- start: 1.24
  end: 23.399
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So the first question I have today is, what is the difference between the Lutheran and Roman Catholic perspective on the sacrifice of, of the Eucharist or the sacrifice of the mass because it does appear that there is some sacrificial language within Lutheranism in certain places, uh, but clearly there are many differences as well with the Roman Catholic tradition on the understanding of what exactly that means.
  zh: 我今天的第一个问题是，路德宗和罗马公教会在圣餐的祭献或弥撒祭献上的看法有什么不同？因为在某些情况下，路德宗的确也有一些祭献的用语，但很明显，在对这一概念的理解上，路德宗和罗马公教会之间还是有许多差异的。
- start: 23.399
  end: 34.1
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, so this is a somewhat complicated question, um, because language of, of sacrifice in relation to holy communion is, is language that's really existed from the very beginning of the church.
  zh: 这是一个比较复杂的问题，因为关于圣餐与祭献相关的用语，其实从教会一开始就已经存在了。
- start: 34.1
  end: 37.159
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, we do find that kind of language in Iranaus.
  zh: 我们在爱任纽的著作里也能看到类似的用语。
- start: 37.159
  end: 41.999
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We find it, um, pretty much all over the place within the church fathers.
  zh: 在众多教父的著作中，这种说法也随处可见。
- start: 41.999
  end: 50.059
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So, there, there's always been some understanding that there is a relationship between the celebration of, of holy communion and sacrifice.
  zh: 所以，人们一直都认为，圣餐的举行和祭献之间是有某种联系的。
- start: 50.059
  end: 57.619
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And some of that is just the simple fact that, um, in communion, we celebrate and receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice.
  zh: 其中一部分原因很简单，就是在圣餐中，我们纪念并领受基督祭献所带来的益处。
- start: 57.619
  end: 66.619
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So, so there's very clearly a, a tie between sacrifice and communion, um, e- even from a memorialist perspective, in that we're remembering a sacrifice.
  zh: 所以，祭献和圣餐之间确实有紧密的联系。即使从纪念论的角度来看，我们也是在纪念一次祭献。
- start: 66.619
  end: 83.5
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So I, I think it's, it's pretty much inevitable that we're gonna have a tie between communion and sacrifice, um, but the question of like, of what does that mean, a- and what exactly is that tie is one that's gonna be differentiated between people of various Christian traditions.
  zh: 所以我认为，圣餐和祭献之间有联系几乎是不可避免的，但关键的问题在于，这种联系到底意味着什么，不同的基督教传统对此会有不同的解释。
- start: 83.5
  end: 99.919
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And, you know, there are a lot of, um, debates and, and there, there are a lot of publications related to what the church fathers meant by sacrifice and what they understood by sacrifice, um, so I'm not going to delve into the discussions of the church fathers on that.
  zh: 关于教父们所说的祭献到底是什么意思，学界有很多争论和著作，所以我这里不会深入讨论教父们在这方面的看法。
- start: 99.919
  end: 108.639
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, I, I think it's a very complicated question and I think that there really are a number of different ways that the fathers understood sacrifice.
  zh: 我认为这是一个非常复杂的问题，而且教父们对祭献的理解其实有很多不同的方式。
- start: 108.639
  end: 111.859
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I, I definitely don't think that you can find...
  zh: 我认为你肯定找不到……
- start: 111.859
  end: 123.639
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I, I mean, I don't, I definitely don't think there is, you know, some kind of exact identification between the way that the fathers viewed sacrifice and the Roman Catholic church today, but there's, but there certainly are intimations of that as well.
  zh: 我的意思是，我肯定不认为教父们对祭献的看法和今天罗马公教会的观点完全一致，但其中确实也有一些相似之处。
- start: 123.639
  end: 125.479
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So I wouldn't say that it's not there either.
  zh: 所以我也不会说这种联系完全不存在。
- start: 125.479
  end: 131.919
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, and, and you have to get into different fathers and what different fathers say about that.
  zh: 而且你还得具体去看不同教父各自是怎么说的。
- start: 131.919
  end: 144.459
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, and I'm not necessarily prepared to do that at the moment, but, uh, what, what I can do is talk about how sacrifice is understood within the Lutheran tradition and how it's understood within the Roman Catholic tradition.
  zh: 我现在并没有准备详细讨论每位教父的看法，但我可以谈谈路德宗和罗马公教会各自是如何理解祭献的。
- start: 144.459
  end: 149.599
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, so I, I actually published an article on this, um, a while ago.
  zh: 其实我之前写过一篇关于这个主题的文章。
- start: 149.599
  end: 150.579
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It's available online.
  zh: 那篇文章可以在网上找到。
- start: 150.579
  end: 151.979
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: If you go to my website you can get it.
  zh: 你可以上我的网站去看。
- start: 151.979
  end: 153.579
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: JordanBCooper.com.
  zh: JordanBCooper.com。
- start: 153.579
  end: 162.359
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, there should be a link to an article I wrote that's on the subject of, of the Eucharist and sacrifice and the understanding of Eucharistic sacrifice within early Lutheranism.
  zh: 网站上应该有一篇我写的关于圣餐与祭献，以及早期路德宗对圣餐祭献理解的文章链接。
- start: 162.359
  end: 172.279
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: In, in that article, I basically trace language of sacrifice, um, through just Luther and, and Melanchthon and some of their early, some of their writings on this particular discussion.
  zh: 在那篇文章里，我主要梳理了路德和墨兰顿在这方面的一些早期著作中关于祭献的用语。
- start: 172.279
  end: 181.939
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So let's kind of lay out, what is the Roman Catholic view of sacrifice and then talk about the Lutheran perspective and what is going on there that differentiates the two.
  zh: 那我们先来梳理一下罗马公教会对祭献的看法，然后再谈路德宗的观点，以及两者之间的不同之处。
- start: 181.939
  end: 198.799
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, in the Roman Catholic tradition, uh, the, the, the Eucharist is understood as, as being an unbloody sacrifice, uh, which means that in the service, the priest offers Christ to the Father on the altar.
  zh: 在罗马公教会的传统里，圣餐被理解为无血的祭献，也就是说，在弥撒中，祭司在祭坛上把基督献给天父。
- start: 198.799
  end: 201.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Christ sacrifice is offered to the Father.
  zh: 基督的祭献是献给天父的。
- start: 201.519
  end: 205.479
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So, so the direction of the action is the priest to God.
  zh: 所以，这个行动的方向是祭司向神献上祭物。
- start: 205.479
  end: 209.419
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The priest offering on behalf of the people, Christ to God the Father.
  zh: 祭司代表众人，把基督献给天父。
- start: 209.419
  end: 223.619
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, a- and this would be connected to the way that sacrifices function in the old covenant or in the Old Testament, was that a sacrifice was offered from the priest to God on behalf of, of the people.
  zh: 这和旧约时代的祭献方式有关，当时祭司也是代表百姓把祭物献给神。
- start: 223.619
  end: 228.199
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so in their understanding, this is what happens with Christ sacrifice.
  zh: 所以在他们看来，基督的祭献也是这样实现的。
- start: 228.199
  end: 237.219
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, the way that that's teased out is that this is not sp- because Hebrews, the book of Hebrews speaks certainly about a, a once for all sacrifice.
  zh: 不过，这里需要澄清的是，《希伯来书》明确讲到基督的祭献是一次成全的。
- start: 237.219
  end: 247.999
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, a- and in the book of Hebrews, the author very clearly demonstrates that the, the very differentiation between the old covenant sacrifices and Christ sacrifices is the amount of times that they're performed.
  zh: 在《希伯来书》里，作者清楚地指出，旧约的祭献和基督的祭献的区别就在于，旧约的祭献需要不断重复，而基督的祭献只献了一次。
- start: 247.999
  end: 254.779
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so the imperfection of the old covenant sacrifices are very clear in that they have to be repeated.
  zh: 旧约的祭献之所以不完全，就是因为它们必须不断重复。
- start: 254.779
  end: 268.519
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And Christ sacrifice is unique in that it is something that was offered once for all, offered to the Father, and there does not need to be this kind of repetitive sacrifice like there was in, in the old covenant.
  zh: 而基督的祭献是独特的，因为祂只一次献上自己给天父，不需要像旧约那样反复献祭。
- start: 268.519
  end: 278.679
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now I, when I look at the book of Hebrews and that argument, I don't think the argument really makes very much sense from a Roman Catholic perspective.
  zh: 但我个人在读《希伯来书》时，觉得这个论证从罗马公教会的角度来看其实说不太通。
- start: 278.679
  end: 290.119
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I think if the author of Hebrews had understood that the central act of Christian worship was a, an unbloody but propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, um, he couldn't really make the argument in the way that he does.
  zh: 我认为，如果《希伯来书》的作者认为基督徒敬拜的核心是一个无血但赎罪的基督祭献，他就不可能像现在这样来论证。
- start: 290.119
  end: 292.039
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: A- and it's not even addressed.
  zh: 而且这个问题在书里根本没有被提到。
- start: 292.039
  end: 319.799
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And, and if that's certainly, if, if that was at the very center of the understanding of the Christian life, I can't see how that question, when you're ta- specifically having a discussion about daily offerings and sacrifices, a- and your contrast is between that and the once for all sacrifice of Christ, if it's the early Christian understanding that there also are daily sacrifices in the mass that is understood as a propitiatory sacrifice, I don't see how that couldn't come up in discussion.
  zh: 如果这真的是基督徒生活的核心，那么在讨论每日献祭和基督一次献上的祭献时，如果早期基督徒真的认为弥撒中也有每日的赎罪祭献，这个问题怎么可能不会被提出来呢？
- start: 319.799
  end: 328.199
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, so, uh, I have a hard time reconciling the book of Hebrews with the Roman Catholic understanding of what's going on in the mass.
  zh: 所以，我很难把《希伯来书》和罗马公教会对弥撒的理解调和起来。
- start: 328.199
  end: 340.599
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I, I think it's, it's the clearest, uh, a- and best explanation of the evidence to say that the author didn't believe that at least that kind of sacrifice, or it would have come up in that conversation somehow and it just doesn't really fit.
  zh: 我认为，最清楚、最合理的解释就是，《希伯来书》的作者并不相信至少那种形式的祭献，否则在讨论中肯定会提到，但实际上并没有。
- start: 340.599
  end: 343.539
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: But, but Rome does have a way of, of explaining that.
  zh: 不过，罗马公教会对此也有自己的解释方式。
- start: 343.539
  end: 348.639
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So what, what they say is, um, the difference is this is, first of all, it's an unbloody sacrifice.
  zh: 他们的说法是，首先，这是一种无血的祭献。
- start: 348.639
  end: 351.099
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, so that, that's a qualification there.
  zh: 这是一个限定条件。
- start: 351.099
  end: 358.879
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: But, but secondly it's a, it, it's not a re-sacrifice as in Christ isn't sacrificed again and again and again.
  zh: 其次，这并不是说基督一次又一次地被重新献上。
- start: 358.879
  end: 379.334
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, though if you do look at the middle ages, at least in, in terms of popular piety and what the reformers were speaking about, that certainly was the understanding of a lot of people, um, was that this was just a s- Christ sacrificed himself again and again and again on the altar.Um, but there are now ways of, of explaining that to basically say, "This is not a re-sacrifice.
  zh: 不过，如果你看中世纪时期，至少在民间信仰和宗教改革者的批评中，很多人确实认为基督是在祭坛上一次又一次地被献上。但现在有一些解释方式，强调这并不是重新献祭。
- start: 379.334
  end: 391.993
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It's a representation of the once-for-all sacrifice." So the sacrifice of Christ is represented on the altar at the Mass, so there is an unbloody propitiatory sacrifice that is identical with the once-for-all sacrifice.
  zh: 而是说，这是一种对基督一次成全的祭献的呈现。所以在弥撒的祭坛上，基督的祭献被呈现出来，是一种无血的赎罪祭献，与那一次成全的祭献是同一的。
- start: 391.993
  end: 403.873
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So that's the way of connecting that with Hebrews to make it more consistent with the argument of Hebrews, which is very clear that Christ was sacrificed once for all, so you can't have a re-sacrifice.
  zh: 这样就能把这个观点和《希伯来书》联系起来，使之与《希伯来书》强调基督只一次献上的论点更一致，也就不能再有重复的献祭。
- start: 403.873
  end: 424.334
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, now, I, I say that as just, kind of, a clever way of trying to fit, fit the pieces together in a way that's not explicitly contradictory to the Book of Hebrews, um, but, but I don't see th- that the whole argument of Hebrews would really work very well from a Roman Catholic understanding of sacrifice in general as a propitiatory sacrifice.
  zh: 我觉得这其实是一种巧妙的解释方式，试图让各个观点拼合起来，不至于和《希伯来书》直接矛盾，但我认为从罗马公教会把弥撒理解为赎罪祭献的角度来看，《希伯来书》的整体论证其实并不太适用。
- start: 424.334
  end: 426.293
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So, so that's the, the Roman view.
  zh: 这就是罗马公教会的观点。
- start: 426.293
  end: 433.594
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, what, what Martin Luther does in, in his, uh, early writings particularly, where he discusses the matter...
  zh: 那么，马丁·路德在他早期的著作中，特别是在讨论这个问题时……
- start: 433.594
  end: 437.653
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Be- because Luther's, uh, writings on the Lord's Supper are, kind of, in two phases.
  zh: 因为路德关于圣餐的著作大致可以分为两个阶段。
- start: 437.653
  end: 448.073
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So the, the earlier writings on the Lord's Supper are about the notion of Eucharistic sacrifice, very much o- opposed to the idea of sacrifice as it was expressed in the Middle Ages.
  zh: 他早期关于圣餐的著作主要是针对中世纪那种祭献观念，明确反对当时的祭献说法。
- start: 448.073
  end: 458.213
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The latter part of his writings are really more so against Zwingli and the Memorialists, those who deny that, that Christ's body and blood are actually present in the Sacrament.
  zh: 他后期的著作则主要是反对慈运理和纪念论者，也就是那些否认基督的身体和宝血真实临在圣餐中的人。
- start: 458.213
  end: 462.713
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, so Luther's polemical ideas, they, they...
  zh: 所以路德的论战重点也发生了变化……
- start: 462.713
  end: 469.354
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So his, his focus polemically shifts from Rome now to the, what we would call the, the Reformed or the Zwinglians.
  zh: 他的论战焦点从罗马公教会转向了我们现在所说的改革宗或慈运理派。
- start: 469.354
  end: 474.033
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So there is a difference in terms of the focus in his early and later writings.
  zh: 所以他早期和后期著作的关注点是不同的。
- start: 474.033
  end: 477.953
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So the earlier writings focus a lot more so on this notion of sacrifice.
  zh: 所以路德早期的著作更多关注祭献这个概念。
- start: 477.953
  end: 484.234
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, what Luther does, uh, in those early writings is he makes a distinction between a sacrifice and a sacrament.
  zh: 在那些早期著作中，路德做了一个区分：祭献和圣事是不同的。
- start: 484.234
  end: 492.093
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And f- for that distinction, what Luther basically says is, a sacrifice is something that we are offering to God.
  zh: 路德的基本观点是，祭献是我们向神献上的东西。
- start: 492.093
  end: 499.133
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: At least, uh, th- this, this is in the sense of how sacrifice is understood with, with the Eucharist, Eucharistic theology at least.
  zh: 至少在圣餐神学里，祭献就是这样被理解的。
- start: 499.133
  end: 500.513
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, and he says...
  zh: 他是这样说的……
- start: 500.513
  end: 503.293
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So the understanding of sacrifice is the priest offers.
  zh: 祭献的理解就是由祭司献上。
- start: 503.293
  end: 506.533
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So the direction is from the people to God.
  zh: 也就是说，方向是从人到神。
- start: 506.533
  end: 510.233
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: There is a sacrifice that is offered to God on behalf of the people.
  zh: 祭司代表众人向神献上祭物。
- start: 510.233
  end: 519.293
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And a sacrament is different, in that the sacrament is pure gift, so the direction is God to us, rather than us to God.
  zh: 而圣事则不同，圣事是神白白赐给我们的恩典，方向是神到我们，而不是我们到神。
- start: 519.293
  end: 526.594
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so for Luther, later when he's battling the, the Zwinglians, he would say in some sense it's the same.
  zh: 所以后来路德在与慈运理派争论时，他会说某种意义上这两者是一样的。
- start: 526.594
  end: 529.494
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The Zwinglians and the Roman Catholics are...
  zh: 慈运理派和罗马公教会……
- start: 529.494
  end: 534.993
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: have the same problem, in that the direction of Holy Communion is the people to God.
  zh: 他们有同样的问题，就是圣餐的方向是从人到神。
- start: 534.993
  end: 540.954
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so for, for Rome, it's the priest offering the sacrifice to God to appease the Father, um, for the sake of the people.
  zh: 在罗马公教会看来，是祭司为众人向天父献上祭物以求平息神的怒气。
- start: 540.954
  end: 551.973
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And for the Reformed perspective, or the more specifically Zwinglian perspective, it's, it's a memorial act of the people to God to remember what Christ, what Christ had done.
  zh: 而在改革宗，特别是慈运理派的观点中，圣餐是人向神献上的纪念行动，是为了记念基督所成就的事。
- start: 551.973
  end: 554.493
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So the direction is us to God.
  zh: 所以方向还是我们到神。
- start: 554.493
  end: 558.853
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: No- now Luther says this notion of a sacrament is the direction is God to us.
  zh: 但路德认为，圣事的方向应该是神到我们。
- start: 558.853
  end: 569.153
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So that's the main differentiation between then the Roman Catholic perspective and, and the Lutheran perspective of Eucharistic sacrifice is, is the sacrament.
  zh: 所以罗马公教会和路德宗在圣餐祭献上的主要区别就在于圣事的本质。
- start: 569.153
  end: 574.953
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: The most important and foundational element of it is that the direction is God to us, rather than us to God.
  zh: 最重要、最根本的区别就是方向是神到我们，而不是我们到神。
- start: 574.953
  end: 581.533
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Okay, so that's what differentiates Luther's view from both the Zwinglian and the Roman Catholic view of, of Holy Communion.
  zh: 这就是路德的观点与慈运理派和罗马公教会关于圣餐的不同之处。
- start: 581.533
  end: 585.153
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, with that being said, uh, the question then is do we, do we...
  zh: 说到这里，问题就变成了，我们到底……
- start: 585.153
  end: 589.273
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: What can we do then with the language of sacrifice?
  zh: 那我们该如何看待祭献的用语呢？
- start: 589.273
  end: 592.073
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Is there a proper place for the language of sacrifice?
  zh: 祭献的用语有没有合适的位置？
- start: 592.073
  end: 604.593
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Now, the language of sacrifice doesn't show up as much in Luther, but, but it's not totally absent in Luther, but it shows up more so in Melanchthon, and it shows up in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, you, you see language.
  zh: 其实在路德的著作里，祭献的用语并不多见，但也不是完全没有。反而在墨兰顿的著作和《奥斯堡信条辩护》中，这类用语出现得更多。
- start: 604.593
  end: 607.833
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So in our confessions, there is language of, of sacrifice.
  zh: 所以在我们的信条里，确实有祭献的用语。
- start: 607.833
  end: 617.653
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And I think when people think of a sacrifice of praise in communion, they often think more so of the Anglican tradition than the Lutheran, but there is a strong, uh, notion of that within Lutheran tradition as well.
  zh: 我觉得很多人一提到圣餐中的赞美祭，往往会想到英国圣公会传统，而不是路德宗，但其实在路德宗传统里也有很强烈的这种观念。
- start: 617.653
  end: 620.533
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so Melanchthon at different points...
  zh: 墨兰顿在不同的地方……
- start: 620.533
  end: 631.573
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And you can check out that article where I discuss this, but at different points in Melanchthon's writings he identifies different aspects of the Eucharistic service with sacrifice.
  zh: 你可以参考我那篇文章，我在里面讨论过，墨兰顿在他的著作中把圣餐礼仪的不同部分与祭献联系起来。
- start: 631.573
  end: 644.933
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And the difference though is the sacrifice is us offering ourselves to God in sacrifice, and so the direction is God to usward, and then we respond with thanksgiving.
  zh: 但不同之处在于，这里的祭献是我们把自己献给神，所以方向是神先赐给我们恩典，然后我们以感恩回应。
- start: 644.933
  end: 652.693
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So God gives us his grace in the Sacrament of Holy Communion as we receive the body and blood of Christ, we respond with thanksgiving.
  zh: 神在圣餐中赐下祂的恩典，我们领受基督的身体和宝血，然后以感恩回应。
- start: 652.693
  end: 659.513
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so there is an action that is ours in communion, but it's a response to God's action.
  zh: 所以在圣餐中我们确实有自己的行动，但那是对神作为的回应。
- start: 659.513
  end: 660.753
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: That's, that's the difference.
  zh: 这就是区别所在。
- start: 660.753
  end: 662.893
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And there...
  zh: 而且……
- start: 662.893
  end: 668.153
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: This does get into a lot of debates, uh, today in terms of Eucharistic, uh, liturgy.
  zh: 这在今天关于圣餐礼仪的讨论中引发了很多争议。
- start: 668.153
  end: 674.153
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I think there has been a, an overreaction on the part of, of some Lutherans.
  zh: 我认为有些路德宗信徒对此反应过度了。
- start: 674.153
  end: 680.373
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Especially we're talking about more of the radical Lutheran kind of notions that everything has to be passive.
  zh: 尤其是那些激进的路德宗观点，认为一切都必须是被动的。
- start: 680.373
  end: 682.293
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It's all about what God is doing for me.
  zh: 一切都只强调神为我所做的事。
- start: 682.293
  end: 689.293
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: We wanna downplay anything that is our activity at all, um, to the point that we're missing a lot.
  zh: 他们极力淡化我们自己的任何行动，结果反而错失了很多东西。
- start: 689.293
  end: 700.593
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I think that's probably pretty good and right, um, in that, you know, there, there are certain Lutherans that don't want, for example, a prayer of thanksgiving during Eucharistic service at all.
  zh: 有些路德宗信徒甚至不希望在圣餐礼仪中有感恩祷告，我觉得这种做法其实有问题。
- start: 700.593
  end: 708.053
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, they don't want any kind of, you know, uh, enemetic prayer or, uh, nothing that...
  zh: 他们不希望有任何祈求性的祷告，什么都不要……
- start: 708.053
  end: 732.353
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Th- th- they basically want the whole Eucharistic service to be just the words of institution in this "for you" proclamatory sense, and the pastor cannot be facing the altar, but must be facing the people, because everything is gift and it's, "This is my body given for you" proclaimed to the people in this proclamatory kind of prophetic mode.
  zh: 他们基本上希望整个圣餐礼仪只剩下设立圣餐的话语——「为你们舍的」这种宣告式的内容，牧师不能面向祭坛，只能面向会众，因为一切都是恩典，是「这是为你们舍的我的身体」这种宣告和先知式的表达。
- start: 732.353
  end: 735.513
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Anything priestly or sacrificial is just taken out totally.
  zh: 所有祭司性或祭献性的内容都被完全去除了。
- start: 735.513
  end: 751.095
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, I think that's, that's very much mistaken.And I think foundationally, yes, it is this idea of sacrament, God giving to us the body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, but there is this response of praise and thanksgiving.
  zh: 我认为这种做法是错误的。根本上来说，圣餐确实是神赐给我们基督的身体和宝血，使我们的罪得赦免，但我们也应该以赞美和感恩来回应。
- start: 751.095
  end: 765.295
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: You know, some people say, "Well, you save the thanksgiving stuff until after the ser- the- the sacramental element of the service is over," and I- I don't think there's ever a time where we shouldn't be offering sacrifices of praise to God.
  zh: 有些人说，「感恩的内容应该等到圣餐礼仪结束后再进行」，但我认为我们任何时候都应该向神献上赞美的祭。
- start: 765.295
  end: 776.396
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, it is truly good, right, and salutary that at all times and in all places we offer thanks to you, and certainly within the- the early Christian liturgy, and that's always been the Christian understanding.
  zh: 在任何时候、任何地方向神献上感恩，都是美好、正确、有益的，这也是早期基督教礼仪和基督徒一贯的理解。
- start: 776.396
  end: 779.495
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: There's never a time when it's inappropriate to offer our thanks to God.
  zh: 没有任何时候是不适合向神献上感恩的。
- start: 779.495
  end: 783.155
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Uh, a- and even as God is giving his gifts to us.
  zh: 即使在神赐下恩典的时候也是如此。
- start: 783.155
  end: 792.176
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So Melanchthon himself even mentions the putting, uh, the- the receiving of the- the host in our mouths as an act of thanksgiving.
  zh: 墨兰顿甚至提到，把圣餐饼放进我们口中本身就是一种感恩的行动。
- start: 792.176
  end: 795.336
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so he certainly doesn't divorce those two things.
  zh: 所以他绝不会把这两者分开。
- start: 795.336
  end: 796.615
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So at the same...
  zh: 所以在同一时刻……
- start: 796.615
  end: 798.375
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: They're- they're both happening at the same time.
  zh: 这两件事是同时发生的。
- start: 798.375
  end: 805.675
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: There is this continual giving of God's gifts to us, and this continual overflowing of our hearts and offering of ourselves to God in thanksgiving.
  zh: 神不断地把恩典赐给我们，我们的心也不断地涌出感恩，把自己献给神。
- start: 805.675
  end: 809.095
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So these are going on all at- at exactly the same time.
  zh: 这两者是完全同时进行的。
- start: 809.095
  end: 813.675
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, so, uh, yeah, I- I don't like those...
  zh: 所以，我并不认同那些……
- start: 813.675
  end: 819.295
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I- I don't think we need to get rid of anything that's sacrificial at all i- in the communion service.
  zh: 我认为我们完全没有必要在圣餐礼仪中把所有祭献性的内容都去掉。
- start: 819.295
  end: 832.195
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I mean, there's even a sense in- in that there is a sacrifice in that the benefits of Christ, i- in terms of propitiatory sacrifice, we are receiving the benefits of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice in the Eucharist too.
  zh: 我的意思是，从某种意义上说，圣餐里也有祭献的成分，因为我们在圣餐中领受了基督赎罪祭献的益处。
- start: 832.195
  end: 853.895
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It doesn't mean that there's a- that the sacrifice is re-offered or represented or- or anything like that, b- but there's even a sense in which, and I think this is what a lot of the Fathers are getting at with this kind of language is, it was that propitiatory sacrifice, that same Christ is given to us, and the benefits of that sacrifice are delivered.
  zh: 这并不是说祭献被重新献上或再现了，而是说，正如许多教父用这种语言所表达的，是那一次赎罪的祭献、同一位基督被赐给我们，我们领受了那次祭献的益处。
- start: 853.895
  end: 858.195
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so I think they're speaking sometimes of sacrifice in that sense.
  zh: 所以我认为，他们有时所说的祭献就是这个意思。
- start: 858.195
  end: 862.715
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And so, uh, again, the difference is it's not the priest offering this to the Father.
  zh: 所以，区别在于，这并不是祭司把祭献献给天父。
- start: 862.715
  end: 867.755
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It's all God giving to us, but there still is a kind of sacrificial language there.
  zh: 一切都是神赐给我们的，但这里依然存在某种祭献的用语。
- start: 867.755
  end: 880.975
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: It's the benefits of that once-for-all sacrifice that are given to us, uh, in- in Holy Communion, which is clear in just the- the language of the words of institution, uh, "Given for you for the forgiveness of sins," that we remember every, uh, Holy Communion service.
  zh: 在圣餐中，我们领受的是那一次成全的祭献的益处，这在设立圣餐的话语里很清楚——「为你们舍的，为赦免你们的罪」——我们每次圣餐礼都在纪念这点。
- start: 880.975
  end: 884.675
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So it's a complicated issue when you look at the history of Lutheranism.
  zh: 所以，从路德宗的历史来看，这是一个很复杂的问题。
- start: 884.675
  end: 895.035
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, it's also complicated in- in that Luther does strip a lot of the communion service, um, to focus on those kind of Gospel proclamatory elements.
  zh: 另外，事情还复杂在于，路德确实删减了圣餐礼仪中的许多内容，把重点放在福音宣告的部分。
- start: 895.035
  end: 901.975
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: He wants to really excise the- the language of propitiatory sacrifice and the way that it was understood in the Middle Ages.
  zh: 他确实想要彻底去除中世纪那种赎罪祭献的用语和理解方式。
- start: 901.975
  end: 904.515
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, so because of that, he simplifies a lot of that.
  zh: 因此，他对圣餐礼仪做了很多简化。
- start: 904.515
  end: 919.555
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Within the 20th century, there was this kind of liturgical renewal, um, that recurred, well, within Anglicanism too, but also, but within Lutheranism, um, where we kind of brought back a lot of those, the- the- the prayers and different elements, um, of the communion service.
  zh: 到了二十世纪，出现了一种礼仪更新运动，不仅在英国圣公会，也在路德宗里，人们又把许多祷告和圣餐礼仪的不同元素带了回来。
- start: 919.555
  end: 920.495
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: And I think rightly so.
  zh: 我认为这样做是对的。
- start: 920.495
  end: 921.175
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I think it's good.
  zh: 我觉得这是好事。
- start: 921.175
  end: 926.535
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: I understand why Luther took them out, and I think in- in contextually, there's good reason for it.
  zh: 我理解路德当时为什么要删去这些内容，从当时的背景来看，这样做是有道理的。
- start: 926.535
  end: 934.475
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: Um, but I think it also is good to bring some of that- some of that back as long as it's done carefully, and- and done well.
  zh: 但我也认为，只要做得谨慎、得当，把其中一些内容重新带回来也是好的。
- start: 934.475
  end: 949.995
  speaker: speaker_0
  en: So like I said, complicated issue, and even within Rome, there are differences of understanding in terms of all of the particulars of Eucharistic sacrifice, but hopefully that gives you a little bit- bit of a taste of some of the differences between Rome and- and the Lutheran tradition on- on Eucharistic sacrifice.
  zh: 所以，正如我说的，这是一个复杂的问题，即使在罗马公教会内部，对圣餐祭献的具体细节也有不同的理解。但希望这些内容能让你大致了解罗马公教会和路德宗在圣餐祭献上的一些差异。
