- start: 1.195
  end: 5.237
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, welcome back to part two of our all-Augustine night.
  zh: 好的，欢迎回到我们奥古斯丁之夜的第二部分。
- start: 5.237
  end: 9.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Oh, I just broke my one piece of long chalk.
  zh: 哦，我刚刚把我唯一的一支长粉笔弄断了。
- start: 9.619
  end: 13.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the second hour, we're going to talk about Augustine and the Pelagian controversy.
  zh: 在第二个小时，我们将讨论奥古斯丁和伯拉纠派争议。
- start: 13.642
  end: 18.104
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're going to be getting into a little bit more of Augustine's theology here.
  zh: 我们将在这里深入探讨奥古斯丁的神学。
- start: 18.124
  end: 26.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, remember, as I said earlier, that before Augustine, most everyone assumed that humans have free will.
  zh: 现在，请记住，正如我之前所说，在奥古斯丁之前，几乎所有人都认为人类有自由意志。
- start: 26.517
  end: 28.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: especially in the East, but also in the West.
  zh: 尤其是在东方，但在西方也是如此。
- start: 28.719
  end: 36.224
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You see it in Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Clement of Alexandria, in all the apologists, and then in the theologians as well.
  zh: 你可以在殉道者游斯丁、提阿非罗、亚历山大的克莱门特、所有护教者，以及神学家们的著作中看到这一点。
- start: 36.245
  end: 38.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Free will is assumed.
  zh: 自由意志是被假定的。
- start: 39.347
  end: 43.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, now here comes Augustine, and remember his background.
  zh: 但是，现在奥古斯丁来了，请记住他的背景。
- start: 43.391
  end: 61.186
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We talked about his increasingly pessimistic anthropology, especially with regard to social pressure, human habit, etc.  On top of all that, remember that his mentor is Ambrose of Milan.
  zh: 我们讨论了他日益悲观的人类学观点，特别是关于社会压力、人类习惯等方面。除此之外，还要记住他的导师是米兰的安布罗修。
- start: 61.546
  end: 67.349
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Ambrose of Milan is anti-Aryan, so Augustine is anti-Aryan.
  zh: 米兰的安布罗修反对亚略主义，所以奥古斯丁也反对亚略主义。
- start: 67.349
  end: 73.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what is Aryanism but an optimistic anthropology?
  zh: 但亚略主义不就是一种乐观的人类学观点吗？
- start: 73.212
  end: 78.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Aryanism assumes  Arianism has this optimistic anthropology.
  zh: 亚略主义假设亚略主义有这种乐观的人类学观点。
- start: 78.916
  end: 87.022
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: To be anti-Arian is to reject that and to take a pessimistic anthropology.
  zh: 反对亚略主义就是拒绝这种观点，并采取悲观的人类学观点。
- start: 97.085
  end: 112.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Augustine's experience with pears and women led to this very pessimistic anthropology, this pessimism about human nature and about the perfectibility of the human and about the freedom of the human will.
  zh: 奥古斯丁与梨和女性的经历导致了这种非常悲观的人类学观点，这种对人性、人类完善性和人类意志自由的悲观态度。
- start: 113.81
  end: 115.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The problem for Augustine is this.
  zh: 奥古斯丁面临的问题是这样的。
- start: 115.711
  end: 117.411
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Sin is not simply behavior.
  zh: 罪不仅仅是行为。
- start: 117.411
  end: 119.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Sin is a disease.
  zh: 罪是一种疾病。
- start: 143.089
  end: 146.23
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: With which all humans are infected.
  zh: 所有人都被这种疾病感染了。
- start: 146.831
  end: 151.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the symptom of the disease is the loss of free will.
  zh: 这种疾病的症状就是失去自由意志。
- start: 151.493
  end: 157.616
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Humans are enslaved to our compulsions, and we are really only free to sin.
  zh: 人类被我们的冲动所奴役，我们实际上只有犯罪的自由。
- start: 157.896
  end: 162.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We persevere, if we persevere, only because of God's grace.
  zh: 如果我们能坚持，那只是因为神的恩典。
- start: 162.659
  end: 167.761
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Therefore, if we are to be saved, it must be all by God's doing.
  zh: 因此，如果我们要得救，那必须完全是神的作为。
- start: 168.539
  end: 177.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so Augustine wrote in his confession, speaking to God, he said, Grant what you command, command what you will.
  zh: 所以奥古斯丁在他的忏悔录中写道，对神说：「赐予你所命令的，命令你所愿的。」
- start: 178.027
  end: 186.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, tell me what to do, Lord, and I'll do it as long as you give me the power to do it.
  zh: 换句话说，主啊，告诉我该做什么，只要你赐给我能力，我就会去做。
- start: 188.036
  end: 190.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, along comes Pelagius.
  zh: 现在，伯拉纠出现了。
- start: 195.592
  end: 199.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Pelagius is a British monk who came to Rome.
  zh: 伯拉纠是一位来到罗马的英国修士。
- start: 199.653
  end: 207.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And in fact, Pelagius was coming to Rome just about the time that Augustine was leaving Rome to go to Milan.
  zh: 事实上，伯拉纠来到罗马的时候，正是奥古斯丁离开罗马前往米兰的时候。
- start: 207.434
  end: 209.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: They never really met there.
  zh: 他们在那里从未真正见过面。
- start: 210.695
  end: 215.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But when Augustine went back to North Africa, Pelagius was still in Rome.
  zh: 但当奥古斯丁回到北非时，伯拉纠仍在罗马。
- start: 215.536
  end: 224.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And there he read Augustine where Augustine says, grant what you command, command what you will.
  zh: 在那里他读到奥古斯丁说：「赐予你所命令的，命令你所愿的。」
- start: 224.571
  end: 239.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: This would be in about the year 405. Now, Pelagius read that and immediately disagreed with it, in the sense that he thought it undermined moral responsibility and taught a kind of cheap grace.
  zh: 这大约是在公元405年。伯拉纠读到这段话后立即表示不同意，他认为这削弱了道德责任，教导了一种廉价的恩典。
- start: 239.621
  end: 254.628
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: As if Augustine was saying, you know, I'll do whatever you want me to do, Lord, as long as you give me the power to do it, as though that sort of implies  But if I don't do it, it must mean you didn't give me the power to do it.
  zh: 好像奥古斯丁在说：「主啊，只要你给我能力，我就会做你想让我做的任何事。」这似乎暗示着：如果我不去做，那一定是因为你没有给我能力去做。
- start: 254.628
  end: 258.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Therefore, if I don't do your will, it's really your fault, God.
  zh: 因此，如果我不遵行你的旨意，那实际上是你的错，神。
- start: 258.892
  end: 261.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's kind of how Phileas just read this.
  zh: 这就是伯拉纠对这段话的理解。
- start: 261.955
  end: 270.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you can sort of extrapolate from that almost a freedom from all moral responsibility.
  zh: 所以你可以从中推断出几乎免除了所有道德责任。
- start: 270.443
  end: 274.406
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This evil is on God somehow.
  zh: 这邪恶somehow归咎于神。
- start: 276.118
  end: 286.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so Pelagius thought that Augustine's idea of election sounded too much like the fatalism of the manichees.
  zh: 因此，伯拉纠认为奥古斯丁的拣选观念听起来太像摩尼教的宿命论了。
- start: 286.902
  end: 293.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Almost like Augustine's idea of predestination sounded too much like astrology.
  zh: 几乎就像奥古斯丁的预定论听起来太像占星术了。
- start: 293.324
  end: 297.266
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like, well, you know, stars have determined your fate and it is what it is.
  zh: 就像是说，你知道，星星已经决定了你的命运，事情就是这样。
- start: 297.446
  end: 305.929
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so for Pelagius to say these things runs the risk of letting people off the hook.
  zh: 因此，伯拉纠说这些话有让人逃避责任的风险。
- start: 306.078
  end: 309.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And having people throw up their hands and say, well, why be good then?
  zh: 让人举手投降说：「那么，为什么要做好人呢？」
- start: 309.459
  end: 318.181
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why even try to be good if we can't? And Pelagius himself believed in the very real possibility of human perfection.
  zh: 如果我们做不到，为什么还要努力成为好人？而伯拉纠本人相信人类完美的真实可能性。
- start: 318.222
  end: 321.122
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And he would later write this.
  zh: 他后来写道：
- start: 321.122
  end: 321.983
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is Pelagius.
  zh: 这是伯拉纠的话。
- start: 321.983
  end: 327.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He said, since perfection is possible, it is obligatory.
  zh: 他说：「既然完美是可能的，那就是必须的。」
- start: 327.144
  end: 333.866
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, since it's possible to be perfect, God expects you to be perfect.
  zh: 换句话说，既然可能达到完美，神就期望你成为完美。
- start: 334.295
  end: 342.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now remember, Pelagius is a monk, and the lifestyle of the monk is asceticism.
  zh: 现在请记住，伯拉纠是一位修士，修士的生活方式是禁欲主义。
- start: 344.123
  end: 347.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's based on personal discipline.
  zh: 这是基于个人的自律。
- start: 347.626
  end: 356.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if it's all on God, and we don't have the ability  Why strive for personal discipline?
  zh: 但如果一切都取决于神，而我们没有能力，那为什么还要追求个人自律呢？
- start: 356.938
  end: 361.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Why even attempt to have an aesthetic lifestyle?
  zh: 为什么还要尝试过禁欲的生活？
- start: 361.501
  end: 367.666
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And it seems to question the monastic vocation, as if it can't be done.
  zh: 这似乎质疑了修道院的使命，好像这是无法实现的。
- start: 368.287
  end: 378.696
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, to be fair, Augustine was a monk too, but Augustine had a very different outlook on humanity and took a different tack.
  zh: 公平地说，奥古斯丁也是一位修士，但奥古斯丁对人性有着非常不同的看法，采取了不同的方法。
- start: 378.696
  end: 390.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Pelagius really  Paul took this and ran with it to the point of completely rejecting the concept of original sin.
  zh: 所以伯拉纠真的把这个观点发挥到了极致，以至于完全否定了原罪的概念。
- start: 391.621
  end: 395.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Pelagius said that all humans are born sinless.
  zh: 伯拉纠说所有人生来都是无罪的。
- start: 395.702
  end: 401.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You're born with a clean slate and sin is completely voluntary.
  zh: 你生来就是一张白纸，罪完全是自愿的。
- start: 401.885
  end: 404.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you sin, it's because you chose to.
  zh: 如果你犯罪，那是因为你选择了这么做。
- start: 406.477
  end: 411.962
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Your actions, based on your own free will choices, will determine your eternal destiny.
  zh: 你的行为，基于你自由意志的选择，将决定你永恒的命运。
- start: 411.962
  end: 419.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you're to be saved, it'll be because you chose not to sin, at least more often than you chose to sin.
  zh: 所以如果你要得救，那是因为你选择不犯罪，至少选择不犯罪的次数多于选择犯罪的次数。
- start: 419.628
  end: 429.917
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so when Pelagius rejects original sin, this is taken by his opponents as saying there's no need for instant baptism.
  zh: 因此，当伯拉纠否定原罪时，他的对手认为这等于说不需要立即施洗。
- start: 430.407
  end: 436.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: because, think about it, if there's no original sin, then what does infant baptism wash away?
  zh: 因为，想想看，如果没有原罪，那婴儿洗礼洗去了什么？
- start: 437.711
  end: 454.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, Pelagius was accused of saying that we don't need infant baptism and we don't need God's grace because we can choose to do the right thing on our own, of our own free will.
  zh: 事实上，伯拉纠被指责说我们不需要婴儿洗礼，也不需要神的恩典，因为我们可以凭自己的自由意志选择做正确的事。
- start: 454.76
  end: 463.802
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Pelagius rejected  The concept of original sin.
  zh: 所以伯拉纠否定了原罪的概念。
- start: 465.123
  end: 468.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this, obviously, is going to get him into trouble.
  zh: 显然，这会给他带来麻烦。
- start: 468.706
  end: 470.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Augustine actually...
  zh: 奥古斯丁实际上...
- start: 470.086
  end: 477.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Do you have a question?
  zh: 你有问题吗？
- start: 477.071
  end: 478.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's an excellent question.
  zh: 这是一个很好的问题。
- start: 478.852
  end: 481.694
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And I knew we would get around to that at some point.
  zh: 我知道我们迟早会谈到这一点。
- start: 481.694
  end: 485.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Was Pelagius influenced by Arianism?
  zh: 伯拉纠受到亚略主义的影响了吗？
- start: 486.057
  end: 487.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's hard to say.
  zh: 这很难说。
- start: 487.298
  end: 490.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I mean, I can't point to a direct influence.
  zh: 我的意思是，我无法指出直接的影响。
- start: 490.387
  end: 493.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But I can say this, there are affinities.
  zh: 但我可以说，它们之间有相似之处。
- start: 493.612
  end: 503.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I purposely didn't try to make a three column chart and put Pelagianism as somehow the next phase of the evolution of Arianism.
  zh: 我特意没有试图制作一个三列表格，把伯拉纠主义列为亚略主义演变的下一阶段。
- start: 503.887
  end: 506.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I didn't want to go that route because it's not that clear.
  zh: 我不想走那条路，因为这并不那么明确。
- start: 506.493
  end: 524.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But there are affinities in terms of the optimistic anthropology, and the belief in perfectibility, and we know that Pelagianism will catch on in some of the same areas that were open to Arianism in the West.
  zh: 但在乐观的人类学观点和对完美性的信念方面，它们确实有相似之处，我们知道伯拉纠主义会在西方一些对亚略主义开放的地区流行起来。
- start: 525.041
  end: 533.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: You said that before that Arianism would spread across the Hagan and the northern frontier, so I thought maybe in some way it might have reached the island.
  zh: 你之前说过亚略主义会传播到哈根和北部边境，所以我想也许它以某种方式可能已经到达了那个岛屿。
- start: 533.172
  end: 543.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, although we cannot say Pelagius is an Arian because there are other aspects of Arianism that he wouldn't accept, but there are definitely affinities here.
  zh: 是的，虽然我们不能说伯拉纠是亚略派，因为亚略主义还有其他方面他不会接受，但这里确实有相似之处。
- start: 543.179
  end: 546.301
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you want to see a connection, that's okay.
  zh: 所以如果你想看到联系，那也可以。
- start: 546.301
  end: 565.848
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What does Pelagius do with Psalm 51 and 5?  You know, I'm not sure, that's a good question, but I'm not sure if we have, we don't have much from his own pen, and I don't think we have anything where he deals with that, where he deals with that passage specifically, so I'm not sure.
  zh: 伯拉纠如何处理诗篇51篇和5篇？你知道，我不确定，这是个好问题，但我不确定我们是否有，我们没有太多他亲笔写的东西，我认为我们没有任何他专门处理那段经文的内容，所以我不确定。
- start: 567.568
  end: 574.71
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: All right, so Augustine actually starts writing anti-Pelagian documents before he's ever read anything by Pelagius, right?
  zh: 好的，所以奥古斯丁实际上在读到伯拉纠的任何著作之前就开始写反伯拉纠的文章了，对吗？
- start: 574.71
  end: 590.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's only heard, and he,  And he's reacting also against another writer named Cilesius, who was actually an influence on Pelagius.
  zh: 他只是听说过，而且他也在反对另一位名叫塞莱斯提乌的作家，这个人实际上对伯拉纠有影响。
- start: 590.173
  end: 596.214
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Cilesius also had denied original sin and had denied the need for infant baptism.
  zh: 塞莱斯提乌也否认原罪，否认婴儿洗礼的必要性。
- start: 597.895
  end: 613.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so basically the idea here is if there's no original sin,  Babies, when they're born, are in the same state as Adam and Eve before the fall.
  zh: 所以基本上这里的观点是，如果没有原罪，婴儿出生时的状态与亚当和夏娃堕落前的状态相同。
- start: 613.562
  end: 617.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: There's no sin to be cleansed of.
  zh: 没有需要被洗净的罪。
- start: 617.963
  end: 625.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This actually led Caelestius to question the role of the cross in the atonement, to go that far.
  zh: 这实际上导致塞莱斯提乌质疑十字架在赎罪中的作用，甚至走得那么远。
- start: 625.966
  end: 629.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Pelagius is kind of based on that.
  zh: 伯拉纠的观点有点基于此。
- start: 630.422
  end: 637.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Augustine's earliest anti-Pelagian writings are really against what he's heard from Caelestius.
  zh: 奥古斯丁最早的反伯拉纠著作实际上是针对他从塞莱斯提乌那里听到的内容。
- start: 637.585
  end: 644.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But at any rate, eventually Augustine read Pelagius' Commentary on Romans.
  zh: 但无论如何，最终奥古斯丁读了伯拉纠的《罗马书注释》。
- start: 644.188
  end: 653.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now the Commentary on Romans was written in 413, and that's the one where he says, since perfection is possible, it is obligatory.
  zh: 《罗马书注释》写于413年，正是在这本书中他说，既然完美是可能的，那就是必须的。
- start: 654.732
  end: 659.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Augustine responded with a document called On the Spirit and the Letter.
  zh: 奥古斯丁以一篇名为《论圣灵与字句》的文章作为回应。
- start: 660.23
  end: 674.464
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And here it's interesting because in that Augustine actually admits, he's conscious of the fact, that he is using Paul's arguments against the Judaizers against Pelagius.
  zh: 这里很有趣，因为奥古斯丁实际上承认，他意识到自己正在用保罗反对犹太教徒的论点来反对伯拉纠。
- start: 674.602
  end: 677.826
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there again is your affinity with Arianism, right?
  zh: 所以这又一次显示了与亚略主义的相似性，对吧？
- start: 677.826
  end: 683.632
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because Paul is speaking out against the earliest version of adoptionism, if we can say that.
  zh: 因为保罗反对的是最早版本的嗣子论，如果我们可以这么说的话。
- start: 683.713
  end: 689.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Augustine finds those same arguments helpful against the Pelagians.
  zh: 奥古斯丁发现这些相同的论点对反对伯拉纠派也很有帮助。
- start: 689.981
  end: 700.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so the Pelagians in this document are called the opponents  How does the fall, if they will admit to a fall, then fit into this idea of sinness?
  zh: 所以在这份文件中，伯拉纠派被称为对手。如果他们承认有堕落，那么堕落如何融入这种无罪的观念？
- start: 724.978
  end: 731.464
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: Is the fall the self-awareness that will lead to sin because of human nature?
  zh: 堕落是否是因人性而导致罪的自我意识？
- start: 731.464
  end: 740.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For Pelagius and Pelagians, the fall is an example of the misuse of human free will.
  zh: 对伯拉纠和伯拉纠派来说，堕落是人类滥用自由意志的一个例子。
- start: 741.892
  end: 750.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The fall brings evil into the world, but sin is not transmitted  Down through the generations for them.
  zh: 堕落把邪恶带入世界，但对他们来说，罪并不会代代相传。
- start: 750.999
  end: 753.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a different view of anthropology again.
  zh: 这又是一种不同的人类学观点。
- start: 753.641
  end: 757.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So every baby is born with a clean slate.
  zh: 所以每个婴儿出生时都是一张白纸。
- start: 757.924
  end: 766.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And then, if you sin, you are following in the footsteps of Adam, but it's not that Adam's sin is held against you, just your own.
  zh: 然后，如果你犯罪，你是在跟随亚当的脚步，但不是亚当的罪被归到你身上，只是你自己的罪。
- start: 766.431
  end: 768.392
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's kind of how they would look at it.
  zh: 所以这就是他们看待这个问题的方式。
- start: 768.953
  end: 775.697
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, early on, Augustine seems to want to say that humans have some kind of free will.
  zh: 现在，早期的奥古斯丁似乎想说人类有某种自由意志。
- start: 775.918
  end: 781.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He seems reluctant in his early writings to completely abandon the idea of free will.
  zh: 在他早期的著作中，他似乎不愿完全放弃自由意志的观念。
- start: 781.681
  end: 788.005
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says it's theoretically possible for a person to be perfect, but no one ever has.
  zh: 他说理论上一个人可能达到完美，但从未有人做到过。
- start: 789.551
  end: 795.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If it were ever to happen, it would be possible only because it would happen by the power of God.
  zh: 如果真的发生，那只可能是因为神的力量使之发生。
- start: 795.212
  end: 800.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So even here he's saying that it would be an act of God.
  zh: 所以即使在这里，他也在说这将是神的作为。
- start: 800.913
  end: 808.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But he's admitting that since the human will is created by God, it must have the potential for good.
  zh: 但他承认，既然人的意志是神创造的，它必定有行善的潜力。
- start: 808.915
  end: 815.016
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God doesn't create evil, so God can't create or wouldn't create an evil human will.
  zh: 神不创造邪恶，所以神不能也不会创造邪恶的人类意志。
- start: 815.016
  end: 819.157
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So because the human will is created by God, it must be good initially.
  zh: 所以因为人的意志是神创造的，它最初必定是好的。
- start: 819.36
  end: 827.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So here's where he says the human has the ability to choose what is good, but not the ability to do it.
  zh: 所以这里他说人有能力选择善，但没有能力行善。
- start: 828.164
  end: 837.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so he, Augustine sort of makes this distinction between willing or wanting to do the good, but not being able to actually do it.
  zh: 所以奥古斯丁在愿意或想要行善，和实际能够行善之间做了区分。
- start: 838.409
  end: 850.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So to will something is in our power, in the sense of to want it or to wish it, but to actually do it is not in our power  That requires God's power.
  zh: 所以意愿某事在我们的能力范围内，就是想要或希望它，但实际去做并不在我们的能力范围内，那需要神的力量。
- start: 851.612
  end: 858.216
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He says no one can be confident, meaning like have self-control, except God give him the gift.
  zh: 他说没有人能有信心，意思是有自制力，除非神赐予他这个恩赐。
- start: 858.216
  end: 865.881
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you have self-control, if you exercise discipline, it's only because God gave you the ability to do it.
  zh: 所以如果你有自制力，如果你能自律，那只是因为神给了你这样做的能力。
- start: 866.501
  end: 871.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So here's the difference between what Pelagius is saying and what Augustine is saying.
  zh: 所以这就是伯拉纠所说的和奥古斯丁所说的区别。
- start: 871.004
  end: 876.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Pelagius is saying humans have free will from birth, from the start.
  zh: 伯拉纠说人从出生起，从一开始就有自由意志。
- start: 877.617
  end: 884.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Augustine is saying, humans are born with a will that is broken, it's fallen.
  zh: 奥古斯丁说，人生来就有一个破碎的意志，它是堕落的。
- start: 885.26
  end: 890.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it is God's grace that grants freedom.
  zh: 是神的恩典赐予自由。
- start: 891.623
  end: 903.048
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So, for Augustine, the human will is born broken, grace must fix it, if we're ever to do the right thing, if we're ever to do the good.
  zh: 所以，对奥古斯丁来说，人的意志生来就是破碎的，恩典必须修复它，如果我们要做正确的事，如果我们要行善。
- start: 903.048
  end: 907.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So grace, for Augustine,  It is a power.
  zh: 所以对奥古斯丁来说，恩典是一种力量。
- start: 907.999
  end: 909.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's a force.
  zh: 它是一种力量。
- start: 909.4
  end: 914.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's the power to do the right thing that God grants to a person.
  zh: 它是神赐给人行善的能力。
- start: 914.943
  end: 916.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It's empowerment.
  zh: 它是赋予能力。
- start: 917.024
  end: 921.326
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, the Holy Spirit is associated with the power of God's grace.
  zh: 事实上，圣灵与神恩典的力量相关联。
- start: 921.326
  end: 933.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The Holy Spirit is given to the believer to move him or her to love God, to reorient him or her toward God, and to empower him or her to act on that love.
  zh: 圣灵赐给信徒，使他们爱神，重新朝向神，并赋予他们能力去实践那爱。
- start: 933.792
  end: 937.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: But without that power,  It cannot be done.
  zh: 但没有那力量，这是无法做到的。
- start: 937.508
  end: 942.009
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So any righteousness is ultimately a work of God.
  zh: 所以任何义行最终都是神的工作。
- start: 943.29
  end: 951.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So for Augustine, grace sanctifies, grace justifies making good works possible.
  zh: 所以对奥古斯丁来说，恩典使人成圣，恩典使人称义，使善行成为可能。
- start: 951.972
  end: 958.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: In fact, justification and sanctification are synonymous for Augustine, or at least they're concurrent.
  zh: 事实上，对奥古斯丁来说，称义和成圣是同义的，或者至少是同时发生的。
- start: 958.613
  end: 963.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Because remember that this is a journey, it's a process.
  zh: 因为要记住，这是一个旅程，是一个过程。
- start: 963.626
  end: 968.99
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So even conversion is not an arrival, but it's the beginning of the journey.
  zh: 所以即使是归信也不是终点，而是旅程的开始。
- start: 969.111
  end: 975.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So that sanctification and justification are this journey or this process.
  zh: 所以成圣和称义就是这个旅程或这个过程。
- start: 976.677
  end: 984.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: And it is a process that will not be complete in this life because we will not become perfect in this life.
  zh: 这是一个在今生无法完成的过程，因为我们在今生无法达到完美。
- start: 985.365
  end: 990.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: So without grace, the human will is only free to sin.
  zh: 所以没有恩典，人的意志只有犯罪的自由。
- start: 990.484
  end: 992.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It is grace that frees the will.
  zh: 是恩典使意志获得自由。
- start: 992.906
  end: 994.627
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Again, notice the difference.
  zh: 再次注意这个区别。
- start: 994.627
  end: 997.689
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: For Pelagius, you're born with free will.
  zh: 对伯拉纠来说，你生来就有自由意志。
- start: 998.21
  end: 1008.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For Augustine, you're born with a will in bondage, and grace must free your will, if we're ever going to do anything good.
  zh: 对奥古斯丁来说，你生来就有一个被束缚的意志，如果我们要做任何善事，恩典必须使你的意志获得自由。
- start: 1008.317
  end: 1019.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So grace is God acting on the human spirit, the rational soul, in order that it may believe and do what is right.
  zh: 所以恩典是神在人的灵、理性的灵魂上的作为，使它能相信并行正确的事。
- start: 1021.133
  end: 1026.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For Augustine, believing seems to be synonymous with accepting that grace.
  zh: 对奥古斯丁来说，相信似乎等同于接受那恩典。
- start: 1028.354
  end: 1031.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so one believes and receives grace.
  zh: 所以一个人相信并接受恩典。
- start: 1032.415
  end: 1043.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And even the act of accepting the grace, which would seem like an act of free will, even that is an act of God.
  zh: 甚至接受恩典的行为，看似是自由意志的行为，但即使那也是神的作为。
- start: 1043.017
  end: 1049.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It is even God who gives the elect the ability to accept grace.
  zh: 甚至是神赐给选民接受恩典的能力。
- start: 1051.443
  end: 1056.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the will is only free to believe by the persuasion of God.
  zh: 所以意志只有通过神的劝导才能自由地相信。
- start: 1056.706
  end: 1062.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, I know that begs the question, why then do some believe and others do not?
  zh: 现在，我知道这引出了一个问题，为什么有些人相信而其他人不信？
- start: 1062.611
  end: 1070.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If, in fact, believing itself is something that God has to give you the power to do.
  zh: 如果事实上，相信本身就是神必须赐给你能力去做的事。
- start: 1070.477
  end: 1072.698
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Well, Augustine says, it's a mystery.
  zh: 好吧，奥古斯丁说，这是一个奥秘。
- start: 1073.28
  end: 1079.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a mystery why some believe and others do not, but it has something to do with God's election.
  zh: 为什么有些人相信而其他人不信，这是一个奥秘，但这与神的拣选有关。
- start: 1080.166
  end: 1087.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And for Augustine, foreknowledge, predestination, election, these are all basically the same thing.
  zh: 对奥古斯丁来说，预知、预定、拣选，这些基本上都是同一件事。
- start: 1087.432
  end: 1100.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Augustine will acknowledge that God wants everyone to be saved, but he says that God does not call everyone to be saved, so not all are among the elect.
  zh: 奥古斯丁承认神希望每个人都得救，但他说神并没有呼召每个人得救，所以并非所有人都是选民。
- start: 1100.939
  end: 1109.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can imagine the Pelagians are going to say, hey, Augustine, how about that Bible passage that says God does not wish for any to perish, right?
  zh: 你可以想象伯拉纠派会说：「嘿，奥古斯丁，圣经上说神不愿有一人沉沦，这段经文怎么解释？」
- start: 1109.801
  end: 1111.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So he's got an answer for that.
  zh: 所以他对此有一个回答。
- start: 1112.062
  end: 1115.863
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the answer, again, separates the wanting from the doing.
  zh: 这个回答再次将愿望与行动分开。
- start: 1115.863
  end: 1118.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God wants everyone to be saved.
  zh: 神希望每个人都得救。
- start: 1118.184
  end: 1119.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Bible tells us that.
  zh: 圣经告诉我们这一点。
- start: 1119.864
  end: 1126.326
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But not all are saved in the end because God does not call everyone to be saved.
  zh: 但最终并非所有人都得救，因为神并没有呼召每个人得救。
- start: 1126.326
  end: 1128.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not all are among the elect.
  zh: 并非所有人都是选民。
- start: 1128.107
  end: 1138.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So it's really the elect  who are the ones who are given the grace to believe and then act on that belief.
  zh: 所以真正的选民是那些被赐予恩典去相信，然后按照那信仰行动的人。
- start: 1138.605
  end: 1159.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So Pelagius and Augustine go back and forth writing documents, arguing against each other, until Pelagius is summoned to a synod in the eastern city of, I always have to look at the spelling of this twice, Diospolis.
  zh: 所以伯拉纠和奥古斯丁来回写文章，互相争论，直到伯拉纠被召到东方城市迪奥斯波利斯的一个主教会议上，我总是要看两遍这个城市的拼写。
- start: 1162.073
  end: 1178.583
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The synod of Theophilus, which is actually the town of Lyda, the year is 415. Now imagine, here's a westerner, Pelagius, summoned to an eastern council.
  zh: 提阿非罗主教会议，实际上是在吕大镇，时间是415年。现在想象一下，一个西方人伯拉纠被召到一个东方会议。
- start: 1178.583
  end: 1185.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's in the east, but there's a language barrier because his accusers are speaking Greek.
  zh: 他在东方，但有语言障碍，因为他的指控者说希腊语。
- start: 1189.381
  end: 1194.424
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He is accused of teaching that a person could be saved without God's grace.
  zh: 他被指控教导人可以不需要神的恩典就能得救。
- start: 1196.266
  end: 1208.494
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But his accusers didn't actually show up, and so he was able to deny the charge, and perhaps with the aid of the language barrier, he was acquitted.
  zh: 但他的指控者实际上没有出现，所以他能够否认指控，也许在语言障碍的帮助下，他被宣告无罪。
- start: 1209.174
  end: 1220.119
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But Augustine realized that  The whole story had not been told at the Synod because Pelagius had not been clear about what he meant by grace.
  zh: 但奥古斯丁意识到，整个故事在主教会议上并没有被完全讲述，因为伯拉纠没有清楚地说明他所指的恩典是什么意思。
- start: 1220.66
  end: 1225.923
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, Pelagius is defining grace differently than Augustine would.
  zh: 换句话说，伯拉纠对恩典的定义与奥古斯丁的不同。
- start: 1226.304
  end: 1234.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For Pelagius, grace is the things God gives you so you can make the right choices.
  zh: 对伯拉纠来说，恩典是神给你的东西，使你能做出正确的选择。
- start: 1234.309
  end: 1240.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, the law, the Ten Commandments, the example and teaching of Christ.
  zh: 换句话说，律法、十诫、基督的榜样和教导。
- start: 1242.335
  end: 1244.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's everything you need to make the right choices.
  zh: 这就是你做出正确选择所需的一切。
- start: 1244.917
  end: 1248.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: God has given you grace, now make the right choice.
  zh: 神已经给了你恩典，现在做出正确的选择。
- start: 1248.619
  end: 1250.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You have all the information you need.
  zh: 你已经有了所需的所有信息。
- start: 1250.8
  end: 1253.942
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so see, grace is reduced to information.
  zh: 所以你看，恩典被简化为信息。
- start: 1253.942
  end: 1255.182
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's passive.
  zh: 它是被动的。
- start: 1255.703
  end: 1259.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But for Augustine, grace is active.
  zh: 但对奥古斯丁来说，恩典是主动的。
- start: 1259.285
  end: 1262.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not just information, it's a power.
  zh: 它不仅仅是信息，它是一种力量。
- start: 1264.648
  end: 1269.671
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's God's empowering love given to us  by the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 它是圣灵赐给我们的神赋予能力的爱。
- start: 1269.671
  end: 1272.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a medicine that heals our human nature.
  zh: 它是治愈我们人性的良药。
- start: 1272.772
  end: 1280.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We're born with a sick, fallen human will and human nature, and grace is a medicine that heals us or that fixes it.
  zh: 我们生来就有一个病态的、堕落的人类意志和人性，恩典是治愈我们或修复它的良药。
- start: 1281.413
  end: 1284.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so grace is active, it's a power.
  zh: 所以恩典是主动的，是一种力量。
- start: 1285.514
  end: 1289.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For Pelagius, grace is only external to us.
  zh: 对伯拉纠来说，恩典只是外在于我们的。
- start: 1289.155
  end: 1292.896
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You know, here I am trying to make the right choices, but I have information.
  zh: 你知道，我在这里试图做出正确的选择，但我有信息。
- start: 1292.896
  end: 1295.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I've got the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus.
  zh: 我有十诫和耶稣的教导。
- start: 1295.765
  end: 1300.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: For Augustine, though, grace is not only external to us, but it's internal, too.
  zh: 但对奥古斯丁来说，恩典不仅是外在于我们的，也是内在的。
- start: 1300.528
  end: 1307.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It works on you from the inside, working to restore the image of God in you.
  zh: 它从内部作用于你，努力恢复你里面神的形象。
- start: 1308.232
  end: 1313.596
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, notice the very different understandings of grace here.
  zh: 所以，注意这里对恩典的理解有很大的不同。
- start: 1313.596
  end: 1317.157
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Religious grace is information.
  zh: 伯拉纠的恩典是信息。
- start: 1317.418
  end: 1321.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's external only, and it's passive.
  zh: 它只是外在的，而且是被动的。
- start: 1321.54
  end: 1324.962
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Whereas the human will is active, or religious.
  zh: 而人的意志是主动的，或者说是虔诚的。
- start: 1325.953
  end: 1333.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But for Augustine, grace is active, and the human will is passive.
  zh: 但对奥古斯丁来说，恩典是主动的，而人的意志是被动的。
- start: 1334.376
  end: 1335.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Makes sense?
  zh: 明白了吗？
- start: 1336.536
  end: 1339.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, two very different ways of looking at grace.
  zh: 所以，这是两种非常不同的看待恩典的方式。
- start: 1339.317
  end: 1341.738
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, well, yeah, question there?
  zh: 好的，嗯，有问题吗？
- start: 1341.778
  end: 1343.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He was charged with what, though?
  zh: 他被指控什么呢？
- start: 1343.859
  end: 1348.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He was charged with teaching that a person could be saved without God's grace.
  zh: 他被指控教导人可以不需要神的恩典就能得救。
- start: 1349.372
  end: 1356.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, thank you for making me say that again, because let's say that again now that we've defined the two different ways of looking at grace.
  zh: 所以，谢谢你让我再说一遍，因为现在我们已经定义了看待恩典的两种不同方式，让我们再说一遍。
- start: 1356.72
  end: 1362.666
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because Pelagius is charged with having taught that a person could be saved without grace.
  zh: 因为伯拉纠被指控教导人可以不需要恩典就能得救。
- start: 1362.666
  end: 1365.208
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Pelagius says, no, I never said that.
  zh: 而伯拉纠说，不，我从未说过那样的话。
- start: 1365.208
  end: 1367.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I think a person absolutely needs God's grace.
  zh: 我认为一个人绝对需要神的恩典。
- start: 1368.246
  end: 1375.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But he's defining grace in this very passive, sort of external only information sense.
  zh: 但他对恩典的定义是非常被动的，只是外在的信息意义。
- start: 1375.509
  end: 1377.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's not defining grace the way Augustine would.
  zh: 他对恩典的定义不是奥古斯丁的方式。
- start: 1377.79
  end: 1389.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And Augustine wants to say, wait a minute, we need more than just information, we need grace as that empowering love from God, the medicine for the soul.
  zh: 而奥古斯丁想说，等一下，我们需要的不仅仅是信息，我们需要恩典作为神赋予能力的爱，作为灵魂的良药。
- start: 1391.92
  end: 1394.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So anyway, Pelagius is off the hook.
  zh: 总之，伯拉纠逃过一劫。
- start: 1394.741
  end: 1403.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's a synod of Diospolis in 415, but in 416 local synods were held in North Africa, which condemned him.
  zh: 这是415年的迪奥斯波利斯主教会议，但在416年，北非举行了地方主教会议，谴责了他。
- start: 1403.726
  end: 1416.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And of course it was easy to get the North Africans to go against Pelagius because not only does Pelagius have affinities with Arianism, but it has affinities with Donatism as well.
  zh: 当然，让北非人反对伯拉纠很容易，因为伯拉纠不仅与亚略主义有相似之处，而且与多纳徒派也有相似之处。
- start: 1416.972
  end: 1421.374
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so it looks kind of like Donatism.
  zh: 所以它看起来有点像多纳徒派。
- start: 1422.746
  end: 1435.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Augustine wrote a document called On the Proceedings of Pelagius in 417, and sort of spelled out the reasons why Pelagius should be condemned as a heretic.
  zh: 奥古斯丁在417年写了一份名为《论伯拉纠的诉讼》的文件，阐述了为什么伯拉纠应该被定为异端的原因。
- start: 1435.41
  end: 1449.774
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And of course he was condemned in North Africa, but the North African synods were local synods, and they really only tied the Synod of Diaspolis, which acquitted him, they didn't override it or trump it.
  zh: 当然，他在北非被定罪，但北非的主教会议是地方性的，它们实际上只是与宣告他无罪的迪奥斯波利斯主教会议打成平手，并没有推翻或超越它。
- start: 1450.228
  end: 1452.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so we have more documents back and forth.
  zh: 所以我们有更多来回的文件。
- start: 1452.91
  end: 1459.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Pelagius wrote on the freedom of the will and Augustine wrote on the grace of Christ.
  zh: 伯拉纠写了关于意志自由的文章，奥古斯丁写了关于基督恩典的文章。
- start: 1459.534
  end: 1475.718
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in these cases where we have these back and forths of war of words with each one writing documents,  Usually, the Pelagian document is no longer extant, but fragments of it are preserved in Augustine's response to it.
  zh: 在这些来回的文字战争中，每个人都写文件，通常伯拉纠派的文件已经不存在了，但其片段保存在奥古斯丁对它的回应中。
- start: 1475.718
  end: 1485.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, you know, Augustine will say, well, Pelagius says this, and I'm going to say this, and so we kind of know what Pelagius said by reading Augustine's response.
  zh: 所以，你知道，奥古斯丁会说，嗯，伯拉纠说这个，我要说这个，所以我们通过阅读奥古斯丁的回应可以大致知道伯拉纠说了什么。
- start: 1485.644
  end: 1488.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But, you know, as always, you can sort of take that with a grain of salt.
  zh: 但是，你知道，像往常一样，你可以对此持保留态度。
- start: 1489.704
  end: 1494.326
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, at this point, an appeal was made to the Bishop of Rome.
  zh: 所以，在这一点上，有人向罗马主教提出上诉。
- start: 1494.626
  end: 1499.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so now, again, they're looking to the Bishop of Rome to solve the problem.
  zh: 所以现在，他们再次寻求罗马主教来解决这个问题。
- start: 1499.549
  end: 1511.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: At this time, the Bishop of Rome was Innocent I. Innocent I excommunicated all Pelagians, lest they should recant their Pelagianism.
  zh: 当时，罗马主教是英诺森一世。英诺森一世将所有伯拉纠派逐出教会，除非他们放弃伯拉纠主义。
- start: 1511.754
  end: 1517.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But then Innocent died, and the next pope was kind of undecided, didn't know what to do about it.
  zh: 但随后英诺森去世了，下一任教宗有些犹豫不决，不知道该如何处理这个问题。
- start: 1518.174
  end: 1519.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So the Emperor steps in.
  zh: 所以皇帝介入了。
- start: 1519.775
  end: 1527.141
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is the same Emperor we saw earlier who issued an edict against the Donatists.
  zh: 这就是我们之前看到的那位颁布法令反对多纳徒派的皇帝。
- start: 1527.141
  end: 1534.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is the Western Emperor Honorius, and this is in 418 now.
  zh: 这是西方皇帝霍诺里乌斯，现在是418年。
- start: 1534.967
  end: 1539.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The Emperor steps in and banishes all Pelagians from Rome.
  zh: 皇帝介入并将所有伯拉纠派驱逐出罗马。
- start: 1540.686
  end: 1589.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Pelagius himself was declared a heretic at a council in Carthage in 418 and died in 420. Now, Pelagius died, but the baton was picked up by a guy named Julian,  Julian of Meclanum was a follower of Pelagius, another Pelagian, sort of led the followers of Pelagius.
  zh: 伯拉纠本人在418年的迦太基会议上被宣布为异端，并于420年去世。现在，伯拉纠去世了，但接力棒被一个名叫朱利安的人接过，梅克拉努姆的朱利安是伯拉纠的追随者，另一个伯拉纠派，某种程度上领导了伯拉纠的追随者。
- start: 1589.606
  end: 1596.71
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He wrote a document against Augustine, Augustine wrote a document against Julian, back and forth.
  zh: 他写了一份反对奥古斯丁的文件，奥古斯丁写了一份反对朱利安的文件，来来回回。
- start: 1596.931
  end: 1615.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like Pelagius, Julian was accusing Augustine of being too influenced  by the Manichees, influenced by his youth, and accusing Augustine of being unable to see sexuality as anything other than dirty and sinful.
  zh: 像伯拉纠一样，朱利安指责奥古斯丁受摩尼教影响太深，受他年轻时期的影响，并指责奥古斯丁无法将性视为除了肮脏和罪恶之外的任何东西。
- start: 1617.909
  end: 1625.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The question is, how does sin become attributed to the person?
  zh: 问题是，罪是如何归因于个人的？
- start: 1625.375
  end: 1631.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you're Pelagius and his followers, you are responsible for the sin you commit.
  zh: 如果你是伯拉纠和他的追随者，你要为你所犯的罪负责。
- start: 1631.28
  end: 1639.303
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But if you're Augustine,  You're also responsible for original sin, and that comes through sexuality.
  zh: 但如果你是奥古斯丁，你也要为原罪负责，而这是通过性来传递的。
- start: 1639.303
  end: 1645.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: You said Julian, he accused Augustine of what now?
  zh: 你说朱利安，他现在指责奥古斯丁什么？
- start: 1645.945
  end: 1654.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He accused Augustine of being too influenced by his youth to be able to see sexuality as anything other than sinful.
  zh: 他指责奥古斯丁受他年轻时期的影响太深，无法将性视为除了罪恶之外的任何东西。
- start: 1656.969
  end: 1671.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Remember, Augustine's own history includes his own disappointment with himself over his inability to exercise self-control over his sexuality.
  zh: 记住，奥古斯丁自己的历史包括他对自己无法控制自己的性欲感到失望。
- start: 1671.102
  end: 1678.748
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Eventually, when he moved to North Africa, he was able to live as a celibate person, but it was an all-or-nothing proposition for him.
  zh: 最终，当他搬到北非时，他能够过上独身生活，但对他来说这是一个非此即彼的选择。
- start: 1681.792
  end: 1683.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Bottom line is this, though.
  zh: 但底线是这样的。
- start: 1683.595
  end: 1696.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Julian is basically saying the same thing that Pelagius had before him, and that is that if there is no free will,  Then there is no moral responsibility, and there is no need to even try to be good.
  zh: 朱利安基本上在说与伯拉纠之前所说的相同的事，那就是如果没有自由意志，那么就没有道德责任，甚至没有必要尝试做好人。
- start: 1696.102
  end: 1708.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you're saying that the human will is not free, then you are ultimately relieving every human of responsibility for his or her actions.
  zh: 如果你说人的意志不是自由的，那么你最终就是在解除每个人对自己行为的责任。
- start: 1708.348
  end: 1714.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because every person can simply say, well, I guess doing the right thing is not my charism.
  zh: 因为每个人都可以简单地说，好吧，我猜做正确的事不是我的恩赐。
- start: 1714.472
  end: 1718.053
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's not something I've been given the power to do by God.
  zh: 这不是神赐给我能力去做的事。
- start: 1720.82
  end: 1724.261
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: But at this point, it was pretty much a done deal.
  zh: 但在这一点上，事情基本上已经成定局了。
- start: 1724.261
  end: 1734.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: Pelagius and Julian were condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Now, we haven't talked about the Council of Ephesus yet.
  zh: 伯拉纠和朱利安在431年的以弗所会议上被定罪。现在，我们还没有讨论过以弗所会议。
- start: 1734.385
  end: 1735.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We will next week.
  zh: 我们下周会讨论。
- start: 1735.905
  end: 1740.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the Council of Ephesus is the third ecumenical council.
  zh: 但以弗所会议是第三次大公会议。
- start: 1740.067
  end: 1744.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It was held in the year 431 in the city of Ephesus.
  zh: 它于431年在以弗所城举行。
- start: 1744.328
  end: 1752.231
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And because it was believed that they taught that infants did not need baptism, they were condemned as heretics.
  zh: 因为人们认为他们教导婴儿不需要受洗，所以他们被定为异端。
- start: 1753.651
  end: 1760.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, you'll notice that there are some unused squares on the board here.
  zh: 现在，你会注意到这里的板子上有一些未使用的方格。
- start: 1760.174
  end: 1774.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So we need to talk about two intermediate positions  that are both, I think, attempts at finding a middle way between Augustine's all grace and Pelagius' all will.
  zh: 所以我们需要讨论两个中间立场，我认为这两个立场都是试图在奥古斯丁的全恩典和伯拉纠的全意志之间找到一条中间道路。
- start: 1774.932
  end: 1785.821
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Because remember, for Augustine, grace is active, but the human will is passive.
  zh: 因为请记住，对奥古斯丁来说，恩典是主动的，但人的意志是被动的。
- start: 1787.022
  end: 1791.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And for Pelagius, there's no room on that side, but for Pelagius and his followers, it's the opposite.
  zh: 对伯拉纠来说，那一边没有余地，但对伯拉纠和他的追随者来说，情况正好相反。
- start: 1791.641
  end: 1794.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's the human will that's active, but grace is passive.
  zh: 是人的意志是主动的，但恩典是被动的。
- start: 1794.783
  end: 1799.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace is reduced to just all the information you need to know to make the right choices, right?
  zh: 恩典被简化为你需要知道的所有信息，以做出正确的选择，对吗？
- start: 1800.067
  end: 1806.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So what we have here are a couple of intermediate conditions that, as I said, I think are an attempt at finding a middle way.
  zh: 所以我们这里有几个中间条件，正如我所说，我认为这是试图找到一条中间道路。
- start: 1808.412
  end: 1826.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: And I'm gonna start with, let's see here, I'm gonna start with John Cassian,  who represents a position that we call the semi-Pelagian position.
  zh: 我要从，让我看看，我要从约翰·卡西安开始，他代表了我们称之为半伯拉纠主义的立场。
- start: 1826.533
  end: 1831.076
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: And ultimately what that means is he's not quite as Pelagian as Pelagians.
  zh: 最终这意味着他不像伯拉纠派那样完全是伯拉纠主义的。
- start: 1831.076
  end: 1836.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, John Cassian's dates are 360 to 435. And I'll tell you right now, he is not considered a heretic.
  zh: 现在，约翰·卡西安的生卒年是360年到435年。我现在就告诉你，他不被认为是异端。
- start: 1836.54
  end: 1858.918
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact,  John Cassian was asked to write an important document on the Incarnation by the Bishop of Rome, and he wrote some other things that are considered orthodox.
  zh: 事实上，约翰·卡西安被罗马主教要求写一份关于道成肉身的重要文件，他还写了一些被认为是正统的其他东西。
- start: 1858.918
  end: 1867.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, he's not considered a heretic, but he doesn't quite get it, almost not quite.
  zh: 所以，他不被认为是异端，但他并没有完全理解，几乎差一点。
- start: 1867.883
  end: 1870.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Basically, Cassian was also a monk.
  zh: 基本上，卡西安也是一位修士。
- start: 1871.841
  end: 1887.157
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He spent some time in a monastery in Bethlehem, spent some time in Egypt learning from the desert monks and brought that kind of monasticism back to Gaul and started monasteries there.
  zh: 他在伯利恒的修道院待了一段时间，在埃及跟沙漠修士学习了一段时间，然后把那种修道主义带回高卢，在那里开始建立修道院。
- start: 1887.157
  end: 1893.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Cassian understood Augustine's  The definition of grace.
  zh: 卡西安理解奥古斯丁对恩典的定义。
- start: 1893.585
  end: 1901.066
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He agreed with Augustine that a person needs grace, that grace is a power that people need.
  zh: 他同意奥古斯丁的观点，即一个人需要恩典，恩典是人们需要的力量。
- start: 1906.748
  end: 1914.21
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yet he disagreed with Augustine on the idea of grace being irresistible.
  zh: 然而，他不同意奥古斯丁关于恩典不可抗拒的观点。
- start: 1914.69
  end: 1919.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In other words, he believed that we have the free will to reject God's grace.
  zh: 换句话说，他认为我们有自由意志来拒绝神的恩典。
- start: 1921.107
  end: 1926.508
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's how we explain why some people are ultimately saved and others are not.
  zh: 这就是我们解释为什么有些人最终得救而其他人没有得救的原因。
- start: 1926.508
  end: 1931.049
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's because God's grace comes to all, but some people reject it.
  zh: 这是因为神的恩典临到所有人，但有些人拒绝了它。
- start: 1931.049
  end: 1936.81
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So for him, grace is resistible.
  zh: 所以对他来说，恩典是可以抗拒的。
- start: 1936.81
  end: 1941.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Is that an I-B-L-E or an A-B-L-E? I can never remember that.
  zh: 那是I-B-L-E还是A-B-L-E？我总是记不住。
- start: 1942.931
  end: 1943.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It doesn't matter.
  zh: 这无关紧要。
- start: 1943.711
  end: 1945.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can resist it.
  zh: 你可以抗拒它。
- start: 1947.912
  end: 1959.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in fact, what he said is that  The grace of God and the human will cooperate in the relationship between the person and God.
  zh: 事实上，他说的是神的恩典和人的意志在人与神的关系中是合作的。
- start: 1961.126
  end: 1975.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, grace and will cooperate, but he left open the possibility that the human will can take the initiative in the relationship with God.
  zh: 所以，恩典和意志是合作的，但他留下了人的意志可以在与神的关系中主动采取行动的可能性。
- start: 1975.336
  end: 1980.039
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The human will might move first, even without God's grace.
  zh: 人的意志可能先行动，甚至不需要神的恩典。
- start: 1982.369
  end: 1986.23
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is why his way of looking at it will be rejected.
  zh: 这就是为什么他的看法会被拒绝。
- start: 1990.572
  end: 1999.695
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The human will might move first, which then basically means that it is God's grace cooperating with the human will.
  zh: 人的意志可能先行动，这基本上意味着是神的恩典在与人的意志合作。
- start: 1999.755
  end: 2002.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It sort of makes the human will primary.
  zh: 这某种程度上使人的意志成为主要的。
- start: 2002.116
  end: 2003.836
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So you see what's happening here.
  zh: 所以你看到这里发生了什么。
- start: 2003.836
  end: 2008.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: A little bit too much free will for the mainstream church here.
  zh: 对主流教会来说，这里的自由意志有点太多了。
- start: 2010.65
  end: 2012.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Again, he's not a heretic, though.
  zh: 再说一遍，他不是异端。
- start: 2012.772
  end: 2016.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This is not the position that will come to be accepted.
  zh: 这不是最终会被接受的立场。
- start: 2016.894
  end: 2026.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, you might have seen this coming, especially if you got the handout from me, but this position is what we call the semi-Augustinian position.
  zh: 现在，你可能已经预料到了，特别是如果你拿到了我的讲义，这个立场就是我们所说的半奥古斯丁主义立场。
- start: 2029.342
  end: 2037.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Not quite as Augustinian as Augustine, but a little bit more Augustinian than the semi-Pelagians or the Pelagians.
  zh: 不像奥古斯丁那样完全是奥古斯丁主义的，但比半伯拉纠主义者或伯拉纠主义者更接近奥古斯丁主义。
- start: 2039.401
  end: 2050.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: This position is characterized, I guess, by a bishop, Caesarius of Arles.
  zh: 我猜，这个立场的代表是阿尔勒的凯撒流主教。
- start: 2050.812
  end: 2072.553
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's bishop of that same town where the synod of Arles was held, but his dates are 470 to 542.  The semi-Augustinian position accepts everything that Augustine had to offer except the idea of predestination.
  zh: 他是阿尔勒主教会议举行地的主教，但他的生卒年是470年到542年。半奥古斯丁主义立场接受奥古斯丁提出的一切，除了预定论的观念。
- start: 2090.859
  end: 2095.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace is still irresistible in this understanding.
  zh: 在这种理解中，恩典仍然是不可抗拒的。
- start: 2096.961
  end: 2098.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace is resistible.
  zh: 恩典是可以抗拒的。
- start: 2101.343
  end: 2103.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You can resist grace.
  zh: 你可以抗拒恩典。
- start: 2109.085
  end: 2114.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And what we have here is a cooperation of grace and will.
  zh: 我们这里所看到的是恩典和意志的合作。
- start: 2114.707
  end: 2116.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Stop thinking it's a TV show.
  zh: 别再把它当成电视节目了。
- start: 2120.67
  end: 2127.497
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, you're saying to yourself, wait a minute, that looks exactly like the semi-Augustinian position, what's the difference?
  zh: 所以，你在对自己说，等一下，这看起来和半奥古斯丁主义立场完全一样，有什么区别？
- start: 2127.497
  end: 2129.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The difference is this.
  zh: 区别在于这一点。
- start: 2129.339
  end: 2134.943
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: With the semi-Augustinian position, the human will cannot take the initiative.
  zh: 在半奥古斯丁主义立场中，人的意志不能主动采取行动。
- start: 2135.124
  end: 2138.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace must always take the initiative.
  zh: 恩典必须始终主动采取行动。
- start: 2138.247
  end: 2141.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, it's the human will cooperating with grace.
  zh: 因此，是人的意志在与恩典合作。
- start: 2141.889
  end: 2146.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace must move first, or it's not going to happen.
  zh: 恩典必须先行动，否则就不会发生。
- start: 2146.232
  end: 2153.957
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In fact, if you want to think in terms of a prevenient grace, you'd be right on.
  zh: 事实上，如果你想用先行恩典的角度来思考，你就对了。
- start: 2154.758
  end: 2156.039
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace must move first.
  zh: 恩典必须先行动。
- start: 2156.039
  end: 2160.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And of course, that's Augustine's understanding of grace as well.
  zh: 当然，这也是奥古斯丁对恩典的理解。
- start: 2162.323
  end: 2165.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But what makes it different from Augustine is that you can resist grace.
  zh: 但与奥古斯丁不同的是，你可以抗拒恩典。
- start: 2165.946
  end: 2170.268
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So grace might come to you and you might shun it, you might resist it.
  zh: 所以恩典可能来到你身边，你可能会回避它，你可能会抗拒它。
- start: 2172.512
  end: 2182.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the idea here is that grace is offered to all and there is enough free will that allows us to accept it or reject it.
  zh: 但这里的观点是，恩典被提供给所有人，而且我们有足够的自由意志来接受或拒绝它。
- start: 2183.099
  end: 2193.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: See, the problem with Augustine's concept of election  is that it ultimately leads to a limited atonement.
  zh: 你看，奥古斯丁的拣选概念的问题在于它最终导致有限的赎罪。
- start: 2194.33
  end: 2195.831
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is what I mean.
  zh: 这就是我的意思。
- start: 2195.871
  end: 2215.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you assume that election is what determines who is saved and who is not, that begs the question, well then, is the cross somehow ineffective for those who are not among the elect?
  zh: 如果你假设拣选决定了谁得救谁不得救，那就引出了一个问题，那么，对那些不在选民之列的人来说，十字架是否在某种程度上无效？
- start: 2216.909
  end: 2226.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the only answer to that question that doesn't leave the cross lagging is to say that, well, Jesus ultimately didn't die for those who are not the elect.
  zh: 对这个问题唯一不会使十字架失效的回答是说，嗯，耶稣最终没有为那些不是选民的人而死。
- start: 2226.111
  end: 2227.771
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That's a limited atonement.
  zh: 这就是有限的赎罪。
- start: 2227.771
  end: 2230.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The atonement is limited only to the elect.
  zh: 赎罪仅限于选民。
- start: 2230.832
  end: 2243.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if you start with this, with a true Augustinian election, you necessarily end up with a doctrine of limited atonement that says Jesus only died for the elect.
  zh: 所以如果你从这里开始，从真正的奥古斯丁式拣选开始，你必然会得出一个有限赎罪的教义，即耶稣只为选民而死。
- start: 2244.252
  end: 2246.314
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so these guys don't want to say that.
  zh: 所以这些人不想这么说。
- start: 2246.314
  end: 2258.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: They want to say, no, Christ died for all, grace is offered to all, but we have enough free will that allows us to either accept or reject grace.
  zh: 他们想说，不，基督为所有人而死，恩典被提供给所有人，但我们有足够的自由意志来接受或拒绝恩典。
- start: 2258.103
  end: 2264.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So grace is resistible, but for the semi-Augustinian position, grace must move first.
  zh: 所以恩典是可以抗拒的，但对半奥古斯丁主义立场来说，恩典必须先行动。
- start: 2264.989
  end: 2269.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the human will may choose to cooperate with that grace.
  zh: 而人的意志可以选择与那恩典合作。
- start: 2271.892
  end: 2317.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Now, in the year 529, so 99 years after Augustine's death, in 529, the Council of Orange, spell it like the fruit and you'll get it right, the Council of Orange, or the color, in the year 529, now actually, just in the interest of full disclosure, Caesarius of Arles was the  The Council of Orange accepted the semi-Augustinian position as the Orthodox Catholic position.
  zh: 现在，在529年，也就是奥古斯丁去世99年后，529年的奥兰治会议，拼写像水果一样你就能拼对，奥兰治会议，或者说是颜色，在529年，实际上，为了完全披露，阿尔勒的凯撒流是...奥兰治会议接受了半奥古斯丁主义立场作为正统公教会立场。
- start: 2318.163
  end: 2337.759
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you take this away and these guys are off the table, it does become the middle way between  This is going to be Catholic Orthodoxy.
  zh: 如果你把这个拿走，这些人不再考虑，它确实成为了中间道路...这将成为公教会的正统。
- start: 2337.759
  end: 2345.222
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What that means is that the Church accepted the Augustinian view of the sacraments.
  zh: 这意味着教会接受了奥古斯丁对圣事的看法。
- start: 2345.263
  end: 2348.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It accepted an Augustinian view of original sin.
  zh: 它接受了奥古斯丁对原罪的看法。
- start: 2349.084
  end: 2355.047
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It accepted the idea of grace as a power and the idea of prevenient grace.
  zh: 它接受了恩典作为一种力量的观念和先行恩典的观念。
- start: 2355.931
  end: 2367.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But the Council rejected Augustine's doctrine of election or predestination, which naturally leads to a limited atonement.
  zh: 但会议拒绝了奥古斯丁的拣选或预定论，这自然会导致有限的赎罪。
- start: 2368.294
  end: 2378.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, we still have original sin, but we also still have a little bit of free will in there, too, because the will chooses to accept or reject God's grace.
  zh: 所以，我们仍然有原罪，但我们也仍然有一点自由意志，因为意志选择接受或拒绝神的恩典。
- start: 2379.576
  end: 2389.817
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, whereas, you know, this extreme has really all  All will, I mean the will is active and grace is passive.
  zh: 所以，你知道，这个极端真的全是意志，我的意思是意志是主动的，恩典是被动的。
- start: 2389.918
  end: 2392.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this extreme is really all grace.
  zh: 而这个极端真的全是恩典。
- start: 2392.379
  end: 2395.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace is active and the will is passive.
  zh: 恩典是主动的，意志是被动的。
- start: 2396.101
  end: 2404.966
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Both of these middle options have an idea of active will and active grace.
  zh: 这两个中间选项都有主动意志和主动恩典的观念。
- start: 2404.966
  end: 2407.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Both grace and will are active.
  zh: 恩典和意志都是主动的。
- start: 2409.465
  end: 2416.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's just a question of whether or not the human will can sort of take the initiative in the relationship between human and God.
  zh: 问题只在于人的意志是否能在人与神的关系中主动采取行动。
- start: 2416.489
  end: 2418.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And the conclusion is no, it cannot.
  zh: 结论是不能，它不能。
- start: 2418.75
  end: 2420.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Grace must take the initiative.
  zh: 恩典必须主动采取行动。
- start: 2422.052
  end: 2441.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so, ultimately, the semi-Augustinian position that will be confirmed as the Catholic position for the West is  everything that Augustine said except the predestination thing, except the limited atonement.
  zh: 所以，最终，被确认为西方公教会立场的半奥古斯丁主义立场是奥古斯丁所说的一切，除了预定论，除了有限赎罪。
- start: 2441.496
  end: 2446.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: That stuff won't be picked up again until the Reformation with John Calvin.
  zh: 这些内容直到宗教改革时期的约翰·加尔文才会再次被提起。
- start: 2446.737
  end: 2456.899
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so what Calvin did with that is really picking up the parts of Augustine that the Catholic Church had rejected.
  zh: 所以加尔文所做的实际上是拾起公教会所拒绝的奥古斯丁的那些部分。
- start: 2457.799
  end: 2463.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, any questions so far on the Pelagian Controversy?
  zh: 那么，关于伯拉纠争议到目前为止有什么问题吗？
- start: 2467.618
  end: 2471.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, let me just say a few things by way of wrap-up.
  zh: 好的，让我总结几点作为结束。
- start: 2471.641
  end: 2477.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Augustine himself had great influence in the West, and almost none in the East.
  zh: 奥古斯丁本人在西方有很大影响，但在东方几乎没有影响。
- start: 2478.066
  end: 2482.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the East, you had the Cappadocians, who had a lot of influence.
  zh: 在东方，你有加帕多家教父，他们有很大影响。
- start: 2483.03
  end: 2496.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the West, you had Augustine, and Augustine had, in the West, the same kind of influence that the Cappadocians had in the East, but neither one really had the same influence in the opposite side.
  zh: 在西方，你有奥古斯丁，奥古斯丁在西方有着与加帕多家教父在东方同样的影响力，但两者在对方的地盘上都没有真正产生同样的影响。
- start: 2497.256
  end: 2531.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And in the East, the Eastern Church will continue to emphasize that classical optimism about the human nature, that humanity is perfectible, and that the human will is free, and the East will  We'll always have this idea that there is a sanctification towards godliness, that perfectibility is somehow still possible.
  zh: 在东方，东方教会将继续强调对人性的古典乐观主义，认为人性是可以完善的，人的意志是自由的，东方将始终保持这种观念，即存在一种向神性圣化的过程，某种程度上完美仍然是可能的。
- start: 2531.221
  end: 2535.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And we see this in the idea of theosis, becoming godlike.
  zh: 我们在神化的观念中看到了这一点，即成为神性。
- start: 2538.152
  end: 2540.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The West isn't going to have that.
  zh: 西方不会有这种观念。
- start: 2540.132
  end: 2563.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The West is going to have, from Augustine on through into the Middle Ages, the West is going to have a more pessimistic outlook on human nature, emphasizing original sin and the human will as fallen and as needing grace as medicine.
  zh: 从奥古斯丁开始直到中世纪，西方将对人性持更悲观的看法，强调原罪和人的意志已经堕落，需要恩典作为良药。
- start: 2566.088
  end: 2577.415
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so we're going to see a very different way of looking at sin, original sin, free will, between the East and the West.
  zh: 因此，我们将看到东西方在看待罪、原罪和自由意志方面有很大的不同。
- start: 2577.415
  end: 2583.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And this is going to be one of the things that's going to feed into the split between the East and West that's coming down the road.
  zh: 这将成为未来导致东西方分裂的因素之一。
- start: 2584.72
  end: 2591.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But for the Western world, Augustus effectively ends what we call the classical period.
  zh: 但对西方世界来说，奥古斯丁实际上结束了我们所称的古典时期。
- start: 2593.548
  end: 2599.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: With its optimism about human nature and with its belief in free will.
  zh: 包括其对人性的乐观态度和对自由意志的信念。
- start: 2599.232
  end: 2609.959
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So, in some ways I guess we can blame Augustine for that and his experience with pears and things.
  zh: 所以，在某些方面，我想我们可以把这归咎于奥古斯丁以及他与梨子等事物的经历。
- start: 2609.959
  end: 2613.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So let's see if there are any questions.
  zh: 让我们看看是否有任何问题。
- start: 2621.046
  end: 2628.732
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The classical period of history in the West.
  zh: 西方历史的古典时期。
- start: 2629.252
  end: 2634.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The classical world is characterized by Mormon optimism about human nature.
  zh: 古典世界的特征是对人性持摩门教式的乐观态度。
- start: 2634.136
  end: 2635.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Yes, with humanism.
  zh: 是的，伴随着人文主义。
- start: 2635.398
  end: 2652.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It comes back somewhat also in  The medieval period during the time of scholasticism and when the scholastics bring philosophy back.
  zh: 在中世纪经院哲学时期，当经院哲学家们重新引入哲学时，这种观点在某种程度上又回来了。
- start: 2652.747
  end: 2654.508
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: We'll get to that.
  zh: 我们会讲到那个。
- start: 2655.329
  end: 2655.67
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: Yes?
  zh: 是的？
- start: 2655.67
  end: 2658.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: Where did Pelagius come from?
  zh: 伯拉纠来自哪里？
- start: 2658.792
  end: 2662.075
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: He's from Britain originally and then he moved down to Rome.
  zh: 他最初来自不列颠，然后搬到了罗马。
- start: 2662.075
  end: 2668.64
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Stayed in Rome until about 409 just before the sack of Rome and then he got out and then he went to the east.
  zh: 他在罗马一直待到409年左右，就在罗马被洗劫之前，然后他离开并前往东方。
- start: 2668.64
  end: 2669.821
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But he's from Britain.
  zh: 但他来自不列颠。
- start: 2669.821
  end: 2670.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: He was a priest?
  zh: 他是一位神父吗？
- start: 2670.801
  end: 2672.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: He was a monk.
  zh: 他是一位修士。
- start: 2677.072
  end: 2692.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: You know, I don't have a birth year, but he died in 420. I'm double checking, but yeah, he died in 420. Anything else?
  zh: 你知道，我没有他的出生年份，但他在420年去世。我在再次确认，但是是的，他在420年去世。还有其他问题吗？
- start: 2692.689
  end: 2693.369
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: Yes?
  zh: 是的？
- start: 2693.584
  end: 2696.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: It was something you had said earlier.
  zh: 是你之前说过的一件事。
- start: 2696.045
  end: 2708.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: The Catholics, they took the position on the website for the church to accept the views of sacraments, outstanding views of sacraments, and what else did you say?
  zh: 公教会，他们在教会网站上采取了接受圣事观点的立场，突出的圣事观点，你还说了什么？
- start: 2708.269
  end: 2710.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And they accepted his view on original sin.
  zh: 他们接受了他对原罪的看法。
- start: 2710.73
  end: 2711.99
  speaker: SPEAKER_D
  en: On original sin.
  zh: 关于原罪。
- start: 2711.99
  end: 2721.596
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But they rejected the outstanding view  Yes, it rejected his view, his doctrine of election, which is predestination.
  zh: 但他们拒绝了那个突出的观点...是的，它拒绝了他的观点，他的拣选教义，也就是预定论。
- start: 2722.037
  end: 2726.98
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You may hear talk about a single predestination versus a double predestination.
  zh: 你可能会听到关于单重预定论与双重预定论的讨论。
- start: 2726.98
  end: 2742.972
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If people talk about that, what they're saying is that a single predestination would be that God would choose those who are to be saved, and a double predestination would be that God would choose those who are to be saved and those who are not to be saved.
  zh: 如果人们谈论这个，他们的意思是单重预定论认为神会选择那些将要得救的人，而双重预定论认为神会选择那些将要得救的人和那些不会得救的人。
- start: 2743.439
  end: 2744.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I don't see the difference.
  zh: 我看不出有什么区别。
- start: 2744.92
  end: 2754.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: If you're going to choose those who are to be saved and leave the rest not saved, to me there's no such thing as a single election or a single predestination.
  zh: 如果你要选择那些将要得救的人，而让其他人不得救，对我来说，没有所谓的单一拣选或单一预定。
- start: 2755.007
  end: 2758.268
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: It's double or nothing is what it is.
  zh: 这就是要么双重，要么什么都没有。
- start: 2758.809
  end: 2764.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Although Augustine doesn't talk about it like that, that comes back around in the Reformation.
  zh: 虽然奥古斯丁没有这样说，但这个观点在宗教改革时期又回来了。
- start: 2765.229
  end: 2771.961
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that's what the church rejected was this idea of election as predestination along with its limited atonement.
  zh: 所以教会拒绝的是这种将拣选视为预定的观念，以及与之相关的有限赎罪。
- start: 2772.242
  end: 2776.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: So there's no middle way like the Gnostic tab with the solish?
  zh: 所以没有像诺斯替派那样的中间道路吗？
- start: 2777.871
  end: 2780.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: What happens to unbaptized babies who die before they get baptized?
  zh: 那些在受洗前就死去的未受洗婴儿会怎么样？
- start: 2780.772
  end: 2784.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I believe it was Pelagius who actually promoted the idea of limbo.
  zh: 我相信实际上是伯拉纠提出了炼狱的概念。
- start: 2797.279
  end: 2811.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: As a possible place in between heaven and hell where the unbaptized might go, Augustine wanted to talk about a milder form of damnation for the babies.
  zh: 作为天堂和地狱之间的可能地方，未受洗的人可能会去那里，奥古斯丁想谈论一种对婴儿更温和的诅咒形式。
- start: 2811.269
  end: 2825.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So yeah, in that sense, maybe there's some place in between, but the church would eventually accept some kind of idea of limbo that more recently has rejected it.
  zh: 所以是的，从这个意义上说，也许有一个中间地带，但教会最终会接受某种炼狱的概念，尽管最近又拒绝了它。
- start: 2827.265
  end: 2829.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that didn't take hold long-term, but yeah.
  zh: 所以这个观点长期没有站住脚，但确实存在过。
- start: 2829.706
  end: 2830.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yes?
  zh: 是的？
- start: 2831.346
  end: 2835.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: You mentioned infant baptism a couple times tonight.
  zh: 你今晚提到了几次婴儿洗礼。
- start: 2835.887
  end: 2837.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: Could you refresh my memory?
  zh: 你能帮我回忆一下吗？
- start: 2837.488
  end: 2845.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: Maybe I missed it, but kind of when that shift was made to infant baptism away from adult baptism?
  zh: 也许我错过了，但是从成人洗礼转向婴儿洗礼的转变是在什么时候发生的？
- start: 2845.43
  end: 2851.952
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: I know that you said early on that adults were there to be baptized.
  zh: 我知道你早先说过成年人是去受洗的。
- start: 2853.462
  end: 2855.748
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: Well, there really isn't a theological shift.
  zh: 嗯，实际上并没有神学上的转变。
- start: 2862.028
  end: 2865.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: The shift, in fact I would say there really isn't a shift.
  zh: 这种转变，事实上我会说根本没有转变。
- start: 2865.589
  end: 2874.371
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: In the first generation of the church, when there are mostly adults who are making a choice to be Christian, they're the ones who are getting baptized.
  zh: 在教会的第一代，当大多数是选择成为基督徒的成年人时，他们是接受洗礼的人。
- start: 2874.652
  end: 2880.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But even already in the New Testament, you see at least one example of a household baptism, right?
  zh: 但即使在新约中，你也至少看到一个全家受洗的例子，对吧？
- start: 2880.633
  end: 2904.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And so we assume that that's how it worked, that whole households were baptized and that  Eventually, and again this is one of those things where you can't put a date on this because it would have happened at different times at different places, but eventually everyone's going to get around to baptizing infants.
  zh: 所以我们假设就是这样运作的，整个家庭都受洗，最终，这又是那种你无法给它确定日期的事情，因为它会在不同的时间和地点发生，但最终每个人都会开始给婴儿施洗。
- start: 2904.718
  end: 2911.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: As they're born into the church, as baptism becomes the Christian version of circumcision.
  zh: 当他们出生在教会中，洗礼成为基督教版本的割礼。
- start: 2911.041
  end: 2920.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So that, you know, if your circumcision on the eighth day has entrance into the family of the covenant, with the church it's going to be a similar kind of thing.
  zh: 所以，你知道，如果你在第八天的割礼让你进入约的家庭，在教会里也会有类似的事情。
- start: 2921.005
  end: 2929.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: And especially when you have, you know, in the West, a doctrine of original sin,  Then it becomes imperative to baptize an infant.
  zh: 特别是当你在西方有原罪的教义时，给婴儿施洗就变得非常重要。
- start: 2929.839
  end: 2934.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: I can't think of anyone who worries about that.
  zh: 我想不出有谁会担心这个。
- start: 2934.783
  end: 2936.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_E
  en: I wouldn't be able to pinpoint a time.
  zh: 我无法确定一个具体的时间。
- start: 2947.014
  end: 2949.657
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: It seems to be there from the beginning.
  zh: 它似乎从一开始就存在。
- start: 2949.657
  end: 2954.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The first generation of the adult Catholicism, more on the initiation stage, right?
  zh: 第一代成人公教会，更多是在入门阶段，对吧？
- start: 2954.142
  end: 2961.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: The morality aspect of Christianity and also the sanctification of that person's soul, right?
  zh: 基督教的道德方面，以及那个人灵魂的成圣，对吧？
- start: 2963.358
  end: 2971.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You always have adult baptisms because you always have converts coming into the church from paganism or wherever.
  zh: 你总是会有成人洗礼，因为总是有从异教或其他地方归信的人加入教会。
- start: 2974.102
  end: 2979.104
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You'll always have adult baptisms and you'll always have catechesis for adults.
  zh: 你总是会有成人洗礼，也总是会有成人教理讲授。
- start: 2979.104
  end: 2984.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Like Perpetua's class, they all get arrested together.
  zh: 就像佩尔佩图阿的班级，他们都一起被捕了。
- start: 2986.367
  end: 2990.77
  speaker: SPEAKER_B
  en: Is that what you're asking?
  zh: 这是你想问的吗？
- start: 2990.77
  end: 2995.752
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: I'm trying to get away from seeing that as a transition at all.
  zh: 我试图避免将其视为一种转变。
- start: 2995.752
  end: 3001.175
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: You have to assume that infant baptism goes back as far as we can figure, yeah?
  zh: 你必须假设婴儿洗礼可以追溯到我们所能想象的最早时期，对吧？
- start: 3001.175
  end: 3011.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So if, going on the infant baptism, so after original sin, there's a imperative to baptize babies, that'll be in the West.
  zh: 所以如果，继续谈婴儿洗礼，在原罪之后，给婴儿施洗就变得非常重要，这将是在西方。
- start: 3012.188
  end: 3019.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, right, because the doctrine of Original Sin doesn't take hold as much in the East.
  zh: 是的，没错，因为原罪的教义在东方并没有那么盛行。
- start: 3019.115
  end: 3023.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: But they still baptized in this, yeah, and that goes back again as far as we can tell.
  zh: 但他们仍然进行洗礼，是的，据我们所知，这可以追溯到很早以前。
- start: 3023.36
  end: 3038.388
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: We can't pinpoint a time when they didn't.  Without baptism, you don't have access to the Holy Spirit and to grace.
  zh: 我们无法确定他们什么时候不这样做。没有洗礼，你就无法获得圣灵和恩典。
- start: 3038.648
  end: 3046.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_C
  en: So it would have been very early on when it was apparent that Jesus may not come back for these first generations of converts.
  zh: 所以这很可能是在很早的时候，当人们意识到耶稣可能不会为这些第一代归信者回来时。
- start: 3046.61
  end: 3066.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, certainly the conferral of the Holy Spirit would technically probably be part of the confirmation, but once you have Christianity legalized,  Then there isn't even a reason for people with government jobs to postpone their baptism, so then, you know, even more so.
  zh: 是的，当然，圣灵的赐予在技术上可能是坚信礼的一部分，但一旦基督教合法化，那么即使是政府工作的人也没有理由推迟他们的洗礼，所以你知道，就更是如此了。
- start: 3067.791
  end: 3105.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Yeah, but again, that's more probably in the context of the legalization of Christianity and  The legalization of Christianity also affects ordination because once Christianity becomes legalized and then the official religion of the empire, ordination takes on more of a liturgical, sacramental, ceremonial aspect as well.
  zh: 是的，但再次强调，这更可能是在基督教合法化的背景下。基督教的合法化也影响了圣职授予，因为一旦基督教合法化并成为帝国的官方宗教，圣职授予也就具有了更多的礼仪、圣事和仪式方面的特征。
- start: 3105.79
  end: 3111.233
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: So there's a lot of things that sort of change at that point.
  zh: 所以在那个时点有很多事情发生了变化。
- start: 3113.314
  end: 3114.635
  speaker: SPEAKER_A
  en: Alright, any other questions?
  zh: 好的，还有其他问题吗？
- start: 3116.915
  end: 3117.26
  speaker: unknown
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
