- start: 0.059
  end: 3.339
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What's the difference between the Lutherans and the Catholics on the Lord's Supper?
  zh: 路德宗与天主教徒在圣餐问题上有何区别？
- start: 3.339
  end: 4.899
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: You guys asked this question.
  zh: 你们提出了这个问题。
- start: 4.899
  end: 7.659
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: In fact, I got this question twice this last week.
  zh: 事实上，上周我就被问了两次。
- start: 7.659
  end: 9.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Sam says, "Hello, Pastor Wolfmueller.
  zh: 山姆说：「你好，沃尔夫穆勒牧师。
- start: 9.519
  end: 18.299
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Can you explain the difference between the Catholic communion versus the Lutheran communion?" And later, Tom writes, "Pastor Wolfmueller, my wife and I have recently come to Lutheranism.
  zh: 能否解释天主教圣餐与路德宗圣餐的区别？」后来汤姆写道：「沃尔夫穆勒牧师，我和妻子最近皈依了路德宗。
- start: 18.299
  end: 21.0
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We've been describing ourselves as Calvinistic Baptists.
  zh: 我们曾自认是加尔文主义的浸信会信徒。
- start: 21.0
  end: 22.819
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: She was raised Baptist, I was raised Catholic.
  zh: 她成长于浸信会家庭，我成长于天主教家庭。
- start: 22.819
  end: 25.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We're struggling with the Lutheran beliefs on baptism and the Lord's Supper.
  zh: 我们对路德宗关于洗礼和圣餐的教义感到困惑。
- start: 25.939
  end: 27.899
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We think it's more than what the Baptists teach.
  zh: 我们认为这超越了浸信会的教导。
- start: 27.899
  end: 31.499
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: With your Evangelical background, can you point us to some resources that would help?
  zh: 您有福音派背景，能否推荐些参考资料？」
- start: 31.499
  end: 33.48
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Thanks, Tom." You got it.
  zh: 谢谢，汤姆。」没问题。
- start: 33.48
  end: 38.659
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So, here's the topic, what's the difference between the Lutherans and the Baptists on the supper?
  zh: 那么问题来了：路德宗与浸信会对圣餐的理解有何不同？
- start: 38.659
  end: 54.359
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I think you guys are asking this question because, well, number one, for a lot of people, the Lutheran view of the Lord's Supper is difficult, uh, to understand.
  zh: 我想你们之所以问这个问题，首先是因为对许多人而言，路德宗的圣餐观难以理解。
- start: 54.359
  end: 67.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And I think especially, it looks like, from the Evangelical perspective, it looks like the Lutherans, uh, basically have the same doctrine as the Catholics or basically five different views of the Lord's Supper.
  zh: 尤其从福音派视角看，路德宗似乎与天主教教义相同，或者说圣餐观大致有五种流派。
- start: 67.939
  end: 73.92
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: There's the symbolic view, the Baptist view, which says that it's a memorial meal.
  zh: 其一是象征说，即浸信会主张的纪念性餐会。
- start: 73.92
  end: 82.199
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It's simply, we do this in remembrance, which means we have bread and we have wine, or bread and juice, and we get together and eat the bread and juice.
  zh: 就是「如此行，为的是记念我」——众人聚集分食饼与酒（或葡萄汁）。
- start: 82.199
  end: 93.04
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Then you have the Reformed idea, and that's the idea that, uh, that you have the real presence, that you have the spiritual presence of the body of Jesus, but that's it.
  zh: 其二是改革宗观点，主张基督身体的真实临在是属灵的临在，仅此而已。
- start: 93.04
  end: 94.52
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: No bread, no wine.
  zh: 既不在饼也不在酒。
- start: 94.52
  end: 101.079
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: You have the Lutheran view, which is the idea that the words "this is my body" are simply true, that we have the body and the blood.
  zh: 其三是路德宗观点，认为「这是我的身体」这句话真实无谬，饼酒即基督的身体与血。
- start: 101.079
  end: 104.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: You have the Roman Catholic view, that's the doctrine of transubstantiation.
  zh: 其四是罗马天主教观点，即变质说教义。
- start: 104.939
  end: 108.979
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And then you have the Orthodox view, which who knows what that view is.
  zh: 其五是东正教观点——天晓得他们怎么解释。
- start: 108.979
  end: 110.679
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It's, it's a mystery.
  zh: 反正很神秘。
- start: 110.679
  end: 114.599
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: They love the fact that the word mystery is a Greek word.
  zh: 他们特别喜欢「奥秘」这个词的希腊语渊源。
- start: 114.599
  end: 122.559
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And I think the idea is that from the perspective of the memorial meal, it's hard to tell the difference between the Lutherans and the Catholics.
  zh: 我认为关键在于：从纪念性餐会的角度看，很难区分路德宗与天主教的差异。
- start: 122.559
  end: 124.619
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So, we got to make that distinction.
  zh: 因此必须厘清界限。
- start: 124.619
  end: 136.779
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: All right, so I want to make this distinction for you guys between the Lutheran view of the Lord's Supper and between the Roman Catholic view.
  zh: 现在我要为你们辨析路德宗与罗马天主教的圣餐观差异。
- start: 136.779
  end: 139.019
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And for that, we're going to need to go to the books.
  zh: 为此我们需要查考典籍。
- start: 139.019
  end: 173.979
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: All right, I think we're going to do this in three parts.
  zh: 我打算分三部分阐述：
- start: 173.979
  end: 178.759
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: First, what is the thing, what does the church say that the Lord's Supper is?
  zh: 第一，本质问题——教会如何定义圣餐？
- start: 178.759
  end: 180.279
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Second, what is the act?
  zh: 第二，仪式问题；
- start: 180.279
  end: 185.399
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And third, what is the benefit of the supper?
  zh: 第三，圣餐的益处。
- start: 185.399
  end: 188.879
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And we're going to compare and contrast the Lutheran doctrine.
  zh: 我们将对比路德宗教义与其他观点。
- start: 188.879
  end: 190.259
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So first, what is the thing?
  zh: 首先看本质问题。
- start: 190.259
  end: 193.619
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The thing with the Catholic Church is transubstantiation.
  zh: 天主教会的核心教义是变质说。
- start: 193.619
  end: 197.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, transubstantiation is a bit of a thing to explain.
  zh: 变质说需要稍作解释。
- start: 197.519
  end: 201.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I want to first read to you from the Council of Trent, and I'm going to try something new.
  zh: 我先朗读特伦托大公会议文献，并尝试新方法——
- start: 201.939
  end: 202.859
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Do you see?
  zh: 看到了吗？
- start: 202.859
  end: 203.479
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Look at this.
  zh: 看这里。
- start: 203.479
  end: 216.259
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is, this is a, uh, this is me thinking, "How can I not have to sit there and type this thing in?" Answer, I can show you the page, and with this little button indicate that you should pause it.
  zh: 我在想：「怎么才能不用埋头打字？」答案就是展示文献页面，用这个按钮提示暂停阅读。
- start: 216.259
  end: 219.099
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, can I zoom in on this and make it focus?
  zh: 能放大聚焦吗？
- start: 219.099
  end: 222.839
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is the Council of Trent on s- transubstantiation.
  zh: 这是特伦托会议关于变质说的决议。
- start: 222.839
  end: 225.559
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: If you want to read the words yourself, you got...
  zh: 若想自行阅读，请...
- start: 225.559
  end: 227.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is a pause shot right there.
  zh: 现在画面暂停。
- start: 227.519
  end: 228.539
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Here's what it says.
  zh: 文献写道：
- start: 228.539
  end: 261.419
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '"And because that Christ, our Redeemer, declared that which he offered unto the species of bread to be truly his own body, therefore, it has ever been a firm belief of the Church of God, and this holy synod doth now declare it anew, that by the consecration of the bread and of the wine, a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ, our Lord, and the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood, which conversion is, by the Holy Catholic Church, sys- uh, suitably and properly called transubstantiation." Now, what is that?'
  zh: 「因我们的救主基督明言他所献上的饼形确是其真身体，故神的教会历来坚信——本次神圣会议重新宣告——藉着饼酒的祝圣，饼的整个实体转化为我主基督身体的实体，酒的整个实体转化为其血的实体，此转化被圣而公教会合宜地称为变质说。」这什么意思？
- start: 261.419
  end: 263.339
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Let me show you on the board.
  zh: 我用白板演示。
- start: 263.339
  end: 265.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Transubstantiation.
  zh: 变质说（Transubstantiation）。
- start: 265.519
  end: 274.239
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Trans means to change, and substance, uh, it means substance or essence.
  zh: 「Trans」意为转变，「substance」指实体或本质。
- start: 274.239
  end: 277.419
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And this comes from an old Aristotelian distinction.
  zh: 这源于亚里士多德的古老区分。
- start: 277.419
  end: 282.099
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Aristotle taught us that a thing, like this fox, for example.
  zh: 亚里士多德以狐狸为例：
- start: 282.099
  end: 286.619
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: For some reason, Pastor Flammy does not like my example of a fox.
  zh: 不知为何，弗拉米牧师不喜欢我的狐狸例子。
- start: 286.619
  end: 303.439
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: But this fox has a substance or an essence of foxiness, and it also has accidents as well.
  zh: 但狐狸有「狐性」实体，也有偶性。
- start: 303.439
  end: 308.339
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, how would you describe a fox?
  zh: 如何描述狐狸？
- start: 308.339
  end: 322.999
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: You would say, "Well, a fox has a pointy nose, it bounces all over the place, uh, it has a big bushy tail, and it's red." Well, let's say, in a very friendly manner, we put a clown nose on this fox.
  zh: 你会说：「尖鼻子、活蹦乱跳、蓬松红尾巴。」假设我们给狐狸戴上小丑鼻，
- start: 322.999
  end: 330.099
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We give him a glass of wine to drink so that he's not bouncing around.
  zh: 灌它葡萄酒让它安静，
- start: 330.099
  end: 336.999
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We shave his tail so that he has this kind of pokey little tail, like that.
  zh: 剃光尾巴只剩小尖尾，
- start: 336.999
  end: 339.579
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And, and let's color him purple.
  zh: 再把它染成紫色。
- start: 339.579
  end: 347.359
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, what we've done is we've changed the accidents of the fox, but we...
  zh: 我们改变了狐狸的偶性，但...
- start: 347.359
  end: 348.979
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Oh, focus.
  zh: 注意焦点。
- start: 348.979
  end: 350.099
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Focus.
  zh: 看这里。
- start: 350.099
  end: 358.239
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We've changed the accidents of the f- We've changed the accidents of the fox, but we haven't changed the substance.
  zh: 我们改变了狐狸的偶性，但未改变其实体。
- start: 358.239
  end: 360.059
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It remains a fox.
  zh: 它仍是狐狸。
- start: 360.059
  end: 361.633
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The fox-...
  zh: 狐狸本质上...
- start: 361.633
  end: 363.173
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: is a fox, essentially.
  zh: 始终是狐狸。
- start: 363.173
  end: 383.014
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Well, what the Roman Catholics say, they take this Aristotelian distinction and they say, "In the supper, what happens is you have a change of the substance." So that, say you have bread and you have wine, and the bread re- keeps the accidents of bread, and the wine keeps the accidents of wine.
  zh: 罗马天主教采纳亚里士多德区分，声称：「圣餐中发生的是实体转变。」即饼酒保留其偶性，
- start: 383.014
  end: 391.233
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: But the essence itself, the substance is changed to the body of Christ, and to the blood of Christ.
  zh: 但本质实体转变为基督的身体与血。
- start: 391.233
  end: 396.253
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So that's how the Catholic Church gets the doctrine of transsubstantiation.
  zh: 这就是天主教会变质说教义的由来。
- start: 396.253
  end: 398.573
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Well, is that what the Bible teaches, transsubstantiation?
  zh: 但圣经教导变质说吗？
- start: 398.573
  end: 400.253
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The answer is, we don't need...
  zh: 答案是：我们不需要...
- start: 400.253
  end: 404.854
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: There's a good distinction, this Aristotelian distinction between the accidents and the essence of a thing.
  zh: 亚里士多德对偶性与实体的区分固然精妙，
- start: 404.854
  end: 411.934
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: But we should not need, and this is really the Lutheran response, we don't need Aristotle to understand Jesus.
  zh: 但路德宗的回应是：理解耶稣无需借助亚里士多德，
- start: 411.934
  end: 414.293
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We can just trust what the scriptures say.
  zh: 只需信靠圣经所言。
- start: 414.293
  end: 419.014
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, a lot of times people say that the Lutherans teach consubstantiation.
  zh: 常有人说路德宗教导合质说，
- start: 419.014
  end: 422.233
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, but we d- we don't, we...
  zh: 但我们并非...
- start: 422.233
  end: 427.213
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The whole point of the Lutheran response to this business is that we just need the Bible.
  zh: 路德宗对此的核心立场是：唯独圣经足矣。
- start: 427.213
  end: 430.313
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We don't need a substantiation for anything.
  zh: 我们不需要任何实体化理论。
- start: 430.313
  end: 432.354
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We, we don't teach consubstantiation.
  zh: 我们不教导合质说。
- start: 432.354
  end: 434.213
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We don't teach any substantiation.
  zh: 我们不传授任何实体论。
- start: 434.213
  end: 439.693
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We just simply stick with the words of Jesus, where Jesus says, "Is." Let me show it to you.
  zh: 我们只坚持耶稣说的「是」——请看这里。
- start: 439.693
  end: 447.493
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is the small called articles, uh, where Luther talks about it.
  zh: 这是路德在《小信条》中的论述。
- start: 447.493
  end: 452.473
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Ooh, let me, let me make another pause note here.
  zh: 我再做个暂停标记。
- start: 452.473
  end: 455.853
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Ooh, I've got a idea.
  zh: 想到个主意。
- start: 455.853
  end: 466.653
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Who, whoever, uh, whoever types all of these pause quotes, uh, into the quotes, the first person to put them into the comments, I'm going to send a copy, a free copy of the large catechism.
  zh: 谁最先在评论区完整输入这些暂停引文，我就送他一本《大教理问答》。
- start: 466.653
  end: 471.234
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: How about that for a, for a awesome way to not do any work?
  zh: 这偷懒方法不错吧？
- start: 471.234
  end: 473.913
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Here, here's what, here's what Luther says.
  zh: 现在看路德怎么说。
- start: 473.913
  end: 476.413
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Oh, pause.
  zh: 暂停。
- start: 476.413
  end: 477.813
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Can you focus camera?
  zh: 镜头能对焦吗？
- start: 477.813
  end: 479.113
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What is your deal today?
  zh: 今天怎么回事？
- start: 479.113
  end: 482.753
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: There's what Luther says about transsubstantiation.
  zh: 路德论变质说：
- start: 482.753
  end: 496.293
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It says this, "As regards transsubstantiation, we care nothing about the sophistical subtlety by which they teach that bread and wine leave or lose their own natural substance, and that there remains only the appearance and color of bread, and not true bread.
  zh: 「关于变质说，我们毫不关心他们用诡辩技巧教导的饼酒丧失本质、仅存外形的理论。
- start: 496.293
  end: 516.273
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: For it is in the perfect, it is in perfect agreement with the Holy Scriptures that there is and remains bread, as Paul himself calls it, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 'The bread which we break,' and 1 Corinthians 11:28, 'Let him so eat that bread.'" So there is your pause quote from Dr. Luther.
  zh: 因圣经明确教导饼的真实存在——如保罗在哥林多前书十章16节称『我们所擘开的饼』，十一章28节说『人应当吃这饼』。」这是路德博士的暂停引文。
- start: 516.273
  end: 518.113
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I got to come up with a cool sound effect.
  zh: 我得配个酷炫音效。
- start: 518.113
  end: 521.113
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So what do Lutherans say that the thing is?
  zh: 那么路德宗如何定义圣餐本质？
- start: 521.113
  end: 531.633
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Well, we simply say that it is the body, the bread is the body, and the wine is the blood of Jesus, and we don't get any more complicated than that.
  zh: 我们直截了当说：饼是身体，酒是血——无需复杂解释。
- start: 531.633
  end: 534.133
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Second, what is the thing itself?
  zh: 第二，仪式本身是什么？
- start: 534.133
  end: 535.233
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What is the work?
  zh: 其运作机制？
- start: 535.233
  end: 537.053
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What is the act?
  zh: 具体行为？
- start: 537.053
  end: 538.733
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Here's the Council of Trent.
  zh: 看特伦托会议决议。
- start: 538.733
  end: 542.233
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Oh, this is getting fancy now.
  zh: 现在进入精彩部分。
- start: 542.233
  end: 552.473
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Here's another pause quote for you, the Council of Trent, which says, uh, "The divine sacrifice is celebrated in the mass.
  zh: 暂停引文：「弥撒中举行神的祭礼。
- start: 552.473
  end: 560.953
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: That same Christ is contained and emulated in an unbloody manner, who once offered himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross.
  zh: 同一位基督以非流血方式临现——他曾流血献祭于十字架祭坛。
- start: 560.953
  end: 570.693
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The Holy Synod teaches that this sacrifice is truly propitiatory." It actually says that.
  zh: 神圣会议宣告此祭礼确能赎罪。」白纸黑字写着。
- start: 570.693
  end: 590.873
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Look, "This sacrifice is truly propitiatory," that means it takes away sins, "and that by means thereof, is affected that we obtain mercy and find grace and seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and penitent with a sincere heart, and upright faith, with fear and reverence.
  zh: 注意「真正赎罪」即除罪，「人若存诚心、正信、痛悔、敬畏亲近神，藉此祭礼可得怜悯、恩典与及时帮助。
- start: 590.873
  end: 599.613
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: For the Lord, appeased by the oblation thereof, and granting the grace and gift of penance, forgives even heinous crimes and sins.
  zh: 因主悦纳此奉献，赐下悔改恩典，赦免重罪。
- start: 599.613
  end: 622.553
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: For the victim," Jesus, it's talking about, "is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of the priests who then offered himself on the cross, the manner alone of the offering being different." So that the Roman Catholic Church believes that the, uh, sacrifice of the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice.
  zh: 祭品（指耶稣）同一无二，昔日在十字架献己，今日藉祭司职分献上——唯献祭方式不同。」罗马天主教会认为弥撒祭礼具有赎罪功效。
- start: 622.553
  end: 627.893
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Here, I'll give you another pause quote, ha, from the condemnations of the Council of Trent.
  zh: 再看特伦托会议咒诅条款的暂停引文。
- start: 627.893
  end: 630.533
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Pause this one, and read it.
  zh: 暂停阅读。
- start: 630.533
  end: 631.993
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Ooh.
  zh: 注意。
- start: 631.993
  end: 633.913
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Boom.
  zh: 重点来了。
- start: 633.913
  end: 644.453
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It says, "If anyone says that the bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but is not a propitiatory..." Focus.
  zh: 「若有人说这仅是纪念十架完成的祭礼，而非赎罪...」聚焦。
- start: 644.453
  end: 644.853
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '"...'
  zh: 「...
- start: 644.853
  end: 664.333
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: but is not a propitiatory sacrifice or that it profits only him who receives, and that it ought not to be offered for the living and for the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities, let him be anathema, cursed to hell." So that the sacrifice of the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice.
  zh: "...祭礼，或谓仅领受者得益，不应为生者亡者的罪、苦痛、补赎及其他需要献上，这人当受咒诅。」可见弥撒祭礼被认定为赎罪祭。"
- start: 664.333
  end: 666.193
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, what do the Lutherans teach about this?
  zh: 路德宗对此的教导呢？
- start: 666.193
  end: 672.513
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We'll go to the small catechism, and look at this.
  zh: 查考《小教理问答》：
- start: 672.513
  end: 677.413
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '"It is the true body and blood." What is it, first?'
  zh: 「这是真实的身体与血。」首先——
- start: 677.413
  end: 687.493
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '"It is the tr-" "It is the true body..." So man, don''t worry, I''ll get a new camera sometime soon.'
  zh: 「这是真...」「这是真实身体...」别急，我很快换新镜头。
- start: 687.493
  end: 697.393
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '"It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine for us Christians to eat and drink instituted by Christ Himself." And then, what is the benefit?'
  zh: 「这是我主耶稣基督设立的真实身体与血，在饼酒形下赐基督徒领受。」其益处呢？
- start: 697.393
  end: 701.053
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '"It is shown in the words given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.'
  zh: 「『为你们舍的，为你们流的，使罪得赦』——
- start: 701.053
  end: 706.893
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Namely that in the sacrament, forgiveness of sins, life and salvation are given through these words.
  zh: 即在此圣事中，藉此话语赐下罪赦、生命与救恩。
- start: 706.893
  end: 716.653
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation." So we say it is the body and blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.
  zh: 罪既得赦，生命救恩随之而来。」故我们宣称：基督身体与血为赦罪而赐。
- start: 716.653
  end: 725.479
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: That's what Jesus says, "Given and shed for you, for the forgiveness of sins." And this gets us already into the third thing....
  zh: 正如耶稣所言：「为你们舍的...为赦罪。」这就引向第三点...
- start: 725.479
  end: 726.199
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: the benefit.
  zh: 益处问题。
- start: 726.199
  end: 731.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We've got the benefits covered by the Lutherans, so we just have to see what the Catholic Church says are the benefits.
  zh: 路德宗已阐明益处，再看天主教会观点。
- start: 731.939
  end: 737.219
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And looking in the catechism of the Catholic Church, they list seven benefits.
  zh: 《天主教教理》列出七项益处。
- start: 737.219
  end: 740.839
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Where'd my little pause go?
  zh: 我的暂停标记呢？
- start: 740.839
  end: 743.92
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Let's just take a look at the first one.
  zh: 先看第一项：
- start: 743.92
  end: 752.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '"Holy Communion augments our union with Christ.'
  zh: 「圣餐增进与基督的联合。
- start: 752.939
  end: 758.079
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus.
  zh: 领圣餐的首要效果是与基督耶稣亲密结合。
- start: 758.079
  end: 766.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Indeed, the Lord said, 'He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.' Life in Christ has its foundation in the Eucharistic banquet.
  zh: 主说：『吃我肉喝我血的人常在我里面，我也在他里面。』基督里的生命根基在于圣餐筵席。
- start: 766.939
  end: 774.14
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: '''As the living Father sent me, I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me will live because of me.''" All John 6.'
  zh: 『永活的父怎样差我，我也因父活着；吃我的人也要因我活着。』均引自约翰福音六章。
- start: 774.14
  end: 776.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The second benefit is strength.
  zh: 第二项是加添力量。
- start: 776.519
  end: 779.559
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The third benefit is separation from sin.
  zh: 第三项是脱离罪恶。
- start: 779.559
  end: 781.479
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The fourth benefit is charity.
  zh: 第四项是激发爱心。
- start: 781.479
  end: 784.099
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The fifth f- benefit is also charity.
  zh: 第五项还是爱心。
- start: 784.099
  end: 787.279
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The sixth benefit is unity with the mystical body of Christ.
  zh: 第六项是与基督奥秘身体联合。
- start: 787.279
  end: 790.659
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The seventh benefit is it commits us to the poor.
  zh: 第七项是委身济贫。
- start: 790.659
  end: 795.879
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And the eighth, oh, there's eight, the eighth benefit is that it is the unity feast of all Christians.
  zh: 第八项（哦共八项）是众基督徒的合一圣筵。
- start: 795.879
  end: 803.839
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, in regards to this, I want to read you one other thing which is really interesting that I found right over here.
  zh: 关于这点，我发现个有趣记载。
- start: 803.839
  end: 807.219
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is the Council of Trent.
  zh: 特伦托会议文献。
- start: 807.219
  end: 809.019
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is another pause quote.
  zh: 暂停引文。
- start: 809.019
  end: 815.679
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is, uh, hmm, now I don't know where this is, canon, uh, five, and look what it says here.
  zh: 第五教规写道——
- start: 815.679
  end: 818.239
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Right there.
  zh: 在此：
- start: 818.239
  end: 840.279
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It says, "If anyone sayeth either that the principal fruit of the most Holy Eucharist is the remission of sins, or that other effects do not result therefrom, let him be anathema." In other words, the Council of Trent says that if you say that the chief benefit of the Lord's Supper is the forgiveness of sins, you are damned to hell.
  zh: 「若有人说至圣圣餐的首要效果是罪得赦免，或否认其他效果，这人当受咒诅。」换言之，特伦托会议宣告：凡主张圣餐首要益处是赦罪者，必下地狱。
- start: 840.279
  end: 846.579
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: That's what it says.
  zh: 明文如此。
- start: 846.579
  end: 848.739
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Let's summarize.
  zh: 总结一下。
- start: 848.739
  end: 851.359
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The Catholic Church takes the word...
  zh: 天主教会取用神的话语...
- start: 851.359
  end: 853.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Oh, let's move this up here like this.
  zh: 调整下位置。
- start: 853.519
  end: 855.019
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Yes.
  zh: 好了。
- start: 855.019
  end: 861.959
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The Catholic Church takes the word of God and adds philosophy and gets transubstantiation.
  zh: 天主教会将神的话语与哲学结合，得出变质说。
- start: 861.959
  end: 865.679
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: They take the word of God and they add their doctrine of the priesthood.
  zh: 他们取用神的话语，又添加祭司职分教义。
- start: 865.679
  end: 875.039
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Oh, I didn't even show you guys about the how, if anyone says that the words, "This is my body," don't institute a new priesthood, they're anathema, and you get the sacrifice of the mass.
  zh: 我还没说明：若有人说「这是我的身体」这话不设立新祭司职分，这人当受咒诅——由此衍生出弥撒祭礼。
- start: 875.039
  end: 883.239
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And they take the word and they mix it up with their own doctrine of salvation and they get the main benefit is strength for love.
  zh: 他们取用圣经话语，混入自己的救恩论，最终得出「主要益处是增强爱心」。
- start: 883.239
  end: 887.839
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So that this is the system, like this.
  zh: 整个体系就是这样运作的。
- start: 887.839
  end: 898.799
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, I would suggest that the Lutherans say, "Look, we got to, we want to have the doctor of justification, we want to have the understanding of the office and ministry, we want to take out philosophy," and what you get is the word.
  zh: 而路德宗主张：「我们需要称义教义，需要明白职分与事工，必须剔除哲学」——最终回归圣经话语。
- start: 898.799
  end: 901.439
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What is the supper?
  zh: 圣餐是什么？
- start: 901.439
  end: 906.059
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It, it's what Jesus said, "This is my body." Well, how does it happen?
  zh: 就是耶稣说的「这是我的身体」。如何成就？
- start: 906.059
  end: 909.699
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Well, because the word says, "This is my body." And what's the benefit?
  zh: 因圣经明言「这是我的身体」。其益处？
- start: 909.699
  end: 915.079
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The forgiveness of sins, given and shed for you for the remission of sins.
  zh: 罪得赦免——「为你们舍的，为赦罪而流」。
- start: 915.079
  end: 923.859
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Why does this matter?
  zh: 为何这很重要？
- start: 923.859
  end: 928.299
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And what does it matter if we say transubstantiation or consubstantiation?
  zh: 变质说或合质说有何区别？
- start: 928.299
  end: 931.839
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What does it matter if we say it's union with Christ or the forgiveness of sins?
  zh: 与基督联合和罪得赦免孰重孰轻？
- start: 931.839
  end: 939.639
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What, why does it matter if we say that it's done by the priest to have an indelible character, or that the power is of the word?
  zh: 祭司不可磨灭的印记与话语权能哪个关键？
- start: 939.639
  end: 942.559
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Well, what matters is what Jesus wants to give to us.
  zh: 关键在于耶稣要赐予我们什么。
- start: 942.559
  end: 956.559
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I mean, if Jesus didn't say anything about it, we could make up our own stuff all the time, but Jesus is the one who said, "Do this in remembrance of me." So we want to do what he says in remembrance of him.
  zh: 若耶稣未明言，我们大可自行发挥；但他说的是「如此行，为的是记念我」——故我们当照他的吩咐记念他。
- start: 956.559
  end: 967.259
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Jesus knows best what we need, and he knows that in this life of sin, what we need is his body and his blood for the forgiveness of our sins.
  zh: 耶稣最知我们所需——在这罪恶生命中，我们需要他的身体与血来赦罪。
- start: 967.259
  end: 975.199
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So we, uh, rejoice in the simplicity and the clarity of what Jesus says.
  zh: 因此我们欢然领受耶稣简明清晰的话语。
- start: 975.199
  end: 979.959
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So there it is, that's the difference between the Lutheran and the Catholic view of the Lord's Supper.
  zh: 以上就是路德宗与天主教圣餐观的区别。
- start: 979.959
  end: 981.439
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The conclusion?
  zh: 结论？
- start: 981.439
  end: 984.319
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We should all be Lutheran.
  zh: 我们都该归信路德宗。
- start: 984.319
  end: 998.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Thanks, by the way, for the questions.
  zh: 感谢提问。
- start: 998.939
  end: 1001.739
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: You guys are great and, um, and keep 'em coming.
  zh: 你们很棒，请继续提问。
- start: 1001.739
  end: 1007.679
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This is a new, um, I, I, I'm excited about it now, this theology blog sort of thing.
  zh: 这个新开设的神学博客让我很兴奋。
- start: 1007.679
  end: 1012.119
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, hopefully it tells the doctrine and teaches it in an engaging way.
  zh: 希望能以生动方式传授教义。
- start: 1012.119
  end: 1013.339
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: You can see more of it here.
  zh: 更多内容在此。
- start: 1013.339
  end: 1015.579
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Here's some videos and subscribe to the channel.
  zh: 这里有视频，欢迎订阅频道。
- start: 1015.579
  end: 1021.399
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We'll try to see how often we can make these videos and answer the questions, so if you've got questions, um, put them below.
  zh: 我们会尽量定期制作视频答疑，有问题请留言。
- start: 1021.399
  end: 1029.439
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And also, really, the first person to, to type all those comments, those pause quotes, uh, into the thing, I'll send a copy of the large catechism to you.
  zh: 再次提醒：首位完整输入暂停引文者将获赠《大教理问答》。
- start: 1029.439
  end: 1031.319
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So, uh, so thanks for your help there.
  zh: 感谢支持。
- start: 1031.319
  end: 1032.319
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: See you soon.
  zh: 再见。
