- start: 0.717
  end: 16.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, so welcome back to History 1, and we're in the Middle Ages, and we're going to start tonight with the concept of sainthood, and veneration of saints, and what that's all about.
  zh: 好的，欢迎回到历史课程一，我们正在学习中世纪，今晚我们将从圣人的概念、对圣人的敬奉以及相关内容开始。
- start: 17.906
  end: 30.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because you know that there are several traditions within Christianity that have as exemplars of the faith these people that we call saints.
  zh: 因为你知道，基督教内有几个传统，将我们称为圣人的这些人视为信仰的楷模。
- start: 30.562
  end: 40.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And even among Protestants, it's become part of casual conversation when you say, Happy St. Valentine's Day or something like that.
  zh: 即使在新教徒中，当你说「圣瓦伦丁节快乐」之类的话时，这也已成为日常对话的一部分。
- start: 40.085
  end: 47.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So these are people who are sort of held up as models, examples to follow.
  zh: 所以这些人被视为榜样，是值得效法的典范。
- start: 48.688
  end: 54.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But to talk about the saints, we really need to go all the way back to the early church, to the time of the martyrs.
  zh: 但要谈论圣人，我们真的需要追溯到早期教会，回到殉道者的时代。
- start: 54.37
  end: 59.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now you may remember that we talked about this a little bit when we were talking about the martyrs.
  zh: 你可能还记得，我们在讨论殉道者时曾简单提到过这个话题。
- start: 60.995
  end: 80.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you also have to remember that in the early church, and really throughout probably most of the church's history, baptism was considered a sacrament that washed away original sin and any sins committed up until the baptism.
  zh: 你还要记住，在早期教会，实际上可能在教会历史的大部分时期，洗礼被认为是一种圣事，可以洗去原罪和洗礼前所犯的任何罪。
- start: 80.746
  end: 89.667
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So this is why I always say baptism was a clean slate, but not a free ride, because it was not thought to wash away future sins.
  zh: 这就是为什么我总是说洗礼是一个全新的开始，但不是一张免费通行证，因为它并不被认为能洗去未来的罪。
- start: 89.667
  end: 91.968
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: sins committed after the baptism.
  zh: 洗礼之后所犯的罪。
- start: 91.968
  end: 103.993
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, in the world of Reformed theology, you will often hear something like this, that baptism washes away all of a person's sins past, present, and future.
  zh: 在改革宗神学中，你经常会听到类似这样的说法，洗礼洗去一个人过去、现在和未来的所有罪。
- start: 104.133
  end: 106.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that was not the thinking in the early church.
  zh: 但这并不是早期教会的想法。
- start: 106.354
  end: 110.976
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the early church, baptism washed away pre-baptismal sin.
  zh: 在早期教会，洗礼只洗去洗礼前的罪。
- start: 110.976
  end: 115.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, original sin that you're born with,  And then any sins you committed up until the time of baptism.
  zh: 所以，你与生俱来的原罪，以及你在洗礼之前所犯的任何罪。
- start: 115.185
  end: 122.289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, this is why many people, especially men in the Roman Empire, postponed their baptism, right?
  zh: 我的意思是，这就是为什么许多人，尤其是罗马帝国的男性，推迟他们的洗礼，对吧？
- start: 122.289
  end: 133.194
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that they could sow their wild oats, or have a political career, or whatever it is they felt they needed to do, and they didn't want to be accountable to the ethical standards of the Church, right?
  zh: 这样他们就可以放纵一下，或者从政，或者做他们觉得需要做的任何事，而且他们不想对教会的道德标准负责，对吧？
- start: 133.194
  end: 135.755
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So they postponed their baptism.
  zh: 所以他们推迟了洗礼。
- start: 135.755
  end: 146.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All of that implies that post-baptismal sin, sins you commit after your baptism,  can, in effect, undo your baptism.
  zh: 这一切都暗示着洗礼后的罪，即你在洗礼后所犯的罪，实际上可以使你的洗礼失效。
- start: 146.353
  end: 153.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And early church documents talk about the baptism as the seal, S-T-A-L. It seals one for God.
  zh: 早期教会文献将洗礼称为印记。它为神封印一个人。
- start: 153.86
  end: 165.89
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fact, you see this in the book of Revelation, even, where there's the mark of the beast, you can be marked for the beast, or you can be sealed for God, and those are the two sort of opposites.
  zh: 事实上，你甚至在「启示录」中看到这一点，那里有兽的印记，你可以被兽标记，或者你可以被神封印，这是两种对立的情况。
- start: 165.89
  end: 170.994
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To be sealed for God, the seal is a reference to baptism.
  zh: 被神封印，这个印记指的是洗礼。
- start: 171.035
  end: 172.716
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the seal can be broken.
  zh: 但这个印记可以被破坏。
- start: 172.716
  end: 174.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The seal can be undone.
  zh: 这个印记可以被解除。
- start: 177.118
  end: 186.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so we have this idea that if you continue to sin after your baptism, you can undo your baptism to the point where you actually can lose your salvation.
  zh: 所以我们有这样的观念，如果你在洗礼后继续犯罪，你可以使你的洗礼失效，以至于你实际上可能失去救恩。
- start: 186.924
  end: 205.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now again, in the Protestant world, you might be used to a more sort of Calvinistic outlook that says, you know, sort of once saved, always saved, or  The idea of the perseverance of the saints in the sense that if a person is among the elect, that person will in fact be saved in the end.
  zh: 再次说明，在新教世界里，你可能更习惯于加尔文主义的观点，即一次得救永远得救，或者圣徒恒忍的观念，意思是如果一个人是选民，那么这个人最终实际上会得救。
- start: 205.419
  end: 207.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This really comes from Augustine.
  zh: 这实际上来自奥古斯丁。
- start: 207.2
  end: 208.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We looked at that.
  zh: 我们已经研究过这个。
- start: 209.622
  end: 217.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, that was part of Augustine's teaching that didn't get accepted by the greater church in the end.
  zh: 但再次强调，这是奥古斯丁教导的一部分，最终并没有被更广泛的教会接受。
- start: 217.428
  end: 223.32
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, in the early church,  One could lose one's salvation.
  zh: 因此，在早期教会，一个人可能失去救恩。
- start: 223.521
  end: 234.931
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's an expression in the ancient world, and I think it pops up in Ecclesiastes or Sirach or some of the wisdom literature, and the expression is something like this, called no man blessed while he lives.
  zh: 在古代世界有一句谚语，我想它出现在「传道书」或「德训篇」或一些智慧文学中，这句话大意是「活着的人不要称他为有福的」。
- start: 235.392
  end: 247.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, as long as someone's alive,  It's too early to comment on their life, because there's still time for them to screw it up.
  zh: 换句话说，只要一个人还活着，评论他们的生活为时尚早，因为他们还有时间把事情搞砸。
- start: 247.014
  end: 252.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Once a person's dead, then you can look at their life and try to make an assessment.
  zh: 一个人死后，你才能回顾他们的生平并试图做出评价。
- start: 252.456
  end: 258.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But even then, people do things in secret that they take to their graves, that never come to light.
  zh: 但即便如此，人们也会做一些秘密的事情带入坟墓，永远不为人知。
- start: 259.299
  end: 275.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Even after a person's dead, you can never really know for sure if they are, in fact,  There is one way, however, that you could know for sure.
  zh: 即使在一个人死后，你也永远无法确定他们是否真的……然而，有一种方式可以让你确定。
- start: 275.738
  end: 276.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Martyrdom.
  zh: 殉道。
- start: 277.059
  end: 282.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because martyrdom was considered a baptism in one's own blood.
  zh: 因为殉道被视为在自己的血中受洗。
- start: 282.763
  end: 304.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So even if you had sinned to the extent of undoing your own baptism, by being a martyr, by dying for Christ and by refusing to give up  So, martyrdom was the only sure thing.
  zh: 所以即使你犯罪到使自己的洗礼失效的程度，通过成为殉道者，为基督而死并拒绝放弃……因此，殉道是唯一确定的事。
- start: 304.45
  end: 310.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The only thing that one could be absolutely sure got one into heaven.
  zh: 这是唯一可以绝对确定能进入天堂的事。
- start: 311.455
  end: 318.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so martyrdom was understood as cancelling any and all sin, even previous apostasy.
  zh: 因此，殉道被理解为可以抵消任何和所有的罪，甚至包括之前的背教。
- start: 318.0
  end: 335.513
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, let's say during the time of the persecution,  If you made the sacrifice and you denied the faith to save your life, many people believed that your only hope after that was another chance at martyrdom, so that martyrdom could cancel out the apostasy.
  zh: 所以，假设在迫害时期，如果你做出了牺牲并否认信仰以保全性命，许多人认为你唯一的希望就是再次获得殉道的机会，这样殉道就可以抵消背教。
- start: 335.513
  end: 341.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you get cases of people volunteering for martyrdom, even though the church frowned on that.
  zh: 所以你会看到有人自愿殉道的案例，尽管教会不赞成这种做法。
- start: 341.335
  end: 349.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There were people who thought that their sins were so bad that their only hope of heaven was martyrdom, so they would volunteer to be martyred.
  zh: 有些人认为自己的罪孽深重，唯一进入天堂的希望就是殉道，所以他们会自愿成为殉道者。
- start: 350.435
  end: 358.442
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So all of that is to say that the martyrs of the early church are the ones whom the early Christians considered to be saints for sure.
  zh: 所以这一切都是为了说明，早期教会的殉道者是早期基督徒确信为圣人的人。
- start: 358.442
  end: 361.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, all Christians are saints.
  zh: 换句话说，所有基督徒都是圣徒。
- start: 361.645
  end: 367.95
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the New Testament language, you read Paul's letters, he addresses his letters to the saints of whatever city.
  zh: 在新约的语言中，你读保罗的书信，他将信写给各个城市的圣徒。
- start: 367.95
  end: 371.193
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He doesn't mean by that only the special Christians.
  zh: 他并不是指只有特殊的基督徒。
- start: 371.193
  end: 372.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He means all believers.
  zh: 他指的是所有信徒。
- start: 372.867
  end: 384.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: because the word saint means holy ones, those who are made holy, not because they've become perfect, but because by their commitment to Christ, God considers them holy.
  zh: 因为「圣徒」这个词意味着圣洁的人，那些被称为圣洁的人，不是因为他们变得完美，而是因为他们对基督的委身，神视他们为圣洁。
- start: 384.837
  end: 388.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, all Christians are saints in that sense.
  zh: 所以，从这个意义上说，所有基督徒都是圣徒。
- start: 388.82
  end: 398.607
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, we don't really know about any particular person's life unless that person was a martyr.
  zh: 但再次强调，除非那个人是殉道者，否则我们真的无法了解任何特定人的生平。
- start: 398.687
  end: 406.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Then we can be certain  that that person is really a saint, that that person is really in heaven with God.
  zh: 那么我们可以确定那个人真的是圣徒，那个人真的在天堂与神同在。
- start: 406.85
  end: 418.172
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so those people then are the people whom the early church could be confident were actually with God and close to God.
  zh: 因此，这些人就是早期教会可以确信实际上与神同在并亲近神的人。
- start: 418.773
  end: 428.355
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, if a person is close to God, one way that you could be closer to God is by getting closer to that person.
  zh: 现在，如果一个人亲近神，你可以更亲近神的一种方式就是更接近那个人。
- start: 428.851
  end: 431.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How do you get closer to a person who's died?
  zh: 你如何接近一个已经死去的人？
- start: 431.713
  end: 434.075
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: By going to their grave.
  zh: 通过去他们的坟墓。
- start: 434.075
  end: 446.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you go to the place where they're buried, usually in the catacombs, and by being in close proximity to the person's remains, people felt like they were closer to God.
  zh: 所以你去他们埋葬的地方，通常是在地下墓穴，通过靠近那个人的遗骸，人们感觉自己更接近神。
- start: 446.683
  end: 457.55
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, remember, there's already a tradition in Roman culture of having what amount to picnics at burial sites.
  zh: 现在，请记住，罗马文化中已经有在墓地举行类似野餐的传统。
- start: 457.688
  end: 472.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, to honor the ancestors, to honor the dead of your family, you would go to the gravesite, and maybe once a year, on the anniversary of their death, or whatever, you would have a feast.
  zh: 所以，为了纪念祖先，纪念家族中的死者，你会去墓地，也许每年一次，在他们的忌日或其他时候，你会举行一次宴会。
- start: 472.501
  end: 477.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this tradition, in Latin, it's the refrigerium.
  zh: 这个传统，在拉丁语中叫做「refrigerium」。
- start: 481.328
  end: 485.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is where we get our word refrigerator, right?
  zh: 这就是我们「冰箱」这个词的来源，对吧？
- start: 486.172
  end: 496.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the refrigerium is this tradition of having these feasts, like picnics, to honor the dead and to celebrate their life on the anniversary of their death.
  zh: 所以「refrigerium」是这种传统，举行这些宴会，类似野餐，在死者忌日纪念死者并庆祝他们的生平。
- start: 496.62
  end: 500.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This Roman tradition is a pre-Christian tradition.
  zh: 这个罗马传统是一个前基督教时期的传统。
- start: 500.723
  end: 517.38
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's combined with the idea of the martyrs as Christian saints, and so the feasts of the martyrs, or the feasts of the saints,  are people going out to the catacombs and literally worshipping at the gravesites.
  zh: 它与将殉道者视为基督教圣徒的观念结合在一起，所以殉道者的节日，或圣徒的节日，就是人们到地下墓穴去，在墓地实际进行敬拜。
- start: 518.041
  end: 529.327
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And when I say worshipping, I mean reading scripture, telling stories of the life of the person, the martyr, sometimes reading documents that are the Martyr Acts.
  zh: 当我说敬拜时，我指的是诵读经文，讲述那个人、殉道者的生平故事，有时还会阅读殉道行传这类文献。
- start: 530.208
  end: 533.95
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Sometimes a priest would come out and Mass would be celebrated.
  zh: 有时神父会出来举行弥撒。
- start: 535.051
  end: 555.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In those cases,  In situations where you could go down into the catacombs and the person was buried in a place where there was a sarcophagus, in some cases the lid of the sarcophagus literally became the table from which the food was served and from which the Eucharist was served.
  zh: 在那些情况下，当你可以下到地下墓穴，而死者被埋葬在有石棺的地方时，在某些情况下，石棺的盖子实际上成为了摆放食物和圣餐的桌子。
- start: 556.325
  end: 565.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So some of the earliest Eucharistic altars were the sarcophagi of the faithful departed.
  zh: 所以一些最早的圣餐祭坛就是忠信死者的石棺。
- start: 566.682
  end: 571.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And again, you read in the book, in reading the early Church Fathers, about the Martyr Acts.
  zh: 再次说明，你在书中读到，在阅读早期教父的著作时，会读到殉道行传。
- start: 571.345
  end: 580.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: These were documents that were written to honor the martyrs, to tell their stories, to glorify God through the stories of the martyrs and their heroic faith.
  zh: 这些文献是为了纪念殉道者而写的，讲述他们的故事，通过殉道者的故事和他们英勇的信仰来荣耀神。
- start: 580.992
  end: 586.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And of course, there's a lot of embellishment that got added on to those stories over time.
  zh: 当然，随着时间的推移，这些故事被添加了许多修饰。
- start: 586.436
  end: 590.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But these stories were read as a part of these celebrations.
  zh: 但这些故事被作为庆祝活动的一部分来诵读。
- start: 591.919
  end: 612.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, the sites where the martyrs were buried became  Significant holy sites, pilgrimage sites, people would go there and eventually when Emperor Constantine starts building churches, some of the first churches that Constantine built are over the tombs of the martyrs.
  zh: 因此，殉道者埋葬的地方成为了重要的圣地，朝圣地，人们会去那里，最终当君士坦丁皇帝开始建造教堂时，他建造的一些最早的教堂就建在殉道者的坟墓之上。
- start: 612.706
  end: 619.231
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, just like in the book of Revelation where it says that the martyrs are waiting under the altar.
  zh: 再次说明，就像「启示录」中所说的殉道者在祭坛下等待一样。
- start: 619.907
  end: 638.755
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that's exactly where they were, because some of these first churches were built directly over the tombs of the martyrs, and to this day, some of the basilicas of Rome are still on the same spot, directly over the tombs of Peter, Paul, and some others.
  zh: 这正是他们所在的地方，因为这些最早的教堂中有些就是直接建在殉道者的坟墓上，直到今天，罗马的一些大教堂仍然在同一地点，直接建在彼得、保罗和其他一些人的坟墓上。
- start: 639.516
  end: 651.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, these martyrs become the saints for sure, the ones whom you can be certain are in heaven with God,  And if they're in heaven with God, they can intercede for you.
  zh: 所以，这些殉道者肯定成为了圣徒，你可以确定他们在天堂与神同在，如果他们在天堂与神同在，他们就可以为你代祷。
- start: 651.388
  end: 668.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the thinking is that just like we read in the letter of James or whatever that people should ask each other to pray for them, if we can ask our brothers and sisters here on earth to pray for us, why not ask our brothers and sisters who are already in heaven to pray for us as well?
  zh: 所以这种想法是，就像我们在雅各书或其他书信中读到的，人们应该互相请求代祷，如果我们可以请求地上的弟兄姐妹为我们祷告，为什么不也请求已经在天堂的弟兄姐妹为我们祷告呢？
- start: 669.08
  end: 680.352
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because of the resurrection that they have experienced, they are in fact more alive than they ever were  And they're alive in Christ, and alive with Christ.
  zh: 因为他们经历了复活，他们实际上比以前更加活着，他们在基督里活着，与基督同活。
- start: 680.412
  end: 684.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, you know, again, remember what you know about martyrs and confessors.
  zh: 所以，你知道，再次回想一下你所知道的关于殉道者和认信者的事。
- start: 684.854
  end: 697.219
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If a confessor could be kind of a spiritual director, and even someone who could forgive sins, you could go to the prison and visit a confessor, and they could forgive your sins.
  zh: 如果一个认信者可以成为某种属灵导师，甚至是可以赦罪的人，你可以去监狱探访一个认信者，他们可以赦免你的罪。
- start: 697.219
  end: 701.921
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If that's possible, well then, why not the confessors or the martyrs in heaven?
  zh: 如果这是可能的，那么为什么不是天堂中的认信者或殉道者呢？
- start: 702.2
  end: 709.122
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not that they would directly forgive the sins, but that they would intercede with God on behalf of the living.
  zh: 不是说他们会直接赦罪，而是他们会代表活着的人向神代祷。
- start: 709.302
  end: 720.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, if a martyr or a confessor could do that for you on earth, imagine what he or she could do for you now that he or she is at God's side, so to speak.
  zh: 所以，如果一个殉道者或认信者在地上可以为你做这些，可以想象现在他或她在神身边，可以为你做什么。
- start: 720.866
  end: 725.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so people began to ask the dead saints to pray for them.
  zh: 因此人们开始请求已故的圣徒为他们祷告。
- start: 726.108
  end: 730.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so this tradition goes back at least to the second century.
  zh: 这个传统至少可以追溯到二世纪。
- start: 730.199
  end: 733.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We already see it in Clement of Alexandria.
  zh: 我们在亚历山大的克莱门特的著作中已经看到了这一点。
- start: 733.84
  end: 736.181
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We see it in the Acts of Paul and Thecla.
  zh: 我们在「保罗和特克拉行传」中看到了这一点。
- start: 738.042
  end: 743.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Cyprian, in the 3rd century, actually preached to his congregations.
  zh: 塞浦路斯在3世纪实际上向他的会众传道。
- start: 743.524
  end: 751.828
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He would say, by the way, if any of you are not alive when we come back here next week, be sure and pray for us.
  zh: 他会说，顺便说一句，如果你们中有人下周我们回来时已经不在人世了，一定要为我们祷告。
- start: 751.928
  end: 759.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in other words, sort of preemptively saying, if you have to die soon, we hope you'll pray for us.
  zh: 换句话说，他是在预先说，如果你们很快就要死了，我们希望你们会为我们祷告。
- start: 761.297
  end: 764.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That makes sense, I think, so far, right?
  zh: 到目前为止，我认为这是有道理的，对吧？
- start: 764.958
  end: 770.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Until martyrdom goes away, when Christianity becomes legalized.
  zh: 直到殉道消失，当基督教成为合法宗教时。
- start: 770.54
  end: 774.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you already know, once martyrdom goes away, what becomes the new martyrdom?
  zh: 但你已经知道，一旦殉道消失，什么成为了新的殉道？
- start: 774.401
  end: 776.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Asceticism.
  zh: 苦修主义。
- start: 776.121
  end: 784.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the ascetics, or the monastics, come to be seen as those who die to themselves daily.
  zh: 所以苦修者，或修道者，被视为每天向自己死的人。
- start: 784.744
  end: 792.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They submit themselves to a daily martyrdom in their asceticism,  And so they become the new saints for sure.
  zh: 他们在苦修中每天经历一种殉道，因此他们肯定成为了新的圣徒。
- start: 792.783
  end: 808.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so that when they pass on, they are held up as exemplars of the faith, examples to follow, and people whom you can be relatively certain are with God in heaven and who could intercede for you.
  zh: 所以当他们去世时，他们被奉为信仰的楷模，值得效法的榜样，你可以相对确定他们在天堂与神同在，并且可以为你代祷。
- start: 809.009
  end: 826.35
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the church, historically, over time,  We're going to talk about Mary in the second hour, but you can see where this is going.
  zh: 所以教会在历史上，随着时间的推移……我们将在第二个小时讨论马利亚，但你可以看到这将走向何方。
- start: 826.35
  end: 836.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Since Mary, the mother of Jesus, was considered to be without any sin,  She becomes the queen of the saints for sure.
  zh: 既然耶稣的母亲马利亚被认为是无罪的，她肯定成为了圣徒之后。
- start: 836.461
  end: 839.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We'll talk about that a little bit more in the next hour.
  zh: 我们将在下一个小时更详细地讨论这个问题。
- start: 839.562
  end: 845.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the point is that the ascetics become the new examples to follow, and they're alive.
  zh: 但关键是苦修者成为了新的效法榜样，而且他们还活着。
- start: 845.344
  end: 868.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Those who choose not only asceticism, but especially celibacy, those who choose celibacy are seen as living examples, or sort of  living object lessons, almost in the way that the prophets of the Old Testament would create these object lessons of the faith with their own lives.
  zh: 那些不仅选择苦修，尤其是选择独身的人，被视为活生生的榜样，或者说是活生生的实物教训，几乎就像旧约先知用自己的生命创造这些信仰的实物教训一样。
- start: 869.018
  end: 875.682
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Hosea marries the prostitute as an object lesson about the faith of Israel.
  zh: 何西阿娶妓女为妻，作为以色列信仰的一个实物教训。
- start: 876.063
  end: 890.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the ascetics then, those who choose celibacy, are creating an object lesson out of their lives, and this particular lesson teaches a certain eschatology  that emphasizes waiting.
  zh: 所以，苦修者，那些选择独身的人，正在用他们的生活创造一个实物教训，这个特殊的教训教导了一种强调等待的末世论。
- start: 890.977
  end: 908.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, it's as if to say, we know that God has given the command to be fruitful and multiply, but because we believe we're living in the last days, we're going to give that up, and we're going to live a life of waiting.
  zh: 换句话说，这就好像在说，我们知道神给了我们生养众多的命令，但因为我们相信我们正生活在末世，我们要放弃这个，我们要过一种等待的生活。
- start: 908.421
  end: 915.423
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And think about the waiting parables in the Gospels, the bridesmaids who are waiting for the return of the grooms.
  zh: 想想福音书中关于等待的比喻，那些等待新郎回来的伴娘。
- start: 915.423
  end: 918.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Five of them were smart, and five of them were foolish.
  zh: 其中五个是聪明的，五个是愚拙的。
- start: 919.005
  end: 924.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: smart ones stayed awake, kept their lamps lit, etc. They stayed alert.
  zh: 聪明的人保持清醒，保持灯的点燃等。他们保持警惕。
- start: 924.648
  end: 927.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The foolish ones failed to stay alert.
  zh: 愚拙的人没能保持警惕。
- start: 927.249
  end: 928.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you get the idea.
  zh: 但你明白这个意思。
- start: 928.51
  end: 940.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So asceticism, especially celibacy, is teaching a lesson of that kind of eschatology that emphasizes waiting for the return of Christ.
  zh: 所以苦修主义，尤其是独身，正在教导这种强调等待基督再来的末世论的教训。
- start: 941.037
  end: 954.089
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other thing you have to keep in mind is that in the ancient world they had a bit of a difference  We are looking at the possibility of communication between the living and the dead.
  zh: 你还要记住的另一件事是，在古代世界，他们有一些不同……我们正在探讨生者和死者之间交流的可能性。
- start: 954.089
  end: 956.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Think of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
  zh: 想想财主和拉撒路的比喻。
- start: 956.93
  end: 957.65
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember this one?
  zh: 还记得这个吗？
- start: 957.65
  end: 968.394
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Jesus tells the parable of a rich man and then there's this homeless man named Lazarus who sort of lives out at the gate but the rich man refuses to give him anything.
  zh: 耶稣讲了一个财主的比喻，然后有一个名叫拉撒路的无家可归的人住在门口，但财主拒绝给他任何东西。
- start: 968.434
  end: 981.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They both die and the rich man is described as being in torment  In a hot place, because he wants water.
  zh: 他们都死了，财主被描述为在痛苦中，在一个炎热的地方，因为他想要水。
- start: 983.157
  end: 988.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Lazarus, the poor man, is described as being in some sort of paradise in the bosom of Abraham.
  zh: 穷人拉撒路被描述为在亚伯拉罕的怀里，在某种天堂里。
- start: 988.838
  end: 991.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's gone to be with his ancestors.
  zh: 他去与他的祖先在一起了。
- start: 991.618
  end: 1001.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then there's this interesting conversation where the rich man yells up to Lazarus and says, hey, could you send some water down here?
  zh: 然后有一段有趣的对话，财主向拉撒路喊道：「嘿，你能送些水下来吗？」
- start: 1001.86
  end: 1011.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Lazarus is, sorry, there's this great chasm between  between me and you.
  zh: 拉撒路说，对不起，在我和你之间有一道深渊。
- start: 1011.152
  end: 1028.881
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The modern mind wants to focus on the chasm, but traditionally, the more traditional way of looking at it that you still find in the ancient denominations like Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, is that look at their talking to each other.
  zh: 现代人想要关注这道深渊，但传统上，你在罗马公教会、东正教等古老宗派中仍能找到的更传统的看法是，看他们在互相交谈。
- start: 1029.042
  end: 1032.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So in spite of the great chasm, there's this conversation that goes on.
  zh: 所以尽管有这道深渊，他们之间仍然进行着对话。
- start: 1032.343
  end: 1057.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the point being that  People believe and continue to believe that we can talk to the dead, in a way, because if we assume that they're with God, we're not saying that they are omniscient, that they can hear our prayers because they're divine in any sense, but by their proximity to God, it's sort of a gift of God.
  zh: 所以要点是人们相信并继续相信我们可以以某种方式与死者交谈，因为如果我们假设他们与神同在，我们并不是说他们是全知的，也不是说他们能听到我们的祷告是因为他们在任何意义上是神圣的，而是因为他们靠近神，这是神的一种恩赐。
- start: 1058.63
  end: 1060.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's the idea.
  zh: 这就是这个想法。
- start: 1061.29
  end: 1065.997
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I've started by saying  This is going to come up later.
  zh: 我开始时说过，这个问题稍后会出现。
- start: 1065.997
  end: 1067.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is going to be important later.
  zh: 这在稍后会变得重要。
- start: 1067.218
  end: 1072.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I started by saying we're going to talk about the veneration of the saints.
  zh: 但我一开始说我们要讨论对圣徒的敬奉。
- start: 1072.62
  end: 1075.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And veneration is kind of a technical term.
  zh: 敬奉是一个专业术语。
- start: 1077.102
  end: 1081.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what it does not mean is it does not mean the same thing as worship.
  zh: 但它的意思不是崇拜，它与崇拜不是同一个意思。
- start: 1082.824
  end: 1087.006
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So we're not talking about the worship of the saints or the worship of Mary.
  zh: 所以我们不是在谈论对圣徒的崇拜或对马利亚的崇拜。
- start: 1087.006
  end: 1094.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That would imply that they are divine beings and that a relationship with them is somehow an end in itself.
  zh: 那将意味着他们是神圣的存在，与他们的关系本身就是目的。
- start: 1094.85
  end: 1102.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end, and that end would be a closer relationship with God.
  zh: 它本身不是目的，它是达到目的的手段，而那个目的是与神建立更亲密的关系。
- start: 1102.297
  end: 1117.732
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, whether or not one thinks that's necessary is a different question, but I do want you to understand that we're working with two commandments here, because you know the commandment about having no other gods.
  zh: 现在，一个人是否认为这是必要的是另一个问题，但我确实希望你明白我们这里涉及两条诫命，因为你知道不可有别的神的诫命。
- start: 1118.005
  end: 1120.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, worship only the one God.
  zh: 所以，只崇拜独一的神。
- start: 1120.187
  end: 1124.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's a commandment against worshiping anything or anyone else.
  zh: 有一条诫命禁止崇拜任何其他事物或人。
- start: 1124.15
  end: 1126.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A commandment against idolatry.
  zh: 一条反对偶像崇拜的诫命。
- start: 1126.531
  end: 1133.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At the same time, there's also a commandment to honor your father and mother, honor your parents, honor your ancestors.
  zh: 同时，还有一条诫命要求孝敬父母，尊敬父母，尊敬祖先。
- start: 1133.977
  end: 1145.845
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, veneration is a form of that same kind of honor that we are commanded to show to our forebears and our ancestors, even the ones who pass on.
  zh: 所以，敬奉是我们被命令要向我们的先辈和祖先表示的那种尊敬的一种形式，即使是那些已经去世的人。
- start: 1147.978
  end: 1154.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So to pray to a saint, then, is not to worship the saint.
  zh: 所以向圣徒祷告，并不是崇拜圣徒。
- start: 1155.001
  end: 1157.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Prayer itself is not worship.
  zh: 祷告本身不是崇拜。
- start: 1157.602
  end: 1166.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You probably instinctively know that the word pray is a fancy way of saying ask.
  zh: 你可能本能地知道「祷告」这个词是「请求」的一种高雅说法。
- start: 1167.367
  end: 1180.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Prayer in and of itself is not worship because I can, in a more archaic form of English, I can pray  So, prayer in and of itself is not a form of worship.
  zh: 祷告本身不是崇拜，因为我可以用更古老的英语形式说「我祈求」……所以，祷告本身不是崇拜的一种形式。
- start: 1180.842
  end: 1185.203
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's what you do with the prayer or what you say in the prayer.
  zh: 关键是你如何使用祷告或在祷告中说什么。
- start: 1203.154
  end: 1215.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To pray to the saint is considered not worship, but a form of veneration in which one asks the saint for intercession.
  zh: 向圣徒祷告不被认为是崇拜，而是一种敬奉的形式，在这种形式中，人们请求圣徒代祷。
- start: 1217.648
  end: 1225.895
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, another technical distinction, we're talking intercession, not intervention.
  zh: 再次强调，这是另一个技术性的区别，我们说的是代祷，而不是干预。
- start: 1229.448
  end: 1239.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To ask a saint or any dead person to intervene in your life would be to ascribe power to that person, which is technically not what you're supposed to do.
  zh: 请求圣徒或任何死者干预你的生活就是将权力归于那个人，这在技术上不是你应该做的。
- start: 1239.815
  end: 1250.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if any of you come from traditions that include prayer to the saints, you're not supposed to be asking them to actually do anything for you.
  zh: 所以如果你们中有人来自包括向圣徒祷告的传统，你不应该请求他们实际为你做任何事。
- start: 1250.181
  end: 1252.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're supposed to be asking for intercession.
  zh: 你应该是在请求代祷。
- start: 1252.723
  end: 1255.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're supposed to be asking for them to pray for you.
  zh: 你应该是在请求他们为你祷告。
- start: 1257.699
  end: 1272.272
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it's a subtle distinction, which, if you know folks who practice prayer to the saints, and if you hear the prayers out loud, you will run across people who don't get the distinction and who cross the line.
  zh: 这是一个微妙的区别，如果你认识实践向圣徒祷告的人，如果你听到他们大声祷告，你会遇到一些不理解这种区别并越界的人。
- start: 1272.272
  end: 1286.781
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, for example, let's say I want to, well, let's say  Let's say I know someone who is ill, and I want to pray for that person.
  zh: 所以，举个例子，假设我想……好吧，假设我认识一个生病的人，我想为那个人祷告。
- start: 1286.781
  end: 1288.022
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So I would pray for that person.
  zh: 所以我会为那个人祷告。
- start: 1288.022
  end: 1291.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I would ask my living friends and relatives to pray for that person.
  zh: 我会请我在世的朋友和亲戚为那个人祷告。
- start: 1291.544
  end: 1294.447
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I might also decide to ask a saint to pray for that person.
  zh: 但我也可能决定请一位圣徒为那个人祷告。
- start: 1294.447
  end: 1302.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So let's just use Saint Padre Pio, who is a relatively recent 20th century saint.
  zh: 让我们以圣帕德雷皮奥为例，他是一位相对较近的20世纪圣徒。
- start: 1302.412
  end: 1307.216
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So let's say I want to ask for the intercession of Saint Padre Pio.
  zh: 所以假设我想请求圣帕德雷皮奥的代祷。
- start: 1307.977
  end: 1323.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The right way to do it would be to say,  St. Theo, I'm asking you to pray to our Father, to pray to our God, for my friend who is sick, that God might heal my friend.
  zh: 正确的方式是说：「圣帕德雷皮奥，我请求你向我们的天父，向我们的神祷告，为我生病的朋友祈求，愿神医治我的朋友。」
- start: 1323.377
  end: 1325.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That would be the right way to do it.
  zh: 这才是正确的做法。
- start: 1325.338
  end: 1331.682
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The wrong way to do it would be, St. Theo, please heal my friend.
  zh: 错误的做法是说：「圣帕德雷皮奥，请医治我的朋友。」
- start: 1331.682
  end: 1355.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That would be the wrong way to do it, because you're asking for someone who is a mere human to do something  Now, having said that, there are miracles ascribed to many of these saints, and so there are healings and other miracles that are said to happen by the intercession of the saints.
  zh: 这是错误的做法，因为你在请求一个普通人做某事。话虽如此，许多圣徒被认为行过奇迹，所以有一些治愈和其他奇迹据说是通过圣徒的代祷而发生的。
- start: 1355.965
  end: 1359.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, it's from their intercession, and it's really God who's doing the thing.
  zh: 但再次强调，这是通过他们的代祷，真正做事的是神。
- start: 1364.193
  end: 1374.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We don't assume that the saint is omniscient and hears our prayers on his or her own power, but only as a gift of God.
  zh: 我们不认为圣徒是全知的，能凭自己的能力听到我们的祷告，而只是作为神的恩赐。
- start: 1374.14
  end: 1383.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we don't assume that a saint is omnipotent and can do things as all-powerful, because that also would be an attribute of God.
  zh: 我们也不认为圣徒是全能的，能做全能的事，因为那也是神的属性。
- start: 1385.448
  end: 1388.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, this is the distinction.
  zh: 所以，这就是区别。
- start: 1388.931
  end: 1396.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Asking for intercession  But again, as I said, in popular piety, people mix that up all the time.
  zh: 请求代祷……但正如我所说，在民间信仰中，人们经常混淆这一点。
- start: 1397.312
  end: 1402.914
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you may hear it done incorrectly, but that's the way it's supposed to work.
  zh: 所以你可能会听到错误的做法，但这才是应该的方式。
- start: 1404.874
  end: 1426.97
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The early reformers didn't really reject this sort of devotion, although  Luther was worried that prayer to the saints, and especially prayer to Mary, might create the appearance of another mediator.
  zh: 早期的改革者并没有真正拒绝这种敬奉，尽管路德担心向圣徒祷告，特别是向马利亚祷告，可能会造成另一个中保的假象。
- start: 1426.97
  end: 1435.679
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This becomes kind of the issue, and probably is for those of you who have put any thought into this.
  zh: 这成为了一个问题，对于那些思考过这个问题的人来说可能也是如此。
- start: 1437.022
  end: 1452.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Assuming you're Protestant and you have Catholic or Orthodox relatives or friends and you are aware of this tradition, one of the first issues that pops into your head is that we're supposed to have one and only one mediator, and that is Jesus Christ.
  zh: 假设你是新教徒，你有公教会或东正教的亲戚或朋友，你了解这个传统，首先出现在你脑海中的问题之一是我们应该只有一个中保，那就是耶稣基督。
- start: 1452.806
  end: 1462.408
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Doesn't the veneration of saints or devotion to the saints put other mediators between us and God, or in fact between us and Christ?
  zh: 对圣徒的敬奉或对圣徒的崇敬难道不是在我们与神之间，或实际上在我们与基督之间放置了其他中保吗？
- start: 1462.408
  end: 1471.674
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That can be the danger, especially if we allow  The veneration of the saint to become a kind of end in itself.
  zh: 这可能是一个危险，特别是如果我们允许对圣徒的敬奉本身成为一种目的。
- start: 1471.794
  end: 1480.7
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, in case you're worried about that, the Catholic Church has clarified that that's not what it's supposed to be, and that Christ is the only mediator.
  zh: 但是，如果你担心这一点，公教会已经澄清这不是应该的做法，基督是唯一的中保。
- start: 1481.601
  end: 1511.33
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, thinking back to the martyrs and the site of their burials in the catacombs,  You can imagine how if people felt that being close to a saint's remains made them feel closer to God, what if they could actually touch the saint's remains?
  zh: 现在，回想一下殉道者和他们在地下墓穴的埋葬地，你可以想象如果人们觉得靠近圣徒的遗骸让他们感觉更接近神，如果他们能真正触摸到圣徒的遗骸会怎样？
- start: 1511.33
  end: 1515.532
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What if they could handle, what if they could take something home?
  zh: 如果他们能拿到，如果他们能带一些东西回家呢？
- start: 1515.532
  end: 1519.895
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, although that's frowned upon.
  zh: 你知道，尽管这是不被赞成的。
- start: 1519.895
  end: 1528.794
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the point is that the physical remains of a saint  are called relics.
  zh: 但重点是圣徒的物质遗骸被称为圣物。
- start: 1528.794
  end: 1541.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the term actually comes from the Latin, relicta, that's plural, but things left behind, remains.
  zh: 这个词实际上来自拉丁语「relicta」，这是复数形式，意思是留下的东西，遗骸。
- start: 1541.657
  end: 1542.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's what it means.
  zh: 这就是它的意思。
- start: 1542.958
  end: 1545.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, when a person dies, what's left behind?
  zh: 所以，当一个人死后，留下了什么？
- start: 1545.158
  end: 1547.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Their body, body parts.
  zh: 他们的身体，身体部位。
- start: 1547.619
  end: 1576.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, as early as the document, the Martyrdom of Polycarp, from the middle of the second century,  I don't think I signed that one, did I? But if you read the Martyrdom of Polycarp, what the document tells you is that after he died, his friends, fellow believers, collected his body, and his body was, his remains were considered relics.
  zh: 所以，早在二世纪中叶的文献「坡旅甲殉道记」中……我想我没有提到过这个，是吗？但如果你读「坡旅甲殉道记」，这份文献告诉你，在他死后，他的朋友，同信的人收集了他的遗体，他的遗体，他的遗骸被视为圣物。
- start: 1576.584
  end: 1590.628
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So already this kind of thinking is there, and so it's interesting because  On the one hand, a dead saint is considered close to God.
  zh: 所以这种思想已经存在了，这很有趣，因为一方面，已故的圣徒被认为接近神。
- start: 1590.828
  end: 1595.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, if you want to be close to God, you want to be close to the saint's remains.
  zh: 所以，如果你想亲近神，你就想亲近圣徒的遗骸。
- start: 1595.032
  end: 1603.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the other hand, though, wherever the remains are, the saint is considered to be present there in some way still.
  zh: 但另一方面，无论遗骸在哪里，圣徒仍然被认为以某种方式存在于那里。
- start: 1604.361
  end: 1611.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, again, to go to the sites where the relics are became a pilgrimage.
  zh: 所以，再次说明，去圣物所在地成为了一种朝圣。
- start: 1612.864
  end: 1621.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The shrines were built and people would make pilgrimages to the sites where the saints' relics were.
  zh: 人们建造了圣殿，并会朝圣到存放圣徒圣物的地方。
- start: 1621.308
  end: 1636.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And eventually, when places outside of the Holy Land and Rome didn't have any martyrs' remains, the church would sort of divvy them up and send them around.
  zh: 最终，当圣地和罗马以外的地方没有殉道者的遗骸时，教会就会将它们分配并送到各处。
- start: 1636.715
  end: 1647.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so martyrs  Body could be exhumed and maybe brought into one of the basilicas inside the city of Rome, brought in from the catacombs.
  zh: 因此，殉道者的遗体可能被挖掘出来，也许被带到罗马城内的一座大教堂中，从地下墓穴中带出来。
- start: 1647.011
  end: 1654.514
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But in the process, maybe some of the body parts are given to another church in another city so that they can have a relic.
  zh: 但在这个过程中，一些身体部位可能被给予另一个城市的教会，这样他们也可以拥有一件圣物。
- start: 1655.294
  end: 1658.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so they kind of spread them around.
  zh: 所以他们就这样把圣物分散开来。
- start: 1658.275
  end: 1665.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's a church in Rome, Santa Maria Cosa Medina, has the relic of the skull of Saint Valentine.
  zh: 在罗马有一座教堂，圣玛利亚科萨梅迪纳教堂，拥有圣瓦伦丁的头骨圣物。
- start: 1666.384
  end: 1672.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And now we're not going to debate the accuracy or the historical reality of the skull of St. Valentine, just go ahead.
  zh: 现在我们不会讨论圣瓦伦丁头骨的准确性或历史真实性，就这样继续吧。
- start: 1672.788
  end: 1675.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the point is this, where is the rest of him?
  zh: 但重点是，他的其他部分在哪里？
- start: 1675.89
  end: 1685.175
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The rest of him is in a Carmelite church in Dublin because it was given as a gift by one of the bishops of Rome to the Irish Catholics.
  zh: 他的其余部分在都柏林的一座加尔默罗会教堂里，因为它是罗马的一位主教赠送给爱尔兰公教会徒的礼物。
- start: 1685.916
  end: 1690.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you want to see all of St. Valentine, you have to go to both places, Dublin and Rome.
  zh: 所以如果你想看到圣瓦伦丁的全部，你必须去两个地方，都柏林和罗马。
- start: 1690.999
  end: 1692.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you get the idea.
  zh: 但你明白这个意思。
- start: 1694.088
  end: 1700.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so relics become a way of connecting with the saints, and through them, a way of connecting to God.
  zh: 因此，圣物成为与圣徒联系的一种方式，并通过他们与神联系。
- start: 1700.37
  end: 1704.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, question?
  zh: 是的，有问题吗？
- start: 1704.09
  end: 1707.551
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, the shrine is the place where the relics are held.
  zh: 嗯，圣殿是存放圣物的地方。
- start: 1707.571
  end: 1715.953
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, when the relics are buried, you know, in the catacombs or whatever, the shrine could simply be the chapel built over the spot.
  zh: 所以，当圣物被埋葬在地下墓穴或其他地方时，圣殿可能只是建在那个地点上的小教堂。
- start: 1716.053
  end: 1730.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But when they're brought into the city, or brought up to the surface,  Sometimes, especially if you don't have the whole body, or if there isn't that much left, maybe you have a bone or something, it'll be put in a reliquary.
  zh: 但当它们被带入城市或被带到地面上时，有时，特别是如果你没有完整的遗体，或者没有剩下太多，也许你有一块骨头或什么的，它会被放在圣物匣里。
- start: 1730.659
  end: 1746.685
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it could be a fancy box with a window in the front, and on a red velvet pillow, there's the bone of the martyr, and there's a little ribbon around it with a tag that says, you know, Saint so-and-so.
  zh: 所以它可能是一个前面有窗户的精美盒子，里面有一个红色天鹅绒枕头，上面放着殉道者的骨头，周围有一条小丝带，上面有一个标签写着某某圣人的名字。
- start: 1746.685
  end: 1751.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And people would, you know, you could go and visit, feel close to the martyr.
  zh: 人们会，你知道，你可以去参观，感觉与殉道者亲近。
- start: 1751.469
  end: 1755.192
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, I'm not suggesting you go out and do this.
  zh: 再次说明，我并不是建议你去做这些。
- start: 1755.192
  end: 1759.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you do need to understand the tradition behind this.
  zh: 但你确实需要理解这背后的传统。
- start: 1760.356
  end: 1764.559
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so any questions about saints and Rebels?
  zh: 好的，关于圣徒和圣物还有什么问题吗？
- start: 1766.781
  end: 1773.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, I'm going to switch gears here and talk about penance and reconciliation now.
  zh: 好的，我现在要转换话题，谈谈忏悔和和好。
- start: 1774.167
  end: 1779.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You may know that in  In the older traditions, this is a sacrament.
  zh: 你可能知道在较古老的传统中，这是一种圣事。
- start: 1779.148
  end: 1785.513
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the Roman Catholic Church, for example, penance and reconciliation is one of the seven sacraments.
  zh: 例如，在罗马公教会中，忏悔和和好是七大圣事之一。
- start: 1787.035
  end: 1790.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, for this topic, we have to go back to the beginning.
  zh: 但再次说明，对于这个话题，我们必须回到最初。
- start: 1791.018
  end: 1797.724
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: From the beginning, it appears that confession was always a part of the Eucharist.
  zh: 从一开始，忏悔似乎就一直是圣餐的一部分。
- start: 1797.724
  end: 1803.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You didn't receive the Eucharist without first confessing your sins.
  zh: 你不会在没有先忏悔你的罪之前领受圣餐。
- start: 1804.286
  end: 1820.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, in most cases, at the very beginning, this was probably a liturgical element, like a corporate prayer confession, which still exists in some communion liturgies, where you have a unison prayer confession.
  zh: 现在，在大多数情况下，一开始这可能是一个礼仪元素，比如集体祷告忏悔，这在一些圣餐礼仪中仍然存在，你会有一个齐声的祷告忏悔。
- start: 1821.798
  end: 1827.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But remember when we talked about the controversy over the lapsed.
  zh: 但请记住我们讨论过关于背教者的争议。
- start: 1827.721
  end: 1834.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And after the persecution, the question became, you know, what to do with the lapsed who want to come back into the church?
  zh: 在迫害之后，问题变成了，你知道，如何处理那些想要回到教会的背教者？
- start: 1834.544
  end: 1841.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because we had martyrs who gave their life rather than give up the faith.
  zh: 因为我们有殉道者宁愿献出生命也不放弃信仰。
- start: 1842.207
  end: 1850.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then we have other people who made the sacrifice to save not only their lives, but their businesses or whatever, their money, their livelihood.
  zh: 然后我们有其他人，他们做出牺牲不仅是为了保全生命，还有他们的生意或其他东西，他们的钱，他们的生计。
- start: 1850.509
  end: 1853.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then when the persecution subsides, they want to come back to church.
  zh: 当迫害平息后，他们想要回到教会。
- start: 1853.611
  end: 1867.197
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And many people, if you remember Novation, many people felt that to allow these people back into church and back to the table of the Eucharist would be a slap in the face to those who gave their lives not to make the sacrifices.
  zh: 如果你还记得诺瓦提安，许多人认为允许这些人回到教会并重新参与圣餐，对那些宁死不屈的人来说是一种侮辱。
- start: 1868.678
  end: 1875.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, as is the case many times, there were sort of two extreme views, and the church landed somewhere in the middle.
  zh: 所以，就像很多时候一样，有两种极端观点，而教会最后采取了一种中间立场。
- start: 1875.542
  end: 1886.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, one extreme view was just let them waltz back in with no consequences,  The other extreme view was excommunicate them forever and we never want to see them again.
  zh: 你知道，一种极端观点是让他们毫无后果地回来，另一种极端观点是永远开除他们的教籍，我们再也不想见到他们。
- start: 1886.36
  end: 1898.685
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the middle way was a way of receiving them back into fellowship, but with consequences, so that it couldn't be said that there were no consequences.
  zh: 而中间的方式是接纳他们回到团契，但要承担后果，这样就不能说没有任何后果。
- start: 1898.865
  end: 1913.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so what you get then is the concept of confession,  and then reconciliation of the person who has been excommunicated, that person is reconciled to the church.
  zh: 所以你得到的是忏悔的概念，然后是被开除教籍的人的和好，那个人与教会和好。
- start: 1913.358
  end: 1916.74
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the consequences are penance.
  zh: 而后果就是补赎。
- start: 1917.08
  end: 1923.243
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Penance is the outward invisible sign of the inward repentance.
  zh: 补赎是内心悔改的外在可见标志。
- start: 1924.003
  end: 1938.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now already by the third century, you had some groups within the church, and I'm thinking specifically of some Celtic Christians, but you have  folks who were already creating what they call penitential books.
  zh: 到了三世纪，教会内已经有一些团体，我特别想到一些凯尔特基督徒，他们已经在创作所谓的忏悔书。
- start: 1939.543
  end: 1946.866
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, a list that says, if you commit this sin, now here's the penance.
  zh: 换句话说，这是一个列表，说明如果你犯了这个罪，这就是相应的补赎。
- start: 1947.507
  end: 1954.55
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I know, you know, probably your main access to this kind of thinking is Hollywood, which is always a bad idea.
  zh: 我知道，你了解这种思想的主要途径可能是好莱坞，这总是一个糟糕的主意。
- start: 1954.55
  end: 1965.219
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, you know, I know you can picture any number of movies where, you know, a person goes into the confessional booth and, you know, there's a screen,  Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned.
  zh: 但是，你知道，我知道你可以想象许多电影中的场景，一个人进入忏悔室，有一个屏风，「神父，请原谅我，我犯了罪。」
- start: 1965.219
  end: 1966.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Blah, blah, blah.
  zh: 巴拉巴拉巴拉。
- start: 1966.4
  end: 1967.882
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I did this, that, and the other thing.
  zh: 我做了这个，那个，还有其他的事。
- start: 1967.882
  end: 1975.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the priest says, okay, well, you shouldn't have done that now, Johnny.
  zh: 神父说，好吧，约翰尼，你不应该那样做。
- start: 1975.108
  end: 1977.97
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Say, ten Hail Marys.
  zh: 念十遍圣母经。
- start: 1977.97
  end: 1980.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Ten Hail Marys and an Our Father or something like that.
  zh: 十遍圣母经和一遍主祷文或类似的东西。
- start: 1980.432
  end: 1981.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that's the text.
  zh: 这就是台词。
- start: 1981.773
  end: 1985.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, that is sort of the watered-down version of it.
  zh: 嗯，这是一种简化版本。
- start: 1985.156
  end: 1997.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the point was, from the beginning, that there ought to be a sort of standardized mix of  What penance you would do based on what sin was committed.
  zh: 但从一开始，重点就是应该有一种标准化的方式，根据所犯的罪来决定你应该做什么样的补赎。
- start: 1997.522
  end: 2000.725
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, there's a couple things going on here that are important to understand.
  zh: 现在，这里有几件重要的事情需要理解。
- start: 2000.725
  end: 2003.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: First of all, I think we've been over this before.
  zh: 首先，我想我们之前已经讨论过这个。
- start: 2004.688
  end: 2009.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No one in the early church believed that all sin was equal in the eyes of God.
  zh: 早期教会没有人相信在神眼中所有的罪都是平等的。
- start: 2009.473
  end: 2012.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's another idea that comes up much later.
  zh: 那是后来才出现的另一种观念。
- start: 2012.295
  end: 2015.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the early church, some sins are worse than others.
  zh: 在早期教会，有些罪比其他罪更严重。
- start: 2016.489
  end: 2031.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And, you know, you have this idea that the worst kinds of sins, the precursors to the idea of mortal sins, sins leading to death, to quote one of the John letters, would be any sin that broke one of the Ten Commandments.
  zh: 你知道，你有这样的想法，最严重的罪，就是致死的罪的前身，引用约翰书信中的话说是导致死亡的罪，就是任何违反十诫之一的罪。
- start: 2031.754
  end: 2033.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That would be the worst.
  zh: 那将是最糟糕的。
- start: 2033.615
  end: 2050.97
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the worst of the worst, and this comes out of the persecutions especially, the worst of the worst sins that you could commit would be apostasy, to deny the faith,  adultery was like a close second, and murder was like a distant third.
  zh: 但最糟糕中的最糟糕，这特别是源于迫害时期，你能犯的最严重的罪就是背教，否认信仰，通奸紧随其后，谋杀则排在第三位。
- start: 2050.97
  end: 2054.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, you might want to say, well, why is murder not as bad as adultery?
  zh: 现在，你可能会问，为什么谋杀不如通奸严重？
- start: 2054.093
  end: 2058.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, I don't know if I'd want to say it's not as bad, really, but they probably just didn't deal with it as much.
  zh: 嗯，我不知道是否应该说它不那么严重，实际上，他们可能只是不经常处理这种情况。
- start: 2058.757
  end: 2069.265
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Adultery was probably much more prevalent in the early church, and so they talk about it more and they emphasize how bad it is.
  zh: 通奸在早期教会可能更为普遍，所以他们更多地谈论它，并强调它有多糟糕。
- start: 2069.686
  end: 2075.21
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other one, of course, that the church came to the conclusion that the only thing worse than heresy was schism.
  zh: 当然，另一个结论是教会认为唯一比异端更糟糕的就是分裂。
- start: 2075.737
  end: 2079.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you get the point.
  zh: 但你明白这个意思。
- start: 2079.68
  end: 2084.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The point is that no one believed that all sins were equal in the eyes of God.
  zh: 重点是没有人相信在神眼中所有的罪都是平等的。
- start: 2084.283
  end: 2086.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some sins are worse than others.
  zh: 有些罪比其他罪更严重。
- start: 2086.465
  end: 2091.768
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And if that's true, then the penance for a worse sin ought to be more serious.
  zh: 如果这是真的，那么对更严重的罪的补赎就应该更严厉。
- start: 2092.869
  end: 2105.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not that penance is meant to make up for the sin, per se, but it's more that penance was meant to show the sincerity of one's repentance.
  zh: 补赎并不是为了弥补罪过本身，而更多是为了表明一个人悔改的诚意。
- start: 2105.12
  end: 2107.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because repentance is inward, you can't prove that.
  zh: 因为悔改是内在的，你无法证明。
- start: 2107.641
  end: 2111.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you can show your sincerity by doing penance.
  zh: 但你可以通过做补赎来表明你的诚意。
- start: 2111.762
  end: 2117.424
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, as you can imagine, in popular thinking, of course, it quickly became a kind of this-for-that mentality.
  zh: 现在，你可以想象，在普遍的思维中，它很快就变成了一种以此换彼的心态。
- start: 2117.484
  end: 2121.005
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Do this, this makes up for it.
  zh: 做这个，这就可以弥补了。
- start: 2121.005
  end: 2132.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the other reason why it was important to have a sort of standardized list, as much as possible, of course, the early church, almost nothing standardized, but you get the idea.
  zh: 但另一个重要原因是要有一个尽可能标准化的列表，当然，早期教会几乎没有什么是标准化的，但你明白这个意思。
- start: 2132.929
  end: 2135.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The reason is,  So that no one plays favorites.
  zh: 原因是，这样就没有人会偏袒。
- start: 2136.263
  end: 2148.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So imagine if I'm the priest, and my best friend comes to me and says, you know, I cheated on my wife, and I say, oh, you know, you shouldn't do that, but your penance is to wash my car.
  zh: 所以想象一下，如果我是神父，我最好的朋友来告诉我说，你知道，我对不起我的妻子，我说，哦，你知道，你不应该这样做，但你的补赎是洗我的车。
- start: 2149.513
  end: 2156.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then my worst enemy comes to me and says, I cheated on my wife, and I give him a terrible, you know, a really harsh penance because I don't like the guy.
  zh: 然后我最大的敌人来告诉我说，我对不起我的妻子，我给他一个可怕的，你知道，一个非常严厉的补赎，因为我不喜欢这个人。
- start: 2156.858
  end: 2159.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, it's meant to prevent that sort of thing, right?
  zh: 嗯，这是为了防止那种情况发生，对吧？
- start: 2160.402
  end: 2165.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you sin and you are free, you must sacrifice a ox.
  zh: 如果你犯罪而你是自由的，你必须献祭一头牛。
- start: 2179.298
  end: 2184.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: that if you're a priest, you have more of a responsibility not to sin because you're set in advance.
  zh: 如果你是神父，你有更大的责任不去犯罪，因为你是预先被设立的。
- start: 2184.8
  end: 2187.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Is that what you're getting at?
  zh: 这就是你想说的吗？
- start: 2187.401
  end: 2193.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the Leviticus tradition, there's a list of if you sin and you are...
  zh: 在利未记的传统中，有一个列表说如果你犯罪而你是……
- start: 2193.044
  end: 2194.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh yeah, you do this, here's the...
  zh: 哦是的，你做这个，这就是……
- start: 2194.984
  end: 2197.465
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So this is where the idea of...
  zh: 所以这就是……的想法的来源
- start: 2197.465
  end: 2201.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I imagine so, that it's based on that kind of an idea.
  zh: 我想是的，它是基于那种想法。
- start: 2201.467
  end: 2204.929
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That there is something that needs to be done.
  zh: 有些事情需要去做。
- start: 2204.929
  end: 2208.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's some consequence that needs to be taken care of in order to...
  zh: 有一些后果需要处理以便……
- start: 2208.783
  end: 2213.066
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: to reconcile to the Church and to God.
  zh: 与教会和神和好。
- start: 2213.767
  end: 2237.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We may have covered this a bit when we were talking about the persecutions, but in the aftermath of the persecutions, when these councils in Carthage and Rome had to decide what the penances would be for certain things, people who had made pagan sacrifices to save their lives had to undergo serious penance.
  zh: 我们在讨论迫害时可能已经提到过这一点，但在迫害结束后，当迦太基和罗马的这些会议必须决定某些事情的补赎时，那些为了保全生命而进行异教祭祀的人必须接受严厉的补赎。
- start: 2237.341
  end: 2242.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And sometimes it took a long time, even years, before they were reconciled with the church.
  zh: 有时需要很长时间，甚至数年，他们才能与教会和好。
- start: 2242.963
  end: 2252.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the steps toward restoration or toward reconciliation after excommunication could be kind of elaborate.
  zh: 因此，被开除教籍后走向恢复或和好的步骤可能相当复杂。
- start: 2253.846
  end: 2256.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There are basically four steps.
  zh: 基本上有四个步骤。
- start: 2257.387
  end: 2259.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The first step was to be a weaver.
  zh: 第一步是成为一个哭泣者。
- start: 2259.767
  end: 2271.378
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the idea was you spend a certain amount of time outside of the assembly, not allowed in,  And asking the people who come and go to pray for you.
  zh: 所以这个想法是你在会众之外花一定的时间，不允许进入，并请求来往的人为你祷告。
- start: 2271.378
  end: 2274.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And perhaps even, you know, wearing sackcloth and ashes or something like that.
  zh: 甚至可能，你知道，穿麻衣蒙灰或类似的东西。
- start: 2274.699
  end: 2279.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, it's to be physically an outsider.
  zh: 但再次强调，这是要在身体上成为一个局外人。
- start: 2280.301
  end: 2289.584
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then, you know, this idea that a lot of the early church writers talk about, you know, we will know the sincerity of their repentance by their tears.
  zh: 然后，你知道，这是许多早期教会作家谈论的想法，你知道，我们将通过他们的眼泪来知道他们悔改的诚意。
- start: 2291.461
  end: 2299.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: After spending a certain amount of time as a weeper, you would become a hearer, meaning you can now go into the assembly and hear what's going on, but you cannot participate.
  zh: 在作为哭泣者度过一段时间后，你会成为一个听者，意味着你现在可以进入会众听听发生了什么，但你不能参与。
- start: 2299.852
  end: 2302.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can only listen to the service.
  zh: 你只能听礼拜。
- start: 2303.718
  end: 2306.06
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And probably, like, stand in back.
  zh: 可能还要站在后面。
- start: 2306.341
  end: 2309.885
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Maybe even behind a curtain, depending on the situation.
  zh: 根据情况，甚至可能站在帘子后面。
- start: 2310.265
  end: 2314.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: After spending a certain amount of time as a hearer, you'd become a kneeler.
  zh: 在作为听者度过一段时间后，你会成为一个跪拜者。
- start: 2314.687
  end: 2318.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Kneelers can come farther into the assembly but must kneel.
  zh: 跪拜者可以进入会众更深处，但必须跪下。
- start: 2318.51
  end: 2321.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Everyone else is standing, remember, there's no pews, right?
  zh: 记住，其他人都是站着的，没有长凳，对吧？
- start: 2321.091
  end: 2322.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Everyone's standing.
  zh: 每个人都站着。
- start: 2322.232
  end: 2324.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the kneelers have to kneel.
  zh: 但跪拜者必须跪下。
- start: 2324.233
  end: 2332.157
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Kneeling in the early church is a sign of humility and penance.
  zh: 在早期教会，跪拜是谦卑和忏悔的标志。
- start: 2332.677
  end: 2336.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then after during a certain amount of time as a kneeler, you become a co-stander.
  zh: 然后在作为跪拜者度过一段时间后，你成为一个共立者。
- start: 2336.92
  end: 2339.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Co-stander meaning standing along with the rest.
  zh: 共立者意味着与其他人一起站立。
- start: 2339.602
  end: 2346.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But still not allowed to the table until one is reconciled by the bishop.
  zh: 但在主教和好之前，仍然不允许参与圣餐。
- start: 2346.147
  end: 2358.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And sometimes that would even require a public confession of the sin, and then the laying on of hands, which is sort of almost like another confirmation, but not really.
  zh: 有时甚至需要公开认罪，然后按手，这有点像另一次坚振礼，但又不完全是。
- start: 2358.417
  end: 2359.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then the person is reconciled.
  zh: 然后这个人就和好了。
- start: 2359.538
  end: 2361.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, the whole thing could take over a decade.
  zh: 但再次强调，整个过程可能需要十多年。
- start: 2362.78
  end: 2375.97
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But notice,  If you were thinking to yourself, well, at least in the early church, the confessional prayer was sort of a unison prayer, and they didn't have private confession to a priest at the beginning.
  zh: 但请注意，如果你在想，好吧，至少在早期教会，忏悔祷告是一种齐声祷告，他们一开始没有向神父私下忏悔。
- start: 2376.41
  end: 2377.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, that's true.
  zh: 是的，这是真的。
- start: 2377.071
  end: 2381.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They had public confession to the whole assembly before you got reconciled.
  zh: 在你和好之前，他们有向整个会众公开认罪。
- start: 2386.547
  end: 2413.48
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, you've sort of been through this story, you remember how the confessors are called confessors because people would go to them, these are people who had confessed their faith at the risk of their own lives, but then other Christians who had failed in that test would go to them and confess that sin to them, and ask forgiveness from the very people who did not commit the sin that they had committed, right?
  zh: 所以再次说明，你已经了解了这个故事，你记得认信者之所以被称为认信者，是因为人们会去找他们，这些人冒着生命危险承认了自己的信仰，但那些在考验中失败的其他基督徒会去找他们，向他们认罪，并向那些没有犯他们所犯的罪的人请求宽恕，对吧？
- start: 2413.803
  end: 2428.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But we had that whole problem with the charismatic authority versus the hierarchical authority because the bishops, like Cyprian, were worried that if confessors, who are lay people, are out there absolving sins, they're not going to be able to control them.
  zh: 但我们遇到了灵恩权威与等级制权威之间的整个问题，因为像塞浦路斯这样的主教担心，如果认信者（他们是平信徒）在那里赦罪，他们就无法控制他们。
- start: 2428.809
  end: 2442.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So eventually, that right, that authority to forgive sins, was taken over by really the bishops, but then the authority was also extended to the priests.
  zh: 所以最终，那个权利，赦罪的权柄，真正被主教接管了，但后来这个权柄也延伸到了神父。
- start: 2442.655
  end: 2459.138
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And of course, that is  Based on the Matthew passage, Matthew 16, where Jesus gives the keys to Peter, and he says, you know, what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what you loose or release on earth will be released in heaven.
  zh: 当然，这是基于马太福音的经文，马太福音16章，耶稣把钥匙给了彼得，他说，你知道，凡你在地上所捆绑的，在天上也要捆绑；凡你在地上所释放的，在天上也要释放。
- start: 2459.138
  end: 2463.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is a reference to the forgiveness of sin or not.
  zh: 这是指赦罪与否。
- start: 2463.6
  end: 2471.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So to bind something is not to forgive the sin, the person is bound to it, they're stuck with it, it's on them.
  zh: 所以捆绑某事就是不赦免罪，那人被捆绑在罪上，他们被困在其中，这是他们的责任。
- start: 2471.762
  end: 2474.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To release it is to forgive the sin.
  zh: 释放就是赦免罪。
- start: 2474.252
  end: 2487.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, the church understood Jesus as having given that authority to Peter and indeed to the apostles, who then passed that authority down to the bishops and priests through apostolic succession.
  zh: 因此，教会理解耶稣将那权柄赐给了彼得，实际上也赐给了使徒们，然后他们通过使徒传承将这权柄传给了主教和神父。
- start: 2488.378
  end: 2511.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, ultimately what ends up happening is the priests fulfill the role of confessor, as in the one to whom you confess, and they also begin to take on  The role that we saw in both the confessors and in the ascetics, that role as spiritual director.
  zh: 所以，最终发生的是神父履行了认罪者的角色，就是你向其认罪的人，他们也开始承担我们在认信者和苦修者中看到的角色，那就是属灵导师的角色。
- start: 2511.238
  end: 2526.749
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So then they would receive the confession of the penitent and they would tell them what their penance was based on these penitential books or based on their own discernment, whatever.
  zh: 所以他们会接受忏悔者的认罪，然后根据这些忏悔书或根据他们自己的判断，告诉他们应该做什么补赎。
- start: 2528.984
  end: 2535.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember when we were talking about, in the context of Augustine and Donatism, we were talking about ecclesiology.
  zh: 记得我们在讨论奥古斯丁和多纳徒主义的背景下，我们谈到了教会论。
- start: 2535.187
  end: 2536.568
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What is the church?
  zh: 教会是什么？
- start: 2537.228
  end: 2543.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And one of the images for the church that we talked about was the church as hospital.
  zh: 我们讨论的教会的一个形象是教会作为医院。
- start: 2543.852
  end: 2551.976
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the church is not a country club for the perfected, rather the church is a hospital for the sick of soul.
  zh: 因为教会不是完美人的乡村俱乐部，而是心灵病人的医院。
- start: 2552.616
  end: 2558.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And if the church is a hospital, then the clergy are the doctors.
  zh: 如果教会是医院，那么神职人员就是医生。
- start: 2559.475
  end: 2569.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the medicine is the sacraments, but in this case specifically we're talking about confession, penance, reconciliation.
  zh: 而药物就是圣事，但在这种情况下，我们特指忏悔、补赎、和好。
- start: 2569.503
  end: 2573.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That is the medicine that the hospital prescribes.
  zh: 这就是医院开的药。
- start: 2578.911
  end: 2590.997
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The same traditions kind of develop in the West and the East independently, and we do have some of what we might consider excesses with  Self-flagellation.
  zh: 同样的传统在西方和东方独立发展，我们确实有一些可能被认为是过分的自我鞭笞。
- start: 2590.997
  end: 2593.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Make sure you spell this word right.
  zh: 确保你正确拼写这个词。
- start: 2594.199
  end: 2606.345
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, mortification of the flesh or literally beating or whipping oneself.
  zh: 换句话说，就是苦修肉体或字面上的自我鞭打。
- start: 2606.345
  end: 2614.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm sure if you saw, I think they  Focus on that a bit in one of those terrible Dan Brown movies.
  zh: 我确信如果你看过，我想他们在那些糟糕的丹·布朗电影中的一部里稍微关注了这一点。
- start: 2615.293
  end: 2624.039
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Or maybe your experience would be from the Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where the monks hit themselves in the head.
  zh: 或者你的经历可能来自《巨蟒与圣杯》，里面的僧侣们打自己的头。
- start: 2624.12
  end: 2625.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you get the idea.
  zh: 但你明白这个意思。
- start: 2625.04
  end: 2631.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, it becomes a matter of finding the happy medium between the extremes.
  zh: 再次说明，这变成了在极端之间寻找一个快乐中庸的问题。
- start: 2635.409
  end: 2637.41
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'll just mention this briefly.
  zh: 我只是简单提一下。
- start: 2638.044
  end: 2643.726
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There is another sacrament that evolves out of this, the sacrament of what used to be called last rites.
  zh: 还有另一个圣事从这里演变而来，就是过去被称为临终圣事的圣事。
- start: 2644.187
  end: 2654.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Last rites, or extreme unction, meaning like the final anointing.
  zh: 临终圣事，或终傅圣事，意思是最后的傅油。
- start: 2655.172
  end: 2661.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now it's simply called anointing of the sick because we don't wait until a person's on their deathbed to do it.
  zh: 现在它简单地被称为病人傅油，因为我们不等到一个人临终才做这个。
- start: 2661.634
  end: 2675.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the idea of the  Last Rites and the Extreme Unction evolves out of the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation because it would often include a last chance at confession.
  zh: 但临终圣事和终傅圣事的概念是从忏悔和和好圣事演变而来的，因为它通常包括最后一次忏悔的机会。
- start: 2676.828
  end: 2686.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But keep in mind that penance is never thought to earn salvation because anyone who's doing penance is already a Christian.
  zh: 但要记住，补赎从来不被认为是赚取救恩，因为任何做补赎的人已经是基督徒了。
- start: 2686.454
  end: 2688.695
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is not to earn salvation.
  zh: 这不是为了赚取救恩。
- start: 2688.715
  end: 2690.696
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Salvation is presupposed.
  zh: 救恩是预设的。
- start: 2691.052
  end: 2694.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Penance is the outward sign of repentance.
  zh: 补赎是悔改的外在标志。
- start: 2695.674
  end: 2712.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the other hand, since you can lose your salvation, and since post-baptismal sin is considered to be on you on some level, you could think of penance and reconciliation as a way to keep your salvation.
  zh: 另一方面，既然你可能失去救恩，而且洗礼后的罪在某种程度上被认为是你的责任，你可以将补赎和和好视为保持救恩的一种方式。
- start: 2712.723
  end: 2720.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's not to earn your salvation up front, but  There is the danger of losing salvation, and so this is the way to keep it.
  zh: 所以这不是为了预先赚取救恩，但有失去救恩的危险，所以这是保持救恩的方式。
- start: 2720.562
  end: 2722.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I guess that would be one way to think of it.
  zh: 我想这可能是一种理解方式。
- start: 2723.985
  end: 2735.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there is a sense in which the penance does work toward the forgiveness of sins.
  zh: 所以在某种意义上，补赎确实对罪的赦免有作用。
- start: 2736.352
  end: 2749.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But over time, the emphasis shifted from the repentance, the inward feeling, the inward regret for sin,  toward the penance, the outward act.
  zh: 但随着时间的推移，重点从悔改、内心的感受、对罪的内心悔恨转向了补赎，即外在的行为。
- start: 2749.133
  end: 2761.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you can see that in popular thought, over time, it was very easy for this concept to sort of degenerate into, you know, do this to make up for that.
  zh: 所以你可以看到，在普遍的思想中，随着时间的推移，这个概念很容易退化成，你知道，做这个来弥补那个。
- start: 2761.78
  end: 2777.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, some people felt like it was a license to sin, because if you already knew what the penance was going to be in, if you were okay with doing that, then you could sort of, you know,  Sin, knowing that you can just make up for it later.
  zh: 事实上，有些人觉得这是犯罪的许可证，因为如果你已经知道补赎会是什么，如果你对做那个没问题，那么你就可以，你知道，犯罪，知道你以后可以弥补。
- start: 2777.269
  end: 2791.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Which is obviously problematic, but it goes farther than that, because you probably know also that almsgiving has always been considered a form of penance.
  zh: 这显然是有问题的，但它比这更进一步，因为你可能也知道施舍一直被认为是一种补赎形式。
- start: 2791.439
  end: 2794.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, going back to the second century at least.
  zh: 再次说明，至少可以追溯到二世纪。
- start: 2795.202
  end: 2803.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's already in Clement, and it's in the Shepherd, and all over the place in the early writings.
  zh: 它已经出现在克莱门特的著作中，出现在《牧人书》中，在早期的著作中随处可见。
- start: 2803.126
  end: 2811.411
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: you will find almsgiving spoken of as a penance, even to the point of where it will say, almsgiving covers many sins.
  zh: 你会发现施舍被说成是一种补赎，甚至到了说「施舍遮盖许多罪」的程度。
- start: 2812.251
  end: 2826.98
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, if almsgiving is a penance, okay, fair enough, if I commit a sin, I confess it, the priest might tell me to give alms, to feed the hungry, give to the poor, put some money in the poor box at the church, right?
  zh: 所以，如果施舍是一种补赎，好吧，这很公平，如果我犯了罪，我认罪，神父可能会告诉我去施舍，去喂饱饥饿的人，给穷人，在教堂的施舍箱里放些钱，对吧？
- start: 2826.98
  end: 2834.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you can see where this goes, because it's a slippery slope from there to  By forgiveness.
  zh: 但你可以看到这会导向何处，因为从这里到买赎罪是一个滑坡。
- start: 2835.0
  end: 2841.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, if I can make a donation as a penance, if I can give to the hungry, why not give to the church?
  zh: 换句话说，如果我可以捐款作为补赎，如果我可以给饥饿的人，为什么不给教会呢？
- start: 2841.946
  end: 2855.898
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If I give to the church as a penance, then where the church is less scrupulous, it becomes very easy to see penance as a cash cop, you know what I'm saying?
  zh: 如果我给教会作为补赎，那么当教会不那么谨慎时，很容易将补赎视为一种敛财手段，你明白我的意思吗？
- start: 2856.357
  end: 2872.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that by the time we get to the Renaissance and they need to raise money for building projects in Rome, specifically in St. Peter's, one of the things that happens is they send out the salesmen out.
  zh: 所以到了文艺复兴时期，他们需要为罗马的建筑项目筹集资金，特别是圣彼得大教堂，发生的事情之一就是他们派出了推销员。
- start: 2872.269
  end: 2879.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Monks who are selling forgiveness in the form of indulgences.
  zh: 僧侣们以赎罪券的形式出售宽恕。
- start: 2879.554
  end: 2884.572
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: An indulgence is a  A certificate of forgiveness.
  zh: 赎罪券是一种宽恕的证书。
- start: 2884.572
  end: 2887.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, it's kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card, in a sense.
  zh: 我的意思是，从某种意义上说，它有点像免费出狱卡。
- start: 2887.714
  end: 2894.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But not only can you buy one for yourself, you can buy one for your relatives who are already passed on.
  zh: 但你不仅可以为自己买一张，还可以为已经去世的亲人买一张。
- start: 2895.7
  end: 2897.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'll talk about purgatory in a minute, but...
  zh: 我稍后会谈到炼狱，但是……
- start: 2899.362
  end: 2900.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, again, this is late.
  zh: 现在，再次说明，这是后期的事。
- start: 2900.683
  end: 2906.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is actually, you know, this is really kind of even too late for our time period in this course.
  zh: 这实际上，你知道，对于我们这门课程的时期来说甚至有点太晚了。
- start: 2906.167
  end: 2909.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I'm telling you this to set you up for history, too.
  zh: 但我告诉你这些也是为了让你为历史做准备。
- start: 2909.57
  end: 2925.968
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because one of the reasons  that Martin Luther objected to what the Catholic Church was doing at the time was that he saw all this money being funneled out of Germany and into Italy in the form of a sale of indulgences.
  zh: 因为马丁·路德反对当时公教会所做的事情的原因之一是，他看到所有这些钱以出售赎罪券的形式从德国流向意大利。
- start: 2926.688
  end: 2934.511
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, the story is that the indulgences sellers had a little jingle that they would sing as they walked through the countryside of Germany.
  zh: 你知道，据说赎罪券销售员有一个小口号，他们在德国乡间行走时会唱这个口号。
- start: 2934.871
  end: 2942.154
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the English translation is something like, as soon as the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs.
  zh: 英文翻译大概是这样的：「当钱币在钱箱中叮当作响，灵魂就从炼狱中跃出。」
- start: 2943.033
  end: 2953.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you're concerned about your dead relatives, who might not be making it into heaven, they might be in purgatory, you can buy an indulgence for them.
  zh: 所以如果你担心你已故的亲人可能没有进入天堂，他们可能在炼狱中，你可以为他们买一张赎罪券。
- start: 2953.961
  end: 2959.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then, you know, it's all going for a good cause, building St. Peter's or whatever it is.
  zh: 然后，你知道，这都是为了一个好的目的，建造圣彼得大教堂或其他什么。
- start: 2959.945
  end: 2964.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you can see why the Reformers had a problem with this.
  zh: 但你可以看到为什么改革者对此有问题。
- start: 2964.369
  end: 2969.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the whole thing had degenerated into selling salvation.
  zh: 因为整件事已经退化成出售救恩。
- start: 2973.228
  end: 2997.256
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It got to the point where if I lived in the late Middle Ages and I was rich, I could create an endowment where I gave a large sum of money and instructed my parish priest to say Mass for my soul every day after I die.
  zh: 事情发展到这种程度：如果我生活在中世纪晚期并且很富有，我可以创建一个捐赠基金，给一大笔钱并指示我的本堂神父在我死后每天为我的灵魂做弥撒。
- start: 2998.098
  end: 3000.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, just to be on the safe side.
  zh: 所以，这只是为了以防万一。
- start: 3000.68
  end: 3013.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, you get situations where so many people are buying Masses to be said for the souls of the dead, that the priests are just saying, Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass, Mass, just one right after the other.
  zh: 所以，你会看到这样的情况：很多人都在购买为死者灵魂做的弥撒，以至于神父们只是在不停地做弥撒，一个接一个。
- start: 3013.571
  end: 3014.211
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nobody's there.
  zh: 没有人在场。
- start: 3014.211
  end: 3016.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It just becomes this thing.
  zh: 它就变成了这样一种东西。
- start: 3017.254
  end: 3021.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so again, the Reformers are going to feel like that's cheapening the whole thing, right?
  zh: 所以再次说明，改革者会觉得这是在贬低整件事，对吧？
- start: 3021.537
  end: 3024.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you can imagine why they would think that.
  zh: 你可以想象为什么他们会这么想。
- start: 3025.1
  end: 3041.868
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so,  Now, before you think that's totally crazy, don't forget that there is a text, we skip over it, but there is a text in 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul says something about baptism for the dead.
  zh: 所以，现在，在你认为这完全疯狂之前，别忘了有一段经文，我们跳过了它，但在哥林多前书15章中有一段经文，保罗说了一些关于为死人受洗的事。
- start: 3042.888
  end: 3049.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I don't claim to know exactly what that's all about, but the point is that there is such a thing as vicarious faith.
  zh: 现在，我不敢说我确切知道那是怎么回事，但重点是确实存在这样的事情，叫做代理信仰。
- start: 3049.99
  end: 3065.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words,  I wouldn't want to dismiss this completely, this idea that the faith of one person can be effective for another, because after all, if we baptize infants, that's what we're doing.
  zh: 换句话说，我不想完全否定这个观点，即一个人的信仰可以对另一个人有效，因为毕竟，如果我们给婴儿施洗，我们就是在这么做。
- start: 3065.862
  end: 3071.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're baptizing an infant on the basis of the faith of his or her parents or God's parents.
  zh: 我们是基于婴儿父母或教父母的信仰给婴儿施洗。
- start: 3071.467
  end: 3073.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's by serious faith.
  zh: 这是通过严肃的信仰。
- start: 3073.148
  end: 3076.03
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The faith of one person standing in for somebody else.
  zh: 一个人的信仰代表另一个人。
- start: 3076.631
  end: 3093.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At any rate, eventually,  The Feast of All Souls Day will emerge, which is a feast for remembering the souls in purgatory.
  zh: 无论如何，最终，诸灵节会出现，这是一个纪念炼狱中灵魂的节日。
- start: 3093.409
  end: 3094.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, what's purgatory?
  zh: 现在，什么是炼狱？
- start: 3094.87
  end: 3098.732
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let's take a couple minutes to talk about purgatory.
  zh: 让我们花几分钟谈谈炼狱。
- start: 3102.516
  end: 3112.451
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: First of all, there are several passages of Scripture that appear to  Speak about something that at least gets interpreted as purgatory.
  zh: 首先，有几段经文似乎谈到了一些至少被解释为炼狱的东西。
- start: 3112.451
  end: 3118.956
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm thinking of 1 Corinthians 3, 13-15. If anyone's works are burned up, he will still be saved, but his works are burned up.
  zh: 我想到的是哥林多前书3章13-15节。如果人的工程被烧毁了，他仍然得救，但他的工程被烧毁了。
- start: 3129.068
  end: 3137.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: 1 Corinthians 3, 1 Peter 1.7, I'm blanking on what that says, but write it down and look at it later.
  zh: 哥林多前书3章，彼得前书1章7节，我现在想不起来它说的是什么，但把它记下来以后再看。
- start: 3137.453
  end: 3156.065
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Matthew 3.11, Luke 3.16. There are some things in the Deuterocanonical books, Wisdom chapter 3, Sirach chapter 2. But it all goes back to this idea of fire as an image of purification.
  zh: 马太福音3章11节，路加福音3章16节。在次经书中也有一些内容，智慧书第3章，德训篇第2章。但这一切都回到了火作为净化象征的这个观念。
- start: 3157.366
  end: 3159.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Fire as an image of purification.
  zh: 火作为净化的象征。
- start: 3160.828
  end: 3176.256
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you know that this is in the Psalms, you know, the imagery of gold refined in the fire, you know how that works if you have gold that's got impurities in it, you put it over the fire, you melt it, the impurities float to the top, you skim off the impurities, you do this all the time, right?
  zh: 你知道这在诗篇中出现过，你知道，金子在火中精炼的比喻，你知道如果你有含有杂质的金子，你把它放在火上，熔化它，杂质浮到表面，你把杂质撇去，你一直这样做，对吧？
- start: 3176.296
  end: 3181.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Anyway, then you purify the gold by melting it.
  zh: 总之，然后你通过熔化来净化金子。
- start: 3181.359
  end: 3185.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So in other words, gold is purified  by fire.
  zh: 换句话说，金子是通过火来净化的。
- start: 3185.515
  end: 3190.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this becomes an image for how we as human beings are purified.
  zh: 这成为我们人类如何被净化的一个象征。
- start: 3190.457
  end: 3195.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not necessarily that the fire is literal, but fire is an image of purification.
  zh: 不一定是说火是字面意义上的，但火是净化的象征。
- start: 3195.58
  end: 3209.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I haven't really done a study on this, but my sense is that if you were to take the whole range of Scripture, fire is an image of purification more than it's an image of destruction.
  zh: 我没有真正研究过这个，但我的感觉是，如果你考虑整个圣经的范围，火作为净化的象征比作为毁灭的象征更多。
- start: 3210.483
  end: 3221.247
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Even to the point where some of the things that we might think about as talking about hell are not talking necessarily about destruction as much as they are about purification.
  zh: 甚至到了这种程度，我们可能认为在谈论地狱的一些事情，实际上并不一定是在谈论毁灭，而更多是在谈论净化。
- start: 3221.247
  end: 3225.729
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the idea of purgatory comes from this idea of purging.
  zh: 所以炼狱的概念来自于这种净化的想法。
- start: 3225.729
  end: 3229.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It comes from this idea of purification.
  zh: 它来自于这种净化的概念。
- start: 3232.756
  end: 3241.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You probably also have a sense of the old school, medieval or more pre-modern understanding of purgatory.
  zh: 你可能也了解旧式的、中世纪或更前现代的对炼狱的理解。
- start: 3241.8
  end: 3253.545
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To be honest, a lot of people still look at it this way, and that is that if you die and your sins aren't all made up for by penance, then you can't get into heaven.
  zh: 老实说，很多人仍然这样看待它，就是如果你死了，而你的罪没有全部通过补赎弥补，那么你就不能进入天堂。
- start: 3253.545
  end: 3263.371
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You have to do time in purgatory so that there's a length of time that's prescribed for you  where you'll be in fiery torment, like hell, but it's only temporary.
  zh: 你必须在炼狱中度过一段时间，这段时间是为你规定的，你将在火热的折磨中，就像地狱一样，但这只是暂时的。
- start: 3263.411
  end: 3266.492
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Although it might last a thousand years, it's only temporary.
  zh: 虽然可能会持续一千年，但这只是暂时的。
- start: 3266.793
  end: 3269.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that is kind of the old school way of looking at it.
  zh: 这就是看待它的旧式方式。
- start: 3270.734
  end: 3284.022
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, most recently, the current Pope, Benedict XVI, wrote in his encyclical, God is Love, he took this little aside  And he says something brilliant about purgatory.
  zh: 事实上，最近，现任教宗本笃十六世在他的通谕《神是爱》中写道，他稍微岔开话题，说了一些关于炼狱的精彩见解。
- start: 3284.022
  end: 3296.589
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He basically says, you know, look, you have to look at it not as having anything to do with time, because once one is outside the created realm, one is outside of time.
  zh: 他基本上是说，你知道，看，你必须不把它看作与时间有任何关系，因为一旦一个人在被造界之外，就在时间之外。
- start: 3296.589
  end: 3299.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Time is meaningless outside the realm of creation.
  zh: 在创造界之外，时间是没有意义的。
- start: 3299.891
  end: 3302.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not about time, but it's about purification.
  zh: 这不是关于时间，而是关于净化。
- start: 3302.772
  end: 3310.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the same way that in the Old Testament, if a person  sinned or touched a dead body or whatever it was.
  zh: 就像在旧约中，如果一个人犯罪或触摸死尸或其他什么。
- start: 3310.531
  end: 3313.332
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There were reasons, there were things that made you unclean.
  zh: 有原因，有一些事情使你不洁净。
- start: 3313.992
  end: 3322.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in order to approach God in the temple, you had to go through a purification process that might require a ritual bath or something like that.
  zh: 为了在圣殿中亲近神，你必须经过一个净化过程，可能需要进行仪式性的沐浴或类似的事情。
- start: 3322.275
  end: 3325.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it's that idea extrapolated to the afterlife.
  zh: 所以这个想法被推广到了来世。
- start: 3325.936
  end: 3329.437
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So we may be, we're not perfect.
  zh: 所以我们可能，我们不是完美的。
- start: 3329.977
  end: 3330.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Very few of us are.
  zh: 我们中很少有人是完美的。
- start: 3330.837
  end: 3334.419
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I was gonna say none of us are, but I won't presume to know that.
  zh: 我本想说我们都不是完美的，但我不敢妄下定论。
- start: 3334.419
  end: 3336.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Very few of us are perfect.
  zh: 我们中很少有人是完美的。
- start: 3337.032
  end: 3341.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When we die, we are, in a sense, unclean and we need to be purified.
  zh: 当我们死的时候，从某种意义上说，我们是不洁的，需要被净化。
- start: 3341.014
  end: 3356.062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the idea is that before we can approach the presence of God in the heavenly realm, we go through a purgation, a purification, where fire is symbolic of purification.
  zh: 所以这个想法是，在我们能够在天国中亲近神之前，我们要经历一个净化过程，其中火象征着净化。
- start: 3356.502
  end: 3357.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's all I know.
  zh: 这就是我所知道的全部。
- start: 3357.823
  end: 3368.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I wanted to throw that out there as what I consider  A better way to look at purgatory than the old school way.
  zh: 但我想提出这一点，因为我认为这是一种比旧式方式更好的看待炼狱的方式。
- start: 3369.451
  end: 3380.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, you know, feel free to look up those passages and see if you think that that can be interpreted in having anything to do with purgatory.
  zh: 但是，你知道，请随意查阅那些经文，看看你是否认为它们可以被解释为与炼狱有任何关系。
- start: 3381.257
  end: 3382.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3382.798
  end: 3383.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Good.
  zh: 很好。
- start: 3384.099
  end: 3386.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Questions about that stuff?
  zh: 对这些有什么问题吗？
- start: 3387.34
  end: 3390.062
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We have one more topic to cover in the next 20 minutes.
  zh: 我们在接下来的20分钟内还有一个话题要讨论。
- start: 3391.783
  end: 3393.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: No? Alright.
  zh: 没有吗？好的。
- start: 3393.784
  end: 3394.584
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3395.173
  end: 3397.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now I'm going to talk about icons.
  zh: 现在我要谈谈圣像。
- start: 3398.594
  end: 3411.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One of the things I meant to say earlier that I didn't, when we were talking about relics, is that it's easy for the modern mind to start asking questions.
  zh: 我之前想说但没说的一件事是，当我们谈论圣物时，现代人很容易开始提出问题。
- start: 3411.137
  end: 3416.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For example, with the skull of St. Valentine, is this really the skull of St. Valentine?
  zh: 例如，关于圣瓦伦丁的头骨，这真的是圣瓦伦丁的头骨吗？
- start: 3416.979
  end: 3420.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Never mind the fact that there were probably three St. Valentines.
  zh: 别管可能有三个圣瓦伦丁这个事实了。
- start: 3421.62
  end: 3431.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Is this really a 3rd century  It's easy to go down that road, but I would suggest that that's not helpful.
  zh: 这真的是3世纪的……很容易走这条路，但我建议这并不有帮助。
- start: 3431.425
  end: 3439.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I would suggest that it's more helpful to think of relics as icons, and so now we're going to talk about icons.
  zh: 我建议将圣物视为圣像更有帮助，所以现在我们要谈谈圣像。
- start: 3439.431
  end: 3440.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what's an icon?
  zh: 那么什么是圣像？
- start: 3440.391
  end: 3459.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, from the beginning of the church,  I guess it's hard to say the beginning because we don't have very much in terms of artistic representations that remain from the early centuries of the church.
  zh: 嗯，从教会的开始……我想很难说是开始，因为我们没有太多来自教会早期几个世纪的艺术表现形式保存下来。
- start: 3459.365
  end: 3466.327
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The earliest artistic representations of Christian faith are in the catacombs.
  zh: 基督教信仰最早的艺术表现形式在地下墓穴中。
- start: 3467.935
  end: 3478.601
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: From the 2nd and 3rd centuries, you have carvings on sarcophagi mostly depicting Bible stories, Jesus raising Lazarus, stuff like that.
  zh: 从2世纪和3世纪开始，你在石棺上看到雕刻，主要描绘圣经故事，耶稣使拉撒路复活，诸如此类的内容。
- start: 3479.502
  end: 3487.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: By the way, if you want to see pictures of this stuff, go on my website, romsic.org.
  zh: 顺便说一下，如果你想看这些东西的图片，可以去我的网站romsic.org。
- start: 3487.667
  end: 3491.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then there's some wall paintings.
  zh: 然后还有一些壁画。
- start: 3495.051
  end: 3514.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: With, again, imagery, there's one very famous wall painting of Mary and the baby Jesus, but other than that, it's a lot of symbols and depictions of Bible stories, pictures of loaves and fish, which were not only a reminder of the feeding of the multitudes in the Gospels, but were a Eucharistic symbol.
  zh: 再次说明，有一幅非常著名的马利亚和婴儿耶稣的壁画，但除此之外，还有很多象征和圣经故事的描绘，面包和鱼的图画，这不仅是对福音书中喂饱众人的提醒，也是圣餐的象征。
- start: 3515.68
  end: 3518.141
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you have these things early on.
  zh: 所以你在早期就有这些东西。
- start: 3518.74
  end: 3537.667
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then, you know, really not until like the fifth century that we get artistic representations of the crucifixion and the cross, etc. But the point is this, that, you know, from the beginning, icons are considered kind of like the poor man's Bible.
  zh: 然后，你知道，直到大约5世纪我们才有了十字架和耶稣受难的艺术表现等。但重点是，你知道，从一开始，圣像就被认为是穷人的圣经。
- start: 3537.967
  end: 3546.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, when not everyone was literate, they could be reminded of the Bible stories from the pictures.
  zh: 你知道，当不是每个人都识字时，他们可以从图画中被提醒圣经故事。
- start: 3546.37
  end: 3550.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They would have heard the Bible stories  in liturgy.
  zh: 他们会在礼仪中听到圣经故事。
- start: 3550.818
  end: 3556.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then the pictures were not, you know, like cartoons, like with panels, you know, acting out the story.
  zh: 然后这些图画不是，你知道，像漫画那样，有一格一格的，你知道，演绎故事。
- start: 3556.542
  end: 3562.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, you know, a single image that was sort of meant to be a vignette that reminded you of the whole story.
  zh: 但是，你知道，一个单独的图像就是为了作为一个小插图，让你想起整个故事。
- start: 3562.907
  end: 3566.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it's exactly the same with stained glass windows later.
  zh: 后来的彩色玻璃窗也完全一样。
- start: 3566.869
  end: 3573.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: People could be reminded of the stories from the Gospel, the stories of Jesus.
  zh: 人们可以被提醒福音书中的故事，耶稣的故事。
- start: 3574.054
  end: 3582.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They could express their devotion to God and Christ  through these images, through these icons.
  zh: 他们可以通过这些图像，通过这些圣像表达他们对神和基督的虔诚。
- start: 3582.926
  end: 3585.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So icons are not just paintings.
  zh: 所以圣像不仅仅是绘画。
- start: 3585.627
  end: 3599.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I know when I say the word icon, you probably automatically think of the very stylized icons of the Eastern Church, which certainly you should think of that, but that's not the way it was at the beginning.
  zh: 我知道当我说圣像这个词时，你可能会自动想到东方教会那些非常程式化的圣像，当然你应该想到那些，但一开始并不是那样的。
- start: 3600.736
  end: 3620.122
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Icons can be paintings, they can be sculptures, they can be  If you immediately think that icons are an Eastern phenomenon, they're really not.
  zh: 圣像可以是绘画，可以是雕塑，可以是……如果你立即认为圣像是东方现象，它们实际上不是。
- start: 3620.122
  end: 3622.083
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're universal at the beginning of the Church.
  zh: 在教会初期，它们是普遍存在的。
- start: 3622.083
  end: 3662.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, if you look at the earliest Christian art in the West, it looks  What about the prohibition against  What about the commandment that says you're not supposed to make graven images?
  zh: 事实上，如果你看西方最早的基督教艺术，它看起来……那禁止……那条说你不应该制作雕刻偶像的诫命怎么说？
- start: 3662.443
  end: 3668.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Are icons images in an idolatrous sense?
  zh: 圣像在偶像崇拜的意义上是图像吗？
- start: 3668.505
  end: 3675.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because we're told in the Ten Commandments we're not to make graven images and worship them.
  zh: 因为十诫告诉我们不要制作雕刻的偶像并崇拜它们。
- start: 3675.728
  end: 3679.649
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the other hand, Moses makes an icon of a serpent.
  zh: 另一方面，摩西制作了一个蛇的像。
- start: 3680.279
  end: 3692.884
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that, of course, you see where this is going in the typology of the early church, that serpent on the pole becomes a type of the cross.
  zh: 当然，你看到这在早期教会的预表论中的发展方向，那杆子上的蛇成为十字架的一种预表。
- start: 3693.305
  end: 3714.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But anyway, the problem is, I'll just foreshadow it a little bit, when you get into the later Protestant Reformation, you will hear about certain radical reformers going around  smashing images, painting over paintings.
  zh: 但无论如何，问题是，我只是稍微预示一下，当你进入后来的新教改革时，你会听到某些激进的改革者到处砸毁图像，涂抹绘画。
- start: 3714.241
  end: 3721.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To this day, there are certain denominations within Christianity that don't have any art in their churches.
  zh: 直到今天，基督教中某些宗派的教堂里没有任何艺术品。
- start: 3721.123
  end: 3737.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You go into the church and it's all white because they don't believe in graphic depictions because they're guarding themselves against breaking the commandment against images.
  zh: 你进入教堂，看到全是白色的，因为他们不相信图像描绘，因为他们在防止自己违反反对偶像的诫命。
- start: 3737.488
  end: 3753.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It really becomes an issue  When the Eastern Church comes into contact with Islam, because the Muslims are very serious about not having images, and about keeping that commandment.
  zh: 当东方教会与伊斯兰教接触时，这真的成为一个问题，因为穆斯林对不使用图像和遵守那条诫命非常严肃。
- start: 3754.074
  end: 3769.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so there were certain ways in which Islam critiqued Christianity in the early centuries by saying, you know, you Christians, you claim to base your faith on the Old Testament, but we're keeping the Old Testament better than you are.
  zh: 所以在早期几个世纪，伊斯兰教以某些方式批评基督教，说，你们基督徒，你们声称你们的信仰基于旧约，但我们比你们更好地遵守旧约。
- start: 3769.847
  end: 3775.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so some eastern Christians found themselves embarrassed by their use of icons.
  zh: 因此一些东方基督徒发现自己因使用圣像而感到尴尬。
- start: 3776.393
  end: 3784.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so in the 8th century, the eastern emperor issued an edict against icons.
  zh: 所以在8世纪，东方皇帝颁布了反对圣像的法令。
- start: 3784.94
  end: 3789.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now notice, this is not coming from the church, this is coming from the emperor.
  zh: 现在注意，这不是来自教会，而是来自皇帝。
- start: 3790.385
  end: 3800.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so what we call the icon controversy, or the iconoclast controversy,  is in the 8th and 9th centuries.
  zh: 所以我们所说的圣像争议，或者说圣像破坏争议，是在8世纪和9世纪。
- start: 3801.781
  end: 3808.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let's see here.
  zh: 让我们看看这里。
- start: 3808.046
  end: 3809.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The 8th and 9th centuries.
  zh: 8世纪和9世纪。
- start: 3810.428
  end: 3822.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And again, you know, when I say the word icon, if you think of that sort of Eastern stylized imagery, you might automatically think that icons are an Eastern thing.
  zh: 再次说明，你知道，当我说圣像这个词时，如果你想到那种东方程式化的图像，你可能会自动认为圣像是东方的东西。
- start: 3822.477
  end: 3833.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if I say to you, well we're going to talk about the iconoclast controversy,  When you see this, this suffix class means somebody was against something.
  zh: 所以如果我对你说，我们要讨论圣像破坏争议，当你看到这个，这个后缀「clast」意味着某人反对某事。
- start: 3833.924
  end: 3838.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So an iconoclast is someone who is against icons.
  zh: 所以圣像破坏者是反对圣像的人。
- start: 3839.505
  end: 3843.186
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you might be tempted to think at the beginning, oh, I know where this is going.
  zh: 你一开始可能会想，哦，我知道这要说什么了。
- start: 3843.186
  end: 3847.208
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Western church was against icons and the Eastern church was in favor of it.
  zh: 西方教会反对圣像，而东方教会支持圣像。
- start: 3847.668
  end: 3849.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In reality, it was kind of the other way around.
  zh: 实际上，情况恰恰相反。
- start: 3849.709
  end: 3857.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Although, even in the East, again, it is the emperor who issues an edict against icons.
  zh: 虽然，即使在东方，再次强调，是皇帝颁布了反对圣像的法令。
- start: 3860.098
  end: 3871.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The height of the controversy is like 726 to 842. I'm not going to worry too much about a lot of the details of this controversy.
  zh: 争议的高峰期大约是726年到842年。我不会过多关注这场争议的许多细节。
- start: 3873.464
  end: 3883.228
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what I want you to see is that we have a situation where the Emperor in the East makes icons basically illegal.
  zh: 但我想让你们看到的是，我们有这样一种情况，东方的皇帝基本上使圣像成为非法的。
- start: 3884.609
  end: 3888.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the West, the Bishop of Rome says, whoa, wait a second.
  zh: 在西方，罗马主教说，哇，等一下。
- start: 3889.065
  end: 3889.866
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Icons are good.
  zh: 圣像是好的。
- start: 3889.866
  end: 3892.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We need icons.
  zh: 我们需要圣像。
- start: 3892.988
  end: 3901.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so now you have a situation where there's a lot of Greek folks in southern Italy.
  zh: 所以现在你有这样一种情况，在南意大利有很多希腊人。
- start: 3901.494
  end: 3907.698
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Southern Italy was a place where a lot of the Greeks emigrated to.
  zh: 南意大利是许多希腊人移民的地方。
- start: 3908.639
  end: 3916.204
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the question becomes, well, do we follow our emperor in the east or do we follow the bishop of Rome?
  zh: 所以问题变成了，我们是跟随东方的皇帝还是跟随罗马的主教？
- start: 3916.477
  end: 3920.619
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we actually have riots breaking out in southern Italy.
  zh: 实际上，我们在南意大利发生了骚乱。
- start: 3921.6
  end: 3933.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And eventually, an empress named Irene, if you know Greek, Irene in peace, right?
  zh: 最终，一位名叫艾琳的女皇，如果你懂希腊语，艾琳意味着和平，对吧？
- start: 3933.968
  end: 3939.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Empress Irene calls a council, an ecumenical council.
  zh: 艾琳皇后召集了一次会议，一次大公会议。
- start: 3939.852
  end: 3943.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We've looked at the first four ecumenical councils, right?
  zh: 我们已经看过前四次大公会议了，对吧？
- start: 3943.014
  end: 3945.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, we're skipping a few, because this is the seventh.
  zh: 好吧，我们跳过了几个，因为这是第七次。
- start: 3946.119
  end: 3973.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's held in the city of Nicaea, where we had the first Ecumenical Council, so this is the second Council of Nicaea, or Nicaea II, but it's the seventh Ecumenical Council, and here is 787.  Yes, question.
  zh: 它在尼西亚城举行，就是我们举行第一次大公会议的地方，所以这是第二次尼西亚会议，或称尼西亚二世，但它是第七次大公会议，时间是787年。是的，有问题吗？
- start: 3973.876
  end: 3975.676
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I know I saw you earlier, but I wanted to go ahead.
  zh: 我知道我之前看到你了，但我想继续。
- start: 3975.676
  end: 3976.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's a good question.
  zh: 这是个好问题。
- start: 3976.597
  end: 3977.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yes and no.
  zh: 是也不是。
- start: 3977.737
  end: 3982.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, the icon doesn't have necessarily a body part of the martyr.
  zh: 我的意思是，圣像不一定包含殉道者的身体部位。
- start: 3998.14
  end: 4011.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if an icon is a depiction of a particular martyr, some did believe that the martyr was present in some mystical sense.
  zh: 但如果一个圣像描绘的是某个特定的殉道者，一些人确实相信殉道者以某种神秘的方式存在其中。
- start: 4011.44
  end: 4025.716
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so even to this day, if you go into a Greek Orthodox church,  For example, you might see an icon in the end of your way to the church, and it's interesting to watch the different reactions to the icon by the people coming in.
  zh: 所以即使到今天，如果你进入一个希腊东正教教堂，例如，你可能会在进入教堂的路上看到一个圣像，观察进来的人对圣像的不同反应很有趣。
- start: 4025.716
  end: 4032.32
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some people will nod to it, some people will, you know, cross themselves, touch it, some people will literally bend down and kiss it.
  zh: 有些人会向它点头，有些人会，你知道，画十字，触摸它，有些人会真的弯下腰亲吻它。
- start: 4033.201
  end: 4035.203
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, you know, there's different beliefs about that.
  zh: 所以，你知道，对此有不同的信仰。
- start: 4035.203
  end: 4042.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it isn't quite the same as a relic, but it's in the same ballpark, if that's a good question.
  zh: 所以它不完全等同于圣物，但在同一个范畴内，如果这是个好问题的话。
- start: 4042.788
  end: 4046.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so,  The bottom line is this.
  zh: 好的，所以，底线是这样的。
- start: 4046.2
  end: 4048.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I know we're due for a break pretty soon.
  zh: 我知道我们很快就要休息了。
- start: 4048.501
  end: 4051.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The bottom line is this.
  zh: 底线是这样的。
- start: 4053.265
  end: 4062.793
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The results of the Council determine what you can and cannot do with or toward an icon.
  zh: 会议的结果决定了你可以和不可以对圣像做什么。
- start: 4064.014
  end: 4066.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the decision was this.
  zh: 所以，决定是这样的。
- start: 4066.436
  end: 4071.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That it is appropriate to venerate an icon.
  zh: 敬奉圣像是适当的。
- start: 4071.9
  end: 4081.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To venerate an icon is  To honor or to show reverence to the icon.
  zh: 敬奉圣像就是尊敬或表示对圣像的崇敬。
- start: 4085.997
  end: 4091.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it is not appropriate to worship the icon, because that would be idolatry.
  zh: 但崇拜圣像是不适当的，因为那将是偶像崇拜。
- start: 4093.259
  end: 4100.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And again, the difference here is whether or not the icon is an end in itself or a means to an end.
  zh: 再次说明，这里的区别在于圣像是否是目的本身，还是达到目的的手段。
- start: 4100.704
  end: 4112.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you worshipped an icon, you would be saying that the icon is an end in itself, that it is an object of worship, that that's it, that your devotion is directed at the icon, and that's it.
  zh: 如果你崇拜一个圣像，你就是在说这个圣像本身就是目的，它是崇拜的对象，就是这样，你的虔诚直接指向这个圣像，就是这样。
- start: 4112.733
  end: 4119.497
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To venerate an icon is to say it is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end.
  zh: 敬奉圣像是说它不是目的本身，它是达到目的的手段。
- start: 4119.497
  end: 4133.97
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it is not that the devotion is directed at the icon per se, but that it is directed through the icon to either the subject of the icon, if the subject is Christ, or ultimately to Christ and to God.
  zh: 所以虔诚并不是直接指向圣像本身，而是通过圣像指向圣像的主题，如果主题是基督，或最终指向基督和神。
- start: 4133.97
  end: 4139.214
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the icon becomes a kind of a window into the spiritual realm.
  zh: 所以圣像成为一种通向灵界的窗口。
- start: 4139.555
  end: 4150.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now again, just like with the prayer to the saints and these other traditions, these are ancient traditions that go back to the beginning of the Church, but they evolve  and they evolve sometimes in multiple directions.
  zh: 现在再次说明，就像向圣徒祷告和其他这些传统一样，这些都是可以追溯到教会初期的古老传统，但它们在演变，有时会向多个方向演变。
- start: 4150.886
  end: 4166.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what I'm telling you here is supposed to be the ideal, but you wouldn't have to look very far to find some people who don't really get the distinction between venerate and worship, and in their personal or private devotion, maybe cross the line.
  zh: 所以我在这里告诉你的应该是理想状态，但你不用看很远就能找到一些人，他们并不真正理解敬奉和崇拜之间的区别，在他们个人或私下的虔诚中，可能会越界。
- start: 4166.729
  end: 4168.309
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you get the idea.
  zh: 但你明白这个意思。
- start: 4170.43
  end: 4186.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The controversy doesn't end after Nicaea II. It comes back, and eventually another empress, Theodora,  It took the women in the imperial household to fix this.
  zh: 尼西亚二世之后争议并没有结束。它又回来了，最终另一位女皇西奥多拉……是皇室中的女性解决了这个问题。
- start: 4188.027
  end: 4202.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What we're getting at here is that when we say people use icons as a part of their devotion,  Again, they are not the object of devotion.
  zh: 我们在这里要说的是，当我们说人们使用圣像作为他们虔诚的一部分时，再次强调，圣像不是虔诚的对象。
- start: 4204.229
  end: 4215.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: People who use icons as a part of their devotion, if they're doing it right, are looking not to the icon, but through the icon, to the spiritual reality that it represents.
  zh: 如果人们正确地使用圣像作为他们虔诚的一部分，他们看的不是圣像本身，而是通过圣像看到它所代表的属灵现实。
- start: 4216.234
  end: 4224.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They don't adore or worship the icon, that would be idolatry, but they do reverence  or venerate the icon.
  zh: 他们不崇拜或敬拜圣像，那将是偶像崇拜，但他们确实尊敬或敬奉圣像。
- start: 4224.648
  end: 4228.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And again, this is that same kind of honor that we're talking about, showing honor to it.
  zh: 再次说明，这就是我们所说的那种尊敬，向它表示敬意。
- start: 4228.91
  end: 4233.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But ultimately, the point is that it is not an end in itself.
  zh: 但最终，重点是它本身不是目的。
- start: 4233.472
  end: 4234.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a means to an end.
  zh: 它是达到目的的手段。
- start: 4241.996
  end: 4259.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, the icons, you know, when I say icon, the icons that you may think of are those very stylized Byzantine or Eastern icons that generally have like a  Certain colors, a very stylized depiction of a saint or Jesus or Mary, gold around that.
  zh: 现在，你知道，当我说圣像时，你可能想到的圣像是那些非常程式化的拜占庭或东方圣像，它们通常有某些特定的颜色，非常程式化地描绘圣徒、耶稣或马利亚，周围有金色。
- start: 4259.905
  end: 4265.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And actually all of those things are symbolic.
  zh: 实际上，所有这些都是象征性的。
- start: 4265.566
  end: 4272.748
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And official icons, there's a certain way to make them, so it's actually regulated.
  zh: 对于正式的圣像，有特定的制作方式，所以它实际上是受到规范的。
- start: 4272.748
  end: 4275.288
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, not just anybody can make a real icon.
  zh: 我的意思是，不是任何人都能制作真正的圣像。
- start: 4275.288
  end: 4277.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You have to train to do it.
  zh: 你必须接受训练才能做到。
- start: 4278.289
  end: 4280.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the colors have symbolism.
  zh: 但这些颜色都有象征意义。
- start: 4282.579
  end: 4291.546
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when you see the colors, the color red either symbolizes blood and then the person, the martyr, or it symbolizes divinity.
  zh: 所以当你看到这些颜色时，红色要么象征血和人，即殉道者，要么象征神性。
- start: 4291.766
  end: 4293.968
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The color blue symbolizes holiness.
  zh: 蓝色象征圣洁。
- start: 4293.968
  end: 4297.95
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, often Mary is shown wearing blue.
  zh: 我的意思是，马利亚经常被描绘成穿蓝色衣服。
- start: 4298.771
  end: 4302.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The color gold, obviously heaven, glory, that sort of thing.
  zh: 金色显然代表天堂、荣耀，诸如此类的东西。
- start: 4303.955
  end: 4307.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There are certain conventions that icon makers have to follow.
  zh: 圣像制作者必须遵循某些惯例。
- start: 4307.918
  end: 4310.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Noses have to be straight and narrow.
  zh: 鼻子必须又直又窄。
- start: 4310.731
  end: 4311.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 4311.872
  end: 4315.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the path to God is a straight and narrow path, right?
  zh: 因为通往神的道路是又直又窄的，对吧？
- start: 4316.454
  end: 4321.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you depict Christ, you have to show Christ with his hair parted.
  zh: 如果你描绘基督，你必须画出基督的头发分开。
- start: 4322.018
  end: 4322.778
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 4322.778
  end: 4326.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the two natures, humanity and divinity.
  zh: 因为两种本性，人性和神性。
- start: 4328.802
  end: 4334.305
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The blessings with the three fingers showing the Trinity, things like that.
  zh: 用三根手指表示三位一体的祝福，诸如此类的事情。
- start: 4334.305
  end: 4340.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there's very specific conventions that one would have to follow if one makes  An icon.
  zh: 所以如果一个人制作圣像，就必须遵循非常具体的惯例。
- start: 4340.339
  end: 4352.484
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But part of the reason that they're very stylized, and this is the point, I think, that is that they're meant to be very stylized, and some of them seem almost cartoony, right?
  zh: 但它们非常程式化的部分原因，我认为这就是重点，是它们本来就应该非常程式化，有些看起来几乎像卡通，对吧？
- start: 4353.124
  end: 4356.826
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're meant to be that way so that they don't look too realistic.
  zh: 它们被设计成那样是为了不让它们看起来太逼真。
- start: 4356.966
  end: 4359.687
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You would never want an icon that looks like a photograph.
  zh: 你永远不会想要一个看起来像照片的圣像。
- start: 4359.707
  end: 4365.99
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because if it's too realistic, it might tempt you to worship the icon, not to look past it.
  zh: 因为如果它太逼真，可能会诱使你崇拜圣像，而不是看透它。
- start: 4369.781
  end: 4377.263
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fact, in the Eastern Church, icons have to be two-dimensional.
  zh: 事实上，在东方教会，圣像必须是二维的。
- start: 4377.823
  end: 4386.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you won't see statues in Greek Orthodox churches, because that's too close to being an idol.
  zh: 所以你在希腊东正教教堂里看不到雕像，因为那太接近偶像了。
- start: 4386.125
  end: 4388.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So in the East, an icon has to be two-dimensional.
  zh: 所以在东方，圣像必须是二维的。
- start: 4388.965
  end: 4396.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, to keep it front of mind that this is a symbol of something greater.
  zh: 再次强调，要牢记这是更伟大事物的象征。
- start: 4397.365
  end: 4399.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And finally, I'll just say one more thing real quick.
  zh: 最后，我再快速说一件事。
- start: 4400.766
  end: 4408.208
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When you see Mary depicted in an icon, you will notice that she's never alone.
  zh: 当你看到圣像中描绘的马利亚时，你会注意到她从不孤单。
- start: 4408.208
  end: 4410.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You won't see Mary by herself.
  zh: 你不会看到马利亚独自一人。
- start: 4410.569
  end: 4413.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary will always be holding the baby Jesus.
  zh: 马利亚总是抱着婴儿耶稣。
- start: 4413.63
  end: 4419.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And usually, if not probably always, will be pointing at Jesus, too.
  zh: 而且通常，如果不是总是，也会指向耶稣。
- start: 4419.092
  end: 4426.314
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, the point here is that Mary is not the focus, but Christ is, and she's supposed to be telling you that in the icon.
  zh: 所以再次强调，这里的重点是马利亚不是焦点，而是基督，她应该在圣像中告诉你这一点。
- start: 4427.867
  end: 4432.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: as if to say, what she says in the Gospels, do whatever he tells you.
  zh: 就好像在说，她在福音书中所说的，照他告诉你们的做。
- start: 4434.53
  end: 4437.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, any questions about icons?
  zh: 好的，关于圣像还有什么问题吗？
- start: 4441.854
  end: 4444.295
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, well then let's take a break and we'll come back in 15 minutes.
  zh: 好的，那么让我们休息一下，15分钟后回来。
