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Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.76,0:00:22.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那我们就先来祈祷吧。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, let's start in with a prayer.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:22.10,0:00:24.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因父、及子、及圣灵之名。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.06,0:00:24.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}阿们。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Amen.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.60,0:00:36.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}主啊，我们求你差遣你的圣灵进入我们的心，使我们能更深地\N爱慕和珍惜弥撒圣祭的恩赐。以上所求是靠我们的主基督。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Lord, we ask you to send your Holy Spirit into our hearts so that we may come to a deeper love and appreciation for the gift of the sacrifice of the Mass, through Christ our Lord.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.46,0:00:37.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}阿们……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Amen....
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.40,0:00:39.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}及子、及圣灵。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:39.06,0:00:52.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在圣餐课程的第八讲里，我们要来看一些针对弥撒祭献性的\N反对意见，这些反对主要是在宗教改革时期由新教提出的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, in this episode eight of our Eucharist course, we're gonna look at some objections to the sacrificial dimension of the Mass, um, objections very strongly raised by the Protestant Reformation.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:52.06,0:01:04.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们在上一讲看到，教会最初的十五个世纪里，弥撒的祭献性\N几乎被所有人视为理所当然，这在教父们的著作中也很明显。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, we saw in the last episode that for the first 15 centuries of the church, the sacrificial dimension of the Mass was pretty much taken for granted by all, and we saw that in the Fathers.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.50,0:01:18.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}大家都会引用玛拉基书1章11节的预言，把圣餐视为那洁净\N祭品的实现，也就是「从日出到日落」都献上的祭品，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Everyone cites the prophecy of Malachi 1:11, um, seeing the Eucharist as the realization of that prophecy of a clean oblation, that is a sacrifice offered from the rising of the sun to its setting, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.26,0:01:21.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而且这段经文也被纳入了第二式圣餐祷文里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that's made its way into the, um, second Eucharistic prayer.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.60,0:01:33.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但到了十六世纪宗教改革时期，路德否定了弥撒的\N祭献性，几乎整个新教世界都跟随了他的观点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, but in the 16th century, in the Reformation, Luther rejected the, the sacrificial dimension of the Mass and was followed by pretty much the entire Protestant world.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:33.78,0:01:39.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，也不能说所有新教徒都是如此，但绝大多数都是这样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Nothing, can't say anything of all Protestants, but, um, for, um, the great majority.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.66,0:01:42.04,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那么，路德是怎么说的呢……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, Luther said...
Dialogue: 0,0:01:42.04,0:01:48.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们先来看马丁·路德的反对意见，然后再从公教的角度作出回应。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, let's look first at Martin Luther and his objections, and then give a response from the Catholic perspective.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.44,0:01:59.22,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}路德对弥撒祭献性的攻击，始于1520年他那本\N具有开创性的著作《教会的巴比伦之囚》，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, Luther's attack on the sacrifice of the Mass, um, began in 1520 with his, um, seminal book, um, The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.22,0:02:03.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这本书在他与教会决裂的那一年产生了极大影响。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, a very influential book in the year in which he broke from the church.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.10,0:02:22.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在这本书里，他把弥撒被理解为善工和祭献视为教会的第三重囚禁，甚至说\N这是魔鬼的发明，尽管他也承认，教会传统几百年来都把弥撒看作祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And in this book, he saw the Mass understood as a good work and sacrifice as the third captivity of the church, and an invention of the devil, although he admitted it was seen as a sacrifice for centuries and centuries by the tradition of the church.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.28,0:02:23.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.38,0:02:29.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以他基本上认为，整个教会的传统在这一点上是根本错误的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so he had to basically hold that the whole tradition of the church got this fundamentally wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:29.94,0:02:55.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他之所以如此关注这个问题，是因为这与他「唯独因信称义」的教\N义密切相关，而不是靠行为。他认为弥撒是公教徒试图靠行为——\N也就是献弥撒祭——来使自己称义，这与因信称义的教义相对立。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And the reason why he focused so much on this issue was because it was intimately tied to his doctrine of justification by faith alone and not by works, and he saw the Mass as an attempt by Catholics to, um, justify ourselves by works, um, the work of the offering of the sacrifice of the Mass, which he opposed to justification by faith.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.96,0:03:11.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}约瑟夫·拉青格对路德的立场有个很好的总结，他说：「归根结底，对路德来\N说，人和神之间只有两种对立的关系方式：律法之路和信心之路。」对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, a good summary of Luther's position is given by Joseph Ratzinger, who says this, quote, "In the final analysis, for Luther, there are only two ways, opposing ways of relating to God, the way of law and the way of faith." Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.16,0:03:16.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以这是种对立的思路——律法与信心，或者律法与福音。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So it's a dialectical kind of thought, um, law and faith or law and Gospel.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:16.18,0:03:23.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「信心的方向与律法的方向完全相反。」这还是拉青格的话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}"The direction of faith is diametrically opposite to that of the law." This is still a quote by Ratzinger.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:23.82,0:03:28.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「信心之路是领受神的恩惠，而不是献上礼物。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}"It is receiving divine favor," the way of faith, "not offering gifts.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:28.64,0:03:35.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，基督徒的敬拜本质上只能是领受，而不是给予。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Consequently, Christian worship, by its very nature, can be receiving only, not giving.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.76,0:03:42.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}敬拜就是接受神在基督耶稣里所成就的救恩，这就已经完全足够了。」引文结束。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It is acceptance of God's saving deed in Christ Jesus which suffices once and for all." Unquote.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.06,0:03:53.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们在上一讲和许多集里都看到，圣餐包含着上升和下降的互动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, we saw in the last talk and, and many of the episodes that, um, the Eucharist, um, involves an alternation of ascending and descending movements.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.02,0:04:07.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是有道理的，因为这是耶稣基督——我们的至高祭司、完美的中保——的\N行动。他作为神与人之间的中保，通过献祭和领受祝福来完成中保的工作。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that makes sense because it's the act of Jesus Christ, the high priest, our perfect mediator, the mediator between God and man who mediates by offering sacrifice and receiving blessing.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.02,0:04:28.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们也看到，挪亚和世界上其他一切祭献也是如此，只不过耶稣献\N上的是唯一完美的祭品，给神带来极丰盛的尊荣和荣耀，因此有了\N上升的层面，也因此配得领受各种恩典，尤其是圣餐的恩典。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we saw that was the case also with Noah and with all the other sacrifices of the world, with the difference that Jesus offered the one perfect sacrifice that gives to God super abundant honor and glory, and thus has this ascending dimension which then is what merits to receive, um, the graces and above all the grace of Holy Communion.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:28.72,0:04:32.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们所领受的，正是那位被献上的祭品。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We receive the very victim who was offered in sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:32.78,0:04:40.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而对路德来说，弥撒的这种双重方向，他完全不能接受。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, for Luther, um, that twofold direction of the Mass, um, he thinks i- well, it's simply anathema for him.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:40.42,0:04:43.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在他看来，只能有一个方向，就是领受。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It can only be one direction, receiving.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.40,0:04:46.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以这不是一个小问题，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So this is not a small, um, problem, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.32,0:04:48.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是个很大的挑战。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is, um, challenging.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.28,0:04:57.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}可以说，弥撒的本质就在于这种既上升又下降的互动。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We could say the very essence of the Mass as this ascending as well as descending, um, um, movement.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:57.24,0:05:02.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:02.84,0:05:08.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，按照路德的观点，人只能从神那里领受，不能给予。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So basically from Luther, one can only receive from God and can't give.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.36,0:05:11.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}只有耶稣能给予，我们不能。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's only Jesus who gives, right, and we can't.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:11.34,0:05:17.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这或许正是路德救恩观的关键缺陷。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this is maybe the key flaw of Luther's, um, conception of salvation.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.42,0:05:17.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.86,0:05:28.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}基督之所以成为我们的救主，正是因为他使我们\N与他结合，使我们参与到他那完美的奉献中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Christ is our savior precisely by configuring us to him, and therefore configuring us and making us participants in his perfect offering.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:28.98,0:05:35.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，他赐给我们恩典，使我们能够把自己奉献回去。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And of course he does that by giving us gifts so that we can offer ourselves back.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:35.08,0:05:36.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.30,0:05:42.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而这其实源自于路德对圣餐以及所有圣事的理解。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this, um, stems from Luther's understanding of s- not just the Eucharist but all the sacraments.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:42.14,0:05:45.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他认为所有圣事都只是领受。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He sees all of the sacraments as simply a receiving.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.50,0:05:50.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，其他六件圣事主要确实是领受。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now it's true that the other six sacraments are principally a receiving.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:50.40,0:05:56.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}唯有圣餐既是圣事，也是祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's only the Eucharist that is also a sacrifice as well as a sacrament.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:56.60,0:06:06.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，路德是从一种对圣事的定义出发来论证的，这种定义只强调……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so therefore, Luther argues from a definition of sacrifice, I'm sorry, a definition of sacrament which is only, um-...
Dialogue: 0,0:06:06.08,0:06:12.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}圣事只是一个可见的应许，让我们因信基督在加略山的救赎工作而获得罪得赦免。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}a visual promise of the forgiveness of our sins through faith in Christ's work of redemption on Calvary.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:12.78,0:06:24.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，所有圣事本质上只是对赦罪应许的信心，是一种可见或可感的赦罪应许。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And thus, all the sacraments are only, um, essentially faith in the promise, a visual or sensible promise of forgiveness.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:24.38,0:06:28.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，他就这样论证……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so, he argues...
Dialogue: 0,0:06:28.08,0:06:36.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我引用路德的许多话，主要来自他在宗教改革初期、1522年写的《弥撒的滥用》一书。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So I'm taking many of the quotes from Luther from a work from 1522, right after the beginning of the Reformation, called Misuse of the Mass.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.96,0:06:44.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在这本书里，他进一步发展了《教会的巴比伦之囚》里提出的观点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And he develops further in this work what he, um, kind of set out in The Babylonian Captivity of the Church.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.12,0:06:50.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他写道：「祭献和应许之间的距离，比日出和日落还要遥远。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So he writes, quote, "Sacrifice and promise are further apart than sunrise and sunset.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.16,0:06:55.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}祭献是一种行为，是我们把属于自己的东西献给神。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}A sacrifice is a work in which we present and give to God something of our own.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:55.34,0:07:00.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而应许则是神的话语，把神的恩典和怜悯赐给人。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The promise, however, is God's word, which gives to man the grace and mercy of God.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:00.50,0:07:12.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，把神的应许变成人的祭献，把神威严的话语变成卑微受\N造物的行为，这不仅是错误的，而且是人理性无法理解的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So it is not merely false, but also incomprehensible to human reason to make out of God's promise a human sacrifice, and out of the word of divine majesty a work of a lowly creature.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:12.50,0:07:13.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那么……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}How then...
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.34,0:07:23.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们怎么能把神赐给我们的凭据和印记，当作我们自己的祭献和行为呢？」引文结束。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}How can we then, out of this pledge and seal of God, given to us as a gift, make a sacrifice and work of our own?" Unquote.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:23.46,0:07:26.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好了，这就是路德对公教传统的挑战。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right, so that's Luther's challenge to the Catholic tradition.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:26.68,0:07:29.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那我们该如何回应呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So how should we respond?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.34,0:07:32.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我会从三个方面来回应。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So I'm gonna respond in three ways, three points.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:32.16,0:07:40.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}首先，他把弥撒的祭献性看成是人类自己的祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}First of all, um, he sees, um, the sacrifice of the Mass as essentially a human sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.72,0:07:43.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但事实并非如此，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But that's not what it is, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:43.40,0:07:58.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}正如我们在上一讲和之前所说，弥撒之所以如此荣耀，是因为它主要\N不是我们的祭献，而是加略山的祭献在祭台上以圣事的方式临现。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Because we've been, as we said in the last episode and all through, the Mass is so glorious because it's not principally our sacrifice, but principally the sacrifice of Calvary made sacramentally present on the altar.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.72,0:07:59.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:59.12,0:08:00.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那是耶稣的祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's Jesus' sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:00.62,0:08:03.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这不是单纯的人类行为，而是神人性的工作。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's not a human work, it's a divine human work.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.90,0:08:08.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，我们也要奉献自己的自我祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And yes, we're to contribute our own, um, self-oblation.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:08.88,0:08:11.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也就是把我们的生命、我们的基督徒生活奉献出来。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That means the offering of our lives, our Christian lives.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.18,0:08:13.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们下次会更详细地谈这个。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we'll talk about that more in the next talk.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.08,0:08:18.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以说，我们确实有参与，但主要的工作是耶稣基督的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, so yes, we contribute, but the principal work is that of Jesus Christ.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:18.94,0:08:19.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:19.28,0:08:26.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}弥撒的荣耀就在于，我们可以把自己微小的奉献与他无限的奉献结合在一起。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And the glory of the Mass is we get to put our little offerings together with his infinite offering.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:26.32,0:08:31.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，这主要不是人的工作，而是神人性的工作。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So it's not principally a human work, but a divine human work.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.60,0:08:33.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}明白了吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.46,0:08:35.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是第一个，也是最重要的观点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that's the first point and the most important.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.34,0:08:41.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}第二点，是参与的原则。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Secondly, the principle of participation.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:41.78,0:08:48.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}公教神学始终强调参与的原则。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Catholic theology, um, uses throughout the principle of participation.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.46,0:08:55.04,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}基督所做的一切，都是为了把我们纳入他自己里面。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}What Christ did, he did for us so as to incorporate us into himself.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:55.04,0:08:57.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是奥体的教义。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's the doctrine of the mystical body.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:57.18,0:08:57.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:57.92,0:09:09.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果我们是基督身体的肢体，而他是元首，那么身体和头的生命不能分离，必须合而为一。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If we're members of the body of Christ and he's our head, um, the life of the body and the head can't be disparate, but have to be one.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:09.18,0:09:13.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，如果头在奉献，身体也必须奉献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So if the head is offering, the body has to offer too.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.20,0:09:14.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:14.28,0:09:19.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是贯穿整个公教信心的一个关键原则。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this is a key principle that we could say, um, we can find throughout the Catholic faith.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:19.90,0:09:21.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}它把公教信心紧密联系在一起。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It ties together the Catholic faith.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.76,0:09:25.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}基督的奥体，构成了整个基督。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The mystical body of Christ making up the whole Christ.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:25.68,0:09:26.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是奥古斯丁圣人的一句话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's a phrase of Saint Augustine.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:26.94,0:09:27.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他非常喜欢这句话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He loved it.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.50,0:09:35.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}说到整个基督，Totus Christus，就\N是头与肢体联合成为一个整体，也就是一个教会。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Speak of the whole Christ, Totus Christus, head and members joined together into one, um, one church.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:35.94,0:09:37.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:37.74,0:09:43.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，教会作为新娘，通过与元首的奥秘结合——也就是我们——\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So through her mysterious union with her head, the bride, the church, us, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:43.90,0:09:51.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们得到了恩典，可以在圣事中与主一起共同奉献祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We've been given the gift of joining sacramentally in co-offering the sacrifice of our Lord.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:51.14,0:09:52.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:52.34,0:09:53.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是多么荣耀的事。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's so glorious.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.32,0:09:59.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}正如我们将来要分享他的复活，如今也因恩典分享他的神性生命。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Just as we will share in his resurrection and as now we share in his divine life through grace.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.94,0:10:00.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:00.32,0:10:04.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}奥体的教义贯穿整个公教神学。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It permeates the, all of Catholic theology, um, this doctrine of the mystical body.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:04.90,0:10:07.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:07.20,0:10:08.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}第三点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Third.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.14,0:10:09.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}第三个回应。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Third response.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:09.80,0:10:19.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}基督是神与人之间完美的中保，他的中保不仅仅是向下赐予恩典，也有向上奉献的层面。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Christ is the perfect mediator between God and man, and his mediation works not just in a descending way, giving us gifts, but in an ascending way.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.82,0:10:30.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}路德当然也会承认，在加略山上，基督荣耀了父神，并为罪作了赎罪祭。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And Luther would certainly acknowledge that, right, and hold that, that on Calvary, um, Christ, um, glorified his father and expiate atone for sin.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:30.72,0:10:33.90,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们稍后还会再谈赎罪的问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We'll, we'll come back to the question of atonement a little bit further on.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:33.90,0:10:37.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但是，如果……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, but, um, so if that's...
Dialogue: 0,0:10:37.92,0:10:54.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果基督的中保有双重方向——既奉献祭献，也领受祝福——那\N么他当然希望这种双重中保在教会的生活中继续下去，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If Christ is mediator in two directions, offering sacrifice and receiving blessing, right, then it makes sense that he would want that twofold mediation to continue through the life of the church, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:54.56,0:11:12.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，圣餐就是加略山祭献的圣事性延续，在教会生活\N中临现那完美的上升中保，从父那里把恩典带到世界。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And therefore the Eucharist is that sacramental prolongation of the sacrifice of Calvary, um, making present in the life of the church that perfect ascending mediation so as to pull down, um, from the Father, right, the graces unto the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:12.96,0:11:19.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这也会是我们第十讲的主题——弥撒中倾注到世界的恩典。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that'll be the subject of our tenth talk, the graces poured down on the world from the Mass.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:19.72,0:11:20.54,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}明白了吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:20.54,0:11:28.22,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，圣餐既有上升的祭献层面，也有下降的成圣层面。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So the Eucharist has both an ascending sacrificial dimension and a descending sanctifying dimension.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.22,0:11:30.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:30.30,0:11:40.70,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}马丁·路德提出的另一个反对意见其实很明显，而且至今\N在新教徒甚至可惜的是在一些公教徒中都很有影响力。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Another objection that Martin Luther made was rather obvious, and I think very influential today, um, among both Protestants and tragically Catholics.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:40.70,0:11:43.100,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}耶稣说：「你们要吃，要喝。」对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, Jesus says, "Eat and drink." Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.100,0:11:50.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以路德得出的结论是，我们对这个圣事所要做的就是吃和喝。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so the conclusion that Luther draws from this is that's all we're to do with this sacrament, eat and drink.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.32,0:11:54.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，这里再引用《弥撒的滥用》里的话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Therefore, this is a quote again from The Misuse of the Mass.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.16,0:12:02.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「因此，他掰开饼，递给我们，吩咐我们拿去吃喝，这样做是为了记念他并宣扬他的死。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}"Therefore, he breaks it, he gives it, he tells us to take it so that we eat and drink it, and in so doing, remember him and proclaim his death.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.78,0:12:06.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我们所吃所喝的，并不是祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But what we eat and drink, we do not sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:06.88,0:12:08.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们只是自己保留并吃喝。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We keep it for ourselves and consume it.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.80,0:12:16.15,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}献给神的祭品和被我们吃喝，这两者是不能并存的。」\N{\an2\fs10\i1}To sacrifice to God and to be consumed by us are incompatible ideas."...
Dialogue: 0,0:12:16.15,0:12:24.03,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「利未人接受以色列百姓的祭品，但他们不会吃那些要献给神的祭品。」引文结束。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}the Levites took the offerings of the people of Israel, but they didn't eat any of that which was to be sacrificed to God." Unquote.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.03,0:12:26.21,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好了，这就是路德的反对意见。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right, so that's Luther, Luther's objection.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:26.21,0:12:28.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果是筵席，就不是祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If it's a meal, it's not a sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:28.65,0:12:36.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而且，二十世纪以来，甚至直到今天，也有一些公教神学家提出类似的观点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And again, Catholic theologians in the 20th century, um, and up, up to now, um, make a similar argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.39,0:12:38.55,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那么我们该怎么回应呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right, so what should we say?
Dialogue: 0,0:12:38.55,0:12:44.21,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}典型的公教回应不是「非此即彼」，而是「两者兼有」。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Typical Catholic response, not an either/or but a both/and.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:44.21,0:12:44.71,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:12:44.71,0:13:04.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}没错，耶稣确实说「你们拿去吃」，但他也说「这是为你们舍的\N身体」和「为多人流出来的血」。换句话说，我们在第四讲看到\N，设立圣餐的叙述表明最后的晚餐，也就是弥撒，是一次祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Yes, indeed Jesus says, "Take and eat," but he also says, "Take and eat this body given for you and the blood poured out." In other words, we saw in the fourth episode that the, um, the institution narrative shows that the, um, the last supper and therefore the mass, um, is a sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:04.87,0:13:08.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他用了非常祭献性的语言。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He uses deeply sacrificial language.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:08.29,0:13:09.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}明白了吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right?
Dialogue: 0,0:13:09.57,0:13:14.23,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，弥撒既是祭献，也是筵席，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, the mass is both sacrifice and banquet, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.23,0:13:22.05,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}关键原则就是，弥撒首先是祭献，然后才是筵席。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, this is the key principle, um, and that, um, it's first sacrificed before it's banquet.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.05,0:13:24.83,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}以色列的祭献也是如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that was true of the sacrifices of Israel as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:24.83,0:13:25.95,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}比如逾越节。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Take the Passover.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:25.95,0:13:32.87,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}逾越节的羔羊是在尼散月十四日下午先在圣殿里被宰杀，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Passover was first sacrificed in the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan in the temple, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.87,0:13:42.35,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那天下午，成千上万只羔羊被宰杀，血倒在祭坛上，场面极为壮观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Then we had that spectacle of, I don't know, 20, 30, 40,000 lambs being sacrificed with their blood poured out on the altar in that one afternoon.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:42.35,0:13:53.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}然后，被宰杀的羔羊被带回去烤熟，信徒们在日落后那天晚上一起吃用。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, and then the lamb that was sacrificed was taken, roasted, and consumed by the faithful in the, that evening after sunset.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:53.85,0:14:00.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，逾越节的羔羊既被献祭，也被吃用。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so, the Paschal Lamb was both sacrificed and consumed.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:00.29,0:14:01.09,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:14:01.09,0:14:03.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这正是圣餐的预表。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that's the key type of the Eucharist.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:03.53,0:14:25.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}同样，耶稣基督，我们真正的神羔羊，在弥撒中奥秘地被奉献，\N这体现在两次祝圣中——他的身体和宝血在祭台上分别临现，就\N像在加略山上肉身被分离一样，在这里以圣事的方式临现。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So too Jesus Christ, our true lamb of God, is first immolated in the mass mystically, and that happens in the twofold, the double consecration, right, making his body and his blood present on the altar separated, right, as he was, as it was physically on Calvary, here sacramentally on the altar.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:25.29,0:14:28.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}紧接着，教会就把这祭献奉献给神，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And immediately, the church offers that sacrifice, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:14:28.81,0:14:50.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是为什么在圣餐设立叙述后，祭司在纪念祷文中会说：「我们把这无瑕的祭\N献奉献给你。」所以，弥撒首先是祭献，然后在圣餐领受中才是筵席，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that's what the priest says right after the, the institution narrative in the anamnesis, um, remembering, um, the, the passion, the Paschal Mystery, "We offer you," right, "this immaculate sacrifice." So, it's first a sacrifice and then in Holy Communion, it's banquet, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:14:50.53,0:14:51.25,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，两者兼有。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, it's both.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:51.25,0:15:05.69,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们所领受的，正是那位先被奉献的祭品，就像以\N色列人吃用那天下午先被献上的羔羊一样，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we receive the very victim who was first offered just as in Israel, they received, they ate the lamb that was first offered in that afternoon, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:05.69,0:15:12.69,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，弥撒是祭献性的筵席，既是祭献，也是筵席。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so, the mass is a sacrificial banquet, both sacrifice and banquet.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:12.69,0:15:32.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}先有祭献，后有筵席；即使在筵席的层面，我们所领受的也是被献上的祭品，\N使我们与他的祭献相契合，也就是与为神和为人的祭献之爱相契合，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}First sacrifice before banquet, but even in the banquet aspect, we're receiving the sacrificed victim so as to be conformed to his sacrifice, that is to be conformed to sacrificial love, um, for God and neighbor, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:32.29,0:15:34.23,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}完全的自我奉献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Total gift of self.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:34.23,0:15:36.33,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.33,0:15:39.99,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，弥撒本质上是祭献性的筵席。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, the mass is essentially a sacrificial banquet.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:39.99,0:15:47.75,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}不是普通的筵席，而是像以色列的祭献那样，我们吃用被奉献的祭品的筵席。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Not any sort of banquet, right, but a banquet in which we consume the victim offered as in the sacrifices of Israel.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:47.75,0:15:48.35,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，并不是所有祭献都是如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Not all of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:48.35,0:15:53.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在以色列，有燔祭是完全献给神的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There, in Israel, there was the burnt offering which was, um, entirely, um, given to God.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.65,0:16:06.23,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但以色列的大多数祭献，至少祭司和利未人可以吃用，许多祭献连献祭的信徒也可以吃用。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But most of the sacrifice of Israel, um, were in fact received by, um, at least the priests and Levites and, and many other sacrifices also by the faithful who offered them.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.23,0:16:17.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们在逾越节、感恩祭和平安祭中都能看到这一点，这些都是圣餐的重要预表。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, and we see that, um, in the Passover, but also in, um, the offerings of Thanksgiving and peace offerings, which are a key type of the Eucharist.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.39,0:16:17.83,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.83,0:16:23.09,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}平安祭就是信徒把祭品献给神后自己吃用。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The peace offerings were consumed by the faithful, um, after they offered them to God.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.09,0:16:23.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.29,0:16:29.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，路德说「如果是祭献就不能吃用」这种说法，是错误的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So it, what Luther said, um, sacrifice, "If it's sacrificed, it's not consumed." That's false.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:29.17,0:16:36.47,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}无论在旧约还是新约，这都是错误的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Even, uh, false in terms of the Old Testament and false in terms of the New.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:36.47,0:16:36.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:36.85,0:16:37.51,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}圣餐。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Eucharist.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:37.51,0:16:39.43,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}明白了吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:39.43,0:16:41.19,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}是「两者兼有」，不是「非此即彼」。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Both/and rather than either/or.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:41.19,0:16:49.13,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们在第四讲分析设立圣餐的叙述时也看到了这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we saw this in the fourth episode when we looked at the, um, the language of the institution narrative.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:49.13,0:16:53.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这里我引用若望保禄二世在《教会与圣餐》第12段的话。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, I'm gonna quote here John Paul II in Ecclesiae Dei Eucharistia 12.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.29,0:17:00.37,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他说：「耶稣并没有只是说他要给他们吃喝的是他的身体和宝血。」对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He says, quote, "Jesus didn't simply state that what he was giving them to eat and drink was his body and blood." Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:00.37,0:17:00.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}确实如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's true.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:00.85,0:17:11.57,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但他也表达了其中的祭献意义，并以圣事的方式临现了他的\N祭献，这祭献很快就要在十字架上为众人的得救而献上。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But he also expressed its sacrificial meaning and made sacramentally present his sacrifice, right, which would soon be offered on the cross for the salvation of all.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:11.57,0:17:13.09,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也就是第二天。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That is, the very next day.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.09,0:17:18.01,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.01,0:17:23.81,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，耶稣说，我们要领受那为我们先被奉献的身体。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, Jesus says that, yes, we are to take and eat that body first given for us.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:23.81,0:17:28.17,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们要喝那为多人先流出来的宝血。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We are to drink that blood first poured out for many.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.17,0:17:29.53,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:29.53,0:17:32.77,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，耶稣的身体有两重奉献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So there's a double giving of Jesus' body.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.77,0:17:35.85,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我觉得许多公教徒也忽略了这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I think many of the Catholic people likewise miss this.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.85,0:17:36.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:36.29,0:17:40.59,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}耶稣首先奉献给父神，然后才赐给信徒。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Jesus is given first to the Father and then to the faithful.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:40.59,0:17:43.69,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:43.69,0:17:54.39,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这也象征着整个基督徒生活——爱神和爱人，而我们首先要归向神，就是归向父。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Which is also a kind of image of the whole Christian life, love for God and neighbor, and there's a primacy on our ordering to God, right, to the Father.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:54.39,0:18:00.15,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}是的，献祭本质上……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Yeah, so the offering of sacrifice, um, is essentially...
Dialogue: 0,0:18:00.15,0:18:11.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我认为，许多人反对弥撒的祭献性，部分原因是我们对以色列和异教的祭献都不熟悉。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So, I think part of the objection to the sacrificial dimension of the mass, um, comes from the fact that we're simply unfamiliar with the sacrifices of, um, of Israel and the pagan religions.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.65,0:18:12.29,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:12.29,0:18:16.07,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而这正是因为福音成功地改变了世界。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that's because of the very success of the gospel in converting the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.07,0:18:16.65,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.65,0:18:23.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，其他的祭献在很大程度上已经从人类文化中消失了……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So other sacrifices have, um, more or less fallen out of, of human culture....
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.52,0:18:24.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}基本上如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}for the most part.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:24.12,0:18:31.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}因此，我们对这些祭献不熟悉，也就忽略了祭献和筵席之间的联系。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And therefore, we're unfam- familiar with them and we miss the fact of this link between sacrifice and feast.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:31.50,0:18:34.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但如果我们仔细读旧约，就会发现这种联系无处不在。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But if we read the Old Testament attentively, we see it everywhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:34.88,0:18:35.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}明白了吗？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:35.58,0:18:46.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}献祭和筵席一样，都是群体性的活动。在古代文化\N，尤其是在以色列，这两者通常是一起进行的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So the offering of sacrifice, like feasting, are communal events, and typically in, um, ancient culture in general and particularly in Israel, they went together.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.02,0:18:46.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.44,0:18:53.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}以色列的大型群体筵席，比如逾越节，首先是祭献，其他节期也是如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The great communal feasting, the Passover, was first a sacrifice, and the same for all the other feasts of Israel.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:53.84,0:18:54.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:54.64,0:18:58.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}古典世界也是如此。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And likewise for, um, the, um, the classical world.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:58.82,0:19:15.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我觉得今天的人，尤其是公教徒，喜欢强调筵席的部分，因为我们把筵席\N理解为群体性的，而对祭献的群体性却不太理解，其实我们应该明白。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I think part of the, um, people like today, Catholics anyway, um, like to emphasize the banquet part because we s- understand it as communal, whereas we don't understand sacrifice as communal, but we ought to.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:15.06,0:19:15.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:15.28,0:19:16.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以回到……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so going back to the...
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.52,0:19:21.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在上一讲我们看到，祭献……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}in the preceding episode, in the last episode, we saw that sacrifice is...
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.86,0:19:24.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}本质上就有群体性的层面。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}by its very nature has a communal dimension.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.68,0:19:26.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}和……不同的是，\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And unlike...
Dialogue: 0,0:19:26.52,0:19:32.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}祷告可以是个人的，也可以是群体的，但祭献本质上就是群体性的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So prayer can be personal as well as communal, but sacrifice by its nature is communal.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:32.42,0:19:39.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}祭献是以可见的方式献上，用来表达我们的社会性，因此它是一个群体的奉献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's offered sensibly to express our social nature, and therefore, it's an offering of a society.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.60,0:19:39.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.92,0:19:49.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这也是为什么我们有主日弥撒的义务，就是要我\N们作为教会、作为堂区一起献上这伟大的祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this is why there's a Sunday Mass obligation, so that we come together as, as a church, as a parish to offer the great sacrifice together.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:49.14,0:19:54.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}可惜的是，许多公教徒并没有真正明白这一点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And again, I think tragically, many of the Catholic people don't fully grasp that.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:54.16,0:20:07.32,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}即使我们堂区的人不多，我们依然是和整个教会一起献祭，这在所有圣餐祷文中都有表达。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And even though in our parish, maybe there aren't that many people, nevertheless we're offering the sacrifice with the whole church, and that's expressed in all the Eucharistic prayers.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:07.32,0:20:07.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:20:07.60,0:20:08.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's being...
Dialogue: 0,0:20:08.16,0:20:13.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们与教会合一，为教会的一切需要和意向献上这祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We offer it in union with the church for all the needs and intentions of the church.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:13.34,0:20:15.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:15.78,0:20:35.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}马丁·路德和其他人提出的另一个反对意见是：把弥撒理解为赎罪祭—\N—也就是为赦罪而献的祭——似乎意味着神是愤怒的，需要被安抚。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Another objection that's made, um, by Martin Luther and others is the idea that understanding the Mass as an expiatory sacrifice, that is a sacrifice offered, um, for the forgiveness of sins, um, that implies an angry God in need of appeasement.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.98,0:20:53.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}路德在《弥撒的滥用》中说：「献祭的人是想与神和好，但想与神和好的人，认为神\N是愤怒且无怜悯的，这样的人不期待从神得恩典和怜悯，只是害怕他的审判和定罪。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So Luther in his work, The Misuse of the Mass, says, "He who sacrifices wishes to reconcile God, but he who wishes to reconcile God considers him to be angry and unmerciful, and whoever does this does not expect grace or mercy from him, but fears his judgment and sentence.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.42,0:21:05.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}没有什么比教宗党人（公教徒）这种教导更违背圣事的益\N处了——他们认为神愤怒，需要借着这个圣事来安抚。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Nothing could be more directly opposed to the profital, profitable use of this sacrament than the teaching of the papists who believe that God is angry and needs to be appeased by this sacrament.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:05.52,0:21:14.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但如果神不是如此恩慈和怜悯，他绝不会赐下如此丰富的宝藏和珍贵的恩赐。」引文结束。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But if God were not so gracious and merciful, he would never have poured out so rich a treasure and given us such a precious gift." Unquote.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:14.12,0:21:14.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}All right.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:14.72,0:21:15.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那我们该如何回应呢？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}How should we respond to that?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:15.82,0:21:23.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}其实，路德在引文结尾已经给出了回应的方法。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, um, well, Luther really gives the, the way to respond at the end of that quote.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.14,0:21:34.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}正是神的恩慈和怜悯，才赐给我们不仅可以领受的东西，也有可以奉献回去的东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, "It is precisely God's graciousness and mercy that is shown in giving us not merely something to receive, but also something to give back.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:34.86,0:21:39.42,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}正如耶稣所说：「施比受更为有福。」对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}For it is more blessed," Jesus says, "to give than to receive." Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:39.42,0:21:40.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}徒20:35。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Acts 20:35.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:40.94,0:21:45.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们自己其实没有什么配得献给神的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Of ourselves, we don't have anything worthy to give him.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.68,0:21:46.50,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:46.50,0:21:55.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这正是耶稣赐给我们弥撒的原因，好让我们能把无限宝\N贵的礼物献给父神，并把自己的奉献也联合在其中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that's precisely why Jesus gave us the Mass, so that we could offer the Father, his father, an infinite gift and join our own to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:55.58,0:21:56.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:56.82,0:21:57.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so it's...
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.58,0:22:08.70,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们应该把弥撒的祭献性理解为神的美善，而不是\N神的愤怒——是神赐给我们可以奉献回去的东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We should understand the sacrificial dimension of Ma- of the Mass not as, um, the wrath of God, but precisely the goodness of God giving us something that we can give back.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:08.70,0:22:09.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:09.38,0:22:15.70,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这其实也是我们在人生中施行怜悯的榜样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this is, in fact, the model of how we should do mercy in, um, in human life.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:15.70,0:22:16.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:16.14,0:22:17.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们希望……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We want to...
Dialogue: 0,0:22:17.06,0:22:22.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当我们帮助别人时，也希望通过让他们能够回馈，从而恢复他们的尊严，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}When we aid someone, we want to restore their dignity by enabling them to give back, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:22.76,0:22:24.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}让他们能奉献自己独特的东西。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Something unique of their own.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:24.76,0:22:26.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.06,0:22:28.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}耶稣对我们也是这样。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that's what Jesus does with us.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:28.26,0:22:29.20,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:29.20,0:22:40.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，弥撒确实是赎罪祭，但这并不意味着神是愤\N怒的，或者说他没有因加略山的祭献而被安抚。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So the fact that the Mass is in fact a propitiatory sacrifice doesn't mean that God is angry, or mer- or most- or merciful or that he hasn't been appeased by Calvary.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:40.56,0:22:41.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}当然，他已经被安抚了。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Of course, he has.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:41.72,0:22:47.36,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们说过，加略山的善远远超过了全世界所有的罪恶。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We said that Calvary, um, m- outweighs in goodness the sins of the world put together.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:47.36,0:22:57.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但神的恩典和美善就在于，他让教会每天都能献上这祭献，并参与其中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But the very grace and goodness of God is to give to his church the chance to offer it day by day and to join in the offering.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.64,0:22:58.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:58.72,0:23:16.100,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这样，我们不仅仅是在两千年前的加略山，而是现在、比如我录音前刚参加弥撒\N时，也能参与这无限祭献的奉献，这祭献比历史上所有罪恶加起来更能取悦神。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that we, not just 2,000 years ago on Calvary, but for me, I was at Mass before recording this, um, I got to join in the offering of the infinite sacrifice that is more pleasing than all human sin from the beginning of history to the end is displeasing.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:16.100,0:23:19.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:19.78,0:23:27.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这正是神的恩慈——他把与他和好的机会当作恩典赐给我们，而不是负担。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is God's graciousness, um, reconciliation he gives to us as a grace, not a burden.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:27.74,0:23:29.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}好的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:29.72,0:23:30.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}还有一个反对意见。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Another objection.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:30.60,0:23:40.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是加尔文提出的，他认为弥撒的祭献似乎意味着基督在每一次弥撒中都被重新杀害。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is one made by Calvin, um, and that is that the sacrifice of the Mass seems to imply that Christ is killed again in every Mass.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:40.94,0:23:47.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}加尔文在他的《基督教要义》第四卷第十八章中提出了这个指控。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so Jes- uh, Calvin makes this, um, this charge in his Institutes in Book 4, Chapter 18.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:47.94,0:23:53.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他说：「所献的祭品必须被宰杀和焚烧。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He says, quote, "It is necessary that the victim which is offered be slain and immolated.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:53.96,0:23:59.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果基督在每一台弥撒中都被献上，那他就得在无数地方、每时每刻都被残忍地杀害。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If Christ is sacrificed at each Mass, he must be cruelly slain every moment in a thousand places.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.92,0:24:04.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这不是我的观点，而是使徒的——见来9章。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}This is not my argument but the apostles'." That's Hebrews 9.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:04.46,0:24:11.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}「他并不是多次把自己献上，否则从创世以来他就必须多次受苦。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, quote, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, for then he must have often suffered since the foundation of the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.40,0:24:18.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，耶稣只一次把自己交付于死，一次而永远。」对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So Jesus gave himself in death, over to death only once, once and for all." Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:18.52,0:24:21.70,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这确实没错，我们也不否认。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that is true indeed, and we do not deny that.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:21.70,0:24:27.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但「那一次的交付于死，在弥撒中奥秘地临现」……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, "That one giving over to death is mysteriously made present,"...
Dialogue: 0,0:24:27.72,0:24:28.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}就在弥撒中。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}in the Mass.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:28.40,0:24:32.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但我们并不说在弥撒中又把耶稣杀死一次。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But we don't say that in the Mass, we slay Jesus again.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:32.38,0:24:36.06,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这就是为什么特利腾大公会议这样定义……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That's why the Council of Trent, um, defined the...
Dialogue: 0,0:24:36.06,0:24:41.52,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}它说，弥撒和加略山的奉献方式是不同的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Said that the mode of offering in the Mass and on Calvary is different.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:41.52,0:24:44.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在加略山上，奉献的方式是流血的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}On Calvary, the mode of offering was bloody.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:44.38,0:24:51.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}在弥撒中，奉献的方式是奥秘的、圣事性的、无流血的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In the Mass, the mode of offering is mysterious, sacramental, and unbloody.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:51.02,0:25:04.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但在弥撒中，我们拥有同一位被奉献的祭品，也有同一位祭司——耶\N稣，我们永远的大祭司——他借着圣职祭司的手和口把自己奉献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But nevertheless, in the Mass, we have the same victim who is offered, and we have the same priest, Jesus, our eternal high priest, who offers himself through the hands and lips of his ministerial priests.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:04.64,0:25:13.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}没错，他并不是再死一次，我们也不能让他的死亡或祭献被重复。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And, yes, it is true, he doesn't die again, as if we could multiply his death any more than we multiply his sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.86,0:25:14.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:14.24,0:25:16.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}弥撒并不是制造一个新的祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The Mass doesn't make a new sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.86,0:25:22.46,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}而是同一个祭献，在我们的祭台上奥秘地临现。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's the same sacrifice, um, made mysteriously present on our altars.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:22.46,0:25:29.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}顺便说一句，我在慕道班（RCA）里也听到过这个反对意见。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this ob- objection, by the way, I've heard it made in RCA, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:29.16,0:25:35.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我在圣路易斯主教座堂教慕道班，有些受过良好教育的新教徒也会提出这个问题。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So I teach RCA, St. Louis at the cathedral, and, um, well-educated Protestants will sometimes make this, uh, objection.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:35.76,0:25:37.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.26,0:25:39.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，关键在于弥撒……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So the key point is that the Mass...
Dialogue: 0,0:25:39.44,0:25:47.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}公教的回应是，弥撒并不是另一个祭献、另一次死亡，而是同一个祭献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So the Catholic response is that the Mass is not a different sacrifice, another death, right, but one and the same sacrifice.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:47.74,0:25:48.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.10,0:25:54.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们看到，大约在公元400年左右，金口约翰圣人就已经提出了这个观点。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we saw that Saint John Chrysostom made this argument, um, back in the, um, around the year 400.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:54.08,0:25:56.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:56.10,0:25:59.12,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，虽然是同一个祭献，但还是有区别的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So it's the same sacrifice, but there is a difference.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:59.12,0:26:07.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}第一个区别是无流血的方式，第二个区别是我们\N可以参与奉献，把自己的生命与耶稣一起奉献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's an unbloody mode, and the second difference, we get to join in the offering and offer our lives with Jesus.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:07.74,0:26:09.24,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}还有一个反对意见。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Another objection.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:09.24,0:26:15.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有人认为，每天重复弥撒会贬低加略山的尊严。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It seems that repeating the Mass every day detracts from the dignity of Calvary.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:15.38,0:26:17.18,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.18,0:26:18.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这是路德宗常见的反对意见。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Lutheran kind of objection.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:18.60,0:26:24.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们可以这样回应：当我们重复一件事时，\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, and we should respond by saying, well, when we repeat something, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:24.82,0:26:30.68,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}比如我反复对妻子说我爱她，这种重复并不会贬低什么。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So if I tell my wife repeatedly that I love her, um, the repetition doesn't detract.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:30.68,0:26:35.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}没人会觉得这种重复会贬低我们结婚那天的誓言，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Nobody would think that that repetition detracts from what we did on our wedding day, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:35.64,0:26:36.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}就是交换誓言那一刻。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The exchange of vows.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:36.60,0:26:53.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}相反，这正是人的特性，因为人的生命是在时间中展开的，曾经发生\N过的事，我们需要不断地在生活中重现，让它成为我们生命的中心。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}On the contrary, it makes it human, because human life exists in time, and what, um, what happened one time we have to make present again and again in human life for it to be at the center of our lives that take place in time.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:53.00,0:26:53.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:53.30,0:27:02.08,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，我们把加略山的祭献作为每周、甚至每天的中心，正是对它的尊崇。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So we give honor to the sacrifice of Calvary by making it the center of every week, and if possible, even every day.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:02.08,0:27:11.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}还有一种认为贬低加略山的观点，常常是……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Now, another aspect of this, um, detracting from Calvary is the idea of, um, very often...
Dialogue: 0,0:27:11.00,0:27:22.40,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}抱歉，这里没法详细展开，但在理解赎罪时，马丁\N·路德和新教传统主要是从代罚的角度来看待的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Sorry, don't have enough time to go into this properly, but, um, in understanding atonement, um, Martin Luther and the, the Protestant tradition above all see it in terms of substitutionary punishment.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:22.40,0:27:26.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}耶稣代替我们受罚，好让我们得自由。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Jesus is punished in our place so that we go free.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:26.26,0:27:26.86,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:26.86,0:27:30.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他承担刑罚，我们这些有罪的人就被释放。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}He takes the hit so that we, the guilty party, are liberated.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.56,0:27:39.28,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果这样理解加略山，确实很难想象这种「耶稣受罚」的事件如何能不断地临现。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And if that's the way to understand Calvary, yes, it would be hard to understand how that could be made present again and again, Jesus taking the hit, as it were.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.28,0:27:42.62,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我认为这也是加尔文反对的根源，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And I think that's behind Calvin's objection, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.62,0:27:45.16,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}也就是我们在每台弥撒中又把耶稣杀死一次。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}That we're killing Jesus again in every Mass.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:45.16,0:27:49.26,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但这并不是正确的赎罪观。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But that's not the right way to take and to understand the atonement.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:49.26,0:28:02.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}赎罪不是代罚，而是耶稣为世界的罪作出补赎，\N他所献上的比所有罪恶带来的冒犯更能取悦神。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, it's not substitutionary punishment, but Jesus making satisfaction for the sins of the world by offering something more pleasing than all sin is displeasing.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:02.96,0:28:12.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}他这样做，是为了让我们也能参与补赎，尽我们的一份。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And he does this, he makes satis- vicarious satisfaction so that we can join in doing our part in making satisfaction.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:12.48,0:28:17.92,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}换句话说，这不是代替的逻辑，而是共融的逻辑。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}In other words, it's not the logic of substitution, but the logic of solidarity.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:17.92,0:28:18.56,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:18.56,0:28:22.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}用这种方式理解赎罪，我们就能明白为什么……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Understanding the atonement in that way, we can see why we...
Dialogue: 0,0:28:22.84,0:28:40.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}如果他的目的是让我们与他完美的补赎、赎罪祭相\N结合，最好的方式就是让我们在弥撒中参与奉献。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}If his purpose is to bring us into solidarity with his, um, perfect satisfaction, his, um, ex- expiatory sacrifice, the best way to do that is to enable us to join in the offering as, in fact, he does in the Mass.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:40.60,0:28:42.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:42.58,0:28:56.38,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以，圣餐让人类历史的中心事件——加略山的祭\N献——成为我们每周、每一天具体生活的中心。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So the Eucharist makes the s- the central event of human history, the sacrifice of Calvary, to be the center of our history, the history of our concrete week and, and life.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:56.38,0:29:00.30,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:00.30,0:29:02.84,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}它被带入我们生命和意识的中心。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}It's brought into the center of our lives and consciousness.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:02.84,0:29:06.64,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这也是为什么我们有主日弥撒义务，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And this is the reason why there's a Sunday Mass obligation, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:06.64,0:29:10.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}就是要让它成为我们生活的中心。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that we make it, um, the center of our lives.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:10.02,0:29:15.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们每年只要求领圣餐一次，对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}There's only a- an obligation to receive communion once a year, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:15.00,0:29:21.72,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}但教会要求我们每个主日和当守瞻礼日都要与耶稣一起献祭。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}But the church requires us to offer the sacrifice with Jesus, um, every Sunday and holy day of obligation.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:21.72,0:29:27.34,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}这样，这种不断的祭献……\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So that this constant sacrificial...
Dialogue: 0,0:29:27.34,0:29:42.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}更准确说，这种圣事性的临现不是贬低加略山，而是让信徒\N铭记加略山对世界生命的中心地位，是我们希望的根源。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Sorry, sacramental representation, um, serves not to detract from Calvary, but to impress upon the faithful the centrality of Calvary for the life of the world, the cause of our hope.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:42.14,0:29:44.22,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:44.22,0:29:54.10,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}约翰·保罗二世有句名言：「圣弥撒是我生命和每天生活的绝对中心。」对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}John Paul II expressed this by saying a, a famous, uh, quote, "Holy Mass is the absolute center of my life and of every day of my life." Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:54.10,0:29:58.14,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们也应该以此为目标，能和他一起这样说。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And that should be our aspiration, to be able to say that with him.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:58.14,0:30:01.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}最后一个反对意见，我们就结束。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}One final, uh, objection and we'll conclude.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:01.98,0:30:15.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}有些神学家承认弥撒有祭献性，但认为过分强调祭献\N是错误的，他们把祭献和筵席看作此消彼长的关系。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, some theologians might grant, all right, there is a sacrificial dimension, but, um, it's a mistake to highlight it too much, and they understand the sacrifice and the banquet aspects as inversely related.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:15.02,0:30:20.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们越强调其中一方面，另一面就会被削弱，甚至被贬低。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The more we highlight the one, the less we're going to emphasize the other, or it will detract from the other.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:20.44,0:30:27.44,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}所以有些神学家担心，过分强调祭献性会削弱筵席的层面。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And so some theologians are concerned that when we highlight the sacrificial dimension too much, we diminish the aspect of banquet.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:27.44,0:30:28.70,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}回应很简单。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The response is simple.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.70,0:30:29.88,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}两者是密不可分的。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The two go together.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:29.88,0:30:38.76,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们越强调祭献，就越能体会在圣餐中领受加略山祭品的恩赐。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The more we highlight the sacrifice, the more we understand the gift of receiving the victim of Calvary in holy communion.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:38.76,0:30:43.00,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}两者相辅相成，也会在我们生命中一同被彰显。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}The two go together and will be glorified in our lives together.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:43.00,0:30:52.58,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}正如我们可以把弥撒理解为上升与下降的互动，这也应该成为我们生活的模式。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Um, just as we can understand the Mass as this alternation of ascending, descending movements, and that should be the pattern of our lives.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.58,0:31:02.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}我们可以称之为圣餐生活——不断奉献、领受、再奉献自己给神和邻人。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}And we can speak of that as the Eucharistic life, a circle of offering and receiving and re-offering ourselves to God and neighbor.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:02.82,0:31:03.98,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}对吧？\N{\an2\fs10\i1}Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:03.98,0:31:05.02,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}那我们今天就到这里。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}So let's leave it here.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:05.02,0:31:16.96,Default,,0,0,0,,{\an2\b1}全能的神，我们感谢你，因着我们的主基督，使我们\N能参与弥撒祭献的奉献。因父、及子、及圣灵之名。\N{\an2\fs10\i1}We give you thanks, O Mighty God, for the gift of being able to participate in the offering of the sacrifice of the Mass through Christ, our Lord, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.