Transcript

Hey, everybody.

Welcome back to another episode of the Catholic Talk Show.

We're in a jubilee year, so we're gonna be talking about what that is, what that means for you and your spirituality in the church today.

Yeah, happy jubilee year.

And we're joined by Dr. Jon Bergsma, and he's the author of the new book, Jesus and the Jubilee: The Biblical Roots of the Year of God's Favor.

2025's gonna be very special year.

Let us tell you how.

All right.

Thanks for joining us, everybody.

Really excited to have Dr. Bergsma, one of the best theologians, I think, in our Church today, in the United States, and certainly globally.

Uh, this is a fantastic topic too, because what we're looking at is an opportunity, I think, for everybody, uh, and also a little bit of a backfill into our trip to Rome this year and our pilgrimage.

So, this is gonna be a very exciting episode.

Dr. Bergsma, great to see you and welcome.

Absolutely, Ryan and Ryan.

It's awesome.

Uh, so good to be with you, and yeah, it's- it's exciting.

We're in this- this year of holiness and a chance for conversion for ourselves, for the Church, for the whole world.

Beautiful.

So.

You know, so Dr. Bergsma, you wrote this book, and he- here's what I think a lot of our listeners are gonna be asking, right?

What is even a jubilee year?

Because this is not something that happens very often.

This is maybe a three times in a lifetime type thing.

Right.

This is a very particular year within the life of the Church, so why don't we start there?

What even is a jubilee year?

What does jubilee even mean?

Yeah, yeah.

So jubilee, the- the word comes from, uh, the word for a ram's horn.

It was called a- a jo- a jovial in ancient Hebrew, and, uh, they blew this horn to announce the beginning of a holy year, and, uh, we'll talk about that in a minute when we get into the biblical roots of the jubilee year.

But for us as Catholics, uh, a jubilee year is a holy year where the Pope sanctifies time, just a fancy word, he- he consecrates a year.

He makes this time holy from one date to another, and during that time, special graces are available, uh, from the Church, and, uh, special practices that are normally not allowed or, um, we don't have an opportunity for are- are made available, uh, so that we can enter more richly into our relationship, uh, with the Lord.

Um, some of the typical practices of a jubilee year are pilgrimage, and there's a- there's a biblical reason for why we do pilgrimages on a jubilee year, and another is, uh, the gaining of indulgences, uh, which is not as I thought as a Protestant convert, uh, where you pay Father so you can go on a bender on the weekend.

Uh, in other words, pay off the Church so you can indulge.

That's not what that means.

Uh, the- the Latin word indulgence actually means mercy.

It doesn't mean what it means in English nowadays.

Uh, so indulgences are actually acts of mercy from the Church that help to heal us from some of the negative effects caused by our sin.

Special prayers are the practices that we can perform.

So, the jubilee year is a- a- a great time for practicing indulgences if folks have not been into that habit.

I learned a lot about indulgences writing the book and have begun to seek indulgences, and it's- it's really been very helpful in my spirituality.

You can get up to two plenary indulgences a day, uh, during the jubilee year.

Normally, you're limited to one a day.

You can do two a day.

It reminds me of, uh, high school football.

Yeah, there you go.

Two a days.

That's what I thought, too.

Right.

Yeah, exactly, right.

So, you get two a days indulgences, uh, during the jubilee year.

So okay, to wrap up, what is a jubilee year?

It's a holy year where, uh, more graces and more forgiveness is made available by the Church to, uh, encourage us to seek conversion for ourselves and everybody w- that we love.

Why- why do we need 'em?

I mean, if- if Jesus' Y'know, coming sort of from the Protestant angle, it's just like, Why do I need an indulgent year, even if it does mean mercy and not going on a bender?

What- what is- what is the purpose when we have Jesus already?

Like, why- why-

Yeah.

Why this year?

Yeah, absolutely, that's a great question, and, uh, the- the truth of the matter is Jesus came to i- to inaugurate the perpetual jubilee.

That's actually what the Bible shows us.

Um, you know, at some point maybe we'll do a little overview of the biblical history of the jubilee.

Cool.

And you find out that, if you know what to look for, you can see Jesus in the Gospels basically announcing that a perpetual jubilee has arrived.

So, that's true.

Mm-hmm.

The graces, the forgiveness, it's always available.

We are in a never-ending spiritual jubilee.

But the thing is, we're creatures in time.

We get bored, we get forgetful, et cetera, and so, uh, periodically, uh, the Church, and especially the Holy Father, announces, You know what?

We're gonna set aside a year, uh, to get back to basics and refocus on the Gospel message, and that's- that's another thing that the jubilee year is.

It's- it's refocusing and reminding ourselves, This is what it's all about.

He came to bring us freedom.

He came, uh, to free us from the debt of our sins and from slavery to Satan, and in case we have forgotten that because we're just in the routine, now's a year to- to look back on that, call that to mind, refocus, and renew.

Yeah, now one of the things that I r- I really like, so for those of you who don't know, the Jubilee started on Christmas Eve this year and it'll run, you know, throughout tw- 2025.

Right.

And I saw all these articles from people who are like, I have no idea what a jubilee is, but the Pope is secretly opening five portals.

And everyone's, like, freaking out- like, Oh, the Pope's doing these rituals that haven't been done in a thousand years, and he's opening portals, and, like, everyone's like-

I saw that

What's going on with these crazy Catholics, right?

They're trying to make it seem like the Pope's going and opening, you know, the gates to Hades underneath the Vatican, right?

Yeah, yeah.

What was that whole s- what was that whole ceremony about?

What was that whole ritual?

Uh, what was the purpose of that, and what's the clarity on that?

Yeah, yeah.

So I think people are thinking of, like, Stargate.

I don't know if you guys remember that old show.

Right.

It's like, yeah, all right, gonna get to these other dimensions and whatnot.

But no, it's not that.

This is so biblical.

It actually goes back to John 10:9, where Jesus says, I am the door, right?

He's the door for the sheep, he's the door of salvation, and so on the, the major churches in the city of Rome, which we, we call basilicas, but it just means a, a major important historical church.

There's four of them in Rome, uh, dedicated to, uh, Saint John, uh, uh, the Blessed Mother, Saint Peter, and Saint Paul, and each of has a door that kinda, uh, visually represents Jesus who is the door of salvation.

Mm-hmm.

And so on these jubilee years, when the year opens up, the Pope goes to these major churches and he opens that door and passes through, and that is like a visual, physical reminder that Jesus is the only, uh, path to salvation for all human beings.

And unless we pass through the door who is Christ, uh, we cannot be saved.

But in this holy year, he's inviting literally the whole world to pass through that door.

And sometimes, you know, yeah, we can, we can know about it theoretically, but since, since we have bodies and we have five senses, oftentimes it's very helpful to do physical things, like literally go on a pilgrimage journey, which you guys are gonna do, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And then walk through that door as, as a concrete sign that, Yeah, I am accepting the offer of salvation from Jesus in this holy year of conversion.

Mm-hmm.

So that's what it's all about.

It's not, you know, you're not going into some other dimension with, uh, a- you know, uh, aliens and, what else, lizard people.

Well, I was kinda looking forward to that part of it, Brian.

That's why I w- I was planning on going there later, but, you know, I think it, it really was a very it's a very interesting, and again, a fairly, um, rare experience within the church.

I mean, in the old days, they used to have it bricked up.

They don't really do it anymore like that.

Uh, and like you said, you know, i- there's these holy doors in the four major basilicas of Rome.

Um, but this is one those things that people say, Look at these Catholics doing the crazy thing-

Right

that if you just walk through this door, you get right into heaven.

I think that was the plot of the movie, um- Dogma, right?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, Kevin Smith or whatever it is, like, Oh, look at this, you know, we can go through this door and everything we've ever done is fine and you know.

But the jubilee has a deep biblical root.

This was something that was practiced by the ancient Israelites.

This is something that goes back to, you know, this is cove- you know, this is part, um, and parcel of how the covenant was understood.

So what is, you know, the biblical roots of this, or is this someth- that the Pope made up to, you know, raise some revenue to build a new church?

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought in 1999, uh, Fall of 1999.

I was a Protestant, uh, but I was going to the University of Notre Dame to go get a Bible degree, st- to study with a Protestant who was teaching there.

And, uh, when I got to the campus of Notre Dame in, in '99, they were all, you know, everything was abuzz 'cause they were gearing up for the great Jubilee Year of 2000 under Pope John Paul II.

And I, you know, I just thought, This, this is the biggest bunch of hoopla, you know, a religious, uh, fundraising scheme.

I was one of these super cynical Protestants that grew up with stories about the sale of indulgences from that priest Johann Tetzel, you know, who sparked the Reformation, and Martin Luther, and I was like, Oh, those Catholics are at it again, you know?

.

But, uh, you know, the irony, guys, is I ended up doing my dissertation on the Jubilee Year- which is in Leviticus 25, okay?

And I ended up coming into the Church, well, you know, m- making all the heavy lifting of coming into the Church was actually done for me in, in the Jubilee Year.

So at the beginning of 2000, that, that great Jubilee Year, I was as anti-Catholic as you could be.

By December of that year, I was calling a priest friend of mine and asking, How do I get accepted into the Catholic Church?

Ah.

So, that- that's, that's a point I wanna make, is that even, even people who don't believe in the Jubilee Year will be affected by it, okay?

Okay.

'Cause when the successor of Peter declares something to be holy, it really does become holy.

And, uh, that's, that's in scripture.

Th- you know, I'm just gonna make a little aside here.

In Matthew 16:18-19 our Lord tells Peter, Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in heaven.

Whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in heaven.

What people don't know is th- that's Je- Jewish terminology there, okay?

Binding criterion, loosing, it's, it's Jewish terms of the day back in the first century.

And that referred to the authority to make rules about religious matters.

And one of the big issues was when do the holy days fall?

Mm-hmm.

So Thos- Jesus was giving Peter the authority to decide that, and that's passed onto his successors.

So it's not just, you know it- it's not just like, um, Hallmark deciding that they're gonna set Sweetest Day on April 16th, you know, so they can sell some- some of these arti- artificial holidays so they can sell some greeting cards.

It's not like that.

You know, the God man Jesus Christ gave Peter and his successors the power to declare holy days.

And so when the successor Peter, namely Pope Francis, says, There's gonna be a holy time from December 24th- 2024 until, uh, January 6th, 2026.

That really makes it holy, okay?

So we're living in a holy time and there's, there's opportunities that are special.

There's graces coming out from heaven.

It's really real.

Yes, it takes faith to believe it, but just like we believe in the Eucharist, you know?

There's not a physical sign of the change of the bread, but we know that its substance really does.

And likewise, even if you don't feel something, this year is, is holy because the Successor Peter has said so.

But anyway, getting back to this, uh, you know, the question was, what's the Biblical roots of the, of the Jubilee?

Well, in Leviticus 25 we find Moses setting up a year on a 50-year cycle.

Every 50 years, this year is gonna come around.

And what this year does is it cancels all debt, it, um, it cancels all land sales, so all property goes back to the original owner, and it sets free all Israelite servants so that they can go home to be with their family on their property.

Okay?

So this is a beautiful thing, and I imagine every 50 years they would blow the horn, they would announce this year and that with the sound of that horn throughout the whole land let all the servants know that they were freed and they could go and be with their family.

So I can see, like, cookouts all over, you know, barbecue Everybody's barbecue, right?

'Cause it's like a big family reunion for every Israelite family in the entire land.

So, like, the smoke of a thousand grills is rising into the heavens across the entire land, Israel, uh, in, in this jubilee year as everybody's being reunited.

So that's what the Jubilee is really all about.

It- it's family, it's freedom, its, um, it's experiencing God's fullness.

These were the things that were intended.

And the reason Moses set that up is so that the people of Israel would never lose the freedom that they had gained from the Exodus.

Mm-hmm.

Now, the Exodus is, like, the big event in the Old Testament, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's like everything revolves around that.

That was, like, when they became a nation and they got freed from Egyptian slavery.

So, how do we make sure that we never slide back into slavery?

Well, every 50 years, erase everything, press the big reset button on the whole economy and society and we do this.

Hmm.

Now, the problem is they just They didn't observe it.

Maybe a couple of times at the beginning and then they stopped doing it, and so they slid back into slavery and ultimately because they were not following God's law, uh, they went into exile, and that was the end of them as an independent nation.

And so later in the Old Testament, what we sees is the prophets begin to look for the Messiah to come and announce a supernatural jubilee, and that's what we see, for example, in Isaiah 61, that famous passage that we read periodically, uh, in mass, where, um, uh, the, uh, the servant of the Lord says, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, uh, to proclaim liberty to captives That's a phrase from the Jubilee Year, Leviticus 25.

Yes.

And to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.

That is the Messiah being prophesied as the one who has the Holy Spirit, just as we celebrated, feast of the baptism, uh, just, uh, yesterday.

That's the Holy Spirit coming down on Jesus.

He is the one to proclaim the jubilee year, the eternal jubilee that will never end.

And that's why in Luke 4, which is coming up on, uh, January 26th, we're gonna read Luke 4 for our Gospel reading.

Jesus goes to his hometown synagogue in Nazareth, he reads Isaiah 61 and says, This is fulfilled in your hearing.

Okay?

That's this little one sentence homily based on Isaiah 61.

This is, Many I am the anointed one who's come to proclaim the jubilee.

And that, I mean, that's great, but that could be all talk, right?

So, wh- what does Jesus do to show that he has come to proclaim the, the, uh, jubilee?

Well, the Jews knew that this, that this coming jubilee was gonna be spiritual.

It was gonna free them not from the debt of money, but from the debt of sin.

Not from slavery to human masters, but from slavery to Satan.

And this is exactly what our Lord does in the next two chapters of Luke.

First he goes and he casts a demon out of a man in Capernaum.

That is freeing him from slavery to Satan.

The next chapter, Luke 5, they lower that paralytic down right in front of Jesus.

He forgives the man's sins.

That is releasing from the debt of sin.

So, Jesus comes and, uh, institutes this perpetual spiritual jubilee as the prophets foresaw, like Isaiah, Ezekiel.

We didn't even get into Ezekiel.

But that's, that's it in a little nutshell.

That, that is the, the Biblical basis for the jubilee year.

We're really, you know, now that we're in the church, we're really always in perpetual jubilee.

In fact, the Chaldean, uh, rite, you know, maybe when, when you're in Rome, you may run into some Chaldean Christians there.

Their whole liturgy is called the perpetual jubilee.

That's what they call it in their, in their language.

I can't speak the, um, the Chaldean, uh, you know, liturgical tongue, but they call their whole liturgy perpetual jubilee.

But, you know, to refocus us on this truth, every so often, the Pope calls us for a special jubilee year where we come back to the basics and remind ourselves that Jesus came to set us free from our sins, from slavery to Satan.

That's the Gospel message.

Wow.

Can you send a copy of this book over to Chase and Goldman Sachs and see if they can- get into the soul and spirit as well?

'Cause I'm sure there's a lot of people who would love to have their debts forgiven.

Uh, yes.

Indeed, yeah.

That, that would be a w- a wonderful thing.

Um, I'll send them complimentary copies, uh, along with Mike-

All right.

my own personal account numbers that they can pay with.

Perfect.

So, now, we understand the Jewish roots of it and then the kind of, um the, the prophetic fulfillment nature of it, but when did this practice s- start in the church?

You know, was this something that began right away or was this something that was reinstituted or brought back with more vigor later on?

Right.

Yeah, the first time that we have a record of- of a jubilee year in the church is around the year 1300s, so it's quite some ti- 700 years ago, we have records of them observing the first, uh, Catholic jubilee.

But actually, it wasn't the first, because what the records say is they were actually reviving a practice that went back earlier.

So, we don't even know how far, how early this went.

Mm-hmm.

It was s- c- certainly when The first one we have record of is from 1300, but even then, they were saying, Oh yeah, they- w- we've been doing this for centuries.

So in the murky past, you know, could be 11th century, 10th century.

Um, so at some point in there, you know, the, the Holy Spirit moved on the Holy Father and said, you know, Why don't we revive this beautiful biblical practice going back to the people of Israel, and why don't we have a Catholic jubilee year?

Start off, they would do one a century, and then it got more frequent, one every 50 years.

And- and in order that, you know, more people can experience it within their lifetime, the practice has become about every 25 years.

So, the last regular jubilee y- year we had was in 2000.

Some folks might remember though, in 2015, um, Pope Francis had a- a- an extraordinary jubil- it was like, you know, kind of out of the regular, uh, pattern in, uh, 2015, the extraordinary year of- of, uh, Mercy.

Uh, but now we're kind of back on the regular schedule again .

Yep.

So, we're pretty excited about this because this is one of the things that we're doing with our audience, is that we're taking a pilgrimage to Rome.

Um, and I know that part of the jubilee year, there's a lot of indulgences around pilgrimages.

Um, m- they're anticipating, I think somewhere around a million people going to Rome.

I- actually, I- I might even be wrong.

It might be something like 7 million people going to Italy for the jubilee year, which is-

Wow!

which is a tremendous amount of people.

Um, what are some of the things that people can really do that Maybe they're not getting the chance to E- they're not lucky enough to be able to go to Rome.

What are some ways that, you know, your average person can celebrate the jubilee year and really participate in these special graces and mercies that the church is offering?

Yeah.

The church makes it so easy, and the church knows there s- there's a lot of homebound people, so if you look, um There's actually a document from, uh, the Vatican that came out talking about how to gain the, uh, jubilee, uh, indulgence, and it specifically says, If you're homebound or you can't travel, et cetera, can't make pilgrimage, if you spiritually accompany a group- okay?

Um, they're pra- like praying for them every day, uh, keeping up with them, et cetera, you can gain the same indulgences and the same graces as the- the- the group that actually goes.

Mm, that's cool.

So, this is something for sick, uh, for the handicapped, et cetera, homebound.

Think about kind of spiritually joining a group and praying for them, praying with them, following their progress, and you can, uh- you can gain, you know, the same- the same benefit.

Now also, uh, virtually every diocese in the country has proclaimed or designated, you know, through the bishop, has designated some more regional, um, uh, place, location where folks can go on pilgrimage.

So, no, there's- there's several, them all, you know, in- in, uh, in Ohio.

Mm-hmm.

Almost all the national shrines, like the National Shrine of Divine Mercy, uh, the National Shrine of, um, Our Lady of Lebanon, which for me is just up in Youngstown, it's about an hour and a half from here.

All the national shrines are basically pilgrimage destinations.

Um, and i- in some places, you know, the bishop has designated the cathedral church or the diocese as a place of pilgrimage.

Mm-hmm.

So, what I'd encourage Catholics to do is ch- you know, get on your diocesan website and see what your bishop has done, where he's- where he's designated as a place of pilgrimage, and then, um, make a plan to go there.

Try to do as much of it on foot, you know?

Maybe you can drive, you know- you know, up within, uh, you know, a couple hours, walk, whatever, and then get out with your kids, friends, whatever, walk the last couple hours or whatever to the pilgrimage site.

That gives You know, we're- we're creatures of time.

We're creatures of bodies.

We're creatures of physically- we gotta do things with our bodies and through time to kind of let things sink in.

This is the beauty of- of a pilgrimage.

You know, and- and this is the thing about pilgrimage is, every pilgrimage is a home-going, even if you have never visited that place before.

The whole point of a pilgrimage is to go home.

It's like, What do you mean?

I- I've never been to this site.

Well, no, but God has made that spot as a home on this planet.

You're traveling to a location that God has made holy by his presence through a saint or through the person of our Lord.

That's like, you know, some of the most popular pilgrimage sites are the Holy Land because Jesus made his home there, or Rome, where the Holy Father has his home and been made holy by his presence.

And so, you know, wherever we go on pilgrimage, we're going home, and when we get there, we meet our family, even if they're people that we've never met before.

And- and you guys are gonna have a tremendous time going to Rome because Rome, like you said, is gonna be just swollen with Catholics from all over the world.

And- and the neat thing about making a pilgrimage to Rome is you get there, and you just feel like they're all your brothers and sisters.

They may be from the Philippines, they may be from China, they may be from Africa, they may be from Argentina.

It doesn't matter.

You're in Rome and you're like in St. Peter's and you just feel like I am with, uh, 10,000 of my closest brothers and sisters, and you experience that universality of the church and that we are truly God's family.

And that- that's not just, you know, word talk.

That's actually true, because through our baptism, we share in the Holy Spirit who makes us sons and daughters of God.

so-

Yeah, I experienced that.

When I went to Rome, I was in St Peter's, uh, Square, and I'm like looking around at all these people and these are my people.

This is Theo- it was a really cool experience.

I- I definitely felt that.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

What So in, in the process of walking through those doors scripturally, um, just physically, and I like what you said about walking there and taking that time to let it sink in.

Uh, o- you know, and, and I, I guess we're talking to somebody who really knows his indulgences 'cause you had a conversion부t it yourself.

So like, I mean, you're like the perfect person to ask like where that is situated within all this.

What is the spiritual grace that's provided by the church?

What are the dynamics associated with it?

Because this is ultimately our- our greatest benefit it seems in, um, in the jubilee year.

That's right.

That's right.

So, you know, indulgences are very biblical.

First of all, the word means, um, mercy, going back to old Latin, okay?

And, and, you know, it's, it's got confused because like, you know, uh, because of expressions of the Church of Mercy, when you had done something wrong, et cetera, you know, the idea of indulgence got this strange sense in the English language-

Mm-hmm

of like giving in to your desires and stuff, but that's Again, that's not what the word means.

So it's, it's very biblical.

Back in the Old Testament, when you committed a sin in the Old Testament, you offered one sacrifice, which was, uh, a kind of an, uh, uh, uh, an appeal to God to forgive the guilt of your sin.

And then you offered another sacrifice, which was a kind of reparation.

It was kind of a restitution for the damage that you had done, uh, spiritually, physically, et cetera, for your sin.

So there is these two sacrifices in the Old Testament.

One for guilt and one for the damage that had been done by your sin.

And we talk about that also in the new covenant, in the church.

When we commit sins, there's guilt, and that guilt is typically forgiven in the confessional when we go to Jesus and the person or the priest in the confessional.

Now guilt is forgiving, but there's damage that remains.

A- and sometimes it's like even physical and monetary, you know, depending on what it is that we di- did with our sin.

But y- even apart from that, even it's kind of a private sin that didn't have like physical consequences, there's always spiritual damage that's done by our sins.

That's why the priest gives us a penance.

He gives us some holy practice to perform that will help to heal, eh, the damage that we've done.

Uh, but for more complete healing, that's why the church offers us these indulgences.

Indulgences are good for the soul.

They heal the damage done by the soul, um, by our sins.

And what the church does is set aside special holy practices, for example this whole year, making these pilgrimages.

And says, Okay, do this.

And then there's also other requirements involved with the, with the indulgence.

Every indulgence involves also, um, receiving holy communion in a state of grace, going to confession, detaching yourself from all desire for sin, which is probably the hardest requirement for most of us.

Like l- like I, uh, you know, uh, eradicate that desire of sin from our heart, and then praying for the intents of the Holy Father.

Those are kind of the, the regular conditions.

And then whatever act has been designated, like going on a pilgrimage.

And when we do those, what, what, what the church does is, is unleash for us some of the graces of what's called the heavenly treasury.

You know, all the, a- all, all the grace that, that is before Jesus through the holy acts of the saints or the Blessed Mother, or our Lord himself, that's released to help heal us, uh, from the damage that's been done.

You know, and, and, and people can approach us with skepticism, and doubt, and cynicism.

They can say, Well, how can, you know, making a pilgrimage to Rome and saying these prayers, et cetera, or how can say, uh, pray in the rosary with a group of other people because that's also a- an easy way to get a plenary indulgence.

Or, uh, some of the other acts that the church has set aside.

How can these, uh, heal the soul?

Well, you know that Jesus says, The Kingdom of Heaven is for those who approach it like a little child, and we have to have a sense of childlike trust to enter into the Kingdom of, of God.

What always comes back to me as a Protestant convert is a famous story in the Old Testament where it says this, this, uh, Syrian general, uh, Naaman, you may remember it 'cause it comes, uh, up in mass.

Like every three years-

Mm-hmm

we read the story.

The guy goes to the Prophet Elijah and he wants to be healed of his leprosy.

And he expects Elijah to su- you know, like call down fire from heaven or do something like crazy.

And Elijah says, Just go down to the Jordan River and wash seven times.

And, and Naaman's like, I'm not gonna do that.

How's that gonna help?

That's just like a muddy creek-

It's dirty water

that's not gonna help.

Right.

You know, that's just dirty water.

Yeah.

You know, I could go to bed- It's true.

It's like the Jordan is not impressive, okay?

And, and he's not gonna do it.

But he starts to say, Look, master, you know, if you had told you to like go climb a mountain-

Right.

and, and catch the tail feathers of the phoenix bird- I probably would have done that.

Right.

You know?

Why don't you just go and, and simply wash and be healed?

And he does it.

He washes and he's healed.

And it's always come back to me, you know, in, in, in instances, you know, the simple things that the church says, just do this and, and the church will unleash the graces to help heal you.

So we have to have that trusting, uh, th- that trusting attitude of children that if we perform these simple acts, that what, what the church promises and the Church has the authority of Jesus behind her, okay?

What, that, what, what Jesus promises us through the Church is gonna be enacted.

And, and, and, and brothers, you know, this was untrue- You know, in writing that book, I, I had to review all the theology of indulgence to get back into all that material.

Like, you know what?

I start, I need to make this part a regular habit of my own spiritual life.

So, I began do that.

And, uh, it, it, i- it works okay?

Yeah.

As a

Yeah.

testimony.

It has helped my soul and it's helped me make progress and get past certain, kind of like habitual sins and so on that I've been struggling with.

And, uh, it's amazing that when we, when we actually do follow the instruction book that the Church gives us, hey, what do you know?

Yeah.

It actually works.

So, so, are you talking about when, wh- when this practice that you're talking about, you're not talking about waiting 25 years for another jubilee, you're talking about seeking out where indulgences are offered?

Because a lot of times, you know, I'll see at the National Eucharistic Congress, maybe there was an indulge offer, there's different So that, that's what you're saying, you've incorporated this more into your spirituality, more into your quest for mercy and forgiveness and closeness to the Lord?

Is that what I'm hearing?

That's abs- that's absolutely correct.

Okay.

And there's, there are standing You know, many people are not aware, many Catholics are not aware there are kind of like standing practices that are always attached to an indulgence.

Like for example, praying the rosary out loud with other people.

That's a standing one- ербecIt's one of the easiest ways to gain a plenary indulgence.

Reading the Bible for a half hour and, and I'm a bible scarf, so like, always reading scripture.

Almost my students You know, I tell my students like, you know, I'm gonna start classes today.

It's the first day of classes at Franciscan University.

I teach Bible classes all day long.

I'm gonna tell them, Look, you're gonna have to reading all, you know, all kinds of Bible for me, you know, in this class, like Old Testament or New Testament.

So remember, you read the Bible for a half hour, y- you, you do that and the other requirements, the standing requirements, and that's a plenary indulgence.

So there's, there's a number of things and I, I, I-

Hey kids, your assignment today, 30 minutes of reading.

Exactly.

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

Everything's all right.

And by the way, go to confession before you do it-

Yeah

and you receive Eucharist.

Yeah.

You know, you brought up a couple things that I wanted to circle back on.

One, I absolutely love the association with the biblical sacrifices with the indulged acts.

Where, you know, you even see Mary doing this when she's offering the prescribed doves-

That's right.

That's right

after, you know, the purification, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

Um, so that's, that's a great view for Protestants who look at this with ske- skepticism that this is going all the way back to temple worship.

This is not something of, of an innovation.

You can also look at Jesus healing the blind man who was blind from birth, where he washed his eyes and then said, Go wash in the pool of Siloam.

Right?

Right.

There was a pilgrimage involved with it.

There was an action on the part of the person who was being healed.

Right.

Now, Jesus could have just, you know, and whatever, He could have rearranged time.

The guy never was born blind from the beginning-

Mm-hmm

but he, he attached this action with it, so that's, that's really wonderful, and I can see why you got doctorate in front of your name, 'cause I'm learning a ton already of things that I should have thought about years ago.

So that's-

Yeah

awesome.

But you keep using the word plenary, and I think a lot of people will not know the difference between the two types of indulgences, a partial and a plenary.

Would you explain those?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, and, and thank you for calling out me that b- because, you know, as Catholics we, you know, tend to use this jargon and then we forget not everybody understands, you know?

So your friend at work's, like, having a big trauma, like, You know what?

You need to do a total consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

It never works.

What?

How about that?

A total something or other, what the Okay.

So that's expla- ex replication of jargon.

So plenary just means full, okay?

Like, you know, if th- like, you go to conference and they have these plenary talks, right, you know, at, at, at whatever business conference.

And what does that mean?

It, it means the whole, the whole auditorium is full, 'cause everybody goes to it.

So, uh, plenary just means a full indulgence.

A plenary indulgence, okay, removes all the spiritual damage that has been done to your soul by your past sins.

Okay?

So that's, that's awesome.

Uh, partial indulgence, uh, you know, heals only part of the damage that's done, been done to your soul by these sins.

And, you know, we, we should think about this not just for ourselves, but also for the faithful departed.

You know, for people that have died in friendship with Jesus, uh, but, uh, but have this, this damage that's not been healed, not been worked off.

They go to a place that we call purgatory, very biblical.

We can look at the biblical passages about that, uh, where, you know, Jesus refers to, uh, this, this state, uh, that we, uh, that we term purgatory.

But regar- during the jubilee year, we ought to think about, uh, all our, you know, uh, loved ones and, and, and people that we don't know but we love them in Christ because they've died in his friendship that are in purgatory and we can gain indulgences for them.

And, uh, we could, you know, uh, offer, say-

Hmm

one of our pilgrimage indulgences specifically for some faithful person.

Maybe somebody from our own family, maybe a, a loved one, maybe a friend that we know of, or maybe we just, like, leave it up to our guardian angel and say, You know, guardian angel, I've gained this plenary indulgence.

Apply it to the soul who needs it the most in purgatory.

You know, purgatory is a kind of bondage.

It's a kind of a you know, where folks are being healed of their of the effects of their sin before they enter into the fullness of heaven, and, uh, since the jubilee was about freeing people, uh, from, uh, you know, from service as it were, uh, it'd be a great thing if we just emptied out purgatory, uh, during this jubilee year.

De la Cross, you've called purgatory a halfway house, house before.

And, I, I love that, that

.

That's kind of my mental picture of it now.

Uh, so Doctor, how-

Reorientation.

Right, reorientation.

Let's say that I do want to offer a indulgence for a particular person .

do I just say, For this person, I'm doing this act?

Is, is there any sort of formality or how would somebody practically go about saying, oh, this is for grandma or whomever?

Absolutely.

So this is what you do.

You, you perform the act that's Uh, to which the indulgence is attached, like going on pilgrimage, walking through the holy door.

Okay?

Then in conjunction with that, um, 20 days on either side of performing that act, uh, you need to receive Holy Communion and go to confession and pray for the intention of the Pope.

So that's pretty generous.

Mm-hmm.

Usually it's a shorter amount of time, but they've, they've been very generous.

20 days-

Do you offer that-

That's so much

do you offer that in homework to some of your students, 20 days?

I'm not that generous.

My, my deadlines are shorter than that.

Okay?

Yeah.

But, uh, but, but you have a great question.

I would say this.

You, you, you know, when we're being detached from sin too.

Uh-huh.

Okay?

That I, I would suggest this.

On the day that you perform that act to which the indulgence is attached, kneel down, say a prayer, and, um, and, and, and talk to the Lord and say, Lord, I've gained this indulgence.

I would like you to apply it to whomever.

Okay?

But, but make that clear.

M- make it through a prayer, make it through a discreet act so it's just not, like all confused in your head, like, Did I actually do that?

Mm-hmm.

Did I You know?

okay.

Yeah.

Tell the Lord what you're doing in prayer and ask him to apply it to, um, somebody that you have in mind or to the soul that needs it most, et cetera.

And, um-

I love that you make it personal.

Yeah.

Because-

Yeah

a lot of times people can make it seem like a, Well, if I put it in the eye of the newts and the claw of a raven.

You know?

Right?

But you're saying, Look, I'm performing this act for this intention, Lord, please have mercy on this person.

It's a-

Exactly.

It's a intercession, really.

Right.

Yeah.

Uh, so I- I love that, that personalization of it, both towards directly taking it to Christ, but then also remembering that person in there.

And you can do two per day.

That's right.

Actually-

Two per day

Nice

couldn't you?

Two, two for Yep, two days.

You can gain one for yourself, one for somebody in purgatory.

Two for Two for two people in purgatory.

Yeah, it's-

That's like, well, we still got, you know, something around 345 days left of this year round, that's almost like 700 indulgences, man.

Heaven's gonna be, uh, overbooked this year, which I'm-

Yeah

I'm happy to have, uh, participated.

It's, it's a beautiful thing.

You know, but it, it's really about love and it's A- a- as you said, it's, it's very personal.

You know, in the, in the Middle Ages, if you wanted to give alms, uh, the church made you go and do it personally.

You could, you could not give the money to somebody else to go out.

And that's why in the Middle Ages, like kings, queens, princes, et cetera, they would get out in the streets and they would hand out money personally because the church, uh, emphasized that.

Church is always about being personal, um, because we are family, and through Christ, uh, and through the Holy Spirit, we've been made into brothers and sisters.

And the jubilee is all about family, going back all the way to the time of Moses, you know, 1500 BC, when we're talking about reuniting Israelite families and freeing them from service and from anything that would impede that, uh, that family unity, even down to the modern day where, um, you know, this jubilee year is a real time to get reconciled in our own natural families, and also a great time to be reconciled with our spiritual family, which is the Catholic Church.

Yeah, I like that the, the church made even rich people give it personally.

You know, that's where, like, pinatas come from.

I think it was-

Right

the, the royals of the, uh, of, of the family of the Two Sicilies, they would hang pots of coins, you know, in the public square and you'd go and smack and you'd get your coins, and that's where pinatas come from.

Yeah.

Prometheus practice, yeah.

Now, every jubilee year has a particular theme.

Like you said, 2015 was a, was a, um, extraordinary year.

What is the theme for 2025's jubilee?

Yeah.

Pope Francis has made the theme, uh, hope.

Okay?

It was mercy in 2015, but hope.

And I think it's so appropriate because I, I, I think the pope had a sense that there's a sense of, you know, there's a, uh, attitude of despair that we see spreading around the world.

You know, we got this war dragging on and on in U- between Ukraine and Russia.

We got this conflict dragging on, on between Hamas and Israel.

Uh, we have, uh, kind of a worldwide dé- economic downturn, uh, that's causing political upheaval in Europe, in Latin America, in our country, and Asia, pretty much worldwide actually.

And so in, in this kinda, you know, um, dull, gray, wet blanket that ha- seems to have psychologically covered the planet, uh, Pope Francis is saying, Hey, we gotta emphasize, uh, the virtue of hope.

Um, this, this w- this life is not all that there is.

Okay?

Our eternal happiness does not depend on the, uh, international economy, et cetera.

Our eternal happiness depends on what Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross.

So Pope Francis is calling us back to, uh, renewing the source of joy, the source of hope, which is indeed Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit, and hope is one of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

So that's what, that's what the theme is, and in s- in so many different ways, and, and many of the events and the, the, the pilgrimages that the Vatican has organized and the different activities, that we're It's all coming around that theme of hope.

Now, Dr. John, I don't know if you can confirm or deny this, but I've heard potentially that there's two indulged acts that all of our listeners can do.

First is they can click the like and subscribe button.

I don't know if that's an indulged act, but I- I, I would like to think it is.

You definitely get some benefit out of it.

So if you're watching this on YouTube, click Like and Subscribe, or if you're listening to us on Spotify, make sure you click Subscribe.

Or you go to catholictalkshow.com and find all the different ways that you could follow us, whether it's on social media or the different ways we distribute our episodes.

Secondly, you can, uh, support us by going to catholictalkshow.com/Patreon, uh, and there, you can find all the different ways and different tiers, uh, that you could help this show continue to grow.

2025's gonna be a big year for us.

Uh, we're gonna be getting back into the studio and getting back into a more normal cadence hopefully here pretty soon.

So your support goes a long way, and in our gratitude, we have great things like coffee mugs, hoodies, um, rosaries, chaplets, all sorts of stuff that we give to you in our gratitude.

So again, that's catholictalkshow.com/Patreon.

Now, this year of the Jubilee, what are some easy ways that people can really prepare?

'Cause this might be the first time they're hear about it, uh, hearing about it.

What are some things that people can do to really lean into this year, um, to get the most out of it?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Uh, th- three things.

Okay.

There's, there's many things, but I'd like to focus on three things.

First of all, sacraments, okay?

The sacraments, um, you know, when, when we look at Jesus on the cross in John 19:34, we see that flow of blood and water coming from his side.

You know, super quickly, um, this goes back to the Prophet Ezekiel who saw that in the future, uh, the freedom of God's people, really their jubilee, was gonna come from the temple, and that there was gonna be a river flowing out of the temple which is gonna bring life and liberty wherever it went.

Mm-hmm.

Now, in the Gospel of John, we find out that Jesus' body is the true temple.

And on the cross when his body temple flows with that blood and water, that is the river of life and liberty flowing from the side of our new temple.

But it's a sign of the sacraments.

You know, water is baptism.

Blood is Eucharist.

And so the, the sacraments are this river of life and liberty that flows from the body of Christ, from what he did for us on Calvary, perpetually.

So, in Jubilee year 2025, it's a great time to lean in and increase our sacramental participation.

Okay?

If you, if, if you haven't been getting to mass, start getting to mass every Sunday.

If you're going to mass every Sunday, add a weekday mass in 2025.

If you're already going to a weekday mass, add another one.

Okay?

Um, y- Confession.

If you have not been going to confession, you need to be going to confession at least monthly.

If you're already going monthly, step it up to twice a month.

If you're only going twice a month, think about going weekly, okay?

And I, I put my money where my mouth is.

I, I didn't go to confession weekly 'cause I need I, I'm that bad of a sinner.

No, but no.

Yeah.

No, I, I am.

I am.

You know?

And I would say Paul was the sinners, but, but Saint einemiel Escriva, he's a saint that I follow.

He says, you know, Keep short accounts, and, and he recommended weekly, so that's what I do.

So-

Mm-hmm

step up our, our, your sacramental participation, Eucharist, and especially, uh, reconciliation.

So sacraments.

Secondly, pilgrimages.

Okay?

Make the most extravagant pilgrimage that you can afford in this Afford with your health and afford with your money for 2025.

Maybe that means, uh, going to Rome.

Maybe that means going in the footsteps of Saint Paul.

Hopefully Trump will go over, knock some heads together, and we'll get Israel opened up again.

Yeah.

No.

Uh, we, we could pray, you know, and we can start making pilgrimages back to, uh, the Holy Land.

I ma- I usually do one, one a year.

I haven't been able to make one, uh, for s- quite some time here because of what they did back there.

Yeah, we had a sold out one.

We had a sold out one.

I know.

Um-

And it was scheduled to go, like, a month and a half be- you know, after October 7th.

That's awful.

Don't wait until we get back there.

So did I. You know, it, it's such a tragedy, such a tragedy.

But yeah, we gotta pray hard.

But, um, but yeah, make a pilgrimage.

You can't do that, you know, as it Again, get on your diocesan website, find out where your bishop is designated.

Go to one of these national shrines.

You know, do that experience.

Try to do as much of it on foot.

It is really a life transforming experience.

And, uh, and then thirdly, those indulgences.

Okay?

Learning to perform those, those acts and, and following requirements of the church and making that part of our spirituality and trying to get some souls released from, uh, purgatory.

I know we talked about it in the month of November, but 2025 is we should be talking about this all, uh, year long, trying to help our, um, our faithful departed, uh, brothers and sisters, uh, to make that last step into heaven.

So sacraments, pilgrimages, and indulgences is These are three things.

There's more that we could talk about too.

We could talk about-

But you missed some One really important one.

Yeah.

Yeah, and this is I'm surprised you miss it.

There's This is one that I absolutely recommend for everybody getting this book, right?

Oh,Year.

This is a fantastic primer and a deep dive, really, into why the Jubilee is so important.

Um, and it's not a super heavy book.

About You know, there's some I mean, it gets to the heart of the matter in a really deep way.

Uh

By the way, it's open to a page.

In particular, as Pink Floyd used to sing, We don't need a tradition.

Cool.

Um- The Pink Floyd thing.

So tell us a little bit about Jesus and the Jubilee, um, why you wrote this book, and what a reader can expect when they get this book.

Yeah, the reason I wrote the book is because i- it dawned on me when Pope Francis announced this Jubilee Year that this might be the last one I live to.

Okay?

The next one's gonna come another 25 years.

I'm gonna be 70-something.

You know, who knows?

I cro- keep the fingers crossed, right?

Exercise every day.

But i- it's just not guaranteed.

Mm-hmm.

And, and the thing of the matter is, like, my, my life has personally been impacted by the jubilee in such a powerful way.

Um, I went down, I went to the University of Notre Dame while they were getting ready for the Jubilee Year.

I was there when Jubilee Year 2000 dawned.

And like I told you, I began as an anti-Catholic, Calvinist Protestant.

I ended that year, in December, literally picking up a phone and calling a priest friend and asking how I could become part of the Catholic Church.

I tell that story in another place, in another book and, and et cetera, but I, I went through that journey.

And it, it when I was, I was recalling that, I was like, You know what?

I never realized, but the Jubilee Year was impacting me even though I didn't believe in it.

And it was also during that year, guys, that my, the, uh, the advisor that I was working under in my doctoral program at the University of Notre Dame, he told me, You should work on the Year of Jubilee as your dissertation project.

So, I did that.

So, like, one of like four guys in the world, okay, that has actually written an entire study on- on the Year of Jubilee, like done all this research and like It's like I got all this stuff in my brain and this is the last jubilee that I might experiencscaled.

I wanna get this out, you know, in a way that folks can understand before it's too late.

So like, I gotta boil it all down, you know, keep it simple, but e- e- keep it to the ba- the basics.

But I wrote this book to really encourage people to embrace the Year of Jubilee and not to be ho-hum, not to be skeptical, not to be cynical about it, but say, No, I want to embrace this like a little child.

Just like Jesus says, Only the little children can come into heaven.

I wanna have a child-like spirit and say, Yes, if the, if the Successor Peter says that this is a holy year, I'm gonna embrace it as a holy year and I'm gonna lean into these practices.

And I also wrote the book to show what the biblical roots I mean, that's in the title, Biblical Roots of the Year of God's, uh, Lord's Favor.

I think so many people don't realize that this is rooted in the Bible.

Catholics don't realize it, Protestants don't realize it, okay?

And I, I go through chapter by chapter.

Look, this starts w- way in the beginning.

It even, in a sense, goes back to creation, talk about that, 'cause creation is the, you know, Adam and Eve in the garden, that's the model of freedom that the jubilee was meant to restore.

So, it begins there, you know, and it, and it heads into heaven, because heaven's like the ultimate jubilee.

It's the ultimate, you know, experience of freedom and fullness and family and t- everything.

So, the jubilee is really at the heart of the biblical message.

So, I wanna get that across to people so they can see, yeah, you know, jubilee is some, some kinda extra that we add on.

It's really at the heart of what Jesus is trying to bring when he shows up as our savior.

So, when we, when we, uh, you know, embrace the practice of the jubilee, it, it's, it's rooted in the word of God and, uh, and, and there is a, a beautiful harmony and a beautiful, you know, what they call continuity between what the, uh, ancient people of Israel practiced, what we read about in the Scriptures, what our Lord came to do in the Gospels in the New Testament, and then what we're doing today and what we're experiencing even right now in, uh, January of, uh, 2025.

Yeah, so if you wanna get this book and use this as a way to introduce yourself to the biblical roots of the jubilee and why it's such an important thing for you to participate in 2025, you can go to CatholicTalkShow.com/Jubilee, J-U-B-I-L-E-E.

You'll see it right there on the screen.

Uh, and pick up this book.

I mean, this is something that I think will really help you get the most out of this year and really, um, accept the graces that are being offered.

You know, that's one of the things that people s- don't often do, is that they don't accept the grace, right?

And this is something you're always telling me, is like, There's so much grace around us.

People just need to open their hands and take it.

This book will really help you down that path towards it.

There's a lot to give away, too.

There's a lotta grace to give away.

Right.

I mean, let's talk about our love, our loved ones, uh, folks in purgatory, these sacrifices that we can make for others as well.

Ryan, can you imagine one of us walking up into heaven with the 700 people that we got outta purgatory this year?

We're like, Yo, we're finally here.

What's up?

Hi, five.

And the 700 people said, Dude, dude, you're the one who got me outta purgatory.

Let's go!

Where's that Bergsma guy?

He-

That-

He, he's the one we need to give credit to.

Yeah.

Right?

Um

And how about, I tell people, this is a year to pray big, too, okay?

If you've got something big on your heart, if you're a ministry, you guys are a ministry, it's a time to pray big for your, uh, Catholic Talk Show.

Pray big for our parishes.

Pray big for our postulates.

It's a time to pray big, believe big, because God can do powerful things in this year, 2025.

Man, that's amazing.

So, I'm also going to put a link here.

Uh, it'll be on our social medias, it will be in the description below, to that Vatican document that Dr. Bergsma brought up earlier that talks about all the different, uh, indulgences that you can get this year.

So, I'll make sure that that's available to you all.

And then, also, Ryan, I think it's, you know, I'm glad that, uh, Doctor, you brought this up, is we're gonna definitely make sure that, for those of you who cannot go on pilgrimages this year, uh, we'll put together a, a, you know, cul- chat group or we'll share all the things so that you can participate in the pilgrimage that we're taking and you can participate in these indulged plenary-

Yep

uh, acts.

So, we'll definitely be carrying your intentions with us as we go to the Four Holy Doors in Rome.

And again, I wanna remind you to go to CatholicTalkShow.com/Jubilee and you can get this book by Dr. Bergsma.

We should get a shirt that says like, Purgatory Posse, and then when we die with it- we get up there, we're like, Yeah, where are you?

Yeah, dude, alright.

All the Oh, there, they are over there.

Yeah.

That's great.

Oh, man, Heaven's gonna love us, right?

Yeah.

When we get there.

Yeah.

All right, you're gonna print it.

I'll buy one, Ryan.

Purgatory posse.

All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to this episode.

I know this has made a, a huge dent in my understanding of, of jubilees.

I, I don't think there's anybody more well-qualified to do that than you, Dr. Bergsma, so-

Thanks

uh, really appreciate you on here.

I know there's gonna be a lot of fruit.

And, Ryan, you look like you wanna say something.

I'm just holding up the book.

I'm just doing my best-

Uh, yeah

uh, product shot.

You're doing your Vanna White?

Well-

That's it

appreciate you guys joining us.

Thank you, Dr. Bergsma, and we will-

Yeah

see everybody next week with a new topic.

And fresh smiles.