- start: 0.094
  end: 7.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So tonight, in the second hour, we're going to be following up on what we've been talking about with medieval spirituality.
  zh: 今晚第二个小时，我们将继续讨论中世纪灵修的话题。
- start: 7.76
  end: 11.062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We've been talking about saints and relics and icons.
  zh: 我们一直在讨论圣人、圣物和圣像。
- start: 11.323
  end: 14.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And now we're going to talk about Mary.
  zh: 现在我们要谈谈马利亚。
- start: 15.126
  end: 18.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the rest of tonight is devoted to Mary.
  zh: 今晚剩下的时间都将用来讨论马利亚。
- start: 19.649
  end: 45.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And again, like with the other topics, I hope that you'll see out of this that a lot of the traditions of devotion to Mary aren't as  Mary is considered the first Christian because she's the first one to say yes to Christ.
  zh: 再次强调，就像其他话题一样，我希望你们能从中看出，许多对马利亚的敬奉传统并不像人们想象的那样。马利亚被认为是第一位基督徒，因为她是第一个对基督说「是」的人。
- start: 45.906
  end: 56.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: When the angel comes to her and she gives her assent, she says yes and so she's the first one to accept Christ, as it were.
  zh: 当天使来到她面前时，她表示同意，说了「是」，因此她可以说是第一个接受基督的人。
- start: 60.424
  end: 70.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We talk about Mary as the mother of Jesus, and we call her the Virgin Mary because, of course, she's presented in Scripture as a virgin.
  zh: 我们称马利亚为耶稣的母亲，也称她为童贞马利亚，因为圣经中当然将她描述为童贞女。
- start: 70.811
  end: 107.982
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, you probably know that in Isaiah, the passage that is sort of the background to all of this, Isaiah 7.14, that in the Hebrew, the word for virgin means really just young,  But I think too much is made of that because, let's face it, in the ancient world, if you are a young unmarried woman, you are a virgin.
  zh: 你们可能知道，在以赛亚书中，作为这一切背景的经文是以赛亚书7章14节，在希伯来文中，「童贞女」这个词实际上只是意味着「年轻」。但我认为人们过分强调这一点了，因为让我们面对现实吧，在古代世界，如果你是一个年轻未婚的女子，你就是童贞女。
- start: 107.982
  end: 112.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So the question is not, was she a virgin before?
  zh: 所以问题不在于她之前是否是童贞女。
- start: 114.276
  end: 117.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But was she still a virgin after?
  zh: 而是在于之后她是否仍然是童贞女。
- start: 117.297
  end: 118.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That really becomes the question.
  zh: 这才是真正的问题所在。
- start: 118.478
  end: 123.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, in the Septuagint of Isaiah 7.14, virgin means virgin.
  zh: 在七十士译本的以赛亚书7章14节中，「童贞女」就是指童贞女。
- start: 123.86
  end: 129.001
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so Matthew is following the Septuagint, as you would expect him to.
  zh: 因此马太福音遵循了七十士译本，这正如你所预料的那样。
- start: 130.242
  end: 134.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The virginity of Mary is important because it demonstrates three things.
  zh: 马利亚的童贞很重要，因为它证明了三件事。
- start: 135.504
  end: 141.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The virginity of Mary demonstrates that it is God who creates life.
  zh: 马利亚的童贞证明了是神创造生命。
- start: 142.113
  end: 173.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, very much like the Old Testament stories of barren women who give birth, the story of Mary giving birth to Jesus emphasizes that this is not the effect of regular human relations, that this is a miracle, and that it is God who creates life, and specifically with regard to the Incarnation,  That the Incarnation is an act of God.
  zh: 换句话说，就像旧约中不孕妇女生育的故事一样，马利亚生下耶稣的故事强调这不是正常人类关系的结果，而是一个奇迹，是神创造了生命，特别是关于道成肉身，道成肉身是神的作为。
- start: 173.146
  end: 175.186
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the first thing is that God creates life.
  zh: 所以第一点是神创造生命。
- start: 175.186
  end: 179.627
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The second thing is that the Incarnation is divine intervention.
  zh: 第二点是道成肉身是神的干预。
- start: 180.948
  end: 185.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then the third thing is that Jesus is unique among humanity.
  zh: 第三点是耶稣在人类中是独特的。
- start: 185.949
  end: 188.95
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He is one of us, but He is also unique among us.
  zh: 他是我们中的一员，但他在我们中间也是独一无二的。
- start: 190.691
  end: 199.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the point that I'm hoping to make tonight is that what the Church teaches about Mary is really about Christ.
  zh: 所以我今晚希望强调的是，教会关于马利亚的教导实际上是关于基督的。
- start: 199.52
  end: 208.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And when we talk about Marian doctrines or Marian devotion, we're really talking Christology on some level.
  zh: 当我们谈论马利亚教义或对马利亚的敬奉时，在某种程度上我们实际上是在讨论基督论。
- start: 208.026
  end: 213.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you've already seen this with the concept of the Theotokos, that Mary is the God-bearer.
  zh: 你们已经在「神的母亲」这个概念中看到了这一点，即马利亚是神的承载者。
- start: 213.871
  end: 224.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what that emphasizes is that what Mary gave birth to is not a mere man only, but the divine Christ.
  zh: 这强调的是马利亚所生的不仅仅是一个普通人，而是神圣的基督。
- start: 228.021
  end: 239.38
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember that  The early writers also talked about Jesus' birth when they wanted to prove his humanity.
  zh: 请记住，早期作者在想要证明耶稣的人性时也谈到了他的诞生。
- start: 240.101
  end: 249.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the interesting thing is, you would think, okay, virgin birth, the first thing that the early writers are going to do is use that as evidence for Jesus' divinity.
  zh: 有趣的是，你可能会认为，好吧，童贞女生子，早期作者首先要做的就是用它来证明耶稣的神性。
- start: 249.768
  end: 251.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But they really didn't so much.
  zh: 但他们实际上并没有这么做。
- start: 251.049
  end: 254.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They used his birth as evidence of his humanity.
  zh: 他们用他的诞生作为他人性的证据。
- start: 254.852
  end: 260.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, he went through a real human birth with all that that entails.
  zh: 换句话说，他经历了真实的人类出生过程，包括所有相关的细节。
- start: 260.7
  end: 267.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so in the birth of Christ, we see both his divine nature and his human nature.
  zh: 因此，在基督的诞生中，我们既看到了他的神性，也看到了他的人性。
- start: 267.801
  end: 271.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Both natures are demonstrated in his birth.
  zh: 他的诞生展现了他的两种本性。
- start: 272.062
  end: 275.523
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary, as his mother, is the new Eve.
  zh: 马利亚作为他的母亲，是新的夏娃。
- start: 275.523
  end: 279.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now remember the typology here, going all the way back to Irenaeus and even before.
  zh: 现在请记住这里的预表论，它可以追溯到爱任纽，甚至更早。
- start: 279.704
  end: 297.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary is the new Eve, undoing what Eve did, but  Not to make Eve out to be evil, but to make Mary Eve's advocate, in a sense.
  zh: 马利亚是新的夏娃，她纠正了夏娃所做的事，但这并不是要把夏娃说成是邪恶的，而是在某种意义上让马利亚成为夏娃的代言人。
- start: 297.628
  end: 303.512
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When Paul talks about Christ as the new Adam, there's the same typology going on there.
  zh: 当保罗谈到基督是新亚当时，也使用了同样的预表论。
- start: 303.512
  end: 306.833
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Where Adam failed, Christ succeeded, passed the test.
  zh: 在亚当失败的地方，基督成功了，通过了考验。
- start: 306.833
  end: 312.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But in doing that, Christ redeems Adam.
  zh: 但通过这样做，基督救赎了亚当。
- start: 312.677
  end: 327.56
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I'm not going to use the exact same language for Mary, but there is a bit of a parallel here, in the sense that where Eve failed, Mary succeeded, because Eve said no to God, and Mary said yes to God.
  zh: 现在，我不会用完全相同的语言来描述马利亚，但这里确实有一些相似之处，在夏娃失败的地方，马利亚成功了，因为夏娃对神说「不」，而马利亚对神说「是」。
- start: 327.62
  end: 336.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, not that Mary redeems Eve, but Mary is, in a sense, Eve's advocate in this typology.
  zh: 因此，并不是说马利亚救赎了夏娃，但在这种预表论中，马利亚在某种意义上是夏娃的代言人。
- start: 337.942
  end: 340.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Mary is the mother of our Savior.
  zh: 所以马利亚是我们救主的母亲。
- start: 341.091
  end: 352.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But she's more than just the mother of Jesus, because if we become brothers and sisters of Christ, on some level, she becomes our mother, too.
  zh: 但她不仅仅是耶稣的母亲，因为如果我们成为基督的兄弟姐妹，在某种程度上，她也成为我们的母亲。
- start: 352.158
  end: 356.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, she's considered the mother of the Church.
  zh: 因此，她被视为教会的母亲。
- start: 356.86
  end: 373.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, if you, I don't know if you've read the book of Revelation lately, but Revelation chapter 12, we read of the woman crowned with the twelve stars,  And there's a couple of interpretations of this.
  zh: 现在，我不知道你最近是否读过启示录，但在启示录第12章，我们读到了头戴十二颗星的妇人。对此有几种解释。
- start: 373.969
  end: 388.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some interpret the woman as Israel, but I think the better interpretation is that the woman is Mary herself, because the text goes on to say that the woman gives birth to the male child, who is obviously Jesus.
  zh: 有些人将这个妇人解释为以色列，但我认为更好的解释是这个妇人就是马利亚本人，因为经文接着说这个妇人生了一个男孩，这显然是指耶稣。
- start: 388.951
  end: 405.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I'm going somewhere with this, but just to sort of emphasize that I think the imagery in the book of Revelation is  is about Mary herself, and not simply a symbol of Israel.
  zh: 现在，我要说明一点，就是要强调我认为启示录中的这个形象是关于马利亚本人的，而不仅仅是以色列的象征。
- start: 406.716
  end: 418.327
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember, if we accept the authorship of Revelation as John the Apostle, which I do, this is the one to whom Jesus entrusted his mother.
  zh: 请记住，如果我们接受启示录的作者是使徒约翰，而我确实如此，这就是耶稣将他母亲托付给的那个人。
- start: 418.327
  end: 423.832
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember the Gospel of John, Jesus on the cross, and Mary and John are there.
  zh: 记得约翰福音中，耶稣在十字架上，马利亚和约翰都在那里。
- start: 424.326
  end: 427.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Jesus says, woman, behold your son, behold your mother.
  zh: 耶稣说：「母亲，看你的儿子。看你的母亲。」
- start: 427.807
  end: 431.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so Jesus entrusts his mother to John.
  zh: 因此耶稣将他的母亲托付给了约翰。
- start: 431.888
  end: 439.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, according to tradition, Mary stayed with John, they went to Ephesus.
  zh: 根据传统，马利亚和约翰在一起，他们去了以弗所。
- start: 439.029
  end: 442.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we're going to get into that tradition in a minute.
  zh: 我们稍后会讨论这个传统。
- start: 442.63
  end: 453.312
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if that's true, if there's any truth in that, then the author of the book of Revelation is talking about this woman that he was entrusted with.
  zh: 但如果这是真的，如果这其中有任何真实性，那么启示录的作者就是在谈论这个被托付给他的女人。
- start: 453.646
  end: 454.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, all that is the same.
  zh: 所以，这一切都是一致的。
- start: 454.867
  end: 468.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You look at Revelation 12, and you look at how it says, okay, there's this woman, crowned with the twelve stars, she gives birth to the male child, the dragon attempts to kill the child.
  zh: 你看启示录第12章，看它是怎么说的，好，有一个妇人，头戴十二颗星，她生了一个男孩，龙企图杀害这个孩子。
- start: 468.857
  end: 472.74
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's clearly a reference to Herod's attempt at killing Jesus with the baby.
  zh: 这显然是指希律王企图杀害婴儿耶稣的事。
- start: 474.081
  end: 483.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Then it says, when the dragon couldn't devour the child, it turns to her other children.
  zh: 然后经文说，当龙不能吞吃那孩子时，它就转向她的其他儿女。
- start: 485.428
  end: 488.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you think, wait a minute, who are her other children?
  zh: 你会想，等一下，她的其他儿女是谁？
- start: 489.33
  end: 501.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And her other children are the church, the Christians, the brothers and sisters of Christ, spiritually speaking, who are being persecuted at the time that the document is written.
  zh: 她的其他儿女就是教会，是基督徒，从属灵意义上说是基督的兄弟姐妹，他们在这文献写作的时候正遭受迫害。
- start: 501.516
  end: 515.569
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So in other words, what the text of Revelation is saying here is that the same devil who tried to kill Jesus when he was a baby  is now trying to kill us with this persecution.
  zh: 换句话说，启示录的经文在这里说的是，那个试图在耶稣还是婴儿时杀害他的魔鬼，现在正试图通过这种迫害来杀害我们。
- start: 515.669
  end: 516.83
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's the point.
  zh: 这就是要点。
- start: 517.331
  end: 526.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But in saying that, the text calls all Christians, the church, the other children of Mary.
  zh: 但在这样说的同时，经文称所有基督徒，即教会，为马利亚的其他儿女。
- start: 526.26
  end: 529.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Mary becomes the mother of the church in that sense.
  zh: 因此，从这个意义上说，马利亚成为了教会的母亲。
- start: 533.846
  end: 541.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary is also understood to be the new ark.
  zh: 马利亚也被理解为新的约柜。
- start: 541.05
  end: 549.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember that the ark of the covenant was the vessel that held the written word of God.
  zh: 请记住，约柜是盛放神的成文之道的器皿。
- start: 549.395
  end: 552.416
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Moses takes the tablets and puts them in the ark.
  zh: 所以摩西拿着法版，将它们放入约柜。
- start: 552.478
  end: 556.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The ark is the vessel that holds the written Word of God.
  zh: 约柜是盛放神的成文之道的器皿。
- start: 556.179
  end: 561.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And now Mary becomes the vessel that holds the living Word of God, Jesus Christ.
  zh: 而现在马利亚成为了盛放神的活道，耶稣基督的器皿。
- start: 561.361
  end: 565.263
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Mary's womb is, in a sense, the new ark.
  zh: 所以从某种意义上说，马利亚的子宫就是新的约柜。
- start: 566.583
  end: 580.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you'll notice that in the Gospel when it talks about Jesus' conception at the Annunciation, it's described as  The Holy Spirit overshadowing her.
  zh: 你会注意到，在福音书中谈到耶稣受孕时，描述为圣灵荫庇她。
- start: 580.177
  end: 585.759
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The same language is used of the ark in the Old Testament, that God overshadows the ark.
  zh: 旧约中也用同样的语言描述约柜，说神荫庇约柜。
- start: 586.86
  end: 592.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, she is the new ark, she is the vessel that carries the Word of God.
  zh: 因此，她是新的约柜，是承载神之道的器皿。
- start: 592.482
  end: 595.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, okay, so far so good, right?
  zh: 到目前为止都很好，对吧？
- start: 595.843
  end: 597.143
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But here's the thing.
  zh: 但问题是这样的。
- start: 597.844
  end: 606.947
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The vessel that brings Christ into the world, it was widely understood, had to be without sin, had to be pure.
  zh: 人们普遍认为，将基督带到世上的器皿必须无罪，必须纯洁。
- start: 606.988
  end: 612.311
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, to bring the Savior into the world, the vessel has to be pure and without sin.
  zh: 换句话说，为了将救主带到世上，这个器皿必须纯洁无罪。
- start: 612.591
  end: 624.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So we have, from early on, the concept that Mary herself was born without original sin.
  zh: 所以我们很早就有了马利亚本人生来就没有原罪的概念。
- start: 624.518
  end: 631.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is what we refer to as the Immaculate Conception.
  zh: 这就是我们所说的无原罪怀孕。
- start: 638.407
  end: 640.649
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: That's only in the West, right?
  zh: 这只在西方教会有，对吧？
- start: 642.571
  end: 644.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's only in the West.
  zh: 确实只在西方教会有。
- start: 644.132
  end: 648.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I would have to check that.
  zh: 我得核实一下。
- start: 648.837
  end: 657.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Immaculate Conception, a lot of people assume that that is a reference to Jesus and his own virgin birth.
  zh: 很多人以为无原罪怀孕指的是耶稣和他的童贞女生子。
- start: 657.765
  end: 658.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it's not.
  zh: 但事实并非如此。
- start: 658.806
  end: 660.847
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a reference to Mary.
  zh: 它指的是马利亚。
- start: 661.288
  end: 664.691
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, remember the Protevangelion of James.
  zh: 现在，请记住《雅各原始福音》。
- start: 671.525
  end: 690.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In this 2nd century document, which is meant to be the story of the birth of Jesus, but also the backstory, the prequel to the Gospels.
  zh: 这份二世纪的文献不仅讲述了耶稣诞生的故事，也讲述了福音书的背景故事和前传。
- start: 690.91
  end: 695.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It tells the story not only of Jesus' birth, but of Mary's birth.
  zh: 它不仅讲述了耶稣的诞生，也讲述了马利亚的诞生。
- start: 695.432
  end: 701.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And already in the 2nd century, we have hints at a miraculous birth for Mary.
  zh: 在二世纪，我们就已经有了马利亚奇迹般诞生的暗示。
- start: 701.804
  end: 742.474
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not that her mother was a virgin, it's not a virginal birth, it's not the same as Jesus, but more along the lines of what we get about John the Baptist in the Gospels, or something along the lines of Abraham and Sarah in the Old Testament, that there is a miraculous aspect to the birth of Mary, and that  She has two human parents, but possibly parents who shouldn't normally be able to conceive, and so there's a sense that there's something miraculous going on.
  zh: 并不是说她的母亲是童贞女，这不是童贞女生子，不像耶稣那样，而是更类似于福音书中关于施洗约翰的记载，或者旧约中亚伯拉罕和撒拉的故事，马利亚的诞生有奇迹的成分。她有两个人类父母，但可能是正常情况下不应该能够怀孕的父母，所以有一种奇迹正在发生的感觉。
- start: 742.515
  end: 747.939
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the belief is that she was born without original sin.
  zh: 因此，人们相信她生来就没有原罪。
- start: 749.3
  end: 755.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Born without original sin, and then also committed no personal sin after her birth either.
  zh: 生来就没有原罪，而且在出生后也没有犯过个人的罪。
- start: 755.925
  end: 770.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, it's not a virgin birth, it's not the same as Jesus, but there's something miraculous going on, and that she's born without original sin, and that she lived her life without committing any sin of her own.
  zh: 所以再次强调，这不是童贞女生子，不同于耶稣的情况，但确实有奇迹发生，她生来就没有原罪，而且她一生都没有犯过任何罪。
- start: 772.535
  end: 776.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now this doesn't imply that she doesn't need a savior.
  zh: 这并不意味着她不需要救主。
- start: 776.858
  end: 778.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She does need a savior.
  zh: 她确实需要救主。
- start: 778.735
  end: 787.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She is saved by Christ as her Savior, sort of retroactively, in anticipation of her saying yes to God.
  zh: 她被基督作为她的救主所拯救，这种拯救是某种程度上的追溯性的，是为了预期她对神说「是」。
- start: 789.325
  end: 793.929
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, what I want to point out is, on the one hand, how early this is.
  zh: 现在，我想指出的是，一方面，这种观念出现得很早。
- start: 793.929
  end: 797.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This stuff goes all the way back to the second century.
  zh: 这些观念可以追溯到二世纪。
- start: 797.272
  end: 803.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the other hand, it's kind of fringy in the second century.
  zh: 另一方面，在二世纪这种观念还比较边缘。
- start: 803.297
  end: 811.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's not that this  It doesn't exist in the early church and then just sort of pops up, somebody makes it up in the Middle Ages.
  zh: 所以这并不是说这种观念在早期教会不存在，然后突然出现，有人在中世纪凭空创造出来的。
- start: 811.932
  end: 819.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Rather, it exists, but it's more on the fringes, more in popular devotion, and it works its way into the mainstream over time.
  zh: 相反，它是存在的，但更多是在边缘，更多是在民间信仰中，随着时间的推移才逐渐进入主流。
- start: 820.777
  end: 824.679
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means that's how it's laid out.
  zh: 所以这并不意味着它是错误的，只是说明了它的发展过程。
- start: 826.8
  end: 839.442
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Officially, though, it did not become a doctrine or a dogma of the church  until 1854. So now, this is really fast forward.
  zh: 不过，正式来说，直到1854年它才成为教会的教义或教条。所以现在，我们要快进到那个时期。
- start: 839.442
  end: 859.468
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's 1854, so obviously post-reformation, so this applies only to the Roman Catholic Church, but again, you know, what I want you to see is that it wasn't new then, and that, you know, the reformers were either responding to it or accepting it or whatever, but it was already there.
  zh: 这是1854年，显然是宗教改革之后，所以这只适用于罗马公教会，但再次强调，我希望你们看到的是，它在当时并不是新的，改革者们要么在回应它，要么在接受它，或者其他什么，但它已经存在了。
- start: 859.468
  end: 874.555
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But anyway, 1854, Pius IX  Now, think about what was going on in the world of religion at this time.
  zh: 无论如何，1854年，庇护九世。现在，想想当时宗教界发生了什么。
- start: 874.555
  end: 911.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One of the things that's emerging at this time is  the historical critical method, German higher criticism, and the trend of what comes to be called the demythologizing of Christianity.
  zh: 当时出现的一件事是历史批判方法，德国高等批判，以及后来被称为基督教去神话化的趋势。
- start: 911.278
  end: 926.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, there are scholars who are interpreting the New Testament, especially the Gospels, in ways that attempt to demythologize or, in essence, take all the miraculous out.
  zh: 换句话说，有学者在解释新约，特别是福音书时，试图去神话化或者本质上去除所有神迹。
- start: 928.427
  end: 939.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, on some level, the affirmation of this as a dogma in 1854, I mean, you could say, well, if this has been around since the second century, why now?
  zh: 所以，在某种程度上，1854年将这一点确立为教条，我的意思是，你可能会说，如果这种观念自二世纪就存在了，为什么是现在？
- start: 939.377
  end: 944.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why in 1854 pronounce it as a dogma that all Catholics must believe?
  zh: 为什么在1854年宣布它为所有天主教徒必须相信的教条？
- start: 944.501
  end: 950.406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because it's in response to this trend of taking the miraculous out of the Gospels.
  zh: 因为这是对从福音书中去除神迹这一趋势的回应。
- start: 950.43
  end: 953.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a way of saying, oh, you're going to try and take away my miracle?
  zh: 这是在说，哦，你们想要去除我的神迹吗？
- start: 953.171
  end: 954.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'll give you a miracle.
  zh: 我会给你们一个神迹。
- start: 954.232
  end: 956.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'll give you one that's not even in the Bible, right?
  zh: 我会给你们一个圣经里都没有的神迹，对吧？
- start: 956.112
  end: 959.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, that is kind of the response by Pius IX. Now, yes, question?
  zh: 所以，这就是庇护九世的某种回应。现在，是的，有问题吗？
- start: 967.415
  end: 972.518
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Yeah, well there's a couple ways to deal with that.
  zh: 是的，有几种方法可以处理这个问题。
- start: 972.518
  end: 1001.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The question was, you know, how does the church, or how has the church historically talked about the fact that there are  Well, there's pagan myths about virgin births, and some of them are hybrid, you know, deity and human and all this.
  zh: 问题是，你知道，教会是如何，或者历史上教会是如何谈论这样一个事实，即存在关于童贞女生子的异教神话，其中一些是混合的，你知道，神和人的结合等等。
- start: 1001.164
  end: 1006.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But we have, you know, throughout history, we have these stories of other virgin births.
  zh: 但是你知道，纵观历史，我们有这些其他童贞女生子的故事。
- start: 1007.028
  end: 1013.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I think for the most part, you know, the traditional answer would be to say, well, you know, those other ones weren't real.
  zh: 我认为在大多数情况下，你知道，传统的回答会是，嗯，你知道，那些其他的都不是真的。
- start: 1013.754
  end: 1014.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This one is.
  zh: 这一个是真的。
- start: 1015.175
  end: 1022.822
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that, you know, there's something hardwired into the, you know,  Why did the Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah?
  zh: 而且，你知道，这是根深蒂固的，你知道，为什么犹太人拒绝耶稣作为他们的弥赛亚？
- start: 1042.455
  end: 1046.557
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, I'm not sure why the Jews would reject the virgin birth.
  zh: 嗯，我不确定为什么犹太人会拒绝童贞女生子。
- start: 1046.658
  end: 1058.058
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's sort of like, if you're going to accept Jesus as your Messiah, then you would probably accept the virgin birth as part of the whole Jesus package.
  zh: 这有点像，如果你要接受耶稣作为你的弥赛亚，那么你可能会接受童贞女生子作为整个耶稣信仰包的一部分。
- start: 1058.058
  end: 1063.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you're going to reject Jesus as your Messiah, there's no reason to accept the virgin birth.
  zh: 如果你要拒绝耶稣作为你的弥赛亚，那就没有理由接受童贞女生子。
- start: 1063.04
  end: 1065.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There would be no point to it, so why would they?
  zh: 这样做没有意义，所以他们为什么要接受呢？
- start: 1076.124
  end: 1086.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There are those who argue that, and that's what I'm saying, is that this kind of dogmatic pronouncement is a response to that kind of argument.
  zh: 有人会这样争辩，这就是我要说的，这种教条式的宣告是对那种论点的回应。
- start: 1086.641
  end: 1094.386
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not only are we affirming the virgin birth of Jesus, we're going to take a step back and affirm the miraculous birth of Mary, too.
  zh: 我们不仅要肯定耶稣的童贞女生子，还要退一步肯定马利亚的奇迹诞生。
- start: 1094.607
  end: 1097.929
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that becomes the response.
  zh: 这就成了回应。
- start: 1097.929
  end: 1106.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I will say that in more recent times, the Roman Catholic Church has accepted the value of the historical critical method.
  zh: 现在，我要说的是，在最近的时代，罗马公教会已经接受了历史批判方法的价值。
- start: 1106.456
  end: 1112.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But back in this time, it dug in heels and saw that as a danger.
  zh: 但在那个时代，它固守立场，认为那是一种危险。
- start: 1112.7
  end: 1121.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: How does the Immaculate Conception then address passages in the Gospels where it talks about how Mary found favor with God?
  zh: 那么，无原罪怀孕如何解释福音书中谈到马利亚蒙神喜悦的段落呢？
- start: 1121.024
  end: 1129.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, the idea that she was without sin kind of implies that she can't really find favor if she was only kind of free or sane to be favored.
  zh: 你知道，她无罪的观念似乎暗示着如果她只是某种程度上自由或适合被喜悦，她就不能真正地蒙恩。
- start: 1129.849
  end: 1151.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Well, I don't know of any particular interpretations where that question is addressed, but I would assume it would have to do with the idea of just interpreting the word found not as  This is not what we would consider an infallible pronouncement, because that doesn't exist yet.
  zh: 嗯，我不知道有什么特定的解释来回答这个问题，但我假设这与解释「蒙恩」这个词有关。这不是我们所认为的无误宣告，因为那时还没有这个概念。
- start: 1151.097
  end: 1184.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There is a concept within the Catholic Church  Well, it's understood as papal infallibility, but papal infallibility is not the infallibility of the person per se, but the infallibility of the office.
  zh: 公教会内有一个概念，被理解为教宗无误性，但教宗无误性并不是指个人本身的无误性，而是职位的无误性。
- start: 1184.898
  end: 1194.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And there's a particular phrase that's used, ex cathedra, meaning from the chair, the bishop's chair.
  zh: 有一个特定的短语被使用，ex cathedra，意思是「从座位上」，指主教的座位。
- start: 1194.402
  end: 1206.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when the bishop of Rome speaks ex cathedra, from the chair,  Speaking on behalf of the whole Church, he is considered infallible.
  zh: 所以当罗马主教以ex cathedra的方式，从座位上代表整个教会发言时，他被认为是无误的。
- start: 1207.455
  end: 1212.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: However, a Pope has only done that once, ever.
  zh: 然而，教宗只做过一次这样的宣告。
- start: 1213.637
  end: 1217.779
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Unless you count the first time when this was created.
  zh: 除非你把这个概念创立的第一次也算上。
- start: 1218.579
  end: 1224.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But anyway, that comes up in 1870, so you see this is before that.
  zh: 但无论如何，这个概念出现在1870年，所以你看这是在那之前。
- start: 1226.408
  end: 1237.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's still considered a dogma, but it doesn't count as an infallible pronouncement in that technical sense.
  zh: 所以它仍被视为教条，但从技术上讲，它不算是无误宣告。
- start: 1237.532
  end: 1255.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Mary as sinless, it's interesting that the emphasis on her sinlessness is understood as  emphasizing the freedom of her will.
  zh: 所以马利亚无罪，有趣的是，对她无罪的强调被理解为强调她意志的自由。
- start: 1255.788
  end: 1269.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, think back to what we were talking about with Augustine, how if you understand original sin the way Augustine did, people who are born with original sin, their will is not totally free.
  zh: 换句话说，回想我们之前讨论奥古斯丁的内容，如果你像奥古斯丁那样理解原罪，那么生来就有原罪的人，他们的意志并不完全自由。
- start: 1270.531
  end: 1275.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary, however, having been born without original sin, her will is totally free.
  zh: 然而，马利亚生来就没有原罪，她的意志是完全自由的。
- start: 1275.432
  end: 1287.969
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when she says yes to God, when she says yes to the Incarnation, she is  She's completely free, and she's doing this completely of her own free will, more so than any of the rest of us ever could.
  zh: 所以当她对神说「是」，当她对道成肉身说「是」时，她是完全自由的，她完全是出于自己的自由意志这样做的，比我们任何人都更自由。
- start: 1287.969
  end: 1296.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But she's not considered a divine being in any sense, the way Jesus is.
  zh: 但她在任何意义上都不被认为是神圣的存在，不像耶稣那样。
- start: 1297.714
  end: 1302.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But there is a certain sense in which she's considered unique among humanity in that way.
  zh: 但在某种意义上，她被认为是人类中独一无二的。
- start: 1302.097
  end: 1307.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's the Immaculate Conception.
  zh: 这就是无原罪怀孕的概念。
- start: 1310.689
  end: 1321.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Along with this idea that Mary remained sinless throughout her life is the idea that she remained a virgin throughout her life even after the birth of Jesus.
  zh: 与马利亚终生无罪的观念相伴的是，她终生保持童贞，即使在耶稣诞生之后。
- start: 1322.234
  end: 1325.155
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is the concept of perpetual virginity.
  zh: 这就是永久童贞的概念。
- start: 1328.877
  end: 1335.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you go to a Catholic church, you might hear her referred to as Mary ever virgin.
  zh: 如果你去公教会的教堂，你可能会听到她被称为「永远童贞的马利亚」。
- start: 1335.839
  end: 1341.512
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is the idea that she remained physically a virgin  Even after the birth of Jesus.
  zh: 这是指她在身体上保持童贞，即使在耶稣诞生之后。
- start: 1341.512
  end: 1348.575
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, if you remember reading the Corona Evangelion, did you read that one?
  zh: 现在，如果你记得读过《福音冠冕》，你读过那个吗？
- start: 1348.575
  end: 1349.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Did I sign that?
  zh: 我有安排那个吗？
- start: 1350.516
  end: 1377.675
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, anyway, if you read it, there's a point, the point where Jesus is born seems almost docetic, because there's no pain in childbirth, and he emerges from Mary's womb as like, you know, light coming out of a  But think back to Genesis chapter 3. Why is there pain in childbirth?
  zh: 无论如何，如果你读过它，有一点，耶稣诞生的那一刻似乎近乎幻影说，因为没有分娩的痛苦，他从马利亚的子宫中出来就像光从某处射出。但回想创世记第3章。为什么分娩会有痛苦？
- start: 1377.675
  end: 1379.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because of the sin.
  zh: 因为罪。
- start: 1379.437
  end: 1382.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary has no sin, so no pain in childbirth.
  zh: 马利亚没有罪，所以分娩没有痛苦。
- start: 1382.859
  end: 1392.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Jesus emerges from her womb in a way that leaves her physically a virgin, even after the birth.
  zh: 耶稣从她的子宫中出来的方式使她在身体上仍然保持童贞，即使在分娩之后。
- start: 1395.143
  end: 1396.724
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so, you know, fair enough.
  zh: 好吧，你知道，这说得通。
- start: 1396.724
  end: 1405.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that brings up the question, which I'm sure you're thinking, and that is, what about the Gospel passages where it says Jesus has brothers and sisters?
  zh: 但这引出了一个问题，我相信你也在想，那就是，福音书中说耶稣有兄弟姐妹的段落怎么解释？
- start: 1405.726
  end: 1408.047
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Right, yeah.
  zh: 对，没错。
- start: 1408.047
  end: 1416.089
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, okay, there's a couple of traditional answers to that, and I'll give you them, and you decide what you want to believe, as always.
  zh: 好的，对此有几个传统的解答，我会告诉你们，然后你们像往常一样决定相信什么。
- start: 1417.01
  end: 1429.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the traditional answers to that question all pretty much assume  that whoever they are, they're not Mary's children, biologically.
  zh: 但对这个问题的传统解答基本上都假设，无论他们是谁，从生物学上讲，他们都不是马利亚的孩子。
- start: 1429.754
  end: 1442.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, for example, one answer is that they are other kids from the same generation as Jesus, from the extended family, who grew up basically in the same extended household.
  zh: 例如，一个解答是他们是与耶稣同代的其他孩子，来自大家庭，基本上在同一个大家庭中长大。
- start: 1442.537
  end: 1447.918
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it is true that in Greek you could use words like brothers and sisters to mean cousins.
  zh: 确实，在希腊语中，你可以用兄弟姐妹这样的词来表示表兄弟姐妹。
- start: 1448.258
  end: 1449.778
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So they could be Jesus' cousins.
  zh: 所以他们可能是耶稣的表兄弟姐妹。
- start: 1449.778
  end: 1453.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's one possibility.
  zh: 这是一种可能性。
- start: 1453.975
  end: 1461.081
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other possibility that seems to be more prevalent is that they are children of Joseph from a previous marriage.
  zh: 另一种似乎更普遍的可能性是，他们是约瑟前一段婚姻中的孩子。
- start: 1462.222
  end: 1466.105
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, now, you laugh, but look at the artwork.
  zh: 现在，你可能会笑，但看看艺术作品。
- start: 1466.625
  end: 1469.247
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Look at Michelangelo's holy family.
  zh: 看看米开朗基罗的圣家画。
- start: 1470.128
  end: 1476.012
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Fresh-faced Mary, bouncing baby Jesus, and old geezer Joseph.
  zh: 容光焕发的马利亚，活泼的婴儿耶稣，和老头子约瑟。
- start: 1476.533
  end: 1477.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 1477.354
  end: 1480.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why is Joseph always depicted so much older?
  zh: 为什么约瑟总是被描绘得年纪大很多？
- start: 1480.476
  end: 1482.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because he has been married before.
  zh: 因为他以前结过婚。
- start: 1483.282
  end: 1485.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary is not his first wife.
  zh: 马利亚不是他的第一任妻子。
- start: 1485.665
  end: 1493.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, if you track the artwork throughout the centuries, he seems to get older and older.
  zh: 事实上，如果你追踪几个世纪以来的艺术作品，他似乎变得越来越老。
- start: 1496.834
  end: 1503.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The answer to the question is that Jesus' brothers and sisters are his half-brothers and sisters.
  zh: 对这个问题的回答是，耶稣的兄弟姐妹是他的同父异母或同母异父的兄弟姐妹。
- start: 1503.42
  end: 1508.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This would include the authors of the letters of James and Jude in the New Testament.
  zh: 这包括新约中雅各书和犹大书的作者。
- start: 1510.393
  end: 1514.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, to be fair, again, go back to the cross in the Gospel of John.
  zh: 现在，公平地说，再回到约翰福音中的十字架场景。
- start: 1514.854
  end: 1524.817
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Jesus entrusts his mother to John, which suggests that he has no living brothers or sisters or father.
  zh: 耶稣将他的母亲托付给约翰，这表明他没有在世的兄弟姐妹或父亲。
- start: 1525.157
  end: 1533.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because if he had brothers or sisters or a father, there would be no question that Mary would be taken care of by them.
  zh: 因为如果他有兄弟姐妹或父亲，毫无疑问马利亚会由他们照顾。
- start: 1533.839
  end: 1535.039
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But they're not there.
  zh: 但他们不在那里。
- start: 1535.079
  end: 1537.12
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, or whatever that's worth.
  zh: 所以，不管这意味着什么。
- start: 1537.12
  end: 1548.415
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, obviously,  Eventually, Mary's perpetual virginity becomes an example for women to join a monastic life.
  zh: 现在，显然，最终，马利亚的永久童贞成为女性加入修道生活的榜样。
- start: 1548.415
  end: 1552.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So she becomes sort of the proto-nun.
  zh: 所以她成为了某种原型修女。
- start: 1550.355
  end: 1559.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in the Protoevangelion, she is dedicated to a life of lifelong virginity.
  zh: 在《原始福音》中，她献身于终身童贞的生活。
- start: 1559.277
  end: 1563.138
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, again, that's already there in the second century.
  zh: 所以，再次强调，这在二世纪就已经存在了。
- start: 1564.138
  end: 1573.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, the main reformers, Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin,  All had no problem with the perpetual virginity of Mary.
  zh: 事实上，主要的改革者，路德、慈运理和加尔文，都对马利亚的永久童贞没有异议。
- start: 1574.81
  end: 1576.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They all believed it.
  zh: 他们都相信这一点。
- start: 1577.212
  end: 1584.457
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, to be clear, though, her virginity is not required for her sinlessness, although some have seen it that way.
  zh: 不过要明确的是，她的童贞并不是她无罪的必要条件，尽管有些人是这样看的。
- start: 1584.457
  end: 1590.261
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, there's plenty, historically, who have wanted to connect sin with sexuality.
  zh: 你知道，历史上有很多人想把罪与性联系起来。
- start: 1590.261
  end: 1594.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, you know, to say that if she's going to be sinless, she must be celibate.
  zh: 所以，你知道，有人说如果她要无罪，她就必须保持独身。
- start: 1594.844
  end: 1596.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's not really technically true.
  zh: 从技术上讲，这并不真正正确。
- start: 1598.732
  end: 1607.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I told you earlier that, according to tradition, Mary did go with the Apostle John.
  zh: 现在，我之前告诉过你，根据传统，马利亚确实跟随使徒约翰。
- start: 1607.519
  end: 1613.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They went to Ephesus, where John sort of becomes the bishop of the region of Asia Minor.
  zh: 他们去了以弗所，在那里约翰成为了小亚细亚地区的主教。
- start: 1614.024
  end: 1618.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Mary lived out her days with John.
  zh: 马利亚与约翰一起度过了她的余生。
- start: 1619.488
  end: 1623.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, at some point, she dies, right?
  zh: 现在，在某个时候，她去世了，对吧？
- start: 1624.632
  end: 1629.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And there are varying stories about her death.
  zh: 关于她的死亡有不同的说法。
- start: 1630.186
  end: 1637.591
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Her death is referred to as her dormition.
  zh: 她的死亡被称为她的安眠。
- start: 1640.273
  end: 1645.816
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary's dormition is the point at which she dies.
  zh: 马利亚的安眠就是她去世的时刻。
- start: 1658.533
  end: 1668.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Most of the stories, she actually doesn't live very much longer after Jesus' Passion, a few years maybe.
  zh: 大多数故事中，她在耶稣受难后实际上没有活很久，可能只有几年。
- start: 1669.257
  end: 1676.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So she's not around anymore by the time John is writing the book of Revelation.
  zh: 所以当约翰写启示录的时候，她已经不在了。
- start: 1676.1
  end: 1684.363
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But notice that there's no tomb of Mary that you can visit anywhere.
  zh: 但请注意，你在任何地方都找不到可以参观的马利亚墓。
- start: 1684.363
  end: 1686.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There are no relics of Mary.
  zh: 没有马利亚的圣物。
- start: 1688.714
  end: 1689.474
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why is that?
  zh: 为什么会这样？
- start: 1689.474
  end: 1692.415
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, we'll get into that in a minute.
  zh: 好吧，我们稍后会讨论这个问题。
- start: 1692.515
  end: 1697.216
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the earliest church writers don't talk much about her death.
  zh: 但最早期的教会作家并没有多少谈论她的死亡。
- start: 1697.216
  end: 1703.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the earliest stories that we have of her death have a lot of layers of legendary material on them, right?
  zh: 而我们所拥有的关于她死亡的最早期故事都带有很多传奇色彩，对吧？
- start: 1703.978
  end: 1708.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some stories started to pop up that said she never died.
  zh: 一些故事开始出现，说她从未死过。
- start: 1709.579
  end: 1712.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember Enoch in the Old Testament, right?
  zh: 记得旧约中的以诺吗，对吧？
- start: 1712.54
  end: 1713.38
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He didn't die.
  zh: 他没有死。
- start: 1713.38
  end: 1717.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He was just sort of translated into heaven without dying.
  zh: 他只是被直接提到天上，没有经历死亡。
- start: 1717.631
  end: 1723.652
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, there were some stories that started to emerge in the early church that said this is what happened to Mary.
  zh: 因此，在早期教会中开始出现一些故事，说这就是发生在马利亚身上的事。
- start: 1725.053
  end: 1728.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And, ultimately, that's not going to be considered the right answer.
  zh: 最终，这并不被认为是正确的答案。
- start: 1728.693
  end: 1745.237
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary did, in fact, die, but the stories of her dormition, then, are written to emphasize that she did die, like the rest of us, but there are some aspects to her death that are not like the rest of us, right?
  zh: 马利亚确实去世了，但关于她安眠的故事是为了强调她确实像我们其他人一样死去，但她的死亡有一些方面与我们不同，对吧？
- start: 1746.056
  end: 1748.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, first of all, Mary is not like Enoch.
  zh: 首先，马利亚不像以诺。
- start: 1748.978
  end: 1750.139
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She's not like Enoch.
  zh: 她不像以诺。
- start: 1750.139
  end: 1753.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She actually did die.
  zh: 她确实死了。
- start: 1754.061
  end: 1768.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some people still want to hold on to the idea that she never died, and the Catholic Church often just remains silent on the issue, but there are official documents that say she did die.
  zh: 有些人仍然坚持认为她从未死过，公教会对这个问题常常保持沉默，但有官方文件说她确实死了。
- start: 1768.549
  end: 1772.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so, the point is this.
  zh: 好的，所以重点是这样的。
- start: 1775.339
  end: 1778.881
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Sin leads to corruptibility.
  zh: 罪导致可朽坏性。
- start: 1779.722
  end: 1785.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when we die, our bodies are corruptible because we're sinners.
  zh: 所以当我们死的时候，我们的身体是可朽坏的，因为我们是罪人。
- start: 1785.446
  end: 1786.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Our bodies decay.
  zh: 我们的身体会腐烂。
- start: 1786.426
  end: 1790.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now this is, again, in the thinking of the early church.
  zh: 这再次是早期教会的思想。
- start: 1790.769
  end: 1794.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Our bodies decay because of our sin.
  zh: 我们的身体腐烂是因为我们的罪。
- start: 1795.132
  end: 1797.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No sin, no corruption.
  zh: 没有罪，就没有腐烂。
- start: 1798.434
  end: 1801.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So therefore Mary's body cannot decay.
  zh: 因此，马利亚的身体不能腐烂。
- start: 1802.438
  end: 1809.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And again, some would go so far as to say she can't even die because of her sinlessness, but the Church doesn't go that far.
  zh: 再次强调，有些人甚至会说因为她无罪所以不能死，但教会并没有走得那么远。
- start: 1809.042
  end: 1813.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some even question whether she could even get old, because if there's no corruption, can she age?
  zh: 有些人甚至质疑她是否会变老，因为如果没有腐败，她能衰老吗？
- start: 1813.284
  end: 1818.587
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, the Church doesn't go that far.
  zh: 但再次强调，教会并没有走得那么远。
- start: 1818.587
  end: 1824.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But Mary's body, remember, Mary's body is the new ark, it's the new tabernacle.
  zh: 但请记住，马利亚的身体是新的约柜，是新的圣幕。
- start: 1824.45
  end: 1829.312
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It held Jesus' body within itself.
  zh: 它曾容纳耶稣的身体。
- start: 1830.133
  end: 1844.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, at her death,  Because she cannot decay at her death, the belief is that her body was translated into heaven, like Jesus, at his ascension.
  zh: 所以，在她死亡时，因为她在死亡时不能腐烂，人们相信她的身体被提升到天上，就像耶稣在他升天时一样。
- start: 1845.486
  end: 1855.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But this is not an ascension, because ascension assumes you ascend.
  zh: 但这不是升天，因为升天假定你自己上升。
- start: 1855.432
  end: 1861.703
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, when Jesus ascends,  Jesus ascends.
  zh: 换句话说，当耶稣升天时，耶稣是自己升天的。
- start: 1861.703
  end: 1865.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's divine, so he has the power to ascend himself.
  zh: 他是神圣的，所以他有能力自己升天。
- start: 1866.827
  end: 1867.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary doesn't have that power.
  zh: 马利亚没有那种能力。
- start: 1867.928
  end: 1869.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She's not divine.
  zh: 她不是神圣的。
- start: 1869.049
  end: 1871.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So she can't ascend herself.
  zh: 所以她不能自己升天。
- start: 1871.611
  end: 1873.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She doesn't ascend.
  zh: 她不是升天。
- start: 1873.653
  end: 1875.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She is assumed.
  zh: 她是被提升的。
- start: 1877.015
  end: 1881.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, Mary being assumed into heaven is the passive version.
  zh: 所以，马利亚被提升到天上是被动的版本。
- start: 1881.999
  end: 1883.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She's brought into heaven.
  zh: 她被带到天上。
- start: 1883.54
  end: 1886.082
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so this is called her Assumption.
  zh: 这就是所谓的她的升天。
- start: 1888.643
  end: 1897.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the documents that describe her death also describe her assumption, body and soul, into heaven.
  zh: 所以描述她死亡的文献也描述了她身体和灵魂被提升到天上。
- start: 1898.11
  end: 1910.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that she is raised, it's passive, she doesn't raise herself, but she is transitioned into heaven, body and soul.
  zh: 所以她被提升，这是被动的，她不是自己升天，而是被转移到天上，包括身体和灵魂。
- start: 1911.461
  end: 1917.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So like Jesus, her humanity, her body, is in heaven also.
  zh: 所以像耶稣一样，她的人性，她的身体，也在天上。
- start: 1918.936
  end: 1924.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, there are several versions of the story of Mary's Dormition and Assumption.
  zh: 现在，关于马利亚的安眠和升天有几个版本的故事。
- start: 1924.64
  end: 1931.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I'm going to give you kind of a synopsis of the general order of events.
  zh: 我将给你们一个事件大致顺序的概要。
- start: 1931.546
  end: 1933.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're going to read one version of it.
  zh: 你们将读到其中的一个版本。
- start: 1936.049
  end: 1939.752
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The earliest stories of Mary's death go something like this.
  zh: 最早关于马利亚死亡的故事大致是这样的。
- start: 1939.792
  end: 1940.713
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So just go with this.
  zh: 所以就按这个来。
- start: 1940.713
  end: 1943.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You don't need to write this all down unless you want to.
  zh: 除非你想记下来，否则你不需要把这些都写下来。
- start: 1943.855
  end: 1945.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it basically goes like this.
  zh: 但基本上是这样的。
- start: 1947.842
  end: 1951.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary has become the leader of a community of celibate women.
  zh: 马利亚成为了一个独身女性团体的领袖。
- start: 1951.564
  end: 1959.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in other words, she's become a nun, a monastic, she's sort of like an abbess of a community of celibate women.
  zh: 换句话说，她成为了一个修女，一个修道者，她就像是一个独身女性团体的女修道院院长。
- start: 1959.087
  end: 1967.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And by the way, after she dies, her successor is Mary Magdalene.
  zh: 顺便说一下，在她死后，她的继任者是抹大拉的马利亚。
- start: 1967.491
  end: 1974.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, she's become the leader of this community of celibate women, and she's given the heads up that her death is near.
  zh: 所以，她成为了这个独身女性团体的领袖，并且她被告知她的死期将近。
- start: 1974.073
  end: 1975.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: She's going to be dying soon.
  zh: 她很快就要去世了。
- start: 1976.6
  end: 1985.484
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is somewhere around 35 or 36 CE, so again, only a couple of years after Jesus.
  zh: 这大约是在公元35或36年，所以再次强调，只是在耶稣之后几年。
- start: 1985.985
  end: 1986.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When she dies...
  zh: 当她去世时...
- start: 1986.805
  end: 1995.17
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, again, I didn't make this up, so don't kill the messenger for the anti-Semitism that's in here, but this is how the story goes.
  zh: 现在，再次强调，这不是我编的，所以不要因为这里面的反犹太主义而责怪传信的人，但故事就是这样的。
- start: 1995.17
  end: 2001.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When she dies, a mob of angry Jews plot to steal her body and desecrate it and burn it.
  zh: 当她去世时，一群愤怒的犹太人密谋偷走她的尸体并亵渎和焚烧它。
- start: 2004.106
  end: 2020.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So she dies, and the apostles, who remember have gone to all ends of the earth spreading the gospel, the apostles are all miraculously transported to her bedside right before her death, from all over the world, so she is able to say goodbye to them.
  zh: 所以她去世了，而使徒们，记得他们已经到世界各地传播福音，这些使徒们在她临终前奇迹般地从世界各地被带到她的床边，所以她能够向他们告别。
- start: 2021.431
  end: 2027.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When she dies, Jesus arrives,  To transport her soul into heaven.
  zh: 当她去世时，耶稣到来，将她的灵魂带到天上。
- start: 2028.033
  end: 2030.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So her soul goes to heaven first.
  zh: 所以她的灵魂先上天。
- start: 2030.474
  end: 2045.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fact, there's a great mosaic in one of the churches in Rome, where it shows her body laying out dead, and there's Jesus holding the tiny version of her, which is her soul, just before he takes it into heaven.
  zh: 事实上，在罗马的一个教堂里有一幅很棒的马赛克，它展示了她的身体躺在那里已经死去，耶稣抱着她的小版本，也就是她的灵魂，就在他把它带到天上之前。
- start: 2046.262
  end: 2049.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Jesus arrives to transport her soul into heaven.
  zh: 所以耶稣到来将她的灵魂带到天上。
- start: 2050.029
  end: 2056.052
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Her body remains on earth where it emits miraculous light and sweet odors.
  zh: 她的身体留在地上，发出奇迹般的光和甜美的气味。
- start: 2057.493
  end: 2063.176
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Garments from heaven float down and her body is wrapped in these garments from heaven.
  zh: 天上的衣服飘落下来，她的身体被这些来自天上的衣服包裹。
- start: 2063.877
  end: 2073.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And she is transported along on her funeral procession when the mob of angry Jews shows up and tries to take her body.
  zh: 当她的葬礼队伍行进时，那群愤怒的犹太人出现并试图夺走她的身体。
- start: 2073.743
  end: 2085.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And one of them grabs the stretcher that she's on and as soon as he touches it,  His hands shrivel up, dry up and fall off, and stick to the stretcher.
  zh: 其中一个人抓住她躺着的担架，一碰到它，他的手就萎缩、干枯、脱落，粘在担架上。
- start: 2086.655
  end: 2092.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, what does this remind you of?
  zh: 现在，这让你想起了什么？
- start: 2092.798
  end: 2104.724
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Exactly, 2 Samuel chapter 6. The guy who, very innocently, because the thing is tipping, tries to, you know, right it and touches the thing that's carrying the ark, right?
  zh: 没错，撒母耳记下第6章。那个人很无辜，因为东西在倾斜，他试图扶正它，碰到了抬约柜的东西，对吧？
- start: 2104.724
  end: 2105.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what does he do?
  zh: 他做了什么？
- start: 2105.244
  end: 2106.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He drops dead or something like that.
  zh: 他当场死亡或类似的事情。
- start: 2106.945
  end: 2109.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again,  clear parallel.
  zh: 但再次强调，这是明显的对应。
- start: 2109.357
  end: 2109.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 2109.597
  end: 2111.437
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because Mary is the new ark.
  zh: 因为马利亚是新的约柜。
- start: 2111.958
  end: 2113.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So she's the ark.
  zh: 所以她就是约柜。
- start: 2114.599
  end: 2125.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the guy's hands fall off, the rest of the mob of angry Jews is blinded, they all call out to the apostles for help and healing, they are healed, they all convert to Christianity.
  zh: 所以，那个人的手掉了下来，其余愤怒的犹太人群都变瞎了，他们都向使徒们呼求帮助和医治，他们被治愈了，他们都皈依了基督教。
- start: 2126.206
  end: 2127.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there's that happy ending.
  zh: 所以有了这个圆满的结局。
- start: 2129.247
  end: 2137.191
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary's body is placed in a tomb, but, remember, it can't stay there because there can't be a tomb of Mary anywhere.
  zh: 马利亚的身体被放入墓中，但请记住，它不能留在那里，因为任何地方都不可能有马利亚的墓。
- start: 2138.61
  end: 2140.551
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the body would be interrupted.
  zh: 因为身体会被打断。
- start: 2140.591
  end: 2145.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So after being placed in the tomb, Jesus returns with her soul from heaven.
  zh: 所以在被放入墓中后，耶稣带着她的灵魂从天上回来。
- start: 2145.853
  end: 2150.355
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Her body and soul are reunited and taken up into heaven with Jesus.
  zh: 她的身体和灵魂重新结合，与耶稣一起被提升到天上。
- start: 2151.356
  end: 2155.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's the synopsis of how these stories tend to go.
  zh: 这就是这些故事通常的概要。
- start: 2155.617
  end: 2156.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Did you get the idea?
  zh: 你们明白了吗？
- start: 2157.618
  end: 2164.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that is the Dormition and the Assumption of Mary.
  zh: 这就是马利亚的安眠和升天。
- start: 2164.021
  end: 2170.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So notice, Mary is not only the first Christian,  But she's the first to experience the resurrection after Christ.
  zh: 所以注意，马利亚不仅是第一个基督徒，而且是基督之后第一个经历复活的人。
- start: 2171.595
  end: 2176.978
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For the rest of us, we wait for the return of Christ to experience the resurrection of the body.
  zh: 对我们其他人来说，我们要等待基督的再来才能经历身体的复活。
- start: 2177.758
  end: 2181.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And at that point our spirits are reunited with our bodies, whatever that means.
  zh: 到那时，我们的灵魂将与我们的身体重新结合，不管这意味着什么。
- start: 2181.64
  end: 2186.002
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But Mary's body and spirit are already united in heaven.
  zh: 但马利亚的身体和灵魂已经在天上结合了。
- start: 2186.043
  end: 2191.305
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so she has also experienced the resurrection.
  zh: 所以她也经历了复活。
- start: 2192.686
  end: 2227.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now,  This was declared a dogma of the Church in 1950. So again, the idea has been there forever, but it wasn't made an official dogma of the Church until 1950. And in 1950, Pius XII used the official ex cathedra pronouncement to declare  The Assumption of Mary to be an official dogma of the Church.
  zh: 现在，这在1950年被宣布为教会的教条。所以再次强调，这个想法一直存在，但直到1950年才成为教会的正式教条。1950年，庇护十二世使用正式的ex cathedra宣告，宣布马利亚升天为教会的正式教条。
- start: 2227.29
  end: 2231.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Feast of the Assumption of Mary is August 15th.
  zh: 马利亚升天节是8月15日。
- start: 2232.995
  end: 2245.006
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's based on a prior Feast of Mary that goes back at least to the 5th century, but it's been celebrated on August 15th since at least the 6th century.
  zh: 它基于一个至少可以追溯到5世纪的早期马利亚节日，但至少从6世纪开始就在8月15日庆祝。
- start: 2245.006
  end: 2259.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, not like it was invented in 1950.  But the idea is that it's been around forever, but it becomes only official in 1950. So, again, notice this papal infallibility thing.
  zh: 所以再次强调，这不是1950年发明的。但这个想法一直存在，只是在1950年才正式确立。所以，再次注意这个教宗无误性的事情。
- start: 2259.187
  end: 2263.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The idea of the ex cathedra pronouncement has only been used the one time, ever.
  zh: ex cathedra宣告的概念只被使用过一次，从未有过第二次。
- start: 2263.989
  end: 2270.031
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Unless you count 1870 when it was created, then it would be two.
  zh: 除非你把1870年它被创立的那次也算上，那就是两次。
- start: 2270.031
  end: 2274.052
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But apart from that, it's only been used the one time.
  zh: 但除此之外，它只被使用过一次。
- start: 2275.492
  end: 2276.373
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 2276.373
  end: 2277.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yes, questions?
  zh: 是的，有问题吗？
- start: 2277.785
  end: 2293.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Real quickly, what would you say about the documents that say that Mary had to become a male to go into heaven as well?
  zh: 简单说一下，你对那些说马利亚必须变成男性才能进入天堂的文献有什么看法？
- start: 2293.302
  end: 2297.746
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I know what the church would say, it would say it was heresy, but...
  zh: 我知道教会会怎么说，它会说这是异端，但是...
- start: 2298.311
  end: 2337.145
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If I understand that right, it's not saying she had to become a male to be assumed into heaven, but that upon entering heaven, she would be like  I mean, I see that as very similar to the monastic idea that living the monastic life is like living the life of an angel, because it's asexual in a sense.
  zh: 如果我理解得没错，这并不是说她必须变成男性才能被提升到天堂，而是说在进入天堂时，她会变得像...我的意思是，我认为这与修道院的观念很相似，即过修道生活就像过天使的生活，因为在某种意义上它是无性的。
- start: 2337.145
  end: 2346.473
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So she transcends her sexuality, so if you are likely to think that females represent the weaker sex, she has transcended that and overcome that.
  zh: 所以她超越了她的性别，如果你倾向于认为女性代表弱势性别，她已经超越并克服了这一点。
- start: 2346.473
  end: 2351.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But again, that's the Gospel of Thomas, it's not like it's... I was just wondering what your...
  zh: 但再次强调，那是托马斯福音，不是说它...我只是想知道你的...
- start: 2354.594
  end: 2364.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Last thing I wanted to touch on is the Rosary.
  zh: 我想谈的最后一件事是玫瑰经。
- start: 2364.217
  end: 2366.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A lot of people wonder about that.
  zh: 很多人对此感到疑惑。
- start: 2366.397
  end: 2370.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'll talk about that for a few minutes and then we'll be done.
  zh: 我会谈几分钟，然后我们就结束。
- start: 2370.598
  end: 2377.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Any questions about what we've talked about so far with regard to Mary, though?
  zh: 不过，关于我们到目前为止讨论的有关马利亚的内容，有什么问题吗？
- start: 2377.22
  end: 2378.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Very quickly, the Rosary.
  zh: 简单说一下玫瑰经。
- start: 2378.58
  end: 2393.619
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Many religions have used prayer beads  Throughout the ages, beads are a reminder of things to pray for, or a reminder to pray in the first place.
  zh: 许多宗教都使用过祈祷珠。历代以来，珠子是提醒人们祈祷的事物，或者首先提醒人们要祈祷。
- start: 2394.259
  end: 2403.403
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At some point in the Middle Ages, people began to use strings of beads to count their prayers.
  zh: 在中世纪的某个时候，人们开始使用一串串珠子来计算他们的祈祷次数。
- start: 2404.204
  end: 2414.962
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And really what was going on here is that the monks, some of the monks, were  using a devotional practice of reciting the Psalms.
  zh: 实际上这里发生的是，修士们，一些修士，在使用诵读诗篇的敬拜方式。
- start: 2415.982
  end: 2423.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so there are 150 Psalms, and ideally what you did was you memorized them, and you recited them all.
  zh: 有150篇诗篇，理想情况下你要做的是记住它们，然后全部背诵出来。
- start: 2423.985
  end: 2433.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if you couldn't memorize all 150 Psalms, a substitute for that would be to simply say the Lord's Prayer 150 times.
  zh: 但如果你不能记住所有150篇诗篇，一个替代方法就是简单地说150遍主祷文。
- start: 2433.188
  end: 2437.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you could lose count, right?
  zh: 但你可能会数不清，对吧？
- start: 2437.349
  end: 2438.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what do you do?
  zh: 那你怎么办？
- start: 2438.269
  end: 2442.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You tie 150 knots  In a rope.
  zh: 你在绳子上打150个结。
- start: 2442.392
  end: 2448.654
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the rope with the 150 knots was called a paternoster.
  zh: 这条有150个结的绳子被称为paternoster。
- start: 2453.256
  end: 2458.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: From our father in Latin, paternoster, our father.
  zh: 来自拉丁语中的「我们的父」，paternoster，我们的父。
- start: 2458.778
  end: 2471.608
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So in other words, the string of beads or rope with knots was simply called  Our Fathers, because you're going to say 150 Our Fathers.
  zh: 换句话说，这串珠子或打结的绳子被简单地称为「我们的父」，因为你要说150遍「我们的父」。
- start: 2472.848
  end: 2487.912
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Somewhere in the late Middle Ages, a collection of prayers came into use, and the collection of prayers was referred to as a little rose garden, like a little rose garden of prayers, and each prayer was a flower or a rose.
  zh: 在中世纪晚期的某个时候，一系列祷告开始被使用，这些祷告被称为小玫瑰园，就像一个祷告的小玫瑰园，每个祷告都是一朵花或一朵玫瑰。
- start: 2488.632
  end: 2496.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So a little rose garden, or rosarism in Latin, is where we get our word rosary.
  zh: 所以小玫瑰园，或拉丁语中的rosarism，就是我们的「玫瑰经」这个词的来源。
- start: 2496.971
  end: 2508.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the rosary is a string of beads that is meant to remind one or help one count prayers.
  zh: 所以玫瑰经是一串珠子，用来提醒人或帮助人计数祷告。
- start: 2508.793
  end: 2515.074
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And there is a tradition that the rose itself, as a flower, is Mary's flower, is a symbol for Mary.
  zh: 有一个传统认为玫瑰本身，作为一种花，是马利亚的花，是马利亚的象征。
- start: 2515.514
  end: 2531.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so what you have with a rosary is a circular string of beads marked off in bunches of ten beads, called decades,  And it became a devotional aid to help one remember the rose garden of prayers.
  zh: 所以玫瑰经是一串圆形的珠子，每十颗珠子为一组，称为一端，它成为一种敬拜的辅助工具，帮助人记住祷告的玫瑰园。
- start: 2532.832
  end: 2535.914
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, what if you don't want to memorize all the prayers?
  zh: 但是再次强调，如果你不想记住所有的祷告怎么办？
- start: 2538.116
  end: 2545.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Just like with the Pater Noster, the Rosarium could be used to just say a few prayers over and over again.
  zh: 就像主祷文一样，玫瑰经可以用来反复诵念几个祷告。
- start: 2546.543
  end: 2552.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the prayer that came to be most associated with the Rosary is the Hail Mary.
  zh: 而与玫瑰经最相关的祷告是圣母经。
- start: 2555.243
  end: 2559.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Or, the Ave Maria in Latin.
  zh: 或者，拉丁语中的Ave Maria。
- start: 2559.666
  end: 2562.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I say this because light bulbs go off over people's heads.
  zh: 我说这个是因为人们会恍然大悟。
- start: 2562.308
  end: 2566.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A lot of people don't realize that Ave Maria is Hail Mary.
  zh: 很多人没有意识到Ave Maria就是圣母经。
- start: 2566.731
  end: 2574.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when you hear the Ave Maria song, the person is simply singing the Latin words to the Hail Mary prayer.
  zh: 所以当你听到Ave Maria这首歌时，歌手只是在用拉丁语唱圣母经的祷词。
- start: 2576.278
  end: 2588.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Hail Mary is a prayer based on  Scripture is the enunciation from Luke, Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.
  zh: 圣母经是一个基于圣经的祷告，是路加福音中的宣告，「万福马利亚，你充满圣宠，主与你同在。」
- start: 2589.369
  end: 2599.632
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then, skip a page, when Mary meets Elizabeth, blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of your womb, and let's name him Jesus.
  zh: 然后，翻到下一页，当马利亚遇见伊丽莎白时，「你在妇女中是蒙祝福的，你腹中的果实也是蒙祝福的，让我们称他为耶稣。」
- start: 2599.632
  end: 2605.053
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that part of the prayer comes right out of the Gospel.
  zh: 所以祷告的这部分直接来自福音书。
- start: 2605.575
  end: 2612.736
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then the second part of the prayer is a petition, or asking Mary to pray for, to intercede.
  zh: 然后祷告的第二部分是请愿，或者说请求马利亚代祷，代求。
- start: 2614.417
  end: 2616.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Pray for us sinners now at the hour of our death.
  zh: 「为我们罪人祈祷，现在和我们临终的时候。」
- start: 2620.838
  end: 2625.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When I say Hail Mary, you should definitely imagine in your mind that scene from The Godfather, right?
  zh: 当我说圣母经时，你肯定应该在脑海中想象《教父》中的那个场景，对吧？
- start: 2625.279
  end: 2627.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Where Fredo finally gets whacked.
  zh: 弗雷多最终被杀的那个场景。
- start: 2628.819
  end: 2636.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because he says, it's very obnoxious, he says Hail Mary,  Pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death.
  zh: 因为他说，这很令人讨厌，他说「圣母经，现在和我们临终的时候，为我们罪人祈祷。」
- start: 2636.493
  end: 2637.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Bang.
  zh: 砰。
- start: 2637.873
  end: 2639.774
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You haven't seen The Godfather?
  zh: 你没看过《教父》吗？
- start: 2639.774
  end: 2642.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It was just playing all weekend.
  zh: 整个周末都在播放。
- start: 2642.976
  end: 2648.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, he's the older brother who messes up a lot.
  zh: 嗯，他是那个经常搞砸事情的哥哥。
- start: 2648.5
  end: 2651.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's a lot of great religious imagery in The Godfather.
  zh: 《教父》中有很多很棒的宗教意象。
- start: 2652.202
  end: 2669.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's that whole scene where Michael is  The Godfather, for his nephew who's being baptized, and there's this great juxtaposition where they're asking him the question of baptism, do you renounce Satan?
  zh: 有一整个场景，迈克尔是他正在受洗的侄子的教父，有一个很棒的并置，他们问他洗礼的问题，「你是否弃绝撒但？」
- start: 2669.776
  end: 2672.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And he says yes, and at the same moment he's having people killed.
  zh: 他说是的，而在同一时刻他正在让人杀人。
- start: 2672.798
  end: 2696.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Okay, so basically,  The idea of the rosary with the Hail Mary prayer seems to come into use as an alternative to this memorization of the Psalms or memorization of another group of prayers.
  zh: 好的，所以基本上，带有圣母经祷告的玫瑰经似乎是作为记诵诗篇或记诵另一组祷告的替代方式而开始使用的。
- start: 2696.325
  end: 2702.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so what you do is there are usually five groups of ten beads.
  zh: 所以你要做的是，通常有五组十颗珠子。
- start: 2702.889
  end: 2712.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So you say the Hail Mary prayer ten times on each one of the beads, and then there's an in-between prayer like the Lord's Prayer, and you go around the circle.
  zh: 所以你在每颗珠子上说十遍圣母经，然后中间有一个祷告，比如主祷文，然后你绕圈继续。
- start: 2712.656
  end: 2713.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's about it.
  zh: 大概就是这样。
- start: 2713.598
  end: 2717.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And the idea is actually to meditate on the mysteries of Christ.
  zh: 实际上，这个想法是为了默想基督的奥秘。
- start: 2717.302
  end: 2724.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, like, while you're doing a decade of ten beads, you're theoretically meditating on, let's say, the incarnation, the birth of Christ.
  zh: 所以，比如说，当你做一端十颗珠子的时候，理论上你在默想，比如说，道成肉身，基督的诞生。
- start: 2724.731
  end: 2731.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You have to be able to kind of multitask to do that, but that's the idea.
  zh: 你必须能够某种程度上同时处理多项任务才能做到这一点，但这就是这个想法。
- start: 2732.213
  end: 2742.319
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Traditionally, the Rosary is associated with St. Dominic, as though sometimes it's said that he invented it, but there's no real evidence of that.
  zh: 传统上，玫瑰经与圣多明我有关，有时甚至说是他发明的，但没有真正的证据证明这一点。
- start: 2742.98
  end: 2745.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But he did encourage its use.
  zh: 但他确实鼓励使用它。
- start: 2746.282
  end: 2750.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But really, the Rosary was already in use by the end of the first millennium.
  zh: 但实际上，到第一个千年结束时，玫瑰经已经在使用了。
- start: 2751.534
  end: 2777.288
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: St. Dominic came along, encouraged people to pray the rosary, preached praying the rosary as a way of calling heretics and other fallen away Christians back to Christ, and it actually became a kind of a wartime prayer aid.
  zh: 圣多明我出现后，鼓励人们诵念玫瑰经，宣讲诵念玫瑰经是召唤异端和其他背离基督的基督徒回归基督的一种方式，它实际上成为了一种战时祷告的辅助工具。
- start: 2778.024
  end: 2785.61
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: during the Crusades and during the Reformation as well.
  zh: 在十字军东征期间和宗教改革期间也是如此。
- start: 2785.61
  end: 2792.015
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In 1572, a feast was declared for the Holy Rosary.
  zh: 1572年，教会宣布设立圣玫瑰经节。
- start: 2792.015
  end: 2796.258
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The feast of the Holy Rosary was established for October 7th.
  zh: 圣玫瑰经节定在10月7日。
- start: 2800.201
  end: 2802.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So anyway, that's the Rosary.
  zh: 总之，这就是玫瑰经。
- start: 2802.103
  end: 2805.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But actually, the Rosary is not just for Catholics.
  zh: 但实际上，玫瑰经不仅仅是为天主教徒准备的。
- start: 2805.165
  end: 2819.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, there are other systems  For praying on a rosary, so a person could use a rosary to pray a prayer that one is not comfortable with the Hail Mary prayer, there are other ways to use it that are not specifically Catholic.
  zh: 我的意思是，还有其他使用玫瑰经祈祷的系统，所以一个人可以用玫瑰经来祈祷一个不习惯圣母经的祷告，有其他不特定于天主教的使用方式。
- start: 2820.116
  end: 2822.737
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But anyway, so that's all I need to say about that.
  zh: 但无论如何，这就是我需要说的全部内容。
- start: 2822.737
  end: 2827.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A lot of people are curious about it.
  zh: 很多人对此感到好奇。
- start: 2829.179
  end: 2841.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I guess I'll just wrap up by saying that, I know I already said this, but the role of Mary in the church  is the same as her role in the story of the wedding of Cana.
  zh: 我想我就以这句话作为总结吧，我知道我已经说过了，但马利亚在教会中的角色与她在迦拿婚宴故事中的角色是一样的。
- start: 2841.489
  end: 2851.632
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, Mary also is not an end in herself, but she is the one who points to her son and says, do whatever he says.
  zh: 换句话说，马利亚本身也不是目的，但她是指向她儿子并说「他告诉你们什么，你们就做什么」的那个人。
- start: 2851.632
  end: 2856.194
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, so let's see if there are questions or discussion at this point.
  zh: 好的，让我们看看现在是否有问题或讨论。
- start: 2866.196
  end: 2866.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: None?
  zh: 没有吗？
- start: 2866.857
  end: 2868.983
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, seeing none, let's shut it down.
  zh: 好的，既然没有，那我们就结束吧。
