 369.782
  end: 382.697
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And when we get into the second and third centuries now,  tension between apostolic authority and charismatic authority.
  zh: 当我们进入二、三世纪时，使徒权威和灵恩权威之间出现了紧张关系。
- start: 382.697
  end: 392.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That tension is played out as the episcopacy develops, the office of the bishop, and also then in a fringe movement called Montanism.
  zh: 这种紧张关系随着主教制度的发展而显现，即主教职位的发展，同时也体现在一个边缘运动中，即孟他努主义。
- start: 392.805
  end: 397.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, first let's talk about the office of the bishop.
  zh: 那么，让我们先谈谈主教的职位。
- start: 400.451
  end: 415.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You already know that by the second century, we can already see in Ignatius  Desire to get everybody on board with his program that there should be only one bishop per city.
  zh: 你们已经知道，到了二世纪，我们可以在伊格那丢的著作中看到他希望让每个人都接受他的主张，即每个城市应该只有一位主教。
- start: 415.098
  end: 417.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in his letters he says as much.
  zh: 他在信中也多次提到这一点。
- start: 417.139
  end: 419.259
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There should be only one bishop per city.
  zh: 每个城市应该只有一位主教。
- start: 419.399
  end: 429.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But the fact that he says it so emphatically should be a red flag to you and should tip you off to realize that that's not the case in every city.
  zh: 但他如此强调这一点的事实应该引起你们的警觉，应该让你们意识到并非每个城市都是这种情况。
- start: 429.341
  end: 432.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He wants it to be the case, but it is not the case.
  zh: 他希望是这样，但事实并非如此。
- start: 434.645
  end: 443.728
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, the bigger the city, the more likely that it took longer for the church to get around to one bishop at a time.
  zh: 事实上，城市越大，教会要达到一次只有一位主教的情况就需要更长的时间。
- start: 444.069
  end: 456.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, if that's true, then a place like Rome may actually have been one of the last cities to get to the point where there is only one bishop per city.
  zh: 如果这是真的，那么像罗马这样的地方可能实际上是最后一批达到每个城市只有一位主教的城市之一。
- start: 456.953
  end: 463.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And we talked a little bit about Hippolytus last time, and I know you've read one of his documents.
  zh: 上次我们简单谈到了希波吕托，我知道你们读过他的一份文件。
- start: 465.251
  end: 472.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I hinted at the fact that one of the issues with Hippolytus is he seems to be a bishop, but nobody's exactly sure where he was the bishop.
  zh: 我暗示过希波吕托的一个问题是，他似乎是一位主教，但没人确切知道他是哪里的主教。
- start: 473.058
  end: 478.722
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it may be that he was bishop of one of the smaller towns surrounding Rome.
  zh: 他可能是罗马周围某个小镇的主教。
- start: 479.664
  end: 494.96
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But it also might be the case that he was a bishop within the city of Rome,  And that the term bishop at that time didn't necessarily mean that there had to be only one per city.
  zh: 但也可能是他是罗马城内的一位主教，而当时「主教」这个词并不一定意味着每个城市只能有一位。
- start: 495.361
  end: 506.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Clearly, if you look up, you know, you Google the list of popes, you'll get the official bishops of Rome at the time, and it'll list Hippolytus as an anti-pope or a rival bishop.
  zh: 显然，如果你查阅，比如说你在谷歌上搜索教宗名单，你会看到当时罗马的官方主教，而希波吕托会被列为反教宗或对立主教。
- start: 508.411
  end: 538.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But it could be that we really haven't evolved to the point where the city of Rome has only one bishop yet, and it may in fact be the case that Zephyrinus and Callistus were the leaders of one school, one school of catechesis, one group of churches that would  It could be the case that Hippolytus was the leader of another school.
  zh: 但可能我们还没有发展到罗马城只有一位主教的地步，事实上可能是泽菲林和卡利斯都是一个学派的领袖，一个教理讲授学校，一群教会的领袖。而希波吕托可能是另一个学派的领袖。
- start: 540.615
  end: 554.504
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: When we looked at Justin Martyr, if you read the martyrdom of Justin Martyr, you may remember that at one point the Romans are interrogating him and they said, tell us where the Christians meet.
  zh: 当我们研究殉道者游斯丁时，如果你读过他的殉道记，你可能记得有一次罗马人审问他，他们说，告诉我们基督徒在哪里聚会。
- start: 556.245
  end: 559.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And he's like, I'm going to tell you, right?
  zh: 他好像在说，我会告诉你们的，对吧？
- start: 559.427
  end: 560.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But actually he did.
  zh: 但实际上他确实说了。
- start: 560.168
  end: 568.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He said, well,  My group meets in the room above whatever store, but others meet elsewhere.
  zh: 他说，嗯，我的小组在某个商店楼上的房间里聚会，但其他人在别处聚会。
- start: 569.13
  end: 570.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, you could take that a couple of ways.
  zh: 现在，你可以从几个角度来理解这句话。
- start: 570.891
  end: 587.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You could take that, you know, that was his house church, and since he was about to be martyred, his house church would be disbanded and the people would have to go to other house churches anyway, so if the Romans raided that space, you know, they wouldn't find anyone anymore anyway.
  zh: 你可以理解为，你知道，那是他的家庭教会，而且由于他即将殉道，他的家庭教会将被解散，人们无论如何都要去其他家庭教会，所以如果罗马人突袭那个地方，你知道，他们反正也不会再找到任何人了。
- start: 587.182
  end: 603.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You could also take it that since Justin was a philosopher, considered himself a teacher of philosophy, teaching Christian philosophy, you could interpret that as that was where his school met, but there were other schools in the city of Rome.
  zh: 你也可以这样理解，由于游斯丁是一位哲学家，认为自己是哲学教师，教授基督教哲学，你可以将其解释为那是他的学校聚会的地方，但罗马城里还有其他学校。
- start: 603.974
  end: 620.678
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So at any rate, the bigger the city, the more likely that it may have had not just multiple house churches, but multiple groupings of house churches under  multiple overseers or multiple bishops.
  zh: 所以无论如何，城市越大，就越有可能不仅有多个家庭教会，还有多个家庭教会群体，由多个监督者或多个主教管理。
- start: 620.899
  end: 635.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, as I said, on the one hand, Rome as a bigger city would have been one of the first churches to have, first cities to have multiple house churches, multiple pastors, and form a council of priests.
  zh: 所以，正如我所说，一方面，作为一个大城市，罗马会是最早拥有多个家庭教会、多个牧师并形成神父议会的教会之一。
- start: 635.888
  end: 644.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But at the same time, it could be that there were multiple councils of priests with multiple chairs of the council.
  zh: 但同时，也可能存在多个神父议会，每个议会都有多个主席。
- start: 646.65
  end: 655.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So all that is to say that, you know, in the second and early third century, it's not necessarily the case that there is only one bishop per city.
  zh: 所以这一切都是为了说明，你知道，在二世纪和三世纪初，每个城市不一定只有一位主教。
- start: 655.493
  end: 662.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's not necessarily the case that there was a single authority in any given city on matters of doctrine.
  zh: 在教义问题上，任何特定城市不一定只有一个权威。
- start: 663.696
  end: 668.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There may have been multiple overseers over multiple schools.
  zh: 可能有多个监督者管理多个学校。
- start: 668.876
  end: 677.319
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But Ignatius knew, even going back to the beginning of the second century, Ignatius knew that that wasn't going to work long term.
  zh: 但伊格那丢知道，即使回到二世纪初，伊格那丢就知道这种情况长期来看是行不通的。
- start: 677.379
  end: 683.52
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That multiple authorities in one city was a threat to unity.
  zh: 一个城市中存在多个权威会威胁到团结。
- start: 685.601
  end: 696.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because let's face it, if you are, let's say you're a Christian group in a smaller city, and you have a couple of house churches with one overseer.
  zh: 因为让我们面对现实，假设你是一个小城市里的基督徒团体，你有几个家庭教会，由一个监督者管理。
- start: 696.825
  end: 698.685
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you know who your bishop is.
  zh: 所以你知道谁是你的主教。
- start: 698.976
  end: 701.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now you want to correspond with the Christians in Rome.
  zh: 现在你想与罗马的基督徒通信。
- start: 701.657
  end: 702.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who do you write to?
  zh: 你该给谁写信？
- start: 702.798
  end: 703.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Hippolytus?
  zh: 希波吕托？
- start: 703.538
  end: 704.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Callistus?
  zh: 卡利斯都？
- start: 704.899
  end: 706.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who's in charge?
  zh: 谁负责？
- start: 706.8
  end: 712.442
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what happens if there's a disagreement, which we know there was between Hippolytus and Callistus?
  zh: 如果出现分歧怎么办？我们知道希波吕托和卡利斯都之间就有分歧。
- start: 713.063
  end: 715.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, who is the authority?
  zh: 所以再次问，谁是权威？
- start: 715.384
  end: 716.424
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who decides?
  zh: 谁来决定？
- start: 716.424
  end: 746.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it became clear that if there was going to be unity, it was going to have to boil down to one point of authority  What evolves then, at least by the third century, and of course in some places sooner, but what evolves is what we call the mono-episcopacy.
  zh: 因此很明显，如果要保持团结，就必须归结到一个权威点。至少到了三世纪，当然在某些地方更早，演变出了我们所称的单一主教制。
- start: 747.079
  end: 750.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Obviously that means one bishop.
  zh: 显然，这意味着一位主教。
- start: 752.002
  end: 754.263
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: By the way, are you able to follow me with that camera?
  zh: 顺便问一下，你能用那个摄像机跟上我吗？
- start: 756.886
  end: 760.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mono-episcopacy, one bishop per city.
  zh: 单一主教制，每个城市一位主教。
- start: 761.329
  end: 772.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Ignatius saw this already in the early second century, when he said things like, to oppose the bishop is to be disobedient to God.
  zh: 伊格那丢在二世纪初就已经看到了这一点，他说过类似这样的话：反对主教就是不顺服神。
- start: 772.294
  end: 778.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We must regard the bishop as the Lord himself, and the presbyters should defer to the bishop.
  zh: 我们必须把主教视为主自己，长老们应当顺服主教。
- start: 778.558
  end: 779.678
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Things like this.
  zh: 诸如此类的话。
- start: 780.774
  end: 788.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Whoever does not meet with the sanction of the bishop is outside of the church and they've separated themselves from the church.
  zh: 凡不得到主教认可的人都在教会之外，他们已经将自己与教会分离。
- start: 790.061
  end: 802.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So this development was seen really as necessary, especially for two specific reasons.
  zh: 所以这种发展被认为是真正必要的，特别是出于两个具体原因。
- start: 802.35
  end: 812.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There had to be one point of authority in a given city so that there was one  Music will be omitted.
  zh: 在一个特定的城市必须有一个权威点，这样就有了一个……音乐将被省略。
- start: 812.87
  end: 815.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Music will be omitted.
  zh: 音乐将被省略。
- start: 834.79
  end: 840.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Think about discipline this way, in terms of excommunication and then reconciliation.
  zh: 从这个角度思考纪律问题，即逐出教会和随后的和解。
- start: 840.195
  end: 848.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if someone does something to be excommunicated by the church, they're going to need to be reconciled to the church.
  zh: 所以如果有人做了什么导致被教会逐出的事，他们就需要与教会和解。
- start: 848.202
  end: 853.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And to be reconciled to the church means to be reconciled to the bishop.
  zh: 与教会和解意味着与主教和解。
- start: 854.147
  end: 874.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because if there's more than one bishop in a place, if I do something, I commit some major sin,  And my bishop excommunicates me and says, well, we are going to require you to go through some sort of penance in order to be reconciled.
  zh: 因为如果一个地方有多位主教，如果我做了什么，犯了什么大罪，我的主教将我逐出教会并说，好吧，我们要求你进行某种忏悔才能和解。
- start: 874.884
  end: 880.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What's to prevent me from shopping around and going to the other bishop and seeing if he's going to be easier on me?
  zh: 有什么能阻止我四处寻找，去找其他主教看看他是否会对我更宽容呢？
- start: 881.848
  end: 887.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then you have the problem of one bishop reconciling people who are excommunicated by another bishop.
  zh: 然后你就会遇到一个问题，一位主教与被另一位主教逐出教会的人和解。
- start: 887.53
  end: 891.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So for the purposes of discipline, they all need to be on the same page.
  zh: 所以为了纪律的目的，他们都需要达成一致。
- start: 891.532
  end: 893.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you can see why that would be an issue.
  zh: 所以你可以看到为什么这会成为一个问题。
- start: 895.939
  end: 903.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, this is actually something we're exploring in greater depth in another class I'm teaching, but it's the relationship between authority and unity.
  zh: 所以，这实际上是我在另一门课上更深入探讨的内容，但它涉及权威和团结之间的关系。
- start: 903.801
  end: 912.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To what extent is the development of the hierarchy, and then especially the mono-episcopacy, necessary to maintain unity?
  zh: 等级制度的发展，特别是单一主教制，在多大程度上是维持团结所必需的？
- start: 912.323
  end: 917.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And as you're going to find out by the end of this class, unity is going to be elusive anyway.
  zh: 而且你们在这门课结束时会发现，无论如何团结都是难以实现的。
- start: 924.526
  end: 929.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other thing  I guess I could put sacraments up here.
  zh: 另一件事，我想我可以在这里提到圣事。
- start: 932.967
  end: 934.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, it has to do with what I was just talking about.
  zh: 但再次说明，这与我刚才谈到的有关。
- start: 934.887
  end: 939.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you are excommunicated, it means you are excluded from communion.
  zh: 如果你被逐出教会，这意味着你被排除在圣餐之外。
- start: 940.209
  end: 942.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It doesn't mean we don't talk to you.
  zh: 这并不意味着我们不和你说话。
- start: 942.05
  end: 946.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It means you're not admitted to the table of the Eucharist.
  zh: 这意味着你不被允许参加圣餐。
- start: 946.652
  end: 963.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the sacraments are  Guarded, if you will, by the bishop, in the sense that if you want to participate in the sacrament of the Eucharist, you need to be in communion with the church, which means you need to be in communion with the bishop.
  zh: 所以圣事是由主教守护的，可以这么说，意思是如果你想参与圣餐圣事，你需要与教会保持相通，这意味着你需要与主教保持相通。
- start: 963.167
  end: 967.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And if the bishop excommunicates you, you are excommunicated.
  zh: 如果主教将你逐出教会，你就是被逐出教会了。
- start: 967.29
  end: 968.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that's not all.
  zh: 但这还不是全部。
- start: 968.871
  end: 969.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Burial.
  zh: 埋葬。
- start: 970.872
  end: 978.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Even though burial isn't necessarily considered a sacrament at this point, the bishops control the cemeteries, the catacombs.
  zh: 尽管在这个时期埋葬并不一定被视为圣事，但主教们控制着墓地和地下墓穴。
- start: 979.342
  end: 991.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you want a Christian burial in the Christian catacombs, you cannot be excommunicated or you cannot be out of communion with the vision.
  zh: 如果你想在基督教地下墓穴中获得基督教式的埋葬，你不能被逐出教会，也不能与这个愿景脱离关系。
- start: 993.025
  end: 995.405
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who gets buried in the catacombs?
  zh: 谁会被埋葬在地下墓穴中？
- start: 995.405
  end: 999.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: By the way, in the catacombs means close to the saints.
  zh: 顺便说一下，在地下墓穴中意味着靠近圣徒。
- start: 999.906
  end: 1002.127
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who gets buried near the martyrs?
  zh: 谁会被埋葬在殉道者附近？
- start: 1002.447
  end: 1003.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That was very important.
  zh: 这是非常重要的。
- start: 1003.807
  end: 1008.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, you get the idea.
  zh: 好了，你们明白了。
- start: 1008.703
  end: 1015.386
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, any questions about the development of the Episcopacy or any of that so far?
  zh: 现在，关于主教制度的发展或到目前为止的任何内容，有什么问题吗？
- start: 1015.706
  end: 1020.368
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is just kind of bringing us up to where we are with the development of the hierarchy, really.
  zh: 这实际上只是让我们了解到等级制度发展的现状。
- start: 1020.368
  end: 1021.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yes, question?
  zh: 是的，有问题吗？
- start: 1021.149
  end: 1023.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, that's a good question.
  zh: 嗯，这是个好问题。
- start: 1035.459
  end: 1049.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's obviously an unlimited number of sins that one could think of, but the early church did have a sense that there were deadly sins and not-so-deadly sins.
  zh: 显然，人们可以想到无数种罪，但早期教会确实认为有致命的罪和不那么致命的罪。
- start: 1050.331
  end: 1054.214
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And they weren't the traditional list of seven deadly sins yet.
  zh: 而且它们还不是传统的七宗罪清单。
- start: 1055.436
  end: 1060.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But there's a passage, I think it's in one of the Johannine letters, of sins leading to death.
  zh: 但有一段经文，我想是在约翰书信中的一封，提到了导致死亡的罪。
- start: 1061.035
  end: 1062.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let me know which one I'm talking about.
  zh: 告诉我我说的是哪一封。
- start: 1062.436
  end: 1069.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, so there's a sense that there are mortal sins or deadly sins and then ones that are not so bad.
  zh: 是的，所以有一种观念认为有致死的罪或致命的罪，然后还有一些不那么严重的罪。
- start: 1069.482
  end: 1075.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And while they don't come right out and say this, it seems like the deadly sins are the ones that break one of the Ten Commandments.
  zh: 虽然他们没有直接这么说，但似乎致命的罪就是违反十诫中的一条。
- start: 1075.907
  end: 1087.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, the worst sins, from the perspective of the early church, the worst things you could do  Top of the list would really be idolatry or apostasy.
  zh: 现在，从早期教会的角度来看，最严重的罪，你能做的最糟糕的事情，清单顶部真的是偶像崇拜或背教。
- start: 1087.902
  end: 1101.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So to deny the faith, to save your life in the persecution, to make a pagan sacrifice, to participate in some pagan ritual, any form of idolatry would be the worst sin you could commit.
  zh: 所以否认信仰，在迫害中为了保全生命而献祭给异教神明，参与某些异教仪式，任何形式的偶像崇拜都将是你能犯的最严重的罪。
- start: 1101.971
  end: 1110.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you'll see when we talk next week, we're going to talk about what happens when people do that and then they want to come back and be reconciled to the church.
  zh: 你们会看到，下周我们讨论时，我们将谈论当人们这样做然后想回来与教会和解时会发生什么。
- start: 1111.529
  end: 1120.193
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: From my reading, I would say that the number two worst sin you could commit was adultery, and murder was like a distant third.
  zh: 根据我的阅读，我会说你能犯的第二严重的罪是通奸，而谋杀则远远排在第三位。
- start: 1121.753
  end: 1127.696
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I think it's probably because they just sort of assumed Christians weren't committing murder, so it wasn't an issue.
  zh: 我认为这可能是因为他们只是假设基督徒不会犯谋杀罪，所以这不是一个问题。
- start: 1129.29
  end: 1136.636
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Apostasy was an issue because, especially during the persecution, the Romans could confront you with execution.
  zh: 背教是一个问题，因为特别是在迫害期间，罗马人可能会以处决来威胁你。
- start: 1137.257
  end: 1143.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Adultery was an issue because, you know, humans being humans.
  zh: 通奸是一个问题，因为你知道，人性就是人性。
- start: 1143.482
  end: 1148.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Murder doesn't seem to have been an issue, but then it sort of goes from there.
  zh: 谋杀似乎不是一个问题，但从那里开始就有了变化。
- start: 1149.547
  end: 1151.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But those were the top three.
  zh: 但那是前三大罪。
- start: 1151.529
  end: 1162.639
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, you know, the debates over whether or not the church could reconcile someone who had committed one of these sins, whether or not the church could forgive these sins are usually the top two.
  zh: 所以，你知道，关于教会是否能与犯了这些罪之一的人和解，教会是否能宽恕这些罪的争论通常集中在前两种罪上。
- start: 1163.52
  end: 1173.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But then the question becomes, alright, if adultery is one of your top worst sins,  Is remarriage after divorce a form of adultery?
  zh: 但接下来的问题是，好吧，如果通奸是你最严重的罪之一，那么离婚后再婚是否也是一种通奸？
- start: 1173.353
  end: 1175.875
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that becomes an issue.
  zh: 这就成了一个问题。
- start: 1175.875
  end: 1179.038
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, you can see why these are important.
  zh: 所以，你可以看到为什么这些很重要。
- start: 1179.038
  end: 1182.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But those are the ones that seem to concern the early church the most.
  zh: 但这些似乎是早期教会最关心的问题。
- start: 1182.26
  end: 1184.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Would you agree with that, Reverend Vance-Blake?
  zh: 范斯-布莱克牧师，你同意这个观点吗？
- start: 1184.742
  end: 1186.523
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I should.
  zh: 我应该同意。
- start: 1186.523
  end: 1187.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Okay, good.
  zh: 好的，很好。
- start: 1187.544
  end: 1188.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Anything to add?
  zh: 还有什么要补充的吗？
- start: 1193.488
  end: 1202.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, I...  But again, if we are to believe the documents, they pose the issue as Christians don't do these things.
  zh: 你知道，我……但是再说一遍，如果我们相信这些文件，它们把这个问题描述为基督徒不做这些事。
- start: 1223.368
  end: 1255.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It really isn't, and I think I can say with confidence that  Part of the reason it isn't an issue is because in Roman law I think it's not allowed.
  zh: 这确实不是，我想我可以有把握地说，部分原因是因为在罗马法律中我认为这是不允许的。
- start: 1255.89
  end: 1258.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's no polygamy allowed in Roman law.
  zh: 罗马法律不允许一夫多妻制。
- start: 1259.07
  end: 1268.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now that doesn't mean they don't get around having multiple relationships.
  zh: 但这并不意味着他们不会通过其他方式拥有多重关系。
- start: 1268.133
  end: 1274.915
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One of the pastoral epistles has the thing about a bishop should be the husband of one wife.
  zh: 教牧书信中有一条说主教应该是一个妻子的丈夫。
- start: 1275.351
  end: 1277.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the question comes up, you know, does that mean one at a time?
  zh: 问题就来了，你知道，这是否意味着一次一个？
- start: 1277.873
  end: 1285.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Or, you know, one only in terms of, you know, is this about divorce and remarriage?
  zh: 或者，你知道，只有一个是指，你知道，这是关于离婚和再婚吗？
- start: 1285.417
  end: 1294.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I think the early church pretty much interpreted it as that was about divorce and remarriage, so that you really shouldn't get divorced, but if you did, you shouldn't be remarried.
  zh: 我认为早期教会基本上将其解释为关于离婚和再婚，所以你真的不应该离婚，但如果你离婚了，你就不应该再婚。
- start: 1296.817
  end: 1301.7
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I don't remember very many texts that even talk about polygamy.
  zh: 我不记得有很多文本甚至谈到一夫多妻制。
- start: 1301.94
  end: 1304.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No, it's not really an issue in the early church.
  zh: 不，这在早期教会并不是一个真正的问题。
- start: 1304.202
  end: 1327.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I assume that the polygamy in the Old Testament  Product of a nomadic culture.
  zh: 我假设旧约中的一夫多妻制是游牧文化的产物。
- start: 1328.554
  end: 1331.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, you know, we're not doing that anymore.
  zh: 但是，你知道，我们不再那样做了。
- start: 1332.496
  end: 1333.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Was there another question?
  zh: 还有其他问题吗？
- start: 1334.996
  end: 1336.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No? Okay.
  zh: 没有？好的。
- start: 1336.897
  end: 1337.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All right.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 1337.757
  end: 1344.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, with this in mind, I want to talk about Montanism.
  zh: 考虑到这一点，我想谈谈孟他努主义。
- start: 1345.48
  end: 1361.058
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Montanism is a fringe movement within the early church  that is often portrayed as a schismatic movement, as a separationist movement from the church.
  zh: 孟他努主义是早期教会内的一个边缘运动，常被描述为分裂运动，是一种脱离教会的分离主义运动。
- start: 1361.158
  end: 1362.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know this word, schism?
  zh: 你们知道「分裂」这个词吗？
- start: 1362.379
  end: 1363.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, you will.
  zh: 你知道，你会的。
- start: 1364.58
  end: 1367.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I guess it's the same root where we get the word scissors.
  zh: 我猜它与「剪刀」这个词有相同的词根。
- start: 1367.322
  end: 1369.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I don't know, you know, like a separation.
  zh: 我不知道，你知道，就像是一种分离。
- start: 1369.503
  end: 1373.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But a schism is so a split, right, of the church.
  zh: 但分裂就是教会的一种分离，对吧。
- start: 1374.126
  end: 1377.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And Montanism, here, let's do this.
  zh: 关于孟他努主义，让我们这样做。
- start: 1379.4
  end: 1395.828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Montanism is usually portrayed as a schismatic movement, but I think the more recent scholarship on this is saying that it really isn't. It really isn't a separationist movement.
  zh: 孟他努主义通常被描述为一种分裂运动，但我认为最近的学术研究表明它实际上不是。它真的不是一个分离主义运动。
- start: 1396.068
  end: 1401.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's more analogous to a charismatic renewal movement within the church.
  zh: 它更类似于教会内的一种灵恩更新运动。
- start: 1401.731
  end: 1404.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's more of a contemporary term, but you get the idea.
  zh: 这更像是一个现代术语，但你们明白我的意思。
- start: 1404.132
  end: 1420.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And one of the biggest pieces of evidence  Tertullian wrote his best stuff, or most of his stuff, after joining with the Montanists in North Africa.
  zh: 最有力的证据之一是特土良在北非加入孟他努派后写出了他最好的或大部分作品。
- start: 1420.774
  end: 1429.239
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you read against Praxeas, Tertullian is considered a Montanist by the time he writes that document.
  zh: 所以你读《驳普拉克西亚》时，特土良在写那份文件时已被认为是孟他努派信徒。
- start: 1429.34
  end: 1436.175
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And yet not only is there nothing  There's nothing heretical or heterodox in that document.
  zh: 然而，那份文件中不仅没有任何异端或非正统的内容。
- start: 1436.175
  end: 1443.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not only is there nothing unorthodox in that document, that document is part of what defines orthodoxy.
  zh: 那份文件不仅没有任何非正统的内容，它还是定义正统信仰的一部分。
- start: 1443.819
  end: 1450.143
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We talked about Tertullian's use of the terms person and substance for the Trinity.
  zh: 我们讨论过特土良用「位格」和「本质」这些术语来描述三位一体。
- start: 1450.143
  end: 1453.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, that stuff comes out of Against Praxis.
  zh: 嗯，这些内容来自《驳普拉克西亚》。
- start: 1454.385
  end: 1462.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Clearly, Tertullian is an example of someone who associated himself with this movement and yet did not break with the Church.
  zh: 显然，特土良是一个与这个运动有联系却没有与教会决裂的例子。
- start: 1463.792
  end: 1467.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It really, at the time, was called the New Prophecy.
  zh: 在当时，它实际上被称为「新预言」。
- start: 1467.593
  end: 1475.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's what Tertullian himself called it.
  zh: 这是特土良自己对它的称呼。
- start: 1475.174
  end: 1476.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The New Prophecy.
  zh: 新预言。
- start: 1476.994
  end: 1483.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is a charismatic movement within the church that is also somewhat critical of the church.
  zh: 这是教会内的一个灵恩运动，同时也对教会有一些批评。
- start: 1483.515
  end: 1487.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it sees itself as something of a renewal movement.
  zh: 所以它将自己视为一种更新运动。
- start: 1487.976
  end: 1492.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They seem to have considered themselves morally superior to the rest of the church.
  zh: 他们似乎认为自己在道德上优于教会的其他成员。
- start: 1495.764
  end: 1501.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: With regard to sin and reconciliation, they are considered rigorous.
  zh: 在对待罪和和解方面，他们被认为是严格的。
- start: 1505.708
  end: 1516.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They tend to advocate excommunication for more things and tougher reconciliation.
  zh: 他们倾向于主张对更多事情实行逐出教会的处罚，并要求更严格的和解过程。
- start: 1518.021
  end: 1523.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They encouraged celibacy, but apparently did not require it, as well as asceticism.
  zh: 他们鼓励独身，但显然并不要求这样做，他们也提倡禁欲主义。
- start: 1523.384
  end: 1539.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So they had strict rules that they tried to enforce among their group, having to do with things like fasts and personal discipline.
  zh: 所以他们有严格的规则，试图在他们的群体中执行，这些规则涉及禁食和个人纪律等方面。
- start: 1542.427
  end: 1556.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Basically, remarriage to them was the same thing as adultery, so they did not want to allow second marriages, did not want to allow the reconciliation of adulterers or people who got remarried.
  zh: 基本上，对他们来说再婚等同于通奸，所以他们不允许二次婚姻，不允许与通奸者或再婚者和解。
- start: 1558.911
  end: 1563.272
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you're getting kind of a picture of what they were about.
  zh: 所以你们大概了解了他们的主张。
- start: 1563.392
  end: 1569.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It actually goes back to the end of the second century with a guy named Montanus.
  zh: 它实际上可以追溯到二世纪末，起源于一个名叫孟他努的人。
- start: 1574.056
  end: 1577.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you can see that's why it's called Montanism.
  zh: 你们可以看到这就是为什么它被称为孟他努主义。
- start: 1577.099
  end: 1583.084
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's named after Montanus, who was a priest from Phrygia.
  zh: 它是以孟他努命名的，他是一位来自弗里吉亚的祭司。
- start: 1584.246
  end: 1594.355
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now Phrygia is in Asia Minor, which is now Turkey, and there's another name for Montanism based on its origin in Phrygia.
  zh: 弗里吉亚位于小亚细亚，现在的土耳其，孟他努主义基于其在弗里吉亚的起源还有另一个名称。
- start: 1594.355
  end: 1599.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's called Cataphrygianism.
  zh: 它被称为卡塔弗里吉亚主义。
- start: 1599.731
  end: 1600.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Like, what does that mean?
  zh: 这是什么意思？
- start: 1600.432
  end: 1601.973
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Too much Phrygianism?
  zh: 过度的弗里吉亚主义？
- start: 1601.973
  end: 1604.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I don't know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 1604.835
  end: 1618.545
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the idea here is that it's seen as an expression of too much emotionalism, too much enthusiasm.
  zh: 但这里的观点是，它被视为过度情绪化、过度热情的表现。
- start: 1618.866
  end: 1626.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that comes from the fact that they emphasize and encourage charismatic gifts.
  zh: 这源于他们强调和鼓励灵恩恩赐。
- start: 1626.912
  end: 1647.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Apparently, Montanus,  And he had two daughters as well, a Priscilla and a Maximilla, apparently that somewhere around the middle of the second century, claimed to be able to speak for the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 显然，孟他努和他的两个女儿，普里西拉和马克西米拉，大约在二世纪中叶声称能够代表圣灵说话。
- start: 1648.517
  end: 1662.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, by the way, I don't expect you to memorize these dates or anything, but just so you know, a lot of times you will see the year 172 thrown around as the beginning of Montanism,  And some sources point to that.
  zh: 顺便说一下，我不期望你们记住这些日期或其他什么，但你们要知道，你们经常会看到172年被认为是孟他努主义的开始，一些资料指向这个日期。
- start: 1662.334
  end: 1668.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Other sources point to an earlier date of 156. And I think it's the earlier date.
  zh: 其他资料指向更早的156年。我认为是更早的日期。
- start: 1668.975
  end: 1685.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think it starts earlier, closer to the middle of the second century, because remember when Irenaeus left Gaul to go to Rome in 177? One of the reasons he was going to Rome was to speak on behalf of the Monsonites.
  zh: 我认为它开始得更早，更接近二世纪中叶，因为还记得爱任纽在177年离开高卢去罗马吗？他去罗马的原因之一是为孟他努派辩护。
- start: 1685.979
  end: 1689.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Roman church didn't know whether to excommunicate the Monsonites or not.
  zh: 罗马教会不知道是否应该将孟他努派逐出教会。
- start: 1689.963
  end: 1698.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Irenaeus, being originally from Asia Minor, went to Rome to speak on behalf of the Montanists.
  zh: 爱任纽本来是小亚细亚人，他去罗马为孟他努派辩护。
- start: 1698.485
  end: 1705.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, if Montanism didn't start until 172, it's unlikely it got to Rome after only five years.
  zh: 嗯，如果孟他努主义直到172年才开始，它不太可能仅仅五年后就传到罗马。
- start: 1706.327
  end: 1710.729
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So I'm saying that it probably started closer to the middle of the century.
  zh: 所以我认为它可能开始于更接近世纪中叶的时候。
- start: 1710.809
  end: 1719.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: By 177, it's in Rome, the Roman church doesn't know what to do about it, and Irenaeus, true to his name, is playing peacemaker there.
  zh: 到177年，它已经在罗马，罗马教会不知道该如何处理，而爱任纽，正如他的名字所示，在那里扮演着和事佬的角色。
- start: 1721.855
  end: 1726.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Montanus and his daughters claim to be able to speak for the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 孟他努和他的女儿们声称能够代表圣灵说话。
- start: 1727.699
  end: 1740.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They experience charismatic gifts, maybe including what we would call speaking in tongues, ecstatic trances, things like this.
  zh: 他们经历灵恩恩赐，可能包括我们所说的说方言、狂喜恍惚等这类事情。
- start: 1741.457
  end: 1757.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Note, here is a perfect example of charismatic authority that receives authority and in fact revelation directly from God, via the Holy Spirit, without going through the hierarchy.
  zh: 注意，这是一个完美的灵恩权威的例子，它通过圣灵直接从神那里获得权威和启示，而不经过等级制度。
- start: 1758.006
  end: 1765.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you can see why this is going to be seen as somewhat threatening to the developing hierarchy.
  zh: 所以你可以看到为什么这会被视为对发展中的等级制度的某种威胁。
- start: 1765.551
  end: 1789.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Even though they don't seem to be teaching anything that would be considered heretical,  Just simply the fact that they might someday, down the road, decide to say something that's out of bounds theologically, and they're not really under the control of the church hierarchy, nor are they getting their revelation through the established hierarchical channels.
  zh: 尽管他们似乎没有教导任何被认为是异端的东西，仅仅是他们可能有朝一日决定说一些在神学上越界的话，而且他们并不真正受教会等级制度的控制，也不是通过既定的等级渠道获得启示。
- start: 1796.118
  end: 1807.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other thing is that Montanism is often portrayed as sort of anti-hierarchy and very egalitarian.
  zh: 另一件事是，孟他努主义常被描绘成某种反等级制度和非常平等主义的。
- start: 1807.241
  end: 1814.543
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One of the reasons that it's portrayed that way is because here we have an example in Montanus' two daughters of women in leadership.
  zh: 它被这样描绘的原因之一是因为我们在孟他努的两个女儿身上看到了女性领导的例子。
- start: 1816.944
  end: 1823.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In truth, though, I don't see any evidence that they were outright anti-hierarchy.
  zh: 但事实上，我没有看到任何证据表明他们是公开反对等级制度的。
- start: 1824.136
  end: 1833.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And even though they did have women in leadership, what they really had was prophets in leadership and anyone could be a prophet, male or female.
  zh: 尽管他们确实有女性领导，但他们真正拥有的是先知领导，任何人都可以成为先知，无论男女。
- start: 1833.724
  end: 1839.268
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it's not as though just any woman could be a leader in their movement, you had to be a prophet.
  zh: 但并不是任何女性都可以成为他们运动中的领导，你必须是一个先知。
- start: 1839.468
  end: 1850.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it isn't as egalitarian as it appears on the surface because  It isn't the case that anyone could become a leader in this movement.
  zh: 所以它并不像表面上看起来那么平等，因为并非任何人都可以成为这个运动的领导。
- start: 1850.482
  end: 1852.744
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The leaders in the movement were considered prophets.
  zh: 这个运动中的领导被认为是先知。
- start: 1852.744
  end: 1855.926
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there were prophets and then there were the others.
  zh: 所以有先知，然后还有其他人。
- start: 1859.789
  end: 1866.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, as I said, we have this council in Rome in 177 to discuss them.
  zh: 正如我所说，我们在177年在罗马召开了这个会议来讨论他们。
- start: 1866.554
  end: 1871.278
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Irenaeus was there and had some role in this.
  zh: 爱任纽在那里，在这件事上发挥了一些作用。
- start: 1871.538
  end: 1879.976
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Eusebius,  Early church historian tells us that similar councils had already been held in Asia Minor.
  zh: 早期教会历史学家优西比乌告诉我们，类似的会议已经在小亚细亚举行过。
- start: 1880.036
  end: 1883.759
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fact, these would be the earliest church councils that we know of.
  zh: 事实上，这些可能是我们所知的最早的教会会议。
- start: 1883.759
  end: 1885.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We haven't really talked about councils yet in here.
  zh: 我们在这里还没有真正讨论过会议。
- start: 1885.981
  end: 1887.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Believe me, we're going to get there.
  zh: 相信我，我们会讨论到的。
- start: 1887.443
  end: 1890.345
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're going to talk about councils quite a bit.
  zh: 我们会详细讨论会议的。
- start: 1891.226
  end: 1895.329
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But at the beginning, church councils were really just local.
  zh: 但在开始时，教会会议实际上只是地方性的。
- start: 1895.389
  end: 1898.652
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And a better word for that is the synod.
  zh: 更好的词是「主教会议」。
- start: 1899.944
  end: 1907.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because often we talk about a council as something more regional or even worldwide, and a synod is more of a local council.
  zh: 因为我们通常把「大公会议」看作是更区域性甚至全球性的事物，而「主教会议」更多是一种地方性的会议。
- start: 1907.107
  end: 1914.969
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So these earliest councils were over what to do about the Montanists.
  zh: 所以这些最早的会议是关于如何处理孟他努派的问题。
- start: 1914.969
  end: 1935.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So at the beginning,  Apparently, Irenaeus was successful in convincing the leadership in Rome that the Montanists were not heretics.
  zh: 所以在开始时，显然爱任纽成功地说服了罗马的领导层，认为孟他努派不是异端。
- start: 1936.407
  end: 1943.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so at the beginning, it seems like they were in communion with the Roman Church.
  zh: 因此在开始时，他们似乎与罗马教会保持着相通。
- start: 1943.472
  end: 1950.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And now remember, by this time, Montanism has spread beyond just Phrygia, and it's made its way into the West.
  zh: 现在记住，到这个时候，孟他努主义已经不仅仅局限于弗里吉亚，它已经传到了西方。
- start: 1951.238
  end: 1970.618
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But then, remember, we read in Tertullian that this guy Praxeus,  Again, we don't know if that's his real name, but whoever Praxeus is apparently was able to convince the Roman leadership to flip on this and to turn against the Monsonists.
  zh: 但是记住，我们在特土良的著作中读到，这个叫普拉克西亚的人，再次说明，我们不知道这是否是他的真名，但无论普拉克西亚是谁，显然他能够说服罗马领导层改变立场，转而反对孟他努派。
- start: 1970.798
  end: 1984.062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this seems to have been part of the reason that Tertullian himself had a falling out with the church in Rome and went back to North Africa, where there was already a Monsonist group and where Tertullian was able to join up with them.
  zh: 这似乎是特土良本人与罗马教会产生分歧并回到北非的部分原因，在那里已经有一个孟他努派团体，特土良能够加入他们。
- start: 1986.966
  end: 1997.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Irenaeus and now also Tertullian are at least sympathetic towards the Montanists and their concept of charismatic authority.
  zh: 爱任纽，现在还有特土良，至少对孟他努派及其灵恩权威的概念表示同情。
- start: 1997.33
  end: 2003.953
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And when the Roman church turns against the Montanists and excommunicates them, Tertullian leaves Rome.
  zh: 当罗马教会转而反对孟他努派并将他们逐出教会时，特土良离开了罗马。
- start: 2003.953
  end: 2013.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now it's unclear whether there were other issues that led Tertullian to leave Rome, but this seems to be one of the main issues, if not the main issue.
  zh: 现在还不清楚是否有其他问题导致特土良离开罗马，但这似乎是主要问题之一，如果不是最主要的问题的话。
- start: 2015.845
  end: 2017.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All right.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 2018.927
  end: 2033.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Eventually though, as the way things usually go, there's somebody who starts a movement who says certain things and takes it so far, but then later leaders of the movement take it even farther.
  zh: 然而最终，正如事情通常的发展方式，有人开始一个运动，说了某些事情并将其发展到一定程度，但后来的运动领导者会将其推得更远。
- start: 2033.118
  end: 2048.381
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that a later leader of the movement went so far as to say that Montanus, who by now had passed on,  This is the embodiment of the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 所以后来的一位运动领导者甚至说，现在已经去世的孟他努就是圣灵的化身。
- start: 2048.381
  end: 2051.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So here's Montanus who comes along and says, I can speak for the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 所以这里有孟他努出现并说，我可以代表圣灵说话。
- start: 2051.903
  end: 2056.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When he's gone, the next generation says, no, he was the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 当他去世后，下一代人说，不，他就是圣灵。
- start: 2056.846
  end: 2063.189
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At this point, it starts to get out of hand as far as the mainstream church is concerned.
  zh: 在这一点上，就主流教会而言，事情开始失控了。
- start: 2067.712
  end: 2072.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He must have been possessed by a demon.
  zh: 他一定是被鬼附身了。
- start: 2073.194
  end: 2076.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Almost the same question that came up about Jesus.
  zh: 几乎是同样的问题，就像人们对耶稣提出的那样。
- start: 2076.576
  end: 2082.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Is it the Holy Spirit or is it a demon?
  zh: 是圣灵还是魔鬼？
- start: 2082.379
  end: 2103.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The mainstream opponents of monotheism really pointed to their charismatic gifts, their ecstatic trances,  There was evidence that it was really demonic forces that were behind what they were doing  And that all kinds of accusations came up.
  zh: 一神论的主流反对者真的指出了他们的灵恩恩赐，他们的狂喜恍惚，有证据表明他们所做的事背后真的是魔鬼力量，于是各种指控都出现了。
- start: 2103.4
  end: 2112.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That sometimes you will read in secondary sources, you know, in some books you'll read that, you know, they did this and they did that and they did this and they did that.
  zh: 有时你会在二手资料中读到，你知道，在一些书中你会读到，他们做了这个，做了那个，做了这个，做了那个。
- start: 2112.928
  end: 2118.012
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But a lot of that just comes from their opponents making stuff up about them to make them sound bad.
  zh: 但很多这样的说法只是来自他们的对手编造的东西，目的是让他们听起来很糟糕。
- start: 2118.012
  end: 2119.973
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you have to keep going back to Tertullian.
  zh: 你必须不断回到特土良的著作。
- start: 2119.973
  end: 2120.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, wait a minute.
  zh: 等一下。
- start: 2120.854
  end: 2122.175
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Did Tertullian say that?
  zh: 特土良说过那个吗？
- start: 2122.175
  end: 2123.596
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No. Did Tertullian do that?
  zh: 没有。特土良做过那个吗？
- start: 2123.596
  end: 2143.771
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No. Because one of the accusations, for example, is that the monotheists  Gave the charismatic authority more emphasis than Scripture, so that they would believe their charismatic revelation over Scripture.
  zh: 没有。因为其中一个指控，例如，是一神论者比圣经更强调灵恩权威，以至于他们会相信他们的灵恩启示胜过圣经。
- start: 2143.971
  end: 2155.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the evidence doesn't support that, because if you look at Tertullian, he almost never quotes charismatic utterances of the Monsonites, but he quotes Scripture all over the place.
  zh: 但证据并不支持这一点，因为如果你看特土良的著作，他几乎从不引用孟他努派的灵恩言论，但他到处引用圣经。
- start: 2156.041
  end: 2165.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, you see how in the early church you have to be careful when you read something that is written by the opponent of someone.
  zh: 所以再次说明，你看到在早期教会中，当你读到某人的对手写的东西时，你必须小心。
- start: 2165.506
  end: 2177.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You have to really take it with a grain of salt and be careful that you don't just automatically trust something that an early church author says, especially when they're writing against someone else, which they usually are.
  zh: 你必须对此持保留态度，小心不要自动相信早期教会作者所说的话，特别是当他们在批评别人时，而他们通常都是这样做的。
- start: 2182.846
  end: 2195.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Other accusations that the Montanists faced were that they were accused of enticing women to abandon their husbands and then go around and call themselves virgins.
  zh: 孟他努派面临的其他指控是，他们被指控诱使妇女抛弃丈夫，然后四处宣称自己是处女。
- start: 2196.57
  end: 2200.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, these are just a lot of attacks on the women.
  zh: 再次说明，这些只是对女性的大量攻击。
- start: 2200.292
  end: 2209.577
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They accuse the women of prophesying for money and then using the money to buy expensive clothing and jewelry.
  zh: 他们指责这些女性为了钱而预言，然后用这些钱购买昂贵的衣服和珠宝。
- start: 2209.778
  end: 2212.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, just attacking the women.
  zh: 所以再次说明，这只是在攻击女性。
- start: 2212.64
  end: 2225.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the interesting thing about that is that this may be the first time that we see evidence in the early literature of clergy getting paid.
  zh: 但有趣的是，这可能是我们在早期文献中首次看到神职人员获得报酬的证据。
- start: 2226.138
  end: 2232.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in other words, the Montanists have a stipend for their leaders.
  zh: 换句话说，孟他努派为他们的领导提供津贴。
- start: 2233.361
  end: 2237.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the mainstream church doesn't yet, at this point, it seems.
  zh: 而主流教会在这一点上似乎还没有。
- start: 2237.843
  end: 2240.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And, you know, so maybe there's a little bit of jealousy.
  zh: 你知道，所以可能有一点嫉妒。
- start: 2240.485
  end: 2243.786
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Wait a minute, you know, they're getting paid and I'm not, or something.
  zh: 等一下，你知道，他们得到报酬而我没有，或者类似的情况。
- start: 2244.046
  end: 2250.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so they get criticized for, you know,  It's prophesying for money.
  zh: 所以他们受到批评，你知道，说他们是为了钱而预言。
- start: 2251.321
  end: 2255.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, notice where we are in the history here.
  zh: 但再次注意，我们在历史上处于什么位置。
- start: 2255.343
  end: 2257.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Late second, early third century.
  zh: 二世纪末，三世纪初。
- start: 2260.506
  end: 2263.327
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Being clergy is not a day job yet.
  zh: 成为神职人员还不是一份日常工作。
- start: 2263.388
  end: 2266.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some of you were in the VFCL group that I spoke to the other day.
  zh: 你们中的一些人前几天参加了我讲话的VFCL小组。
- start: 2266.269
  end: 2267.569
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We talked about this.
  zh: 我们讨论过这个。
- start: 2267.61
  end: 2272.652
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Being clergy doesn't really become a day job until later in the third century.
  zh: 直到三世纪后期，成为神职人员才真正成为一份日常工作。
- start: 2272.893
  end: 2275.874
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And even then, it doesn't always mean you get paid for it.
  zh: 即便如此，这也并不总是意味着你能因此得到报酬。
- start: 2279.028
  end: 2288.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It was eventually said that Montanus and one of his daughters, Maximilla, committed suicide because they prophesied the end of the world and it didn't come.
  zh: 最终有人说，孟他努和他的一个女儿马克西米拉自杀了，因为他们预言世界末日，但它并没有到来。
- start: 2294.352
  end: 2308.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, we don't know if that's true, if they really committed suicide, but there is a note in one of the other early historians that Maximilla had said that she would be the last prophet, and then Jesus would return.
  zh: 现在，我们不知道这是否是真的，他们是否真的自杀了，但在另一位早期历史学家的记录中提到，马克西米拉曾说她将是最后一位先知，然后耶稣就会回来。
- start: 2308.702
  end: 2311.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there may be something to this.
  zh: 所以这可能有一些依据。
- start: 2311.965
  end: 2322.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, just as an aside,  You know that in the earliest decades of the church, there was a real sense of the imminence of Jesus' return.
  zh: 事实上，顺便说一句，你知道在教会最早的几十年里，人们真的感觉到耶稣即将回来。
- start: 2325.938
  end: 2330.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: People are looking at their watches instead of the calendar for when is Jesus going to return.
  zh: 人们看的是手表而不是日历，等待耶稣何时回来。
- start: 2330.64
  end: 2335.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They had those hourglass watches like Fred Flintstone had.
  zh: 他们有像弗雷德·弗林斯通那样的沙漏手表。
- start: 2335.663
  end: 2339.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So they're looking at when is Jesus going to return any time now.
  zh: 所以他们在看耶稣随时可能回来。
- start: 2339.585
  end: 2345.7
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: By the end of the first century,  People are starting to go, well, okay, maybe not so much.
  zh: 到了第一世纪末，人们开始觉得，好吧，也许不是那么回事。
- start: 2345.7
  end: 2349.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, maybe there is going to be a second generation and a third generation of Christianity.
  zh: 你知道，也许会有第二代和第三代基督教。
- start: 2350.242
  end: 2358.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mazinism, in addition to everything else, seems to have been a resurgence of this idea of the imminent return of Christ.
  zh: 除了其他一切之外，孟他努主义似乎是基督即将再来这一观念的复兴。
- start: 2358.367
  end: 2360.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That he is coming back soon.
  zh: 他很快就会回来。
- start: 2360.848
  end: 2372.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And along with that, a more, let's say, literal interpretation of the book of Revelation.
  zh: 与此同时，对启示录有一个更加，我们可以说，字面上的解释。
- start: 2375.116
  end: 2384.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember that Irenaeus and Tertullian were both sympathetic or aligned with the Montanists.
  zh: 记住，爱任纽和特土良都对孟他努派表示同情或与之一致。
- start: 2384.04
  end: 2392.803
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Both Irenaeus and Tertullian had this dispensational literal interpretation of the book of Revelation.
  zh: 爱任纽和特土良都对启示录有这种时代论的字面解释。
- start: 2392.803
  end: 2405.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Hippolytus as well, I believe, they will admit that this was not  The majority understanding of that text in the early church.
  zh: 我相信希波吕托也是如此，他们会承认这并不是早期教会对该文本的主流理解。
- start: 2405.008
  end: 2414.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But they had this particular view of Revelation that interpreted it literally and dispensationally and in terms of an imminent return of Christ.
  zh: 但他们对启示录有这种特殊的看法，即从字面上和时代论的角度解释它，并认为基督即将再来。
- start: 2414.233
  end: 2428.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So even though Irenaeus and Tertullian represent mainstream Orthodox writing on Christology and Trinity and stuff, they're on the fringe with regard to eschatology.
  zh: 所以尽管爱任纽和特土良在基督论和三位一体等方面代表了主流正统的著作，但在末世论方面他们处于边缘。
- start: 2428.618
  end: 2434.627
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They had a, I would argue, a monotonous reading of the book of Revelation.
  zh: 我认为，他们对启示录有一种单调的解读。
- start: 2435.309
  end: 2457.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And as the New Testament is being compiled,  And as decisions are being made about what documents ought to be included in the New Testament, the book of Revelation almost didn't make it in because of the people who were interpreting it that way and because of this monotonous, if you will, interpretation of Revelation.
  zh: 当新约正在编纂时，当人们在决定哪些文件应该被纳入新约时，启示录几乎没有被收录，因为有人以这种方式解释它，也因为这种单调的，如果你愿意这么说的话，对启示录的解释。
- start: 2457.992
  end: 2475.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So those who were against including the book of Revelation in the New Testament canon  We're against it on the grounds that there were groups like this that were interpreting it in a way that the mainstream church, or apparently the majority of the church, was not.
  zh: 所以那些反对将启示录纳入新约正典的人反对它的理由是，有这样的团体以一种主流教会或显然大多数教会不认同的方式解释它。
- start: 2475.401
  end: 2488.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The majority of the church, we assume, would have interpreted it allegorically and would have seen it as highly symbolic, the way most of us would probably interpret it today, at least close to that.
  zh: 我们假设，教会的大多数人会以寓言的方式解释它，并将其视为高度象征性的，就像我们大多数人今天可能解释它的方式，至少接近那样。
- start: 2490.638
  end: 2499.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's just a little interesting aside, but you see how their eschatology is consistent with what they're doing in terms of prophecy.
  zh: 这只是一个有趣的题外话，但你看到他们的末世论与他们在预言方面所做的是一致的。
- start: 2501.422
  end: 2504.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let's see, what else do I want to say about this?
  zh: 让我看看，关于这个我还想说什么？
- start: 2505.824
  end: 2511.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The fear, I think, on the part of the mainstream church here is really twofold.
  zh: 我认为，主流教会在这里的担忧实际上是双重的。
- start: 2513.087
  end: 2525.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the one hand, you already see this coming, there is a fear that charismatic authority without  Hierarchical or Apostolic authority is dangerous.
  zh: 一方面，你已经看到这种情况即将发生，有一种担心认为没有等级制度或使徒权威的灵恩权威是危险的。
- start: 2525.045
  end: 2526.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Who knows what they'll teach?
  zh: 谁知道他们会教什么？
- start: 2526.146
  end: 2532.551
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, today they might not be teaching anything heretical, but who knows what they'll say tomorrow, you know, we can't control them.
  zh: 你知道，今天他们可能没有教导任何异端的东西，但谁知道他们明天会说什么，你知道，我们无法控制他们。
- start: 2532.751
  end: 2535.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, you know, you can't control the Holy Spirit, okay.
  zh: 好吧，你知道，你无法控制圣灵，好吗。
- start: 2536.254
  end: 2548.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other thing, then, is that the idea of ongoing prophecy or new revelation, I mean, look at what they call themselves, the new prophecy, right?
  zh: 另一件事是，持续预言或新启示的想法，我是说，看看他们怎么称呼自己，新预言，对吧？
- start: 2548.63
  end: 2562.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the fear for the mainstream church is that new prophecy might contradict tradition, and that somehow prophecy is antagonistic toward tradition.
  zh: 所以主流教会的担忧是，新预言可能会与传统相矛盾，而且预言在某种程度上与传统对立。
- start: 2564.055
  end: 2570.057
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Tradition being that which was handed down from the apostles, that which was believed in the previous generations.
  zh: 传统是指从使徒传下来的，是前几代人所相信的。
- start: 2570.057
  end: 2571.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You get the idea, right?
  zh: 你明白这个意思，对吧？
- start: 2571.458
  end: 2582.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there's this tension here, again, between apostolic authority, which  Develops a hierarchy and charismatic authority.
  zh: 所以这里再次出现了使徒权威（发展出等级制度）和灵恩权威之间的紧张关系。
- start: 2585.845
  end: 2588.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Questions so far?
  zh: 到目前为止有什么问题吗？
- start: 2590.768
  end: 2592.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That all make sense?
  zh: 这些都说得通吗？
- start: 2595.427
  end: 2603.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To be fair, Tertullian would say that prophecy really just aids in the interpretation of Scripture.
  zh: 公平地说，特土良会说预言实际上只是帮助解释圣经。
- start: 2603.071
  end: 2625.101
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Tertullian does not seem to have thought that prophecy would replace Scripture, contradict Scripture, or anything, but he seems to have believed that without prophecy, without ongoing prophecy, one ran the risk of interpreting Scripture in the direction of heresy.
  zh: 特土良似乎并不认为预言会取代圣经、与圣经相矛盾或其他什么，但他似乎相信，没有预言，没有持续的预言，人就有可能朝着异端的方向解释圣经。
- start: 2626.186
  end: 2638.349
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that for the Montanists, prophecy, ongoing prophecy, was necessary for the correct interpretation of Scripture.
  zh: 所以对孟他努派来说，预言，持续的预言，对于正确解释圣经是必要的。
- start: 2645.832
  end: 2658.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, the mainstream church's response to this is to, over time, exclude prophecy  From the offices of the church.
  zh: 现在，主流教会对此的回应是，随着时间的推移，将预言从教会的职位中排除。
- start: 2658.387
  end: 2667.289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you look at 1 Corinthians 12, Paul lists all the spiritual gifts, and one of them is prophecy.
  zh: 如果你看哥林多前书12章，保罗列出了所有的属灵恩赐，其中一个是预言。
- start: 2667.989
  end: 2674.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Almost all of these spiritual gifts end up as some sort of office within the church, but not prophecy.
  zh: 几乎所有这些属灵恩赐最终都成为教会内的某种职位，但预言没有。
- start: 2674.37
  end: 2682.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Prophecy goes by the wayside, and it is basically replaced by preaching.
  zh: 预言被搁置一旁，基本上被讲道所取代。
- start: 2682.688
  end: 2694.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the exposition of biblical texts in preaching and the exhortation to the imitation of Christ's preaching replaces prophecy.
  zh: 因此，在讲道中对圣经文本的阐释和对效法基督讲道的劝勉取代了预言。
- start: 2694.672
  end: 2708.176
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the office of prophet is absorbed by the presider or the priest who interprets the scriptures for the gathered community.
  zh: 所以先知的职分被主持人或为聚集的会众解释圣经的神父所吸收。
- start: 2708.176
  end: 2712.797
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the scriptures are read, the presider then interprets and exhorts.
  zh: 所以圣经被宣读，然后主持人解释和劝勉。
- start: 2713.779
  end: 2726.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the idea is there that it is not new prophecy because in fact prophecy or revelation is limited to the apostolic documents.
  zh: 但这里的观点是，这不是新的预言，因为事实上预言或启示仅限于使徒文献。
- start: 2726.883
  end: 2733.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so you see we're closing the canon here as a response to Montanism and the new prophecy.
  zh: 所以你看，我们在这里封闭正典，作为对孟他努主义和新预言的回应。
- start: 2733.625
  end: 2779.917
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're closing the canon and we're also in some sense closing the door on women in leadership because of the Montanists and  Because of the ancient world's assumption that somehow women are more emotional than men, and we're not going to argue whether that's true or has a grand truth, we won't deal with that now, but the point is that if you believe women are more emotional than men, then they took that  To assume that therefore women are more susceptible to emotionalism and to this ecstatic, trans thing and the charismatic gifts and all of this.
  zh: 我们正在封闭正典，在某种意义上也在关闭女性领导的大门，这是因为孟他努派和古代世界假设女性在某种程度上比男性更感性，我们不会争论这是否真实或有什么深刻的真理，我们现在不会讨论这个，但重点是如果你相信女性比男性更感性，那么他们就认为女性更容易受到情绪主义、这种狂喜、恍惚状态和灵恩恩赐等所有这些的影响。
- start: 2779.917
  end: 2782.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Does that make sense?
  zh: 这说得通吗？
- start: 2782.559
  end: 2791.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the mind of the mainstream males of the early church,  It's all sort of part and parcel of the same thing.
  zh: 在早期教会主流男性的思想中，这些都是同一件事的组成部分。
- start: 2792.155
  end: 2810.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so we begin to close the door on women in leadership roles because of the connection between Montanism's new prophecy, charismatic gifts and female prophets within that movement.
  zh: 因此，由于孟他努主义的新预言、灵恩恩赐和该运动中的女先知之间的联系，我们开始关闭女性担任领导角色的大门。
- start: 2811.782
  end: 2816.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But how do they decide which women will prophesy and which will not?
  zh: 但他们如何决定哪些女性会预言，哪些不会？
- start: 2817.169
  end: 2818.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not clear.
  zh: 这不清楚。
- start: 2819.231
  end: 2824.675
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I suppose if you were to ask a Montanist, they would say, well, we don't decide.
  zh: 我想如果你问一个孟他努派信徒，他们会说，嗯，我们不决定。
- start: 2824.675
  end: 2832.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Holy Spirit decides, and the person shows evidence of the gift of prophecy.
  zh: 圣灵决定，而且这个人显示出预言恩赐的证据。
- start: 2833.401
  end: 2837.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Whether they then tested the prophecy in any way is unclear.
  zh: 他们是否以任何方式测试预言还不清楚。
- start: 2837.103
  end: 2840.986
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I've never seen anything that said one way or the other how they did that.
  zh: 我从未见过任何说明他们如何做到这一点的记载。
- start: 2850.259
  end: 2869.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, so, by the time that we get into the middle of the third century or so, and certainly by the late third century, the church, the universal church, such as it is at the time, is really defined as the church of the bishops.
  zh: 好的，所以到了三世纪中叶左右，当然到了三世纪末，教会，普世教会，就像当时那样，真的被定义为主教的教会。
- start: 2870.148
  end: 2875.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So to be in the church is to be under the authority of a bishop.
  zh: 所以在教会中就是在主教的权威之下。
- start: 2875.593
  end: 2884.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in any given city, there would be one bishop, one point of authority, certainly by the mid to late 3rd century.
  zh: 在任何特定的城市，到三世纪中后期肯定会有一位主教，一个权威点。
- start: 2887.182
  end: 2903.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we're closing the canon because the power  That monotheism gave those outside the hierarchy, in terms of new prophecy, was considered dangerous.
  zh: 我们正在封闭正典，因为一神论在新预言方面给予那些等级制度之外的人的权力被认为是危险的。
- start: 2903.798
  end: 2917.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Direct access to God without human mediators, without going through the hierarchical channels, was considered dangerous and the fear was that  Music will be omitted.
  zh: 不通过人类中介，不经过等级渠道直接接触神被认为是危险的，人们担心……音乐将被省略。
- start: 2933.633
  end: 2939.695
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Ended with the Apostolic Age and the Apostolic Documents and with the canon as we have it.
  zh: 随着使徒时代和使徒文献的结束，以及我们现有的正典的形成而结束。
- start: 2940.975
  end: 2948.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then the office of prophecy is sort of usurped or absorbed by the preaching office.
  zh: 然后预言的职分被讲道的职分某种程度上篡夺或吸收了。
- start: 2949.237
  end: 2958.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it belongs to the clergy so that eventually, you know, preaching is the prerogative of the bishop or those priests whom the bishop will authorize.
  zh: 但它属于神职人员，所以最终，你知道，讲道是主教或那些主教授权的神父的特权。
- start: 2960.781
  end: 2964.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So we have a couple of things  Closing the door on women in leadership.
  zh: 所以我们有几件事：关闭女性领导的大门。
- start: 2964.459
  end: 2965.959
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The separation of a professional clergy from laity.
  zh: 专业神职人员与平信徒的分离。
- start: 2965.959
  end: 2967.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that lay people aren't out there prophesying.
  zh: 所以平信徒不会在那里预言。
- start: 2967.64
  end: 2969.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Clergy talks, laity listens.
  zh: 神职人员说话，平信徒听。
- start: 2969.201
  end: 2972.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Maybe I'm overstating that.
  zh: 也许我说得过分了。
- start: 2990.632
  end: 2993.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, that's kind of where we're getting to.
  zh: 我的意思是，我们正在朝这个方向发展。
- start: 2996.197
  end: 3001.381
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the laity become excluded from participation in certain acts of ministry.
  zh: 因此，平信徒被排除在某些事工参与之外。
- start: 3001.582
  end: 3019.181
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I said this, again, when I was talking to the VFCL group, I said, you know, what ends up happening  And so, we're going to talk about the persecutions and stuff next week, and that really cements what I'm about to say because we get this sort of circling the wagons effect during the persecution.
  zh: 我再次说这个，当我和VFCL小组交谈时，我说，你知道，最终会发生什么。所以，我们下周将讨论迫害等问题，这真的巩固了我即将说的内容，因为我们在迫害期间得到了这种团结一致的效果。
- start: 3019.181
  end: 3040.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what ends up happening is that by the end of the third century, and again, I may be overstating this, but I would argue that we make a shift from Christianity as Christians ministering to the world to  Christianity as clergy ministering to laity.
  zh: 但最终发生的是，到了三世纪末，再次说明，我可能夸大了，但我认为我们从基督徒向世界传道的基督教转变为神职人员向平信徒传道的基督教。
- start: 3041.481
  end: 3042.601
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: See the difference?
  zh: 看到区别了吗？
- start: 3044.382
  end: 3046.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now again, I am overstating that.
  zh: 现在再说一遍，我夸大了这一点。
- start: 3046.463
  end: 3048.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's probably unfair.
  zh: 这可能不公平。
- start: 3048.644
  end: 3054.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that trend exists in the development of what it means to be clergy.
  zh: 但这种趋势存在于神职人员含义的发展中。
- start: 3055.627
  end: 3081.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, especially after the persecution then, when the church understandably becomes more inwardly focused, the direction of ministry  You see how these issues of charismatic vs. apostolic authority play out.
  zh: 因此，特别是在迫害之后，当教会可以理解地变得更加内向时，事工的方向……你看到这些灵恩权威与使徒权威的问题是如何展开的。
- start: 3081.497
  end: 3086.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Obviously, what wins is the apostolic authority and the development of the hierarchy.
  zh: 显然，获胜的是使徒权威和等级制度的发展。
- start: 3089.442
  end: 3090.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Questions?
  zh: 有问题吗？
- start: 3092.758
  end: 3099.304
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why did Tertullian think that prophecy was good?
  zh: 为什么特土良认为预言是好的？
- start: 3099.304
  end: 3105.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think that for whatever reason he was not afraid of what the prophets might say.
  zh: 我认为，无论出于什么原因，他并不害怕先知可能会说什么。
- start: 3108.095
  end: 3111.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Which is really interesting when you think of it, because remember, Tertullian was not a bishop.
  zh: 当你想到这一点时，这真的很有趣，因为记住，特土良不是主教。
- start: 3111.956
  end: 3114.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So he may have been a priest, but even that's debatable.
  zh: 所以他可能是一个神父，但即使这也是有争议的。
- start: 3114.617
  end: 3116.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're not exactly sure.
  zh: 我们不完全确定。
- start: 3117.658
  end: 3121.38
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So we're not sure if he was a priest, but we know he was never a bishop.
  zh: 所以我们不确定他是否是神父，但我们知道他从未成为主教。
- start: 3121.38
  end: 3126.881
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So here's a guy who is defining the church, defining Orthodoxy.
  zh: 所以这里有一个人在定义教会，定义正统信仰。
- start: 3126.881
  end: 3131.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, maybe he doesn't realize he's doing it at the time, but he's writing these theological documents.
  zh: 我的意思是，也许他当时没有意识到自己在做这件事，但他正在写这些神学文件。
- start: 3133.021
  end: 3141.304
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And yet he doesn't seem to be afraid that he'll be contradicted by some new revelation.
  zh: 然而他似乎并不害怕会被某些新的启示所反驳。
- start: 3142.465
  end: 3147.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He seems to have a sense of, I mean, can we say trust in the Holy Spirit?
  zh: 他似乎有一种感觉，我的意思是，我们可以说是对圣灵的信任吗？
- start: 3147.086
  end: 3148.947
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Does that sound right?
  zh: 这听起来对吗？
- start: 3150.628
  end: 3151.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What do you think?
  zh: 你怎么看？
- start: 3152.769
  end: 3156.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I didn't hear the question.
  zh: 我没听到问题。
- start: 3156.39
  end: 3157.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh, I'm sorry.
  zh: 哦，对不起。
- start: 3157.07
  end: 3159.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Do you want to say it again louder?
  zh: 你想再大声说一遍吗？
- start: 3160.163
  end: 3172.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the question was, why was Tertullian willing to be a part of the Montanists if he was so mainstreamed theologically?
  zh: 所以问题是，如果特土良在神学上如此主流，为什么他愿意成为孟他努派的一部分？
- start: 3174.068
  end: 3178.65
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I was saying that he doesn't seem to have been afraid of, you know, whatever the prophets might be.
  zh: 我说他似乎并不害怕，你知道，无论先知可能是什么。
- start: 3178.65
  end: 3183.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And I think his rigorism appeals to him, or their rigorism appeals to him.
  zh: 我认为他的严格主义吸引了他，或者说他们的严格主义吸引了他。
- start: 3183.271
  end: 3187.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I mean, I think, you know, Tertullian kind of...
  zh: 我的意思是，我认为，你知道，特土良有点……
- start: 3188.837
  end: 3190.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Absolutely, yeah.
  zh: 绝对是的，没错。
- start: 3191.86
  end: 3196.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's a very strict moralist.
  zh: 他是一个非常严格的道德主义者。
- start: 3196.183
  end: 3201.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, and their interpretation of Revelation as well.
  zh: 是的，还有他们对启示录的解释。
- start: 3201.988
  end: 3204.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So these things appeal to him as well.
  zh: 所以这些东西也吸引了他。
- start: 3205.03
  end: 3206.591
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3216.972
  end: 3228.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, that's a good question, and I don't know of anything where there's any interaction between Montanism and the so-called heretical groups.
  zh: 你知道，这是一个好问题，我不知道有什么孟他努主义和所谓异端团体之间的互动。
- start: 3228.665
  end: 3236.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, there were some  who accused the Montanists of being modalists.
  zh: 现在，有一些人指责孟他努派是形态论者。
- start: 3236.812
  end: 3241.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when we talked about modalism last time, or whenever that was, yeah.
  zh: 所以当我们上次谈到形态论时，或者不管是什么时候，是的。
- start: 3241.795
  end: 3250.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But clearly that was not the case in the early third century because, you know, Tertullian's a Montanist writing against modalism.
  zh: 但显然在三世纪初期并非如此，因为你知道，特土良是一个反对形态论的孟他努派信徒。
- start: 3250.699
  end: 3253.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the Montanists couldn't possibly have been modalists.
  zh: 所以孟他努派不可能是形态论者。
- start: 3254.02
  end: 3259.616
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But there's some, again, it might be simply confusion on the part of their enemies.
  zh: 但是有一些，再次说明，这可能只是他们敌人的混淆。
- start: 3259.616
  end: 3268.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But there are one or two sources later, in later third or early fourth century, where they say that the Monsonists are also modalists.
  zh: 但在后来，在三世纪末或四世纪初，有一两个资料说孟他努派也是形态论者。
- start: 3268.844
  end: 3281.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, you can kind of see how that might happen if Monsonists placed such an emphasis on the Holy Spirit that they blur the lines of distinction between Father, Son, and Spirit.
  zh: 现在，你可以看到如果孟他努派如此强调圣灵以至于模糊了圣父、圣子和圣灵之间的区别，这种情况可能会发生。
- start: 3281.334
  end: 3287.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But we don't know of any, I don't know of any interaction between other groups and the Monsonists.
  zh: 但我们不知道有任何，我不知道有任何其他团体和孟他努派之间的互动。
- start: 3288.829
  end: 3294.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a great question, but unfortunately we just may not have any documentation.
  zh: 这是一个很好的问题，但不幸的是我们可能没有任何文献记载。
- start: 3302.752
  end: 3306.274
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When it comes to women in leadership, there's a couple of factors working against women.
  zh: 说到女性领导，有几个因素不利于女性。
- start: 3306.274
  end: 3330.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so one certainly is Montanism, because Montanism was seen, even though it started by Montaigne,  His daughters take on a major role.
  zh: 其中之一肯定是孟他努主义，因为孟他努主义被视为，尽管它是由孟他努开始的，他的女儿们扮演了重要角色。
- start: 3330.821
  end: 3342.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, Montanism came to be seen as, this is what happened, now forgive me, women, this is not my opinion, I'm paraphrasing the early church.
  zh: 所以，孟他努主义被视为，这就是发生的事，现在请原谅我，女士们，这不是我的观点，我只是在转述早期教会的看法。
- start: 3343.499
  end: 3348.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it came to be seen as sort of, this is what happens when you let women run things.
  zh: 但它被视为，这就是当你让女性掌权时会发生的事。
- start: 3348.54
  end: 3357.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It gets over-emotional, over-zealous, they go into trances, they fall down, they speak in tongues, who knows what's going to happen.
  zh: 它变得过于情绪化，过于狂热，他们进入恍惚状态，他们倒下，他们说方言，谁知道会发生什么。
- start: 3357.223
  end: 3371.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, it's based on the idea that, it goes back to a stoic idea that true virtue is to suppress the passions and the emotions and to be guided by reason and will.
  zh: 再次说明，这是基于这样一种观念，它可以追溯到斯多葛学派的观念，即真正的美德是压制激情和情感，由理性和意志引导。
- start: 3372.156
  end: 3375.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it's really only men that can do that very well.
  zh: 但真正能做到这一点的只有男性。
- start: 3375.097
  end: 3378.899
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That was, you know, sort of the assumption.
  zh: 那是，你知道，某种假设。
- start: 3379.619
  end: 3384.861
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Suppress the passions and the emotions and to be guided by reason and by the will.
  zh: 压制激情和情感，由理性和意志引导。
- start: 3385.402
  end: 3386.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, by reason.
  zh: 嗯，由理性。
- start: 3388.083
  end: 3392.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And for a woman to do that, she would be acting like a man.
  zh: 而对于一个女性来说，如果她这样做，她就会表现得像个男人。
- start: 3393.105
  end: 3394.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember My Fair Lady?
  zh: 还记得《窈窕淑女》吗？
- start: 3394.046
  end: 3395.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why can't a woman be more like a man?
  zh: 为什么女人不能更像男人？
- start: 3395.586
  end: 3396.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember that song?
  zh: 记得那首歌吗？
- start: 3396.787
  end: 3398.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm not going to try and sing it.
  zh: 我不会尝试唱它。
- start: 3400.543
  end: 3408.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's one thing that we have working against the concept of women in leadership.
  zh: 所以这是我们反对女性领导概念的一个因素。
- start: 3408.428
  end: 3417.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Another thing is other groups that were considered heretical apparently had women in some leadership roles.
  zh: 另一件事是，其他被认为是异端的团体显然在一些领导角色中有女性。
- start: 3418.274
  end: 3427.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Irenaeus has one passage where he talks about some Gnostics who had women participating in a version of the Eucharist.
  zh: 爱任纽有一段话谈到一些诺斯替派让女性参与某种版本的圣餐。
- start: 3427.16
  end: 3434.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, the mainstream church  If the church has women in leadership, it will somehow lose credibility in the culture.
  zh: 所以再次说明，主流教会认为如果教会有女性领导，它在文化中会以某种方式失去可信度。
- start: 3452.581
  end: 3459.429
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Or it will be seen like one of the pagan cults that worships a goddess and has a female priesthood.
  zh: 或者它会被视为崇拜女神并有女祭司的异教崇拜之一。
- start: 3459.77
  end: 3470.863
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So all of these things work together so that by the time you have a developing hierarchy, women are shut out of that hierarchy.
  zh: 所以所有这些因素共同作用，以至于当你有一个发展中的等级制度时，女性被排除在这个等级制度之外。
- start: 3471.887
  end: 3504.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now there is also a theological argument that comes into play, which you aren't going to agree with, I can tell you that right now, but the theological argument that comes into play is that if the church is the bride of Christ, Christ is therefore the groom, and if the priest stands in the place of Christ,  The priest is the groom to the assembly's bride, and so therefore the priest has to be male.
  zh: 现在还有一个神学论点被提出来，你可能不会同意，我现在就可以告诉你，但这个神学论点是，如果教会是基督的新娘，那么基督就是新郎，如果神父代表基督，那么神父就是会众新娘的新郎，因此神父必须是男性。
- start: 3504.22
  end: 3507.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is the theological justification for it.
  zh: 这就是它的神学理由。
- start: 3508.382
  end: 3509.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Didn't expect you to buy it, I'm just saying.
  zh: 我并不期望你接受它，我只是在说明。
- start: 3509.964
  end: 3511.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That was very creative.
  zh: 那很有创意。
- start: 3517.036
  end: 3526.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, you know, I mean, it makes a certain logical sense, but it really is, I think, an argument after the fact.
  zh: 嗯，你知道，我的意思是，它在逻辑上有一定的意义，但我认为这真的是事后的论证。
- start: 3526.782
  end: 3530.905
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It wasn't as though they came up with that argument and said, therefore, we're going to exclude women from ministry.
  zh: 并不是他们提出这个论点然后说，因此，我们要将女性排除在事工之外。
- start: 3530.905
  end: 3540.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It was, there were other reasons that women were excluded from leadership, and then that becomes this sort of theological justification for it.
  zh: 事实是，有其他原因导致女性被排除在领导地位之外，然后这成为了一种神学上的理由。
- start: 3541.511
  end: 3543.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, the priest was becoming a woman.
  zh: 嗯，神父正在变成一个女人。
- start: 3544.052
  end: 3545.553
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: She was becoming a bride.
  zh: 她正在成为一个新娘。
- start: 3547.391
  end: 3551.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The priest stands in the place of Christ, so he's the groom.
  zh: 神父代表基督，所以他是新郎。
- start: 3552.507
  end: 3554.411
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The rest of the church is the bride.
  zh: 教会的其他部分是新娘。
- start: 3554.833
  end: 3577.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's like if you're in a worship service and the priest is standing up front and the rest of the assembly is here, it's like the assembly represents the church, the bride of Christ, the priest represents Christ, the groom, and so that eschatological picture is symbolized in the assembly of the worship service.
  zh: 所以就像你在崇拜仪式中，神父站在前面，其他会众在这里，就好像会众代表教会，基督的新娘，神父代表基督，新郎，因此这个末世的图景在崇拜仪式的集会中被象征化了。
- start: 3579.611
  end: 3581.596
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, somebody over here was going to say something?
  zh: 现在，这边有人要说什么吗？
- start: 3581.596
  end: 3600.612
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I was just thinking that, well, if Mary is the mother of Christ, then the woman,  You can certainly make that argument, but the mainstream males had counter-arguments to that.
  zh: 我只是在想，嗯，如果马利亚是基督的母亲，那么女人……你当然可以提出这个论点，但主流男性对此有反驳的论点。
- start: 3600.612
  end: 3606.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like, if women were meant to baptize, Jesus would have been baptized by his mother.
  zh: 比如，如果女性注定要施洗，耶稣就会被他的母亲施洗。
- start: 3607.357
  end: 3617.074
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Or, if women were meant to preach, then Jesus would have sent women out with a 72.  The story of Martha and Mary.
  zh: 或者，如果女性注定要传道，那么耶稣就会派女性和72人一起出去。马大和马利亚的故事。
- start: 3617.074
  end: 3622.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary sits at the feet of Jesus, she listens, but there's no story where she goes out and preaches.
  zh: 马利亚坐在耶稣脚前，她倾听，但没有她出去传道的故事。
- start: 3622.937
  end: 3626.378
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, I'm just telling you what they would say.
  zh: 再说一遍，我只是告诉你他们会怎么说。
- start: 3626.378
  end: 3640.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: So then, a current example of that fundamentalist movement, Gary Falwell, in his book, he pretty much does that whole thing in a whole section on women, as to why women should not be in leadership in the church.
  zh: 所以，这种基要主义运动的一个当前例子是加里·法尔韦尔，在他的书中，他在关于女性的整个章节中基本上都在讨论为什么女性不应该在教会中担任领导职务。
- start: 3640.785
  end: 3648.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: He goes into a 30-page thing of basically all of those  Well, yeah, there's some similarities there.
  zh: 他用30页的篇幅基本上讨论了所有这些……嗯，是的，那里有一些相似之处。
- start: 3664.656
  end: 3680.61
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Fundamentalism is not the only tradition that currently excludes women from ministry, because as you know, some of the oldest Christian traditions continue to take that approach.
  zh: 基要主义并不是目前唯一排斥女性参与事工的传统，因为你知道，一些最古老的基督教传统继续采取这种方法。
- start: 3680.61
  end: 3683.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some of the same arguments are still being used.
  zh: 一些相同的论点仍在被使用。
- start: 3688.063
  end: 3689.084
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you understand.
  zh: 但你理解。
- start: 3689.084
  end: 3697.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're going to hear more about women in the early church, so maybe I shouldn't try to say too much, especially as a male.
  zh: 我们将听到更多关于早期教会中女性的内容，所以也许我不应该说太多，特别是作为一个男性。
- start: 3698.269
  end: 3715.278
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it's relevant here in terms of the development of the hierarchy and the suppression of the role of prophecy, etc. Now, what else do you want to talk about at this point?
  zh: 但这与等级制度的发展和预言角色的压制等有关。现在，在这一点上你还想谈什么？
- start: 3715.278
  end: 3717.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Any other questions or comments?
  zh: 还有其他问题或评论吗？
- start: 3720.36
  end: 3725.124
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: No? Okay, well then we're going to take a break.
  zh: 没有吗？好的，那么我们要休息一下。
- start: 3725.124
  end: 3737.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it is almost 25 to, so let's shoot for like, you know, 10 to 8 or something like that to come back and we'll hear about early Christian liturgy, worship in the early church.
  zh: 现在快到差25分了，所以让我们定个目标，比如说7点50左右回来，我们将听到关于早期基督教礼仪，早期教会的崇拜的内容。
- start: 3737.933
  end: 3740.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, we'll see you in like 15 minutes.
  zh: 所以，我们15分钟后见。
