- start: 1.049
  end: 12.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So today we're going to be talking about the Christological controversy that leads up to the ecumenical councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon.
  zh: 今天我们要讨论导致以弗所和迦克墩大公会议的基督论争议。
- start: 12.135
  end: 15.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I'll spell those words when we get there, so don't worry about it yet.
  zh: 到时候我会拼写这些词，所以现在不用担心。
- start: 15.336
  end: 23.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But basically what we're looking at now is later 4th and 5th century Christology.
  zh: 但基本上我们现在看的是4世纪末和5世纪的基督论。
- start: 23.68
  end: 34.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, in a lot of the books you'll read on this, authors make a distinction between  The Trinitarian Controversy and the Christological Controversy.
  zh: 在你读到的许多相关书籍中，作者们会区分三位一体争议和基督论争议。
- start: 34.862
  end: 40.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now this is not a distinction that I'm that concerned about, because to me it's all Christology.
  zh: 这种区分我并不太在意，因为对我来说这都是基督论。
- start: 40.566
  end: 45.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If we didn't have the problem of explaining who Christ is, you wouldn't have the doctrine of the Trinity.
  zh: 如果我们不需要解释基督是谁，就不会有三位一体的教义。
- start: 45.63
  end: 61.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if you're going to make that distinction, the Trinitarian Controversy is really all about  primarily the relationship between the Father and Son, but then of course along comes the Holy Spirit and they eventually have to get around to that as well.
  zh: 但如果要做这种区分，三位一体争议主要是关于圣父和圣子之间的关系，当然后来圣灵也被包括进来，他们最终也不得不讨论这个问题。
- start: 62.307
  end: 91.748
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Christological controversy, technically speaking then, takes that one step further and talks about, okay, if then the Son is the second person of the Trinity, and if now we've talked about the relationships between the persons of the Trinity, that there is unity and distinction within the Trinity,  What does that have to say about the two natures of Christ, the divine nature and human nature within the person of Christ?
  zh: 从技术角度讲，基督论争议更进一步讨论：如果圣子是三位一体的第二位格，而我们已经讨论了三位一体各位格之间的关系，即三位一体内有合一性和区别性，那么这对基督的两性，即基督位格中的神性和人性，有什么启示？
- start: 91.748
  end: 109.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, if the basic Trinitarian problem is how to balance unity and distinction in the Trinity, then the Christological problem is how to balance unity and distinction  Within the person of Christ, the two natures.
  zh: 换句话说，如果三位一体的基本问题是如何平衡三位一体中的合一性和区别性，那么基督论的问题就是如何在基督的位格内平衡两性的合一性和区别性。
- start: 109.812
  end: 112.734
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How are the two natures one person?
  zh: 两性如何成为一个位格？
- start: 112.734
  end: 115.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Are they unified as one person?
  zh: 它们是否作为一个位格统一起来？
- start: 116.077
  end: 118.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But at the same time, how are the two natures distinct?
  zh: 但同时，两性又如何保持区别？
- start: 118.979
  end: 124.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that the divinity retains its distinction without undergoing change, right?
  zh: 这样神性就能保持其区别性而不经受变化，对吧？
- start: 124.663
  end: 129.386
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because we've seen from the beginning that divinity has to be immutable.
  zh: 因为我们从一开始就知道神性必须是不变的。
- start: 129.386
  end: 131.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Divinity can't change.
  zh: 神性不能改变。
- start: 133.305
  end: 142.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're going to talk about some of the theologians that were involved in this controversy, and we're going to lead ourselves up to the next two ecumenical councils.
  zh: 我们将讨论一些参与这场争议的神学家，并引导我们进入接下来的两次大公会议。
- start: 142.57
  end: 154.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you have in front of you, or if you have the handout on 4th century Christology, you'll notice that on one side was Arius, and we dealt with the Arian controversy already.
  zh: 如果你面前有或者你有4世纪基督论的讲义，你会注意到一边是亚略，我们已经讨论过亚略主义争议了。
- start: 154.137
  end: 158.079
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: On the other side is someone we haven't really talked about yet.
  zh: 另一边是我们还没有真正讨论过的人。
- start: 159.18
  end: 161.961
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is Apollinarius.
  zh: 这就是亚波里拿里。
- start: 168.467
  end: 172.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Wow, it's nice to write on a clean chalkboard.
  zh: 哇，在干净的黑板上写字真好。
- start: 172.19
  end: 173.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Apollinarius of Laodicea.
  zh: 老底嘉的亚波里拿里。
- start: 173.891
  end: 182.016
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, his dates are like 310 to 390, so he's solidly in the 4th century.
  zh: 他的生卒年大约是310年到390年，所以他确实属于4世纪。
- start: 182.557
  end: 188.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We haven't really talked about him yet, but he comes up really around the same time as the Cappadocians.
  zh: 我们还没有真正讨论过他，但他出现的时间与加帕多家教父差不多。
- start: 188.941
  end: 193.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, he was sort of a pen pal of Basil of Caesarea.
  zh: 事实上，他算是凯撒利亚的巴西流的笔友。
- start: 193.323
  end: 200.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the two of them discuss how to interpret the concept of homoousios, or consubstantiality.
  zh: 他们两人讨论如何解释「同质」或「同本质」的概念。
- start: 201.585
  end: 222.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Apollinarius seems to begin within the Nicene or Orthodox camp, but then in reacting against Arius, because he's an anti-Arian, but in reacting against Arius, from the perspective of the middle, he overreacts.
  zh: 亚波里拿里似乎一开始属于尼西亚或正统阵营，但在反对亚略时，因为他是反亚略主义者，但从中间立场来看，他反应过度了。
- start: 223.058
  end: 225.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: and goes to the other extreme.
  zh: 并走向了另一个极端。
- start: 225.019
  end: 233.682
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you can see if Arius was on this side of the board, the pendulum is going to swing over to here, and we're going to meet Apollinarius over on this side of the board.
  zh: 所以你可以看到，如果亚略在黑板的这一边，钟摆就会摆到这里，我们将在黑板的这一边遇到亚波里拿里。
- start: 234.122
  end: 241.405
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, if you think about what Arianism did with anthropology.
  zh: 现在，如果你思考亚略主义对人类学的影响。
- start: 241.405
  end: 246.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, an Arian anthropology is a very optimistic anthropology.
  zh: 换句话说，亚略主义的人类学是一种非常乐观的人类学。
- start: 246.387
  end: 249.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: An anthropology that says humans can be perfect.
  zh: 一种认为人类可以完美的人类学。
- start: 251.65
  end: 260.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because it assumes that Jesus was a human being who achieved some sort of perfection based on an adoptionist model.
  zh: 因为它假设耶稣是一个人，基于一种收养论模式达到了某种完美。
- start: 260.092
  end: 261.392
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, fine.
  zh: 好吧，行。
- start: 261.392
  end: 274.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, the scary part of that for the Orthodox, for the Nineteens, is that if Jesus can progress toward perfection, he could also regress.
  zh: 但对正统派、对尼西亚信经支持者来说，可怕的是如果耶稣能够进步达到完美，他也可能退步。
- start: 274.595
  end: 279.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, the possibility remains that he could sin.
  zh: 换句话说，他可能犯罪的可能性仍然存在。
- start: 280.919
  end: 283.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's not necessarily such a big deal for us today.
  zh: 这对今天的我们来说不一定是个大问题。
- start: 283.501
  end: 301.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, a lot of people today would assume that Jesus could have sinned, and he just didn't. But back then, the idea that Jesus might have sinned and thereby might have disqualified himself as savior of humanity, that was a scary thought.
  zh: 我的意思是，今天很多人会认为耶稣本可以犯罪，只是他没有。但在当时，耶稣可能犯罪并因此失去作为人类救主资格的想法，是一个可怕的想法。
- start: 301.472
  end: 305.914
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That was a thought that, you know, something that just, you know, was inconceivable.
  zh: 那是一个你知道的，就是那种，你知道的，不可想象的想法。
- start: 306.475
  end: 316.235
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, Apollinarius wants to  Describe Christ in such a way that it was utterly impossible for him to sin, even if he wanted to.
  zh: 所以，亚波里拿里想要以这样一种方式描述基督，即使他想犯罪也完全不可能。
- start: 316.235
  end: 342.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, Apollinarius reasoned, though, that the only way Christ could perfectly avoid sin, and consistently always resist temptation, and the only way that you're sort of guaranteed that Christ could avoid temptation, is  if the part of him that has to resist temptation is not the human part.
  zh: 现在，亚波里拿里推理认为，基督能完全避免犯罪，始终如一地抵抗诱惑，以及你能保证基督能避免诱惑的唯一方法是，如果他必须抵抗诱惑的那部分不是人性部分。
- start: 342.87
  end: 349.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In other words, if Jesus has a human mind, that human mind is eventually going to give in to temptation.
  zh: 换句话说，如果耶稣有人的心智，那个人的心智最终会屈服于诱惑。
- start: 349.456
  end: 359.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So what Apollinarius reasons is that in order for you to have that guarantee that Jesus could never sin, he must not have a human mind.
  zh: 所以亚波里拿里推理认为，为了保证耶稣永远不会犯罪，他必须没有人的心智。
- start: 360.365
  end: 370.778
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So for Apollinarius, the human mind in Jesus is replaced  with the divine logos, or the divine mind.
  zh: 所以对亚波里拿里来说，耶稣的人的心智被神圣的道或神圣的心智所取代。
- start: 372.84
  end: 403.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In a way, Apollinarius reasons, well, wait a minute, if Jesus has these two natures, human and divine, and if each nature has its own mind, the divine mind being the logos, and the human mind being the human mind, if each nature has its own mind, its own will, I think I just lost my battery,  If each nature has its own mind or its own will, then does that make Jesus schizophrenic?
  zh: 在某种程度上，亚波里拿里推理道，等一下，如果耶稣有这两种本性，人性和神性，如果每种本性都有自己的心智，神性的心智是道，人性的心智是人的心智，如果每种本性都有自己的心智，自己的意志，我想我的电池刚刚没电了，如果每种本性都有自己的心智或意志，那是不是让耶稣成了精神分裂？
- start: 403.112
  end: 406.013
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Does that make Jesus of two minds?
  zh: 这是不是让耶稣有了两种心智？
- start: 407.975
  end: 414.399
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so he thought, well, that sounds to him like there's not enough unity then in the person of Christ.
  zh: 所以他认为，这听起来好像基督的位格中没有足够的合一性。
- start: 414.399
  end: 420.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It sounds like Christ isn't one person anymore, he's two persons, or one schizophrenic person, or something.
  zh: 这听起来好像基督不再是一个位格，而是两个位格，或一个精神分裂的位格，或者别的什么。
- start: 421.545
  end: 434.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, ultimately, what Apollinarius decided was that he came to believe that, basically, the divine logos replaced the human mind in Jesus.
  zh: 所以，最终亚波里拿里决定相信，基本上，神圣的道取代了耶稣的人的心智。
- start: 435.257
  end: 445.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So that the divine mind could hold down the body, suppress it, and keep it in check, so that it could not sin.
  zh: 这样神圣的心智就能控制身体，压制它，约束它，使它不能犯罪。
- start: 445.746
  end: 446.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Sort of like...
  zh: 有点像是……
- start: 448.541
  end: 454.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Church history professor used to say it like this, like putting a Cadillac engine in a Volkswagen.
  zh: 教会历史教授过去常这样说，就像把凯迪拉克的发动机装在大众车上。
- start: 454.846
  end: 459.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Back then Volkswagen weren't that great, but now they're better cars.
  zh: 那时大众车不是很好，但现在它们是更好的车。
- start: 459.769
  end: 465.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Let's just say it like if you were to put a Corvette engine in a Ford Focus.
  zh: 让我们这样说吧，就像把科尔维特的发动机装在福特福克斯上。
- start: 465.173
  end: 473.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now you know that wouldn't work really, but that's the idea of the divine mind being inserted into  The human person.
  zh: 现在你知道这实际上行不通，但这就是神圣心智被插入人的位格的想法。
- start: 473.614
  end: 477.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, what's the problem with that though?
  zh: 那么，这样做的问题是什么呢？
- start: 477.335
  end: 485.638
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Anticipate somebody in the middle looking at that and thinking, what problem might you see in that?
  zh: 预想一下，有人站在中间看着这个并思考，你可能看到什么问题？
- start: 488.939
  end: 491.52
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Divine mind replaces the human mind.
  zh: 神圣的心智取代了人的心智。
- start: 491.52
  end: 494.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're not equal.
  zh: 它们不是平等的。
- start: 494.081
  end: 494.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Sorry?
  zh: 抱歉？
- start: 494.541
  end: 495.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're not equal.
  zh: 它们不是平等的。
- start: 495.541
  end: 497.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, I mean, what's not equal about it?
  zh: 好吧，我的意思是，它有什么不平等的地方？
- start: 497.322
  end: 498.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're right, but I want you to be more specific.
  zh: 你说得对，但我希望你能更具体一些。
- start: 498.963
  end: 500.423
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What's not equal about it?
  zh: 它有什么不平等的地方？
- start: 503.035
  end: 506.718
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, right, there is no human mind, so he's not fully human.
  zh: 是的，没错，没有人的心智，所以他不是完全的人。
- start: 506.718
  end: 520.388
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So here again, we're on this side of the board, we're losing the humanity of Christ, because a Jesus in which the human mind has been replaced is a Jesus who is not fully human.
  zh: 所以在这里，我们又回到了黑板的这一边，我们正在失去基督的人性，因为一个人的心智被替换的耶稣不是完全的人。
- start: 520.388
  end: 534.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, Christ then is one who has flesh,  But not really full humanity.
  zh: 因此，基督是有肉体的，但并不是真正完全的人性。
- start: 534.337
  end: 544.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So for Apollinarius, the Logos puts on flesh, which is kind of biblical language, but for him it means like, you know, sort of wearing a skin suit.
  zh: 所以对亚波里拿里来说，道穿上了肉体，这是一种圣经的语言，但对他来说，这就像是穿上了一件皮肤套装。
- start: 544.324
  end: 546.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember the movie Men in Black?
  zh: 还记得「黑衣人」这部电影吗？
- start: 546.406
  end: 550.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The alien comes down, and there's that guy Edgar, right?
  zh: 外星人下来了，有个叫埃德加的家伙，对吧？
- start: 550.008
  end: 560.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And he basically sucks the insides out of Edgar and wears his skin, and the white layers, and it was like someone else is wearing an Edgar suit, right?
  zh: 他基本上把埃德加的内脏吸出来，穿上他的皮，还有那些白色的层，就像是有人在穿埃德加的套装，对吧？
- start: 560.299
  end: 563.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, that's kind of Apollinarius as Christ.
  zh: 嗯，这就有点像亚波里拿里眼中的基督。
- start: 563.159
  end: 569.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's wearing a human suit, but he's not really human, because on the inside, he's divine.
  zh: 他穿着人的套装，但他并不是真正的人，因为在内里，他是神圣的。
- start: 569.121
  end: 571.001
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, Apollinarius as Christ...
  zh: 所以，亚波里拿里眼中的基督……
- start: 571.001
  end: 575.982
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, Apollinarius himself would fight this.
  zh: 现在，亚波里拿里本人会反对这种说法。
- start: 575.982
  end: 576.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He would disagree.
  zh: 他会不同意。
- start: 576.742
  end: 587.304
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He would probably say, no, this Christ is human and everything, but the critique from the middle is going to be, nah, what we're looking at here is a Christ who is not fully human.
  zh: 他可能会说，不，这个基督是人，而且是全面的，但中间立场的批评会是，不，我们在这里看到的是一个不完全是人的基督。
- start: 587.304
  end: 591.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He is fully divine,  But he's not fully human.
  zh: 他完全是神，但他不完全是人。
- start: 592.039
  end: 596.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so in a way, we've lost part of the human nature.
  zh: 所以在某种程度上，我们失去了部分人性。
- start: 596.061
  end: 599.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So we don't have two natures anymore here.
  zh: 所以我们这里不再有两性了。
- start: 601.945
  end: 604.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Is it one and a half natures?
  zh: 是一个半性吗？
- start: 604.466
  end: 605.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I don't know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 608.029
  end: 609.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm just throwing stuff out there.
  zh: 我只是随便说说。
- start: 609.79
  end: 612.632
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I wouldn't take that too far.
  zh: 我不会把这个说得太过分。
- start: 612.632
  end: 617.254
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But you see how it's somehow less than fully two natures.
  zh: 但你看到它在某种程度上不到完全的两性。
- start: 619.162
  end: 624.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in fact, there is only one will.
  zh: 事实上，只有一个意志。
- start: 624.986
  end: 633.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So whatever you have of the divinity and the humanity, the will or the mind is divine, not human.
  zh: 所以无论你有什么神性和人性，意志或心智是神圣的，不是人的。
- start: 633.372
  end: 636.154
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there's one will, not two.
  zh: 所以只有一个意志，不是两个。
- start: 636.374
  end: 639.396
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's actually a word for this in Greek, monosolite.
  zh: 希腊语中实际上有一个词来形容这个，单意志论。
- start: 639.396
  end: 644.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It means one will.
  zh: 它的意思是一个意志。
- start: 645.581
  end: 665.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Okay, so Apollinarius is Christ, then,  is not so much the word becomes human, it's more of the incarnation is not a becoming human, incarnation is more of a deifying of the flesh.
  zh: 好的，所以亚波里拿里的基督，不是道成为人，而更多的是道成肉身不是成为人，道成肉身更多的是肉体的神化。
- start: 667.722
  end: 674.366
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Sometimes this is referred to as a word-flesh Christology.
  zh: 有时这被称为「道-肉体」基督论。
- start: 674.426
  end: 678.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, I'm not big on these labels, but in case you read that, I'll throw it out there for you.
  zh: 我不太喜欢这些标签，但如果你读到这个，我就给你提一下。
- start: 678.871
  end: 683.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But what word flesh means is flesh as opposed to human.
  zh: 但「道-肉体」的意思是肉体，而不是人。
- start: 684.053
  end: 694.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In other words, the more mainstream alternative to this would be called word man, and pardon the not so inclusive language, but that's usually what it's called traditionally.
  zh: 换句话说，更主流的替代说法被称为「道-人」，请原谅这不太包容的语言，但这通常是传统的叫法。
- start: 694.958
  end: 701.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But in that case, in the case of word man, the word man means human, as in fully human.
  zh: 但在「道-人」的情况下，「人」的意思是人，即完全的人。
- start: 701.741
  end: 707.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In this case, then, by contrast, flesh means  Just the flesh, but not the full humanity.
  zh: 相比之下，在这种情况下，肉体只是指肉体，而不是完全的人性。
- start: 707.595
  end: 712.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So anyway, if you see those terms, that's what you're looking at.
  zh: 总之，如果你看到这些术语，这就是你所看到的。
- start: 713.016
  end: 728.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, it's interesting because what you had with Arius was, with Arius you had a situation where it was like the flesh earned the indwelling of the word, or something like that.
  zh: 所以，有趣的是，亚略的情况是，你有一种情况，就像肉体赢得了道的内住，或类似的东西。
- start: 728.84
  end: 734.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: What you have with Apollinarius then is the word deifies the flesh.
  zh: 而亚波里拿里的情况则是道使肉体神化。
- start: 734.741
  end: 745.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But neither of those would be considered, by the mainstream, would be considered an adequate interpretation of the word became flesh, or the word became human.
  zh: 但主流观点认为，这两种解释都不足以充分解释「道成肉身」或「道成为人」。
- start: 745.948
  end: 752.553
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that's what the mainstream wanted to hold onto, was not just a putting on, but a becoming, and a becoming human.
  zh: 这就是主流观点想要坚持的，不仅仅是穿上，而是成为，成为人。
- start: 752.553
  end: 754.654
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, I'll get to you in a second there.
  zh: 是的，我马上就回答你。
- start: 754.654
  end: 774.08
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, the other interesting thing is that whereas Arius conceived of a Christ with one will,  although that will was human, Apollinarius also conceived of a Christ with only one will, except for him the will was divine.
  zh: 所以，另一个有趣的事情是，虽然亚略设想的基督只有一个意志，尽管那个意志是人的，亚波里拿里也设想基督只有一个意志，只不过对他来说这个意志是神圣的。
- start: 774.28
  end: 778.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The mainstream is going to say, no, he has to have two wills.
  zh: 主流观点会说，不，他必须有两个意志。
- start: 778.801
  end: 781.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He has to have both a human will and a divine will.
  zh: 他必须既有人的意志，又有神的意志。
- start: 781.922
  end: 790.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because in a sense, when he's in the garden saying, you know, not my will but yours, when the human will is...
  zh: 因为在某种意义上，当他在园中说，你知道，不要照我的意思，只要照你的意思，当人的意志……
- start: 792.253
  end: 794.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Submitting itself to the divine will.
  zh: 顺服于神的意志。
- start: 795.114
  end: 799.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The divine will, the will of God, is the divine will in Christ.
  zh: 神的意志，神的旨意，就是基督里的神圣意志。
- start: 799.576
  end: 804.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, there has to be a human will and a divine will.
  zh: 所以，必须有人的意志和神的意志。
- start: 804.658
  end: 807.599
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the mainstream is going to have two wills.
  zh: 所以，主流观点会有两个意志。
- start: 808.079
  end: 811.24
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Arius had one will, although it was human.
  zh: 亚略有一个意志，尽管是人的。
- start: 811.88
  end: 815.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Apollinarius has one will, but in this case, it's divine.
  zh: 亚波里拿里有一个意志，但在这种情况下，它是神圣的。
- start: 815.202
  end: 817.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, he's sort of gone to the other extreme.
  zh: 所以，他有点走向了另一个极端。
- start: 817.042
  end: 819.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, Adrian, you had a question?
  zh: 现在，阿德里安，你有问题吗？
- start: 819.303
  end: 832.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: So, the whole humanity thing is  Is it implicit in any of the Orthodox writings, or maybe even implied, that Christ could have failed him?
  zh: 所以，整个人性的问题是，在任何正统的著作中是否隐含或甚至暗示，基督可能会失败？
- start: 832.773
  end: 835.153
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, I said that up front.
  zh: 是的，我一开始就说过了。
- start: 835.153
  end: 844.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What scared Apollinarius was that he reasoned that if Arius was right, and Christ could progress, then Christ could also fail.
  zh: 亚波里拿里害怕的是，他推理如果亚略是对的，基督可以进步，那么基督也可能失败。
- start: 844.496
  end: 854.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He could have sinned, and that would have disqualified him as Savior, and so Apollinarius wants to  Describing Christ in such a way that it would be impossible for him to sin.
  zh: 他可能会犯罪，这会使他失去作为救主的资格，所以亚波里拿里想要以这样一种方式描述基督，使他不可能犯罪。
- start: 854.526
  end: 860.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: That's a good question, because the 19's at the time would probably also have wanted to say Christ could not have sinned, even if he wanted to.
  zh: 这是一个好问题，因为当时的尼西亚信经支持者可能也想说基督不可能犯罪，即使他想犯罪。
- start: 860.69
  end: 878.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They just didn't go so far as to try and describe  That's because he didn't have a human will.
  zh: 他们只是没有走得那么远，试图描述这是因为他没有人的意志。
- start: 878.3
  end: 886.966
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, we'll talk about how the two natures or the two wills interact, so we're going to go down that road tonight.
  zh: 现在，我们将讨论两性或两个意志如何相互作用，所以今晚我们将沿着这条路继续。
- start: 886.966
  end: 892.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But yeah, like I said, for us today, it might not seem like such a big deal.
  zh: 但是，就像我说的，对今天的我们来说，这可能看起来不是什么大问题。
- start: 892.13
  end: 908.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We could say, well, Jesus could have sinned, he just didn't. Some people think he did, but most people traditionally would say he could have, he just didn't. And he could have because  He was tempted, and we believe the temptation was real.
  zh: 我们可以说，耶稣本可以犯罪，他只是没有。有些人认为他犯过罪，但传统上大多数人会说他本可以犯罪，他只是没有。他本可以犯罪是因为他受到了诱惑，我们相信这诱惑是真实的。
- start: 909.739
  end: 924.629
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But back then, most people, even in the mainstream, would probably say, no, he couldn't have sinned even if he wanted to, because the divine will would suppress the human will, or something like that.
  zh: 但在当时，大多数人，即使是主流观点，可能会说，不，即使他想犯罪也不可能，因为神的意志会压制人的意志，或类似的说法。
- start: 924.629
  end: 929.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in Apollinarius' Christ, there is no human will.
  zh: 所以，在亚波里拿里的基督观中，没有人的意志。
- start: 929.252
  end: 933.734
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, Christ really has no free will as a human being.
  zh: 所以，基督作为人实际上没有自由意志。
- start: 937.494
  end: 951.416
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Whereas in the mainstream, they might say that the Logos represses, or maybe a better way to say it is reinforces the human will, for Apollinarius, the Logos replaces the human will.
  zh: 而在主流观点中，他们可能会说道压制，或者更好的说法是加强人的意志，但对亚波里拿里来说，道取代了人的意志。
- start: 951.416
  end: 953.637
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there is no human will.
  zh: 所以没有人的意志。
- start: 953.637
  end: 958.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so again, one will only is called monothelite.
  zh: 所以再次强调，只有一个意志被称为单意志论。
- start: 958.277
  end: 961.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And for Apollinarius, that one will is divine.
  zh: 对亚波里拿里来说，那一个意志是神圣的。
- start: 962.142
  end: 971.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, again, Apollinarius himself, when charged with diminishing the humanity of Christ, would counter and say that's not what he intended.
  zh: 现在，再次强调，当亚波里拿里本人被指责削弱基督的人性时，他会反驳说这不是他的本意。
- start: 971.306
  end: 977.169
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, again, from the perspective of the middle, it does look like that.
  zh: 但是，再次从中间立场来看，确实看起来是这样。
- start: 977.269
  end: 986.654
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what Apollinarius is doing here is pushing the unity of the two natures, pushing the two natures in the direction of unity.
  zh: 但亚波里拿里在这里所做的是推动两性的合一，将两性推向合一的方向。
- start: 986.654
  end: 992.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what you're going to see when we have this  We have all these squares filled in.
  zh: 当我们有这个时你会看到，我们把所有这些方格都填满了。
- start: 992.1
  end: 1003.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When it comes to the unity and distinction of the two natures within the person of Christ, the farther you go in this direction is more unity, the farther you go in this direction is more distinction and less unity.
  zh: 当涉及到基督位格内两性的合一和区别时，你朝这个方向走得越远就越合一，朝那个方向走得越远就越有区别，越不合一。
- start: 1003.742
  end: 1007.603
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you'll see that as the next few minutes unfold.
  zh: 所以在接下来的几分钟里你会看到这一点。
- start: 1009.884
  end: 1017.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so for Apollinarius, he's pushing it towards the unity such that the two natures really sort of overlap.
  zh: 所以对亚波里拿里来说，他把它推向合一，以至于两性实际上有点重叠。
- start: 1018.227
  end: 1021.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And you don't really have two full natures anymore.
  zh: 你不再真正有两个完整的本性了。
- start: 1021.048
  end: 1028.61
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The divine nature kind of overlaps or overshadows the human nature, even replacing part of the human nature.
  zh: 神性某种程度上重叠或遮蔽了人性，甚至取代了部分人性。
- start: 1028.61
  end: 1047.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, Apollinarius was condemned as a heretic, or his teachings were condemned as heresy, at the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381. So, now, the pendulum is going to swing.
  zh: 现在，亚波里拿里被定为异端，或者说他的教导在381年的君士坦丁堡第二次大公会议上被定为异端。所以，现在钟摆要摆回来了。
- start: 1047.028
  end: 1056.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Back over to here, because what we have here now is a bishop of Constantinople named Nestorius.
  zh: 回到这里，因为我们现在这里有一位名叫涅斯托利的君士坦丁堡主教。
- start: 1067.313
  end: 1073.415
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And now we're jumping kind of ahead in time because he becomes bishop in 428, so now we're into the 5th century.
  zh: 现在我们在时间上跳跃了一下，因为他在428年成为主教，所以现在我们进入了5世纪。
- start: 1074.505
  end: 1078.367
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I don't want you to get the impression that these guys all sat around the same table.
  zh: 我不想让你觉得这些人都坐在同一张桌子旁。
- start: 1078.447
  end: 1083.85
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're reacting against each other, but we're into the 5th century now.
  zh: 他们在相互反对，但我们现在已经进入5世纪了。
- start: 1087.333
  end: 1099.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nestorius reacts against what Apollinarius was selling, but again, from the perspective of the middle, he overreacts and goes to the other extreme and the pendulum swings this far.
  zh: 涅斯托利反对亚波里拿里所宣扬的，但再次从中间立场来看，他反应过度，走向另一个极端，钟摆摆得这么远。
- start: 1099.82
  end: 1116.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The problem is that the farther we get into the details,  The nitty-gritty of these controversies, the more difficult it becomes to determine whether someone like Nestorius really taught what he was accused of.
  zh: 问题是，我们越深入细节，这些争议的核心，就越难确定像涅斯托利这样的人是否真的教导了他被指控的内容。
- start: 1116.798
  end: 1122.2
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The latest scholarship is that probably Nestorius may have gotten a bad rap.
  zh: 最新的学术研究认为，涅斯托利可能受到了不公平的批评。
- start: 1122.458
  end: 1130.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And he was probably a lot closer to the middle, to the Nicene or Orthodox position than he historically has gotten credit for.
  zh: 他可能比历史上给予的评价更接近中间，更接近尼西亚或正统立场。
- start: 1130.642
  end: 1139.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So I'm going to give you kind of an overview here, but remember what we're doing is sort of simplifying these positions so you understand the concepts.
  zh: 所以我会给你一个概述，但请记住，我们所做的是某种程度上简化这些立场，以便你理解这些概念。
- start: 1139.387
  end: 1148.932
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A lot of people now would say Nestorius shouldn't have been considered a heretic, but that jury's still out.
  zh: 现在很多人会说涅斯托利不应该被视为异端，但这个问题还没有定论。
- start: 1148.979
  end: 1167.502
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At any rate, it's not really clear how far Nestorius pushed this, but what he does, as you can see by where I put him on the board, is he's going to react against Apollinarius' emphasis on the unity by emphasizing the distinction between the two natures.
  zh: 无论如何，涅斯托利到底把这个观点推到了多远并不清楚，但正如你在黑板上看到我把他放在的位置，他将通过强调两性之间的区别来反对亚波里拿里对合一性的强调。
- start: 1167.502
  end: 1172.803
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nestorius wants to keep the two natures more separate than Apollinarius is doing.
  zh: 涅斯托利想要把两性分得比亚波里拿里更开。
- start: 1172.823
  end: 1176.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nestorius thinks Apollinarius is confusing the two natures.
  zh: 涅斯托利认为亚波里拿里混淆了两性。
- start: 1178.097
  end: 1187.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're losing the distinction, which means that it's questionable whether that compromises the immutability of the divine nature.
  zh: 我们正在失去区别，这意味着这是否会损害神性的不变性是值得质疑的。
- start: 1187.422
  end: 1193.005
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nestorius wants the two natures to remain the same.
  zh: 涅斯托利希望两性保持不变。
- start: 1193.005
  end: 1213.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He pushes it in that direction to the point where he really seems to have denied any real union  The union of the two natures is really only on the level of the cooperation of the two wills.
  zh: 他朝那个方向推进到似乎否认了任何真正的联合，两性的联合实际上只存在于两个意志的合作层面上。
- start: 1214.159
  end: 1226.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He does have two natures, and he does have two wills, but the question becomes, how are those two natures unified?
  zh: 他确实有两性，也确实有两个意志，但问题变成了，这两性是如何统一的？
- start: 1226.166
  end: 1227.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How are they one?
  zh: 它们如何成为一体？
- start: 1228.72
  end: 1247.99
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What Nestorius seems to have argued is that the real union between divinity and humanity is simply on the level of the wills that the humanity submits to and cooperates with the will of the divine nature.
  zh: 涅斯托利似乎认为，神性和人性之间的真正联合仅仅是在意志层面上，人性顺服并与神性的意志合作。
- start: 1247.99
  end: 1262.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you think about it this way, if you can imagine in your head the two natures of Christ,  And the divine nature has the human nature on a leash.
  zh: 所以如果你这样想，如果你能在脑海中想象基督的两性，神性把人性拴在一条皮带上。
- start: 1263.54
  end: 1266.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it's kind of a short leash too.
  zh: 而且这是一条短皮带。
- start: 1266.641
  end: 1275.222
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that story is a way of explaining how come Jesus could never sin is because the divine nature has the human nature on a short leash.
  zh: 所以这个比喻是解释为什么耶稣永远不会犯罪的一种方式，因为神性把人性拴在一条短皮带上。
- start: 1275.222
  end: 1279.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the leash is really the only thing connecting the two natures.
  zh: 但这条皮带实际上是连接两性的唯一东西。
- start: 1279.743
  end: 1284.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So I saw a hand going up, that's okay.
  zh: 我看到有人举手了，没关系。
- start: 1287.381
  end: 1316.761
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So again, it's not clear how far he really took this, but he seems to be swinging back toward Arianism in some ways, because whereas Arianism talked about the unity of Father and Son as a union on the level of cooperating wills, now Nestorius is talking about the unity of the divine and human within the Son,  on the level of cooperating wills.
  zh: 所以再说一遍，不清楚他到底把这个观点推到了多远，但他似乎在某些方面又摆回了亚略主义，因为亚略主义谈论圣父和圣子的合一是在合作意志的层面上的联合，现在涅斯托利谈论圣子内部神性和人性的合一也是在合作意志的层面上。
- start: 1316.761
  end: 1323.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But again, it's not a unity on the level of Christ's very personhood.
  zh: 但再次强调，这不是在基督位格本身层面上的合一。
- start: 1324.002
  end: 1341.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fact, Nestorius, when talking about the two natures, used the Greek word prosopon, which is sometimes translated person, so that it sounded like stuff to a lot of people that what he was really talking about was two persons.
  zh: 事实上，涅斯托利在谈论两性时使用了希腊词「prosopon」，有时被翻译为「位格」，所以对很多人来说，听起来好像他真正在谈论的是两个位格。
- start: 1343.308
  end: 1347.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like, as if somehow he was suggesting a four-person trinity.
  zh: 就好像他在某种程度上暗示一个四位格的三位一体。
- start: 1347.631
  end: 1352.433
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Father, Holy Spirit, divine nature of the Son, human nature of the Son.
  zh: 圣父、圣灵、圣子的神性、圣子的人性。
- start: 1353.434
  end: 1358.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I don't think that's really what he meant, but it sounded like that to some people.
  zh: 现在，我不认为这真的是他的意思，但对一些人来说听起来就是这样。
- start: 1359.438
  end: 1370.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, basically, a lot of people saw this as too much distinction between the divine and human within the person of Christ, and not enough unity.
  zh: 所以，基本上，很多人认为这在基督位格内的神性和人性之间做出了太多区分，而合一性不够。
- start: 1370.724
  end: 1379.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, if  Apollinarius' Christ is like a Corvette engine stuck in a Ford Focus.
  zh: 所以，如果亚波里拿里的基督就像是科尔维特发动机装在福特福克斯里。
- start: 1379.797
  end: 1385.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nestorius' Christ is like two men in a horse costume.
  zh: 涅斯托利的基督就像是两个人穿在一套马装里。
- start: 1385.898
  end: 1390.799
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's still really two, right?
  zh: 它实际上还是两个，对吧？
- start: 1390.799
  end: 1394.38
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Pity the one who's got to be the back end, but that's the humanity.
  zh: 可怜那个不得不当后半部分的，但那就是人性。
- start: 1394.38
  end: 1397.24
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the divine nature has to lead.
  zh: 因为神性必须领导。
- start: 1397.441
  end: 1399.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it's still not really one.
  zh: 但它仍然不是真正的一体。
- start: 1401.573
  end: 1407.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Another way I like to think of it, because I'm Italian, like Italian dressing, oil and vinegar.
  zh: 我喜欢用另一种方式来思考它，因为我是意大利人，就像意大利调味汁，油和醋。
- start: 1407.036
  end: 1411.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can shake them up, you can mix them up, but leave them set for a while and they'll separate out.
  zh: 你可以摇晃它们，混合它们，但放置一段时间后它们就会分离。
- start: 1411.958
  end: 1415.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They're not really permanently unified.
  zh: 它们并没有真正永久地统一。
- start: 1417.541
  end: 1427.246
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that means, of course, that Nestorius is going to be uncomfortable with a couple of important theological concepts.
  zh: 这当然意味着，涅斯托利会对几个重要的神学概念感到不舒服。
- start: 1427.583
  end: 1437.448
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One of which is communicatio idiomantum, the idea of the borrowing of idiomatic properties, borrowing and loaning from humanity to divinity, right?
  zh: 其中之一是「属性交流」，即从人性到神性借用和借出特性的观念，对吧？
- start: 1437.849
  end: 1451.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This idea that the divine nature loans glory to the human nature and the divine nature borrows frailty from the human nature, right?
  zh: 这种观念认为神性将荣耀借给人性，而神性从人性借用脆弱性，对吧？
- start: 1451.617
  end: 1455.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, Nestorius doesn't like that idea because that's too much unity.
  zh: 嗯，涅斯托利不喜欢这个想法，因为这意味着太多的合一性。
- start: 1456.079
  end: 1458.02
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He wants them to be more separate than that.
  zh: 他希望它们比这更分离。
- start: 1458.02
  end: 1471.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other thing Nestorius doesn't like is a tradition that we already have in the Church, a tradition of using a particular title for Mary, the mother of Jesus.
  zh: 涅斯托利不喜欢的另一件事是教会中已有的一个传统，即使用一个特定的称号来称呼马利亚，耶稣的母亲。
- start: 1471.187
  end: 1475.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The title in Greek is Theotokos.
  zh: 这个称号在希腊语中是「Theotokos」。
- start: 1476.53
  end: 1483.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Theot from God, the bearer, the God-bearer, or translated into English, mother of God.
  zh: 「Theot」来自神，「bearer」意为承载者，即「神的承载者」，或翻译成英语就是「神的母亲」。
- start: 1485.472
  end: 1498.921
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's already a tradition of calling Mary Mother of God, and I don't know if you may have even noticed it when you were reading The Life of Anthony, written in about 360, so from the 4th century, it's already there.
  zh: 称呼马利亚为「神的母亲」已经有了传统，我不知道你在读《安东尼传》时是否注意到了，这本书写于大约360年，所以从4世纪开始，这个称呼就已经存在了。
- start: 1500.362
  end: 1509.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, Nestorius is uncomfortable with this, because, here's the issue.
  zh: 现在，涅斯托利对此感到不舒服，因为问题在于。
- start: 1511.569
  end: 1527.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The question is,  When Jesus was in Mary's womb, was only the human nature of Christ in Mary's womb, or were both natures of Christ, divine and human, in Mary's womb?
  zh: 问题是，当耶稣在马利亚的子宫里时，是只有基督的人性在马利亚的子宫里，还是基督的两性，神性和人性，都在马利亚的子宫里？
- start: 1527.206
  end: 1533.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Was the divine nature of Christ circumscribed within the womb of Mary?
  zh: 基督的神性是否被限制在马利亚的子宫内？
- start: 1534.632
  end: 1540.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Nestorius wants to say no, because to him that's too much unity between the two natures.
  zh: 涅斯托利想说不，因为对他来说，这意味着两性之间有太多的合一性。
- start: 1540.257
  end: 1543.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He wants to say, well, let's call her mother of Christ.
  zh: 他想说，好吧，让我们称她为基督的母亲。
- start: 1543.049
  end: 1545.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Let's call her Christotokos.
  zh: 让我们称她为「Christotokos」。
- start: 1545.67
  end: 1553.131
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We can call her mother of Christ, because for Nestorius, she's only the mother of the human nature of Christ.
  zh: 我们可以称她为基督的母亲，因为对涅斯托利来说，她只是基督人性的母亲。
- start: 1553.591
  end: 1568.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, for many people in the Church, Mary is the mother of both natures of Christ, and so she can be called mother of God by appropriation, whatever you can say about the second person of the Trinity, you can say about the whole Trinity.
  zh: 但对教会中的许多人来说，马利亚是基督两性的母亲，所以她可以通过归属被称为神的母亲，你可以对三位一体的第二位格说的任何话，你都可以对整个三位一体说。
- start: 1568.114
  end: 1573.575
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, we're not saying she's mother of the whole Trinity,  She's not the mother of the father.
  zh: 现在，我们并不是说她是整个三位一体的母亲，她不是圣父的母亲。
- start: 1574.256
  end: 1577.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But to somebody like Nestorian, he worries that it sounds like that.
  zh: 但对涅斯托利这样的人来说，他担心这听起来像是那样。
- start: 1577.757
  end: 1581.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there are a couple of things I want you to see and get out of this.
  zh: 所以有几件事我希望你能看到并从中得到。
- start: 1581.6
  end: 1593.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One of which is this controversy over the title Theotokos for Mary might sound like it's about Marian devotion, might sound like it's really about Mary, but it's really about Christ.
  zh: 其中之一是，这个关于马利亚「神的母亲」称号的争议可能听起来像是关于对马利亚的崇敬，可能听起来真的是关于马利亚，但实际上是关于基督。
- start: 1593.206
  end: 1595.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's really a Christological issue.
  zh: 这实际上是一个基督论问题。
- start: 1595.779
  end: 1603.124
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Christological issue is whether or not the divine nature of Christ was circumscribed in the womb of Mary.
  zh: 基督论问题是基督的神性是否被限制在马利亚的子宫内。
- start: 1603.324
  end: 1607.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Did Mary hold in her womb both natures of Christ?
  zh: 马利亚的子宫里是否包含了基督的两性？
- start: 1607.827
  end: 1614.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the mainstream is going to want to say yes, because otherwise the two natures are not unified enough.
  zh: 主流观点会想说是的，因为否则两性就不够统一。
- start: 1614.292
  end: 1625.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If the two natures are as unified as we think they are, then they cannot be separated in that way, and that within the womb of Mary, both natures were circumscribed, human and divine.
  zh: 如果两性像我们认为的那样统一，那么它们就不能以那种方式分离，而在马利亚的子宫内，两性都被限制在其中，人性和神性。
- start: 1626.195
  end: 1629.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that really becomes the issue.
  zh: 这真的成为了问题所在。
- start: 1630.198
  end: 1643.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I wish I had chalkboard right here in the middle, but I don't. But on your handout, you'll notice I've listed in the middle, one of the people I've listed is Cyril of Alexandria.
  zh: 我希望我在中间有一块黑板，但我没有。不过在你的讲义上，你会注意到我在中间列出了一个人，就是亚历山大的西里尔。
- start: 1643.968
  end: 1655.276
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Cyril is Bishop of Alexandria from 412 to 444. So he's Bishop of Alexandria when Nestorius is Bishop of Constantinople.
  zh: 西里尔从412年到444年担任亚历山大的主教。所以当涅斯托利是君士坦丁堡的主教时，他是亚历山大的主教。
- start: 1655.899
  end: 1663.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Cyril of Alexandria is, you know, one of these guys who, you know, there's some good things about him, there's some bad things about him.
  zh: 亚历山大的西里尔，你知道，是那种有好有坏的人之一。
- start: 1663.522
  end: 1668.623
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He discriminated against and attacked Novatianists in Alexandria.
  zh: 他在亚历山大歧视并攻击诺瓦提安派。
- start: 1668.623
  end: 1671.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He kicked all the Jews out of Alexandria.
  zh: 他把所有犹太人都赶出了亚历山大。
- start: 1671.985
  end: 1674.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you wouldn't call him a super nice guy.
  zh: 所以你不会说他是个特别好的人。
- start: 1674.445
  end: 1684.349
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But he is going to move us along towards the language for describing Christology towards the ecumenical councils.
  zh: 但他将推动我们朝着描述基督论的语言向大公会议迈进。
- start: 1685.885
  end: 1706.416
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, if Cyril had to pick one or the other of these, he'd probably be closer to Apollinarius, but eventually he gets into it with Nestorius over the issue of Theotokos, over the issue of whether Mary is appropriately called Mother of God.
  zh: 现在，如果西里尔必须在这两者之间选择一个，他可能更接近亚波里拿里，但最终他与涅斯托利就「神的母亲」的问题，即马利亚是否适合被称为神的母亲的问题发生争执。
- start: 1706.416
  end: 1712.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so eventually he, at this stage of the game, sort of represents the middle.
  zh: 所以最终在这个阶段，他某种程度上代表了中间立场。
- start: 1712.239
  end: 1722.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, Cyril  And Nestorius argued with each other by letter, but of course they couldn't sort it out, both stood their ground, and neither one gave in at all.
  zh: 现在，西里尔和涅斯托利通过书信相互争论，但当然他们无法解决问题，双方都坚持自己的立场，谁也不让步。
- start: 1722.922
  end: 1724.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what do they do?
  zh: 那么他们怎么办？
- start: 1724.783
  end: 1726.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, you can probably see where this is going.
  zh: 嗯，你可能能看出这会怎么发展。
- start: 1726.805
  end: 1737.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They appealed to the bishop of Rome, whose name was Celestine, if you're ready to sound C-E-L-E-S-T-I-N-E. Celestine of Rome.
  zh: 他们向罗马主教求助，他的名字是塞莱斯廷，如果你准备好拼写的话是C-E-L-E-S-T-I-N-E。罗马的塞莱斯廷。
- start: 1737.531
  end: 1753.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, again, look at how we have another stepping stone  along the path of the evolution of the bishop of Rome towards the office of the papacy, which we'll talk about more in detail later, but I want you to see this.
  zh: 现在，再看看我们如何有另一个台阶沿着罗马主教向教皇职位演变的道路，我们稍后会更详细地讨论这个，但我想让你看到这一点。
- start: 1753.386
  end: 1772.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Two eastern bishops, bishops of metropolitan cities, Constantinople and Alexandria, they can't agree, they appeal to the bishop of Rome, who is becoming, has become, sort of the last court of appeal, the arbiter over other bishops, even over other metropolitans.
  zh: 两位东方主教，大都市的主教，君士坦丁堡和亚历山大，他们无法达成一致，他们向罗马主教求助，罗马主教正在成为，已经成为某种最后的上诉法院，甚至是其他大都市主教之上的仲裁者。
- start: 1773.729
  end: 1776.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, Celestine sided with Cyril.
  zh: 所以，塞莱斯廷站在了西里尔一边。
- start: 1776.891
  end: 1778.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Saw that coming.
  zh: 早就料到会这样。
- start: 1778.412
  end: 1784.255
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A synod was held in Rome, which condemned Nestorius as a heretic.
  zh: 罗马举行了一次主教会议，谴责涅斯托利为异端。
- start: 1784.416
  end: 1789.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A similar synod was held in Alexandria, which did the same.
  zh: 亚历山大也举行了类似的主教会议，做出了同样的决定。
- start: 1789.319
  end: 1794.122
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, Nestorius is considered a heretic.
  zh: 因此，涅斯托利被视为异端。
- start: 1794.122
  end: 1801.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, there are, you know, there's political issues here as well, in terms of, you know, power struggle between Cyril and Nestorius.
  zh: 再次强调，你知道，这里也有政治问题，就是西里尔和涅斯托利之间的权力斗争。
- start: 1801.715
  end: 1806.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, again, it's probably the case that Nestorius is getting a bad rap.
  zh: 所以，再说一遍，涅斯托利可能受到了不公平的批评。
- start: 1806.196
  end: 1809.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it's not clear just how far he went with this.
  zh: 而且不清楚他到底在这个问题上走得有多远。
- start: 1809.917
  end: 1826.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But his followers, people who came after him, whom we will refer to as Nestorians, they pushed it even further in the direction of emphasizing the distinction between the two natures.
  zh: 但他的追随者，在他之后的人，我们称之为涅斯托利派，他们在强调两性区别的方向上走得更远。
- start: 1827.962
  end: 1848.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so,  If Nestorius didn't have the concept of a sort of two-person Christ, his followers probably did, and really separated the divine nature and the human nature out to the extreme, so that there's almost nothing connecting them.
  zh: 所以，如果涅斯托利没有一种双位格基督的概念，他的追随者可能有，并且真的把神性和人性分离到了极端，以至于几乎没有什么连接它们。
- start: 1848.694
  end: 1857.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One of the reasons, of course, again, is to sort of protect the divinity and its immutability.
  zh: 当然，再次强调，其中一个原因是为了保护神性及其不变性。
- start: 1860.214
  end: 1891.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If Nestorius and then certainly the Nestorians are emphasizing that the only unity that exists between the divine nature and the human nature in Christ is a unity on the level of the wills, which could be called a moral union or a psychological union,  Or a volitional union, this is a word having to do with the wills.
  zh: 如果涅斯托利，然后肯定是涅斯托利派强调基督中神性和人性之间存在的唯一合一性是在意志层面上的合一，这可以被称为道德联合或心理联合，或意志联合，这是一个与意志有关的词。
- start: 1891.654
  end: 1892.515
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Something like this.
  zh: 类似这样。
- start: 1892.515
  end: 1901.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The idea is that the only thing connecting the divine and the human natures in Christ is a union on the level of cooperating wills.
  zh: 这个想法是，在基督里连接神性和人性的唯一东西是在合作意志层面上的联合。
- start: 1901.257
  end: 1908.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If that's what's going on over here, then what Cyril is going to want to advocate is a deeper union.
  zh: 如果这就是这里发生的事，那么西里尔想要倡导的是一种更深层的联合。
- start: 1909.088
  end: 1910.169
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's got to be deeper than that.
  zh: 它必须比那更深。
- start: 1910.169
  end: 1914.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's got to be a union between the divine and human that means that they can't be separated.
  zh: 它必须是神性和人性之间的一种联合，意味着它们不能被分开。
- start: 1914.671
  end: 1917.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This oil and vinegar thing is not going to work.
  zh: 这种油和醋的比喻行不通。
- start: 1918.053
  end: 1923.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it has to be a union on the level of Christ's very personhood.
  zh: 因此，它必须是在基督位格本身层面上的联合。
- start: 1924.296
  end: 1928.879
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Which simply is a way of saying you can't have two persons, you've got to have one person.
  zh: 这简单地说就是你不能有两个位格，你必须有一个位格。
- start: 1928.879
  end: 1930.96
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It has to be a unity of persons.
  zh: 它必须是位格的合一。
- start: 1931.54
  end: 1941.497
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the term that will be used for a personal union  I'm just going to put this over here, it doesn't belong in the box, because it really belongs in the middle, but I'm going to put it here.
  zh: 所以用于表示位格联合的术语，我就把它放在这里，它不属于这个框，因为它实际上属于中间，但我要把它放在这里。
- start: 1942.258
  end: 1945.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You could certainly call it a personal union in English.
  zh: 你当然可以用英语称之为位格联合。
- start: 1946.319
  end: 1953.942
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In Greek, it's this word, hypostasis, or a hypostatic union.
  zh: 在希腊语中，这个词是「hypostasis」，或称为「位格联合」。
- start: 1954.242
  end: 1973.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the hypostatic union is this union on the level of Christ very personally, that we emphasize the unity of the one person of Christ, who has two natures, but those natures are  Unified, so that they're united in one person.
  zh: 所以位格联合是在基督非常个人的层面上的联合，我们强调基督一个位格的合一性，他有两性，但这两性是统一的，因此它们在一个位格中联合。
- start: 1974.629
  end: 1980.55
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Which brings us to the Third Ecumenical Council.
  zh: 这就把我们带到了第三次大公会议。
- start: 1981.87
  end: 1990.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Before we go there, let me see if we have any questions so far, because I know this is deep philosophical stuff, so make me explain it if I haven't yet.
  zh: 在我们继续之前，让我看看到目前为止有没有什么问题，因为我知道这是深奥的哲学内容，如果我还没解释清楚，请让我再解释一下。
- start: 1992.453
  end: 1994.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Any questions so far?
  zh: 到目前为止有什么问题吗？
- start: 1995.609
  end: 2001.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: So, we come now to the Third Ecumenical Council, which is the Council of Ephesus.
  zh: 所以，我们现在来到第三次大公会议，也就是以弗所会议。
- start: 2001.45
  end: 2003.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Can anyone tell me where this was held?
  zh: 有人能告诉我这次会议在哪里举行吗？
- start: 2003.73
  end: 2004.751
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, Ephesus, thank you.
  zh: 是的，以弗所，谢谢。
- start: 2004.751
  end: 2040.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Year 431.  Now remember, as I always say, I'm not a big stickler on dates, but if there are any dates from church history that you should remember, 325, 381, 431, there's going to be one more before we're done today.
  zh: 431年。现在请记住，就像我总说的，我不是很在意日期，但如果有任何教会历史上的日期你应该记住，那就是325年、381年、431年，在我们今天结束之前还会有一个。
- start: 2042.382
  end: 2057.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Third Ecumenical Council was convened by the Emperor Theodosius II, and presided over by Cyril of Alexandria,  with authority from Celestine of Rome.
  zh: 第三次大公会议由皇帝狄奥多西二世召集，由亚历山大的西里尔主持，得到了罗马的塞莱斯廷的授权。
- start: 2057.934
  end: 2071.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So even though Celestine doesn't go, he sort of still has this, there's this assumption that he has authority there, that Cyril presides on his authority.
  zh: 所以即使塞莱斯廷没有去，他某种程度上仍然有这个，有这种假设他在那里有权威，西里尔是以他的权威主持的。
- start: 2071.94
  end: 2077.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, so Nestorius is excommunicated.
  zh: 好的，所以涅斯托利被逐出教会。
- start: 2077.783
  end: 2083.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That was Celestine's, job number one for Cyril, make sure you excommunicate Nestorius.
  zh: 这是塞莱斯廷给西里尔的首要任务，确保你把涅斯托利逐出教会。
- start: 2085.23
  end: 2088.831
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Nestorius is excommunicated.
  zh: 涅斯托利被逐出教会。
- start: 2089.192
  end: 2096.734
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The condemnation of Apollinarius from the Council of Constantinople in 381 is affirmed.
  zh: 381年君士坦丁堡会议对亚波里拿里的谴责得到确认。
- start: 2097.455
  end: 2099.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So now we have this.
  zh: 所以现在我们有了这个。
- start: 2099.576
  end: 2111.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We know this isn't going to work because it's not a full two natures, not a full humanity, also because the one will thing is not going to work.
  zh: 我们知道这行不通，因为它不是完整的两性，不是完整的人性，也因为单一意志的说法行不通。
- start: 2111.28
  end: 2122.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: We know this is also not going to work because of the  The fact that this does not have a personal union or a hypostatic union.
  zh: 我们知道这也行不通，因为这没有位格联合或位格性联合。
- start: 2122.868
  end: 2131.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But, to Nestorius' credit, this is correct, and this is correct according to the Council.
  zh: 但是，值得称赞的是，根据会议的说法，涅斯托利在这一点和这一点上是正确的。
- start: 2131.111
  end: 2132.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Christ does have two natures.
  zh: 基督确实有两性。
- start: 2132.812
  end: 2134.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Christ does have two wills.
  zh: 基督确实有两个意志。
- start: 2134.853
  end: 2143.577
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's just that the union of the two natures has to be a deeper union than simply a moral union or a psychological union.
  zh: 只是两性的联合必须是比单纯的道德联合或心理联合更深的联合。
- start: 2143.686
  end: 2160.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so you see, ultimately, though the Council obviously didn't describe it this way, this is me describing it this way, but ultimately Nestorius has too much distinction and not enough unity between the two wills.
  zh: 所以你看，最终，虽然会议显然没有这样描述，这是我这样描述的，但最终涅斯托利在两个意志之间有太多区别而不够合一。
- start: 2160.511
  end: 2166.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Apollinarius has too much unity and not enough distinction between the two wills.
  zh: 亚波里拿里在两个意志之间有太多合一而不够区别。
- start: 2166.113
  end: 2174.689
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so that the orthodox balance of unity and distinction  Between the two wills is Cyril's hypostatic union.
  zh: 因此，两个意志之间合一和区别的正统平衡是西里尔的位格联合。
- start: 2174.689
  end: 2185.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And that concept is affirmed as the correct understanding of Christ as two natures with a union on the level of his very personhood.
  zh: 这个概念被确认为正确理解基督，即两性在他位格层面上的联合。
- start: 2185.959
  end: 2192.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So it's not just a psychological or moral or volitional union, it's a complete union.
  zh: 所以这不仅仅是心理上、道德上或意志上的联合，而是一种完全的联合。
- start: 2193.305
  end: 2194.926
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Okay, now.
  zh: 好的，现在。
- start: 2196.795
  end: 2203.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Nestorius and his supporters actually went off and had their own council, and they excommunicated Cyril.
  zh: 涅斯托利和他的支持者实际上离开并召开了自己的会议，他们把西里尔逐出教会。
- start: 2204.382
  end: 2213.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But because the official council had the backing of the emperor, Theodosius II, he stepped in.
  zh: 但因为官方会议得到了皇帝狄奥多西二世的支持，他介入了。
- start: 2213.991
  end: 2229.725
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He actually arrested both Nestorius and Cyril, but then when it became clear that Cyril was the one backed by Rome,  Cyril was released and Nestorius was exiled.
  zh: 他实际上逮捕了涅斯托利和西里尔两人，但当明确西里尔是得到罗马支持的那个人时，西里尔被释放，涅斯托利被流放。
- start: 2229.865
  end: 2238.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, you'd think that would be enough, but it's not, because we really actually have one more box to fill in here.
  zh: 现在，你可能认为这就够了，但事实并非如此，因为我们实际上还有一个方框要填。
- start: 2239.312
  end: 2241.433
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, you know how this works.
  zh: 嗯，你知道这是怎么回事。
- start: 2245.899
  end: 2248.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The pendulum is going to swing to the other side now.
  zh: 钟摆现在要摆到另一边了。
- start: 2248.4
  end: 2259.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Someone is going to react against Nestorianism, as it comes to be called, and in fact, again, from the perspective of the middle, will overreact.
  zh: 有人会反对被称为涅斯托利主义的东西，事实上，再次从中间立场来看，会反应过度。
- start: 2259.242
  end: 2262.363
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And this guy's name is Eutyches.
  zh: 这个人的名字是欧迪奇。
- start: 2263.103
  end: 2264.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, he's not a bishop.
  zh: 现在，他不是主教。
- start: 2264.384
  end: 2266.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He's a monk from Constantinople.
  zh: 他是君士坦丁堡的一个修士。
- start: 2267.144
  end: 2271.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So he's right in Nestorian's backyard there.
  zh: 所以他就在涅斯托利派的后院里。
- start: 2274.005
  end: 2289.034
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Basically, he's reacting against Nestorius, and so if Nestorius or Nestorianism is an emphasis on the distinction between the two natures, Eutychius is going to react against that by emphasizing the unity of the two natures.
  zh: 基本上，他在反对涅斯托利，所以如果涅斯托利或涅斯托利主义强调两性之间的区别，欧迪奇就会通过强调两性的合一来反对这一点。
- start: 2289.314
  end: 2301.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But he pushes the unity of the two natures farther than Apollinarius did, to the point where not only doesn't he have two natures, he doesn't even have one and a half natures.
  zh: 但他把两性的合一推得比亚波里拿里更远，到了不仅没有两性，甚至连一个半性都没有的地步。
- start: 2301.762
  end: 2312.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: What he suggests  It sounds like the divine nature hasn't just overshadowed the human nature, like Apollinarius.
  zh: 他的建议听起来像是神性不仅仅是遮蔽了人性，像亚波里拿里那样。
- start: 2312.499
  end: 2317.381
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's completely absorbed the human nature, so there's no human nature left.
  zh: 它完全吸收了人性，所以没有人性剩下。
- start: 2317.461
  end: 2321.282
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in effect, he ends up with only one nature.
  zh: 所以，实际上，他最终只剩下一性。
- start: 2322.143
  end: 2330.546
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, he would say that there were two natures to start with, but as soon as they touch, as soon as they connect, the divine nature absorbs the human nature.
  zh: 现在，他会说一开始有两性，但一旦它们接触，一旦它们连接，神性就吸收了人性。
- start: 2331.892
  end: 2342.274
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The critique from the middle is going to be, well, if that's the case, then the one nature you're left with is sort of a new thing entirely.
  zh: 中间立场的批评会是，好吧，如果是这样的话，那么你剩下的那一性完全是一种新东西。
- start: 2342.715
  end: 2351.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's like an alloy of some kind, where you've got copper and zinc, you put them together and you get brass.
  zh: 这就像某种合金，你有铜和锌，你把它们放在一起，你就得到了黄铜。
- start: 2351.137
  end: 2354.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But brass is neither copper nor zinc anymore.
  zh: 但黄铜既不是铜也不是锌了。
- start: 2354.398
  end: 2355.638
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's like that.
  zh: 所以就是这样。
- start: 2355.638
  end: 2358.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, there's a Latin term for this.
  zh: 嗯，有一个拉丁语术语来形容这个。
- start: 2363.413
  end: 2368.194
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A tertium quid, a third thing, a completely different thing.
  zh: 「tertium quid」，第三种东西，一种完全不同的东西。
- start: 2368.194
  end: 2377.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the point is that the human nature seems to be absorbed into the divine nature so that we're now at the point where there's no humanity left.
  zh: 但关键是人性似乎被吸收到神性中，以至于我们现在到了没有人性剩下的地步。
- start: 2378.617
  end: 2384.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Whatever humanity was there is sort of deified in the incarnation and turned into this third thing.
  zh: 无论那里有什么人性，在道成肉身中都某种程度上被神化并转变成这第三种东西。
- start: 2385.079
  end: 2398.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, with one nature, we've got a Greek word for that,  One will is monophilite, one nature is monophysite.
  zh: 所以，对于一性，我们有一个希腊词，一个意志是单意志论，一性是单性论。
- start: 2398.705
  end: 2402.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Monophysite Christology is one nature Christology.
  zh: 单性论基督论是一性基督论。
- start: 2402.946
  end: 2412.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's one nature after the union and that nature is all divine, which means effectively that monophysite Christology has...
  zh: 联合后是一性，而且这一性完全是神性，这实际上意味着单性论基督论有……
- start: 2413.408
  end: 2416.849
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: you're left with a Christ that has no humanity anymore.
  zh: 你剩下的是一个不再有人性的基督。
- start: 2418.548
  end: 2432.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it looks, I suppose, something like the Christ of the modalists, but it's different from modalism because it doesn't necessarily conflate all three persons of the Trinity into one thing.
  zh: 我想，它看起来有点像形态论者的基督，但它与形态论不同，因为它不一定将三位一体的三个位格合并为一个东西。
- start: 2432.578
  end: 2441.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But what modalism did with the Trinity, Eutychianism or Monophysitism does with the two natures of Christ.
  zh: 但形态论对三位一体所做的，欧迪奇主义或单性论对基督的两性所做。
- start: 2441.164
  end: 2442.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Does that make sense?
  zh: 这说得通吗？
- start: 2443.226
  end: 2456.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So we're sort of  Rehashing the same arguments, although before they were about the relationship between Father and Son, now they're about the relationship between humanity and divinity within the Son.
  zh: 所以我们某种程度上是在重复同样的论点，虽然之前它们是关于圣父和圣子之间的关系，现在它们是关于圣子内部人性和神性之间的关系。
- start: 2456.912
  end: 2457.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so...
  zh: 所以……
- start: 2459.446
  end: 2467.31
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The critique from the mainstream, of course, is that if the humanity is absorbed, Jesus is not really human.
  zh: 当然，主流的批评是，如果人性被吸收了，耶稣就不是真正的人了。
- start: 2467.31
  end: 2473.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He may be homoousios with God, but he's not homoousios with humanity anymore.
  zh: 他可能与神同质，但他不再与人类同质了。
- start: 2473.113
  end: 2474.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He's not consubstantial with humanity.
  zh: 他不与人性同质。
- start: 2474.854
  end: 2476.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He's not one of us anymore.
  zh: 他不再是我们中的一员了。
- start: 2476.855
  end: 2481.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And again, if he's not one of us, how can he be a representative of us?
  zh: 再说一次，如果他不是我们中的一员，他怎么能代表我们？
- start: 2481.298
  end: 2482.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: How can he be our savior?
  zh: 他怎么能成为我们的救主？
- start: 2483.639
  end: 2484.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: All of that.
  zh: 所有这些。
- start: 2484.199
  end: 2486.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, all those same problems.
  zh: 所以，所有这些相同的问题。
- start: 2486.72
  end: 2493.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, to be fair,  Eutychius was trying to be a good Cyrillian.
  zh: 现在，公平地说，欧迪奇试图成为一个好的西里尔派。
- start: 2493.76
  end: 2503.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He was trying to follow Cyril, but he either misinterpreted Cyril, or he simply refused to say anything Cyril didn't say.
  zh: 他试图跟随西里尔，但他要么误解了西里尔，要么simply拒绝说西里尔没说过的任何话。
- start: 2503.283
  end: 2509.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So when he was confronted, and they said, okay, Eutychius, well, is Christ consubstantial with humanity?
  zh: 所以当他被质问时，他们说，好吧，欧迪奇，基督与人性同质吗？
- start: 2511.006
  end: 2517.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Since he couldn't remember any place where Cyril said that Christ was,  He couldn't say that Christ was.
  zh: 由于他记不起西里尔在任何地方说过基督是这样的，他就不能说基督是这样的。
- start: 2517.444
  end: 2522.608
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in a sense, maybe Eutychius was in over his head, not a bishop.
  zh: 所以，从某种意义上说，也许欧迪奇超出了他的能力范围，他不是主教。
- start: 2522.608
  end: 2525.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's the abbot of the monastery, but he's basically a monk.
  zh: 他是修道院的院长，但基本上是个修士。
- start: 2525.991
  end: 2527.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's not clergy.
  zh: 他不是神职人员。
- start: 2527.232
  end: 2530.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Maybe not a theologian.
  zh: 也许不是神学家。
- start: 2532.536
  end: 2544.441
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in reality, Cyril, Apollinarius, Eutychius,  Not a real tight, you know, borders between them.
  zh: 所以，实际上，西里尔、亚波里拿里、欧迪奇，你知道，他们之间的界限并不是很严格。
- start: 2544.441
  end: 2545.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Kind of fuzzy borders.
  zh: 有点模糊的界限。
- start: 2545.562
  end: 2550.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And, you know, as I already said, Nestorius may have gotten a bad rap.
  zh: 而且，你知道，就像我已经说过的，涅斯托利可能受到了不公平的批评。
- start: 2550.264
  end: 2557.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the farther we go in these debates, the harder it becomes to really define what heresy is anymore.
  zh: 所以，我们在这些辩论中走得越远，就越难真正定义什么是异端了。
- start: 2557.808
  end: 2561.39
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It used to be, oh, back in the 2nd and 3rd century it was so easy.
  zh: 过去，哦，在2世纪和3世纪，这是如此容易。
- start: 2561.39
  end: 2562.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now it's difficult.
  zh: 现在变得困难了。
- start: 2562.51
  end: 2564.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, at any rate, here's where we are.
  zh: 但无论如何，这就是我们现在的情况。
- start: 2564.171
  end: 2573.333
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so that  Ultimately, this is going to lead us to yet another ecumenical council.
  zh: 所以最终，这将引导我们到另一次大公会议。
- start: 2573.333
  end: 2581.618
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, just like you had the Council of Nicaea, but that didn't really settle the issue, and you had to have the Council of Constantinople, same thing here.
  zh: 所以，就像你有尼西亚会议，但那并没有真正解决问题，你不得不召开君士坦丁堡会议，这里也是一样。
- start: 2581.618
  end: 2591.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We had the Council of Ephesus, but that didn't quite do the trick, so we're going to have to have the Council of Chalcedon that we'll come to.
  zh: 我们有了以弗所会议，但那并没有完全解决问题，所以我们将不得不召开迦克墩会议，我们将会讨论到。
- start: 2591.964
  end: 2602.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Though I failed to mention, and I didn't say it specifically, that the Council of Ephesus did also  Decree that it is appropriate to call Mary Mother of God.
  zh: 虽然我忘了提，而且我没有特别说，以弗所会议也确实颁布法令，称马利亚为神的母亲是适当的。
- start: 2602.303
  end: 2614.265
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fact, some of the most ancient churches dedicated to Mary were founded at this time.
  zh: 事实上，一些最古老的献给马利亚的教堂就是在这个时期建立的。
- start: 2614.945
  end: 2626.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, you know, in the older denominations, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, the other Eastern denominations,  Mary is considered Mother of God.
  zh: 所以，你知道，在较老的教派中，罗马公教会、希腊正教会、其他东方教派，马利亚被视为神的母亲。
- start: 2626.598
  end: 2631.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's a legitimate title for her.
  zh: 这是她合法的称号。
- start: 2635.161
  end: 2636.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yes, question?
  zh: 是的，有问题吗？
- start: 2636.501
  end: 2638.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Are they starting sainthood?
  zh: 他们开始圣人封号了吗？
- start: 2638.462
  end: 2641.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Did she get that title?
  zh: 她得到那个称号了吗？
- start: 2641.943
  end: 2643.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, that's a good question.
  zh: 嗯，这是个好问题。
- start: 2643.483
  end: 2647.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mary is always a little bit different than the rest of the saints.
  zh: 马利亚总是与其他圣人有些不同。
- start: 2649.5
  end: 2657.582
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, the idea of sainthood, we'll talk about this more in a couple weeks, but the idea of sainthood really starts during the persecutions.
  zh: 你知道，圣人的概念，我们几周后会更多地讨论这个，但圣人的概念实际上是在迫害期间开始的。
- start: 2658.623
  end: 2675.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: There's an assumption that, you know, because martyrdom is sort of a guaranteed salvation, you know, if you're martyred, it doesn't matter what you've done in your life, you know, you're guaranteed salvation.
  zh: 有一种假设，你知道，因为殉道某种程度上是保证得救的，你知道，如果你殉道了，不管你一生做过什么，你知道，你都保证得救。
- start: 2675.708
  end: 2681.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, the martyrs are kind of like  The people that you know for sure are in the kingdom.
  zh: 所以，殉道者就像是你确定在天国里的人。
- start: 2681.991
  end: 2686.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because remember, going back to Paul's letter, all Christians are called saints, right?
  zh: 因为记住，回到保罗的书信，所有基督徒都被称为圣徒，对吧？
- start: 2686.333
  end: 2692.917
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the problem is, is you don't really know with any one individual if they might have lost their salvation through sin.
  zh: 但问题是，你不能真正知道任何一个人是否可能因罪失去了他们的救恩。
- start: 2693.217
  end: 2697.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the only people you know for sure who are saints are the martyrs.
  zh: 所以你确定是圣徒的唯一人是殉道者。
- start: 2697.62
  end: 2704.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the tradition develops of attaching that title to the martyrs because you know for sure.
  zh: 所以发展出了将这个称号附加给殉道者的传统，因为你确定。
- start: 2704.724
  end: 2712.126
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then after the persecutions are over, the  Monasticism becomes the new martyrdom.
  zh: 然后在迫害结束后，修道主义成为新的殉道。
- start: 2712.126
  end: 2723.191
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the ascetics will be called saints because they're seen as having, they didn't give their lives literally, but they gave their lives in the sense of giving up their lifestyle for Christ.
  zh: 所以苦行者会被称为圣人，因为他们被视为，他们并没有字面意义上献出生命，但他们在为基督放弃生活方式的意义上献出了生命。
- start: 2723.191
  end: 2726.712
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it sort of goes from there.
  zh: 所以它从那里开始发展。
- start: 2726.712
  end: 2731.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But Mary is always a little bit different because she doesn't fall into either of those categories.
  zh: 但马利亚总是有点不同，因为她不属于这两类中的任何一类。
- start: 2732.515
  end: 2745.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But because of her  Her specific place in the Gospel story and having given birth to Jesus, she is considered one of the saints for sure.
  zh: 但因为她在福音故事中的特殊地位和生下耶稣，她肯定被认为是圣徒之一。
- start: 2747.194
  end: 2751.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But at this point, you don't really see that used as a title yet for her.
  zh: 但在这个时候，你还没有真正看到这被用作她的称号。
- start: 2752.118
  end: 2753.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not that I can think of.
  zh: 我想不出来。
- start: 2755.0
  end: 2761.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, Mother of God goes back at least to the 4th century, if not before.
  zh: 所以，「神的母亲」这个称号至少可以追溯到4世纪，如果不是更早的话。
- start: 2763.191
  end: 2765.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, any other questions at this point?
  zh: 好的，在这一点上还有其他问题吗？
- start: 2765.272
  end: 2765.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: How are we doing?
  zh: 我们进展如何？
- start: 2765.892
  end: 2767.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You still with me?
  zh: 你们还跟得上吗？
- start: 2767.452
  end: 2768.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 2768.773
  end: 2772.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, at this point we have some political wranglings that go on.
  zh: 现在，在这一点上我们有一些政治纷争正在进行。
- start: 2772.293
  end: 2784.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For example, when Cyril of Alexandria dies, he is succeeded as Bishop of Alexandria by a guy named Diosaurus.
  zh: 例如，当亚历山大的西里尔去世时，一个名叫狄奥斯科鲁的人继任为亚历山大的主教。
- start: 2787.558
  end: 2797.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Diosaurus, as you can see from the fact that I wrote him over here, is  a follower of Eutyches, or side with Eutyches.
  zh: 而狄奥斯科鲁，正如你从我在这里写下他的名字可以看出，是欧迪奇的追随者，或者说站在欧迪奇一边。
- start: 2798.038
  end: 2810.581
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so what happens is, when the Bishop of Alexandria changes, it goes from Orthodox to Monothecite.
  zh: 所以发生的事情是，当亚历山大的主教改变时，它从正统变成了单性论。
- start: 2810.961
  end: 2825.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because for somebody like Theosaurus, again, if you look over here, anything that has too much distinction between  The divine human natures in Christ is going to look like a four-person trinity.
  zh: 因为对于像狄奥斯科鲁这样的人来说，再次，如果你看这里，任何在基督的神人两性之间有太多区别的东西都会看起来像是四位一体。
- start: 2825.119
  end: 2827.02
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's the concern from these guys.
  zh: 这是这些人的担忧。
- start: 2827.02
  end: 2833.343
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: These guys are looking over here, in fact, these guys are looking at the middle, and they're saying, you have a trinity of four persons.
  zh: 这些人在看这里，事实上，这些人在看中间，他们说，你有一个四位一体。
- start: 2833.464
  end: 2836.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Father, Holy Spirit, and then the two natures of Christ.
  zh: 圣父、圣灵，然后是基督的两性。
- start: 2836.706
  end: 2839.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And that's their concern.
  zh: 这就是他们的担忧。
- start: 2839.107
  end: 2844.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, theosaurus leans heavily on that end.
  zh: 所以，狄奥斯科鲁严重倾向于那一端。
- start: 2845.771
  end: 2852.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At about the same time,  A new bishop comes to Antioch, his name is Flavian.
  zh: 大约在同一时间，一位新主教来到安提阿，他的名字是弗拉维安。
- start: 2853.113
  end: 2855.474
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Well, just like it sounds.
  zh: 嗯，就像听起来那样。
- start: 2855.654
  end: 2857.736
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Flavian.
  zh: 弗拉维安。
- start: 2857.736
  end: 2858.836
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He's Orthodox.
  zh: 他是正统派。
- start: 2858.836
  end: 2865.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So now we have a monasticized bishop in Alexandria, and an Orthodox bishop in Antioch.
  zh: 所以现在我们在亚历山大有一位单性论主教，在安提阿有一位正统派主教。
- start: 2866.42
  end: 2874.845
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And they will have their issue with each other, and they also will appeal to the bishop of Rome.
  zh: 他们之间会有争议，他们也会向罗马主教求助。
- start: 2874.855
  end: 2877.737
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Except now the Bishop of Rome is Leo.
  zh: 只是现在罗马的主教是利奥。
- start: 2877.738
  end: 2884.203
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Leo I, also known as Leo the Great, and he's on your handout in the middle as well.
  zh: 利奥一世，也被称为利奥大帝，他也在你的讲义中间部分。
- start: 2884.203
  end: 2891.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's the next one that carries the Orthodox position forward.
  zh: 他是下一个推进正统立场的人。
- start: 2891.37
  end: 2909.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Leo was Bishop of Rome from 440 to 461. And he wrote a letter in support of Flavian in this controversy,  And this letter is known as his Tome, T-O-M-E, Leo's Tome.
  zh: 利奥从440年到461年担任罗马主教。他在这场争议中写了一封支持弗拉维安的信，这封信被称为他的教义信，T-O-M-E，利奥的教义信。
- start: 2911.34
  end: 2914.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in the Tome, he does a couple of things.
  zh: 在这封教义信中，他做了几件事。
- start: 2915.123
  end: 2939.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One thing he does is he takes language, now remember, he's a bishop of Rome, so he's a Westerner, so he takes language that he's getting from Tertullian and Novatian, and then also from Cyril,  You've got eternal generation, you've got consubstantiality, you've got hypostatic union, you've got all of the orthodox pieces right in this tome.
  zh: 他做的一件事是采用语言，现在记住，他是罗马的主教，所以他是西方人，所以他采用了从特土良和诺瓦提安那里得到的语言，然后也从西里尔那里，你有永恒生成，你有同质性，你有位格联合，你在这封教义信中有所有正统的部分。
- start: 2941.053
  end: 2942.214
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's one thing he does.
  zh: 这是他做的一件事。
- start: 2942.214
  end: 2950.262
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The other thing he does is he writes it as though he has the authority to tell these other bishops what to do and what to believe.
  zh: 他做的另一件事是，他写这封信时好像他有权威告诉其他主教该做什么和该相信什么。
- start: 2950.262
  end: 2955.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He writes it as if he speaks for Peter, because he's the bishop of Rome.
  zh: 他写这封信时好像他代表彼得说话，因为他是罗马的主教。
- start: 2956.77
  end: 2967.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And, in fact, claims authority even over the other metropolitans.
  zh: 事实上，他甚至声称对其他大都市主教有权威。
- start: 2967.0
  end: 2970.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, there was a synod, you know, this is just a minor thing.
  zh: 现在，有一个主教会议，你知道，这只是一件小事。
- start: 2970.184
  end: 2982.053
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There was a synod held in Ephesus in 449, where  Basically, Theosaurus was in charge, and they received Leo's Tome, but it was never even read.
  zh: 449年在以弗所举行了一次主教会议，基本上是狄奥斯科鲁主持，他们收到了利奥的教义信，但它甚至从未被阅读过。
- start: 2982.433
  end: 2986.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And, I don't know, maybe they didn't have anyone who could read Latin, I don't know.
  zh: 而且，我不知道，也许他们没有人能读懂拉丁文，我不知道。
- start: 2986.335
  end: 3005.465
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But that was 449. By the next year, the Tome had been translated and would be ready for the Fourth Ecumenical Council, the Council of Chalcedon in 451.  Alright, I'm going to make myself some space here.
  zh: 但那是449年。到了第二年，这封教义信已经被翻译，并为451年的第四次大公会议，迦克墩会议做好了准备。好的，我要给自己腾些空间。
- start: 3009.889
  end: 3013.511
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, this is not nest-oriented, so I'll just make a line here.
  zh: 好的，这不是嵌套式的，所以我就在这里画一条线。
- start: 3018.655
  end: 3025.38
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Council of Chalcedon, there is a place called Chalcedon, it's not far from Constantinople.
  zh: 迦克墩会议，有一个地方叫迦克墩，离君士坦丁堡不远。
- start: 3026.081
  end: 3031.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Council of Chalcedon, the year was 451. Again, another date, everyone should know whether they care or not.
  zh: 迦克墩会议，时间是451年。再次强调，这是另一个日期，无论大家关心与否都应该知道。
- start: 3032.074
  end: 3080.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And, um, convened by the new emperor, whose name was, I even hesitate to tell you, uh, his name was Marcion, not to be confused with the Marcion, the heretic from the second century, he was M-A-R-C-I-O-N, this guy is M-A-R-C-I-A-N, he was the emperor, not a big deal, but, um, but anyway, again, I just didn't notice how these ecumenical councils are convened by emperors, because when they're not,  You end up with the synod of 449, which comes to be called the robber synod, because basically at the robber synod, Theosaurus was in charge, and at that synod they said Eutychius is a great guy and Leo is excommunicated.
  zh: 而且，嗯，由新皇帝召集，他的名字是，我甚至犹豫要不要告诉你，呃，他的名字是马尔西安，不要与二世纪的异端马吉安混淆，那个是M-A-R-C-I-O-N，这个人是M-A-R-C-I-A-N，他是皇帝，不是什么大事，但是，嗯，但无论如何，再次，我只是没注意到这些大公会议是如何由皇帝召集的，因为当它们不是由皇帝召集时，你最终会得到449年的主教会议，被称为强盗会议，因为基本上在强盗会议上，狄奥斯科鲁掌权，在那次会议上他们说欧迪奇是个伟大的人，而利奥被逐出教会。
- start: 3080.387
  end: 3082.748
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So they tried to excommunicate the Bishop of Rome.
  zh: 所以他们试图将罗马主教逐出教会。
- start: 3082.748
  end: 3086.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well that wasn't going to stick, obviously.
  zh: 显然，这是不会成功的。
- start: 3086.109
  end: 3087.85
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you can see why that didn't work out.
  zh: 所以你可以看到为什么那行不通。
- start: 3087.85
  end: 3096.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So in order to make these things stick,  the legitimate councils are convened by the embers.
  zh: 所以为了使这些事情生效，合法的会议是由皇帝召集的。
- start: 3097.134
  end: 3121.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, we come to the Council of Chalcedon then, 451, with sort of an agenda of affirming the decisions made at the previous councils, so Nestorius is going to be, his theory is going to be considered heresy, Apollinarius is considered heresy, Eutychius is also going to be considered heresy.
  zh: 所以，我们来到了451年的迦克墩会议，议程是确认前几次会议做出的决定，所以涅斯托利的理论将被视为异端，亚波里拿里被视为异端，欧迪奇也将被视为异端。
- start: 3121.94
  end: 3122.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 3122.341
  end: 3128.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because of what we've known from the beginning, Christ has to be fully human and fully divine.
  zh: 因为我们从一开始就知道，基督必须完全是人，也完全是神。
- start: 3128.945
  end: 3133.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So anything over here isn't going to work because Christ isn't fully human.
  zh: 所以这里的任何东西都行不通，因为基督不是完全的人。
- start: 3134.908
  end: 3149.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: At the same time, the union of humanity and divinity within the person of Christ has to be a real union, so this stuff is not unified enough, but it can't be so unified that it creates some third thing.
  zh: 同时，基督位格内人性和神性的联合必须是真实的联合，所以这些东西不够统一，但它不能统一到创造出某种第三种东西的程度。
- start: 3149.897
  end: 3153.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So at the Council,  Leo's Tome was read.
  zh: 所以在会议上，利奥的教义信被宣读了。
- start: 3155.246
  end: 3172.637
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Depending on which account you read, some of the minutes from the Council say that they read the Tome and everyone all in unison stood up and cheered and said, you know, Peter has spoken through Leo and everyone all agreed.
  zh: 根据你读到的不同记录，一些会议记录说他们读了教义信，所有人一致站起来欢呼，说，你知道，彼得通过利奥说话了，所有人都同意。
- start: 3172.818
  end: 3175.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, maybe that happened.
  zh: 是的，也许确实发生了。
- start: 3175.519
  end: 3190.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Other versions of the story are like, well, they really didn't want to agree because they didn't want to  Submit to Leo's authority, or seem like they were, but in the end they realized that what he was saying was right, was the way they wanted to go.
  zh: 其他版本的故事是这样的，嗯，他们真的不想同意，因为他们不想屈服于利奥的权威，或者看起来像是屈服，但最后他们意识到他说的是对的，是他们想要走的路。
- start: 3191.026
  end: 3195.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And so, in the tome, I'll just point this out, I think you're going to read it.
  zh: 所以，在教义信中，我只是指出这一点，我想你们会读到的。
- start: 3195.886
  end: 3197.687
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I think that's on your reading list.
  zh: 我想那在你们的阅读清单上。
- start: 3197.687
  end: 3198.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's not very long.
  zh: 它不是很长。
- start: 3198.827
  end: 3214.915
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what I want to point out is the way Leo says that Christ is one person in two natures, he actually says in both natures, but the official language  is going to be one person in two natures.
  zh: 但我想指出的是利奥说基督是一个位格有两性的方式，他实际上说的是在两性中，但官方语言将是一个位格有两性。
- start: 3215.916
  end: 3221.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, just like a lot of times, the small words are really important.
  zh: 现在，就像很多时候一样，小词真的很重要。
- start: 3221.34
  end: 3227.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because if they were to say one person out of two natures, you would agree with that.
  zh: 因为如果他们说一个位格由两性组成，你会同意的。
- start: 3227.063
  end: 3232.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh yeah, he's one person made out of two natures, but after the union there's only one nature.
  zh: 哦是的，他是由两性组成的一个位格，但在联合之后只有一性。
- start: 3233.107
  end: 3241.618
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it has to be worded so that the two natures retain their distinction  Even after the union, even after the incarnation.
  zh: 所以它必须措辞使两性即使在联合之后，即使在道成肉身之后，仍保持其区别。
- start: 3241.918
  end: 3245.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So one person in two natures.
  zh: 所以是一个位格有两性。
- start: 3245.219
  end: 3252.18
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this little phrase rules out both extremes.
  zh: 这个小短语排除了两个极端。
- start: 3252.421
  end: 3262.843
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because the in two natures rules out the heavy unity, the one person rules out the heavy distinction.
  zh: 因为「有两性」排除了过度的合一，「一个位格」排除了过度的区分。
- start: 3262.843
  end: 3265.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At least that's the way it's understood.
  zh: 至少这是它被理解的方式。
- start: 3267.681
  end: 3285.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, Leo's phrase is taken up and, along with other ways of saying it that have been around for a while, are sort of collected into a kind of a statement of faith.
  zh: 因此，利奥的措辞被采纳，并与其他已经存在一段时间的表达方式一起，被收集成一种信仰声明。
- start: 3285.654
  end: 3296.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But it's not really a creed, because at the Council of Chalcedon, they were deliberate that they were not intending to write a new creed.
  zh: 但这并不是真正的信经，因为在迦克墩会议上，他们明确表示他们不打算写一个新的信经。
- start: 3296.343
  end: 3300.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because part of the whole deal was to reinforce what had already been done.
  zh: 因为整个事情的部分目的是加强已经完成的内容。
- start: 3300.846
  end: 3307.151
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, we already have the creed from Nicaea and Constantinople, there's no need to write another creed.
  zh: 所以，我们已经有了尼西亚和君士坦丁堡的信经，没有必要再写一个新的信经。
- start: 3307.151
  end: 3310.833
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what you have is what's called the Chalcedonian definition.
  zh: 所以你所拥有的是所谓的迦克墩定义。
- start: 3311.233
  end: 3314.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's something of a statement of faith, but it's not a creed.
  zh: 它是一种信仰声明，但不是信经。
- start: 3314.916
  end: 3319.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's just meant to define Orthodox Christology.
  zh: 它只是用来定义正统的基督论。
- start: 3320.16
  end: 3322.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: One person in two natures.
  zh: 一个位格有两性。
- start: 3324.913
  end: 3335.18
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it further clarifies that the two natures, the union of the two natures cannot have any confusion or change.
  zh: 它进一步澄清，两性，两性的联合不能有任何混淆或改变。
- start: 3335.921
  end: 3341.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the two natures can't be confused or changed or create a third thing.
  zh: 所以，两性不能被混淆或改变，也不能创造出第三种东西。
- start: 3342.826
  end: 3345.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But they also can't be separated.
  zh: 但它们也不能被分开。
- start: 3348.03
  end: 3361.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, however you conceive of this, however you understand this or interpret this,  It cannot be interpreted in a way that diminishes either the humanity or the divinity of Christ.
  zh: 所以，无论你如何构想这个，无论你如何理解或解释这个，它不能被解释为减少基督的人性或神性。
- start: 3362.534
  end: 3382.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the union is a real personal union against Nestorianism, but the humanity is a full humanity against Apollodarius and Monocotianism, so that Christ has a real human soul, or soul, will, mind, all that.
  zh: 所以这个联合是反对涅斯托利主义的真正的位格联合，但人性是反对亚波里拿里和单性论的完全人性，因此基督有真正的人的灵魂，或者说灵魂、意志、心智，所有这些。
- start: 3384.295
  end: 3389.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Eutyches, who wasn't actually there, was condemned.
  zh: 欧迪奇，实际上并不在场，被定罪了。
- start: 3390.158
  end: 3395.24
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Theosaurus was excommunicated and deposed from his see as bishop.
  zh: 狄奥斯科鲁被逐出教会，并被废除主教职位。
- start: 3395.68
  end: 3401.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And, as I said, both of these extremes are declared heresy.
  zh: 而且，正如我所说，这两个极端都被宣布为异端。
- start: 3401.783
  end: 3416.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, in the past, the losers would just sort of skulk away and maybe try to regroup later and try to come back or  or they would disappear from the scene as far as we can tell.
  zh: 现在，在过去，失败者会悄悄离开，也许稍后会试图重组并试图回来，或者据我们所知，他们会从舞台上消失。
- start: 3417.297
  end: 3418.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But those days are gone.
  zh: 但那些日子已经过去了。
- start: 3420.08
  end: 3432.289
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because for the first time at an ecumenical council, really, the losers said, fine, we're taking our ball and going home.
  zh: 因为在大公会议上，这是第一次，失败者真的说，好吧，我们带着我们的球回家了。
- start: 3432.45
  end: 3452.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the monophysites split from the church and  The monasticites were primarily represented by the Egyptians, so Alexandria, Ethiopia, primarily Egypt and Ethiopia.
  zh: 所以单性论者从教会分裂出去，单性论者主要由埃及人代表，所以是亚历山大、埃塞俄比亚，主要是埃及和埃塞俄比亚。
- start: 3454.325
  end: 3467.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Nestorians also said, fine, we don't need you, and they left and split from the church and went into Persia, where sometimes they were persecuted, sometimes they were not.
  zh: 涅斯托利派也说，好吧，我们不需要你们，他们离开并从教会分裂出去，进入波斯，有时他们受到迫害，有时则没有。
- start: 3470.262
  end: 3476.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Although some Nestorians would have accepted Leo's Tome as authoritative, they thought it didn't go far enough.
  zh: 虽然一些涅斯托利派会接受利奥的教义信为权威，但他们认为它还不够深入。
- start: 3476.766
  end: 3499.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, the big irony here is that the very authority that was meant to preserve the unity of the Church by having solid boundaries around Orthodoxy, ultimately the unity broke down.
  zh: 所以，这里的大讽刺是，本来旨在通过在正统信仰周围设立坚实界限来维护教会统一的权威，最终导致了统一的崩溃。
- start: 3499.594
  end: 3504.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is the first real split of the church that's still in existence today.
  zh: 这是教会第一次真正的分裂，至今仍然存在。
- start: 3505.236
  end: 3513.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I'm going to tell you a little bit about these different groups just within the last couple of minutes we have before we take a break.
  zh: 现在，在我们休息之前的最后几分钟里，我会告诉你们一些关于这些不同群体的情况。
- start: 3513.478
  end: 3518.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But let me stop there and ask if there are questions so far on the historical situation.
  zh: 但让我在这里停下来，问问到目前为止对历史情况有什么问题。
- start: 3518.94
  end: 3519.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, Adrian.
  zh: 是的，阿德里安。
- start: 3519.72
  end: 3524.722
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Well, this is just more of a... When did we start getting...
  zh: 嗯，这更多的是一个……我们什么时候开始得到……
- start: 3525.222
  end: 3527.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Letters from the people that they declare ahead.
  zh: 他们事先宣布的人的信件。
- start: 3527.904
  end: 3532.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: I'm assuming there's no letters by Nestorius, there's no letters by...
  zh: 我假设没有涅斯托利的信，没有……的信
- start: 3532.166
  end: 3534.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Yeah, there are.
  zh: 是的，有的。
- start: 3534.107
  end: 3538.23
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can read some of the correspondence between Cyril and Nestorius.
  zh: 你可以读到西里尔和涅斯托利之间的一些通信。
- start: 3538.23
  end: 3541.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Some of that stuff still exists.
  zh: 一些这样的资料仍然存在。
- start: 3541.812
  end: 3543.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yes?
  zh: 是的？
- start: 3543.493
  end: 3552.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: When they say one human in two natures, how about, do you think there are two beings, or one with one person?
  zh: 当他们说一个人有两性时，你认为是两个存在，还是一个位格？
- start: 3553.078
  end: 3559.942
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, basically, the orthodox understanding is that the person of Christ has two natures.
  zh: 嗯，基本上，正统的理解是基督的位格有两性。
- start: 3559.942
  end: 3562.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Each nature has a will, or a mind.
  zh: 每一性都有一个意志，或一个心智。
- start: 3562.904
  end: 3566.386
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Mind and will are kind of the same thing.
  zh: 心智和意志在某种程度上是同一件事。
- start: 3566.386
  end: 3578.738
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Except, the mind slash will of the divine nature, because remember, that's the same divinity as the whole trinity,  So that is the same mind and will of the whole Trinity.
  zh: 除了神性的心智或意志，因为记住，那是与整个三位一体相同的神性，所以那是整个三位一体相同的心智和意志。
- start: 3578.738
  end: 3583.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's not like the Father has a will, the Holy Spirit has a different will, and the Son...
  zh: 所以不是说圣父有一个意志，圣灵有另一个不同的意志，而圣子……
- start: 3584.1
  end: 3591.162
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's one will for the Trinity, but within the person of Christ, there's two wills.
  zh: 三位一体有一个意志，但在基督的位格内，有两个意志。
- start: 3591.402
  end: 3594.263
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The will of the divine nature being the one will of the Trinity.
  zh: 神性的意志就是三位一体的那一个意志。
- start: 3594.263
  end: 3595.843
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Does that make sense?
  zh: 这说得通吗？
- start: 3597.604
  end: 3616.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's sort of like when Jesus is in the garden saying, not my will, but your will be done,  You can think of that as the Son speaking to the Father, but technically it's just as correct to think of it as the human nature talking to the divine nature.
  zh: 所以这有点像耶稣在园中说，不要照我的意思，只要照你的意思，你可以把它理解为圣子对圣父说话，但从技术上讲，把它理解为人性对神性说话也同样正确。
- start: 3630.247
  end: 3643.512
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, I'm just saying that it seems like during these times of controversy, when bishops try to convene a council, the councils don't have the authority to make their pronouncements stick, really.
  zh: 嗯，我只是说，在这些争议时期，当主教们试图召开会议时，会议似乎没有权力使他们的宣告真正生效。
- start: 3643.512
  end: 3661.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, it sort of works a little better if you're in Rome, because in the West, you know, Rome is the biggest game in town, but in the East,  The councils that are convened by bishops tend to be limited in their authority to the area of that bishop.
  zh: 我的意思是，如果你在罗马，效果会好一些，因为在西方，你知道，罗马是最大的势力，但在东方，由主教召集的会议的权威往往限于那个主教的区域。
- start: 3661.116
  end: 3671.879
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So an ecumenical council, if it's going to be a worldwide council, to have worldwide authority over the church, it seems to need the backing of the emperor or the empire.
  zh: 所以一个大公会议，如果要成为一个世界性的会议，对教会有世界性的权威，似乎需要皇帝或帝国的支持。
- start: 3671.879
  end: 3676.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: At least that's what it appears to be.
  zh: 至少看起来是这样。
- start: 3677.17
  end: 3685.612
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: It's just assumed that whenever the emperor calls, it's pretty much the same thing, like Constantine would, to make sure the church is unified for political reasons.
  zh: 人们只是假设，每当皇帝召集时，基本上都是一样的，就像君士坦丁会做的那样，为了政治原因确保教会的统一。
- start: 3685.612
  end: 3690.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yeah, and there's political, but of course the emperors want to be involved in the theological stuff too.
  zh: 是的，有政治因素，但当然皇帝们也想参与神学事务。
- start: 3691.273
  end: 3693.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But, yeah, right, it's all about the unity.
  zh: 但是，是的，没错，这一切都是为了统一。
- start: 3693.714
  end: 3695.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And again, that's the irony.
  zh: 再说一次，这就是讽刺之处。
- start: 3695.294
  end: 3701.856
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You know, they're setting these, trying to set these boundaries around orthodoxy to maintain the unity of the church.
  zh: 你知道，他们正在设立这些，试图在正统信仰周围设立这些界限以维护教会的统一。
- start: 3702.541
  end: 3708.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And ultimately, it seems that it was inevitable that the unity broke down anyway.
  zh: 而最终，似乎统一的崩溃是不可避免的。
- start: 3710.264
  end: 3713.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, okay, let me just tell you a little bit about these groups.
  zh: 现在，好的，让我告诉你一些关于这些群体的情况。
- start: 3713.425
  end: 3714.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Let's start over here.
  zh: 让我们从这里开始。
- start: 3714.425
  end: 3719.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Nestorians are now known as the Assyrian Church of the East.
  zh: 涅斯托利派现在被称为东方亚述教会。
- start: 3720.127
  end: 3723.227
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And they...
  zh: 而且他们……
- start: 3725.08
  end: 3727.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They are not considered heretics anymore.
  zh: 他们不再被视为异端了。
- start: 3729.563
  end: 3748.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Most of what I know here has to do with relations with the Roman Catholic Church, but the Assyrian Church of the East has been recognized by the Vatican since 1994. Pope John Paul II had a meeting with them and they are recognized as not heretics.
  zh: 我在这里知道的大多数内容都与罗马公教会的关系有关，但东方亚述教会自1994年以来已被梵蒂冈承认。若望保禄二世教宗与他们会面，他们被承认不是异端。
- start: 3748.597
  end: 3760.47
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They, for their part, agree that the title Theotokos  It is appropriate for Mary in the sense that it's not heresy, although they reserve the right not to use it.
  zh: 他们同意「神的母亲」这个称号对马利亚来说是适当的，在这个意义上它不是异端，尽管他们保留不使用它的权利。
- start: 3760.47
  end: 3772.914
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They won't call Mary Theotokos, Mother of God, but they get what it means and they understand that it's not heresy if some other Christians want to do that.
  zh: 他们不会称马利亚为「神的母亲」，但他们理解它的含义，并且明白如果其他基督徒想这样做，那不是异端。
- start: 3774.075
  end: 3781.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Monophysites are ultimately what we might refer to as the Coptic Church.
  zh: 单性论者最终就是我们可能称为科普特教会的。
- start: 3781.049
  end: 3787.355
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Coptic is just a word that refers to Egypt and the Egyptian language, which is kind of a Greek derivative.
  zh: 科普特只是一个指埃及和埃及语的词，它是一种希腊语的衍生语。
- start: 3787.355
  end: 3792.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Technically, they're now called the Oriental Orthodox Churches.
  zh: 从技术上讲，他们现在被称为东方正教会。
- start: 3792.699
  end: 3796.543
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, they do not claim to be monophysites.
  zh: 但是，他们不承认自己是单性论者。
- start: 3796.543
  end: 3800.746
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, they will tell you they were never monophysite.
  zh: 事实上，他们会告诉你他们从来就不是单性论者。
- start: 3800.746
  end: 3802.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That was a misunderstanding.
  zh: 那是一个误解。
- start: 3803.329
  end: 3821.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They will agree that Eutychius was a heretic,  But they do not claim Eutychius as their founder, they claim Dioscorus as their founder, and they say Dioscorus got a bad rap because there was this political power struggle between him and Syro.
  zh: 他们会同意欧迪奇是异端，但他们不认为欧迪奇是他们的创始人，他们声称狄奥斯科鲁是他们的创始人，他们说狄奥斯科鲁受到了不公平的批评，因为他和西罗之间存在政治权力斗争。
- start: 3821.194
  end: 3837.442
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So they fully agree that both Apollodarius and Eutychius were heretics, but they claim Dioscorus was really deposed because he opposed the bishop of Rome, and so there was that political thing.
  zh: 所以他们完全同意亚波里拿里和欧迪奇都是异端，但他们声称狄奥斯科鲁被废黜的真正原因是他反对罗马主教，所以那是一个政治问题。
- start: 3837.938
  end: 3844.98
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, today they would not appreciate being called monophysites.
  zh: 所以，今天他们不会喜欢被称为单性论者。
- start: 3846.06
  end: 3860.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They basically agree to the Chalcedonian definition, and they agree that Christ has a full humanity, that there are two wills in the person of Christ, the human and divine.
  zh: 他们基本上同意迦克墩定义，并同意基督有完全的人性，在基督的位格中有两个意志，人性的和神性的。
- start: 3862.824
  end: 3866.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But they prefer to call themselves neophysites.
  zh: 但他们更愿意称自己为「mia-physites」。
- start: 3870.037
  end: 3887.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, if the accusation was that they were monophysites, meaning one will, they prefer to call themselves neophysites, or that their Christology is neophysite.
  zh: 所以，如果指控他们是单性论者，意味着一个意志，他们更愿意称自己为「mia-physites」，或者说他们的基督论是「mia-physite」。
- start: 3887.714
  end: 3894.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Nea is the word for one, so instead of being one will, it's one will.
  zh: 「Mia」是「一」的意思，所以不是「mono」（单一的），而是「mia」（一个）。
- start: 3894.864
  end: 3908.416
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Now, you might think that's not different, but it is, because the word mono means, like, only one, whereas mia is taken to mean one composite will.
  zh: 现在，你可能认为这没有什么不同，但确实有区别，因为「mono」的意思是「唯一的一个」，而「mia」被理解为「一个复合的」。
- start: 3908.416
  end: 3921.282
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, in other words, it's their way of saying, we still like to emphasize the union of the two wills to the point where we want to talk about  The one person of Christ is having one nature.
  zh: 换句话说，这是他们表达的方式，我们仍然喜欢强调两个意志的联合，以至于我们想谈论基督的一个位格有一个本性。
- start: 3921.463
  end: 3923.764
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm sorry, I keep saying one will, but it's really nature.
  zh: 对不起，我一直在说一个意志，但实际上是本性。
- start: 3923.764
  end: 3925.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: That's my bad.
  zh: 那是我的错。
- start: 3926.125
  end: 3928.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: One nature, one nature.
  zh: 一个本性，一个本性。
- start: 3928.967
  end: 3930.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: I'm on this will thing.
  zh: 我一直在说这个意志的事。
- start: 3930.868
  end: 3938.932
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So they want to say, you know, it's not only one nature, but it's one composite nature.
  zh: 所以他们想说，你知道，这不仅是一个本性，而是一个复合的本性。
- start: 3939.612
  end: 3953.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so they still want to say that they're more comfortable with the union of natures such that  Ultimately, they want to talk about one nature, but they also still admit that there's two natures in there.
  zh: 所以他们仍然想说他们更倾向于本性的联合，以至于最终他们想谈论一个本性，但他们也仍然承认其中有两个本性。
- start: 3953.688
  end: 3955.59
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the two natures still remain.
  zh: 所以两个本性仍然存在。
- start: 3955.59
  end: 3962.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a little bit hard to get your head around it.
  zh: 这有点难以理解。
- start: 3962.114
  end: 3979.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But this is their way of saying they recognize the problems with this, but they're not quite ready to  to get on board with the way the mainstream was saying it back in the day.
  zh: 但这是他们表达的方式，他们认识到这其中的问题，但他们还没有完全准备好接受当时主流的说法。
- start: 3979.556
  end: 3994.861
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So these groups, the Coptics and the Assyrians, today they're referred to as non-Talcedonian churches because they, well, we don't call them heretics anymore.
  zh: 所以这些群体，科普特人和亚述人，今天被称为非迦克墩教会，因为他们，嗯，我们不再称他们为异端了。
- start: 3994.861
  end: 4002.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, with the Coptics, they've been recognized by the Vatican since 1973 as not a heresy.
  zh: 事实上，对于科普特人，自1973年以来梵蒂冈就承认他们不是异端。
- start: 4005.274
  end: 4022.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And they've been recognized by the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches as Orthodox since 1989. So that seems pretty recent in the grand scheme of things, but the point is that we're all agreeing on the Christology.
  zh: 自1989年以来，希腊和俄罗斯正教会也承认他们为正统。所以在整个历史的大背景下，这似乎是相当近期的事，但关键是我们在基督论上都达成了一致。
- start: 4022.562
  end: 4034.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, they still are considered non-Chalcedonian because there are other things that were proclaimed at the Council of Chalcedon that they can't get on board with.
  zh: 现在，他们仍被视为非迦克墩教会，因为在迦克墩会议上宣布的其他一些事情他们无法接受。
- start: 4035.054
  end: 4049.082
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the point is that there is agreement now among all these groups on the Christology, that the Chalcedonian definition of the description of Christ is agreed upon.
  zh: 但关键是，现在所有这些群体在基督论上达成了一致，迦克墩对基督的描述定义被一致认可。
- start: 4049.082
  end: 4052.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What we don't have yet is Eucharistic union.
  zh: 我们还没有的是圣餐联合。
- start: 4052.605
  end: 4082.953
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A Roman Catholic wouldn't receive communion from an Assyrian or a  There's a Coptic church on Highway 53 in Rolling Meadows, shiny dome, beautiful liturgy, pretty much set aside three hours for that, but it's worth going.
  zh: 罗马公教会信徒不会从亚述教会或科普特教会领受圣餐。在罗林梅多斯53号公路上有一座科普特教堂，有闪亮的圆顶，美丽的礼仪，基本上要花三个小时，但值得一去。
- start: 4082.953
  end: 4086.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if I go, I do not receive communion there.
  zh: 但如果我去，我不会在那里领受圣餐。
- start: 4086.554
  end: 4090.616
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: because we don't have the Eucharistic unity.
  zh: 因为我们没有圣餐的合一。
- start: 4090.616
  end: 4094.497
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But we do have unity on the definition of Christology.
  zh: 但我们在基督论的定义上确实达成了一致。
- start: 4094.497
  end: 4099.679
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, let me see if there are questions at this point.
  zh: 那么，让我看看在这一点上是否有问题。
- start: 4103.221
  end: 4116.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Make good use of that handout, especially the 5th century Christology handout, because I think that lays it out pretty well with the monotheistic Christology on one side and the story on the other.
  zh: 好好利用那份讲义，特别是5世纪基督论的讲义，因为我认为它很好地展示了一边是单性论基督论，另一边是故事。
- start: 4117.068
  end: 4118.17
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Any questions?
  zh: 有什么问题吗？
- start: 4120.277
  end: 4122.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Okay, then let's take a break.
  zh: 好的，那我们休息一下吧。
- start: 4122.583
  end: 4125.932
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is almost 4-2, so let's start up again at 8 o'clock.
  zh: 现在快7点50了，所以让我们8点再开始。
